Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir_Wolfgar 03-27-07, 02:36 PM	So, I was wondering if any of you have heard of any ethnic tensions or racism between the different Human sub-groups in the Realms. I know the most I've dealt with racism is that which comes from noble Sun elves, but I may set up a campaign arc that has tension between some native Illuskans and some immigrating Chondathans somewhere along the sword coast north. Have any of you dealt with human-to-human racism in the Realms in your readings or campaigns? Any examples of it would be helpful, but if they deal with Illuskans, great.
Tevin Kevlak 03-27-07, 03:11 PM	Well, the Calishite humans typically think of themselves as superior so there's a plethora of possibilities there. Other than that the Rashemi and the Mulan (I believe) have had wars between their nations throughout history.
Stigger 03-27-07, 03:53 PM	Calishite vs everyone... though they kinda sorta get along with the Mulan, though I suspect that's largely because they're so geographically seperated from them more than anything. Arkaiun's (sp?) and the Crintri of Dambrath, Tethyrian's and the Calishites, etcetera and so forth. How violent and harsh it is is completely up to you... but as far as the Illuskan and Chondathan tension goes, I don't think that would be out of place at all really. Waterdeep:CoS hinted at it as I recall in the history, though I don't recall any explicit statements to that effect, as did Races of Faerun.
Alediran 03-27-07, 04:18 PM	There was a war between Ffolk natives from the Moonshaes and barbarians (probably Illuskans) conquerors.
Lord Karsus 03-27-07, 05:31 PM	-The Untheric don't really like the Mulhorandi, for obvious reasons.
Khaelieth 03-27-07, 06:38 PM	The Calishites were doomed to get slagged for all existance with that name.
Lord Karsus 03-27-07, 06:50 PM	The Calishites were doomed to get slagged for all existance with that name. -It's "ite" as in "fight", not "ite" as in "it". ;)
Khaelieth 03-27-07, 07:11 PM	Well, guess how the Scots pronounce their swear words;)
oracle71 03-28-07, 09:59 PM	Most of the conflicts that I see in the Realms seem to be more along national/political lines than ethnic lines. For example, Unther hates Mulhorand because Mulhorand conquered Unther, not because Mulhorand has a different ethnicity. That being said, I can think of 3 cases of this hatred possibly evolving into outright intra-species racism. The first the Rashemi/Thayan conflict, seeing as how Thay keeps trying to conquer Rasheman. After all, nothing escalates racism like a bunch of people from a different ethnicity continually trying to kill/conquer/enslave you. The second is the Calishite, because of their general disdain for non-Calishite cultures in general. The third is the Illuskans, who are generally seen as pirates and barbarians by their neighboring nations.
Calmar 03-29-07, 07:29 AM	I think we may not confuse political conflicts between two different groups of humans with ethnical conflicts. In my opinion, hatred between humans because of different skin colors, languages, or whatever does not fit to the humanity presented in the Forgotten Realms. Besides, in a world where evil, ihnumane creatures threaten human lives and challenge human realms everywhere and at every time, there is not much space for puny and useless struggles because of differing body features, IMHO. :) edit: fixed horrible grammar...
Stigger 03-29-07, 07:56 AM	Unless you're Calishite at least... but they seem to be the exception to a lot of different generalisms of the Realms at times. Otherwise, I'd totally agree with you Calmar.
Iakhovas 03-29-07, 09:30 AM	Historically there have been several examples of one human ethnic group enslaving or dominating another. The Imaskar enslaved the Mulan. The Ffolk enslaved the Mar. The Jhaamdathans enslaved the Turami. The Nexali enslaved the Payit. But as Alediran already mentioned, the best bet Sir_Wolfgar for your campaign would be the racial tensions between the Illuskans and Ffolk of the Moonshae.
ClobberinTime 03-29-07, 02:15 PM	The Tethyrians don't like either Genasai, or Calishites in general, this is more racial than nationalistic because its not just that they don't like Calishites from Calimishan. I'm sure the Amnians look down on the Mazticans. The barbarians of Ruathym, north Moonshaes look down on the Ffolk. The Damarrans in the moonsea region look down on the Chondathans of the Dales and Cormyr as being soft and weak. Unther and Mulhorand, are two racial groups really at odds too. Those are the obvious ones.
The Ubbergeek 03-29-07, 04:53 PM	The peoples of the Hordeland are looked down at by BOTH kara-turans and the Faerunian as uncultured, bloodthirsty barbarians....
Lord Karsus 03-29-07, 05:21 PM	The peoples of the Hordeland are looked down at by BOTH kara-turans and the Faerunian as uncultured, bloodthirsty barbarians.... -Poor guys...They do look a bit uncultured, hairly and smelly, though.
The Ubbergeek 03-30-07, 10:21 AM	-Poor guys...They do look a bit uncultured, hairly and smelly, though. Not unlike some dwarves. :P
Lord Karsus 03-30-07, 10:50 AM	Not unlike some dwarves. :P -Good point. They probably share quite a few chromosomes.
Faraer 03-30-07, 11:17 AM	Most of the conflicts that I see in the Realms seem to be more along national/political lines than ethnic lines. For example, Unther hates Mulhorand because Mulhorand conquered Unther, not because Mulhorand has a different ethnicity.That's right. Faerūn is 'racially' mixed, with most people not much aware of Chondathan, Tethyrian, Illuskan blood. Those are scholarly classifications, not in common use. Realms folk are concerned with communities and culture, far more than skin colour.
BadCatMan 03-31-07, 02:42 AM	Ethnic conflicts become kind of pointless when there's orcs, goblins and mindflayers and other alien creatures out there who mean you real harm.
Stigger 03-31-07, 04:39 AM	This, is true. Which is kinda why I've never understood Calishite culture too much... it's a little out of place in a lot of respects as far as I can tell. But it does provide a plethora of bad guy of the week fodder for me though, so it's not all bad. :D
Narsil 03-31-07, 09:04 AM	Well, guess how the Scots pronounce their swear words;) We even spell it with an 'e', too. ;) On topic; The Ffolk are said to be rather antisocial and generally uninterested in the rest of the world outside the Moonshaes, so it is said. And the Rashemi also tend to despise the Thayan Mulan, and vice versa.
The_Shaman 03-31-07, 12:06 PM	They are at odds, but I think the Thayan Mulan and the Mulhorandi Mulan despise each other much more... Nothing like a little fratricidal feud, eh ;) ? Thay, like Calimshan, seems to have few friends among its neighbors.
bayke 03-31-07, 01:09 PM	Considering that the Vaasans of Vaasa followed the Witch King and those of the Moonsea are dominated by the evil city-states of Mulmaster, Hillsfar, & Zhentil Keep, it would be easy to consider them as an evil human ethnicity. I could also see the Vaasans of Daggerdale (the only non-Chandathan Dale) becoming very Spartan in attitude. They would be very militaristic to protect themselves from their brethern of the Moonea as well as arrogant and resentful towards their fellow Dalesmen who, despite their cries of brotherhood, failed Daggerdale when they needed them the most.
The Ubbergeek 03-31-07, 03:19 PM	They are at odds, but I think the Thayan Mulan and the Mulhorandi Mulan despise each other much more... Nothing like a little fratricidal feud, eh ;) ? Thay, like Calimshan, seems to have few friends among its neighbors. They had bad blood between them... The Thayans where a part of Mulhorandi's people who broke up violently or somethig like that. They hate each others. It's kind of like the italians against the frenches and spaniards in the middle ages - related peoples, yet....
ClobberinTime 03-31-07, 04:55 PM	alright sorry in advance for posting on some RW stuff. The French are descended from mainly, the Romanized Celts, and the Franks who were germans. The Spanish are descended from the Iberians, the Goths and the Moors. The Italians, well from the servitor states of Rome, so the Romans.
Lord Karsus 03-31-07, 06:40 PM	Ethnic conflicts become kind of pointless when there's orcs, goblins and mindflayers and other alien creatures out there who mean you real harm. -I don't think so. Remember, the average person is, you know, a farmer, or a pesant, or whatever. The average person doesn't stray very far from his/her home and/or his/her city. The average person doesn't necessarily know what Orcs, Goblins, Mindflayers and other Alien Creatures are (Orcs and Goblins to a much lesser degree, though). So, in the end, the white man, the black man, and whatever else, is going to end up being scarier than some abstract term.
Borris 03-31-07, 07:05 PM	In Thay, almost all nobles are of Mulan descent. The worst situation for a Mulan Thayan will be as a farmer, craftsman, or poor merchant. Among commoners, Thayans of Rashemi descent form the great majority. While not oppressed, they have little opportunities for advancement, and only a few red wizards have Rashemi ancestors.
The Ubbergeek 03-31-07, 07:57 PM	-I don't think so. Remember, the average person is, you know, a farmer, or a pesant, or whatever. The average person doesn't stray very far from his/her home and/or his/her city. The average person doesn't necessarily know what Orcs, Goblins, Mindflayers and other Alien Creatures are (Orcs and Goblins to a much lesser degree, though). So, in the end, the white man, the black man, and whatever else, is going to end up being scarier than some abstract term. Well. there is common evil and rare ones if you wish... On teh frontiers or at least more distant, things like goblinoids are sadly more common than hoped. Duergars would never come however unless you lives near a great caves complex leading to the underdark. By example.
Lord Karsus 03-31-07, 08:46 PM	Well. there is common evil and rare ones if you wish... On teh frontiers or at least more distant, things like goblinoids are sadly more common than hoped. Duergars would never come however unless you lives near a great caves complex leading to the underdark. By example. -On the frontiers, and similar places, I would say that Humans definitley put aside their differences and unite to hate things such as Orcs, Goblins, and whatever else. But, I still stand by what I said before- In civilized, safe, racially homogenious places, ethnocentric conflicts are more common than xenophobic conflicts.
GothicDan 04-01-07, 03:19 AM	The Italians, well from the servitor states of Rome, so the Romans. Much, much more than that. Also the Sabines, the Ratuli, the Etruscans, etc. And maybe even some ancient pre-Swiss and 'Celts.'
Faraer 04-01-07, 09:51 AM	I could also see the Vaasans of Daggerdale (the only non-Chandathan Dale) becoming very Spartan in attitude. They would be very militaristic to protect themselves from their brethern of the Moonea as well as arrogant and resentful towards their fellow Dalesmen who, despite their cries of brotherhood, failed Daggerdale when they needed them the most.Daggerdalesmen are bitter because of their history; they don't see themselves as 'Vaasan'. (And the other Dalesfolk feel themselves Dalesfolk, not 'Chondathans'.)
bayke 04-01-07, 12:09 PM	Yes, but the folk of Daggerdale wouldn't have had such a crappy history to be bitter over if the other Dales would've got off their collective butts and helped. Oh wait, these are the same Dalesfolk who did nothing to save Teshendale and Tarkendale, who stood idly by while Archendale whiped Sessrendale from existence, and allowed Lashan to build Scardale into a massive regional threat. Moondale has proven to be the smartest of all Dales by getting the heck out and joining Sembia. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that a canny and eloquent leader could easily turn Daggerdale aganst the other Dales using past history and ethnic differences as a basis for the conflict.
Faraer 04-01-07, 02:18 PM	(OK, sorted out.) Daggerdale ethnicity is mixed: you have Netherese blood from Teshar, more from the Chondathan settlers of Merrydale and Dordrien, plus intermarriage (especially before it became Daggerdale) with the southern Dales. 'Vaasan' is a rather strange classification for the Netherese/Chondathans of the Moonsea cities plus Vaasa. You could certainly rile up Daggerdalesmen with us-vs-them nationalism, but doing it on an ethnic basis would be difficult because there's no history of racialist thinking, more shared blood than not, little or no physical difference to key it to, and -- especially after the Zhent occupation -- it would be a very hard sell to get them to identify themselves with Moonsea folk, Netheril, or the people of distant Vaasa.
Sir_Wolfgar 04-01-07, 02:53 PM	I'm glad to see the responses, but it appears inner-species racism is not a problem in most of Faerun. I'm toying with the idea of using a region I made up for a small campaign and populating it with various Realms organizations (taking what I want and leaving the rest out, a homebrew setting made of the same stock as FR). I think I will portray the Illuskans and Chondathans with a similar relation as the Nords and Imperials have in the Eldar Scrolls games, where the Chondathans are in governmental control of the province, while the Illuskans are the natives trying to adjust to the new rulers. I'll look at the Ffolk/Illuskan History for ideas. While you guys have mentioned that the Illuskans, Chondathans, Tethyrians and others all get along in the Realms (with the notable exceptions of the Calishites and Mulhurandi), you haven't mentioned the people of the Shaar or Kara-tur or Zakahara. How do you think the realms folk deal with foriegners of a much different complection?
Stigger 04-01-07, 04:46 PM	Never seen any evidence that it's any different from how they deal with anyone else. The Turmish, who've mostly been described as very dark people living in the middle of the Sea of Fallen Stars are generally very well received and are mostly considered very honest and scrupulous traders by most of their neighbors. I've never really gotten the impression that the Realms has a problem with other ethnicities at all really, simply because of skin color and appearances. Culture, sure, appearance, not really. As to the Zakharans and the Kara-Turans... as far as I'm aware, officially there's a good deal of tension between them and Faerun, though I find that aspect a little difficult to swallow, but that's more to do with problems I see in those particular subsettings to be honest, and the approach taken with them. The Kara-Turans (there's gotta be a better word for that, Shou maybe, but I don't recall offhand) seem to have something of a xenophobic attitude of all those Westerners being savages and barbarians and the like... way too much of an analog there with real life if you ask me. The Zakharans aren't that different, but it's based around a pseudo-monotheistic analog that seems to combine parts of Muslimism with possibly Persian pantheonism to get a strange whole that never quite worked in my mind. It's a very tolerant and accepting culture if you're all of the same religion, but if you're not of their religion, they seem to have an attitude of you being fair game for all sorts of abuse, as you don't really seem to count unless you're a member of an 'enlightened' religion. A lot of the culture and the set up of the religion don't make a lot of sense to me honestly, but there it is. So, I guess I would probably say that so long as you have coins and things to trade, taking a VERY broad view of the term trade, I've never gotten the impression that many people in wider Faerun cared one way or another what you looked like. If they can trade with a Loxo, I don't see where trading with a Kara-Turan or Zakharan is going to make much of a difference to them.
The Ubbergeek 04-01-07, 05:06 PM	Ah, I forgot - the Bedine of the Anauroch are seen like arabs in our world at times (the derogatives terms, you know), and the dark-skinned Chulteans are enslaved and seen as barbaric.
ClobberinTime 04-02-07, 11:45 AM	. Much, much more than that. Also the Sabines, the Ratuli, the Etruscans, etc. And maybe even some ancient pre-Swiss and 'Celts.' GD: Which of these was not a servitor state of Rome, certainly the Etruscans were, as were the ancient pre-swiss- i.e. cisalpine gaul. Not so sure about the Sabines and the Ratatooi. :)
GothicDan 04-02-07, 11:51 AM	The Etruscans!? A servitor state of Rome!? BLASPHEMY! /Etruscan fanatic.
Lord Karsus 04-02-07, 12:50 PM	Not so sure about the Sabines and the Ratatooi. :) -Isn't Ratatooi some kind of vegetable dish?
Stigger 04-02-07, 03:37 PM	Something like that I think... but as I know absolutely nothing about this Roman stuff, I'm staying out of it. :D
Panurg 04-10-07, 01:31 PM	The Etruscans!? A servitor state of Rome!? BLASPHEMY! /Etruscan fanatic. Nice reply! The Estruscans are more like forefathers of the ancient romans. Which means that when rome wasn't even built, or simply a small town, they had a little empire in the region at the coast of the Thyrrenian Sea called Etruria. I'm also quite fascinated with them, the first roman "priest-kings" (the term caesar or emperor comes much later) were etruscians. :)
GothicDan 04-10-07, 05:00 PM	Well, not the first. But the Tarquins were Etruscan (Romulus wasn't, Numa was a Sabine, Ancus was Alban, I believe), and there's recently been archaeological evidence as to specifically Etruscan influence in the earliest of Roman temples. So though the idea that Etruria dominated Roman culture has been largely debunked, there's more than enough evidence necessary to indicate a specific Etruscan dynasty in Roman culture. And, of course, Etrurian religious beliefs are suffused all throughout those of Rome.