Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grandmaster_Kane 04-07-07, 09:46 AM	what are the stats for the menzoberranzan weapon masters? And would Uthegenatl beat Wulfgar in a fight ? I mean Uthegental is suppose to be th biggest drow in history which means he is just topping 6 feet lol and wulfgar is a giant of a man 6'8-6'10 but both have been known to do feats of great strength and you dont get to be the weapon master of the 2nd house in a city of 10 thousand drow by just luck you need some serious skills Ive always thought of the weapons master as this Dantrag: 18 Fighters/ 5 Rougue/ 4 assassin Zakneifin: 24 Fighter/ 3 rouge Uthegental: 12 Fighter/ 15 Barbarain
Alurvelve 04-07-07, 02:55 PM	There is a realms NPC 2 thread on the boards and all 3 of these can be found there. Dantrag Ftr18 Zak Ftr24 Uthegental Bbn17/Ftr4 As who would win in a fight Uthegental or Wulfgar, my money would be on Uthegental. Wulfgar is not on the same level as this guy was imo.
ElGrecoETAC 04-07-07, 04:53 PM	Uthegental was a level 20 Fighter (according to the Menzoberranzan Boxed Set). I imagine Barbarian would suit him quite well, but that would be a custom build. Dantrag Baenre and Zaknafein are spot on, levels-wise. War of the Spider Queen has inspired me to stat out Zaknafein with a 24th-level Fighter build. I think I'll have to re-imagine his equipment, though. Given the examples that we've seen from the WotSQ write-ups, the old boxed set's examples (which were based on Underdark radiation rather than magic) seem kind of meek now...
Lord Karsus 04-07-07, 08:10 PM	-Wulfgar is only around level 10. I don't remember exactly what level he is, but he is in the 7-11 area. He's impressive in the scope of Salvatore's novels, but in the grand scheme of things, like most of Salvatore's characters, they are not really that impressive.
ElGrecoETAC 04-07-07, 08:47 PM	It doesn't even have to be a "level thing." Even within the scope of Salvatore's novels, it is implicit that Uthegental is simply on a different level than Wulfgar. One of the most disappointing sequences I saw in one of the "Companions" novels was in "Siege of Darkness," ... ... when Uthegental was slain by Bidderdoo, the lycanthrope mage. This was after making Bruenor's pet Battlerager, Thibbledorf Pwent, whimper--a first for either Dwarf or Battlerager, IIRC.
AbyssKnight 04-08-07, 12:48 AM	If I recall correctly, Bidderdoo bit Uthengental's neck, breaking the spine and killing him. Game mechanically, I would say that the bite was a critical hit that did more than 50 points of damage, and Uthengental failed the Fort save versus Massive Damage. But I agree, it was disappointing.
Philalexandros 04-08-07, 10:31 AM	If I recall correctly, Bidderdoo bit Uthengental's neck, breaking the spine and killing him. Game mechanically, I would say that the bite was a critical hit that did more than 50 points of damage, and Uthengental failed the Fort save versus Massive Damage. But I agree, it was disappointing. That's how I read it too. :( (the man formerly known as ElGrecoETAC)
Grandmaster_Kane 04-08-07, 01:49 PM	That's how I read it too. :( (the man formerly known as ElGrecoETAC) i was kinda ****** cuz he was my favorite drow alive But he did kick the carp out of his far share of dwarfs before bitterdoo got his critical in
Philalexandros 04-08-07, 06:59 PM	True, true. I imagine that, if RAS' project of a Zaknafein/Jarlaxle prequel comes to fruition, we may very well see some extra Uthegental action. :)
Critalondel 04-09-07, 02:23 AM	The more Salvatore I read, the more I find myself liking his villains more than his heroes (or, at least, more than Drizzt). I liked Dinin through most of the first series, I rooted for Dantrag when he was around, I liked Berg'inyon after that, and (presently) I really find myself rooting for Gromph Baenre as I work my way through War of the Spider Queen (which isn't technically written by Salvatore, but from what I understand the storyline itself is his, and most of the characters began with him, right)? For some reason, Entreri and Jarlaxle just never really struck a chord with me, though -- so naturally it's those two that get turned into antiheroes and given their own books, while all my other favorite Drow end up dead (except Gromph, and PLEASE no one tell me if he's dead, too). :weep:
Zanan 04-09-07, 04:54 AM	Remember not to confuse novel descriptions with in-game stats. One famous scimitar wielder fought off a balor twice and a marilith once. What might have been interesting in AD&D, when it actually happened, is virtually a no-go in 3,5. Same again with this Uthegental vs the ravager fight. As for the weapon masters ... do note that this is a House title, at least much more than something defined in game terms. Essentially, it is either handed out by the matroon to some able warrior of her House, or a rank taken by the best / most powerful warrior of a House. No special rules have been set on this.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-09-07, 06:10 AM	The more Salvatore I read, the more I find myself liking his villains more than his heroes (or, at least, more than Drizzt). I liked Dinin through most of the first series, I rooted for Dantrag when he was around, I liked Berg'inyon after that, and (presently) I really find myself rooting for Gromph Baenre as I work my way through War of the Spider Queen (which isn't technically written by Salvatore, but from what I understand the storyline itself is his, and most of the characters began with him, right)? For some reason, Entreri and Jarlaxle just never really struck a chord with me, though -- so naturally it's those two that get turned into antiheroes and given their own books, while all my other favorite Drow end up dead (except Gromph, and PLEASE no one tell me if he's dead, too). :weep: Dude didnt you get the memo gromph died and became a lichdrow lol im jk dude
Lord Karsus 04-09-07, 10:25 AM	No special rules have been set on this. -Theoretically, the Weapons Master from Oriental Adventures (Complete Warrior too, I think) is a nice fit.
Zanan 04-09-07, 11:38 AM	-Theoretically, the Weapons Master from Oriental Adventures (Complete Warrior too, I think) is a nice fit. There are a lot of nice fits ;) Grandmaster Kane ... that bit on Gromph and becoming a lichdrow, which novel tells you that?
Another Gnome 04-09-07, 12:01 PM	Even among drow, there's no telling that the weapon master couldn't be a purely political role; a brilliant strategist would be a considerably more valuable asset to a house than a guy who just hits hard. ... Then again, said strategist would probably be smart enough to settle for a less visible role to begin with... :thinks:
Philalexandros 04-09-07, 12:45 PM	What we know of Drow society shows that individual weakness, regardless of talent and skill, is always exploited. The tactically brilliant general that is unable to defend himself in mortal combat lives solely on the whim of his mistresses. Conversely, it should be remembered that Zaknafein was not only an epic swordsman, but also responsible for what the Menzoberranzan Boxed Set calls "the unrivalled training" of the House Do' Urden drow soldiers who were described in that same product as a "crack, elite unit."
Another Gnome 04-09-07, 05:53 PM	Meh, drow are given way too much emphasis on their martial prowess. Maybe Lolthite societies favor dumb people because they're more easily controlled, but not only does that mean that even Lolthites need brains to manipulate things and keep them from falling apart, the "Drow smash!" approach is hardly something I would expect to be an accurate presentation of the race as whole.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-09-07, 06:22 PM	There are a lot of nice fits ;) Grandmaster Kane ... that bit on Gromph and becoming a lichdrow, which novel tells you that? read the spoiler dude lol
Philalexandros 04-09-07, 10:33 PM	Meh, drow are given way too much emphasis on their martial prowess. What gives you that impression? Rules-wise, Wizard is this favored class of male Drow--not Fighter. Females obviously favor the path of priesthood. Conventional military forces in no way receive undue attention within the city-states that have been described to us. Menzoberranzan's annals have shown that magical power--arcane or divine--is what ultimately allows for gains, and maintenance, of power. Had the focus been on fighters, and had they been such a force to be reckoned with, epic Weaponmasters like Zaknafein wouldn't have felt helplessly trapped in such an environment. In fact, to cite an example using that swordmaster, Zaknafein had to lobby for Drizzt to be trained as a fighter rather than as a wizard. Ched Nassad is on similar grounds as Menzoberranzan; Shammath (IIRC, that is the name of the wizard-centric city) is a magocracy. No Drow state has arisen Maybe Lolthite societies favor dumb people because they're more easily controlled, but not only does that mean that even Lolthites need brains to manipulate things and keep them from falling apart, the "Drow smash!" approach is hardly something I would expect to be an accurate presentation of the race as whole. On the contrary, it has been established that the better Weaponmasters are the more intelligent ones, and the better armies are the ones led and trained by them. By contrast, individuals such as the now-deceased Uthegental are the exception.
Critalondel 04-10-07, 03:27 AM	I don't think the drow themselves have any sort of undue focus on martial prowess -- I think it's just that the first three novels dealing with them (Salvatore's Dark Elf Trilogy, of course) were all about, well, Drizzt coming of age in Menzo, his training as a fighter at Melee Magthere, his relationship with his Weapons Master/Father, etc, etc. Of course in that series fighters looked like they were the most important class of people in the entire society. Of course Drizzt can kill mages left and right. He's the star, he gets the spotlight, and whatever he does is the most important stuff. But go read Cunningham's series (very focused on drow magic, while they're still in the Underdark), or the War of the Spider Queen stuff, and you'll see that the strength and power of the drow -- the REAL power, the stuff that shifts battles in their favor and keeps their enemies at bay and their society semi-stable in the long run -- is their magic, both arcane and (un)holy. Heck, half the reason drow fighters are as badass as they are is all the magical goodies they carry around, anyways.
Zanan 04-10-07, 04:09 AM	The problem with these favourite classes is that a) they have only been introduced with the ascendence of 3E, b ) they are only looking at the Lolthite society of the drow and c), IMHO are not that correct either. For they present the way it goes among the noble drow first and foremost and the large majority of drow males, AD&D and 3E, has always been fighters rather than wizards. Those (noble) males (and females) who showed enough talent to become able wizards were send to the academy (remember that much FR knowledge on drow is also based on the going-ons in Menzoberranzan), but one wonders whether training in the academy was/is an option for the common populace too. And if you go even deeper into somesuch, you'd wonder whether any sort of magical self-training is possible in a setting where spellbooks and components are not that cheap either. As for the more warlike notion of the drow. They (the omni-portayed Lolthites) are a militaristic society from top to bottom and the Houses are in nigh constant conflict. Thus, martial training as well as experience will be far more common amongst them than any other elven subrace on an ongoing basis.
The_Shaman 04-10-07, 04:36 AM	I actually wonder if the majority of drow are fighters, and not rogues. The fighters might be the champions of their house, the weapon instructors (imo one of the more important jobs of a house weapon master - and one at which iirc Zaknafein was quite good at), and the shock troops, but many - both warriors and not - prefer a stab in the back or to sneak out quietly to a good fight. The way drow are described in Salvatore's novels, either they had a racial stealth ability (which elves in general did in 2.x, iirc) or they have a few levels of rogue.
Another Gnome 04-10-07, 07:30 AM	Phil... may I call you Phil? See, what you said in that last post of yours is exactly my point; martial prowess in the front line (as exemplified by Zaknafein and Uthegental) alone can take a weapon master only so far, whereas a skilled military commander can win battles just as easily through sheer cunning. If a lieutenant kills his commanding officer on the battlefield, the simple fact that the commander died in battle proves his follower to be better suited for the part. It takes a lot more than skill with a blade, however, to replace someone who does his job without lifting a finger, and being able to defend yourself matters nothing if you make yourself valuable enough for others to defend you. In a militaristic organization built upon a strict hierarchy, it should be less likely, not more, that strength in arms determines one's status. Skilled politicians are the ones who rise to power, not those doing the dirty work for them.
Zanan 04-10-07, 11:33 AM	In some ways, drow society works somewhat like that of the Klingons. You do not need rogue or thief levels to be sneaky or cunning though. Just the INT bonus to know where to strike and when. Obviously, the novels of RAS describe the life amongst the nobility of the Houses, which make up less than 10% of all drow population of a city. The general populace as well as those below the nobles may also strife for position and power, but are usually not that driven and hungry as those nobles. That is my way of seeing it though ... and a pretty reasonable one. For had there been constant killings, there would be no drow on Toril for about 5,000 years or the like. Do remember Lolth's dogma too. Strife for power and cull the weak. Endanger the drow as a society or on the whole, and face my wrath. And remember that most drow souls end up with big mum and she ain't happy if you spoilt too much unnecessary drow blood in your life.
The_Shaman 04-10-07, 12:12 PM	In a militaristic organization built upon a strict hierarchy, it should be less likely, not more, that strength in arms determines one's status. Skilled politicians are the ones who rise to power, not those doing the dirty work for them. It is true, but the way I interpreted it, a weapon master is not the strategist of the house. He's rather the elite enforcer, the hitdrow if you would. From what I read, the weaponmasters were seldom the actual leaders of the army - this was iirc more often left to the priestesses. Also, while hierarchy in drow society is seemingly strict, it can be rather mutable. A leader who can not watch his back, front and sides and can't use something (magic, faith, or blade) to defend him/herself from sudden challenges simply won't live long. My personal idea why drow are, by and large, chaotic is that although there are many rules, there's one golden rule that practically everyone follows: don't get caught. @Zanan: Drow indeed go for cunning and trickery, but it struck me a few times in the early RA books (again, it might be that in 2.x all elves had stealth of a sort, and I think they did) drow patrols and raiders including students from Melee-Magthere (sp?) and drow in general were described as being stealthy par excellence and more quiet than any surface race (iirc that was from Drizzt's experience with the raid on the surface).
Zanan 04-10-07, 12:37 PM	IMHO, drow patroling the Underdark near the city should be given the odd level as scout (at least before the rogue class). In general, drow would get a bit more bite and some "mystery" back if you use e.g. the hexblade class alongside or instead of some fighter levels. Scout / hexblades in combination supported by swashbucklers could make up fine surface raider teams. Add to that a "priestess" who is actually an archivist (Heroes of Horror) hunting for surface deity spells and you get a nice usage of new classes.
Philalexandros 04-10-07, 07:38 PM	Phil... may I call you Phil? Philalexandros is merely an online "tag." If you wish something shorter, call me Phoebus. :) See, what you said in that last post of yours is exactly my point; martial prowess in the front line (as exemplified by Zaknafein and Uthegental) alone can take a weapon master only so far, whereas a skilled military commander can win battles just as easily through sheer cunning. In a more forgiving society, you would be correct. In the high-stakes world of the ruling Houses, where ambition is the number one cause of murder, one simply cannot afford to view these things (tactical acumen and personal combat skill) as mutually exclusive. In a similar fashion, how many Drow wizards do we know of who consider themselves merely sages and collectors of knowledge, and who do not invest in protection from both outright enemy and traitorous apprentice alike? What High Priestess of Lolth would be so arrogant as to assume the Goddess' favor alone is all the protection she'll ever need? If a lieutenant kills his commanding officer on the battlefield, the simple fact that the commander died in battle proves his follower to be better suited for the part. It takes a lot more than skill with a blade, however, to replace someone who does his job without lifting a finger, and being able to defend yourself matters nothing if you make yourself valuable enough for others to defend you. Again, this is all well and good, but decidely non-Drowish in outlook. In a militaristic organization built upon a strict hierarchy, it should be less likely, not more, that strength in arms determines one's status. Skilled politicians are the ones who rise to power, not those doing the dirty work for them. Therein lies your error. Menzoberranyr society is predominately theocratic. The hierarchy is strict, but also extremely volatile and always subject to change. Being an excellent swordsman,* a cunning politician, and a talented tactician are far from mutually exclusive in such an environment; on the contrary, they are almost necessities. * Or spellcaster; or rogue; etc. It is true, but the way I interpreted it, a weapon master is not the strategist of the house. He's rather the elite enforcer, the hitdrow if you would. From what I read, the weaponmasters were seldom the actual leaders of the army - this was iirc more often left to the priestesses. Not necessarily true. We know for a fact that Zaknafein, Dantrag, and Berg'inyon were in charge of training their troops to both weapon-skill and tactics. High Priestesses are important in that they are the decision makers, and the providers of the heavy firepower. Compared to the effects Malice brought to bear against DeVir, for example, or the effects that wizards can summon, infantry actions are almost a diversion and a side-show--a necessary effort to ensure no nobles survive the onslaught.
Another Gnome 04-11-07, 03:06 AM	*nods* Very well, I'll settle for the debate to end here on my part. :) ... Except for this: What High Priestess of Lolth would be so arrogant as to assume the Goddess' favor alone is all the protection she'll ever need? From what I hear, most of them. :P In all seriousness, if they weren't blindly trusting in the mere fact of being a priestess providing them with all the protection they need, a 6th-level fledgling priestess of a house (yes, you were talking about a high priestess but the point remains) would not so much as look at their 20th-level supersoldier the wrong way, let alone push him around.
Philalexandros 04-11-07, 10:30 AM	But the above DOES occur. Regardless how powerful and arrogant, the body of evidence we have to work with shows that priestesses do take precautions, and, whatever their feelings toward mere males, they do take notice when they deal with exceptional individuals. Briza Do'Urden is a High Priestess, brutal, domineering, and physically strong to match her spiritual power. Though totally committed to the concept of Lolthite theocracy and the inferiority of males, it is revealed to us in the opening pages of Homeland that she nonetheless fears Zaknafein. She fears him because his skill and ability make him dangerous. Malice is about the only being in Homeland that can keep Zak in line, and even she worries about his obstinancy, and plots to find some way to replace him. She doesn't dare do so, however, until she has a replacement lined up--Drizzt.
Zanan 04-11-07, 12:12 PM	Malice is about the only being in Homeland that can keep Zak in line, ... Don't assume too much. Any decent enough priestess or mage can use a spell or something alike and have their fun with a fighter-type of character, no matter what level or MR/SR. (Mind you, going by her stats Malice was not even able to cast Zin-Carla in AD&D ...)
Philalexandros 04-11-07, 12:37 PM	I'm not; I'm working with the data given to me. Malice, Briza, and Vierna are described as the most powerful of the high priestesses of Do'Urden. Two of the three openly fear Zaknafein, and one counts the days until she has a replacement for him and can thus have him slain. Could Zaknafein defend against a sustained assault of the Do'Urden priesthood? Of course not. His inability to do so is the metaphorical chain that keeps him in Menzoberranzan and working for Drow that he hates. The point I was making is that Briza knew that she, alone, could not best him (novel-wise or game-wise), and neither could any other High Priestess on her own (Malice might be an exception--I'll grant you that; note also that her level, 15, is given during the time when Do'Urden was 9th House, and that the Zin-Carla was cast at a later date). Zaknafein, of course, was the exception--not the rule. Hence, Dinin, ostensibly a skilled fighter (lvl 12), displaying nowhere near the audacity of the old Weaponmaster. Hence, Rizzen, himself no slouch (lvl 8), bowing and scraping his way through life.
The_Shaman 04-11-07, 04:37 PM	Not necessarily true. We know for a fact that Zaknafein, Dantrag, and Berg'inyon were in charge of training their troops to both weapon-skill and tactics. High Priestesses are important in that they are the decision makers, and the providers of the heavy firepower. Compared to the effects Malice brought to bear against DeVir, for example, or the effects that wizards can summon, infantry actions are almost a diversion and a side-show--a necessary effort to ensure no nobles survive the onslaught. Philalexandros, I had already mentioned that weaponmasters were instructors; that was in my previous post. I was responding to labeling them as strategists.
Philalexandros 04-11-07, 06:32 PM	I understood that, but I unfortunately was too vague. Apologies; allow me to elaborate. I think that, in a way, we're quibbling over terms and their meanings. Strategy is basically the science/art of the use (in peacetime and wartime), of all of a nation's (in this case a House's) forces and assets, through large-scale, long-range planning and development, to ensure security or victory. Tactics deals with the use and deployment of troops in actual combat. In this sense, I believe that, based on the body of evidence, we can reasonably conclude that the majority of the Matrons and their cadre of High Priestesses are in fact their House's strategists. My specific argument is that Weaponmasters and their subordinates can and do serve as tactical commanders in a battlefield environment. Examples: Dinin (and Nalfein, leading magic-using troops) led their respective units during the fight against DeVir. Zaknafein apparently has what is referred to as a tactical room, used only in times of war. Berg'inyon led the surface portion of the force against Mithral Hall, and Uthegental led the strike force below. War of the Spider Queen again depicts male Weaponmasters and officers (as well as females, but typically not priestesses) exercising tactical control over fighting forces.
Zanan 04-12-07, 06:15 AM	So I assume you were talking in-House priestesses rather than those of Menzo as a whole?! You have a point then. Obviously, rules where not that much a part in the novel storyline back then, so we do have to take all that with the pinch of salt that is always required.
Philalexandros 04-12-07, 08:50 AM	You are correct--I was speaking only of Zaknafein's existence within his House. It goes without saying that he had no illusions about tackling the hierarchy of the city. Regarding his House, though, the rules do fit in with what Salvatore described. Do'Urden was listed as having 4 High Priestesses and 12 Priestesses, though one cannot be sure if these included the Do'Urden Matron and her three daughters. Briza is a high priestess, but is a 13th level cleric at the end of the day. Vierna is an 11th level cleric, and Maya was a 9th level cleric. There is only so much they could do to Zaknafein. ;)
Zanan 04-12-07, 11:21 AM	Let's put it this way ... if the author wanted it, the character could do it. One would not have thought that he simply surrendered that easily in the end (when Drizzt was gone). There are instances in WotSQ, where SR and saves are simply of no importance and spells make it through without much problem where you would expect at least some problem for the caster. Chosing the right spell ... after decades and centuries of drow wars is nothing a drow priestess of 15th or 13th level is likely to fail.
Philalexandros 04-12-07, 05:42 PM	Zanan, I'm not sure I understand your logic. However one looks at it, Zaknafein was a dangerous enough Drow where no one priestess of Do'Urden would consider trying to push her luck with him. Game-wise, a 24th level fighter with Zaknafein's abilities has, and has always had, enough at his disposal to alternately resist much of what can be thrown at him by a 13th level cleric and deal immense amounts of damage right back. Novel-wise, as you yourself stated, the author is the ultimate arbiter of what what trumps what. Salvatore obviously believed Zaknafein to be a Drow of sufficient willpower and ability to strike fear in the priestesses of House Do'Urden. On a lighter note, you forget one of the stated reasons why Zaknafein was able to continue living despite his blasphemous ways; from Homeland: "... the pleasures that Zaknafein gave to Malice, sensual skills that had prompted Malice to spare Zak's life on more than a dozen occassions..." Apparently he was really good at giving foot massages. ;)
The_Shaman 04-12-07, 08:09 PM	Some foot massages indeed. Must...resist...Norris...joke... Salvatore mentions something that is imo a very good idea: a priestesses' power depends significantly on how much she is in favor with her goddess at the moment, or how much she approves of the task. Hence, any of the daughters could be a match for him if (maybe "only if") Lloth had bestowed particular power upon her. In the book where Vierna made a bid for ascention by trying to capture Drizzt, it was mentioned explicitly that it was a sign of special favor that she could use magic to affect Dinin.
Zanan 04-13-07, 03:19 AM	As I have said, MR / SR is not always a factor in novel-writing. At a certain level, all drow would have been nigh-immune to any sort of spells, enjoying a Magic Resistance of 99% et al. That said, there were ways to circumvent MR back then and as I said, drow fought primarily drow and if any race had developed techniques to bypass MR, it were the drow. 13th cleric ... well, essentially, it was a 13th level priestess, a.k.a. Arachne back then (DD), able to cast Domination with some special effects. The main thing here is though that priestesses would hardly have gone into melee or touching distance of Zak anyway. Summon a myrlochar or yochlol or two and let them have all the fun. But we are hypothising beyond the topic.
Philalexandros 04-13-07, 07:00 AM	Not to beat a dead horse, but there have been instances in those novels where we have seen resistance to magic--even such that does not involve magic resistance. Drizzt, Entreri, Zaknafein (I believe), and others have been shown using their indomitable will or other abilities to resist magic effects. Regardless, though, the point is moot. For Briza to fear Zaknafein--a feature of the novel, and not the gaming rules, she clearly felt that he was at least capable of resisting her magic enough for her life to be in danger. That is all I'm arguing here. :)
The_Shaman 04-13-07, 07:40 AM	Well, there is the matter of a saving throw, every now and then ;)