Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quale_ 03-16-08, 12:35 PM	we've recently started playing D&D, so far we haven't decided which world to pick, I'm doing some research one Ebberon fan said: As for the epics vs commoners comment, Forgotten Realms is sadly the culprit. I don't have the books in front of me but a little town like Silverymoon has something like a dozen epic spellcasters, yet the town doesn't have running water or has the streets lit up with continual flame spells at night. It is very must a medieval society that happens to have people living in town that have the power of a small nuclear weapon... in Eberron the setting is more renaissance with a dash of early twentieth century attitude and morals. The people with magic use it to practical ends. I've only glanced at the main book in the store, but this seems kinda prejudiced, or I'm wrong?
Alediran 03-16-08, 12:48 PM	Yes it's VERY prejudiced, to begin with, Silverymoon is not a small town, it's the Jewel of the North, it's construction style is a mixture of elven, dwarven, human, halfling and gnomish styles. Wizards in Forgotten Realms keep their magic to themselves, that's why we don't usually see the kind of things that appear in Eberron, the ones who do it usually are Elves, and only in their own realms. And he picked a very bad example with Silverymoon, which has a Mythal that offers better things that Continual Flames. Here I list those benefits: Spells denied: Spells with Death Descriptor, Evil Descriptor, Teleportation Descriptor, Conjuration (summoning), Evocation (fire) Always active: Antipathy (against all evil creatures, keyed to demons, devils, drow, duergar, giants, goblinoids, mind flayers, orcs and trolls), Detect Scrying, Invisibility Purge, Death Ward, Protection From Evil, Zone of Truth (Inner Ward only) Spells available to those attuned: Air Walk, Bless Weapon, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Control Water (great for RUNNING WATER), Control Winds, Cure Moderate Wounds (Inner Ward only), Discern Lies, Dispel Chaos, Dispel Evil, Feather Fall, Forcecage (Inner Ward only), Lesser Ironguard, Magic Missile, Neutralize Poison (Inner Ward only), Prismatic Sphere (Inner Ward only), Quench, Remove Curse, Remove Paralysis, Repulsion, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Silence, Tongues. Special Power: Control Moonbridge. So yes, he is very ignorant, he may have Continual Flames in their cities, buy Silverymoon has MUCH more powerful magic on it.
Quale_ 03-16-08, 01:04 PM	ok, what about other towns without all that
Phelf_Der_Zemit 03-16-08, 01:07 PM	:clap:....:clap:.. :clap: :clap: (Slow Clap) :cheer: :clap: :w00t: That is all very true. Not to mention you could fit about three eberrons into the forgotten realms collected history. It so deep and rich that if you don't want to deal with any epic level charactors you can just go to a relativly unknown place (or the DM could just take them out.).
Phelf_Der_Zemit 03-16-08, 01:12 PM	Double post sry. If your talking about town with out a mythal then you just have a reguallar rural town. In big cities most noble houses have a form of running water provided by the house wizard. If you ask me the only real difference it that ebberon has flying stuff with machines and faerun has the classic no electricty type feel. (doesn't sound as specific as it does in my head.).
Quale_ 03-16-08, 01:22 PM	is the regular life in Shadowdale rich with simple magic? living machines are awful
Phelf_Der_Zemit 03-16-08, 01:47 PM	Not usually. the only wizard there I think is/was eliminster (Sp?).
MarkusTay63 03-16-08, 02:35 PM	In Eberron, Mages have turned magic into a business - The Dragonmarked Houses are little more then Uber-guilds. Magic-users in the Realms are more sensible... why should they waste a valuable resource lighting the city, when you can pay a couple of commoners a few silvers to go around every night and light the streetlamps? Eberron Mages are too busy making Money to 'dream big', at least most of them. FR's Wizards all have goals and desires unique to THEM, not some guild, and while many of them are trying to obtain true power, others are putting there efforts into stopping those that abuse that power. Its all about politics and balance, not sales and numbers. While it is true that there are a great many 'little towns' that have a nearby mage with at least some talent (12+), there are a hundred times that many tiny villages that have NO nearby magic users, except for perhaps a VERY low-level priest (1-3 lev), which most do not. You must remember, the bigger towns are juicy targets for raiders and monsterous types, so it makes some sense that they would make a deal with a mage to live close by - its more of a symbiotic relationship. Also, a great many of those 'rural mages' are NOT epic level, just powerful, same as a 10th level fighter would be compared to ordinary folks. The cities, of course, usually have many Mages, but the same goes for Eberron. Its just their goals are completely different (most of the time - Eberron does have its 'schemers'). Truthfully, if YOU were an Archmage, would you waste your time and talent ferrying people around in a magical contrivance, or would you be planning world domination? :devil: Its not that FR's 'tech' isn't up to it... Netheril was very much like Eberron, as is Halruaa, and perhaps Imaskar was as well (they do seem to have some sort of 'automated' repair systems in place, and their portal system blows away anything in Eberron as far as 'persoanl conveinances' go). I think the Dragonmarked Houses is what makes Eb so different when it comes to magic - they turned something that should have been 'mysterious' into the mundane, and for me, that takes a lot away from a fantasy setting. But its all a matter of taste - I just LOVE the Choo-Choo! :D
Meldread 03-16-08, 02:49 PM	Quale- I think the quote you posted sums up Eberron very well: In Eberron the setting is more renaissance with a dash of early twentieth century attitude and morals. The people with magic use it to practical ends. As for the references to the Forgotten Realms made in the same quote... they are both right and wrong. What you need to understand, immediately, is that the Forgotten Realms has many different areas - it is a huge place. Before picking a setting, you should ask yourself what type of game you want to run? What type of flavor are you looking for? The Forgotten Realm's can (at least at this point in time) accommodate many different tastes and styles. Also, a DM should not feel shy about taking what they like, ignoring the rest, and doing whatever they want with the setting. In the Realms, if you want gritty and dark you can adventure in Vassa and its surrounding lands. If you want political intrigue - well there are lots of places for that depending on preference and theme. Cormyr is nice for struggles between noble houses, especially with the loss of their king and the next in line to the throne is a very young child who is not yet ready. However, there is also Tethyr. If you're looking for political struggles between wealthy merchants then Amn might be for you, and as an added bonus you also get connections to the "new world" - which you can think of roughly as South America - it's called Maztica in the Realms. If you want a place of high magic, where walking down the street you're practically going to trip over Wizards, then Waterdeep and Silverymoon are ideal places. For more low magic, Vassa mentioned above is good, as well as Maztica, and pretty much any other somewhat untamed and civilized land. If you want to try and carve out your own kingdom, then the Border Kingdoms might be for your group. The world is HUGE and there are so many places to explore and so much to do that your group will literally never get the chance to do or see it all. My suggestion is to pick up the Forgotten Realm's Campaign Setting and read Chapter 4. It contains a list of all the known lands, brief descriptions and other key details. That should be enough for an imaginative DM to just make up the rest. There are also other books giving various regions a more in depth look and fleshing out the detail - books such as the Unapproachable East. There are also whole giant landmasses where your DM can just begin filling in his own stuff to suit your group. One of the main attractive qualities of the Realms is its general flexibility to different styles of play. Also, you should be made aware that in the near future 4th Edition D&D and 4th Edition Forgotten Realms will be hitting the shelves. They both change a lot. The 4E Realms looks like it will lack a lot of the flexibility I mentioned previously, but if your group is looking for a setting with lots of magic and other fantastical things then 4th Edition Forgotten Realms might be worth waiting for... otherwise, you might want to stay tuned into 3rd Edition Realms. If you are a fan of the novels and that is what is bringing you to consider playing in the Realms then you might want to wait until 4E Realms. They are more geared toward that type of audience. If you have any other questions I'll do my best to answer.
Quale_ 03-16-08, 02:53 PM	thanks Markus, now you've clarified a lot of things I like this take on wizards, money isn't that important in terms of power in such worlds, does FR have something similar to a Dragonmarked house? nice explanation about the villages it seems that FR has the Ebberon tech (but in suble ways, that's more appealing) and whole lot of other stuff I agree that making it mundane takes much, arcana means something esoteric
Meldread 03-16-08, 02:56 PM	Ah! Yes, there are still TWO very big differences between the settings. First, the gods in the Forgotten Realms - they are real and interactive. Everyone knows that they exist and are there. This is not so in Eberron. The gods are distant and unknowable. There are still clerics and the like but overall they are much more free to do what they want. You can play an 'evil' Cleric of a 'good' God. Additionally, perhaps because of the above, Eberron is a more 'gray' setting. There is still conceptions of good and evil, but it isn't as black and white like in the Forgotten Realms. In the Realms there is a very definite sense of what is good and what is evil. That doesn't mean you can't play a 'gray' game - you can - it's just that most of the world design assumes that everyone knows what is good and what is evil. That brings it more in line with traditional D&D.
Meldread 03-16-08, 03:11 PM	I suggest checking out the Download section as well. You can grab the Maztica campaign setting (the "New World" I spoke of earlier), a very good and highly detailed look at the Lands of Intrigue, Calimport, the Vilhon Reach, and many, many other things. This will prove useful and valuable to your group. It's all old 2E stuff, but you can still use the fluff in it to run your games in 3E or even 4E if you like the new rules. (Or even, an entirely different rule set all together.) Check it out here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads).
Quale_ 03-16-08, 03:31 PM	What you need to understand, immediately, is that the Forgotten Realms has many different areas - it is a huge place. Before picking a setting, you should ask yourself what type of game you want to run? What type of flavor are you looking for? I'm looking for a place with lot of flexibility and options, yea, a huge place but with many unique cultures, and environments (not many deserts), more libertarian in nature, less tyranny and bureaucracy. Less religion, balanced with other philosophies and ideologies, I like the Ebberon, more agnostic take on religions. And maybe with the feel of Tolkien's world, but in the times when great evil was dormant, not dualistic. It's just for the background, I know that DM can change anything
Quale_ 03-16-08, 03:47 PM	I suggest checking out the Download section as well. You can grab the Maztica campaign setting (the "New World" I spoke of earlier), a very good and highly detailed look at the Lands of Intrigue, Calimport, the Vilhon Reach, and many, many other things. This will prove useful and valuable to your group. It's all old 2E stuff, but you can still use the fluff in it to run your games in 3E or even 4E if you like the new rules. (Or even, an entirely different rule set all together.) Check it out here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads). thanks, actually our DM knows about this, but has left us to choose and ask around, he favors FR tough and thinks it doesn't have a bright future
Dark Wizard 03-16-08, 04:08 PM	That FR doesn't use magic to any practical end for every day tasks is incorrect based partly on the adventure oriented slant of the source books. Eberron just happens to seize up that concept as a selling point. WotC likely decided to de-emphasize such nuances in the Realms during 3e to better differentiate the two settings (or just not bring it to any attention at all). I recall at least as far back as the Nobles series in the novel King Pinch made mention of magically lighted streets in such low-profile cities as Ankhapur and Elturel. The mundane utility of the mythals were covered previously by Alediran. There are numerous places throughout the realms where magic enhances the harvest yield of crops. One of the dales has a cadre of wizards who lifts ferries over a waterfall in the river for a suitable charge of course. I believe there is a wizard in Calimshan who makes life-like prosthetics for those who lost a limb. Not to mention the merchant family in the novel Darkvision who do the same.
Meldread 03-16-08, 04:31 PM	I'm looking for a place with lot of flexibility and options, yea, a huge place but with many unique cultures, and environments (not many deserts), more libertarian in nature, less tyranny and bureaucracy. FR shines in all of those areas. You'll love the Vilhon Reach. It's mostly a bunch of city-states with a very libertarian feel. Less religion, balanced with other philosophies and ideologies, I like the Ebberon, more agnostic take on religions. FR is not so good here. Since the gods are tangible beings who have somewhat regular interactions with their priests and worshipers. And maybe with the feel of Tolkien's world, but in the times when great evil was dormant, not dualistic. Hmm... Well this really depends on region. Everything in FR really depends on region. I could easily suggest, for example, a DM to just pick a region and move it wholesale to his or her own campaign world. You could do that with something like the Bloodstone Lands, and have most everything you want, with the Eberron take on the gods and all. However, I think your group might find the most enjoyment in the Vilhon Reach. You get a little bit of everything there, and if your DM favors distant gods like Eberron, it could work in the Reach. Additionally, I recommend it because you can download the Vilhon Reach supplement from the website. Nothing beats free. On top of that the area is easy to customize to your groups taste. It's very hard for me to say to someone, "The Forgotten Realm's is perfect for your game." The fact of the matter is, the setting is so vast and some of the regions so different in theme that while one area might be suitable another area might not. Therefore, the best that I can tell anyone is, "There is a place in the Forgotten Realms where you can set your game." With the Reaches customizability your group can begin their game there, your DM can take out what he doesn't like and add in what he does. Then if your DM wants he can even begin building an entirely different world around the Reach itself, removing it from the Forgotten Realm's Campaign Setting entirely. EDIT: I should also point out that if you want to go with the whole Dragonmarked Houses idea from Eberron you could easily fit that into the Vilhon Reach. Especially if you take out (or de-emphasized) the Emerald Enclave and use them as a replacement. That was another reason I suggested it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-16-08, 05:12 PM	we've recently started playing D&D, so far we haven't decided which world to pick, I'm doing some research one Ebberon fan said: I've only glanced at the main book in the store, but this seems kinda prejudiced, or I'm wrong? No. It seems like yet another instance of someone talking out of their ass. Silverymoon, for instance, is not a "little town", it's a large city. That person also can't express himself (herself?) well through writing.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-16-08, 05:20 PM	thanks, actually our DM knows about this, but has left us to choose and ask around, he favors FR tough and thinks it doesn't have a bright future I'd recommend looking though the actual sources for both worlds, and picking the one you take a shining to. The accounts of certain fans (like the one you posted) are likely to be biased, although you had a feeling the account you showed us was biased, so you are probably a good judge of which accounts are more objective.
Neveroth 03-17-08, 02:53 PM	Rinonalyrna makes a good point. You can't really reach a decision without checking out the settings for yourself. Fans tend to swing one way or the other, thus making statements such as the one you quoted in the OP heavily biased more often than not. Most of what people said here about the Realms is true. It's a brilliant setting, very richly detailed (enough to seem intimidating even), with a good measure of flexibility. It supports a wide variety of playstyles due to its enormous size and different regions, but most people would describe it as high fantasy, very epic, with deities playing big (and very real) roles in its development. Eberron has a more shades of grey, noir feel to it, with some pulp and victorian steampunk elements added to the mix. Think Casablanca with a touch of Indiana Jones and Sherlock Holmes. Being a relatively new setting, it leaves quite a bit to the imagination, which some consider a good thing, and others hate it. A matter of personal preference really. It's also geared more toward lower-level play than FR, and has a more monster-friendly background (orcs can be good and have a strong druidic tradition in the world, there are goblinoid kingdoms and districts mentioned here and there, a nation of monstrous humanoids led by a trio of hags, et cetera). The gods are distant and silent, and churches operate more as political organizations than their direct tools. No one really knows whether the deities of Eberron are real entities or just symbols of certain phylosophies, so faith is more a matter of personal choice (much like real-world religions).
MarkusTay63 03-17-08, 05:02 PM	Considering his list of Criteria, Greyhawk actually sounds pefect, pre-GH-Wars... A hodge-podge of cultures, the 'gods' are much more 'hands-off' then they are in FR (although they do have anthropomorphic aspects, they behave more like 'concepts'). And if you set it pre-GH Wars, you've got Iuz acting like the 'Dormant Great Evil' (Dark Lord) that you are looking for flavor-wise. Unfortunetly, the 3e GH stuff is far less then adequate, so your DM would have to convert a lot of stuff from earlier material. :( But you get Vecna, and he is SO off-the-hook. :P
Neveroth 03-17-08, 07:07 PM	Also, just to clarify one thing. Magic is by no means made 'common' in Eberron. It assists day-to-day life in ways such as powering street lamps, elevators, trains, the water system and alike, and through the occasional cantrip-level items here and there. Say... a clunky b&w camera, or a quill that produces its own ink. However, high level mages (such as the multitude we have in FR) are almost unheard of (I believe the highest written-up NPC is a 17th level transmuter, who is also insane and generally doesn't leave his tower). Most of the effects I mention above are produced by magewrights (an unimpressive NPC class), and real, serious magic is in fact quite rare and 'mysterious' in the eyes of your average commoner. If magic has been made 'ordinary' in one of these two settings, it would be FR (although I personally wouldn't say that's the case).
MarkusTay63 03-17-08, 10:15 PM	If magic has been made 'ordinary' in one of these two settings, it would be FR (although I personally wouldn't say that's the case).Not seeing THAT at all, and I do own every Eberron book. I can't say the same for FR... I am missing one or two. ;) The problem is that the novels have mostly been written about the 'epic' guys, not the 'regular people', so once again we have a perfect example of the novels undermining peoples perception of the Realms. DON'T read the novels - they are about people your charcters will most likely never be or meet. For a really terrific feel for the Realms, you need to read the OLD lore, like the 1e and 2e Campaign boxes. Magic is something really special, and don't let any amount of poor writing tell you otherwise.
Thinblade 03-17-08, 11:04 PM	Disclaimer: I'm an old FR hand. I started playing back in 1e and own pretty much every book ever published. Naturally, I love the setting. However, I also own most of the Eberron books, so feel qualified to enter the discussion. First, I agree completely with Rino: your friend doesn't have the least clue what he's talking about. Since others have effectively debunked the claims, I'll leave it at that. Second, one of the hallmarks of the Realms from the beginning has been the breadth of the setting. Faerun just by itself is three or four times the size of the continental United States. We're talking HUGE. You can find pretty much any genre you could want to play somewhere in the Realms. Gritty wilderness survival? Vaasa/Damara, or the North outside of the big cities. Magic-oozing-down-the-streets? Silverymoon, Waterdeep to a slightly lesser extent, Halruaa, Thay. Barbarian horse lords? Shaar, Nar, or the Hordelands. Court intrigue? Cormyr, Waterdeep, Silverymoon, and a dozen others. Vilhon Reach and points south if you like (or hate) snakes. Mercantile? Sembia and Amn. Country rent by civil war? Tethyr (1st and 2nd edition, at least) Spelunking? Oh my yes. I'll just mention Drizzt's Guide to the Underdark and leave it at that. Thanks to 2e expansion campaign settings, we even have most cultures you could want: Ancient Egyptian (Mulhorand), Arabian (Zakhara), the New World (Maztica), the Mongols (the Hordelands), and ancient China/Japan/etc (the old Kara-Tur/Oriental Adventures. Not the Rokugan one). Now, this isn't to say that Eberron isn't a good campaign setting. It is, at least in my opinion. However, just like Dragonlance before it (though to a slightly lesser extent), Eberron lacks some of FR's ability to do whatever what you want. There is a very strong central storyline (in this case, the Last War), and everything else relates to that story. FR doesn't have a central story line, and never has. While that means it's taken more reading to grasp (there isn't an FR version of "Dragons of.." that one can read and get everything they need), it also means that you are much more free to find a corner that you like, that may not be very much like the rest of the setting. Fair warning: 4e FR isn't going to be like this, at least as far as we can tell from the advance looks we've been getting. But there's twenty years and more of lore already published, some of it freely downloadable, which gives more than enough info for a lifetime of gaming.
MarkusTay63 03-18-08, 02:54 AM	Yes, one of the things the designers mentioned early on about FR is that it had no 'central theme' Of course, that was bulls__t, because the theme of FR is "all things to all people", which couldn't be MORE inclusive. I think the new 'theme' for FR is going to be 'Fantastic Vistas' or some-such, judging by the types of changes being made - so far thats the ONLY 'defining' thing I can see about the new Realms. And just to add one more thing On-topic: If you think that Eberron is all that, just take a look at Halruaa - http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ssouth_gallery/84389.jpg Yes, FR can even be Eberron, if you want it to be. ;)
Neveroth 03-18-08, 03:10 AM	So you are comparing a nation of Netherese descendant wizards to a gritty noir low-level setting with minor magical influences? Apart from skyships and the like, I cannot imagine them being any further apart. There's no such thing as a nation of wizards in Eberron, let alone several. And that's actually quite a good illustration of some of the worlds' key differences in itself. EDIT: And since I've been mostly defending the Eberron side here, let me point out a few things that I dislike about it: 1. Warforged/Kalashtar/Shifter art - Interesting concepts all, but the art is for the most part... uninspiring, at best. Seriously, who came up with the ninja turtles feet idea for the warforged? That person needs to be shot. With a hammer. The kalashtar and inspired are always drawn in funny outfits that are supposed to be exotic but just fail in all respects, and shifters could have been left with a little less uniformity in their appearance. I'm sure some people would want their lycan heritage displayed through something other than giant sideburns. 2. Dinosaur-riding halflings - Just no. Please no. I'm aware that halflings needed some fluff added, but they could have just as easily gone with the river-based trade/piracy theme instead. Or the regular nomad gypsy thing, only expanded and made more interesting. I mean... Dinosaurs? I know some people like them, but I'll never get over it. 3. Names of deities. Kol something, Kol something else, Dol something... Creativity people! It's not just a word. The names of the Dark Six are much catchier. Maybe it's just one of Keith's subtle tricks to turn us all to the dark side. 4. The lack of subraces. Keith hates them, I happen to like them. Matter of taste, but there you go. His version of drow goes under here as well, as both a blessing and a curse. They're interesting and different, at the cost of not being the same (oddly enough). I always liked the traditional drow so I have mixed feelings about this. 5. Different cosmology (some parts of which I enjoy though), lack of traditional Aasimar and Tieflings. 6. The Draconic Prophecy, and the entire concept of the world being explained as dragons piled on top of one another. Dragons are not that interesting anymore. Yes, I really mean that. Overdone to death. ((There's probably more. If I remember anything, I'll add it later.))
Stigger 03-18-08, 03:33 AM	I suspect Markus was more getting at the idea of skyships and somewhat over the top magical gizmos in relatively common use in some places. I doubt theme really came into the equation there, although the older edition Moonsea and Vast would work lend themselves fairly well to the (very) general theme of Eberron I think.
Meldread 03-18-08, 04:25 AM	Lantan might also lend itself to an Eberron-like game if you are looking for something more along the lines of steampunk.
Neveroth 03-18-08, 04:49 AM	Only it's filled with gnomes! Beware.
Stigger 03-18-08, 06:36 AM	Don't think they make up even 20% of the population last I looked... don't recall for 3e offhand though.
Meldread 03-18-08, 06:48 AM	Yeah, there are a lot of Gnomes in Lantan but they aren't the only race. From what I know of Eberron though it tries to enforce a sense of multi-racial cultures. (Thus moving the conflict away from more traditional race vs race conflicts to culture / nation vs culture / nation conflicts. Which actually makes sense.) Of course, keep in mind, I've only given some glances to Eberron and have little interest in the setting. However, if anyone wanted to port some Eberron concepts over (such as Warforged, Lightning Rails, and the like) Lantan would be the ideal place in my opinion.
Stigger 03-18-08, 07:19 AM	I hear about the racial conflicts in Faerun a lot, but honestly, I really don't see much of it. Stereotypes perhaps, and the PC games tend to play it up, but I really don't see much of it in print. Could have something to do with not reading novels though.
Quale_ 03-18-08, 09:27 AM	thanks to all, you helped me a lot now I have to consult with other players I borrowed both campaigns from the library does anyone know what will future FR and Ebberon art look like? picture that MarkusTay posted was dope, Eberron, not so
Meldread 03-18-08, 09:43 AM	You're pretty much right, really. There is some flavor here and there to give 'hints' of conflict without there actually really being any. Most conflict that happens between certain races, cultures or nations almost has to be contrived. I would argue that this is a weakness in the design of the setting. Ignoring races for a moment, what really makes a human from Tethyr and a human from Sembia different from each other? Not much really, and this is really a strong area in Eberron. Of course, that is not to say there is not conflict. It just is not given any emphases and thus is either overlooked or underplayed. (Example: The conflicts between Sembia and Cormyr.) This is something I would consider a flaw in design. Take a look at how Eberron is set up (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebug/20041115a). In a standard campaign, racial interaction among the Player's Handbook races is pretty simple. Humans get along with everyone, dwarves think elves are flighty, nobody trusts half-orcs, and so on. Despite these feelings, the typical D&D campaign has a fairly cosmopolitan feel, with all races living in peace in larger cities with no serious racial conflicts. In the Eberron setting, things are much more complicated, mainly in that there are different groups of each race, and people may have bad feelings toward one and not the other; racism's roots in Eberron, as in the real world, tend to be based on culture rather than actual race. (As the Eberron Campaign Setting says on page 24, "A character from an Eberron campaign is never just a human or a dwarf: He is a human from Thrane or a dwarf from the Mror Holds.") For example, the elves of House Phiarlan are an old dragonmarked house with a centuries-long history of entertainment and artistry; most common folk praise them and their work. In contrast to that house, the elves of the new nation of Valenar are seen as land thieves and a threat to the peace established by the Treaty of Thronehold. Will the acts of the Valenar elves paint those of House Phiarlan with the same stigma? Will the people of Khorvaire grow to dislike elves as a whole but tolerate House Phiarlan because "they're the good ones"? Humans, as rulers of much of Khorvaire for nearly a thousand years, have a reputation for nation building. Sharn is arguably the greatest city on the continent, and its residents see themselves as the most civilized people on the continent. By contrast, the humans of the Shadow Marches are illiterate unwashed swamp-dwellers who consort with orcs. Even though a human from Sharn may look exactly like a human from the Shadow Marches, the Brelander is comfortable looking down on the Marcher as something less human. Likewise, the refugees from Cyre, regardless of race, are looked down upon as the biggest losers in the war that hurt everyone, and some folk think disaster struck the Cyrans because they somehow deserved it, and so they heap additional abuse on them for their assumed crimes. Culture, not physical race, is seen as justifiable cause for prejudice. Half-orcs, often the scapegoat for anything unpleasant, most commonly hail from Droaam, the Eldeen Reaches, or the Shadow Marches, and some form part of House Tharashk. People see Droaam half-orcs as dangerous monsters and Shadow Marches half-orcs as primitives; citizens of Aundair see Reaches half-orcs (and anyone else from there) as separatists and nation-betrayers while those outside Aundair don't think about them at all. In contrast to all of this, most consider House Thrarashk's half-orcs and humans to be very talented scouts with a critical skill for finding valuable resources. Again, culture and nationality is more important than actual race. It is a very different and in my opinion more realistic and superior approach. Eberron benefits a lot from this, but this is because the designers had the luck of looking at settings such as the Forgotten Realms who paved the way. In my opinion, rather than go the route they have with 4E, I would have preferred some of the design decisions used in Eberron (such as the above) applied to the Realms. Instead of taking a hammer to the setting and throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it may have been better simply to begin retconning the setting. They could have released the new FRCS detailing the updated version of the Realms making it more cohesive and compact. After that they could have released a GHotR II for the 4E Realms. The Realms lacks the above like Eberron because a lot has been simply tacked on over time. (That is also why you can easily remove large parts of the Realms and place it in a homebrew. So it is a double edged sword!) Going back over the setting and trying to make it more interconnected, smoothing out the rougher edges, and even throwing out or completely re-writing whole chunks that just did not work (Maztica) would likely have gone a long way toward improving it.
Meldread 03-18-08, 09:45 AM	Quale- I have no clue on what the new art will look like, sorry. Good luck on finding a setting. I hope you and your friends have fun in whatever you decide. If you have any Forgotten Realm's related questions I'm sure everyone here would be happy to help as best we can.
Red_Wizard 03-18-08, 09:57 AM	I would like to add something small, that seems to be a rallying point for many anti-Faerun supporters. The claim is that there are to many high level NPC's kicking around the realms. They summarily back up this claim by pointing out all the ones statted in the various sources, and suggesting that to be the norm. Now to squash this little falsity for you, lets look at numbers and practicality quickly. Firstly, lets compare the Queen of England to joe nobody from jersey. How many books are there on joe? How many on the Queen? Yet the Queen is but one women, and joe nobody could easily be any one of 10 million people in the states alone. Should we then assume though that the world is too full of Queens? Seems proposterous no? Now numbers briefly. Let's assume there are 1000 beings in faerun, levels 15+, or perhaps even 20+. Now lets take a number like 1,000,000. Granted it is ludacrisly small, as three of the major cities combined could reach that population without blinking, but lets be fair for the naysayers. Now anyone good at math can clearly figure out that 1000 big badies, is only 0.1% of the entire population of the planet. Assuming there are only 1 million people on all Toril. If we increase the number to say 10 Million, suddenly all those epics become only 0.01% of the population. Strange how such a low number can constitute an argument like "there are to many". ;) -RW
Alediran 03-18-08, 10:20 AM	Meldread, the interracial conflict in Eberron may be colorfull, but it gives DMs with players that want to play races that are in conflict a big headache. The same happened in the oWoD Vampire, when you got a player who wanted a Tremere and another who wanted a Tzimisce it was almost impossible they didn't killed each other in the first game session. That's why the new Vampire destroyed the automatically enemity between vampire races/groups. The standar reaction among them is of neutrality, not forced enemity. One Vampire may belong to one of the Vampiric groups and hate the other 4, but it's an exception, not a norm. FR is ahead of Eberron in that aspect because it doesn't forces automatic hate between Elves and Dwarves and orcs, etc. When it happens it on a more personal level, and even Harpers and Zhentarims sometimes fight side by side. I actually see that aspect of Eberron as more Black & White than the Realms approach.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-18-08, 11:29 AM	2. Dinosaur-riding halflings - Just no. Please no. I'm aware that halflings needed some fluff added, but they could have just as easily gone with the river-based trade/piracy theme instead. Or the regular nomad gypsy thing, only expanded and made more interesting. I mean... Dinosaurs? I know some people like them, but I'll never get over it. Heh--the dino-riding halflings and the ancestor worshipping Aerenal were my two favorite things from the Eberron setting, actually.:) As for Lantan: It is mostly made up of humans. Gnomes are well-known there and definitely "visible", but they don't make up the bulk of the populace.
Meldread 03-18-08, 11:38 AM	Alediran- You're right it is slightly more of a headache, but over all it makes more sense to the overall setting and provides deeper amounts of lore and fluff. There are, of course, always exceptions to the general rule, and the PC's are the kings and queens of the exception. :P For example, in the Realms Unther and Mulhorand are currently at war. If you are setting a campaign in the region, one PC might want to be a Priest of Horus-Re from Mulhorand while another might want to play a Rogue from Unther. If you just look at the fluff you'd expect that the two would be at odds right from the start. However, that doesn't take into consideration the following: The Priest of Horus-Re could be sympathetic to the Untheric people and reject the notion of Mulhorandi conquest. He could secretly be working to undermine his own countries expantion and undermine the Church of Anhur's influence - believing that their influence undermines the influence of Horus-Re and it is them who got the nation into the mess to begin with. The PC Rogue could be a contact of his within Unther or a member of the organization that he also supports that embraces Untherian Independence. On the other hand, the Rogue could be completely indifferent to the plight of her people. It doesn't matter to her one way or another what happens to her nation - she had no loyalty to it anyway. She supports the Priest of Horus-Re and the Mulhorandi because they pay well, and we all know the golden rule: Those with the gold make the rules. Even still, the Rogue could be an agent for Mulhorand working to undermine her own people. She could have been responsible for providing Mulhorand with important information that assisted them in their war. She could be a strong supporter of Mulhorand and a secret follower of one (or more) of the Mulhorandi deities. Or, really, any other number of situations. Of course, I do not want to paint the picture that conflict between PC's should be discouraged. That can often times lead to great RP. However, what you described and what I described are two different things. What I described seems to be more like what Eberron has in mind. What you described is something more along the lines of: One player wants to play a Drow Priest of Vhaeraun and another wants to play a Moon Elf Priest of Shevarash. Seeing as how that situation could only end in bloodshed (barring any major heretical beliefs) someone has to give and come up with another concept. The same is true for followers of Bane and Torm and the like, obviously evil PC's in a group with a Paladin, etc. The Realms has plenty of those types of problems, which seems to be what you are describing. I mostly see the problems Eberron offers as flavor and fluff rather than actual problems for a DM and players.
Alediran 03-18-08, 11:50 AM	I'm lucky to have a stable and mature group of players that would never do something like that just to give me a headache, they don't complain about High Level NPCs either and they have already met Drizzt & co, Alustriel (made them Harpers), Storm (helped them to reach Daggerdale), Alediran's Father (A High Mage).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-18-08, 11:52 AM	I'm lucky to have a stable and mature group of players that would never do something like that just to give me a headache, they don't complain about High Level NPCs either and they have already met Drizzt & co, Alustriel (made them Harpers), Storm (helped them to reach Daggerdale), Alediran's Father (A High Mage). For me, that would be a fun campaign.:)
Alediran 03-18-08, 12:19 PM	For me, that would be a fun campaign.:) They are currently kicking drow arse in CotSQ, we finished the Cleft of Sorrow (where the Shadow Dragon and the Kir-Lanan live) and we continue in our march to Maerymidra. Chapter 3 is going to be the first "classical" surface adventure (Chapter 1 was based in Silverymoon and close areas) and Chapter 4 is going to be a Heroes of Battle type of campaign using the Elven Crusade, Chpater 5 will put the heroes in comanding positions on Myth Drannor during the rebuilding time. On April it will have it's second birthday.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-18-08, 12:33 PM	Again, sounds like a fun campaign.:)
Rauric 03-18-08, 12:49 PM	I have run an Eberron game and never found the regional prejudice to cause me any headaches. It is not like someone is killed on sight if they are from a different region or are a different race. Since the countries got over a century long war national tensions are strong. You need papers to cross borders and their still is a Cold War element going on. If you see a Valenar elf you know he is a lot different then an Arenal elf or a "City" elf. The same goes for dwarves from Mror hold and dwarves living in one of the Five Nations. Half-orcs have their own area along with Orcs and they are more "one with the planet" to me than raiding raping monsters. They actually saved the planet once already. When I ran a FR game I used national and racial prejudices at times also. People were wary of Thayans, and people from the Moonsea. If the campaign was set in the Moonsea or Thay people would be wary of Dalesfolk. Dark elves are feared at first sight even with the "legend" of Drizzt. Orcs and goblins are really not found in civilized areas such as towns or cities. Then there is the infamous all Gold elves are rascist nazis!!! I never use thatr stereotype but I do play up their feelings of superiority over the other races. Not with all of them but some. I think Halruua is pretty xenophobix towards outsiders. Neither setting is without it's racial prejudices in my opinion.People from both settingshave equally strong racial and national identities IMO.
Stigger 03-18-08, 02:52 PM	Now nationalism is an idea that definitely seems to be prevalent in Faerun at times... not really racism as much though, which I definitely prefer. I get enough racism in real life to ever bother with it in something that's supposed to be fun. And I'm fairly sure that Eberron possesses a significant amount of nationalism, at least that was the impression it left me with, although to a degree that I found unpalatable for my needs. Not to say there's anything wrong with it, it just didn't really suit my tastes.
McEwans 03-18-08, 03:09 PM	I tend to run The Realms as classic high fantasy and run Eberron as a polictical intrigue cold war type campaign (using Dragonmarked houses like the Dune trading houses)
Old Sage 03-18-08, 08:26 PM	As for Lantan: It is mostly made up of humans. Gnomes are well-known there and definitely "visible", but they don't make up the bulk of the populace.Indeed. Despite all the gnomish-ness... Lantan still has a notable and significant human presence, who are mostly quite intuitive and capable of innovative technogical design on their own as members of Gond's faithful. The tinker-like aspect of the gnomes was the result of TSR bringing the concept of the tinker gnomes into the Realms, and also largely because Gond appeared [in the form of a gnome] on the island during the Time of Troubles.
Meldread 03-18-08, 10:58 PM	I actually like the Tinker aspect of the Gnomes of Lantan. It gives them a flavor that makes them unique from the other races in the setting. Look at Halflings, what 'theme' do they have? Untrustworthy naive thieves with wanderlust? :P
Dark Wizard 03-18-08, 11:52 PM	I actually like the Tinker aspect of the Gnomes of Lantan. It gives them a flavor that makes them unique from the other races in the setting. Look at Halflings, what 'theme' do they have? Untrustworthy naive thieves with wanderlust? :P Only the tall ones.
Zsych 03-19-08, 12:36 AM	Hmm.... I'd say that putting all that magic into Silverymoon but not making running water or street lights a major oversight by wizards too focussed on power to understand things that would benefit a common man. Even for wizards though, having basic needs automatically taken care of would leave them free to pursue more important things. ... What Silverymoon really needs is a spell to make eating and drinking unnecessary, handle the lighting and make the temperature remain comfortable :P
MarkusTay63 03-19-08, 02:42 AM	Indeed. Despite all the gnomish-ness... Lantan still has a notable and significant human presence, who are mostly quite intuitive and capable of innovative technogical design on their own as members of Gond's faithful.They may be in the minority, but they run the Church of Gond there, and the Church of Gond is the real power behind the Throne, so Lantan's got a bad case of 'Apartheid'. :P Also, the humans all look a little 'funny', ya know, like something isn't quite right about them..... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/borg2.gif :D ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-19-08, 11:18 AM	Look at Halflings, what 'theme' do they have? Untrustworthy naive thieves with wanderlust? :P I tend to think of them as little people with stout hearts.:) Of course they aren't all like that, but for me that's one of their themes.
dethmetal 03-19-08, 11:40 AM	I actually like the Tinker aspect of the Gnomes of Lantan. It gives them a flavor that makes them unique from the other races in the setting. Look at Halflings, what 'theme' do they have? Untrustworthy naive thieves with wanderlust? :P That's kender i've allways thought of halflings more as just lazy craftsmen.
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 06:38 PM	I hear about the racial conflicts in Faerun a lot, but honestly, I really don't see much of it. Stereotypes perhaps, and the PC games tend to play it up, but I really don't see much of it in print. Could have something to do with not reading novels though. -Another reason why Humans should have more "distinct" subraces in D&D, and in campaign settings. Calashite Human, Rashemi Human, and so on...Races of Faerūn has plenty of information about "Humans not liking other Humans", and so on. Tethyrians distrust Calashites, and vice-versa, for instance. Mulan Humans distrust Rashemi Humans, another example.
Stigger 03-19-08, 06:54 PM	Sorry, but in the context of the Realms, I don't see humans hating humans, especially with good reason, as racism... that's usually an extension of ethnicism and/or proto-nationalism. A gnome, that's a different race... but those are all just humans over there bashing each other with club. Can't tell them apart because they all look the same... ;)
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 07:10 PM	-Meh, it's all the same to me...
Stigger 03-19-08, 07:26 PM	Yeah, well, you're just some disembodied thingy floating around somewhere, so how would you know anyway? Just take my word for it... :P :D
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 09:38 PM	Yeah, well, you're just some disembodied thingy floating around somewhere, so how would you know anyway? Just take my word for it... :P :D -Yeah, it's probably better off to just listen to the Luminous One.
Stigger 03-20-08, 01:46 AM	Usually a wise course... though not always. Some things I just can't be objective about. :D
Alleran 03-20-08, 06:31 AM	I was skimming through my copy of Silver Marches today, and lo and behold, when I came to the entry for Silverymoon, it mentioned quite clearly that a dwarf-built system of pipes and cisterns allows for flushing toilets and running water.
Rauric 03-20-08, 06:58 AM	I figure (especially from the little things I picked up from the novels) that Sembians do not really like Cormyrans and the same goes for the Cormyrans. People from Luskan hate the Ruthym and the same goes for the Ruthym. People from Calisham look down on everyone. Silverymoon folk are probably more tolerant of all people (except Dark elves). Dalesfolk dislike Moonsea folk or at least distrust them and they probably distrust the Sembians also. That is all prejudice is, a form of distrust based off of past experiences and stereotypes. We can pre judge anyone or anything. Animals have instinct, humans have prejudice.
Stigger 03-20-08, 03:54 PM	Its a bit different there I think... there's an actual, relatively recent reason to dislike and distrust folk in most of those examples... except for Calimshan, but they're kind of an exception really, up there with the Thayan Mulan. The point is that if a Mooneye comes into the Dales, he's gonna get watched, but no one is going to refuse him service or beat him just for where he's from. There's a difference between keeping your guard up because people from <wherever> tend to make trouble, and being aggressive and demeaning to people from <wherever> just because they're from <wherever>... if you see my point.
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 12:34 AM	There's a difference between keeping your guard up because people from <wherever> tend to make trouble, and being aggressive and demeaning to people from <wherever> just because they're from <wherever>... if you see my point. -That's racism, though. Minor, but...
Stigger 03-21-08, 09:50 AM	I'd see it more as nationalism/regionalism more than racism.
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 01:09 PM	I'd see it more as nationalism/regionalism more than racism. -Nationalism/regionalism would be a subset of racism, in my opinion. After all, the people of your good country are better than those people, from that country. Look at them, those good for nothings. If they were more like the people in your country, maybe they'd have a better position in the world.
MarkusTay63 03-21-08, 04:08 PM	So, then you freely admit the Elves are the ULTIMATE racists? :smirk:
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 04:22 PM	So, then you freely admit the Elves are the ULTIMATE racists? :smirk: -When did I ever say they weren't racist? -Would they be the "ultimate" racists, though? No, I don't think so. I think the Yuan-Ti fall more along these lines.
MarkusTay63 03-21-08, 06:39 PM	No, the Yuan-ti find the 'lesser races' useful for certain things, like food, or genetic material. Elves, for the most part, don't find anyone but themselves of any use. After reading the Annotated Elminster recently, the stuff concerning Myth Drannor comes to mind. That city was actually one of the more open-minded and liberal, and yet nearly all (even the 'good' ones) Elves looked at humans as little more then animals. Elf Child: "Look mommy, a HUMAN!" Elf Mother: "Don'y touch it Timithiaa, its's dirty, and you'll get a disease." That pretty much sums up those Elves, and if they were that bad, can you imagine how much worse the original immigrants were? Probably what caused the entire problem - when they first arrived, nearly all humans were little more then animals. And because of their longevity, they still 'remember' that - Elves do not adjust their ways of thinking very quickly, and one of the biggest downfalls of that race is that they don't 'move forward' as fast as time does. On this train of thought - I really liked Craulnober's (sp?) 'epiphany' in the Waterdeep novel - instead of looking down at the human 'dredges' of the city, he realized he was actually one of their leaders. It was at that very moment that thousands of years of in-bread predjudice came crashing down around him, and he bacame just a little more 'human' because of it. IMHO, those are the GREAT moments of FR. not the uber-RSEs that take down parts of the world, but the subtle changes in the PEOPLE.
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 08:36 PM	No, the Yuan-ti find the 'lesser races' useful for certain things, like food, or genetic material. -Well, the fact that they apply the "lesser races" appelation to them shows that they are racist! That they seek to change them, in my mind, makes them worse. Elves don't necessarily like Humans, but as long as Humans stay there, and the Elves stay here, everyone is happy. On this train of thought - I really liked Craulnober's (sp?) 'epiphany' in the Waterdeep novel - instead of looking down at the human 'dredges' of the city, he realized he was actually one of their leaders. -I still haven't read that one. I have it in hardcover, and I hate reading hard covers. It was a nice, thoughtful birthday gift by my sister, but I really wish she would have waited. I only collect hard covers.
MarkusTay63 03-21-08, 09:13 PM	Read it - The Craulnober bits make the whole thing worth it. He realizes he has become a Lord of Waterdeep, even though he has always looked at it as sort of a 'prison'. There is also a wee-bit of Elvish Lore in there, concerning why he left Evermmeet (I think it was because of his failure to save King Zaor). Even though Amluiral doesn't feel he is a traitor, he has given himself that sentence, and is punishing himself with banishment. Real good stuff, and I usually dislike anything about Waterdeep. Blackstaff changed that. :)
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 09:17 PM	There is also a wee-bit of Elvish Lore in there, concerning why he left Evermmeet (I think it was because of his failure to save King Zaor). Even though Amluiral doesn't feel he is a traitor, he has given himself that sentence, and is punishing himself with banishment. -That story is told, in completeness, in a short story in Best of the Realms III: The Stories of Elaine Cunningham. It actually made me tear up.
MarkusTay63 03-22-08, 01:43 AM	I'll have to pick that up then... he seems to be 'mending his ways', albeit ever so slightly, after that novel. He showed mercy... something he hasn't done in years.... And don't feel 'girly' by that admission - it happens to me a lot (like in Blackstaff).
Alediran 03-22-08, 01:52 AM	Tue men are those who aren't affraid of crying. The rest are simply undead creatures who look like humans.
Zanan 03-22-08, 06:47 AM	As I just used a bit of that book, have a look at Silver Marches. There is a string of small adventures based around a town called Deadsnows. It, IMHO respresents an average FR town, removed from all the big movers and shakers. I tend to seperate the rich novel tradition of epic characters running about and being able to change the Realms to their liking and the adventures and campaigns, who tend to be more "modest". The good thing is that you get all of it within a very large setting and you are free to use it or leave it, just as it befits your campaign.
MarkusTay63 03-22-08, 01:13 PM	What Zanan says - ignore the novels, and you're much better off. They give a VERY false impression of the Realms. Plus, most of them aren't very good.... :rolleyes:
Stigger 03-22-08, 02:49 PM	-Nationalism/regionalism would be a subset of racism, in my opinion. After all, the people of your good country are better than those people, from that country. Look at them, those good for nothings. If they were more like the people in your country, maybe they'd have a better position in the world. Most of the time I think its more of a case of "I wish those punks over there would stop invading/trying to buy out/annoying us and just get along with the rest of the world" rather than a "good for nothing" attitude. The "good for nothing" attitude would be racism, I agree, but I was always left with the impression that the tension arose from actions, not some inherent quality of the people living in place X, hence more nationalism in my book.
Lord Karsus 03-22-08, 03:28 PM	I'll have to pick that up then... -It's worth every cent. It's loaded with great stories...The origins of the Knights of Samular, the revelation of the hows/whys of Elaith's exodus from Evermeet. It even has a story about your favorite Dark Elf. ;) The "good for nothing" attitude would be racism, I agree, but I was always left with the impression that the tension arose from actions, not some inherent quality of the people living in place X, hence more nationalism in my book. -Oftentimes, the two cross during wartime. Propaganda. Look at World War II, the Cold War, and so on.
MarkusTay63 03-22-08, 06:53 PM	Would have to go along with Stigger, I think. Not wanting 'outsiders' around you and yours is xenophobic... Traveling to the 'outsiders' to eradicate them is racist... not to mention genocidal... IMHO, its all a matter of how far you'll go out of your way to remove those you don't like from your life. If you just move to another neighborhood, then your merely a bigot. ;) -It's worth every cent. It's loaded with great stories...The origins of the Knights of Samular, the revelation of the hows/whys of Elaith's exodus from Evermeet. It even has a story about your favorite Dark Elf. ;) Cool! A story about Liriel Baenre! :D
Lord Karsus 03-22-08, 07:43 PM	Cool! A story about Liriel Baenre! :D -Yes, yes it does.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-22-08, 08:58 PM	-That story is told, in completeness, in a short story in Best of the Realms III: The Stories of Elaine Cunningham. It actually made me tear up. Really!:eek: That's neat.:) Although I wasn't quite so moved by that story as you were. I like Elaith, but I have to admit I've becoming a little bit tired of him, mainly because in some ways he seems as much a mopey, sad-sack navel-gazer as Drizzt is. Sure, he has a reason to be...but so does Drizzt. Either way, I've become a little impatient with it. Much like Markus I highly recommend the Waterdeep novel. I think that novel is great precisely because it shows "commoners" showing their stuff and being important characters (there is a rich tapestry of characters in that book).
Lord Karsus 03-22-08, 11:38 PM	Really!:eek: That's neat.:) Although I wasn't quite so moved by that story as you were. I like Elaith, but I have to admit I've becoming a little bit tired of him, mainly because in some ways he seems as much a mopey, sad-sack navel-gazer as Drizzt is. Sure, he has a reason to be...but so does Drizzt. Either way, I've become a little impatient with it. -I've always thought the story of Amnestria was incredibly tragic, and I took a liking to it early on. I was always under the assumption that the exact reasons and details why Elaith left Evermeet would be undisclosed forever. To see Amnestria and Elaith together, happy, and then to see the circumstances that led Bran to contacting Amnestria, concerning the deeds that Elaith was doing, was, to sound cliche, magical. And bittersweet, since, in the back of my mind, no matter who said what, I know the ultimate end (mostly) of all parties involved.
MarkusTay63 03-23-08, 01:52 AM	But there was that 'turning point' for him in the book Rinon, and I think, maybe, thats why you liked it. :) Its kind of cool when a 'villain' turns around and says "this place may be a s__thole, but its MY s__thole!" Reminds me of back in the day when the Earth was invaded in DC comics, and the villains fought alongside the heroes to stop it. Crime is one thing, but world domination doesn't help anybody. Thats what I felt when those 'cultists' were creeping about - they were not the usual threat to Waterdeep, that could be taken care of by the military; It required a more 'stealthy' touch. Plus it has Mirt - you gotta love mirt, especially since he was Ed's very first character, and you can feel the love he has for him when he writes.
Jiggawha 03-23-08, 09:08 AM	I like the novel, especially the gnome underground too much nobles can be annoying villains are nicely developed, tough it should have been something else than a monster cult
MarkusTay63 03-23-08, 09:16 AM	Yeah, the nobles were a bit over-the-top, but the rest of the cast was very interesting. Especially that girl who was blessed by Mystra, and could spin ANYTHING into cloth! :eek: Talk about your 'Pun-Pun abilities.... :cool:
Lord Karsus 03-23-08, 11:32 AM	Especially that girl who was blessed by Mystra, and could spin ANYTHING into cloth! :eek: -So, you are saying she could turn a trout into cloth?
Alediran 03-23-08, 11:41 AM	-Yes, yes it does. What's the story about?
Lord Karsus 03-23-08, 11:51 AM	What's the story about? -I don't remember. I just remember there was a story with Liriel in it, after the events of Windwalker.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-23-08, 08:42 PM	But there was that 'turning point' for him in the book Rinon, and I think, maybe, thats why you liked it. :) Its kind of cool when a 'villain' turns around and says "this place may be a s__thole, but its MY s__thole!" Yes, I definitely enjoyed the parts with Elaith. I think he's a cool character overall. But like I said, there's also a side of me that's a little impatient with him because of his aforementioned "sad sack" qualities. Then again, Elaith came off a bit creepy in that novel, too (in a good way--you didn't forget that he's really a villain). Plus it has Mirt - you gotta love mirt, especially since he was Ed's very first character, and you can feel the love he has for him when he writes. I do love Mirt, and I enjoyed his parts in the novel too.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-23-08, 08:44 PM	-I've always thought the story of Amnestria was incredibly tragic, and I took a liking to it early on. I was always under the assumption that the exact reasons and details why Elaith left Evermeet would be undisclosed forever. To see Amnestria and Elaith together, happy, and then to see the circumstances that led Bran to contacting Amnestria, concerning the deeds that Elaith was doing, was, to sound cliche, magical. And bittersweet, since, in the back of my mind, no matter who said what, I know the ultimate end (mostly) of all parties involved. I'm happy you had such a wonderful experience reading the book.:) It's always nice when a story feels magical (even if it's a cliche, who cares?). Reading Reformation is going to be bittersweet for me because it's probably the last time we'll get to read about many of these characters (unless they are picked up later by other authors).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-23-08, 08:49 PM	-So, you are saying she could turn a trout into cloth? Most likely... :) Regarding the Liriel story--it takes place after Liriel and friends (Thorn and Sharlarra) have become adventurers-for-hire working in Impiltur. Liriel has become a cleric of Mystra, and the story is about her coming to grips with the death of her dear friend (and whether or not she should do anything about it, if you catch my meaning). The action comes from the standard fare of a bunch of low-lifes picking a fight with Liriel and Co. as they are trying to eat lunch.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-23-08, 08:50 PM	villains are nicely developed, tough it should have been something else than a monster cult The monster cult was probably the only thing I didn't like about the novel, actually. I thought it was too weird for Greenwood or Cunningham--it read like something out of a Bruce Cordell story.
Lord Karsus 03-23-08, 09:07 PM	Reading Reformation is going to be bittersweet for me because it's probably the last time we'll get to read about many of these characters. -Probably. Most of them (Arilyn, Danillo) simply can't survive living an extra 100+ years, barring magic. The monster cult was probably the only thing I didn't like about the novel, actually. I thought it was too weird for Greenwood or Cunningham--it read like something out of a Bruce Cordell story. -It was something like the Church of the Amalgamation, or something to that effect?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-23-08, 09:09 PM	-Probably. Most of them (Arilyn, Danillo) simply can't survive living an extra 100+ years, barring magic. Yup. Gotta love the 4E Realms! -It was something like the Church of the Amalgamation, or something to that effect? Yes! Again, I liked the characters involved, but I thought the church was a too weird...it felt out of place to me. There wasn't much detail about it, either--the members worshipped "monster gods", but it doesn't go into the specifics (which I would have liked to learn).
Lord Karsus 03-23-08, 10:09 PM	There wasn't much detail about it, either--the members worshipped "monster gods", but it doesn't go into the specifics (which I would have liked to learn). -I'm sure, as it was one of their brainchild, that either Elaine or Ed can elaborate more, in their respective threads.
Old Sage 03-24-08, 01:04 AM	Ed and Elaine did discuss the Amalgamation somewhat when the book was released. Their replies are compiled at Candlekeep. And I know I've got a question for Ed pending on the group itself. And Elaine did also, at one point, consider writing a DRAGON article on the Amalgamation. 'Tis truly a shame that a lot of the Amalgamation subplot was cut from the novel. I think we all would've loved to have read more about them.
Alediran 03-24-08, 10:28 AM	Most likely... :) Regarding the Liriel story--it takes place after Liriel and friends (Thorn and Sharlarra) have become adventurers-for-hire working in Impiltur. Liriel has become a cleric of Mystra, and the story is about her coming to grips with the death of her dear friend (and whether or not she should do anything about it, if you catch my meaning). The action comes from the standard fare of a bunch of low-lifes picking a fight with Liriel and Co. as they are trying to eat lunch. Wow, fits withy my idea of Liriel after 1372 DR. I changed her stats to make her a Mystic Theurgee. Althoug I find her changing to Mystra a little odd.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 10:40 AM	Wow, fits withy my idea of Liriel after 1372 DR. I changed her stats to make her a Mystic Theurgee. Althoug I find her changing to Mystra a little odd. I don't, simply because she always loved magic, and was in truth always more of a wizard than a devotee of either Lolth or Eilistraee (according to Elaine, Liriel was in fact never actually a cleric of Eilistraee, just a lay follower).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 10:41 AM	-I'm sure, as it was one of their brainchild, that either Elaine or Ed can elaborate more, in their respective threads. Sage said it--questions have been posed to them about the Amalgamation Church, but neither Ed or Elaine have been able to say much at all about it yet.
MarkusTay63 03-24-08, 01:10 PM	'Tis truly a shame that a lot of the Amalgamation subplot was cut from the novel. I think we all would've loved to have read more about them.Maybe we can all hope for an anthology called - Realms of the Cultists :) Can you imagine each of the great FR writers doing a different one? That would be awsome!!! :dancin:
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 01:16 PM	Maybe we can all hope for an anthology called - Realms of the Cultists :) Can you imagine each of the great FR writers doing different one? That would be awsome!!! :dancin: -A sourcebook, Cults and Religions of the Realms would be awesome. Keep it 3e, to elaborate on the practices and structures of all of the religions on Faerūn, as well as monster and other cults.
MarkusTay63 03-24-08, 04:23 PM	Where I have hopes, you have dreams... 'Pipe Dreams'. :P The very lucrative novel division finding just one more way to milk the 'Realms of' template is entirely possible; the development of a religous-based sourcebook for ANY edition, let alone 3e, is never going to happen. At least not as long as D&D is part of Hasbro/WotC. :(
Green Elven Vampire 03-24-08, 04:33 PM	Eberron, FR, etc... etc... They're all going to the Nine Hells in a handbasket once 4ED comes out!
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 05:41 PM	Eberron, FR, etc... etc... They're all going to the Nine Hells in a handbasket once 4ED comes out! -Eberron isn't changing very much.
MarkusTay63 03-24-08, 09:03 PM	According to James Wyatt, there will be NO problem converting Eberron to 4e, and NO changes to the setting will be neccessary. Of course, that contradicts EVERYTHING the FR team has told us, but I suppose we are getting use to conradictions, eh? ;)
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 11:29 PM	Of course, that contradicts EVERYTHING the FR team has told us, but I suppose we are getting use to conradictions, eh? ;) -Yeah, what makes the spellcasting system of Eberron so much different from the spellcasting system of the Realms, such that the Weave (which is all fluff, and no mechanics) had to be destroyed? -I'm tellin' ya...
Stigger 03-25-08, 02:25 AM	So true... damn that Mystra...
Quale_ 03-25-08, 04:41 PM	one more question has anyone used both worlds, e.g. by replacing unwanted parts of the world with more interesting ones from the other?
Lord Karsus 03-25-08, 04:44 PM	has anyone used both worlds, e.g. by replacing unwanted parts of the world with more interesting ones from the other? -While I haven't, plenty of other people have, yes. Remember, large swaths of Abeir-Toril are not mapped out, and unknown. As long as it makes some sense, you can import a setting from another campaign setting, and just plop it in there.
MarkusTay63 03-25-08, 08:29 PM	I've placed Sharn on the Dragonmere coast, but I've yet to use it. I've also placed the 'Undying Elves' in Maztica - I figure the Scorpion-worshippers were a good fit there. I've used bits and pieces of various cultures, including the dino-riding Halflings (Shaar), the warforged (Bloodforged of the Utter east), The 'Druidic Orcs' for my Ondonti (Thar), Dragonmarks and Dragonmarked houses in Halruaa (but as tattoos and guilds), a Gnollish Kingdom that 'rents' mercenaries out (Veldorn), and my Pirates are a cross between the ones from the Lhazaar Principalities and the Sharde of the Iron Kingdoms setting. Now, seeing all that, you may wonder why I am so against change in the canon Realms... Its because MY REALMS doesn't effect anyone besides my players! And it most certainly does not destroy past lore just to make things easier on new players. :(
Lord Karsus 03-25-08, 08:53 PM	Now, seeing all that, you may wonder why I am so against change in the canon Realms... Its because MY REALMS doesn't effect anyone besides my players! -This is the main reason I've had so many "battles" with Mr. Misc, in the past. When I, let's say, criticised something in the canon, he'd talk about how, in his campaign, XYZ. As I've told him- in sometimes a nice way, depending on how angry I was with him, and sometimes in a less civil manner, depending on how angry I was with him.
selunatic2397 03-25-08, 10:42 PM	one more question has anyone used both worlds, e.g. by replacing unwanted parts of the world with more interesting ones from the other? My personal realms has a vast array of other continents, not just the main ones of the campaign setting.
MarkusTay63 03-26-08, 01:48 AM	I've also toyed with the idea of an 'Amalgam-world', with this as a starting point - http://www.geonomicon.com/portal/images/tabloid-FRGHplanet.gif In between the GH and FR continents, and down near the bottom (south), I picture the main continent of the Mystara setting flipped upside-down (so that now all those coastal countries face 'up' and toward FR/GH). Also, I picture the Iron Kindoms setting being the western end of the GH continent. With a few other large islands thrown in, like Melnibonea and Atlantis. ;) I suppose I could fit Eberron's main continent somewher between FR and GH on the other side of the globe (between Kara-Tur and the Iron Kingdoms). Oh.. and Xendrik and Taladas... I need my ancient Giant Ruins and Minotaur Kingdom. :D
Lord Karsus 03-26-08, 02:15 AM	-Of course, the Demiplane of Dread pops in every so often. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-26-08, 08:35 PM	Indeed, I'm not bothered by the changes people introduce into their versions of the Realms because it doesn't affect me. Changes to the published Realms DO affect consumers depending on what said consumers want from the setting. It's one thing to ignore changes you don't like, it's quite another to not get any more stories about character X, because that character was killed off to appease people who didn't like him, and WotC doesn't want to focus on dead character from the past.
Jiggawha 03-27-08, 02:42 PM	one more question has anyone used both worlds, e.g. by replacing unwanted parts of the world with more interesting ones from the other? yea, it's fun to combine such stuff in short, our Abeir-Toril is mostly 1370 DR canon version, except: Calimshan - a genasi realm Damara, Impiltur, parts of Vast, Vaasa, Narfell - demon cults are much more influential, less orderly, there's also something similar to Chaos Dwarves from Warhammer setting Chondath - replaced by Valenar Unther - Kamerel race, from Planescape, is the most numerous, Transcendent Order is the most influential there Mulhorand - Rilmani planetouched realm, later officially known as Tuladhara, from Planescape, majority of them are the Athar Chessenta - more swamps and lakes, Changelings (but with Bathrachi, FR origin), goblin, siv, and merrow realms, humans there aren't so similar to Greeks, not that obvious Dambrath - completely different, mostly jungle, settled with adu'ja, volodni, and Shifters (not with Eberron background, they honor Guardinals) Sespech is Luiren Kara Tur - smaller, Shou Lung, closer to Faerun, mostly where is Semphar, Var etc. Luiren - spill of Kara-Tur Spirit World, inhabitants: Nathri (Planescape) other continents and islands Aerenal - southeast of Luiren, descendants of southern Faerun green elves, abandoned by the Seldarine, ancestor worship, interesting to have Evermeet and Aerenal Zakhara - wasteland, desert, continent of the undead, ruled by exiled Shoonites, Twisted Rune, and other necromancers, thri-kreen Jergal worshippers, Doomguard (Planescape) drow Katashka (south of Maztica) and Maztica - is more like Warhammer Lustria, ruled by lizards and lizard-human hybrides Anchorome - replaced by Sarlona, tough less civilized, more desolate, Kalashtar are possessed/are channeling/binding beings from the Far Realm, plus aeree descendants, far to the north is Chaos (Abyssal rifts etc.) Osse is similar to Argonessen South of Zakhara - Xendrik, plus giant and titan realms in the far South I don't have Khorvaire, don't like it
MarkusTay63 03-27-08, 10:53 PM	Running Commentary... yea, it's fun to combine such stuff in short, our Abeir-Toril is mostly 1370 DR canon version, except: Calimshan - a genasi realm <thought about this... I think it'll happen> Damara, Impiltur, parts of Vast, Vaasa, Narfell - demon cults are much more influential, less orderly, there's also something similar to Chaos Dwarves from Warhammer setting <I LOVE you!!! SO using that> Chondath - replaced by Valenar <eh> Unther - Kamerel race, from Planescape, is the most numerous, Transcendent Order is the most influential there <No clue what a Kamerel is - What book?> Mulhorand - Rilmani planetouched realm, later officially known as Tuladhara, from Planescape, majority of them are the Athar <Have to think about that...> Chessenta - more swamps and lakes, Changelings (but with Bathrachi, FR origin), goblin, siv, and merrow realms, humans there aren't so similar to Greeks, not that obvious <definate potential there> Dambrath - completely different, mostly jungle, settled with adu'ja, volodni, and Shifters (not with Eberron background, they honor Guardinals) <Meh - I like Dambrath as is> Sespech is Luiren <Okaaaay...> Kara Tur - smaller, Shou Lung, closer to Faerun, mostly where is Semphar, Var etc. <Nah> Luiren - spill of Kara-Tur Spirit World, inhabitants: Nathri (Planescape) <Double nah> I'm REAL big on Kara-Tur and the East, so I like them the way they are (Geographically). other continents and islands Aerenal - southeast of Luiren, descendants of southern Faerun green elves, abandoned by the Seldarine, ancestor worship, interesting to have Evermeet and Aerenal <VERY Intersting...> :plotting: Zakhara - wasteland, desert, continent of the undead, ruled by exiled Shoonites, Twisted Rune, and other necromancers, thri-kreen Jergal worshippers, Doomguard (Planescape) drow <I Like! More like Warhammer's Tomb Kings> Katashaka (south of Maztica) and Maztica - is more like Warhammer Lustria, ruled by lizards and lizard-human hybrides <Maztica - I've done the same with the Lustrians; good call. I use Nyambe for Katashaka - excellent product> Anchorome - replaced by Sarlona, tough less civilized, more desolate, Kalashtar are possessed/are channeling/binding beings from the Far Realm, plus aeree descendants, far to the north is Chaos (Abyssal rifts etc.) <Again, Intersting... I'll have to consider this one> Osse is similar to Argonessen <Although I was going more for Australia, I can still use that> South of Zakhara - Xendrik, plus giant and titan realms in the far South <I replaced that very large island at the end of the Zakharan Chain with it> :D I don't have Khorvaire, don't like it <I use bits and pieces of the cultures, but nothing 'geographical'> Very, VERY nice... CHAOS DWARVES in the North east FTW!!! :dancin: http://www.warmongerclub.com/images/doompa/earthshk.jpg http://www.warmongerclub.com/images/doompa/bullcent.jpg Thanks for that wonderful idea.
Jiggawha 03-28-08, 04:03 PM	Running Commentary... Very, VERY nice... CHAOS DWARVES in the North east FTW!!! :dancin: :) not into Warhammer, my friends played it long time ago, was positively surprised when I accidentally read some of its background Chondath - replaced by Valenar <eh> it's not exactly Valenar, just some parts, without ancestor worship, much more ''civilized'', less martial, more arcane. Never liked Chondath much, so I've expanded Lyrandrar (sun elves from Chondalwood). <No clue what a Kamerel is - What book?> Tales from Infinite Staircase, they lived at the base of the Spire before Rilmani, who defeated them, they're passive TN, Rilmani are active TN. And Imaskari have history in Outlands ... Sespech is Luiren <Okaaaay...> also like Middle Earth Buckland