Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Entreri1000 03-09-07, 06:50 PM	I see some people saying, he is only 16th level. You forget that he defeated a balor by himself, he was outfighting a marlith (thus he is as fast as any fighter alive, may be as skilled). Zakanfein, 24 th level fighter was defeated by Drizzt. Zak also said he was better than him. Zakanfein Sincarla of course 'defeated' Drizzt. Other drow with higher levels (18) was defeated and killed by Drizzt. Most thought Uthengual(sp?) at 22 levels would be defeated by Drizzt. Drizzt was never defeated in Mezoberrean, and very likely the best fighter the city had ever seen. Drizzt only "loss" was to Obould, because his weapons could not penetrate the armor. But in their last fight they were a draw, although you know if the fight continued Drizzt would have won. Drizzt can defeat any 20th level said fighter, paladin etc, I would say up to level 25. Now if this said fighter was 30th level, no way, Drizzt would get owned.
Stigger 03-09-07, 07:15 PM	As good as RAS chooses to make him seems a good starting point... ;)
GothicDan 03-09-07, 09:52 PM	Please do not use novel actions to try to reflect game stats - ESPECIALLY for nonspellcasters, since there's no remotely 'easy' benchmarks to determine abilities (unlike spell levels for spellcasters; if someone casts a fireball, it's clear that they're at least a 5th level Wizard or whatnot). It's a futile effort. By RAW, he is ONLY a ECL 20 character.
Boda 03-09-07, 10:04 PM	He is 16th level in FRCS, that maybe outdated. He didnt defeat so much the balor as susprised him with icing death. Any fighter alive is a very broad statement. Paladin have magic, not only fighting capabilities. Have you read the final battle between oboud and drizzt? If the drow priesttress didnt intervene, obould had drizzt(by is own admission) dead. He beat zak, ok zak has a good fighter, but dantrag and uthengental?! one was a fair fighter with a magical speed advantage, and the other was a brainless brute that tought that just because he was the stronghtest drow around that make it something special( gutbusters prove otherwise).
creyzi4zb12 03-09-07, 10:23 PM	Obould kicked Drizzt's ass two times in a row. His armor has also a very big disadvantage because it is very heavy and makes his movements slow. Plus Drizzt has tons of advantages if you compare them to Obould, he has a bracer which increases his movement, he has Khazidea which neutralizes the armor of Obould, he had a crossbow plus the element of surprise in him. Even with so much disadvantage Obould had from the heavy armor (which was already no use), he was still able to bring the advantage to himself by that "All Or Nothing" move he pulled out in Two Swords In the last part of the Two Swords Obould had Drizzt oawned if Kaerlic hadn't interrupted.
Khaelieth 03-09-07, 10:29 PM	Do not forget that Drizzt is a god with several player followers. But no, I prefer to think of Drizzt as a good swordsman, not as überhuman. In fact, I just never really pay attention to him.
The_Shaman 03-09-07, 10:52 PM	With high-level warriors, sometimes the stats aren't fully accurate. Perhaps a lower-level warrior will just be lucky (crit several times, dodge several blows) and defeat a superior opponent. Either that or you could consider the FRCS stats more or less guidelines. The DM is free to buff or nerf any iconic NPC, I suppose, and the stats themselves change from book to book. When I saw Obould in FRCS, I was left absolutely unimpressed, yet here people swear by him. Compared to that, +/- 2 levels are probably fully acceptable. Changing feats or abilities to a degree (afaik Drizzt with all his fighter levels doesn't even have oversized TWF, and he's dual-wielding scimitars) should be a-okay, too.
Zevox 03-10-07, 12:22 AM	I see some people saying, he is only 16th level. You forget that he defeated a balor by himself, he was outfighting a marlith (thus he is as fast as any fighter alive, may be as skilled). Zakanfein, 24 th level fighter was defeated by Drizzt. Zak also said he was better than him. Zakanfein Sincarla of course 'defeated' Drizzt. Other drow with higher levels (18) was defeated and killed by Drizzt. Most thought Uthengual(sp?) at 22 levels would be defeated by Drizzt. Drizzt was never defeated in Mezoberrean, and very likely the best fighter the city had ever seen. Drizzt only "loss" was to Obould, because his weapons could not penetrate the armor. But in their last fight they were a draw, although you know if the fight continued Drizzt would have won. Drizzt can defeat any 20th level said fighter, paladin etc, I would say up to level 25. Now if this said fighter was 30th level, no way, Drizzt would get owned. RAS has never made stats for Drizzt, nor does his write his novels with any regard for game rules. He writes them with regard for what he feels Drizzt and his foes are capable of - not within the context of a game, but within the context of the world his adventures take place in. Often those don't mesh with the stats given by WotC (those have Drizzt as a Fighter 10/Barbarian 1/Ranger 5, thus ECL 18 with the Drow LA+2). Thats simply how it is. You can restat him to reflect what you feel he should be if you wish, but they won't change his official ones. Personally, I just ignore the stats WotC gave him and don't bother giving him new ones, since I'll never use him in my games. I don't care if he has stats, I care if I enjoy reading his novels, and so far I do, so I'm happy with him. Zevox
MarkusTay63 03-10-07, 08:46 AM	Another "Drizzt Pwns" thread... oh goody... :rolleye2: Actually, fighters are the most believable in novels... and the most explainable in RAW. A level 16 fighter CAN beat a level 24 fighter, if the lev 16 rolls very well (several 20's) and the level 24 makes a few bad ones (a few 1's). Add in that the lower lev fighter could also roll maximum damage every time and the other roll minimum damage, off-setting the number of hits considerably. I've seen this happen plenty of times in-game, where someone who had next to no chance of winning got amazingly lucky.
Entreri1000 03-10-07, 08:14 PM	Obould had Drizzt beat twice? Someones memory is a little foggy. Obould with the gift of speed, strength and dexterity from Grummesh could not defeat Drizzt. Those bracers of Drizzts are on the ankles, he is all natural. Now imagine if Drizzt got those gifts from a god, he would be easily the best fighter in Toril then. In their second and final fight, they were going toe to toe, and there was no mention in Drizzt PoV of him losing, only that Obould was as good as Entreri. If the fight continued, Drizzt would have won because RAS is the one writing it. Drizzt is an uber swordsman, not just a good one. A good swordsman would be Riven (Erevis Cale trilogy). Balor, sure it was luck. But he did defeat a balor. And he was going toe to toe with marlith, and I have no doubt he can defeat an average marilith one on one. Drow have magic resistance, under 2 edition rules, and 25th level Drow had 100% magic resistance. The Driow make excellent mage killers.
folletrap 03-10-07, 08:46 PM	Please...answer to the post without spoiler about books...even if the "match" Drizzt Vs. Obould is old matter for you it doesn't mean it's the same for all... thanks (and sorry if i could seem angry, i'm not...really)
creyzi4zb12 03-10-07, 09:12 PM	Drizzt pawns. But Obould did defeat Drizzt. To me he beat him 2 times a row. TO you one time only and the other was a tie, and Drizzt wouldn't have killed Obould if Kaerlic interrupted (u seem to underestimate Obould, even the Harper Alustriel is scared of him) To sum it all up, Drizzt never won a single match against Obould. Making Obould the better one in the fight. -Plus he didn't even use his fireball spitting crown on Drizzt yet. BTW: Entreri is nothing compared to Obould. Drizzt beat the sucker without using Hunter mode. While Obould, well he couldn't win with his Hunter ability on.
GothicDan 03-11-07, 01:43 PM	Hey, crazi... How about those non-Obould characters? ;) And, again, Alustriel is NOT afraid of him. The very idea is laughable. It just doesn't happen in the Realms. Even the highest level, most influential non-arcane casters are terrified by powerful spellcasters.
The_Shaman 03-11-07, 02:36 PM	\ Balor, sure it was luck. But he did defeat a balor. And he was going toe to toe with marlith, and I have no doubt he can defeat an average marilith one on one. Drow have magic resistance, under 2 edition rules, and 25th level Drow had 100% magic resistance. The Driow make excellent mage killers. An "average" marilith is not exactly a pushover, mind you. He could defeat it, but I'm not really betting on it. Also, iirc in 2nd edition drow lost their resistance to magic and most spell-likes if they spen time above ground. So at least in 3.x Drizzt could keep some of his drow powers - IIRC the initial trilogy suggested that he was losing everything except darkness and fairy fire (he could use levitate at first, too).
theartistformerlyknownas 03-11-07, 03:43 PM	Drizzt wins because of plot device. Period. As Todd Lockwood once put it when he illustrated the cover to "1000 Orcs" -- It is hard to imagine how Drizzt got out of that predicament, I know. But clearly, he has a contract. I imagine the orcs all stopping their assault dejectedly, looking at each other, then enthusiastically shouting, “to the neighbors!” He's a fictional character. If RAS suddenly decided that Drizzt could use Elven High Magic, then you would be claiming that he was the greatest mage to ever walk Faerun, better than the Simbul, yadda yadda. These kind of threads really make me wish that Drizzt belonged to Greyhawk. Ed has listed the best fighters in the Realms and the quote has been posted in the forums numerous times, (Entreri and Drizzt, who are clearly defined as equal by both RAS and Greenwood) were placed somewhere 8th-14th.
Entreri1000 03-11-07, 06:54 PM	Well, Obould had too many unfair advantages: Impenetrable armor, and gifts from the Gods. Once Obould minus armor only 'equaled' Drizzt. Entreri at one time 'equaled' Drizzt. But the only time they actually fought to the 'death' Drizzt won. If Drizzt and Obould would have a similar match Drizzt would win for same reason: Drizzt is the hero and $$$ maker. Anyway Entreri is still great, recently beating a 20th level character. As for spellcasters, they are most powerful. If the Drow kept their amazing magic resistance, at least in the Underdark they would have a good time killing spellcasters. Alustriel being afraid of Obould is laughable, not only in terms of level wise, but her powers are far greater, she should be able to defeat any fighter type character. I believe Ed put one of Alustriels sons as #3 on that list, and he is only level 15th. I really do not see how he can be better someone like Drizzt, IMO. If Drizzt can outpace a 6 arm Marilith! You really cannot get faster without using potions, and unless at a much higher level...And Drizzt appears to be skillful as any.
Khaelieth 03-11-07, 07:58 PM	Well, Obould had too many unfair advantages: Impenetrable armor, and gifts from the Gods. Once Obould minus armor only 'equaled' Drizzt. Entreri at one time 'equaled' Drizzt. But the only time they actually fought to the 'death' Drizzt won. If Drizzt and Obould would have a similar match Drizzt would win for same reason: Drizzt is the hero and $$$ maker. Anyway Entreri is still great, recently beating a 20th level character. As for spellcasters, they are most powerful. If the Drow kept their amazing magic resistance, at least in the Underdark they would have a good time killing spellcasters. Alustriel being afraid of Obould is laughable, not only in terms of level wise, but her powers are far greater, she should be able to defeat any fighter type character. I believe Ed put one of Alustriels sons as #3 on that list, and he is only level 15th. I really do not see how he can be better someone like Drizzt, IMO. If Drizzt can outpace a 6 arm Marilith! You really cannot get faster without using potions, and unless at a much higher level...And Drizzt appears to be skillful as any. Alustriel is obviously afraid of Obould. All he needs is one dagger through her ribs.
GothicDan 03-11-07, 08:01 PM	And by the same token, all he needs is one fireball to the face. GETTING to those situations is what matters: it's much harder for Obould to get through hundreds of guards, many of which wield magic more powerful than any of his shamans; getting through the Mythal; through Foresight, Illusions, Greater Blink, Skittish Nerves, Contingency, Wall of Force, etc.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-11-07, 08:09 PM	I see some people saying, he is only 16th level. You forget that he defeated a balor by himself, he was outfighting a marlith (thus he is as fast as any fighter alive, may be as skilled). Zakanfein, 24 th level fighter was defeated by Drizzt. Zak also said he was better than him. Zakanfein Sincarla of course 'defeated' Drizzt. Other drow with higher levels (18) was defeated and killed by Drizzt. Most thought Uthengual(sp?) at 22 levels would be defeated by Drizzt. Drizzt was never defeated in Mezoberrean, and very likely the best fighter the city had ever seen. Drizzt only "loss" was to Obould, because his weapons could not penetrate the armor. But in their last fight they were a draw, although you know if the fight continued Drizzt would have won. Drizzt can defeat any 20th level said fighter, paladin etc, I would say up to level 25. Now if this said fighter was 30th level, no way, Drizzt would get owned. Remember Zakanfein loved his son. It very likely that Zak held back to allow Drizzt to kill him. SO did he really defeat a 24 level pure Fighter. I doubt it!
creyzi4zb12 03-11-07, 11:46 PM	And by the same token, all he needs is one fireball to the face. GETTING to those situations is what matters: it's much harder for Obould to get through hundreds of guards, many of which wield magic more powerful than any of his shamans; getting through the Mythal; through Foresight, Illusions, Greater Blink, Skittish Nerves, Contingency, Wall of Force, etc. Obould has been hit by fireball in the book once, that was byShoudra (Nanfoodle's chick), and it didn't do anything to him. I'm guessing he's immune to fireballs. There are lots of spellcasters who can spit fireball to his face that are afraid of him.Kaerlic, Nanfoodle's fireball spittingchick and Gertti were spellcasters, and Obould pawned them as easy as hell. Gerrti is afraid of Obould, Nanfoodle s chick WHO USED HER FIREBALLS IN OBOULD got pawned. comeon!!Gerrtui, SHe's a frost giant with magical capabilities. If they are afraid of him I don't see a reason why Alustriel wouldn't be scared of him. Plus Obould can also spit fireballs with his crown.
GothicDan 03-11-07, 11:54 PM	If they are afraid of him I don't see a reason why Alustriel wouldn't be scared of him. Because Alustriel is about twice as powerful as all of the above listed people, including Obould, and about 5 times as old and experienced? Tell me... Outside of what you read from the RAS novels, do you know anything about Alustriel or the Seven Sisters? They are literally daughters of the most powerful deity in the Realms (or second most powerful, depending on who you're asking).
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 12:42 AM	-Yeah...Woo hoo...Drizzt...Woo...RAS...wooo...eh... -Drizzt is only a 16th level character. Case closed...
creyzi4zb12 03-12-07, 01:07 AM	Alustriel used to suck at Elminster in Hell. To me, she isn't really as powerful as others think she is. She did not follow her uncle's advice to marry that guy who worships Bane and ran off to be a harper. Plus she is little powerful compared to the Seven Sisters. Obould = now there's a guy you can be proud off.
Stigger 03-12-07, 01:24 AM	You do realize that scene with Alustriel was happening at the very least 650 years before Obould was even a gleam in a tusker's eye, much less born, right?
Zevox 03-12-07, 02:03 AM	Alustriel used to suck at Elminster in Hell. To me, she isn't really as powerful as others think she is. Um, the scene from Elminster in Hell was hundreds of years ago, before she had so much as a fraction of her current abilities. Before she was even Chosen, if memory serves. She did not follow her uncle's advice to marry that guy who worships Bane and ran off to be a harper. Um, and thats a bad thing how? Plus she is little powerful compared to the Seven Sisters. Um, she is one of the Seven Sisters. And at the very least by the stats, the only one of the others more powerful in magic than her is The Simbul. Come now, Alustriel was responsible for laying the Mythal at Silverymoon. You don't get to do that without a lot more power at your fingertips than Obould can even conceive of. Obould = now there's a guy you can be proud off. Proud of? Him? Half of me is curious how you could possibly say that, the other half is afraid to ask. *shakes head* Zevox
creyzi4zb12 03-12-07, 03:33 AM	Alustriel would pawn Drizzt Jarlaxle already pawned him Obould has also pawned him Drizzt aint so tough as you think he is. The only way he's been winning is thru luck...or it's because Lloth is in favor of him.
Stigger 03-12-07, 03:41 AM	Llolth holding Drizzt in favor? You're really loosing it there Creyzi... so much so I don't think any amount of explaining would help... considering last I checked she really wanted him very much dead.
creyzi4zb12 03-12-07, 04:19 AM	-Aaaah!! That's where you are wrong my friend... :) . Salvatore says that in the next book "The Orc King" there will be angry drows coming in the story. Lloth still has uses for Drizzt right now. Although it's still unknown, I think it will appear in the next book, what Lloth's plans are. That's why she watches over him....That's why she favors him. It -Lloth did not kill Drizzt. She knew Errtu would jeopardize her plans and kill Matron Baenre...SHe sacrificed Matron Baenre and let Drizzt live to rebuild Menzo. Plus it was mentioned by the drows in "Lone Drow" that "Lloth favored Drizzt" even tho' Drizzt doesn't worship her and hated her. I know Drizzt worships Mielekki instead of her. BUt the drow.."Was it Kaerlic or Tos-Un" I forgot, said a line that Lloth was in favor of Drizzt. Alustriel building Mythal's by her own!! Superb lady!!
Arbourean 03-12-07, 04:35 AM	Drizzt is too insignicant for Lolth to waste any of her attention, much less her divine power, on. I like Drizzt, but was rather pleased to see him face defeat by Obould. It's gets rather tiresome seeing every RAS hero take on hordes of drow and orcs and come out relatively unscathed.
creyzi4zb12 03-12-07, 04:49 AM	But it was mentioned in "Lone Drow" that Lloth was in favor of Drizzt. I dunno how to conclude that, I'm just gonna wait for the next book to come and what Lloth's plans are.
Duagloth 03-12-07, 07:17 AM	Just because a drow guesses that drizzt could be in favor, doesnt mean its a fact.
Stigger 03-12-07, 08:12 AM	Makes for a good excuse as to why he keeps handing them their heads... he keeps kicking us back to the underdark, so he must have Llolth's favor if he wishes to have any chance of doing that. Sounds more like arrogance and pride over honest assessment to me...
creyzi4zb12 03-12-07, 08:19 AM	No, it was not a guess...It was more of a statement. That's why they try to stay away from him, because they are afraid to face the fury of Lloth. Mielleki, well she hasn't done anything good for the past four trilogies.
Stigger 03-12-07, 08:22 AM	I can make all the statements I want, doesn't make them true necessarily, particularly where a deity is concerned. ;)
creyzi4zb12 03-12-07, 09:13 AM	There was a news I heard that Drizzt was soon going to be part of reshaping Faerun's history....at least it's not now.. How uber can u get if u do that?
Zevox 03-12-07, 09:21 AM	Alustriel would pawn Drizzt Jarlaxle already pawned him Obould has also pawned him Alustriel is one of the world's more powerful Archmages and a Chosen of Mystra - of course her power dwarfs Drizzt's. Her power dwarfs any warrior-type's. Jarlaxle and Drizzt have never actually fought, unless my memory is faulty. And Obould has fought Drizzt twice, both with no decisive conclusion, and only actually gaining the upper hand in a manner other than just with his armor once. Thats hardly evidence he is a vastly superior warrior to Drizzt. Drizzt aint so tough as you think he is. The only way he's been winning is thru luck...or it's because Lloth is in favor of him. :rofl: You actually believe that piece of wild speculation of Kaerlic's (which she never tried to confirm with prayers to Lolth, I might add)? Come on now, while a cute idea, its flatly ridiculous, and totally out of line with Lolth's plans and desires. Shes chaotic, but not so chaotic she'd overlook all of Drizzt's idealism just because he manages to cause chaos when he gets into large-scale battles. Not to mention that Mielikki is Drizzt's patron, and given shes shown signs of favoring Drizzt in the past (meeting with a Unicorn ring any bells?), I doubt she'd let Lolth directly meddle in Drizzt's life. -Lloth did not kill Drizzt. She knew Errtu would jeopardize her plans and kill Matron Baenre...SHe sacrificed Matron Baenre and let Drizzt live to rebuild Menzo. Ugh, come one now, contrary to what the Drow may believe, Lolth doesn't control everything that happens on Toril. Short of going there herself, she can't directly control whether Drizzt lives or dies. Matron Baenre however we know was in her highest favor, so saying Lolth let her die is utterly ridiculous. It was Ertuu's sabotage with that dead magic zone item that caused her death - nothing more, nothing less. No, it was not a guess...It was more of a statement. That's why they try to stay away from him, because they are afraid to face the fury of Lloth. Creyzi, yes, it was a pure guess by Kaerlic. She had no evidence save conjecture, and even Toss'un thought it was ridiculous theory. Even if, by some crazy chance, she were right, the rest of the Drow have never even considered the idea (I suspect it would probably be seen as rather heretical), so theres no way you can claim its why they're afraid of Drizzt. They're afraid of him because hes proven lethally effective at killing those who do go after him, plain and simple. Zevox
Tarus 03-12-07, 09:29 AM	I can't remember if Jarlaxle and Drizzt ever fought, though I am rather confident that Jarlaxle would win. I hear mention of "obould has this armor" or "drizzt has that weapon". Jarlaxle isn't a powerful person because of his pure skill, while he is skilled he's far from the best. What makes him great is his mind and foresight. He surrounded himself with tons of magic, friends, and always has a way out. Simply put, he would never fight Drizzt unless he knew he could win and if Drizzt instigated the fight he would have a way out. As Captain Jack Sparrow said...there is only what a man can do and what a man can't do.
creyzi4zb12 03-12-07, 11:44 AM	Lloth foresaw that Errtu would jeopardize Matron Baenre's plans. She told that to Errtu herself when the drow lost at Mithril Hall She let Errtu have her way, and she I believe she mentioned something about Matron Baenre being incapable. -And why does everybody keep blaming Obould's armor? Don't blame the weapon if u loose. The main point is that he lost without any magic included in the fight by running away (forfeit match). Creyzi, yes, it was a pure guess by Kaerlic. She had no evidence save conjecture, and even Toss'un thought it was ridiculous theory. Even if, by some crazy chance, she were right, the rest of the Drow have never even considered the idea (I suspect it would probably be seen as rather heretical), so theres no way you can claim its why they're afraid of Drizzt. They're afraid of him because hes proven lethally effective at killing those who do go after him, plain and simple. Zevox Yeah...same as the unicorn sign.
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 11:50 AM	Drizzt is more important than Matron Baenre to Lloth. -No, that is incorrect. The Matron of the Baenre at the time was the leader of the most powerful, and orthodox city of Lolthites. Lolth herself wandered the city during the ToT. -And why do u keep blaming Obould's armor? -I agree. While Obould had magical items, so did Drizzt.
creyzi4zb12 03-12-07, 11:53 AM	-No, that is incorrect. The Matron of the Baenre at the time was the leader of the most powerful, and orthodox city of Lolthites. Lolth herself wandered the city during the ToT. I just changed the post the same time u posted -I agree. While Obould had magical items, so did Drizzt. Yeah..It's like you're saying that Entreri lost to Drizzt coz his weapon was shorter. :P
creyzi4zb12 03-12-07, 11:53 AM	Edited
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 02:21 PM	Yeah..It's like you're saying that Entreri lost to Drizzt coz his weapon was shorter. :P -I was talking about Obould and Drizzt.
Av4tar 03-12-07, 02:33 PM	RAS has never made stats for Drizzt, nor does his write his novels with any regard for game rules. He writes them with regard for what he feels Drizzt and his foes are capable of - not within the context of a game, but within the context of the world his adventures take place in. Often those don't mesh with the stats given by WotC (those have Drizzt as a Fighter 10/Barbarian 1/Ranger 5, thus ECL 18 with the Drow LA+2). Thats simply how it is. You can restat him to reflect what you feel he should be if you wish, but they won't change his official ones. Personally, I just ignore the stats WotC gave him and don't bother giving him new ones, since I'll never use him in my games. I don't care if he has stats, I care if I enjoy reading his novels, and so far I do, so I'm happy with him. Zevox Personally, I must agree with you. Whenever Drizzt would fight, it's RAS' will to decide that he will win or lose (I hope that he win, or at least survive). Anyway, Drizzt, by a far advantage, is the most rentable and $$$-maker character in all Wizards of the Coast history. :P
Khaelieth 03-12-07, 02:59 PM	And you only need a single hit to kill any humanoid (roughly). If it's a goblin or a balor, Drizzt is just as dead if one of them fires a crossbow bolt into his head. Remember, D&D rules are faaaaaaar from reality when it comes to damage.
Bonzai 03-12-07, 06:54 PM	Believe it or not... I think Entreri could take Obould. He never took Drizzt in a straight fight, because that was exactly what it was, a straight fight. For some reason Entreri always feels compelled to fight Drizzt in a fair duel. Entreri is an assasin. Fair isn't normally in his vocabulary. Fighting Obould, he would more than likley have none of those hang ups. Obould would never see him coming, until it was too late. Entreri is also likley to have made more progress than Drizzt recently as well. Not only does he now seem to have a partial shade template, but he also has had several very high lvl encounters. With Jarlaxal continuing to get him in trouble, he should be lvling consistantly. Drizzt on the other hand has had only a few encounters that should have netted him some xp in the last few novels.
Khaelieth 03-12-07, 07:29 PM	Believe it or not... I think Entreri could take Obould. He never took Drizzt in a straight fight, because that was exactly what it was, a straight fight. For some reason Entreri always feels compelled to fight Drizzt in a fair duel. Entreri is an assasin. Fair isn't normally in his vocabulary. Fighting Obould, he would more than likley have none of those hang ups. Obould would never see him coming, until it was too late. Entreri is also likley to have made more progress than Drizzt recently as well. Not only does he now seem to have a partial shade template, but he also has had several very high lvl encounters. With Jarlaxal continuing to get him in trouble, he should be lvling consistantly. Drizzt on the other hand has had only a few encounters that should have netted him some xp in the last few novels. But in reality, as the books are supposed to be, Artemis doesn't hear a ding! and levels up once in a while. Besides, I don't think Drizzt is a very interesting character, Artemis far outdoing him in complexity.
The_Shaman 03-12-07, 08:19 PM	Really? I only read the original trilogy (where Entreri isn't presented) and parts of the one where Wulfgar had his fateful encounter with the Yochlol (where Entreri was present, but wasn't detailed in full complexity. I'd say neither is entirely static, and within the course of the books Drizzt probably changed more. These four might be an exception, though.
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 09:03 PM	Drizzt on the other hand has had only a few encounters that should have netted him some xp in the last few novels. -Heh, at the point that he's at, Drizzt doesn't even get EXP for killing Orcs anymore. A Thousand Orcs, dead, and not an EXP to show for it...Bummer.
Stigger 03-13-07, 01:00 AM	Well if they were advanced orcs, he might get some then...
theartistformerlyknownas 03-13-07, 03:00 AM	-Heh, at the point that he's at, Drizzt doesn't even get EXP for killing Orcs anymore. A Thousand Orcs, dead, and not an EXP to show for it...Bummer. Ah, but the CR increases by 1 for every additional opponent, so he faced a 500 ECL... Creyzi's right! Drizzt is 1337 ha><><0|2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111!!!!!!!! !11!!!!1!11! Drizzt's levels might not be accurate, but according to lore, he's not the best swordsman (or fighter) in the Realms by far. He might be one of the luckiest, but he's certainly not the best. That's all I got.
Critalondel 03-13-07, 04:32 AM	This is the coolest thread ever.
creyzi4zb12 03-13-07, 09:28 AM	The biggest dude who has ever had the biggest reputation in Drizzt Legend is Obould. Entreri = He's an assassin and a mercenary for hire....he should be ashamed of his job :P Drizzt = He's a freeloader in Mithril Hall :P . He's a freeloader in Silvermoon. He's a freeloader in that ship that hunts pirates...He's a freeloader!! Obould = Comeon!! He's a king with tons of responsibilities for his citizens. I remember him saying something like, "For the light of the orcs, that long ago the elves, humans and dwarves have taken. There is no good or evil in war. But there are freeloaders and kings. :P
Critalondel 03-13-07, 09:37 AM	I see some people saying, he is only 16th level. Yeah, well. Too bad for you those "some people" are the game developers, huh?
Lord Karsus 03-13-07, 10:38 AM	Ah, but the CR increases by 1 for every additional opponent, so he faced a 500 ECL... -Really? I never knew that...Looks like I've been short-changing my PCs. :embarrass This is the coolest thread ever. -Not by far: This is the Coolest Thread Ever (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605219) Yeah, well. Too bad for you those "some people" are the game developers, huh? :rofl:
Stigger 03-13-07, 04:52 PM	Creyzi... if you ever find yourself on a throne, I weep for you. With assessments of character like that, you'll soon have a dagger in your back...
rolig 03-13-07, 05:28 PM	heees like Neutral Good:D Nah... anyways... as many other say... i would not use him. Remember PC's should be the main characters;)
Arbourean 03-13-07, 07:53 PM	Lolth wanted Matron Baenre to die to foment chaos among the drow in Menzoberranzan, as her millenia long reign had brought predictability and order to the city; it had nothing to do with favour or lack thereof. However, there is a limit to the disorder and chaos even Lolth will allow, hence her Peace following the defeat at Mithril Hall. Drizzt is insignificant to Lolth. Drow die at his feet because he's considerably more skilled than the average Melee Magthere graduate, and his decade long survival in the Underdark is considered commendable even among his kindred.
creyzi4zb12 03-13-07, 09:48 PM	Creyzi... if you ever find yourself on a throne, I weep for you. With assessments of character like that, you'll soon have a dagger in your back... That's pretty fine a print, considering the fact that I was Battallion Corps. Commander in C.A.T. once. ANd was President of our entire H.S. Dept. during my highschool years. And yeah...It's good to be the king...er...queen that is. I'm making fun of Drizzt coz too many people are addicted to him. And I love orcs.
Stigger 03-14-07, 12:59 AM	You're out of HS at 17? Different system than the US then I guess... shouldn't be surprising I guess thinking about it. Heh, fair enough about Drizzt I guess, not really that fond of him myself, but the orc thing is unforgiveable. I shall banish you to Nishrek to see just how much you really love them... just as soon as I get the batteries back for my wand of orc-lover-banishment. :D
Azar_of_Faerun 03-14-07, 02:05 AM	But Drizzt needs to let his hair down, head to the local bar, ride around in a convertible, and he can get his magic back :)
creyzi4zb12 03-14-07, 08:13 AM	:fight!: The orcs have invaded this thread!! :dancin: Orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc!! :dancin: :fight!: Arm yourselves!! :invasion:
The_Shaman 03-14-07, 08:57 AM	Okay, now that's a fanboyism I don't want to be a part of.
Lord Karsus 03-14-07, 09:55 AM	-Here here...
Entreri1000 03-14-07, 06:46 PM	Zak said Drizzt is better than him, what more do you want? He is better than a 24th level fighter. Plus, Zak said to Jaraxle that he found someone better than him/Jaraxle. You can see from their encounters (between Drizzt and Zak later on) it is evident that Drizzt is better. And some of you saying he cannot even handle a mere 20th level fighter. RAS is not concerned about mere levels, if he wants I am sure he have Drizzt beat up Gareth Dargonbane, all 25 levels in all. Or Shurrpacks or etc. As for Obould with armor, it is equivalent to fighting an Admantium golem with a +1 weapon. Even a 40th level fighter would be in trouble, unless one has a +8 weapon. Only their final fight counted, which they were dead even, before that priestess open up the earth in on them: But if that fight continued, Drizzt would win, because he always does, otherwise he would die. Drizzt makes much more money than any other characters in the Realms.
The_Shaman 03-14-07, 06:58 PM	@Entreri: it's kinda hard to guess what a character meant, but imo he meant that Drizzt had the potential to be better OR had better starting position (read: stats). Don't forget that Drizzt is basically at an age most elves are still learning which end of a longsword is for stabbing people - he was around 60-ish when he left the Underdark. Zak was, afaik, at least 200 given that he had a mature daughter when Drizzt was born. So, yeah, Drizzt may be faster, stronger, more awara of his surroundings - but in terms of sheer experience, he's not there yet. The difference between a lvl 20 and a lvl 16 fighter won't be so much in their skill, but who knows a few more tricks imo.
Lord Karsus 03-14-07, 07:36 PM	And some of you saying he cannot even handle a mere 20th level fighter. -Statistically, the 20th level Fighter has more of a chance to beat the 16th level Ranger (or any one of the other variants that exist that still give Drizzt 16 character levels) than the other way around.
creyzi4zb12 03-14-07, 09:15 PM	As for Obould with armor, it is equivalent to fighting an Admantium golem with a +1 weapon. Even a 40th level fighter would be in trouble, unless one has a +8 weapon. Only their final fight counted, which they were dead even, before that priestess open up the earth in on them: But if that fight continued, Drizzt would win, because he always does, otherwise he would die. Drizzt makes much more money than any other characters in the Realms. All is fair in love an war. If Drizzt would wear Obould's armor and Obould use Drizzt's weapons Drizzt could not move properly because it's too heavy. And all Obould needs to do is burn him down with his fireball spitting crown. THe only thing that matters is that Drizzt lost. Obould already had the advantage in that fight, so its not proper to say that he would win. A tie would be better.
Khaelieth 03-14-07, 09:22 PM	Personally, I think Drizzt was dazed by Obould's lovely eyes. Obould is sorta supposed to be armoured though! He's a big bad orc with bad breath, not a half-pansy wizard who plays with rabbits! And saying the Drizzt is best because he beat Zaknafein is silly, as Zaknafein's (was) rarely regarded as the best in the world. Shurrupak would slaughter him, hang him up to dry and feed him to his pet lobsters, Merlin and Reginald. *Fires catapult at Drizzt* *splat* Yays! Kobolds win again!
Zevox 03-14-07, 11:03 PM	And all Obould needs to do is burn him down with his fireball spitting crown. Would you give that one up already? Drizzt is a Drow, hes innately resistant to magic, and that crown is based on a low-CL magic item. Plus it does pitiable damage - less than the normal minimum for a fireball. We know Drizzt has weathered lightning bolts from skilled wizards in the past, so that thing is no threat to him. Zevox
Critalondel 03-15-07, 04:19 AM	Zak said Drizzt is better than him, what more do you want? He is better than a 24th level fighter. Plus, Zak said to Jaraxle that he found someone better than him/Jaraxle. But, uhh, no. He isn't better than a 24th level Fighter. He's a 16th level fighter/barbarian/ranger. It's a statistical fact that he's not, as such, "better" than a 24th level Fighter in a stand up fight. You repeating it doesn't make it so, since we've got hard, cold, statistics that tell us otherwise. We have game stats for Drizzt. Period. Your whining fanboyism doesn't change that he's, as published right now, a 16th level character (and not even a particularly good one, at that). RA Salvatore does what RA Salvatore does, and that is casually ignore the game stats and rules of the D&D game entirely, in the interest of telling a story. But you're not on a novel discussion web site right now, you're on a D&D discussion web site -- and that means, when discussing how good someone is at a fight, you should do so according to their game stats. And besides, just because a character in a novel says something doesn't mean it's true. Remember when Jarlaxle once told people in an inn he was Drizzt, and Artemis was his dour Paladin traveling companion? OMG! Jarlaxle has been Drizzt all along, and Artemis Entreri is a Paladin! A character in a novel said something, it must be true!
Zanan 03-15-07, 05:02 AM	Gamestat-wise, Drizzt was given (by various designers) as a Ranger 16 after all the balor / mariliths / whatever stuff. Last AD&D source mentioning him was R.A. Salvatore's very own The Accursed Tower. Hence we know that he know what the character looks/-ed like in game terms. After that the only folks who came close to his CR were Obould and a few frost giants. The rest, if you care to keep in mind, were orc warriors (as in Warriors) 1 to maybe 5. That is food and drink for Drizzt's blades. As in: people should not got carried away with prolonged descriptions of fights and all. If you want fair novel descriptions on characters displaying their abilities in novels, read the War of the Spider Queen. If any of the priestesses of Menzo had the will of killing off the scimitar-wielder, they would have done so (in-setting, that is, not in-novel) and without much of a problem. The latter is that in the novels they tend to go for the worst possible option in choice of fighter-fighting, as in use that whip of fangs and all rather than mind-blasting spells etc.. As for novel deeds, methinks Obould man-handles Gerti? A 1,2 ton frost giant? That should make you think.
Another Gnome 03-15-07, 08:03 AM	Obould man-handles Gerti? A 1,2 ton frost giant? That should make you think. *thinks* If we assume Obould's increased strength is just a permanent bull's strength spell, and assuming he was raging when he battled Gerti, he would've had Str 26, which (while still no match to Gerti's Str 29, size advantage, and higher attack bonus) at least gives him a statistical fighting chance. Now, while Str 26 for a medium creature is hardly enough to lift a 2600-pound giantess off the ground (and indeed, Obould couldn't realistically speaking have enough leverage for it even if he was strong enough), it is enough to at least push said giantess around. Thus, it won't require that much artistic liberty on part of the author to describe Obould tossing Gerti across the room, just a lucky die roll or two.
Lord Karsus 03-15-07, 09:22 AM	If we assume Obould's increased strength is just a permanent bull's strength spell, and assuming he was raging when he battled Gerti, he would've had Str 26, which (while still no match to Gerti's Str 29, size advantage, and higher attack bonus) at least gives him a statistical fighting chance. -If it is indeed permanent Bull's Strength, then Obould's STR is what is presented in the FRCS, since the FRCS was written in DR 1372, and the Hunter's Blade Trilogy took place circa DR 1369. That is, unless the permanent Bull Strength faded away, in which case, it really wouldn't be permanent, would it...?
Zanan 03-15-07, 09:41 AM	Unless something happened to my FRCS, Obould has STR 18. No item, no divine something, no nothing. (Bull's Strength will buff that to 22 ... ) I for one won't go by assumptions and possible thingies, else my drow matrons would all well be in the epics after several hundred years of House-ruling and all ... ;)
ShadezofDis 03-15-07, 10:13 AM	It's pretty ridiculous to even try and put stats to RAS's writing. He's an author and uses artistic license heavily.
Another Gnome 03-15-07, 01:09 PM	Unless something happened to my FRCS, Obould has STR 18. No item, no divine something, no nothing. (Bull's Strength will buff that to 22 ... ) I for one won't go by assumptions and possible thingies, else my drow matrons would all well be in the epics after several hundred years of House-ruling and all ... I did use FRCS stats as they are, simply added +4 from rage and +4 from the presumed* bull's strength for a total of 26. *Presumed in that there's no telling if he got anything more than a normal spell, just with permanent duration, but either way the spell is named in the book, and I kinda doubt Gruumsh would grant any less power than that to his chosen warrior. He's an author and uses artistic license heavily. Oh, I don't claim that RAS ever bothered consulting a rulebook, just pointing out that what happened in that particular scene could more or less have happened even if you did stick to the numbers. :)
Zanan 03-15-07, 01:17 PM	I did use FRCS stats as they are, simply added +4 from rage and +4 from the presumed* bull's strength for a total of 26. *Presumed in that there's no telling if he got anything more than a normal spell, just with permanent duration, but either way the spell is named in the book, and I kinda doubt Gruumsh would grant any less power than that to his chosen warrior. Fair enough. Matter of factly, I can't remember whether he was actually raging at that moment.
Rogue Shadows 03-15-07, 03:28 PM	Drizzt is precisely as good as a DM needs him to be. The few times I've included Drizzt in my campaigns, I didn't even bother statting him. If the players were stupid enough to fight him - and once or twice, they were - the players lost. In terms of the novels, Drizzt comes across as something of the best single warrior on Faerun. What Elminster is to magic, Drizzt is to swordplay. It's a statistical fact that he's not, as such, "better" than a 24th level Fighter in a stand up fight. Yes, but then given his feats as shown in the novels, the hard and cold stats for Drizzt are off. Either that, or Zak's are. Probably the latter. I think Drizzt is such low-level not because designers honestly thought him to be such, as much as someone pointed down during design, "But, hey, wait - isn't he only something like 70? How could he realistically be more powerful then Jarlaxle or Gromph, who've been around for centuries, enduring the same conditions?"
Khaelieth 03-15-07, 07:25 PM	Fair enough. Matter of factly, I can't remember whether he was actually raging at that moment. *Giggles drowishly* Raging... *Giggles some more* I hope more than just me got that one! Though, I don't think it was intended! But Drizzt wins cause the authors want him to. If Obould butchered him, it wouldn't be much fun, would it?
creyzi4zb12 03-15-07, 10:10 PM	I did use FRCS stats as they are, simply added +4 from rage and +4 from the presumed* bull's strength for a total of 26. ) Don't orcs have additional +4 bonus strength SO that's 18 = normal roll +4 = racial bonus +4 = rage +4 = perma. bull strength -------- 30 strength = In, other words...his strength is almost epic..or is it?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 03-15-07, 10:24 PM	Well by the FRCS stats he has he took way to many fighter levels, Id let him keep 2, put the rest with his ranger levels, but this is a common problem, Artemis anteri has 12 lighter levels? why!? I mean he took spring attack chain and Two weapon fighting, mutualy incompatable, from a CO perspectave both made a lot of bad choises. And as for Elaith? takes an odd number of fighter levels, then stays wizard when he could have prc'd to Eldrich Knight lusing nothing... Sorry had to rant there.
theartistformerlyknownas 03-15-07, 10:56 PM	Well by the FRCS stats he has he took way to many fighter levels, Id let him keep 2, put the rest with his ranger levels, but this is a common problem, Artemis anteri has 12 lighter levels? why!? I mean he took spring attack chain and Two weapon fighting, mutualy incompatable, from a CO perspectave both made a lot of bad choises. And as for Elaith? takes an odd number of fighter levels, then stays wizard when he could have prc'd to Eldrich Knight lusing nothing... Sorry had to rant there. Rants are fine. Uneducated rants are not. The FRCS (and the stats of all major NPCS within) was written before the release of the 3.5 DMG. So obviously, you Elaith could not have taken Eldritch Knight. And remember, the designers for WotC do not tend to min-max their NPC stat blocks. They try to focus on letting the stat block reflect the character's history, not squeeze in a few caster levels and/or bonus feats wherever they can. And lastly, taking Eldritch Knight means losing many, many fighter feats... :nonono:
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 03-15-07, 11:09 PM	My apologies I went from 2nd eddition to 3.5 so didn't realised Eldrick Knight was an addition in the .5. And as Elath took only 3 fighter levels fighter 1 eldrick knight lv 1 wouldn't cost him a feat at all, hardly many many feats.
Zevox 03-15-07, 11:31 PM	Don't orcs have additional +4 bonus strength Thats a racial bonus - its already put into his stats. If he weren't an Orc, he'd have a strength of 14 to start with. Zevox
Lord Karsus 03-15-07, 11:50 PM	Don't orcs have additional +4 bonus strength -Last time I checked, it was only a +2. +4 = perma. bull strength -Like I said before, if the Bull's Strength is/was permanent, it technically already is reflected in Obould's FRCS entry, since that "glimpse" of him is from DR 1372, and the events of the HBT are circa DR 1369.
Zevox 03-16-07, 01:11 AM	-Last time I checked, it was only a +2. Thats Half-Orcs. Full bloods get +4. -Like I said before, if the Bull's Strength is/was permanent, it technically already is reflected in Obould's FRCS entry, since that "glimpse" of him is from DR 1372, and the events of the HBT are circa DR 1369. Oh come on LK, you know full well the FRCS was written before the Hunter's Blades Trilogy. Changes that happened after the book was written in reality can't be accounted for no matter when in FR time the information in the book is supposed to reflect. Zevox
Lord Karsus 03-16-07, 01:18 AM	Thats Half-Orcs. Full bloods get +4. -Good point, you're right. Oh come on LK, you know full well the FRCS was written before the Hunter's Blades Trilogy. Changes that happened after the book was written in reality can't be accounted for no matter when in FR time the information in the book is supposed to reflect. Zevox -Ah, ah, ah, I don't want to hear it. The stats presented in the FRCS are the most recent canon stats for Obould, as per DR 1372. Those are his official stats. RAS should have thought of all that before he decided to set his novels in the past...:nonono:
Stigger 03-16-07, 01:59 AM	I'm with LK on that one... you'd think since it was backdated he could have at least looked at how badly Obould was statted and just tossed the idea altogether... maybe throw something together with Vampires instead. :D
Khaelieth 03-16-07, 04:24 AM	-Ah, ah, ah, I don't want to hear it. The stats presented in the FRCS are the most recent canon stats for Obould, as per DR 1372. Those are his official stats. RAS should have thought of all that before he decided to set his novels in the past...:nonono: Artistic license!
creyzi4zb12 03-16-07, 07:30 AM	I'm with LK on that one... you'd think since it was backdated he could have at least looked at how badly Obould was statted and just tossed the idea altogether... maybe throw something together with Vampires instead. :D Yeah you're right. 14 strength for a barbarian/fighter is a joke. A normal DnD player would put in 16 to 18 strength if he uses an orc barbarian/fighter. Rolling 14 for a barbarian...Are Obould's stat rolls that bad? If he is one of the best I'd say he got all 18 or a little less on the others.
Stigger 03-16-07, 08:19 AM	Hey, don't blame me because someone gave him a really crap official build... or for the seeming detail that RAS didn't pay attention to those official crap stats. :P
ShadezofDis 03-16-07, 09:29 AM	Hey, don't blame me because someone gave him a really crap official build... or for the seeming detail that RAS didn't pay attention to those official crap stats. :P And there is always the possibility that there is a reason for big O's craptastic FRCS stats ;D (I don't believe that but it wouldn't be so hard to create a reason why *g*) Further, I'd assume that they used the "elite array" to build big O, that's how I build my NPCs and I find that it brings a decent parity to my game. Though on my "mega" NPCs I'll boost thier stats and on certain opponents I'll give them full hps.
Lord Karsus 03-16-07, 10:03 AM	And there is always the possibility that there is a reason for big O's craptastic FRCS stats ;D (I don't believe that but it wouldn't be so hard to create a reason why *g*) -True. Between then and DR 1372, Obould could be attacked by a massive amount of stat draining Undead, which would explain things...
ShadezofDis 03-16-07, 10:10 AM	-True. Between then and DR 1372, Obouls could be attacked by a massive amount of stat draining Undead, which would explain things... Or lost the favor of Gruumsh and the favor of Gruumsh could have advanced his levels and ability scores (so when the favor's gone then so's the boost) :p Of course there could be a lot of dwarven wraiths who decended upon the poor orcs ;D And I swear I'll have a sig put together later today ;D
Zevox 03-16-07, 11:58 AM	-Ah, ah, ah, I don't want to hear it. The stats presented in the FRCS are the most recent canon stats for Obould, as per DR 1372. Those are his official stats. RAS should have thought of all that before he decided to set his novels in the past...:nonono: Oh come on now, you know full well RAS doesn't care a lick about stats, official or otherwise. Hes not writing novels for the game, hes writing them for the setting. And to make money, of course. The stats obviously don't reflect what hes been seen doing, so they're wrong for his current incarnation, plain and simple. Zevox
Lord Karsus 03-16-07, 02:10 PM	Or lost the favor of Gruumsh and the favor of Gruumsh could have advanced his levels and ability scores (so when the favor's gone then so's the boost) :p Of course there could be a lot of dwarven wraiths who decended upon the poor orcs ;D -I prefer the Dwarven wraiths, myself. Oh come on now, you know full well RAS doesn't care a lick about stats, official or otherwise. Hes not writing novels for the game, hes writing them for the setting. And to make money, of course. The stats obviously don't reflect what hes been seen doing, so they're wrong for his current incarnation, plain and simple. Zevox -Pete Rose might have been one of the best infielders in the history of the MLB, but he cannot be voted into Cooperstown, so Rose isn't actually a Hall-of-Famer. Baseball lesson for today is done.
Zevox 03-16-07, 02:28 PM	-Pete Rose might have been one of the best infielders in the history of the MLB, but he cannot be voted into Cooperstown, so Rose isn't actually a Hall-of-Famer. Baseball lesson for today is done. :confused: I haven't the first clue what you just said... Zevox
Stigger 03-16-07, 03:58 PM	:blink: In otherwords, Pete Rose may have been one of the best players ever, but due to his mistakes he'll never, ever get into the Baseball hall of fame. I suspect it's meant as a subtle rebuke to RAS for not taking official stats into account. Play by the rules or don't bother playing sort of situation. And yeah, I prefer the dwarven wraith scenario too... by a very hefty margin really.
Lord Karsus 03-16-07, 05:22 PM	:confused: I haven't the first clue what you just said... -Yeah, I never finished that thought. The telephone rang, and I had to pick up my sister from school (though, why she couldn't walk the whole ten blocks is beyond me). I left the computer on, but I didn't realize that I didn't finish my post when I posted it. Heh...I like Stigger's interpretation of that though. I meant it as it "doesn't matter hoe he was portrayed, because the 'official' rendering says something different", but I like Stigger's acribed meaning to that better. :)
boards 03-16-07, 08:21 PM	In one of the Marco Volo Adventures (i think) a group of travelling entertainers sind a ballad or Drizzt in Cormyr. How wide spread do you think this ballad would be known.
Lord Karsus 03-16-07, 11:02 PM	How wide spread do you think this ballad would be known. -Depends on who the entertainers were. If they were the Beatles of the Realms, then people'd be singing it from Cormyr to Calimshan. If not, then it's only a local thing, I would think (if the ballad was good enough to be remembered, that is).
Zevox 03-16-07, 11:36 PM	:blink: In otherwords, Pete Rose may have been one of the best players ever, but due to his mistakes he'll never, ever get into the Baseball hall of fame. I suspect it's meant as a subtle rebuke to RAS for not taking official stats into account. Play by the rules or don't bother playing sort of situation. And yeah, I prefer the dwarven wraith scenario too... by a very hefty margin really. Well, I still have no idea who Pete Rose is (aside obviously from a Baseball player), but thats because I don't pay attention to sports at all anyway (the only sports players I know by name are Michael Jordon and Steve Yzerman, and the latter only because I live near Detroit). Ergo why the comparison failed with me. But anyway then, I suppose I just fundamentally disagree with LK on that. I don't feel that novels need to be tied to the game at all, and I think it would be foolish to force novelists to use game stats when writing their works. The novels aren't the game, and should never become such. I meant it as it "doesn't matter hoe he was portrayed, because the 'official' rendering says something different", Except of course that since the novels are considered canon Realmslore and are more recent than the FRCS, they are the latest official information on what Obould can do. Given they obviously don't mesh, that means the older text is wrong as far as canon goes last I checked. Zevox
Stigger 03-17-07, 01:46 AM	But anyway then, I suppose I just fundamentally disagree with LK on that. I don't feel that novels need to be tied to the game at all, and I think it would be foolish to force novelists to use game stats when writing their works. The novels aren't the game, and should never become such. Except of course that since the novels are considered canon Realmslore and are more recent than the FRCS, they are the latest official information on what Obould can do. Given they obviously don't mesh, that means the older text is wrong as far as canon goes last I checked. Umm... do you see the problem between those two statements? On one hand you have that it's a bad idea that novels should use the rules... on the other you have that those same novels are essentially the rules for the fluff, and by extension that moves into rules mechanics where characters and a few other things are concerned... it's something of a contradiction to say the least. Unless I'm misinterpreting what you meant there perhaps, it seems like you want it both ways there... and that just doesn't work. Personally, I don't see a good solution to the entire matter. On one hand you want a highly consistent world that has rules and that generally sticks to them (with some exceptions of course), but on the other you want your writers to explore some of those cool ideas and concepts, and to have enough literary freedom to tell a good story. I've no good suggestions or ideas as to how the two can live harmoniously together beyond what would probably be interpreted as some rather unwelcome criticism of authors... so... yeah.
Zanan 03-17-07, 06:30 AM	Oh come on now, you know full well RAS doesn't care a lick about stats, official or otherwise. Hes not writing novels for the game, hes writing them for the setting. And to make money, of course. The stats obviously don't reflect what hes been seen doing, so they're wrong for his current incarnation, plain and simple. Zevox Which is why the designers and and writers were at odds in days gone by. Thankfully, there are not many (if any) authors these days who skip the rules part for novel stuff, as anyone who read the books of the last few years can verify. As for deeds done, put them into perspective. Entreri, Drizzt, Jarlaxle ... they are all stand-outs in novels and places where the highest level characters about them never show anything that would suggest that they have acquired even half the main protagonists' level. In that respect, most of what the threesome do or did will seem super-human or extraordinary indeed. Thus, try to keep an objective look on what you read, whether RAS goes after the rules or not.
Zsych 03-17-07, 08:33 AM	Considering that there are a fair number of 20+ Fighters in FR. Many unpublished... Considering that even Azoun(sp?) the idiot king of Cormyr who had done nothing serious in his life was 20th level. Drizzt who beat the richest and the best of the best of the Drow in (yup, I've definitely been away for too long, forgetting names... )<the city Drizzt is from... Menzoberranzan(I remember now :))> , even ignoring his father, being statted less than the likes of Azoun is just plain wrong. I recall several, practically nameless fighter characters in Ed's answers, who apparently also do practically nothing serious, that are 24+ Sure 16 is quite high, but he and Enteri deserve to be at least low epic. ..Although I'm a believer in only mages rising to really high levels :) Fighters with divine favor and longevity are understandable too, but in general, if you go to the front of the battle, even if you're talented, there's a fair chance that you'll get killed unexpectedly. (that may not always matter with PCs but for the world in general...) --- As for Obould against Alustriel. The not yet restatted Obould might well be dangerous if Alustriel sits still and takes the bashing, fighting from within the range of his sword. The improvement in him seemed more than just a few stat upgrades. Obould as a Chosen of Grumsh might not be a bad idea(though I think that more than a few Chosen of dieties have turned up lately, so more Chosen might be uncool... even if the dieties are supposed to have learned the benefit of Chosen from the ToT)
Zevox 03-17-07, 10:08 AM	Umm... do you see the problem between those two statements? On one hand you have that it's a bad idea that novels should use the rules... on the other you have that those same novels are essentially the rules for the fluff, and by extension that moves into rules mechanics where characters and a few other things are concerned... it's something of a contradiction to say the least. Unless I'm misinterpreting what you meant there perhaps, it seems like you want it both ways there... and that just doesn't work. I think you're misinterpreting that there. Let me put it another way: the novels and the game are two different things that are necessarily intertwined. The game is dependent, at least in particular settings like FR, on the lore, which is in part generated by the novels, but the novels and lore should not be dependent on the rules of the game in my opinion, because the game's rules just exist to allow players to play the game, not to allow the setting and its lore to function. In other words, the lore is more important than the game, so when the two don't mesh, its the game that should change. Zevox
Zanan 03-17-07, 12:03 PM	Drizzt who beat the richest and the best of the best of the Drow in (yup, I've definitely been away for too long, forgetting names... )<the city Drizzt is from... Menzoberranzan(I remember now :))> , even ignoring his father, being statted less than the likes of Azoun is just plain wrong. This Drizzt beating of Zaknafein has grown arms and legs the longer it is re-told. He sparred with his father a few times and once (or twice) he beat his father. Out of how-many dozen fights? That's what you call a natural 20 these days (and Tymora's smile). His father mused that he's a better fighter as well ... but how many parents haven't mused somesuch about their children?
ShadezofDis 03-17-07, 02:14 PM	Considering that there are a fair number of 20+ Fighters in FR. Many unpublished... Considering that even Azoun(sp?) the idiot king of Cormyr who had done nothing serious in his life was 20th level. Umm. . . there was that whole "adventuring career" thing and the "tuigan horde" thing and a few "rebellions" and probably a few dozen "assasination attempts". . . But yeah. . . nothin. . . cause we know everything that happened to him. ...
ShadezofDis 03-17-07, 02:16 PM	I think you're misinterpreting that there. Let me put it another way: the novels and the game are two different things that are necessarily intertwined. The game is dependent, at least in particular settings like FR, on the lore, which is in part generated by the novels, but the novels and lore should not be dependent on the rules of the game in my opinion, because the game's rules just exist to allow players to play the game, not to allow the setting and its lore to function. In other words, the lore is more important than the game, so when the two don't mesh, its the game that should change. Zevox Personally, I'd just like some consistancy. I was going to expand upon the whys and such but that wouldn't end up being very kosher.
Khaelieth 03-17-07, 04:48 PM	This Drizzt beating of Zaknafein has grown arms and legs the longer it is re-told. He sparred with his father a few times and once (or twice) he beat his father. Out of how-many dozen fights? That's what you call a natural 20 these days (and Tymora's smile). His father mused that he's a better fighter as well ... but how many parents haven't mused somesuch about their children? But St. Paddy and St. Andrew would have kicked all their arses! *Kicks Zanan's arse very Paddicaly and in good nature*:D But aye, I do agree with her. But I don't make sense. *Celebrates*
Zanan 03-17-07, 05:46 PM	Where in Ireland ... or Norway is Glasgow, BTW? :D
Khaelieth 03-17-07, 08:16 PM	Off topic! Mods, delete her post!:D
Stigger 03-17-07, 09:04 PM	I think you're misinterpreting that there. Let me put it another way: the novels and the game are two different things that are necessarily intertwined. The game is dependent, at least in particular settings like FR, on the lore, which is in part generated by the novels, but the novels and lore should not be dependent on the rules of the game in my opinion, because the game's rules just exist to allow players to play the game, not to allow the setting and its lore to function. In other words, the lore is more important than the game, so when the two don't mesh, its the game that should change. I've got no problem with lore trumping mechanics in some respects... but c'mon, a CR9 orc vs a CR18 drow is going to get eaten for breakfast, particularly one who didn't even merit a mention in the orc entry in the 2e North boxed set, despite several other orc leaders getting mentions. He's not much more than a footnote there, and now all of a sudden he's the terror of the North? The entry on him in Volo's Guide to the North hardly paints a much better picture of him... though considerably more detailed (and complimentary since the North boxed portrayed him as a terrified and superstitious ruler), if it's to be believed, considering how much heed people seem to pay to Volo. Which is why I have such a hard time believing that he's such a huge threat all of a sudden... sure he held off 150,000 troops with 40,000 from a defensive position, which is impressive to be sure, but he had that victory turned into defeat by the dwarven arrival, which was led by an 11th level dwarven fighter... sure, he's gonna give Drizzt a hard time just a couple of short years later... right... which is ultimately my problem with the whole thing. Old lore invalidated for the sake of a story that should have taken it into account in the first place.
Zsych 03-17-07, 10:54 PM	I have trouble believing a guy less than utterly dedicated and lacking godlike talent can reach level 20. And if he can, Drizzt and lot, who are talented, well trained(in a place where levels should rise out of the sheer ugliness of the situation), and who continue practicing perfecting their art, to surpass those less dedicated people. Adventuring and wars or not, what level or risk would Azoun really be allowed to face? How dedicated would he really be to mastering the art of one-on-one combat(as an art to be perfected, as opposed to just learning how to fight well) Drizzt has fought other arms-masters of the Drow, and beaten them easily... As in the guy who was second after Zak. Beating his dad... suspicious admittedly, but he was depicted as having attained skill and understanding of fighting greater than what Zaknafein knew. Creating attacks and counters superior to what Zak had developed and mastered. Also... if Zak wasn't initially using his full abilities, he was still ruthless, and Drizzt wasn'f focussing because he was seriously in doubt but not much was happening to him. ... Generally, you do not assume that anyone keeps rolling high. Happens on rare occasions, but generally the rolls even out. If he fought Zak again, going by everything you know in the novels, would he not defeat Zak again? I'm sure he would, more easily than before. (Perhaps this means that Zak, the best of the best of the drow fighters, needs to be statted less)
Zanan 03-18-07, 06:38 AM	Zsych ... do keep in mind that this was not done on a table or with stats in mind. If Drizzt was meant to be a still not-yet-adult drow fighter able to beat Menzoberranzan's finest, he was able to do so. Not because of his stats or those of the people he fought, but the pen who wrote his story. He is probably the prime example of rules and novel deeds being seperated by a chasm that can hardly be bridged. In a novel, a goblin servant could put a poisoned needle into a 15th level wizard and lay him to rest, despite 20odd spells being active on the wizard (going by his stats).
creyzi4zb12 03-18-07, 11:12 AM	I've got no problem with lore trumping mechanics in some respects... but c'mon, a CR9 orc vs a CR18 drow is going to get eaten for breakfast, particularly one who didn't even merit a mention in the orc entry in the 2e North boxed set, despite several other orc leaders getting mentions. He's not much more than a footnote there, and now all of a sudden he's the terror of the North? The entry on him in Volo's Guide to the North hardly paints a much better picture of him... though considerably more detailed (and complimentary since the North boxed portrayed him as a terrified and superstitious ruler), if it's to be believed, considering how much heed people seem to pay to Volo. Which is why I have such a hard time believing that he's such a huge threat all of a sudden... sure he held off 150,000 troops with 40,000 from a defensive position, which is impressive to be sure, but he had that victory turned into defeat by the dwarven arrival, which was led by an 11th level dwarven fighter... sure, he's gonna give Drizzt a hard time just a couple of short years later... right... which is ultimately my problem with the whole thing. Old lore invalidated for the sake of a story that should have taken it into account in the first place. Then perhaps that is his greatest advantage of all. (Quoted from Jarlaxle). Remember Vrakk in Avatar? Lot's of people underestimated him....And he's got one of the best accomplishments in Zhentil Keep. Orcs rule. Obould rules. He's the threat of the north right now..The mortal enemy of Drizzt. He killed a drow and some wizards as easy as stealing candy from a baby. :cheer:
ShadezofDis 03-18-07, 12:38 PM	And again, I'd love a little consistancy. Drizzt is the perfect example of how "elves are broken" in D&D. He's about 90 years old? Something like that, has a good 3 centuries in him if he decides to retire early. In 3 centuries, if he follows his current lifestyle, he'll be into the 40's easy. It's difficult to maintain the "elven sociological reason for not gaining level 150000000" without these examples of elves acting like humans, for all intents and purposes.
Zanan 03-18-07, 02:34 PM	And again, I'd love a little consistancy. Drizzt is the perfect example of how "elves are broken" in D&D. He's about 90 years old? Something like that, has a good 3 centuries in him if he decides to retire early. In 3 centuries, if he follows his current lifestyle, he'll be into the 40's easy. It's difficult to maintain the "elven sociological reason for not gaining level 150000000" without these examples of elves acting like humans, for all intents and purposes. Nay, once he reaches 175 he becomes middle aged, when turning 263 he becomes old. Thing is, he's mostly fighting orc warriors and the like these days, so if you go by the rules, he only gets XP for fullfilling quests and the like. Well, now, what am I talking about :rolleyes: If you go by ageing and all, the same would apply to dwarves and gnomes. But you do have to realize that most of them do not live in constant search for XP (be that adventures or wars or the like), but stay at home in that sweet cosy tower studying spells and creating new ones to gain experience (then, shedding it again while creating items) etc. pp.. There is a clear distinction between the life of a PC and those tons of thousands of NPCs hanging about.
Zevox 03-18-07, 07:28 PM	Personally, I'd just like some consistancy. And who is at fault for the inconsistency? In Drizzt's case, surely with WotC, since the novels on him far pre-date his stats. In Obould's case, I'd say the ritual RAS gave in the novel is a fine enough explanation for his change, so no problem there. I've got no problem with lore trumping mechanics in some respects... but c'mon, a CR9 orc vs a CR18 drow is going to get eaten for breakfast, particularly one who didn't even merit a mention in the orc entry in the 2e North boxed set, despite several other orc leaders getting mentions. He's not much more than a footnote there, and now all of a sudden he's the terror of the North? The entry on him in Volo's Guide to the North hardly paints a much better picture of him... though considerably more detailed (and complimentary since the North boxed portrayed him as a terrified and superstitious ruler), if it's to be believed, considering how much heed people seem to pay to Volo. Which is why I have such a hard time believing that he's such a huge threat all of a sudden... sure he held off 150,000 troops with 40,000 from a defensive position, which is impressive to be sure, but he had that victory turned into defeat by the dwarven arrival, which was led by an 11th level dwarven fighter... sure, he's gonna give Drizzt a hard time just a couple of short years later... right... which is ultimately my problem with the whole thing. Old lore invalidated for the sake of a story that should have taken it into account in the first place. Eh, not to mean any offense with this (since I honestly can't know), but did you read the Hunter's Blades Trilogy? Why hes suddenly much more competent is pretty obviously spelled out there. He wasn't any better than old lore portrayed him as until the ritual that gave him Gruumsh's blessings, and even he was shocked that worked for once. He was in fact being pretty handily manipulated by a group of Drow until that event, which was the only reason his invasion got off the ground to begin with. He's the threat of the north right now. Exaggerating much? Hes a threat to the Silver Marches. Nothing more. Not even the biggest threat, all things considered, just the most obvious one. The mortal enemy of Drizzt. Last I checked, Drizzt had learned his lesson about letting such stupid ideas as that take hold of him with Entreri. He killed a drow and some wizards as easy as stealing candy from a baby. You know, in the large scheme of things, thats not precisely a hard feat. Zevox
ShadezofDis 03-18-07, 09:23 PM	Nay, once he reaches 175 he becomes middle aged, when turning 263 he becomes old. Thing is, he's mostly fighting orc warriors and the like these days, so if you go by the rules, he only gets XP for fullfilling quests and the like. Well, now, what am I talking about :rolleyes: Fair enough, he's only got a century or two. And the CR of the encounters he's dealing with would generally earn a character xp. Not for each individual orc, but for a chunk of the orc army. If you go by ageing and all, the same would apply to dwarves and gnomes. But you do have to realize that most of them do not live in constant search for XP (be that adventures or wars or the like), but stay at home in that sweet cosy tower studying spells and creating new ones to gain experience (then, shedding it again while creating items) etc. pp.. There is a clear distinction between the life of a PC and those tons of thousands of NPCs hanging about. What part of "It's difficult to maintain the "elven sociological reason for not gaining level 150000000" without these examples of elves acting like humans, for all intents and purposes." wasn't clear? The biggest problem I have with the novels is that they tend to break lore rather than back lore, due to their inconsistencies. Drizzt is but a single example of this, another example would be the big El.
ShadezofDis 03-18-07, 09:29 PM	I have trouble believing a guy less than utterly dedicated and lacking godlike talent can reach level 20. And if he can, Drizzt and lot, who are talented, well trained(in a place where levels should rise out of the sheer ugliness of the situation), and who continue practicing perfecting their art, to surpass those less dedicated people. Adventuring and wars or not, what level or risk would Azoun really be allowed to face? How dedicated would he really be to mastering the art of one-on-one combat(as an art to be perfected, as opposed to just learning how to fight well) Drizzt has fought other arms-masters of the Drow, and beaten them easily... As in the guy who was second after Zak. Azoun took a lot more risks than you're giving credit for. Azoun was more of a reluctant king and he felt he needed to earn things. He trained with the best warriors the royal family of Cormyr could afford, he tempered that training with a not so little adventuring career. . . Well, actually, I already said all of that, the real short answer is "Azoun has been exposed to a lot of risk on several occations." Further, what makes you think one city-state of drow is going to produce better warriors than the nation of Cormyr? I know RAS described their training as ultra awesome (I thought so too) and all but they aren't really any better than the Purple Dragons.
Stigger 03-19-07, 12:32 AM	Eh, not to mean any offense with this (since I honestly can't know), but did you read the Hunter's Blades Trilogy? Why hes suddenly much more competent is pretty obviously spelled out there. He wasn't any better than old lore portrayed him as until the ritual that gave him Gruumsh's blessings, and even he was shocked that worked for once. He was in fact being pretty handily manipulated by a group of Drow until that event, which was the only reason his invasion got off the ground to begin with. Nope, haven't read it, lost interest in Drizzt a while ago and just never got it back, and I'm pretty much just going off the Silver Marches sourcebook here, and what I've heard about it here on the board. But that ritual... I'm presuming Black Lorog had something to do with engineering and leading that ritual, by the way, and even with the help of a lot of shamans and maybe even a cleric or two, I have a hard time picturing someone statted as a level 13 adept, pretty powerful for an orc sure, but still only able to cast a single 4th level spell per day, as having the knowledge or capability to transform a CR9 orc into something that could wipe the floor with a CR18 anything, much less a CR18 frost giantess... So really that pretty much just leaves divine intervention as being about the only thing capable of turning Obould into something/someone that can do that. It'll be interesting to see how it will be explained/resolved I suppose, but I'm at a loss as to how that'll be pulled off and still cleave to previously published sourcebook canon.
Zevox 03-19-07, 01:00 AM	Nope, haven't read it, lost interest in Drizzt a while ago and just never got it back, and I'm pretty much just going off the Silver Marches sourcebook here, and what I've heard about it here on the board. But that ritual... I'm presuming Black Lorog had something to do with engineering and leading that ritual, by the way, and even with the help of a lot of shamans and maybe even a cleric or two, I have a hard time picturing someone statted as a level 13 adept, pretty powerful for an orc sure, but still only able to cast a single 4th level spell per day, as having the knowledge or capability to transform a CR9 orc into something that could wipe the floor with a CR18 anything, much less a CR18 frost giantess... So really that pretty much just leaves divine intervention as being about the only thing capable of turning Obould into something/someone that can do that. It'll be interesting to see how it will be explained/resolved I suppose, but I'm at a loss as to how that'll be pulled off and still cleave to previously published sourcebook canon. I don't recall any of the Orcs involved in the ritual being mentioned by name, though the high priestess that was always trying to get in his good graces (can't recall her name right now) was I believe. But in any event, note that his hoard by that point comprised many clans from across the Spine of the World that he had, with the advice of those Drow that were manipulating him, drawn together under his lead, so its a given that he had quite a few more powerful clergy at his disposal at that point than his own original clan had. When I get some time later I'll look up that ritual in the novel and find out what specifically it says about it for ya if you'd like. Zevox
Stigger 03-19-07, 02:30 AM	I'd be doubtful of the more powerful cleric thing personally, but I'm curious as to if it was her or not.
Zsych 03-19-07, 06:58 AM	@ShadezofDis: I'd expect your survival to be harder when even your friends are willing to backstab you, and you're aware of it. Plus, the difference when both characters being compared have high talent, is one of time. Drizzt is older(at least I think so.. 160-ish nowadays isn't he?). People dedicated to fighting, talented, and living much longer should be better than your average human lot, with training/adventuring combined being less than 20 years worth. Its like elven mages. If they trained at the same pace as human wizards, by the time they're 500 they'd be a lot more powerful. Instead they're as strong at 500 as a human might be at 50. ... this limiting mentality shouldn't really apply to fighters I think. (I'll admit though that I don't recall any Underdark stats. If the drow are generally rated low though, I'd probably disagree with them)
Karsus the Mad 03-19-07, 07:00 AM	How good is Drizzt? Chaotically?
Stigger 03-19-07, 07:06 AM	*snickers*
ShadezofDis 03-19-07, 09:45 AM	How good is Drizzt? Chaotically? And we have a WINNER! Thread closed. Move along, nothing to be seen here.
ShadezofDis 03-19-07, 09:54 AM	Note: Ok, so maybe the thread isn't over, but KtM has had the best answer so far :) So really that pretty much just leaves divine intervention as being about the only thing capable of turning Obould into something/someone that can do that. It'll be interesting to see how it will be explained/resolved I suppose, but I'm at a loss as to how that'll be pulled off and still cleave to previously published sourcebook canon. And that (divine intervention) is what it seems to be. Could be the orcen (orcan, orcin, wth is right?) pantheon's responce to the . . . Thunder Blessing was it? Could also be the lost favor/dwarven wraiths theory that makes his stats work in the Silver Marches book. @ShadezofDis: I'd expect your survival to be harder when even your friends are willing to backstab you, and you're aware of it. Plus, the difference when both characters being compared have high talent, is one of time. Drizzt is older(at least I think so.. 160-ish nowadays isn't he?). People dedicated to fighting, talented, and living much longer should be better than your average human lot, with training/adventuring combined being less than 20 years worth. Its like elven mages. If they trained at the same pace as human wizards, by the time they're 500 they'd be a lot more powerful. Instead they're as strong at 500 as a human might be at 50. ... this limiting mentality shouldn't really apply to fighters I think. (I'll admit though that I don't recall any Underdark stats. If the drow are generally rated low though, I'd probably disagree with them) There are a couple parts to this, so we'll start at the begining; The number of drow who wanted to kill Drizzt was and is FAR LESS than the number of Cormyrian nobles who want/wanted Azoun to take a dirt nap. Not to mention the Zhents, Sembians and other groups. Drizzt = small potatoes, Azoun = world power. I don't have a good answer for the elven issue, I actually ignore any sense of reason and just accept that elves don't . . . level as well as humans. . . I guess is the only way I can really put it. I've not yet read a good example of an elven mentality that would support the game mechanics, I put this one down to it being just about impossible to put yourself in the shoes of a being who will live in thier prime for a couple centuries. Oh, and is it just me, or did elves lose about half their life span going from 2e to 3e?
Zanan 03-19-07, 11:49 AM	Well, going by what is written in the Heroes' Lorebook, Drizzt will linger near the 152 year mark these days. Cattie, BTW, is in her late 40s.
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 01:47 PM	Cattie, BTW, is in her late 40s. -Old bat. And that (divine intervention) is what it seems to be. Could be the orcen (orcan, orcin, wth is right?) pantheon's responce to the . . . Thunder Blessing was it? -Orcish. Could also be the lost favor/dwarven wraiths theory that makes his stats work in the Silver Marches book. -The idea that he lost Gruumsh's favor, or that the ritual to boost him up was not perminent is the only real was to reconcile all the stats, stories and all.
ShadezofDis 03-19-07, 02:12 PM	-Orcish. :tiphat: Boy do I feel stupid now :D -The idea that he lost Gruumsh's favor, or that the ritual to boost him up was not perminent is the only real was to reconcile all the stats, stories and all. Yep and in going with the novel it doesn't seem unlikely that he'd have lost Gruumsh's favor (or, if we wanted to get even more conspiritorial it could be a different god granted the blessing and then Gruumsh found out later and threw a tantrum)
Stigger 03-19-07, 03:14 PM	Hmph... I vote we just get a hin with a sling to turn him into Obould One-Eye, and then fly the hin off on a giant raven. Not sure how getting his arse kicked by a hin wouldn't lose him Gruumsh's favor and probably struck dead on the spot for the shame of it...
Ehput_Keh 03-19-07, 04:30 PM	Well, going by what is written in the Heroes' Lorebook, Drizzt will linger near the 152 year mark these days. Cattie, BTW, is in her late 40s. In one of Drizzt's journal entries in "Starless Night" he mentions "In my just over 60 years of life" (I don't have the book next to me so this may not be the exact wording, at work). That is about ten years prior to the events in "The Two Swords", so I would say closer to 80ish. I don't know where the game designers got the idea that Drizzt is over 100, in none of the novels does it suggest that he is over 100. He left Menzo when he was 40 (someone earlier said he left when he was 80 I think which I am not sure where that idea came from either).
Zanan 03-19-07, 06:34 PM	Well, Heroes' Lorebook gives data one a few dozen novel characters, as does its "evil" counterpart, the Villains' Lorebook. According to the former, all events up to and including Siege of Darkness have come and gone.
ElGrecoETAC 03-21-07, 08:11 PM	If I had a dollar for every time someone read too much into artistic license or creative wording... SPOILER WARNING, BELOW: Drizzt never beat Zaknafein. Drizzt managed to get past one of Zak's moves, and kicked his dad in the face. A split second into his triumph later, Zak showed the difference between a 24th level character and a (lvl X) character by blinding him and leaving him battered and moaning about his dad "cheating" (literally). Unless a successful counter suddendly started counting as a victory, there's some drastic revisioning going on here. Similarly, Drizzt was able to hold his own against Zak's Zin Carla form only for as long as Malice kept his full ability from him by suppressing his personality, memories, and feeling. What she feared all along came to pass when she gave back enough to Zak for him to exercise the self-control needed to stay his hand and not kill his son. He threw himself in the pool of acid instead. Finally, Zak was referring to Drizzt's potential as a fighter--not to his current experience. Obviously the latter wasn't the case, as the boy was still getting his lumps. This makes sense, after all: Drizzt learned under Zak--and thus, if he's not the best fighter in the Realms (and he's not), he certainly received probably the best training a fighter ever has. As Zak prophesied that his son would surpass him in skill, we can therefore feasibly assume that Drizzt has a good chance of hitting 25 levels or more of fighting classes. That would, in fact, put him up around the top 2-3 fighters of all editions (but not past that one 30th level monster). Also, as I recall, Catti-Brie was only 12 or so at the beginning of the Crystal Shard. Given that RAS' current timeline is only 18 years later, she is between 29 and 31 years of age. Who knows how long it will be before Heartseeker ends up being a Netherese artifact with longevity effects. ;)
Zsych 03-22-07, 06:20 AM	Who's the 30th level monster? (I don't recall any 30th level Fighters in FR, even from Ed's list of Top 10)
Zanan 03-22-07, 07:12 AM	Also, as I recall, Catti-Brie was only 12 or so at the beginning of the Crystal Shard. Given that RAS' current timeline is only 18 years later, she is between 29 and 31 years of age. Who knows how long it will be before Heartseeker ends up being a Netherese artifact with longevity effects. ;) It all depends on what RAS writes in his next novel, of course. Heroes' Lorebook presents canon, though we obviously do not know the relation between the author and the designer of that book. 30th level "monster"? As has been listed in the Fighters' thread, one Abordabe roaming the plains of Narfell as a tribesleader was given as a 30th level fighter. That said, he was 65 years old when last mentioned in FR 09 - The Bloodstone Lands, but there you go.
Zsych 03-22-07, 09:15 AM	This guy is in desperate need of some form of longevity. He needs to be saved!!! :)
ElGrecoETAC 03-22-07, 11:25 PM	It all depends on what RAS writes in his next novel, of course. Heroes' Lorebook presents canon, though we obviously do not know the relation between the author and the designer of that book. Well, the age I arrived at comes courtesy of the Wizards website's novel timeline... http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/FR_Timeline.asp Given that this is a more recent product, and one that has been compiled by Msieurs Boyd, Greenwood, and Schend no less, I would think that trumps Heroes Lorebook. Of course, it all depends on how one looks at it. :) 30th level "monster"? As has been listed in the Fighters' thread, one Abordabe roaming the plains of Narfell as a tribesleader was given as a 30th level fighter. That said, he was 65 years old when last mentioned in FR 09 - The Bloodstone Lands, but there you go. That is indeed the gentleman I was referring to! Thanks. :)
creyzi4zb12 03-22-07, 11:27 PM	Barbarian with 14 str. at start is a joke. If u take away the racial bonus that would mean the Barbarian has a starting strength of 10. Players don't usually do that, not even the normal ones. Even 12 is bad enough. Who would put 10 strength in a barbarian. I'd say Obould got 13 strength in start That's 13 - normal roll +4 - racial bonus +4 - permanent bull strength +4 - Rage ------- 25 = str. But I really think if he was elite his strength roll was a perfect 18..So that makes 18 - normal roll +4 - racial bonus +4 - permanent bull strength +4 - Rage --------- 30 strength
Lord Karsus 03-22-07, 11:34 PM	Barbarian with 14 str. at start is a joke. If u take away the racial bonus that would mean the Barbarian has a starting strength of 10. Players don't usually do that, not even the normal ones. Even 12 is bad enough. Who would put 10 strength in a barbarian. I'd say Obould got 13 strength in start That's 13 - normal roll +4 - racial bonus +4 - permanent bull strength +4 - Rage ------- 25 = str. But I really think if he was elite his strength roll was a perfect 18..So that makes 18 - normal roll +4 - racial bonus +4 - permanent bull strength +4 - Rage --------- 30 strength -Yeah, well, his official stats, no matter what source and what exact time, don't exactly reflect that at all.
creyzi4zb12 03-23-07, 12:21 AM	Oh yeah, one more thing I'd like to state, Obould's crown creates a fireball larger than ordinary fireballs. It has four gems which I think creates fireballs, which also means that his fireball is 4 times larger than an ordinary one.
Stigger 03-23-07, 12:37 AM	It'd be hard not to create better builds than most of the official ones in FRCS really... not sure what they were thinking when they came up with those. But at least Obould's no worse off than a lot of the other NPC's statted in there. :D As to Obould's crown... I'd think they were probably empowered and/or maximized rather than given a x4 multiplier. Haven't read it so couldn't say for certain, but that seems more likely to me. That's a pretty powerful item to hand out though... particularly for a supposedly CR9 orc, though that he's still at CR9 is probably very doubtful.
Zevox 03-23-07, 01:38 AM	Oh yeah, one more thing I'd like to state, Obould's crown creates a fireball larger than ordinary fireballs. It has four gems which I think creates fireballs, which also means that his fireball is 4 times larger than an ordinary one. Um, no. Four gems means it has four uses. Its based on the Necklace of Fireballs, which means he has to throw those gems to cause a fireball. As to Obould's crown... I'd think they were probably empowered and/or maximized rather than given a x4 multiplier. Haven't read it so couldn't say for certain, but that seems more likely to me. That's a pretty powerful item to hand out though... particularly for a supposedly CR9 orc, though that he's still at CR9 is probably very doubtful. Oh no, not at all. All it has is four gems of 3d6 fireballs by his write up. Quite weak, really. Zevox
Stigger 03-23-07, 02:14 AM	3d6 fireballs... yawn then. 18 max damage is kinda hard to get worked up over.
Alurvelve 03-23-07, 03:00 AM	18 max damage and only 9 if you make you reflex save, which face it aint gonna be a hard thing to do. DC for that thing is what 14-16. Maybe keep it around for intimidation purposes. Me big orc make fire follow me now.
Khaelieth 03-23-07, 04:51 AM	But it could just be a modified, BETTER version of it. Anyhow, I wouldn't like being engulfed in fire, in reality it WOULD kill you.
AffableDoomwalker 03-23-07, 05:00 AM	Who needs fireballs when you're the chosen of Grummsh?
GothicDan 03-23-07, 06:53 AM	I thought it was a singular item? You couldn't have a better "version" of it, then; just an upgrade on an old one.
Stigger 03-23-07, 07:05 AM	Since when did reality have anything to do with D&D? :P
Lord Karsus 03-23-07, 10:18 AM	Since when did reality have anything to do with D&D? :P -You mean ebon-skinned Elves don't float around, hurling green rays of disintigration, being chased by large groups of armed and armored men and women where you live? Nothing of that sort?
ShadezofDis 03-23-07, 10:34 AM	-You mean ebon-skinned Elves don't float around, hurling green rays of disintigration, being chased by large groups of armed and armored men and women where you live? Nothing of that sort? Dude. . . those aren't elves. . . That's just the clubs getting out, it seems like darkelves to be sure but in fact those are just club kids getting chased home by the cops ;D
Lord Karsus 03-23-07, 10:48 AM	Dude. . . those aren't elves. . . That's just the clubs getting out, it seems like darkelves to be sure but in fact those are just club kids getting chased home by the cops ;D -Oh.
zerodeviere 03-23-07, 01:47 PM	First off drizzt is not lvl 16 his race adds 2 lvls so he is considered lvl 18...... even though he lost most of his racial bonuses like levitation and most likely his magic resistance the books still have him at lvl 16 +2 for his race. also RAS has given him stats by contributing to the Menzoberranzan box set. there is nothing in the forgotten realms main book to indicate that O'bould could ever take drizzt. they need to add about 10 levels to O'bould to make that happen they dont have him with any special armor either or have his stats boosted by the ritual he endured. so some things need to be fixed in that regard. and the only way Drizzt couldn't beat him is to give him Armor that A sword like Twinkle cant cut thru. odd i don't seee any armor like that in the role playing books so as a writer there has to be a reason RAS wants to keep O'bould alive so lets just see what he has in mind. and i guess im just missing the one where Jarlaxle and Drizzt ever fought one on one as far as Jarlaxle pawning him goes. and also keep in mind that while Drizzt does wear Dantrag's Bracers of the blinding strike it wouldnt help him in a fight as far as making him significantly more powerful. by the rules they wouldnt even work being on his legs as they are but again RAS is mixing it up a bit. but he surely doesnt get the extra attack per round for having them there.
zerodeviere 03-23-07, 01:52 PM	also should add that while it suggest that he has Lloth's favor it doesn't say it for a fact... only that one of Lloth's priestess believe it to be true. if it is it is so Drizzt existance can cause Chaos among her people whom she doesnt care about in the first place only the chaos they provide as an ammuse ment to her and if you look in the history of the realms O'bould is VERY VERY old. his name is mentioned alot farther back that you would think an orc could live.
zerodeviere 03-23-07, 02:10 PM	I only started posting today so still trying to figure out all this post stuff wish i could respond to it all not that i view my opinion as infallable but it is another way to look at things. some things need pointed out though. for one RAS was atleast a roleplayer and he does use the rules for roleplaying in his books but he adds things like Heart to his characters like Drizzt and that gives them an edge especially where his "Legend" preceeds him. him with heart and his enemies with a little fear at facing him definately would give him an edge. like him fighting a merilith. she may weild 6 weapons but that doesnt give her the feats to use extra attacks with them so factor that sort of thing into your thinking as well.plus Drizzt's 1 lvl of barbarian allows him to berserk giving him another small advantage. also there are things like Entreri being called the most dangerous assassin on the planet. lol he only has 1 assassin lvl. he is dangerous because his reputation causes fear in those he kills. but someone that is lvl 18 like him but say a 8th lvl fighter and a 10th lvl assassin who actually uses poisons and sneak attacks and such would kill him before he knew they were there. a more deadly assassin is the assassin who remains unknown.
GothicDan 03-23-07, 02:11 PM	I am pretty sure that was a different one.
zerodeviere 03-23-07, 02:23 PM	as a correction i looked it up and marilith's do get the multiweapon fighting but the lesser ones at +10 to hit dont help alot.. and also Alustrial didnt cast the mythal over silverymoon it was mainly a man who studdied the nether scrolls in myth drannor before coming to silverymoon and helped start the city i believe. and even it is not a true mythal but a humanized version of a mythal only elves can cast a true mythal.
Lord Karsus 03-23-07, 02:26 PM	First off drizzt is not lvl 16 his race adds 2 lvls so he is considered lvl 18...... even though he lost most of his racial bonuses like levitation and most likely his magic resistance the books still have him at lvl 16 +2 for his race. -No, Drizzt is level 16. His LA doesn't add two levels, it just makes his the equivalent of something two levels higher. A slight difference, but a difference none the less. also RAS has given him stats by contributing to the Menzoberranzan box set. there is nothing in the forgotten realms main book to indicate that O'bould could ever take drizzt. they need to add about 10 levels to O'bould to make that happen they dont have him with any special armor either or have his stats boosted by the ritual he endured. -Depending on the circumstance, a 1st level character has the potential to defeat/kill a 20th level character. No matter who you are, a dagger to the heart, or a slit throat still ends your life. ...and if you look in the history of the realms O'bould is VERY VERY old. his name is mentioned alot farther back that you would think an orc could live. -There are multiple Oboulds. It, most likely, is a hereditary name. also there are things like Entreri being called the most dangerous assassin on the planet. lol he only has 1 assassin lvl. -An assassin is a job, as well as a PrC. One needs not be be an Assassin PrC to be an actual Assassin. he is dangerous because his reputation causes fear in those he kills. -He does have the skill to back that fear up, however. but someone that is lvl 18 like him but say a 8th lvl fighter and a 10th lvl assassin who actually uses poisons and sneak attacks and such would kill him before he knew they were there. a more deadly assassin is the assassin who remains unknown. -Depends on the situation. Like I said before, anybody has the potential to kill anybody, depending on the circumstances.
Lord Karsus 03-23-07, 02:28 PM	and even it is not a true mythal but a humanized version of a mythal only elves can cast a true mythal. -There are two kinds of Mythals- Wizardly Mythals, and True Mythals. -Wizardly Mythals are created by wizards, via the use of mundane magic, and Epic Magic. True Mythals are created by Elven High Magic, which is a form of Epic Magic, but is distinct only to Elves. More about Mythals can be found in Elves of Faerûn.
ShadezofDis 03-23-07, 03:18 PM	for one RAS was atleast a roleplayer and he does use the rules for roleplaying in his books but he adds things like Heart to his characters like Drizzt and that gives them an edge especially where his "Legend" preceeds him. him with heart and his enemies with a little fear at facing him definately would give him an edge. like him fighting a merilith. plus Drizzt's 1 lvl of barbarian allows him to berserk giving him another small advantage. also there are things like Entreri being called the most dangerous assassin on the planet. First thing, Drizzt's reputation isn't all that massive. People in the North have heard of him and his "legend" may have spread pretty far but certainly not into the outer planes and the only way the marilith would have heard about Drizzt is through. . . Erutu. . . that Balor dude anyhow, and he probably wouldn't have said word one about getting ko'd by a single mortal. So no, his "rep" wouldn't have helped with the marilith. (note: I don't remember the book with drizzt fighting a marilith but I assume it happened due to the amount of refrences in the thread with no one saying "dude, that didn't happen" The thing about Entreri being called the most dangerous assassin is that it was stated by a character, not as a "the entire world believes this to be so" and even if the whole world believed it, it still wouldn't make it true.
creyzi4zb12 03-23-07, 09:42 PM	Are you kidding me..The best assasin I've read in the Realms so far was Amril Zoan. That guy kicked Elminster's Ass and the rest of the Chosens of Mystra. ANd the best part of it, was that he got away. the only way Drizzt couldn't beat him is to give him Armor that A sword like Twinkle cant cut thru. odd i don't seee any armor like that in the role playing books so as a writer there has to be a reason RAS wants to keep O'bould alive so lets just see what he has in mind. No...there is no armor such as that? Obould's armor is a plain plated armor that has a plus. Drizzt sword is just too thin, or his attacks are just too light to penetrate through Obould's armor. He sacrifices strength for speed, really not a good idea to fight with Obould. ;)
Khaelieth 03-23-07, 11:46 PM	I thought it was a singular item? You couldn't have a better "version" of it, then; just an upgrade on an old one. Unique magic items. Just because it's not listed, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Stigger 03-24-07, 01:42 AM	The best assassin in the realms is the guy you've never even heard of...
creyzi4zb12 03-24-07, 02:35 AM	Nobody's ever heard of Amril too. Even Elminster and the rest of the Harpers had a hard time locating him. And took almost all of them to capture the guy.
Stigger 03-24-07, 04:20 AM	He wasn't exactly an assassin, he was a person out for revenge for his family's perceived sufferings at the hands of the Lords... a little different of a situation.
GothicDan 03-24-07, 06:11 AM	The best anything in the Realms is most likely the one we've never heard of.
Zanan 03-24-07, 06:52 AM	Well, the age I arrived at comes courtesy of the Wizards website's novel timeline... http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/FR_Timeline.asp Given that this is a more recent product, and one that has been compiled by Msieurs Boyd, Greenwood, and Schend no less, I would think that trumps Heroes Lorebook. Of course, it all depends on how one looks at it. :) Now, as I said, Siege of Darkness was the last book referred into in the Heroes' Lorebook and that timeline gives these events as 1358 D.R.. No disputes whatsoever. The only problem that could have arisen was that RAS and the designers of the HL, Donovan & Culotta (who worked closely with all authors involved, according to the credits), mixed up the age of the lass. Won't go that far though.
Another Gnome 03-24-07, 07:23 AM	The best assassin in the realms is the guy you've never even heard of... Oi! That was my line! :D
zerodeviere 03-24-07, 12:10 PM	the assassin levels do make a difference in a good assassin because of the death attack dc and damage and the fact that the sneak and hide skills are not class skills for Entreri's fighter class so he wont be able to have many points in it. of course there are other classes now that also give a death attack but those ase are not classes that Entreri has. yes a sword or dagger used correctly can kill anyone but in game terms that is only practical when someone is sleeping. cant really throw a dagger and kill someone with that single throw unless they are a first maybe second level npc and even then it wouldn't happen every time you try like Entreri seems to do. and even an orc can go around and secretly kill 100 1st level merchants while they sleep and become a feared assassin. but that doesn't make him a great assassin.
zerodeviere 03-24-07, 12:13 PM	and the book Drizzt fought the Marilith in was Passage to Dawn where Errtu was banished a second time and Wulfgar was freed.
zerodeviere 03-24-07, 12:20 PM	Part of what originally made drizzt was that his Dexterity was so high and the Menzoberranzan box set his Character info said that his strikes are so precise that if he exceeds his attack by what he needs to hit his enemy by 5 or more then he kills them instantly. which again was a little much but I think RAS was trying to give him a edge so to speak. =-) It is always a good idea to add new things and that was an interesting thing to give him. made him more dangerous for sure but maybe wasn't so realistic .. guess thats why they dropped it. atleast he didn't give him uber powers like that of the chosen who seem to do so little with what they got.
zerodeviere 03-24-07, 12:25 PM	I have never heard of Amril Zoan.. what book is he/she in?
ShadezofDis 03-24-07, 02:36 PM	Trying to apply game mechanics to books is doomed to failure. I can't even really think of a single book (novel) where I feel game mechanics were followed faithfully.
ElGrecoETAC 03-24-07, 03:06 PM	Now, as I said, Siege of Darkness was the last book referred into in the Heroes' Lorebook and that timeline gives these events as 1358 D.R.. No disputes whatsoever. The only problem that could have arisen was that RAS and the designers of the HL, Donovan & Culotta (who worked closely with all authors involved, according to the credits), mixed up the age of the lass. Won't go that far though. I have no way to prove this, but the word out about the Heroes' Lorebook was that there wasn't the same level of author participation in it as there was for the Hall of Heroes (1E). The latter product featured background write-ups and stat-work by the actual authors; not so for the former. This is reflected by the fact that Sojourn and Crystal Shard both give Catti-Brie's age, which, together with the official WotC timeline, contradict the ages given by the HL. That's not a big surprise for me, though. HL, IMHO, was a comparatively poor product at a time when many products featured poor material or were altogether poor (think Evermeet: Island of Elves, where the overwhelming majority of Elf NPCs wielded, and had WP slots invested in, broadswords :rolleyes: ). Not that this is some sort of critical issue for the FR. :D
Stigger 03-24-07, 04:05 PM	The thing with Entreri is that he doesn't strike the way assassins usually do, preferring to let the target know he's there and that he's coming after them. The whole point of the fear of him is that you see him coming and he killes you anyway. From a purely stealth-kill point of view, he's utter crap as an assassin. From a sheer audacity and inevitability of the targets demise point of view, he is one of the best, if not the best. Depends on how you view what a successful assassin really is. As to Amril Zoar, his exploits in Waterdeep are detailed in Elminster in Hell if memory serves. But yeah, I'd agree with Shade, mechanics being applied to novels is a doomed endeavor from the start. And AnotherGnome, it was such a great and true line, I had to borrow it, since it deserved being said again. :D
zerodeviere 03-24-07, 05:08 PM	I am well on my way to starting my first novel for forgott:Pen realms so hopefully it will be good enough to be published but I do plan making sure that all the things that appear in the book can be verified as possible in the roleplaying books with a list of main characters including Items used in the back of the book. I will also put enough information online to be able to use the "PLOT DEVICES" as they are in a campain for roleplayers like myself. If not Published I will still put a copy of the book online so that others can hopefully injoy the visions in my mind. So either way it will all be out there. :)
zerodeviere 03-24-07, 05:10 PM	LOL dont worry i have a spell checker for words like enjoy =-)
Alurvelve 03-24-07, 05:42 PM	I have the birthdates/heights/weights and unoffical write-ups of majority of the Drizzt crew on my thread titled Characters Of R A Salvatore. The info on the dates that I've gotten has come from some devoted Drizzt people on Mr Salvatore's own site. Can't remember Catti-brie's age off the top of y head but at the current year she would be 38ish if I remember right.
creyzi4zb12 03-24-07, 10:05 PM	I have never heard of Amril Zoan.. what book is he/she in? You can find him in Elminster in Hell killing the Lords of Waterdeep one by one. He was also able to kick Storm's a**. Elminster got himself pawned and let the guy go. -The difference between Amril Zoarn and Entreri is that Amril can pass through wards. :P
GothicDan 03-24-07, 11:23 PM	I read Elminster in Hell and don't remember him...
ElGrecoETAC 03-25-07, 01:35 AM	I have the birthdates/heights/weights and unoffical write-ups of majority of the Drizzt crew on my thread titled Characters Of R A Salvatore. The info on the dates that I've gotten has come from some devoted Drizzt people on Mr Salvatore's own site. Can't remember Catti-brie's age off the top of y head but at the current year she would be 38ish if I remember right. Again, Sojourn has a date range of 1340-1347, per the linked Wizards novel dating (above). Catti-Brie is introduced near the tail end of the book, and, IIRC, is 7-8 years old. That would make her 22 + however many years old she was by the end of Sojourn: 29-32 years old.
Stigger 03-25-07, 02:33 AM	I read Elminster in Hell and don't remember him... He was in a chapter segment... wasn't that memorable really. Was the part with the very scared Aleena sitting in her fathers place so no one would know how injured he was. And I don't recall him kicking the hell out of Elminster or Storm to be honest... gave them a good fight perhaps, but that's about it. Given that he did end up captured, and carted off by Storm to make a Harper out of him, I'd say pawning them was a rather large over-statement of the matter.
creyzi4zb12 03-25-07, 02:44 AM	I think that how Amril pawned Elminster was when he was killing Storm. Then Elminster used some magic to transfer the injury to himself instead of Storm's. Then they let the guy go away after killing the Lords of Waterdeep. Maybe it's because Storm fell in love witht he fellow coz he b***f****d her How lucky can you get.
Stigger 03-25-07, 04:50 AM	Um... a little on the utterly tasteless side there Creyzi. I doubt it had anything to do with love, more like seeing the man's potential once he got past the rage he was dealing with. Respect of a worthy foe was hardly worth that comment. As to Elminster being pawned... hardly. Quite the opposite really, considering he took the damage upon himself and had the fellow quite helpless while doing it. Storm and Elminster showed him mercy, something those of good alignment tend to do... don't confuse that with weakness.
Zevox 03-25-07, 10:32 AM	Creyzi seems to have a tendency to do a lot of exaggerating where the exploits of characters he likes are concerned. I'd take anything he says about such a character with a grain of salt. Zevox
GothicDan 03-25-07, 10:35 AM	I think Crayzi deserves to be an orc...
creyzi4zb12 03-25-07, 11:20 AM	But of course :D Exaggeration is such a powerful tool. Especially when you're leading a bunch of brainless brutes. It's one of the great qualities my orc/scro general has in my fanfiction has now. The ability to exaggerate things, bringing forth tons of orcs in his campaign due to his promises.
GothicDan 03-25-07, 11:21 AM	That doesn't say much for the orcish race, y'know.
creyzi4zb12 03-25-07, 11:22 AM	The exagerration tool is just an idea I just found out about orcs. And I think it really works, considering the fact that I once lead a couple of fellows not too familiar about goals during my high school years. BTW: U can find my fanfics in the Once Upon A Time forums .
Stigger 03-25-07, 02:23 PM	:banghead: There's a difference between exaggeration and misrepresentation, and your treading perilously close towards the latter. :rolleye2:
Entreri1000 03-25-07, 03:09 PM	At the end of the day, Drizzt can kick any warriors ass, as he has proven many times, REGARDLESS OF LEVEL. Shrru6pack watch out, the little dark skin devil may skewer you.
Grandmaster_Kane 03-25-07, 04:22 PM	everbody is forgetting drizzts 1 level in devish lol so he is level 19 if racial adjustment is included so he is almost epic
Zevox 03-25-07, 07:33 PM	everbody is forgetting drizzts 1 level in devish lol He doesn't have any levels in that class. Hes a Fighter 10/Barbarian 1/Ranger 5 by his canon write-up. Personally, I'd argue that that class doesn't fit him anyway, but I'll not start a big argument over it. Zevox
creyzi4zb12 03-25-07, 09:33 PM	At the end of the day, Drizzt can kick any warriors ass, as he has proven many times, REGARDLESS OF LEVEL. Shrru6pack watch out, the little dark skin devil may skewer you. Yes, but there's only one problem, the possibilities about him kicking anybody's epic ass hasn't happened yet. Now he being defeated by Obould once, that's not a possibility but a fact. :D :banghead: There's a difference between exaggeration and misrepresentation, and your treading perilously close towards the latter. :rolleye2: There is also a similarity. :D But that's the point. I'm exaggerating the things to make u misinterpret it. To force u in getting a better view of orcs.
Stigger 03-25-07, 10:17 PM	The only thing you're forcing me into is into thinking less of your scholarship abilities... as to misinterpretation, that doesn't really serve you that well. A well reasoned arguement demonstrating why orcs should be thought of better will work far better (with me anyway) than a demonstration of warped logic and twisted word play, with no real validity beyond being a frustrating example of your having to resort to such games to get a point across rather than relying on actual logical discourse and debate.
creyzi4zb12 03-25-07, 11:02 PM	Hey don't ruin my style, It's what made me a god when I was still living in the country. But I am flexible enough make u think twice. No wait...Scratch that. I like it, so I'm staying. :D
Lord Karsus 03-26-07, 12:17 AM	At the end of the day, Drizzt can kick any warriors ass, as he has proven many times, REGARDLESS OF LEVEL. Shrru6pack watch out, the little dark skin devil may skewer you. -No, just no. I am well on my way to starting my first novel for forgott:Pen realms so hopefully it will be good enough to be published but I do plan making sure that all the things that appear in the book can be verified as possible in the roleplaying books with a list of main characters including Items used in the back of the book. I will also put enough information online to be able to use the "PLOT DEVICES" as they are in a campain for roleplayers like myself. If not Published I will still put a copy of the book online so that others can hopefully injoy the visions in my mind. So either way it will all be out there. :) -Yeah...Wizards of the Coast doesn't accept unsolicited scripts. So, you might as well get on the back of the "I'm the next up-and-coming big WotC writer, they just don't know it yet" line. Sorry to crush your dreams there, but being as that I am experienced in the field of dream crushing, I figure that I might as well add you to my ever-growing list of people whose dreams I have crushed. I'm experienced, and I make it as pain-free as possible. -Oh, and posting it on the internet still is, you know, copyright infringement. Not that WotC will actually pursue it, but just so you know...
creyzi4zb12 03-26-07, 03:04 AM	Why don't u put in a link. I'm sure there's some way that we could help u improve the idea.
Stigger 03-26-07, 04:49 AM	Style... that's one word for it I suppose. I'd choose something a bit less complimentary personally. :P Personally, I'd much rather be a game designer than a writer... seems your open to considerably less abuse than as a novelist for the Realms. Well, mostly anyway... :D
Critalondel 03-26-07, 04:54 AM	At the end of the day, Drizzt can kick any warriors ass, as he has proven many times, REGARDLESS OF LEVEL. Except that, well, that's just plain not how levels WORK. Period.
Stigger 03-26-07, 05:03 AM	I suspect Entreri was getting at the idea that levels don't matter when it comes to Drizzt's fights in novels. ;)
creyzi4zb12 03-27-07, 10:37 AM	At the end of the day, Drizzt can kick any warriors ass, as he has proven many times, REGARDLESS OF LEVEL. Shrru6pack watch out, the little dark skin devil may skewer you. Another example of that would be Obould beating Drizzt REGARDLESS OF LEVEL.
ShadezofDis 03-27-07, 10:50 AM	Another example of that would be Obould beating Drizzt REGARDLESS OF LEVEL. Which can be easily explained by the gaining of favor and losing of favor of his patron god (I can't spell that orcish nonsense *g*) So please don't go spouting off unfounded nonsense.
Karsus the Mad 03-27-07, 12:20 PM	Another example of that would be Obould beating Drizzt REGARDLESS OF LEVEL. And that'd be an example of when Hell freezes over. Mechanically, by game rules, Drizzt kicks his ass as a better warrior. By novels, written by R.A. Salvatore (which THANKFULLY don't pay attention to little numbers that little kids can't count and even smaller adults that can't comprehend such things as depth can't comprehend), Drizzt kicks his ass as a better warríor. Dude, just face it, Orcs in modern fantasy were originally designed in the beginning by Tolkien to be nameless Fodder to be cut down by sharp and dull blades alike. Almost every game setting since then has held to that ideal. Orcs are blade dullers, meant to be cut down mindlessly by heroes. Why? Because they're not worth comprehensive thought, let alone any form of idolization. They have gods because DnD indirectly demands that such a prevalent practice race has deities. You have any clue as to how many hundreds of thousands of orcs I slaughtered, all just so I could discover the best recipe for orc-kebab? That's not including orcchep sauce, orcalsa, or stuffed orc. You know hard it is? Washing the orc (more than standard...they are smelly bastards afterall!). Then you marinade it for a bit. After about 24 hours, you roast it. Slowly of course. And you obvious must continue marinading it, at least every hour. Oh yeah, makes the best Orc Roast you can imagine...hmmmm...yummmm.... silly orcs. Good for knifing or eating....
Khaelieth 03-27-07, 12:54 PM	And then you've got all the Elven ways of killings orcs - orc on spear, orc on longspear, orc on longsword, toasted orc, crisp orc, skinned orc, tickled-to-death orc, blown-up orc, exploded orc, imploded orc, combusted orc, orc on lollipop, skewered orc, decapitated orc etc etc. But novels are different when compared to stats. Don't bother about stats.
Stigger 03-27-07, 03:44 PM	Orc tartar... usually a hit with most dragons. Which I suspect is the orc's true place in the Omniverse's ecology, an abundant foodsource for dragons and other superior predators.
theartistformerlyknownas 03-27-07, 05:02 PM	Don't forget orc roast, orc chops, orc rinds and orc ribs... Of course, orc products aren't kosher, but man are they delicious!
Lord Karsus 03-27-07, 05:23 PM	You have any clue as to how many hundreds of thousands of orcs I slaughtered, all just so I could discover the best recipe for orc-kebab? That's not including orcchep sauce, orcalsa, or stuffed orc. You know hard it is? Washing the orc (more than standard...they are smelly bastards afterall!). Then you marinade it for a bit. After about 24 hours, you roast it. Slowly of course. And you obvious must continue marinading it, at least every hour. Oh yeah, makes the best Orc Roast you can imagine...hmmmm...yummmm.... silly orcs. Good for knifing or eating.... -That's why he the MAD one... Of course, orc products aren't kosher, but man are they delicious! -Well, thet are pork products, after all! :rimshot:
Zevox 03-27-07, 06:47 PM	Dude, just face it, Orcs in modern fantasy were originally designed in the beginning by Tolkien to be nameless Fodder to be cut down by sharp and dull blades alike. [Tolkien Geek]Actually, Tolkien's Orcs were designed to be the legions of the Dark Lord Morgoth, and later Sauron. They were none too bright (which was usually their downfall in battle - poor tactics against those of the Elves and Humans), but they were quite strong warriors, hardly fodder for anyone short of the most skilled heroes. Morgoth nearly conquered Middle Earth using mostly just them, his Balrogs (who were few in number - the best references indicate no more than 7), and the Dragon Glaurung. D&D was what turned them into fodder for anyone with a weapon or spell at his disposal.[/Tolkien Geek] Zevox
Orog 03-27-07, 09:04 PM	My players are afraid of orcs, got there butts handed to them a couple times for underestimating them. :smirk:
Karsus the Mad 03-27-07, 09:25 PM	[Tolkien Geek]snip[/Tolkien Geek] I'm not a Tolkien geek myself, but I want to clarify. I meant fodder as in 2. people considered as readily available and of little value: cannon fodder. I should have used the term "cannon fodder". -That's why he the MAD one... :king: That I am, that I am. My madness allows me to exist in bliss and keeps interesting meals in your belly:cloud9: Edit: Just noticed I didn't include smileys in that last post to show creyzi I was playing with him/her. Sorry about that:)
BrennonGoldeye 03-27-07, 09:51 PM	Ah Túrin Turambar. Now thats drama. Makes an ape proud.:D
Karsus the Mad 03-27-07, 09:52 PM	Ah Túrin Turambar. Now thats drama. Makes an ape proud.:D I believe my own insanity has affected you...it's a radius effect afterall...
Lord Karsus 03-27-07, 11:07 PM	I believe my own insanity has affected you...it's a radius effect afterall... -He does spend more time around us than most. He's also going to be coming around to feed the dog, when we are on vacation.
Karsus the Mad 03-27-07, 11:36 PM	Where we going?:bigeyes:
Lord Karsus 03-27-07, 11:40 PM	Where we going?:bigeyes: -I haven't decided yet. Want to go to Osse?
Karsus the Mad 03-27-07, 11:46 PM	Sounds good. I've been working on detailing it and I want to see how accurate I am.
Lord Karsus 03-27-07, 11:56 PM	-I hear that Hypnotic Patterns twirl the opposite way there...
zerodeviere 03-28-07, 03:06 PM	-No, just no. -Yeah...Wizards of the Coast doesn't accept unsolicited scripts. So, you might as well get on the back of the "I'm the next up-and-coming big WotC writer, they just don't know it yet" line. -Oh, and posting it on the internet still is, you know, copyright infringement. Not that WotC will actually pursue it, but just so you know... Actually It's not copyright infringement if its put on the internet.. only if i try to make money off of it.... otherwise people who roleplay online with live people in the chat rooms and put their stories on their websites would fall into that catagory. and im not a Dreamer who can be crushed lol. either it will happen or it wont. Me writing it, is more important than a particular Publishing company picking it up. and dont thing im stupid enough to take any chances with it though. I of course would change places names and such that it would not reveal what world setting it is on so it could be forgotten realms or dragon lance or even just a world that I made up myself so that once it is done and read by others. it could be incorperated to any setting or none at all. that way no copyright issues and wider range of Publishers who could pick it up if they wanted to.
Lord Karsus 03-28-07, 03:12 PM	Actually It's not copyright infringement if its put on the internet.. only if i try to make money off of it.... otherwise people who roleplay online with live people in the chat rooms and put their stories on their websites would fall into that catagory. -It is, and they do. It's called enforcement disgression. -Here: Legal Issues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_with_fan_fiction)
AlorinDawn 03-28-07, 06:22 PM	Drizzt is good certainly, but by far not the best. Ed Greenwood's article on the best swordsman in the realms placed Drizzt down the list a bit. As for saying Drizzt could take a 25th level fighter...only if that fighter was asleep, bound, and gagged. Our little elf here has jack crap for hit points, but I realize the folks that did the stating of the major names from the novels were somewhat clueless (Yeah,,,,,,, Blackstaff is a better painter than he is at spell craft). I'm sure if R.A. Salvatore statted Drizzt he would be a little more formidable. Spellcaster wise a high level caster with a bit of distance between herself and Drizzt would toast Drizzt or far worse. Just remember game mechanics and the novels do not go hand in hand.
Entreri1000 03-28-07, 06:32 PM	"I suspect Entreri was getting at the idea that levels don't matter when it comes to Drizzt's fights in novels" Finally somebody understands. Drizzt beats a 24th level Zakanfein (who is a pure level 24 fighter!), but has trouble with at most a 12th level fighter in Obould, only able to go toe-to-toe in the end. Levels do not matter. My argument stems from the fact that a lot of people were saying there was no way Drizzt could beat a level 20 fighter. Which is obviously false, as shown by him beating Zakanfein. Drizzt can beat a level 25 fighter, if RAS wants him to, he has already beaten a level 24th fighter.
ElGrecoETAC 03-28-07, 08:05 PM	I'm not sure the above are good examples... as Drizzt beats NEITHER of the two. He lands a kick on Zak; he lands more than one blow on Obould. Neither strike is meaningful ultimately. They hardly affect their targets, and in no way ensure victory. Zaknafein teaches Drizzt that sour lesson in that same scene, and Obould leaves Drizzt much the worse for wear. ;) Ironically, though, I do agree with your points regarding levels and novels. :)
BrennonGoldeye 03-28-07, 08:19 PM	"I suspect Entreri was getting at the idea that levels don't matter when it comes to Drizzt's fights in novels" Finally somebody understands. Drizzt beats a 24th level Zakanfein (who is a pure level 24 fighter!), but has trouble with at most a 12th level fighter in Obould, only able to go toe-to-toe in the end. Levels do not matter. My argument stems from the fact that a lot of people were saying there was no way Drizzt could beat a level 20 fighter. Which is obviously false, as shown by him beating Zakanfein. Drizzt can beat a level 25 fighter, if RAS wants him to, he has already beaten a level 24th fighter. Listen to the Greek, and my best wishes on getting a date to the Sadie Hawkins dance. :cheer:
slainethehornedgod 03-28-07, 10:49 PM	I love these 'Drizzt is God' threads. :whatsthis They pop up every few months and are always filled with the same old posts. And for some reason I still pour over every one. Its kinda like watching little kids racking thier dads balls on AFV. Heh, I could watch that stuff for hours and hours. :rofl: Anyway, back to the topic. I've always wondered why everyone brings up Zak when stating what a 'uber-drow' Drizzt is. As I recall Zaks internal monologue said something like 'one day he will be the best fighter amoung us even better then me' or something like. And in thier final battle Zak got bull rushed into a pool of acid after gaining some small control of himself (memory's a bit fuzzy here). Zak never said 'OMG Drizzt is the uber-est drow around and completely owns me'. If you challenge me here I'd like to see the book, page and paragraph referenced. Assuming Zak did think Drizzt was so uber then wouldn't it be more reasonable to consider that Zaks level may be a bit inflated? If every drow fighter school had a level 25 at the head it boggles the mind to think of what that would mean to FR. And when you look at the average drow in the MMI, Zak would've been just as famous as a 12-16 level fighter or even a 9th for that matter. In the recent novels RAS seems to have calmed down on Drizzt's uberness. Drizzt had problems with Gerti's frost giant guards and fought Obould to one loss and one draw in the Hunter trilogy. Really he hasn't done anything too bizarre for a character of his CR since the Balor and frankly, Balors in AD&D and 3.0 were more bark then bite.
Critalondel 03-29-07, 02:02 AM	"I suspect Entreri was getting at the idea that levels don't matter when it comes to Drizzt's fights in novels" Finally somebody understands. Drizzt beats a 24th level Zakanfein (who is a pure level 24 fighter!), but has trouble with at most a 12th level fighter in Obould, only able to go toe-to-toe in the end. Levels do not matter. My argument stems from the fact that a lot of people were saying there was no way Drizzt could beat a level 20 fighter. Which is obviously false, as shown by him beating Zakanfein. Drizzt can beat a level 25 fighter, if RAS wants him to, he has already beaten a level 24th fighter. Yeah, but the thing is, you're on a GAMING board, posting in a sub forum dedicated to Forgotten Realms GAMING. So, somewhat ironically, it's the novels that don't matter and the game stats that do (the opposite of Salvatore's thinking, and your own). So you're wrong. In a D&D game, the odds are very much not in Drizzt's favor when it comes time to get in a swordfight with a 24th level Fighter. Period.
Stigger 03-29-07, 07:53 AM	I got the impression that Entreri was putting up an observation of RAS style and tendencies, more than some indication of personal preference... subtle rebuke perhaps even. Could be wrong about that, but that was the impression he left me with.
creyzi4zb12 03-29-07, 08:55 AM	[QUOTE=Karsus the Mad;11902262]And that'd be an example of when Hell freezes over. Mechanically, by game rules, Drizzt kicks his ass as a better warrior. By novels, written by R.A. Salvatore (which THANKFULLY don't pay attention to little numbers that little kids can't count and even smaller adults that can't comprehend such things as depth can't comprehend), Drizzt kicks his ass as a better warríor.QUOTE] Since when did Drizzt do the kicking? As far as I know it was Obould who kicked him in the belly. Then he forfeits the match coz he's chicken with his armor. And the orc enemies of RAS legends has survived 2 trilogies, nothing to be underestimated. The second match was a tie (both had advantages and disadvantages) And of course orcs are made to be fodder. The only problem is that there are just too many of them. And their number is not something to be underestimated with. In real life, take the 300 spartans, the charge of the light brigade, the germans at omaha trying to quell the front of the U.S. fleet, and the germans at Stalingrad for example, they look so tough thinkin they could beat their enemies using skill, further advanced technology (representing magic) and great tactics alone, but in the end, number is what matters most. It's just like the orcs. They outnumber Bruenor's hoard fifty to one, and the worst part this time is that Alustriel is not helping (so don't count higher magic to appear), they're the ones who'll be attacking, the drows are plotting something against Bruenor (so says the interview at RAS), Drizzt, Wulfgar and Cattie won't be aiding their siege in the first book. I doubt it that Obould's kingdom would fall that easily. And if it does it has proven itself to be pawns much more dangerous than the knights and bishops in chess (metaphorically speaking). Coz it is has survived 3 entire trilogies, and it is in their trilogy that the biggest casualties of the book appear. Delly Curtie, Dagna, Dagna's son, Bruenor almost died, Shoudra, etc. More goody two shoes are gonna be dying soon. And I can't wait to hear about it. :evillaugh:
BrennonGoldeye 03-29-07, 10:22 AM	And of course orcs are made to be fodder. The only problem is that there are just too many of them. I'm not sure but shouldn't fodder be to many to count. That's the point. Anyway.. :dancin: orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc :dancin:
Karsus the Mad 03-29-07, 10:48 AM	I'm not sure but shouldn't fodder be to many to count. That's the point. Anyway.. Cannon fodder, as I pointed out, is a more accurate "fodder" term. 2. people considered as readily available and of little value: cannon fodder. However, given my own, and others, recipes for orcs, the first definition of Fodder is semi-accurate as well. 1. coarse food for livestock, composed of entire plants, including leaves, stalks, and grain, of such forages as corn and sorghum. :dancin: orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc :dancin: And the Bonanza theme song has started playing in my head.
creyzi4zb12 03-29-07, 11:16 AM	The orcs have invaded the thread!! :evillaugh: Mwahyahahaha!!
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 11:38 AM	-Orcs aren't the worst thing to invade. I've seen worse...
Karsus the Mad 03-29-07, 11:43 AM	-Orcs aren't the worst thing to invade. I've seen worse... Clones. It has started, these clone wars:emp:
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 01:17 PM	Clones. It has started, these clone wars:emp: -Indeed, indeed...
Stigger 03-29-07, 03:46 PM	I think I am done with this line of discussion...
Khaelieth 03-29-07, 04:54 PM	If R. A. Salvatore wanted to, he could end the saga of Drizzt with him being killed by a kobold with a blowpipe who then procedes to roast him on "slow sizzle" on a spit over a fire. But that's just wishful thinking.
Karsus the Mad 03-29-07, 09:25 PM	-Indeed, indeed... Seriously, we (the noble beings currently known as Lord Karsus and Karsus the Mad, hath deemed that orcs are planar sodder and racial fodder. You're thus free to make whatever strange recipe we hath provided.... -Indeed, indeed... We must, as true Karsi, destroy the old......let us unite, truly for the first time in Toril's history, ALL magical traditions.....to prove that the tradition of Karsus (US) is not invalidated by Neo-Netherese punks, or pro-elven (I ignore ALL logic because I love elves because they RULE and despite LORE and MECHANICS, are the greatest thing ever! DOO YAHH.......that's what I wish to ignore....) There you go....
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 11:23 PM	Seriously, we (the noble beings currently known as Lord Karsus and Karsus the Mad, hath deemed that orcs are planar sodder and racial fodder. You're thus free to make whatever strange recipe we hath provided.... We must, as true Karsis, destroy the old......let us unite, truly for the first time in Toril's history, ALL magical traditions.....to prove that the tradition of Karsus (US) is not invalidated by Neo-Netherese punks, or pro-elven (I ignore ALL logic because I love elves because they RULE and despite LORE and MECHANICS, are the greatest thing ever! DOO YAHH.......that's what I wish to ignore....) There you go.... -2/3 of Karsus hath spoken.
creyzi4zb12 03-30-07, 12:40 AM	I think I forgot something :dancin: orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc :dancin: Oh, there it is
Lord Karsus 03-30-07, 12:51 AM	-Happy you got that out of your system. Now, back to the..."conversation" (And I use that term very lightly).
Stigger 03-30-07, 02:17 AM	Not sure a feather is quite that light...
BrennonGoldeye 03-30-07, 07:24 AM	Clones. It has started, these clone wars:emp: -Indeed, indeed... My palms are getting itchy. Let's find another clone.:plotting:
Lord Karsus 03-30-07, 10:58 AM	My palms are getting itchy. Let's find another clone.:plotting: -None of them are actually active right now. When one wakes up, I'll make sure that you are one of the first people I inform. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 03-30-07, 10:47 PM	Hmmm. I only need 2 m... Oh well. What has Xun posted lately?
Lord Karsus 03-30-07, 11:04 PM	-No, not really. Oh, you can add Francius to the list, by the way.
Stigger 03-31-07, 04:36 AM	I think I'm going to be adopting a ignore any sign of his existance approach to him and just avoid him as best I can. Unless, of coures, I need some amusement and an ego boost at the time. :D
Lord Karsus 03-31-07, 05:45 PM	I think I'm going to be adopting a ignore any sign of his existance approach to him and just avoid him as best I can. Unless, of coures, I need some amusement and an ego boost at the time. :D -Meh, that probably won't be that difficult. How many times does he/she (Heh) post on a regular basis?
Stigger 04-01-07, 12:43 PM	Fairly frequently of late... not sure about now though. In a way I'm kind of sad that thread got locked, as he can just simply use the excuse that he never got the chance to fully defeat his detractors and that he was never conclusively 'proven' wrong, at least in his own mind, despite all evidence to the contrary. He does thrive on those sheer miniscule technicalities it seems. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I got dragged into that one really, considering I was one of the few, if not only, who was at least trying to remain neutral with him. :thinks: But, when in doubt and as loss looms imminent, damn them all and let loose with a full broadside of inflammatory insults, let the dignity and credibility be damned... :D
Diffan 04-01-07, 02:20 PM	I haven't read the previous pages so I don't know what's been covered, but I'll say that Drizzt is as good as RA wants to write him with respect to the WotC wishes. I honestly like the character and Mr. Salvatore's style of writing (epic sword fighting scenes) and I hope they keep on writing books with him in them. With the fights with Obould, I wouldn't say Drizzt has met his match, though they are alot toughter, and I applaude that. Every hero needs a good kick in the pants once in a while to keep him/her on their toes. P.S. didn't someone already ask who the best swordsman in the realms was? I believe Ed stated that Drizzts AND Artemis were pretty low down the list like 10 or something.
Lord Karsus 04-02-07, 10:00 AM	Fairly frequently of late... not sure about now though. In a way I'm kind of sad that thread got locked, as he can just simply use the excuse that he never got the chance to fully defeat his detractors and that he was never conclusively 'proven' wrong, at least in his own mind, despite all evidence to the contrary. He does thrive on those sheer miniscule technicalities it seems. -I know, I know. It is a loss...:( ;) I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I got dragged into that one really, considering I was one of the few, if not only, who was at least trying to remain neutral with him. :thinks: -You tried to be nice by not appointing a gender role one way or the other. Heh, that worked nicely. ;) P.S. didn't someone already ask who the best swordsman in the realms was? I believe Ed stated that Drizzts AND Artemis were pretty low down the list like 10 or something. -Yes, in their own little groups, Drizzt and Entreri are the best. But, when you zoom out and look at the whole picture, they aren't the best- they are just somewhere in the middle.
Stigger 04-02-07, 03:35 PM	And if you zoom out even further and take all the settings into account, it gets even fuzzier... not that I'm suggesting anyone tries to open up that can of worms.
Lord Karsus 04-02-07, 04:24 PM	And if you zoom out even further and take all the settings into account, it gets even fuzzier... not that I'm suggesting anyone tries to open up that can of worms. -Heh, and that new Cosmology makes zooming out to other settings all the more difficult and head-pain inducing.
Diffan 04-02-07, 04:28 PM	-Yes, in their own little groups, Drizzt and Entreri are the best. But, when you zoom out and look at the whole picture, they aren't the best- they are just somewhere in the middle. Very true, though Drizzt is extreamly young and has a lot of time to become better. (maybe in 4th ed. they'll re-do his stats :))
Lord Karsus 04-02-07, 04:41 PM	Very true, though Drizzt is extreamly young and has a lot of time to become better. (maybe in 4th ed. they'll re-do his stats :)) -What do we need 4th edition for?
BrennonGoldeye 04-02-07, 08:18 PM	-What do we need 4th edition for? I don't think need has been a great part of the criteria of publishing for quite awhile.;)
ShadezofDis 04-02-07, 10:08 PM	I don't think need has been a great part of the criteria of publishing for quite awhile.;) Besides, it seems like math is easier to do than creating consistant, nonRSE "fluff". :OMG!
Lord Karsus 04-03-07, 12:16 AM	I don't think need has been a great part of the criteria of publishing for quite awhile.;) Besides, it seems like math is easier to do than creating consistant, nonRSE "fluff". :OMG! -You both raise good points. Shadez, the only comment that I have is that the majority of RSEs take place in novels, and not sourcebooks, though the new Super-Adventure-Trilogy seems to have a lot of changes in store.
Treymordin 04-03-07, 01:27 AM	But it was mentioned in "Lone Drow" that Lloth was in favor of Drizzt. I dunno how to conclude that, I'm just gonna wait for the next book to come and what Lloth's plans are. How does that make sense?
Lord Karsus 04-03-07, 01:41 AM	How does that make sense? -Lolth favors Drizzt, and said poster isn't going to expand upon what plans Lolth might have for him until more of the relationship is examined.
Stigger 04-03-07, 02:53 AM	At least that's what Creyzi seems to think... but it's Creyzi, so take it with a lot of salt. ;) :D
ShadezofDis 04-03-07, 09:47 AM	-You both raise good points. Shadez, the only comment that I have is that the majority of RSEs take place in novels, and not sourcebooks, though the new Super-Adventure-Trilogy seems to have a lot of changes in store. My comment was a bit tongue in cheek, though it does reflect my feelings on the subject ;) How does that make sense? The theory, which isn't too terrible really, is that Drizzt is a vehicle by which Lloth introduced a huge amount of chaos into the relatively stable Menzoberranzan. I like the theory, it goes a long way towards explaining how Drizzt became what he is today (other than his own personal skills and such) and is really how I feel the gods should be "effecting" the world. (ie. not plopping down an avatar everytime they want something done) But, it is just a theory and doesn't really have a ton of support around here (which is absolutely valid, the comment comes from one single character in a book, that character could be completely wrong)
Diffan 04-03-07, 01:07 PM	-What do we need 4th edition for? We don't, but I wouldn't put it past WotC to make one if only for more $$. Also, I was joking :).
Zevox 04-03-07, 04:05 PM	How does that make sense? It doesn't. Creyzi conveniently forgot to mention that that was just a theory by a Drow Priestess, nothing more. Theres no actual evidence for it, just her conjecture that it might be why he is so skilled and always gets away from Drow who go after him. Frankly, I think the idea is quite stupid, and probably grounded in the Drow's belief in Lolth being superior to all other powers in the multiverse. She couldn't conceive of Drizzt being able to consistently defeat Lolth's servants any other way. Thats what I think of it, anyway. Zevox
ShadezofDis 04-03-07, 04:30 PM	Frankly, I think the idea is quite stupid, and probably grounded in the Drow's belief in Lolth being superior to all other powers in the multiverse. She couldn't conceive of Drizzt being able to consistently defeat Lolth's servants any other way. Thats what I think of it, anyway. Zevox I don't find it all that stupid, he did start out in Menzo and it's not all that difficult to believe that a god could be subtle. And while Drizzt might venerate Mielikki and she may have accepted him as a worshiper (as evidenced by his encounter with the unicorn in . . . oh, the blind dudes grove, whatever his name was) that doesn't mean that Lloth couldn't still use him as a tool in order to promote more chaos among her followers. I'm not saying the above is absolutely true, but I don't find such a theory to be "stupid" :) Nor do I find your theory any less likely. It's just as possible as any other sound theory.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-07-07, 09:53 AM	Well, Obould had too many unfair advantages: Impenetrable armor, and gifts from the Gods. Once Obould minus armor only 'equaled' Drizzt. Entreri at one time 'equaled' Drizzt. But the only time they actually fought to the 'death' Drizzt won. If Drizzt and Obould would have a similar match Drizzt would win for same reason: Drizzt is the hero and $$$ maker. Anyway Entreri is still great, recently beating a 20th level character. As for spellcasters, they are most powerful. If the Drow kept their amazing magic resistance, at least in the Underdark they would have a good time killing spellcasters. Alustriel being afraid of Obould is laughable, not only in terms of level wise, but her powers are far greater, she should be able to defeat any fighter type character. I believe Ed put one of Alustriels sons as #3 on that list, and he is only level 15th. I really do not see how he can be better someone like Drizzt, IMO. If Drizzt can outpace a 6 arm Marilith! You really cannot get faster without using potions, and unless at a much higher level...And Drizzt appears to be skillful as any. well drizzt does get alot of attack "per round" in the books but then again he has been training for decades and in terms of drow years he is like what 13? he isnt even in his prime yet
ghost21 04-07-07, 09:34 PM	although i like drizzt hes not a god , and no way is lloth in favour of him . unless shes using him as some sort of counter-balance or test to weed out the unworthy im a drow fanboy but i feel hes overused time for an evil drow like the valharess from hordes of the underdark to be the iconic drow hes an exception hes a tough fighter and a servivor he would have to be growing up in mezoban (though im unsure if hes been given an epic upgrade somwhere) when people think of drow they think of him and its quite annoying i even had an ingame row of somone claming (this was in wow ofc) that he was a hunter just because of gwathandir (sp) needless to say hes a good fighter but in the books he does things that his stat form couldnt without server good dice or luck
Diffan 04-08-07, 03:52 AM	needless to say hes a good fighter but in the books he does things that his stat form couldnt without server good dice or luck But that's just it, RA doesn't write his books about Drizzt with the game mechanics in mind, never has. I mean how else could Drizzt use his darkness ability more than once in a few minutes, if not working outside the rules of D&D? Also, he's been known to rage frequently (read the Hunter's Blade Trilogy) which unless he has the extra rage feat, it's not possible in the game. If anyone's interested I converted Drizzt's stats into 3.5 ed. Here ya go...... Drizzt Do’Urden CR 18 Male Drow barbarian 1/fighter 10/ranger 5 of Mielikki CG Medium humanoid (elf) Init +9, Senses Darkvision 60ft, Listen +20, Spot +14 Language elven, common, drow sign, undercommon, goblin, giant *************************************** AC 26, touch 18, flat-footed 18 (+8 armor, +5 dex, +1 shield, dodge) hp 124 (16 HD) Fort +15, Ref +13, Will +7 (+9 to SV against spells and spell-like effects) *************************************** Speed 40ft. (8 squares) Melee +3 frostbrand scimitar +22/+17/+12/+7 (1d6+8, plus 1d6 cold/15- 20) and +2 defending scimitar +21/+16 (1d6+7/15-20) Base atk +16, Grp +17 Atk options distracting attack* Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 2nd) 1st- detect plants or animals Spell-Like Abilities (CL 16th) 1/day- dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire *************************************** Abilities Str 13, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 14 SQ SR 27, DR 5/ bludgeoning, fast movement, Rage 1/day, favored enemies (goblins+4, magical beasts+2), wild empathy, combat style (two-weapon combat), light blindness Feats Twin Sword Style, Blind-Fight, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Improved two-weapon fighting, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Specialization (scimitar), Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Oversized Two- Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical (scimitar), Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing), Two-Weapon Pounce Skills Climb +10, Handle Animal +9, Heal +5, Hide +15, Intimidate +2, Jump +10, Knowledge (nature) +5, Move Silently+17, Ride+6, Search +12, Survival +13, Swim +1, Tumble +8, Use Rope +5 Possessions +3 frostbrand scimitar (Icingdeath), +2 defending scimitar (Twinkle), +4 mithral chain shirt of axe/spear blocking, bracers of speed (anklets), onyx figurine of wondrous power (panther)
Alurvelve 04-08-07, 04:55 AM	theres a feat that lets you cast your darkness 3/day instead of once but sadly Drizzt does not have it. Think its called Deepening Darkness, but not sure.
ElGrecoETAC 04-08-07, 10:22 AM	Oversized two weapon fighting... can you offer a description and what book it is in? Thanks! :)
Stigger 04-08-07, 11:15 AM	Complete Adventurer, pg.111, req Str13 and Two-Weapon Fighting, essentially lets you use a one-handed weapon in your off hand as if it were a light weapon, and Fighter can select it as a bonus feat as well.
Philalexandros 04-08-07, 11:59 AM	Thanks! :)
Diffan 04-08-07, 12:28 PM	theres a feat that lets you cast your darkness 3/day instead of once but sadly Drizzt does not have it. Think its called Deepening Darkness, but not sure. I know, I think it was in Races of Faerun but alas, Drizzt just doesn't have enough feat slots to give him that and Extra Rage which I wanted to give him. I hated giving him Improved Initiative and Quick Draw, but I tried to get his stats as close to how RA writes his books. In his novels, Drizzt can draw his weapons so fast, it almost seems magical, and he's always in the fight first, hence Improved Init.
ghost21 04-08-07, 10:48 PM	Seriously, we (the noble beings currently known as Lord Karsus and Karsus the Mad, hath deemed that orcs are planar sodder and racial fodder. You're thus free to make whatever strange recipe we hath provided.... We must, as true Karsi, destroy the old......let us unite, truly for the first time in Toril's history, ALL magical traditions.....to prove that the tradition of Karsus (US) is not invalidated by Neo-Netherese punks, or pro-elven (I ignore ALL logic because I love elves because they RULE and despite LORE and MECHANICS, are the greatest thing ever! DOO YAHH.......that's what I wish to ignore....) There you go.... now now please tont tarnish all orcs with the same brush there are some pritty decent half orcs out there dont drow have the darkness feat now? in 3.5 acording to nwn2 (wich unfortunaly as ive just started to convert from 3.0 due to not playing for a while paper d&d that is ) is what im going by if its wrong please ignore this bit
Lord Karsus 04-08-07, 10:59 PM	now now please tont tarnish all orcs with the same brush there are some pritty decent half orcs out there -I'll wait for you to start naming names. There is only one Half-Orc that I liked (The Half-Orc Eilistraeean from Sacrifice of the Widow), and things just didn't really work out for him...
BrennonGoldeye 04-09-07, 07:16 AM	-I'll wait for you to start naming names. There is only one Half-Orc that I liked (The Half-Orc Eilistraeean from Sacrifice of the Widow), and things just didn't really work out for him... Poor Jub. Seemed like quite a nice fellow.:(
Lord Karsus 04-09-07, 10:27 AM	-Yeah, Jub, that was his name. I liked him, for the few pages that we knew him.
Zevox 04-09-07, 12:17 PM	dont drow have the darkness feat now? in 3.5 acording to nwn2 (wich unfortunaly as ive just started to convert from 3.0 due to not playing for a while paper d&d that is ) is what im going by if its wrong please ignore this bit Darkness isn't a feat, its a spell-like ability. Neverwinter Nights just lumps any and all abilities characters get into the "feats" category for some strange reason. :rolleyes: Zevox
creyzi4zb12 04-12-07, 09:03 AM	-I'll wait for you to start naming names. There is only one Half-Orc that I liked (The Half-Orc Eilistraeean from Sacrifice of the Widow), and things just didn't really work out for him... I have to get hold of that book? BTW: Any orc books that u people know? Like "The Killing Spirit" and some others.
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 09:07 AM	I have to get hold of that book? -Do you? Ok... BTW: Any orc books that u people know? Like "The Killing Spirit" and some others. -No, there are no FR novels that deal specifically with Orcs. There are a few that have Orcs/Half-Orcs as main characters, but asides for those, no.
Karsus the Mad 04-12-07, 09:16 AM	now now please tont tarnish all orcs with the same brush there are some pritty decent half orcs out there Ahh ahh, while drunk I may have been while writing that reply (I'm pretty sure I was plastered as I sincerely can't recall ever posting it...krrmm), I notice that I did not include half-orcs in it;) Half orcs aren't orcs, and deserve a half-hearted attempt at respecting them as 50% more than just fodder.
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 09:26 AM	-So, basically, give 'em some respect ever other time you encounter them. ;)
Karsus the Mad 04-12-07, 09:31 AM	-So, basically, give 'em some respect ever other time you encounter them. ;) Precisely. Stick em' with your sword only every other attack. If they still die, ehhhhhhh. It must of been the weak orc in them:D
Stigger 04-12-07, 09:34 AM	Seems a good and reasonable policy... how does that work with spells though, given that I play wizards. Nuke/pause/nuke/pause/ad infinitum?
Karsus the Mad 04-12-07, 09:44 AM	Seems a good and reasonable policy... how does that work with spells though, given that I play wizards. Nuke/pause/nuke/pause/ad infinitum? I'm a chaotic neutral nutcase. Take out the pauses and you got it right:D
ShadezofDis 04-12-07, 10:21 AM	I actually ran a half-scro fighter/priest for a while in 2E and his goal was to aquire agricultural, architectual and waste disposal knowledge from the "good races" so that he could bring the information to his "barbarian brethren" It was some good times, anytime we came upon a city or town that had a library my character would go in and copy down whatever information he could find on those subjects, pay merchants to store the books he compiled, talk with farmers, builders and others. It was pretty fun having the party saying "Man, we gotta get out of here" and I'd reply "Ok, Ok, I just have two more books to copy and a couple of people to interview and then I'm all set to go" then came the "groan" Good times ;) Never did get the chance to hunt down an Orc tribe and impliment the ideas though :/
BrennonGoldeye 04-12-07, 08:32 PM	I think this thread might be the definition of a karsijacking.... maybe even a karsijackandcoking.... Ah, good times....:D
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 08:33 PM	-We found it like this. Really.
BrennonGoldeye 04-12-07, 08:41 PM	No doubt.. 'At DKI,we don't make threads.. We make them better.;) '
theartistformerlyknownas 04-12-07, 08:49 PM	You might as well be a Harper, LK as much as you interfere with the Realms (or the boards, as it were).
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 08:52 PM	'At DKI,we don't make threads.. We make them better.;) ' -Exactly. You might as well be a Harper, LK as much as you interfere with the Realms (or the boards, as it were). :) -And, LK does meddle in nearly every thread. ;)
Stigger 04-13-07, 01:32 AM	Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup...
ShadezofDis 04-13-07, 09:40 AM	Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup... You know, I'm actually at work right now and AFAIK we made that bumpersticker ;)
Stigger 04-13-07, 06:11 PM	Really? I need that bumpersticker then... wonder where I can get one...
BrennonGoldeye 04-13-07, 07:40 PM	Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup... Without a doubt one of my all time favorite bumperstickers. :D Current Favorite-- "Objects in my rear view mirror best back away slowly."
BrennonGoldeye 04-13-07, 07:44 PM	Really? I need that bumpersticker then... wonder where I can get one... Stigger, I'll have a chance to look to my left on Sunday as I pass the HobbyShop on the way to the range. If I just say 'Hey Stig' can you get a location?
Stigger 04-14-07, 01:26 AM	Divination spells have been on the fritz lately... think its this damned Flu, none of the spells are going off right with all the sneezing and coughing. :(
Lord Karsus 04-15-07, 05:41 PM	Divination spells have been on the fritz lately... think its this damned Flu, none of the spells are going off right with all the sneezing and coughing. :( -I knew this guy, once, who sneezed while in the middle of casting Chain Lightning...Well, let's just say it wasn't pretty...
Mirtek 04-15-07, 06:41 PM	I don't know if THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) has already been posted in this thread, but that's exactly how the majority of the battles fought by Drizzt or Artemis are (note bottom right of the last panel)
Stigger 04-16-07, 01:25 AM	Heh, nice Mirtek... very nice. :D
r6art 04-16-07, 09:05 AM	So, as a lark last night, I was flipping through the "Hunter's Blades" trilogy simultaneously with the FRCS stat-block for Drizzt ... you know, for fun. RAS uses the phrase "Drizzt (or "the Drow" sometimes, for variety) ran (replace with leaped/jumped/danced, etc) in PERFECT BALANCE ..." approximately 4 million times in each book. According to the FRCS, it takes ZERO ranks in the balance skill to be in perfect balance. Now you know. In each book, the Big D (or is that Double D?) tumbles past, around, over or under enemies in nearly every battle. His ranks in tumble? Zero. Serveral times, it is stated that "None other than a Drow could be so stealthy" (or something to that effect.) Therefore, from now on, all non-drow shall be limited to a maximum of 8 ranks in Move Silently and Hide. Any characters with more ranks in these Skills should immediately reallocate those points to Craft (Basketweaving), which will be considered an unlimited rank class skill for all non-drow. No Drow character may take ranks in Craft (Basketweaving). (Look! A limitation!! See, we don't play favorites here!!!) All right, all kidding aside ... either the FRCS has grossly misrepresented an obviously Epic-Level character, or RAS just writes what he feels like and we should stop trying to deify Drow. Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Contentions? Rude Remarks? Fire Away!!
GothicDan 04-16-07, 09:13 AM	All right, all kidding aside ... either the FRCS has grossly misrepresented an obviously Epic-Level character, or RAS just writes what he feels like and we should stop trying to deify Drow. Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Contentions? Rude Remarks? Fire Away!! The latter. He's stated as such (the part where he writes what he likes).
Stigger 04-16-07, 09:25 AM	As has been stated before, and as will probably be stated again, it makes for an exciting read, but a very bad example of a ruleset in action... which is why novels in general don't make it into canon in my interpretation of the Realms, despite official policy.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 09:27 AM	For awhile duirng 2E, one of Steven Schend's jobs was to make sure there was novel-sourcebook (and thus, to some extent, rule) continuity. There's a quote from Elaine over on Candlekeep about this, actually, involving some dice being rolled to verify Elaith Craulnober (I think) could do what she wrote...
Stigger 04-16-07, 09:32 AM	Never read any of the 2e novels actually. Was way more into WoD at the time, though I avoided those novels as well. Usually prefer non-fiction as it is though. Would be funny to watch a drizzt fight actually played out though.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 09:36 AM	I was never into any D&D novels for the majority of my grown-up life... I was heavily into Dragonlance for a few years (collected about 35-40 novels). I have one WoD novel (Dark Ages Tzimisce), which I've never read... I've read the four Planescape novels (which were better than many other D&D novels, in my opinion), and I have read about 10 FR novels, and have 2-3 more I haven't read yet. My favorite series and books include: A Song of Ice and Fire, The Kushiel Legacy, Sword of Truth (has its bad points), Wheel of Time (has a lot of bad points), The Black Jewels Trilogy (quick read), Perdido Street Station et. al. (hawwt), the Elric Saga, and purely for eye candy, some Laurell K. Hamilton stuff (usually finishing the books in a few hours at most). Orson Scott Card is also pretty good, and anything by Neil Gaiman. I'm a huge fantasy freak, obviously, but my collection of non-fiction books is also threatening to take over my room. Currently reading: The Worm Ouroboros, Animals in Translation (linking animal behavior to human Autism), Chainfire (newest SoT book), and Faust.
Stigger 04-16-07, 09:39 AM	Wheel of Time... absolutely hated that series. Was written almost entirely in (insert term for male reproductive fluids here) as far as I could tell.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 12:50 PM	... Bwa? What kind of a saying is that? *Blink.*
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 02:40 PM	Prolly the pain killers talking:)
GothicDan 04-16-07, 02:42 PM	That's the only plausible solution.
King_Neckchopper 04-16-07, 03:38 PM	Stats wise I think Drizzt is pretty weak. I think the villans he has fought are weak to. I got plenty of characters that I know would take out Drizzt and Obould at the same time. Obould is really wak level wise and stat wise. What is he 9th level in the FRCS. Sometimes I think characters in the FRCS are too weak. Maybe they guys I play with are running campaigns that are to powerful. That dosent mean that my characters dont get their butts kicked constantly either. Your really starting to **** me off!!!~ Edward Elrick to Envy
King_Neckchopper 04-16-07, 03:42 PM	So, as a lark last night, I was flipping through the "Hunter's Blades" trilogy simultaneously with the FRCS stat-block for Drizzt ... you know, for fun. RAS uses the phrase "Drizzt (or "the Drow" sometimes, for variety) ran (replace with leaped/jumped/danced, etc) in PERFECT BALANCE ..." approximately 4 million times in each book. According to the FRCS, it takes ZERO ranks in the balance skill to be in perfect balance. Now you know. In each book, the Big D (or is that Double D?) tumbles past, around, over or under enemies in nearly every battle. His ranks in tumble? Zero. Serveral times, it is stated that "None other than a Drow could be so stealthy" (or something to that effect.) Therefore, from now on, all non-drow shall be limited to a maximum of 8 ranks in Move Silently and Hide. Any characters with more ranks in these Skills should immediately reallocate those points to Craft (Basketweaving), which will be considered an unlimited rank class skill for all non-drow. No Drow character may take ranks in Craft (Basketweaving). (Look! A limitation!! See, we don't play favorites here!!!) All right, all kidding aside ... either the FRCS has grossly misrepresented an obviously Epic-Level character, or RAS just writes what he feels like and we should stop trying to deify Drow. Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Contentions? Rude Remarks? Fire Away!! this is awesome and hilarious, good research, Huzzah to you!!!
King_Neckchopper 04-16-07, 03:46 PM	Drizzt is good, but honestly many of his battles have been decided by out the rules circumstances. Which to me means luck. Hey the stories are great and I love the character, but I think his entry is totally wrong. I think he should have more levels in ranger. I also think he should be epic. Look at Artemis' entry, this is supposed to be the most feared assassin in the Realms. Id take him out with a 10 lv Wizard. Easy!
Diffan 04-16-07, 04:23 PM	I'm not a big fan of their stats in the FRCS either, usually why I restat them. Considering the constant influx of new material every month from WotC, I think they should probably re-write alot of the NPC's from the FRCS. I also think he should be epic. Look at Artemis' entry, this is supposed to be the most feared assassin in the Realms. Id take him out with a 10 lv Wizard. Easy! I don't think Drizzt would be epic yet. I mean he's good and all but really, he's done nothing but kill orcs, goblins, trolls, and a few giants since his time up above. That doesnt usually add up to alot of XP. Though he might have leveled once or at the most twice since he was statted in the FRCS.
Alurvelve 04-16-07, 05:57 PM	I agree with Diffan I d not think that Drizzt is epix level (yet) but has gained about 2 levels since his write-up in the FRCS.
Stigger 04-16-07, 06:53 PM	... Bwa? What kind of a saying is that? *Blink.* Referring to the whole multiple women to one studly man situation... and I won't even go into the way those women are written... just makes my head spin.
MsMarvelDuckie 04-16-07, 08:44 PM	I've been reading everyone's posts, and there seems to be one thing everyone is forgetting. In 2E, there is one sourcebook that actually mentions his stats- the Heroe's Lorebook. According to it, he was a 16th level ranger, (which would not make sense from the number/power of ranger spells he can use) but he would have been AT LEAST a level 12 fighter before he even left Menzoberranzan, so by current standards, with everything he's done since HL came out, he should be around level 20! Maybe that would better explain how he has managed to defeat the likes of Obould and others, including Zak. Just a little history lesson there, folks.:twocents:
Philalexandros 04-16-07, 09:18 PM	Not entirely correct. Drizzt was trained by Zaknafein up to 18th level as a Fighter. Following his training in the surface under Montolio DeBruchee, Drizzt's levels were *converted* to those of a 15th lvl Ranger. Note that no 2nd edition product EVER listed Drizzt as anything other than a single-class character.
BrennonGoldeye 04-16-07, 09:32 PM	-I knew this guy, once, who sneezed while in the middle of casting Chain Lightning...Well, let's just say it wasn't pretty... Ouch, that sounds worse than the time I sneezed during a layered shot of Jagermeister/Rumplemintz and blew it out my nose.:twitch:
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 10:00 PM	Ouch, that sounds worse than the time I sneezed during a layered shot of Jagermeister/Rumplemintz and blew it out my nose.:twitch: Sweet J<censored due to new complete ban>s that had to burn. Tequila for me, but thankfully I was already so far gone I didn't feel my nasel being scoured away:D
MsMarvelDuckie 04-16-07, 10:01 PM	Not entirely correct. Drizzt was trained by Zaknafein up to 18th level as a Fighter. Following his training in the surface under Montolio DeBruchee, Drizzt's levels were *converted* to those of a 15th lvl Ranger. Note that no 2nd edition product EVER listed Drizzt as anything other than a single-class character. Ah, yes, quite right, but by 3.5 rules, instead of converting him into a 15th ranger, he should have kept the fighter levels and just added the barbarian and ranger to that. That would make him epic level, of course, but it would make so much more sense in terms of what he can to in the novels, don't you think? Just, ya know, IMO.
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 10:07 PM	Ah, yes, quite right, but by 3.5 rules, instead of converting him into a 15th ranger, he should have kept the fighter levels and just added the barbarian and ranger to that. That would make him epic level, of course, but it would make so much more sense in terms of what he can to in the novels, don't you think? Just, ya know, IMO. That's because in 2e a demi-human couldn't just take up another class. Also, humans couldn't multiclass, thus in 2e Elminster is only a 29th level mage, despite his earlier years as a brigand, thief, and priestess (yes, he was female for awhile). However, 3e allows a better representation of past "professions", allowing a more accurate mechanical representation of a characters background (thus now Elminster is fighter 1/rogue 2/cleric 3/wizard 24/ archmage 5).
MsMarvelDuckie 04-16-07, 10:19 PM	That's because in 2e a demi-human couldn't just take up another class. Also, humans couldn't multiclass, thus in 2e Elminster is only a 29th level mage, despite his earlier years as a brigand, thief, and priestess (yes, he was female for awhile). However, 3e allows a better representation of past "professions", allowing a more accurate mechanical representation of a characters background (thus now Elminster is fighter 1/rogue 2/cleric 3/wizard 24/ archmage 5). Ha, I'm glad someone else remembers El's days as a woman! And demi-humans could take up another class, but they had to take a severe exp penulty for doing it when leveling up. I remember those days... I used to dual class my char.s all the time, just because I hated having to specialize in one thing only, even though I leveled slower because of it. Then again, my DM(who's now my hubby) threw out the max level limits on demis, so it kinda evened out in the end.
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 10:23 PM	demi-humans could take up a second class later on? I had always thought they were stuck with 1 class unless they multiclassed from the beginning.
MsMarvelDuckie 04-16-07, 10:37 PM	Mmmm... Can't remember specifically, but our house rules were pretty lenient about that, anyway. I actually came up with my own version not long after 3E came out- I called it 2.5- it was a mix of 2E and some stuff I liked from 3E converted backwards. It was a lot of fun- the best of both! (And I also came up with a fun campaign idea that unfortunately I could never get anyone to try- I called it ComicD&D)
Philalexandros 04-17-07, 12:47 AM	Ah, yes, quite right, but by 3.5 rules, instead of converting him into a 15th ranger, he should have kept the fighter levels and just added the barbarian and ranger to that. That would make him epic level, of course, but it would make so much more sense in terms of what he can to in the novels, don't you think? Just, ya know, IMO. But it wouldn't have made him epic. The thing to remember is that Drizzt didn't gain XP when he turned Ranger. He didn't add a second class, either. It was a unique twist of the rules that simply allowed him to change class. 3.5 allows us to do things in a somewhat smarter way, nowadays, but the bottom line is that Drizzt was never higher than an 18th level character, and actually dropped 3 levels after learning under Mooshie.
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 03:40 PM	...Drizzt was never higher than an 18th level character, and actually dropped 3 levels after learning under Mooshie. -Worst. Teacher. Ever.
Diffan 04-17-07, 04:02 PM	-Worst. Teacher. Ever. LoL!!! Referring to the whole multiple women to one studly man situation... and I won't even go into the way those women are written... just makes my head spin. C'mon, the guy touches the True Source. He should have women flocking to him with his cosmic power :ayyyy!:
Stigger 04-17-07, 04:44 PM	Insert :rant: here... don't want to think about it beyond that, my head is hurting... :tongue:
GothicDan 04-17-07, 06:21 PM	That's because in 2e a demi-human couldn't just take up another class. Also, humans couldn't multiclass, thus in 2e Elminster is only a 29th level mage, despite his earlier years as a brigand, thief, and priestess (yes, he was female for awhile). However, 3e allows a better representation of past "professions", allowing a more accurate mechanical representation of a characters background (thus now Elminster is fighter 1/rogue 2/cleric 3/wizard 24/ archmage 5) I don't think either represented him perfectly; I'd like to see something more in between, something to reflect El's skills getting rusty (after hardly ever using a sword for centuries, your skills wouldn't be perfect!). Something in between the old representation and the new one would be best, I think. I'd probably just go with Spellcaster Level 29, Rogue 1, Cleric 3.
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 06:30 PM	(after hardly ever using a sword for centuries, your skills wouldn't be perfect!). -You'd be surprised. You're a smart guy- I'm sure you know about muscle memory, especially in high adrenaline situations. Of course, we don't live for centuries, so I can't say that this will still be applicible for Eliminster, but...
GothicDan 04-17-07, 06:47 PM	The human mind is not made to retain information for that long. El being a Chosen stops the physical effects of aging, but not necessarily the psychological. As to muscle memory? I forgot how to ride a bike a few years back, so...
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 06:59 PM	As to muscle memory? I forgot how to ride a bike a few years back, so... -You must be a doofus, then. I used to be a pitcher on a Little League team. After I stopped playing (I was around 9 or 10), I never really had a reason to go through the entire wind-up and pitch routine. A few weeks ago, my little sister asked me to help her learn how to catch. After about ten years of rustiness, I was back in my routine after a few pitches. I changed my wind-up a bit, but it still came pretty naturally. -And, much to my surprise, I am still able to throw a decent two-seamer, a sub-par slider and an okay splitter. :D
GothicDan 04-17-07, 07:04 PM	10 years isn't much compared to... You know... 900+!
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 07:09 PM	-Which is why I said that it might not be applicable with Elminster, but since no one lives for that long, in actual life, we really can't be sure one way or another.
Diffan 04-17-07, 07:14 PM	As to muscle memory? I forgot how to ride a bike a few years back, so... So the old saying "It's as easy as riding a bike" doesn't apply to you? :tongue:
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 07:18 PM	So the old saying "It's as easy as riding a bike" doesn't apply to you? :tongue: -That's why he's a doofus. Dan is the loophole of a lot of things, though. ;)
GothicDan 04-17-07, 07:19 PM	I have a Dex of 3. :(
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 07:33 PM	-A DEX of 3, eh? Why, that's just about as dexterous as an ooze, or an animated object. Good luck with that Achilles Heel.
GothicDan 04-17-07, 07:34 PM	I will build a robot to house my brain! Mwahaha.
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 08:00 PM	-Just be careful of anthropomorphic turtles trained in the art of ninjutsu.
BrennonGoldeye 04-17-07, 08:16 PM	Not defending Drizzt in any way......I do like him personally.....:P That's because in 2e a demi-human couldn't just take up another class. Also, humans couldn't multiclass, thus in 2e Elminster is only a 29th level mage, despite his earlier years as a brigand, thief, and priestess (yes, he was female for awhile). However, 3e allows a better representation of past "professions", allowing a more accurate mechanical representation of a characters background (thus now Elminster is fighter 1/rogue 2/cleric 3/wizard 24/ archmage 5). I will trumpet that I violated the "dual" in dual class during 2E. As long as you have the stats there is nothing in 2E that prohibits multiple dual classing. LOL, I haven't thought of that in years. Ah.....good times.:gel: Insert :rant: here... don't want to think about it beyond that, my head is hurting... :tongue: Now see, at this point you would simply say "tag!". Then you could take a well deserved rest and know that the silly will be harassed, the interesting noted, and the others postponed, or possibly pwned, for you to resume at your pleasure.....:cool: -Just be careful of anthropomorphic turtles trained in the art of ninjutsu. And Nixon. ;)
GothicDan 04-17-07, 08:21 PM	I am beyond such turtles. I am an Omega Level Mutant.
BrennonGoldeye 04-17-07, 08:32 PM	Once again. Nixon...:rofl:
Stigger 04-17-07, 09:28 PM	I like arguing... it's one of my favorite past times really, but in that case it would just get me too mad to think and write coherently.. which I was having trouble with in the first place at that particular junction. Just wait until I shake this damned flu. :tongue:
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 11:31 PM	I am beyond such turtles. I am an Omega Level Mutant. -Smaller things have taken down bigger people. Though not mutants (and from an inferior comic book company), look at Superman and the Green Lantern. A little kryptonite cripples the first, and a little yellow paint KOs the latter. -You know, when I was like eight, in the first comic book I ever drew, I, too was an "omega-level" mutant. I could manifest my psychic energy as bolts that could very in intensity from stunning to killing (think Psyloch's Psychic Knife, but as "arrows"), and I could fly. My character eventually bonded with the Phoenix, ran off into space, and was never heard from again. Yeah, I'm still waiting for Marvel to get back to me on that one...;) Just wait until I shake this damned flu. :tongue: -Man...That flu's really got your number, eh?
Daydreamer 04-18-07, 12:00 AM	Drizzt wins because of plot device. Period. As Todd Lockwood once put it when he illustrated the cover to "1000 Orcs" -- He's a fictional character. If RAS suddenly decided that Drizzt could use Elven High Magic, then you would be claiming that he was the greatest mage to ever walk Faerun, better than the Simbul, yadda yadda. These kind of threads really make me wish that Drizzt belonged to Greyhawk. Ed has listed the best fighters in the Realms and the quote has been posted in the forums numerous times, (Entreri and Drizzt, who are clearly defined as equal by both RAS and Greenwood) were placed somewhere 8th-14th. were was this list put up?
Lord Karsus 04-18-07, 12:08 AM	were was this list put up? -Candlekeep.
Daydreamer 04-18-07, 12:40 AM	forgive my ignorance, but what is that? A book? a supplement? is it official? is it third edition?
Karsus the Mad 04-18-07, 12:46 AM	I don't think either represented him perfectly; I'd like to see something more in between, something to reflect El's skills getting rusty (after hardly ever using a sword for centuries, your skills wouldn't be perfect!). Something in between the old representation and the new one would be best, I think. I'd probably just go with Spellcaster Level 29, Rogue 1, Cleric 3. I don't think they represent him perfectly either, but I do think they do a better job (same with the Drizzle) tho' I don't like the Simbul's stats. I like the combo sorc/wiz, as both fit her decently, but I think they should have stacked her caster levels, despite there not being a rule for it. However, you raise a good point about the skills. I'd prolly limit # of attacks for El to that of a wizard, and give him a penalty on any physical skill use during combat. Then again, as I'm thinking of it, I'd never need his stats:embarrass -You must be a doofus, then. I used to be a pitcher on a Little League team. After I stopped playing (I was around 9 or 10), I never really had a reason to go through the entire wind-up and pitch routine. A few weeks ago, my little sister asked me to help her learn how to catch. After about ten years of rustiness, I was back in my routine after a few pitches. I changed my wind-up a bit, but it still came pretty naturally. -And, much to my surprise, I am still able to throw a decent two-seamer, a sub-par slider and an okay splitter. Ya know, this is embarassing... ....but I can't ride a bike either:embarrass I used to be pretty skillful, dexterous, all that jazz with a unicycle, let alone something that has two wheels, when I was a tyke. I moved here and buying a car was simply out of the question, so I bought a bike. I didn't think anything of it. I got on. No problem. I pushed forward and started peddling. Big problem. I managed to go astray within a few rotations of the peddles, and promptly began a slow twirling descent, like water spinning down a drain, until I thumped onto the pavement in utter, ghastly surprise. My surprise was overshadowed by the embarassment when the bike dealer busted out laughing, and was compounded ten fold when, as I was picking myself up, a little kid that couldn't possibly have been older than 5 or 6 zoomed past on a bike. Sine then, I haven't touched anything that has wheels unless there's at least 4 of them and it also has an engine.
GothicDan 04-18-07, 12:47 AM	It's another FR forum. The various sourcebook designers and authors frequent there, and we have many years of Ed Greenwood's (the setting's creator) answers there in response to players' inquiries. :) For FR, his word is considered canon unless a newer sourcebook says otherwise.
GothicDan 04-18-07, 12:49 AM	To KtM: My horror story goes like this. A few years back, when I was freshman in high school, two of my friends road their bikes to my house. We were on our way back to one of their houses, when one of them stopped for a break. I 'stole' his bike, and started to peddle off cackling - and it promptly turned to screaming when I found myself unable to control the thing. I was serving all over, and almost went right over the side of a small bridge; I instead crashed into the grass right next to it at the last moment. Whew.
Old Sage 04-18-07, 01:08 AM	Re: Ed's fighter/swordsman listing -- "January 23, 2006: Hello, all. Ed e-mailed me this for Dargoth (re: “This particular NDA wouldn’t happen to expire in say August 2006 would it?”): “No.” So there you go. In more substantial news, Ed makes VERY swift reply (which makes me guess he was at work on something that touches on this topic, though I really have no idea what) to Feanor, who posted: “Greetings. A question for Ed : - which would be the best swordsmen in the Realms ?” Heeeere’s Ed: Well, now. “Swordsmen” you say, so I’m going to narrow my reply down to: male living (not dead or undead) humans. I’m going to further qualify my reply by saying that among the most skilled masters of bladework, “best” becomes a matter of opinion regarding style, and the average observer can’t identify (let alone properly interpret) most subtle differences because they’re either dead too quickly, or too dazzled by things that happen too swiftly for them to see properly and too deftly for them to measure or grasp the implications of (matters of shifting a foe just a little off balance, or forcing a movement in stance or location, that will lead to a killing stroke three or four maneuvers later). Moreover, “best” is a steadily shifting title, even when one sets aside divine and magical meddling, because (as with real-world tennis) youthful speed and acrobatic suppleness, plus freedom from injuries and the slowing and crippling effects of aging (on, say, the human knee), must always be balanced against the experience gained in duel after duel after battle: young swordsmen are always rising to the fore, but only step into the ranks of the “best” when those more expert through real-life practice grow too slow to defeat the most skilled younglings (or the younglings overcome their inexperience). I’m also going to restrict myself purely to matters of bladework, in a one-on-one fight in surroundings that favor neither combatant. In other words, I’m minimizing “street smarts” or dirty fighting or the adventurers’ experience in exploiting traction, lighting, obstacles, distractions, and all of that: factors that seasoned adventurers (like Durnan of Waterdeep) can use to defeat foes who might be a shade faster or a whit better in pure bladework. This will work against Artemis Entreri, for example, but also against a host of other adventurers whom I won’t even mention in this reply, but who might otherwise show up in my answer. (Personally, I’d rather not do any “best of” rankings, because I think they’re subjective, snapshots of moments in time that are dated even as they’re made, and a bit pointless. Even in pure-skill tournaments, upsets occur, and if a DM wants to create an unknown who’s better than the individuals mentioned here, go right ahead.) However, I probably possess the best overview of the entire tapestry of the Realms of anyone (though not all that far ahead of, say, Messrs. Boyd and Krashos, closely followed by Schend, Hunter, and Grubb), and can speak from that strength - - not being limited, for instance, by published Realmslore. So you’re really going to have to trust me here, when I say that the best bladesman in the Realms right now (1375 DR) is: Harmel Artru, a darkly handsome, agile, glib-tongued and lady-charming merchant seacaptain (and sometime pirate), who sails The Winsome Lady independent caravel out of Saerloon (and a secret base somewhere in the Pirate Isles). Only a whisker-width behind Artru is Loaros Hammarandar, a broad-shouldered, grim giant of a man who can hurl his prodigious strength and bulk around like an acrobat, and is an ever-wary-of-treachery mercenary warmaster currently under hire by Narubel, who commands “the Swift Sword” cavalry force used to quell bandits and unrest in that city and its surrounding farms (and dedicates himself to quietly eliminating all threats to the current rulership, prosperity, and status quo in Narubel). Close behind Artru and Hammarandar are Skoalam Marlgrask and then Sraece Telthorn. Skoalam Marlgrask is a professional duelist who travels Chessenta as the champion of whomever sponsors him in duels, making huge sums (because everyone locally knows he’s “the best” in duels, and so tries to outbid opponents seeking to hire his services) that are usually paid in gems and used by Marlgrask to immediately buy property, notably an ever-expanding string of inns and taverns. Marlgrask is polite, saturnine, nondescript of looks but quietly luxurious of dress, and seems able to sense danger (crossbow snipers, for instance) before it can reach out for him. He’s known to be resistant to many natural poisons (having learned this the hard way), but now takes great care regarding what he eats and drinks (hence his purchase of many inns and taverns). Sraece Telthorn is a smallish, agile, almost feminine man who can dance, tumble, balance, and spring with a skill and precision matched only by the greatest acrobats (once leaping off a parapet to land perfectly balanced on a sloping, protruding flagstaff far below, for instance, and often springing over the slashing swords of opponents). He teaches “swordplay” (fencing) in Yhaunn and Waterdeep, and is believed to travel between the two by means of secret portals of unknown origin and location. Telthorn lives simply, is unambitious (avoiding power and important patrons, and giving much of his coins away), and is beloved by many pleasure-lasses of Waterdeep, who regard him as a kind friend or honorary brother as well as a frequent client. I’d put the infamous Artemis Entreri after Telthorn, though I could be persuaded to rank two other male human bladesmen between them: Ulmaer Rivrymm of Sheirtalar (a smiling, wax-mustached man of good nature but lightning-swift reflexes and keen sight, who is personal bodyguard to the Overking of Lapaliiya, and can juggle scimitars to entertain), and Aka ‘the Questmaster’ (the mysterious sponsor and trainer of adventurers) who dwells, these days, in the wilderlands of the Sword Coast North. If I widen my reply to include human females, two must be inserted: Ember Tsartaera between Hammarandar and Marlgrask, and Lyaunthra Aldegal between Marlgrask and Telthorn. Ember Tsartaera is the tall, cool of manner and sparing of words Knight of Arms (weaponsmaster, or trainer of bodyguards and soldiers) to Lord Albin, ruler of Furthinghome in Aglarond, where she dwells. Ember dresses plainly, lives in spartan surroundings, and is always under iron self-control, keeping to herself and crafting masterwork swords when she’s not practising using them or training others to do so; she never raises her voice (though she can be coldly, cuttingly firm), is always alert and anticipating trouble, and has an acrobatic fighting style; she’s famous in Furthinghome for catching hurled daggers and arrows in flight. Lyaunthra Aldegal has recently settled in Waterdeep, though she still retains homes in her three previous bases: Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and Secomber. “The Lioness” is a superb maker of bladed weapons and tools (who learned her skills from her now-dead parents), who can resharpen and balance almost any fragment of a mistreated item. She owns and travels between small weapon shops in Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and Secomber, and specializes in finding just the right weapon for a client, and in weapons-training and -practising with select clients. Known to have ironguard protection afforded by a wearable item (a choker or anklet, most believe), she’s also known to be able to withstand great pain, once (in the days before her ironguard protection) slaying a killer who’d put his blade through her hilt-deep, and then (despite being hit by both acid and fire magics) staggering through four rooms to get healing potions, managing to drink them and pluck forth his blade without passing out. Aldegal is a fire-haired, rugged-looking woman who takes numerous lovers, arrives and departs quietly and unexpectedly, and is seldom to be found where one expects to find her. Quite a roster. If I now widen my reply further, to include elves, half-elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes (note that I’m still excluding shapechanging races and multi-armed intelligent “monsters”), I’d put Maethrammar Aerasume between Artru and Hammarandar, and Drizzt Do’Urden JUST behind Marlgrask. However, ask me this a year from now (Realms time), and - - even if there haven’t been fatalities - - these rankings may have shifted around quite a bit. As I said, among individuals of this skill, determinations are whisker-thin. So saith Ed. Whew. Warned you, didn’t I? What Ed and all of we original players share when reading or listening to debates about “bests” and most this or that of the Realms is that there’s so much as-yet-unpublished Realmslore about this everchanging world that Ed crafted and continues to detail and expand, right alongside other writers (so the argument that “well, we can’t go by Ed’s original, we can only discuss the published Realms, that’s diverged so much from his original” goes right out the window). I happen to agree with Ed that rating “best” bladesmen is a bit pointless because it’s so subjective, changes so fast, and has such little practical roleplaying value - - but I fully understand Feanor’s curiosity in wanting to know. It’s a longing to know and understand the Realms more fully that we all share. And I hope we will always continue to do so! love to all, THO"
r6art 04-18-07, 07:17 AM	The limitations that Ed put on that listing pretty much, as stated above, make it useless for anything other than 'color commentary'. Putting aside that the list was limited to human males who wield swords (but not axes, etc), the most telling limitation was the one that excluded "street smarts" ... which is a large part of what adventurers know. The easiest way to see this in game terms is to look at the feat tree versus raw experience. A 12th level fighter with the W Focus/Spec/Gr Focus/Gr Spec Feat tree for Longsword will be a more skilled swordsman than a 20th level Fighter without those feats ... but he'd be a fool to think that he'd win the fight based strictly on that.
BrennonGoldeye 04-18-07, 09:07 AM	-Which is why I said that it might not be applicable with Elminster, but since no one lives for that long, in actual life, we really can't be sure one way or another. Sorry, I missed this one. I fully agree. We are speaking of a man who has an IQ of (very roughly) 270. Hm, does that mean he's as smart as a 3000yr old. Same said man has every bit of the agility and strength (well, probably more) than he did when the sword was his only weapon. The there is that whole "Cabana boy of Mystra(1)" thing. Hmm, guess we should just throw those attack bonuses right out. What use are they for a wizard anyway? Oh well, I know the prevailing opinion about Ed's opinion on the subject, and will defer to him just because he's that darn good. That and I respect my elders(and a few wise juniors), rare as they are these days in this game.;)
ShadezofDis 04-18-07, 10:01 AM	The limitations that Ed put on that listing pretty much, as stated above, make it useless for anything other than 'color commentary'. Putting aside that the list was limited to human males who wield swords (but not axes, etc) That's all any of the "The best at X in the Realms" are worth. And human females were included as well. the most telling limitation was the one that excluded "street smarts" ... which is a large part of what adventurers know. I call bs! At least with the group I run. Those guys would have a hard time getting out of a wet paper bag. (well, ok, it's not that bad ;)) The easiest way to see this in game terms is to look at the feat tree versus raw experience. A 12th level fighter with the W Focus/Spec/Gr Focus/Gr Spec Feat tree for Longsword will be a more skilled swordsman than a 20th level Fighter without those feats ... but he'd be a fool to think that he'd win the fight based strictly on that. However, the game terms on these characters change pretty often. The changes from 1E to 2E to 3E have added. . . I dunno. . . 14 levels to El? 16? (I'm not sure what the first El source is but I'm pretty sure I saw an 18th level version once upon a time). Further, these characters that have been described really only have their levels stated (2E versions, not 3E) and an exceptional ability score or two, not a full detail, so you can feel free to optimize the lower level ones vs the higher level ones (thus explaining why a F9 R7 is on the list or whatever).
ShadezofDis 04-18-07, 10:03 AM	Tangent time! Anyone know some good "out of practice" rules? I'm trying to replicate this in my game because there is a large body of ex-mercanaries that may get involved in some small unit skirmishes and I'd like to represent their rustiness before they get decently blooded (at which time they'll be back to "normal") I'd post this in an applicable place but I heard threadjacking is cool :cool:
Stigger 04-18-07, 10:06 AM	-Man...That flu's really got your number, eh? Going on two or three weeks... I forget which. With the dental work, its all just blurring into a big period of feeling like hell. But on the bright side, I finally have narcotics my doctor gave me, so things are looking up. I'll apologize in advance if I do anything particularly loopy in the near future.
Karsus the Mad 04-18-07, 11:08 AM	Tangent time! Anyone know some good "out of practice" rules? I'm trying to replicate this in my game because there is a large body of ex-mercanaries that may get involved in some small unit skirmishes and I'd like to represent their rustiness before they get decently blooded (at which time they'll be back to "normal") I'd post this in an applicable place but I heard threadjacking is cool :cool: I've no clue if there's rules for such, but from the top of my head, I'd give a penalty to attack, if not two penalties (-1 each, one for rustiness, other for morale: when you KNOW you're rusty, you tend to do even worse than you actually are). Prolly give some sort of negative effect when it came to troop formations as well.
ShadezofDis 04-18-07, 11:35 AM	I've no clue if there's rules for such, but from the top of my head, I'd give a penalty to attack, if not two penalties (-1 each, one for rustiness, other for morale: when you KNOW you're rusty, you tend to do even worse than you actually are). Prolly give some sort of negative effect when it came to troop formations as well. Oh, good call. I like the idea of the morale penalty because that allows for PCs to "hype up" the crowd and remove that penalty (so long as the PCs think about hyping up the crowd ;)) I like the idea of a formation type penalty too, good thinkin boss :)
Lord Karsus 04-18-07, 05:09 PM	I'll apologize in advance if I do anything particularly loopy in the near future. -I'll have Brennon shadow you, just to make sure you don't get yourself into too much trouble.
BrennonGoldeye 04-18-07, 05:19 PM	Yes, the looped shadowing the loopy. Makes sense.:whatsthis
Lord Karsus 04-18-07, 06:25 PM	-I take into account those things. ;)
Stigger 04-19-07, 11:43 AM	Brave Brennon... feeling better today. I think. Hard to say really... So yeah, about those Drizzts... I'm actually really sick of him to be perfectly honest.
BrennonGoldeye 04-20-07, 07:34 AM	I think Drizzt is tired of himself at this point.;)
Stigger 04-20-07, 07:41 AM	Well, I'm sure Creyzi favors that point of view so Obould can finally triumph into greatness :D
XHereticX 04-21-07, 09:03 PM	Last I checked he was only a lv 16, so can't be too powerful. Then again, Obould is only like a lv 12 or something.
Lord Karsus 04-21-07, 09:05 PM	Last I checked he was only a lv 16, so can't be too powerful. Then again, Obould is only like a lv 12 or something. -Read the first 1 to 12 pages. ;)
Stigger 04-22-07, 08:18 AM	-Read the first 1 to 12 pages. ;) Please, don't know if I could take this arguement being revived, rehashed, and regurgitated just now...
Khaelieth 04-22-07, 10:28 AM	Is this thread still going!? Drizzt ain't that good, stat-wise.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-22-07, 01:52 PM	officaily he isnt but novel wise he is a god practically the two really dont match up i use a advanced drizzt personally
Diffan 04-22-07, 02:56 PM	officaily he isnt but novel wise he is a god practically the two really dont match up i use a advanced drizzt personally As well as I. There are just so many new/better sources to pull from to make him a better character than when they statted him earlier.
Zanan 04-22-07, 04:50 PM	officaily he isnt but novel wise he is a god practically the two really dont match up ... Are you referring to the slaughter of orc warriors or him and his pet squaring off against frost giants, balors and mariliths galore? ;) BTW, I recently noted an alarming rate of female fatalities (especially of powerfull / important characters) in these series.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-22-07, 07:43 PM	of course And i see a alarming rate of so and so got "punched" in the back and it is really a spear sticking out your chest or a sword
BrennonGoldeye 04-23-07, 06:27 AM	Ah, welcome to the wonderful dimly lit world of Drow and their novels.;)
Khaelieth 04-23-07, 08:37 AM	How do you reckon Drizzt's gonna die (Unless he ascends to diety status)? I reckon a kobold's gonna get him with a poisoned dart from a blowpipe and spit roast him and eat him for dinner.
Lord Karsus 04-23-07, 09:30 AM	How do you reckon Drizzt's gonna die (Unless he ascends to diety status)? I reckon a kobold's gonna get him with a poisoned dart from a blowpipe and spit roast him and eat him for dinner. -There's no reason to believe that Drizzt will become a deity. If he does, then I'm leaving the Realms for good. -Anyway, he'll likely never die. But, I'd list being stabbled by a randow sword, or being pierced by a randow arrow as likely and sensible ways.
Karsus the Mad 04-23-07, 10:10 AM	How do you reckon Drizzt's gonna die (Unless he ascends to diety status)? I reckon a kobold's gonna get him with a poisoned dart from a blowpipe and spit roast him and eat him for dinner. Of a broken heart, after CB dies an old withered crone, and he realizes he wasted all those decades on Drizzt angst.
Khaelieth 04-23-07, 01:34 PM	-There's no reason to believe that Drizzt will become a deity. If he does, then I'm leaving the Realms for good. He's got a few worshipers already, LK. He's making his own Drizzt-cult with the Legolas heresy (Legolas actually just being an aspect of Drizzt). Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Lord Karsus 04-23-07, 01:59 PM	He's got a few worshipers already, LK. He's making his own Drizzt-cult with the Legolas heresy (Legolas actually just being an aspect of Drizzt). Be afraid. Be very afraid. :) -Good one!
Stigger 04-23-07, 03:53 PM	Of a broken heart, after CB dies an old withered crone, and he realizes he wasted all those decades on Drizzt angst.:rofl:
Philalexandros 04-23-07, 10:25 PM	Drizzt doesn't strike me as the sort that will die a concrete death. More than likely, what would break Drizzt is watching his half-elven children (and, perhaps, their children) die of old age. I can imagine him leaving civilization altogether, to be a Montolio-style loner. He'll probably die somewhat like Brad Pitt's character in "Legends of the Fall"--ancient and felling some dragon (for example).
Crust 04-23-07, 11:21 PM	Not entirely correct. Drizzt was trained by Zaknafein up to 18th level as a Fighter. Following his training in the surface under Montolio DeBruchee, Drizzt's levels were *converted* to those of a 15th lvl Ranger. Note that no 2nd edition product EVER listed Drizzt as anything other than a single-class character. I came late, but this is a good point. Ever since the Heroes Lorebook, I've been wondering what happened to Drizzt's missing 18 levels in fighter (as indicated in the Menzoberranzan boxed set). It made sense to a degree in 2E, as the rules didn't allow that, but with 3E's level stacking rules, Drizzt should have 34 levels in all, easily explaining most every combat experience in his career, with the clear exception being Obould, Chosen of Gruumsh or not.
Zanan 04-24-07, 04:30 AM	This is what you call rules. Humans ... and humans alone could swap classes in AD&D (so-called dual-class characters). People late to AD&D may have crossed this with Baldur's Gate II. Thus, you could start as a thief (not rogue :D ), go to level 7 and then decide (when meeting the requirements) to become a mage. Your thief levels/abilities would stop working (bar AB, HP, saves et al) untill you make it to mage 8 (XP started from 0 all over again). Once you hit mage 8, the thief 7 came back in and you could use all previous abilities (backstabbing et al). Any XP you earned from now on would go solely to the mage though, thus you stopped as a thief 7 abilitywise. That was only possible for humans (and houseruled instantly, no doubt) though. Likewise, multi-classing was only possible for demihumans. Furthermore, this Rai-guy was also a complete no-go, as a cleric / mage combo was no option for "elves", nor would he have been allowed to reach such high levels as a cleric. Anyway, in-game he could never have switched and thus 3E made a good job of converting him to a more acceptable novel-progression. That said, you keep reminding yourself that for the designers of his FRCS version, only base classes were on offer, hence the - what people often cite on here - "clumsy" barbarian level. I'd have made him a fighter / scout and that's it. The rest can be done with feats.
Philalexandros 04-24-07, 08:03 AM	I came late, but this is a good point. Ever since the Heroes Lorebook, I've been wondering what happened to Drizzt's missing 18 levels in fighter (as indicated in the Menzoberranzan boxed set). It made sense to a degree in 2E, as the rules didn't allow that, but with 3E's level stacking rules, Drizzt should have 34 levels in all, easily explaining most every combat experience in his career, with the clear exception being Obould, Chosen of Gruumsh or not. Well, the problem only arises if you think of Drizzt's career as on of "dual-classing." Had that been the case, 3E Drizzt would have been an 18th lvl ftr/5th level rgr (lower classes gets divided by 3, rounded down). Depending on your preferences, a change could be made to Ftr 18/Rgr 4/Brb 1 to reflect "The Hunter." Per the conversion rules, those classes could actually be redistributed to meet your tastes, but the qualifier that Drizzt WAS an 18th level fighter kind of does away with that. The problem, though, is that Drizzt wasn't really a dual-class character. He wasn't listed in his Menzoberranzan stat block as 18th level Drow Fighter/15th level Drow Ranger (16th in Heroes' Lorebook). His class-switching was yet another unique facet to a character who also had a variation of "Devastating Critical," backstabbing abilities, and rogue-like stealth in his repertoir.
Crust 04-24-07, 12:30 PM	If I remember correctly, the 2E dual classing rules state that a character dual classing doesn't have access to that previous class's abilities until he/she has passed the previous class's levels in the new class. Yes, drow couldn't dual class, but I always assumed that designers (or RAS) ignored or forgot that. That having been said, it's my understanding that once Drizzt hit level 19 ranger, he'd have access to his fighter 18 abilities (however few there were... I remember very little from 2E, and I remember thinking those rules made no sense whatsoever). It's my understanding that the Heroes Lorebook Drizzt conveniently left out all information about those 18 fighter levels. Whether it's because it didn't make sense concerning 2E dual classing rules or that it was just easier to ignore those 18 levels, I'm not sure. Whatever the case, the data states that Drizzt was an 18th level fighter when he stepped out of the Underdark. From Sojourn through The Two Swords (maybe The Silent Blade), Drizzt gained 16 or so additional levels. The FRCS Drizzt simply took those 16 levels in ranger from the Heroes Lorebook and morphed them into the "new" Drizzt, still leaving out his original 18 levels in fighter as indicated in the Menzo box. Based on all of the existing data, and considering the stacking of levels in 3.0/3.5, Drizzt should have 34 class levels in all. Forgetting those original 18 levels as indicated in the Menzo box was an error in judgment in my most humble of opinions. At least that's my understanding. If there's some obscure rule somewhere that I've never seen that shatters the above understanding, so be it.