Just how insane is Halaster? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Just how insane is Halaster? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Terraneaux
03-14-07, 01:49 PM I'm not too familiar with the character if he was mentioned in novels or 2e sources I really wouldn't know. For those of you freaks (in a good way, honest) that know more about FR than any mortal should know, how much/in what way is he insane? I know it has to do with him being in Undermountain, and outside of it he's okay (as okay mentally as an epic level chaotic evil archmage can be), but his picture in the ELH brings to mind a crazy, talks to himself hobo/archmage. Is it a subtle madness that one would only get a hint of after talking to him for a while, or does he mutter/talk to himself constantly? Is he barely coherent, or deadly capable with his madness?
Wizard56
03-14-07, 02:42 PM He's deadly capable. Apparently, he has has periods where he's quite lucid as well.
Renvale999
03-14-07, 03:02 PM Inside Undermountain, he's Chaotic Evil and relatively insane (although he still has flashes of brillance). Outside Undermountain, he's Chaotic Neutral and relatively sane. Personally, I play as though he's the evil genius he ought to be.
Red_Wizard
03-14-07, 03:45 PM To the best of my knowledge his insanity was purged by Mystra in the novel "Elminster in Hell".
GothicDan
03-14-07, 04:23 PM Well, the magical/supernatural part of it was, at least.... I don't think he could come out of the ordeal without being a little 'messed up' still.
Mulan Rogue
03-14-07, 04:52 PM Halaster is as ‘insane’ as any good deus ex machine needs to be. ;)
dragonheart
03-14-07, 06:50 PM Following Elmisnter in Hell Halaster is CN both in and out of Undermountain.While no epic level archmage can be considered truely sane Halaster is no longer considered to be in the looney bin by his fellow epic archmages. However he is still a touch twisted when in in Undermountain but is not nearly as bad as he was before. treat him as the genuis level effectively eternal archmage with his own (hidden) agenda that he is and you should do fine playing him. given his level unless your PCs are also epic they are really beneath his notice unless they force themselves into his prescence so he is likely to be a bit startled by their presumption and really more intent on getting back to his own work than he is on dealing with them. That distractredness can appear to be crazyness since he is likely to reminding himself of what he was doing and where he was going etc through out the entire interaction. That can make it a great way to pass on hints and foreshadowings amidst the nonesense and see how good yoru PCs are at picking the gold out of the dross.
Old Sage
03-14-07, 08:08 PM We know Halaster can slip back into his periods of insanity every now and then... but it's nothing compared to what he experienced before the purging of the influence from Shar.

What scares me is what Ed, Eric or Steven can *do* with a SANE Halaster!
The_Shaman
03-16-07, 08:43 AM It's... unpleasant. However, what they can do with Larloch or Ioulaum - that really makes me go "gulp." Still, I don't know whether whatever there was in Undermountain isn't enough to make him unstable at the least. Maybe not evil, just... very tricky to be near.
Stigger
03-16-07, 09:01 AM Larloch I'd be very, very, very worried about... Ioulaum I have a hard time taking seriously... how much can he really pull off sitting in a big briny pool as a big petri-dished brain? I mean it's just silly... like something out of the Simpsons.
The_Shaman
03-16-07, 04:17 PM Well, while he's it, maybe... But an epic wizard/psion/lich/whatever can do a lot, lot more than just change his shape. Would you take him seriously if he were to decide he wants to spend the next few aeons as a dracolich?

As for Larloch, I'm quite surprised half of Faerun's epic mages can sleep at night. BTW, I heard he has become interested in Szass Tam, is that true?
Red_Wizard
03-16-07, 06:06 PM Beyond their alliance, and seemingly good friendship?
Stigger
03-16-07, 08:24 PM Yeah, I probably would take him more seriously... but a big immobile brain isn't that threatening to me. Nothing a can of Morton's salt couldn't seriously mess up... :D
The Simbul
03-16-07, 10:34 PM Unless you are employing some variant rule, or interpreting insanity as a character trait as being akin to the spell of the same name (which is absurd), then "insanity" as a NPC trait won't diminish or enhance the deadliness of a character in a D&D game session.

It can however serve as a half-hearted attempt to explain the "insanity" of the decision that the only AC boosting item Halaster would be written in as typically employing would be a ring of protection +5. Wow...a challenge rating of 30 and an AC of 19....yet another example where the DM has to either misrepresent numbers and/or make ad-hoc alterations to keep an otherwise climatic NPC villain from looking like roadkill on the battle map.
Stigger
03-17-07, 01:35 AM Be fair now Simbul, it's not like Halaster is unique in that... everyone is built with roadkill in mind as far as I could tell, so at least he's in good company. Just think of it as discouraging people to min-max since they hardly need to if they want to compete with the high and mighty. :D
Zsych
03-17-07, 06:35 AM I think I'd describe him as mostly having a short attention span and getting annoyed quickly when someone is distracting him whatever he's focussing on.
(at least, that's how I would've described him before. I don't really know what he's like since Mystra partially fixed him.. she did say that she couldn't really cure his insanity, but could give him some means that may allow him a better chance at fixing it himself)

I think his mental focus is split between what his clones in Undermountain are doing.
The_Shaman
03-17-07, 12:14 PM Beyond their alliance, and seemingly good friendship?

I had heard of an alliance, but wasn't sure about it. That can't be good for a whole lot of people (and demihumans). But friends? Oh my. I wonder what would happen if Szass gets in trouble and Larloch decides to offer a hand (both are unlikely enough, but still)...
Zsych
03-18-07, 06:54 AM Larloch like many of the greater evil powers of Faerun, doesn't actually do anything in Faerun for the most part, so the alliance doesn't really matter, except for what little knowledge, or random magical artifact may end up in Szass Tam's hands thanks to it.

... Larloch is kinda useless in that even your average epic-PC can't really afford to go near him with a decent chance of coming back alive.
(of course, the PCs could bring magical gifts and be completely unviolent, but you would have to know that that is an option first).
Red_Wizard
03-18-07, 10:34 AM I had heard of an alliance, but wasn't sure about it. That can't be good for a whole lot of people (and demihumans). But friends? Oh my. I wonder what would happen if Szass gets in trouble and Larloch decides to offer a hand (both are unlikely enough, but still)...

Well considering for favours rendered, Larloch gave Szass two artifacts, one being the death moon orb, and the other Thakorsil's seat, both which he used to bind Eltabb with, i'd say that should he need it, Larloch might just be available to render assistance.

Scary prospects though.
Stigger
03-18-07, 01:10 PM Depends on what Szass had to give up to get those... or if he's got one nasty price looming over his head like a certain sword.
Red_Wizard
03-18-07, 02:05 PM Depends on what Szass had to give up to get those... or if he's got one nasty price looming over his head like a certain sword.

I believe he brings Larloch magic items that he is looking for, but doesn't want to find, or can't find himself.
Stigger
03-19-07, 12:12 AM Raise hands, who else thinks Tam is getting shafted in the end? :D
Dark_beebles
03-20-07, 02:18 AM One thing i want to have happen is the Shade Enclave Learn about Larloch. They want all the netheril knowledge...and find the decendents and capture them willingly or not.

We know Tam is trading with Larloch, However in the LoD he is trying to find info and trade with the Shade Enclave. So If Telamont finds out about larloch somehow....wonder what would happen..

I am sure Larloch knows about the Shade Enclave being so close to Waterdeep, and probably was listening or saw the gates being used by Evermeet to waterdeep during the war. So who knows what might come to pass if they learn about each other...2 of the 3 most powerful mages on FR duking it out sure would be a great book to read about. Been thinking about that ever since i read the lords of darkness book.

Also, Ioulum aint immobile..he is a epic..no he is beyond epic mage. He can fly, teleport, astral project, planar travel, Major jar so he is hardly immobile. And Elderbrains can move, look at their stats in the Lords of Madness..They can fly and swim. Hardly immobile...they just dont have a reason to move.
Stigger
03-20-07, 04:21 AM Never picked up Lords of Madness actually... just didn't appeal to me as I hardly ever use aberrations in my games. But still... it's a big brain! Sure he's powerful, sure he's mobile... but he's out of his mind too... or too far into it if you want to look at it that way. I mean a lich makes sense I suppose... but turning yourself into a big brain in a pool is just... well, insane. I know he's supposed to be uber and all, and stat wise probably is, but I just can't quite come to terms with someone who would do that to themselves being anything but stark raving mad in a mostly non-functional way.
Red_Wizard
03-20-07, 10:30 AM Never picked up Lords of Madness actually... just didn't appeal to me as I hardly ever use aberrations in my games. But still... it's a big brain! Sure he's powerful, sure he's mobile... but he's out of his mind too... or too far into it if you want to look at it that way. I mean a lich makes sense I suppose... but turning yourself into a big brain in a pool is just... well, insane. I know he's supposed to be uber and all, and stat wise probably is, but I just can't quite come to terms with someone who would do that to themselves being anything but stark raving mad in a mostly non-functional way.

His knowledge and power couldn't be properly contained, or advanced any further in his feeble human mind, so he went for something far superior mentally. I think it is definitely an interesting step up, given his age, and wish to live forever. Not to mention the lack of need of a body, when you are 41st level. I mean, what can a wizard hope to gain by having a body, with a mind as powerful as his.
brandonyates81
03-21-07, 12:57 AM lets just say that if halaster was real, he would offer you carrot cake for no reason
Stigger
03-21-07, 01:39 AM His knowledge and power couldn't be properly contained, or advanced any further in his feeble human mind, so he went for something far superior mentally. I think it is definitely an interesting step up, given his age, and wish to live forever. Not to mention the lack of need of a body, when you are 41st level. I mean, what can a wizard hope to gain by having a body, with a mind as powerful as his.

I guess that's one way of looking at it... not the way I look at it, but valid nonetheless, and probably better from a gaming perspective. But I'm not a big believer in sheerly mental existances as being a desireable thing in the slightest. It's complicated I suppose, my point of view on the matter. And probably best left unsaid. :)
The_Shaman
03-21-07, 07:37 AM @Stigger: remember how in CAdv it talked about MoMFs starting to have a different personality? I think that's what's happening with Ioulaum. When you've been an arch-archmage for millenia, I suppose you just don't think of any form as yours... Your form is whatever you will it to be at the moment.

Still, I wonder what his spellbook looks like. Even just visually, it must be something darned weird.
Stigger
03-21-07, 08:48 AM Yeah, I know... but personally I find polymorphing type spells to be very distasteful for some reason. Don't know if I even have a good reason actually, beyond just be disturbed by it.
Red_Wizard
03-21-07, 11:25 AM Yeah, I know... but personally I find polymorphing type spells to be very distasteful for some reason. Don't know if I even have a good reason actually, beyond just be disturbed by it.

Probably for the same reason lieutenant Barkley doesn't like the Transporters (An analogy for any Trek fans:P). There is always the thought that you may never be you again. ;)
Terraneaux
03-21-07, 02:40 PM But polymorphing is like the opposite of transporting- the transporter dealie creates something that looks like you but may not actually be you, whereas a polymorph spell makes something which hella doesn't look like you but actually *is* you.

And teleport spells in DnD don't really work that way either, because you are actually moved through the astral plane, not taken apart and reassembled.
Red_Wizard
03-21-07, 07:16 PM But polymorphing is like the opposite of transporting- the transporter dealie creates something that looks like you but may not actually be you, whereas a polymorph spell makes something which hella doesn't look like you but actually *is* you.

And teleport spells in DnD don't really work that way either, because you are actually moved through the astral plane, not taken apart and reassembled.

Not so, you are shifting your entire form into something else, that it was never supposed to be. Who's to say everything is back to normal when you switch back?

Just like both methods are possible in trasnporting. Either the system is able to actually break down your body into the energy it really is, and via scanning properly put it back together after being sent via signal to the new location, or the method in practise now is the only achievable reality of it, where the genetic ID number is scanned, and printed on the new atom.
Stigger
03-22-07, 03:19 AM Oddly, teleportation doesn't bother me... Transporters though, you'd never get me into one, even if my life depended on it. Just too creepy. Think I've got a few issues to work through come to think of it. :D
Red_Wizard
03-22-07, 11:28 AM Oddly, teleportation doesn't bother me... Transporters though, you'd never get me into one, even if my life depended on it. Just too creepy. Think I've got a few issues to work through come to think of it. :D

I agree. I'm torn between the speed of travel, and the concept of a clone of myself.....I lean more to avoiding it, as I like the real me just fine:P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Terraneaux 03-14-07, 01:49 PM	I'm not too familiar with the character if he was mentioned in novels or 2e sources I really wouldn't know. For those of you freaks (in a good way, honest) that know more about FR than any mortal should know, how much/in what way is he insane? I know it has to do with him being in Undermountain, and outside of it he's okay (as okay mentally as an epic level chaotic evil archmage can be), but his picture in the ELH brings to mind a crazy, talks to himself hobo/archmage. Is it a subtle madness that one would only get a hint of after talking to him for a while, or does he mutter/talk to himself constantly? Is he barely coherent, or deadly capable with his madness?
Wizard56 03-14-07, 02:42 PM	He's deadly capable. Apparently, he has has periods where he's quite lucid as well.
Renvale999 03-14-07, 03:02 PM	Inside Undermountain, he's Chaotic Evil and relatively insane (although he still has flashes of brillance). Outside Undermountain, he's Chaotic Neutral and relatively sane. Personally, I play as though he's the evil genius he ought to be.
Red_Wizard 03-14-07, 03:45 PM	To the best of my knowledge his insanity was purged by Mystra in the novel "Elminster in Hell".
GothicDan 03-14-07, 04:23 PM	Well, the magical/supernatural part of it was, at least.... I don't think he could come out of the ordeal without being a little 'messed up' still.
Mulan Rogue 03-14-07, 04:52 PM	Halaster is as ‘insane’ as any good deus ex machine needs to be. ;)
dragonheart 03-14-07, 06:50 PM	Following Elmisnter in Hell Halaster is CN both in and out of Undermountain.While no epic level archmage can be considered truely sane Halaster is no longer considered to be in the looney bin by his fellow epic archmages. However he is still a touch twisted when in in Undermountain but is not nearly as bad as he was before. treat him as the genuis level effectively eternal archmage with his own (hidden) agenda that he is and you should do fine playing him. given his level unless your PCs are also epic they are really beneath his notice unless they force themselves into his prescence so he is likely to be a bit startled by their presumption and really more intent on getting back to his own work than he is on dealing with them. That distractredness can appear to be crazyness since he is likely to reminding himself of what he was doing and where he was going etc through out the entire interaction. That can make it a great way to pass on hints and foreshadowings amidst the nonesense and see how good yoru PCs are at picking the gold out of the dross.
Old Sage 03-14-07, 08:08 PM	We know Halaster can slip back into his periods of insanity every now and then... but it's nothing compared to what he experienced before the purging of the influence from Shar. What scares me is what Ed, Eric or Steven can do with a SANE Halaster!
The_Shaman 03-16-07, 08:43 AM	It's... unpleasant. However, what they can do with Larloch or Ioulaum - that really makes me go "gulp." Still, I don't know whether whatever there was in Undermountain isn't enough to make him unstable at the least. Maybe not evil, just... very tricky to be near.
Stigger 03-16-07, 09:01 AM	Larloch I'd be very, very, very worried about... Ioulaum I have a hard time taking seriously... how much can he really pull off sitting in a big briny pool as a big petri-dished brain? I mean it's just silly... like something out of the Simpsons.
The_Shaman 03-16-07, 04:17 PM	Well, while he's it, maybe... But an epic wizard/psion/lich/whatever can do a lot, lot more than just change his shape. Would you take him seriously if he were to decide he wants to spend the next few aeons as a dracolich? As for Larloch, I'm quite surprised half of Faerun's epic mages can sleep at night. BTW, I heard he has become interested in Szass Tam, is that true?
Red_Wizard 03-16-07, 06:06 PM	Beyond their alliance, and seemingly good friendship?
Stigger 03-16-07, 08:24 PM	Yeah, I probably would take him more seriously... but a big immobile brain isn't that threatening to me. Nothing a can of Morton's salt couldn't seriously mess up... :D
The Simbul 03-16-07, 10:34 PM	Unless you are employing some variant rule, or interpreting insanity as a character trait as being akin to the spell of the same name (which is absurd), then "insanity" as a NPC trait won't diminish or enhance the deadliness of a character in a D&D game session. It can however serve as a half-hearted attempt to explain the "insanity" of the decision that the only AC boosting item Halaster would be written in as typically employing would be a ring of protection +5. Wow...a challenge rating of 30 and an AC of 19....yet another example where the DM has to either misrepresent numbers and/or make ad-hoc alterations to keep an otherwise climatic NPC villain from looking like roadkill on the battle map.
Stigger 03-17-07, 01:35 AM	Be fair now Simbul, it's not like Halaster is unique in that... everyone is built with roadkill in mind as far as I could tell, so at least he's in good company. Just think of it as discouraging people to min-max since they hardly need to if they want to compete with the high and mighty. :D
Zsych 03-17-07, 06:35 AM	I think I'd describe him as mostly having a short attention span and getting annoyed quickly when someone is distracting him whatever he's focussing on. (at least, that's how I would've described him before. I don't really know what he's like since Mystra partially fixed him.. she did say that she couldn't really cure his insanity, but could give him some means that may allow him a better chance at fixing it himself) I think his mental focus is split between what his clones in Undermountain are doing.
The_Shaman 03-17-07, 12:14 PM	Beyond their alliance, and seemingly good friendship? I had heard of an alliance, but wasn't sure about it. That can't be good for a whole lot of people (and demihumans). But friends? Oh my. I wonder what would happen if Szass gets in trouble and Larloch decides to offer a hand (both are unlikely enough, but still)...
Zsych 03-18-07, 06:54 AM	Larloch like many of the greater evil powers of Faerun, doesn't actually do anything in Faerun for the most part, so the alliance doesn't really matter, except for what little knowledge, or random magical artifact may end up in Szass Tam's hands thanks to it. ... Larloch is kinda useless in that even your average epic-PC can't really afford to go near him with a decent chance of coming back alive. (of course, the PCs could bring magical gifts and be completely unviolent, but you would have to know that that is an option first).
Red_Wizard 03-18-07, 10:34 AM	I had heard of an alliance, but wasn't sure about it. That can't be good for a whole lot of people (and demihumans). But friends? Oh my. I wonder what would happen if Szass gets in trouble and Larloch decides to offer a hand (both are unlikely enough, but still)... Well considering for favours rendered, Larloch gave Szass two artifacts, one being the death moon orb, and the other Thakorsil's seat, both which he used to bind Eltabb with, i'd say that should he need it, Larloch might just be available to render assistance. Scary prospects though.
Stigger 03-18-07, 01:10 PM	Depends on what Szass had to give up to get those... or if he's got one nasty price looming over his head like a certain sword.
Red_Wizard 03-18-07, 02:05 PM	Depends on what Szass had to give up to get those... or if he's got one nasty price looming over his head like a certain sword. I believe he brings Larloch magic items that he is looking for, but doesn't want to find, or can't find himself.
Stigger 03-19-07, 12:12 AM	Raise hands, who else thinks Tam is getting shafted in the end? :D
Dark_beebles 03-20-07, 02:18 AM	One thing i want to have happen is the Shade Enclave Learn about Larloch. They want all the netheril knowledge...and find the decendents and capture them willingly or not. We know Tam is trading with Larloch, However in the LoD he is trying to find info and trade with the Shade Enclave. So If Telamont finds out about larloch somehow....wonder what would happen.. I am sure Larloch knows about the Shade Enclave being so close to Waterdeep, and probably was listening or saw the gates being used by Evermeet to waterdeep during the war. So who knows what might come to pass if they learn about each other...2 of the 3 most powerful mages on FR duking it out sure would be a great book to read about. Been thinking about that ever since i read the lords of darkness book. Also, Ioulum aint immobile..he is a epic..no he is beyond epic mage. He can fly, teleport, astral project, planar travel, Major jar so he is hardly immobile. And Elderbrains can move, look at their stats in the Lords of Madness..They can fly and swim. Hardly immobile...they just dont have a reason to move.
Stigger 03-20-07, 04:21 AM	Never picked up Lords of Madness actually... just didn't appeal to me as I hardly ever use aberrations in my games. But still... it's a big brain! Sure he's powerful, sure he's mobile... but he's out of his mind too... or too far into it if you want to look at it that way. I mean a lich makes sense I suppose... but turning yourself into a big brain in a pool is just... well, insane. I know he's supposed to be uber and all, and stat wise probably is, but I just can't quite come to terms with someone who would do that to themselves being anything but stark raving mad in a mostly non-functional way.
Red_Wizard 03-20-07, 10:30 AM	Never picked up Lords of Madness actually... just didn't appeal to me as I hardly ever use aberrations in my games. But still... it's a big brain! Sure he's powerful, sure he's mobile... but he's out of his mind too... or too far into it if you want to look at it that way. I mean a lich makes sense I suppose... but turning yourself into a big brain in a pool is just... well, insane. I know he's supposed to be uber and all, and stat wise probably is, but I just can't quite come to terms with someone who would do that to themselves being anything but stark raving mad in a mostly non-functional way. His knowledge and power couldn't be properly contained, or advanced any further in his feeble human mind, so he went for something far superior mentally. I think it is definitely an interesting step up, given his age, and wish to live forever. Not to mention the lack of need of a body, when you are 41st level. I mean, what can a wizard hope to gain by having a body, with a mind as powerful as his.
brandonyates81 03-21-07, 12:57 AM	lets just say that if halaster was real, he would offer you carrot cake for no reason
Stigger 03-21-07, 01:39 AM	His knowledge and power couldn't be properly contained, or advanced any further in his feeble human mind, so he went for something far superior mentally. I think it is definitely an interesting step up, given his age, and wish to live forever. Not to mention the lack of need of a body, when you are 41st level. I mean, what can a wizard hope to gain by having a body, with a mind as powerful as his. I guess that's one way of looking at it... not the way I look at it, but valid nonetheless, and probably better from a gaming perspective. But I'm not a big believer in sheerly mental existances as being a desireable thing in the slightest. It's complicated I suppose, my point of view on the matter. And probably best left unsaid. :)
The_Shaman 03-21-07, 07:37 AM	@Stigger: remember how in CAdv it talked about MoMFs starting to have a different personality? I think that's what's happening with Ioulaum. When you've been an arch-archmage for millenia, I suppose you just don't think of any form as yours... Your form is whatever you will it to be at the moment. Still, I wonder what his spellbook looks like. Even just visually, it must be something darned weird.
Stigger 03-21-07, 08:48 AM	Yeah, I know... but personally I find polymorphing type spells to be very distasteful for some reason. Don't know if I even have a good reason actually, beyond just be disturbed by it.
Red_Wizard 03-21-07, 11:25 AM	Yeah, I know... but personally I find polymorphing type spells to be very distasteful for some reason. Don't know if I even have a good reason actually, beyond just be disturbed by it. Probably for the same reason lieutenant Barkley doesn't like the Transporters (An analogy for any Trek fans:P). There is always the thought that you may never be you again. ;)
Terraneaux 03-21-07, 02:40 PM	But polymorphing is like the opposite of transporting- the transporter dealie creates something that looks like you but may not actually be you, whereas a polymorph spell makes something which hella doesn't look like you but actually is you. And teleport spells in DnD don't really work that way either, because you are actually moved through the astral plane, not taken apart and reassembled.
Red_Wizard 03-21-07, 07:16 PM	But polymorphing is like the opposite of transporting- the transporter dealie creates something that looks like you but may not actually be you, whereas a polymorph spell makes something which hella doesn't look like you but actually is you. And teleport spells in DnD don't really work that way either, because you are actually moved through the astral plane, not taken apart and reassembled. Not so, you are shifting your entire form into something else, that it was never supposed to be. Who's to say everything is back to normal when you switch back? Just like both methods are possible in trasnporting. Either the system is able to actually break down your body into the energy it really is, and via scanning properly put it back together after being sent via signal to the new location, or the method in practise now is the only achievable reality of it, where the genetic ID number is scanned, and printed on the new atom.
Stigger 03-22-07, 03:19 AM	Oddly, teleportation doesn't bother me... Transporters though, you'd never get me into one, even if my life depended on it. Just too creepy. Think I've got a few issues to work through come to think of it. :D
Red_Wizard 03-22-07, 11:28 AM	Oddly, teleportation doesn't bother me... Transporters though, you'd never get me into one, even if my life depended on it. Just too creepy. Think I've got a few issues to work through come to think of it. :D I agree. I'm torn between the speed of travel, and the concept of a clone of myself.....I lean more to avoiding it, as I like the real me just fine:P