| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Poison_Dusk05-10-07, 11:10 PM | Am I alone in wanting to see more of the glorious Obauld Many-arrows? Like new stats, new books.... He rekindled my love of all things Orcish. |
| Lord Karsus05-10-07, 11:54 PM | -Obould's most recent stats, as per the FR timeline, can be found in the FRCS, as the FRCS was set in 1372 DR, a few years after the Hunter's Blade Trilogy. |
| Poison_Dusk05-11-07, 12:02 AM | I really don't think those stats do him justice. He stopped Wulfgar like a brick wall stops a bicycle... |
| Iakhovas05-11-07, 12:11 AM | Obould's game statistics in the FRCS are outdated and will likely be corrected in a future sourcebook.-Obould's most recent stats, as per the FR timeline, can be found in the FRCS, as the FRCS was set in 1372 DR, a few years after the Hunter's Blade Trilogy. |
| Lord Karsus05-11-07, 12:15 AM | I really don't think those stats do him justice. He stopped Wulfgar like a brick wall stops a bicycle... Obould's game statistics in the FRCS are outdated and will likely be corrected in a future sourcebook. -I'm not doubting it, but, as of now, those are his most up-to-date, canon stats. |
| Steelwind05-11-07, 02:03 AM | Its anything but official, but I posted some updated stats for him in the NPC thread II, check out the last page. |
| Zevox05-11-07, 04:47 AM | -I'm not doubting it, but, as of now, those are his most up-to-date, canon stats. And when canon and common sense oppose each other, you side with...? Zevox |
| Stigger05-11-07, 07:43 AM | Canon of course... ;) Though you're not alone... I seem to recall a certain poster by the name of Creyzi who's rather obsessed with him. |
| Mindolin05-11-07, 08:42 AM | The thing is that Wulfgar was about level 9, while Obould was 16 or so. Thus, Obould is perfectly capable of stopping Wulfgar as "a brick wall stops a bicycle." |
| MarkusTay6305-11-07, 09:26 AM | The Obould in the FRCS is obviously the older version, right after he got booted from Citadel Felbarr. There is no mention of the events of Hunter's Blade, and even alludes to the 'upcoming' events. Hello, my name is... Mark... and I'm... An Orcaholic! ;) |
| Xavier_of_Cormyr05-11-07, 09:35 AM | You have to keep in mind that although the FRCS is listed as 1372, the book itself was written before the Hunter's Blade trilogy. |
| Stigger05-11-07, 09:40 AM | *bites tongue over sourcebook invalidation that post-dates certain events* |
| Lord Karsus05-11-07, 10:11 AM | You have to keep in mind that although the FRCS is listed as 1372, the book itself was written before the Hunter's Blade trilogy. -Salvatore should stop being such a prima donna then, and start writing in the present, and not the past, if he wants to drastically alter Faerūn, then. I'll restate myself again, since I am such a stickler on this. In Realmsian continuity, Oboulds stats in the FRCS are his most recent stats. There is no mention of the events of Hunter's Blade, and even alludes to the 'upcoming' events. -What's to say that in DR 1372, Obould is plotting to take over the north again, after, for whatever the reasons, failing to secure all of it the first tie? And when canon and common sense oppose each other, you side with...? -Why does there need to be such distinctions? What is to say, firstly, that all of the enhancement bonuses on Obould were perminent? Thus, the stats he has can be quite valid. What is to say that he needs the same exact equipment? Thus, his equipment list can be quite valid. In the three years between DR 1369 and DR 1372, a great deal of things could have happened. Would it be that much of a stretch to say that in that timespan, Obould, for whatever the reason, lost hold of his "kingdom", and as of DR 1372, he is plotting to take everything over again? Not really. Sure, that situation isn't really listed in official sources, per se, but at least I am reconciling two different canons into something bearing a great sembalance to "making sense". |
| Poison_Dusk05-11-07, 10:49 AM | This is just more to support the idea of a book about orcs! |
| MarkusTay6305-11-07, 10:49 AM | -What's to say that in DR 1372, Obould is plotting to take over the north again, after, for whatever the reasons, failing to secure all of it the first tie? Hey, show a little love for the guy who made Forgotten Realms a household word. ;) Anyhow, printing press technology is very archaic in Faerūn. In fact, I'm not even sure if it exists outside of Kara-Tur. Think about how LONG that would take... unless they made a deal with Aurora to send the manuscripts through... Anyway, my point is that informaton in the realms is a lot slower to get around then in the RW. They don't have an Internet.. hell, they don't even have a pony express! So by the time the scribes at Candlekeep get their information from their field sources, and print up all the material for distribution in places like waterdeep, it's already a couple of years out-of-date. So even though Ye Olde Guide to the Realms came out in 1373, the information contained therein was old. Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it! :P |
| Stigger05-11-07, 10:55 AM | I feel no love for anyone but myself and my wife... all others simply exist for my own personal gratification. :tongue: :D Bards and Harpers should be fulfilling the function of the pony express... if you've read The Lost Library of Cormanthyr, you should know that there are tons of ways that information can be transmitted nearly instantaneously across vast distances, particularly of a scholarly stripe. Add in things like teleportation, portals, backroads/crossroads, and it only gets worse for your arguement. And as far as I'm aware, Lantan and Waterdeep both have at least primitive printing presses. |
| ShadezofDis05-11-07, 11:18 AM | I'm more in LK's camp. Further, if his "enhancements" came from Gruumsh then his defeat pretty much ensures the revocation of those "enhancements" because Gruumsh isn't one known for accepting failure. |
| Lord Karsus05-11-07, 01:49 PM | Hey, show a little love for the guy who made Forgotten Realms a household word. ;) -No, no I will not! :P -Most everyone knows my position on that one, anyway... |
| Francius05-11-07, 03:29 PM | Am I alone in wanting to see more of the glorious Obauld Many-arrows? No, you're not. I love Drizz't and I consider Obould Many-Arrows one of the best villains of his rogues' gallery that make the dark Elf who he is. Besides, the two have an unsettled bill still to take care of since their showdown in the "The Two Swords" book was very short and unsatisfying. The expectation of a momentous battle between Gruumsh enhanced King Obould Many-Arrows and Drizzt Do'Urden was lost in a skirmish that lasted but a few moments. My hopes are renewed, though. The Orc-King (the first book in a new trilogy concerning Drizz't) is coming this September and R.A.Salvatore added that there are still a whole lot of stories he has to tell about the drow and his companions. |
| Poison_Dusk05-11-07, 03:37 PM | Obauld is one villian I hope to never see die. |
| MarkusTay6305-11-07, 05:18 PM | I feel no love for anyone but myself and my wife... all others simply exist for my own personal gratification. :tongue: :D Bards and Harpers should be fulfilling the function of the pony express... if you've read The Lost Library of Cormanthyr, you should know that there are tons of ways that information can be transmitted nearly instantaneously across vast distances, particularly of a scholarly stripe. Add in things like teleportation, portals, backroads/crossroads, and it only gets worse for your arguement. And as far as I'm aware, Lantan and Waterdeep both have at least primitive printing presses.I liked that one part in Blackstaff, where Khelben finds Elminster reading in HIS library (I think). They both have a door in their towers that lead to the 'library', so basically they share expenses AND libraries, how COOL is that? :D I heard the ones in Lantan are only used to print a certain kind of magazine... you know... the ones with nakit halflings and half-drow Loviatar worshippers? ;) |
| Lord Karsus05-11-07, 05:26 PM | -Elminster very much is the Yang to Khelben's Yin. |
| Stigger05-11-07, 06:08 PM | Wonder where I get a subscription to that magazine then... |
| Francius05-11-07, 07:37 PM | Obauld is one villian I hope to never see die. I can't guarantee on that - nor can R.A.Salvatore. :D |
| Steelwind05-12-07, 01:50 AM | You know Im not 100% sure, maybe 90%, but I think that The Two Swords ended in 1371 DR. That would only be a year before the FRCS, not that it makes much difference in this arguement. All we can hope for is loose ends to be tied up in The Orc King. |
| Stigger05-12-07, 02:05 AM | I bet good old Kelemvor could promise us that Obould dies at some point... the sooner the better... ;) |
| Aegis_Chiron05-12-07, 03:45 AM | Obauld is one villian I hope to never see die. Somewhere I read a post attributed to Greenwood that states that Manshoon was supposed to be one of those great villians that never dies, just has a temporary setback. Then someone from TSR (yes, it was that long ago!!) decided he had to die. That began the whole chain of events leading to stasis clones and the Manshoon clone wars. It is a huge mistake really... The best baddies never die, they just know when to change plans. |
| MarkusTay6305-12-07, 02:01 PM | You know Im not 100% sure, maybe 90%, but I think that The Two Swords ended in 1371 DR. That would only be a year, not that it makes much difference in this arguement. All we can hope for is loose ends to be tied up in The Orc King.I'm fairly certain that it's 1375 now, so that gives us plenty of time for a trilogy (or two). The current stats are outdated, and thats the 'official' word on it; end of story. The best baddies never die, they just know when to change plans.I think every time someone in charge makes a major 'change' to FR, they must have broke up with their girlfriend or something and they are just pi$$ed off at the world. The ToT - someone caught their wife cheating with Ed Greenwood. ;) I'm fairly certain the decision to include the Tree was after the infamous 'Christmas Party' at WotC, and everyone was feeling horrible the next day. :rolleyes: <That must be the case, since NO-ONE remembers making that decision themselves> |
| Xavier_of_Cormyr05-12-07, 02:06 PM | As I've said in the past, WotC should put out a FR newsletter of sorts... an yearly addition to the FRCS to cover all the changes that have taken place in the novels. And to hit another subject, I've heard people actually saying that Obould is the chosen of Gruumsh... ol' one eye doesn't strike me as the type of god to lend some of his divine spark to a mortal... |
| Steelwind05-12-07, 02:34 PM | Not a definitive answer, but take it how you will. From "The Lone Drow", Obould talking to one of his shamans about all his new magical armor/equipment that has been given to him, specifically his new helm. "Glassteel" Arganth explained to the great orc. "No spear will pierce it. Not even a great dwarven crossbow could drive a bolt through it." Arganth held up a scarf laced with metal. "Wrap this around your neck and the helmet will settle upon it, there will be no opening." Obould narrowed his eyes. "You doubt my ability?" he demanded. "There can be no opening," Arganth bravely replied. "Obould is the hope of Gruumsh! Obould is chosen." "And Gruumsh will punish Arganth if Obould fails?" the orc king asked. "Obould will not fail," the shaman replied. |
| MarkusTay6305-12-07, 02:49 PM | As much as I would like to think that Obould IS the chosen of Gruumsh, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. Obould wants to build a kingdom, and make treaties with humans and dwarves... perhaps even eventually trade with them. That is not in keeping with Gruumsh's dogma. Gruumsh likes when all of his people band together every 20 years or so and come storming out of the mountains in a horde and kill everything in sight. Sitting down and 'having tea' with Alustriel just doesn't work for Gruumsh. |
| Lord Karsus05-12-07, 06:41 PM | The current stats are outdated, and thats the 'official' word on it; end of story. -I'm sorry, but it's as clear as day that in DR 1372, Obould's stats were [Stats from the FRCS]. End of story. I'm fairly certain the decision to include the Tree was after the infamous 'Christmas Party' at WotC, and everyone was feeling horrible the next day. :rolleyes: <That must be the case, since NO-ONE remembers making that decision themselves> -Alcohol explains it all... |
| MarkusTay6305-12-07, 08:19 PM | -I'm sorry, but it's as clear as day that in DR 1372, Obould's stats were [Stats from the FRCS]. End of story.So I guess you've never heard the term 'Errata'? ;) It must be nice to admire the great folks at WotC SO much that you consider them infallible. :P Just messin' with ya', LK. But it HAS been clearly stated (by official-type folks) that his stats WILL change with the next relative sourcebook. He WILL NOT go back to the way he was after his 'augmentation', and a newer, more powerful Obould WILL be around in '72. He might die, but he WON'T be down-graded. Those stats are useful for anyone running an FR campaign BEFORE the Hunter's Blade trilogy, despite the obvious anomaly in dates. Personally, I'd rather see people 'correct' the past then force folks into a certain path for the future. Thats why I won't read those Cormanthor novels... they haven't happened yet and therefore are TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. Now someone has got to figure out what happened to all those friendly DROW living in the forest AND the city. :nonono: |
| Stigger05-12-07, 09:12 PM | It isn't a case of errata, its a case of an certain person completely ignoring the lore when describing events in a published form... think I'm gonna kill him off the way my first character ever died... in an avalanche that happened at random. Just thinking about that prick of a DM makes my blood pressure rise... |
| Lord Karsus05-12-07, 10:33 PM | So I guess you've never heard the term 'Errata'? ;) -There is no errata, though! :P But it HAS been clearly stated (by official-type folks) that his stats WILL change with the next relative sourcebook. He WILL NOT go back to the way he was after his 'augmentation', and a newer, more powerful Obould WILL be around in '72. He might die, but he WON'T be down-graded. Those stats are useful for anyone running an FR campaign BEFORE the Hunter's Blade trilogy, despite the obvious anomaly in dates. -See, that's good, and bad. It's good that the problem will be fixed, but at the same time, it gets me angry that "everyone" is kowtowing to the problem, you know? Now someone has got to figure out what happened to all those friendly DROW living in the forest AND the city. :nonono: -They left...Didn't you hear? Took a spelljammer straight to Osse as the war started brewing. It isn't a case of errata, its a case of an certain person completely ignoring the lore when describing events in a published form... think I'm gonna kill him off the way my first character ever died... in an avalanche that happened at random. -I like that...:) |
| Steelwind05-13-07, 12:33 AM | LK, I'll give you one thing bro, you have conviction. But in regards to the Oboulds stats issue, really the matter is negligible as a charecters stats are an abstract repersentation of said charecter and it only really matters when it comes to our own personal campaigns. So in the end wether you use the official stats from the FRCS or more of a repersentation of him from the hunters blade trilogy is all a matter of personal choice. |
| MarkusTay6305-13-07, 12:52 AM | Yes, and I've seen almost every other author bend or break the rules - casting unheard of spells, or magic that should have been too high level for them. As sorry as I am for what I am about to say... Ed himself has 'stretched' the D&D rules on a number of occasions. They're novels, and the sole purpose of them is to provide us with entertainment about a world we love. Just stories and nothing more. It wouldn't be very interesting if Khelben was in the middle of casting his ELVEN High Magic Ritual, and all of a sudden he started going through his pockets and muttering "damn, I thought I had some... must of left it in my other cloak. HEY! DOES ANYONE HERE HAVE ANY BAT GUANO!? NO? SHI... Okay... I'll be right back, I just gotta run to Chult for a sec..." I've yet to see any mage use a material component... even the authors think the magic system in D&D sucks. :P "Sorry, I'd cast a spell to help you, but I seem to have forgotten it..." :rolleyes: |
| Stigger05-13-07, 02:53 AM | <snip>... They're novels, and the sole purpose of them is to provide us with entertainment about a world we love. Just stories and nothing more. That wouldn't be such a problem if we didn't have to swallow them as canon... but alas, sadly, unfortunately, lamentably, they are canon. Which is the intolerable part of it. It wouldn't be that hard to open up a book, turn to the index, look up pivotal person, and then use it as a guideline... if I can bother doing it for something as low scale as my own home campaign, you'd think someone else could do it for something that's going to end up canon... |
| Poison_Dusk05-14-07, 11:54 PM | I've yet to see any mage use a material component... even the authors think the magic system in D&D sucks. :P You must not have read the War of the Spider Queen series. Gromph and Phearun use them with evrey spell. EDIT: Gromph is a close second for my Favorite Realms Secondary Character Award. |
| MarkusTay6305-15-07, 11:32 AM | You must not have read the War of the Spider Queen series. Gromph and Phearun use them with evrey spell. EDIT: Gromph is a close second for my Favorite Realms Secondary Character Award.I did read that series, and you are quite correct. That was the exception, I supppose. The fact the Phaerun was able to cast a certain spell over and over again was a just a tad 'off', but I will give the author credit for at least mentioning he had a 'limit'. I like Gromph myself, I wish he and El could become friends. I wouldn't mind at all seeing him in a Wizard's Three article. Oh... Wait... thats NEVER gonna happen again... :( |
| souldnce905-25-07, 02:08 AM | I think kingdoms should be sending ambassidors to King Obauld. Drizzt is a jerk for trying to stop Obauld and so is everyone else who treats Orcs like dirt. They're just trying to make a place in the world like anyone else. Why are Orcs always getting the short end of the stick and demonic evil bastards like drow are more favored then surface elves. It just isn't fair! My group had an Orc escort through Obould's territory and he was really nice! Even helped us kill a Hell Cat that had been stalking us for weeks. We happen to be in Mithril Hall at the moment and if I run across Drizzt I'm going to give him a piece of my mind. Of all people he should know better then to judge someone just because of their race. |
| Zevox05-25-07, 02:42 AM | They're just trying to make a place in the world like anyone else. By slaughter whole human cities and making war on a major Dwarven Citadel to claim those lands as their own? Yeah, real mystery why Drizzt might actually want them gone, rather than just give them what they want. Why are Orcs always getting the short end of the stick and demonic evil bastards like drow are more favored then surface elves. Last time I checked, the only Drow even close to being widely accepted on the surface was Drizzt. Even Eilistraeeans tend to avoid the settlements of other races outside the Underdark. Normally, Drow get killed on sight when surfacers see them. As for why Orcs get the short end of the stick, the whole "pillaging and murdering" thing they have a tendency to do might have something to do with it. You know, more or less the same reason why Drow would get the same treatment? Zevox |
| souldnce905-25-07, 04:28 AM | You racist! :P As far as the drow go, I wasn't talking specifically in game, I was refering to the # of Drow loving players out there compared to Orcs and other races I might add. You know what would be fun is a survey of what races and classes people choose to play. The Drizzit is still an Orc hating jerk!:D |
| Poison_Dusk05-25-07, 11:23 AM | Over all, orcs ar just too stupid to make any type of civilization work. King Obauld is the exception, and the answer to that problem. ALL HAIL KING OBAULD! I would also like to point out I am a Drizzt fan(not fanboy) and I hope the two continue to be rivals for years to come. |
| Grandmaster_Kane05-25-07, 06:33 PM | Obould is epic in my campaign 10 Fighter/12 Barbarain Chosen of Gruumsh |
| The Ubbergeek05-25-07, 06:39 PM | As much as I would like to think that Obould IS the chosen of Gruumsh, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. Obould wants to build a kingdom, and make treaties with humans and dwarves... perhaps even eventually trade with them. That is not in keeping with Gruumsh's dogma. Gruumsh likes when all of his people band together every 20 years or so and come storming out of the mountains in a horde and kill everything in sight. Sitting down and 'having tea' with Alustriel just doesn't work for Gruumsh. How about that more strategic and soldier-minded orc god under Gruumsh? That could make an interesting curve... He would make the big guy his chosen in a slow schieming to shake things a bitr in the orc world, under and above the sky.... |
| souldnce905-26-07, 08:01 AM | I've read all his stories (Drizzt that is). I like the stories, and I believe it is the third book In the Hunters 3 where he starts to question Obaulds actions. Over all he is still a jerk in that series and Obauld isn't. Go Obauld!! The Shadow Thieves support you! :P |
| The Ubbergeek05-26-07, 11:36 AM | I've read all his stories (Drizzt that is). I like the stories, and I believe it is the third book In the Hunters 3 where he starts to question Obaulds actions. Over all he is still a jerk in that series and Obauld isn't. Go Obauld!! The Shadow Thieves support you! :P Obauld may be an old fox and wiser and more subtile than his kind, he remains an orc - don't expect an Enlighted Ruler. Hence why Drizzt's opposition - Obauld just took a more subtile path to conquest.... |
| ShadezofDis05-26-07, 02:02 PM | I've read all his stories (Drizzt that is). I like the stories, and I believe it is the third book In the Hunters 3 where he starts to question Obaulds actions. Over all he is still a jerk in that series and Obauld isn't. Go Obauld!! The Shadow Thieves support you! :P Obauld was trying to kill his friends. . . in fact Drizzt thought he did kill one of his closest friends. You have a strange definition of jerk man. And the Shadow Thieves are larcinous, muderous, back stabbing criminals. . . which should fit under the definition of jerk. |
| Poison_Dusk05-26-07, 05:40 PM | So King Obauld had to kill some people to attain what he has. Humans and elves, and some dwarves as well, have been doing it you centuries and more. You don't make an omelet without killing a few innocents. |
| Lord Karsus05-26-07, 07:51 PM | -Oh, I'm not even going to bother responding. |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 08:01 PM | Orcs, by far and large, slaughter innocents and other civilized races first, before even trying to establish trade. They don't even make any useful crafts with which to trade. They are CE for a reason. CE is a bad start. The hit to Int only makes it worse. |
| The Ubbergeek05-26-07, 08:13 PM | Indeed - the common orc is seen as a blight by the people, and for good reasons. This is not Warcraft, buddy... |
| Poison_Dusk05-26-07, 08:39 PM | I would expect as much to come from narrow minded humans. |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 08:41 PM | How dare you. *Teleports back to Evermeet to prepare a massive Elven High Magic curse.* |
| Lord Karsus05-26-07, 08:52 PM | -I call Center! :D ::Follow's closely behind :: |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 08:56 PM | *Turns to look over shoulder, arches eyebrow.* Seniority, good lad, seniority... |
| Lord Karsus05-26-07, 09:00 PM | -Seniority my... :: Mumbles something :: |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 09:04 PM | Stir that potion while I watch Chris Evans - I mean, Fantastic Four... |
| souldnce905-26-07, 09:31 PM | Elves! Shoulda known, stuck up xenophobes. Hey Poison-dusk why do you have to bring Humans up like that? I was on your side. :weep: Oh and ShadezofDis, yup that about sums up the Shadow Thieves. So you might want to watch what you say. :shifty: Go Obauld!! :bow: |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 10:31 PM | We're elitist and cautious no stuck up and xenophobic, kthnxFINGEROFDEATH. |
| Steelwind05-26-07, 11:00 PM | souldnce9, are you telling me that if someone was trying to kill your friends and conquer your home, that you wouldnt do whatever is nessisary to stop him. While I am not a Drizzt fanboy, I do believe that, in this case anyway, he is very justified in his actions. |
| Lord Karsus05-26-07, 11:40 PM | -Whoa, whoa, whoa...Hey, '04, I've got seniority over your ass (not in the literal sense)...Get in the back of the line, I'm pulling rank. |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 11:42 PM | I'm older than you! Also, an Avatar of Corellon. |
| Lord Karsus05-26-07, 11:51 PM | -Don't matter. I'm '03. You're '04. You should hang out in the Rec-Room. We do fun things there. -Also, I'm Karsus, and I have a cult, and a legion of covert operatives willing to do my bidding. |
| Zevox05-26-07, 11:58 PM | I would expect as much to come from narrow minded humans. This coming from a guy who defends Orcs, the race that barely has a mind to begin with, and certainly can't by any means be said to have it very open to any ideas outside of those contained Gruumsh's dogma. I'd laugh, but its more sad than funny. Zevox |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 12:02 AM | Exactly, Zevox. -Don't matter. I'm '03. You're '04. You should hang out in the Rec-Room. We do fun things there. What's that? -Also, I'm Karsus, and I have a cult, and a legion of covert operatives willing to do my bidding. Corellon's still way cooler. |
| souldnce905-27-07, 12:20 AM | Whoa there Dan, I was just kidding, no need to get violent. I like elves too:D please don't direct those nasty spells at me. Steelwind, well I live in Waterdeep, and if that wounderful city were to be invaded I would do one of two things. One stay and take advantage of the situation or two leave. There are plenty of places to go :D Amn, Baldur's Gate, Calimshan, Cormyr, etc. My father can take care of himself, and if he were to be killed the murderer would have more then little ol' me to deal with. So no I wouldn't stick around and try to avenge him especially if it is to dangerous. Sure I would morn him, but I wouldn't expect him to avenge me. There is one person to take care of in life and that is me. :P |
| souldnce905-27-07, 12:25 AM | Sorry Dusk I'm gonna have to bail on this argument, it is getting too dangerous. Good Luck :hides: |
| Lord Karsus05-27-07, 12:31 AM | What's that? -It's one of the best places on these message boards. It's like the second or third section on the scroll-down index of message board topics. Everyone, for the most part, is elitist, cynical, and judgemental. You'd like it there. Corellon's still way cooler. -Me and Corellon were drinking buddies, back at Princeton. |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 12:35 AM | -It's one of the best places on these message boards. It's like the second or third section on the scroll-down index of message board topics. Everyone, for the most part, is elitist, cynical, and judgemental. You'd like it there. You spelled judgmental wrong. -Me and Corellon were drinking buddies, back at Princeton. I'm hopefully going there for my doctorate! I'll learn about ALL OF REALITY. |
| Lord Karsus05-27-07, 12:38 AM | You spelled judgmental wrong. -Don't be so judgmental. |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 12:43 AM | But I love it so. |
| Steelwind05-27-07, 02:10 AM | Steelwind, well I live in Waterdeep, and if that wounderful city were to be invaded I would do one of two things. One stay and take advantage of the situation or two leave. There are plenty of places to go :D Amn, Baldur's Gate, Calimshan, Cormyr, etc. My father can take care of himself, and if he were to be killed the murderer would have more then little ol' me to deal with. So no I wouldn't stick around and try to avenge him especially if it is to dangerous. Sure I would morn him, but I wouldn't expect him to avenge me. There is one person to take care of in life and that is me. :P Wow, if thats true then I feel sorry for you. Never knowing what true friendship is. |
| souldnce905-27-07, 02:28 AM | Bah! You'll never understand. What are you going to do when you do lose your precious friends? Avenge them? Then what? You'll be all alone. Friends are fleeting. You make them as ya need them. (Actually I don't feel this way at all :) just having fun with my current character) :dancin: |
| ShadezofDis05-27-07, 09:19 PM | Oh and ShadezofDis, yup that about sums up the Shadow Thieves. So you might want to watch what you say. :shifty: Heh, I'll just hang a banner in Waterdeep telling the Shadow Thieves what I think of them. :) |
| Poison_Dusk05-27-07, 09:28 PM | You should jump over to this thread... more fools that think they are better than Orcs. Though us Lizardfolk are better than all of you... |
| ShadezofDis05-27-07, 09:37 PM | You should jump over to this thread... more fools that think they are better than Orcs. Though us Lizardfolk are better than all of you... Hmmm. . . I was gonna make a cold blooded comment (ie. cold blood < warm blood) but then I wasn't totally sure lizardfolk were cold blooded. I mean, they should be, but are they? I'm to lazy to look it up. :) |
| souldnce905-28-07, 02:43 AM | Ha I stole your signature! Don't mess with the Shadow Guild!!! |
| Poison_Dusk05-28-07, 02:47 AM | LOL @ Shade. We are not always sure ourselves.... |
| souldnce905-28-07, 03:00 AM | Aww crud! Didn't work! Well watch your back anyway!:shifty: |
| Kantor Brightblade05-28-07, 06:27 PM | First of all, I am here to claim seniority. I'm '01...so, put that in your pipe and puff. Secondly, back to the original point. King Obould has been on many occasions been referenced as a rare Orc. The intelligence, strategy, keen sense of his own worth. Things of that nature. Read what Gerti and the Frosties had to say about it, they were afraid of him to the point that they almost completley left Obould on his own for the Mithril Hall invasion.....if it weren't for those damn Pegasi. Lastly, I personally think that directions the books are going are marvelous. First, it was Artemis as the Yin to Drizzt's Yang. Then, the internal Companions conflicts(i.e...Cattie Brie, Wulfgar) Now, there is the biggest and baddest of them all to come a knockin' on Bruenor's door. If Obould is only TEMPORARILLY enhanced, he surely is the closest thing to a Chosen Gruumsh has, and CANNOT be seen as a failure simply because them lowly Dwarves bought a Masterlock Door. He's camping, waiting, and using his *cough* gods given rare intelligence to make his mark on the Silver Marches. The stats are one thing, dates correct or no. Establishing the character is more important to whether or not his INT, CHA and STR are relevant to what Page # this or Page # that say. The fact that Obould represents what he represents is more important than canonical stats.....of which will change anyway. Have fun storming the castle! |
| Lord Karsus05-28-07, 06:32 PM | First of all, I am here to claim seniority. I'm '01...so, put that in your pipe and puff. -You are also Registered. I'm so sorry for you... |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 06:32 PM | I'm still the best High Mage. *Shows off his levels.* |
| Kantor Brightblade05-28-07, 06:36 PM | Back when I first joined, if memory serves, there were no ranks among posters. Just the date in which you Registered. I used to be fairly involved in debates and posts. I got away from the world for a while. But with the recent novels and my renewed interest in DND I thought I'd see what was what. Don't think that just because Im 'registered' means I can't hand you some useful info. Just because I'm old doesn't make me useless....you little whippersnappers should show some respect ...searches for dentures... |
| Lord Karsus05-28-07, 06:44 PM | -Being Registered means bad things...I'll watch out for you, though. With my considerable influence, you should be fine. |
| Kantor Brightblade05-28-07, 06:47 PM | Oy! Now ye have me fearin' for me life. What praytell is so bad about it? I guess I didn't know there was some sort of choice... |
| Lord Karsus05-28-07, 06:51 PM | -Shh! Stop talking about it. Then they will know that we know...Just stick with me, and everything will be fine. |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 09:56 PM | Just stick with us Sun Elves. We know best. |
| souldnce905-29-07, 12:05 AM | Hey! Rumors have it ShadezofDis was attacked by the Shadow Thieves. I hope he is ok! :angel: |
| Stigger05-29-07, 04:18 AM | What was that quote... reports of demise being greatly exhaggerated... or something to that effect... |
| ShadezofDis05-29-07, 10:00 AM | Hey! Rumors have it ShadezofDis was attacked by the Shadow Thieves. I hope he is ok! :angel: Yep, not a problem. A little divine intervention goes a long way. :D Don't worry guys, someday I'll get enough levels to take care of myself. ;) What was that quote... reports of demise being greatly exhaggerated... or something to that effect... "Reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated." Last but not least, how bout we do a level per hundred posts? Seems like as valid a system as any. ;) |
| Poison_Dusk05-29-07, 10:14 AM | Anyhow, lets get back to topic. King Obauld rules. |
| ShadezofDis05-29-07, 10:30 AM | Anyhow, lets get back to topic. King Obauld rules. ...about a couple thousand orcs and MILLIONS of fleas! :rimshot: |
| Grandmaster_Kane05-29-07, 03:39 PM | ...about a couple thousand orcs and MILLIONS of fleas! :rimshot: Wow i loled for about a solid 3 mintues from that |
| MarkusTay6305-29-07, 04:01 PM | Ya know, for some reason when I think of the whole good vs. Evil thing I think of the sitcom Ugly Betty. Beautiful people (Gold Elves?) can be forgiven their atrocities, yet Ugly folks cannot? The Orcs have been the victims just as often as the perpetrators in most cases (read the Netheril boxed set), yet whenever they try to establish a land of their own they are bashed for it. The Elves tore the planet apart and killed millions to create themselves a homeland, and no-one holds them accountable. The Orcs raid/destroy a few towns, all for the sake of fairness, and they get chastised for it. Since the very beginning, Orcs have been denied their right to own territory, yet humans, Elves, and even Dwarves just setup shop whereever they feel like, and nobody bats an eye. The lands encompassing MOST of the Silver Marches belonged to Orc tribes thousands of years ago. It was stolen from them by human tribes, and they were driven into the mountains. The Netherese then could not even tolerate this pathetic existance, and attempted genocide against them. Genocide is an ugly word, but against an 'ugly' race it is condolable? There is absolutely NOTHING Orcs have done that hasn't been done by nearly every single other race. In the RW, everyone is given a chance. At least wait and see what Obould will do next, before attacking him. Don't hold the sins of the past against them... if we always did that then the Elves should be the first to go. "You cannot hold a child responsible for the sins of the father." |
| ShadezofDis05-29-07, 04:13 PM | Wow i loled for about a solid 3 mintues from that Thank you, thank you. I'm here Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. ...and tuesdays and thursdays ...likely saturday and sunday too ;) |
| ShadezofDis05-29-07, 04:19 PM | The Orcs raid/destroy a few towns, all for the sake of fairness, and they get chastised for it. Since the very beginning, Orcs have been denied their right to own territory, yet humans, Elves, and even Dwarves just setup shop whereever they feel like, and nobody bats an eye. There is a duality to this. First part, by and large the "goodly" races are a lot more peaceful than orcs (in fact I'd say it's likely that orcs commit more atrocities against orcs than any other race) Second part, the "goodly" races have bigger guns. The latter is the more important aspect, as it is in most cases. |
| Lord Karsus05-29-07, 05:03 PM | Hey! Rumors have it ShadezofDis was attacked by the Shadow Thieves. I hope he is ok! :angel: Yep, not a problem. A little divine intervention goes a long way. :D Don't worry guys, someday I'll get enough levels to take care of myself. ;) -You know, I don't even remember. I must've taken my allergy medicine that night. |
| ShadezofDis05-29-07, 06:13 PM | -You know, I don't even remember. I must've taken my allergy medicine that night. Eh, I doubt you'd have noticed anyhow. A few rogues really don't attract the notice of a divine being. |
| souldnce905-29-07, 07:27 PM | Well Shadez I'm glad to see ya up and about. Apparently the rumors were false. Thank Goodness! |
| Arbourean05-29-07, 08:44 PM | The Elves tore the planet apart and killed millions to create themselves a homeland, and no-one holds them accountable. Ah, the dirty little secret of the People. |
| Ramar Aulinvox05-29-07, 09:13 PM | The lands encompassing MOST of the Silver Marches belonged to Orc tribes thousands of years ago. It was stolen from them by human tribes, and they were driven into the mountains. The Netherese then could not even tolerate this pathetic existance, and attempted genocide against them. ... Genocide is an ugly word, but against an 'ugly' race it is condolable? There is absolutely NOTHING Orcs have done that hasn't been done by nearly every single other race. ... In the RW, everyone is given a chance. At least wait and see what Obould will do next, before attacking him. Don't hold the sins of the past against them... if we always did that then the Elves should be the first to go. In keeping with the "sins of the father" idea, how can you blame the current residents of the Silver Marches for the acquisition of the land from the orcs thousands of years ago. As to the RW-"wait and see" approach, there is no wait and see. Obould invaded and is holding a contested land. Just b/c you fortify the land doesn't mean you get to keep it [images of Omaha beach flash into my mind]. While Obould is trying something that no other orc in history has really tried before, he is going about it like a zhent and I don't think anyone would say they are good guys. |
| GothicDan05-29-07, 09:37 PM | Ya know, for some reason when I think of the whole good vs. Evil thing I think of the sitcom Ugly Betty. Good vs. Evil doesn't really exist in any monolithic way in the Realms, because there's no overriding religious culture (and 'evil' is defined by religion, as opposed to 'bad'). It's more one culture versus another. Beautiful people (Gold Elves?) can be forgiven their atrocities, yet Ugly folks cannot? First of all, who is forgiving them? They certain't aren't forgiving themselves. The Evermeet supplement makes this quite clear, when one Moon Elf says concerning the Sun Elven murder of Zaor: "We have forgiven them, but they'll never forgive themselves." Fear of past mistakes should be no reason not to try to improve the future, which is what Sun Elves try to do. The Orcs have been the victims just as often as the perpetrators in most cases (read the Netheril boxed set), I do believe the Orcish hordes were raiding human societies before Ioulaum went on his enraged spell-purge. yet whenever they try to establish a land of their own they are bashed for it. It'd be best to give examples of this, and the events both leading up to their attempts and those making up their attempted acitons. The Elves tore the planet apart and killed millions to create themselves a homeland, and no-one holds them accountable. The Elves probably do. Who else actually even knows for certain what happened in the Sundering? And I do not think the Elves really had any idea what was going to happen when they cast the ritual for a homeland - because at the time it was cast, Elves were one of the most dominant races in Faerun, which means a lot of their OWN people were killed. Do you know if any indicators of the Elves knowing this geographical disaster would result from their attempt to raise/place/create an island nation thousand of miles to the west of the continent? The Orcs raid/destroy a few towns, all for the sake of fairness, and they get chastised for it. Where is it stated that the Orcs had any sort of overarching cultural 'fairness' in mind? Fairness is defined by culture. It wasn't fair to the people they slew. And throughout many cultures, it's generally the one who instigates aggressions that is considered 'at fault' (not always, but usually). Where are the cases of the humans driving out the Orcs without the Orcs first making aggressive overtures? Since the very beginning, Orcs have been denied their right to own territory, yet humans, Elves, and even Dwarves just setup shop whereever they feel like, and nobody bats an eye. Examples of cases where Orcs were denied doing so would be good - as well as, again, specific documentation of the events surrounding these attempts. The lands encompassing MOST of the Silver Marches belonged to Orc tribes thousands of years ago. It was stolen from them by human tribes, and they were driven into the mountains. The Netherese then could not even tolerate this pathetic existance, and attempted genocide against them. Sources? (Not saying you're wrong, I just don't remember reading that.) And what exactly is said concerning these initial encounters, and the natives of the land? The Silver Marches were largely the domains of Elves for millennia before Netheril, with humanity supposedly living in clannish, uncivilized tribes/bands throughout the continent. What is the most ancient specific documentation we have of Orcish vs. Human presence in the area? So far, dragons, giants, and Elves are older than all in this area. Genocide is an ugly word, but against an 'ugly' race it is condolable? There is absolutely NOTHING Orcs have done that hasn't been done by nearly every single other race. It's a matter of frequency. That being said... As much as people hate to admit it, it's biologically natural (in our world, at least) for people to have reactions to others based on appearance (it's built into our DNA). While that's no excuse for continuing to act in such a manner, it's an explanation. People need to work through instinct to overcome this tendency. In the RW, everyone is given a chance. At least wait and see what Obould will do next, before attacking him. Don't hold the sins of the past against them... if we always did that then the Elves should be the first to go. Who are 'we'? The vast majority of Elves have no interaction with humans (living in Evermeet), and those Elves in Faerun itself have had primarily peaceful relations with humanity in the past 1,500 years (since the fall of Netheril - most cultures only arose from that point and onward). And I'll point out that Sembia never lost their racism towards Elves. "You cannot hold a child responsible for the sins of the father." Unless the father raises the child in the same manner. So, one would have to kill the father (and other parents and relatives) in order to even have newborn Orcs that have a chance at not following in their parents' footsteps. ... Which is largely what I was talking about. ;) The Odonti, for example, weren't raised by your typical Gruumsh-worshipping Orcs. (Both Negative and Positive points are ALWAYS topical for any argument/debate. ;) ) |
| creyzi4zb1205-29-07, 10:15 PM | -Drow and Gold Elves are more evil than orcs, becuase they kill for pleasure. They don't just kill, but they lie, they deceive others. You can't base good and evilness of something by murder alone, there are many more forms of evil. Like the spells the drow and gold elves conjure, the demons they make contact with. That is pure evil. Orcs are just stupid, making them a bit innocent on the sinning side. -And I really don't think orcs have been denied of land. There has been prrof however that they WERE GIVEN RIGHTS TO OWN LAND. (By Alustriel of course). Plus Alustriel is a chosen of Mystra, thus the orc owning the land means that they owned the land through fair means. If Alustriel just wanted it coz she was worried then she's afraid of Obould. She really isn't afraid of Obould is she? -Obould's gonna team up with Drizzt on the next book. There was a hint to it. |
| Poison_Dusk05-29-07, 10:39 PM | -Obould's gonna team up with Drizzt on the next book. There was a hint to it. What hint? I never saw such.. |
| GothicDan05-29-07, 11:12 PM | -Drow and Gold Elves are more evil than orcs, becuase they kill for pleasure. The former, yes. Where do you get the idea of the latter? And note that not even all Drow kill for pleasure. They don't just kill, but they lie, they deceive others. Neither lying or deceiving by default are Evil or Good according to D&D's rules. And this isn't the case with real life cultures, either. In the Mahabharata, the heroes use deception and lies REPEATEDLY to accomplish their goals. You can't base good and evilness of something by murder alone, there are many more forms of evil. No, but murder (that is, the killing of someone for no altruistic gain) is defined as Evil in D&D. Like the spells the drow and gold elves conjure, the demons they make contact with. That is pure evil. Which spells? And note that the Gold Elves very rarely consort with demons. The reason why such things are so often depicted in novels is that Good vs. Evil conflicts are more interesting to most to read than ones that depict your typical peaceful, down-to-earth Sun Elf. Statisically and lore-wise, Sun Elves are still by far and large, the vast majority, Good. Though they have slightly more Lawful tendencies than other subraces. Orcs are just stupid, making them a bit innocent on the sinning side. Statistics have nothing to do with alignment. Intent and action do. And your typical Orc (-2 Int) is still as intelligent as a very stupid human. |
| Lord Karsus05-30-07, 12:26 AM | -Creyzi, stop stealing my dashes! -Anyway, concerning the Sundering, don't forget that the Elves did not intentionally destroy Faerūn. The Elven High Magi lost control of the massive amounts of spell energies that had been gathered, and each Selu'Taar who was consumed by the spell added more fuel to the fire. It was only by the extremely concentrated efforts of Starleaf, the center of the cirlcle, that the damage was contained to just shattering the continent. Though it's just speculation on my part, I believe that enough energy had been gathered to blow an entire portion of Abeir-Toril off! |
| souldnce905-30-07, 03:25 AM | What possible reason would Drizzt and Obauld have to team up for? The Giants? Another Drow invasion? If there were hints to such I don't recall reading them. You know I would love to see a civilization of good natured orcs, but I just don't see King Obauld headed in that direction. Even if Obauld did create some kind of kingdom, it would only last for as long as he lived if not shorter. Afterwards it would crumble into the dust of time. Obauld is the anomaly amongst orcs, and may have great aspirations, but they are doomed to failure. Unless by some miracle all orcs become blessed with some kind of cultural shift in their nature. |
| Stigger05-30-07, 03:42 AM | Think that's more Creyzi's wishful thinking more than anything else... but you never know really. |
| The Ubbergeek05-30-07, 12:23 PM | At best, Obauld want a more Lawfull, organised and disciplined kingdom, and one that don't hesitate even perhaps to use human-grade 'diplomatic game'. But not an any good-er one. |
| Crust05-30-07, 01:41 PM | I think the most interesting thing that RAS is doing with Obould is that he's giving us (well, me at least) the impression that Obould could be striving for a lawful orc civilization. Maybe not good, but certainly lawful. Who cares what orcs think about morals and what's right and wrong? They're stupid orcs (and by "stupid," I mean they suffer a -2 to INT and WIS). So long as they're obeying laws, there should be no problem. The sad thing is, orcs are often chaotic evil, and that's contrary to the majority of Realms civilizations, certainly the North and the Silver Marches. Chaos just don't go. Good and evil is another discussion altogether. It's a racial thing as well. Dwarven hatred of orcs is part of the core material in the PHB. They get a +1 racial bonus to attack orcs. That doesn't mean that dwarves will automatically attack any orcs they see, but it does suggest that dwarves won't live in harmony with orcs even if they are obeying laws. I can't imagine the dwarves of Mithril Hall being OK with orcs roaming freely about the land and being treated as equals. Obould has the right idea in mind, but I think we'll see another example of "evil devouring itself" in the near future. Obould might live, but I don't think his army will. |
| The Ubbergeek05-30-07, 07:26 PM | Sounds logical - look at our rw history; empires frequently never survived even the grandson - at best, they become separated in heir states, or just break up as soon as formed. Examples; Tamerlan, the Mongols, Alexander the Great, etc... |
| souldnce905-30-07, 08:29 PM | Haha maybe Obauld will free himself from the confines of Orc society and get adopted by good ol' King Bruenor, Another member of their heroic group. :rofl: Perhaps a few years down the road he and Catiebrie(sp?) will hook up, after Drizzt dissapears and they all think him dead. :fight!: |
| Zevox05-30-07, 11:49 PM | -Drow and Gold Elves are more evil than orcs, becuase they kill for pleasure. They don't just kill, but they lie, they deceive others. You can't base good and evilness of something by murder alone, there are many more forms of evil. Like the spells the drow and gold elves conjure, the demons they make contact with. That is pure evil. Most Drow can be described as such, yes, but not Gold Elves. An evil Gold Elf is rare. They've committed some terrible crimes in the distant past - the Sundering, the Descent, etc - but most of those were unintentional, and last I checked guilt over those events was a chief reason they're very hesitant to use High Magic any more. Gold Elves don't make contact with Fiends almost ever, either - the Fey'ri houses and the rare evil ones are the extent of it. Orcs are just stupid, making them a bit innocent on the sinning side. Hah, not even close. Stupidity helps propagate it, but the race as a whole is generally evil. They're encourage to murder, pillage, steal, and generally do whatever their brute strength will them do, by their society and religion. Thats not just a result of stupidity, but a result of them being brought up evil. -Obould's gonna team up with Drizzt on the next book. There was a hint to it. Care to cite a source on that? Last I checked, Drizzt's next book was gonna be about the Companions' journey to Gauntlgrym, in hopes that something there would help with the current situation with Obould's hoard. Zevox |
| creyzi4zb1205-31-07, 07:26 AM | -I was talking about evil in general. And elves do consort with demons. Remember Matron Baenre? She consorted with Errtu through the orders of he goddess. She even summoned more than one of Errtu's goons. -Ya I know that. "But their stupidity on the innocent side" *with fingers dancing*makes them less evil compared to those drow and gold elves. -The title of the next book is the Orc King. I took it from a news interview with Salvatore. Well he didn't really mention Obould and Drizzt teaming up, but I think it makes sense since Salvatore mentioned a drow invasion on the next book. |
| ShadezofDis05-31-07, 08:35 AM | -I was talking about evil in general. And elves do consort with demons. Remember Matron Baenre? She consorted with Errtu through the orders of he goddess. She even summoned more than one of Errtu's goons. Wow, no ones questioned that Drow are evil. Drow are not "typical" elves, they are the "evil subrace of elves". Drow elves are more evil than both Gold elves and orcs. Orcs are still more evil than Gold elves. -Ya I know that. "But their stupidity on the innocent side" *with fingers dancing*makes them less evil compared to those drow and gold elves. Nope, it really doesn't. It's not like the poor orc has no concept of the hurt he/she is causing, far from it, they engage in their activities because it does hurt others. They enjoy it, a lot. That's not a "lesser" form of evil. |
| Lord Karsus05-31-07, 11:21 AM | -Again, please stop stealing my dashes. |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 12:07 PM | - LK, you do realize that as poor an analyst and as biased as Creyzi is, these aren't your dashes, right? |
| Crust05-31-07, 12:44 PM | -Again, please stop stealing my dashes. :clap: :rofl: :clap: |
| creyzi4zb1205-31-07, 01:42 PM | -Yeah someone did question about elves being on the very evil side coz they consort through demons. :Now, the big question here comes when orcs die. Where do those brutes go to? Do they go to hell? If they uphold to the dogma of Gruumsh and honor the one eyed god, what would Gruumsh give them in return, will the orcish god teleport their souls to his paradise? Now to me, to judge evil in general is judging it from the fact about "where does the sinner go to in the afterlife?" Evil guys are destined to live a life of pain and suffering in the end. Good guys...well... :D -And I was never biased. I must however protect orcish rights in society of Faerun and make them look good because I like orcs. I was always neutral when it comes to the ration comparison. I even pointed out some orc weaknesses like being stupid, etc. and elven superiority against them. The only problem is that I'm good at it. :cool: LK: orcs just pillaged your dashes!! mwahahahaha!! |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 01:51 PM | Yeah someone did question about elves being on the very evil side coz they consort through demons. What are you talking about? No one argued about Drow. We were talking about Sun Elves. -And I was never biased. You are. You are making fallacious statements with no citations, and continue to do so (without references) even after we've said otherwise. Don't be like Markus. :p |
| creyzi4zb1205-31-07, 01:56 PM | You are making fallacious statements with no citations, and continue to do so (without references) even after we've said otherwise. Don't be like Markus. :p Namely? --Please take in mind that I am trying my best to stay neutral as possible, I've never really declared orcs as overpowered creatures, or stated that they are good or not-evil. Making mistakes doesn't mean you are biased! You are declaring something out of hand without even consorting my concepts. I say you're the one who's biased. :evillaugh: |
| Lord Karsus05-31-07, 02:40 PM | LK: orcs just pillaged your dashes!! mwahahahaha!! -I'm a quasi-deity. Orcs cannot pillage my dashes. -Now, for the final time, I will ask you to cease and desist, lest I unleash the Hands of Karsus on you. It's your call. |
| Poison_Dusk05-31-07, 02:47 PM | -Yeah -do -not -make -Karsus -angry! |
| souldnce905-31-07, 02:53 PM | Elves are evil!!!! Evilly good looking that is. My baby is going to be a half elf. Any pointers on how to woo an Elf? -Sorry LK, it is a habbit. Raised that way ya know. Here take it back. |
| Lord Karsus05-31-07, 04:35 PM | -Yeah -do -not -make -Karsus -angry! -Laugh it up. I'll unleash them on you, too. -Sorry LK, it is a habbit. Raised that way ya know. Here take it back. -Thank you. I appreciate it. |
| Poison_Dusk05-31-07, 04:55 PM | I could't resist... sorry. |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 04:58 PM | Evilly good looking that is. My baby is going to be a half elf. Any pointers on how to woo an Elf? Be an Elf. ;) Preferrably a gay male one. And call me. |
| Lord Karsus05-31-07, 05:06 PM | Be an Elf. ;) Preferrably a gay male one. And call me. -And, when two gay males figure out how to biologically concieve a baby without using magic, call me. |
| souldnce905-31-07, 05:12 PM | Actually I was thinking of playing a gay male elf Bard. It was going to be an adventuring party of Bards. We just can't find anyone who is wanting to DM, we all want to play. :weep: |
| Tyberian05-31-07, 05:29 PM | -Yeah someone did question about elves being on the very evil side coz they consort through demons. :Now, the big question here comes when orcs die. Where do those brutes go to? Do they go to hell? If they uphold to the dogma of Gruumsh and honor the one eyed god, what would Gruumsh give them in return, will the orcish god teleport their souls to his paradise? Now to me, to judge evil in general is judging it from the fact about "where does the sinner go to in the afterlife?" Evil guys are destined to live a life of pain and suffering in the end. Good guys...well... :D -And I was never biased. I must however protect orcish rights in society of Faerun and make them look good because I like orcs. I was always neutral when it comes to the ration comparison. I even pointed out some orc weaknesses like being stupid, etc. and elven superiority against them. The only problem is that I'm good at it. :cool: LK: orcs just pillaged your dashes!! mwahahahaha!! Orcs go to Nishrek, where they fight battlews everyday and wake up healed the next morning to fight again, just like the warriors due in Valhalla. Come to think of it, Odin is a one eyed, spear wielding god of war and his son is one of the strongest creatures in existence. Once again, I make my point that the orcs and gruumsh are fallout from a post ragnarok apocalypse.:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 05:33 PM | Don't compare Gruumsh to Odin. Odin gave up his eye for ultimate wisdom, and overall preferred cunning and trickery to direct combat. *Norse fanatic.* |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 05:34 PM | According to Ed, in the Realms, even undead can have children with enough magic. ;) |
| Tyberian05-31-07, 05:47 PM | Don't compare Gruumsh to Odin. Odin gave up his eye for ultimate wisdom, and overall preferred cunning and trickery to direct combat. *Norse fanatic.* You misunderstand. Odin rocks, but he dies in ragnarok as does Thor. My belief is that in the apocalypse that was ragnarok, some humans were changed into orcs. Then, whether correctly or not, they were blamed for Odin's and Thor's deaths by the dwarves and elves. Banished and living away from others, they continued worshipping their dead deities, but in a form that twisted over time until the deities were reborn as gruumsh and bhaggtru. In fact, I despise those two because any deity that wishes to slaughter elves should be cool and awesome. In Deities and Demigods, gruumsh's divine rating is less than that of Moradin, and Corellon, and even Yondalla. |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 05:59 PM | Hm. I like to connect the Elves to the Norse pantheon, myself. Orcs never really featured too much in the Norse mythology. But... Then again, I'm more about canon (in game) and staying in keeping with mythological tradition (in real life). |
| Tyberian05-31-07, 06:07 PM | But... Then again, I'm more about canon (in game) and staying in keeping with mythological tradition (in real life).[/QUOTE] I concur. When I said I believe, I meant I was speculating on the thoughts going through the Gygax head when the orc pantheon was first created in the early seventies..... |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 06:10 PM | I dunno. That seems a bit of a stretch, to me. :) |
| Tyberian05-31-07, 06:16 PM | Still look at the similarities. The heads of both pantheons have one eye. THey wield spears. They are war gods. They each have a son who is one of the most powerful creatures in the multiverse. There residence is a place where warriors battle everyday and wake again each new morning, fully healed, even if they die. Those are some enormous similarities for it to be merely coincidental, don't you think? |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 06:21 PM | Actually, I can sort of see it, but not quite like you. Elves are the hated enemies of Orcs. Elves may well have arisen from a Norse pantheon or mythology. Gruumsh could be a corrupted fragment of Odin, which may be partially why the Orcs hated him so much. Though in FR canon, we know that Corellon cut off one of Gruumsh's eyes - it wasn't always like that, and he didn't lose it anywhere similar to how Odin did. |
| The Ubbergeek05-31-07, 07:42 PM | As far I know, it's more or less the same thing in Greyhawk btw. Hum... Someone asked it up, not sure if someone answered - the orc gods are in Acheron, so that's where the dead orcs go too. |
| Lord Karsus05-31-07, 08:23 PM | According to Ed, in the Realms, even undead can have children with enough magic. ;) -Well, I did specify "without magic". :cool: |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 08:46 PM | You said "biologically"! |
| The_King_in_Yellow05-31-07, 09:47 PM | Hum... Someone asked it up, not sure if someone answered - the orc gods are in Acheron, so that's where the dead orcs go too. Nishrek isn't it? Makrete Ironskull chosen of Grummsh, supported by a host of yugoloth and rakshasas. |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 09:49 PM | ... Gruumsh has no Chosen. |
| Lord Karsus05-31-07, 11:19 PM | You said "biologically"! -Yes, biologically, and without magic! :P |
| GothicDan05-31-07, 11:40 PM | Your mom's without magic. |
| Lord Karsus06-01-07, 12:07 AM | -Indeed, she is. She can't make babies, anymore, though. |
| Zevox06-01-07, 03:54 AM | -I was talking about evil in general. And elves do consort with demons. Remember Matron Baenre? She consorted with Errtu through the orders of he goddess. She even summoned more than one of Errtu's goons. And I was talking about Sun Elves, not Drow. I even preceded my argument about your statement regarding Sun Elves by saying that your statement was true as far as most Drow go. Matron Baenre was a Drow, not a Sun Elf. Now, the big question here comes when orcs die. Where do those brutes go to? Do they go to hell? If they uphold to the dogma of Gruumsh and honor the one eyed god, what would Gruumsh give them in return, will the orcish god teleport their souls to his paradise? They get the same deal as humans - if they worshiped faithfully, they go to their God's domain (Gruumsh, Bagtru, whoever). If they didn't, they get stamped into the Wall of the Faithless. If they betrayed their God, they get a punishment from Kelemvor. If they get lucky, they might get the chance to sell their souls to a Devil or get carted off in a Demon raid. Zevox |
| The_King_in_Yellow06-01-07, 05:24 PM | ... Gruumsh has no Chosen. Proxie, Chosen. It's no big deal to me really. |
| GothicDan06-01-07, 05:38 PM | It may not be to you, but both thematically and statistically they are different. Since we're not telepathic, it's best if we all try to keep to a more commonly accepted definition of words so we all know what each other is talking about. :) |
| The_King_in_Yellow06-01-07, 06:26 PM | It may not be to you, but both thematically and statistically they are different. Since we're not telepathic, it's best if we all try to keep to a more commonly accepted definition of words so we all know what each other is talking about. :) Have to disagree there, thematically there's no diffrence, both Proxy (Planescape) and Chosen represent the same theme and statiscally proxy haven't to the best of my knowledge been statted by Wotc in 3.5. But <shrugs> as you wish, same difference. |
| GothicDan06-01-07, 10:00 PM | Proxies were statted in 3E. And, no, they're different. Chosen are permanent (at least, Mystra's were); there were 3 levels of Proxies in Planescape, none of which were permanent. |
| The_King_in_Yellow06-02-07, 07:14 AM | What source are proxies in, btw? And you'll have to elaborate what you mean by permanent, because to me it makes a good fit running along the same lines of divinely infused agent of the gods entrusted with greater power and responsibilty which is what the Chosen template supposedly is. Has there been any fan created material of the Chosen of Gruummsh to date? |
| GothicDan06-02-07, 11:41 AM | I don't know about fan-created Chosen of Gruumsh. I could care less about orcs. The Proxy template, I believe, is either in MotP or the Planar Handbook. I think it grants the creature a DvR of 0. And the original Chosen were invested literally with little bits of a deity's divine essence, as opposed to being 'lent' it as Proxies were. This is the reason why Mystra could not remove her silver fire from Sammaster, even though he betrayed her and went insane; doing so would have literally *destroyed* that bit of her power, forever. Chosen are unique to FR, and there have been both Chosen and Proxies in FR material in the past - different entities altogether. |
| The_King_in_Yellow06-02-07, 01:01 PM | Are you referring to the Divine Agent prestige class? I've yet to locate a Proxy prestige class or template. |
| GothicDan06-02-07, 06:10 PM | Are you referring to the Divine Agent prestige class? I've yet to locate a Proxy prestige class or template. No. I'm sure it's a Proxy Template that gives DvR 0, because many people were upset with this fact; it made it impossible for Proxies to enter Sigil (no deities may enter), despite the fact that they've done so numerous times in the past. |
| Lord Karsus06-02-07, 07:50 PM | -I've never heard of that... |
| GothicDan06-02-07, 10:21 PM | I almost said something randomly mean for no reason. Oops. |
| Lord Karsus06-02-07, 11:48 PM | -As long as it wasn't directed at me... :: Shrug :: |
| Stigger06-04-07, 04:34 PM | Didn't see much in the way of proxy related materials in MotP or Planar Handbook actually... < glares all-evil-like at Dan > |
| GothicDan06-04-07, 04:52 PM | Gah. I was like sure WotC printed it. Maybe Shemmy knows. |
| MarkusTay6306-04-07, 05:40 PM | With a little research, I was able to find the info concerning the three levels of Proxy... it was in On Hallowed ground, a source I do not own. I was not able to confirm the DvR(0) thing from what little I was able to glean from the interweb. Perhaps if Grey were to come along, I believe that is one of his favorite sources. |
| Tyberian06-04-07, 05:58 PM | Didn't see much in the way of proxy related materials in MotP or Planar Handbook actually... < glares all-evil-like at Dan > I think proxies are detailed in deities and demigods, a deity gives part of his divine essence to a mortal and accordingly lowers his divine rank. I believe it is listed right before or right after planar petitioners, but I could be wrong. |
| Lord Karsus06-04-07, 06:13 PM | With a little research, I was able to find the info concerning the three levels of Proxy... it was in On Hallowed ground, a source I do not own. I was not able to confirm the DvR(0) thing from what little I was able to glean from the interweb. Perhaps if Grey were to come along, I believe that is one of his favorite sources. -That would be 2e, though. |
| Stigger06-04-07, 07:46 PM | Hmmm... don't have Deities and Demigods unfortunately, so couldn't say one way or another. |