Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sedrynvagor 09-29-07, 08:14 PM	I often wondered while reading through the Realms Novels who would be the strongest of each core class. I know that most Heros in the Realms are Muti classers, but if we take it down to there Favoured Class for Example Eliminster fav class would be wizard, so we could consider him to be one of the strongest in that class. Would like to hear what you guys think.
GothicDan 09-29-07, 08:18 PM	It depends on what you consider "strength," and when you note that each printed NPC's level is never set in stone.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-29-07, 08:41 PM	Indeed, there is more than one type of power.
dragonheart 09-30-07, 10:58 AM	When trying to decide "most powerful" folks like the chosen should really be left out. the abilities from their templates (spell resistances, SLA, stat bonuses, etc) make them considerably more powerful than "straight" members of their class. While this is recognized in their CR ratings it makes comparisoons unweildy. WHat is the best way for say Elminster to deal with a powerful mage? really its not spell battle - simply cast lots of counterspells till the other mage is out of spells then either fire off a couple of bolts of silver fire or simply pull his sword and wage in and turn the mage to mincemeat since he has so many more HP available. Effectively El has as many spells as any other 20+ level mage and he has 45 lvels of spell imunities, 45 levels of SLAs and then the silver fire along with 5 points of constitution bonus for each level (about 175 extra HP- yesh he has more hitpoints from the bonuses than 2 35th level mages HAVE on average). The only template that I can see allowing into the mage discussion would be the Lich template since easily half of the epic level mages have it so it probably cancels out. these templates (especially the various versions of "chosen") is really what makes these folks so effective for their goods and why the gods make use of chosen.
Eli_the_Tanner 09-30-07, 11:01 AM	Example Eliminster fav class would be wizard, so we could consider him to be one of the strongest in that class. Would like to hear what you guys think. But Elminster only has 12 strength.....that's not very strong really;) Perhaps a bit more clarification would be needed, on what would you mean by Strength. Physical? Mental? Magical? Political? Military? among many more?
Dark Wizard 09-30-07, 03:03 PM	But Elminster only has 12 strength.....that's not very strong really;) Who needs innate strength when you can have strength augmented through magic. Besides, 12 strength is plenty for a mage. I usually only manage 10 for my wizard characters at best, and that's just because I don't like collapsing from carrying my own backpack.
GothicDan 09-30-07, 03:20 PM	Tenser's Floating Disk!
Sedrynvagor 09-30-07, 06:27 PM	lol Valid points indeed. Tryng to keep it as simple as possible. So for example I would say for these three classes my idea of the strongest would be Ranger: Dornal Silverhand Barbarian: Wulfgar Druid: Robyn Kendrick I know these are lame examples, but its just out of intrest. Also another random question who would you put up there for the Greatest Swordsman of the Realms. Drizzit would be up there for duel wielders but who else is there for the Great sword or bastard sword style of fighting?
dragonheart 09-30-07, 09:04 PM	the swordsman question was answered oer a year ago by Ed Greenwood with additional lore - he names several npcs none of whom are major realms personalities. in comparison Drizzit would be well below their capabilities. In general the "who is the greatest _____" is as unanswerable in the realms as such questions are about sports stars today. rare is the michael Jordan that everyone grants as the "best".
creyzi4zb12 09-30-07, 09:17 PM	Wouldn't a barbarian be better for an orc instead of dwarf? Orcs get +4 to strenght...it benefits really well from the rage. But their low int drives their survival check out Dwarves get big penalties to run and jump checks. But have big constitution ( I don't think it helps that much tho').
Eli_the_Tanner 10-01-07, 12:57 PM	As Dragonheart pointed out above, Ed has explained the difficulties of rating the 'Greatest' ,'Strongest' or 'Bestest' character(whatever their profession) before. However in the article he gives a very valiant attempt at compiling a best Swordsman list. And here it is:Heeeere's Ed: Well, now. "Swordsmen" you say, so I'm going to narrow my reply down to: male living (not dead or undead) humans. I'm going to further qualify my reply by saying that among the most skilled masters of bladework, "best" becomes a matter of opinion regarding style, and the average observer can't identify (let alone properly interpret) most subtle differences because they're either dead too quickly, or too dazzled by things that happen too swiftly for them to see properly and too deftly for them to measure or grasp the implications of (matters of shifting a foe just a little off balance, or forcing a movement in stance or location, that will lead to a killing stroke three or four maneuvers later). Moreover, "best" is a steadily shifting title, even when one sets aside divine and magical meddling, because (as with real-world tennis) youthful speed and acrobatic suppleness, plus freedom from injuries and the slowing and crippling effects of aging (on, say, the human knee), must always be balanced against the experience gained in duel after duel after battle: young swordsmen are always rising to the fore, but only step into the ranks of the "best" when those more expert through real-life practice grow too slow to defeat the most skilled younglings (or the younglings overcome their inexperience). I'm also going to restrict myself purely to matters of bladework, in a one-on-one fight in surroundings that favor neither combatant. In other words, I'm minimizing "street smarts" or dirty fighting or the adventurers' experience in exploiting traction, lighting, obstacles, distractions, and all of that: factors that seasoned adventurers (like Durnan of Waterdeep) can use to defeat foes who might be a shade faster or a whit better in pure bladework. This will work against Artemis Entreri, for example, but also against a host of other adventurers whom I won't even mention in this reply, but who might otherwise show up in my answer. (Personally, I'd rather not do any "best of" rankings, because I think they're subjective, snapshots of moments in time that are dated even as they're made, and a bit pointless. Even in pure-skill tournaments, upsets occur, and if a DM wants to create an unknown who's better than the individuals mentioned here, go right ahead.) However, I probably possess the best overview of the entire tapestry of the Realms of anyone (though not all that far ahead of, say, Messrs. Boyd and Krashos, closely followed by Schend, Hunter, and Grubb), and can speak from that strength - - not being limited, for instance, by published Realmslore. So you're really going to have to trust me here, when I say that the best bladesman in the Realms right now (1375 DR) is: Harmel Artru, a darkly handsome, agile, glib-tongued and lady-charming merchant seacaptain (and sometime pirate), who sails The Winsome Lady independent caravel out of Saerloon (and a secret base somewhere in the Pirate Isles). Only a whisker-width behind Artru is Loaros Hammarandar, a broad-shouldered, grim giant of a man who can hurl his prodigious strength and bulk around like an acrobat, and is an ever-wary-of-treachery mercenary warmaster currently under hire by Narubel, who commands "the Swift Sword" cavalry force used to quell bandits and unrest in that city and its surrounding farms (and dedicates himself to quietly eliminating all threats to the current rulership, prosperity, and status quo in Narubel). Close behind Artru and Hammarandar are Skoalam Marlgrask and then Sraece Telthorn. Skoalam Marlgrask is a professional duelist who travels Chessenta as the champion of whomever sponsors him in duels, making huge sums (because everyone locally knows he's "the best" in duels, and so tries to outbid opponents seeking to hire his services) that are usually paid in gems and used by Marlgrask to immediately buy property, notably an ever-expanding string of inns and taverns. Marlgrask is polite, saturnine, nondescript of looks but quietly luxurious of dress, and seems able to sense danger (crossbow snipers, for instance) before it can reach out for him. He's known to be resistant to many natural poisons (having learned this the hard way), but now takes great care regarding what he eats and drinks (hence his purchase of many inns and taverns). Sraece Telthorn is a smallish, agile, almost feminine man who can dance, tumble, balance, and spring with a skill and precision matched only by the greatest acrobats (once leaping off a parapet to land perfectly balanced on a sloping, protruding flagstaff far below, for instance, and often springing over the slashing swords of opponents). He teaches "swordplay" (fencing) in Yhaunn and Waterdeep, and is believed to travel between the two by means of secret portals of unknown origin and location. Telthorn lives simply, is unambitious (avoiding power and important patrons, and giving much of his coins away), and is beloved by many pleasure-lasses of Waterdeep, who regard him as a kind friend or honorary brother as well as a frequent client. I'd put the infamous Artemis Entreri after Telthorn, though I could be persuaded to rank two other male human bladesmen between them: Ulmaer Rivrymm of Sheirtalar (a smiling, wax-mustached man of good nature but lightning-swift reflexes and keen sight, who is personal bodyguard to the Overking of Lapaliiya, and can juggle scimitars to entertain), and Aka 'the Questmaster' (the mysterious sponsor and trainer of adventurers) who dwells, these days, in the wilderlands of the Sword Coast North. If I widen my reply to include human females, two must be inserted: Ember Tsartaera between Hammarandar and Marlgrask, and Lyaunthra Aldegal between Marlgrask and Telthorn. Ember Tsartaera is the tall, cool of manner and sparing of words Knight of Arms (weaponsmaster, or trainer of bodyguards and soldiers) to Lord Albin, ruler of Furthinghome in Aglarond, where she dwells. Ember dresses plainly, lives in spartan surroundings, and is always under iron self-control, keeping to herself and crafting masterwork swords when she's not practising using them or training others to do so; she never raises her voice (though she can be coldly, cuttingly firm), is always alert and anticipating trouble, and has an acrobatic fighting style; she's famous in Furthinghome for catching hurled daggers and arrows in flight. Lyaunthra Aldegal has recently settled in Waterdeep, though she still retains homes in her three previous bases: Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and Secomber. "The Lioness" is a superb maker of bladed weapons and tools (who learned her skills from her now-dead parents), who can resharpen and balance almost any fragment of a mistreated item. She owns and travels between small weapon shops in Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and Secomber, and specializes in finding just the right weapon for a client, and in weapons-training and -practising with select clients. Known to have ironguard protection afforded by a wearable item (a choker or anklet, most believe), she's also known to be able to withstand great pain, once (in the days before her ironguard protection) slaying a killer who'd put his blade through her hilt-deep, and then (despite being hit by both acid and fire magics) staggering through four rooms to get healing potions, managing to drink them and pluck forth his blade without passing out. Aldegal is a fire-haired, rugged-looking woman who takes numerous lovers, arrives and departs quietly and unexpectedly, and is seldom to be found where one expects to find her. Quite a roster. If I now widen my reply further, to include elves, half-elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes (note that I'm still excluding shapechanging races and multi-armed intelligent "monsters"), I'd put Maethrammar Aerasume between Artru and Hammarandar, and Drizzt Do'Urden JUST behind Marlgrask. However, ask me this a year from now (Realms time), and - - even if there haven't been fatalities - - these rankings may have shifted around quite a bit. As I said, among individuals of this skill, determinations are whisker-thin. So saith Ed. I consider Ed's response and attempt to answer the question one of the best I've seen. A similar response will probably be needed if one were to attempt to compile a 'ranking' of the best mages/clerics/rogues/tanners:D/goat herders!/diplomats or whatever. Even then such an answer needs to come from someone with the authority and knowledge that Ed has(which in itself is not absolute).
creyzi4zb12 10-01-07, 11:47 PM	Why aren't their orcs included? So Drizzt is now that good since he ranks as top 4...maybe he's become epic in orc king book.
The_Shaman 10-02-07, 07:51 AM	Strange, I had always thought that there were two humans who were incredibly gifted at fighting - one was the ex-chosen and enforcer of Gilgeam (Shuruppak, I believe) and another was an ex-Thayan gladiator who iirc worked for the cult of Set. I thought either of them was at least level with Drizzt.
Eli_the_Tanner 10-02-07, 11:37 AM	Why aren't their orcs included? So Drizzt is now that good since he ranks as top 4...maybe he's become epic in orc king book. Not entirely, the characters on the list are not the highest-level of characters. They are on a similar experience level as Drizzt and Artemis. Here is an extension of Ed's answers from Candlekeep on the matter: Ed speaks: I’m with George: I care far more about the stories and essential characters of NPCs rather than their stats, but all right, I’ll (reluctantly) provide barebones (i.e. lacking weapon specializations and a lot of the later 2e added frills) 2e-only (as Sanishiver posted, it’s easy for those using 3e to craft game-precise versions of these folks using the right combinations of feats, prestige classes, et cetera) capsule stats, for the “new” characters only: Harmel Artru (NE hm Ftr9/T7: Dex 17, Cha 16) Loaros Hammarandar (LN hm Ftr14: Str 17, Dex 17) Ember Tsartaera (LG hf Ftr15: Str 16, Dex18) Skoalam Marlgrask (CN hm Ftr18: Dex 17, Con 17) Lyaunthra Aldegal (CG hf Ftr17: Con 17) Sraece Telthorn (CN hm Ftr16/Thief-Acrobat7: Dex 18, Cha 16) Ulmaer Rivrymm of Sheirtalar (LG hm Ftr14: Str 16, Dex 18) Aka ‘the Questmaster’ [[NDA, sorry]] Now, some may say that the levels given on this list are a bit low for “best” wielders-of-blades, but I say again: the only meaningful way I could answer Feanor’s question was to narrow my consideration of best to a definition of: supreme technique (superior finesse, if you will) in bladework. Otherwise, there are too many variables (X is alive today because Y slipped, or a deity who smiled on X MADE Y slip, or because X knew the darkened room they were fighting in just a little bit better, or because when the guards burst in it was Y who got his swordarm jarred for a critical moment, not X, or because it was X whose friends burst in, or Y the startled guard happened to stagger into . . . and so on). I believe THO and I have sufficiently communicated the difficulty of choosing “best” bladewielders to Feanor, our most important point being that there are another forty or so individuals, some famous and some publicly unknown, who are so close in skills to those I mentioned as to be “practically as good” if you don’t happen to be the Creator of the Realms and thus able to split Faerûnian hairs better than anyone else. :} (And, I remind you, I’m leaving out creatures - - mariliths, just to give one example - - who have more than two arms, and so can fence with a forest of skillfully-swung blades.) There are certainly combat-active beings in the Realms with higher levels than these folks, who would probably beat them in most fights; the “best” swordsman doesn’t always win. (3e DMs can of course - - and should - - load up the above-listed NPCs with Weapon Finesse and other rules touches to enhance their combat superiority.) Oh, one more matter: I’ll get to Gerath Hoan’s request for more about Sraece Telthorn as soon as I can. Promise. So saith Ed. Also here is a link to a class chronicles article that talks about some of these characters:http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613 Strange, I had always thought that there were two humans who were incredibly gifted at fighting - one was the ex-chosen and enforcer of Gilgeam (Shuruppak, I believe) and another was an ex-Thayan gladiator who iirc worked for the cult of Set. I thought either of them was at least level with Drizzt. Personally I think Shuruppak is perhaps the deadliest swordsman in the Realms. And would probably cream all the guys above. There is a difference between the best at killing with a sword and the best at wielding a sword. Combat, sword-fighting and killing are separate skill sets that are all at different levels among these warriors. You may have a technically perfect swordsman, who has never been in a fight in his life. Similarly you may have the deadliest killer in the world who continues to use the wrong end of a sword(unfortunately no one lives long enough to tell him). You may also have one of the most experienced combat veterans who refuses to kill another person. Discounting other factors such as non-humans, intelligence, experience, magic, allies, tactics, luck! etc. we are left pure skill with one's blade. A rather small element of any fight but a factor nonetheless - remember this only takes into consideration those using swords, what about daggers? axes? staffs? tridents? bows? That is why answering these 'best swordsmen' questions is often a bit more involved than it would appear. And as Ed stated above: 'the “best” swordsman doesn’t always win'
Chloramantis 10-02-07, 12:15 PM	There's some yahoo named Extinctionbeta, he is a very valuable source of knowledge on this topic ask him or view one of his brilliant posts!
Argaud 10-02-07, 03:08 PM	I was surprised by that list, since as I see it those guys are all mechanically worse than Dritzz (less level, lower abilities) and therefore would probably lose a duel with him. Except, y'know, Dritzz is not exactly a good duelist either, since mechanically speaking lightly armored two-weapon fighters are rather poor meleers. But characters like Duke Eltan of Baldur's Gate, Shuruppak or King Gareth Dragonsbane seem vastly superior to those guys posted. So why are they better warriors, I wonder.
Bonzai 10-02-07, 05:59 PM	Ranger: Drizzt Fighter: Drizzt Barbarian: Drizzt Cleric: Erevis Cale Rogue: Erevis Cale Wizard: Elminister Sorcerer and Paladin are up for grabs. These three canidates drive the biggest product sales, so I would say they are the most "powerful". They are unkillable for the time being, which is more than most of the Realms Patheon can claim at the moment. Lol, as I said before, the cover of the GHotR's says it all.
Eli_the_Tanner 10-02-07, 08:35 PM	But characters like Duke Eltan of Baldur's Gate, Shuruppak or King Gareth Dragonsbane seem vastly superior to those guys posted. So why are they better warriors, I wonder. I would concur that all those characters are probably superior opponents compared to the likes of Drizzt/Harmel Artru/Skoalam Marlgrask et al. Most confrontations resulting in the success of the former and the death of the latter. However Ed has placed these characters as superior swordsmen based on his opinion that they have 'supreme technique' with a blade. - Whether this alone can win a fight is another matter entirely (I would say not). Mechanically speaking Ed's bladesmen are good but not the best. This is because the D&D gives precedent to experience above anything else - meaning raw talent, technique or training mean little without comparable experience. One could explain this ingame(or in novel) as a character having amazing footwork, precision and form yet has not developed the necessary experience in battle to develop the timing, flow or adaptability that a seasoned warrior has. When describing the difference between two fighters their relative experience will be the most important factor in D&D [be it fluff or crunch]. Hence the disparity between Ed's appraisal of the best swordsmen and the highest level characters.
Dark Wizard 10-02-07, 09:03 PM	In terms of rules, one of those on Ed's list could have most of his feats filled out towards one weapon (such as the Weapon Supremacy branch). The higher level characters could have taken feats in other areas. So they are stronger characters but worse swordsmen.
dragonheart 10-02-07, 09:11 PM	when trying to do the ratings keep this bit of Ed's comments in mind: "I'm also going to restrict myself purely to matters of bladework, in a one-on-one fight in surroundings that favor neither combatant. In other words, I'm minimizing "street smarts" or dirty fighting or the adventurers' experience in exploiting traction, lighting, obstacles, distractions, and all of that: factors that seasoned adventurers (like Durnan of Waterdeep) can use to defeat foes who might be a shade faster or a whit better in pure bladework. This will work against Artemis Entreri, for example, but also against a host of other adventurers whom I won't even mention in this reply, but who might otherwise show up in my answer." think of it this way - these guys are ones that have focused their feats on blade work - but not automatically on damage nor have they neccissarily done the sorts of massive adenturing most PCs have done. they are tos sort of folks who when the choice is weapon specialization (extra damage) vs improved weapon focus (improved hitting) take the IWF. about the only nonhitting feat they probably have is improved initiative so that they can (hopefully) strike first and keep the foe off balance throughout the fight. In a striaght up fencing match with all other factors equal they are likely to "outpoint" even folks several levels higher; in a down and dirty fight for your life in a dark alley they might not do so well.
The_Shaman 10-03-07, 09:09 AM	I can agree on most of those, except for the part about "most PCs", which implied that they were of lowish levels. I'd say that while Faerun has a larger share of high-level characters than most, these fighters would all be more than a little beyond the scope of most characters. I myself have played several so far, but our groups have never gotten beyond lvl 8 or so. I'd say in the canon Realms there aren't many adventurers active after lvl 15 or so. On an unrelated note, Fighter 16/Thief-acrobat 7? Wow. Actually, is that a legit build?
GothicDan 10-03-07, 09:39 AM	Psht, legit build. *hand-wave.*
creyzi4zb12 10-03-07, 09:45 AM	Why aren't there any epics in Ed's characters?
GothicDan 10-03-07, 10:01 AM	Ask him. PS: All of my posts today will be silly. i am suffering from caffeine overdose, and last night, hallucinated that Elminster visited me, and didn't have a potion of Cure Disease.
Diffan 10-03-07, 10:14 AM	I'd probably nominate these Characters for their style in the way the represent their classes: Wizard: Elminster or Larloch Paladin: Gareth Dragonsbane or Texter Ranger: Dove Falconhand or Drizzt Do'Urden Sorcerer: Galaeron Nimedu sp? Cleric: Cadderly or Fzoul Rogue: Artemis Entreri or Mirt, the money lender Bard: Storm Silverhand or Danilo Monk: Master Kane or Danica Barbarian: Wulfgar (for lack of a better NPC) Druid: Jaheira (once again, for lack of a better NPC lol) Fighter: If I could find the thread where Ed says who's the best swordsman/woman, I'd instert that name here:______ These are all questionable of course, and I only throw these specific names because they are some of the most well known NPC's that characterize these specific classes fairly well.
Eli_the_Tanner 10-03-07, 12:15 PM	Why aren't there any epics in Ed's characters? Sraece Telthorn is epic level. Level 23 to be precise.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-03-07, 01:39 PM	I don't think there's any scientific way to answer such a question. And of course, there are millions of people in the Realms that we've never heard of. Perhaps the greatest current fighter (if there's a way to decide such a thing, with certainty) has never appeared in any published Realms work.
ExtinctionBeta 10-03-07, 02:49 PM	There's some yahoo named Extinctionbeta, he is a very valuable source of knowledge on this topic ask him or view one of his brilliant posts! Considering in progess...27%..LOADING...Please wait...LOADING......63% Confirming decision....... Request Granted : So you have come to me seeking out answers, how right you are to choose so. I would have done the same if I were in your position. The most powerful you say? Other than ED Greenwoods bias characters (The most powerful Godess: Mystria, The most powerful human: Elimenster), I would say casters in gerneral. Reason Being: Sure a Barbarian or Orc must work to gain their strength, then may attempt to learn other powers such as casting but still and always practing to maintain their strength. Then you have those such as a vampire...born with unatural strength...no need to strive to improve your muscles...you can go straight to casting. It really doesn't depend on the class but rather the indivdual. Not all casters are the same in power as not all warriors are the same in strength.
The_Shaman 10-03-07, 05:05 PM	As far as druids go, he might not have been the most powerful, but I was darn impressed by the "Fireshield" of the Tall Trees circle (from Champions of Valor). He makes those 13 druid levels seem practically like the cherry on the cake!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-03-07, 06:44 PM	Mystria? Elimenster? Who are they?
GothicDan 10-03-07, 06:49 PM	Clearly fictitious figments, judging from how their qualities in no way resemble those of Mystra or Elminster. :)
creyzi4zb12 10-03-07, 09:05 PM	Oh sorry....I thought yon were all pertaining to race...not character.
WizO_Unicorn 10-04-07, 10:45 PM	This thread is starting to degenerate into bashing one another. If you want it to stay open, please continue the discussion in a more constructive direction. WizO_Unicorn
creyzi4zb12 10-04-07, 11:20 PM	So what's better build for a barbarian class? Dwarf or Orc? I SAY ORC!! Benefits a lot with range and strength combo!!
GothicDan 10-04-07, 11:41 PM	Better how? Culturally, Orcs are far more suited to be barbarians.
Zsych 10-05-07, 12:14 AM	Wizard: Ioulaum :) ... Somebody drag that guy back from whereever he's wasting his time. About time he raised his enclave of Netherese human/illithid hybrids.
The_Shaman 10-05-07, 06:59 AM	Well, if anything could drag him out, those RSEs in the Grand History would. Any guesses what he's been up to recently? BTW, does he have anything to do with the Ioun stones?
Zsych 10-05-07, 10:11 PM	Ioun was another Netherese wizard I think. Lately Ioulaum is a 41st level wizard lich elder brain(meaning also 20 levels of psionics)... who can eat up people's wisdom or whatever epic spells they've researched depending on his mood. To the best of my knowledge he's not doing anything noticeable. And no explanation has been given for why he chose to become an elderbrain lich(although the deteriorating mental faculties old mages like Elminster theoretically suffer from might be a reason) I once suggested that having a whole bunch of brains should be conductive towards casting spells that require a circle of casters, or casting more spells per day, but the people who statted Ioulaum didn't bother to mention such... Not that he doesn't have levels enough as it is.
creyzi4zb12 10-28-07, 07:38 AM	What about Lanaxis the titan? Or Annam? Those guys were even older than the creator races, I doubt they would be huge in the power ratio.
Misery_The_Duelist 10-30-07, 04:44 PM	Why aren't there any epics in Ed's characters? Because they aren't spellcasters and for some reason spellcasters are put on this omnipotent pedestal? Actually thats probably cynical but I do see a common theme in all campaigns that the greatest powers are always mages. Ok, well all PUBLISHED campaigns. Personally I always thought fighter types took a back seat on most occasions. Can't say I know why but I prefer them and don't see why you never really see a high level fighter that isn't stronger then portrayed. Than again I'm a melee fan so thats that. On the flip side of my own argument, spellcasters have several ways out of situations if they go bad. "Those who live to run away..." and all. Fighters get in over their heads and unless they have an item to get them out, they're pretty much boned. Kinda cuts back on the number of possible high level fighters when they bite off more than they can choose and get out of it. Still ... you'd think there would be an "Elminster" equivalent fighter out there somewhere. Of course in our own games there likely are somewhere, or could be more, or possibly even lay in the laps of the PCs to fill in. ... wow ... I think I stopped making a point somewhere O_o
The_Shaman 10-30-07, 05:35 PM	You have a point - there aren't many near-epic or epic warriors in the FRCS/PGTF. Mind you, Candlekeep material has more than a few near-epic warriors... but few epics. One explanation - unfortunately, it relies on logic, and we all know how useful that is in D&D - is that warriors have shorter careers. Mages, even if they don't have access to age-extending spells, do not need to be in their physical prime to be fit to adventure. Thus, they are likely to have longer periods to accumulate those levels. Just how many epic characters in the realms have been active for less than 30-40 years?
GothicDan 10-30-07, 09:01 PM	Mages also have access to contingencies/simulacrums/clones/spirit jars/etc.
Alediran 10-31-07, 10:35 AM	Once a Mage can cast Stasis Clone then he is immortal. Just have a thought bottle to store experience and after that make clones. When you die and come back in a clone you use the Thought Bottle and voile, almost as new (you only loose like 100 xp points for storing experience in the Thought Bottle). That technique can be applied to anything that requires the spending of experience points (yes, including the crafting of magical items).
selunatic2397 11-01-07, 01:47 PM	Isn't it ironic that once 4ED hits this will be kinda moot? Then the most powerful in the world will have to be the PC's...:ahem: You just can not have any NPC that is higher than the standard 12 year old MMORPG player's character! Boy! Won't that make the author's lives heck? "Wait a minute! There is a 12 year old in Nebraska with a 10th Ranger...Ok...now Drizz't is only a....5th Ranger!"
creyzi4zb12 11-19-07, 08:30 PM	Didn't Elminster loose in spell battle against a lich named Raerlin? What happens if he faces Larloch?
Warning 11-19-07, 08:42 PM	Didn't Elminster loose in spell battle against a lich named Raerlin? What happens if he faces Larloch? From what I know, if 2 beings of equal power were to do battle, 1 being a lich and the other mortal. Doesn't the mortal have the advantage because a lich sacrfices it's body to become immortal? A skeleton vs a human, the human has the skeletal body and flesh over that, a bit extra in that sence. All the liches I read about including Szass Tam have frail body figures. So if Eleminster lost, then his foe was stronger in class I assume. I could be wrong on this though, so please don't quote me on it.
Karsus the Mad 11-20-07, 12:38 AM	Well, if anything could drag him out, those RSEs in the Grand History would. Any guesses what he's been up to recently? BTW, does he have anything to do with the Ioun stones? After Mystryl's death and reworking of magic, much of his research was likely useless, which I imagine would seriously upset a mage. My own conjecture is that he transformed himself into his current form to gain access to powers that don't require a weave. After 1385 I bet he's thinking "damn I'm smart. I knew this insurrance policy would be worth it in the end." The Ioun stone was invented by Congenio Ioun, an arcanist of the Nether Age.
mikebulko 11-21-07, 04:05 PM	Wouldn't a barbarian be better for an orc instead of dwarf? i played a dwarf barbarian in a party with two elves once. it seemed like all my low rolls were on stuff that didnt really matter like gather info checks and whatever (the rogue handled that stuff) and all my high rolls were in battle. at first level he took down 2 bugbears by himself without raging and a third level i decided to fight the level 20 gnome bard (i didnt know that at the time!) with spells from the book of vile darkness and lastest about 10 rounds of combat without a scratch. - granted i was no where near killing him before he ran off, but i passed everyone of my fort saves vs his spells in retrospect though, i think i would have benefited from taking a few levels of fighter as well.
creyzi4zb12 11-21-07, 08:19 PM	Hmmm....I think if you'll go for pure barbarian orc would be better... +4 strength really synergies with rage...while dwarf on the other hand has only +2 to constitution..it does make a synergy with rage but +4 strength is much much better, and besides, dwarves get speed penalty. If a dwarf barbarian is made, it's character should be mixed with fighter classes to negate the speed penalty when you wear heavy armor.
The_Shaman 11-22-07, 07:44 PM	OTOH, a dwarf barbarian can wear medium armor and not lose any speed... a dwarf and a human barbarians in medium armor will have the same speed, 30 ft/round. Plus, the bonus to saves and attacks are imo great for a warrior.
Khaelieth 11-23-07, 09:24 AM	Tbh... I'm disgusted there are that few Sun Elves included in the lists. Evidently, we're hiding our strength so the lesser beings don't catch on.
Karsus the Mad 11-23-07, 11:49 AM	Tbh... I'm disgusted there are that few Sun Elves included in the lists. Evidently, we're hiding our strength so the lesser beings don't catch on. OR....it might be because despite sun elf fandom belief, sun elves are selfish, cruel, spiteful little bastards that have destroyed Faerun on a scale that's simply not acceptable by logical thinking mortals, thus don't deserve a place? :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: Happy Thanksgiving!
Stigger 11-23-07, 11:51 AM	What KtM said...
Karsus the Mad 11-23-07, 11:53 AM	What KtM said... Why, thank you good sir.
Asgetrion 11-26-07, 01:54 PM	Mystria? Elimenster? Who are they? They're two of the most uber NPCs in Faerlun -- I'm stunned that you haven't heard of them, Rino! ;) :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-26-07, 03:49 PM	They're two of the most uber NPCs in Faerlun -- I'm stunned that you haven't heard of them, Rino! ;) :P :rofl: