Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pokie 06-26-07, 04:12 PM	I am running Expedition to Undermountain in the current year, 1374 DR, during which Khelben decides to just up and die. While I may not care much, I bet Waterdeep would change in some ways quite a bit. Any suggestions/ideas?
Keryth 06-26-07, 04:53 PM	I am running Expedition to Undermountain in the current year, 1374 DR, during which Khelben decides to just up and die. While I may not care much, I bet Waterdeep would change in some ways quite a bit. Any suggestions/ideas? OK, I know I've not picked up a FR novel since, oh...City fo Splendors I think. Khelben died? In which book or was this in an expansion?
Sullivan 06-26-07, 05:05 PM	In which book or was this in an expansion? Blackstaff, by Schend. His death is a secret in game.
pokie 06-26-07, 05:14 PM	His death may be secret, but its effects would be very real. That's what I am asking about.
Nisstyrethegreat 06-26-07, 05:33 PM	his half-elf apprentice tssara (spelling?) has taken the role of blackstaff with the aid of laeral.
pokie 06-26-07, 05:38 PM	I have heard of that, but does the apprentice actually look like Mr.K. and perform his duties in Waterdeep? Do the Lords know? Are any power groups changed? etc...
Zanan 06-26-07, 06:10 PM	pokie ... try to remember before creating the next thread that there are people about who haven't read Blackstaff as yet and may find it hard to take such a spoiler. Something like "(Spoiler) Effects of events described in Blackstaff on Waterdeep" would be less "harmful".
pokie 06-26-07, 06:52 PM	I have not read Blackstaff. I thought this was common knowledge - it's all over wiki-s, etc. without spoiler warnings. I believed it was "Did you know Darth Vader was Luke SkyWalker's father?" sort of spoiler. I'm sorry if you haven't heard this yet. Everyone dies eventually and I didn't mention any details.
The Simbul 06-26-07, 07:59 PM	Khelben's death would remain an unknown event for most of Faerun, and for the most part it should not have much of an effect at all. Any necessity for "keeping up appearances" would be met by Tsarra acting in his place, and whatever knowledge, Art, and artifacts he left to her in his passing should be more than sufficient to both allow her to impersonate in full as well as to perform whatever duties are necessary for the upkeep of Blackstaff Academy, the Moonstars, and his place among the Lords of Waterdeep. As far as Expedition to Undermountain is concerned--or even most Waterdeep campaigns to being with--I would imagine neither his presence or status would come into play. In the case of the former I do not own the module however it seems unlikely that he would be a needed on-hand NPC. In the case of a generic Waterdeep campaign most PCs would not need to interact with him at all unless the DM orchestrated it so, namely since you need the DM's permission to join Blackstaff Academy or the Moonstars, and city-shaking events that would call for his attention can either be covered by the (extraordinary) number of heroes who call the city home or ofted visit it or by having him addressing other ramifications of the event/attack elsewhere in the city (i.e. in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark where the Valsharess has laid siege to Waterdeep through Undermountain, and then at the end Mephistopheles appears in the heart of the city itself, and the only reference in the entire game to the Lord Mage of the city lay in the player's option to learn the blackstaff sorcerer/wizard spell.
Old Sage 06-26-07, 08:34 PM	Tsarra has assumed the guise of the Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun. This means that right after the events of the novel, she is a Lord of Waterdeep, head of the Moonstars and mage teacher at Blackstaff Tower. We don't know what happens subsequent to that. What is likely is that she might relinquish one or both of the first two offices. It's a crime to masquerade as a Lord of Waterdeep, so she may reveal herself to Peirgeiron who may decide to keep her on as a Lord. Or not. I doubt she'd get far trying to masquerade as one - although if that suits your Realms and campaign, that's fine as well. She will definitely continue 'being Khelben' in terms of a presence in Waterdeep and a presence in his wizard school in Blackstaff Tower.
pokie 06-26-07, 11:58 PM	Thanks guys, that's what I needed to know. I realize that Mr.K. is not likely to interact with pc-s, but his death is likely to have great effect on Waterdeep in one way or another. I think I got my questions answered.
Zsych 06-27-07, 03:51 AM	I'd personally think that political maneuvering would have increased among those who know of Blackstaff's demise... Trying to secure their own PoV as the strength in Waterdeep(as much as possible) Also, the secret should be leaked out and whispered some, with most people not, or only half-believing(while not really expecting a wizard like Blackstaff to ever die). Additionally, depending on what you want, some powerful forces(like the Wizards of Thay) should have some agents around who might actually have realized that something is off(maybe among Khelben's friends, or their moods, implying that something has happened), and may be researching the issue. By the time you get there, some dangerous faction may have realized that Khelben is dead. Although whether or not they can see a way to take any real advantage of the situation is doubtful... just spreading the rumors more severely and having high level clerics give the results of their divinations in public somehow, could well be used to at least create turmoil and maybe paint the people who are maintaing the current charade in a bad light(somehow)... depends on whether random turmoil would further any cause of theirs. A rumor that Khelben was lets say, killed by a Red Wizard and denied, might seem like a cover up to many people, if its forcefuly proved that Khelben is dead, after seriously seeding the idea that Khel was killed by a Red Wizard(like Szass Tam). ... a technique like this might actually also be tried by enemies of the RW, to create public hate for the RW. ... etc.
Wizardman 06-27-07, 07:51 AM	My gut feeling is that those closest to Khelben would know that something is off. Laeral would be able to keep their suspicions at bay for a while, but not forever. I do know that I want Danilo to find out at some point. Dan and Khelben were very close, and he is the likeliest to find the truth.
MikeR7716 06-27-07, 03:24 PM	I believed it was "Did you know Darth Vader was Luke SkyWalker's father?" sort of spoiler. Darth Vader is Luke's FATHER??? And I was going to watch that movie someday.
MerrikCale 06-27-07, 04:43 PM	I bet Waterdeep would change in some ways quite a bit. Any suggestions/ideas? its now called Watershallow Let me just apologize for that. I'm terribly sorry
MarkusTay63 06-28-07, 12:31 PM	With Khelben dead above, and Halaster dead below, the whole city should just slide into the sea and be gone. It would be a far more interesting locale if it were underwater. Rant Over.
pokie 06-28-07, 12:47 PM	Darth Vader is Luke's FATHER??? And I was going to watch that movie someday. Riiiiight
pokie 06-28-07, 12:48 PM	With Khelben dead above, and Halster dead below, the whole city should just slide into the sea and be gone. It would be a far more interesting locale if it were underwater. Rant Over. SPOILER SPOILER Mr. H is not really quite dead. Read the whole damn Expedition to Undermountain. Jeez.
pokie 06-28-07, 12:49 PM	I'd personally think that political maneuvering would have increased among those who know of Blackstaff's demise... Trying to secure their own PoV as the strength in Waterdeep(as much as possible) Also, the secret should be leaked out and whispered some, with most people not, or only half-believing(while not really expecting a wizard like Blackstaff to ever die). Additionally, depending on what you want, some powerful forces(like the Wizards of Thay) should have some agents around who might actually have realized that something is off(maybe among Khelben's friends, or their moods, implying that something has happened), and may be researching the issue. By the time you get there, some dangerous faction may have realized that Khelben is dead. Although whether or not they can see a way to take any real advantage of the situation is doubtful... just spreading the rumors more severely and having high level clerics give the results of their divinations in public somehow, could well be used to at least create turmoil and maybe paint the people who are maintaing the current charade in a bad light(somehow)... depends on whether random turmoil would further any cause of theirs. A rumor that Khelben was lets say, killed by a Red Wizard and denied, might seem like a cover up to many people, if its forcefuly proved that Khelben is dead, after seriously seeding the idea that Khel was killed by a Red Wizard(like Szass Tam). ... a technique like this might actually also be tried by enemies of the RW, to create public hate for the RW. ... etc. Excellent response, thank you. I want to use Twisted Runies... And them heaping trouble on RW, their main competitors, makes perfect sense. Any more suggestions?
dragonheart 06-28-07, 09:26 PM	Spoiler Alert!!!!!! I'm not going t block anything out so if you don't want to know the details skip this post!!! Given the way Khelben dies essentially everyone close to him already knows he is dead and knows the deception occuring and has agreed to help cover it. this effectively includes mystra so I doubt that there are going to be many divination spells that get the right answer. With fairly indepth knowledge of Khelben's plans and schemes and her ability to appear as Khelben she caqn pretty well squash any potential rumors of his death simply by appearing in public. About the only person who doesn't know is Perigon and I suspect that her has been secretly brought in on it and decided to let her stay as a lord since for most practical purposes (as far as the city is concerned) she is Khelben. WHat this means is that the other leaders of the moonstars know that she is his chosen succeessor and holder of much of his knowledge etc; the other chosen are aware of his desires in this, including Laerel so its highly unlikely that the knowledge/suspicion is going to get out for at least severral years and not likely to be confirmed for quite a few more. Also remember that the events basicaly happen at the very end of 1374 so its not likely that anyrepercussions will even start to show untilprobably 1380 or later.
pokie 06-28-07, 09:39 PM	Good points. I think Clerics can still divine whatever they want though - Mystra has no command over divine magic, imo. More importantly, will Tsarra and Laeral engage in hanky panky? :cool:
Zsych 06-29-07, 03:27 AM	Where Mystra could possibly hide such info from other gods(and thus their clerics), if she wants to. Thats really going too far. No god should be using their divine power to interfere in mortal affairs that way. The secret will leak out, and be known eventually. The only question is whether it will leak out to someone who can make interesting use of it, before its publicly known. (that pretender might need to be unmasked in public... probably should be an amusing scene for the PCs to experience too) @pokie: I think that the Twisted Rune could work. Plans by more than one organization might just end up confusing things. Public hate for the Red Wizards, by all of Waterdeep could be interesting to play, and offer some quest opportunities. It might be wise to cause a serious chaos(with the RW once again hinted as the cause), that the rulers of Waterdeep have to deal with, so that they don't have much chance to clarify their PoV and stop the public PoV from shifting along the Twisted Rune's desires. If the public is out for vengeance as a whole, then the rulers will have to accept their people's views to some degree(and opposition to RW probably wouldn't be something they are averse to, although they'll likely realize that something is up... which should also be interesting. Conspiracy Theories everywhere :)) Hmm... effects of political turmoil(once the secret is out).. some economic turmoil. Fear of bad business, maybe some hoarding of items, effecting the prices. News of violence keeping traders away(some organization might want to spread these as well, depending on their objectives... basically achieving a further short term weakening of Waterdeep). --- Blaming the Shades for Khel's death, would increase the public fear of Shades(after their army got blasted back in RotA). The Shades are also not an enemy you can directly hope to attack. Their should be some awe value to people who live on a flying mountain that can't be reached by conventional forces. But I'm not sure this path actually has that many story benefits, unlike the path of blaming the RW. Normal PCs shouldn't have much chance of succeeding in seriously effecting Shade enclave(although a failure and having to run away, is also a worthwhile experience... but one that not everyone likes) --- Elven mages(from Evermeet, the heart of all elfdom) having killed Blackstaff, gives you opportunity for a lot of racism. But I can't currently think of a good enough excuse to make it look like the higher-ups would've ordered it. An unknown organization(likely the Sarrukh under the Terraseer, once again planning to use humans against the Phaerimm perhaps), leaks the fact that the first set of the Nether scrolls was in Cormanthyr, and Blackstaff was planning to use the knowledge and bring them back to the humans. Both to regain the glory of humanity once stolen by the elves(a statement that makes Netheril look good), and also for safety against the Shades(also of Netheril, but current enemies). The elves in Evermeet, not wanting humans to rise to great magical strength ever again, sought to snuff out such knowledge(and keep the scrolls for themselves). This creates hatred against elves, competition with elves, desire for the scrolls(and more magic perhaps... if it is marketed well... always mention magical consumer items.. magical washing machines etc.)... and brings in the Shades, as both potential rivals for the scrolls(if old hatreds are maintained... not that that hurts the Sarrukh cause much.. as long as someone develops magic strong enough to defeat the Phaerimm), or as allies against the elves(fellow humans who retain great power... might need to paint Karsus as a hero who took a risk trying to save his nation) Plus, the racist situation also provides the potential for some interesting quests. And you would also have division in the elven ranks, from those who believe the story and choose to side with humans, those who choose to run away towards Cormanthyr or Evermeet, and those who also had racism in their hearts, and finally find it justified by what they think to be Evermeet's actions.... Those who seek to prove the truth would also be in there somewhere. If you want the Twisted Rune in this story, along with the Sarrukh. The Sarrukh could give them some interesting magical items, or spells that will give them a further advantage against their enemies, in return for help manipulating human public opinion in such a way(something the Sarrukh themselves might not be too able in, lacking the man-power, and not wanting to risk using too much magic that might end up being detected) Getting into the Twisted Rune network, would give you the best chance at exposing the lie(not that everyone will change their minds, even if it is disproved after they believe it... the possibility of a government cover-up is always there.. and something they'd be warned against believing(from their good, anti-violence, and keep humans weak, government) from the start of the Twisted Rune's campaign) In fact, one could suggest that some of the current rulers of Waterdeep were actually with the elves. Keeping humans weak, rather than risk trouble with the elven kingdom(or risk trouble to their wallets). This could make anyone who suggests that the elves were not involved, (with the rising hatred among the people), seem like a collaborator. If the PCs support the rulers of Waterdeep, trying to fix the false impressions, in this case, that should also be a rather interesting experience. (Wonder if you do enough role playing for ideas like this to be meaningful) ... Anyway, Thats about all the random thoughts currently coming out of my mind right now. Good luck with your campaign.
pokie 06-29-07, 12:51 PM	Actually, you hit almost exactly what I was thinking; I am more or less ignoring the shades' and elves' involvement, but I want sarrukh to assist the pc-s in recovery of n. scrolls to stop the "arcane disaster" form Exp. to the Undermountain. I.e. T.Rune along with power groups of the Undermountain act as villains with various interest, while sarrukh (go Terraseer!) eventually assist pc-s. And yeah, T. Rune will blame RW for Mr.K's demise.
Boda 06-29-07, 01:00 PM	Pink will be back in fashion?!
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 01:26 PM	More importantly, will Tsarra and Laeral engage in hanky panky? :cool:I can't believe I didn't think of this... :plotting: Personally, I think she will 'phase-out' the old Khelben, so in fifty years or so people will start asking "whatever happened to..." It makes more sense that way. She will pose as him at first, but then slowly make less and less appearances, sending 'his' apprentice Tsarra to run some of his old errends for him. People will get used to seeing her over time, and not him, and that will be the end of it. I'm sure the Lords will be in on the whole thing, and it actually adds another level to their secrecy. Rumors will fly that he is ill; Tsarra and Laeral will probably start dropping misinformation everywhere, like "oh, Khelben? He's off on another of his extra-planar romps." No one will know the truth, and in one human generation, no one will care, either.
The Simbul 06-30-07, 12:23 AM	I think people are severely missing the most prevalent aspect of the novel--namely the extent that Khelben, the Deities he served, and those he worked amongst, went to protect secrets and shroud such things in mystery. Mystra, Oghma, and Sehanine Moonbow are perfectly capable of keeping his death a secret from the realms beyond those dwelling within the restored City of High Magic, and I cannot fathom any of those entrusted with the secret of its return, entrusted with participating in its restoration, and in patiently waiting for the right time for the magic ritual to bring it back to Faerun, would suddenly transform into loose-lipped neighborhood gossip-mongers regarding the sacrifice of a Faerunian archmage once it was all over and done with.
pokie 06-30-07, 12:51 AM	some cleric of an evil deity will divine it soon enough.
The Simbul 06-30-07, 01:21 AM	Oh Really? Is that a common practice among evil aligned clerics to persistently ask "Is Khelben Arunsun, Lord Mage of Waterdeep, still alive?" when casting their commune spells on a daily, tenday, or monthly basis? Not only is there no roleplaying reason for an NPC with limited resources to bother asking such a random out-of-the-blue question, but there is also no roleplaying reason for a cleric to assume any divination spell they would cast seeking information about the aforementioned Archmage would actually succeed in the first place, given that any common 15th level Wizard is perfectly capable of rendering themselves untouchable to any information gathering spells via mindblank, and the Lord Mage of Waterdeep did not garner a reputation in life for leaving himself open to intrusion. Mindblank aside, that of course is to say nothing of whatever additional protections he may have been capable of, either with his spells, magic items/artifacts, or his divine granted abilities. More importantly, when mortals cast divination spells that ask questions of the powers that be, such spells can be intercepted by other unintended powerful entities--including deities--who have an significant stake or interest in the subject of the divination spell (Divinations and Keeping Secrets, Epic Level Handbook, p115). In this case, Khelben Arunsun has multiple deities connected to him who can in concert all serve to conceal his true fate if it serves their purposes to do so. If Mystra's fails the 50% chance check for her wish spell to intercept the divination, then the same % chance check could easily succeed when cast by Oghma, Sehanine, or any of a dozen other deities Khelben served in life and in his final act before death.
pokie 06-30-07, 01:55 AM	I am fairly certain that some evil deities would make it known, all trivialities of spellcasting set aside. You have to remember that there are plenty of 18th level clerics (evil clerics) around Waterdeep, whose deities can definitively relay this information from their own wishes without direct questioning from their worshipers, regardless of the power of the opposed gods. Such secrets never lay long undiscovered. This logic greatly depends on the personalities and powers the DM wishes the deities to possess though.
Zsych 06-30-07, 02:07 AM	The problem in the situation the Simbul suggests(not that I've read the novel), is that even the evil dieties might not know and thus they cannot casually pass the info along. A decent enough leak is needed that the right people at least believe it(for such knowledge to be suitably misused) ... I think Shar with her power over secrets is the best chance of having the info initially leak to someone, so that the info actually starts moving. No one is gonna actually stop Shar from talking to her clerics(if she has through her divine power, foreseen something of the future we wish to create :))
GothicDan 06-30-07, 02:09 AM	Well, the combination of Mystra, Oghma, and Sehanine (and through her, the entire Seldarine) could probably block Shar from knowing.
Zsych 06-30-07, 02:21 AM	Of course, there is still the issue of human error, and actual servants of Shar and other organizations. Someone who has contact with Khelben has to realize that his behavior is somewhat consistently off, and mention that minor fact to someone dangerous who sees ugly meanings in such happenings, and wants to check it out(for opportunities or threats). Although, as the Simbul says, divinations might well meet with failure. So we have a problem on our hands(unless the DM's power is used to trump Mystra and her friends... Oghma and the rest all failing to stop the divination.. or more importantly the relevant god noticing said attempts to stop the divination) I wonder... I think normal divination spells and such may well work through the Weave on Toril, and the method gods use to stop them might also be Weave magic dependent(since gods can't even manage a healing spell on Toril without the Weave). Thus a Shadow-weave divination might not be so easy to stop, if the gods senses attuned to Weave magic, can't easily detect the incoming spell. I think that the information gathering part of the Weave or Shadow-weave might be a passive thing, always working to a certain degree. Mystra could effect that process on the Weave maybe, but not easily and undetectably on the Shadow-weave.
boards 06-30-07, 04:34 AM	The cleansing of part of the High Moor and bringing back the city was a HUGE spell with massive effects. Wizards of a strong enough level can apparently feel massive spells from quite a distance away (Last Mythal books). I cant immagine a spell of this size being unnoticed by the gods and there mortal servants and someone not looking into it, Shar is the goddess of secrets and I am sure that she would be interested at least. Any mortals who felt that would undoubtably want to know what went on there, who was doing it, why they were doing so. Eventually things will get out.
blank_image 06-30-07, 07:48 AM	I believe Khelben's connections to Oghma would play an important role in determining how widespread knowledge of his death becomes. Oghma judges each piece of information in the realms and decides whether to release it to the public or not. Because of this, it would be simple for Oghma to deny this knowledge to anyone. While Oghma is traditionally willing to allow most knowledge into the Realms, it says in his description in Faiths and Avatars that knowledge should be spread when it is prudent to do so. Considering the vast amounts of knowledge that Khelben held, including things that could prove disastrous to the world, and the fact that knowledge of his death could have dangerous consequences for many people and places, it is not hard to imagine that Oghma would refuse this knowledge to anyone that did not need to know it. Knowledge of his passing will eventually become known, but it seems very unlikely that it will happen in the near future. Until it does become known, there should be very few, if any, noticable effects of his death. As for others noticing subtle differences in Khelben/Tssarra's behavior, that is easily explained away during the course of the novel. SPOILERS Essentially, Khelben's mind has been burned into Tssarra's. She knows everything he knows and even was experiencing things in his past as though she was him. Basically, everything that is Khelben is inside of her brain. From what I remember, she was also able to decieve Priamon into believing that she was Khelben. Priamon was a former apprentice of Khelben and someone that had long sought revenge against him. I believe that if she was able to decieve Priamon so skillfully, that there is little worry of her being unable to do the same to others.
dragonheart 06-30-07, 10:11 AM	several things to keep in mind: 1. as blank images has pointed out its not really tsarra pretending to be Khelben its Khelben acting through Tsarra to continue his other plots now that the main one is completed. IN that sense its unlikely to the extreme taht anyone "not in the know" is going to spot the "deception" because of some missed action. 2. the story line of the original poster is running in 1374 - Khelben doesn't die until the last day of 1374 so its not going to affect anything immediately no matter what happens. 3. because Tsarra has/does appear as khelben in waterdeeo after his death the knowledge of his death is strictly OOC metagaming of the worst sort. Will the knowledge eventually leak out? sure - when? effectively not till Tsarra is forced into a spellbattle that Khelben should win and she shouldn't and some of the others who are in on things have to come assist her. when will that happen given the rareity of archmage spellbattles? probably not for at least 20-50 years - by which time Tsarra may well be strong enough to handle the threat on her own. Remember - Khelben was the keeper of secrets he is effectively still working to keep this one a secret too so treat as being concealed by a past master of the trade not as something a bumbling apprentice is deperately trying to hide. (not that Tsarra was very much the bumbling apprentice) Is his death likely to have ANY impact in Waterdeep for the next 5-10 years? Definitely not!
pokie 06-30-07, 12:27 PM	If a death of an archmage has no effect on Waterdeep in somebody's setting, I wouldn't play that setting. :) Also, I feel that no combination of regular deities can over stop another deity from discovering something so trivial (to a deity) as death of an archmage. Clearly plenty of people disagree. In my campaign, I am gonna do it the way it was discussed early on - Twisted Rune blaming Red Wizards...
Zsych 07-01-07, 06:39 AM	Ahhh.. Oghma and his opinion that knowledge should be limited. If I ever get reborn into FR, I'm going to have to make it part of my objectives to take him down and help Gond take his place :)
Zandilar 07-01-07, 09:00 AM	Heya, WARNING: This post contains uncensored spoilers for the novel Blackstaff. Please ignore if you don't wish to be spoiled. More importantly, will Tsarra and Laeral engage in hanky panky? :cool: I can't believe I didn't think of this... :plotting: No, almost certainly not (well... at least not immediately - but who knows what might happen in the years to come?). Laeral knows that this "Khelben" is actually Tsarra. Tsarra is also involved with some guy whose name escapes me (and it's sad, since I actually did like him as a character - I just hate the way Tsarra and this guy got hooked up at the end so suddenly. It was very rushed)... The interesting thing will be, will Khelben's feelings for Laeral have any influence on Tsarra in the long term? I think Laeral will try to keep Tsarra fairly close - because aside from that mourning device thingy, Tsarra is all that Laeral has left of Khelben - and more than the mourning device, Tsarra-as-Khelben would mean that his children would have a better more real sense of who their father was. (Yes, I'm too lazy to go grab the book to find names right now.) Personally, I think she will 'phase-out' the old Khelben, so in fifty years or so people will start asking "whatever happened to..." That would have to happen at some point. I really can't see Tsarra posing as Khelben for the rest of her life - since that would mean she'd never have a life of her own, and I'm sure that's not what Khelben wanted for her.
msatran 07-01-07, 10:26 AM	Will Tsarra and Laeral engage in hanky-panky, huh? Wow. You have spawned yet another level of lesbian fanfiction. Congratulations. It's not the lesbian part that bothers me. It's amateurs writing badly.
Zsych 07-01-07, 03:12 PM	Khel should override Tsarra's mind. That way it'd just be Khel in Tsarra's body 'till he can transform it into male form again.
Zandilar 07-01-07, 09:25 PM	Heya, Will Tsarra and Laeral engage in hanky-panky, huh? Wow. You have spawned yet another level of lesbian fanfiction. Congratulations. It's not the lesbian part that bothers me. It's amateurs writing badly. Well I didn't mention it first (in this thread, I may have mentioned it in passing elsewhere)! :D I did think it though. At the end of the novel, I did think it. There are a number of problems, not the least of which is that Laeral is still mourning for Khelben, and Tsarra herself is not unaffected by that loss either. Tsarra also has to deal with Raegar, with whom it was strongly implied she had "affirmation of life" sex with... She'd have to ditch him at some point. In fact, I have a feeling it's not going to last anyway, as Raegar does not strike me as the sort of guy who would hang around doing sweet FA (or what Khelben wants him to do) while Tsarra spends the vast majority of her time in the form of Khelben. It also depends largely on how much of Khelben's feelings for Laeral have been imprinted into Tsarra's psyche. Like most of the Seven Sisters, I expect Laeral isn't quite straight (lets face it, they've all had hundreds of years to experiment), but this whole plot point would hinge on whether or not Laeral was attracted to Tsarra in return - and not just because of what Tsarra holds of Khelben in her head... 'cause that sort of relationship wouldn't last either. It's not just amateurs that write badly. :P After the last few attempts I've made at writing FR fan fiction, I've decided when I finish the current one I'll never try it again. (I consider myself professional, though I haven't had anything major published yet.) Khel should override Tsarra's mind. That way it'd just be Khel in Tsarra's body 'till he can transform it into male form again. Oh that's a horrible thought! Poor Tsarra. :( You'd consign the poor girl to actual oblivion just to get Khelben back. There'd be no afterlife for her, since she wouldn't be dead, but by the same token she wouldn't have her own identity anymore. It's a horrible horrible thought!
Zsych 07-01-07, 10:49 PM	Deep down, you like it don't you? :) There'd be some definite kinkiness with Laeral down that path. Same soul, but different mind(for Tsarra)
Muddman 07-02-07, 12:27 AM	If a death of an archmage has no effect on Waterdeep in somebody's setting, I wouldn't play that setting. :) Also, I feel that no combination of regular deities can over stop another deity from discovering something so trivial (to a deity) as death of an archmage. Clearly plenty of people disagree. In my campaign, I am gonna do it the way it was discussed early on - Twisted Rune blaming Red Wizards... I have to say that I disagree with the idea that any campaign not significantly altered by Khelban's death isn't worth playing, even if it is just by you. I like where your story is going with this revelation, and if that works for you then great, but DMs can do what they want with the info. Personally, my players never would have met Khelban (unless they sought him out) and probably won't hear about his death for a good long while. When they do it will likely be, "Ohh, he's dead... cool" and that will be the end of that. The Lords will elect a new leader, so no real revelations there. His Tower and school is still being run by an insanly powerful archmage in his wife, so no weakness there. The Moonstars is still a clandestine opperation, so what effects would they suffer in the public view? Tsarra is playing him (and effectively IS him) and that will work for a while at least. Surely the other Chosen of Mystra know and they will cover up alot of the leeking info. As for archmages dieing and it not effecting Waterdeep, archmages die occasionally and Waterdeep is still around, why would this one be so important when its obvious that other archmages are working hard to hide the info concerning his death. And gods keep secrets from one another all the time, probably none of the others know or really care aside from Shar. And ya, Shar may be the goddess of secrets, but shes not the goddess of idle gossip. Shes KEEPS secrets! Shes not about to go telling anyone, even her clergy because then it wouldn't be a SECRET, would it? Sure, someone some day will cast scry and they won't find him... I doubt he would have gotten this far without casting mind blank on a daily basis, making him immune to any divinations. What archmage worth his salt would be that easily found? I seriously doubt Khelban would take over like a parasite and transform Tsarra into his new body, he'd be effectively killing her for his gain and his goodly nature would never allow that. My bet, Khelban's knocking around inside her head like Spock in Dr. McCoy (Star Trek... I forget the #) until she and Mystra can get him to a new vessel of somesort. Heck, if Elminster spent a few years as a FEMALE priestess earlier in his life, then anything is possible. Later
pokie 07-02-07, 02:55 AM	Heya, WARNING: This post contains uncensored spoilers for the novel Blackstaff. Please ignore if you don't wish to be spoiled. No, almost certainly not (well... at least not immediately - but who knows what might happen in the years to come?). Laeral knows that this "Khelben" is actually Tsarra. Tsarra is also involved with some guy whose name escapes me (and it's sad, since I actually did like him as a character - I just hate the way Tsarra and this guy got hooked up at the end so suddenly. It was very rushed)... That made me imagine Khelben making out with some guy... :(
pokie 07-02-07, 03:00 AM	Muddman, It just that _I_ wouldn't play in a campaign where the death of a chosen archmage has no visible effects; whether players see those changes for what they are is irrelevant. I am pretty sure Shar would do whatever to advance her hold on Waterdeep...
pokie 07-02-07, 03:00 AM	[double post]
Zandilar 07-02-07, 03:08 AM	Heya, Deep down, you like it don't you? :) There'd be some definite kinkiness with Laeral down that path. Same soul, but different mind(for Tsarra) Of course deep down I like the idea. The problems I outlined can be overcome, and it really doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to think something might happen with Laeral and Tsarra sometime down the track. (By the way, I'm just assuming you meant the Laeral/Tsarra relationship, not the possible "Khelben overrides Tsarra and denies her her own life" plot. As for the kinky comment - homosexual relationships can be just as vanilla as heterosexual relationships, why would there necessarily be kinkiness there?) I would love to see an openly homosexual/bisexual character in Realms canon, who wasn't just a minor NPC... When was the last time there was a major NPC who happened to be homosexual (or in this case it would be bisexual) in the Realms that wasn't glossed over or never mentioned? Warning: Don't read this spoiler block if you don't want to know about homosexuality in the Realms. Here's my short list: Yanseldara and her consort Vaerana Hawklyn (open mention in FRCS, but not much in the way of other details about them. Would only be concidered major if the campaign took place in or around Elversult. They appear in exactly one novel, The Veiled Dragon, but there's nothing mentioned about their relationship - though there's some very vague subtext there), Myrmeen Lhal (Ed Greenwood has said she's a "true bisexual", but this has never been mentioned in print), Storm and Alustriel (both bisexual(ish) according to Ed, but again, never been mentioned in print), Alusair (is slightly bisexual according to Ed, apparently has trysted with Myrmeen (one of the rare females that can cater to the Steel Regent's rather uh physical tastes), but none of this has been mentioned in print). As for males, I confess I don't tend to keep track of them. As far as I recall there haven't been any open mentions in print of homosexual or bisexual males. Strangely enough, transsexuals and transvestites seem to get more "air play" - but magic makes this aspect easier. Also, with everything, there are hints and subtext if you are looking for them in some of the older books (2nd Ed Stuff). The important thing to keep in mind is that there is no overlying taboo against homosexuality in the Realms... There are some places where it's kind of frowned on, but usually because homosexual relationships can't naturally produce children, which is a bad thing for places where succession is important. This would mostly be amongst nobles or any other people who put a lot of importance on the continuation of the family line.
Zandilar 07-02-07, 03:12 AM	Heya, That made me imagine Khelben making out with some guy... :( Fortunately Tsarra isn't Khelben. ;)
Stigger 07-02-07, 03:15 AM	Feh, you could easily ignore a lot of those social conventions you mentioned there in the bottom of the blocked stuff Zandi... marry a trophy spouse, pop out a few heirs, and then promptly ignore each other to carry on with your actual tastes... so long as you keep it discrete for keeping up decorum, I doubt anyone would actually care if you 'did your duty' first. That certainly proved to be true on this world amongst the nobility and elite... ;)
Zandilar 07-02-07, 03:40 AM	Heya, Feh, you could easily ignore a lot of those social conventions you mentioned there in the bottom of the blocked stuff Zandi... marry a trophy spouse, pop out a few heirs, and then promptly ignore each other to carry on with your actual tastes... so long as you keep it discrete for keeping up decorum, I doubt anyone would actually care if you 'did your duty' first. That certainly proved to be true on this world amongst the nobility and elite... ;) That's exactly right. ;) Many of the social mores of Earth just don't apply in Faerun.
Wizardman 07-02-07, 04:17 AM	I seriously doubt Khelban would take over like a parasite and transform Tsarra into his new body, he'd be effectively killing her for his gain and his goodly nature would never allow that. Well, he's not good, but I agree with you. He would never do that. My bet, Khelban's knocking around inside her head like Spock in Dr. McCoy (Star Trek... I forget the #) until she and Mystra can get him to a new vessel of somesort. Heck, if Elminster spent a few years as a FEMALE priestess earlier in his life, then anything is possible. Later I'm not so sure. I'm certain that Tsarra would jump at the chance if she thought that she could pull it off, but a realistic chance of actually pulling that off is... well, let's just say that it's unrealistic. Elven High Magic takes a great toll on those who wield it, which is probably why Mystra permits it to happen when she denies true 10th level spells from humans. Both Khelben and Ualair's deaths were necessary in order for the City of Hope to be restored. If either death was reversed, the whole thing would come undone, and probably in a very spectacular manner. It's conceivable that something could be made to serve in Khelben's place, but my gut instinct tells me that the Law of Equivalent Exchange applies here. To me, the true tragedy of his fate is his untimely separation from Laeral. However, even that may not last. Of all the (human) Sisters, Laeral is the one most in tune with her elven heritage. If any of the Seven (Qilue excepted) ends up in Arvandor, it will be Laeral-- and I would be shocked if Khelben wasn't waiting for her with open arms.
Zsych 07-02-07, 04:22 AM	About Khelben in Tsarra... it depends on how much of his mind is inside Tsarra. It might be able to accidentally override Tsarra by virtue of being stronger... it may want to be with Laeral again, and decide that Tsarra's life really isn't worth as much as his own(the desire for something can seriously change how you view a situation)
pokie 07-02-07, 04:23 AM	Zandi, First off, don't get me started on Elversult - whoever made that word must have been drunk at the time... Also, I honestly would rather not read about homosexuality in my fantasy books - unless both chicks are hot ;).
Zandilar 07-02-07, 08:50 AM	Heya, First off, don't get me started on Elversult - whoever made that word must have been drunk at the time... What do you mean? Also, I honestly would rather not read about homosexuality in my fantasy books - unless both chicks are hot ;). I wanted to say something rude and angry here, but all I could manage was a sad sigh. So next I tried to write something to make you back off and think a moment about what you're saying. Something that might prompt you to walk a mile in my shoes and see how I feel... But that didn't work either - what can you say to someone who doesn't want to take their blinkers off? Nothing I could ever say would make you understand... *sigh* I'll try it anyway... Imagine you live in a world were heterosexuality is in the minority (ie: reverse the way things are now, except you stay heterosexual). Now imagine that every book you ever read was about homosexual characters. How would you feel? Just in case you didn't know - I'm a lesbian. This issue touches a raw nerve for me.
pokie 07-02-07, 12:17 PM	Look, I did put a smiley in the end - it's a joke... May be a bad one in some people's views, but I have nothing against bad jokes. Also, I honestly don't ever want to imagine two men being intimate with each other (unless it was funny, may be). So when reading mainstream fantasy I would rather not be surprised by Khelben getting cozy with Elminster. But, in cool alternative sci fi, everything goes :cool:
Zandilar 07-02-07, 06:15 PM	Heya, Look, I did put a smiley in the end - it's a joke... May be a bad one in some people's views, but I have nothing against bad jokes. Also, I honestly don't ever want to imagine two men being intimate with each other (unless it was funny, may be). So when reading mainstream fantasy I would rather not be surprised by Khelben getting cozy with Elminster. But, in cool alternative sci fi, everything goes :cool: Unfortunately for you, the ;) was rather ambiguous, given the context. A :P would have worked better to get the point that it was a joke across. :) Thank you for clearing that up. (Oh gods, now I'm talking about the context of smileys... whatever next? :eek:) You have to ask yourself, though - why is it hard for you to read about two guys together, but not two girls? And also, why isn't it hard for me to read about a guy and a girl together? You'd think I'd be going "eww man bits!!" (Just like you, I'd imagine) But I'm not. I don't think I've ever read a Dungeons and Dragons novel where there was anything more than "fade to black" where sex is concerned. Besides which, I doubt we'd see old El and Khel together, both have (or had in Khel's case) their lady loves and seem (or seemed) quite content... So it would be a surprise, and completely out of character for them. On the other hand, representation for my gay male counterparts wouldn't be off putting for me. Humans come in all shapes and sizes, and constantly seeing straight white males as main characters and as dominant characters in fantasy novels is really an aberration for the state of humanity, and is not properly representative of the Realms as a whole. (Admittedly, in a world with fantasy races, human ethnicity is really a secondary consideration - especially since none of the ethnicities of Faerun completely correspond to Earth ethnicities... Still it would be nice if we were shown the distinctions between them - from what I can ascertain, most characters in Realms novels are either Chondathan or Illuskan - we hardly ever see any others represented.)
Zsych 07-02-07, 06:30 PM	@Zandilar: The difference might be that you grew up knowing that heterosexual sex was normal. Anyway, women with women may be a little odd, but its not exactly our problem. Men with men, relates to a whole mess of emotions(that really cannot be explained in the presence of women :P) --- As far as novels go though, I'd like one that primarily focusses on a Netherese or Imaskari character, with them as the protagonist.
pokie 07-02-07, 06:43 PM	Zandi, in not so many words two women engaging in intimate acts is hot for straight guys since they are into women. It corresponds to an archetypal male fantasy. But a straight guy is highly unlikely to wish to be intimate with another man; hence, that idea is an archetypal male "fear" - most find it revolting anyway. For this very reason _mainstream_ fantasy like FR novels will probably never have such interactions. Their sales would drop in that case as most readers are males in their teens, hardly a tolerant age group. There are plenty of alternatives out there. Hell, I have read at least 3 sci fi stories where male homosexuality was the central issue, and they were awesome because of the sci fi concepts involved. On the other hand, I wish they ditched humans in fantasy novels more, I like the ones about totally alien races...
Zsych 07-02-07, 06:45 PM	A uni-sexual alien world might suit some people, where they still have to reproduce in pairs :P
pokie 07-02-07, 06:46 PM	Left Hand of Darkness...
KarsusAspectOfZsych 07-02-07, 10:43 PM	As regards the story, Khelben dying and having no noticeable effect would be just sad.
boards 07-03-07, 12:41 AM	Sexuallity seems to be like Jack Harkness from the Dr Who and Torchwood series; male, female, alien (humanoid), its all good. Problem is Ed says something at CK, but then his books sometimes say a different thing (stupid WOTC censors). The other problem is, unless the writers are gay/lesbian, could they write such a persons POV accurately enough for a novel?
Psionycx 07-03-07, 01:31 AM	Heya, That's exactly right. ;) Many of the social mores of Earth just don't apply in Faerun. They rarely ever even applied on Earth! Okay, I think Khelben's death will have long-term impacts. Even if Tsarra has a majority of Khelben's mind inside her she can't possibly maintain the dizzying number of plans he had going at one time. That level of organization takes lifetimes to build up to. And while Laeral also probably knows about most, if not all, of Khelben's various activities it's unclear if she's motivated enough to maintain them or just try to fold them into her sister Alustriel's plans for the North. It also boils down to the question of just how critical Mystra thinks Waterdeep is. It's not as if she's the singular divine matron of the city. She could just as easily hand it off to Tyr or Lathander and tell them it's their problem to keep it in order. After all, she's got Shar's power play shaping up over Anauroch. And right now Mystra's own strongest center of power is far to the south in Halruaa. She needs to strengthen her presence in the center of Faerun before Shar builds an empire there. I've lost track (been getting behind on my reading). What has Mystra done with Halaster since Elminster in Hell? As for the gay & lesbian thing. I'm biased. I'm gay. I'd love to see more GLBT characters in the Realms. That said, neither the game accessories nor the novels have ever seemed to have a lot of real, live hanky panky. We infer most of the hanky panky, even for the straight characters, with it actually occuring between chapters. This is despite my long-standing belief that Ed Greenwood has a vivid fantasy life involving the Seven Sisters and a dizzying assortment of magical implements that aren't readily available even at the local Thay-Mart. But there are novel series outside the Wizards worlds that do have GLBT characters without a lot of icky hanky panky (although I have noticed that some people find same-sex romance even more threatening and terrifying than the sex piece). Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series is a great example of a fantasy series that just happens to have bisexual protagonists who have a great romance, but no real on-page sex. Pillow talk, yes. The man dance itself, no. It's worth noting that Flewelling herself is a straight woman. A lot of really good GLBT fantasy is written by straight authors. All of this said, I really have a hard time seeing Laeral and Tsarra. Laeral has enough experience with things like intelligent magic items to know that just because something has certain thoughts doesn't make it something else.
Zsych 07-03-07, 03:05 AM	Yet all that you really interact with in another human is a personality. Same thoughts means that its basically the same person or same kind of person you're interested in.
Zandilar 07-03-07, 08:13 AM	Heya, They rarely ever even applied on Earth! That may be true, but apparently some things are more openly done in the Realms. Okay, I think Khelben's death will have long-term impacts. Even if Tsarra has a majority of Khelben's mind inside her she can't possibly maintain the dizzying number of plans he had going at one time. That level of organization takes lifetimes to build up to. And while Laeral also probably knows about most, if not all, of Khelben's various activities it's unclear if she's motivated enough to maintain them or just try to fold them into her sister Alustriel's plans for the North. Well, for the moment, Laeral has taken herself out of the picture - choosing to live in the new City of Hope, and leaving Tsarra to completely take over Blackstaff Tower. It also boils down to the question of just how critical Mystra thinks Waterdeep is. It's not as if she's the singular divine matron of the city. She could just as easily hand it off to Tyr or Lathander and tell them it's their problem to keep it in order. After all, she's got Shar's power play shaping up over Anauroch. And right now Mystra's own strongest center of power is far to the south in Halruaa. She needs to strengthen her presence in the center of Faerun before Shar builds an empire there. Tyr has always had a fairly strong presence in Waterdeep, given the Open Lord is a Paladin of Tyr. I agree, though, that she needs a stronger presence. (Some people will no doubt disagree, citing the usual "Mystra is too powerful" junk.) I've lost track (been getting behind on my reading). What has Mystra done with Halaster since Elminster in Hell? No idea. As for the gay & lesbian thing. I'm biased. I'm gay. I'd love to see more GLBT characters in the Realms. That said, neither the game accessories nor the novels have ever seemed to have a lot of real, live hanky panky. We infer most of the hanky panky, even for the straight characters, with it actually occuring between chapters. This is despite my long-standing belief that Ed Greenwood has a vivid fantasy life involving the Seven Sisters and a dizzying assortment of magical implements that aren't readily available even at the local Thay-Mart. You don't need hanky panky to portray homosexual characters. This is one of those frustrating things. Many of the most virulent of the anti-gay are focused on the sex. They boil us down to lustful promiscuous perverts, and look at us as if we are just disgusting and unnatural, and completely focused on sex. These people seem to be obsessed with the sex they imagine gay males would have, not realizing that plenty of heterosexual couples engage in the same kinds of things too (I am being deliberately obtuse here, I know). But our relationships are not just about sex. They're about the same kinds of things heterosexual relationships are about - love, intimacy, companionship, and family. Anyway, that kind of side tracked. We don't need to focus on sex at all to include LGBT characters. Sexuality is just a single aspect to characters, and just because a character is homosexual or bisexual or transgender, doesn't mean the story automatically devolves into lurid descriptions of sex! As for what you imagine to be Ed's Fantasy... What's wrong with that?! :embarrass Oops, I think I just gave away too much about myself... :incog: (I think you're a little off, though Psionycx. I think Ed is just bawdy by nature, and I don't think he's focused on any particular NPC or group of NPCs.) But there are novel series outside the Wizards worlds that do have GLBT characters without a lot of icky hanky panky (although I have noticed that some people find same-sex romance even more threatening and terrifying than the sex piece). Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series is a great example of a fantasy series that just happens to have bisexual protagonists who have a great romance, but no real on-page sex. Pillow talk, yes. The man dance itself, no. It's worth noting that Flewelling herself is a straight woman. A lot of really good GLBT fantasy is written by straight authors. Never read it... Manlove isn't my cuppa, so I probably won't. My general experience has been that queer characters are usually only supporting characters, and when they're more than just supporting characters they tend to be male. Ever noticed that? Despite the well known old saw of the male fantasy of two girls together, most homosexual/bisexual main characters are male. (Mind you, I've never understood the fascination of men with lesbians... What do they think? That we're suddenly going to ask them into our beds? Puhleeeeze!) All of this said, I really have a hard time seeing Laeral and Tsarra. Laeral has enough experience with things like intelligent magic items to know that just because something has certain thoughts doesn't make it something else. Laeral is definitely intelligent and wise enough to know better, for sure... But the "what if" that I have in mind has something to do with Tsarra's experience of Khelben providing a point of common ground between the two women, and it would slowly grow from there... Tsarra would definitely be confused, and Laeral wouldn't want to take advantage of that. It could be quite a bitter and sweet story by turns, slowly unfolding over the course of years. By no means would they fall into bed together anytime soon! :eek: (I never assume a character's sexuality until it has been blatantly stated one way or the other. A single relationship in the course of a novel doesn't provide enough of a context to make any assumptions.)
Zandilar 07-03-07, 08:15 AM	Heya, Sexuallity seems to be like Jack Harkness from the Dr Who and Torchwood series; male, female, alien (humanoid), its all good. Problem is Ed says something at CK, but then his books sometimes say a different thing (stupid WOTC censors). The other problem is, unless the writers are gay/lesbian, could they write such a persons POV accurately enough for a novel? I think a straight writer is perfectly capable of writing a homosexual character, so long as they have an open mind about it... As a lesbian, I have no problems writing straight females (but as someone mentioned, having grown up in a world where heterosexuality is ever pervasive, I have had more exposure to heterosexuality than a straight person has of homosexuality - which might provide me with an advantage as far as that is concerned... If that makes sense?). :)
boards 07-03-07, 08:53 AM	That makes perfect sense, the average heterosexual person really knows very little about gay people. Gay people have grown up among hetero people, and in some cases may have been hetero at one point. This would give a decided advantage in insights.
Psionycx 07-03-07, 11:38 AM	And yet, somehow, human authors in the real world seem to be doing a reasonable job of portraying elves, wizards and other fantastical creatures. I'm dubious of the notion that only GLBT writers can successfully write GLBT characters for that reason, and because of the fact that a large chunk of what has been written is usually written by straight women. That said, ironically, browsing around ye olde GLBT bookstore, there is a lot more fantasy/sci-fi stuff centered on lesbian characters than gay male ones. A lot of slash fiction is more male-oriented, but it seems like there's more published stuff (albeit from indy publishers) with female protagonists rather than male ones. Once you exclude the bedroom stuff, same-sex relationships are surprisingly similar to opposite-sex ones. Then of course there's writers who are able to do it all despite a lack of personal experience (Anne Rice, we know you're still out there...). Anyway... *SPOILER* Mystra made Halaster into a Chosen in Elminster in Hell (she needed some psychotic cannon fodder for the rescue mission). Halaster as we all know has a long history of lurking around under Waterdeep messing with people. Assuming Mystra can keep him reasonably sane she could use him to police her interests in the city. Tyr could be prevailed upon to enlarge his direct support for Waterdeep (something he'd probably do gladly) although this might result in changes to it's government (the whole mysterious-masked-lords thing being more Mystra's style than his). Laeral's lived a long time and I don't think she's going to rush into any course of action. Her sister Alustriel has plans for the North and Laeral may just try and redirect some of Khelben's plots and agents into Alustriel's hands to keep the more essential ones going. I don't see her falling into Tsarra's arms. In the long term who only knows what could happen. But I'm inclined to think that Laeral is not the kind of person who will cling desperately to any last fragment of Khelben just for the sake of doing so. Rather I think she knows she needs to go through the mourning process and then eventually move on to other things. She's still one of Mystra's Chosen and there's an awful lot going on these days.
Stigger 07-03-07, 05:38 PM	Didn't get the impression she elevated Halaster to Chosen status... amped him up certainly, but I think Chosen is too strong a characterization of what she actually did to him.
pokie 07-03-07, 05:44 PM	She has waaaay to many Chosen - shouldn't the power drain make her a lesser deity or something?
Stigger 07-03-07, 05:53 PM	Why would it? The power she grants them is probably inconsequentially small to her really, considering her portfolio.
pokie 07-03-07, 06:02 PM	That's what entry on some chosen said...
Stigger 07-03-07, 06:04 PM	Think that's a theory, that her power is diluted in them... never stated one way or another why she makes Chosen, beyond a lot of theories being tossed out about it.
boards 07-03-07, 06:34 PM	While it is probably insignificant to her, it must be enough to boost someone into godhood, given that Moander wants to subsume their power in order to kick start his return to diviness.
Zandilar 07-03-07, 07:32 PM	Heya, Got lots to say... So I'll reply en mass. :) And yet, somehow, human authors in the real world seem to be doing a reasonable job of portraying elves, wizards and other fantastical creatures. I'm dubious of the notion that only GLBT writers can successfully write GLBT characters for that reason, and because of the fact that a large chunk of what has been written is usually written by straight women. An excellent point. That said, ironically, browsing around ye olde GLBT bookstore, there is a lot more fantasy/sci-fi stuff centered on lesbian characters than gay male ones. A lot of slash fiction is more male-oriented, but it seems like there's more published stuff (albeit from indy publishers) with female protagonists rather than male ones. And we can all thank Xena and a particular Fan Author for that. If Missy Good hadn't kick started the idea of published Uber fiction, I don't think we'd have the range and variety we have now (at least that's where it all seemed to begin, and a large number of characters in these books bear a suspicious/striking resemblance to the dark haired blue eyed warrior, and her blonde haired green eyed companion). Mind you, these are all written by lesbians, published by lesbians, for lesbians. I'm not surprised you only find this stuff in your local GLBT bookstore (you're lucky to even have one!). I could go on, but I won't since this isn't the forum for it. Needless to say, there is a reason why this has happened - we lesbians are starved for representations of ourselves in the mainstream... So we filled the gap ourselves. Slash fiction (that is, stories in which male homosexuality is prominant regarding characters who are not homosexual in their world's canon), ironically enough, is mostly written by straight women and aimed at a straight female audience. Femme-slash is a subgenre written usually by women of a queer bent, and plenty of men (probably not as much as women write slash). I don't see her falling into Tsarra's arms. In the long term who only knows what could happen. But I'm inclined to think that Laeral is not the kind of person who will cling desperately to any last fragment of Khelben just for the sake of doing so. Rather I think she knows she needs to go through the mourning process and then eventually move on to other things. She's still one of Mystra's Chosen and there's an awful lot going on these days. No, as I said, she wouldn't fall into that trap. Khelben would just be a starting point for a relationship to develop, but ultimately not what it would hinge on. Yes, I know, it's wishful thinking... It'll never happen. :( She has waaaay to many Chosen - shouldn't the power drain make her a lesser deity or something? As Stigger said, that's only a theory. No one really knows for certian why Mystra has so many Chosen. Like Stigger also said, the amount of power she invests in her Chosen is only a microscopic fraction (if that) of the full power she possesses. She is the Weave, and the Weave touches all things. (This is one of the reasons why I hate "statting" deities (and uberpowerful demon and devil lords). It makes them too limited for my liking, dilutes the awesome power I think a deity would possess.) While it is probably insignificant to her, it must be enough to boost someone into godhood, given that Moander wants to subsume their power in order to kick start his return to diviness. I thought Moander was drifting senseless in the Astral?
Psionycx 07-03-07, 07:48 PM	Didn't get the impression she elevated Halaster to Chosen status... amped him up certainly, but I think Chosen is too strong a characterization of what she actually did to him. I don't know what I did with the book (paperbacks pile up after a few decades of collecting), but I had the impression from the dialogue when she recruited him that he was becoming Chosen. In either case, it makes little difference. He's got like an ECL of 30! Any additional perks on top of that are just gravy and he's her boy now. I think a wizard that powerful can be readily used to upkeep one's interests in a major city, and lot else besides. As for bisexuality and the Seven Sisters, I think any of them are candidates (the drow one probably the most). I've always had the impression that it was more editorial puritanism that keeps these things quiet in the Realms and not that Faerunian culture is hostile towards them. Part of Lhaeo's cover story for years was the fiction that he was a "manlover" and Elminster's "companion". In actuality he and the Old Mage were both sleeping with silver-haired sisters, but that was on the hush-hush. Then again, anyone brave enough to make homohpobic slurs at Elminster had better make peace with their god in advance. But my impression was that people were indifferent to such things. I also had the impression from the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy (which was admittedly awful IMO) that Sharantyr and her two ranger boys were a threesome. You sometimes have to read between the lines around here. But it would be nice to see something a bit more open. It's not as if the target audience is really that young.
boards 07-03-07, 11:12 PM	Heya, I thought Moander was drifting senseless in the Astral? I think it is in PoF that an aspect of Moander still exist on the Material Plane and is scheming to get back his godhood. Edit: It is on page 117 of PoF. Apparently when the elves banished Moander in Tsornyl millenia ago, it allowed a portion of him to survive Finder destroying his form on the planes. At the moment he is quite weak but 1 avatar or 2 chosen would send him back to demi-god status.
pokie 07-03-07, 11:53 PM	whoa 1 avatar can wipe the floor with all chosen in the world combined - that doesn't make sense...
Wizardman 07-04-07, 01:54 AM	whoa 1 avatar can wipe the floor with all chosen in the world combined - that doesn't make sense... Very true, but I don't think that the same can be said about a weakened (or more accurately, "starved") avatar of a dead god. There's a reason that its luring them to it as opposed to seeking them out.
Stigger 07-04-07, 04:00 PM	Trap as opposed to attack... tends to work a lot better. But if they haven't gone poking into the darkwatch in all these centuries, I don't think they're going to just decide to go poking at it for the hell of it. ;) I tend to think of Moander as something like Fzoul... big on plots and plans, but not all that many of them making much sense or with much hope of success...
boards 07-04-07, 05:27 PM	Supposedly the wards holding him in Darkwatch are only just beginning to fail allowing him to interact with the world, so he hasn't had long to put his plan into action.
dragonheart 07-04-07, 08:08 PM	I suspect that we will see a corection to that entry in Power of Faerun after some editirs go back and reread the end of the finder series. FIrst his earthly avatar is nearly destroyed opens a portal to "home base" to rejoin the "essential" moander and then finder follows and is able to destroy the true form on its home plane - granted with other deific help in ways not detailed in the novel. so there is no portion of Moander on Faerun and his godly essence has been destroyed and its deific power invested in Finder. What is left are some devout followers trying to resurrect their deity and they need a deific spark to do so. By the way it is in canon that Mystra invests a portion of her deific power in her chosen to keep from becoming to overpowered - as directed by AO. this is what makes her chosen generally superior to other chosen of other deities as they do not have the excess power to distribute. I (or one of the greater sages here) will pull up the exact reference in a day or three
boards 07-04-07, 11:36 PM	I think the theory PoF is using is that Moander sent an avatar to Toril, the elves seperated it from its real self, trapped it in Darkwatch where it lay hidden while Finder went and destroyed its real self of the planes. Whatever godly essence was placed into the avatar was not affected by the rest of its essence was destroyed and hence it can still reach out to dreamers. The avatars essence is not enough to return it to godhood, but enough for it to still exist and dream godly dreams.
dragonheart 07-05-07, 07:59 AM	As I recall (its been a few years since I read the series) the portion trapped by the elves was freed and then destroyed by the red dragon chasing Alias as the mass of garbage oozed from Yulash towards Myth Drannor. After being toasted what ever part of Moander was left either retreated to its home plane or took up residence in the garbage heap being prepared by the saurials in Tarkhaldale - and this was the pile that Finder destroyed and then chased back to its home plane and destroyed the deity there. the problem and possibility I see is that moander had tendrils of rot (hyphae) out to at least the saurial's home world and may have avatars there or elsewhere taht are still trying to rebuild the deity in Faerun and are being allowed to provide some power to worshipers.
boards 07-05-07, 10:08 AM	Thats true I forgot about Old Moldy becoming Mr Toasty:D
dragonheart 07-07-07, 02:41 PM	As for the hidden city city staying hidden and archwizards everywhere sudenly knowling all about it simply because they sensed superstrong magic being cast somewhere keep in mind that while they may be able to detect the surge of power they are not able to localize it - if they were then tracking down where Sammander had linked the dracorage mythal to his phylactery would have been a simple exercise, locating the introduction of shade would have been easy, locating the shadow blanckets on the great ice would have been easy and elminsterr and all hte chosen's lives would be made much simpler (along with every archmage's). Essentially all that their sense tells them is that something major has occured but not what and where. I believe Elminster actually says something about this in one of his novels. COnsidering that the locvation of the hidden city is not the sort of place you go looking for major magic occuring to occur every day, and the fact that scrying spells are not exactly the same as orbiting telephoto spy satellites giving you a new map of changes in the infrastructure of the entire globe on a daily-weekly basis it may well be years before anyoner actually tumbles to the change - certainly not untill after the cleansing effects pass outside the protected zone - so figure anything from 20 to 200 years from now. So again my thought is that while we know about the change that is a major OOC knowledge that should not be carried over into the game significantly for anywhere from 5-25 years minimum.
starfalconkd 07-07-07, 10:04 PM	Actually, Hlaavin, in his new role as a Lord of Waterdeep might start piecing some of this together. It would take time and effort but I imagine keeping things from someone like him is not easy. Of course, I doubt he'd tell anyone if he figured it out. That kind of knowledge is serious power. Just an idea.
HVulpes 07-09-07, 02:58 PM	My comments: Moander was imprisoned by the elves twice. Once in the Dalelands in the elven village he corrupted and once at his temple in the Moonsea. The latter was freed by Alias, the former is the Darkwatch mentioned in Powers. With Khelben's condition, remember that he's a wizard. The main population is seen as oddballs of various degrees. The sky gets cloudy and one could go on a fifty year trek through the inner planes. Odd behaviour might been seen more as a result of too many fumes or a miscast spell. Lesbians might be the idea of all of the sex and less of the work, plus the ability to tame the wild fillies. But remember this joke! A man goes to his lesbian friend and asks, "My wife isn't as interested in sex as she once was. I was thinking that you can come over and spice things up with her." The lesbian says, "Bob, I hate to break it to you. But the reason that your wife isn't as interested in sex is... the fact that I have already been over to your house."