Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rikkiwalker 01-12-08, 12:13 PM	I know next to nothing about the upcoming change in the Realms other then that Mystra is dead (good riddance) and so is Helm (talk about LAME reason how and why, though good riddance to him to) and that a lot of the weaker gods lost their domains or are dead or something which is a good idea to me because their are way to many gods in the realms, there seems to be one god for every different race and human ethnic group on the planet for everything. To me the Realms have just been too way over developed it is in desperate need of some trimming; you cannot walk down a quiet forest trail without tripping over some epically powerful artifact that Elminster probably dropped while engaged in the throes of passion with some buxom nymph that likes hairy old men (whether they can shape change or not).... While I do not like the idea of the Realms being devastated (it works for Athas but I do not like the idea for Toril) I like the idea of many of the nations in the realms becoming greatly weakened and a lot of the old uber powerful characters being gone or changed in fundamental ways. I read somewhere that someone wanted the Simbul to become the next goddess of magic which i think is a good idea, to me she personifies the raw powerful nature of magic in its purest form and I think her personality would be a good fit for being a god ( I do not want Elminster be it, the realms need a god of magic, not another one for sex drugs and rock and roll)..... But all these thoughts are thinking of previous versions of DD....What I would like to see with the new changes are less feats and prestige classes (enough is enough, some are downright stupid), I would like the system of magic changed dramatically (get rid of the wish spell and make it extremely difficult for anyone to be raised or resurrected when I put together campaigns, spells like raise dead never existed and resurrection is a spell of epic level that fails more often then succeeds) what is the point of fearing for ones life or struggling to survive if your like, oh I can just raise them if they die. Also get rid of the whole memorizing spells, if your really smart you can remember, they can keep their spell books around to refresh their memories but do not need to constantly memorize things. As much as I love the sorcerer class I would like to see it gone as I never thought it made sense for their to be sorcerers and wielding innate magic if their spells are structured in the same way as wizards spells are...make the magic that sorcerers wield comparable to the shianti sorcerer class from Lone Wolf...if that could be tweaked a little that would be a phenomenal class to play. Well that’s my rant for now :)
The Ubbergeek 01-12-08, 01:14 PM	AT least, a positive voice in a sea of negativity.
Rauric 01-12-08, 02:14 PM	I will buy it. I already have a few campaign ideas in my head for it.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 02:38 PM	Well, I am glad to see another youngster like me that has gotten into the Realms. :) Remember, we are the future brother, which means we must conserve this setting to the best of our ability and not let it fall into degredation. Even if it means resisting some of WoTC's changes, do it. However, I do agree with you that there are some things to look forward to with 4e, but never forget the history or the background.
Faraer 01-12-08, 02:56 PM	AT least, a positive voice in a sea of negativity.Positive towards a new setting s/he hasn't read, and negative -- with regurgitated nonfactual clichés -- for the current setting which s/he seems not to have read either.
Jiggawha 01-12-08, 02:58 PM	it all depends how the new lore will be presented, if it continues in 3E ''dumb it down'' style then I'll pass, but Ed is still here, there's still room for optimism what does concern is that it seems that the new authors are quite ignorant about the world, wotc hired the wrong people e.g. http://www.gleemax.com/Comms/Pages/Communities/BlogPost.aspx?blogpostid=33552&pagemode=2&blogid=5122 seems sloppy where's Schend?
Rauric 01-12-08, 03:10 PM	Positive towards a new setting s/he hasn't read, and negative -- with regurgitated nonfactual clichés -- for the current setting which s/he seems not to have read either. Wow, he sounds on par then with the likes of many posters on these boards. He should fit right in I guess.;) Meaning many anti- 4E/FR people have not read the books yet but hate it already. Many blame the change on "young gamers" and say it is their powergaming ways and ADD that made WOTC change things. Everyone overlooks that powergaming and killing gods dates back to the beginning of D&D.
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 04:59 PM	Meaning many anti- 4E/FR people have not read the books yet but hate it already. -How many times do I have to cite my "You don't need to drink poison to know you don't like it"? I think that's becoming a cliche, speaking of them.
Storm_Silverhand 01-12-08, 05:52 PM	Heya, most of the people complaining have a limited imagination Limited imagination? That's quite a heavy charge. You know what I think? I think anti-3rd Ed Realms people have limited imagination. They lack imagination because they can't use the setting because it's "too detailed"... TOO detailed? How ridiculous is that? Here's a setting where you're literally tripping over plot hooks in source material, and somehow that's a turn off. So what's WotC doing? They're trimming the fully grown tree back down and trying to make a bonsai out of it... when they should be finding a actual sapling and preparing it properly for bonsai. All that's going to happen this way is that the branches and leaves will grow back in, and they'll have yet another tree they want to trim back because it's "too detailed". Or they'll just kill the tree when they cut the tap root... I think the latter is more likely. Having said that, some of the changes have intrigued me. Some of the changes have infuriated me (way to go skipping Alusair's regency in Cormyr, and way to go having Azoun V followed by another male ruler... Can't females rule in Cormyr in their own right? What's happening to Eilistraee, what happens to Mystra, and the entire soap opera plot concerning Sune, Tyr, Tymora, and Helm). Other changes I could take or leave. On the balance of things, I'm sticking with 3rd Ed Realms, and maybe taking a peak in the FRCG in the shop but probably not buying it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 06:06 PM	The anti-3rd edition people aren't any more creative or uncreative than the conservative old school, the difference between the two is that one actually bothers to learn and enjoy the lore while the other is too lazy and prefers to get right into the game without any foreknowledge.
Faraer 01-12-08, 06:11 PM	So what's WotC doing? They're trimming the fully grown tree back down and trying to make a bonsai out of it... when they should be finding a actual sapling and preparing it properly for bonsai.Except that it's not fully grown; most of it remains below ground having never seen daylight.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 07:24 PM	AT least, a positive voice in a sea of negativity. It's a voice that is barely comprehendable, and it's pretty clear that the OP knows little, if anything, about the character of Elminster.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 07:29 PM	Wow, he sounds on par then with the likes of many posters on these boards. He should fit right in I guess.;) Meaning many anti- 4E/FR people have not read the books yet but hate it already. But we DO know about certain changes being canon. Grand History of the Realms, for example, is a published book, even though it may not be for 4E. And by the way (this is a general comment), I find it interesting how supposedly "positive" threads are still filled to the brim with negativity, in this case for both the current FR setting and people who dislike the changes.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 07:31 PM	I think everyone should just sit, calm down, and have a soothing cup of tea:D This whole debacle is driving a wedge in between the whole community. Besides, we are all Realms fans are we not.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 07:34 PM	Heya, Limited imagination? That's quite a heavy charge. You know what I think? I think anti-3rd Ed Realms people have limited imagination. They lack imagination because they can't use the setting because it's "too detailed"... TOO detailed? How ridiculous is that? Here's a setting where you're literally tripping over plot hooks in source material, and somehow that's a turn off. THANK YOU. It's so easily forgotten, or deliberately looked over, how people complained about Mystra, the Chosen, Elminster (as the OP is doing)--I guess they're the ones who lacked imagination and couldn't use the setting until WotC swooped down and "fixed" it all for them. Also, there are tons of undetailed areas in the current setting. How come people don't talk about the Border Kingdoms, or the Shaar? No, the complainers need to focus on Mystra and her Chosen. Emotions are running high right now and I don't want to get mean, but I see no reason to be "nice" and let stupid, thoughtless comments about those who prefer the old Realms "lacking imagination" go unchallenged.
GothicDan 01-12-08, 07:36 PM	To develop absolutely no opinion about what we DO know about the 4E changes, in fear of being "wrong," is ridiculous. We should develop opinions - and change them later, if necessary. I say what I do and don't like as it's made apparent. If we were all to eternally reserve judgment for the future, none of us would ever form any opinions at all. Living in the moment, sort of. I WAS happy when I thought 4E was getting rid of Sorcerers, and praised it for that. Turned out I was mistaken, but I DID react to this positively. As to lacking creativity? I won't even begin on that one. It's direct attacks on peoples' characters.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 07:42 PM	I think everyone should just sit, calm down, and have a soothing cup of tea:D Actually, I just finished my tea.;) This whole debacle is driving a wedge in between the whole community. No doubt.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 07:51 PM	I think that the solution is to IMMEDIATLY HALT the tossing around of ignorant, biased, anger-fueled stereotypes on both sides. Not all players who like the Classic Realms are bitter, sulking grognards who have no creativity, and not all players who support 4e are a bunch of dumb, lazy teenagers who are looking for WoW on pen and paper just so they have another source of "phat lewz." Also, why is everyone specifically attacking Richard Baker? Other minds were at work in the changes as well. For all we know, Rich could have just been the executioner, and the mastermind could have been someone else entirely. Even if he did carry out some of the more repulsive ones, we aren't going to change anything by insulting or degrading him and in the end, it only makes people look like a pack of bitter old fools. Everyone should express their opinion on things, but please do so in a polite and respectful way that actually encourages constructive criticism rather than flaming.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 07:56 PM	I think that the solution is to IMMEDIATLY HALT the tossing around of ignorant, biased, anger-fueled stereotypes on both sides. Not all players who like the Classic Realms are bitter, sulking grognards who have no creativity, and not all players who support 4e are a bunch of dumb, lazy teenagers who are looking for WoW on pen and paper just so they have another source of "phat lewz." Agreed. I would like to point out, though, that many people who dislike the 4E Realms are actually interested in 4E "core". I certainly am.:) Also, why is everyone specifically attacking Richard Baker? I thought the attacks on Rich Baker had ceased a while ago. The "Rich Baker MUST be stopped!" meme is still alive and kicking, but Mr. Baker himself seems to know that it's used (mostly?) in good fun.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 07:59 PM	Agreed. I would like to point out, though, that many people who dislike the 4E Realms are actually interested in 4E "core". I certainly am.:) I thought the attacks on Rich Baker had ceased a while ago. The "Rich Baker MUST be stopped!" meme is still alive and kicking, but Mr. Baker himself seems to know that it's used (mostly?) in good fun. Same, same. I actually am interested in the 4E Realms to a degree too. Many of the changes are just too disruptive, but the Realms aren't dead yet for me. I can't make any definitive decisions until I get the FRCS. Um, some people on these boards (not mentioning any names of course) seem to take the Rich Baker thing very seriously.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 08:16 PM	Same, same. I actually am interested in the 4E Realms to a degree too. Many of the changes are just too disruptive, but the Realms aren't dead yet for me. I can't make any definitive decisions until I get the FRCS. And of course, there's always the opinion to use the pre-4E Realms.:) Um, some people on these boards (not mentioning any names of course) seem to take the Rich Baker thing very seriously. But my point is that most aren't.:) Most people are aware that Rich Baker is just the "face" of the FR design team here, and it's most vocal member. Which I appreciate, btw.
jimmyjimjam01 01-12-08, 08:44 PM	Im also looking forward to the 4.0 change. Also looking forward to getting run over by a car.
GreenKnight 01-12-08, 09:07 PM	As for as the 4E Realms are concerned, I'd say I'm about 60% Negative/30% Neutral/10% Positive. It was mostly negative at first, but some of the latter changes I'm fairly neutral towards (I.E. I don't need them in the Realms, but I don't mind them). My list would be something like this... NEGATIVE - The death of Mystra and destruction of the Weave. I'm still not happy about this, and I still contend that you don't have to kill Mystra or destroy the Weave to explain away the changes in magic. And worst of all, she's killed by Cyric. What a detestable turn of events. Not to mention that killing Mystra scours off a chunk of what makes the Realms the Realms. She's the standard bearer for the Forgottem Realms. She's to the Realms what Spider-Man is to Marvel Comics, what Superman is to DC Comics, etc. She's the embodiment of the spirit of this game world. If anyone shouldn't be killed off, it's Mystra. - The Tyr/Tymora/Helm love triangle. Nearly every single character involved, from Tyr, to Sune, to Tymora, acted out of character. The plot holes were big enough to drive a truck through ("You're right, Tyr. Siamorphe, a Demigod, joining me throws the balance out of whack. So here's Tymora, an Intermediate God who's nearly a Greater God in return. That ought to fix the balance right up!" :confused: ). Pretty much the only one in character was Helm, and he got killed for his troubles. Notice also how, after the end of it, Tyr was short another two Intermediate Gods (Helm and Ilmater)? Why didn't he go to Sune and demand she hand over a couple more gods to even things out (The whole thing started because of Siamorphe defecting to Brightwater, and Tyr says nothing when Ilmater also defects to Brightwater)? And of course, with Ilmater gone, the Triad's been shafted, as well as anyone who worshipped the Triad (like the Triadic Knights). - Reducing gods which have a history of being worshipped to a 4E Demigod. Demigods in prior editions were worshipped, had Clerics, and had churches. The 4E Demigod, however, has none of that. I don't like the idea that gods like Deneir are losing their churches, worshippers, and Clerics. - Combining Sehanine and Selune. They have some similarities, sure, but that doesn't mean they should be combined into the same god. The two have incompatible origins. It MIGHT be possible to make them fit, but I very much doubt they're going to try. Whatever the case, Selune is an integral Realms deity, and she shouldn't be fiddled with like that. And if she and Sehanine are the same, then why is it that Sehanine hasn't used her Selune persona on other worlds that she's active on to garner human worshippers? Not to mention that I'm afraid that this may result in Shar/Lolth also being combined (We don't know this for a fact, though, so I don't want to harp on something which is just a guess, not a fact). - Combining Talos and Gruumsh into one. Aside from being one-eyed and CE, do these two really have anything in common? They certainly don't have any Portfolios in common (Talos has Storms, Destruction, Rebellion, Conflagrations, Earthquakes, and Vortices. Gruumsh has Orcs, Conquest, Survival, Strength, and Territory). They're two different gods about two different things. So what justifies them being merged into one? Personally, I like the idea of having traditionally racial gods being worshipped by several races (Bahamut, for instance. It'd be cool if he were worshipped by Dragons, Dragonborn, Humans, Elves, and Air Genasi, for starters). But what I don't like is taking two separate gods with little to do with each other and mashing them together. - Killing off Vhaeraun. I can live without Selvetarm. I can live without Kiaransalee. But damn it, I liked Vhaeraun. Sucks to see him go. :( NEUTRAL - While it's a shame, I'm not going to miss Gorm Gulthyn, Haela Brightaxe, Laduguer, Deep Duerra, Kiaransalee, Selvetarm, or Savras. - Baldur's Gate becoming a pee-riddled shanty town. I never paid it any mind, so this doesn't bug me much. Although I can see why it'd bug others. - Sespech and Chondath getting shafted. Sucks about that, but the Changing Lands may provide some entertainment in their place, so while not good, not bad, either. - The addition of Tymanther. Unther had already been plowed once by Mulhorand, so it doesn't really make a difference if they get plowed, again. While I would've preferred to have seen the Dragonborn introduced in other ways, I'm ok with the way they were introduced (Not as if they'd be the first planar immigrants to Faerun, anyway). - The 94 year time jump. This has its good parts and its bad parts. The downside is that there were tons of plotlines that I liked from the current timeline that I'm sad to see them moving away from. Not to mention that pretty much every human, half-elf, and other shortlived NPC is pretty much going to be dead in 4E. The good parts, however, is that advancing the timeline opens up a whole host of new and interesting plotlines. I guess it's somewhat comparable to TOS/TNG. When TNG came out, it sucked that they moved forward a century, and the TOS era was gone, the TOS characters were nearly all dead. But the advanced timeline presented new opportunities. We'll see, but for now, I'm chalking this one up as a Neutral. POSITIVE - The return of Netheril. I'm looking forward to this (I'm also pretty pleased with them cutting Anauroch down a notch or two). - The evolution of Cormyr. I'm also liking the possibilities from having it placed in opposition to Netheril. - Sembia becoming a puppet state of Netheril, with their ruling caste in exile in the Vast. I'm getting a picture of Vichy France, here, and it's not so bad. - And, of course, Torm is in, and Tyr is out. :P (Hopefully this'll also lead to Tymora going back to Brightwater and Siamorphe and Ilmater returning to the House of the Triad. One can hope). Overall, the net effect on me is something like this: 1) When running the Realms, I'll take everything in A Grand History of the Realms as canon, save for the last two or three pages. So essentially I'll run a 3E Realms game. The only real change I'll make is to account for the difference of magic. Most likely by simply having Mystra decide to change the rules of magic on her own for some reason (I'll come up with something more concrete should I ever get around to running a 4E Realms game). 2) If I play in a 4E Realms game, I'll suggest the DM do the same as the above. I doubt it'd be tough to find a gaming group who'd want to keep playing in the 1370's (Hell, I once found a group who prefered to play Pre-Time of Troubles!). 3) Living Forgotten Realms. This is where I'll need to accept the 4E Realms changes whole cloth. Assuming we've seen the worst of the changes, then I'll be able to do that. While I'd prefer to play LFR in the current Realms, there's still enough left of it in 4E for me to enjoy it. I just hope to God that the Southeast US gets a decent region. Preferably the Vast. I'd love to play a Paladin of Torm from Tantras defending the Vast from Zhent aggression, as well as from Netheril's Sembian puppets. :D
Dark Wizard 01-12-08, 09:45 PM	...their are way to many gods in the realms, there seems to be one god for every different race and human ethnic group on the planet for everything. That's often how a pantheon works. Even monotheistic religions have saints for every concept, virtue, place, nation, event, or day of the year under the sun To me the Realms have just been too way over developed it is in desperate need of some trimming; you cannot walk down a quiet forest trail without tripping over some epically powerful artifact that Elminster probably dropped while engaged in the throes of passion with some buxom nymph that likes hairy old men (whether they can shape change or not).... In that scenario it's up to the DM whether that epic artifact is there. You don't have to use everything, but it's there if you want it. I like the idea of many of the nations in the realms becoming greatly weakened Almost none of the nations are being weakened. If anything FR is more high power than it was before. We have the return of Netheril under the guidance of Shade with Sembia under their wing. Cormyr is stronger and larger than in 3e. Myth Drannor/Cormanthor is re-established. Thay is still there. Waterdeep and Silverymoon/Luruar are still there. Baldur's Gate is more prominent than before. The new changes destroyed Unther which was in decline anymore, but in it's place is a well organized nation of martial dragon men. Chondath is gone, but Chondath wasn't exactly a power during the years covered by 1e/2e/3e to begin with. I read somewhere that someone wanted the Simbul to become the next goddess of magic which i think is a good idea, to me she personifies the raw powerful nature of magic in its purest form and I think her personality would be a good fit for being a god ( I do not want Elminster be it, the realms need a god of magic, not another one for sex drugs and rock and roll)..... If the designers hold true to their plan, there will not be a new god of magic in the 4E Realms, or any god of magic with any resemblance to Mystra at all. But all these thoughts are thinking of previous versions of DD....What I would like to see with the new changes are less feats and prestige classes (enough is enough, some are downright stupid), These are not going away. From what I've heard of 4E rules, PCs get more feats over their careers, as well as racial abilities. The concept of Prestige classes is incorporated into levels 11-20 with some modification. I would like the system of magic changed dramatically (get rid of the wish spell and make it extremely difficult for anyone to be raised or resurrected when I put together campaigns, spells like raise dead never existed and resurrection is a spell of epic level that fails more often then succeeds) what is the point of fearing for ones life or struggling to survive if your like, oh I can just raise them if they die. This is also unlikely, most of these spells will likely be remade into rituals. My guess anyway.
rikkiwalker 01-12-08, 11:47 PM	I seem to have struck a nerve......
18DELTA 01-12-08, 11:51 PM	Um, some people on these boards (not mentioning any names of course) seem to take the Rich Baker thing very seriously. -What do you mean me?;) That is me having a "good time".:rofl: I really respect Rich for all the heat he takes from some of us(me included).:D I try to have fun around here, its a way for me to unwind after a days work(with adolescent kids that are trying to get off dope in a rehab:) ). -Oh yeah he still needs to be stopped!!!:P LORD DELTA:fight!:
rikkiwalker 01-12-08, 11:54 PM	Positive towards a new setting s/he hasn't read, and negative -- with regurgitated nonfactual clichés -- for the current setting which s/he seems not to have read either. I have been reading the current setting since it came out and liked it better then the previous and as for my "regurgitated nonfactual clichés", they may be clichés, but I am not the only one who is saying them
Alediran 01-13-08, 12:00 AM	I have been reading the current setting since it came out and liked it better then the previous and as for my "regurgitated nonfactual clichés", they may be clichés, but I am not the only one who is saying them Just because your aren't the only one saying it, it doesn't means it's true. Eat crap, millions of flies can't be wrong. And a lot more other quotes like those.
rikkiwalker 01-13-08, 12:02 AM	It's a voice that is barely comprehendable, and it's pretty clear that the OP knows little, if anything, about the character of Elminster. Well you must forgive me as I have difficulty expressing what I mean in a very articulate manner as i am new to blogs and all.....But I have about as much info on Elminsters character as most; I should after reading every book he was in (with the exception of Elminster in Hell and Elminsters Daughter; they were both pretty bad.
rikkiwalker 01-13-08, 12:06 AM	Just because your aren't the only one saying it, it doesn't means it's true. Eat crap, millions of flies can't be wrong. And a lot more other quotes like those. Wow....REALLY struck a nerve.......What a bitter piece of work you must be to take such offense.
rikkiwalker 01-13-08, 12:07 AM	Just because your aren't the only one saying it, it doesn't means it's true. Eat crap, millions of flies can't be wrong. And a lot more other quotes like those. Oh and gold elves SUCK
XHereticX 01-13-08, 12:10 AM	-What do you mean me?;) That is me having a "good time".:rofl: I really respect Rich for all the heat he takes from some of us(me included).:D I try to have fun around here, its a way for me to unwind after a days work(with adolescent kids that are trying to get off dope in a rehab:) ). -Oh yeah he still needs to be stopped!!!:P LORD DELTA:fight!: No, I actually wasn't talking about you. I knew you were kidding around. Rikkiwalker:I agree, Elminster in Hell was pretty bad. Hundreds of pages containing nothing but torture, flashbacks, and random scenes of supposed "archdevils" acting more like a pack of low life Tana'ri isn't particuarly entertaining. To cap it all off, in the end we have The Simbul once again flashing her mighty munchkiness but killing no less than 5 archdevils. Way to crap on my favorite planar race:rolleyes: Only read part of Elminster's Daughter, and frankly I don't recommend that either. Please everyone, try to keep the maturity level above puberty.
rikkiwalker 01-13-08, 12:15 AM	Only read part of Elminster's Daughter, and frankly I don't recommend that either. Book Spoiler: Her mother was a song dragon :rolleyes:
XHereticX 01-13-08, 12:17 AM	Only read part of Elminster's Daughter, and frankly I don't recommend that either. Whoa, you didn't have to spoil it for me. I might have decided to read it anyway.
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 12:17 AM	Not all players who like the Classic Realms are bitter, sulking grognards who have no creativity, and not all players who support 4e are a bunch of dumb, lazy teenagers who are looking for WoW on pen and paper just so they have another source of "phat lewz." -Phat jews? I know a couple of them...:cool: Wow....REALLY struck a nerve.......What a bitter piece of work you must be to take such offense. -Um...Why don't you go back and read Alediran's response again? Better yet, I'll translate that for you: Just because plenty of people are saying something doesn't make it true. Objectivism at it's finest.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 12:24 AM	-Phat jews? I know a couple of them...:cool: . I know no phat jews, but I know plenty of skinny, annoying ones;)
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 12:25 AM	I know no phat jews, but I know plenty of skinny, annoying ones;) -Me? ;)
rikkiwalker 01-13-08, 12:27 AM	-Phat jews? I know a couple of them...:cool: -Um...Why don't you go back and read Alediran's response again? Better yet, I'll translate that for you: Just because plenty of people are saying something doesn't make it true. Objectivism at it's finest. I was referring to the part where it seemed he was telling me to "Eat Crap"
XHereticX 01-13-08, 12:29 AM	-Me? ;) Your a jew? Starts singing: "Throw the Jew in the well, so my country can be free. You must grab them by their money, and we'll have a big party:D" :clap: :clap: :clap: BTW Karsus, I looked a little more into Objectivism and found the moral philosophy to my liking, though I highly disagree with Rand's Epistomology (for god's sake, objects are not so simple as to be able to gain absolute context through simple measurement).
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 12:37 AM	I was referring to the part where it seemed he was telling me to "Eat Crap" -That's how the quotation goes: "Eat crap. Millions of flies can't all be wrong". Your a jew? -Aw, I don't want to go in the well. It's wet and creepy down there...
18DELTA 01-13-08, 12:58 AM	No, I actually wasn't talking about you. I knew you were kidding around. -Kewl, fellow Hand.;) :schemes: -He must be stopped!!!:D Please everyone, try to keep the maturity level above puberty. -That would be no fun.:rolleyes: LORD DELTA:fight!:
XHereticX 01-13-08, 01:02 AM	-Kewl, fellow Hand.;) :schemes: -He must be stopped!!!:D -That would be no fun.:rolleyes: LORD DELTA:fight!: True, the ironic thing is I'm most likely younger than everyone else here, and I'm the one telling people to act mature:rolleyes:
Philalexandros 01-13-08, 02:05 AM	So I left the States back in the end of summer to take up an assignment in Europe. Shortly afterwards, I left for Afghanistan. Through much of this time, I hadn't been able to log on and catch up. As you can imagine, 4E was a big surprise for me. What has been an even bigger surprise to me, though, is the reasoning used by some individuals to justify the "pruning" the Realms are going to suffer. Honestly, what kind of thought process leads someone to view the Realms as intimidating? Are there honestly people who feel there is some sort of driving imperative to memorize all the data regarding regions, cultures, societies, religions, etc., in the dozen plus sourcebooks published in the 3E/3.5E era alone? Here's a newsflash: if your campaign happens to be in the Moonsea region... you probably don't need to sweat the Unapproachable East. If you don't have someone in your campaign (PC or NPC) that worships a specific deity... you probably don't have to worry about keeping track of it. And, by far my favorite... If you don't want Elminster, Drizzt, Alustriel, Khelben, etc., stealing your PCs' thunder... don't have them do so. No one has ever been under any obligation to use anything other than the FRCS and a handful of other books. While I could argue that certain sourcebooks are beneficial for having an optimal amount of data available (Races of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, Faiths and Pantheons, Players Guide to Faerun, and Lost Empires of Faerun), there's nothing that mandates anyone to purchase the regional sourcebooks and optional rulebooks. More importantly, none of the complaints leveled against the old Realms really have anything to do with the Realms. They simply betray a fundamental lack of understanding where the business of gaming products is concerned. Each and every campaign setting ever developed by a gaming company was intended to be just as much a source of profit as it was a place to game in. That simply reality dictates that every gaming world must grow (sourcebooks, additional products) in order for the company making it to meet the bottom line. The only difference between FR and, say, DL, is that DL ultimately failed (but is being brought back). The only difference between Eberron and the Realms is a matter of time and success. If Eberron is successful, who honestly thinks that it won't become "intimidating" and "too deep" in its own way? WotC could have been so much smarter about re-releasing the Realms. It's very hard to go back once you retcon and kill off certain defining elements.
18DELTA 01-13-08, 02:33 AM	True, the ironic thing is I'm most likely younger than everyone else here, and I'm the one telling people to act mature:rolleyes: -True, now you get to see what awaits you later in life.;) LORD DELTA:fight!:
WizO_Mimir 01-13-08, 09:13 AM	Let's stop with the ethnic slurs, even though they appear to be tongue-in-cheek. Routing this thread back on topic. All aboard!
GothicDan 01-13-08, 11:12 AM	I love Jews! That being said - Rikki, are you actually trying to make people take you seriously, or trolling? This is a sincere question.
Jiggawha 01-13-08, 11:15 AM	Heya, Limited imagination? That's quite a heavy charge. You know what I think? I think anti-3rd Ed Realms people have limited imagination. They lack imagination because they can't use the setting because it's "too detailed"... TOO detailed? How ridiculous is that? Here's a setting where you're literally tripping over plot hooks in source material, and somehow that's a turn off. I'm sorry for the lack of imagination comment. There is the other kind of ''anti-3rd Ed Realms people'' beside the ones you've mentioned, I think that the simplification of the Realms started with the 3E but after reading 1479 article I was thrilled, hundreds of new plot hooks came to my mind, weren't you sick of RSEs happening every few months, now we have a lot more options (we had them before and everything wasn't detailed I know, but still, and I intend to use time gates more than ever). And who cares about all the theoretical explanations of the religion/plane/magic changes and how it affects until now ''sacred'' canon ? Our group won't. You can still use dead gods in so many ways ...
18DELTA 01-13-08, 12:01 PM	-I will check out the FRCG in August. If I like it I may buy it.;) LORD DELTA:fight!:
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 02:06 PM	So I left the States back in the end of summer to take up an assignment in Europe. Shortly afterwards, I left for Afghanistan. Through much of this time, I hadn't been able to log on and catch up. As you can imagine, 4E was a big surprise for me. What has been an even bigger surprise to me, though, is the reasoning used by some individuals to justify the "pruning" the Realms are going to suffer. Honestly, what kind of thought process leads someone to view the Realms as intimidating? Are there honestly people who feel there is some sort of driving imperative to memorize all the data regarding regions, cultures, societies, religions, etc., in the dozen plus sourcebooks published in the 3E/3.5E era alone? Here's a newsflash: if your campaign happens to be in the Moonsea region... you probably don't need to sweat the Unapproachable East. If you don't have someone in your campaign (PC or NPC) that worships a specific deity... you probably don't have to worry about keeping track of it. And, by far my favorite... If you don't want Elminster, Drizzt, Alustriel, Khelben, etc., stealing your PCs' thunder... don't have them do so. No one has ever been under any obligation to use anything other than the FRCS and a handful of other books. While I could argue that certain sourcebooks are beneficial for having an optimal amount of data available (Races of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, Faiths and Pantheons, Players Guide to Faerun, and Lost Empires of Faerun), there's nothing that mandates anyone to purchase the regional sourcebooks and optional rulebooks. More importantly, none of the complaints leveled against the old Realms really have anything to do with the Realms. They simply betray a fundamental lack of understanding where the business of gaming products is concerned. Each and every campaign setting ever developed by a gaming company was intended to be just as much a source of profit as it was a place to game in. That simply reality dictates that every gaming world must grow (sourcebooks, additional products) in order for the company making it to meet the bottom line. The only difference between FR and, say, DL, is that DL ultimately failed (but is being brought back). The only difference between Eberron and the Realms is a matter of time and success. If Eberron is successful, who honestly thinks that it won't become "intimidating" and "too deep" in its own way? WotC could have been so much smarter about re-releasing the Realms. It's very hard to go back once you retcon and kill off certain defining elements. -Don't try to reason with 'em ('em being the type of person to need this advice). They are set in their ways, and no matter how many times this kind of information is repeated, it doesn't stick.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 05:17 PM	-Don't try to reason with 'em ('em being the type of person to need this advice). They are set in their ways, and no matter how many times this kind of information is repeated, it doesn't stick. I could say the same for both sides and not just one;)
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 05:39 PM	I could say the same for both sides and not just one;) -Truth, but the particular side I am referenceing bases it's facts on lies, in the extreme, and misunderstandings.
Storm_Silverhand 01-13-08, 05:42 PM	Heya, There is the other kind of ''anti-3rd Ed Realms people'' beside the ones you've mentioned, I think that the simplification of the Realms started with the 3E but after reading 1479 article I was thrilled, hundreds of new plot hooks came to my mind, weren't you sick of RSEs happening every few months, now we have a lot more options (we had them before and everything wasn't detailed I know, but still, and I intend to use time gates more than ever). And who cares about all the theoretical explanations of the religion/plane/magic changes and how it affects until now ''sacred'' canon ? Our group won't. You can still use dead gods in so many ways ... I was sick of RSEs, I think most of us were. But just because they're unleashing the mother of all RSEs to change editions doesn't mean there won't be RSEs afterwards... In fact, the Realms have been set up in a way that suggests that future RSEs won't be all that hard to incorporate (after all, they have plenty of explanations for how one might occur - Changelands anyone?). I don't want to be forced to use dead gods. I want Mystra alive and well, thank you. I want Eilistraee to be Eilistraee and not this Eilisraun impostor (if she even survives to 4th Edition, remember the Sava game is to the death). And so many other changes that were just not necessary IMHO... But I've gone through it all so many times, I don't really feel like listing them all again. Maybe I'll write an entry in my LiveJournal just on the changes that take the Realms in directions I don't want to follow and refer people to it every time this comes up.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 05:45 PM	-Truth, but the particular side I am referenceing bases it's facts on lies, in the extreme, and misunderstandings. I could say the same for individuals on both sides as well. Each argument has its Rhode Scholars, and each side has its trolls.:)
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 05:48 PM	I could say the same for individuals on both sides as well. Each argument has its Rhode Scholars, and each side has its trolls.:) -Trolls can be Rhode Scholars, too. 4e is all about equal empowerment for all races! :P
XHereticX 01-13-08, 05:52 PM	-Trolls can be Rhode Scholars, too. 4e is all about equal empowerment for all races! :P Which explains the blatant racism inherent in D&D that dooms most races to an existance of mindless slaughter by so called "heroes.":rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 06:03 PM	-Orcs deserve slaughter.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 06:04 PM	-Orcs deserve slaughter. See, it has had an effect on supposedly open-minded people already:mad:
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 06:18 PM	See, it has had an effect on supposedly open-minded people already:mad: -Orcs have, and always will be Orcs, and thus, need to be killed. That's just deeply embedded fantasy talking right there.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-13-08, 06:21 PM	NEGATIVE - The death of Mystra and destruction of the Weave. I'm still not happy about this, and I still contend that you don't have to kill Mystra or destroy the Weave to explain away the changes in magic. Remember that the other reason (perhaps the primary reason) was to appease those people who felt that Mystra (and by extension, her Chosen) dominated the setting. :-/ And I think some of the developers felt the same way, going by their comments.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-13-08, 06:25 PM	I have been reading the current setting since it came out and liked it better then the previous and as for my "regurgitated nonfactual clichés", they may be clichés, but I am not the only one who is saying them Then the other people saying them are wrong, too.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 06:26 PM	-Orcs have, and always will be Orcs, and thus, need to be killed. That's just deeply embedded fantasy talking right there. Unless you are in the "dramatic pause".....WORLD OF WARCRAFT.....:cool:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-13-08, 06:32 PM	Honestly, what kind of thought process leads someone to view the Realms as intimidating? Are there honestly people who feel there is some sort of driving imperative to memorize all the data regarding regions, cultures, societies, religions, etc., in the dozen plus sourcebooks published in the 3E/3.5E era alone? I guess so, because said individuals like to show up here and mention how intimidated they are.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-13-08, 06:38 PM	I'm sorry for the lack of imagination comment. There is the other kind of ''anti-3rd Ed Realms people'' beside the ones you've mentioned, I think that the simplification of the Realms started with the 3E but after reading 1479 article I was thrilled, hundreds of new plot hooks came to my mind, weren't you sick of RSEs happening every few months, now we have a lot more options (we had them before and everything wasn't detailed I know, but still...) Uh, we either had tons of options before these changes took place, or we didn't. I say we DID have tons of options before, and these changes weren't necessary for the purpose of generating plot hooks.
GreenKnight 01-13-08, 06:43 PM	-Orcs deserve slaughter. Agreed. Have I mentioned the time my character walked into an inn full of orcs and dropped a fireball on them? Yes? Well, let me mention it, again. I WALKED INTO AN INN FULL OF ORCS, WHO WERE OCCUPIED IN THEIR OWN CONVERSATIONS AND, WITHOUT PROVOCATION, I DROPPED A FIREBALL DOWN ON THEIR HEADS!!! As you may imagine, the rest of the party wasn't to happy at the conflagration I caused (all that alcohol sure was flammable). Filthy pigsnouts had it coming, though. And it sure was fun watching them cook. :angel: Remember that the other reason (perhaps the primary reason) was to appease those people who felt that Mystra (and by extension, her Chosen) dominated the setting. :-/ A damn shame, no matter what the reason. :( Mystra's the heart and soul of the Realms. It's a sad thing to see her gone. With the exception of the character described above, I've never played a worshipper of her, but I've always liked her, and she's always been a favorite. She helped define the Realms for me, and I'd imagine for many, many more. Well, hopefully they'll someday realize the error of their ways and bring her back.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-13-08, 06:49 PM	I WALKED INTO AN INN FULL OF ORCS, WHO WERE OCCUPIED IN THEIR OWN CONVERSATIONS AND, WITHOUT PROVOCATION, I DROPPED A FIREBALL DOWN ON THEIR HEADS!!! :clap: A damn shame, no matter what the reason. :( Mystra's the heart and soul of the Realms. It's a sad thing to see her gone. With the exception of the character described above, I've never played a worshipper of her, but I've always liked her, and she's always been a favorite. She helped define the Realms for me, and I'd imagine for many, many more. She helped define the Realms for me, too.:(
MarkusTay63 01-13-08, 06:55 PM	Note Avatar... I am WATCHING. :emp: ---MarkusTay, president and CEO of - Monsters International Liberation Front, or MILFs for short. ;) Defending ALL Intelligent Species, despite race, creed or color. :fight!:
GreenKnight 01-13-08, 06:57 PM	:clap: :bow:
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 07:05 PM	Unless you are in the "dramatic pause".....WORLD OF WARCRAFT.....:cool: -Never played it. Agreed. Have I mentioned the time my character walked into an inn full of orcs and dropped a fireball on them? Yes? Well, let me mention it, again. I WALKED INTO AN INN FULL OF ORCS, WHO WERE OCCUPIED IN THEIR OWN CONVERSATIONS AND, WITHOUT PROVOCATION, I DROPPED A FIREBALL DOWN ON THEIR HEADS!!! As you may imagine, the rest of the party wasn't to happy at the conflagration I caused (all that alcohol sure was flammable). Filthy pigsnouts had it coming, though. And it sure was fun watching them cook. :angel: -Bravo, bravo! Any chance for an encore?
XHereticX 01-13-08, 07:43 PM	Note Avatar... I am WATCHING. :emp: ---MarkusTay, president and CEO of - Monsters International Liberation Front, or MILFs for short. ;) Defending Intelligent Species, despite race, creed or color. :fight!: Yeah, that's right. Fight the power. Bump for Orcish rights now. :bump:
Alediran 01-13-08, 07:54 PM	A fireball? That's just regular. How about an Empowered Twinned Maximized Chain Lightning. I once made a character with the ISC line of feats to be able to do just that.
GreenKnight 01-13-08, 09:49 PM	A fireball? That's just regular. How about an Empowered Twinned Maximized Chain Lightning. I once made a character with the ISC line of feats to be able to do just that. It was 2nd edition. :P I'm not sure, but I think the character was a Cleric who, through the use of the Skills & Powers supplement, had gained the ability to cast one Wizard School as Cleric spells (Evocation, naturally). -Bravo, bravo! Any chance for an encore? In another game, the party snuck up on a camp of Orcs having a party. Not doing anything villainous. Just beating drums and whooping it up around a flame. So naturally I saddled up, hefted my lance, and was about to start riding them down. That's when my DM informed me that A) I was playing a Paladin, and B) They were Ondonti. I decided to spare them, despite knowing the truth about Point B. Namely that they're just Orcs who changed their name in order to hide from me. But I saw right through their trick. Next time I run into an Ondonti, it's gonna die, no matter HOW peaceful it claims to be. Mark my words.
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 11:16 PM	But I saw right through their trick. Next time I run into an Ondonti, it's gonna die, no matter HOW peaceful it claims to be. Mark my words. -That's the spirit. The only good Orc is a dead Orc.
Rauric 01-14-08, 12:13 AM	Ya know in the new FR book Mystra might be back. It is 96 years later.
18DELTA 01-14-08, 01:16 AM	Ya know in the new FR book Mystra might be back. It is 96 years later. -Actually according to "A Grand History of the Realms" on page #4 the current year is 1375 DR, the Year of Risen Elfkin. So we get a 104 year timeline advancement.:teach: :rofl: ;) :P :D LORD DELTA:fight!:
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 01:52 AM	Ya know in the new FR book Mystra might be back. It is 96 years later. -That would be the biggest cop out...That would only make matters worse. I've said this once, I've said it again- They've pulled the trigger, now deal with everything that comes with it. -Yes, I know that a century or so has passed in the campaign setting. But, not even a year will have passed in actual life. I agree with everyone else that a quest to raise Mystra would be the campaign to end all campaigns. However, let some time pass in the actual world, and make her death meaningful. Killing her at the end of AGHotR in October 2007, leaving her dead for the months to follow, and then raising her in the 4e FRCS in August (?) 2008 makes the entire debacle feel even more like a forced plothook. Come 2010, 2011, a Raise Mystra! adventure/novel would be awesome.
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 02:05 AM	Hey! -That's the spirit. The only good Orc is a dead Orc.Bad enough your crazy pal Ioulium tried to commit genocide on us (after stealing OUR land), but now 1/3 of a momentary god is giving me lip?! :ahem: As an Ondonti Mage-Priest of Mystra, you have offended me on two fronts, sir! First you 'rape' my goddess of her powers, and now you belittle my people's greatness - a people who had invented fire a full three days before your own! (and we were only around 60,000 years longer). ;) In another game, the party snuck up on a camp of Orcs having a party. Not doing anything villainous. Just beating drums and whooping it up around a flame. So naturally I saddled up, hefted my lance, and was about to start riding them down. That's when my DM informed me that A) I was playing a Paladin, and B) They were Ondonti. I decided to spare them, despite knowing the truth about Point B. Namely that they're just Orcs who changed their name in order to hide from me. But I saw right through their trick. Next time I run into an Ondonti, it's gonna die, no matter HOW peaceful it claims to be. Mark my words.I see you're already running one of those amoral 4e Paladins... :rolleyes:
GreenKnight 01-14-08, 02:09 AM	I see you're already running one of those amoral 4e Paladins... :rolleyes: I didn't actually attack them. Can I help it, though, if my first reaction upon seeing Orcs is to kill on sight? :P
Arliekkos 01-14-08, 02:39 AM	Frankly I'm quite amazed that a good many of the posts I've seen so far are of people complaining about the Realms and the lack of things to do that haven't already been done, or why one of the villified NPC's can't simply do it with the snap of a finger etc. So much in fact it seems to have come to the point that WoTC have given into a very loud minority (imho) and have literally trashed several decades worth of work and history and almost countless storyline/plotline/whatever that could have been developed by DM's, game designers and authors to placate the 'evil is cool' crowd. Many of the changes, if not all of 4e could have been worked into the existing world with a fairly seemless transition. One need only look so far as to many of the well thought out if not brilliant ideas of the passionate members of the FR community on these boards. Cries that the FR setting is too 'daunting' for newer players is a load of wash and if that was/is a legitimate concern then why not simply come out with an updated version of the FR campaign guide. As many of the more level headed posters have stated again and again, having all of the books ever printed for the FR is not a requirement for the game. It never has been for any game. Such foaming rabid hatred for many of the settings NPC's frankly surprises me but I guess that once again a lot of this can be contributed to the 'evil is cool' section of players and to the section of powergamers that want to be the big billy bad arse on the block with no one able to lift a finger to oppose whatever iron will they wish to inflict on the world. Which is what I think most of that comes down to. It's been said ad nauseum that if these NPC's are such a thorn in the side of the players that the DM is misusing them from their original intent as flavor for the Realms. Over developed world in what way? That's there nothing left to do? I'd like to end this (I suppose it's a rant) with the following. "May: The Geography of Faerûn It's chapter four, and it starts with this: "Seeing every kingdom, every city-state, every mountain range and forest and ruined castle of Faerûn would be the journey of a dozen human lifetimes." Those of you that've visited the Realms before will buy in to that statement. And if you've not yet had the pleasure, you'll understand just how true it is after you've taken a look at pages 98 through 231. (That's 133 pages for those of you who, like me, find that Math is Hard.) Of course when you've finished looking at the Geography chapter, you've still got the map to contend with. (Ah, wait 'til you see the map. And don't be surprised if you find yourself checking the phone book for framing shops afterward.) Taken all at once, the Realms is quite huge, even a bit daunting. It's like a hundred pound chocolate chip cookie -- you know every bit of it is going to be good, there's more than you can handle in one sitting, and figuring out where to start is going to be a happy problem. The thing is, even when you break that übercookie into smaller bits, each piece still going to be packed with chocolaty goodness. And that's the Forgotten Realms setting for you -- absolutely jam-packed with great stuff, from coast-to-coast. Just as an example, there's a wooded area called the Forest of Wyrms that's about 200 miles east/northeast of Baldur's Gate. Curiously enough, it's described as being home to a "multitude of green dragons." (There's a great picture that shows a couple of wayward adventurers, one of whom is looking at a map, and the other who is trying to alert him to the trio of chlorine gas-breathing nasties that are coming out of the woodwork.) Many a would-be dragon-slayer ventures into the Forest. Some of them even make it back out. The thing is, while a wooded territory controlled by dragons is a more than interesting reason for being, it's not the only thing going on in the Forest of Wyrms. Somewhere in its shaded depths lies a castle, known as Lyran's Hold, that was formerly occupied by a lich. And while the lich has long since been slain, newer occupants (the conquering heroes and their successors) seem to have slowly inherited the undead creature's evil nature. (Boy, just when you think you've cleared out a castle that you can turn into your swanky, new headquarters, something BAD happens.) Imagine, if you will, all the possibilities that lie in just those two aspects of a pair of short paragraphs that briefly describe a small forest -- there's literally months and months of potential adventuring derived just from that barely-scratching-the-surface information. I can actually imagine an intrepid DM creating an entire campaign based on those storylines and the resulting complexities that could come from intertwining the two. I honestly have no idea how the game designers have done this. There's just about too much going on in the Forgotten Realms setting to actually decide what to do first. You might want to skip the framing store and pick up a set of darts to help speed the decision-making process -- it's going to be tough."
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 03:19 AM	As an Ondonti Mage-Priest of Mystra, you have offended me on two fronts, sir! First you 'rape' my goddess of her powers, and now you belittle my people's greatness - a people who had invented fire a full three days before your own! (and we were only around 60,000 years longer). ;) -Eh, I've done worse. Take a number and get back in line. Currently, I'm being berated by...a group of people who I apparently stole the land of. And, after them, I am going to be berated by a group of people who I apparently enslaved. You're number three. I'd like to end this (I suppose it's a rant) with the following. -Where is this quotation from?
Arliekkos 01-14-08, 03:31 AM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article3.asp?x=fr/rw20010501a
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 03:46 AM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article3.asp?x=fr/rw20010501a -Cool. "Retro". -Well, according to the current WotC mindset, that was all from the 3e point-of-view, so it's stupid.
Dzwood 01-14-08, 08:19 AM	Note Avatar... I am WATCHING. :emp: ---MarkusTay, president and CEO of - Monsters International Liberation Front, or MILFs for short. ;) Defending ALL Intelligent Species, despite race, creed or color. :fight!: What about semi-intelligent species such as gamers and fanboys?!?!?!?!? What?!?!?! Its just a question!!!
Dzwood 01-14-08, 08:32 AM	I just hope we are not left with a stupd unsolvable mystery the the Mournland in Eberon. I like my mysterys solvable. Thankyou very much
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 08:40 AM	I just hope we are not left with a stupd unsolvable mystery the the Mournland in Eberon. I like my mysterys solvable. Thankyou very much -Well, the Spellplague is the cause of theis magical wasteland.
Storm_Silverhand 01-14-08, 06:15 PM	Heya, Ya know in the new FR book Mystra might be back. It is 96 years later. *sigh* You did know that Rich Baker has pretty much nixxed the idea that Mystra will return in any form? We might get another deity of magic, but they won't be Mystra.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 06:44 PM	*sigh* You did know that Rich Baker has pretty much nixxed the idea that Mystra will return in any form? -Well, that's for now. Give it two, three years, and I wouldn't be surprised.
NoxLupus 01-14-08, 07:19 PM	For me the negativity comes from two places: First, Wizards started work on 4th ed. not even two years after 3rd ed emerged. That tells me they never gave the system a shot, or they thought it was crap from the start and just pawned it off on us to make money. Either answer pisses me off. Second, I really like the way 3.5 shaped up and own the vast majority of books for 3.5. If I had known the system was going to have a life span equal to less than half of the length that the previous two incarnations of D&D I would never have committed so much money to the whole thing. My only interest in 4th Ed now is to see the in game, mechanical repercussions of the death of Mystra, and adapt them back to 3.5 (this is why Barnes and Noble is a great place). Beyond that, I refuse to give Wizards another dime out of my pocket.
Stigger 01-14-08, 08:20 PM	Purified Cloudkill is my preferred weapon against orcs... Purified "anything really destructive" actually... can't lose the good-alignment as easily that way... :D
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 09:20 PM	-Well, according to the current WotC mindset, that was all from the 3e point-of-view, so it's stupid.When I looked at that link, and at the crytal ball in particular, a strange picture popped into my head... You know the movie 2001: A Space Oddyssey? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdoA3AJ6zGE) You know that part when all the monkeys are hopping around and freaking out while looking at that 'rock' in the beginning? Well, that rock is the crystal ball... and the monkeys? Heh... I don't want to get banned. :D Its just sad that 3e had such a positive spin, and 4e has such a negative one.
Leopold_Humperdinck 01-15-08, 01:07 AM	I don't know about 3rd Edition, since I wasn't around back then, but I have noticed that 4th Edition advertising does seem very negative. I remember watching a video showing Dungeons and Dragons progression through the years, and they only portrayed the low points of all of the previous editions, and not the high points.
Alediran 01-15-08, 08:44 AM	When I looked at that link, and at the crytal ball in particular, a strange picture popped into my head... You know the movie 2001: A Space Oddyssey? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdoA3AJ6zGE) You know that part when all the monkeys are hopping around and freaking out while looking at that 'rock' in the beginning? Well, that rock is the crystal ball... and the monkeys? Heh... I don't want to get banned. :D Its just sad that 3e had such a positive spin, and 4e has such a negative one. Or the remake of that scene in Zoolander :D. Priceless.
Alkasyn 01-16-08, 06:23 AM	I don't know about 3rd Edition, since I wasn't around back then, but I have noticed that 4th Edition advertising does seem very negative. I remember watching a video showing Dungeons and Dragons progression through the years, and they only portrayed the low points of all of the previous editions, and not the high points. Thats a simple advertising trick to make the new product look better. There were good things in the past editions, but its not in their interest to tell you about them:)
Rauric 01-16-08, 07:27 AM	A positive thing I found out is Selune is getting a "push" in 4e. I guess she will be an even bigger in Shars side since Mystra is gone. Hopefully Selune will take Mystras "place" in a way. Just in the balance issue, not all powerful deity spot. I dig Selune a lot even though not much was done with her in novels. Maybe that is why I lliker her so much?
XHereticX 01-18-08, 09:20 PM	Hey! I see you're already running one of those amoral 4e Paladins... :rolleyes: Only 4th Edition Paladins?:rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:00 AM	Only 4th Edition Paladins?:rolleyes: -Well, the current definition of Paladin states that one must be 'Lawful' and 'Good', so...
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:13 AM	-Well, the current definition of Paladin states that one must be 'Lawful' and 'Good'... The very definition of evil...
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 02:22 AM	The Knights of the Church during the Inquisition were VERY Lawful and Good... as they burned women and children. There is no good and evil - only our own judgement based on our societies morays. What you think is good - eating a cheeseburger - would be looked at as the ultimate sacrilege to some (hindus). So murder can be good, if done for the right reasons - and those reasons being whatever the hell you believe at the time. Thats why I always had a problem with alignments in D&D; they're too black & white for me.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 02:45 AM	The Knights of the Church during the Inquisition were VERY Lawful and Good... as they burned women and children. -They aren't D&D Paladins, as in they are 'monitored' by the power they follow, with defined punishments for those who fall out of step (losing Paladin abilities).
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:53 PM	The Knights of the Church during the Inquisition were VERY Lawful and Good... as they burned women and children. There is no good and evil - only our own judgement based on our societies morays. What you think is good - eating a cheeseburger - would be looked at as the ultimate sacrilege to some (hindus). So murder can be good, if done for the right reasons - and those reasons being whatever the hell you believe at the time. Thats why I always had a problem with alignments in D&D; they're too black & white for me. Which is why D&D alignments make it simple for you to define the world in contrast to the evershifting gray that is Earth.