Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OverworkedDm 06-06-07, 10:45 AM	I have a quick question for all of you scholars and sages of the realms. In the underdark, and in the silver marches kaanyr vhok is listed as fighter7/rogue2/wizard6, but in power of faerun he is listed as fighter16/sorcerer6. I am interested in running a campaign with vhok as the main antagonist, so I was curious which stats to use. Also any info about vhok would be much appreciated.
ClobberinTime 06-06-07, 03:55 PM	I think the Canon stats are the first set, and the ones in PoF specifically beef him up in case you need an epic villain for your PCs.
Realms Walker 06-06-07, 06:42 PM	The first set seems more believeable if you allow novels to guide your campaigns. Vok in the novels I have read so far seemed kinda weak in my opinion. Nothing like I expected a leader of a Huge Demonic Mercenary legion to be.
Dxzauvrinn 06-07-07, 12:31 AM	Well, Power of Faerun is the newest book of the three so I'd say go with that, but like you said, he doesn't seem that powerful in the novels. Also, since cambions and marquis cambions have made a return to 3rd edition in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, I'd make him a marquis cambion instead of a typical half-fiend since that's what he originally was in 2ed. He displays cambion powers in the Gossamer Plain anyway.
Zanan 06-07-07, 04:03 AM	The chap made his (AFAIK) first appearance in Hellgate Keep, where he simply was a marquis cambion. No idea where these 16 fighter levels came from though. You'd have to remember that the troops he leads are still not that terrible compared to his demonic powers. Furthermore, people need not to have martial prowess or class levels to lead an army. If he gets his tactics right and serves up with the goods, a Aristocrat 5 can lead an army of 10th-level officers and 5th level soldiers without much problem.
Red_Wizard 06-07-07, 11:37 AM	Vhok makes his latest appearance as a lead character in the novel Gossamer plain. Based on that, I'd say his earlier SM stats reflect his process much better.
Realms Walker 06-09-07, 05:39 PM	Zanan you are correct. You need not have Tremendous powers to lead a army whether it be magical or Martial BUT Vok leads a legion of Demon blooded creatures and he supposedly killed his mother who was a Maralith for sed leadership. But in the novels he seemed barely able to carry the water for a low level grunt in most campaign worlds. Little bit of a exageration but he seemed to be often outclassed and just lucky enough to get out of the situations he was in. Never really showed any form of dominance in my opinion and I include intellect wise or Martially/Magically. I wonder if my opinion though is influenced by the current novel climate. It seems every novel now a days has to have a Character who can best a god or atleast a army single handed.
msatran 06-09-07, 11:32 PM	Well, my advice is build him yourself. My Khannyr Vhok looks like this, given all available options. Half Fiend (Which is what Cambion was really Meant to be) Fighter 2/Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Knight 10/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5. It's the same 22 levels, it's just more horrible given what your PC's will likely design. Is he CR 24? Sure! Should a group of less than 18th level take him on, probably NOT! To be a real swine, add Arcane Strike to his character sheet. Everything else really doesn't matter with a character like this. :)
Red_Wizard 06-10-07, 09:47 AM	The problem with that build is he is not a Spell caster of that competane level. This build gives him access to 9th level spells, and were that the case he would not have had issues in his latest novel about getting around magically, when the Feyri female teleporting him about ran out of magic. At best he has 3rd level spells.
OverworkedDm 06-10-07, 03:45 PM	Thanks for all of the input, but let me pose one more question. If you guys were going to stat him what kind of equipment, feats, spell choices would you give him?
Green Elven Vampire 06-10-07, 11:25 PM	Look up his stats in the 2ED adventure Hellgate Keep: Dungeon Crawl That's also where Countess Sarya Dlardrageth made her first appearance.
msatran 06-11-07, 12:35 PM	He's a sorcerer. Maybe he just didn't take teleport. I guarantee you when the fight with Vhok comes in the third book of the series, he'll be casting 9th level spells. Quite frankly, if I were the badass paranoid leader of an army of 20,000 Tanarukk, I might consider not taking Teleport, because at any point, my bloodthirsty, murderous troops might get it into their evil little heads that they can eat me and mount my head on a pike. Instead, I'd use my rod of rulership to get someone else to do it for me. and control the murderous people with the pointy little heads. (And he does have one.) Khannyr Vhok is all about "See how influential I am and how much charisma I have." This says "Minion, teleport me to this place." Not "Screw you guys, I'm teleporting over here."
Lord Zeb 06-11-07, 01:59 PM	I was thinking about this the other day after finishing GP, I definitely think that fighter7/rogue2/wizard6 doesn't quite fit, nor does the epic CR. If you grant that he's advanced in level since Hellgate Keep, I don't think he hit epic level yet though. So let's do 17 class levels (CR 20): Fighter 6 / Rogue 2 / Wizard 6 / Eldritch Knight 3 BAB +13/+8/+3 CL 8 (4th level spells) Evasion, bonus feats x6, Sneak Attack +1d6 With the right equipment, he can hold his own, but he's not superior in anything. He'd be better rebuilt as a Fighter 2 / Rogue 2 / Wizard 6 / EK 7, but he's not a PC and doesn't necessarily need to survive X encounters per day.
Red_Wizard 06-12-07, 09:45 AM	He's a sorcerer. Maybe he just didn't take teleport. I guarantee you when the fight with Vhok comes in the third book of the series, he'll be casting 9th level spells. Quite frankly, if I were the badass paranoid leader of an army of 20,000 Tanarukk, I might consider not taking Teleport, because at any point, my bloodthirsty, murderous troops might get it into their evil little heads that they can eat me and mount my head on a pike. Instead, I'd use my rod of rulership to get someone else to do it for me. and control the murderous people with the pointy little heads. (And he does have one.) Khannyr Vhok is all about "See how influential I am and how much charisma I have." This says "Minion, teleport me to this place." Not "Screw you guys, I'm teleporting over here." Even if I had access to teleport, I'd make my minions teleport me around. Why? So I would be guaranteed to have it on hand when the time came it was needed. Whenever a sorc gains spells, he should make sure he has each of three things. Offensive, defensive, and utility. It is in this way (amongst the many others), that the sorc becomes the superior spell caster. Regardless no where in the novel does it make hint to a casting ability of higher than 3rd level spells. Guaranteed he'd have been better able to deal with the dwarves, centaurs, or efreet had he access to things more potent. As not a single spell of true power came into play in the novel, and many times it could have meant a guaranteed chance of survival, over a barely managed one, it is highly unlikely he is more than meets the eye when it comes to spell casting ability. Lastly, he was played off in the novel as more of a wizard than a sorcerer, though perhaps that was as he intended it. Regardless, he does use fly on occasion, and makes use of several other 2nd level spells. Had he access to anything higher, he would not have been so reserved in casting his low level spells only a few times, nor been lacking the ability to fly in the final scenario over the castle (I am keeping it decisively vague to avoid spoilers).
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 10:56 AM	He's a sorcerer. Maybe he just didn't take teleport. I guarantee you when the fight with Vhok comes in the third book of the series, he'll be casting 9th level spells. -The only problem is that Vhok, in all of his incarnations, has never exibited the ability to cast such high level spells.
msatran 06-12-07, 01:11 PM	I wouldn't fly up over a castle and expose myself to that much fire from enemy spellcasters if I were Khannyr Vhok.
TomCosta 06-12-07, 02:39 PM	Not having finished Gossamyr Plain, I'd make him a cambion (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, though there are some errrors in the write-up) marshal Miniature's Handbook)/hexblade (Complete Warrior with replaced class feature from PH2) of whatever level best suits your campaign, but probably between 3-5 levels of marshal and between 7-12 levels of hexblade. I'd also work up his scepter as follows: Scepter Malevolus (+1 anarchic, unholy, morphingMC heavy mace; 3/day— simultaneous detect good and law (CL 1); 1/day—simultaneous chaos hammer-unholy blight (CL 10); often chooses whip or longsword for weapon form; Price 99,000 gp). This is somewhat different than the original, but I think it captures it well, fits him and his levels, and is easily played.
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 02:41 PM	I wouldn't fly up over a castle and expose myself to that much fire from enemy spellcasters if I were Khannyr Vhok. -No, but like I said, Vhok has never, in any novel, sourcebook, or any other medium of storytelling, exhibited such spellcasting power.
Red_Wizard 06-12-07, 08:33 PM	I wouldn't fly up over a castle and expose myself to that much fire from enemy spellcasters if I were Khannyr Vhok. So instead you would choose to plumet to a near death as he did? For a novel it worked solely on the fact he is the main charry. In real life, what they did wouldn't fly (excuse the pun). He wouldn't have needed to fly all about becomming a target, but he certainly could have done more than simple fall feebly. Thus one can draw the conclusion he did not posess such an ability.
Ramar Aulinvox 06-12-07, 10:04 PM	I find the ftr/wiz/rog levels pretty good when considering the powers of a cambion in the 1st/2nd edition. Cambions could increase in HD but also gained the abilities of thieves (or assassins in 1ed), mages, and fighters. I have not seen the new cambion writeups so I can't say if it would be better; however, a half-fiend with replaced powers (there was a web article about replacing half-fiend powers recently) would work just fine.
msatran 06-14-07, 03:07 AM	Not possessing the ability as a sorcerer isn't the same thing as people writing a character with no tactical sense. They've been doing that for 20 years and no one's stopped them yet.
Red_Wizard 06-14-07, 08:45 AM	If that is your opinion, then perhaps you need to read more Forgotten Realms novels. There are indeed cases where they disband the rules in favour of good storytelling, but I have yet to see them make a character do something incredibly stupid because he somehow managed to forget he had a certain ability available to him. If you'll note that Kanyr did indeed cast fly over the crystal forest, then you know he possesses a 3rd level spell. But you will also have to note that after his plummet near the end, not only did he not use fly again, he levitated in place, and was drawn in by rope. This "tactic" left him as a greater target than he would have been flying, and slowed down their reaching the final destination. Had he the magic this could have been avoided. Also, it makes note during the episode where they discussed wind walking versus flying, and the priest pointed out that not only did wind walking last longer, but he doubted that Kanyr had enough fly spells to cast on them both, and maintain for any great distance. Now partially because Kanyr accepted this reasoning, and partially because he used no more than one fly spell in any given day, one can easily surmise that such skill is the peak of his magical profession.