Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cadrio 07-30-07, 02:35 PM	What are Larloch's stats and what makes him the most powerful person on Faerun?
Smilin_Bandit 07-30-07, 02:45 PM	The fact that he has no stats and that he's probably older than Elminster is what makes him so powerful. Well, that and the fact that very little is known about the guy. Most of it is all speculation. ~Smilin_Bandit~ :D
Drew1369r 07-30-07, 03:17 PM	He is stated in Lords of Darkness
Mirtek 07-30-07, 03:40 PM	He's a level 32 wizard (actually Wiz20/Epic12 as per the old epic preview rules, probably Wizard/Archmage/Arcanist combi with the new epic rules)
mageelminster 07-30-07, 03:56 PM	Go to Amazon.com ....look up the book Lords of Darkness....click search in this book...type in larloch...on page 161 and 162 it gives you his new and improved stats and a very brief history and what he's up to today and how he fits into the realms...he takes up too pages in just stat blocks and equipment....he's amazing.
Zevox 07-30-07, 03:59 PM	Hes not necessarily the most powerful being on Toril. Ioulaum can surely measure up to him (hes an Elder Brain Lich Wizard 31/Archmage 5/Netherese Arcanist 5 - thats a lot of psionic and magic power both, and almost five thousand years of experience and learning behind him to back it up), and I seem to recall that there are a few Dragons out there that can match him (can't recall their names - I've always had a hard time with those). Plus there was also the ten thousand year old Githvyrik Cerebremancer Vhostym, who was probably more powerful than any non-divine being ever to set foot on Toril, but of course hes dead now. But in answer to your question, its his age, arcane might, and servants that make him so powerful. Hes a survivor of Netheril, so hes at least well over 1,600 years old (and probably a couple millenniums older), and has been studying the Art for all that time. He has sixty Lich Archmages as servants (many from Netheril), including three Demiliches, plus many lesser servants in the forms of Vampires and other undead. Frankly, hes not only one of the most powerful arcanists in Faerûn, he could probably form his own nation of undead and conquer half the continent if he felt like. The fact that he has no stats and that he's probably older than Elminster is what makes him so powerful. Oh, theres no question that hes far older than Elminster. El is barely over 1100 - he missed Netheril's fall by over 500 years, while Larloch ruled a Netherese enclave of his own before Karsus' Folly destroyed the nation. Elminster really isn't that old, compared to the oldest Dragons and Liches the Realms has to offer. Zevox
Ioulaum 07-30-07, 05:51 PM	There are probably only maybe 2-3 dragons that could measure up to Larloch. Other then the Creeping Doom I can't remeber the others either. Besides Ioulaum and the others you mention. There is also the cabal of Saruhk Liches under the Annourach Desert. They ones that gave the Netheril Scrolls to the Early Netheril.
Lord Karsus 07-30-07, 06:03 PM	-The canon Larloch isn't as "end all, be all" as many want/think/believe him to be.
Green Elven Vampire 07-30-07, 06:10 PM	Don't forget the infamous Bullywug champion, Knimwitt the very old!!! He's a Scum Sucker 20/ Pond Prancer 10/ Divine Croaker 10 of Fragleghsareyummie.
GothicDan 07-30-07, 06:23 PM	Many of us feel that Ed's depictions of Larloch in his replies over at Candlekeep make him out to be more powerful than represented in the Lords of Darkness stats. It all really depends on personal opinion of stats and lore.
Zevox 07-30-07, 07:35 PM	There are probably only maybe 2-3 dragons that could measure up to Larloch. Other then the Creeping Doom I can't remeber the others either. Besides Ioulaum and the others you mention. There is also the cabal of Saruhk Liches under the Annourach Desert. They ones that gave the Netheril Scrolls to the Early Netheril. Ah yes, the Terraseer and the other fifty-nine Sarrukh Liches who rule Oreme. They'd definitely qualify. As for the Dragons, I think one of them was Nexus, the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon Sorcerer (CR 37). Never heard of this "Creeping Doom" though... *does a quick 'net search* Ah, a Black Dracolich Archmage, CR 50 (*whistles*). Hes probably one of the ones I've seen mentioned elsewhere, yeah. Pulling up the Web Enhancement for Dragons of Faerûn, theres Tchazzar, a Great Wyrm Fiendish Red Dragon Ascendant (CR 40) and Palarandusk "The Unseen Protector", a Great Wyrm Semi-Incorporeal Gold Dragon Sorcerer (CR 36). Zevox
Old Sage 07-30-07, 08:40 PM	It's worth noting that Larloch is meant more to be a legend than anything else; with few hard facts.
Dark Wizard 07-30-07, 09:52 PM	Ah yes, the Terraseer and the other fifty-nine Sarrukh Liches who rule Oreme. They'd definitely qualify. As for the Dragons, I think one of them was Nexus, the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon Sorcerer (CR 37). Never heard of this "Creeping Doom" though... *does a quick 'net search* Ah, a Black Dracolich Archmage, CR 50 (*whistles*). Hes probably one of the ones I've seen mentioned elsewhere, yeah. Pulling up the Web Enhancement for Dragons of Faerûn, theres Tchazzar, a Great Wyrm Fiendish Red Dragon Ascendant (CR 40) and Palarandusk "The Unseen Protector", a Great Wyrm Semi-Incorporeal Gold Dragon Sorcerer (CR 36). Zevox Inferno (CR 40) advanced great wyrn red dragon (Power of Faerun I believe). Daurgothoth (sp?) the Creeping Doom has a miscalculated CR, he's a bit lower than CR 50, but still a contender.
Lord Karsus 07-30-07, 11:59 PM	It's worth noting that Larloch is meant more to be a legend than anything else; with few hard facts. -The majority of names that we are all throwing around (Elminster, Larloch, Khelben, Inferno, Nexus, and so on), in reality, are mostly legend. Would an actual NPC farmer or PC Barbarian in Realmspace know the true "facts" behind these characters? I would hope not...
Red_Wizard 07-31-07, 09:02 AM	I apologize in advance to the OP as I have machinations to somewhat High jack this-- yet another-- Larloch thread. However I have the intent to keep it in the same line of discussion as it is for a Larloch related question. Larloch by 2nd ed. write up was 26th level, then By 3.0 he was 32nd level. However Ed as his creator, and the pinnacle in Realms knowledge notes in his musings that he is in fact closer to 46th level, and meant to always be at least 10 levels above the PC party. My question is why has TSR/ Wizards/ Hasbro opted to overrule Ed in this area. I am not starting a debate on which should be used, nor which is better so anyone considering following this with such please stop now. I personally feel he should be Ed's version, based solely off of all the descriptions available, but I do not discredit the canonized one thus my lack of want for debate on the matter. So, the question lingers. Why opt for something not as envisioned by Ed.? Just wondering if there was ever a given reason on the matter.
Alleran 07-31-07, 09:24 AM	So, the question lingers. Why opt for something not as envisioned by Ed.? Just wondering if there was ever a given reason on the matter. Possibly so players don't feel slighted that they can't take him out even when they get to a level of power that'd have entire empires trembling in their wake?
cheyne 07-31-07, 09:34 AM	Inferno (CR 40) advanced great wyrn red dragon (Power of Faerun I believe). Daurgothoth (sp?) the Creeping Doom has a miscalculated CR, he's a bit lower than CR 50, but still a contender. Phlogiston (Male half-fire elemental/half-great wyrm red dragon Drd20, CR47) from MoF Web Enhancement (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010810a)) is another one.
sleyvas 07-31-07, 10:34 AM	He has sixty Lich Archmages as servants (many from Netheril), including three Demiliches, plus many lesser servants in the forms of Vampires and other undead. I knew he had lich servants and other undead, but I had not heard of him having captured 3 demi-liches. What source book is this from, and does it give any information on these? I ask because I've always viewed that there may be a lot of liches in the realms, but demi-liches would be fairly rare (by that I mean, I would never expect there existing more than 10-20 throughout all of Faerun). And where there's a demi-lich there has GOT to be some story and history.
Meldread 07-31-07, 08:21 PM	My question is why has TSR/ Wizards/ Hasbro opted to overrule Ed in this area. Well, I looked at it like this. Wizard's knows that most people playing the Realm's are likely not going to hit epic levels, and those that do aren't likely to go past 25th. D&D has serious scale issues the higher level you get, and as a result the game and such becomes one sided one way or another. They stated him because people want stats on important NPC's. They didn't actually say, "Okay here you go, this is Larloch, now put him in your campaign and pwn him all the way to the hells!" Well, that's not entirely true, of course, they simply left him there as an option for DM's who want to run such campaigns to do just that. I happen to disagree with Ed on the power level he set for Larloch. I think he is in fact much more powerful. The same can be said for most of the iconic NPC's of the Realm's, but at the same time it is EXTREMELY unlikely for most DM's to run a campaign past level 25, and therefore most NPC's and such are stated around that range, with some placed out of that range for the PC's to deal with. The same goes for the gods. Every last one of them is at least level 40, and most of them are level 50+. Bane is the highest level that I know of at level 65. I think Shar and Selune are level 49 each and Mystra is level 55. That is because by the time you hit levels at which you can attack gods, that is about all the challenges that are left. They could certainly make them more realistic levels (at least 90th level or higher) but then there would be a big gap in between their level and the level of other NPC's they could challenge. Ed's advice is best in that if Larloch is ever brought into your game as a killable NPC having at least 10 levels higher than the PC's should be about right.
Red_Wizard 07-31-07, 09:18 PM	I respect the speculation, and ask that people feel free to continue with it, but to be perfectly honest I was kind of hoping for a canon answer. I know it was reaching as I have frequented these boards long enough, such an argument ending answer would most likely have been brought to my attention far sooner. But I can still hope. ;)
Meldread 07-31-07, 09:34 PM	I like to think of things in different terms. What the NPC's do in the Realm's is for the most part cannon. Their stat blocks are pseudo-cannon as you can't really translate a novel character to D&D. They are stated out for DM's to use in their games, though mileage may vary depending on a number of factors, mostly the DM behind them. You can give Larloch a level of 100 and play him so bumbling that PC's manage to defeat him. It's one of the reasons I hate that novels are translated into cannon. D&D is a completely different beast from the novels and the two do not translate well at all. The answer you are looking for, as far as I am concerned, is the one I posted above. There is no reason behind it in cannon, because canonically speaking unless you turn your PC's into something GREATER than a demigod then you have no hope of beating Larloch.
GothicDan 07-31-07, 11:11 PM	Possibly so players don't feel slighted that they can't take him out even when they get to a level of power that'd have entire empires trembling in their wake? So basically, so players can be self-aggrandizing masturbatory jack asses who get off on the fact that there's absolutely nothing in the game that can challenge them any more. Sounds fun to me...
Alleran 08-01-07, 01:55 AM	So basically, so players can be self-aggrandizing masturbatory jack asses who get off on the fact that there's absolutely nothing in the game that can challenge them any more. Sounds fun to me... Well, I didn't say that it was a good reason, just a possible one. Along the lines of why so many high-level NPCs have been kicking the bucket recently - it pushes the PCs to the fore.
GothicDan 08-01-07, 02:23 AM	Indeed. Sorry if that seemed personally aimed at you. :)
ShadezofDis 08-01-07, 12:32 PM	So basically, so players can be self-aggrandizing masturbatory jack asses who get off on the fact that there's absolutely nothing in the game that can challenge them any more. Somehow I don't think you're surprised in the least. ;) And remember, we are talking about a game marketed, mainly, to teenage boys. I know that when I was a teen I had my paladin up to 29th level (in 2nd ed days), which I really wouldn't want to do at this point in my life. In fact, I have a hard time playing anything but merchant minded social type characters. :)
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-02-07, 10:50 PM	http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=393&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=290676756a4d221733a0c49c5e9564da Larloch is pretty much THE most powerful guy in the realms. 60 liches + 3 demi liches in his control, and him the hive mind leader of all of them + if he is physically taken down, he just swaps bodies with them and forces their soul back into their own phylactery(Even if silverfired, he just swaps bodies with another lich he dominates). Not to mention hundreds of vampires(Think, ancient, extremely powerful wizard vampires who are resistant to sunlight and silver), and just about every other kind of undead. The spellpool in Larloch's crypt is probably the most comprehensive in the realms, allowing him to syphon's spells from it at will + He has dedicated several of his epic rods into this spellpool. His 25 Ioun stones are nothing to sneeze at either. Heck, Greenwood is on record saying Larloch is the one guy nobody even wants to attempt going at, Elminster included, because he would be impossible to defeat in his lair. Outside his lair, Greenwood says he could still go toe to toe with any of the chosen of Mystra. Its kind of strange. The latest book claims larloch is only 32, but greenwood denies this, claiming he is 46.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-02-07, 10:58 PM	Hes not necessarily the most powerful being on Toril. Ioulaum can surely measure up to him (hes an Elder Brain Lich Wizard 31/Archmage 5/Netherese Arcanist 5 - thats a lot of psionic and magic power both, and almost five thousand years of experience and learning behind him to back it up), and I seem to recall that there are a few Dragons out there that can match him (can't recall their names - I've always had a hard time with those). Plus there was also the ten thousand year old Githvyrik Cerebremancer Vhostym, who was probably more powerful than any non-divine being ever to set foot on Toril, but of course hes dead now. But in answer to your question, its his age, arcane might, and servants that make him so powerful. Hes a survivor of Netheril, so hes at least well over 1,600 years old (and probably a couple millenniums older), and has been studying the Art for all that time. He has sixty Lich Archmages as servants (many from Netheril), including three Demiliches, plus many lesser servants in the forms of Vampires and other undead. Frankly, hes not only one of the most powerful arcanists in Faerûn, he could probably form his own nation of undead and conquer half the continent if he felt like. Oh, theres no question that hes far older than Elminster. El is barely over 1100 - he missed Netheril's fall by over 500 years, while Larloch ruled a Netherese enclave of his own before Karsus' Folly destroyed the nation. Elminster really isn't that old, compared to the oldest Dragons and Liches the Realms has to offer. Zevox It has been beaten to death that Vhostim was no higher than a 35 level, and still below most of the chosen. Insanely powerful yes. Larloch level? No. Ioulaum is probably the ONLY guy who matches well vs Larloch toe to toe. But Larloch has a slight edge(Or so greenwood claims) Daurgothoth is pretty masty too. https://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20020327a
Zevox 08-03-07, 01:21 AM	It has been beaten to death that Vhostim was no higher than a 35 level, and still below most of the chosen. Insanely powerful yes. Larloch level? No. "Beaten to death"? Where? I've never so much as heard of anyone coming up with a decent estimate of his abilities, much less anything official coming out of Paul. Certainly the novels aren't anywhere near specific enough for that. Their descriptions are certainly enough though to put two and two (his age - which is over twice Larloch's - and obvious power based on the accomplishments he achieved in his past and the books themselves) together and figure out he should easily be Larloch's peer. (Tangent: and in any event, even being 35th level would put him well above most of the Chosen - even Elminster is only a 29th-level caster with a half dozen useless levels in fighter, rogue, and cleric, and barring unstated ones like the Srinshee hes the most powerful of them. Most of the Sisters are in the mid or high twenties of levels, with the strongest hitting 30 and 32 but with diluted power through poor multiclassing, and the weakest being still only level 19.) Zevox
GothicDan 08-03-07, 01:30 AM	Their descriptions are certainly enough though to put two and two (his age - which is over twice Larloch's - and obvious power based on the accomplishments he achieved in his past and the books themselves) together and figure out he should easily be Larloch's peer. Immense disagreement. We have no clue as to Larloch's age, only that he was an Archwizard of Netheril. Much like the SARRUKH Terraseer was. We know a MINIMUM of how old he could be, but we have no actual idea of his true age. And Vhostym's achievements, while superbly impressive, really are not on par with Larloch's, as we've heard from Ed. Capable of blowing up Abeir-Toril many times over. That's a league all its own. As to the Chosen - the Simbul is hand's down the most powerful out of the statted ones. One read through El in Hell will show that. And beyond that, my money's on the Srinshee being the most powerful overall, given her immense age and power: an archmage of Cormanthyr when Elminster was still learning the ropes, and still alive.
Mr_Miscellany 08-03-07, 01:47 AM	What are Larloch's stats and what makes him the most powerful person on Faerun? Stats aside, Larloch is what he is so that DMs have a "So you think you can trapse around, murder on a whim and get away with anything, do you? Well think again!" ....kind of NPC. He's there to be unbeatable, and was used in Ed's campaign as a tool to remind players that no matter how powerful their characters became, there would always be someone/thing out there that could mop the floor with them. :)
Zevox 08-03-07, 02:42 AM	We have no clue as to Larloch's age, only that he was an Archwizard of Netheril. Much like the SARRUKH Terraseer was. We know a MINIMUM of how old he could be, but we have no actual idea of his true age. Even if we presume Larloch to be as old as Netheril itself, Vhostym would be twice his age. Unless you want to claim he pre-dates that by many millenniums (and truthfully, what human civilization before then could he possibly hail from? Unless hes actually an Imaskari, it'd stretch the imagination for him to be older than Netheril and survive to see its days), Vhostym is quite solidly his senior. Heck, even if he were an Imaskari, Vhostym would be his senior - not by as much, obviously, but still older than him. At ten thousand years old, Vhostym just missed the Crown Wars, and the only things I can think of that are still (un)living and pre-date that are the Sarrukh Liches of Oreme. And Vhostym's achievements, while superbly impressive, really are not on par with Larloch's, as we've heard from Ed. Capable of blowing up Abeir-Toril many times over. That's a league all its own. Last I checked, one of Vhostym's reminiscences mentioned that in his younger days he had himself destroyed entire worlds. That would make that one thing they have in common, not something Larloch has above Vhostym. As to the Chosen - the Simbul is hand's down the most powerful out of the statted ones. One read through El in Hell will show that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't her apparent might in that story specifically due to a temporary super-charging that Mystra gave her to help her rescue El? And beyond that, my money's on the Srinshee being the most powerful overall, given her immense age and power: an archmage of Cormanthyr when Elminster was still learning the ropes, and still alive. That one we're in complete agreement on. Zevox
GothicDan 08-03-07, 03:38 AM	Even if we presume Larloch to be as old as Netheril itself, Vhostym would be twice his age. Unless you want to claim he pre-dates that by many millenniums (and truthfully, what human civilization before then could he possibly hail from? Unless hes actually an Imaskari, it'd stretch the imagination for him to be older than Netheril and survive to see its days), Vhostym is quite solidly his senior. Heck, even if he were an Imaskari, Vhostym would be his senior - not by as much, obviously, but still older than him. At ten thousand years old, Vhostym just missed the Crown Wars, and the only things I can think of that are still (un)living and pre-date that are the Sarrukh Liches of Oreme. We know that Larloch is highly interested in planar magic. For all we know, he may not even be native to Abeir-Toril. Or he could have been a time traveler, before Mystra put proper bans on time travel after the fall of Netheril. (And, after all, wasn't Vhostym himself an actual planar interloper?) Simply put, you're assuming things to claim that Vhostym is far older. I am not. I am not saying that Larloch IS older, either. I bet unless we had the Terraseer's background divulged in Serpent Kingdoms, you'd be saying that it would be a stretch to assume he was older than Vhostym, too. But there you have it. When it comes to archmages, there's little in the way of stretching necessary. On another note - I think it's almost giggle-worthy to assume that we know the fullness of all of the archmages alive in Faerun. I myself made a very in-depth Sun Elven Baelnorn who predated the Crown Wars and exists to this day, and I don't think it's unrealistic to assume that such ancient NPCs don't still exist, with magic being as versatile as it is. Last I checked, one of Vhostym's reminiscences mentioned that in his younger days he had himself destroyed entire worlds. That would make that one thing they have in common, not something Larloch has above Vhostym. And Ed mentions that Larloch had the might to do so many times over without any apparent strain. I'm not willing to put a completely new NPC on par with an NPC that's had decades of history in the Realms without a little more information about him, personally. And since we ARE talking about pure power here, has Mr. Kemp ever given any idea as to Vhostym's levels? We know that Ed's Larloch is "around" 46th level, which can mean slightly less or more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't her apparent might in that story specifically due to a temporary super-charging that Mystra gave her to help her rescue El? Mystra bestowed an aristea upon Halaster, not the Simbul that I recall. And it's also been made pretty clear in general that the Simbul is the toe-to-toe more powerful member of the pair (as evidenced even in 2E, where she was one caster level higher, 30 vs. El's 29), but El just has slightly more experienced and probably more connections.
creyzi4zb12 08-03-07, 05:03 AM	Actually there are lots of beings more powerful than Larloch. Like Kezef....all the gods are afraid of that dog.
GothicDan 08-03-07, 05:53 AM	Mostly Mask, though.
Derren S. 08-03-07, 07:52 AM	Ed might want to make it look it like Larloch is super powerfull but the stats say something different., And for me the FR is primary a game world and not a novel world so stats trump Ed. That doesn't mean that Larloch is weak but his stats don't make him much more powerful than other high level casters in the realms. Have those liches Larloch controlls been statted? If not then for all we know they could all be only around 11th level or so making this force far from impressive. Thay or Halruua could field much more magical power than Larloch even with his lichs.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-03-07, 08:17 AM	"Beaten to death"? Where? I've never so much as heard of anyone coming up with a decent estimate of his abilities, much less anything official coming out of Paul. Certainly the novels aren't anywhere near specific enough for that. Their descriptions are certainly enough though to put two and two (his age - which is over twice Larloch's - and obvious power based on the accomplishments he achieved in his past and the books themselves) together and figure out he should easily be Larloch's peer. (Tangent: and in any event, even being 35th level would put him well above most of the Chosen - even Elminster is only a 29th-level caster with a half dozen useless levels in fighter, rogue, and cleric, and barring unstated ones like the Srinshee hes the most powerful of them. Most of the Sisters are in the mid or high twenties of levels, with the strongest hitting 30 and 32 but with diluted power through poor multiclassing, and the weakest being still only level 19.) Zevox Elminster's CR is in between 39 and 45. Not 29th. According to Greenwood that is, and Larloch is 46. Since Greenwood invented forgotten realms, and just about every big name characters, his word superceeds the stats from sourcebooks. It has already been stated that the revised Larloch stats do not count. As for where we beat this to death. Ever heard of candlekeep? Im looking for the thread now. Might be in the Kemp interactive thread, but the question came up, and Kemp said powerful yes, but not quite one of the chosen powerful. He is a combination psionicist and high level wizard. The books never state his age, but hint he is around 2000+ Have those liches Larloch controlls been statted? If not then for all we know they could all be only around 11th level or so making this force far from impressive. Thay or Halruua could field much more magical power than Larloch even with his lichs. The liches are all former archwizards, at least 20th level or higher according to Greenwood. Old rules agree with him since minimum level for lichdom used to be 18+. Szass Tam is also rumored to be under his control now, and while this cannot be confirmed, he serves Larloch willingly out of fear(This is from a sourcebook) Thay could not match Larloch's keep(Simbul routinely routes Thay's armies single handedly, Larloch being more powerful, would likewise have no problems).
Karsus the Mad 08-03-07, 08:23 AM	Larloch's "nearly 2,000 years old.", according to LoD. That'd put him at the latter period of the Shadowed Age of Netheril. I had always assumed at least the Age of Discovery myself, but meh. That could also be only how long he's been a lich. And this world destroying worlds bit, I'm still trying to find it. Could someone please post the qoute:confused: That doesn't mean that Larloch is weak but his stats don't make him much more powerful than other high level casters in the realms. Have those liches Larloch controlls been statted? If not then for all we know they could all be only around 11th level or so making this force far from impressive. Thay or Halruua could field much more magical power than Larloch even with his lichs. One has to take into consideration however that his liches are in reference to 2e, where 18th level was the minimum. We do have the class/level block for one of them tho', in LEoF. I agree tho' about Thay or Halruaa capable of marshalling far more magical might, as Larloch himself is said not to desire such possible conflict with magical power groups. Larloch and his lich minions have no interest in attracting attention that would waste their time and magical resources (and perhaps, if word got around how dangerous they were, even threaten their existence in the face of a concerted attack from various magical power groups working together). Emphasis mine. However, we're speaking of entire nations here, rather than individuals. I can't think of any individual from any current magical society that could compare to Larloch in terms of skill, knowledge, and adeptness of Art.
Derren S. 08-03-07, 08:29 AM	However, we're speaking of entire nations here, rather than individuals. I can't think of any individual from any current magical society that could compare to Larloch in terms of skill, knowledge, and adeptness of Art. Just compare Larlochs level, feats and ranks in Kn: Arcana and Spellcraft with other NPCs and you have your answer.
creyzi4zb12 08-03-07, 08:35 AM	I bet that Larloch is nothing compared to Raistlin. If FR and Dragonlance have the same cosmology then surely, they must know each other.
Red_Wizard 08-03-07, 09:22 AM	. Szass Tam is also rumored to be under his control now, and while this cannot be confirmed, he serves Larloch willingly out of fear(This is from a sourcebook) Thay could not match Larloch's keep(Simbul routinely routes Thay's armies single handedly, Larloch being more powerful, would likewise have no problems). It never ceases to annoy me that people state such things as canon fact, yet clearly have no clue to it being a load of crock. The Simbul CAN NOT, nor never could single handedly destroy Thay, nor has she in a single sitting, with one on many destroyed whole armies of Thay. She uses gorilla tactics of hit and run, and her own arrogance has nearly killed her at least once in the process. Also, it is stated that should Thay unite, all lands around them have need to fear, as their combined known armies out number all combined forces of their surrounding neighbors. It is in fighting alone that keeps Toril safe from the power house that is Thay, not some upstart chosen next door who has some deep seeded hate for all that is Red. Lastly, it hasn't been suggested that Tam is another puppet of Larlochs anywhere I have read, thus this will need backing or retracting. If anything, they seem to be respectable associates, perhaps even bordering on a grudging friends. Tam brings Larloch things he can't acquire on his own, and in return Larloch gives tam things he needs to expand his base of power.
ShadezofDis 08-03-07, 10:07 AM	Lastly, it hasn't been suggested that Tam is another puppet of Larlochs anywhere I have read, thus this will need backing or retracting. If anything, they seem to be respectable associates, perhaps even bordering on a grudging friends. Tam brings Larloch things he can't acquire on his own, and in return Larloch gives tam things he needs to expand his base of power. Larloch could get whatever he really wanted, he's more interested in continuing his magical experiments than running around picking up odds and ends. I can't imagine Larloch having enough respect for Tam to consider him anything other than a tool, to be used as long as it's useful and once that usefulness is gone then discarding him. As for the quote that KtM brought out, I always read that as a "Larloch doesn't want the Twisted Rune to hook up with the Zhents and the Reds to try and take him out" not so much a "he's scared that the Reds would attack him" (though, working in concert I would imagine the Reds being able to kick him out of his home. . . maybe. . . maybe not though, no reason to suppose that Larloch is ignorant of circle magic and with 60+ archwizards to lend him might he'd get even scarier) Further, with his access to artifacts, items and various planar allies (or, rather, planar beings who owe him a favor) I couldn't imagine any force but a true combination of magical societies being able to take him on. Not that anyone would, because that really amounts to suicide for most of the force and has no guarentee of success and Larloch will never really give them cause. As for Raistlin, he just doesn't have the magical knowledge that Larloch does, Larloch has been experimenting with magic since at least Netheril and AFAIK he has the largest collection of Nether Scrolls on Faerun and he's been studying them for centuries (in addition to the centuries that he studied them while in Netheril). Last but not least, Larloch's liches are also powerful beings in their own right, it'd be rather unimaginative to think that they don't do anything but fetch his slippers at night.
Karsus the Mad 08-03-07, 10:18 AM	As for the quote that KtM brought out, I always read that as a "Larloch doesn't want the Twisted Rune to hook up with the Zhents and the Reds to try and take him out" not so much a "he's scared that the Reds would attack him" (though, working in concert I would imagine the Reds being able to kick him out of his home. . . maybe. . . maybe not though, no reason to suppose that Larloch is ignorant of circle magic and with 60+ archwizards to lend him might he'd get even scarier) I doubt he'd be "scared". I merely pointed out the fact that he has no desire to risk such conflict as it 1. would waste his time and resources, 2. pose a possible threat to his existence.
ShadezofDis 08-03-07, 10:36 AM	I doubt he'd be "scared". I merely pointed out the fact that he has no desire to risk such conflict as it 1. would waste his time and resources, 2. pose a possible threat to his existence. Heh, true that. Scared really is a poor word to describe anything about Larloch. :) In fact, I'm really of the opinion that obtaining lichdom removes most human type feelings (the chemically induced ones, not the mentally induced ones) so things like fear, pleasure, love, passion, rage, ect have no place in a lich's experience (though, given the various depictions that run counter to this I run it as a gradual loss of these feelings). However, I do think they'd still feel things like satisfaction and frustration. I'm also of the opinion that the one thing they truly feel (as a physical and emotional sensation) would be the flow of Art. At least that's my current, poorly articulated, opinion on the subject. :)
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-03-07, 08:19 PM	It never ceases to annoy me that people state such things as canon fact, yet clearly have no clue to it being a load of crock. The Simbul CAN NOT, nor never could single handedly destroy Thay, nor has she in a single sitting, with one on many destroyed whole armies of Thay. She uses gorilla tactics of hit and run, and her own arrogance has nearly killed her at least once in the process. Also, it is stated that should Thay unite, all lands around them have need to fear, as their combined known armies out number all combined forces of their surrounding neighbors. It is in fighting alone that keeps Toril safe from the power house that is Thay, not some upstart chosen next door who has some deep seeded hate for all that is Red. Lastly, it hasn't been suggested that Tam is another puppet of Larlochs anywhere I have read, thus this will need backing or retracting. If anything, they seem to be respectable associates, perhaps even bordering on a grudging friends. Tam brings Larloch things he can't acquire on his own, and in return Larloch gives tam things he needs to expand his base of power. The red Wizards sent 40 High ranking reds and several hundred Soldiers into Larloch's crypt, and they were dealt with quickly and efficiently, with next to no losses on Larloch's end. Tam survived because he attempted diplomacy. Szass Tam serves Larloch and very obviously fears him in all the outakes they are shown in. In the last one, he was completing the payment he promised Larloch for Larloch allowing him to live and also giving him a valuable artifact. Tam knows that Larloch could dispatch him easily, although he is himself extremely powerful. It really doesn't matter since Larloch has perfected a technique that allows him to completely dominate and lich or Demi Lich he wishes. The dusty corridors of Warlock’s Keep led everywhere and yet nowhere, but Szass Tam knew where he was going. Walking through seemingly solid walls, Thay’s Zulkir of Necromancy felt his body magically whisked away to deeper and darker chambers of the Keep. The lich glanced around the halls as he walked‚ noting the many traps that would have destroyed a mortal form that walked these halls. “Larloch!” Szass called out, entering an ancient library. “I bring part of the payment that I promised you. Show yourself.” “Ashrath,” intoned a rumbling voice some distance away. The library slowly illuminated itself in a flickering red glow, casting a fiery light across the assembled tomes. “I’ve been expecting you, Tam,” the voice intoned. “But you’re still three weeks late with payment.” Szass Tam walked toward the sound of the voice, rounding the end of a bookshelf and strolling nonchalantly toward an ornate golden throne pushed into a corner. Larloch, the ancient lich who hailed from Netheril, sat amidst a clutter of books and braziers. The Shadow King’s body was in stark contrast to that of Tam. While the Zulkir of Necromancy strove to maintain his human appearance, Larloch was nothing more than a collection of bones partially covered in fine garments. The Netheril lich’s bones were bright white in color, and trails of emerald energy traveled across his form. More than two dozen ioun stones circled his skull, and globes of red light gazed up at Szass Tam as he approached. “As I expected, we ran into some Harper resistance,” Tam replied, taking a seat opposite the Shadow King. “They weren’t going to give up the mantle without a fight.” “If they had any inkling of its power‚ they wouldn’t have given it up in death‚ either‚” Larloch grumbled. With a wave of his hand‚ the entire collection of books that lay before him scattered back to their appropriate shelf. His skeletal hand then reached toward Tam. “The mantle?” he asked. Szass reached into a pouch and pulled from its magical confines a metal vest enveloped in a violet glow. Larloch’s red eyes shimmered briefly for a moment, determining the magic surrounding the mantle to be a form of preservation spell. He then took the vest from Szass and laid it on the table. A moment later‚ Larloch glanced up at Szass Tam. “Why are you still here‚ Tam?” questioned the ancient lich. “This part of your payment is completed.” “The search for this ancient magic has raised my curiosity,” the Zulkir replied. “I wish to know more about what Netheril really was.” A long moment of silence descended over the two undead creatures, their gazes locked on one another. If Szass would have had a heart, it would have been racing. Finally, Larloch replied. “You are both vain and impetuous,” the Shadow King replied. “All who have visited me in the past have been destroyed, regardless of their allegiance.” “That’s because the others who came before me were inept,” said Szass. “True,” replied Larloch. “You have not failed me,” he intoned. “Not yet.” Another long moment of silence filled the library. Years could have passed for all either of the undead cared. Time was meaningless. Finally, without warning or preamble, Larloch, the Shadow King, revealed the secret past of Netheril.
GothicDan 08-03-07, 09:20 PM	Raistlin at his height was only around 24th level, I believe. Comparing campaign settings doesn't work so well. As to the bit about him being "almost 2,000 years old" from LoD.... Well, I didn't remember that. :) I'll admit ignorance to it, but it's not like that's not the only thing I've disagreed with in the printed material.
Mr_Miscellany 08-03-07, 09:53 PM	Just compare Larlochs level, feats and ranks in Kn: Arcana and Spellcraft with other NPCs and you have your answer.Sorry, but game stats do not **EVER** trump accumulated lore about a character or NPC. As all competent Realms DMs know, stats are also not fixed, but variable, because a DM is encouraged and allowed to adjust them to suit the needs of his or her campaign. Finally, game stats are approximations. That is, at best, all they can ever be. It is an incredibly simplistic thought to assume a comparison of skill ranks, level, etc...are a reasonable means of figuring out who's truly on par with someone else in areas of magical knowledge. The game rules simply don't scale well with extreme NPC age and experience. :)
Red_Wizard 08-03-07, 11:09 PM	The red Wizards sent 40 High ranking reds and several hundred Soldiers into Larloch's crypt, and they were dealt with quickly and efficiently, with next to no losses on Larloch's end. Ah, so by your accounts 40 Red Wizards is all that Thay can muster? What do you think would happen when anything less than equal forces tried to enter Larlochs abode, when pitted against that many liches, Vampires, Demi-liches and the gods know what else. :P Seriously, that is hardly a valid point. ;) Tam survived because he attempted diplomacy. The wisest course for continued survival, and a mutually benificial relationship. Szass Tam serves Larloch and very obviously fears him in all the outakes they are shown in. In the last one, he was completing the payment he promised Larloch for Larloch allowing him to live and also giving him a valuable artifact. Tam knows that Larloch could dispatch him easily, although he is himself extremely powerful. It really doesn't matter since Larloch has perfected a technique that allows him to completely dominate and lich or Demi Lich he wishes. I disagree, I don't recall any such encounter in which Tam was bantering with Larloch on anything less than mutually respectable terms. Larloch could indeed snuff Tam from existence within the confines of his own fotress, but I would hardly say Tam fears him, nor would I rule out his chances of victory in his own abode. Tam is a being of only 271 winters, and already totes an impressive 29th level. He is farther ahead level vs age wise than nearly every other NPC statted. I'd not count Tam out, nor suggest he is as pathetically simple as you'd like to profess him to be.
GothicDan 08-03-07, 11:13 PM	I love Tam as an NPC, but I always got a sense of deferential respect towards Larloch from him, myself.
Red_Wizard 08-03-07, 11:46 PM	Respect, but not fear. Least ways IMO.
godbeepit 08-04-07, 12:15 AM	I realize the thread veered a tiny bit from the discussion of if Larloch encounters fear, but I like being the devil's advocate. Also, before I get started I would like to point out my ignorance towards much of Faerunian lore as I am what one would consider the level one commoner with maxed out ranks in sitting-on-my-ass. It's a class skill, but I digress. Perhaps Larloch fears an encounter against any outside forces, whether it be Thay alone or a massive conglomeration of Toril's magically-inclined civilizations, not out of fear for his own continued existence but rather because of the setbacks such a conflict would create in his studies. It has often been stated that Larloch simply wants to study in peace and be left alone. One must also realize that acquiring an army of 60 liches is no small feat, let alone dominating them into his will and hivemind. If he were involved in any such conflict he could lose several powerful scholars and researchers who work for him (the liches I assume are more than mere servants) as well as any number of artifacts or magical items from his vaults. He has spent millenia working on research, and if something were to go wrong it could set him back possibly hundreds of years. Through this discussion of ancient beings, you still need to realize that several hundred years is well beyond the scope of practically any human mind and bordering on lifetimes for even dwarves and elves. My point being that even if Larloch were powerful enough to obliterate all of Toril against the stanch opposition of Thay and everyone else, he probably does not see the gains outweighing the casualties: mainly his research being halted or even set back. And I apologize for taking so long for the OP, but simply put Larloch is powerful because Ed says he is.
GothicDan 08-04-07, 12:54 AM	And I apologize for taking so long for the OP, but simply put Larloch is powerful because Ed says he is. Basically. Just like everything else about Faerun that wasn't added on without having been drawn directly or indirectly from Ed's notes or ideas. :)
ShadezofDis 08-04-07, 02:05 AM	Tam is a being of only 271 winters, and already totes an impressive 29th level. He is farther ahead level vs age wise than nearly every other NPC statted. I'd not count Tam out, nor suggest he is as pathetically simple as you'd like to profess him to be. Dude, suggesting that Tam is scared of a being that can destroy Toril several times over is in no way, shape or form "professing him to be simple". And, in no way, shape, or form, should Tam have a glimmer of a chance against Larloch.
ShadezofDis 08-04-07, 02:09 AM	As to the bit about him being "almost 2,000 years old" from LoD.... Well, I didn't remember that. :) I'll admit ignorance to it, but it's not like that's not the only thing I've disagreed with in the printed material. Ditto, a being who is working on what he's working on really should have been studying magic for a bit longer, IMO. Otherwise I would think that dragons would have already perfected such things. Or outsiders, or some of the creator races, or something else that's been around, working with and experimenting with magic, a lot longer. The game rules simply don't scale well with extreme NPC age and experience. :) Indeed.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-04-07, 04:27 AM	Ah, so by your accounts 40 Red Wizards is all that Thay can muster? What do you think would happen when anything less than equal forces tried to enter Larlochs abode, when pitted against that many liches, Vampires, Demi-liches and the gods know what else. :P Seriously, that is hardly a valid point. ;) The wisest course for continued survival, and a mutually benificial relationship. I disagree, I don't recall any such encounter in which Tam was bantering with Larloch on anything less than mutually respectable terms. Larloch could indeed snuff Tam from existence within the confines of his own fotress, but I would hardly say Tam fears him, nor would I rule out his chances of victory in his own abode. Tam is a being of only 271 winters, and already totes an impressive 29th level. He is farther ahead level vs age wise than nearly every other NPC statted. I'd not count Tam out, nor suggest he is as pathetically simple as you'd like to profess him to be. The 40 high level Red Wizards and hundreds of troops were defeated within minutes and with ease. That is all im saying. It has been stated from Greenwood(And since he basically invented the realms, he has full say in this), that no army, however big, nor any amount of wizards working together(Including all the chosen) could ever take Larlock's Crypt. Larloch is THE most powerful being on Fae run, and his army is probably stronger than anything anybody could put together against him. This si from the horses mouth. Larloch's crypt contains hundreds of high level Wizard Vampires, many over 1000 years old, and immune or unharmed by normal Vampiric banes, such as sunlight and silver. That is just scratching the surface. Mummies, wraiths, True Shades, and thousands of minor undead. Larloch could snuff Tam from existance no matter where he was. His place or Tam's. Though he probably would not. He would just use his ability to fully dominate any Lich or Demi lich and add Tam to his hive (Which is 100% effective no matter where Larloch does it and permanent. Tam would have no way of stopping it. Several of the archwizard liches under Larloch's control are stronger than Tam, and the Demi liches definitely are). And, uh, yes Tam fears him or at least acknowledges he is out of his league. A long moment of silence descended over the two undead creatures, their gazes locked on one another. If Szass would have had a heart, it would have been racing. Finally, Larloch replied. “You are both vain and impetuous,” the Shadow King replied. “All who have visited me in the past have been destroyed, regardless of their allegiance.” “That’s because the others who came before me were inept,” said Szass. “True,” replied Larloch. “You have not failed me,” he intoned. “Not yet.” P.S, We will probably see just how strong Thay is shortly since Szass Tam has assasinated a zulkir and gone to war vs the other 6. By the end of the new series, Tam will either rule thay, or be an outcast or dead by the end of the series.
Derren S. 08-04-07, 06:25 AM	The 40 high level Red Wizards and hundreds of troops were defeated within minutes and with ease. [...] That are just the normal power fantasies of novel authors. Stats count and they say something completly different. Don't forget that being undead can also be a huge disadvantage when faced with undead hunters. Turning, sunlight, certain spells like Undeath to Death and many others.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-04-07, 07:18 AM	That are just the normal power fantasies of novel authors. Stats count and they say something completly different. Don't forget that being undead can also be a huge disadvantage when faced with undead hunters. Turning, sunlight, certain spells like Undeath to Death and many others. Almost all of which someone of Larloch's power is immune to or he has a contingency for. And Larloch's stats are sickening to a level beyond, and say that im right. 46CR. Yikes.
Karsus the Mad 08-04-07, 08:54 AM	Raistlin at his height was only around 24th level, I believe. Comparing campaign settings doesn't work so well. I thought he was at max 20th level. Meh. It doesn't work well between settings. In one, a 10th level mage can be a god, in another a 64th level mage may be seen as "accomplished, but still lacking.". It's all about perspective within the setting. Almost all of which someone of Larloch's power is immune to or he has a contingency for. And Larloch's stats are sickening to a level beyond, and say that im right. 46CR. Yikes. You are aware those stats you're referencing are made by a fan (Jaerom) and are absolutely non-canonical? They use Dicefreaks rules, custom variants of prestige classes, homebrewed feats, and arbitrary powers made up specifically for him? Even then, it's not the highest "CR" around. They're still pretty cool tho':cool: Larloch's "official" CR is 34. Bleh.... It has been stated from Greenwood(And since he basically invented the realms, he has full say in this), that no army, however big, nor any amount of wizards working together(Including all the chosen) could ever take Larlock's Crypt. Larloch is THE most powerful being on Fae run, and his army is probably stronger than anything anybody could put together against him. This si from the horses mouth. Larloch's crypt contains hundreds of high level Wizard Vampires, many over 1000 years old, and immune or unharmed by normal Vampiric banes, such as sunlight and silver. That is just scratching the surface. Mummies, wraiths, True Shades, and thousands of minor undead. That's funny, given I quoted Greenwood above with a passage that suggests otherwise. However, I'd love to see such statements, as Larloch is one of my favorite NPC's (I have a fancy for insane Netherese archwizards...it's a weakness of mine), and I'd like all the info on him that exists :)
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-04-07, 11:22 AM	I thought he was at max 20th level. Meh. It doesn't work well between settings. In one, a 10th level mage can be a god, in another a 64th level mage may be seen as "accomplished, but still lacking.". It's all about perspective within the setting. You are aware those stats you're referencing are made by a fan (Jaerom) and are absolutely non-canonical? They use Dicefreaks rules, custom variants of prestige classes, homebrewed feats, and arbitrary powers made up specifically for him? Even then, it's not the highest "CR" around. They're still pretty cool tho':cool: Larloch's "official" CR is 34. Bleh.... That's funny, given I quoted Greenwood above with a passage that suggests otherwise. However, I'd love to see such statements, as Larloch is one of my favorite NPC's (I have a fancy for insane Netherese archwizards...it's a weakness of mine), and I'd like all the info on him that exists :) Yes I know much of it is homebrewed. However, the short story with Szass Tam was from one of the 3.E books(Can't remember which right now), and many of the stats are true stats from the book.(The ioun stones + Spellpool + Liches he has dominated + Spell reflect power for example, are all correct.) The wizards of the coast stats are incorrect as per Greenwood. He claims Larloch is 46CR, therefore, since he created him and most of forgotten realms, he is 46cr. Wizards simply made an error in their editing. Greenwood placed Larloch at a higher level than Elminster. Since he created both, his word is pretty much fact on this matter. As for Greenwood's statements, ill have to go sweep candlekeep for them. Wooly can probably find them if anyone can. For the guy pimping out Vhostim. Vhostim has no stats, but nothing he did in the books puts him any higher than 35CR. How his character was written is pretty much irrelevant. If we went by how a character was written for stats, then Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri would be far higher level than they supposedly are, and nigh unbeatable. But we know otherwise. They are just middling/high level ranger/assassin.
Karsus the Mad 08-04-07, 11:35 AM	Yes I know much of it is homebrewed. However, the short story with Szass Tam was from one of the 3.E books(Can't remember which right now), and many of the stats are true stats from the book.(The ioun stones + Spellpool + Liches he has dominated + Spell reflect power for example, are all correct.) The short story is the introduction from 2e Netheril: Empire of Magic, and that supplement has no stats of Larloch, so no, none of them are true stats from any sourcebook. The ioun stones were created by Jaerom for his version of Larloch, and Spellpools are a 3.0/3.5 invention first seen in the 3.0 arcane spellcasting supplement called Tome and Blood. There's been no evidence or suggestions that the Netherese utilized spellpools, given the fact that to utilize one as per the rules for Spellpools require a character to have the Spellpool Access class feature (which currently there is only two PrC's that grant it, the Mage of the Arcane Order, and the Waterdeep Guild Mage). Jaerom gave Larloch a spellpool to help replicate the ability of Netheril's arcanists to not prepare spells ahead of time (they were in effect spontaneous wizards). The wizards of the coast stats are incorrect as per Greenwood. He claims Larloch is 46CR, therefore, since he created him and most of forgotten realms, he is 46cr. Wizards simply made an error in their editing. Greenwood placed Larloch at a higher level than Elminster. Since he created both, his word is pretty much fact on this matter. ?Really now? Last I checked, the only reference Ed has ever made to Larloch's level (never said anything about CR) puts him as "possibly" 46th level. Ed is a good DM, and an excellent setting creator, and knows full well the benefits of never setting anything in stone (especially character levels and powers). That said, you'll also note this section of Ed's musings on Larloch but this may be no more than rumour spread by the Zhents or Red Wizards or Dragon Cultists, designed to lure adventurers into Larloch-weakening forays. Which means Larloch could very well be everything you want him to be, or he could be far far more than what anyone thinks, or he could be nothing of the like. That's the brilliance of Ed's style :) He leaves all the facts up to the DM :) However, the canon publication is indeed the correct Larloch for the canon publication of the Realms, but it's a small matter to ignore it (I do). As for Greenwood's statements, ill have to go sweep candlekeep for them. Wooly can probably find them if anyone can. I'm patient. I've been waiting a few years now for someone to point out the "can destroy the world." bit, so what's waiting longer for something else? :)
Derren S. 08-04-07, 11:37 AM	The wizards of the coast stats are incorrect as per Greenwood. He claims Larloch is 46CR, therefore, since he created him and most of forgotten realms, he is 46cr. Wizards simply made an error in their editing. Greenwood placed Larloch at a higher level than Elminster. Since he created both, his word is pretty much fact on this matter. Competly wrong. WotC now decides what happens in the realms. Ed can comment on it and as long as WotC don't contradict him his opinion can be considered canon, but when WotC says something different then this is what counts. In such a case Eds opinion is only a housrule and (from a canon standpoint) not more correct than any other houserule from a user on this board.
Mr_Miscellany 08-04-07, 01:33 PM	Competly wrong. WotC now decides what happens in the realms. Ed can comment on it and as long as WotC don't contradict him his opinion can be considered canon, but when WotC says something different then this is what counts. In such a case Eds opinion is only a housrule and (from a canon standpoint) not more correct than any other houserule from a user on this board. As I stated before, NPC stats aren't set in stone; they're approximations of fictional (and for this discussion I mean literary, not just in-game NPC) characters that are meant to be used by Dungeon Masters as they see fit (to be modified, etc...as needed) for game play. For ease of discussion, it's easiest and most simplistic to reference stats when talking about campaigns or making general points about play and running a game. But those stats do not, under any circumstances, delete or render obsolete the sum of accumulated lore on a given NPC. For an NPC such as Larloch, that lore is deep and cannot be hand-waved away. Since it is a fact that all game rules -regardless of edition- can not and will not ever be able to give a 100% complete description of an NPC, we cannot simply assume stats are the be-all and end-all when it comes to NPC description. Ergo, Larloch is and always will be more than what "WotC says he is". It's really not that hard to figure out. We know the creator of the Realms made Larloch. If WotC’s write up of Larloch does not comport with the creator’s original vision, then the stats are either in error or flawed. Or quite possibly, they were changed for the needs of the game (only): see below. There will always be friction between facts drawn from lore and the needs of the game to present NPCs in stat-terms and maintain play balance. For example, WotC may have decided to artificially lower Larloch’s level to keep him “in range” of Epic Level Realms Players (like they did with Khezef and the Elf Eater) so that players can take a shot at him (and what a hell of a campaign that would be!). However, per Greenwood, Larloch is simply more powerful than that; he’s meant to be a “PC be good stick” for out of bounds characters that need to be reigned in. Needs of the game. Facts from the lore. Being able to recognize these for what they are and being able to see past them is the mark of a true Realms fan. It’s like arguing which side of the coin is better, which is pointless. You don’t get anything if you don’t spend the coin. See? ;)
Faraer 08-04-07, 01:47 PM	See this recent article on Wizards designers' thinking regarding stats of demon lords (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20070727). None of these level numbers are canonical in and of themselves, as I recently laid out (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=897124). When Ed wrote "He's probably a 46th level evil-aligned wizard right now", he didn't mean "This is Larloch's real definite level", it's a gesture to say "Larloch is extraordinarily dangerous, and in a different league from almost anyone else", just as he's portrayed in every other source.
Karsus the Mad 08-04-07, 02:03 PM	See this recent article on Wizards designers' thinking regarding stats of demon lords (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20070727). None of these level numbers are canonical in and of themselves, as I recently laid out (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=897124). When Ed wrote "He's probably a 46th level evil-aligned wizard right now", he didn't mean "This is Larloch's real definite level", it's a gesture to say "Larloch is extraordinarily dangerous, and in a different league from almost anyone else", just as he's portrayed in every other source. Precisely :)
Mirtek 08-04-07, 04:29 PM	I bet that Larloch is nothing compared to Raistlin. If FR and Dragonlance have the same cosmology then surely, they must know each other. They do and Raistlin if very weak compared to the FR powerlevel (as are basically all DL characters). Raistlin is a 17th level wizard or something like that in his official game stats. So he's not only not a contender, hes actually way too low to just be on the list.
ShadezofDis 08-04-07, 04:46 PM	I think what has really happened (and it's not something that's even remotely "new" but it's something that's been getting worse and worse IMO) is that people have lost sight of the fact that "winning" in D&D is about having a good time, not about killing off the most uber thing you can find in any book and having the niftiest bauble there is in existence. As much as I often disagree with Mr_Miscellany, he's really hit the nail on the head here. My main problem with many of these threads is that when you insert a Larloch that isn't tough enough to withstand assault from a large amount of forces then Larloch is no longer Larloch, he's just generic powerful lich X. And when generic lich X has permanent spell reflection against all spells from 1st to 9th level then why shouldn't any other high level lich have that power? Then, soon enough, you're trying to explain how the world can exist with hundreds of liches who are effectively immune to magic. It's called "the slippery slope". But of course, it's all up to what you want to do with your game, if you want Larloch to be beatable then go for it. If you want to read the rule books as set in stone then more power to you. I just don't find those styles producing a gaming world that would work without a HUGE amount of suspension of disbelief and I like to limit my suspension of disbelief as much as possible.
GothicDan 08-04-07, 05:01 PM	Normally I don't agree with Mr. Miscellany, but he's professing the same sort of things that many of us have for a long time. So I'll agree now. Not that this matters to Derren, at all, who plays in a strange video game version of FR, where stats are immutable and infallible.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-04-07, 05:20 PM	As I stated before, NPC stats aren't set in stone; they're approximations of fictional (and for this discussion I mean literary, not just in-game NPC) characters that are meant to be used by Dungeon Masters as they see fit (to be modified, etc...as needed) for game play. For ease of discussion, it's easiest and most simplistic to reference stats when talking about campaigns or making general points about play and running a game. But those stats do not, under any circumstances, delete or render obsolete the sum of accumulated lore on a given NPC. For an NPC such as Larloch, that lore is deep and cannot be hand-waved away. Since it is a fact that all game rules -regardless of edition- can not and will not ever be able to give a 100% complete description of an NPC, we cannot simply assume stats are the be-all and end-all when it comes to NPC description. Ergo, Larloch is and always will be more than what "WotC says he is". It's really not that hard to figure out. We know the creator of the Realms made Larloch. If WotC’s write up of Larloch does not comport with the creator’s original vision, then the stats are either in error or flawed. Or quite possibly, they were changed for the needs of the game (only): see below. There will always be friction between facts drawn from lore and the needs of the game to present NPCs in stat-terms and maintain play balance. For example, WotC may have decided to artificially lower Larloch’s level to keep him “in range” of Epic Level Realms Players (like they did with Khezef and the Elf Eater) so that players can take a shot at him (and what a hell of a campaign that would be!). However, per Greenwood, Larloch is simply more powerful than that; he’s meant to be a “PC be good stick” for out of bounds characters that need to be reigned in. Needs of the game. Facts from the lore. Being able to recognize these for what they are and being able to see past them is the mark of a true Realms fan. It’s like arguing which side of the coin is better, which is pointless. You don’t get anything if you don’t spend the coin. See? ;) Excellent post, and right on the money
Mr_Miscellany 08-04-07, 07:56 PM	Normally I don't agree with Mr. Miscellany, but he's professing the same sort of things that many of us have for a long time. So I'll agree now. Just to qualify what I said, Darren is technically right about a lot of what he said. WotC's published word does trump Ed's word, unless it's an area not covered yet by WotC (or TSR prior). Unfortunately there's a huge grey area caused by Realms Fiction and Realms Game Products not mixing well together in terms of design prerogative. Throw in Ed's (legal?) right to weigh in on just about anything and you've got oil, water and something else that doesn't always mix well either. I think that's the area where we need to all step back and make sure we're clear on where we're coming from....are we talking stats (only), are we talking lore (only), are we mixing the two, and to what end the discussion? :)
GothicDan 08-04-07, 07:59 PM	WotC's published word does trump Ed's word, unless it's an area not covered yet by WotC (or TSR prior). Contrary to what many believe, I am acutely aware of canon vs. non-canon. My tendency to doggedly PERSONALLY support non-canon parts of Ed's lore doesn't mean that I actually think that such opinions are any longer 'official' after WotC has contradicted them. :) I disagree with 2E's (guide to the sword coast) statement of Larloch being 26th level, too. It's strangely like 46th level (which Ed approximated Larloch's level as), and Ed's said many times that his stuff got edited at the last moments without his approval. I think that both Volo's Guide and LoD are both CANON - I just don't agree with them. I think that's the area where we need to all step back and make sure we're clear on where we're coming from....are we talking stats (only), are we talking lore (only), are we mixing the two, and to what end the discussion? I tend to like to mix the two. Derren tends to talk about stats only (which have a tradition from being mutable, even as far back as the 1E campaign setting if I believe). The others? Well, I can't speak for them. :)
Krash 08-05-07, 07:44 AM	You know, to avoid these kind of issues that crop up on average once or twice every couple of weeks I'd love it when the 4E FR campaign setting book comes out (if FR survives that transition) to see a sidebar disclaimer saying something along the lines of "This is how we've decided to stat out X. For your campaign, in the novels and possibly in future products X may change or can be whatever you want him/her/it to be. These stats are a guideline only and not a definitive statement on X's abilities." I'm pretty sure that would solve most of the issues. But then again, people just love to argue ... :) -- George Krashos
Elsenrail 08-05-07, 08:09 AM	Someone stated that the setting is owned by WotC. Yep, he is right. Ed invented it, but now Ed's influence is no longer overwhelming. And I am happy, since the guy only creates super-ultra-powerful characters in whatever he writes. His novels are... crap, unfortunately. One of the weakest in FR novels range. I admire him for inventing the setting, but frankly, now it lives its own life and the new novelists (all hail Kemp, Reid, Byers)and designers are working well enough - what I need is a balanced world (like Eberron - who needs tone of epic stuff to have fun?), not a world where there is an uber monster/character in every pit. FR is a setting for a GAME and the game is about stats (though I dislike 'there is a rule for everything' way). The NPCs are created for PCs. If the PCs want to kill them, let them. Let them have FUN, because that's what D&D is all about.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-05-07, 08:25 AM	Someone stated that the setting is owned by WotC. Yep, he is right. Ed invented it, but now Ed's influence is no longer overwhelming. And I am happy, since the guy only creates super-ultra-powerful characters in whatever he writes. His novels are... crap, unfortunately. One of the weakest in FR novels range. I admire him for inventing the setting, but frankly, now it lives its own life and the new novelists (all hail Kemp, Reid, Byers)and designers are working well enough - what I need is a balanced world (like Eberron - who needs tone of epic stuff to have fun?), not a world where there is an uber monster/character in every pit. FR is a setting for a GAME and the game is about stats (though I dislike 'there is a rule for everything' way). The NPCs are created for PCs. If the PCs want to kill them, let them. Let them have FUN, because that's what D&D is all about. Crap? Well, you one in millions, and most FR fans happen to like Ed's works so your opinion is really worthless. His books have sold millions so obviously he is doing something right. You can say, "you don't like it", but to say it is "crap" when you are some nobody on an internet forum just means you are some disrespectful kid. The loyal and true forgotten realms fans still support him even if they do not enjoy his books, because he is one of the geniuses who invented the whole thing. It gives his opinion more credibility than any other person since he knows the fabric of what he created better than anyone in the realms, and WOTC still follows his opinions with little deviance and holds his opinion in the highest regard.
Faraer 08-05-07, 08:58 AM	You know, to avoid these kind of issues that crop up on average once or twice every couple of weeks I'd love it when the 4E FR campaign setting book comes out (if FR survives that transition) to see a sidebar disclaimer saying something along the lines of "This is how we've decided to stat out X. For your campaign, in the novels and possibly in future products X may change or can be whatever you want him/her/it to be. These stats are a guideline only and not a definitive statement on X's abilities."Yes, please. Time to make these design principles (more) explicit. Elsenrail, you're trying to join in a non-existent conflict.And I am happy, since the guy only creates super-ultra-powerful characters in whatever he writes.You're badly mistaken: of the several thousand Realms characters Ed's created, a tiny minority are extremely powerful. The fact that some of those have received disproportionate attention in print is well understood to be the doing of TSR and Wizards of the Coast. Your claim is especially badly made a few days before the second Knights of Myth Drannor novel is published.His novels are... crap, unfortunately. One of the weakest in FR novels range.No, you don't like them.FR is a setting for a GAME and the game is about stats (though I dislike 'there is a rule for everything' way).No, the Realms is a secondary world in its own right that is often used as a setting for a game. And the game is not about stats, they're simply tools used within it.The NPCs are created for PCs. If the PCs want to kill them, let them. Let them have FUN, because that's what D&D is all about.Many of them were created before anyone knew what a PC was. Letting the PCs succeed at whatever they want is only one idea of what fun is.
GothicDan 08-05-07, 09:13 AM	Someone stated that the setting is owned by WotC. Yep, he is right. Ed invented it, but now Ed's influence is no longer overwhelming. And I am happy, since the guy only creates super-ultra-powerful characters in whatever he writes. Every NPC that's not explicitly created by someone other than Ed Greenwood is for all intents and purposes the creation of Ed Greenwood, written in FR supplements and novels. There are some listings of all printed NPCs, from 1E to 3.5, with classes and levels. Simply put, statistically speaking, you are quite wrong; exaggeration that's meant specifically to deprecate someone isn't anything but harmful.
Old Sage 08-05-07, 09:18 AM	His novels are... crap, unfortunately. One of the weakest in FR novels range.If you're going to waste our time with nonsense statements like this Elsenrail, at least have the presence of mind to support them with *actual* proof.
Red_Wizard 08-05-07, 09:44 AM	lol, so I come back to read along, see what I have missed, or what new points have been brought into the light, and I find myself sitting in a tad bit of shock. Then I move further, and I am only slightly less taken aback by Elsenrails remarks. What then do I account my first surprise too? Krash openly talking about 4E like it was perhaps a sure thing, and then going on to state what no less than a dozen threads in the last two months or so have been adamently asking. "Will the Realms survive 4E?" :P I just find it a tad commical that the wizo's, and many of the forum members, had become so up in arears over the matter and then to have Krash-- Who's reputation on Realmsian matters is not in question here-- come and say this. I suppose it dulled to some degree the words of Elsenrail enough for me to see what they truly were. Lets coin a direct phrase from him to be fair now, "Crap". ;)
Krash 08-05-07, 10:04 AM	My comment was purely hypothetical. I have no knowledge as to whether there will be a 4E and if there is, when it will occur. As to FR making the transition to 4E, I'm hoping that it does - no more, no less. -- George Krashos
Elsenrail 08-05-07, 11:50 AM	Even on amazon, where there are lots of ardent fans of Ed, his novels aren't shining with many stars. ;) Not speaking about more professional review websites. I know that there are mainly young people on the boards and I was just like You even when I was in early 20'. Tempora mutantur et mutamur in illis, you will find it true. to Mr LarlochtheUltraLich( Your nick says everything ) -as far as I know only RAS sold millions. FR aren't Harry Potter or Star Wars novels. I agree with someone who stated a demiliche needs a background story. True; moreover it would be really weird for a demilich to serve a lich (it's just like human serving a monkey).
ShadezofDis 08-05-07, 11:50 AM	My comment was purely hypothetical. I have no knowledge as to whether there will be a 4E and if there is, when it will occur. As to FR making the transition to 4E, I'm hoping that it does - no more, no less. -- George Krashos Yep, that's exactly how I read it. I assume you said it that way because the FRCS has already been published and won't be published again in 3.X. :)
ShadezofDis 08-05-07, 12:01 PM	Even on amazon, where there are lots of ardent fans of Ed, his novels aren't shining with many stars. Not speaking about more professional review websites. His novels are also edited A LOT and forcefully changed by the editors A LOT. The base fact is that D&D is marketed towards teenage guys and, generally speaking, teenage guys like things that go BOOM. (or, it could easily be argued, it's that the adults in charge of the game's "direction" think that all teenage boys like are things that go BOOM) I know that there are mainly young people on the boards and I was just like You even when I was in early 20'. Tempora mutantur et mutamur in illis, you will find it true. Heh, nice try, half of the replies to your post were by people over 30 (well, I know Krash is, I assume that Old Sage and Farear is as well). Further, dismissing someone else's idea due to age is poor form and most of the posts pertaining towards yours were saying "You sir, are incorrect about your facts and trying to posit your opinions as facts." I agree with someone who stated a demiliche needs a background story. True; moreover it would be really weird for a demilich to serve a lich (it's just like human serving a monkey). Larloch is no ordinary lich. In fact, I'd argue that he isn't a lich at all, he's something different. So, your statement is true, it would be really weird for a demilich to serve an ordinary lich, but you're knowledge of Larloch is lacking.
Old Sage 08-05-07, 12:45 PM	Even on amazon, where there are lots of ardent fans of Ed, his novels aren't shining with many stars. ;) Not speaking about more professional review websites.Amazon is hardly the only place online that ranks and discusses opinions on Ed's works. Basing your assumptions on what you read at Amazon isn't always a good idea. I know that there are mainly young people on the boards and I was just like You even when I was in early 20'. Tempora mutantur et mutamur in illis, you will find it true.I suggest you check some of the AGE entries for those posters who responded to your earlier comments.
Faraer 08-05-07, 12:56 PM	Actually, I'm well over 100, so my views are three times as correct as someone in their 30s. I only read books which have 5-star average ratings on Amazon.com, such as Chad Eastham's The Truth About Guys.
GothicDan 08-05-07, 01:04 PM	I'm 22, but I am going to be a Physicist. That at least doubles my virtual age. I'll admit, I'm not a fan of Ed's writing style, for the most part - it's hard for me to read for whatever reason. But he captures his characters well. And, heck, I also hate Harry Potter and the LotR. But your assertion that "Ed only has uber powerful characters" is patently untrue, and can be statistically disproved. No matter how old you are, it's not going to change numbers. Regarding Larloch? He's patently something more than a normal Lich. Just the slew of special abilities he possesses far and above those of any lich were much more powerful than Demiliches in 2E. Remember, it wasn't until 3E that Demiliches went from being powerful manipulators to in-your-face Epic level powerhouses. 100% constant spell reflection, a number of artifacts in his possession such that he can use them like bargaining chips, spell immunities similar to those of the Chosen... Yeah. He deserves the title of Ultra Lich.
Elsenrail 08-05-07, 01:37 PM	Maybe they are old, but age is not intelligence. Don't get me wrong, but many people here lack logics (an my job is all about logics, evidence and persuading). I don't have much time to go deeper in that matter - writing a monography on the topic would take too much time. I don't know everything about FR. I read about half the novels released (due to time-consuming work), but my younger brother owns all the books (and sourbeeoks as well). What is the most important for me is the GAME*, not discussions that are really useless like "who is the greatest X in the world". All this level hype in D&D is not a good idea (perhaps that's why they take now the FC approach in recent releases). What's more, I'm not a native speaker, so it is difficult for me to write as "intellectually sharp" as I do it in my own language. * Because one could say "Daamit, man, you are 30, a Ph.D. and You play childish games". However, D&D is an everalsting love, a hobby one can pursuit through his whole life. Don't misinterpretate my words (adding new content they actually lack) on purpose. It's not the way of good dispute. EOT (my time is running out)
GothicDan 08-05-07, 02:11 PM	Maybe they are old, but age is not intelligence. Don't get me wrong, but many people here lack logics (an my job is all about logics, evidence and persuading). Your two main points were: 1) Ed only creates uber powerful characters. 2) His novels are "bad." As to 1: you've yet to show any evidence showing that he creates only uber powerful characters. As the Affirmative, it's on your shoulders to provide it. Just because Ed's powerful characters get the most spotlight by WotC (and did by TSR) does not make them the entirety of a population. Since your job is so linked to such things, I'm sure you know about bias case studies and the like. As to 2: you cannot use logic when it comes to art. Art is ultimately pure BS. It's preference. While some of us might consider others' opinions stupid, to consider their actual IQ's to be in some way lacking because of those opinions is simply making a gross, illogical generalization. I don't know everything about FR. I read about half the novels released (due to time-consuming work), Oddly enough, I've only read a dozen or so. but my younger brother owns all the books (and sourbeeoks as well). What is the most important for me is the GAME*, not discussions that are really useless like "who is the greatest X in the world". "Who is the greatest X in the world" always brings statistics into it. That's a direct result of the GAME, as opposed to the lore of the world. All this level hype in D&D is not a good idea (perhaps that's why they take now the FC approach in recent releases). That is the game of which you speak, though. Perhaps you mean to say that you're interested in ROLEPLAYING, over NPC statistical discussions? If so, I'm in the same boat as you, and pretty much everyone you said that is lacking intelligence is, too. Don't misinterpretate my words (adding new content they actually lack) on purpose. It's not the way of good dispute. EOT (my time is running out) I personally don't think anyone here has put words into your mouth, so to speak. Have fun with whatever you need to go off and do. ;)
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-05-07, 02:45 PM	to Mr LarlochtheUltraLich( Your nick says everything ) -as far as I know only RAS sold millions. FR aren't Harry Potter or Star Wars novels. Yes, my name says that just about every other variation of Larloch's name has been taken. Since this is one of his titles, I went with that. If you factor in all his novels worldwide, greenwood has sold millions. He is one of the best storytellers. Im almost willing to bet that you do not like it because you have limited knowledge of the realms, and his books rely heavily on your knowing the realms. Salvatore is a different beast because he mainstreamed his books so that anyone outside of FR could pick it up and get into it. Anyways, as I said, he has sold millions and is a respected author, and you are just some random nobody on the internet talking smack. Nobody believes you have some important job to do:) Mostly because people who really do have important things to do do not go around listing their false credentials to try to lend weight to their arguement. Anyone can claim anything over the internet on a random messageboard. Heck, im the owner of a pharmaceutical company and live like Bruce wayne:) Chances are, you are posting while on break at a call center.
Elsenrail 08-05-07, 05:03 PM	[QUOTE=GothicDan;13314145] you cannot use logic when it comes to art. Who stated that? What researcher? Everything can be connected somehow. And what is art for You? Mathemathics is also art is some sense.This is an example of "sofizmat" (I don't know the proper English word; ordinary dictionaries lack it) - used by Socrates & co. to show how clever they were (though tricky and false). I personally don't think anyone here has put words into your mouth Putting words is not the same as misinterpretating. There is a small, but important difference and it's why I chose the latter word. "Who is the greatest X in the world" always brings statistics into it. That's a direct result of the GAME, as opposed to the lore of the world. Just to show You how illogical is Your thinking (before I go to sleep). Let's look at Your sentence from a semantic point of view. Statistics are a DIRECT RESULT of the game. False, the direct result may be emotions like hapiness, fun etc. Statistics are the direct result of mechanics of the game, not the game itself. AS OPPOSED TO. What is the object in opposition to the statistics? Non-statistics. Not the loe itself (the word "lore" has not exactly the same conent - there are other aspects of the game, for instance rules thata are not stats) EOT (now I really have to vanish)
GothicDan 08-05-07, 05:19 PM	Who stated that? What researcher? Everything can be connected somehow. And what is art for You? Mathemathics is also art is some sense.This is an example of "sofizmat" (I don't know the proper English word; ordinary dictionaries lack it) - used by Socrates & co. to show how clever they were (though tricky and false). I stated it. It is an opinion. Therefore, you cannot prove it inherently incorrect using 'logic.' Putting words is not the same as misinterpretating. There is a small, but important difference and it's why I chose the latter word. But you went on to clarify 'adding onto what I said' which is making new words. Just to show You how illogical is Your thinking (before I go to sleep). Let's look at Your sentence from a semantic point of view. Statistics are a DIRECT RESULT of the game. False, the direct result may be emotions like hapiness, fun etc. Statistics are the direct result of mechanics of the game, not the game itself. The mechanics ARE the game. Without the mechanics, it wouldn't be the same game any more. Without the mechanics, we'd just be roleplaying, or acting out theater drama - but it wouldn't be the same game any more. Non-statistics. Not the loe itself (the word "lore" has not exactly the same conent - there are other aspects of the game, for instance rules thata are not stats) Non-statistical rules I tend to quantify under the umbrella of 'lore.' (I'm bored and idle; reply whenever you wish.)
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-05-07, 05:31 PM	EOT (now I really have to vanish) Thank you. Have fun at the call center
ShadezofDis 08-05-07, 06:30 PM	Maybe they are old, but age is not intelligence. Don't get me wrong, but many people here lack logics (an my job is all about logics, evidence and persuading). I don't have much time to go deeper in that matter - writing a monography on the topic would take too much time. A single, solid example would take almost no time and would avoid a more esoteric discussion and bring it into the realm of actuality, rather than the realm of opinion and theory. As for art, some people do view mathematics as an art, some do not, since art has no definitive test to say what is art and what is not art then the OPINIONS will vary. The key word in that statement is in caps. :) Last but not least, most every poster you are actually speaking to at this time are really uninterested in who "the most powerful x, y or z" is and most of them have been posting in this thread to say that and to correct gross inaccuracies.
Karsus the Mad 08-05-07, 07:51 PM	Meh...I like some of Ed's work. There's also works of his I'm not particularly fond of. . . . . All you, go have Lloth's demon child and stop whining:P
GothicDan 08-05-07, 07:54 PM	But she's a girl. (Sort of?)
ShadezofDis 08-05-07, 08:31 PM	All you, go have Lloth's demon child The equipment I have would break if I tried to do that. :P
Red_Wizard 08-06-07, 10:15 AM	My comment was purely hypothetical. I have no knowledge as to whether there will be a 4E and if there is, when it will occur. As to FR making the transition to 4E, I'm hoping that it does - no more, no less. -- George Krashos Don't worry, I knew that you were just making a Hypothetical point, but I found it more amusing/ Shocking that after all the Wizo's have said on the matter trying to bury it, you come along and write something that could-- if read wrong-- be seen as a confirmation to the fears that some have expressed as of late. Now to Elsenrail quickly. I know that there are mainly young people on the boards and I was just like You even when I was in early 20'. Tempora mutantur et mutamur in illis, you will find it true. Maybe they are old, but age is not intelligence. This made me chuckle more than a tad, as for a self professed being of logic, this was a most illogical follow up to your previous remark. You can not suggest that your assumption on being older, somehow permits you to see move vividly into this situation, while at the same time arguing age does not equate to intelligence. Least ways not in the context the comment you quoted was put. Your initial response presumed you were vastly older than the majority of members on these boards, a conclusion made with only the basest of assessments upon arrival. This flawed observation was countered by stating that there were in fact many people here of equal or greater age, to which you then made your closing statement concerning age vs intellectual growth. This does not apply, as none were in fact arguing an advanced intelligence due to birth year, but rather were pointing out you were not the sole "older" person to grace these forums. Perhaps then it is logic that is failing YOU in your advanced years, to which I offer up false condolences to such an event. ;) Don't get me wrong, but many people here lack logics (an my job is all about logics, evidence and persuading). Without specifying individuals this becomes a generalized statement, one to which I take minor offense, as this is the second time in one weekend someone older has professed to be the more logical of us two. Their basis for this assumption-- and one could assume potentially for yours as well-- stems from a logistical course they claim to have taken in University. Needless to say, her "logical" argument on the matter was summarily shot down quite quickly, leaving her in a great huff for the remainder of the evening. You now have made a flawed statement initially, followed by this generalized tripe to finish. I submit that your logic is not as soundly manufactured as you would have us believe, and that in the future a moment of reflection and explanation would suit the situation far better than baseless accusations, followed by excuses of not having the time to defend your own case. Were this a court you'd be out a great deal of money even if that was meant solely as an opening statement.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-06-07, 11:03 AM	Don't worry, I knew that you were just making a Hypothetical point, but I found it more amusing/ Shocking that after all the Wizo's have said on the matter trying to bury it, you come along and write something that could-- if read wrong-- be seen as a confirmation to the fears that some have expressed as of late. Now to Elsenrail quickly. This made me chuckle more than a tad, as for a self professed being of logic, this was a most illogical follow up to your previous remark. You can not suggest that your assumption on being older, somehow permits you to see move vividly into this situation, while at the same time arguing age does not equate to intelligence. Least ways not in the context the comment you quoted was put. Your initial response presumed you were vastly older than the majority of members on these boards, a conclusion made with only the basest of assessments upon arrival. This flawed observation was countered by stating that there were in fact many people here of equal or greater age, to which you then made your closing statement concerning age vs intellectual growth. This does not apply, as none were in fact arguing an advanced intelligence due to birth year, but rather were pointing out you were not the sole "older" person to grace these forums. Perhaps then it is logic that is failing YOU in your advanced years, to which I offer up false condolences to such an event. ;) Without specifying individuals this becomes a generalized statement, one to which I take minor offense, as this is the second time in one weekend someone older has professed to be the more logical of us two. Their basis for this assumption-- and one could assume potentially for yours as well-- stems from a logistical course they claim to have taken in University. Needless to say, her "logical" argument on the matter was summarily shot down quite quickly, leaving her in a great huff for the remainder of the evening. You now have made a flawed statement initially, followed by this generalized tripe to finish. I submit that your logic is not as soundly manufactured as you would have us believe, and that ion the future a moment of reflection and explanation would suit the situation far better than baseless accusations, followed by excuses of not having the time to defend your own case. Were this a court you'd be out a great deal of money even if that was meant solely as an opening statement. Excellent post, and right on the money. P.S PM me what you think the results of "The Haunted lands" Series will be:)