Post/Author/DateTime	Post
maddog0714 07-30-07, 05:15 PM	I see beings like elminster, Larloch and others who are hundreds of years old, but only 25th level or so. SHouldn't they be around 50th at least?
Lord Karsus 07-30-07, 06:07 PM	-Considering that you don't go out and "adventure" every single day, and that things like negative levels and such exist, no. Keep in note that knowledge, status, and all of those kinds of intangible things don't have to necessarily be reflected in level. For example, one of the most powerful NPCs in my setting is only 16th level or so.
Bonzai 07-30-07, 06:22 PM	Also keep in mind, that there isn't a lot to challenge you once you reach their level. If I remember right, El's CR was around 32 or so. At that point, he laughs at Balors and Colossal Wyrms. Even the Tarresque isn' that much of a challenge for him. Occasionally some other NPC might reach a level of power to make him sweat a little, but that would be a once in a century event or so. So without forsaking Toril and exploring the planes, taking on demi gods and such, he isn't going to be fighting all that much to get xp from. A seasoned adventurer is around lvl 5. An extremely powerfull individual may reach around lvl 10. The ultra powerful lord of an organization, or archwizard may be around 15th lvl. Anything past 20 is truley epic, and people tremble at the mere mention of their name.
GothicDan 07-30-07, 06:24 PM	Also note that they were statted under editions that had a much slower level of experience progression.
Elwyn_Sylveran 07-30-07, 09:01 PM	and they craft a whole lotta stuff, that costs XP
Elwyn_Sylveran 07-30-07, 09:02 PM	and as far as elminster goes, he was in stasis for a few hundred years as well, so he might not have been actively gaining levels for as long as you think.
Old Sage 07-30-07, 09:21 PM	Keep in mind, also, that much of the experience Elminster has gained, along with many of the skills he's learnt, through the long centuries of his life, aren't aspects of his character he can directly call upon anymore. From pg. 48 of the Heroes' Lorebook:- Elminster has been a fighter, a thief, and a priest (a priestess, actually) before he became a mage. However, all the skills he picked up in those classes have been neglected over the years and are no longer available to him.
GothicDan 07-30-07, 09:22 PM	In previous editions of D&D, crafting items didn't cost XP. So that has no bearing on their current levels.
Meldread 07-31-07, 12:29 AM	It depends on how things work in your Realm's really. If you tend toward the game being lower level with a less focus on powerful epic magic, then Elminster is roughly at his right level. If you are pushing things into the epic sphere, with a focus on high levels and such, then you're going to want to give him a boost. Generally speaking, if you are going in the latter direction Elminster should probably be somewhere around level 50, Larloch around his mid 70's and Ioulaum pushing into, if not already in his 90's. Deities and such should all be level 60+ with most greater gods being 100+ in level. Of course, that is moot if you want the PC's to be literally the most powerful people on the planet. If that is the case, then don't worry about it much. It shouldn't become a concern until your PC's hit their epic levels anyway. You only need to give them a power boost if they begin to get indirectly or directly involved with the PC's and you want to keep the power scale roughly even. (Meaning that you always want them to be able to smoke the PC's in a straight up battle.)
The Simbul 07-31-07, 01:26 AM	Elminster has 35 class levels, plus an undefined ECL adjustment from the Chosen of Mystra template. At the very minimum--and for purely the sake of this argument--we can assume he has at least an ECL of 39, though clearly the CR adjustment of almost any given template will be much lower than it's level adjustment, so 39 is a very lenient assumption. Thus, assuming his ECL is at least 39, Elminster would need to defeat a CR 32+ enemy, obstacle, or group encounter in order to gain XP, or perform some action that warrants a ad-hoc XP award. Outside of advanced monsters or unique NPCs the selection would be extremely slim, unless you start drawing on sources outside of the Monster Manual and Monster's of Faerun. After that, we then subtract a 20% XP penalty for his multiclassing, and then factor in 1,000+ years of XP lost in creating magic items, casting permanency, wish, or Elminster's evasion spells, and levels lost due to multiple previous deaths or negative levels. In fact, simply having a +4 inherent bonus to his INT score, having just a single casting of Elminster's evasion (FR version) active upon him, and paying the XP cost for creating Elminster's eversmoking pipe (arguably the most overpriced item in the game at 421,200gp) alone would cost the Sage of Shadowdale 39,212 XP points. If we assume his ECL is 39, then you basically lost one whole character level right there, and that does not take into account the numerous copies of his eversmoking pipe he has created and stashed elsewhere, the potentially thousands of previously cast and triggered Elminster's evasion spells, along with a vast arsenal of other magic items and magical wards he has created over the centuries. Moreover, virtually every 3E NPC has their levels based on their 2E versions. In AD&D the 29th level of the mage class required an obscene amount of XP points to achieve...so much so much so that many other classes could have achieved upwards of 40th level with the same amount of adventuring.
The_Shaman 08-07-07, 11:41 AM	I see beings like elminster, Larloch and others who are hundreds of years old, but only 25th level or so. SHouldn't they be around 50th at least? They may well be. Remember that in the game, it is the DM who sets what level NPCs are. The book is just a help, but you can mod as you see fit. You want a lvl 40 Elminster to send your level 28 epic party back to school? You got it. Elminster is one of those NPCs that act more like plot devices. Chances are, if there's a spell somewhere, El will have it. If the PCs have planned something big, he will know of it. If someone opposes him, they learn a lesson in humility. He might eventually be considered somewhat of an equal, but only a spellcaster along the lines of Azuth would be in a seriously bigger league than Elminster. Of course, if you as the DM are sick and tired of the Realms as Ed views them, and want to run a pre-epic campaign in which the PCs raze Shadowdale, put Elminster's head on a pike and make out with Storm, you can. It will be vastly different from my idea of the Realms, but who's to stop you?
Stigger 08-07-07, 02:57 PM	I contemplated some response to this, but it mostly just turned into a rant about the various XP costs of spellcasting and its related functions... suffice to say I'd be in favor of ditching those XP costs for spellcasting and item creation and stop trying to artificially handicap what should be the most powerful classes out there... sure it isn't fair or balanced, but who ever said life was...
MarkusTay63 08-07-07, 05:06 PM	Keep in mind, also, that much of the experience Elminster has gained, along with many of the skills he's learnt, through the long centuries of his life, aren't aspects of his character he can directly call upon anymore. From pg. 48 of the Heroes' Lorebook "Elminster has been a fighter, a thief, and a priest (a priestess, actually) before he became a mage. However, all the skills he picked up in those classes have been neglected over the years and are no longer available to him. "Let us not forget that he also had wild psionic talents in 1e. ;)
Derren S. 08-09-07, 09:35 AM	To be consistent everyone who is several hundered years old should be higher level than now. After all people can become level 20 in several years, maybe even months. So how do you explain that people who are several hundered years old are only slightly higher than lvl 20 or that 1000 year old dragons never leveled once in their lifetime? Either that or the leveling speed has to be slowed down dramatically so that it is a feat for a human to get higher than lvl 10 in his lifetime.
creyzi4zb12 08-09-07, 09:46 AM	Dragons are lazy, they're like geniuses who don't study coz they know they're a genius. And Elminster I think had the biggest adventures compared to any guy in Faerun, take note that his job was once to bring artifacts to certain dungeons to serve as a prize for adventurers...In other words he was always there before adventurers are.
Alleran 08-09-07, 10:36 AM	To be consistent everyone who is several hundered years old should be higher level than now. Aren't you the one who views statistics as being immutable and above all other designations of canon? Because it seems as though you're postulating that statistics can indeed be an incorrect way of measuring the strength (so to speak) of a particular character or characters.
DollNamedSanity 08-09-07, 11:11 AM	By the reasoning you are using (basing age as a measure of experience), you are assuming that elminster has always cared about attaining a greater measure of personal power. Yes a normal human or elf can attain 20+ levels within the span of a couple years if they had some REALLY hectic years (personally in my games if a person ever had such a meteoric rise in power they would be burned out babbling, shell-shocked shells). Maybe Elminster just didn't WANT to go out and slay things or find treasure, or whatnot. Being the head of the harpers is a full time job, and sitting around, casting divinations, and giving orders doesn't give much experience in my book. Tying together age and experience and power level makes about as much sense as saying "You're 20 now, why aren't you a world class singer? You've been singing since you were a kind weren't you?"
ShadezofDis 08-09-07, 11:23 AM	Because Elminster IS NOT weak. I'm of the opinion that 10th-15th level is about the highest level 95% of adventurers attain. Once you've reached those levels then the prime motivation for most adventurers, money, power, fame, has been achieved. They've probably gotten plenty of treasure, items, songs written about them, village folk who love them due to their defense of said villages, hob nobbed with the top of society, etc. Basically, the main difference between the NPCs of the world and your PCs (who are the ones who "sky rocket" in power) is that your PCs have outside motivation to keep going and this, in my opinion, is what has fulled the inflation of NPC levels in the Realms. I mean really, how many people here have PCs who've taken off a few months to relax and enjoy the spoils of their work? Stopping in town for a day or two in order to unload loot isn't really restful. As a DM, if my PCs keep going full till for tendays on end I'll give them a fatigued penalty due to the rough living they've been going through. Getting into 3-5 combats a tenday is exhausting, much less 3-5 combats a day. Sorry about that, I'll try not to rant so much next time. :)
Derren S. 08-09-07, 12:55 PM	By the reasoning you are using (basing age as a measure of experience), you are assuming that elminster has always cared about attaining a greater measure of personal power. Yes a normal human or elf can attain 20+ levels within the span of a couple years if they had some REALLY hectic years (personally in my games if a person ever had such a meteoric rise in power they would be burned out babbling, shell-shocked shells). Maybe Elminster just didn't WANT to go out and slay things or find treasure, or whatnot. Being the head of the harpers is a full time job, and sitting around, casting divinations, and giving orders doesn't give much experience in my book. Tying together age and experience and power level makes about as much sense as saying "You're 20 now, why aren't you a world class singer? You've been singing since you were a kind weren't you?" Double the amount of years it takes to become lvl 20 to represent a less hectic life if you want. But even when leveling twice or trice as slow the long lived NPCs, some of them several hundered or even thousand years old would have achieved a higher level than what they have. And your example is a bad one. Adventurers are exceptional individuals whose life depend on being powerful. They can't be compared to some hobby singer. Sure it can happen that a NPCs has enough and wants to retire, but most of the long lived NPCs in the realms haven't retired yet. ANd if they would have a level speed comparable to (lazy) PCs, they would be much higher leven than what they are. And when I post something like "Why aren't the high level NPCs doing the "saving the world/country/town thing instead of the lower level PCs" the answer I get most is "because they have to prevent a bigger threat". If that is so, then they are also earning XP for doing this.
ShadezofDis 08-09-07, 04:15 PM	And when I post something like "Why aren't the high level NPCs doing the "saving the world/country/town thing instead of the lower level PCs" the answer I get most is "because they have to prevent a bigger threat". If that is so, then they are also earning XP for doing this. Yep. And the biggest threats should happen once a decade AT MOST. More like once a century. Most of the "stopping the evil plots" they do involve sending out minions, pushing groups one way or another, or sabotaging spell research. Not blasting away.
dragonheart 08-09-07, 04:15 PM	And when I post something like "Why aren't the high level NPCs doing the "saving the world/country/town thing instead of the lower level PCs" the answer I get most is "because they have to prevent a bigger threat". If that is so, then they are also earning XP for doing this. They are - but! At the levels we are talking about the competitors are not weak - they are as powerful as the particular NPC yu chose to examine. Could El take Larloch - both accidentially pooping into the same place onthe planes of Raurin and going after the same artifact for different purposes and so having a confrontation outside their lairs - result - you pick the winner. So instead of this sort of activity where they would gain experience (but have a high risk of dieing) they send stooges - ooops :D I mean PCs out to get the artifact and let them battle it out. maybe several times as it switches back and forth between many groups. Same thing for most of the major epic (and many of the nonepic major) NPCs. because of this way of doing things they don't progress quickly normally (although I could see El gaining an entire level for his actions in El in Hell). So occasionally (rarely) something happens where they quickly pick up a level but most of the time they are only slowly generating those "ad hoc" Experience awards and leveling only very slowly what with item creation, adminstrivia and scouting/spying activity etc. - none of this is going to generate any significant experience but its all essential for him/them to do. The other side of this is where is the gold? whether Halaster or Elminster the creation of items and portals costs - lots - some of these guys realistically must be major landholders and share owners in costers and trading consortiums (probably on many worlds) to be regularly generating the sorts of wealth needed to do all this creation given that they are not adventuring. So where is Elminster when you "need him"? Probably down in Calimshan or Off planet checking up on his factors to make sure the wealth is still pouring in for the next few projects he has to get made for Mystra.:P
GothicDan 08-09-07, 04:37 PM	Ignore the 3E experience conventions when trying to make sense of the Realms. The vast majority of Realms characters were not created with them in mind.
Stigger 08-10-07, 04:19 AM	Well, the ones worth speaking of at any rate... :D
DollNamedSanity 08-10-07, 08:02 AM	I think another thing to consider at this point is, how much good is a couple of levels really going to give Elminster, especially compared to the threats he may face? What kind of stats might he gain that he doesn't already have? Hit points maybe but he's got plenty. Epic spells? You can only cast one of those for every 10 spellcasting levels you have, he'd have to gain quite a few levels for that to progress. I think he's powerful enough. He's got the Simbul as his lover (are they married now?) and she rules a country. He's the head of the harpers, speaks on a first name basis with Mystra, has raised a handful of the seven sisters and can call on favors from them, can waltz into Candlekeep if he feels like he wants to read a book without paying the fee, and can probably name and give the location of just about all the dragons of any power within a thousand miles of the Swoard Coast. Right now I don't think Elminster's greatest measure of power is in his levels or even his stats, it's in the life experience and the "DM discretion" bit in that he knows just about everything.
Alleran 08-10-07, 08:14 AM	Epic spells? You can only cast one of those for every 10 spellcasting levels you have, he'd have to gain quite a few levels for that to progress. It's the total you have in Knowledge [relevant skill] (one slot for every 10) that determines the number of epic spell slots you have, not spellcasting levels. El has 38 in Knowledge [arcana], so if he takes or has Epic Spellcasting (he doesn't in his statblock, though), then he'd have three slots for epic spells. He's got the Simbul as his lover (are they married now?) IIRC, one of the books in the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy mentioned that they had gone through some sort of ceremony, but I forget what exactly.
DollNamedSanity 08-10-07, 12:34 PM	Slight errata notice, it is his ranks, not his total skill that determines his epic spells, so going by the Epic Level Handbook stats (that was mentioned), subtract any feats and Int bonus to the knowledge skill, you're left with 30 ranks. Now with his 29 levels in wizard and Archmage, he could have 32 ranks, but that's not much closer to getting that fourth epic spell slot. All that aside, it just goes to prove my point; even if El had more levels, what honestly would it add to him? It would take about 8 more levels of an arcane spellcasting class for him to get just 1 more epic spell slot. His saves are all edging near 30, he has 369 hp, I mean, come on, honestly, what could be done to make him more powerful? Divine ranks maybe, but thats just not right.
dunehunter 08-10-07, 02:14 PM	My dm solved this problem quite easily...he slipped while walking out of his bathroom and broke his neck. Now his head is on a spike outside Zhentil Keep.
msatran 08-10-07, 02:41 PM	Heh. Well, if you have a thousand years of preparation time, and you're a wizard? Who cares what level you are. A million Earth Elementals appear outside his tower when you attack, each casting a contingent Orb of Force. Assuming that doesn't kill you, they grapple you to death. A million chunks of rock, each 400x400, fall from the sky when you attack him, even if you attack him indirectly or are on another plane when you do so. Make 100000 saves vs. Polymorph Any Object. You are transformed into a Delayed Blast Fireball, and so are all your friends. Elminster buys a new lawn chair, to replace the one he just burned down. You find yourself having killed a simulacrum. When the simulacrum dies, the 10000 staves of power inside break, having ended the contingent shrink item spell and activating the shatter. A 90 foot radius is destroyed. You are beyond dead. There are SO many ways for Elminster to kill you without ever casting a spell that day, that it really doesn't matter what you do. Rule one: NEVER ATTACK A 1000 year old archmage IN HIS HOUSE! Rule two: DON'T assume that the entire game exists for the benefit of the player characters. NPCs aren't stupid, nor are they tools to just sit there while you whomp on them, and the theme of the game.
Alleran 08-10-07, 10:59 PM	Slight errata notice, it is his ranks, not his total skill that determines his epic spells, so going by the Epic Level Handbook stats (that was mentioned), subtract any feats and Int bonus to the knowledge skill, you're left with 30 ranks. Now with his 29 levels in wizard and Archmage, he could have 32 ranks, but that's not much closer to getting that fourth epic spell slot. How was I incorrect? 38 in total, subtract everything, and he has 30. That's still three slots, which was what I said he had. I didn't say "total ranks", though, which might be why it's a bit unclear. All that aside, it just goes to prove my point; even if El had more levels, what honestly would it add to him? Depends on what levels he's given.
GothicDan 08-10-07, 11:05 PM	But what more could he do with more levels that he wasn't able to do before, which allows things that he's been known to do in lore/canon/novels, that he couldn't do under his current ruleset? Really, the ability for Wizards to freely create new spells is the true power under any archmage's belt in Faerun, including El.
Mr_Miscellany 08-11-07, 01:31 AM	I see beings like elminster, Larloch and others who are hundreds of years old, but only 25th level or so. SHouldn't they be around 50th at least?The rules system for Third Edition is vastly superior to 2E and prior, so it goes a long way towards detailing what we know about NPCs in game terms. But it's not complete, nor is it perfect. From a practical perspective, it's important to note that NPCs like Elminster or Larloch weren't run as characters in someone's game; they didn't 'advance' like PCs do, nor did they 'live' as PCs do. They're fictional characters in a fictional (read: literary, not just game system) setting. So while 3E may have 'given back' to Elminster his non-wizard abilities and class levels, 3E still can't (even with a Chosen Template added) account for Elminster's innate advantages gained from years in service to Mystra (knowledge of the secrets, defenses, failings, doings and desires of most any mage or magical being Mystra has bid him to interact with, as well as the means to slay or curtail same, should she desire such). A DM could account for these with circumstance modifiers, but that's something beyond the "what goes for PCs goes for NPCS motto" of the 3E rules set; thus you don't find rules for this in his write up. So I think El is about right where he's at in terms of stats. It’s up to a good Realms DM to make him kick. :)
Stigger 08-12-07, 11:03 AM	Good points MrM... Suppose his stats really don't matter much at all considering he's supposed to be a DM tool in actual play... though he's really a very poor example of how to build an epic character if someone is looking for such. ;)