| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| WraithCaller87612-30-07, 07:34 PM | I'm just curious as to what the general consensus among everyone here is, because it seems as if he is well-liked, which starkly contrasts with the opinions that me and most of my friends have about the Sage of Shadowdale... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-30-07, 07:45 PM | I don't like Elminster. I LOVE Elminster!:) |
| GreenKnight12-30-07, 07:51 PM | I don't like Elminster. I LOVE Elminster!:) Well, then why don't you just marry him? :P |
| selunatic239712-30-07, 07:56 PM | He's cool! I have actually used him TWICE in my pert near thirty year old campaign. Both times my players just met him in passing at a feast-ival, and then got paranoid about just what was he REALLY there for? :confused: To the best of my memory, they guessed right both times. once they actually did the dirty work first and then just vanished in the night. I don't remember what the other time was about though. :embarrass |
| Eli_the_Tanner12-30-07, 08:09 PM | Gotta love the old mage, he's one of the reasons I got into the realms, reading his stories of the places and peoples I've come to love. What could you possibly have against the roughish wizard of the realms? |
| Karsus the Mad12-30-07, 08:54 PM | I love him. Well, then why don't you just marry him? Given his shapeshifting, gender bending ability, perky 25 year old physical body (he only appears to be an old man), millenium long experience of whacky crazy sex, near divine intelligence....hells, I'd marry him. |
| Caemun12-30-07, 09:07 PM | I don't like Elminster. I LOVE Elminster!:) But does Elminster LOVE you? One way love is just fascination, or sometimes, just stalking. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-30-07, 09:13 PM | Well, then why don't you just marry him? :P Well, because he lives on another world, for one...:) |
| Rauric12-30-07, 09:40 PM | I like the concept of him. I would use him as an quirky, mad protector of magic than a dogooder/superhero that some DMs use him as. He is not there to save cities or young maids IMO, he is to protect magic itself. |
| GreenKnight12-30-07, 10:06 PM | Well, because he lives on another world, for one...:) That's no excuse and you know it. True Love knows no bounds! |
| Storm_Silverhand12-30-07, 10:46 PM | Heya, I like Elminster well enough. There are other NPCs in the Realms I like better, but Elminster is a very interesting old coot... |
| Crust12-30-07, 11:34 PM | Elminster is definitely my favorite Realms NPC/character. :) |
| GothicDan12-30-07, 11:40 PM | I like him. If El had remained as Ed's original concept, I'd LOVE him. |
| Stigger12-31-07, 01:49 AM | I don't know if I love him per se... but he does hold a fond place in the icy pit that is my heart. :D |
| sfdragon12-31-07, 04:25 AM | I like him |
| Karsus the Mad12-31-07, 06:29 AM | I don't know if I love him per se... but he does hold a fond place in the icy pit that is my heart. :D That's love:love: It's just a foreign emotion for you, so it'll take awhile for you to come to terms with it:tongue: |
| Gladi12-31-07, 06:49 AM | Bright day I don't find anything on him for me to like. |
| Alediran12-31-07, 06:51 AM | I like him, and he is Sha'Quessir, a friend of the elves. He was the final detonator to bring Myth Drannor to it't golden age. |
| ukplayerX12-31-07, 06:56 AM | i found him annoying when i first encountered him! maybe that was the way the DM was portraying him. but then i warmed to him but that took nearly a decade of playing the same (very lucky) character :) |
| Joneleth_Starym12-31-07, 07:50 AM | Elminster is my second favorite character, my first is the great Danilo Thann! |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 09:09 AM | Well, then why don't you just marry him? :P -I'd duel him! :duel: -Anyway, I don't particularly care for Elminster, but I don't have an irrational hate of him. Elminster simply is, that's all. |
| 18DELTA12-31-07, 09:40 AM | -I'd duel him! :duel: -Anyway, I don't particularly care for Elminster, but I don't have an irrational hate of him. Elminster simply is, that's all. :rofl: To be the man, you got to beat the man!!! WHOO!!!:D Every setting needs a good Merlin rip-off, El fits the bill. ;) :P :D :hides: |
| GothicDan12-31-07, 09:42 AM | Every setting needs a good Merlin rip-off, El fits the bill. I think he's a shade more Merlin than Gandalf. :) "Ha, yes! Like lightning!" |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 10:16 AM | :rofl: To be the man, you got to beat the man!!! WHOO!!!:D -Good ol' Ric Flair. I don't like him much, but if you can be in your fifties...sixties, whatever, good for you, more power to you. |
| Kenzuki12-31-07, 10:35 AM | I have mixed feelings about Elminster. In some ways I like him and others I loath him. But I suppose without good guys like him and the Seven Sisters the cool villans wouldn't have anything exciting to do so I guess he serves a purpose. Fzoul: So.....got any threes? Manshoon: Go fish! |
| 18DELTA12-31-07, 10:37 AM | -Good ol' Ric Flair. I don't like him much, but if you can be in your fifties...sixties, whatever, good for you, more power to you. Especially when he has 350lbs of Samoan Buldozer beating his :censored: down!!!:cool: Its karma from all those years of being King Dinga-ling in WCW. :rofl: That fossil needs to go, hopefully Triple H gives him a good sound :censored: kicking tonight on Raw. Yes, my Grandfather got me into watching wrastling as a kid. The "Von Erich's". I remember when the "Undertaker" was known as "Mean Mark". "JBL" was "Justin Hawk Bradshaw". "Mick Foley" was "Cactus Jack Manson". And many others. ;) :P :D |
| 18DELTA12-31-07, 10:39 AM | I just figured it out, Elminster is the Rick Flair of the Realms!!! :rofl: :bow: :D |
| Kenzuki12-31-07, 10:40 AM | lol:D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-31-07, 10:45 AM | That's no excuse and you know it. True Love knows no bounds! But he lives in my head. I can't marry a guy who lives in my head. If that were the case I've have hundreds of husbands by now.:) |
| MerrikCale12-31-07, 10:47 AM | I could take him or leave him. |
| Karsus the Mad12-31-07, 10:56 AM | But he lives in my head. I can't marry a guy who lives in my head. If that were the case I've have hundreds of husbands by now.:) Every archmage needs test subjects....:shifty: Might as well go for the ones that can't complain:D |
| sfdragon12-31-07, 11:34 AM | Especially when he has 350lbs of Samoan Buldozer beating his :censored: down!!!:cool: Its karma from all those years of being King Dinga-ling in WCW. :rofl: That fossil needs to go, hopefully Triple H gives him a good sound :censored: kicking tonight on Raw. Yes, my Grandfather got me into watching wrastling as a kid. The "Von Erich's". I remember when the "Undertaker" was known as "Mean Mark". "JBL" was "Justin Hawk Bradshaw". "Mick Foley" was "Cactus Jack Manson". And many others. ;) :P :D well pm me the results of that will you? El shoots fireballs out of his eyes and lightning bolts from his arse |
| MarkusTay6301-01-08, 12:54 AM | I try to avoid having PCs run into famous NPCs, but I'd make an exception with Elminster. I'm reading through The Annotated Elminster right now, and I'm liking him even more then I did before. He's kind of a tragic figure - a man fated to live forever (or at least long enough for it to feel like forever), watching those he loves grow old and die, and watching proud kingdoms come and go, while he must stand by the wayside, doing very little directly to influence events. Even though he has enormous power, he must use it sparingly, and only when Magic itself is somehow threatened (or someone is using magic foolishly). He doesn't really so much protect the Realms, as he does the Weave. Now, with the Spellplague, I supose he has no purpose.... |
| Philalexandros01-01-08, 10:23 AM | I think he's a shade more Merlin than Gandalf. :) "Ha, yes! Like lightning!" What a great movie quote! Cudos, Dan. I have never read an Elminster novel. I've never used him in the Realms when DM'ing, and I've never encountered him when playing. Having said that, I think he's a good icon for the setting and a fine tool for the DM. |
| Alkasyn01-01-08, 11:07 AM | I try to avoid having PCs run into famous NPCs, but I'd make an exception with Elminster. I'm reading through The Annotated Elminster right now, and I'm liking him even more then I did before. He's kind of a tragic figure - a man fated to live forever (or at least long enough for it to feel like forever), watching those he loves grow old and die, and watching proud kingdoms come and go, while he must stand by the wayside, doing very little directly to influence events. Even though he has enormous power, he must use it sparingly, and only when Magic itself is somehow threatened (or someone is using magic foolishly). He doesn't really so much protect the Realms, as he does the Weave. Now, with the Spellplague, I supose he has no purpose.... After going through Annonated Elminster myself, I also am thinking of whether portraying him in my campaign would be possible:) |
| Ranger REG01-01-08, 03:22 PM | To hate Elminster is to hate the Creator of Forgotten Realms, IMNSHO. :teach: |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 03:28 PM | To hate Elminster is to hate the Creator of Forgotten Realms, IMNSHO. :teach: You alluded to the magic phrase. I can see it now. |
| johnkretzer01-01-08, 04:07 PM | Elminster is a good character...sometimes he is badly misused by DMs or authors...but that is true of all NPCs. |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 04:22 PM | Elminster is a good character...sometimes he is badly misused by DMs or authors...but that is true of all NPCs. -Not Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #2. He made a cameo in Cormyr: A Novel, and Elminster in Hell, and that's all. |
| MarkusTay6301-01-08, 05:23 PM | I believe he participated in the Crusade as well.... Although back then he was known as Militia Soldier with Broadsword #217... |
| Karsus the Mad01-01-08, 07:28 PM | -Not Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #2. He made a cameo in Cormyr: A Novel, and Elminster in Hell, and that's all. He was never misused however.... I love the pitchfork...it's so symbolic. |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 08:23 PM | I believe he participated in the Crusade as well.... Although back then he was known as Militia Soldier with Broadsword #217... -That was before he really settled down and became a farmer. Him and his crazy youth. He was never misused however.... I love the pitchfork...it's so symbolic. -No, he was never misused. -And, in retrospect, the pitchfork was a nice touch, if I do say so myself. :) |
| Zevox01-01-08, 11:07 PM | I quite like myself. Really, I don't see whats not to like about the old kook - half-insane, quirky, powerful, half self-indulgent and half devoted to a Goddess, protector of magic, and meddler in whatever strikes his fancy that he can get away with. Hes quite the colorful character. Zevox |
| MarkusTay6301-01-08, 11:24 PM | -And, in retrospect, the pitchfork was a nice touch, if I do say so myself. :)And very effective at keeping those nasty Shadow Maters at bay. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/AKiller_Tomato.jpg |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 11:32 PM | And very effective at keeping those nasty Shadow Maters at bay. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/AKiller_Tomato.jpg -That Tomato doesn't look Shadow Enfused enough. That's just a Dire Tomato. Be careful not to confuse the two. |
| MarkusTay6301-01-08, 11:53 PM | Sorry, that was his cousin, here's the corrected pic - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/BWKiller_Tomato.jpg And for the latest 'Family Portrait' of Cormyrian Farmer w/Pitchfork - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/american_gothic_small.jpg |
| Karsus the Mad01-02-08, 01:25 AM | That's hilarious MT:D |
| Jedi_Master_Trobon01-02-08, 01:35 AM | Elminster is my favorite charatcer. I know a lot of people seem to have an unnatural hatred towards him. In fact it's boardering on some sort of obsession for some. However, I have always found him to be the best character the Realms has to offer. |
| Gladi01-02-08, 09:17 AM | I quite like myself. Really, I don't see whats not to like about the old kook - half-insane, quirky, powerful, half self-indulgent and half devoted to a Goddess, protector of magic, and meddler in whatever strikes his fancy that he can get away with. Hes quite the colorful character. Zevox Maybe exactly that? |
| Lord Karsus01-02-08, 09:19 AM | Sorry, that was his cousin, here's the corrected pic - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/BWKiller_Tomato.jpg -Yes, that is a Dire Shadow Tomato, alright. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-02-08, 02:36 PM | To hate Elminster is to hate the Creator of Forgotten Realms, IMNSHO. :teach: I disagree, because Elminster isn't Ed Greenwood.:) |
| Karsus the Mad01-02-08, 02:50 PM | I disagree, because Elminster isn't Ed Greenwood.:) I was gonna say that...really. I was even prepared to whip out some long quotes.... Yep. Prepared right after I finish this beer. Drinking one for you to Rino, just so ya don't feel left out *big sqooshy hug* |
| Warning01-02-08, 02:57 PM | I love how whenever another author other than ED Greenwood has some world saving-delima, it's always "Elminster save us!". Yet he's never around. You would think him being in the same general area as the where the twilight war takes place, he would...oh what's the word.....help?. But nah, since Shar wants to destroy everyone including herself, it's no big deal to him. Good job Wizard Coast, no need for ruining forgotten realms story for the sake of a author knowing his/her character the best. Because you know, when my neighbor is dying on his front lawn, I can just say, even though I would want to help, it's not my area. I guarantee sales out the ass if character interaction was allowed. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-02-08, 03:04 PM | I was gonna say that...really. I was even prepared to whip out some long quotes.... Yep. Prepared right after I finish this beer. Drinking one for you to Rino, just so ya don't feel left out *big sqooshy hug* Heehee, thanks *hugs back*.:D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-02-08, 03:06 PM | I love how whenever another author other than ED Greenwood has some world saving-delima, it's always "Elminster save us!". Are you talking about that happening in the recent novels? I can't even recall an instance of what you just wrote. And I certainly don't remember reading any character saying that in the Twilight War series. |
| Warning01-02-08, 03:10 PM | Are you talking about that happening in the recent novels? I can't even recall an instance of what you just wrote. And I certainly don't remember reading any character saying that in the Twilight War series. Wow, did I just get the 1st print of this book or something? WAR OF THE REALMS PEOPLE. IT'S THE 1st SHORT STORIE IN THERE ALSO. PAUL S KEMP: CONTINUUM Oh, and it has your beloved Varra that you missed so much Rino. |
| 18DELTA01-02-08, 03:21 PM | Wow, did I just get the 1st print of this book or something? WAR OF THE REALMS PEOPLE. IT'S THE 1st SHORT STORIE IN THERE ALSO. PAUL S KEMP: CONTINUUM Oh, and it has your beloved Varra that you missed so much Rino. -So is War of the Realms a new novel? :confused: Never heard of it. Thanks.:) -:cool: that Varra is in it. :D |
| Warning01-02-08, 03:49 PM | -So is War of the Realms a new novel? :confused: Never heard of it. Thanks.:) -:cool: that Varra is in it. :D Omg, either your making a joke and it went right over my head or I am at a loss. You are the 5th person who has never heard of it until I came along. Is it really that rare? Should I e-bay it? Christ people. |
| MarkusTay6301-02-08, 03:52 PM | There is absolutely NO book by that title - do you mean Realms of War? (http://www.amazon.com/Realms-War-Forgotten-Anthology/dp/0786949341) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-02-08, 07:47 PM | Wow, did I just get the 1st print of this book or something? WAR OF THE REALMS PEOPLE. IT'S THE 1st SHORT STORIE IN THERE ALSO. PAUL S KEMP: CONTINUUM Realms of War apparently just came out (it hasn't even been released yet, according to amazon.com), and most people don't have it yet. So no, you shouldn't assume that everyone has read it just like you have. |
| Banpai01-02-08, 08:54 PM | I really love Elminster, he may be an old fart of a mage, but thats exactly what he is supposed to be. I recently read Elminster at the Magefair now adore him even more than before (even if thats just for his stunning piece of poetry at the fireball throwing contest), but I can understand why some people don´t like him. To put it short, it´s a problem with the presentation, it wasn´t the problem that El appeared on the first page of the FRCS after all he is the perfect character to welcome new players to the Realms, but I think that it was a problem to put his impressive statblock there too. Some players might have seen this as an open challenge (not unlike a raid boss ) so its easy to fail to spot that big El has more than enough things to do, after all he is the chosen (and beloved) of Mystra. Maybe I have to say that my two favourite writers are Ed and Terry Pratchett so I came to stop caring how many fireballs a character can throw or how many times dragons he can summon, EL is a character and while his love for magic is certanly a defining character trait you could strip away all his power and he would still be our beloved old fart :) |
| Ranger REG01-02-08, 11:46 PM | I disagree, because Elminster isn't Ed Greenwood.:) Ed Greenwood is Alias??? :OMG! |
| Lord Karsus01-02-08, 11:57 PM | I love how whenever another author other than ED Greenwood has some world saving-delima, it's always "Elminster save us!". Yet he's never around. You would think him being in the same general area as the where the twilight war takes place, he would...oh what's the word.....help?. But nah, since Shar wants to destroy everyone including herself, it's no big deal to him. Good job Wizard Coast, no need for ruining forgotten realms story for the sake of a author knowing his/her character the best. Because you know, when my neighbor is dying on his front lawn, I can just say, even though I would want to help, it's not my area. I guarantee sales out the ass if character interaction was allowed. -Elminster isn't on Faerűn. He and his tower have disappeared from Shadowdale, and the Realms, for the time being. Ed Greenwood is Alias??? :OMG! -Having Alias as an alias would certainly be an alias. |
| 18DELTA01-03-08, 12:52 AM | Omg, either your making a joke and it went right over my head or I am at a loss. You are the 5th person who has never heard of it until I came along. Is it really that rare? Should I e-bay it? Christ people. -Omg, is your new years resolution to be a total jerk?:rolleyes: -Sorry, I have not heard of said book.:embarrass -My bad, your mistake! :P -Well, I now know what book I will be buying tomorrow. :D -Good Grief!!!:banghead: :dancin: CALE CALE CALE CALE CALE CALE CALE CALE CALE CALE CALE CALE CALE CALE :dancin: |
| 18DELTA01-03-08, 12:55 AM | Realms of War apparently just came out (it hasn't even been released yet, according to amazon.com), and most people don't have it yet. So no, you shouldn't assume that everyone has read it just like you have. -Yeah I just figured that out, no thanks to a TROLL a couple of post ago. :rolleyes: :twitch: :blink: :doh: :D |
| Stigger01-03-08, 01:21 AM | I have a feeling Warning is much too short to be a troll... maybe a child-troll though. Probably not a troll-doll though, as I'd have incinerated him by now if he were. I hate troll-dolls on a semi-psychotic level. |
| 18DELTA01-03-08, 01:38 AM | I have a feeling Warning is much too short to be a troll... maybe a child-troll though. Probably not a troll-doll though, as I'd have incinerated him by now if he were. I hate troll-dolls on a semi-psychotic level. :OMG! :blink: :smirk: :rofl: :bow: :clap: :D |
| MarkusTay6301-03-08, 06:40 PM | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Wizard_troll_doll-low_res.jpg But I understand he will be getting bigger in 4e. :P |
| Stigger01-03-08, 07:49 PM | Mental note, send nuke towards East Coast so its sure to take out Markus and his evil troll dolls... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-03-08, 07:58 PM | Hey, I have a troll like that! Talk about a blast from the past... |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 08:05 PM | Mental note, send nuke towards East Coast so its sure to take out Markus and his evil troll dolls... -Smooth move. Hey, I have a troll like that! Talk about a blast from the past... -I vaguely recall used to having one of those. It's hair was all rainbow-like, though. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-03-08, 08:12 PM | -I vaguely recall used to having one of those. It's hair was all rainbow-like, though. YOU had a troll doll? You, Karsus? Aww.:) |
| MarkusTay6301-03-08, 08:20 PM | He probably had the tMNT version. ;) |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 08:26 PM | YOU had a troll doll? You, Karsus? Aww.:) He probably had the tMNT version. ;) -I don't remember exactly. I was into TMNT, when I was like 5, so it is a possibility. |
| MarkusTay6301-03-08, 08:29 PM | Nahhhh... http://i4.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/a2/e6/9a1e_1.JPG You said he had rainbow hair (which technically makes him a Wishkin, I think). EDIT: Like this - http://i7.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/9a/76/3e29_1.JPG |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 08:32 PM | EDIT: Like this - http://i7.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/9a/76/3e29_1.JPG -Yeah, that's the one. EDIT: Where do you find these random things, MT? :P |
| Stigger01-03-08, 08:37 PM | Indeed, your day is coming Markus... just you wait. Vengeance shall be mine. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-03-08, 08:44 PM | - EDIT: Where do you find these random things, MT? :P Was wondering the same thing... I'm pretty sure I had a rainbow haired one, too. I had TONS of them. |
| Warning01-03-08, 08:56 PM | Is that Volmaxx or whatever his name is in twilight war series, shars chosen, stronger than Elimenster. Please don't give me that "It depends". Just use your best jugdement. As many of you know from AO stats, I will bug you guys until I get a definent answer. Just give me a "yes"..or..."no". |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 08:59 PM | Is that Volmaxx or whatever his name is in twilight war series, shars chosen, stronger than Elimenster. Please don't give me that "It depends". Just use your best jugdement. As many of you know from AO stats, I will bug you guys until I get a definent answer. Just give me a "yes"..or..."no". -Being as that Volumvax is a deity, and Elminster isn't, in that sense, yes. -However, we all know that politics, especially fantastical, divine politics, are a bit more complicated than just that. |
| MarkusTay6301-03-08, 09:04 PM | Well, while looking for a 'Troll' pic to help Stigger insult Warning, I learned way more about Troll Dolls then I ever wanted to. :yuck: The first Wizard One was actual in the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_Doll) for them, and the rest I believe were all from E-Bay. There's even a museum somewhere with those ugly little runts in them. Also, they turned them all into 'cute' girls a couple years back and they had their own cartoon called Trollz. Way TOO much information... :rolleyes: All I personally remember is that they used to be given out at carnivals as a 'booby prize'. |
| Warning01-03-08, 09:15 PM | -Being as that Volumvax is a deity, and Elminster isn't, in that sense, yes. -However, we all know that politics, especially fantastical, divine politics, are a bit more complicated than just that. Isn't Elimenster there too keep that magic goddess chick in check (mystra or something). That's so silly. Just because someone has a title, shouldn't make them more powerful. Given the right advantage, anyone can take down anything. But hey, thanks for the "Yes". But last I checked, Volmaxx wasn't on the "diety list". He just has alot of power. I want to see Lathander take down Shar, he has hardcore devouted fanatics like shar, and alot more too. |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 09:16 PM | The first Wizard One was actual in the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_Doll) for them... -This line made me laugh: "With their brightly colored hair and cute faces..." I can just imagine some disgruntled guy saying that. :) |
| Storm_Silverhand01-03-08, 11:13 PM | Heya, Isn't Elimenster there too keep that magic goddess chick in check (mystra or something). That's so silly. Just because someone has a title, shouldn't make them more powerful. Given the right advantage, anyone can take down anything. But hey, thanks for the "Yes". But last I checked, Volmaxx wasn't on the "diety list". He just has alot of power. I want to see Lathander take down Shar, he has hardcore devouted fanatics like shar, and alot more too. That's actually only one theory regarding the Chosen of Mystra. It's never been stated as fact. "that magic goddess chick" :rolleyes: |
| Stigger01-04-08, 12:12 AM | Think its more like Volumwhatsit has a divine rank, whereas El doesn't. |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 12:34 AM | Isn't Elimenster there too keep that magic goddess chick in check (mystra or something). That's so silly. Just because someone has a title, shouldn't make them more powerful. Given the right advantage, anyone can take down anything. -It is said that Mystra was once upon a time so powerful that Ao felt threatened . This is how I feel about that: :rolleyes: -Anyway, Mystra diffused her power among a bunch of mortals (The Chosen of Mystra), to lower her relative Divine Rank, and to act as a fail safe, in case anything were to ever happen to her. So, Elminster, and the rest of the Chosen- all Chosen- have a bit of divine energy in them. That's what 'powers them'. It's not signifigant enough, however, to seperate them very much for ordinary mortals. But last I checked, Volmaxx wasn't on the "diety list". He just has alot of power. I want to see Lathander take down Shar, he has hardcore devouted fanatics like shar, and alot more too. -Part of his story is in Faiths and Pantheons. To make a long* story short, Volumvox was a faithful worshipper of Shar, and in reward, she granted him divinity. He has a Divine Rank of 0. *Much of Volumvox's story was further illuminated/added to in the Twilight War trilogy. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-04-08, 03:03 AM | Heya, -Anyway, Mystra diffused her power among a bunch of mortals (The Chosen of Mystra), to lower her relative Divine Rank, and to act as a fail safe, in case anything were to ever happen to her. So, Elminster, and the rest of the Chosen- all Chosen- have a bit of divine energy in them. That's what 'powers them'. It's not signifigant enough, however, to seperate them very much for ordinary mortals. Though technically speaking the Seven Sisters should all be DvR 0, being that they're literally Mystra's daughters. But that's not how they're treated in the Realms. (I think I've said this elsewhere today...) |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 03:08 AM | Though technically speaking the Seven Sisters should all be DvR 0, being that they're literally Mystra's daughters. -No, the Seven Sisters are all mortal. They were concieved when two mortals decided to procreate. That Mystra possessed the mother at some point is irrelevant. |
| Warning01-04-08, 03:38 AM | -It is said that Mystra was once upon a time so powerful that Ao felt threatened . This is how I feel about that: :rolleyes: What's this?! Am I reading correctly? AO? Fear? Is this a oxymoron? So, AO can't have stats yet he can be beaten by one deity in theory? - -Part of his story is in Faiths and Pantheons. To make a long* story short, Volumvox was a faithful worshipper of Shar, and in reward, she granted him divinity. He has a Divine Rank of 0. What one of Shars followers weren't faithful until she betrayed them? Honeslty, everyone does exactly as she tells them. Did he go above and beyond and prove something to her? |
| Stigger01-04-08, 04:13 AM | You're capacity for ignoring the obvious intent of a post amazes even my vastly superior self at times Warning. But you're still a lesser being. And who knows why Shar does anything... she's fickle and weird that way. |
| Warning01-04-08, 04:28 AM | You're capacity for ignoring the obvious intent of a post amazes even my vastly superior self at times Warning. But you're still a lesser being. And who knows why Shar does anything... she's fickle and weird that way. No, he stated that she granted him divinty because he was faithful. But, I was arguing that statment is contrdicting, because last I rememberd, none of Shars followers were unfaithful. So in theory, all followers get divinty. Logic+1 Stigger. |
| Stigger01-04-08, 06:52 AM | A lot of her followers are in it for themselves actually... her portfolio tends to attract those who want something from her, be it revenge, or just release from whatever. Beyond some strangely nihlistic sorts, I just don't see people really being into Shar for what she is, but rather what she can do for them. Not what I would call terribly faithful people. Fanatacism out of fear of doing otherwise doesn't equate to genuine devotion. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-04-08, 07:04 AM | Heya, -No, the Seven Sisters are all mortal. They were concieved when two mortals decided to procreate. That Mystra possessed the mother at some point is irrelevant. To start with, the Seven Sisters have been referred to in canon texts as being the daughters of Mystra... but if that's not enough proof for you... Mystra's divine essence had such an effect on Eluč, that she started to burn out. Basically, Mystra made an avatar of a mortal and began to burn her out. Her divine essence was definitely involved in their conception, and that's all it takes. Remember that gods aren't bound by conventional means of reproduction - Mystra's presence in Eluč is just one way a god could reproduce. Let's not forget Qiluč, who was carried almost to term by Eluč and then was transferred to Iliryztara Veladorn and had her race changed in the process (Eluč and Dornal were human and half elf respectively, IIRC, or was that the other way around?). Mystra had a very strong influence on the Seven, and it's impossible to completely discount it, which you're doing by saying they're mortal. |
| Stigger01-04-08, 07:07 AM | Elue was the half-elf, Dornal the human, at least as far as I recall. And I'd agree that they should have DvR 0, despite the official stance on the matter. I do tend to treat them that way in my head for my own campaign, even if they've never actually made an appearance in most of my campaigns. |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 10:45 AM | What's this?! Am I reading correctly? AO? Fear? Is this a oxymoron? So, AO can't have stats yet he can be beaten by one deity in theory? -Hence why I added the ':rolleyes:'. Thankfully, nowhere in canon is that actually written, and that is one of the theories that have floated from Candlekeep, via some of the 'hardcore' Greenwood people there. What one of Shars followers weren't faithful until she betrayed them? Honeslty, everyone does exactly as she tells them. Did he go above and beyond and prove something to her? -Read Faiths and Pantheons, and the Twilight War trilogy to find out. Off the top of my head, the main source, F&P, doesn't go into much detail into the hows and whys. No, he stated that she granted him divinty because he was faithful. But, I was arguing that statment is contrdicting, because last I rememberd, none of Shars followers were unfaithful. So in theory, all followers get divinty. Logic+1 Stigger. -Apparently Logic -1 Karsus, because that is making no sense. Shar granted Volumvox divinity as a reward for being a faithful servant over the years. She hasn't giving any of her other followers divnity, with the exception of her Chosen, who might actually be Volumvox at the end of the day. So, there's a disconnect in your reasoning... |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 10:49 AM | To start with, the Seven Sisters have been referred to in canon texts as being the daughters of Mystra... but if that's not enough proof for you... Mystra's divine essence had such an effect on Eluč, that she started to burn out. Basically, Mystra made an avatar of a mortal and began to burn her out. Her divine essence was definitely involved in their conception, and that's all it takes. Remember that gods aren't bound by conventional means of reproduction - Mystra's presence in Eluč is just one way a god could reproduce. Let's not forget Qiluč, who was carried almost to term by Eluč and then was transferred to Iliryztara Veladorn and had her race changed in the process (Eluč and Dornal were human and half elf respectively, IIRC, or was that the other way around?). Mystra had a very strong influence on the Seven, and it's impossible to completely discount it, which you're doing by saying they're mortal. -And none of that changes the fact that the Seven Sisters were concieved when two mortals got together and 'did it', thus making them mortals themselves. They are not "literally Mystra's daughters". They are literally Eluč and Dornal's daughters. DId Mystra have an impact on their births? Of course. But, that doesn't somehow make them DvR 0 demideities. |
| Karsus the Mad01-04-08, 10:52 AM | To start with, the Seven Sisters have been referred to in canon texts as being the daughters of Mystra... but if that's not enough proof for you... Oh storm, please stop with the women+ thing. LK actually has a point. Your attitude only hurts your point. If you gimme a kiss, I help you....please....I just wanna kiss from a lovely lady that can start fires.... |
| Warning01-04-08, 12:38 PM | A lot of her followers are in it for themselves actually... her portfolio tends to attract those who want something from her, be it revenge, or just release from whatever. Beyond some strangely nihlistic sorts, I just don't see people really being into Shar for what she is, but rather what she can do for them. Not what I would call terribly faithful people. Fanatacism out of fear of doing otherwise doesn't equate to genuine devotion. Ok, so they just pretend to agree with her for the sake of power or something? Her ideals are to destroy everyone, but your telling me that rivalen and countless other followers are just using her for power and when they get what they need, they will resign from serving her and the ideals that she believes in? Volmuxx is the only one who actually thinks her words as truth, correct? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-04-08, 01:06 PM | Heya, To start with, the Seven Sisters have been referred to in canon texts as being the daughters of Mystra... but if that's not enough proof for you... Mystra's divine essence had such an effect on Eluč, that she started to burn out. Basically, Mystra made an avatar of a mortal and began to burn her out. Her divine essence was definitely involved in their conception, and that's all it takes. Remember that gods aren't bound by conventional means of reproduction - Mystra's presence in Eluč is just one way a god could reproduce. Let's not forget Qiluč, who was carried almost to term by Eluč and then was transferred to Iliryztara Veladorn and had her race changed in the process (Eluč and Dornal were human and half elf respectively, IIRC, or was that the other way around?). Mystra had a very strong influence on the Seven, and it's impossible to completely discount it, which you're doing by saying they're mortal. I think the simplest answer is that the Seven Sisters were created before that rule (that the child of a god gets a Divine Rank of 0) was in place. A more lore-based answer would be that Mystra didn't want the Seven Sister to be quasi-deities (and to be honest, I wouldn't want that, myself). The Seven Sisters are, after all, already subject to Mystra's desires in many other aspects of life. Heck, by that rule, the Bhaalspawn (which like the Sisters predate the rule as they are creatures of 2E) would all have divine ranks of 0, but that was far from the case in that story, and also would be contrary to Bhaal's desires for them. Just throwing in my thoughts on that matter. :) |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 01:47 PM | Ok, so they just pretend to agree with her for the sake of power or something? Her ideals are to destroy everyone, but your telling me that rivalen and countless other followers are just using her for power and when they get what they need, they will resign from serving her and the ideals that she believes in? Volmuxx is the only one who actually thinks her words as truth, correct? -Everyone worships her for different reasons. Some poeple truly are nihilistic, and want to the world to be destroyed. Some people are 'rebeling' against society, and worship her. Some people want the power of the Shadow Weave, and that is why they give her prayer. There is no set definition. |
| Warning01-04-08, 01:59 PM | -Everyone worships her for different reasons. Some poeple truly are nihilistic, and want to the world to be destroyed. Some people are 'rebeling' against society, and worship her. Some people want the power of the Shadow Weave, and that is why they give her prayer. There is no set definition. Ok, but if Shars intentions are to destroy everything, and you follow her but don't really want the world destroyed, what's the point? It's like saying, I want cash, so I'll help Hitler, but I don't want him to win. Yet if he does, the world is screwed and I was a help to that. So do the Shar followers just want power and once they get it, they leave her? Because shes killed off so many of her followers it's plssing me off. You would think people learn. They see their "Dark brother or Dark sister" die or murder them, chances are, the same thing will happen to them. If shar thinks that everything is a lie and there is no truth other than suffering, who would whorship her and expect her to keep her word? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I really want to see Lolth or Shar get put in their place. Like when quite a few Drow were wiped out, and it only made Lolth stronger, I fliped out. It should have been a raid of Paladins with Lathander backing them up charging the underdark. Not some wizard drow and some stupid demons. How unorginal. I can imagine it, holes broken in the caves of the underdark revealing light from the rising sun, paladins clashing their shields chanting Lathanders name, armor gleaming even in dark places. The Drow looking out, only to have their vision blured by incomming holy light. Horns blazing. I really wanted to see RAS make King Garrath actually use his army. Paul Kemp gave a taste, but that was with like 30-50 soilders. |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 02:27 PM | Ok, but if Shars intentions are to destroy everything, and you follow her but don't really want the world destroyed, what's the point? It's like saying, I want cash, so I'll help Hitler, but I don't want him to win. Yet if he does, the world is screwed and I was a help to that. -There are plenty of people like that. -Italy allied herself with Germany during World War II, as did Japan. Do you think either Japan of Italy (especially Italy) wanted to see a world where Hitler's ideal- a world ruled by the 'stereotypical Nazi Aryan' came to fruition? Neither the Italians (Mediterranians), nor the Japanese (Orientals) actually fit with the Aryan ideal? In such a world, they would have been 'second-class citizens', or worse... So do the Shar followers just want power and once they get it, they leave her? -Some of them. Because shes killed off so many of her followers it's plssing me off. You would think people learn. They see their "Dark brother or Dark sister" die or murder them, chances are, the same thing will happen to them. -Not if they are more religious than the Dark Brother/Sister in question. They died because they were unfaithful infidels, and did not have Shar's favor. See how much of a spin can be put on that? If shar thinks that everything is a lie and there is no truth other than suffering, who would whorship her and expect her to keep her word? -See above. It should have been a raid of Paladins with Lathander backing them up charging the underdark. Not some wizard drow and some stupid demons. How unorginal. I can imagine it, holes broken in the caves of the underdark revealing light from the rising sun, paladins clashing their shields chanting Lathanders name, armor gleaming even in dark places. The Drow looking out, only to have their vision blured by incomming holy light. Horns blazing. -And, why would the Order of the Aster, and the rest of Lathanders church get involved where they didn't belong? Lathander has enough problems with his traditional enemies, in his traditional stomping grounds to open up a new can of worms with Lolth- at least, for the time being, anyway. The politics of the Forgotten Realms are like the politics here. You don't just go sticking your nose where it doesn't belong, without thinking long and hard about it. |
| Warning01-04-08, 02:35 PM | -And, why would the Order of the Aster, and the rest of Lathanders church get involved where they didn't belong? Lathander has enough problems with his traditional enemies, in his traditional stomping grounds to open up a new can of worms with Lolth- at least, for the time being, anyway. The politics of the Forgotten Realms are like the politics here. You don't just go sticking your nose where it doesn't belong, without thinking long and hard about it. Because authors can't intervine with another authors work. Also, it would mess up your little "DnD" game world, if the world were to act realisticly. No one could keep up with it. -Not if they are more religious than the Dark Brother/Sister in question. They died because they were unfaithful infidels, and did not have Shar's favor. See how much of a spin can be put on that? Um, last I remembered, killing your mother is pretty devouted. When rivalen killed that chick with the dog (elly something). Rivalen is screwed too I imagine. He already lashed out at Shar in Realms of War. |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 02:45 PM | Because authors can't intervine with another authors work. Also, it would mess up your little "DnD" game world, if the world were to act realisticly. No one could keep up with it. -It's being unrealistic, not realistic. As I said, divine politics are like politics here. Why is Lathander going to start messing with Lolth, who he doesn't necessarily like, but has no problems with? He pushes her around, and suddenly, he has yet another enemy. -The United States doesn't particularly like Cuba, because it is a Communist dictatorship. Say, one day, the United States decides that she's had enough, and bombs Cuba. The Castro regime loses grip of Cuba, but flees to Venezuela. Suddenly, Hugo Chavez, an ally of Castro, declares that he is no longer selling oil to U.S. buyers. Suddenly, Cristina de Kirchner of Argentina, Evo Morales of Bolivia and Alan Perez of Peru all join in the boycott. Economically, obviously, this hurts the United States. Now, in invading Cuba, what has the United States gained? -Apply all of this to Lathander, now. Lawful Good is not Lawful Stupid. |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 02:46 PM | Um, last I remembered, killing your mother is pretty devouted. When rivalen killed that chick with the dog (elly something). Rivalen is screwed too I imagine. He already lashed out at Shar in Realms of War. -In killing that Dark Sister, Rivalen is furthering Shar's cause by releasing the Shadowstorm. |
| Warning01-04-08, 02:47 PM | -The United States doesn't particularly like Cuba, because it is a Communist dictatorship. Say, one day, the United States decides that she's had enough, and bombs Cuba. The Castro regime loses grip of Cuba, but flees to Venezuela. Suddenly, Hugo Chavez, an ally of Castro, declares that he is no longer selling oil to U.S. buyers. Suddenly, Cristina de Kirchner of Argentina, Evo Morales of Bolivia and Alan Perez of Peru all join in the boycott. Economically, obviously, this hurts the United States. Now, in invading Cuba, what has the United States gained? You got yourself into this one ;) And what about Iraq? |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 02:50 PM | -What about it? It has nothing to do with the example I am illustrating, save the facts that many of the consequences are/would be similar (ie, not being able to persue more traditional enemies). |
| Warning01-04-08, 02:53 PM | -What about it? It has nothing to do with the example I am illustrating, save the facts that many of the consequences are/would be similar (ie, not being able to persue more traditional enemies). Using your analogy, we may not like the place, and we still went there. Therefore supporting my Lathander raiding Lolth theory. Anyway, I hate talking politics, and I stoped caring after a while too when I saw how divided stuff is. So don't worry about this arguement. You win. Check out V for Vendetta. |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 03:00 PM | Check out V for Vendetta. -All I know is it has a bald Natalie Portman. :yuck: |
| Warning01-04-08, 03:05 PM | -All I know is it has a bald Natalie Portman. :yuck: http://youtube.com/watch?v=0xO2gqi_ZjY&feature=related Here you go buddy. |
| Alediran01-04-08, 03:16 PM | -The United States doesn't particularly like Cuba, because it is a Communist dictatorship. Say, one day, the United States decides that she's had enough, and bombs Cuba. The Castro regime loses grip of Cuba, but flees to Venezuela. Suddenly, Hugo Chavez, an ally of Castro, declares that he is no longer selling oil to U.S. buyers. Suddenly, Cristina de Kirchner of Argentina, Evo Morales of Bolivia and Alan Perez of Peru all join in the boycott. Economically, obviously, this hurts the United States. Now, in invading Cuba, what has the United States gained? Somebody has much time free to know all that. Kudos. Did you see Hugo "The Brain" Chavez's negotiations with the FARC to get 3 kidnapped people? I'm having a great laugh seeing how pathetic he made himself appear with his failure (and his partner Nestor "Pinky" Kirchner, our former president and "former" terrorist). The current government of Argentina could only ascend to power thanks to Argentina's equivalent of War on Iraq Sympathizers who blindly blame USA for everything bad that happens to them. |
| Red_Wizard01-04-08, 03:28 PM | My two cents on Volumvax's divinity. I got the distinct impression that (Post Shadow war book 2) his essence came from Mask, and not Shar. She perhaps had a large hand in his acquisition/ Escape with it, but for me I saw it as her making a follower divine, without wasting her own precious energy in the process. And what better way to acquire part of an enemies portfolio, than have a gods chosen steal it for you. -RW |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 03:35 PM | http://youtube.com/watch?v=0xO2gqi_ZjY&feature=related Here you go buddy. -Erg, she's bald. Such a beautiful girl, and she shaves her head. It's a shame. Somebody has much time free to know all that. Kudos. -If you are not in the know, you are ignorant. And, I don't like being ignorant. That's my policy. My two cents on Volumvax's divinity. I got the distinct impression that (Post Shadow war book 2) his essence came from Mask, and not Shar. -I disagree. The 'chalice' that the man who becomes Volumvox drinks from is the metaphorical same thing that Erevis Cale drank from. Cale drinking from the 'chalice' did not grant him divinity, it gave him special status as a Chosen. In turn, that should have made the being who would become Volumvox a Chosen-equilvalent as well, meaning that something else (Shar) awarded him with divinity. |
| Red_Wizard01-04-08, 03:49 PM | Hmmm, So you suggest that the divine essence that Cale has set out to retrieve is in truth nothing more than the power of being a Chosen? Seems kind of odd that Mask couldn't simply disavow a chosen, thus stripping him of his power if that were the case. -RW |
| Alediran01-04-08, 03:55 PM | -Erg, she's bald. Such a beautiful girl, and she shaves her head. It's a shame. Some day I need to give you a set of argentinian beauty's pictures. :D |
| Storm_Silverhand01-04-08, 05:18 PM | Heya, -And none of that changes the fact that the Seven Sisters were concieved when two mortals got together and 'did it', thus making them mortals themselves. They are not "literally Mystra's daughters". They are literally Eluč and Dornal's daughters. DId Mystra have an impact on their births? Of course. But, that doesn't somehow make them DvR 0 demideities. How about this? First assumption, human + half elf = human. 761 DR Sylune is born 762 DR Alustriel is born 763 DR Dove is born 764 DR Storm is born 765 DR Laeral is born 766 DR The Simbul is born 767 DR Qilue is born - her race is changed, she's not human as she should be, she's Drow. 841 DR - Sylune and Laeral are Chosen by Mystra. That makes Sylune and Laeral 80 and 76 years old respectively, which is extremely old for Humans (we're talking venerable here), but from their activities at the time, neither of them sound like they were particularly elderly. Now, I know you could point out that they were probably using longevity potions but this isn't actually definitively stated anywhere. We are free to make our own assumptions. Obviously you'd go for the potion theory, I think it's their divine origin. In the end, all I've proven is that it is definitely open to interpretation. Oh, and DvR 0 makes them quasi-deities or hero deities, not demigods. There is actually a difference. DvR 0 means they're immortal, and they might have a stat well beyond the norm for their race. They can't grant spells, though they might have worshipers. (I knew having AGHotR would prove handy...) Oh storm, please stop with the women+ thing. LK actually has a point. Your attitude only hurts your point. If you gimme a kiss, I help you....please....I just wanna kiss from a lovely lady that can start fires.... Excuse me? :mad: Read what I've posted to LK in this post and say that again. But I warn you, my temper is almost as legendary as my namesake. I think the simplest answer is that the Seven Sisters were created before that rule (that the child of a god gets a Divine Rank of 0) was in place. A more lore-based answer would be that Mystra didn't want the Seven Sister to be quasi-deities (and to be honest, I wouldn't want that, myself). The Seven Sisters are, after all, already subject to Mystra's desires in many other aspects of life. Heck, by that rule, the Bhaalspawn (which like the Sisters predate the rule as they are creatures of 2E) would all have divine ranks of 0, but that was far from the case in that story, and also would be contrary to Bhaal's desires for them. It wouldn't be the first time WotC has broken their own rules or conventional rules of mythology. It's not like DvR 0 does much for them beyond making them immortal. I don't think there's much difference between that and the way they are now. To turn it on it's head, it could just be that none of the Seven want to be worshiped and thus don't encourage it - it's not like they could grant spells with DvR 0 anyway. But then there's that rhyme about the Seven that sound suspiciously like a prayer... "Seven bright stars in the sky I see, Seven for those who watch over me, Seven be the smiles they send, Seven be the troubles swift they mend." Disclaimer: This is all theoretical musing, in the end I think that if I were to ask Ed, he'd come down on the "not divine" side. |
| Caemun01-04-08, 05:44 PM | -Erg, she's bald. Such a beautiful girl, and she shaves her head. It's a shame. True, but still a great movie. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-04-08, 07:20 PM | Because authors can't intervine with another authors work. They can if WotC wants them to, or allows it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-04-08, 10:10 PM | It's not like DvR 0 does much for them beyond making them immortal. I don't think there's much difference between that and the way they are now.[/B] Maybe not. In any case I see you asked Ed this question. I can't wait to see how he answers.:) |
| Finglas01-04-08, 10:11 PM | They can if WotC wants them to, or allows it. True, as in Elminster getting dropped into Avernus in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy--for that matter, the Seven Sisters and Khelben were all used in that one, and it wasn't Ed Greenwood doing the writing. Or Steven Schend, Elaine Cunningham, Bob Salvatore, etc., who've all used one or more of those characters. At least it resulted in Elminster in Hell, which was one of my favorites. Ed G. is the man, turning that unexpected surprise into something cool. But I think I'm sidetracking myself here...What were we talking about again? Oh, yeah, I like Elminster, btw. ;) |
| Lord Karsus01-05-08, 12:52 AM | First assumption, human + half elf = human. That makes Sylune and Laeral 80 and 76 years old respectively, which is extremely old for Humans (we're talking venerable here)... -Not when Elven blood is involved, as in the case of Khelben Arunson, who was in a similar situation. Excuse me? :mad: Read what I've posted to LK in this post and say that again. But I warn you, my temper is almost as legendary as my namesake. -Let's not start bringing up legendary namesakes, because, well, nothing's more legendary than the Big K. |
| captaincarot01-05-08, 07:17 AM | Let's not start bringing up legendary namesakes, because, well, nothing's more legendary than the Big K. let's look at this carefully. if you look at either end of most people's legs, there's a heel at one end and an ass at the other, so maybe leg ends ain't so bad a description anyway. :P as for liking dear old Elminster, what's their not to like, cantankerous old goat with an eye for the ladies, and a wickedly mischievous temperament. the guys brilliant. |
| Fire_Wraith01-05-08, 10:30 AM | I don't think they were meant to be "divine children" in the sense that the current/recent rules are putting forth, where every god-child starts with Divine Rank 0, etc... The Bhaalspawn are a salient example to show that this wasn't the case there either, even though it may have been retconned in ("oh, yes, they were always possessed of immortal lifespans, it was just never mentioned before, and no one noticed due to the rate at which they're dying off from more bloody means"). As far as their ages go, I think it's been pretty clearly established that wizards, particularly the Chosen of Mystra, aren't too concerned with dying of old age. Elminster has been around for over a millenia, and the same was true of Khelben. One could postulate that they used 'normal' magic(s) to extend their lifespans until the time of being officially 'chosen'. Of course, it would be just as easy to state that Mystra was showing them favor/granting them power even before official designation as "Chosen," whether one considers them to be true literal blood heirs of hers or not. Honestly, I think any of the versions is a valid interpretation, and really isn't going to cause much disruption either way (save perhaps on a forum like this, where it is our solemn responsibility to crush those heretics that do not agree :D ). It certainly wouldn't bother me in the least if they were declared to be DVR 0 heirs of Mystra... ...as long as they're allowed to survive. :tantrum: |
| msatran01-05-08, 11:56 AM | I like Elminster. I don't love Elminster. The thing I don't like about Elminster is the "Every young wizard sleeps with me" thing. But that's relatively minor. I have characters who don't like Elminster. Then I have characters who think he's great. Elminster is an NPC that has to be used properly. He's a SAGE. If you go to his house, and he's there, you pay him the rates of a sage to do what PC's do. He isn't meant to be a rescue monkey for the PCs. I don't think my PC's have ever asked Elminster to save them, though a few have gotten some training from him, and a few have paid him to give them information. |
| Asgetrion01-05-08, 02:59 PM | I like Elminster :) |
| Warning01-05-08, 03:48 PM | -Erg, she's bald. Such a beautiful girl, and she shaves her head. It's a shame. She did not have a choice. When she was "captured", "they" made her do it. Kinda like when you join the military. |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-05-08, 04:41 PM | You wouldn't catch me dead with my head shaved (I get a "Fade") just for the record... |
| Warning01-05-08, 04:47 PM | You wouldn't catch me dead with my head shaved (I get a "Fade") just for the record... Yeah, I'm too pretty to have my shaved also. My blue eyes couldn't work without my fancy long blonde hair :love: Also, I do not like Elminster. He is a human. Anything that is not a drow/and or male is ilbilth, and therefore must suck. |
| Lord Karsus01-05-08, 04:47 PM | She did not have a choice. When she was "captured", "they" made her do it. Kinda like when you join the military. -No, I was talking about Natalie taking the role, and actually going through with it, not the character. |
| Warning01-05-08, 04:48 PM | -No, I was talking about Natalie taking the role, and actually going through with it, not the character. It will grow back? Hey, wouldn't you shave your hair for a handsome amount of money and fame for a movie? |
| Lord Karsus01-05-08, 04:50 PM | It will grow back? Hey, wouldn't you shave your hair for a handsome amount of money and fame for a movie? -Her hair is already back, since the movie was like a year or so ago. Me? I'd do it, but I'm a guy, and that's acceptable. Natalie...It just hurts my sensibilities, that's all. |
| Warning01-05-08, 05:29 PM | -Her hair is already back, since the movie was like a year or so ago. Me? I'd do it, but I'm a guy, and that's acceptable. Natalie...It just hurts my sensibilities, that's all. Nah, she's human too. Not a Drow, therefore she sucks too. Like I said, Elminster sucks and Cale and anyone other male or none Drow. V sucks also. Damn none Drow. |
| Lord Karsus01-05-08, 05:41 PM | -I was going to make a comment about her and sucking, but I won't do it. -Did you ever think about the fact that some Drow call other Drow iblith? Now what? |
| Storm_Silverhand01-05-08, 05:57 PM | Heya, -Not when Elven blood is involved, as in the case of Khelben Arunson, who was in a similar situation. By RAW, that's not the case since humans mating with half elves produce humans, and there's no extension of lifespan for "quarter elves" mentioned anywhere in any source book... Just novels, and we know how reliable novels are from a rules perspective (ie: not at all). So we're back to individual interpretation. -Let's not start bringing up legendary namesakes, because, well, nothing's more legendary than the Big K. Oh yes, I forgot. Ego the size of a planet. ;) |
| Warning01-05-08, 07:24 PM | - -Did you ever think about the fact that some Drow call other Drow iblith? Now what? Wow, way to give me some spanks. Big K indeed. |
| MarkusTay6301-05-08, 07:29 PM | as for liking dear old Elminster, what's their not to like, cantankerous old goat with an eye for the ladies, and a wickedly mischievous temperament. the guys brilliant.You just described George Burns. I think he was around a 1000 years old when he passed, too. ;) |
| Warning01-05-08, 07:57 PM | You just described George Burns. I think he was around a 1000 years old when he passed, too. ;) Yeah man, and how come Rivalen or his Father aren't Gods? They are like 2,000+. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 12:26 AM | Oh yes, I forgot. Ego the size of a planet. ;) -Indeed. Fear me and dispair. Wow, way to give me some spanks. Big K indeed. -I'll be here all week, folks. Yeah man, and how come Rivalen or his Father aren't Gods? They are like 2,000+. -In short, it's because they never had the opportunity to sieze a 'divine spark'- the...'energy', for a lack of better words, that makes deities deities. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-06-08, 02:31 AM | Heya, -Indeed. Fear me and dispair. Dispair... hmm... how about datpair? :D |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-06-08, 02:38 AM | Don't forget that the Momentary God was a being of overweening arrogance and minuscule wisdom. Mystra possessed a half-elf, specifically the half-elf Elue whom Dornal Silverhand fancied/lusted for/liked above all others. Elue was okay with it, and so Mystra used her magic to seduce Dornal. They wed and they produced Sylune in DR 761. The magic of Mystra invariably wore out Elue from within and Dornal also wanted sons as well as daughters. Dornal beheaded his great love once he found out from a priest that she was possessed by the intelligent force of a greater power. In his mind, Elue had been used. Despondent, his bitterness ruled him. The daughters of Mystra were more or less human, as a descriptor only. The Chosen of Mystra template may have actually been latently transfered to them at their birth. They are more human than human but less divine than deities, even hero-deities. And the pertinent statement is "Shall I give you dis pear." I feel indifferent towards Elminster, but he does serve his purpose in Faerun. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 02:59 AM | Dispair... hmm... how about datpair? -Dis pair, dat pair. Whichever. Don't forget that the Momentary God was a being of overweening arrogance and minuscule wisdom. -A 19 WIS is miniscule? |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-06-08, 03:04 AM | -A 19 WIS is miniscule? His actions were unwise. Overweening arrogance is also indicative of a minuscule wisdom. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 03:05 AM | His actions were unwise. -Action, and in the 20/20 vision of hindsight, sure. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-06-08, 03:09 AM | -Action, and in the 20/20 vision of hindsight, sure. Actions as the plural. He had to experiment and arrive at his incorrect conclusions. He had to progressively advance in his experimentations so as to be able to cast that fateful spell. From Netheril, Empire of Magic, "He was stark, raving mad. He acted like an excited child most of the time, and his tantrums were to be avoided at all cost[...]Karsus went through many “special friends” during his lifetime. Some in the Karsus Enclave viewed the designation of “special friend” as a death mark." But, yeah, I still feel indifferent toward Elminster. I like Khelben more. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 03:12 AM | Actions as the plural. He had to experiment and arrive at his incorrect conclusions. He had to go progressively advance in his experimentations so as to be able to cast that fateful spell. -A detail that is often ignored and/or forgotten is that the spell worked correctly, and the only reason it failed was because Mystrl ended her existence. From Netherial, "He was stark, raving mad. He acted like an excited child most of the time, and his tantrums were to be avoided at all cost[...]Karsus went through many “special friends” during his lifetime. Some in the Karsus Enclave viewed the designation of “special friend” as a death mark." -And, some of the greatest artists, inventors, writers, musicians, philosophers, and so on, did not have quirks such as these? |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-06-08, 03:15 AM | -A detail that is often ignored and/or forgotten is that the spell worked correctly, and the only reason it failed was because Mystrl ended her existence. All of this lends greater credence to actions in the plural sense rather than a single action. I know the history of Karsus and his failed attempt at divinity. -And, some of the greatest artists, inventors, writers, musicians, philosophers, and so on, did not have quirks such as these? There is a fine line between genius and insanity. But note I never said anything about intelligence. I did refer to wisdom. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 03:27 AM | All of this lends greater credence to actions in the plural sense rather than a single action. I know the history of Karsus and his failed attempt at divinity. -Well, you are incorrect right there, then, as his attempt to sieze Mystryls divinity did in fact succeed. There is a fine line between genius and insanity. But note I never said anything about intelligence. I did refer to wisdom. -Wisdom would be the ability score in question: insight. -Well, goodnight. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-06-08, 03:32 AM | -Well, you are incorrect right there, then, as his attempt to sieze Mystryls divinity did in fact succeed. It did ultimately fail. Hence why Mystryl destroyed herself. If the spell succeeded, Karsus would still be a deity to this day. -Wisdom would be the ability score in question: insight. Wisdom is different to intelligence. Intelligence is usually synonymous with genius. Karsus lacks wisdom, otherwise he wouldn't be stark raving mad. Good night. |
| Ryltar Swordsong01-06-08, 09:25 AM | Karsus' spell worked exactly as it was designed to, he was just unable to deal with the raw power of being the diety of magic. If he had targeted another diety, he might still be a active god in the modern Realms. Of course that begs the question: what the other dieties would do about such a usurpation of power by a mortal? The most likely answer is they would destroy him and all references to his spell, meaning the outcome would be the same. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-06-08, 09:38 AM | The spell failed in its intended purpose. hence 'it did ultimately fail.' The spell was successful for but a moment, hence Karsus' appellation of the Momentary Deity. If his spell had actually prolonged for the long run (had actually succeeded and not failed), Karsus would be, and still be or would have been, the deity of magic and not Mystryl. As for Karsus' hypothetical selection of another deity as a target of his spell, I would think that it would also fail with similar spectacular results. Ao forbids intentional deicide to ultimately succeed. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 10:59 AM | It did ultimately fail. Hence why Mystryl destroyed herself. If the spell succeeded, Karsus would still be a deity to this day. The spell failed in its intended purpose. hence 'it did ultimately fail.' The spell was successful for but a moment, hence Karsus' appellation of the Momentary Deity. If his spell had actually prolonged for the long run (had actually succeeded and not failed), Karsus would be, and still be or would have been, the deity of magic and not Mystryl. -Incorrect. That Mystryl ended her existence is proof that the spell succeeded. Had it failed, Mystryl would not have needed to end her existence. But, she did, because Karsus' Avatar linked his soul with her divinity, and was wrestling the portfolio of magic away from her. In the end, did everything pan out of Karsus? No, obviously. Mystryl sacrificed herself, severing Karsus' connection to her with disasterous results. However, there is no doubt in the history books, that the spell worked. Wisdom is different to intelligence. Intelligence is usually synonymous with genius. Karsus lacks wisdom, otherwise he wouldn't be stark raving mad. -Again, a Wisdom of 19 is extremely higher than the average (10). Thus, Karsus was wise. As for Karsus' hypothetical selection of another deity as a target of his spell, I would think that it would also fail with similar spectacular results. Ao forbids intentional deicide to ultimately succeed. -We'll never know, but in my mind, his spell would similarly succeed, as it did when cast on Mystryl. It is then on the deity to decide the next move. Good night. -Mwa ha! Good morning. |
| MaskedOne01-06-08, 11:43 AM | -A detail that is often ignored and/or forgotten is that the spell worked correctly, and the only reason it failed was because Mystrl ended her existence. You were expecting her to leave nearly unmatched power in your somewhat unreliable hands, Momentary One? It was suicide or let me directly contest your control through the variety of tricks she and I had in place at the time. Since the latter would probably sterilize Faerun, drastic measures were taken. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 11:45 AM | You were expecting her to leave nearly unmatched power in your somewhat unreliable hands, Momentary One? -I'll admit, I was a bit brash back then. But, I mean, I was only 357 years old, so it's understandable. |
| MaskedOne01-06-08, 01:56 PM | Your talent for understatement remains astounding. :) Notably most humans outgrow that degree of brash behaviour by 200 though arcanists do seem to be the exception but really, teenage behaviour when one is past 200 should be left to dense elves. Humanity is supposed to reach maturity faster. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-06-08, 05:14 PM | Heya, The daughters of Mystra were more or less human, as a descriptor only. The Chosen of Mystra template may have actually been latently transfered to them at their birth. They are more human than human but less divine than deities, even hero-deities. There's actually an entry in AGHotR that disagrees with that assessment (In the Year of the Hunted Elk, 841 DR, Laeral and Sylune are fighting, Mystra appears to them mid-fight (which stops them cold, I'm sure) and offers them the mantle of Chosen.). None of the Seven were Chosen until later in their lives... That is, none of them had the template a birth - they only later gained the Silver Fire (which is the thing that powers all of the Chosen abilities) later. And the pertinent statement is "Shall I give you dis pear." I don't like pears that much... Peaches, on the other hand... :) |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-06-08, 10:34 PM | -Incorrect. That Mystryl ended her existence is proof that the spell succeeded. Had it failed, Mystryl would not have needed to end her existence. But, she did, because Karsus' Avatar linked his soul with her divinity, and was wrestling the portfolio of magic away from her. In the end, did everything pan out of Karsus? No, obviously. Mystryl sacrificed herself, severing Karsus' connection to her with disasterous results. However, there is no doubt in the history books, that the spell worked. I see that you have a funny idea of what it means when I say it failed in its intended purpose and ultimately failed. Its intended purpose was to capture the essence of a deity and use to correct the disastrous (wrong)doings of the Phaerimm. His intent was to become a deity. However, all of this ultimately failed, Karsus was not ready for the influx of divinity and Mystryl later destroyed herself to prevent any irreparable damage to the Weave. My point wasn't that the spell didn't initially work (which I never said), my statement said that the spell ultimately failed. In your own words, pay attention. -Again, a Wisdom of 19 is extremely higher than the average (10). Thus, Karsus was wise. The sourcebook could have been exaggerating. But I was poking fun at Karsus. What was written of him though seem to suggest someone who was not wise at all, but very intelligent. -We'll never know, but in my mind, his spell would similarly succeed, as it did when cast on Mystryl. It is then on the deity to decide the next move. Similarly succeed with the same disastrous results? -Mwa ha! Good morning. Good afternoon! :) Heya, G'day. :) There's actually an entry in AGHotR that disagrees with that assessment (In the Year of the Hunted Elk, 841 DR, Laeral and Sylune are fighting, Mystra appears to them mid-fight (which stops them cold, I'm sure) and offers them the mantle of Chosen.). None of the Seven were Chosen until later in their lives... That is, none of them had the template a birth - they only later gained the Silver Fire (which is the thing that powers all of the Chosen abilities) later. Well, I did say that the template could have been latently gifted. Something that the potential Chosen themselves were unaware of but required an external source to activate. I don't like pears that much... Peaches, on the other hand... :) Durian are horrible. Peaches and apricots are nice. Blueberries FTW. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 11:18 PM | I see that you have a funny idea of what it means when I say it failed in its intended purpose and ultimately failed. Its intended purpose was to capture the essence of a deity and use to correct the disastrous (wrong)doings of the Phaerimm. His intent was to become a deity. However, all of this ultimately failed, Karsus was not ready for the influx of divinity and Mystryl later destroyed herself to prevent any irreparable damage to the Weave. My point wasn't that the spell didn't initially work (which I never said), my statement said that the spell ultimately failed. In your own words, pay attention. -The purpose of the spell was to link himself to Mystryl and sieze her divinity. "This spell allowed the caster to become a god of his choosing". Karsus did indeed to just that. Thus, the spell succeeded. The sourcebook could have been exaggerating. But I was poking fun at Karsus. What was written of him though seem to suggest someone who was not wise at all, but very intelligent. -Netheril: Empire of Magic was not written from a 1st person narrative. It was written from a 3rd party omniscient narrative. Thus, it doesn't exaggerate, lie, or otherwise attempt to mislead. Similarly succeed with the same disastrous results? -Perhaps. But, since Targus does not represent something as metaphorically physical as the Weave, there is less of a reason for him to altruistically sacrifice himself, to save others. Thus, certainly is possible that Karsus could have fully wrestled control of his portfolios. Durian are horrible. Peaches and apricots are nice. Blueberries FTW. -I don't like actual blueberries, but I like blueberry pop-tarts and blueberry candy, Go figure. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-06-08, 11:27 PM | -The purpose of the spell was to link himself to Mystryl and sieze her divinity. "This spell allowed the caster to become a god of his choosing". Karsus did indeed to just that. Thus, the spell succeeded. ... Uh, I never said that that it wasn't initially unsuccessful, but that it ultimately failed. *sigh* It ultimately failed. I've been saying that for a while now; starting from last page. At least actually pay attention. -Netheril: Empire of Magic was not written from a 1st person narrative. It was written from a 3rd party omniscient narrative. Thus, it doesn't exaggerate, lie, or otherwise attempt to mislead. So, the wording in the supplement that 'documents' Karsus' stark-raving madness is clad in iron also? Because that's exactly what it says in the accessory. -Perhaps. But, since Targus does not represent something as metaphorically physical as the Weave, there is less of a reason for him to altruistically sacrifice himself, to save others. Thus, certainly is possible that Karsus could have fully wrestled control of his portfolios. Perhaps, perhaps not. A deity would never wish for someone else to usurp his or her portfolio. A benevolent god may self-sacrifice to prevent harm, while a malevolent and malefic deity would take itself out along with much of the world. -I don't like actual blueberries, but I like blueberry pop-tarts and blueberry candy, Go figure. They're nice too. |
| Lord Karsus01-07-08, 12:09 AM | ... Uh, I never said that that it wasn't initially unsuccessful, but that it ultimately failed. *sigh* It ultimately failed. I've been saying that for a while now; starting from last page. At least actually pay attention. -The spell accomplished the goal of making Karsus a deity. It did not fail. So, the wording in the supplement that 'documents' Karsus' stark-raving madness is clad in iron also? Because that's exactly what it says in the accessory. -Yes, it is well documented that Karsus was not all there in the mind. The same problem exists in many of the world's greatest philosophers, artists, teachers, etc. as well. Perhaps, perhaps not. -There's the rub. And, since it can never happen again, we'll never know for sure. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-07-08, 02:05 AM | Heya, G'day. :) G'day! :) Well, I did say that the template could have been latently gifted. Something that the potential Chosen themselves were unaware of but required an external source to activate. I suppose that's possible... But latent means it's waiting to be activated, and it could mean that they age normally before that point. (Remember that all of the Chosen can alter their forms at will, despite it not actually being listed among the Chosen's abilities... Ed Greenwood has mentioned this many times.) In any event, none of the Seven are DvR 0. We know this because it's not mentioned in their writeups. Personally, I think they should, simply because they're the offspring of a deity (and I think this would go for any being who is the child of a mortal and a deity). Durian are horrible. Peaches and apricots are nice. Blueberries FTW. I can bring myself to eat berries sometimes, but a lot of the time they just turn my stomach. :( Which is a shame, because I like the flavour and the smell... it's the texture that kills them for me. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-07-08, 04:31 AM | -The spell accomplished the goal of making Karsus a deity. It did not fail. Except that I never said that the spell did not not accomplish that goal. I however did say that the spell ultimately failed. Is none of this getting through? -Yes, it is well documented that Karsus was not all there in the mind. The same problem exists in many of the world's greatest philosophers, artists, teachers, etc. as well. Some of world's greatest philosophers, artists, teachers were perhaps qualified as bordering or straddling the fine line between genius and madness but none were ever referred to as stark, raving mad. G'day! :) G'day, mate! (mate is irrespective of gender) I suppose that's possible... But latent means it's waiting to be activated, and it could mean that they age normally before that point. (Remember that all of the Chosen can alter their forms at will, despite it not actually being listed among the Chosen's abilities... Ed Greenwood has mentioned this many times.) Not necessarily. Latent can mean that it exists and it has potential but is not yet active. And they could have aged normally, considering that many of the Daughters of Mystra, appearance wise, look like they're in middle-age or approaching it. If they didn't age normally, they would still look fresh-faced like youngsters. In any event, none of the Seven are DvR 0. We know this because it's not mentioned in their writeups. Personally, I think they should, simply because they're the offspring of a deity (and I think this would go for any being who is the child of a mortal and a deity). They weren't the offspring of Mystra per se, rather they were conceived and birthing during Mystra's possession of a mortal. She wasn't there 'in full,' as it were. I don't think that the Bhaalspawn actually had DvR 0 even though Bhaal himself fathered them. This was because he was in avatar form. I would argue a similar case for the Daughters of Mystra, actually a stronger case. A deity wasn't actually there in person to be their birth-mother. I can bring myself to eat berries sometimes, but a lot of the time they just turn my stomach. :( Which is a shame, because I like the flavour and the smell... it's the texture that kills them for me. :0. You're missing out! Berries FTW. |
| Stigger01-07-08, 05:01 AM | Its arguable (that they should be). I prefer to think of them as DvR 0 myself, even if they've been stated not to be I think, but that only really matters at home. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-07-08, 06:08 AM | Heya, G'day, mate! (mate is irrespective of gender) I know that. ;) I am an Aussie, I even come from the same city you do... When I'm not in Shadowdale or at a Party by the Evergold, of course! :P ;) Not necessarily. Latent can mean that it exists and it has potential but is not yet active. And they could have aged normally, considering that many of the Daughters of Mystra, appearance wise, look like they're in middle-age or approaching it. If they didn't age normally, they would still look fresh-faced like youngsters. Well, that might be true if they didn't possess the ability to alter their forms. We can't really tell by their looks, because their looks are mutable. They weren't the offspring of Mystra per se, rather they were conceived and birthing during Mystra's possession of a mortal. She wasn't there 'in full,' as it were. I don't think that the Bhaalspawn actually had DvR 0 even though Bhaal himself fathered them. This was because he was in avatar form. I would argue a similar case for the Daughters of Mystra, actually a stronger case. A deity wasn't actually there in person to be their birth-mother. Okay, I see a problem with that. How else would a deity and a mortal have a child? The deity must use their avatar to impregnate someone (or to become pregnant) - otherwise exposure to the raw presence of the deity would disintegrate the mortal. In fact, Mystra's presence within Eluč did exactly that to Eluč - or started to. I suspect that Mystra was able to slow that process down, but obviously it was not within her power to completely stop it. Eluč had become her avatar, essentially, and carried six of seven children to term, before her life was ended by Dornal. I'm not sure what Mystra was thinking actually, now that I think of it. It would have been far less harmful (though no less intrusive, I suppose) to have possessed Dornal on seven separate and brief occasions, than for her to have possessed Eluč for the length of each pregnancy (and it must have been for the entire time, since each child was a year apart - oooh, I wonder if they all share the same birthday?)... Though I suppose Mystra needed the unborn children to be exposed to her presence throughout the pregnancy to make sure they were sturdy enough to later carry the silverfire... *sigh* *shrug* I dunno. :0. You're missing out! Berries FTW. I know. :( |
| Stigger01-07-08, 06:36 AM | Indeed a certain challenge to Ao if she can't even keep one mortal alive while possessing her... I really wish that theory hadn't ever been thought up (period, not here). |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-07-08, 07:55 AM | Its arguable (that they should be). I prefer to think of them as DvR 0 myself, even if they've been stated not to be I think, but that only really matters at home. They aren't demi or hero-deities though. They shouldn't have divine traits. They're still pretty much mortal. I know that. ;) I am an Aussie, I even come from the same city you do... When I'm not in Shadowdale or at a Party by the Evergold, of course! :P ;) You beauty. Great to see another Aussie on the boards. Happy 26th in advance. Well, that might be true if they didn't possess the ability to alter their forms. We can't really tell by their looks, because their looks are mutable. They can use the spell yes, but they usually wear one set of features. We only know that Khelben is/was more than he seemed. Okay, I see a problem with that. How else would a deity and a mortal have a child? The deity must use their avatar to impregnate someone (or to become pregnant) - otherwise exposure to the raw presence of the deity would disintegrate the mortal. In fact, Mystra's presence within Eluč did exactly that to Eluč - or started to. I suspect that Mystra was able to slow that process down, but obviously it was not within her power to completely stop it. Eluč had become her avatar, essentially, and carried six of seven children to term, before her life was ended by Dornal. There are different ways for a mortal and deity to have a child, a) the deity could impregnate/or be impregnated as the deity; b) as the avatar; c) the deity could possess another mortal; d) the deity could be in another form, ie animal or as a cloud of shifting lights, etc. However, these different methods would result differently. The direct influence of a deity-mortal pairing would result in a demi-god or hero-deity, ie Hercules, one who has actual DvR 0. The avatar may be different because the avatar would only have half the DvR of the deity, so it could be that the offspring may or may not have divine traits, or perhaps some divine traits and not others. The deity in possession of another mortal is different again, it isn't the deity who is procreating with the mortal in question per se, it is both the possessed mortal and the intervening deity. Now, the offspring produced could be different again to the above. The Chosen of Mystra template could, in fact, be the divine traits of that pairing. The Daughters of Mystra and the other Chosen don't and shouldn't have divine traits, they're still pretty much mortals in the sense, they're just different to other mortals. I'm not sure what Mystra was thinking actually, now that I think of it. It would have been far less harmful (though no less intrusive, I suppose) to have possessed Dornal on seven separate and brief occasions, than for her to have possessed Eluč for the length of each pregnancy (and it must have been for the entire time, since each child was a year apart - oooh, I wonder if they all share the same birthday?)... Though I suppose Mystra needed the unborn children to be exposed to her presence throughout the pregnancy to make sure they were sturdy enough to later carry the silverfire... *sigh* *shrug* I dunno. It's actually quite clear. She wasn't thinking. I guess that since Dornal is a man and that Mystra is female or at least presumed to be female then possession of a man would be weird, kinda like how the Bene Gesserit cannot access the male part of the superconscious. Also, Dornal wasn't as susceptible to the influence of a deity or didn't like it or was opposed to it, while Elue welcomed Mystra; Dornal cut off his beloveds' head when it was still possessed by Mystra (after he found out about it) while Elue embraced Mystra. Mystra would have needed to impart her divine essence into the children via the female side, since they are one part of the givers of life and are the bearers of new existence. |
| Old Sage01-07-08, 08:11 AM | You beauty. Great to see another Aussie on the boards. Happy 26th in advance.There are more of us than you know my friend. ;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-07-08, 10:26 AM | From Netheril, Empire of Magic, "He was stark, raving mad. He acted like an excited child most of the time, and his tantrums were to be avoided at all cost[...]Karsus went through many “special friends” during his lifetime. Some in the Karsus Enclave viewed the designation of “special friend” as a death mark." That's like reading a tabloid-esque, tell-all biography written by a disgruntled rival. :rofl: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-07-08, 10:31 AM | I don't think that the Bhaalspawn actually had DvR 0 even though Bhaal himself fathered them. This was because he was in avatar form. I would argue a similar case for the Daughters of Mystra, actually a stronger case. A deity wasn't actually there in person to be their birth-mother. Number one, we don't know the details of how Bhaal impregnated this or that woman. Number two, the Bhaalspawn are always refered to as the "children of Bhaal" not "the children of Bhaal's avatar". And again...the Bhaalspawn, like the Chosen of Mystra, predate the quasi-deity rule we are talking about. |
| Kenzuki01-07-08, 10:31 AM | Mystra is a homewrecker! She's also sick and twisted for growing mutated babies for her own selfish plans! Mystra also eats babies and howls at the moon as she runs naked through the night! - This message sponsered by The Church of Bane. We rule so you don't have to! |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 11:19 AM | -Mystra's Avatar+The Chosen's mother's=KINKY!!!:blush: :thinks: :smirk: :D Sorry guy's and gal's.;) |
| Lord Karsus01-07-08, 12:10 PM | Except that I never said that the spell did not not accomplish that goal. I however did say that the spell ultimately failed. Is none of this getting through? -That the spell achieved it's intended effects means that it did not ultimatley fail. Karsus cast it, he wrestled control of the portfolio of magic from Mystryl, and he became the deity of magic. Where is the failure in the spell? In the end, his plan to save Netheril as the deity of magic fell through, through no fault of his own, or his spell. Some of world's greatest philosophers, artists, teachers were perhaps qualified as bordering or straddling the fine line between genius and madness but none were ever referred to as stark, raving mad. -Depends on your interpretation and definition of 'stark, raving mad'. I'd consider Van Gogh, for example, extremely crazy. |
| MaskedOne01-07-08, 12:28 PM | The spell worked, Karsus failed. There is a difference between a tool failing to accomplish what it was designed to do and the project that said tool is being used for failing. Karsus Avatar (the tool) was specifically designed to wrest control of a god's power from a chosen divinity. It worked. The project of aiding Netheril with the use of Karsus Avatar was an utter failure. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-07-08, 05:25 PM | Heya, They aren't demi or hero-deities though. They shouldn't have divine traits. They're still pretty much mortal. They aren't because their stats don't say they are. But as Rin points out, the Seven Sisters and the Bhaalspawn all predate the 3rd Edition rule concerning mortals and deities. You beauty. Great to see another Aussie on the boards. Happy 26th in advance. Thanks! :D I just hope the day isn't stinkin' hot! :cool: They can use the spell yes, but they usually wear one set of features. We only know that Khelben is/was more than he seemed. Of course they do, but we don't know for sure if those forms are their "natural" forms. If Khelben can stay in one form that isn't his natural form for years and years and years, then so can the rest. There are different ways for a mortal and deity to have a child, a) the deity could impregnate/or be impregnated as the deity; b) as the avatar; c) the deity could possess another mortal; d) the deity could be in another form, ie animal or as a cloud of shifting lights, etc. However, these different methods would result differently. The direct influence of a deity-mortal pairing would result in a demi-god or hero-deity, ie Hercules, one who has actual DvR 0. The avatar may be different because the avatar would only have half the DvR of the deity, so it could be that the offspring may or may not have divine traits, or perhaps some divine traits and not others. Hmm... We don't have any specific rules regarding the different ways a god can sire/bear a child. As Rin points out, we don't call the Bhaalspawn the Children of Bhaal's Avatar, nor do we call the Seven Sisters the Children of Eluč... they are the children of Bhaal, and the daughters of Mystra repectively. The deity in possession of another mortal is different again, it isn't the deity who is procreating with the mortal in question per se, it is both the possessed mortal and the intervening deity. Now, the offspring produced could be different again to the above. The Chosen of Mystra template could, in fact, be the divine traits of that pairing. I think we're going to agree to disagree here, since you're not going to change my mind, and it's obvious to me I'm not going to change yours. The Daughters of Mystra and the other Chosen don't and shouldn't have divine traits, they're still pretty much mortals in the sense, they're just different to other mortals. I disagree quite strongly. And you should know better than to lump the Seven Sisters into the same category as the other Chosen, since only the Seven have a deity in their lineage. But as I said, it looks like I'm at the agree to disagree point with you. :) It's actually quite clear. She wasn't thinking. I guess that since Dornal is a man and that Mystra is female or at least presumed to be female then possession of a man would be weird, kinda like how the Bene Gesserit cannot access the male part of the superconscious. Also, Dornal wasn't as susceptible to the influence of a deity or didn't like it or was opposed to it, while Elue welcomed Mystra; Dornal cut off his beloveds' head when it was still possessed by Mystra (after he found out about it) while Elue embraced Mystra. Mystra would have needed to impart her divine essence into the children via the female side, since they are one part of the givers of life and are the bearers of new existence. *blinks* I know this is difficult to get your mind around if you're not already used to gender as something more than a binary equation, but deities are beyond gender. They don't even need to have a gender in order to sire/bear a child. Look at Zeus for an example - he gave birth to Athena through his head! Sure he'd swallowed her mother. He fathered Perseus on Danae while in the form of a shower of gold! The point I'm trying to make is that the gods are capable of many things that we'd see as weird or strange, but are perfectly normal to them. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-07-08, 07:59 PM | There are more of us than you know my friend. ;) Beaut! :) That's like reading a tabloid-esque, tell-all biography written by a disgruntled rival. :rofl: According to LK, the above fact is ironclad in logic and didn't lie, exaggerate or otherwise attempt to mislead. So, no, it's not going to be like the material one reads in tabloids (biased) or in biographies written by a disgruntled rival (also biased). -Netheril: Empire of Magic was not written from a 1st person narrative. It was written from a 3rd party omniscient narrative. Thus, it doesn't exaggerate, lie, or otherwise attempt to mislead. Number one, we don't know the details of how Bhaal impregnated this or that woman. Number two, the Bhaalspawn are always refered to as the "children of Bhaal" not "the children of Bhaal's avatar". We know that Bhaal foresaw his own death in the Time of Troubles. He fathered children so he could one day sacrifice them for his own return. He would have descended upon the mortal women of Faerun as an avatar or projection of his deifichood. Even if the real Bhaal, and not the avatar fathered them, the telling fact remains that the Bhaalspawn themselves do not have DvR 0 or other divine traits. And again...the Bhaalspawn, like the Chosen of Mystra, predate the quasi-deity rule we are talking about. But does not mean that they should absolutely have them (DvR 0 or divine traits). |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-07-08, 08:15 PM | -That the spell achieved it's intended effects means that it did not ultimatley fail. Karsus cast it, he wrestled control of the portfolio of magic from Mystryl, and he became the deity of magic. Where is the failure in the spell? In the end, his plan to save Netheril as the deity of magic fell through, through no fault of his own, or his spell. The spell worked, Karsus failed. There is a difference between a tool failing to accomplish what it was designed to do and the project that said tool is being used for failing. Karsus Avatar (the tool) was specifically designed to wrest control of a god's power from a chosen divinity. It worked. The project of aiding Netheril with the use of Karsus Avatar was an utter failure. Okay, since none of this is getting through, I'll put it another way. If the spell ultimately succeeded, Karsus would remain a deity to this very day. The point of the spell was for Karsus to become a god and remain a deity indefinitely. Mystryl was already mostly powerless by that stage, Karsus having subsumed full control over the portfolio of magic, however, what he didn't count on was the divine responsibilities that came with the portfolio. Karsus lacked the experience to regulate magic, etc properly, and hence magic surged wildly and unpredictably. With her last ounce of remaining power, Mystryl sacrificed herself to block Karsus' access to the Weave, causing all magic to fail. The spell initially succeeded yes but I wasn't arguing that point, but it ultimately failed because Karsus could not handle it, and so Mystryl sacrificed herself. Yes, Karsus was to blame, but had it been ultimately successful, Karsus would have remained a deity to this day. He didn't wrest full control over the portfolio of magic from Mystryl. And I've been arguing all this time that Karsus ultimately failed in his attempt at divinity. Sure, he may have been the Momentary Deity, but he ultimately failed. We all know that once a deity dies his or her form is cast adrift in the Astral sea. Karsus was not set aside that (mis)fortune nor did he go to the Fugue Plane. Instead, his soul was bound to the Mortal Plane. -Depends on your interpretation and definition of 'stark, raving mad'. I'd consider Van Gogh, for example, extremely crazy. Van Gogh may have been plagued by mental problems, but he wasn't 'stark, raving mad' (extreme psychosis) like Karsus. Van Gogh apparently perhaps suffered from lead poisoning and it has been suggested that he suffered from hypergraphia - characteristed by mania; mania /= psychosis. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-07-08, 08:32 PM | They aren't because their stats don't say they are. But as Rin points out, the Seven Sisters and the Bhaalspawn all predate the 3rd Edition rule concerning mortals and deities. But it doesn't mean one should tag that descriptor on them just for the sake of it. The Bhaalspawn, while more powerful than regular mortals, weren't DvR 0 beings. Since they may have been a result of the direct 'patronage' of the Lord of Murder, this gives further weight to the argument that they shouldn't be/have DvR 0. Thanks! :D I just hope the day isn't stinkin' hot! :cool: It's Melbourne, you know it's four seasons in one day. Of course they do, but we don't know for sure if those forms are their "natural" forms. If Khelben can stay in one form that isn't his natural form for years and years and years, then so can the rest. Do any of them have polymorph or alternate form as a spell-like ability or spell? Khelben was the only named example of someone having an alternative natural form. The others, yes we don't know about that, but it also doesn't necessarily mean that they would have an alternative natural form. Hmm... We don't have any specific rules regarding the different ways a god can sire/bear a child. As Rin points out, we don't call the Bhaalspawn the Children of Bhaal's Avatar, nor do we call the Seven Sisters the Children of Eluč... they are the children of Bhaal, and the daughters of Mystra repectively. We know that divine+angel or fiend = quasi-deity/abomination, ie the infernal. We know that divine+mortal /= DvR 0. To come to think of it, I don't think that Hercules began as a DvR 0 at all. He was stronger than many of his peers (ie was gifted with better ability scores), but that's it. He was very much mortal. Only having died did the ancient Greeks deify him. We know that the Bhaalspawn had better ability scores than their peers but were also pretty much mortal. But yes, there aren't exactly specific rules regarding the different ways a god can sire/bear children. I've given some examples though. I think we're going to agree to disagree here, since you're not going to change my mind, and it's obvious to me I'm not going to change yours. All of this doesn't change the fact that while Mystra had a hand in their conception and birth, they weren't literally Mystra's daughters. But yes, feel free to disagree. I disagree quite strongly. And you should know better than to lump the Seven Sisters into the same category as the other Chosen, since only the Seven have a deity in their lineage. But as I said, it looks like I'm at the agree to disagree point with you. :) I wasn't lumping them in the same category as the other Chosen, my point was that they weren't the literal daughters of Mystra per se, especially not since Mystra was possessing the mortal and was not fully on the mortal coil. *blinks* I know this is difficult to get your mind around if you're not already used to gender as something more than a binary equation, but deities are beyond gender. They don't even need to have a gender in order to sire/bear a child. Look at Zeus for an example - he gave birth to Athena through his head! Sure he'd swallowed her mother. He fathered Perseus on Danae while in the form of a shower of gold! The point I'm trying to make is that the gods are capable of many things that we'd see as weird or strange, but are perfectly normal to them. Don't assume. And if you actually did carefully read my post above, you'd realise that I actually gave an example that the deity could sire or bear children in alternate forms with examples! And it's the Forgotten Realms, you should know better. That particular Mystra was 'raised from mortal stock,' so she could very well have retained aspects of gender, etc. All of the Forgotten Realms, barring some specific examples, favor one gender over the other, and would sire or bear children, ie Bhaal identified as male and sired children, while Mystra identified as female and bore children, in possession of a mortal. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-07-08, 10:20 PM | Heya, But it doesn't mean one should tag that descriptor on them just for the sake of it. The Bhaalspawn, while more powerful than regular mortals, weren't DvR 0 beings. Since they may have been a result of the direct 'patronage' of the Lord of Murder, this gives further weight to the argument that they shouldn't be/have DvR 0. I'd never be doing that just for the sake of doing it, I'd be doing it because I thought their origin warranted it. Obviously, you disagree. It's Melbourne, you know it's four seasons in one day. Hmm... Yeah... But when it's hot, it tends to be hot. :( I'm just glad I'm not living in the mountains any more - I think this summer is going to be really sucky for bush fires. Do any of them have polymorph or alternate form as a spell-like ability or spell? Khelben was the only named example of someone having an alternative natural form. The others, yes we don't know about that, but it also doesn't necessarily mean that they would have an alternative natural form. Khelben, according to his stats, doesn't have an alternate form ability, aside from his spells. Which is what I'm trying to say... By their raw written stats, none of them can change their form by any means other than magic (as far as I can remember). Khelben's alternate "elf blooded, feral as a rampant dragon" form is a literary embellishment of either Elaine Cunningham or Ed Greenwood (whoever wrote that particular segment in the Waterdeep novel) - by his stats (glancing quickly in the ELH, which has his latest writeup (IIRC)) he'd need to use a shape shifting spell to have an alternate form. Ed Greenwood, by the way, says that all of the Chosen can change their forms at will. So we have disagreement between Ed, the novel, and Khelben's stats. Unfortunately, in that situation the stats trump everything else. (Which means, of course, the Seven aren't canonically DvR 0. :P) We know that the Bhaalspawn had better ability scores than their peers but were also pretty much mortal. Ever created a character in BG? Their stats are quite ordinary (at least to start with). And it's the Forgotten Realms, you should know better. That particular Mystra was 'raised from mortal stock,' so she could very well have retained aspects of gender, etc. All of the Forgotten Realms, barring some specific examples, favor one gender over the other, and would sire or bear children, ie Bhaal identified as male and sired children, while Mystra identified as female and bore children, in possession of a mortal. I think this has less to do with the Realms, and more to do with what WotC can and can't get away with in print. For example - Corellon used to be quite openly a gender bender... Now that aspect of him is rarely mentioned in relationship to him... In fact it's not mentioned at all in Faiths and Pantheons. And that's all I'm going to say on the issue. |
| E'tii'stil Shadowsil01-08-08, 06:11 AM | Heya, G'day. I'd never be doing that just for the sake of doing it, I'd be doing it because I thought their origin warranted it. Obviously, you disagree. Well, one would need to back up one's claim with canonical references and sources. Although one should feel free to disagree. Hmm... Yeah... But when it's hot, it tends to be hot. :( I'm just glad I'm not living in the mountains any more - I think this summer is going to be really sucky for bush fires. Global warming and all that I'm afraid. :( Also, Thurs is 40 while Fri is 41; degrees Celsius, that's like 104 F and 106 F. Be afraid, be very afraid. Khelben, according to his stats, doesn't have an alternate form ability, aside from his spells. Which is what I'm trying to say... By their raw written stats, none of them can change their form by any means other than magic (as far as I can remember). Novels do make a habit of being mostly completely different from their sourcebook counterparts and vice versa. The material in sourcebook sometimes, but more often than not, doesn't much up to what it is written in the novels at all. However, that in itself may mean something. Khelben's alternate "elf blooded, feral as a rampant dragon" form is a literary embellishment of either Elaine Cunningham or Ed Greenwood (whoever wrote that particular segment in the Waterdeep novel) - by his stats (glancing quickly in the ELH, which has his latest writeup (IIRC)) he'd need to use a shape shifting spell to have an alternate form. So, who is correct? The authors? Or the designers? That's the fundamental question, and one that is complex by itself. It's a terrible shame how novels and sourcebooks can't be reconciled or are reconciled with extreme difficulty. Steven Schend should have an answer, it's his character after all. Ed Greenwood, by the way, says that all of the Chosen can change their forms at will. So we have disagreement between Ed, the novel, and Khelben's stats. Unfortunately, in that situation the stats trump everything else. (Which means, of course, the Seven aren't canonically DvR 0. :P) That is very unfortunate. Sourebooks need to agree with novels need to agree with the designers and originator/s of the setting. Of course now that WotC doesn't really listen to EG, and sometimes even ignores what he has written before...well, there you go. Ever created a character in BG? Their stats are quite ordinary (at least to start with). I've played both BG 1 and BG 2, which is the reason I brought it up. Also, the main char and his sister had to be so low a level in order to ensure scaling and ensure that the content of the game is used. Considering how big and long the game is, it'd be a waste of the developer's time and effort for the main char to suddenly face the baddie without thought for plot exposition or adventure, etc. Many Bhaalspawn are powerful, but not all. The Five were the most powerful, while others were more mundane, even weak, but all of this lends greater weight to the argument that even those of divine-mortal stock can be weak and 'ineffectual.' I think this has less to do with the Realms, and more to do with what WotC can and can't get away with in print. For example - Corellon used to be quite openly a gender bender... Now that aspect of him is rarely mentioned in relationship to him... In fact it's not mentioned at all in Faiths and Pantheons. Yes, there needs to be less discrepancy and more inter-connectedness. He's still quite androgynous; refer to Deities and Demigods. And that's all I'm going to say on the issue. Okay. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-08-08, 11:58 AM | But does not mean that they should absolutely have them (DvR 0 or divine traits). I wasn't necessarily arguing that.:) Just pointing out that the characters we are talking about don't have a divine rank of 0 mainly because they predate the rule for that. Whether or not they "should" have a DvR 0 is a matter of opinion. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-08-08, 12:04 PM | Regarding the Seven Sisters: they have been referred to as the daughters of Mystra in sources. Storm has asked Ed about what we are talking about here, and I'm pretty sure Ed's going to confirm that the Sisters ARE the daughters of Mystra, even if he doesn't agree that they should have divine ranks of 0. Regarding Khelben, I don't understand how "elf-blooded, feral as a rampant dragon" can be taken to literally mean he has an alternate dragon-form.:confused: Khelben is elf-blooded of course, by virtue of birth. But "feral as a rampant dragon" is quite obviously a simile. |
| Alediran01-08-08, 12:25 PM | And the OP never appeared again. It seems his thread was bait to attract Elminster haters. Because his plans where utterly useless he'll not show up again. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-08-08, 05:56 PM | Heya, Well, one would need to back up one's claim with canonical references and sources. Although one should feel free to disagree. The only time a person should be bound by canonical references, is when they're talking canon Realms. If I preface my statements with - In my Realms - then I don't need to stick to canon. :) Canonically, the Seven Sisters are the Daughters of Mystra. Canonically, the Seven Sisters don't have DvR 0. There are plenty of references that can be found to the former. The lack of mention in stat blocks makes the latter canon. Global warming and all that I'm afraid. :( Also, Thurs is 40 while Fri is 41; degrees Celsius, that's like 104 F and 106 F. Be afraid, be very afraid. Yeah, I saw that. Hopefully it's not too humid, we rely on Evaporative Cooling to keep temperatures reasonable. Novels do make a habit of being mostly completely different from their sourcebook counterparts and vice versa. The material in sourcebook sometimes, but more often than not, doesn't much up to what it is written in the novels at all. However, that in itself may mean something. It means that novels shouldn't be canon. At least, not considered completely canon - perhaps the main events should roughly be canon, and included in timelines and such, but the details shouldn't... Maybe they should hire a continuity editor? I'm qualified (as an editor, but I've got not much in the way of experience, unfortunately)! :P So, who is correct? The authors? Or the designers? That's the fundamental question, and one that is complex by itself. It's a terrible shame how novels and sourcebooks can't be reconciled or are reconciled with extreme difficulty. Steven Schend should have an answer, it's his character after all. As far as I'm concerned, the order of sources is thus... Canon sourcebooks > Ed Greenwood > FR designers > Novels Authors > Novels. Best arguments are built entirely on the first item in the list. Ed Greenwood's words are canon unless contradicted by the first item, so he's next. The designers supposedly (:rolleyes:) know what they're doing when it comes to canon sources, so they come next. Authors should have a good working knowledge of the Realms, and when they're talking about something outside the context of their novel(s) they're almost as good as FR designers for canon facts. Novels come last since they're often filled with literary embellishments and poetic license - they should not be trusted, and stuff from novels should only ever be brought into it when a source higher on the list backs it up. That is very unfortunate. Sourebooks need to agree with novels need to agree with the designers and originator/s of the setting. Of course now that WotC doesn't really listen to EG, and sometimes even ignores what he has written before...well, there you go. IMHO, novels need to agree with source books, not the other way around. There's a reason why when you ask a novel author "who would win between Elminster and Drizzt?" The answer should invariably be "depends on who's writing and what the purpose of the fight would be." If you were asking from a straight rules perspective - well you can find out easily enough, just get two skilled players to take the roles of each character in a battle to the -10th hit point. (I believe the winner would be Elminster using 3.5e rules.) I've played both BG 1 and BG 2, which is the reason I brought it up. Also, the main char and his sister had to be so low a level in order to ensure scaling and ensure that the content of the game is used. Considering how big and long the game is, it'd be a waste of the developer's time and effort for the main char to suddenly face the baddie without thought for plot exposition or adventure, etc. Yeah, but <CHARNAME> and Imoen don't even get any freebies at level 1... Mind you, Imoen was never intended to be a Bhaalspawn in the first game. Many Bhaalspawn are powerful, but not all. The Five were the most powerful, while others were more mundane, even weak, but all of this lends greater weight to the argument that even those of divine-mortal stock can be weak and 'ineffectual.' Wasn't there a rabbit Bhaalspawn? lol Games aren't canon. The Novels, at best, imply that some Bhaalspawn's power is latent. Yes, there needs to be less discrepancy and more inter-connectedness. He's still quite androgynous; refer to Deities and Demigods. Hmm... Yeah. I seem to remember that (too lazy to get up and grab the book right now). Still, they're very careful with it. Regarding Khelben, I don't understand how "elf-blooded, feral as a rampant dragon" can be taken to literally mean he has an alternate dragon-form.:confused: Khelben is elf-blooded of course, by virtue of birth. But "feral as a rampant dragon" is quite obviously a simile. Indeed. But the alternate form argument for Khelben is not that he has a dragon form, but that his true physical form looks quite different to the form he wears from day to day. The quote from the book (which happens to be in the same room) is this... "Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun, Archmage of Waterdeep, stood atop the gigantic stone gate-lintel. In the throes of spellcasting, he let slip the face and form he'd worn for many a year. Briefly, all eyes could see him as Laeral did: tall, ageless, elf-blooded, feral as a rampant dragon, barely recognizable as a mortal being." So that is where the confusion might come from. It just means that his true physical form and his normal day to day appearance are different. I think normally he looks just like Khelben the Younger, but that form Laeral sees him as is his true form. The description of the form itself is a literary embelishment, I think... Khelben's father was a half elf and his mother was human IIRC (I could be wrong), so he wouldn't look any more elf like than any other quarter elf, IMHO. At this rate, we could probably make yet another elven subrace "the quarter elf" for all the extra abilities people seem to be attributing to it. :P (Please note, I've use this convention in a story myself. One character I wrote is quarter elven, and she ages slower than a human, but faster than a half elf (she looks the same age or perhaps older than her half-elven mother).) Oh, and did you know that Khelben Arunsun is a pirate? Why, I saw him on the Blackbeard server for Pirates of the Burning Sea last night... :D :P :D :cool: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-08-08, 08:43 PM | Khelben's father was a half elf and his mother was human IIRC (I could be wrong), so he wouldn't look any more elf like than any other quarter elf, IMHO. That's correct.:) And thank you for the full quote, also. I tend to think of humans who are 1/4 elf has having--at the least--sharp, fine facial features that allude to the features that elves tend to have.:) Slower aging would make sense as well. Oh, and did you know that Khelben Arunsun is a pirate? Why, I saw him on the Blackbeard server for Pirates of the Burning Sea last night... :D :P :D :cool: HA HA! |
| 18DELTA01-09-08, 02:57 AM | -I like Elminster, he is not as awesome as Lord Karsus BTW!!! :emp: Lord DELTA:fight!: |
| Mordakay of Thay01-09-08, 07:14 AM | Okay, since none of this is getting through, I'll put it another way. If the spell ultimately succeeded, Karsus would remain a deity to this very day. The point of the spell was for Karsus to become a god and remain a deity indefinitely. Mystryl was already mostly powerless by that stage, Karsus having subsumed full control over the portfolio of magic, however, what he didn't count on was the divine responsibilities that came with the portfolio. Karsus lacked the experience to regulate magic, etc properly, and hence magic surged wildly and unpredictably. With her last ounce of remaining power, Mystryl sacrificed herself to block Karsus' access to the Weave, causing all magic to fail. The spell initially succeeded yes but I wasn't arguing that point, but it ultimately failed because Karsus could not handle it, and so Mystryl sacrificed herself. Yes, Karsus was to blame, but had it been ultimately successful, Karsus would have remained a deity to this day. He didn't wrest full control over the portfolio of magic from Mystryl. And I've been arguing all this time that Karsus ultimately failed in his attempt at divinity. Sure, he may have been the Momentary Deity, but he ultimately failed. We all know that once a deity dies his or her form is cast adrift in the Astral sea. Karsus was not set aside that (mis)fortune nor did he go to the Fugue Plane. Instead, his soul was bound to the Mortal Plane. You're still saying that the spell failed.It didn't cover the possibility of Mystra's sacrifice,nor did it cover the possibility that,in the gradual time it took to drain Mystra of her powers,she might still have enough power left to do what she did.A spell with all those conditions was imposible to create even for Karsus.He probably knew well the risks,but he was also pressed to the wall by the Phaerimm crysis that besset Netheril.This wasn't the only reason he wanted to become a god,it was also for the power obviously.I like to view him as not all selfish in his reasons and actions.Depends on your point of view. In the end the spell itself didn't fail at all,it did what it was intended to do. |
| Alediran01-09-08, 07:43 AM | Storm: I understand how you feel with the heat, here in Argentina we are boiling alive at 42 celsius degrees too. |
| Khaelieth01-09-08, 07:47 AM | Or like it was here not too long ago... -20 celsius. Freezy freezy! |
| Storm_Silverhand01-09-08, 04:36 PM | Heya, Or like it was here not too long ago... -20 celsius. Freezy freezy! I think I'd personally rather -20 C compared to the +41 C it's going to be here today and tomorrow. *sigh* |
| MarkusTay6301-09-08, 05:32 PM | Well, we hit 60ş yesterday here - thats about 16 Celsius, and an insanely high temperture for NY in January! Global Warming here we come... :rolleyes: At least we don't have to worry about a 'Spellplague' :P Speaking of Khelben, does anyone else think that while Elminster appears to be one version of Gandalf/Belgarad/Merlin etc.., that Khelben seems to be a knock-off of Mordenkainen, Dr. Strange, and Randal Savage? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e3/Dungeon_cover_112.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/DoctorStrangeDVD.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c5/VandalSavage.jpg Well, Khelben's been around a long time, so I suppose he could of fathered two of them, but Vandal Savage is 52,000 years old, so h's got the Blackstaff beat there. |
| Lord Karsus01-10-08, 08:09 PM | Well, we hit 60ş yesterday here - thats about 16 Celsius, and an insanely high temperture for NY in January! Global Warming here we come... :rolleyes: -Isn't Global Warming supposed to make things cooler? Feh, whatever...:rolleyes: |
| Alediran01-10-08, 09:22 PM | -Isn't Global Warming supposed to make things cooler? Feh, whatever...:rolleyes: It's first a wave of heat that melts the polar ice, which alters the currents of the oceans, causing an ice age after some time passed. The end result is called Waterworld, with Kevin Costner as the nameless mutant fish-man. |
| MarkusTay6301-10-08, 09:35 PM | Waterworld :yuck: Just shoot me now. -Isn't Global Warming supposed to make things cooler? Feh, whatever...:rolleyes:No... thats Nuclear Winter. ;) |
| Lord Karsus01-10-08, 11:24 PM | -Meh, I don't buy into it much. That's neither here nor there though. -Khelben is indeed very Dr. Strange-like. |
| 18DELTA01-11-08, 12:44 AM | -Global warming, Nuclear Winter...it doesn't matter RICHARD BAKER STILL MUST BE STOPPED!!!:D LORD DELTA:fight!: |
| Old Sage01-11-08, 12:53 AM | -Khelben is indeed very Dr. Strange-like.No, no... Khelben is Batman-like. ;) |
| MarkusTay6301-11-08, 01:02 AM | Hey Sage, are Mordenkainen and Khelben related? :confused: I know the real Khelben Arunsun (the Blackstaff's Grandson) lives in Greyhawk, and according to 2e canon Khelben Blackstaff used to visit there often (along with other notables, like El and Vangy), so I know it's possible, but has anything like that ever been discussed over at CK? Personally, I always thought it would be cool if the real Khelben turned out to BE Mordenkainen. Hmmmm... I just realized that Frye (Futurama) and Khelben have something in common - they are both their own Granpa! :dancin: |
| Lord Karsus01-11-08, 01:10 AM | No, no... Khelben is Batman-like. ;) -In terms of look. |
| Philalexandros01-11-08, 04:23 AM | Hmm, I'm not sure, Lord Karsus. I can see where you're coming from, but Dr. Strange was always a lot more hands-off than Khelben has been--at least by comparison. Khelben also seems to have been possessed of a temper much more like Batman's than Dr. Strange's. Strange was far more often depicted as the outsider looking in, seemingly unable to conjure up much more than philosophical and arcane insights or indignation and horror at aburdly dangerous decisions. Batman, on the other seems to share some of Khelben's grimness, determination, and frustration toward both villains and so-called heroes who don't do as he feels they should. "The Dark Knight Returns" reinforces this feeling even more, with the reformed hoods-turned Sons of Batman even playing as correlaries to Khelben's Moonstars. Cheers, P. |
| Old Sage01-11-08, 08:29 AM | An analogy I've used before that might help is Khelben as the Batman... being arrogant and smart and paranoid enough to want to work behind everyone's backs and he only truly trusts those he's personally trained/recruited to do his work, even when it seems he works against his own outside allies. Steven Schend has said he sees "Khelben as Batman/'darker hero' to Elminster as Superman/approachable 'lighter hero.'" It is one parallel he's always had in mind since 1990 when he first got the chance to work with Khelben [and Ed.] |
| Old Sage01-11-08, 08:31 AM | Hey Sage, are Mordenkainen and Khelben related? :confused: I know the real Khelben Arunsun (the Blackstaff's Grandson) lives in Greyhawk, and according to 2e canon Khelben Blackstaff used to visit there often (along with other notables, like El and Vagy), so I know it's possible, but has anything like that ever been discussed over at CK?You know, I don't recall ever reading anything exclusively about this. I would offer a tentative "no" for the most part. As it is, the closest Realms comparison of Mordenkainen, is Khelben Arunsun. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-11-08, 11:44 AM | Steven Schend has said he sees "Khelben as Batman/'darker hero' to Elminster as Superman/approachable 'lighter hero.'" It is one parallel he's always had in mind since 1990 when he first got the chance to work with Khelben [and Ed.] With all due respect to Mr. Schend, I've never agreed with that analogy. I think it works only in the vaguest sense (besides, isn't Elminster not supposed to be a "superhero"?--I'm uncomfortable with comparing him to one too much). |
| MarkusTay6301-11-08, 12:06 PM | It's IS vague, Rinon; its supposed to be the closest comparison to two well-known arch-types. El has his tower located in a remote wilderness region (the Fortress of Solitude), and Khelben has his 'lair' located in the heart of a major city (with a seedy 'underworld' - literally). I'm sure Khelben even has a cave-entrance in the Sea-Cliffs that lead beneath stately Blackstaff Tower, that he can fly his 'Khelben Carpet' into. ;) Personally, I see Khelben a little like all three of the men I mentioned above, with Batman's secretiveness thrown in. Hey Sage, does Khelben carry a piece of "Elminstranite" in his utility belt - in case Elminster every 'gets out of hand'. :D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-11-08, 12:08 PM | It's IS vague, Rinon; its supposed to be the closest comparison to two well-known arch-types. I guess my response to that would then be "it's close, but no cigar". Again, that's just my opinion, I'm not trying to be disrespectful of Mr. Schend or those who like this particular analogy. |
| MarkusTay6301-11-08, 12:13 PM | I know how much you hate direct analogies, Rin - most of us FR fans do - but sometimes they need to be made, so that 'newbs' can get some idea of what the person, place, or thing is like. Its just to establish the BASIC flavor, not to 'pin it down' precisely. But I know where your coming from. ;) Also, remember, we're not talking about the 60's 'silly Batman' from the TV series, or the one from the Silver Age comics, we are talking about the darker, brooding batman of the 90's. He's getting old, and bitter, and not sure if any of them are really making any bit of difference. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-11-08, 01:26 PM | I know how much you hate direct analogies, Rin - most of us FR fans do - but sometimes they need to be made, so that 'newbs' can get some idea of what the person, place, or thing is like. Its just to establish the BASIC flavor, not to 'pin it down' precisely. But I know where your coming from. ;) I thought so.:) See, it's bad enough that people constantly refer to Elminster and the Chosen as "the Justice League of the Realms", and people who know better need to go out and dispel these rumors. I don't think it's a good idea to be comparing Elminster to Superman of all beings when Chosen-haters like to latch on to this idea that the Chosen are "superheroes" who are all about taking direct action against evil and are better in every single way than most other people. |
| Kenzuki01-11-08, 02:34 PM | Well Elminster is a hero and he is pretty super compared to other folk. So I guess the term "super hero" can be applied to him. Of course to a Banite Church Fzoul is a Super Hero too hehe. |
| MarkusTay6301-11-08, 02:38 PM | No, he is a Super-villain. Doesn't the cheesy, easily-twirled, mustache make it obvious? :confused: Hero's are not allowed those mustaches- it's in the Super Hero Handbook. Goatees are allowed, but only if the hero is 'dark'. ;) Edit: Sideburns only if the person exibits 'beastial' traits. |
| Lord Karsus01-11-08, 07:46 PM | Hmm, I'm not sure, Lord Karsus. -Again, I meant it in terms of appearence. |
| Old Sage01-11-08, 07:50 PM | Hey Sage, does Khelben carry a piece of "Elminstranite" in his utility belt - in case Elminster every 'gets out of hand'. :DYou know... I'm starting to think this would be a tale Frank Miller would just love to tackle -- "Khelben: The Blackstaff Returns." |
| Philalexandros01-12-08, 02:57 AM | -Again, I meant it in terms of appearence. Even so! :D I may not be familiar enough with Khelben's appearance. The one's I've seen are largely black/dark robes, etc. By contrast, the Sorcerer Supreme looks very 70s-ish... Blues, reds, golds, tights for pants, mustache yet no beard, etc. I know, I know... opinions and all that. :) |
| Lord Karsus01-12-08, 03:07 AM | http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/1/18/Khelben_Arunsun.jpg -Compare to the image posted above, by MT. |
| Philalexandros01-12-08, 06:18 AM | http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/images/e/e3/DoctorStrange%28Steven%29_Head.jpg As compared to this? ;) |
| MerrikCale01-12-08, 09:53 AM | whose dormannu then? |
| Old Sage01-12-08, 10:15 AM | Given Khelben as Dr. Strange... Hmmm... Fzoul as Dormammu? |
| rikkiwalker01-12-08, 11:50 AM | Elminster to me is a bit boring...I like him and all but what is the point of having an incredibly old and powerful wizard running around the realms who never does anything??? I am tired of the lame old excuse of preserving game balance. |
| Khaelieth01-12-08, 12:13 PM | Sooooo... Halaster's the Joker then? And Fzoul's Penguin? And more importantly, who's Catwoman and Poison Ivy? |
| Lord Karsus01-12-08, 03:36 PM | And more importantly, who's Catwoman and Poison Ivy? -Your mom. :cool: |
| Mordakay of Thay01-12-08, 05:02 PM | :)) |
| Khaelieth01-12-08, 05:25 PM | -Your mom. :cool: Well, at least she's having fun=) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-12-08, 07:15 PM | Elminster to me is a bit boring...I like him and all but what is the point of having an incredibly old and powerful wizard running around the realms who never does anything??? I am tired of the lame old excuse of preserving game balance. Who said he "doesn't do anything?" |
| GothicDan01-12-08, 07:38 PM | And the "use" of him is to represent an actual fictional facsimile of a real characterized individual, not a cardboard cut out Archmage whose actions and implementations are totally at the whim of what is temporally defined as "cool." |
| Old Sage01-12-08, 08:38 PM | Elminster to me is a bit boring...I like him and all but what is the point of having an incredibly old and powerful wizard running around the realms who never does anything??? I am tired of the lame old excuse of preserving game balance.Have you actually read the "Elminster" series of novels? |
| Lord Karsus01-13-08, 02:04 AM | Well, at least she's having fun=) -Who wouldn't have fun playing such roles? |
| The_Shaman01-13-08, 10:00 AM | You know... I'm starting to think this would be a tale Frank Miller would just love to tackle -- "Khelben: The Blackstaff Returns." I think Sememmon might be more to his liking. IIRC he has a penchant for dark heroes, and Sememmon might have a good few reasons to go out of retirement if his former friends decide to mess with him. |
| Khaelieth01-13-08, 11:53 AM | -Who wouldn't have fun playing such roles? Your mum?;) |
| Eli_the_Tanner01-13-08, 04:44 PM | Elminster to me is a bit boring...I like him and all but what is the point of having an incredibly old and powerful wizard running around the realms who never does anything??? I am tired of the lame old excuse of preserving game balance. I do believe Elminster himself answers this age-old question in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. I think you'll gain a good insight into how much El does do (and why) from reading a few of his novels. |
| The_Shaman01-13-08, 06:05 PM | That, and he happens to have quite a few things to do as it is. He's doing work for Mystra, keeping an eye on the Harpers, keeping another eye on the Seven, keeping another eye* on the Simbul (and possible a hand or two, when he can spare), keeping another eye on a handful of villains or wanna-be villains... Hell, a day's got only 24 hours even for him. *: he's an archmage, it's no problem for him. |
| Khaelieth01-13-08, 06:34 PM | I like Elminster, he's the Realms incarnate to me. |
| halaster5357901-15-08, 05:16 PM | I like Elminster way better than Gandalf or Merlin. |
| Kenzuki01-16-08, 10:18 AM | The only novels I've read with Elminster are Making of a Mage and the Avatar series. I have the others just haven't gotten around to reading them hehe. Maybe I'll like him better once I've read the rest. Alustriel and Storm seem interesting, though the whole idea of Silverymoon having "court orgies" as I've heard disturbs me somewhat. |
| Lord Karsus01-16-08, 02:41 PM | Alustriel and Storm seem interesting, though the whole idea of Silverymoon having "court orgies" as I've heard disturbs me somewhat. -Nine times out of ten, the mention of gratuitious sexual activity is unnecessary. |
| Uzzy01-16-08, 03:59 PM | You know... I'm starting to think this would be a tale Frank Miller would just love to tackle -- "Khelben: The Blackstaff Returns." I have horrible images of Khelben shouting 'I'm the ******* Blackstaff!' to some poor new apprentice. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-16-08, 05:38 PM | Heya, Alustriel and Storm seem interesting, though the whole idea of Silverymoon having "court orgies" as I've heard disturbs me somewhat. Of course it does. But do you know why? It's because of the society you live in, and presumably how you've been brought up. The Realms as a whole has a different attitude towards sex and sexuality than we do here on Earth. Personally, the idea of court orgies doesn't disturb me at all. It is what it is. (Though sometimes I wish we were a little more relaxed about such things here on Earth too... it'd be nice not to have people running around trying to deny others rights simply because of what they do in their bedrooms.) |
| DarkSongKnight01-16-08, 05:53 PM | Heya, Of course it does. But do you know why? It's because of the society you live in, and presumably how you've been brought up. The Realms as a whole has a different attitude towards sex and sexuality than we do here on Earth. Personally, the idea of court orgies doesn't disturb me at all. It is what it is. (Though sometimes I wish we were a little more relaxed about such things here on Earth too... it'd be nice not to have people running around trying to deny others rights simply because of what they do in their bedrooms.) Agreed! Thats one of the many reasons as to why I like the Realms! Though its often hard to get people to set aside their real world beliefs/opinions from their characters in-game... And Elminster is a very interesting character, IMO. Hes a walking library! :D Knowledge itself is very powerful. |
| Khaelieth01-16-08, 06:20 PM | Heya, Of course it does. But do you know why? It's because of the society you live in, and presumably how you've been brought up. The Realms as a whole has a different attitude towards sex and sexuality than we do here on Earth. Personally, the idea of court orgies doesn't disturb me at all. It is what it is. (Though sometimes I wish we were a little more relaxed about such things here on Earth too... it'd be nice not to have people running around trying to deny others rights simply because of what they do in their bedrooms.) Forget mosquitos and malaria! Talona just became godess of STD's! |
| MarkusTay6301-16-08, 06:51 PM | I thought that was her sister, Veneria... :thinks: |
| GreenKnight01-16-08, 06:51 PM | This thread has TEH AIDS. |
| Lord Karsus01-16-08, 07:06 PM | -A simple Cure Disease spell should fix that. |
| DarkSongKnight01-16-08, 07:08 PM | Clerics FTW! :D |
| Storm_Silverhand01-17-08, 01:37 AM | Heya, Forget mosquitos and malaria! Talona just became godess of STD's! When you have divine magic that can cure diseases... even attitudes towards illness would change. (Does anyone ever think that if we could just shed the "sex is teh ebil" attitude, we might find that people would take better care of themselves? I know this is probably opening a can of worms that really doesn't belong in this forum, but better education and a better attitude would probably go a long way to making inroads on STDs.) |
| Stigger01-17-08, 03:41 AM | Couldn't agree more there Zandilar... on the STD issue and that it is probably opening up a discussion not suited for here. The abstinance programs the US runs are rather chilling proof of that concept, given that teen STD rates have risen dramatically since they went into effect, particularly since they don't generally cover contraceptive use and its benefits for preventing STDs. But that's neither here nor there. Personally, one of my major gripes with the changes coming with 4e is the idea of social tolerance that seems to be prevalent in the Realms, and how the contraction of the pantheon is likely to affect that if this is handled realistically. Generally speaking, societies base themselves on the twin axes of religion and procreation, and their attitudes towards both go a long way to determining the general level of tolerance in the society. The sheer breadth of different faiths co-existing peacefully said a lot about that, and shrinking and redefining that idea is a devastatingly huge alteration to the flavor of the Realms in general, on a scale that is almost mind-boggling. For me, that's the goodwill-killer clause for the 4e Realms. |
| Khaelieth01-17-08, 08:18 AM | -A simple Cure Disease spell should fix that. True, but detecting STD's isn't always that easy. Some have no visible effect other than making the woman barren, well, there's some other nastiness too, but now going into that atm. And clerics would want monies too. Could most Realmsians afford that? If Talona was gonna give the Realms an STD, she wouldn't settle for chlamydia. Veneral lycanthropy variations ftw! And as for contraceptives... In Scotland, they're free to us students if we fill out the right forms! Hell, yes! |
| Lord Karsus01-17-08, 11:19 AM | True, but detecting STD's isn't always that easy. Some have no visible effect other than making the woman barren, well, there's some other nastiness too, but now going into that atm. And clerics would want monies too. Could most Realmsians afford that? -I know next to nothing about any of that, but I am sure that most nobles/royals/uppclassmen have the funds to hire a Cleric whenever they have...reason to suspect something's up. |
| The_Shaman01-17-08, 12:41 PM | True, but detecting STD's isn't always that easy. Some have no visible effect other than making the woman barren, well, there's some other nastiness too, but now going into that atm. And clerics would want monies too. Could most Realmsians afford that? It depends. Most wouldn't, if they paid by the typical table in the DMG, but I always thought there was something like a commoner discount. I'm quite sure there were discounts when the cleric is of your own faith, or even of an allied one - i.e. the Triad, Selune/Mystra, Sune/Sharess, Talos/Auril, etc. Second, the Heal skill is not necessarily expensive, and probably the Realmsian healers have quite a bit of knowledge in the field of STDs ;) . Perhaps only the worst cases get a spell treatment? Also, IMO without (a lot of) stigma being attached to sexuality, people will likely go to the healers much more quickly. That itself should limit the spread of diseases significantly. BTW, back on the topic (somewhat) is there a good estimate of what children Elminster has fathered in his 1000+ years? I remember a novel being called Elminster's daughter, but I doubt there's only one ;) |
| Storm_Silverhand01-17-08, 04:37 PM | Heya, BTW, back on the topic (somewhat) is there a good estimate of what children Elminster has fathered in his 1000+ years? I remember a novel being called Elminster's daughter, but I doubt there's only one ;) I don't know, but I'd say there'd be a lot - he is incredibly old and has had many opportunities. :) Filfaeril and Laspeera are both descendants of his children (Ed clarified this on Candlekeep, since both claimed to be his daughters in the novel Elminster's Daughter, saying they'd stretched the truth to make Narnra feel better), while Narnra is his daughter directly. You need to take into account that he only sires children when Mystra wills it (though I doubt he would be directly told by Mystra "get a child on this woman", it would more be a case of her subtly guiding him to someone and letting nature take it's course... though she usually lets him know what's up at some point, but apparently didn't in Narnra's case... Oh and there's another fine NPC who will fade into history and end up being another abandoned plot line. *sigh*) (On another note on the same theme: Poor Storm. She's gone through her life wanting to bear a child herself, but either she's physically barren and/or Mystra hasn't wanted her to have kids - and all this time some of her other sisters have had them (Alustriel being the most prolific)... Now it'll never happen... Damn you 4e Realms!) |
| Lord Karsus01-18-08, 04:57 AM | (On another note on the same theme: Poor Storm. She's gone through her life wanting to bear a child herself, but either she's physically barren and/or Mystra hasn't wanted her to have kids - and all this time some of her other sisters have had them (Alustriel being the most prolific)... Now it'll never happen... Damn you 4e Realms!) -As far as I know, nothing specifically says that Storm won't be around, though, with events happening as we know they will, I don't think it looks too good for her... |
| Storm_Silverhand01-18-08, 06:22 AM | Heya, -As far as I know, nothing specifically says that Storm won't be around, though, with events happening as we know they will, I don't think it looks too good for her... Even if she does survive, if she is physically barren and not just childless because Mystra willed it, then she still won't have a kid - unless some other god takes pity on her... All this talk about new stories to tell about Cyric, and just blithely ignoring all the story lines that have been cut off by the massive alterations to the setting... :nonono: |
| The_Shaman01-18-08, 11:42 AM | Even if she does survive, if she is physically barren and not just childless because Mystra willed it, then she still won't have a kid - unless some other god takes pity on her... Well if her infertility is not because of Mystra but a physical problem, it will probably be a matter for a mid-high level cleric at the most. She should have no problems paying for the spell, although Storm Silverhand owing you a favor is imo worth a lot more than all the gold you can carry. |
| Alediran01-18-08, 01:10 PM | Well if her infertility is not because of Mystra but a physical problem, it will probably be a matter for a mid-high level cleric at the most. She should have no problems paying for the spell, although Storm Silverhand owing you a favor is imo worth a lot more than all the gold you can carry. Well, she is going to owe a favor to my players if they survive CotSQ, it was her that choose them to deal with the problem of drows raiding the surface (4 of the characters are recently made Harpers, including Alediran. Yep, I'm a "meddler" :P ) |
| johnkretzer01-18-08, 02:10 PM | True, but detecting STD's isn't always that easy. Some have no visible effect other than making the woman barren, well, there's some other nastiness too, but now going into that atm. And clerics would want monies too. Could most Realmsians afford that? Well I think clerics of Sharess, Lliira and to a certain extent Sune would offer those spells for free to people like after a battle a cleric of Tempus would freely heal the survivors. Remember clerics are granted spells not to make money but to promote their god's or goddess's portfolios. And nothing would hurt these goddesses like a STD. So it would actualy be a part of their duty to cast these spells. mmmm that would make for a interesting Talona plot.... |
| Charles Phipps01-18-08, 02:21 PM | I like Elminster because he's 200% :censored: not guilty. And if you :censored: don't find him innocent then you can :censored: kiss m....oh wait, I'm sorry, I was temporarilly channeling Crow T. Robot from Mystery Science Theatre. Ultimately, I disagree with the Batman/Superman analogy because Elminster is much closer to Slapstick (obscure reference) of all people. Basically; Elminster is the weird Uncle of the Forgotten Realms who wanders into family gatherings, gets utterly loaded, hits on your friends, then passes out in the figgy pudding. You tolerate him because he's family. I've used Elminster dozens of times but he's like a Ren'N'Stimpy or Animaniacs character in that he's operating at a completely different level from anyone else. Arguably; he's on your side but the man is a lunatic, possesses godlike power, and more knowledge than anyone else on faerun. Honestly, I've always felt hesitant about using Halastar the mad because it seems like after El, anything would be a disappointment. P.S. Sex is the most important thing in people's lives with violence a close second. People will always either demonize or deify sex/violence. I'm not particularly on the path of deifying it either since people take everything way too far. |
| MarkusTay6301-18-08, 06:20 PM | Well, Halaster is just the Imaskari version of El. So intead of having him hit on your friends, just say he looks at them for a minute or two in deep thought, and then changes their arms into Octopus tentancles, and says "There, thats better", and POOF, he disappears. Then you need to find El to change them back.... :P The Chosen From how I understand it, ALL of Mystra's Chosen are on her special 'Birth Control' program, and will only have children with Mystra's say-so. That means, to me anyway, that once Mystra is out of the picture, normal 'natural things' should kick back in, and having sex would indeed produce a child. That is, if Storm was not Barren to begin with - But I really don't think, with all the Silver Fire and Healing magic flowing through her, not to mention her Goddess's blessing. that she would have remained 'broken' after being made a Chosen. It just wouldn't make sense, in my mind. Even if Mystra didn't want her 'with child', she still would have repaired any type of internal problems her Chosen may have had. |
| Kenzuki01-18-08, 06:43 PM | I don't have anything against Miss Alustriel, she seems like a really cool character to me from what I've read about her. It's just for some reason I don't think I could take her seriously if I walked into her court and discovered her behaving like a prostitute. Maybe what Storm said about being raised and stuff is true who knows, I think even if I was living in Faerun I still think I'de be more conservative when it comes to sex. It's not that I see it as evil or wrong, it's just that I think it's something special and for it to be reduced to something so casual to me cheapens it somehow. I see my self as either a fun loving bard or a cleric of some good god going around helping the sick and poor. I'm sure I'de love Lady Alustriel like all the others, it would be awkward to talk with her after you've been told about her reputation for being overtly "friendly" with people.:D |
| Charles Phipps01-18-08, 07:13 PM | I don't have anything against Miss Alustriel, she seems like a really cool character to me from what I've read about her. It's just for some reason I don't think I could take her seriously if I walked into her court and discovered her behaving like a prostitute. Maybe what Storm said about being raised and stuff is true who knows, I think even if I was living in Faerun I still think I'de be more conservative when it comes to sex. It's not that I see it as evil or wrong, it's just that I think it's something special and for it to be reduced to something so casual to me cheapens it somehow. I always take a note that Alustriel is frequently scorned out of her presence. However, if you insulted her then it would take all of her measure not to have her entire court hang you. Alustriel's decadence I don't play up as innocently reacted to my most Faerunians but I also note that it's the same kind of behavior that King Azoun indulges in and certain Shou-Lung Emperors. The only difference is that it's a woman indulging herself so tremendously. Alustriel is regal and terrifying. People adore her or obey her but they do not JUDGE her unless they want to lose their heads. I find that the fanatical loyalty that the people of Silverymoon show her is enough to shut up most players. |
| Stigger01-18-08, 07:46 PM | Behaving like a prostitute... right... wonder how long its going to take for people to figure out that morality in the Realms does not equate to morality on this forsaken mudball... |
| Charles Phipps01-18-08, 07:55 PM | Behaving like a prostitute... right... wonder how long its going to take for people to figure out that morality in the Realms does not equate to morality on this forsaken mudball... Eh, everyone playing the Realms was raised here. Asking people to understand an alternate world society takes a certain degree of patience. Just saying "it's different" doesn't mean much. |
| Stigger01-18-08, 07:59 PM | Point, but it's still frustrating nonetheless... and I can't say I feel like writing an exposition as to why and how its different at the moment. |
| Old Sage01-18-08, 08:05 PM | Well if her infertility is not because of Mystra but a physical problem, it will probably be a matter for a mid-high level cleric at the most. She should have no problems paying for the spell, although Storm Silverhand owing you a favor is imo worth a lot more than all the gold you can carry.Storm can conceive only with divine aid [Mystra, Azuth] -- not just godly approval, but active godly help. |
| Kenzuki01-18-08, 08:09 PM | Behaving like a prostitute... right... wonder how long its going to take for people to figure out that morality in the Realms does not equate to morality on this forsaken mudball... So no one in the Realms has a conservative outlook on sex? |
| Charles Phipps01-18-08, 08:22 PM | So no one in the Realms has a conservative outlook on sex? It might exist, but for the most part it's not cultural. You have religions actively promoting promiscuous sex, you have cures for all STDs, and you also have fantasy 100% effective contraception. Combined with gender equality and the fact that people are very very very interested in pleasure in FR, you have a society that's very loose about sex. I liken it to the Hyborean Age. It's not necessarilly BETTER than our society in social mores but it's definitely one where decadence is viewed as far more normal than in our world. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-18-08, 09:09 PM | Behaving like a prostitute... right... wonder how long its going to take for people to figure out that morality in the Realms does not equate to morality on this forsaken mudball... Not to mention the fact that not everyone on Earth would consider Alustriel to be "acting like a prostitute"...or even see prostitution as a bad thing in and of itself. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-18-08, 09:10 PM | So no one in the Realms has a conservative outlook on sex? Some people would. Different people have different opinions. But Faerun doesn't appear to have the same "baggage" regarding sex that real world cultures tend to. |
| Old Sage01-18-08, 09:13 PM | In Ed's Realms, "there’s no stigma attached to homosexual relationships, only to any sexual behaviour that involves exploiting children, and any sexual behaviour that involves force or coercion (please note: WILLINGLY undergoing pain or bondage doesn’t count)." |
| Kenzuki01-18-08, 09:24 PM | I suspect, given everything that you've told me here. That the Realms is the Paradise spoken of by the Hippies of the 60's. :D |
| XHereticX01-18-08, 09:42 PM | I suspect, given everything that you've told me here. That the Realms is the Paradise spoken of by the Hippies of the 60's. :D Complete with Zhents, devils, evil wizards and all:rolleyes: |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 12:53 AM | I suspect, given everything that you've told me here. That the Realms is the Paradise spoken of by the Hippies of the 60's. :D -Ed is how old? |
| Charles Phipps01-19-08, 01:31 AM | -Ed is how old? Ed is a bit like Heinlein in some respects but yes, he's a big Hippie. |
| XHereticX01-19-08, 01:38 AM | Ed is a bit like Heinlein in some respects but yes, he's a big Hippie. A canadian hippie, which takes it to a whole new level...:cool: |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 01:46 AM | A canadian hippie, which takes it to a whole new level...:cool: -Well, he's still alright. We can't blame him for being Canadian! :D |
| MarkusTay6301-19-08, 02:12 AM | Canadian Hippies got it right - At least they have socialized medicine <grumble, grumble> I was going to make a point about Sage's post, but then thought better of it. Lets just say that from some of my FR readings, I get the distinct impression that what a Faerűnian would consider a 'child' and what we legally define as one are two VERY different things. Don't ask for references - it disturbs me enough that I actually could give them. :rolleyes: |
| Charles Phipps01-19-08, 02:17 AM | Again, it's important to remember that Faerun is a lot more modern than we give it credit for. The implications seem to be that adults aren't in the Medieval sense (14 or so) but slightly younger than the modern age but still mostly what we consider it permissable for sex (16) |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 02:40 AM | Canadian Hippies got it right - At least they have socialized medicine <grumble, grumble> -Yeah, and they have these absurd taxation rates (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html). Say you make an even $50,000 a year, a decent wage. The federal government of Canada is taking 22% of that. If you live in, say New Brunswick, the province is taking an additional 25.60%. So, in total, your base income is being leeched almost 50%. While I don't like the U.S. system of medical insurance coverage (it scares me, truthfully, as I will soon be uninsured, being as I won't be covered on my parents' policies, and won't have a 'real' job yet), maintaining private insurance seems cheaper. I was going to make a point about Sage's post, but then thought better of it. Lets just say that from some of my FR readings, I get the distinct impression that what a Faerűnian would consider a 'child' and what we legally define as one are two VERY different things. -I'm sure the definition of who is considered an adult and who is considered a child varies greatly, from place to place, race to race, subculture to subculture. Remember, Jews are considered adults at age 14, and Catholics are considered adults at 15/16, within their own cultures, so it's not that 'far out'. |
| Old Sage01-19-08, 03:01 AM | I was going to make a point about Sage's post, but then thought better of it. Lets just say that from some of my FR readings, I get the distinct impression that what a Faerűnian would consider a 'child' and what we legally define as one are two VERY different things.Note however, that I said "Ed's Realms" -- referring to Ed's home FR campaigns -- and not the published Realms as interpreted by TSR/WotC. |
| Khaelieth01-19-08, 06:29 AM | Socialised medicine is great, means anyone can afford it, anytime. And that 25.6% tax doesn't only pay for medicine, and it's not that much, Norway's got approx 50%, and we've got the highest HDI in the world. Read a case where a 15 year old girl had been with a 20 year old and her parents tried sending him to jail. Was ruled that the age difference wasn't sufficient to warrant it. Also, in some States you can't legally drink until your early twenties, whereas you can legally drink when you're 16 in Spain, I believe. If your old enough to choose who to run the country, you're old enough to have a beer! Just saying adult is a subjective term, I'm Catholic and I'd never call a 16 year old an adult. But as for the Realms, they are sorta lenient. |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 07:19 AM | If your old enough to choose who to run the country, you're old enough to have a beer! -That's pretty much why the voting age was lowered here in the U.S. in the late '60s. If you're old enough to go to war, and be killed for your country, you should be old enough to choose who sends you there. Just saying adult is a subjective term, I'm Catholic and I'd never call a 16 year old an adult. But as for the Realms, they are sorta lenient. -In the eyes of the Church, once a boy/girl is confirmed, which generally happens around the age of 14, 15 or 16, he/she is seen as an adult, can be married in the church, and is basically in charge of his/her own life. Obviously, that is mostly moot now, since the state makes the actual law, and not the Church. -But, what does socialized medicine, or Canon Doctrine have to do with Elminster? :ayyyy!: |
| Kenzuki01-19-08, 08:32 AM | -That's pretty much why the voting age was lowered here in the U.S. in the late '60s. If you're old enough to go to war, and be killed for your country, you should be old enough to choose who sends you there. -In the eyes of the Church, once a boy/girl is confirmed, which generally happens around the age of 14, 15 or 16, he/she is seen as an adult, can be married in the church, and is basically in charge of his/her own life. Obviously, that is mostly moot now, since the state makes the actual law, and not the Church. -But, what does socialized medicine, or Canon Doctrine have to do with Elminster? :ayyyy!: My mother got married at 16 and her mother got married at 14. I'm her sixth child and she had me at 37. Of course that's in the South so.....I truly think women were more mature back then and could handle being married that young. |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 08:42 AM | Of course that's in the South so..... -Say no more. :D :P -But, yes, people of 'yesteryear' do seem more mature than the people of today, in terms of age. My mother had a full-time job, was married, and gave birth to me when she was 22. I'm turning 22 in a few months, and I have a part-time job, don't want to even consider marriage for another decade or so, and don't want children, period. |
| Kenzuki01-19-08, 08:46 AM | Why Lord K, you're the same age as me! |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 08:47 AM | Why Lord K, you're the same age as me! -Yes, yes we are. You are older by a few months, though. You are June, I am October. |
| Kenzuki01-19-08, 10:25 AM | -Yes, yes we are. You are older by a few months, though. You are June, I am October. *gasp* How did you know that......I feel compelled to worship you now. *bows* |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 10:53 AM | *gasp* How did you know that......I feel compelled to worship you now. *bows* -Excellent...:emp: |
| Khaelieth01-19-08, 12:36 PM | -In the eyes of the Church, once a boy/girl is confirmed, which generally happens around the age of 14, 15 or 16, he/she is seen as an adult, can be married in the church, and is basically in charge of his/her own life. Obviously, that is mostly moot now, since the state makes the actual law, and not the Church. -But, what does socialized medicine, or Canon Doctrine have to do with Elminster? :ayyyy!: Yes, they will marry you, but I assure you, the majority of Catholic marriages over here are not between 14-16 year old ;p Hmmm... is medicine socialised in Faerűn!? Btw, I think I got banned for a day after my STD posts. Couldn't log in and they'd deleted my most recent post. Most annoying. And I'm about to create a thread for medicine in Faerűn, just for discussion. |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 12:42 PM | Yes, they will marry you, but I assure you, the majority of Catholic marriages over here are not between 14-16 year old ;p -Hence the part where it's mostly moot. Btw, I think I got banned for a day after my STD posts. Couldn't log in and they'd deleted my most recent post. Most annoying. And I'm about to create a thread for medicine in Faerűn, just for discussion. -No, the boards were just broken yestarday, and the night before. |
| Khaelieth01-19-08, 12:51 PM | Ahh, kk. Just wondered, as my post got removed and that I saw other people posting. |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 01:01 PM | Ahh, kk. Just wondered, as my post got removed and that I saw other people posting. -Yeah, everything was all weird. I thought I got banned. I was so angry. |
| XHereticX01-19-08, 01:57 PM | - -In the eyes of the Church, once a boy/girl is confirmed, which generally happens around the age of 14, 15 or 16, he/she is seen as an adult, can be married in the church, and is basically in charge of his/her own life. Obviously, that is mostly moot now, since the state makes the actual law, and not the Church. !: Still makes it statutory rape:D |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 02:04 PM | Still makes it statutory rape:D -Again, I said that since the laws of the state take precident, it's all a moot point! Read, people, read! :P |
| XHereticX01-19-08, 02:06 PM | -Again, I said that since the laws of the state take precident, it's all a moot point! Read, people, read! :P Karsus, chill, it's a joke;) |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 02:15 PM | Karsus, chill, it's a joke;) -I've been up for like thirtysomething hours. If I chill, I might die! :weep: |
| XHereticX01-19-08, 02:17 PM | -I've been up for like thirtysomething hours. If I chill, I might die! :weep: Well get some sleep then, less than two more days and you'll be dead!!! |
| Lord Karsus01-19-08, 02:32 PM | Well get some sleep then, less than two more days and you'll be dead!!! -The plan is, I get some Indian food a little later, get off the G-d damn computer, shower, relax, go to sleep about 10 or so, wake up nice and rested in the morning, spend the late morning and early afternoon working on my breaking balls, and then tomorrow night watching the Giants game. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-19-08, 05:29 PM | Heya, Well if her infertility is not because of Mystra but a physical problem, it will probably be a matter for a mid-high level cleric at the most. She should have no problems paying for the spell, although Storm Silverhand owing you a favor is imo worth a lot more than all the gold you can carry. If it's a physical inability she was born with, then no - it can't be fixed. (And it is unlikely that is the case, since she grew up to be a pretty normal woman. :)) Since she'd pretty much be immune to disease from her Chosen status, she wouldn't have acquired it through a disease. Physical injuries are healed by the silverfire, so it couldn't have been acquired that way, unless it she was injured before she was Chosen - and I think that's what happened. Now I'm vaguely remembering something Ed mentioned once about some time Storm spent in slavery, and her infertility having something to do with that... So maybe a regeneration spell is in order? (But if that's the case, then wouldn't Storm already have had that taken care of it with the silverfire?) |
| Storm_Silverhand01-19-08, 05:51 PM | Heya, I don't have anything against Miss Alustriel, she seems like a really cool character to me from what I've read about her. It's just for some reason I don't think I could take her seriously if I walked into her court and discovered her behaving like a prostitute. Maybe what Storm said about being raised and stuff is true who knows, I think even if I was living in Faerun I still think I'de be more conservative when it comes to sex. It's not that I see it as evil or wrong, it's just that I think it's something special and for it to be reduced to something so casual to me cheapens it somehow. Prostitute? Is Alustriel charging an entrance fee to her orgies these days? :P That's quite charged language, Kenzuki, and definitely coloured by your perceptions of sex. There are two major problems that we have with sex on Earth. The first is that some religions (particularly three major ones) treat it as dirty, shameful, and sinful - children are conceived in sin, basically. The second is that when we're not treating it as dirty, shameful, and sinful, we're elevating it and putting it onto a pedestal. Sex is a natural process for procreation and pleasure. It's messy, sweaty, and plain good fun. It's not "special", it's every day and ordinary. What makes it special are the emotions you bring into it - sex with a friend is a completely different thing to sex with your beloved, but that's no reason to only want the latter... What can I say? I'd probably make a fine Sharessan. I see my self as either a fun loving bard or a cleric of some good god going around helping the sick and poor. I'm sure I'de love Lady Alustriel like all the others, it would be awkward to talk with her after you've been told about her reputation for being overtly "friendly" with people.:D I'd probably have similar issues of shyness. But if anything, having a close encounter with her would probably solve those right quick. :) @Lord Karsus - my Catholic primary school wanted to confirm me (and everyone else in my year level) at age 11 (grade 6 for Aussies out there, though I suppose it's being called year 6 now), but I couldn't go through with it at the time because I hadn't been baptized. Thank the gods I didn't go get myself baptized so that I could! |
| GreenKnight01-19-08, 06:03 PM | The first is that some religions (particularly three major ones) treat it as dirty, shameful, and sinful - children are conceived in sin, basically. I'm fairly sure it's not considered sinful within the context of marriage. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-19-08, 07:43 PM | Heya, I'm fairly sure it's not considered sinful within the context of marriage. I think you'll find that's not the case. Sex is sinful at all times, even for procreation. The book of Leviticus, for example, calls on a woman to make a sin offering. Why is this do you think? Leviticus 12:6-7 "And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or dove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her." |
| Charles Phipps01-19-08, 07:43 PM | I'm fairly sure it's not considered sinful within the context of marriage. The most famous Church has also always been fairly clear the popular view of original sin as Sex is something that stupid people made up. |
| Charles Phipps01-19-08, 07:45 PM | Leviticus 12:6-7 "And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or dove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her." Why would you think this is remotely tied to sexual sin? There's a crud-load of sexual issues and purification in the Old Testament but very little of it is actually related to sin. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-19-08, 08:00 PM | Heya, Why would you think this is remotely tied to sexual sin? There's a crud-load of sexual issues and purification in the Old Testament but very little of it is actually related to sin. What is the sin that requires the offering, then? Childbirth? The point I made is still valid, even if it only applies to sex outside of marriage. We have all kinds of weird notions about sex, and it is largely due to the teachings of some of the major religions. |
| Khaelieth01-19-08, 08:01 PM | Why would you think this is remotely tied to sexual sin? There's a crud-load of sexual issues and purification in the Old Testament but very little of it is actually related to sin. Seconded! And besides, God did not put us here to be miserable, he put us here to take care of Earth. But generally, in the Realms, they're quite liberal, which is a good thing tbh. And Karsus, it's at 7 days awake before you die, on average. According to my physiology at uni level at least! So you're quite safe! |
| The_Shaman01-19-08, 08:34 PM | Heya, If it's a physical inability she was born with, then no - it can't be fixed. (And it is unlikely that is the case, since she grew up to be a pretty normal woman. :)) Since she'd pretty much be immune to disease from her Chosen status, she wouldn't have acquired it through a disease. Physical injuries are healed by the silverfire, so it couldn't have been acquired that way, unless it she was injured before she was Chosen - and I think that's what happened. Now I'm vaguely remembering something Ed mentioned once about some time Storm spent in slavery, and her infertility having something to do with that... So maybe a regeneration spell is in order? (But if that's the case, then wouldn't Storm already have had that taken care of it with the silverfire?) I often wonder about it myself. Even if cure disease, regeneration, or heal doesn't cure such problems as infertility, Wish or limited Wish should. I mean, for crying out loud, we are talking about Storm Silverhand, one of the most widely loved, respected and, by some, feared mortals in the Realms. The only reason that I think is valid is because, for whatever reason, Mystra does not want it. I would add "or another deity of similar/greater status" but I don't think any deity can challenge Mystra like that, especially when it involves one of her Chosen. It's strange that Mystra would let one of her Chosen - and practically daughters - go through something like that, but I can't think of any other reason that's more understandable. Everything else - physical or psychological - should be taken care by magic Storm would have easy access to. That's why I think that with Mystra gone - or having changed her mind - Storm should have no problem waking up near a cradle fairly soon. On the topic of RL religions and sexuality, I must profess my insignificant knowledge - and urge everyone here to be careful with sweeping generalizations. Sure, it's easy and fun to b...h about the three monotheistic religions being quite stern on sexuality and a lot of other things, and it's not exactly unjustified. Heck, I've seen some stuff in the Old Testament that I'd consider pretty sick. OTOH, an argument about a certain religion, or several ones, affecting our perception on sexuality can only be valid if it is treated differently by the other religions, such as Hindiusm, Buddhism, or any others, and I don't think that differences are that pronounced. That's why I wonder if social or political factors aren't even more important. |
| Kenzuki01-19-08, 08:37 PM | That's not what that verse is talking about. If you go back to the begining of the chapter you will discover why she has to do this. This is Leviticus: 12 1-7 from the Amplified Bible which I like to use for studying purposes. The unclean part is not from a sexual sin it's from the fact that she's spilt blood or lost blood. And the Lord said unto Moses, Say unto the Israelites, If a woman conceives and bears a male child, she shall be unclean seven days, unclean as during her monthly discomfort. And on the eight day the child shall be circumcised. Then she shall remain [seperated] thirty-three days to be purified [from her loss] of blood; she shall touch no hallowed thing nor come into the [court of the] sanctuary until the days of her purifying are over. But if the child she bears is a girl, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her periodic impurity, and she shall remain seperated sixty-six days to be purified [from her loss] of blood. When the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb a year old for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering to the door of the Tent of Meeting to the priest; And he shall offer it beofre the Lord and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who has borne a male or a female child. If you'll read the Bible in other places it actually talks favorably about sex in regardes to marriage. Try reading the Song of Solomon for example :P Paul also talks about it in the context of a marriage. Now I'm Protestant so I can't speak for how Catholics and the Orthodox view this. |
| Charles Phipps01-19-08, 08:44 PM | The point I made is still valid, even if it only applies to sex outside of marriage. We have all kinds of weird notions about sex, and it is largely due to the teachings of some of the major religions. Unfortunately, predominantly atheist societies have many of the same hang-ups. You should try and view the Soviet Union or Khimmler Rouge's views on sex if you want a eyefull. Honestly, the social hangup about sex seems to be something that's pretty much genetic. |
| GreenKnight01-19-08, 09:10 PM | What is the sin that requires the offering, then? Childbirth? There is no sin involved in any of that. That's ritual impurity, because of the blood. Ritual impurity includes things like touching dead bodies. It amounts to getting dirtied up, and having to do something to clean yourself off. Ritual impurity /= sin. Now I'm Protestant so I can't speak for how Catholics and the Orthodox view this. I had to do some checking up, as my Catholic Lore is not as great as my Realms Lore, or especially my 40k Lore (Where I REALLY kick ass. Just ask me about the Horus Heresy. Go ahead!), but pretty much the same thing. |
| ORC_KiRin01-19-08, 09:22 PM | Well, folks, it seems to have been some time since anyone has discussed Elminster in this thread. I've alerted the Community Management team, who while decide if the thread should be closed, moved, or left alone. |
| Charles Phipps01-19-08, 09:23 PM | So, how exactly do you use Elminster in your games? |
| Kenzuki01-19-08, 09:27 PM | So, how exactly do you use Elminster in your games? Personally I'de use him as an old man that you don't know is El and he sends you on a quest or something. Then maybe at the end you figure out who it is. I think that's how he's supposed to be used any way. |
| GreenKnight01-19-08, 09:30 PM | I actually had a crazy idea about Elminster being similar to Dungeon Master in the old D&D cartoon. Think about it. The guy goes about tending to the latest crop of adventureres, making sure they live to see tomorrow. So what better way to do that then to send them up against threats they can handle, and guiding them away from dangers to great for them to deal with? I imagine he flits around Faerun (flits in a manly way), many times in disguise, and looks for promising young adventurers. He then directs them towards tasks which aren't to hard for them. In essence, he's like an actual DM looking for appropriate CR's to pit them against. He carefully cultivates their growth, so they're not cut down before achieving their true potential. That way when Faerun is deep in crap, it won't have to just rely on him or whoever else. There'll be a whole new generation of adventurers ready to pick up the slack when he can't handle things. And he'll know that they're up to the task because he's been personally overseeing their development. |
| Kenzuki01-19-08, 09:37 PM | I actually had a crazy idea about Elminster being similar to Dungeon Master in the old D&D cartoon. Think about it. The guy goes about tending to the latest crop of adventureres, making sure they live to see tomorrow. So what better way to do that then to send them up against threats they can handle, and guiding them away from dangers to great for them to deal with? I imagine he flits around Faerun (flits in a manly way), many times in disguise, and looks for promising young adventurers. He then directs them towards tasks which aren't to hard for them. In essence, he's like an actual DM looking for appropriate CR's to pit them against. He carefully cultivates their growth, so they're not cut down before achieving their true potential. That way when Faerun is deep in crap, it won't have to just rely on him or whoever else. There'll be a whole new generation of adventurers ready to pick up the slack when he can't handle things. And he'll know that they're up to the task because he's been personally overseeing their development. See now THAT is how Elminster should be used right there! |
| XHereticX01-19-08, 10:35 PM | It's funny how the societies/groups that depend upon the masses (Catholic Church, Communist regimes etc) are always the ones that put black labels upon sexual activity. Hypocrites... |
| Charles Phipps01-19-08, 10:53 PM | It's funny how the societies/groups that depend upon the masses (Catholic Church, Communist regimes etc) are always the ones that put black labels upon sexual activity. Hypocrites... Uhhh, all societies everywhere depend on the masses. That's sort of the definition. But moving on... I tend to use Elminster as a guy who literally teleports in, says some random stuff and acts goofy, before teleporting away. I like to leave my players with a WTH sort of reaction whenever he appears. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-19-08, 11:16 PM | Heya, So, how exactly do you use Elminster in your games? I'd use him as a distraction for the players... Hmm that's not quite right. If they want to go see him for advice or help or whatever, they get the run around... They wouldn't ever actually knowingly meet him. If he showed up at all, they wouldn't be aware of it because he'd use an alternate form. The advice or help he'd offer them may or may not be related to the reason they went to see him in the first place. The only time I'd ever have him show up in "person" would be if something really dire was going on. (By the way, thanks for enlightening me about those passages in the bible. I'll try not to shoot my mouth off when my foot is in its vicinity again. ;)) |
| MarkusTay6301-20-08, 01:27 AM | I've never used him in my games, but if I did decide to give him a cameo, it would be for something totally innocuous... like having him sit near the Pcs in 'the Tavern', and then him him flick a booger their way... and as they rush to kill him, he just snaps his fingers and disappears (leaving the PCs to pay for his bar tab). :D |
| Lord Karsus01-20-08, 02:35 AM | Now I'm vaguely remembering something Ed mentioned once about some time Storm spent in slavery, and her infertility having something to do with that... So maybe a regeneration spell is in order? (But if that's the case, then wouldn't Storm already have had that taken care of it with the silverfire?) -If that part about slavery is true, perhaps she doesn't go to a Cleric as a 'badge of honor', or something to that effects. One of the most stereotypical things in fantasy is the protagonist who has some kind of scar, or something to that effect, that he doesn't heal because he wants to remember and dwell on the reason it appeared- the betrayal of a friend, or the emergence of an archenemy, or whatever. Admittedly, I don't know too much about Storm, but perhaps, once upon a time, she gave birth, but lost her daughter to the same slavers that she was captured by, as well as her own ability to reproduce, since that is oftentimes a result of rape (especially when done by the more evil people out there), and refuses to get herself healed as a way to remember her daughter, and what happened to her. A reminder of 'Never Again' of sorts. Eh, why not? @Lord Karsus - my Catholic primary school wanted to confirm me (and everyone else in my year level) at age 11 (grade 6 for Aussies out there, though I suppose it's being called year 6 now), but I couldn't go through with it at the time because I hadn't been baptized. Thank the gods I didn't go get myself baptized so that I could! -Nice, you had a choice...:nonono: Leviticus 12:6-7 "And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or dove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her." -This is what that refers to: Mikvah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikvah) |
| Storm_Silverhand01-20-08, 03:25 AM | Heya, -If that part about slavery is true, perhaps she doesn't go to a Cleric as a 'badge of honor', or something to that effects. One of the most stereotypical things in fantasy is the protagonist who has some kind of scar, or something to that effect, that he doesn't heal because he wants to remember and dwell on the reason it appeared- the betrayal of a friend, or the emergence of an archenemy, or whatever. Admittedly, I don't know too much about Storm, but perhaps, once upon a time, she gave birth, but lost her daughter to the same slavers that she was captured by, as well as her own ability to reproduce, since that is oftentimes a result of rape (especially when done by the more evil people out there), and refuses to get herself healed as a way to remember her daughter, and what happened to her. A reminder of 'Never Again' of sorts. Eh, why not? I don't think Storm is a masochist. Because only a masochist would do that to themselves - she wants a child, not getting her infertility fixed if it could be would be pretty dumb of her. -Nice, you had a choice...:nonono: If there was one law I would want imposed on some religions, it would be that a person is not allowed to be initiated into it until they're old enough to make an informed decision. I'm so grateful to my mother for not getting me baptized/christened when I was a baby, as well as making sure I learned about other religions. (I was also fortunate to go to a Catholic High School that did actually give relatively open minded accounts of most of the world's religions (as open minded as a Catholic school could be, but pretty good nonetheless).) Unfortunately, that's such a pipe dream... not to mention it wouldn't work properly... How can you make an informed decision if your parents insist on only teaching you about their religion? |
| Lord Karsus01-20-08, 03:43 AM | I don't think Storm is a masochist. Because only a masochist would do that to themselves - she wants a child, not getting her infertility fixed if it could be would be pretty dumb of her. -It's not being a masochist, but when things go 'ping' in your mind. I never got the impression that any of the Seven Sisters, with the possible exceptions of Qilue and Alustriel were in a very "good" psychological state to begin with. And, let's not even mention Elminster! :) |
| Mr_Miscellany01-20-08, 04:00 AM | I'm just curious as to what the general consensus among everyone here is, because it seems as if he is well-liked, which starkly contrasts with the opinions that me and most of my friends have about the Sage of Shadowdale... I like him... ...as a beat up old man. ...as a cantankerous prankster. ...as a symbol of the Chosen being harried, harassed and on the defensive. ...as a slightly insane fellow, just starting to fall apart at the seams. ...as a tired symbol of ultimate devotion and love. ...as something sad, but also terribly, terribly powerful. That’s how I’ve run him the last several years in my FR game, at any rate. |
| Charles Phipps01-20-08, 05:59 AM | Unfortunately, that's such a pipe dream... not to mention it wouldn't work properly... How can you make an informed decision if your parents insist on only teaching you about their religion? I believe in patient-child trust. Fundamentally, I do think that you shouldn't bother trying to share everyone's crack pot belief structure with a child. It boils down to the fact that I don't want my child exposed to Tom Cruiseism not only until they're adults but at any point in their lives if they can avoid it. While I'm a Catholic now, I was born Presbyterianism and I am grateful they initiated me into the faith as a child or I wouldn't have much of the values and beliefs about the world that I have now. Frankly, I don't think I'd believe as strongly without that childhood initiation because I'd be too cynical as an adult to believe. But, honestly, I think we should stick to the Seven Sisters and Elminster. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-20-08, 06:10 AM | Heya, While I'm a Catholic now, I was born Presbyterianism and I am grateful they initiated me into the faith as a child or I wouldn't have much of the values and beliefs about the world that I have now. Frankly, I don't think I'd believe as strongly without that childhood initiation because I'd be too cynical as an adult to believe. I thought better of this, ignore me. But, honestly, I think we should stick to the Seven Sisters and Elminster. Maybe we should. (Oh, and by the way... I agree with you completely on "Tom Cruiseism"! ;)) |
| Kenzuki01-20-08, 07:02 AM | With Mystra dead and Azuth missing in action she's up the creek without a paddle so to speak. Though I guess ol' Lathander might could help her out now that Mystra doesn't have sway over her. |
| Lord Karsus01-20-08, 07:23 AM | -I wonder what Elminster's role is going to be in this brave new world? We know he's going to be around, in some fashion, so... -Crazy hermit, anyone? |
| Khaelieth01-20-08, 07:35 AM | Well, the position of Mad Mage of Undermountain just opened up |
| Lord Karsus01-20-08, 07:47 AM | Well, the position of Mad Mage of Undermountain just opened up -Good point. If Undermountain still exists in the new Realms, Elminster would make a good Mad Mage. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-20-08, 06:58 PM | I would use Elminster as he is portrayed in Ed's novels.:D |
| GreenKnight01-20-08, 07:08 PM | I would use Elminster as he is portrayed in Ed's novels.:D That reminds me. I've had The Anotated Elminster sitting around here, and I haven't gotten back to reading it. I read his commentary about Making of a Mage (16 days!:eek: ), the Realmslore section that followed it, put it down, then never picked it up again. I gotta get back to that. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-20-08, 07:10 PM | That reminds me. I've had The Anotated Elminster sitting around here, and I haven't gotten back to reading it. I read his commentary about Making of a Mage (16 days!:eek: ), the Realmslore section that followed it, put it down, then never picked it up again. I gotta get back to that. Me too, actually--been juggling so many things nowadays. |
| Warning01-20-08, 08:38 PM | I heard a rumor tha Elminster tapped Mystra? If this is true, I have no other choice but to label him as a FR pimp. (This will get me baned :D ) |
| The_Shaman01-20-08, 09:01 PM | Well, you wouldn't be the first to voice a similar opinion, even though I'm not quite sure what you mean by "tapped"? If you meant "slept with," he did have an affair with a sorceress that turned out to be an avatar of Mystra, and he's not been especially celibate since. Of course, his resume has been rather inflated by the fact that he's lived for over a millenium and hasn't suffered from all that much physical aging. Although, tbh, I think he's recently calmed down more than a bit. I'd guess he is smart enough to avoid angering his current S.O., and for good reason - she's not renowned as particularly calm and pacifistic, and she's got enough power to level half a country without breaking a sweat. |
| GreenKnight01-20-08, 09:04 PM | I really hope the Simbul survives the 4E transition, as I'd love to see her statted out as a 4E Sorcerer. The Sorcerer class as described in Races & Classes just seems so appropriate for her. |
| Lord Karsus01-21-08, 03:02 AM | -Isn't 'tapped' a M:tG term? |
| Storm_Silverhand01-21-08, 06:18 AM | Heya, -Isn't 'tapped' a M:tG term? Yes. But it is also a euphemism for having sex with a person, and I doubt the two terms are related (they developed in parallel rather than one inspiring the other). "I'd tap that" for example, usually said by a male about an attractive woman - though it wouldn't surprise me to find the term used in reverse too. :) |
| Charles Phipps01-21-08, 06:40 AM | I think it's been established Elminster's slept with half the available female population of Faerun. And you should always check any girls you're with to see if they're El in disguise. One of my characters found that out the hard way that El is a very odd bird. |
| Khaelieth01-21-08, 07:29 AM | Well, Elminster personifies the Realms IMO. Ph43r teh p1p3 |
| Kenzuki01-21-08, 08:56 AM | I think it's been established Elminster's slept with half the available female population of Faerun. And you should always check any girls you're with to see if they're El in disguise. One of my characters found that out the hard way that El is a very odd bird. Well he WAS a woman once upon a time. But dear god that had to be a funny moment when he found out he was with Elminster lol. |
| Flicker01-21-08, 09:38 AM | Well he WAS a woman once upon a time. But dear god that had to be a funny moment when he found out he was with Elminster lol. You'd think when they rolled over post coital and he/she lit up the pipe it might have given it away? |
| Kenzuki01-21-08, 09:49 AM | You'd think when they rolled over post coital and he/she lit up the pipe it might have given it away? Well if his female form looked good enough he might not have cared. That is unless El reverted back to his old man form in bed....talk about nightmares waking up to a hairy old man smoking a pipe. |
| Flicker01-21-08, 10:10 AM | Well if his female form looked good enough he might not have cared. That is unless El reverted back to his old man form in bed....talk about nightmares waking up to a hairy old man smoking a pipe. Yeh Deidre Kendrick knows all about that lol! I think the worst thing would be that 'knowing smile' that El often has :D |
| Lord Karsus01-21-08, 10:15 AM | Yes. But it is also a euphemism for having sex with a person, and I doubt the two terms are related (they developed in parallel rather than one inspiring the other). "I'd tap that" for example, usually said by a male about an attractive woman - though it wouldn't surprise me to find the term used in reverse too. :) -Yes, I know that. I was wondering if 'tapped' was a M:tG term, though. ;) |
| The_Shaman01-21-08, 01:43 PM | Well if his female form looked good enough he might not have cared. I know he was in female form in Making of a Mage, has it happened since then? MoaM implied he looked fairly average as a woman, had a comparable figure, and kept the trademark hooked nose. Dunno if he's particularly hairy, though. Does someone volunteer to ask the Simbul? @Storm: You're right! I remember having seen the "I'd tap that" phrase somewhere on the internetz. Thanks, have one :cookie: |
| Storm_Silverhand01-21-08, 04:42 PM | Heya, I know he was in female form in Making of a Mage, has it happened since then? MoaM implied he looked fairly average as a woman, had a comparable figure, and kept the trademark hooked nose. Dunno if he's particularly hairy, though. Does someone volunteer to ask the Simbul? He wore female form in One Comes Unheralded to Zirta (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/zirta.htm)... And I'm pretty sure it wasn't the only time he's done that... Being a spellcaster, I would imagine El can look like whatever he wanted to - beautiful or not. Elmara was different because it was Mystra who spellshaped him - and obviously chose to go with the "same but opposite sex" theme. @Storm: You're right! I remember having seen the "I'd tap that" phrase somewhere on the internetz. Thanks, have one :cookie: Mmmm cookie! :) Thanks! *MUNCH* |
| Khaelieth01-21-08, 06:24 PM | Now, does anyone know if The Simbul and Elminster had one of them shapechange to goats before? |
| Warning01-21-08, 07:57 PM | I think it's been established Elminster's slept with half the available female population of Faerun. Ah he has AIDS. You see he's just a man...not a god. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-22-08, 01:47 AM | Heya, Ah he has AIDS. You see he's just a man...not a god. But he is immune to disease, I do believe... And if not, well the silverfire can probably cure it... and if not even that, then he knows enough clerics to get it cured. |
| Warning01-22-08, 01:56 AM | Heya, But he is immune to disease, I do believe... And if not, well the silverfire can probably cure it... and if not even that, then he knows enough clerics to get it cured. Your cool to post with. You are one of few that handles my "crude jokes" better than others. So um, thanks, I'll remember it for furture refrenece. |
| Lord Karsus01-22-08, 05:00 AM | Ah he has AIDS. You see he's just a man...not a god. -AIDS probably doesn't exist in Faerűn, anyway. It's kinda specific to here, due to the, um, circumstances that spawned it. |
| Khaelieth01-22-08, 07:29 AM | Yuergh. Yeah. But they've got leprosy! Dinar for an ex-leper? Mental note: NEVER give a humoristic PC leprosy who has got the means to cure it. |
| XHereticX01-22-08, 08:07 PM | -AIDS probably doesn't exist in Faerűn, anyway. It's kinda specific to here, due to the, um, circumstances that spawned it. Bah, who needs AIDS when you got the "Spellplague.":D |
| Lord Karsus01-22-08, 08:22 PM | Bah, who needs AIDS when you got the "Spellplague.":D -Which is worse? You can't bottle, AIDS, I don't think. -Add the Legacy Virus in there for a three way battle. |
| XHereticX01-22-08, 08:28 PM | -Which is worse? You can't bottle, AIDS, I don't think. . AIDS in a bottle? "shudders at the possibilities..." |
| Khaelieth01-22-08, 08:29 PM | Yes, we can. Just isolate the virus (done easily enough), add white blood cells and Bob's your uncle. |
| GreenKnight01-22-08, 09:42 PM | Question about something mentioned on this thread a while back: So Elminster can't have children without Mystra's permission? Is this true? And if so, where is this stated (If someone could point me to any and all books where it's stated, as well as a page number, I'd be much obliged)? And with Mystra dead, does that mean that Elminster will suddenly start producing children at an alarming clip? |
| Storm_Silverhand01-22-08, 09:50 PM | Heya, Question about something mentioned on this thread a while back: So Elminster can't have children without Mystra's permission? Is this true? And if so, where is this stated (If someone could point me to any and all books where it's stated, as well as a page number, I'd be much obliged)? And with Mystra dead, does that mean that Elminster will suddenly start producing children at an alarming clip? I can't give you exact references (I'm too lazy to go look them up), but it's something that Ed himself has mentioned several times in the past (searching his answers on Candlekeep would probably yield some more information). Maybe it is somewhere in the Seven Sisters book? At any rate, El would have kids at the rate any old man would have them without Mystra in the picture. Consider how old he is, consider that he'd be without the silverfire... he'd have to find some other way to maintain his life, unless somehow the residual effects of the silverfire keeps him immortal. I think having kids would the the least of his worries... and being old and wise, one would imagine that without Mystra, Elminster himself would control his own fertility (by more conventional methods, or perhaps by a spell similar to Block the Seed from BoEF). |
| Kenzuki01-22-08, 10:01 PM | Considering how old he is, would he even still be able to....you know. |
| Old Sage01-22-08, 10:02 PM | From Ed [June 6th '06]:- "Over his thousand-some years of lusty living, he’s sired quite a few offspring, though not nearly as many as he would have done if Mystra hadn’t been applying her silent “you’re one of my Chosen, and I don’t want you to father anyone just now, so here’s my birth control” powers so often." And:- "Let me just note that MYSTRA decides when or if any of her Chosen will “cause” children, and if any such offspring will have any aptitude for magic or become Chosen." |
| Charles Phipps01-22-08, 11:09 PM | Considering how old he is, would he even still be able to....you know. When 900 years YOU REACH, look as good...you will not. |
| GreenKnight01-22-08, 11:20 PM | From Ed [June 6th '06]:- "Over his thousand-some years of lusty living, he’s sired quite a few offspring, though not nearly as many as he would have done if Mystra hadn’t been applying her silent “you’re one of my Chosen, and I don’t want you to father anyone just now, so here’s my birth control” powers so often." And:- "Let me just note that MYSTRA decides when or if any of her Chosen will “cause” children, and if any such offspring will have any aptitude for magic or become Chosen." Cool. Thanks a bunch! :) Sooo... the game is afoot, then. :plotting: |
| MarkusTay6301-22-08, 11:47 PM | The absolute BEST source for this particular piece of lore - aside from Ed himself - is the novel Elminster's Daughter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/887750000), because pretty much the entire book deals with this EXACT issue. ;) |
| Storm_Silverhand01-23-08, 01:27 AM | Heya, The absolute BEST source for this particular piece of lore - aside from Ed himself - is the novel Elminster's Daughter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/887750000), because pretty much the entire book deals with this EXACT issue. ;) Uhh... Only as an aside to Ed's usual romp style novel. The fact that Narnra is El's daughter is really rather incidental to the rest of the novel. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-23-08, 09:49 AM | Heya, Uhh... Only as an aside to Ed's usual romp style novel. The fact that Narnra is El's daughter is really rather incidental to the rest of the novel. I agree, although I loved the novel. It's great if you love stories set in Cormyr.:) |
| Kenzuki01-23-08, 11:46 AM | Greenwood's novels are a choir to read sometimes. Sometimes they just seem to drag along or something I don't know. I mean when you spend like half the page describing a woman's dress and cleavage well....gets kinda boring. |
| Stigger01-23-08, 04:33 PM | I rather like his writing personally... though I don't recall ever seeing any half-page descriptions of dresses and cleavage in there... |
| Storm_Silverhand01-23-08, 04:38 PM | Heya, I agree, although I loved the novel. It's great if you love stories set in Cormyr.:) I did like it, but there were points I got rather annoyed at. (Some times Ed pays too much attention to side characters, IMHO.) |
| XHereticX01-25-08, 09:40 PM | Greenwood's novels are a choir to read sometimes. Sometimes they just seem to drag along or something I don't know. I mean when you spend like half the page describing a woman's dress and cleavage well....gets kinda boring. Those are the interesting parts of his novels:D Ed's old stuff was good, but lately his novels have been overtly centered on bad humor combined with poorly placed "local slang." Though "Waterdeep: City of Splendors" was excellent (probably Elaine helped on that one). |
| MarkusTay6301-26-08, 10:24 AM | Just finnished that book, and although I enjoyed it, the plot was a bit 'all over the place'. I had to thumb back through the book at least once to figure out who was responsible for what (too many young nobles). Not saying it is a bad thing - I love Ed and Elaine - but sometimes things can get a little confusing in their novels. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 10:32 AM | Just finnished that book, and although I enjoyed it, the plot was a bit 'all over the place'. I had to thumb back through the book at least once to figure out who was responsible for what (too many young nobles). -Well, Waterdeep is a big place after all. :cool: -I never read that book yet (my sister got it for me as a birthday present in hardcover, and I hate reading hardcover books, so it's just been sitting there...) |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 10:38 AM | -Well, Waterdeep is a big place after all. :cool: .) Heresy, cause "It's a small world after all, it's a small world after all." :P |
| MarkusTay6301-26-08, 10:48 AM | It was a good romp, and almost makes me want to run an adventure in WD... almost. Lots of good plothooks in the book to generate adventures from. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 10:52 AM | It was a good romp, and almost makes me want to run an adventure in WD... almost. Lots of good plothooks in the book to generate adventures from. Though I never quite understood the focus of worship for the Amalgamation. |
| MarkusTay6301-26-08, 01:13 PM | Yeah... that noble wanting to associate with them didn't really sit well with me... not at all... and, without giving away the ending, that marriage at the end there seemed a bit far-fetched. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 06:15 PM | Heresy, cause "It's a small world after all, it's a small world after all." :P -Note, our world is a small world. Faerűn itself is about twice the size of North America, so it is likely that Abeir-Toril is larger than Earth. Thus, their world is at least a medium world after all. What size does Burger King use? Or Starbucks? It's a king sized world after all? It's a tall sized world? |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 06:43 PM | - What size does Burger King use? Or Starbucks? It's a king sized world after all? It's a tall sized world? Hmm, so to you, America is the world?:rolleyes: Now that's phat! |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 06:49 PM | -Double Post- |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 06:50 PM | Hmm, so to you, America is the world?:rolleyes: -When did I say that? I specifically stated, "Faerűn itself is about twice the size of North America, so it is likely that Abeir-Toril is larger than Earth." Ratios and all. -But, being as I am in the U.S., and don't have the large amounts of money needed to go visit other countries asides for a road trip to Canada, it is the world, all things being in perspective. But, that's neither here nor there. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 06:52 PM | -When did I say that? I specifically stated, "Faerűn itself is about twice the size of North America, so it is likely that Abeir-Toril is larger than Earth." Ratios and all. -But, being as I am in the U.S., and don't have the large amounts of money needed to go visit other countries asides for a road trip to Canada, it is the world, all things being in perspective. But, that's neither here nor there. Did I ever try to argue your first point about size proportion?;) I totally agree. Ahh, the wonders of the Objectivist mind. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 06:57 PM | Did I ever try to argue your first point about size proportion?;) I totally agree. -You want to be Fireballed? :mage: Ahh, the wonders of the Objectivist mind. -I like Ayn Rand and philosophical Objectivism. msatran does not. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 06:59 PM | -You want to be Fireballed? :mage: -I like Ayn Rand and philosophical Objectivism. msatran does not. Hedonism and Utilitarianism for life, objectivism for those who don't have one. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 07:08 PM | Hedonism and Utilitarianism for life, objectivism for those who don't have one. -I like Utilitarianism as well. That's probably my favorite ethical philosophy. -Hedonism...Well, I'm just not cut out for that. Oh well... |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:13 PM | -I like Utilitarianism as well. That's probably my favorite ethical philosophy. .. I am share your sentiments, though I tend to lean towards something like Kantism that provides a balance between rationalism and empiricism when it comes to my Metaphysics and Epistomology. Kant's moral philosophy is messed up though. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 07:18 PM | -I never liked Kant's view on ethics, although it does make sense. Doing something because it's you are supposed to does seem less morally righteous than doing something because you know it's the right thing to do. Mill's Utilitarianism just strikes a chord with me, though. I actually had this discussion with a friend of mine, as he is anti-Darth Caedus, while I am pro-Darth Caedus. If I knew that sacrificing my family would ensure the safety and/or happiness of everyone else on the planet, I'd do it. That got him a little upset, but hey, that's how I feel. -I bet Kant would like Elminster. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:20 PM | The thing is, I believe morals are relevent, but that we all have a sense of what is right or wrong and we should follow it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-26-08, 07:25 PM | -If I knew that sacrificing my family would ensure the safety and/or happiness of everyone else on the planet, I'd do it. I wouldn't, because the idea of everyone being safe and happy all the time actually unsettles me (I include myself in there, too). |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:27 PM | I wouldn't, because the idea of everyone being safe and happy all the time actually unsettles me (I include myself in there, too). "Joseph Smith was called a prophet dum, dum, dum, dum, dum..." |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 07:28 PM | -That leads to the question of what exactly is considered 'good', 'bad', and so on. As an objectivist, I'd like to think that, regardless of cultural influences, there is a clear, true definition of what is 'right', and what is 'wrong', but in many cases, it isn't as clear cut as that. -Hmm...To keep this vaguely on-topic, what kinds of philosophies would Elminster adhere to? Khelben is a clear-cut adherent to Utilitarianism, in my mind. I wouldn't, because the idea of everyone being safe and happy all the time actually unsettles me (I include myself in there, too). -Why wouldn't you want to always be happy/safe. It's the utopian ideal, after all. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:31 PM | - -Hmm...To keep this vaguely on-topic, what kinds of philosophies would Elminster adhere to? Khelben is a clear-cut adherent to Utilitarianism, in my mind. I'd say Elminster would be a Moral Kantist. He obviously believes in a greater good and works to align himself and others with it. Yet he IS chaotic, so I say there is objectivism in that he wishes people to carve their own paths using common sense and logic. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-26-08, 07:37 PM | -Why wouldn't you want to always be happy/safe. It's the utopian ideal, after all. I strive to be happy and safe. But being happy and safe all the time seems pretty much inhuman to me. I appreciate the lack of happiness as a part of the human condition. The unhappy and unsafe times in my life have shaped who I am (and I'm overall pretty satisfied with who I am). So, I don't feel I owe anyone--not myself, and not even the entire world--eternal safety and happiness (a concept that I'm not even truly in favor of) at the cost of the lives of my family, or any other person. There you have it, some impromptu philosophical musings of RF.:) |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:38 PM | I strive to be happy and safe. But being happy and safe all the time seems pretty much inhuman to me. I appreciate the lack of happiness as a part of the human condition. The unhappy and unsafe times in my life have shaped who I am (and I'm overall pretty satisfied with who I am). So, I don't feel I owe anyone--not myself, and not even the entire world--eternal safety and happiness (a concept that I'm not even truly in favor of) at the cost of the lives of my family, or any other person. There you have it, some impromptu philosophical musings of RF.:) Without the darkness, how do we know the stars shine?;) Ahh, the life lessons I learned from Dragonlance. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 07:42 PM | There you have it, some impromptu philosophical musings of RF.:) -Rino Fathomlinism. :) -Don't mistake eternal happiness/safety for the elimination of conflict, however. In a world where we don't have to ever worry for our safety, conflict can still exist. Buying something is a conflict of sorts, in a way. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-26-08, 07:44 PM | -Rino Fathomlinism. :) :rofl: I guess that's accurate, since my philosophy could be described as a mix of things. |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:44 PM | - -. Buying something is a conflict of sorts, in a way. In my context (and certainly in your consitering your Jewish background), that most certainly is true. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-26-08, 07:48 PM | -Don't mistake eternal happiness/safety for the elimination of conflict, however. In a world where we don't have to ever worry for our safety, conflict can still exist. Buying something is a conflict of sorts, in a way. But buying stuff is fun.:P Seriously though, I think my answer would always be no.:) |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 07:48 PM | -All this talk of philosophy makes me want more philosophical examinations of the Realms. Maybe I'll start a thread on that, so we'll all be on topic. :) |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 07:49 PM | -All this talk of philosophy makes me want more philosophical examinations of the Realms. Maybe I'll start a thread on that, so we'll all be on topic. :) Not right now, I'm tired from arguing with you (I have no idea how long you could go on) and feel like doing something else. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 07:54 PM | Not right now, I'm tired from arguing with you (I have no idea how long you could go on) and feel like doing something else. -We're not arguing, though. We're discussing amongst ourselves. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-26-08, 08:04 PM | Indeed, we are all just stating our opinions.:) |
| XHereticX01-26-08, 08:07 PM | Indeed, we are all just stating our opinions.:) Rather heatedly, but that is the way it should be. |
| Lord Karsus01-26-08, 08:16 PM | Rather heatedly, but that is the way it should be. -I didn't get that impression, actually. This is very much akin to a debate while enjoying a cold beer, in my opinion. |
| Warning01-26-08, 08:56 PM | I bet when Elminster finally dies, it's gonna be dramatic, not realistic, like...he takes down some God or saves the world sacrficing himself. Same with Cale,Drizzt and any other heros. It should be like Marvel civil war...realistic fantasy...Captain america fighting iron man...how did he die? Sniper? That's like Elminster fighiting some God and then someone with wand sneaks up and blast him. That would be great story lining. But hence, FR is unrealistic fantasy. Too bad none of you read George RR Martin or Raymond E feist. So realistic, that they try to explain magic (how it works chemically). And even terry brooks, his started in our time with America and such other countries far in the furture and then with technology limitless, they destroyed most of the world causing chemical evolution changes in humans making: Dwarfes,gnomes and more (living in caves and such). The only thing I like about FR that it has credit over other fantasy worlds is that they have many authors working in that world with their own epic story...yet they never interact...yet another flaw. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-27-08, 05:08 PM | -I didn't get that impression, actually. This is very much akin to a debate while enjoying a cold beer, in my opinion. Agreed.:) |
| Khaelieth01-28-08, 07:29 AM | I bet when Elminster finally dies, it's gonna be dramatic, not realistic, like...he takes down some God or saves the world sacrficing himself. Same with Cale,Drizzt and any other heros. It should be like Marvel civil war...realistic fantasy...Captain america fighting iron man...how did he die? Sniper? That's like Elminster fighiting some God and then someone with wand sneaks up and blast him. That would be great story lining. But hence, FR is unrealistic fantasy. Too bad none of you read George RR Martin or Raymond E feist. So realistic, that they try to explain magic (how it works chemically). And even terry brooks, his started in our time with America and such other countries far in the furture and then with technology limitless, they destroyed most of the world causing chemical evolution changes in humans making: Dwarfes,gnomes and more (living in caves and such). The only thing I like about FR that it has credit over other fantasy worlds is that they have many authors working in that world with their own epic story...yet they never interact...yet another flaw. - First, super heroes aren't realistic, neither is the Realms. Are epics like the Illiad realistic? - Elminster is the Gandalf of the Realms, a goblin with a pointy stick isn't gonna get the better of him. - You cannot explain magic in any science-related way. - Drizzt's not gonna die anyway - I've read Raymond E. Feist and Terry Brooks. Feist was alright. |
| XHereticX01-28-08, 09:26 AM | Agreed.:) Spur of the moment thing, I was getting annoyed for some reason.;) |
| Lord Karsus01-28-08, 09:41 AM | - You cannot explain magic in any science-related way. -Eh, it depends. You might, depending on the setting, who is doing the explaining, etc... Spur of the moment thing, I was getting annoyed for some reason.;) -Hey, keep your hormones in check, there. :P |
| Khaelieth01-28-08, 12:44 PM | -Eh, it depends. You might, depending on the setting, who is doing the explaining, etc... With real science. |
| Lord Karsus01-28-08, 01:48 PM | With real science. -Meh, even still. A physicist could explain, you know, the hows and whys of electricity arcing from your finger into another object. A chemist could explain why XYZ substance explodes when exposed to ZYX substance. -Given enough knowledge, certain aspects of magic can be rectified with actual scientific knowledge. |
| XHereticX01-28-08, 04:09 PM | In reality, magic is just science that isn't yet understood in scientific terms;) |
| MarkusTay6301-29-08, 12:48 PM | The magic system used in D&D (up until 4th edition) is based on that used in the novels of Jack Vance - SCIENCE- fiction novels, not fantasy. ;) There have been any number of books I have read that mixed both, from the rather excellent Well World series - in which all of reality is composed of Primal Energy, and by manipulating that energy, you can change everything around you (just like magic) - to the critically acclaimed Empire of the East, which was the only book I've ever read three times (truly excellent take on a 'fantasy future'). I can think of dozens of others works, such as Frank Herbert's Dune, wherein some of the technology is SO advanced it seems like magic, to the Book of the New Sun, which you would swear is a fantasy world of magic, yet it is set in the far future where people don't even understand the technology they use anymore. And lets not forge the Aboriginies on Earth, who worshipped WWI bi-planes as gods. ;) Magic IS real - it is just something most folks don't understand. Scientists claim that with enough knowledge, ANYTHING is possible, and since thats the definiton of magic, doesn't that make magic and science the SAME thing? :D |
| ajnelis101-29-08, 05:48 PM | im new to the realms i just read the books and use the campaign setting and assorted supplements learn more about the universe i read about. i got sick of reading books and finishing them and wanting more this stuff goes on forever, so i dont game or know any gamers but i know alot about the realms. any way i was wondering if anyone can help me out with a problem. i might have found a plot conflict that has burst the reality bubble. in the 3rd elminster book he is stuck to the roof of a cave and has been comatose from a trap for over a century, it is the middle to the end of the 7th century dr and he has no idea about the fall of myth drannor because he slept through it. in other books i think it was that baker trilogy it was mentioned that elminster wasnt around to help during the fall. in the history section of the campaign setting it says elminster attended a meeting that was all the surviving heroes of the weeping war of the previous decade to re found the harpers, this was 720, he should have been asleep. i noticed this looking stuff up and havent been able to finish the next book since i noticed it last week. is there an explanation for this in another book, like one that has that meeting in it maybe they brought him back in time or something in another plot, i dont know, but i lost my appetite for a minute. well post me some thoughts. sorry about the length i dont know your customs on these things it my first post i m more of a rcluse than most gamers i dont use the inernet for years at a time or know how to play rpgs(except with a paddle) i just work construction read fantasy books and sleep. well thanks |
| NightBreeze01-30-08, 07:46 AM | Read nothing. To the OP: I like him. He is fun, and uncomplicated. And most of all, he doesn't boast about his power, as almost any high level character seems to do. |
| RanielK01-30-08, 10:09 AM | I disagree, because Elminster isn't Ed Greenwood.:) Lies, all lies! You've bought into the obsfucation and misdirection like everyone else. Ed Greenwood is just a front for US Tax purposes to allow El to settle down somewhere and make some serious dough off of his memoirs. The fact we foolish Earthlings use those memoirs to play a game only means El can make even more. And on a serious, less creepy not, I've enjoyed Ed's creations. Both the Realms and Elminster the Sage. |
| Lord Karsus01-30-08, 11:55 AM | Lies, all lies! You've bought into the obsfucation and misdirection like everyone else. Ed Greenwood is just a front for US Tax purposes to allow El to settle down somewhere and make some serious dough off of his memoirs. The fact we foolish Earthlings use those memoirs to play a game only means El can make even more. -You raise an intriguing point. |
| RanielK01-30-08, 12:44 PM | -Good point. If Undermountain still exists in the new Realms, Elminster would make a good Mad Mage. Didn't they drop Waterdeep on it? Which is to say didn't the "minor disruptions" in Waterdeep should have/did cause the collapse of the Undermountain tunnel complex? |
| Lord Karsus01-30-08, 12:56 PM | Didn't they drop Waterdeep on it? Which is to say didn't the "minor disruptions" in Waterdeep should have/did cause the collapse of the Undermountain tunnel complex? -Nothing has been specifically written saying that Undermountain doesn't exist in the "new" Realms, so we should assume that it does. |
| MarkusTay6301-30-08, 01:10 PM | Actually, according to Rich's recent Year of the Ageless One article, it appears otherwise - Waterdeep looks pretty much the same (which is weird). I certainly DO NOT want El to become the new Halaster! |
| RanielK01-30-08, 01:59 PM | -You raise an intriguing point. It's how I'd do it. Not to mention the prevalence of the gold piece making initial finance a breeze. Melt a few down and sell them as pure gold and you've got a decent bit of wealth right there. Same for silver and copper. Not too much as you don't want to a) bring attention to yourself or b) destabilize any economies in doing so. You'd just need enough to get by until your memoirs start selling. Then, hey! presto! you settled as a real person. And no better period to start in than the 70's to 80's. Mass media to make the sale of your stuff more lucrative, while there is no pesky world wide web to dig up little inconsistencies in your false background. |
| RanielK01-30-08, 02:02 PM | Actually, according to Rich's recent Year of the Ageless One article, it appears otherwise - Waterdeep looks pretty much the same (which is weird). I certainly DO NOT want El to become the new Halaster! Yeah, pretty much all that happened was the rearrangement of some statuary (but oh what statues!). It must have been the whisper of some innuendo about a rumor regarding the destruction of Skullport and Undermountain. |
| Lord Karsus01-30-08, 02:31 PM | I certainly DO NOT want El to become the new Halaster! -In my mind, there is a lot of evidence to point that this would be an excellent role for him. Designers/Newish players don't like him much, so locking him away in Undermountain would be something I could see them doing. It would be in character for Elminster to attempt to protect everyone by making sure nothing in Undermountain "escapes". Elminster is crazy as it is, so having Mystra die and magic change might be enough to put him over the edge. Elminster probably has a respect for Hallaster, so doing research at Undermountain, trying to do what he can to bring him back would make sense. It's how I'd do it. Not to mention the prevalence of the gold piece making initial finance a breeze. Melt a few down and sell them as pure gold and you've got a decent bit of wealth right there. Same for silver and copper. Not too much as you don't want to a) bring attention to yourself or b) destabilize any economies in doing so. You'd just need enough to get by until your memoirs start selling. Then, hey! presto! you settled as a real person. And no better period to start in than the 70's to 80's. Mass media to make the sale of your stuff more lucrative, while there is no pesky world wide web to dig up little inconsistencies in your false background. -Now we know...And, now they know we know...:shifty: |
| Warning01-31-08, 07:57 PM | With real science. Even if they can't explain it with real science. It's still better than FR novels, saying that the reason for it, is just because it is. At least other authors try and put forth effort: AO IS SUPREME JUST BECAUSE. You justify FR out of pride, therefore you will never excell any theories by your blinded pride. |
| Lord Karsus01-31-08, 08:03 PM | AO IS SUPREME JUST BECAUSE. -It is in the definition of Ao to be supreme. It's not that difficult. |
| Lord Karsus01-31-08, 08:19 PM | He was afraid of Mystra? -No. He feared a women? Hahaha...supreame I think not. -There are plenty of women who could kick my ass, your ass, and most (if not all) of the collective community's ass. Joanie Laurer immediatley comes to mind. |
| MarkusTay6301-31-08, 08:20 PM | Behind every good man, there is a haranging Harpy? :P |
| Lord Karsus01-31-08, 09:38 PM | Rofl, I need to take you under my wing son. You're from New York you say...doubt it.What's with the womens right attitude. -While it's neither here nor there, you do realize that New York is among one of the most liberal states in the country, correct? Not that I fall into that political categorization, but... Bring me Joanie Laurer, I'll give her my adress. Hell, if shes within a 2 hour drive, we can have the Throwdown. -Do you know who Joanie Laurer is? And by the way, you told me that Mystra gave some of her power to her followers cuz AO got afraid. -No, it a theory- one that I don't support, that says that Ao mandated Mystra to vest some of her power into Chosen, because she was growing too powerful, and was approaching overdeity status. |
| Warning01-31-08, 09:46 PM | -Do you know who Joanie Laurer is? Do you know who I am? |
| Lord Karsus01-31-08, 09:52 PM | Do you know who I am? -You are who you are. -But, do you know who she is? |
| Warning01-31-08, 10:46 PM | -You are who you are. Very deadly and sexy. Both equal conterparts might I add also of these uniqe skills. -But, do you know who she is? But, does she know who I am? |
| Lord Karsus01-31-08, 10:56 PM | -I am going to have to come to the conclusion, that since you keep on doging the question, you do not. -Here you go: Joanie Laurer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwcIau9NxvI&feature=related). Comical in it's own right. |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 09:06 AM | One day after a thousand years Elminster will come walking out of Undermountain after all of his hard research on magic deities screaming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H3dFh6GA-A |
| Lord Karsus02-01-08, 01:43 PM | One day after a thousand years Elminster will come walking out of Undermountain after all of his hard research on magic deities screaming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H3dFh6GA-A -Perhaps. Elminster did disappear in DR 1374, so when he returns, whenever that is, I'm sure there'd be some jubilation and celebration in Shadowdale. |
| MarkusTay6302-01-08, 08:07 PM | No... They'll say "Who the f__k is that old man?" :P |
| XHereticX02-01-08, 08:09 PM | No... They'll say "Who the f__k is that old man?" :P Or if the situation is dire:"FOOD." Fairly Oddparents FTW;) |
| Lord Karsus02-02-08, 02:36 AM | No... They'll say "Who the f__k is that old man?" :P -Not the Bartenders in Shadowdale (Wiz 20 / Ftr 5 / Acm 5). |
| MarkusTay6302-04-08, 02:55 AM | Maybe El will BE the bartender in Sadowdale in 4e. After all, he's going to need a new line of work, with Mystra gone. ;) |
| Lord Karsus02-04-08, 03:33 AM | Maybe El will BE the bartender in Sadowdale in 4e. After all, he's going to need a new line of work, with Mystra gone. ;) -And, with all of the existing Bartenders in Shadowdale (Wiz 20 / Ftr 5 / Acm 5) suffering from the Spellplague and all, ther'll be need for more Bartenders in Shadowdale. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-04-08, 12:18 PM | The Elminster quote in the recent Dragon article left the impression that he hasn't changed radically as a person (that is, he is hopefully not the "new Mad Mage of the Undermountain"). |
| MarkusTay6302-10-08, 12:03 AM | I am assuming that the name of the year in new setting refers to El - Year of the Ageless One... Who the hell else is that going to refer to, after the s__t hits the fan? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin02-10-08, 06:03 PM | I am assuming that the name of the year in new setting refers to El - Year of the Ageless One... Who the hell else is that going to refer to, after the s__t hits the fan? I was hoping they'd go back to the time when the year names didn't refer to anything obvious. :-/ |
| MarkusTay6302-11-08, 12:41 AM | We should start doing that for the RW calender... How about 2008: Year of the crack-smoking designers? :P |
| Alediran02-11-08, 07:45 AM | We should start doing that for the RW calender... How about 2008: Year of the crack-smoking designers? :P 2008: Year of all **** hitting the fan. |