Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kaede 11-15-07, 10:35 AM	Well, i just want to know... Is this war always there or it can be stoped? I have a problem with this because I have a PC that said "My character fought in Mulhorandis side of the war"... And the war never ended... I assumed he took off the place just tired of battling all the time... So... What's up with that war? As long i've heard, Mulhorand is winning... There is no book that gives more info about this... Could you give me some advises? A little debate between yourselves is accepted... but don't let me loss my way...
Suin Bahhar 11-15-07, 11:04 AM	Check out this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=869406&highlight=Ningal). Late 1374 Mulhorand has occupied all of Unther and is appointing sepatarchs as vassal rulers. This has increased the internal strife amongst the established mulan nobility as Horustep III has appointed even nonhumans as sepatarchs of untheric sattelite states. Untheric refugees have scatterred into Chessenta, Aglarond and the Shaar. The fighting continues mainly against the pockets of rebels dotted around Unther, who are still backed by Tiamat and Thayans (or did they relieve themselves of the resistance to Mulhurandi expansion?).
Lord Karsus 11-15-07, 12:45 PM	-In 1379 DR, Mulhorand finally conquers Unther, by taking her capital.
MarkusTay63 11-15-07, 05:44 PM	Yup, Unther finally went under. Mulhorand is casting it's eyes east now....
glitter 11-15-07, 07:08 PM	-In 1379 DR, Mulhorand finally conquers Unther, by taking her capital. Sic transit gloria mundi. And a single paragraph in "The grand history of the Realms" to get ride of my favorite settings of Faerun :mad:
Lord Karsus 11-15-07, 07:12 PM	Sic transit gloria mundi. And a single paragraph in "The grand history of the Realms" to get ride of my favorite settings of Faerun :mad: -Well, it's not being totally destroyed, but it will definitley be forever and intrinsicly changed.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-15-07, 07:19 PM	...Unless you choose to disregard what the timeline says, and develop things your own way.:)
Stigger 11-15-07, 07:26 PM	And disregard the holy writ of WotC? Blasphemer...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-15-07, 07:28 PM	And disregard the holy writ of WotC? Blasphemer... Forget blasphemer, I've become an apostate...
Stigger 11-15-07, 07:30 PM	*runs off to find instruments of torture for re-education and recanting of such vile and dark thoughts... what fun!*
BadCatMan 11-15-07, 07:39 PM	Snippets about the war are mainly to be seen in the FRCS 3e, Power Of Faerun and Dragons Of Faerun (pretty much the same info is given, though DoF should have some more). Sic transit gloria mundi. And a single paragraph in "The grand history of the Realms" to get ride of my favorite settings of Faerun :mad: It's a pity. While the war was interesting, saving lone Messemprar from the Mulhorand empire and then liberating Unther would be a great adventure. Especially when the heroes get backing from the likes of Thay, the Banites and the cult of Tiamat. You could always ignore it, or have an Untheric revolution take back the country.
MarkusTay63 11-16-07, 02:38 AM	Sic transit gloria mundi. And a single paragraph in "The grand history of the Realms" to get ride of my favorite settings of Faerun :mad:There are quite a few paragraphs like that in the book. I have to admit, the Old Empires one was particularly annoying - twenty years of real-time developing a storyline, and then to just end it like that without any thought. Its all so... ANTICLIMACTIC. :( <maybe that would be a good name for the new setting> ;)
Lord Karsus 11-16-07, 02:44 AM	I have to admit, the Old Empires one was particularly annoying - twenty years of real-time developing a storyline, and then to just end it like that without any thought. -Well, in their defense, that blurb goes into little detail, other than it happens. So, there is still plenty of room for development, either in the canon, or in home campaigns.
Stigger 11-16-07, 03:15 AM	Why Markus, that almost sounded like you were advocating a new name for the Realms... The Forgotten-for-Good-Reasons Realms...
The_Shaman 11-16-07, 08:47 AM	-Well, in their defense, that blurb goes into little detail, other than it happens. So, there is still plenty of room for development, either in the canon, or in home campaigns. Plus, there's nothing wrong in a good old-fashioned resistance movement. Just because Unther went down doesn't have to mean it stays down. I'm saying this even as I like Mulhorand much more..
glitter 11-16-07, 09:26 AM	-Well, it's not being totally destroyed, but it will definitley be forever and intrinsicly changed. To be honest, we have an old campaign based on the 1Ed background (my character is a follower of Ramman) so, it's already quite destroyed :P And disregard the holy writ of WotC? Blasphemer... And if you don't find consistent these writing from an edition to the next one ?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-16-07, 10:27 AM	glitter, he's kidding! Stigger, I didn't know you had instruments of torture on hand. Hmmm... This is sotra off-topic, but I was annoyed at how the Iron Throne plotline was apparently tied-up. Not even very well, either, since it wasn't explained in a detailed or sensible way how it was done (and it seemed like a way of explaining how the people in the Dalelands and Zhentil Keep have been getting endless weapons as of late).
Lord Karsus 11-16-07, 12:21 PM	Plus, there's nothing wrong in a good old-fashioned resistance movement. Just because Unther went down doesn't have to mean it stays down. I'm saying this even as I like Mulhorand much more.. -Of course not! I'd bet my enclave that Mulhorand is going to have her hands tied with Untheric rebels for some time, now. That is, of course, barring mass genocide of the Untheric people.
glitter 11-16-07, 01:06 PM	glitter, he's kidding. English isn't my first language but I get the meaning of his reply. The problem is what I wrote "Consistency". The situation of Unther (and specially of the churches of Ramman/Rammatep and Ishtar/Isis) described in FRCS is "weird".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-16-07, 01:11 PM	English isn't my first language but I get the meaning of his reply. Understood.:)
Stigger 11-16-07, 03:34 PM	Yes, lots of torture implements... tons even... don't ask why, its safer that way. :D The Iron Throne storyline... that's the one with Sfena or Glasya or something like that, right?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-16-07, 03:43 PM	Yes, lots of torture implements... tons even... don't ask why, its safer that way. :D Oh, fine... The Iron Throne storyline... that's the one with Sfena or Glasya or something like that, right? Yup...and the storyline was tied up by an NPC.:rolleyes: You can find those entries throughout the year 1374 in the GHotR.
sleyvas 11-16-07, 03:53 PM	-Of course not! I'd bet my enclave that Mulhorand is going to have her hands tied with Untheric rebels for some time, now. That is, of course, barring mass genocide of the Untheric people. I understand the roadside blast globes are reaking horrendous havoc to wagon traffic, especially since they've developed some means to link their release to some form of contingent magic which can recognize uniforms.
Lord Karsus 11-16-07, 04:12 PM	I understand the roadside blast globes are reaking horrendous havoc to wagon traffic, especially since they've developed some means to link their release to some form of contingent magic which can recognize uniforms. -So they say. Those Untheric rebels are killing plenty of other Untherites, though. Those contingency magics aren't without their bugs.
Suin Bahhar 11-16-07, 05:01 PM	Sounds like a lifetime of work for adventurer master trapspringers.
Lord Karsus 11-16-07, 05:02 PM	Sounds like a lifetime of work for adventurer master trapspringers. -Nodwick!
Suin Bahhar 11-16-07, 05:07 PM	Who?
Lord Karsus 11-16-07, 05:17 PM	Who? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodwick Artax and Yeagar frequently use Nodwick to set off traps, or to distract or bait monsters. Nodwick has died numerous times, but each time Piffany manages to revive him with her duct tape of healing, usually wrapping him from head to toe to put him back together (in one occasion, Nodwick was reduced to a pile of ashes, so the group poured his ashes into a "Hench Mold" with the words "Just add water" written on it; about the only time she hasn't used the duct tape); so Yeagar and Artax usually don't worry about tossing him into gruesome traps, feeding him to dragons, etc., if it will advance their quests. Nodwick isn't as intelligent as Artax or as wise as Piffany, but he possesses the most common sense in the group, and is the most likely to protest their hare-brained schemes. Over the course of his travails, Nodwick has developed a dry sense of humor and a jaded wit, and lost whatever fear of death he ever held. He still prefers to avoid dying if he can, though. (The trade paperbacks include a "Rest Index Peace" at the end of each volume, listing all the ways Nodwick has died up to that volume, this Index doesn't include Nodwick's deaths from Dragon and Dungeon Magazines, nor from the online comic)
Kaede 11-16-07, 05:48 PM	this is going off topic, please keep the line!
Lord Karsus 11-16-07, 06:25 PM	this is going off topic, please keep the line! -No, it's not.
Suin Bahhar 11-16-07, 06:43 PM	Ah, I remember him from dragon magazine now. Morbid humor ^^ lol. I heard Unther has a rising of a new rebel group. Untheric refugees have become restless and disruptive. Some faction has been supplying some refugee camps with magic, weapons and hate mongering. The tension in Chessentan and Mulhurandi cities of the commoners versus the newcomers are rising to dangerous levels. The new suplliers are the Zentharim, who make a hefty amount of profit on the situation by controlling their massive mountainous forges they stole from weakened dwarf citadels to mass produce arms and armour.
The_Shaman 11-16-07, 07:53 PM	-Of course not! I'd bet my enclave that Mulhorand is going to have her hands tied with Untheric rebels for some time, now. That is, of course, barring mass genocide of the Untheric people. By the way, is Mulhorand still using former Untheric slaves to help keep the peace in Unther (as I think Unapproachable East mentions) ? This could make for some interesting situations between the "former" slaves (ok, still slaves, kinda) and their former masters. Hooo-boy, this can get ugly.
Mula 11-16-07, 08:20 PM	There are quite a few paragraphs like that in the book. I have to admit, the Old Empires one was particularly annoying - twenty years of real-time developing a storyline, and then to just end it like that without any thought. Its all so... ANTICLIMACTIC. :( <maybe that would be a good name for the new setting> ;)Well, to be fair, practically everything sounds anticlimactic when summarized in a couple of sentences. "Drizzt & Co find Mithril Hall." "Frodo destroys the ring."
Charles Phipps 11-16-07, 09:06 PM	I have to admit, the Old Empires one was particularly annoying - twenty years of real-time developing a storyline, and then to just end it like that without any thought. Its all so... Well, with all due respect, did you want the war to go on forever? Yup...and the storyline was tied up by an NPC. You can find those entries throughout the year 1374 in the GHotR. Yes, and good riddance. I hope Gargauth takes over the Iron Throne. "A headless Archfiend heads a banking guild" needs work.
MarkusTay63 11-16-07, 11:59 PM	I can use this. :plotting: We've been using Anu in the Utter east thread. The Desert of Desolation states that he was big in Durpar at one point, so we've worked-up some history to explain that (Anu and Enlil joined together before setting of from the D&D Earth, in order to smooth things between their pantheons), with Anu splitting from Enlil and in disgust after the Orcgate Wars and taking over the southern Untheric church. He has since become a paranoid, xenophobic ego-maniacal power that feels his is the only 'True Faith'. Thats the short version - anyhow, I was thinking that this would be the perfect time to bring him back north on some sort of fanatical crusade. Don't know which way to play it yet - he could either go off the deep end and rush back to Unther and start building his armies, which wind up getting usellessly thrown up against Mulhorandi spear-points, or this new twist has him 'snap out of it' - he gets out of the funk he's been in for the last 2500 years and gets 'sane' real quick. He may even ally with gods he formally hated that would have some interest in freeing the Untherites, like Hoar or Tiamet. Perhaps he would even go to Kossuth, who is on good terms with the Thayans... Who knows, but a "Free Unther" campaign could be just the thing... Maybe Mulhorand can bring Manshoon down there (after he develops chronic Asthma) and he can confront the Rebels himself - "You are part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor... take her away!" Then he finds out how to get the Dracolaser up and running again, and destroys Alder... I mean the moon. :P But seriously, a rebellion could make for a most excellent campaign (and story - hint, hint WotC). Time for some novels set in the Old Empires. As long as their 's no heroic pirate captain and his Alaghi companion... sorry, I can't be rational for more then a few seconds at a time. ;)
Stigger 11-17-07, 12:44 AM	I might have to steal that pirate and alaghi from you Markus... just to see if my players are awake enough to catch it... maybe call the ship the Centennial Albatross... :D
MarkusTay63 11-17-07, 04:58 PM	"You've never heard of the Centennial Albatross? She's the ship that made the 'Shussel Run' in under five parsecs" "Ummmmm... isn't a Parsec a unit of distance?" "Screw you... let's go Crunchy..." "GROINK!" ;)
SmartPaladin 11-17-07, 06:07 PM	Maybe the scattered Clerics and Paladins of Hoar could come together, round up the faithfull, and joins the rebels. For no other reason then to kill the followers of Anhur. 'cause we all know how much Hoar hates Anhur. :P
Stigger 11-17-07, 06:26 PM	Heh, I was thinking exactly that myself there Markus... :blink: :D
MarkusTay63 11-17-07, 06:27 PM	Dirty, filthy Hoar :nonono: ;) :P
SmartPaladin 11-17-07, 06:44 PM	Dirty, filthy Hoar :nonono: ;) :P But, but... You said you loved me! :weep: :P Sorry, couldn't help that one. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-17-07, 09:20 PM	Well, with all due respect, did you want the war to go on forever? Yes, and good riddance. I hope Gargauth takes over the Iron Throne. You're assuming there still is an Iron Throne.
Charles Phipps 11-17-07, 10:08 PM	You're assuming there still is an Iron Throne. Uhhh yeah, the Iron Throne is explicitly functioning fine and dandy without the Head. It's being run by her Frost Giant second in command her former wizard. Recall Lords of Darkness? They made the right decision in getting rid of their stupid leader. Glaysia would NEVER have a child :-)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-17-07, 10:57 PM	Uhhh yeah, the Iron Throne is explicitly functioning fine and dandy without the Head. It's being run by her Frost Giant second in command her former wizard. Recall Lords of Darkness? They made the right decision in getting rid of their stupid leader. Umm, I'm talking about new entries in GHotR, which obviously override whatever was in older sources like LoD. Do you actually read posts before responding to them?
Charles Phipps 11-17-07, 11:50 PM	Umm, I'm talking about new entries in GHotR, which obviously override whatever was in older sources like LoD. Do you actually read posts before responding to them? :confused: Lords of Darkness describes the post GHOTR situation. It's only explained what actually happened there. BTW, that was very rude.
Lykor 11-18-07, 07:28 PM	Isn't Mulhurand getting destroyed (along with Thay and Sembia) in 4e? I know they've released a list of areas getting hit with the smitehammer, but can't recall it off the top of my head. That is, assuming it doesn't get retconned away.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-18-07, 07:49 PM	:confused: Lords of Darkness describes the post GHOTR situation. It's only explained what actually happened there. Err, how is that possible? LoD is a much older supplement. GHotR gives us the update. BTW, that was very rude. Well, your response to me was kinda rude too.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-18-07, 07:51 PM	Isn't Mulhurand getting destroyed (along with Thay and Sembia) in 4e? I know they've released a list of areas getting hit with the smitehammer... No, not exactly. "They" (assuming you mean WotC) hasn't released any such list, but fans and readers have been putting pieces of the puzzle together based on what information *has* been released. The prologue to The Orc King implies that Mulhorand isn't doing very well, but that doesn't mean it's been destroyed.
Charles Phipps 11-18-07, 08:00 PM	Lord of Darkness described the mysterious disappearance of the Iron Throne's leader. As arranged by her 3rd in command. GHOTR described that she was taken by Gargauth and that she's been turned over to Asmodeus. Ergo, nothing changed. We just had more info. :confused: What am I missing here?
Charles Phipps 11-18-07, 08:04 PM	Well, your response to me was kinda rude too. Maybe, but that was still uncalled for.
Lord Karsus 11-18-07, 08:15 PM	The prologue to The Orc King implies that Mulhorand isn't doing very well, but that doesn't mean it's been destroyed. -Did it? What did it say?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-18-07, 08:24 PM	Maybe, but that was still uncalled for. Seriously, sometimes your responses to me (and probably others) have this dismissive, "pooh-pooh" tone to them, and the actual content of said posts seems to have nothing to do with what I just talked about. It leaves the impression that you didn't really even read what I've written, or at least not in context.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-18-07, 08:25 PM	-Did it? What did it say? You can read a sample of the prologue chapter online. :)
Charles Phipps 11-18-07, 08:38 PM	As a general note, RF, while I may respond to your posts with some points. Quite a lot of my posts condense additional points that are unrelated to any responses I may make. I apologize if this has lead to confusion. I also don't mean to dismiss your points. You're a very articulent and knowledgable member of the Realms community.
MarkusTay63 11-18-07, 09:53 PM	-Did it? What did it say?An excerpt from the sample chapter online- “I have ventured outside of the Silver Marches,” Drizzt said, “have you? I have witnessed the death of once-proud Luskan, and with it, the death of a dear, dear friend, whose dreams lay shattered and broken beside the bodies of five thousand victims. I have watched the greatest cathedral in the world burn and collapse. I witnessed the hope of the goodly drow, the rise of the followers of Eilistraee. But where are they now?” “You speak in ridd—” the elf started, but Drizzt slammed him again. “Gone!” Drizzt shouted. “Gone, and gone with them the hopes of a tamed and gentle world. I have watched once safe trails revert to wilderness, and have walked a dozen-dozen communities that you will never know. They are gone now, lost to the Spellplague or worse! Where are the benevolent gods? Where is the refuge from the tumult of a world gone mad? Where are the candles to chase away the darkness?” Hralien had quietly moved around the wall and walked up beside Drizzt. He put a hand on the drow’s shoulder, but that brought no more than a brief pause in the tirade. Drizzt glanced at him before turning back to the captured elf. “They are here, those lights of hope,” Drizzt said, to both elves. “In the Silver Marches. Or they are nowhere. Do we choose peace or do we choose war? If it is battle you seek, fool elf, then get you gone from this land. You will find death aplenty, I assure you. You will find ruins where once proud cities stood. You will find fields of wind-washed bones, or perhaps the remains of a single hearth, where once an entire village thrived. “And in that hundred years of chaos, amidst the coming of darkness, few have escaped the swirl of destruction, but we have flourished. Can you say the same for Thay? Mulhorand? Sembia? You say I betray those who befriended me, yet it was the vision of one exceptional dwarf and one exceptional orc that built this island against the roiling sea.” Accent mine. ;) Yeah... we don't know what we are talking about... everything will be just fine... :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 11-18-07, 11:48 PM	“And in that hundred years of chaos, amidst the coming of darkness, few have escaped the swirl of destruction, but we have flourished. Can you say the same for Thay? Mulhorand? Sembia? -Oh well...I like(d) Mulhorand.
Mula 11-18-07, 11:55 PM	I'm thinking they'll remove parts of Mulhorand's very strong Egyptian feel. Thay could become more savage, perhaps a land transformed by the Spellplague into a dangerous wasteland full of magical horrors (or something like that). Just guessing.
Dark Wizard 11-19-07, 12:33 AM	Well, to be fair, practically everything sounds anticlimactic when summarized in a couple of sentences. "Drizzt & Co find Mithril Hall." "Frodo destroys the ring." I've read some very interest raising entries in timelines before (interesting to me at least). I'm not sure what it is, but I think it has to do with trying to tie things into the greater history and the other events in the timeline, that way you actually have a few more lines for each major event entry, even if they're spread across several entries. It doesn't help if the event is actually interesting. Well, with all due respect, did you want the war to go on forever? Maybe not forever, but a century or more isn't unheard of. Sometimes an invader never gets beyond a certain point into an occupied country and the border is just set there.
Charles Phipps 11-19-07, 01:19 AM	I don't know. The issue with Unther was that most of it's Babylonian Feel was out the window with Gilgeam's death. For me, I like the idea that they took the plot to a logical conclusion. I mean, seriously, HOW long has the Ssesthian Empire been at war with Amn?
The Ubbergeek 11-19-07, 02:13 AM	Empires come and go... It's how our world go, and you see frankly things any different really in made-believe worlds? As that guy said... Down.,. but not destroyed... A dream of independance and/or revenge may live, kept in head or realised with blades... Historical again. And you forget that the winners of today may become the loosers of tommorrow... What say that Unther will NOT ending absorbing the conquerors, untherizing them, or making a new, distinct and possible later independant culture? Or why a revolution /civil rebelion would not throw the decaying, corrupted and weak oppressor and get free or even REVERSE what happened? Great roleplaying possibilities... story hooks.... Open your books of world history.
MarkusTay63 11-19-07, 02:57 AM	I mean, seriously, HOW long has the Ssesthian Empire been at war with Amn?One of my least favorite storylines - I really feel it was done to bring attention away from Maztica (give Amn some other plots to work on). Of course, then they brought in the T'lincallis (Stingers) FROM Maztica, which just brings everything full-circle again. I disliked it to begin with, and with the 'Scorpionmen' involved I like it even less. Something just doesn't sit right with that whole thing - even if Amn is a bunch of D__ks, wouldn't other civilized nations come to their aid? Waterdeep? Tethyr? Think about it, if the monsters win, they're not just going to stop at Amn! The whole thing doesn't 'smell right' to me.
Charles Phipps 11-19-07, 03:39 AM	The whole thing doesn't 'smell right' to me. On my end, I have difficulty believing that Amn is incapable of mustering the needed gold to hire a mercenary army to deal with the issue either. In my mind, the only explanation is that Amn has more or less seceded that portion of the country to the monsters and what's left is a low level set of skirmishing on both sides of the border meant to let the other know that their still there. Maybe the Armies of Selune, Loviatar, and Cyric (Now THERE'S an interesting army---I wonder if they're all N and CN?) just are running the war on their own.
The_Shaman 11-19-07, 09:17 AM	Empires come and go... It's how our world go, and you see frankly things any different really in made-believe worlds? That is true, but the quote from the Orc King had me cringe. Empires worthy of that name do not die overnight; it is a testament to the endurance of their government and their people that they often take decades, or even centuries, to disappear - unless pressed by another empire, as was the case with Unther (but they still didn't last long enough). However, if Thay or Mulhorand disappeared overnight it would be worse than a tragedy - it would be a mistake. Besides, I can't help but be apprehensive: the Realms are what they are because of the protagonists and antagonists. Without the Thayans, for example, they just won't feel the same.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-19-07, 01:33 PM	I also don't mean to dismiss your points. You're a very articulent and knowledgable member of the Realms community. Well, thank you.:)
Lord Karsus 11-19-07, 05:30 PM	I mean, seriously, HOW long has the Ssesthian Empire been at war with Amn? -Wait, who? ;) -They certainly need a new PR person.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-19-07, 06:28 PM	It's the Sythsillian empire (or, "Sothsillian empire", if you prefer:rolleyes: ). In my Realms, they've been nipped in the bud already.
The Ubbergeek 11-19-07, 06:55 PM	That is true, but the quote from the Orc King had me cringe. Empires worthy of that name do not die overnight; it is a testament to the endurance of their government and their people that they often take decades, or even centuries, to disappear - unless pressed by another empire, as was the case with Unther (but they still didn't last long enough). However, if Thay or Mulhorand disappeared overnight it would be worse than a tragedy - it would be a mistake. Besides, I can't help but be apprehensive: the Realms are what they are because of the protagonists and antagonists. Without the Thayans, for example, they just won't feel the same. They are however just a part of CURRENT history. In the past, they didn't exist, in the future, they won't. You wanted a living Realms, it means also the changements of history...
Lord Karsus 11-19-07, 07:26 PM	They are however just a part of CURRENT history. In the past, they didn't exist, in the future, they won't. You wanted a living Realms, it means also the changements of history... -Wait...Say that again?
Stigger 11-19-07, 07:53 PM	No idea what the point of that one was Ubber... I'll mention though that in my Realms, they were quite successful and forced the Amnian state into extinction.
The_Shaman 11-20-07, 07:45 AM	They are however just a part of CURRENT history. In the past, they didn't exist, in the future, they won't. You wanted a living Realms, it means also the changements of history... Well, they have existed for iirc millenia, or at least many centuries. All that lives will die, as the saying goes, but I'd rather they didn't wither away in a metaphorical day or two - it will probably feel way too contrived.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 10:15 AM	"The changements of history"...? Well, I don't think that's as dumb as "grognardise/grognardarse".
Stigger 11-20-07, 11:38 AM	Didn't notice that before... Though I have to admit I find the term grognard amusing. Of course having said that, I find it amusing whenever someone slaps a label on anyone, since it just tells me that they've essentially closed their minds, and must insult others to make their opinions somehow justified... oh, he disagrees with me, he must secretly eat babies in his basement and sexually assault chipmunks in his spare time because of it... he is the evil <insert label here>!!!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 12:15 PM	Didn't notice that before... Though I have to admit I find the term grognard amusing. Of course having said that, I find it amusing whenever someone slaps a label on anyone, since it just tells me that they've essentially closed their minds, and must insult others to make their opinions somehow justified... oh, he disagrees with me, he must secretly eat babies in his basement and sexually assault chipmunks in his spare time because of it... he is the evil <insert label here>!!! LOL! And I agree with you that the term "grognard" is pretty dumb--it seems to be mostly used as an insult.
Bonzai 11-20-07, 12:22 PM	In my Realms, things happened a bit differently. In my realms Hoar, as the last of the Untheric Patheon, decided to help his people and become the last of the God Kings. My players became his unwitting agents in his plan to unite Unther. Through various deeds, the party set the stage for Hoar to become the new God King. The people of Unther, desperate for order, and revenge agaisnt the invaders flocked to his banner. United, the people of Unther were able to repel the invaders. The party also helped convince Shurrapak to become the chosen of Hoar in order to take his vengeance against Tiamat, for the death of his former master. Shurrapak was able to slay Tchazzar with the parties help, though at the cost of his life. Finally united, Hoar has set about rebuilding Unther, and stamping out the remaining cults of Tiamat and Banite incursions. The party retired as heros, helping to protect the shattered kingdom (Low level epic campaign, where we were looking to retire the characters afterward).
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 12:40 PM	Of course having said that, I find it amusing whenever someone slaps a label on anyone, since it just tells me that they've essentially closed their minds, and must insult others to make their opinions somehow justified... -Gee, that sounds like someone we know...:rolleyes: ;)
Stigger 11-20-07, 12:51 PM	Any resemblances those comments have to anyone living, dead, or otherwise is purely coincidental.... ;)
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 01:05 PM	Any resemblances those comments have to anyone living, dead, or otherwise is purely coincidental.... ;) -Oh, okay.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 01:29 PM	Any resemblances those comments have to anyone living, dead, or otherwise is purely coincidental.... ;) LOL. I'm still trying to figure out what "grognardise" is. Paradise for grognards? Grognard merchandise? A language that can be spoken?
Stigger 11-20-07, 01:32 PM	Its a demeaning and insulting way of saying that Ubber doesn't agree with out dissent of the coming changes in 4e, and that we should all just shut up, stop whining, and get with the program like good little consumers... or not. Not gonna put words in his mouth or anything... ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 01:37 PM	Its a demeaning and insulting way of saying that Ubber doesn't agree with out dissent of the coming changes in 4e, and that we should all just shut up, stop whining, and get with the program like good little consumers... or not. Not gonna put words in his mouth or anything... ;) I guess Ubbergeek speaks grognardARSE.
Stigger 11-20-07, 01:43 PM	No comment, despite my agreement that it could very well be the case. But I won't go there...
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 01:56 PM	I guess Ubbergeek speaks grognardARSE. -Or, he speaks out of his grognardARSE. (Just kidding, Ubber. I couldn't not say that! :D)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 02:02 PM	:heehee I can't help myself either! Sorry, Ubber, but you make yourself an easy target.
Stigger 11-20-07, 02:04 PM	Yeah, he did just kinda bend over awfully conveniently there... :D
MarkusTay63 11-22-07, 11:00 AM	LOL! And I agree with you that the term "grognard" is pretty dumb--it seems to be mostly used as an insult.I always thought I had a pair of Grognards... now I have to go and consult the medical dictionary again... :P
Jiggawha 11-25-07, 08:13 AM	culturally I doubt that anything will change in Unther, in real life Mesopotamia had been conquered numerous times by external forces who were afterwards assimilated (until Islam, but pharoahe seems like a tolerant guy) or this could be a part of another 4E simplification
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-25-07, 05:30 PM	Yeah, isn't it nice when the dude who conquers you is tolerant?
Charles Phipps 11-25-07, 07:12 PM	Yeah, isn't it nice when the dude who conquers you is tolerant? I like the Mulhorandi because they add spice to Lawful Good. In this case, the Mulhorandi conquer because they're a bunch of conquest minded people with god complexes. On the other hand, the "free" people are a bunch of anarchists who used to worship Evil Gods. Tough choice.
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 08:01 PM	On the other hand, the "free" people are a bunch of anarchists who used to worship Evil Gods. -The Untheric people have a bad rep.
Charles Phipps 11-25-07, 08:48 PM	-The Untheric people have a bad rep. Yeah like Thay. ;-)
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 11:45 PM	Yeah like Thay. ;-) -Well, Thay has it deservingly so. Unther, not so much.
The_Shaman 11-26-07, 07:31 AM	Well, kind of. Their rulers aren't exactly the nicest people around... so the rep spreads.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-26-07, 09:09 AM	Read the novel The Alabaster Staff to get a more focused view of the people (some of them, at least) in Unther.
Suin Bahhar 11-26-07, 09:30 AM	The code of Enlil follows the concepts of Ma'aat of the Mulhorandi in a lot of respects. It is very "eye for an eye" though. It was draconic but fair but Gilgeam the Fool has sullied that rep mostly. The Untheric people where very influential in fostering the Turami excellence in the Art. Marduk is also one of my favourite gods as he fearlessly battled the horrors the Untheric people faced on Toril.
Charles Phipps 11-26-07, 11:39 AM	Ironically, I really liked the fact they 'revealed' Bahamut and Marduk were one in the same god in FR. It sounds like it makes no sense but it's actually argubaly mythologically accurate. Especially if you except the Leviathan and Behemoth parallells.
Suin Bahhar 11-26-07, 01:11 PM	Any ideas on Bahamuts plans in the Old Empires besides opposing the church of Tiamat? Would he dare to openly declare his presence in Chessenta and Unther risking wrath from the clergy of Tchazzar and Tiamat?
Charles Phipps 11-26-07, 06:38 PM	I imagine he would. His best bet is to draw together their foes.
glitter 12-03-07, 11:49 AM	My players became his unwitting agents in his plan to unite Unther. Through various deeds, the party set the stage for Hoar to become the new God King. The people of Unther, desperate for order, and revenge agaisnt the invaders flocked to his banner. United, the people of Unther were able to repel the invaders. I can see a huge problem with that idea. Why the people of Unther would accept more easily Hoar than Ishtar/Isis ? Ramatep/Anhur is certainly not less qualified than Hoar to "replace" Gilgeam but as a good deity. The party also helped convince Shurrapak to become the chosen of Hoar in order to take his vengeance against Tiamat, for the death of his former master. Shurrapak was able to slay Tchazzar with the parties help, though at the cost of his life. Wow, THAT really sounds like an epic moment. In my game in Old empires, 2Ed or 3Ed, I always had a hard time to fit Shurrupak somewhere. Finally united, Hoar has set about rebuilding Unther, and stamping out the remaining cults of Tiamat and Banite incursions. Glad for the Untherites, even me, chosen of Ramman, likes to "torture" them :D
Bonzai 12-03-07, 06:18 PM	I can see a huge problem with that idea. Why the people of Unther would accept more easily Hoar than Ishtar/Isis ? Ramatep/Anhur is certainly not less qualified than Hoar to "replace" Gilgeam but as a good deity. The people of Unther are used to being repressed. In a way, consider it like modern Iraq. Yes, they had little freedom, and lived in fear of their ruler. However, under Gilgeams leadership the kingdom was relativley stable, and was able to defend it's self. Now the Country is being torn apart by foriegn invaders, and war is ravaging the region. Many yearn for the stability that the God Kings once provided. Hoar is the last of the Untheric Patheon (not counting Tiamat). He would be able to unite the people, and provide the leadership and strength that they lack. Even better, this is a God of vengeance and poetic justice. One that will allow them to strike back at all those who have wronged them over the years. Why not side with Hoar? Wow, THAT really sounds like an epic moment. In my game in Old empires, 2Ed or 3Ed, I always had a hard time to fit Shurrupak somewhere. Yeah, it was sort of an after thought to the campaign, but ended up being one of the coolest moments. Shurrapak was always a wild card in the region, but since the campaign was focused on Hoar's resurgence in Unther, it made sense that Hoar would approach him. The more I thought about it, the more I liked it. After all, as a fanatical zealot of Gilgeam, wouldn't he side with the God who could help him take vengance against his Master's slayer? And what better way to do so, than by taking out Tiamats chosen and former avatar? The fact that it would leave Chessenta up for grabs for Hoar is an added bonus. I designed this as a low level epic campaign, that would be the final climatic adventure for these particular pcs. The final throwdown between Shurrapak and Tchazzar was probably the most memorable, it litterally brought Tchazzar's palace down around them. Tchazzar had the upper hand, but as a chosen of hoar, I gave him the ability to make one final retrobutive strike before he died, which ended up taking Tchazzar out.
BadCatMan 12-03-07, 06:56 PM	That's a pretty cool idea. I've thought about Hoar/Assuran vs Tchazzar over Chessenta, though that would be a little unbalanced as it's demigod vs quasi-deity. Turning Shurrupak over to Hoar would even things out and looks really neat. Of course, there is one other surviving Untheric god - Anu, who in a few obscure references is kicking around in Durpar, the Raurin and the Murghom/Semphar region, and we guess, down in Ulgarth and the Utter East. I'm sure he'd love to make a comeback to Unther and take sole control.
MarkusTay63 12-04-07, 04:03 AM	Look for The Rise of Anu coming to local games stores in 2008. He's big, he's bad, and he's even a little mad... He's Anu, the ULTIMATE god!!! :dancin:
glitter 12-05-07, 12:22 PM	The people of Unther are used to being repressed. In a way, consider it like modern Iraq. Yes, they had little freedom, and lived in fear of their ruler. However, under Gilgeams leadership the kingdom was relativley stable, and was able to defend it's self. Now the Country is being torn apart by foriegn invaders, and war is ravaging the region. Many yearn for the stability that the God Kings once provided. Hoar is the last of the Untheric Patheon (not counting Tiamat). He would be able to unite the people, and provide the leadership and strength that they lack. Even better, this is a God of vengeance and poetic justice. One that will allow them to strike back at all those who have wronged them over the years. Why not side with Hoar? First reason: because they could be leery of Untheric god :) Second: Hoar isn't an Untheric god anymore (I can find many sages who state that, for sure :D ) Third: At the beginning of the ToT, there were 3 gods, Gilgeam, Ramman and Ishtar. At the end of the war, you have two: Isis (who replace Ishtar for centuries at her request) and Ramatep. Forth: if you look at the description of the resistance at Messamprar, what have we there ? - Untheric wizards, followers of Mystra - Former nobles (mostly evil) But how many are they ? quite a few according to me. Even if it "hurts" me to write it, the best thing to happen to Unther with these conditions is to fall into Mulhorandis arms. BUT according to some of the last books (Power of Faerun, Dragons of Faerun), the conditions could change quite a lot ... before the GHofR announced that everything was over. My players will have to do a little trip to Unther, invited by the Enclave/Wizards of the north and Ensi (see more here http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0304a&L=realms-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=14747 ) I'm still not sure of which moon deity is acting now over Unther, selune or Nanna-Sin ? :confused:
Bonzai 12-05-07, 03:21 PM	After the Time of Troubles, the barrier was dropped, and the Muholand/Untheric dietys are now all full fledged dieties. At the same time, Hoar also became a member of the Faerunian Patheon, though as far as I know that doesn't take away his membership to the Untheric patheon. My Campaign certainly differs from what is now established cannon. In my defense though, this was done well before the GHotRs was published. In fact it finished shortly after Dragons of Faerun came out. In my campaign I wanted to set out to save Unther, and restore the status quo (I.E. brink back relative stability, and keep Unther it's own seperate nation). Since Isis and Ramatep were Muholdand dieties, and Tiamat is already a protagonist in the area, my thoughts turned to Hoar. Wouldn't Hoar feel some responsability towards the people who have worshipped him for centuries? The campaign evolved from there, with the central theme being that Hoar was taking responsability for his people, and bringing justice back to a long oppressed land.
Suin Bahhar 12-07-07, 09:58 AM	I want to sprinkle a little ancient flavour trough my campaign by introducing Thayd in the Unther-Chessenta-Mulhorandi war. What side would he pick if any? What minions would Thayd use other than Kaorti? (I'm not sure my players are up to encountering these aliens)
Stigger 12-07-07, 05:45 PM	Well, I think its safe to say he wouldn't go with siding with Mulhorand... :D I'd think Chessentan, if only to spite both Mulhorand and Unther. Not really sure about minions though, could be nearly anything for a wizard like that.
Suin Bahhar 12-09-07, 10:40 AM	How would Thayd react to Deep Imaskari? I think it would be nice to see Thayd coveting their alliance but the Deep Imaskari could very well detest him for his (persumably diabolical) plans.
Stigger 12-09-07, 11:18 AM	Anyone's guess there I'd say... though perhaps they might be more inclined to side with him if he were in direct conflict with the Mulhorandi... but even then, he's a mulan as it is, so I'd say they just let their pesky ex-slaves fight it out amongst themselves.
Suin Bahhar 12-09-07, 11:33 AM	What are Deep Imaskari actually interested in on the surface? Hmmm. I could have the war threaten some dimensonal prsions the Imaskari placed in some of their ancient ruins. What caused their reëmergance again in Darkvision?
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 12:35 PM	What are Deep Imaskari actually interested in on the surface? Hmmm. I could have the war threaten some dimensonal prsions the Imaskari placed in some of their ancient ruins. What caused their reëmergance again in Darkvision? -At the end of Darkvision, Ususi, the protagonist of the novel, says that with Deep Imaskar utterly ravaged and destroyed, the Deep Imaskari are likely to reclaim their birthright and begin settling in the Raurin, and the lands that Imaskar once controlled. However, that plotline doesn't seem to have been picked up, as AGHotR doesn't mention any Deep Imaskari population booms on the surface.
Suin Bahhar 12-09-07, 01:06 PM	Mwahhahahah. Perfect. Thayd will be behind this, twisting Ususi's mind to advance Thayds plans and spell doom for the Deep Imaskari. (feel sorry for them though Ill make sure the Deep Imaskari will take some of my players with them)
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 01:16 PM	Thayd will be behind this, twisting Ususi's mind to advance Thayds plans and spell doom for the Deep Imaskari. -That sounds kind of cool, actually. :cool:
Suin Bahhar 12-09-07, 01:28 PM	Are Imaskari still godless?
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 02:02 PM	Are Imaskari still godless? -Yep, though I could see groups of Imaskari worshipping Ibrandul (sp?), the deity of the Underdark who was subsumed by Shar, and possibly Mystra.
The_Shaman 12-10-07, 11:02 AM	Are Imaskari still godless? IIRC Underdark (page 9) said that some of them worshipped old deities that were around when they descended - Chauntea, Mystryl, Shar, etc. The majority weren't very religious, though, and they don't have the religious tradition that most other civilizations do. I'd say you'd have a third of the typical cleric/population ratio and and no clerics above lvl 10 or so. Thayd will be behind this, twisting Ususi's mind to advance Thayds plans and spell doom for the Deep Imaskari. Oh, no. Hands ******* off. It was already bad enough that Deep Imaskar went under almost as soon as it appeared, and you propose this? Having the survivors move up only to be the pawns of some Thayan faction or another is definitely not the fitting end of one of the greatest magical empires of all time, as well as one of my favourite civilizations. Plus, if there's one group of individuals that Imaskari are likely to distrust, its mages from an obvious Mulan descent. Talk about adding insult to injury... On the other hand, the Zhentarim - they may just pull it off, although I think they'd be much more interested in an alliance (formal or not) with mages of such caliber. Cooperation, even fairly low-key, between the Imaskari and the Black Network is certainly a great way to boost the image of one of Faerun's classic evil organizations. I want the Imaskari back, and I want them back big. This is a civilization that has the potential to be the counterpoint of Haalrua, not a one-shot vassal of some Zulkir who couldn't get to their top 5.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 11:15 AM	Oh, please. Thay? Hands ******* off. It was already bad enough that Deep Imaskar went under almost as soon as it appeared, and you propose this? I agree that that development really sucked--why introduce a new element only to screw it over shortly after? Cooperation, even fairly low-key, between the Imaskari and the Black Network is certainly a great way to boost the image of one of Faerun's classic evil organizations. And, at the same time, taint the image of the Deep Imaskari.
Suin Bahhar 12-10-07, 04:26 PM	I feel sorry for them as well and stated so. The players will have a tough nut to crack upon deciding the fate of the Deep Imaskari. The party is able to unravel Thayd's plots before the Imaskari refugees are used. Thayd is certainly capable of the things I proposed though so I'll see how my campaign rolls. It is an evil campaign though. If Thayd could use a different group of minions what would yall suggest then? Red wizards are too obvious, Deep Imaskari too precious. Hmm. What about a lost race of corrupted aaracocra. Hmmm...
The_Shaman 12-10-07, 04:37 PM	And, at the same time, taint the image of the Deep Imaskari. Hmm, that is true to a point. A full-blown alliance would be absurd. Still, perhaps the Lady Enacter or the Lord Apprehender could have an...agreement with Zhent agents, purely informal and at safe distance. You know - certain bits of information pass nearby agent X, a certain magic scroll ends up where wizard Y could buy it... The Imaskari have been secluded for quite a while, and the Black Network has agents practically everywhere. Although to be honest, I brought the Zhentarim up as a counterpoint to Thay. They could manage conning the Imaskari, although it's going to be hard enough. The Red Wizards? Not really likely... or fitting.
Vulpes 12-10-07, 11:42 PM	However, that plotline doesn't seem to have been picked up, as AGHotR doesn't mention any Deep Imaskari population booms on the surface. Well, as Ususi herself stated, it would be a good long while before "High Imaskar" would become much more than her in the Purple Tower trading with that family, and the purple crystals of the Celestial Nadir DO get a mention in the GHotR a few years from "now." The Imaskari still want to rebuild Deep Imaskar, they just, or at least Ususi just, think it's time they put their eggs in more than one basket. I would definitely think they'd be distrustful of any Mulan, including Red Wizards. Deep racial memory might make the Mulan less-than-willing to deal with them anyway. Frankly, I think they're going to be too busy licking their wounds and trying to figure out what to do with themselves in the future to really have any interest in doing anyone's dirty work for them. Just MHO, of course.
glitter 12-21-07, 12:28 PM	In my campaign I wanted to set out to save Unther, and restore the status quo (I.E. brink back relative stability, and keep Unther it's own seperate nation). Since Isis and Ramatep were Muholdand dieties But I still have to disagree on that point. Even if we put anhur aside (his 3Ed behaviour doesn't seem consistent with the 2ed background, but, hey, it's the charm of chaotic guy), there's the problem of the church of ISHTAR. Where are the believers ? where are all the poor souls whose life depend on the help of the church ? Just say "What ? The two goddess switch seven centuries ago ? Goodbye, let me die alone" ? No way. What I appreciate with that point of view, it's the compatibility with the 3ed background, the "small" church wouldn't be able to protect it from Gilgeamits no the dark claws of Bane. my thoughts turned to Hoar. Wouldn't Hoar feel some responsability towards the people who have worshipped him for centuries? The campaign evolved from there, with the central theme being that Hoar was taking responsability for his people, and bringing justice back to a long oppressed land. Well, I'm not very partial about Hoar for the reason said before, but it seems you started with a good idea and manage to fit some real good parts, so, congratulations. :cool: