Post/Author/DateTime	Post
creyzi4zb12 07-05-07, 07:09 AM	Is it possible in the realms for mortals to become more powerful than gods? Like Raistlin in Dragonlance?
dragonheart 07-05-07, 07:51 AM	not really. while it is just barely possible for a mortal to become a deity it is generally as a low level demi-god not as a superpower as Raistlin achieved. Characters can adn do achieve epic levels - even significant epic levels (ie 35+) but if you check through faits and pantheons and use the basic rules for CR and ECL on the gods they are more like CR/ECL 50-90 than 30-50.
sleyvas 07-05-07, 10:57 AM	Individual PC's can become powerful on par with demi-gods, but those are rare indeed. A collection of these ultra powerful beings could possibly take on some of the lesser deities, but getting such a group together to accomplish such a task would be hard (even the Chosen wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket like this unless there were a really good reason).
Zevox 07-05-07, 12:49 PM	Not truly, no. At their utmost, a mortal might approach the power of a Quasi-Deity or weaker Demigod, but they could never truly become as powerful as them. The fact that Deities get abilities far beyond what mortals do aside, no Deity in the Realms can be slain without another Deity or another Deity's power being responsible, so they possess that extension of immortality which mortals can never attain nor overcome on their own without becoming a Deity themselves. Zevox
The Simbul 07-05-07, 01:37 PM	Note that deities being vastly more powerful than mortals is not some abnormal trait exclusive to the Forgotten Realms. The FR Deities follow the same standard set of rules for Deities intended for all D&D games, as originally spelled out in Deities and Demigods (updated to 3.5 in the Divine S.R.D.), and adapted to the Forgotten Realms Deities in Faiths and Pantheons. If Raistlin became more powerful than the Deities of his campaign setting, then it was either because A) All the Gods were quasideities or statistically non-optimized Demigods B) Raistlin was upwards of 90th level when he encountered them C) The authors choose not to bother explaining it under the rules, and simply declared that Raistlin was more powerful than/defeated Deity X. In any case, Raistlin being more powerful than the Gods of his world is an issue with the Dragonlance setting, and an issue not easily translated into a campaign that has Greater Deities and that uses the full range of rules for divine beings.
peteyrock 07-05-07, 02:32 PM	I figure that there are no mechanics explaining how Raistlin would become that powerful. The main reason: he is DragonLance's most popular character who has been around since the beginning. They've "killed" him almost as many times as the X-Men have "killed" Magneto. Yet, (like Magneto) he keeps returning due to consumer demand. "Let's see, can't make him more powerful, readers get mad if he dies (again), already travelled through time and space... Guess he'll just be a god."
ShadezofDis 07-05-07, 04:37 PM	Just as a side note, Raistlin wasn't more powerful than Takhisis in her realm, he had to draw her into Krynn in order to take her out. He would have gotten pounded had he fought her in the Abyss (exclusively). The whole structure of the way gods work on Krynn seems to be different from how they work in FR though (not in a general sense, but in the specifics). All of that said, there's no real statistical measure of this since the gods are only barely spelled out and typically don't have as heavy a hand as the Takhisis of Krynn had/has. Last but not least, Raistlin is awesome. I'm pretty sure he's among the first anti-heros in D&D literature and was well portrayed in everything I've read. It also fits very nicely that he isn't "dead" since Takhisis would want him to suffer like few other mortals (Huma probably comes close) for as long as she could possibly make him.
XHereticX 07-05-07, 08:19 PM	Raistlin at his height was a Lv 27 as I recall. Anyway, you can't really compare DL and FR like that. Raistlin won a mental battle with Takhisis in which he stole her power. He didn't actually have to confront the deity face to face. DL deities seem to project themself through aspects and their real forms seem to just be obscure forms of divine power. Maybe the actualy gods don't even have stats (well, there are no official stats given for them, so we can't assume anything) Mortal vs god confrontations are always tricky. If you went by the stats of both in a fair fight I doubt any mortal can survive a couple of annihilating strikes or divine blasts. So they always give the mortals a little loophole that logically allows them to win. Battle are chancy things, as is comparing stats and fluff.
Renvale999 07-06-07, 10:04 AM	Note that deities being vastly more powerful than mortals is not some abnormal trait exclusive to the Forgotten Realms. The FR Deities follow the same standard set of rules for Deities intended for all D&D games, as originally spelled out in Deities and Demigods (updated to 3.5 in the Divine S.R.D.), and adapted to the Forgotten Realms Deities in Faiths and Pantheons. If Raistlin became more powerful than the Deities of his campaign setting, then it was either because A) All the Gods were quasideities or statistically non-optimized Demigods B) Raistlin was upwards of 90th level when he encountered them C) The authors choose not to bother explaining it under the rules, and simply declared that Raistlin was more powerful than/defeated Deity X. In any case, Raistlin being more powerful than the Gods of his world is an issue with the Dragonlance setting, and an issue not easily translated into a campaign that has Greater Deities and that uses the full range of rules for divine beings. Raistlin was just rutheless and cunning, more so than the gods themselves...you're right though Simbul, Raistlin doesn't easily translate over to FR, but if he somehow made over here, I think he would make Karsus look like a pantywaste (And I think the Gods would do everything they could to get rid of him as quickly as possible). Just my personal opinion.
ShadezofDis 07-06-07, 10:11 AM	Further, it could very well have been that Raistlin had divine backing (from some of the other evil DL gods who were sick of having Takhisis lord over them and thought a mortal would be easier to deal with). Heck, Raistlin really had the planes at his disposal (who do you think would have shown Dalamar how to travel the planes?) so he could have recruited other agents to help him in his battle. Now, we don't see evidence of either in the story (so far as I remember, this is going back . . . too many years ;)) but that doesn't mean much. :)
Micheal_Roele 07-06-07, 10:57 AM	It wasn't a simple matter of Raistlin just going to Takhisis' realm and taking her on. It required a unique ritual and certain events to fall his way. Its not an everyday thing. It was not totally disimilar to what Karsus had to do. After all, Karsus did need to kill the Tarrasque and an ancient Gold Dragon as components if I recall from my 2nd ed Netheril Boxed Set to power his spell, which he had to research and create. The fact you had a lax diety of Magic did make it possible, but still, its not an easy task, even for an Archwizard, especially getting the components part. Like Karsus, there were a number of Epic Level Type Quests and Spells Raistlin had to undertake and cast. He had to travel in time, meet and kill Fistandtilus, master and use the Bloodstone Amulet, then become him. Next he had to find a way to break the time stream to open the portal and ensure sucess, where Fistandatilus had failed. Finally he had to have a Cleric of Paladine aid him in the ritual in opening the portal, so that took work as well. Takhisis could have stopped him at any point if any one of those things went wrong. Once he crossed the other side, he faced Takhisis' trials, but his cleric of Paladine took all the damage. Finally the confrontation in the Abyss was against Takhisis' servants, he faced and beat them all. When Raistlin crossed back through the portal, I recall that is at the point he crossed the threshold of mortal to god, and being Takhisis was weakened in the material world, it was possible for him to defeat her. Hence, why it was important for him to never leave the Abyss. So in reality he wasn't really a mortal when he battled Takhisis. It was a combination of epic quests and spells to achieve what he did, much like Karsus had to do. Both were one time things, and likely wouldn't occur in either setting again.
Micheal_Roele 07-06-07, 11:05 AM	Further, it could very well have been that Raistlin had divine backing (from some of the other evil DL gods who were sick of having Takhisis lord over them and thought a mortal would be easier to deal with). Heck, Raistlin really had the planes at his disposal (who do you think would have shown Dalamar how to travel the planes?) so he could have recruited other agents to help him in his battle. Now, we don't see evidence of either in the story (so far as I remember, this is going back . . . too many years ;)) but that doesn't mean much. :) Well he did sort of get Paladine's aid a couple times in the form of healing, and the fact the Platinum Dragon didn't interfere with Rasitlin using his Cleric. Paladine sort of hoped for the best, that Raistlin would stop his own ambition, and in the end that did happen. I don't think the other gods were thrilled though, because the god Raistlin in the Alternate Future destroyed everyone and all the gods in the end.
ShadezofDis 07-06-07, 11:10 AM	Well he did sort of get Paladine's aid a couple times in the form of healing, and the fact the Platinum Dragon didn't interfere with Rasitlin using his Cleric. Paladine sort of hoped for the best, that Raistlin would stop his own ambition, and in the end that did happen. I don't think the other gods were thrilled though, because the god Raistlin in the Alternate Future destroyed everyone and all the gods in the end. On the first point, yep, I agree. On the second part, I don't think most of the gods truly understood the threat that was Raistlin. I say this because none of them stepped up and did anything about him (in print, though that could just be something that was "left out" but I prefer to think that they may have been looking to get rid of Takhisis since she's messed up so many times :))
Micheal_Roele 07-06-07, 11:43 AM	On the first point, yep, I agree. On the second part, I don't think most of the gods truly understood the threat that was Raistlin. I say this because none of them stepped up and did anything about him (in print, though that could just be something that was "left out" but I prefer to think that they may have been looking to get rid of Takhisis since she's messed up so many times :)) Not likely too many other gods saw the threat besides Paladine and Gilean. They knew what was coming. Likely they kept the other good and neutral gods out of it, since they were handling the matter. They weren't out to kill Takhisis, in fact the wanted to keep the balance. For them, it was to save the world and Raistlin from a horrible fate. I even get the sense throughout, Takhisis didn't take it seriously until Raistlin actually confronted her legions in the Abyss. The other Evil Gods wouldn't have helped her one bit, I agree. They hated her that much, especially her children, and also due to her failure during the War of the Lance. Then again, Mystryl didn't seem to be concerned about Karsus until it was too late, so it isn't suprising a god would overlook a mortal. I guess there is a certain sense the improbable won't happen when you are a god.
Steelwind 07-06-07, 11:45 AM	Raistlin and Elaith, my two favorite anti-heroes, anyway I personally believe that Raist should have taken over as head of the evil pantheon after Takhisis's fall as the balance to Paladine's status therefor preventing the need for him to become mortal.
creyzi4zb12 07-06-07, 11:52 AM	Whattabout Cyric? Midnight? Didn't they kill gods when they were but mere mortals?
ShadezofDis 07-06-07, 12:27 PM	Whattabout Cyric? Midnight? Didn't they kill gods when they were but mere mortals? Cyric killed a god using Godsbane, which was actually Mask's avatar during the ToT. So Cyric really didn't do much but stab, if he wasn't using Mask's avatar I'm sure it wouldn't have phased Bhaal in the least. :) As for Midnight, she contained a large portion of Mystra's essence so that doesn't really count as a mortal slaying a god. Further, this was all during the ToT, when the gods were severely underpowered.
ShadezofDis 07-06-07, 12:33 PM	Not likely too many other gods saw the threat besides Paladine and Gilean. They knew what was coming. Likely they kept the other good and neutral gods out of it, since they were handling the matter. They weren't out to kill Takhisis, in fact the wanted to keep the balance. For them, it was to save the world and Raistlin from a horrible fate. I don't really buy them forgetting about Raistlin after the War of the Lance, however I can see Paladine or Gilean or Nuitari interfering with their abilities to perceive what Raistlin was up to, not to mention that Raistlin was probably trying to keep everything on the down low too. I even get the sense throughout, Takhisis didn't take it seriously until Raistlin actually confronted her legions in the Abyss. The other Evil Gods wouldn't have helped her one bit, I agree. They hated her that much, especially her children, and also due to her failure during the War of the Lance. I can buy that from Takhisis, she's ever been the typical "I'm so powerful that nothing can stop me." But after Huma and the War of the Lance I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that she'd be caught completely unaware, unless there were some mitigating factors (other gods, Raistlin using certain techniques in order to stay under the radar, etc) Then again, Mystryl didn't seem to be concerned about Karsus until it was too late, so it isn't suprising a god would overlook a mortal. I guess there is a certain sense the improbable won't happen when you are a god. I like to think that Shar had something to do with that. Also, Mystryl was pretty busy with the Weave at that time, if I remember correctly, it's been a while since I read up on those particular events. :)
Micheal_Roele 07-06-07, 01:48 PM	I do think alot of it is the gods chalking it up to "There is no way that could ever happen. They are just mortals." Ego is a powerful thing until some mage comes up with some ritual and half-baked scheme to take your godhood away...: Can you imagine though how different Toril would have turned out if Karsus had picked a different deity than Mystryl as the receipient of Karsus' Avatar? The spell could have worked on any deity. It makes you wonder if Mystryl would have interceded to save Shar if she was the target? Probably not, nor would she care to save her. Selune would be doing a happy dance all over Shar's astral corpse. Then again, they would now have to deal with Karsus in Shar's place. Ughhh. Even more disturbing would be if Karsus chose Moander. Talk about taking a turn to the disgusting...eww.
XHereticX 07-06-07, 07:33 PM	Well, the whole divine backing thing was probably why Raistlin brought Crysania if you think about it.
ShadezofDis 07-07-07, 01:33 AM	Well, the whole divine backing thing was probably why Raistlin brought Crysania if you think about it. I read that more as a Raistlin seducing Crysania type jam than a Paladine told her too sorta jam. I'm sure that Paladine could have stopped it if he'd wanted but that's the sort of action that seems inherently against what Paladine tries to do. I do think alot of it is the gods chalking it up to "There is no way that could ever happen. They are just mortals." Ego is a powerful thing until some mage comes up with some ritual and half-baked scheme to take your godhood away...: I agree with what you are saying in general. However, I really would rather have respectable gods than overpowered kids. ;) I can run with the "primordial forces" type thoughts, in that a deity is inherently going to take certain actions due to the very nature of that deity (like Takhisis chasing Raistlin out of the Abyss and into the mortal plane) but I have a VERY hard time swallowing that a deity will just be caught with their pants down. That's why I prefer the thought of other deities/entities working to help mask the mortal's plot or to help create a fog in the target deities perception, and in a lot of cases I would feel best if the mortal in question were to try and gain those allies in order to help mask their overall goal. Can you imagine though how different Toril would have turned out if Karsus had picked a different deity than Mystryl as the receipient of Karsus' Avatar? Only a little bit, I mean, I know it's a rhetorical question but I have thought about it. ;) The spell could have worked on any deity. We presume. It makes you wonder if Mystryl would have interceded to save Shar if she was the target? Probably not, nor would she care to save her. Selune would be doing a happy dance all over Shar's astral corpse. Then again, they would now have to deal with Karsus in Shar's place. Karsus would be far preferable. Shar is a nihilist at heart and that's terribly dangerous. The only thing I don't really know is how fatalistic Shar is, as in if she wants to "live" to see the world/universe turn back into nothingness or if she's perfectly willing to sacrifice herself in order to see that goal through. Further, I wouldn't be completely sure that Shar would be able to be taken by that spell . . . though now that I'm thinking about it Shar isn't all that much older than Mystryl. . . I'd have to do more research to really have an opinion but I'd like to think that Shar would have more tricks up her sleeve than Mystryl. That might just be me though. :)
PharaunMizzrym 07-07-07, 03:54 AM	Mortals can kill deities in FR. Thats how Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul started their journey to intermediate and greater divinity. They killed an older god to become quasi or demi deities then approached the throne of Jergal.
pokie 07-07-07, 03:57 AM	Interestingly enough, Raistlin is Neutral Good in DnD mini-s. Also, I think Elric of Melnibone is a far better antihero. Interesting discussion, btw - keep it up!
PharaunMizzrym 07-07-07, 04:04 AM	Of course Raistlin is neutral good. When you wield that level of power no one is going to argue with you about what you claim your alignment is. Say for instance if AO told everyone in the realms that he was a pink panda bear would anyone try to argue with him?
pokie 07-07-07, 04:10 AM	I am sure someone would cast detect pandas
XHereticX 07-07-07, 09:17 AM	Interestingly enough, Raistlin is Neutral Good in DnD mini-s. Also, I think Elric of Melnibone is a far better antihero. Interesting discussion, btw - keep it up! Red-Robe Raistlin was N. Black-Robe Raistlin was NE. I have no idea what they did, maybe it was after he cam back from the dead, he seemed kind of NG at that time.
Zevox 07-07-07, 12:09 PM	Mortals can kill deities in FR. Thats how Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul started their journey to intermediate and greater divinity. They killed an older god to become quasi or demi deities then approached the throne of Jergal. They had help from another Deity doing that. I can't remember who - it was some fairly obscure one who isn't around anymore, I think (one from their home world maybe?) - but I know I heard about them receiving divine aid to complete that task. Zevox
captaincarot 07-07-07, 12:35 PM	They had help from another Deity doing that. I can't remember who - it was some fairly obscure one who isn't around anymore, I think (one from their home world maybe?) - but I know I heard about them receiving divine aid to complete that task. Zevox jergal gave bane the dagger to do it with, the only dagger that could do it.
Bonzai 07-07-07, 05:14 PM	Keep in mind too that in the Dragon Lance setting, there was a level cap on how high a Character could go. I believe it was 18, unless you were a white robed wizard, who could advance all the way to lvl 20. By subsuming Fistandtilus, he was able to skirt this rule, and achieve power well beyond any Krynish wizard in history. Simply put, the Gods of Krynn had never faced a mortal that powerful before, and were frankly caught with their pants down. Huma, was probably about lvl 16-18 and with his dragon mount, (I assume a mature adult gold dragon), would have been a CR of about 37. They took down an avatar of Tahkesis.
Khellrendros 07-07-07, 08:16 PM	For minis Raistlin is LG/CG meaning he is NG and he now has an epic card for his bada@@ed evil self but is CE... while I think he should have been LE/CE and so NE all said. :pbbbtt:
Ioulaum 07-08-07, 02:11 PM	You guys forget that Taki wanted Rasti to beat her legions and travel back across the portal. Rastlin traveling back across the portal would open the portal to the Abyss allow Taki to finally come to Kyrnn in person. This would allow her finally win in her fight against her brothers. She gamble that could beat Rastlin in his home plane and she lost. But it was a gamble she was prepare to take because it finally allow her to leave the Abyss and she probably didn't think she would lose.
Soulsong 07-08-07, 06:29 PM	You guys forget that Taki wanted Rasti to beat her legions and travel back across the portal. Rastlin traveling back across the portal would open the portal to the Abyss allow Taki to finally come to Kyrnn in person. This would allow her finally win in her fight against her brothers. She gamble that could beat Rastlin in his home plane and she lost. But it was a gamble she was prepare to take because it finally allow her to leave the Abyss and she probably didn't think she would lose.True, it was a gamble, but she had already lost before Raistlin exited the portal. As a God on her own plane, she should have been able to very easily break his mind and/or soul and still use him to exit the portal and give her access to the Prime. She did not do this when she chould have been able to and would have wanted to. Therfore, she couldn't do it. The only possibility remaining (when understanding the full story and the specific limitations of the Dragonlance cosmology) is that Raistlin was actually capable of doing this by himself. Even Crysania becomes a coincedental convenience, and not a requirement (beyond her help in getting past the Portal restrictions, also a mere convenience to the most powerful Wizard ever). It is true that current official design does not have (and claims to prevent) a mechanical/rules explanation for Gods, and the overcoming of them by mortals, but there are several likely interactions that can be applied to this situation. On Krynn, Magic is currently divided (in an absurd way, IMO) into several different types (the types are actually interesting and potentially useful both in flavor and in the mechanics of the cosmology as a whole, but most of this utility is actually lost/sacrificed for unneeded and inconsistancy inducing magic type mutual exclusivity. Raistlin seems to have broken through several cosmological limitations (transcending limitations of Magic, Time, and Mortality) in order to defeat Takhisis in the Abyss and subsequently being able to capitolize on whatever happened on the Prime (undescribed in any source) and then able to defeat all of the other Gods (in the manner described in the last Legends Novel and the Legends Sourcebook. It is obviously possible to describe these breakthroughs in terms of simple (but usually lame) "Plot Devices", but it is also possible to create rules that would allow and would describe what happened without allowing every mortal from defeating every God. These rules likely depend on the specific cosmology and campaign setting and are not necessarily rules that should be used generally.
Alleran 07-09-07, 12:29 AM	(I assume a mature adult gold dragon) Huma's mount was a female Silver Dragon, IIRC - I'd assume she was a young adult or adult, given her attitude in the books.
BrennonGoldeye 07-09-07, 07:09 AM	It was a silver dragon. ;)
boards 07-09-07, 07:35 AM	It was a silver dragon. ;) Who breathed fire:bigeyes:. Dragons must be different in DL:confused:
Bonzai 07-09-07, 11:49 AM	It was a silver dragon. ;) Sorry, it's been about 15 years since I read that book. Ok, amend the CR to 33 then.
Ioulaum 07-09-07, 03:53 PM	Who breathed fire:bigeyes:. Dragons must be different in DL:confused: And Cones of Frost Cast Magic, change shape. Been a while seen i read the book but She was also a Cleric of Mishkal.
XHereticX 07-09-07, 08:14 PM	Sorry, it's been about 15 years since I read that book. Ok, amend the CR to 33 then. Heart definatly wasen't CR 33. For gods sake, with those stats she would be more powerful than some of the dragon overlords. DL dragons aren't different than regular D&D dragons, except for the fact that Krynn chromatic dragons are actually corrupted metallics (red-iron, blue-copper, green-zinc, black-lead, white-tin)
Zsych 07-13-07, 03:02 AM	Mortals more powerful than gods... Depends on how you define power. Conceivably, mages could take the Imaskari route. Study the nature of divinity, and then create spells that take advantage of that specifically. Like researching and finding poisons for a human. The other guy doesn't have to be stronger to poison you. .. And the Imaskari apparently even created pseudo-gods to serve them. .. so with research, should circumstances(and DM) permit, epic mages should be able to become serious problems for gods. -- Alternatively, epic spells to effect worshippers of a god could be used to effect a god. Ghaunadar, reduced his power, by foolishly turning his worshippers into non-sentients. A change in thought or faith of some worshippers(perhaps temporarily), by an epic mage, or circle of epic mages, should certainly be possible. --- In the realms of pure power. I don't think you're likely to evolve to a level far beyond gods by sticking on Toril.
Red_Wizard 07-13-07, 11:37 AM	Mortals can kill deities in FR. Thats how Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul started their journey to intermediate and greater divinity. They killed an older god to become quasi or demi deities then approached the throne of Jergal. They didn't actually kill any gods though. They were super powerful mortals, who decided they were going to attack, and take the power of divinity from Jergal. But, Jergal was apparently unhappy with his position (From my understanding due to the release of Kezof into the multiverse), and simply GAVE them his powers on an individual basis.
Mirtek 07-13-07, 02:19 PM	Raistlin doesn't easily translate over to FR, but if he somehow made over here, I think he would make Karsus look like a pantywaste . Actually we do have AD&D stats of both of them and Raistlin is not even anywhere near Karsus' power. The whole DL Setting is a low-power setting compared to the FR. The spell could have worked on any deity. It makes you wonder if Mystryl would have interceded to save Shar if she was the target? Probably not, nor would she care to save her. Selune would be doing a happy dance all over Shar's astral corpse. Then again, they would now have to deal with Karsus in Shar's place. The spell was non permanent. It only allowed the caster to merge with the deity for a short time and dying afterwards, leaving the deity none the worse for the wear Mortals can kill deities in FR. Thats how Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul started their journey to intermediate and greater divinity. They killed an older god to become quasi or demi deities then approached the throne of Jergal. No, they can't. Not without divine aid. It has been stated in both F&A and P&P. Wen Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul slew Borem, they either already had Jergal's blessing without knowing it, or (more likely) Borem isn't dead at all. He seems much less dead than other dead deities (and death always has been meaning less for deities than for mortals anyway). Just remove the dagger and Borem will be reborn, that's much less effort than is usually required to revibe a dead deity, so it seems that Borem is not as much dead as he is merely knocked out. jergal gave bane the dagger to do it with, the only dagger that could do it. I don't even think the dagger could do it. It was merely created by mortals after all. While they managed to make a nice toy that can ignore some divine AC bonus, I don't think the dagger is enough to slay a deity without divine aid (and that's why Borem is more sleeping than being dead)
customdrapery 07-13-07, 03:38 PM	The Jathiman Dagger simply allows someone to ignore the divine bonus to armor class, but even given that, most gods still have AC's in the 60's. So I doubt that was the only help that they had in taking on Borem. Jergal must have been assisting them in some other way as well. And I've always wondered how this Cult managed to make such a powerful artifact. Making artifacts always seems like an incredibly difficult feat. An entire Nether Scroll supposedly describes the method. Why was it relatively easy for this Cult? I mean, other than the killing themselves bit. I've often wondered if Borem would return as a deity or simply as a mortal if the Dagger was removed from his indestructible heart. If Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul took his divine spark (as is implied in F&P) then maybe Borem would return, but not as a deity. And why do they have to watch over the Heart forever? If he returned would he take his divine spark back? Or battle Bane for it? I think someone should take out the Dagger, just to find out.
Zsych 07-13-07, 06:51 PM	The Nether scrolls are like physics books. They detail many things. Research might leave you able to develop an artifact in a specific area... there are apparently also some magical accidents involved in the creation of artifacts. ... Plus with lower level stuff, you can consider artifacts to be the product of ordinary magical processes, that simply aren't known by mainstream wizards.
421 07-13-07, 08:25 PM	Azuth is the one.
BrennonGoldeye 07-13-07, 09:14 PM	The Nether scrolls are like physics books. They detail many things. Research might leave you able to develop an artifact in a specific area... there are apparently also some magical accidents involved in the creation of artifacts. ... Plus with lower level stuff, you can consider artifacts to be the product of ordinary magical processes, that simply aren't known by mainstream wizards. :pbbbtt::pbbbtt::pbbbtt: It was an entire chapter of the "Nether Scrolls". Then there is an additional problem. You could have all 10 laying in your lap, I guess finding them would be just a matter of "research", but nothing would happen. 10 Artifacts. In your lap. Nothing happening. Well, something happening, it just involves nasty critters heading toward you via several different planes. Mainstream kinda stuff no doubt. ;)
Zsych 07-13-07, 10:58 PM	The Imaskari have made artifacts, the elves have made artifacts, latter day elves have made artifacts(like that thing that lets an elven high mage work alone instead of a circle, in one of Elaine Cunningham's books) And I'm fairly sure I recall a few other latter day wizards too. PCs may have no existing rules for developing such, but high level NPCs do manage. ... and of course, practically anything decent you find from Netheril is an artifact for modern wizards, just not an artifact of the class that you could make from the relevant Nether scrolls(like the Scepter of the Sorceror Kings and such) You could say that the Nether Scrolls let you develop artifacts that were artifacts of great power from the perspective of the Netherese. Not just regular artifacts.
Nisstyrethegreat 07-14-07, 06:02 PM	what about that one drowess that killed selventarm in the first lady penitent. used crescent blade.
Mirtek 07-16-07, 01:19 PM	what about that one drowess that killed selventarm in the first lady penitent. used crescent blade. It was most likely Lolth that slew him, maybe Ellistrae
captaincarot 07-16-07, 01:32 PM	You could say that the Nether Scrolls let you develop artifacts that were artifacts of great power from the perspective of the Netherese. Not just regular artifacts. the gods also tend to turn up the odd one, godsbane for example. i've also got a home made one that is a hat which has currently got the soul of a gnome sorceror trapped in it. which was brought about just after time of troubles in waterdeep through tymora feeling sorry for him when he was killed by mask. it's affectively an npc sorceror which is worn on the head of the parties thief and frequently drives him mad. but every DM needs to have their little bit of fun and i get to throw spells round at inopportune moments if i feel like it. that and the fact that having one of the party members have to have a telepathic argument with their own hat to try and get it to turn him invisible or let loose a volley of spells i find ammuses me in the quieter moments.
Bonzai 07-16-07, 02:42 PM	Heart definatly wasen't CR 33. For gods sake, with those stats she would be more powerful than some of the dragon overlords. DL dragons aren't different than regular D&D dragons, except for the fact that Krynn chromatic dragons are actually corrupted metallics (red-iron, blue-copper, green-zinc, black-lead, white-tin) Um, that was combining the CR's of a lvl 18 knight and an adult Silver. However, I seem to recall some where that Huma was lvl 16... It's been waay to long since I was into Dragon Lance. Still, the point is, that on Kryn it apears that some thing with an ECR of the low to mid 30's seem to have a shot at taking down a diety, or at least their avatar. While in the realms, a diety would laugh at a lvl 35 character attempting to challenge them.