Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shades of eternity 05-16-07, 12:41 PM	basically I'm arguing a vs match on another forum and need to have an idea of how many 20+ wizard's exist in the realms and in particular in halruua and as part of elminister's croneys (such as the 7 sisters, harpers, etc).
Renvale999 05-16-07, 01:25 PM	To be honest, you're looking at hundreds at the very least...if you count Thay, Haluraa, and the City of Shade...right there I guarentee you have hundreds of 20+'s wizards.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 01:33 PM	Kuje's NPC list has all listed NPCs and levels and the like from 1E and 2E... And it may have part of 3E up by now. Yup, he has 3.X NPCs up, too. http://home.rochester.rr.com/kuje/
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 06:10 PM	-The Seven Sisters are not cronies!
Alediran 05-16-07, 07:24 PM	-The Seven Sisters are not cronies! Most of them at least :D
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 07:43 PM	-Although they are, again, not Elminster's cronies, I actually meant crone. The Seven Sisters are certainly not crones.
Old Sage 05-16-07, 08:28 PM	...and as part of elminister's croneys (such as the 7 sisters, harpers, etc).Why say something like this? Any dedicated reader of the Realmslore would realise such a statement is inherently false.
Old Sage 05-16-07, 08:29 PM	Kuje's NPC list has all listed NPCs and levels and the like from 1E and 2E... And it may have part of 3E up by now. Yup, he has 3.X NPCs up, too. http://home.rochester.rr.com/kuje/Indeed. Kuje is dutifully updating the 3e/3.5e source also. These listings should prove useful.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 08:31 PM	-And, at least spell it right. It would be 'cronies', not 'cronys'.
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 08:44 PM	basically I'm arguing a vs match on another forum and need to have an idea of how many 20+ wizard's exist in the realms and in particular in halruua and as part of elminister's croneys (such as the 7 sisters, harpers, etc). Let's just put it this way. More concentrated power than has ever been published in any D&D world minus the Divine. Ouch. I'm sure you'll have whiners. Dare just one to give me a contest.;)
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 08:55 PM	:plotting:
Burningspear 05-16-07, 09:29 PM	Why say something like this? Any dedicated reader of the Realmslore would realise such a statement is inherently false. does not matter, the bad feeling u get when u see such uber casters is not positive, specially when u get the feeling (as i do) that they are all inbred hillbillies (no insult to real hillbillies meant)
Old Sage 05-16-07, 09:35 PM	But they're not "in-bred" and they certainly aren't "hillbillies." These are just inaccurate labels that certain individuals in the FR community have placed on Elminster, the Seven Sisters, and the like because they either don't like them, or haven't bothered to properly research the Realmslore before they've opened their mouths or posted comments online.
Lady_Mhaor 05-16-07, 09:44 PM	Oooo thats that slay :duel: some of us just cant do the research you capable of old sage, please lower you standards I do get awful headaches bumping into it
Old Sage 05-16-07, 09:48 PM	You can't read Ed's freely available comments posted at Candlekeep and compiled into easy-to-reference PDF and/or HTML files?
Burningspear 05-16-07, 09:51 PM	But they're not "in-bred" and they certainly aren't "hillbillies." These are just inaccurate labels that certain individuals in the FR community have placed on Elminster, the Seven Sisters, and the like because they either don't like them, or haven't bothered to properly research the Realmslore before they've opened their mouths or posted comments online. Does not change my impression feeling wise on them, and no amount of "proper realmslore" is going to change that.:smirk: to me they are a bunch of inbred Hillbillies with overpowered mega batteries up their hiney's to power their uber Mystran abilities.:tie: (rant finished :rant: :banghead: :bump: )
GothicDan 05-16-07, 10:10 PM	Burning, I sincerely hope you're being sarcastic.
Lady_Mhaor 05-16-07, 10:17 PM	You can't read Ed's freely available comments posted at Candlekeep and compiled into easy-to-reference PDF and/or HTML files? Most certainly not *Sarcasm, cough* Besides thats why we have these forums :P not to be mean to people but to assist those less informed and put them on the path to oghma meh, humor is truly a dangerous thing when in short supply
Burningspear 05-16-07, 10:20 PM	Burning, I sincerely hope you're being sarcastic. Yes and No, i am being sincere in my opinion, but saying so in a sarcastic way, though u have to take my feelings serious in this regard. :plotting:
Lady_Mhaor 05-16-07, 10:23 PM	So you dont like the chosen your just saying it in a mean a funny way?
Old Sage 05-16-07, 10:23 PM	Does not change my impression feeling wise on them, and no amount of "proper realmslore" is going to change that.:smirk: to me they are a bunch of inbred Hillbillies with overpowered mega batteries up their hiney's to power their uber Mystran abilities.:tie: (rant finished :rant: :banghead: :bump: )I have to agree with GD. I hope you are being sarcastic. Most certainly not *Sarcasm, cough* Besides thats why we have these forums :P not to be mean to people but to assist those less informed and put them on the path to oghma meh, humor is truly a dangerous thing when in short supplyAnd that's fine... when the Realmslore is vague on such subjects and assumptions thus, can be made with a certainty degree of innocence and ignorance. But there's no clear lore to support the types of labels Burningspear suggested above. They're incorrect statements, especially when there is official lore, from Ed Greenwood himself, that clearly illustrates both how and why such statements are incorrect.
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 10:27 PM	Quit pandering to the kiddies Sage. When they realize they are acting like kiddies, they just might stop acting that way. Or maybe not. No loss either way.:m:
Burningspear 05-16-07, 10:30 PM	And that's fine... when the Realmslore is vague on such subjects and assumptions thus, can be made with a certainty degree of innocence and ignorance. But there's no clear lore to support the types of labels Burningspear suggested above. They're incorrect statements, especially when there is official lore, from Ed Greenwood himself, that clearly illustrates both how and why such statements are incorrect. No amount of righteous words from Ed himself will change the way i feel about them billies, that is my prerogative, its my feelings, not yours, and u have your right to your own, i don't mind that, but let me have mine, and don't think u can change my mind with a few words that are "from the maker himself", i could care less about that. As with any book or equivalent, you create your own set of feelings and pov at the characters and setting being portrayed by another's words, but pictured by your own mind still.
Burningspear 05-16-07, 10:31 PM	So you dont like the chosen your just saying it in a mean a funny way? Yes, and: if u think it funny, thats your pov :smirk: have fun with that then :shifty:
Old Sage 05-16-07, 10:33 PM	*shakes head* LK, is that ticket to Osse still available?
Burningspear 05-16-07, 10:35 PM	Quit pandering to the kiddies Sage. When they realize they are acting like kiddies, they just might stop acting that way. Or maybe not. No loss either way.:m: Do not insinuate that i am a kid or anything less just because i do not agree with certain mindsets. i have my opinions and feelings regarding something, and i am entitled to voice them, in my own way, i do not need some condescending comment from you just because you do not seem to like my opinion or agree with it. (this is not meant as flaming in any regard, nor do i have qualms against Brennon on any personal level, just to make some points clear here :tie: ) And my apologies to the poster of the thread on diverting from his intended subject.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 10:49 PM	*shakes head* LK, is that ticket to Osse still available? -I was just about to suggest it. Look, I even made a CD for the trip there! Hope you like disco...:D
GothicDan 05-16-07, 10:51 PM	Do not insinuate that i am a kid or anything less just because i do not agree with certain mindsets. i have my opinions and feelings regarding something, and i am entitled to voice them, in my own way, i do not need some condescending comment from you just because you do not seem to like my opinion or agree with it. And you don't think it's offensive to treat Ed's characters in such a way, when there's no actual basis in lore for it? That's far more rude than some of us acting a little condescending towards you for holding opinions that have no actual factual basis in reality. You called them INBRED and HILLBILLIES. Those aren't OPINIONS. Those are things that can be proven or disproven by factual evidence, just as much as their races or alignments are. There's nothing opinion based in me saying, "You were born in Zimbabwe," and you actually weren't. I could say "Amlaruil is a dwarf," but that would no longer be an opinion. That would be me making a statement that is disproven wrong by canon.
Burningspear 05-16-07, 10:51 PM	-I was just about to suggest it. Look, I even made a CD for the trip there! Hope you like disco...:D Osse, what does it stand for and where is it?:lightbulb , i haven't a clue about that one..
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 10:55 PM	Osse, what does it stand for and where is it?:lightbulb , i haven't a clue about that one.. -Osse stands for...well, Osse. That's what the continent is called. As for where it is. Well, we don't know exactly where it is, but it is an island-continent to the south. All of the pertinent information concerning Osse can be found in the novel Lady of Poison.
Burningspear 05-16-07, 10:58 PM	And you don't think it's offensive to treat Ed's characters in such a way, when there's no actual basis in lore for it? That's far more rude than some of us acting a little condescending towards you for holding opinions that have no actual factual basis in reality. You called them INBRED and HILLBILLIES. Those aren't OPINIONS. Those are things that can be proven or disproven by factual evidence, just as much as their races or alignments are. There's nothing opinion based in me saying, "You were born in Zimbabwe," and you actually weren't. I could say "Amlaruil is a dwarf," but that would no longer be an opinion. That would be me making a statement that is disproven wrong by canon. They are opinions i have because of certain dislikes i have grown to have in regards to them billies. As i have stated before, it is my feeling that comes up in this way regarding how a man several 100's (?, at least) of years older then a lady can have her as his "wife", that to me reeks of the same feeling i get about "inbred hillbillies". You do not need to disprove that, as u can't, its a feeling, and feelings, like tastes cannot be disputed. not rationally.
Burningspear 05-16-07, 11:00 PM	-Osse stands for...well, Osse. That's what the continent is called. As for where it is. Well, we don't know exactly where it is, but it is an island-continent to the south. All of the pertinent information concerning Osse can be found in the novel Lady of Poison. ok, thnx :gah: :bump: (smilies :smirk:, just because i think they r funny)
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 11:02 PM	-Being inbred entails breeding with someone who is closely blood related. Would it really be inbreeding if, by some strange coindicence, Elminster happened to sleep with someone who was related to him? If he is, say 120 years older than the woman in question, that would be, about five or six generations ago. The blood certainly has thinned at this point...It's all very subjective, methinks. While you do raise a point that, every once and a while, Elminster might bed someone distantly related to him, I don't think he makes that decision on purpose, nor do I think it happens very often.
Burningspear 05-16-07, 11:17 PM	And you don't think it's offensive to treat Ed's characters in such a way, when there's no actual basis in lore for it? That's far more rude than some of us acting a little condescending towards you for holding opinions that have no actual factual basis in reality. You seem to put a "feeling about something" and a "factual based opinion" in the same category, this is imo impossible. Thats like saying apples and pears are the same.
Old Sage 05-16-07, 11:42 PM	As i have stated before, it is my feeling that comes up in this way regarding how a man several 100's (?, at least) of years older...As of 1375 DR, Elminster is 1,163 years old. ...then a lady can have her as his "wife", that to me reeks of the same feeling i get about "inbred hillbillies".I'm still not entirely sure how this qualifies El as an "in-bred hillbillie." You do not need to disprove that, as u can't, its a feeling, and feelings, like tastes cannot be disputed. not rationally.Feelings often have a basis in fact, or at least, what can pass for facts most of the time. Since I'm still unsure how you can interprete Elminster as an "in-bred hillbillie", as it has no basis in fact, I going to continue to believe that your statements here are incorrect.
Old Sage 05-16-07, 11:43 PM	Well, we don't know exactly where it is, but it is an island-continent to the south.It is generally assumed that Osse is one of the "unknown lands" marked on the world map on pg. 231 in the FRCS... likely the larger continent at the bottom SE of the map itself. We have no definitive official lore [yet] to completely support that assumption however.
BrennonGoldeye 05-17-07, 07:54 AM	Ya know, I find it a first class ticket to gigglesville that someone whose is in fact inbred several several times over within El's lifetime alone to be trying to pawn that classification off on anyone else. Before ya get all mad Burning, go back 50 odd generations and see how many ancestors you have. Notice how its a much larger number(by an order of close to 10,000,000) than the actual number of humans to have ever lived. Hmmm. Any hills around your house?;)
Lord Karsus 05-17-07, 09:07 AM	-If you go by the Judeo-Christian version in the Book of Genesis, we're all inbred.
Alediran 05-17-07, 09:22 AM	-If you go by the Judeo-Christian version in the Book of Genesis, we're all inbred. Not even that is necesarry, the theory of evolution says that we are all descendants of the first living organism, therefore all life in this planet is just one big grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand grand (ad infinitum) son of a unycelular being (a primitive anaerobic bacteria) and we are all brothers and sisters. And that is the reason I can't understand why this world is so screwed. "The tree, the rock, between you and me, the Force surrounds us and binds us."
Lord Karsus 05-17-07, 09:32 AM	Not even that is necesarry, the theory of evolution says that we are all descendants of the first living organism, therefore all life in this planet is just one big grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand grand (ad infinitum) son of a unycelular being (a primitive anaerobic bacteria) and we are all brothers and sisters. And that is the reason I can't understand why this world is so screwed. "The tree, the rock, between you and me, the Force surrounds us and binds us." -Not neccessarily. Theoretically, interloper "creatures" could have arrived, at some point or another. That would lead to, theoretically, at least two sources of origin.
BrennonGoldeye 05-17-07, 09:44 AM	Ick, Origin. I can't stand those silly ascended dofii. Oh wait, wrong board. :)
Alediran 05-17-07, 09:59 AM	-Not neccessarily. Theoretically, interloper "creatures" could have arrived, at some point or another. That would lead to, theoretically, at least two sources of origin. Its a possibility, but the possibility that bot sources have a common origin is also possible.
Burningspear 05-17-07, 09:59 AM	Ick, Origin. I can't stand those silly ascended dofii. Oh wait, wrong board. :) :smirk:
Lord Karsus 05-17-07, 10:34 AM	Its a possibility, but the possibility that bot sources have a common origin is also possible. -Which is the problem with all of this. We just don't know. :(
BrennonGoldeye 05-18-07, 10:10 AM	-Which is the problem with all of this. We just don't know. :( Well, some of us know, but we promised MaskedOne we wouldn't tell. ;)
MaskedOne 05-19-07, 01:14 PM	It's always good to keep such agreements with me.:) Less excuses to fling random geography. Now then, I've been distracted by Bane for a little while. Does anyone know what Szass Tam is up to in Thay these days? I return to Toril, we have unrest in Thay and I'm trying to decide how to meddle or whether I should just leave youngsters to the care of other youngsters.
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 01:26 PM	Does anyone know what Szass Tam is up to in Thay these days? -I don't know. Some guy named Richard Byers was there recently, though, and wrote a book about it.
Karsus the Mad 05-19-07, 07:40 PM	El is of royal blood....we all know how royalty goes;) As for powerful wizards, that's been answered pretty well. Kuje's NPC file is pretty good. There's also that 96th level wizard....:shifty:
Old Sage 05-19-07, 09:02 PM	-I don't know. Some guy named Richard Byers was there recently, though, and wrote a book about it.See RLB's "The Haunted Lands" trilogy, of which... Unclean, the first book in the trilogy, has just been released.
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 10:16 PM	See RLB's "The Haunted Lands" trilogy, of which... Unclean, the first book in the trilogy, has just been released. -Never mind, Sage. You missed the..."in-characterness" of the exchange. What you did say was correct, though. There's also that 96th level wizard....:shifty: -Hmm...If I am 41st level, and you are 41st level, and our other third is 41st level, if we ever somehow reunited, you think we might become a 123rd level Wizard? :w00t:
clevercommie 05-20-07, 11:16 AM	-Not neccessarily. Theoretically, interloper "creatures" could have arrived, at some point or another. That would lead to, theoretically, at least two sources of origin. I never thought i'd see a discussion of panspermia on a fr thread... a mite off topic me thinks...
MerrikCale 05-20-07, 02:13 PM	-The Seven Sisters are not cronies! of course they are.
Lord Karsus 05-20-07, 05:49 PM	I never thought i'd see a discussion of panspermia on a fr thread... a mite off topic me thinks... -Yeah, we talk about the craziest things here... of course they are. -If you can give me one example of each for each of the Seven Sisters being...cronied (?) by Elminster, I'll buy you something nice.
XHereticX 05-20-07, 06:01 PM	Not even that is necesarry, the theory of evolution says that we are all descendants of the first living organism, therefore all life in this planet is just one big grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand grand (ad infinitum) son of a unycelular being (a primitive anaerobic bacteria) and we are all brothers and sisters. And that is the reason I can't understand why this world is so screwed. "The tree, the rock, between you and me, the Force surrounds us and binds us." Now now, remember that the Out of Africa Eve theory is just one out of many theories out there.
Old Sage 05-20-07, 08:26 PM	of course they are.Do we really need to go over this again?
MerrikCale 05-20-07, 10:32 PM	-If you can give me one example of each for each of the Seven Sisters being...cronied (?) by Elminster, I'll buy you something nice. ahhh. A challenge. How about if I can make up...I mean...give you examples of 4 out of 7. They're all essentially the same character anyway
GothicDan 05-20-07, 10:42 PM	They share similar abilities and character traits, which one would expect among sisters. God forebid there be some analogical repetition in mythology. Oh wait, it's all over. Just read the Book of Revelations, for a start.
MarkusTay63 05-21-07, 12:22 AM	There are only three - The Simbul, that Drow 'wench', and Alustriel... the rest are knock-offs. I can't even be bothered remembering their names. Oh wait... theres also the DEAD one, shes 'almost' cool.... However, I'm fairly sure none of them are inbred. I have noticed though an uncomfortable trend for older males in FR to eventual 'do' girls they have raised as their daughters, and that might be the basis for burning's opinion. Not that I'm siding with him, mind you; I can barely even understand him. ;)
GothicDan 05-21-07, 12:26 AM	I like Laeral a lot, too. My favorites of the Seven are Laeral, the Simbul, and Alustriel.
MarkusTay63 05-21-07, 12:51 AM	I suppose your right, after Blackstaff Laerel started becoming her own person in my mind. She used to just be someone Khelben kept around to take care of the 'little things'. :eek: So I think she's moved up from toadie to lackey, and maybe even full-blown Cronie! (no pun intended) ;)
GothicDan 05-21-07, 01:01 AM	I was more interested in her due to the whole Crown of Horns incident... Not related to Khelben in any way.
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 09:34 AM	So I think she's moved up from toadie to lackey, and maybe even full-blown Cronie! (no pun intended) ;) -Talk about social mobility. So, what comes next? ahhh. A challenge. How about if I can make up...I mean...give you examples of 4 out of 7. They're all essentially the same character anyway -Nope, not good enough. For the Seven Sisters to all be Elminster's cronies, we need examples of all seven sisters taking part in such behavior. Share what you've got so far, though, if you want.
shades of eternity 05-21-07, 03:05 PM	man use one word and set off a flame war. I was actually wanting to use this info in an arguement on spacebattles.com against the burning legion to show the level power of the characters. yesh guys.
Alediran 05-21-07, 03:41 PM	Are you talking about Warcraft's Burning Legion? Man, I know manes who are smarter than those guys.
Karsus the Mad 05-21-07, 04:14 PM	man use one word and set off a flame war. I was actually wanting to use this info in an arguement on spacebattles.com against the burning legion to show the level power of the characters. yesh guys. Don't worry. You were 100% correct in calling the Seven Sisters, the Harpers, etc, Elminsters cronies, regardless if you meant it in a negative manner or not. Why say something like this? Any dedicated reader of the Realmslore would realise such a statement is inherently false. -Nope, not good enough. For the Seven Sisters to all be Elminster's cronies, we need examples of all seven sisters taking part in such behavior. Share what you've got so far, though, if you want. It's inherently correct according to the definition of the word 'crony'. They are, from everything published, longtime close friends of Elminster that have often accompanied him for various activities;) There you go LK, all 7:)
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 07:29 PM	Don't worry. You were 100% correct in calling the Seven Sisters, the Harpers, etc, Elminsters cronies, regardless if you meant it in a negative manner or not. It's inherently correct according to the definition of the word 'crony'. They are, from everything published, longtime close friends of Elminster that have often accompanied him for various activities;) There you go LK, all 7:) -The Seven Sisters were accused of cronyism, which is, though related, as I am sure you know, is inherently different than simply being cronies. Stop being difficult. Do I need to lock you in the closet again? Hmm?
Old Sage 05-21-07, 08:01 PM	It's inherently correct according to the definition of the word 'crony'. They are, from everything published, longtime close friends of Elminster that have often accompanied him for various activities;) There you go LK, all 7:)KtM, I actually expected more from you...
Zandilar 05-21-07, 08:03 PM	Heya, -The Seven Sisters were accused of cronyism, which is, though related, as I am sure you know, is inherently different than simply being cronies. Stop being difficult. Do I need to lock you in the closet again? Hmm? Okay, I'm a class A pedant... Here are a few definitions of the word crony I found... Close friend or companion; chum. a long time close friend or companion. 1665, Cambridge student slang, probably from Gk. khronios "long-lasting," from khronos "time," and with a sense of "old friend," or "contemporary." Cronyism is the practice of favouring close friends without regard to their qualifications, and is a much later word. While the Seven Sisters, Khelben, and Elminster might all be cronies (of each other), it's not in the sense of cronyism. On the other hand, there are several Chosen who seem a little more aloof, and I wouldn't call them cronies... But that might just be because we don't get to see them that often - like the Srinshee and the Silent Chosen - and so we don't know how close they actually are to the other Chosen.
BrennonGoldeye 05-21-07, 08:13 PM	Thanks for the help All.:ayyyy!:
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 08:38 PM	Thanks for the help All.:ayyyy!: -All of this stuff should be 'ported to the "What's the matter with Mystra" thread. ;)
Karsus the Mad 05-21-07, 09:27 PM	-The Seven Sisters were accused of cronyism, which is, though related, as I am sure you know, is inherently different than simply being cronies. Stop being difficult. Do I need to lock you in the closet again? Hmm? The OP did not accuse anyone. He merely referred to the 7 as Elminster's cronies, in which you replied they weren't cronies. Old Sage said the OP was incorrect. I merely pointed out the simple fact that regardless of the intentions behind the OP's statement, he was indeed correct, and that the 7 are correctly considered cronies of Elminster. KtM, I actually expected more from you... Busy, busy schedule. I can't please everyone I suppose:weep:
BrennonGoldeye 05-21-07, 09:43 PM	-All of this stuff should be 'ported to the "What's the matter with Mystra" thread. ;) Well, in a way, it was. Might cause more trouble than it's worth though. :D Please pardon the attempted use of itallics in a thread title. :confused:
ancalimohtar 05-26-07, 02:04 PM	Is this thread a joke? A bit, elaborate hoax to portray board regulars as nerdier than they actually are? Because, come on. The guy doesn't like those characters. So what? Don't get your panties in a bunch because your favorite magical, beautiful, fantasy girlies have had their honor impugned. What's next? Are you going to tell me Drizzt not a boring emo fruitcake? Because he most certainly is to me.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 02:23 PM	Because, come on. The guy doesn't like those characters. So what? Don't get your panties in a bunch because your favorite magical, beautiful, fantasy girlies have had their honor impugned. What's next? Are you going to tell me Drizzt not a boring emo fruitcake? Because he most certainly is to me. Lawl. "Don't tell people what to think. Only I can do that."
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 04:06 PM	Is this thread a joke? A bit, elaborate hoax to portray board regulars as nerdier than they actually are? Because, come on. The guy doesn't like those characters. So what? Don't get your panties in a bunch because your favorite magical, beautiful, fantasy girlies have had their honor impugned. -You know, maybe if you spend a little more time around here, you'd discover that the majority of us don't really like when incorrect information is disseminated, especially when those with fertile minds are present. What's next? Are you going to tell me Drizzt not a boring emo fruitcake? Because he most certainly is to me. -Well, you are 100% wrong, then. About the fruitcake part, anyway. Multiple times, Drizzt has either implied or downright stated his sexual attraction to Catti-Brie.
Karsus the Mad 05-26-07, 05:34 PM	-Well, you are 100% wrong, then. About the fruitcake part, anyway. Multiple times, Drizzt has either implied or downright stated his sexual attraction to Catti-Brie. ?fruitcake is a derogative slang term for a crazy and ecentric person. I think Drizzt could have been considered emotionally unstable prior to getting his head together. Semantics my dear LK, make the world go round:embarrass
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 05:38 PM	?fruitcake is a derogative slang term for a crazy and ecentric person. I think Drizzt could have been considered emotionally unstable prior to getting his head together. Semantics my dear LK, make the world go round:embarrass -Fruitcake is also a derogative slang for a gay male, which is the context that I, and presumably the OP, was using it in. The usage that I am citing is far more prevalent and common than the usage you are citing. I've never heard anyone use the term in that context before.
Karsus the Mad 05-26-07, 05:52 PM	-Fruitcake is also a derogative slang for a gay male, which is the context that I, and presumably the OP, was using it in. The usage that I am citing is far more prevalent and common than the usage you are citing. I've never heard anyone use the term in that context before. Yeah, I know. I simply like twisting words to their litteral definitions in order to display alternate meanings to what a person said in order to prove them wrong. Primarily to cause embarassment, enlightenment, or both. Also, I'm twisted like that and gain pleasure in doing so:embarrass In this case I believe it's an example of someone being unwittingly correct tho', despite the intent of the post. Basically, I was actually agreeing with you by indirectly saying his intent was wrong....just in case that wasn't clear yet;)
MaskedOne 05-26-07, 07:16 PM	-Fruitcake is also a derogative slang for a gay male, which is the context that I, and presumably the OP, was using it in. The usage that I am citing is far more prevalent and common than the usage you are citing. I've never heard anyone use the term in that context before. Risky presumption in this case. I'm vastly more likely to use the term as your mad counterpart defined than I am to use your definition and had never actually considered it to have any application remotely connected to sexual preference till your earlier post.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 07:38 PM	While I normally associate 'fruitcake' with crazy, the post as mentioned seemed more to be similar to the definition LK used. Drizzt is 'emo,' which is similar to punk, and punk was originally often used as a derogatory word for gays.
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 08:44 PM	Yeah, I know. I simply like twisting words to their litteral definitions in order to display alternate meanings to what a person said in order to prove them wrong. Primarily to cause embarassment, enlightenment, or both. Also, I'm twisted like that and gain pleasure in doing so:embarrass In this case I believe it's an example of someone being unwittingly correct tho', despite the intent of the post. Basically, I was actually agreeing with you by indirectly saying his intent was wrong....just in case that wasn't clear yet;) -I'm supposed to know you like the back of my hand? Better start delving deeper into those psychoanalysis texts...:P Risky presumption in this case. I'm vastly more likely to use the term as your mad counterpart defined than I am to use your definition and had never actually considered it to have any application remotely connected to sexual preference till your earlier post. -If you don't mind me asking, where exactly do you come from? Like I said, never once in my life have I ever heard the word used in a derogative sense not directed towards homosexuals.
ancalimohtar 05-26-07, 09:35 PM	-Fruitcake is also a derogative slang for a gay male, which is the context that I, and presumably the OP, was using it in.You presumed wrong. Drizzt is not gay, and I never called him such. I called him a fruitcake, which is kind of like a crackpot, a nutter-butter, etc. You know, maybe if you spend a little more time around here, you'd discover that the majority of us don't really like when incorrect information is disseminated, especially when those with fertile minds are present. This isn't about incorrect information. This isn't about fact versus lie. This is about opinions. Some people don't like the Seven and Elminster. I like El, and rather like the Seven--well at least the ones I can differentiate, anyway--but if someone doesn't, calls them inbred hillbillies, why are you arguing with him in such a petulant tone? The guy made it extremely clear that: As i have stated before, it is my feeling that comes up in this way ... You do not need to disprove that, as u can't, its a feeling, and feelings, like tastes cannot be disputed. not rationally.I mean, you can't argue with opinions. The connotations of words are in the realm of opinion. I can call Halaster a jerk, and that would be my right, and if you disagreed, that would be your right too. But calling something like this "inherently false" and saying it is "incorrect" is bad form and childish.
BrennonGoldeye 05-26-07, 09:37 PM	Is this thread a joke? A bit, elaborate hoax to portray board regulars as nerdier than they actually are? Because, come on. The guy doesn't like those characters. So what? Don't get your panties in a bunch because your favorite magical, beautiful, fantasy girlies have had their honor impugned. What's next? Are you going to tell me Drizzt not a boring emo fruitcake? Because he most certainly is to me. Hmm, sorry for the lack of attention all, the husband decided to gift with a Dell XPS710, took a few days to get everything functioning.:D Hey, ancalimohtar, you didn't get the joke then, and you don't get it now. Back away slowly....
GothicDan 05-26-07, 09:54 PM	I mean, you can't argue with opinions. The connotations of words are in the realm of opinion. I can call Halaster a jerk, and that would be my right, and if you disagreed, that would be your right too. But calling something like this "inherently false" and saying it is "incorrect" is bad form and childish. You can call Halaster a jerk. However, if you called Halaster a red-head, because you feel that's your opinion, then you'd be wrong. Your opinion does not change facts, and the bloodlines of the Chosen are facts, not opinions.
Zandilar 05-26-07, 10:05 PM	Heya, -If you don't mind me asking, where exactly do you come from? Like I said, never once in my life have I ever heard the word used in a derogative sense not directed towards homosexuals. Putting my oar in for this one.. I come from Osse... err Australia. Fruitcake pretty much means nutty. Fruity, on the other hand, is used for someone who acts or might be gay (male, for clarification).
GothicDan 05-26-07, 10:08 PM	I'm fruity! But not a flamer!
Lady_Mhaor 05-26-07, 10:21 PM	then stop flaunting it ;)
Dark Wizard 05-26-07, 10:21 PM	Not getting into the main discussion, but opinions can be less correct if based on faulty or incomplete information. A correct opinion is saying something like "I don't like Elminster because of he is epic levels." This would be correct, Elminster is epic, and I am justified in my right to dislike that aspect of him. A less correct opinion would be saying something like "I hate Szass Tam because he's a goody two-shoes Harper and high priest of Lurue, damn unicorn hugger." This would be incorrrect because Szass Tam in the books is not how I described him in my stated opinion at all. Just saying "it's my opinion, you ain't ever going to change my mind no matter the evidence you show me otherwise" does not give you a free room and board to reside in ignorance.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 10:25 PM	A less correct opinion would be saying something like "I hate Szass Tam because he's a goody two-shoes Harper and high priest of Lurue, damn unicorn hugger." This would be incorrrect because Szass Tam in the books is not how I described him in my stated opinion at all. Trying to picture Szass Tam like that... Bwaaaaahahaha!
BrennonGoldeye 05-26-07, 10:40 PM	Oh my, this is my new best quote.....:D Not getting into the main discussion, but opinions can be less correct if based on faulty or incomplete information. A correct opinion is saying something like "I don't like Elminster because of he is epic levels." This would be correct, Elminster is epic, and I am justified in my right to dislike that aspect of him. A less correct opinion would be saying something like "I hate Szass Tam because he's a goody two-shoes Harper and high priest of Lurue, damn unicorn hugger." This would be incorrrect because Szass Tam in the books is not how I described him in my stated opinion at all. Just saying "it's my opinion, you ain't ever going to change my mind no matter the evidence you show me otherwise" does not give you a free room and board to reside in ignorance. We could get him a cute "weave" and some contacts......Bwaahahahhaaaaaaaaa
MaskedOne 05-26-07, 10:41 PM	-If you don't mind me asking, where exactly do you come from? Like I said, never once in my life have I ever heard the word used in a derogative sense not directed towards homosexuals. The question is relatively logical and therefore not likely to annoy me. However it is not one I have any intention of answering. I do not share easily trackable identifying information on the net with unknown parties. Barring an excessive amount of effort on your part that might irritate me, you are an unknown party and I do not have the inclination to try and change that. Sorry, not a personal issue related specifically to you. I just have certain stringent personal rules on internet communication. Handing you that information breaches said rules quite thoroughly.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 10:43 PM	You should have replied "Dweomerheart."
Old Sage 05-26-07, 10:44 PM	I come from Osse... err Australia.Not funny, Zan. Really. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 05-26-07, 10:47 PM	You must admit Sage, your just south of nowhere....;)
MaskedOne 05-26-07, 11:10 PM	You should have replied "Dweomerheart." That answer works as flippant or semi-honest for the persona of MaskedOne though what gives anyone the impression that MaskedOne is that high in Mystra's regard is questionable. I gave LK the honest and relevant if less than useful answer. Others asking for reasons will get different answers. Really though, I'm not a divinity (normally) and Mystra likes El more. She needs him more in some ways, actually. El provides an anchor for her psyche and an agent that can be trusted beyond reason where I provide sword, shield, councillor and other roles of value. It would be easier to mold El into taking up my roles in conjunction with the Simbul and Azuth than it would for me to take his role.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 11:24 PM	Azuth is so cool... I'd actually love to see the Simbul one day become a demigoddess of invocation, evocation, and battle magic.
MaskedOne 05-26-07, 11:41 PM	Long as abjuration, transmutation and magics hidden and lost remain open. The capacity to claim those portfolios in short order and stand as independent power is one of about 100 contingencies I've developed against specific forms of cataclysm. The value of those specific portfolios is beyond easy qualification.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 12:00 AM	Abjuration is very cool. At one point I was considering making a group of warrior wizards dedicated to Azuth and Mystra, "The Silver Sword and Shield," with a unique PrC that basically let them basically specialize in Abjuration and Evocation magic, both, while restricting them in a lot of other ways. Though I guess the same thing could effectively be accomplished by the order being made up of Evokers and Abjurers separately, but trained to work together.
MaskedOne 05-27-07, 12:06 AM	If I had any tolerance at all for D&D specialists then Abjurers would be a personal favorite. As it is, I enjoy the school but I'm not into specialists.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 12:23 AM	I really dig almost all specialists. It's probably because I look at wizardry in much the same way I do physics... Physics is just too huge for you to try to know it all with any level of detail, which is why you pick up specialties when you get your doctorate. It's also really why I love Halruaa. I've gotta' say it's my favorite realm in Faerun.
Lord Karsus 05-27-07, 12:28 AM	It's also really why I love Halruaa. I've gotta' say it's my favorite realm in Faerun. :: The Elves of Evermeet, as one, stand up and turn their backs ::
GothicDan 05-27-07, 01:26 AM	*Sighs!* Evermeet is not really a part of Faerun. It's an island thousands of miles away with hardly any direct political ties.
Zandilar 05-27-07, 03:05 AM	Heya, Not funny, Zan. Really. ;) It's not my fault the author of Lady of Poison decided to include thinly veiled references to Australia! :P
ancalimohtar 05-27-07, 05:35 AM	Not getting into the main discussion, but opinions can be less correct if based on faulty or incomplete information. A correct opinion is saying something like "I don't like Elminster because of he is epic levels." This would be correct, Elminster is epic, and I am justified in my right to dislike that aspect of him. A less correct opinion would be saying something like "I hate Szass Tam because he's a goody two-shoes Harper and high priest of Lurue, damn unicorn hugger." This would be incorrrect because Szass Tam in the books is not how I described him in my stated opinion at all. Just saying "it's my opinion, you ain't ever going to change my mind no matter the evidence you show me otherwise" does not give you a free room and board to reside in ignorance.I understand this, and obviously agree. But I don't think where you're drawing the line (and where others are drawing the line) is a good place. For example, the allegations of hillbillyism and cronyism were never meant literally. What is a literal hillbilly anyway? The dictionary says it's someone from a backwoods or remote mountainous area. I mean, that's 95% of the Realms. And we already know from earlier posts on the definition of "crony" that the Seven and El are engaged in plenty of cronyism, most of it quite merry. This is what I said earlier: I mean, you can't argue with opinions. The connotations of words are in the realm of opinion.So hillbillyism's negative connotations, which people are disagreeing with, can't be proven or disproven. The guy just doesn't like the fact that a thousand-year-old man is frolicking with young chicks. He thinks that's a trait of hillbillies. And so he called them that. I see nothing wrong with it. In any case, your extreme example with Szass I disagree with too. I can most definitely say that I dislike Szass because he's a goody-two-shoes. He's simply not evil enough for me. Maybe I like my evil really evil. Like adult-themed evil, not pansy FR-evil. In which case your example does fail, notwithstanding allegations of unicornphilia.
Zandilar 05-27-07, 08:23 AM	Heya, So hillbillyism's negative connotations, which people are disagreeing with, can't be proven or disproven. The guy just doesn't like the fact that a thousand-year-old man is frolicking with young chicks. He thinks that's a trait of hillbillies. And so he called them that. I see nothing wrong with it. Nevermind the fact that this thousand year old man is actually frolicking with women almost as old as he is, who only just happen to look in their mid 30s (the Seven Sisters are all around 600 years old, and they all look to be in their 30s or there abouts - with the exception of Qilue, who I'm sure looks like a female drow in her prime). I'm sorry, it just had to be said. ;) (BTW: Yes, I'm aware that he doesn't just frolick with other Chosen, but honestly - what is the big problem with mature, adult women making the choice to be with older men? (Sure, there is the issue of how many seem to make that choice, but that's another story...)) (I really should just make sure I have everything right before posting... *sigh*)
BrennonGoldeye 05-27-07, 02:44 PM	(I really should just make sure I have everything right before posting... *sigh*) I think your even cuter than normal when your a tad flustered Zandilar.;)
GothicDan 05-27-07, 02:51 PM	The guy just doesn't like the fact that a thousand-year-old man is frolicking with young chicks. He thinks that's a trait of hillbillies. And so he called them that. I see nothing wrong with it. It wasn't the hillbillies part most of us were disagreeing with, but rather the inbred part. That being said, it's our perogative to give our opinions about other peoples' opinions, too. I have absolutely no problem with saying I think other peoples' opinions are idiotic and make no sense, and nor do I get personally upset if other people say the same things about mine - provided we both discuss things intelligently. I think this is a huge fault with our society in general. We're encouraged not to "judge" each other. We SHOULD judge each other, because without judgments, there's no civilization or society. Ultimately, I lose no sleep over how I treat people, because I treat them exactly the way I want to be treated myself. And that's that Golden Rule!
MerrikCale 05-27-07, 03:31 PM	It's also really why I love Halruaa. I've gotta' say it's my favorite realm in Faerun. That might be my least favorite. I am not a huge "magic guy"- I 've always preferred the ranger/rogue type of play. So realms totally dependent on magic are not my cup of tea.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 04:23 PM	That might be my least favorite. I am not a huge "magic guy"- I 've always preferred the ranger/rogue type of play. So realms totally dependent on magic are not my cup of tea. Out of the core classes, I rank my favorite classes as follows: Wizard/Sorcerer (I refuse to separate them into two classes for personal reasons) Cleric Druid Paladin Fighter Ranger Monk Bard Rogue Other areas I like a lot are Rashemen, Cormanthor, Aglarond, Thay, Cormyr, the Silver Marches, and the Sword Coast. Lots of magic, me? Never!
souldnce9 05-27-07, 06:10 PM	oo oo me::dancin: Wizard Sorcerer Cleric Bard Rogue Monk Ranger Fighter Then the rest. I like Waterdeep, Amn, Calimshan, the Sword Coast, the Dalelands, The Silver Marches, and the Moonsea!
Lord Karsus 05-27-07, 06:17 PM	*Sighs!* Evermeet is not really a part of Faerun. It's an island thousands of miles away with hardly any direct political ties. -Evermeet is indeed a part of Faerūn, albeit a far away island. Guam is part of the US, and is a far away island. And, furthermore, Evermeet has always had deep ties to mainland Faerūn. While many of the political ties have come and go, can you simply ignore the cultural, religious and ethnic ties Evermeet has to mainland Faerūn?
MaskedOne 05-27-07, 06:37 PM	The U.S. is a nation. Faerun is a continent. The two terms are not synonymous and I have doubts that you can make a case for Guam being part of the continent of North America. I won't argue about ties between Evermeet and certain areas or peoples of mainland Faerun.
Lord Karsus 05-27-07, 06:43 PM	The U.S. is a nation. -Incorrect. The U.S. is a state.
Jhiroth 05-27-07, 06:45 PM	-Incorrect. The U.S. is a state. And you wonder why that spell failed....
MaskedOne 05-27-07, 06:52 PM	-Incorrect. The U.S. is a state. Provide the technical definitions that you're using to make that conclusion and the reasoning process used. Regardless, neither term is synonymous with continent so your Guam example remains off target.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 06:54 PM	LK is a poly sci student, if I remember correctly. You probably shouldn't insult him in that particular arena. On the other hand, I'll contradict him here: -Evermeet is indeed a part of Faerūn, albeit a far away island. Guam is part of the US, and is a far away island. And, furthermore, Evermeet has always had deep ties to mainland Faerūn. While many of the political ties have come and go, can you simply ignore the cultural, religious and ethnic ties Evermeet has to mainland Faerūn? There are no professional political cartographers in the world of Faerun, or any overarching political alliances that would cover such large geographic areas. Thus, it's entirely questionable as to Evermeet's classification as part of Faerun. Just because the Hispanics of Puerto Rico share cultural, religious, and ethnic ties to Spain doesn't mean they're a part of the same continent.
MaskedOne 05-27-07, 07:03 PM	LK is a poly sci student, if I remember correctly. You probably shouldn't insult him in that particular arena. I'm aware of that possibility and its the reason I want the definitions he's working from. Now if I come to the conclusion that he's just arguing an invalid point for amusement then I'll change tactics. For the moment, I want to see his reasoning. Still, unless he can make a case for either term being synonymous with continent, the Guam analogy remains off base.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 07:05 PM	I agree with what you're asking for, Masked. I just wanted to point out to Jhiroth that humiliating a poly sci major's knowledge of political delineations probably wasn't the most accurate or appropriate way to insult him. :)
MaskedOne 05-27-07, 07:07 PM	On that, we agree.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 07:10 PM	Good. Because I still disagree with him on his actual analysis of Evermeet being a part of Faerun. ;) I bet the only reason it was usually mentioned as a part of Faerun was because it was the only continent that they actually used from Ed's original Realms, and it would have been difficult to market it as something separate from the rest of the line.
Burningspear 05-27-07, 07:14 PM	However, I'm fairly sure none of them are inbred. I have noticed though an uncomfortable trend for older males in FR to eventual 'do' girls they have raised as their daughters, and that might be the basis for burning's opinion. Not that I'm siding with him, mind you; I can barely even understand him. ;) hehehe, but indeed correct on how i base my oppinion...
GothicDan 05-27-07, 07:25 PM	Well, in that case, your opinion IS wrong. Inbred refers to genetics, not emotional ties. You can say "That's gross to me," or "That's wrong," but not "That's inbreeding." The last is a physical quantifier, not an opinion-based qualifier.
Burningspear 05-27-07, 07:29 PM	Well, in that case, your opinion IS wrong. Inbred refers to genetics, not emotional ties. You can say "That's gross to me," or "That's wrong," but not "That's inbreeding." The last is a physical quantifier, not an opinion-based qualifier. nope, my opinion is only wrong in your eyes, not mine. I TOLD U AGAIN AND AGAIN: The FEELING i get when i see those chosen etc. how they are portrayed, that is what makes me think they r inbreds, not perse the actual facts, i could care less about facts when my feelings tell me a certain conceptual feeling about how i perceive a person/ group like that.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 07:31 PM	nope, my opinion is only wrong in your eyes, not mine. I TOLD U AGAIN AND AGAIN: The FEELING i get when i see those chosen etc. how they are portrayed, that is what makes me think they r inbreds, not perse the actual facts, i could care less about facts when my feelings tell me a certain conceptual feeling about how i perceive a person/ group like that. Oh, yeah. I remember now. You're one of the irrational ones around here, who ignore logic and facts when forming your opinions. :) I think that's the definition of what Dark Wizard was pointing out. But, if that's how you life your life, go ahead. I can't do anything to change it (though I would, if I could).
Burningspear 05-27-07, 07:37 PM	You're one of the irrational ones around here, who ignore logic and facts when forming your opinions. :) But, if that's how you life your life, go ahead. I can't do anything to change it (though I would, if I could). Feelings of an certain concept do not have to be supported by logic and rationality, its as i told already, like taste, it cannot be told to be bad or good, its just a personal concept of what u prefer, or not. And i never stated they were actual inbreds, i only stated they felt like inbreds because of the way they are portrayed. not likely u would be able to change my feelings, with your logic. thats just contra logical.
Zandilar 05-27-07, 08:01 PM	Heya, And i never stated they were actual inbreds, i only stated they felt like inbreds because of the way they are portrayed. not likely u would be able to change my feelings, with your logic. thats just contra logical. I'm feeling real snarky today, it seems - but I'll refrain from being a female dog about it. You feel they're inbreds because "of the way they are portrayed". The first part of that sentence is an opinion. The second part takes your opinion and frames it as factual. You're entitled to feel they are inbred. But you can't turn around and imply that they're portrayed that way, because they're not. That is what we're all trying to show you is wrong - it's not an opinion, it's fallacious argument based on your opinion, not on fact. I don't know what texts you're reading about the Chosen, but you are sorely misguided about them. (Note: that is my opinion of your opinion.)
GothicDan 05-27-07, 08:04 PM	In other words: you can't present facts based off of your opinion, and then try to use those 'facts' to justify your opinion. That's circular logic.
Burningspear 05-27-07, 08:14 PM	Heya, I'm feeling real snarky today, it seems - but I'll refrain from being a female dog about it. You feel they're inbreds because "of the way they are portrayed". The first part of that sentence is an opinion. The second part takes your opinion and frames it as factual. You're entitled to feel they are inbred. But you can't turn around and imply that they're portrayed that way, because they're not. That is what we're all trying to show you is wrong - it's not an opinion, it's fallacious argument based on your opinion, not on fact. I don't know what texts you're reading about the Chosen, but you are sorely misguided about them. (Note: that is my opinion of your opinion.) whatever, i have my "feelings and opinions", thats enough for me, i wish u guys would stop being so corrective about someones feelings/opinions, it's becoming tiresome to have to explain again and again the same thing over and over, as i said: u cannot put a right or wrong to taste, and to me this is ecactly the same.
Burningspear 05-27-07, 08:16 PM	In other words: you can't present facts based off of your opinion, and then try to use those 'facts' to justify your opinion. That's circular logic. thats where u get it wrong, i never stated that the inbred thing was a fact, neither was i debating my opinion as fact, only as feeling, and i was not saying you guys were wrong in your facts. uhuh, thankuverymuch..:uh-huh:
GothicDan 05-27-07, 08:20 PM	u cannot put a right or wrong to taste, and to me this is ecactly the same. You can. If you say, "This is bad because it has cheese in it, and I don't like cheese," but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's cheese in it. Saying, "I don't like the Chosen because they act like they're inbred," tells no one nothing at all, because the definition of inbreeding does not pertain to them. You did not specify anything actual factual on which you based their opinions. And note that El never had any sexual relations with any of the Chosen that he raised. The Simbul was given to the Witches of Rashemen to raise as a babe, I believe. So, which Chosen are acting like they're inbred, and how do you define inbred people to act? You didn't tell us that.
MerrikCale 05-27-07, 08:29 PM	this thread has taken an odd turn. I must say that I am not a big fan of Mystra's chosen or how they are portrayed. But the last thing I would think of is inbred.
Burningspear 05-27-07, 08:45 PM	You can. because you think you can, i am going to stop debating this, this is nonsense imo, u cannot debate taste, you can debate it by yourself and have fun with that. I will stick to my opinion.
Burningspear 05-27-07, 08:46 PM	this thread has taken an odd turn. I must say that I am not a big fan of Mystra's chosen or how they are portrayed. But the last thing I would think of is inbred. Thats your opinion, and i see nothing wrong with that. :)
Karsus the Mad 05-27-07, 08:47 PM	If I may ask, what specifically do you mean by "inbred"? One could say that most of the 7 are inbred magical prodigies. Or that the Chosen behave with an inbred dislike of the Zhents, without any inference to their heritage. Tho' I get the distinct feeling those definitions aren't even being taken into consideration...
The_King_in_Yellow 05-28-07, 06:48 AM	Inbred, you say? Well anything's possible in Ed Greenwood's fantasy porn especially where those seven (*cough* G.M.P.C walking plot devices *cough*) ravishing, vixen-like, sisters are involved. :weep: The baby Jesus wept.
ancalimohtar 05-28-07, 08:50 AM	If you say, "This is bad because it has cheese in it, and I don't like cheese," but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's cheese in it.That's a disingenuous strawman argument. Instead of explaining why, I'll leave you with an example: Imagine if I were to say, "I don't like Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel (of Simpsons fame) because he's a slack-jawed yokel." You would fine fault with this because Cletus is not actually slack-jawed, by a literal definition. His jaw is very firmly shut most of the time. But can you disagree with the sentiment that Cletus is a slack-jawed yokel? That is, an inbred hillbilly? Burningspear feels the same way about your oh-so-beloved characters. He has every right to, and calling what he said downright wrong is downright silly.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 06:17 PM	But can you disagree with the sentiment that Cletus is a slack-jawed yokel? That is, an inbred hillbilly? Yes. (Note: I don't actually watch the Simpsons, so I hope nothing about this particular example is lost on me in transition.) Burningspear feels the same way about your oh-so-beloved characters. I'm actually not a huge fan of most of the Chosen. He has every right to, and calling what he said downright wrong is downright silly. And I think defending what he said is downright silly. :)
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 06:22 PM	Burningspear feels the same way about your oh-so-beloved characters. He has every right to, and calling what he said downright wrong is downright silly. -The point is that an opinion that is based on no factual evidence whatsoever is a "bad", and "inferior" one. Would you agree with me if, presuming I am incorrect, if I said, "ancalimohtar's mother is a *****"? That's an opinion that is based on absolutely no fact. Understand what I mean?
Karsus the Mad 05-28-07, 07:11 PM	that is based on no factual evidence whatsoever That's precisely what an opinion is (in this regard at least), a belief with insufficient factual evidence.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 07:13 PM	No, I would say that's belief! Or maybe faith.
Karsus the Mad 05-28-07, 07:27 PM	No, I would say that's belief! Or maybe faith. opinion n. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: There's several other things that opinion can mean, but of them all, this particular one seems to fit (thus my lil' note above). Burningspear has a belief that's not substaniated by...anything...other than simple confidence.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 07:29 PM	So, like religion! So I can still disagree with and call his opinion wrong. ;)
Karsus the Mad 05-28-07, 07:50 PM	So, like religion! So I can still disagree with and call his opinion wrong. ;) Precisely my good GD, precisely:cool: So long as it's not in statement form! That'd be a declaration that your opinion of his opinion is factual, despite being an opinion without factual evidence of his opinion's incorrectness:mymy:
Burningspear 05-28-07, 08:13 PM	Precisely my good GD, precisely:cool: So long as it's not in statement form! That'd be a declaration that your opinion of his opinion is factual, despite being an opinion without factual evidence of his opinion's incorrectness:mymy: what a load of Bullcrap :D, making a feeling u have about something not based on facts improper by all you guys "logic's" does not make it your right to "dis" my feelings that i seem to have about certain NPC's. A feeling u (or i) have does not need to be based on logic as most seem to preach so vehemently, thats downright nonsense. A taste or feeling does not need to be based on facts, and i will not continue this if u guys keep saying any statement has to be based on conceptual facts, as this is simply untrue.
ancalimohtar 05-28-07, 08:41 PM	Precisely my good GD, precisely:cool: So long as it's not in statement form! That'd be a declaration that your opinion of his opinion is factual, despite being an opinion without factual evidence of his opinion's incorrectness:mymy:There you go.
Karsus the Mad 05-28-07, 08:46 PM	what a load of Bullcrap :D, making a feeling u have about something not based on facts improper by all you guys "logic's" does not make it your right to "dis" my feelings that i seem to have about certain NPC's. A feeling u (or i) have does not need to be based on logic as most seem to preach so vehemently, thats downright nonsense. A taste or feeling does not need to be based on facts, and i will not continue this if u guys keep saying any statement has to be based on conceptual facts, as this is simply untrue. Bolded text I'm not sure if you realize this, but that's precisely what I have been defending:) However, if you feel so strongly about it, perhaps you should follow your own advice then, and don't dis my opinion or my method of expressing it by calling it "bullcrap". Not only is that hypocritical, it's also an improper word conjunction. Anyhoo, I think you misunderstood me, or weren't replying to me despite quoting me. To clarify that whimsical post of mine: Underlined text Yes, a statement (in the manner in which I used in the above that you quoted. The part where I tell Dan so long as it's not in statement form), in order to be a statement (in the manner that I was referring to), must be based on facts. If it's not, then it is not a statement in the manner in which I meant. It is an opinion, which then circles back to precisely what I said iunder "Bolded text". FYI: I'm not being serious. I'm using, as you say, you guys "logic's" , against said logic, in order to provide myself, and anyone who manages to understand me (but primarily myself...I'm a selfish SOB), some ironic entertainment. If you ask me, I agree. Some of the Chosen are inbred hillbillies. The only aspects in which my opinion differs from yours is that I simply proscribe to the litteral definitions of the terms 'inbred' and 'hillbilly' in regards to some of the Chosen without any negative connotations towards the Chosen or their heritage. In other words, I agree with you that they're inbred hillbillies, but I don't agree with you that they're inbred hillbillies in the manner you seem to be suggesting. Oh, yeah, I also agree with you about your opinion not requiring facts (points above, and at above posts).
Burningspear 05-28-07, 08:51 PM	Bolded text I'm not sure if you realize this, but that's precisely what I have been defending:) However, if you feel so strongly about it, perhaps you should follow your own advice then, and don't dis my opinion or my method of expressing it by calling it "bullcrap". Not only is that hypocritcal, it's also an improper word conjunction. Anyhoo, I think you misunderstood me, or weren't replying to me despite quoting me. To clarify that whimsical post of mine: Underlined text Yes, a statement (in the manner in which I used in the above that you quoted. The part where I tell Dan so long as it's not in statement form), in order to be a statement (in the manner that I was referring to), must be based on facts. If it's not, then it is not a statement in the manner in which I meant. It is an opinion, which then circles back to precisely what I said iunder "Bolded text". FYI: I'm not being serious. I'm using, as you say, you guys "logic's" , against said logic, in order to provide myself, and anyone who manages to understand me (but primarily myself...I'm a selfish SOB), some ironic entertainment. If you ask me, I agree. Some of the Chosen are inbred hillbillies. The only aspects in which my opinion differs from yours is that I simply proscribe to the litteral definitions of the terms 'inbred' and 'hillbilly' in regards to some of the Chosen without any negative connotations towards the Chosen or their heritage. In other words, I agree with you that they're inbred hillbillies, but I don't agree with you that they're inbred hillbillies in the manner you seem to be suggesting. Oh, yeah, I also agree with you about your opinion not requiring facts (points above, and at above posts). thanks for at least agreeing. but I don't agree with you that they're inbred hillbillies in the manner you seem to be suggesting. then what is your interpretation of what i was suggesting? :smirk:
Karsus the Mad 05-28-07, 09:05 PM	then what is your interpretation of what i was suggesting? :smirk: I asked first, up in post #134;)
GothicDan 05-28-07, 09:10 PM	A taste or feeling does not need to be based on facts, and i will not continue this if u guys keep saying any statement has to be based on conceptual facts, as this is simply untrue. We never said it "had" to be. We just said that opinions like this were, in our eyes, incorrect and about as communicative as saying, "Lawlz red wizards wear blue." I wouldn't expect anyone to take my opinion seriously if I had no true facts on which to base it. "It is of my opinion that the speed of light is 2E8." That may be my opinion, but it's based on INCORRECT facts. "It is of my opinion that the Chosen are inbred." Same thing. The Chosen are NOT inbred. That is a fact. KtM: The only aspects in which my opinion differs from yours is that I simply proscribe to the litteral definitions of the terms 'inbred' and 'hillbilly' in regards to some of the Chosen without any negative connotations towards the Chosen or their heritage. I don't think asking someone why they have a given opinion is particularly disrespectful. In fact, I'm almost certain we've had similar discussions in the past, and we've been amicable about the topics. ;) Trouble only seems to arise when people don't actually look at facts and use deductive reasoning to draw logical conclusions, and then base their opinions on those conclusions. Then again... I'm nearly militantly Atheist, at this point, so... *Cough.*
Burningspear 05-28-07, 09:24 PM	I asked first, up in post #134;) Yes u did, not that i was intending to answer it...hmmz.. the problem i have explaining why i feel them as inbreds, is because it is based on emotions i get when i read up on the info about the chosen, and how they interact imo. and to define emotions is not easy.... I dont like it how the "wife" of Blackstaff was first raised by him (at least thats what i remember, and even if thats wrong factual based, it still keeps me getting this feeling about them.) and then he eventually married her when she became of age, that sounds sick to me. I do understand immortals tend to stick together, otherwise u would go insane seeing your loved ones die time after time, just like in highlander.. but at least in highlander he does not go for a person he raised from "childhood". thats the bit that makes me feel they r inbreds, even though that title does not fully define their correct factual situation as yet. hope this helps u see what i mean.(though not necessarily agree, as i expect.)
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 09:25 PM	Trouble only seems to arise when people don't actually look at facts and use deductive reasoning to draw logical conclusions, and then base their opinions on those conclusions. -You sound like a Jehova's Witness I hear on my commute to school every so often. How ironic.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 09:55 PM	-You sound like a Jehova's Witness I hear on my commute to school every so often. How ironic. The only difference is I'm actually sincere. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 10:11 PM	-He seems quite sincere in his beliefs, too.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 10:16 PM	Nope. He lies.
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 10:20 PM	-The truth does not dim the sincerity of his beliefs, which is what was in question.
boards 05-28-07, 10:21 PM	...... I dont like it how the "wife" of Blackstaff was first raised by him (at least thats what i remember, and even if thats wrong factual based, it still keeps me getting this feeling about them.) and then he eventually married her when she became of age, that sounds sick to me. Laeral was raised by Elminster not the Kelben. Kelben healed her when she was under the influence of the Crown of Horns but that is about it. The only other two major chosen that are in a relationship are Elminster and the Simbul, and I believe that they did not know each other until she became the Queen of Aglarond (someone correct me if I am wrong). So unless Elminster or Kelbun is related Dornal Silverhand or his wife (which I am sure they are not) then there is no inbreeding happening.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 10:26 PM	I <3 boards. So far, no evidence of any inbreeding or anything resembling inbreeding (no Chosen raising other Chosen just to have relations with that particular Chosen).
GothicDan 05-28-07, 10:26 PM	-The truth does not dim the sincerity of his beliefs, which is what was in question. I question your fitness to rule!
Burningspear 05-28-07, 10:55 PM	So unless Elminster or Kelbun is related Dornal Silverhand or his wife (which I am sure they are not) then there is no inbreeding happening. Big Big SIGH, as i already stated before: I never said that they were actual inbreds!!!!!!!, i only stated that "they make me feel like they are", not "that they actually really are" "inbreds by genetics"!!!!! :blink: :gah: :uh-huh:
boards 05-29-07, 12:35 AM	Ok For you to have formed an feeling like this you must have read something that gives you this "feeling". These are the two major cases that I can think of that may give someone without the corect info this impression. The only other cases that I could concievably see are from The Symbuls Gift, when Alustrials son comes to visit (its not but could see that somebody may possibly see it that way), and in one of Ed's stories (spin a yarn?) where Quilue and one of her sisters are all touchy feely. Outside of these cases, I honestly dont see how people could look at the information and come to the idea that they seem inbred. I'm trying to see you position, truely:) . Perhaps if you can give other points where this feeling comes from.
Zandilar 05-29-07, 12:49 AM	Heya, For you to have formed an feeling like this you must have read something that gives you this "feeling". These are the two major cases that I can think of that may give someone without the corect info this impression. The only other cases that I could concievably see are from The Symbuls Gift, when Alustrials son comes to visit (its not but could see that somebody may possibly see it that way), and in one of Ed's stories (spin a yarn?) where Quilue and one of her sisters are all touchy feely. Outside of these cases, I honestly dont see how people could look at the information and come to the idea that they seem inbred. Sisters, by definition, cannot "inbreed" with one another. Though, there are some situations that could be exceptions, given magic. In any case, incest is not the same as inbreeding... It's been hinted at in places that the incest taboo is not quite the same in the Realms as it is on Earth, by the way... But I can see how that might be best ignored by those who find the idea of it distasteful. Oh, and lastly... There is an argument that could be made that relations between Qilue and any other of the Seven Sisters isn't incest, since Qilue is a completely different race and therefore isn't close enough genetically to be concidered an actual sibling. Qilue's relationship to the other Seven is much like Imoen's relationship to <CHARNAME> in the BG series - what they share in common is the essence of a deity.
boards 05-29-07, 01:22 AM	Hey Zandilar Didnt know about incest taboo not being so taboo in FR. I wasnt putting that post forward as to my feelings, but how I could see that some people could come to this conclusion, especially if they don't differentiate between incest and inbreeding (despite the differences as you mentioned). For Qilue, I am not if I agree with you or not. Her case seems more like a surrogate mother thing. She was conceived by the same parents then transferred to a new person to be born, and somehow changed into a drow; aint magic great. I guess it could go either way with this one.
souldnce9 05-29-07, 02:16 AM	Wow I didn't know any of this about the sisters! Why would they want to be with each other when they are so good looking they could have anyone else. I just hope I look as good as they do when I'm an old lady. Hey can anyone tell me how they live so long anyway? How is it they are 600 and El is over 1000? They definately aren't liches, and I know they aren't Elves. What the heck is the deal? What spells are they using?
boards 05-29-07, 02:33 AM	Uggghhhh. We are not suggesting that the Seven Sisters "want" each other, just that there is writing that could be misinterperated that way. Zandilar is saying (if I can put words in her mouth) that even if Qilue and one of the other sisters did get together it may not be incest due to the circumstances of her birth. The Chosen of Mystra have had a life extension by virtue of the fact that they hold a portion of her power, it is not due to a spell.
souldnce9 05-29-07, 02:47 AM	Oh sorry I got lost in the thread. I thought it seemed a little weird. Damn I'd have to worship Mystra, I don't think Mask would approve of that. Hehehe or Mystra.
GothicDan 05-29-07, 02:55 AM	Or maybe yourself useful to another potent God, and prove your worth to them (and your sincerity). There's LOTS of very dedicated worshippers of Mystra, and only a fraction of a fraction or a percent of a handful are her chosen. :) I think Mask has.. 3 Chosen?
souldnce9 05-29-07, 04:54 AM	hmm. Chosen of Mask! Would that mean I have to become a cleric?
Stigger 05-29-07, 05:39 AM	Now this is one of the stranger threads I've walked into on accident...
Zandilar 05-29-07, 05:47 AM	Heya, Didnt know about incest taboo not being so taboo in FR. edit: sorry I misread what you'd written. *sigh* That'll teach me. :P I wasnt putting that post forward as to my feelings, but how I could see that some people could come to this conclusion, especially if they don't differentiate between incest and inbreeding (despite the differences as you mentioned). I just wanted to highlight that there was a difference. This is probably a topic we should drop, as I can easily see this thread being moved to the "Mature" boards. For Qilue, I am not if I agree with you or not. Her case seems more like a surrogate mother thing. She was conceived by the same parents then transferred to a new person to be born, and somehow changed into a drow; aint magic great. I guess it could go either way with this one. The key here is magic. No matter how she started out, she is no longer related GENETICALLY to her sisters - the magic that changed her into a Drow saw to that.
Zandilar 05-29-07, 05:49 AM	Heya, Zandilar is saying (if I can put words in her mouth) that even if Qilue and one of the other sisters did get together it may not be incest due to the circumstances of her birth. You got it. :) The Chosen of Mystra have had a life extension by virtue of the fact that they hold a portion of her power, it is not due to a spell. The Seven Sisters are immortal because they really should be DvR 0 demigoddesses. (They are, after all, the children of Mystra). The rest of the Chosen have extended life (near immortality) because Mystra wants them to.
boards 05-29-07, 07:19 AM	Zandilar I think I will agree with you on Qilue's genetics and that we should probably drop this topic while we are ahead:)
The_King_in_Yellow 05-29-07, 07:27 AM	Incestuous magical demi - goddesses <Shakes head in wonder>. It's like a horrid amalgamation of adolescent fantasies in a disturbed mind with the worst tendencies of a munchkin power gamer. But I don't care about all that my complaint is whenever The Chosen are involved it reads like a badly scripted soap opera. Trite.
GothicDan 05-29-07, 02:18 PM	A) Chosen are not demigods. B) As we've pointed out numerous times, there's no cases of incest among the Chosen. C) Incest is pretty common in older mythology, and even in older times in general. D) I'd rather play a soap opera than the sort of campaigns a lot of people here, play (not that I'm saying I agree with your stance; El in Hell felt nothing remotely like a soap opera).
Lord Karsus 05-29-07, 04:33 PM	I question your fitness to rule! -Changing the topic doesn't change the fact that the truth does not impact the sincerity of any one individuals beliefs. Take you, for instance. You are a sincere Atheist. You are completely wrong, but that doesn't change your sincerity to the..."cause". I think Mask has.. 3 Chosen? -He has five, but only three of them have been revealed so far. We know that Mask has five Chosen, because Erevis Cale, his primary servitor/Chosen, is the "First of Five", Drasek Riven, and his secondary servitor/Chosen, is the "Second of Five".
The_King_in_Yellow 05-29-07, 05:43 PM	A) Chosen are not demigods. Technically no the seven sisters aren't, but for what difference it makes they might as well be. B) As we've pointed out numerous times, there's no cases of incest among the Chosen. Not directly, but I'm sure it's hinted at, knowing the tendencies of E.G's fantasy porn. C) Incest is pretty common in older mythology, and even in older times in general. Sure about that, don't want to rethink? I think it a fair assumption to make to suppose no noticeable increase or decrease of this type of deviancy throughout history. El in Hell felt nothing remotely like a soap opera. No it didn't, that particular piece of 'literature' stands accused of far more heinous crimes.
Stigger 05-29-07, 07:58 PM	Incest isn't really that uncommon a thing really, historically speaking. A fairly common practice for the nobility of several cultures, going back a very long way. But that's besides the point really.
Burningspear 05-29-07, 08:07 PM	:rofl: And all i did was state what i felt about certain characters be giving them a certain "title" (what emotions arise when i see any written stuff in any books/ magazines, or here in the posts)... not how they would actually be "law"/ true statement-wise (meaning: backed up by facts)...
Old Sage 05-29-07, 08:10 PM	Not directly, but I'm sure it's hinted at, knowing the tendencies of E.G's fantasy porn.Unless you actually have proof, I would suggest you refrain from making these ridiculous statements -- especially in an online FR community like WotC. I've had just about enough of this nonsense. It's an unsupported theory based on nothing more than a few misconceived words and propagated by particular individuals who don't spend the necessary time researching the facts before they make such false claims. Take the time to read through the books, and Ed's comments, and you'll begin to understand just how full of nonsense these ridiculous statements actually are.
Zandilar 05-29-07, 08:14 PM	Heya, I'm not Dan... but I couldn't let this one go. Technically no the seven sisters aren't, but for what difference it makes they might as well be. They should be... But there's nothing wrong with that, is there? Not directly, but I'm sure it's hinted at, knowing the tendencies of E.G's fantasy porn. :ahem: A little more respect, please. Now I have noted one or two tendancies of Ed Greenwood's writing, but he's not the only one guilty of those kinds of things within the Realms. This is solely because Realms fiction is dominated by male writers who adhere to fantasy stereotypes (thus the minimal number of female characters as protagonists, and the large number of male protagonists who end up bonking one of his female followers). As for his writing being Fantasy Porn - only if you read so much into his writing that you distort it to that point. There's subtext, if you're looking for it, but it's not of the pornographic variety. Sure about that, don't want to rethink? I think it a fair assumption to make to suppose no noticeable increase or decrease of this type of deviancy throughout history. It depends on what you're defining incest as. There are still many places in the world where "incest" with first cousins is still legal (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the case in certian states in America). That's sexual relations with the sons or daughters of your father's or mother's brother or sister. This legally unacceptable elsewhere. I'm fairly sure it's unacceptable in Australia - but I'd have to dig to find out. Taking to court two consenting adults for what they've been doing behind closed doors, though, is difficult. There's no actual way to police it, short of someone else dobbing them in. The fact that there's a taboo and stigma against such relations means that people won't tell the truth about it when asked either - that means we have no true statistical information on the issue. So I guess it's hard to say what the prevalence is. I won't comment on history, as I'm sure others more qualified will say something about it.
Burningspear 05-29-07, 08:29 PM	I've had just about enough of this nonsense. It's an unsupported theory based on nothing more than a few misconceived words and propagated by particular individuals who don't spend the necessary time researching the facts before they make such false claims. Nothing was claimed to be 100% like what u are saying now, please refrain from the condescending tone u are taking now..(i am saying this as i feel this is indirectly addressed towards me, this is not to flame you, but to get my point of perception across). I only ever stated the feelings i got when i read up on these characters, i was never stating that they were actual inbreds, just that they made me feel that they "behaved or what not" like such. Getting certain "emotions and feelings" from reading something is never nonsense, it is person based and any individual has different reactions to different things, neither good nor bad imo . I never said what i thought/FELT was factual, the only ppl who asked me to make it factual (witch in my opinion u can't) were GothicDan, and perhaps 1 or 2 others..(can't remember them really of the top of my head.) Take the time to read through the books, and Ed's comments, and you'll begin to understand just how full of nonsense these ridiculous statements actually are. read the above.
souldnce9 05-29-07, 08:57 PM	:ahem: A little more respect, please. Now I have noted one or two tendancies of Ed Greenwood's writing, but he's not the only one guilty of those kinds of things within the Realms. This is solely because Realms fiction is dominated by male writers who adhere to fantasy stereotypes (thus the minimal number of female characters as protagonists, and the large number of male protagonists who end up bonking one of his female followers). Hey I've never paid any attention to that before, but now that you have me thinking about it you are right. :censored: That makes me angry! Maybe that is why I liked Elaine Cunningham's books so much, even though the protagonist was another boring drow! :bored:
Old Sage 05-29-07, 09:10 PM	(i am saying this as i feel this is indirectly addressed towards me...It wasn't indirectly addressed to you BP. Your interpretations are only opinions, and we've discussed how we each feel about them elsewhere. So no worries. ;) The King in Yellow's post suggests that his position is more than mere opinion. Which is why I asked for proof. There isn't any because Ed's works aren't "fantasy porn." These interpretations are almost always either based on poorly conceived opinions, or by posters listening to the misguided interpretations of some others, and utilising it to support their own views -- all without taking the time to read ALL of the material pertaining to the subject in question. There is a difference.
Burningspear 05-29-07, 09:17 PM	It wasn't indirectly addressed to you BP. Your interpretations are only opinions, and we've discussed how we each feel about them elsewhere. So no worries. ;) Ok, just making sure..
GothicDan 05-29-07, 09:22 PM	I'll note that, from the beginning, my intent was to figure out exactly still what gave you the impression of them being inbred. Not necessarily -why-, but what you read (novel or otherwise) that made you think that way. Very often, the line between 'what I think' and 'what I feel' is very thin.
BrennonGoldeye 05-29-07, 10:01 PM	Hmm, don't make me remind everyone that their moms and dads are cousins about 50 times over. Bunch of inbred typing-before-previewing-mouth-breathing-knuckle-dragging-stuntbutted-apes.. Also known as my peeps!:ayyyy!:
Old Sage 05-29-07, 10:30 PM	You have peeps? ;)
Lord Karsus 05-30-07, 12:09 AM	-Yeah...So...How 'bout those powerful wizards, huh?
Stigger 05-30-07, 03:37 AM	I'm in favor of them personally... As to Ed's tendencies in his writing, they are pretty historically accurate in a lot of ways, with much of the nastier social aspects removed. I find it hard to fault him on it... if anything, they show a lot of thought towards imagining how social structures would be different without certain factors that went into making medieval/rennaisance society what it was. Despite perceptions to the contrary in popular culture, it was a very bawdy time period, historically speaking, and that gets reflected in his writing I think.
Lord Karsus 05-30-07, 09:28 AM	-The times were very hypocritical, for a lack of better words, concerning sexuality and all of that.
The_King_in_Yellow 05-30-07, 09:55 AM	The King in Yellow's post suggests that his position is more than mere opinion. Read below the following statement: 'Not directly, but I'm sure it's hinted at, knowing the tendencies of E.G's fantasy porn.' Where in the above have I insinuated that my opinions are more than just that? The first thing any good researcher does is develop a critical eye when reading text in order to establish its context I would have thought you'd know that. Unless you actually have proof, I would suggest you refrain from making these ridiculous statements -- especially in an online FR community like WotC. I've had just about enough of this nonsense. You can suggest all you like because personally I don't give a hoot as to what you have or haven't had enough of. You are not a moderator I would suggest you stop trying to act like one. It's an unsupported theory based on nothing more than a few misconceived words and propagated by particular individuals who don't spend the necessary time researching the facts before they make such false claims. Well if you define unsupported theory and misconceived words as 'In my opinion (and note I repeat: I.M.O, should I really have to begin every statement with this acronym or are we all adult enough to discern discretional inference?) there is an underlying wide ranging sexual sub context running through out most of this author's work enacted through a multitude of faceless cardboard cut out characters'. This to me makes fantasy porn, let me give you an example: Imagine if you will reading about a scene describing a neutral non specific conversation between Alustriel and Laeral, however any identifiers are blanked out, would you honestly be able to distinguish between character A and character B just by how they speak and the mannerisms portrayed? Were as with many more accomplished writers I am confident I'd be able to. It's Fantasy porn (I.M.O). By the way I've noted an unsupported theory in your own statement (see bolded), I think I've read more than enough Ed Greenwood novels to form a strong opinion of them. You seem to be the one construing opinions and passing them off as facts, please provide evidence as to how my statements made to the contrary are false, because as soon as you do that I'll start quoting selective 'risqué' passages from E.G's fantasy porn. They should be... But there's nothing wrong with that, is there? Yes Zandilar, there is. I.M.O it is bad game world design and smacks of OMG! munchkin uberism. From my posts it may seem I'm on an Ed Greenwood vendetta, not so. For what it's worth I think you should know I happen to believe Geneavue, The Stones of Peace was one of the greatest supplements ever written for a fantasy setting (just so you know).
Lord Karsus 05-30-07, 10:04 AM	-Didn't we just go through all of this, in this very thread? -It's not friggin' safe to say anything, anymore.
MaskedOne 05-30-07, 10:28 AM	People, literary analysis competently performed or not is novel discussion and a banned topic, move on.
Old Sage 05-30-07, 10:47 AM	Where in the above have I insinuated that my opinions are more than just that?With the words... "I'm sure." That's not just stating an opinion, that's suggesting you also have facts to support your claims. You don't. You can suggest all you like because personally I don't give a hoot as to what you have or haven't had enough of.You should, because I'm trying to help you understand why such comments aren't considered accurate in terms of actual Realmslore. However, if you're comfortable remaining in your ignorance on this particular subject... I won't trouble you any further. You are not a moderator I would suggest you stop trying to act like one.I'm not acting like a moderator. I'm merely correcting what have been clearly stated to be, by Ed himself I might add, inaccurate opinions based on his work. ... And LK is right. We've been over this before... and I'm tired of it. I'm done here.
BrennonGoldeye 05-30-07, 10:51 AM	'Not directly, but I'm sure it's hinted at, knowing the tendencies of E.G's fantasy porn.' This sentence lost it for you. You just admitted that you have no direct evidence for your opinion, your just "sure it's hinted at", making it about as valid as pointing at a tree and calling it a cow. If you can't see that, oh well. You can suggest all you like because personally I don't give a hoot as to what you have or haven't had enough of. You are not a moderator I would suggest you stop trying to act like one. :smirk: LK, please? ]Well if you define unsupported theory and misconceived words as 'In my opinion (and note I repeat: I.M.O, should I really have to begin every statement with this acronym or are we all adult enough to discern discretional inference?) there is an underlying wide ranging sexual sub context running through out most of this author's work enacted through a multitude of faceless cardboard cut out characters'. This to me makes fantasy porn, let me give you an example: Imagine if you will reading about a scene describing a neutral non specific conversation between Alustriel and Laeral, however any identifiers are blanked out, would you honestly be able to distinguish between character A and character B just by how they speak and the mannerisms portrayed? Were as with many more accomplished writers I am confident I'd be able to. It's Fantasy porn (I.M.O). By the way I've noted an unsupported theory in your own statement (see bolded), I think I've read more than enough Ed Greenwood novels to form a strong opinion of them. You seem to be the one construing opinions and passing them off as facts, please provide evidence as to how my statements made to the contrary are false, because as soon as you do that I'll start quoting selective 'risqué' passages from E.G's fantasy porn I don't think I have heard such a wagonload of dung since LLKN was around. Just one example please Yellow. Just one. One that gives your point just a iota of factuality. Then, and only then, would there be a need to disprove something. I am so tired of IMHO. Yes, everybody has a right to their opinion. Everybody also has a right to smear their own poo all over their body and dance around in their living room singing "Crucify" wearing a leotard. Your lack of ability to understand doesn't concern me. Your pissyness to one of the most helpful folk on this board does. Yes Zandilar, there is. I.M.O it is bad game world design and smacks of OMG! munchkin uberism. Both Munchkinism and Uberism are born of ego, and thereby rest upon the DM's shoulders. -It's not friggin' safe to say anything, anymore. Just PM me LK. You have a reputation to uphold. So do I. *slides on the Gloves of Pwning* People, literary analysis competently performed or not is novel discussion and a banned topic, move on. Good idea Masked.
Lord Karsus 05-30-07, 01:09 PM	People, literary analysis competently performed or not is novel discussion and a banned topic, move on. -Actually, it's not anymore. 'Dox updated the rule, and said that as long as we are all civil about it, it's alright. We are being pretty civil here. But, I know that I for one am going to continue directing all novel discussions to the 'Keep. :smirk: LK, please? :: Look at watch :: -Make it quick. I don't think I have heard such a wagonload of dung since LLKN was around. -They never found his body, did they? Both Munchkinism and Uberism are born of ego, and thereby rest upon the DM's shoulders. -In any setting, it only makes sense that a select few individuals will be at higher levels than the common populace. That is why Eberron just doesn't make sense, when you sit down and think about it, in this regard. Sure, it allows the PCs to feel more special, but it kind of challenges the integrity of the setting.
MaskedOne 05-30-07, 01:33 PM	-Actually, it's not anymore. 'Dox updated the rule, and said that as long as we are all civil about it, it's alright. We are being pretty civil here. But, I know that I for one am going to continue directing all novel discussions to the 'Keep. When did that go active?
Lord Karsus 05-30-07, 02:05 PM	When did that go active? -It's been a de facto rule for a few months, but I'm not sure when it was formally written in. Look at the FR FAQ concerning novel dicsussions.
The_King_in_Yellow 05-30-07, 07:20 PM	I don't think I have heard such a wagonload of dung since LLKN was around. Your pissyness to one of the most helpful folk on this board does. While conveniently ignoring your own, how amusingly ironic…Although I now understand the reasoning behind this leap to the defence, very noble, undoubtedly. It's plain and simple really I take exception at anyone attempting to put words in my mouth. The King in Yellow's post suggests that his position is more than mere opinion. It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. See below and make an educated guess as to which statement is made factually. Is it A) The statement I made: 'Not directly, but I'm sure it's hinted at, knowing the tendencies of E.G's fantasy porn.' Or is it B) The statement I might have made: 'Not directly but it is hinted at'. Stress on I'M, if you're having difficulty I would strongly encourage a course of remedial English classes. The fact is I don't need to provide examples to support this position (But honestly though it would be an easy thing to do, just grabbing one of the books and selecting choice sentences here and there.) because it's my opinion, the impression I get after finishing an F.R novel by this author, in fact if anyone should be providing hard evidence that is antipodal to my view, it is the contributors that claim MY OWN OPINIONS are incorrect, even though how anyone would set about doing this short of having E. Greenwood announce it (He'd be lying:smirk:), is beyond me…Ahhh s*** y'know I can't get it out my head. I've intentionally tried to avoid mentioning it in this post, but it's stuck fast I'm afraid. The other week I was over at Candle Keep skimming over some Q and A from Ed and chanced on some porn (It's not like my hobby or anything, I don't go intentionally hunting for references in the collected works of Ed Greenwood.) This is from his home game and this is just one example bear in mind, the challenge he'd set the P.C's while in Silverymoon was to locate Alustriel. Ah but this was find 'The Chosen' with a difference, this was locate Alustriel in a steam bath in the MIDDLE OF AN ORGY, yes you read that right, in the middle of an orgy, in the middle of a steam bath involving numerous bodies, in my campaigns this would be an 'off camera' type thing, if there was any need to have it happen at all. As you can imagine a poster of my refined sensibilities was profoundly disturbed by this unwanted image conjured in mind and I guarantee you this, that this is 100% true accounted directly from Ed Greenwood directly from his home campaign. I challenge anyone to find that reference in the 'So Sayeth Ed's' IIRC and explain it in terms of anything other than what it clearly is. Because I'm really not pointing to a tree and calling it a cow and would ask others to grow beyond the 'rampant fan-boy-ism', to take a step back and take another look. I'm not on an anti F.R sentiment in fact I think aside from my more regular favourite campaign world there's still this appeal to the Forgotten Realms with its intrigues, mysteries and hidden wonders that keeps me coming back every now and then, I just think it a shame that cases like this and the 'uberocity' of certain characters spoil the setting as a whole.
Zandilar 05-30-07, 07:23 PM	Heya, Well if you define unsupported theory and misconceived words as 'In my opinion (and note I repeat: I.M.O, should I really have to begin every statement with this acronym or are we all adult enough to discern discretional inference?) there is an underlying wide ranging sexual sub context running through out most of this author's work enacted through a multitude of faceless cardboard cut out characters'. I agree with the sexual subtext point - and sometimes it's not just sexual subtext, but sexist sexual subtext. However, as this is subjective - I doubt I could find examples people will agree with me on. I don't agree that the characters are all cardboard cutouts. That really depends on the author, some writers are better at characterization than others. This to me makes fantasy porn, let me give you an example: Imagine if you will reading about a scene describing a neutral non specific conversation between Alustriel and Laeral, however any identifiers are blanked out, would you honestly be able to distinguish between character A and character B just by how they speak and the mannerisms portrayed? Were as with many more accomplished writers I am confident I'd be able to. It's Fantasy porn (I.M.O). I'd take you up on reproducing a part of a Realms novel (Greenwood, probably out of Silverfall to be as close to your example as possible - I don't think we'll find a neutral non-specific conversation, unfortunately, since most characterisation in a novel happens in the context of the plot... kind of hard to do it otherwise) and blanking out the names and seeing if anyone could guess who was who - but there are two problems with that I see immediately. First of all, it's probably not a good idea to reprint an entire scene from a novel on these forums (or at least enough for this experiement to work)... Second of all, the number of Realms fans who would either have read the novel or have it in their collections to refer to, means that nearly anyone on this forum would be capable of identifying the characters - cardboard cutouts or not. ;) Yes Zandilar, there is. I.M.O it is bad game world design and smacks of OMG! munchkin uberism. From my posts it may seem I'm on an Ed Greenwood vendetta, not so. For what it's worth I think you should know I happen to believe Geneavue, The Stones of Peace was one of the greatest supplements ever written for a fantasy setting (just so you know). Why? The Seven Sisters aren't PCs. They shouldn't have an active role in any DMs game, unless there's an accord between DM and players - I have played in games where some of the major NPCs were major players, and they worked just fine and didn't overshadow the PCs at all... I have also played in games where they didn't figure at all beyond tavern gossip. I guess it all depends on the DM. I have powerful NPCs in my own homebrewed worlds, and they make sense in the context of the world. It's not like I sat down and decided one day that I'd make up these powerful NPCs just to stroke my ego. Those characters were in the world from day one, and have evolved and changed ever since. (If you want a look at one of them, I entered one recently in the Master Storyteller Competition #6 here: Sylvia (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12452066&postcount=17). This is her current incarnation, and is a touch less powerful than she used to be... As I've grown as a DM/writer the need for high stats has lessened. :)) You also forget that many of these so-called "uber" NPCs were developed as novel style characters first, DnD NPCs second.
Zandilar 05-30-07, 07:37 PM	Heya, Ahhh s*** y'know I can't get it out my head. I've intentionally tried to avoid mentioning it in this post, but it's stuck fast I'm afraid. The other week I was over at Candle Keep skimming over some Q and A from Ed and chanced on some porn (It's not like my hobby or anything, I don't go intentionally hunting for references in the collected works of Ed Greenwood.) This is from his home game and this is just one example bear in mind, the challenge he'd set the P.C's while in Silverymoon was to locate Alustriel. Ah but this was find 'The Chosen' with a difference, this was locate Alustriel in a steam bath in the MIDDLE OF AN ORGY, yes you read that right, in the middle of an orgy, in the middle of a steam bath involving numerous bodies, in my campaigns this would be an 'off camera' type thing, if there was any need to have it happen at all. As you can imagine a poster of my refined sensibilities was profoundly disturbed by this unwanted image conjured in mind and I guarantee you this, that this is 100% true accounted directly from Ed Greenwood directly from his home campaign. I challenge anyone to find that reference in the 'So Sayeth Ed's' IIRC and explain it in terms of anything other than what it clearly is. Because I'm really not pointing to a tree and calling it a cow and would ask others to grow beyond the 'rampant fan-boy-ism', to take a step back and take another look. I'm not on an anti F.R sentiment in fact I think aside from my more regular favourite campaign world there's still this appeal to the Forgotten Realms with its intrigues, mysteries and hidden wonders that keeps me coming back every now and then, I just think it a shame that cases like this and the 'uberocity' of certain characters spoil the setting as a whole. Sheesh... Where to start with this? First of all, it was in his home campaign. It happened with consenting adults gathered around his gaming table - it did not appear in a novel. Therefore you can't use this to support your claims about Realms novels. Second of all, you think that's bad? I could regale you with tales of some of the games I've played in that are... well let's just say that finding Alustriel in the middle of an orgy in a steam bath is tame by comparison. Third of all, at this point I should probably ask how old you are, but that might seem insulting. I don't mean to insult you, but I found this breathtaking in it's strangeness (the idea that sex between consenting adults disturbs anyone, disturbs me). If they had to find Alustriel in the middle of a battle in the middle of a war, would you have had this problem? I don't think so.
Stigger 05-30-07, 07:53 PM	Really tame compared to some of the stuff I've done in games... WoD ones in particular. Besides, if you look at the context of it, it was done in humor just to mess with his players heads... its all about the context.
The_King_in_Yellow 05-30-07, 08:12 PM	First of all, it was in his home campaign. It happened with consenting adults gathered around his gaming table - it did not appear in a novel. Therefore you can't use this to support your claims about Realms novels. I'm not specifically targetting the novels per se, I'm trying to approach from different angles to provide an overall opinion of my impressions of how I see the Forgotten Realms slanted. Realistically this type of thing can happen but would happen off camera in my campaigns, I don't think there's any reason to include descriptions of it occuring and would feel very uncomfortable at the gaming table having it mentioned by a D.M in polite society, followed by me dropping out of that gaming group never to be seen again. Third of all, at this point I should probably ask how old you are, but that might seem insulting. I don't mean to insult you, but I found this breathtaking in it's strangeness (the idea that sex between consenting adults disturbs anyone, disturbs me). If they had to find Alustriel in the middle of a battle in the middle of a war, would you have had this problem? I don't think so. I don't mind at all Zandilar, I'm 31 years old and I don't think it's strange. I think everyone has their own idea of what is acceptable and what should be tolerated. I can't find any similarities in the comparison you have made and that I think is all I have to say on the matter.
souldnce9 05-30-07, 08:21 PM	Hey everyone! *reaches over and covers The_King_in_Yellow's ears* *whispers* My mother works over at the Sleeping Wench in Waterdeep. She just told me that they started having a Ladies Night on the 6th of every Ten Day. I hear they have ol' Wulfgar entertaining on the 3rd week of Flamerule this year. Special appearance! Don't miss it ladies! *releases Yellow's ears and ruffles his hair*
GothicDan 05-30-07, 08:44 PM	... Wulfgar? *Perks up.*
Zandilar 05-30-07, 10:26 PM	Heya, I don't mind at all Zandilar, I'm 31 years old and I don't think it's strange. I think everyone has their own idea of what is acceptable and what should be tolerated. I'm 35, so not that much older than you. I seem to have come to a different conclusion about what's acceptable and tollerable. Graphic depictions of violence and death are far more offensive to me than graphic depictions of people having sex. I can't find any similarities in the comparison you have made and that I think is all I have to say on the matter. I think it's quite a valid comparison, because there does seem to be a double standard - one that I have a hard time grasping, I might add. Why is sex that much more offensive than violence? I could ask it more graphically but here - why is someone dying of wounds less offensive than someone in the throes of pleasure?
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 12:30 AM	-While it's neither here nor there, and is not supporting anyone's argument, I do think that in his replies at least, Ed and THO bring up sexuality a little too often, when it need not even be mentioned. :: Shrugs ::
souldnce9 05-31-07, 04:03 AM	Because we live in a society of prudes Zandilar. :( Although I don't have a problem with violence (in fiction) either, I definately agree with you. My group doesn't have many sexual themes, and none during game play. I don't think it is because we have a problem with it though; Just don't think about it. I think I'm gonna introduce something though. Maybe my character will find a lover. Ha, I'm in Mithral Hall, didn't Wulfgar lose his wife to orcs or was she saved? I can't remember. :inlove: Oh and don't worry! I'm not the jealous type. He'll still be in the Sleeping Wench in Flamerule!
Zandilar 05-31-07, 05:10 AM	Heya, -While it's neither here nor there, and is not supporting anyone's argument, I do think that in his replies at least, Ed and THO bring up sexuality a little too often, when it need not even be mentioned. :: Shrugs :: Well, given that some of the questions I've asked Ed deal directly with sex and sexuality in the Realms, I kind of expect that in my answers. Sure, THO can be suggestive at times (and some posters really do encourage her in this), but Ed's answers only touch on sex/sexuality when they have to. I honestly don't want to see either of them driven away because some people are just... well... prudes.
The_King_in_Yellow 05-31-07, 05:45 AM	To all the people in this thread who have at least acknowledge an unwarranted focus on sexual content in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, I would say thank you. At least it's not just me and as I'm sure I'm not the first person to draw attention to it. I don't think it prudish because let's put this in context and it tentatively relates to another thread on this sub forum I read recently to my dismay. Here's the question. What should be considered priority information to you from a D.M's perspective? Is it: A) The most recent dalliance's of the High Lady Alustriel. OR B) The approximate height of the Desertmouth mountain range, say for example. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=854443 Option B is a fundamental in my opinion. Or maybe it's just me coming from the standards set by my preferred campaign setting. Option A has its place to an extent when said character gives the impression of being a fully realized, well developed real personality. In this case and many others it doesn't and this is my definition of fantasy porn.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 06:46 AM	:zzz: powerful wizards..... :zzz: list........ :zzz: elves....... :zzz: unwarrented sex.... :zzz: lucky........ :zzz: You know! You elves are lucky you don't have to sleep. I'm jealous! :P Although you are missing out on dreams! For instance I just had one where I was Alustriel. There was this hot tub, and............. well lets just say it was unwarrented, but very fun. I sure would like to play in a campaign with Ed DMing! Hey King in Yellow are you referring to Novels or games run by Ed? I thought it was novels at first, but now you are talking about Ed's little "adventure."
Zandilar 05-31-07, 08:33 AM	Heya, To all the people in this thread who have at least acknowledge an unwarranted focus on sexual content in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, I would say thank you. At least it's not just me and as I'm sure I'm not the first person to draw attention to it. I don't think it prudish because let's put this in context and it tentatively relates to another thread on this sub forum I read recently to my dismay. Unwarrented? In your opinion, maybe. Sex and sexuality underlies pretty much ever aspect of society, since we are (nearly) all sexual creatures (yes, I acknoledge the existence of asexual people, but even they have a sexuality - asexual)... By extention this would apply to any fantasy world (sex being a prerequisite for reproduction and all). Here's the question. What should be considered priority information to you from a D.M's perspective? Is it: A) The most recent dalliance's of the High Lady Alustriel. OR B) The approximate height of the Desertmouth mountain range, say for example. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=854443 As a DM I can honestly say that neither is a priority for me. Alustriel's latest dalliance is irrelevant to my PCs (unless they are her latest dalliance! ;)), and no one on Faerun could give an accurate figure on the height of the Desertmouth Mountian range (since when did ranges have heights? I thought that was individual mountians - and all right, I conceed that there are probably scholars who would know an approximate figure (as close to exact as magic and limited technology can get, anyway), but I fail to understand why it would be so important... see below). Option B is a fundamental in my opinion. Or maybe it's just me coming from the standards set by my preferred campaign setting. Option A has its place to an extent when said character gives the impression of being a fully realized, well developed real personality. In this case and many others it doesn't and this is my definition of fantasy porn. Option B is fundamental? How much use is it to your PCs to know exactly how tall, in feet, the tallest mountian in the Desertmouth mountian range is? Sure, you can then more accurately describe the effects of climbing up to the top of it... But why would they do that? A dragon living on top? Do we really need to worry about these kinds of things in a world of magic, whose physics work fundamentally differently to Earth's? How do we know what kinds of effect high altitudes have on an adventurers in this particularly not-Earth world? Or do we ignore these little details and just get on with the game and let the adventurers fight the nasty white dragon - maybe in winter gear, since it is cold on top of mountians?
Stigger 05-31-07, 10:03 AM	Think they're both kinda useless... but at least with the Alustriel bit we get more insight into a NPC, rather than something I'm never going to use. As to the rest of it, I'm pretty much in agreement with Zandilar.
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 11:31 AM	Well, given that some of the questions I've asked Ed deal directly with sex and sexuality in the Realms, I kind of expect that in my answers. -Well, that, duh! I have no problem with that. ;) Sure, THO can be suggestive at times (and some posters really do encourage her in this), but Ed's answers only touch on sex/sexuality when they have to. I honestly don't want to see either of them driven away because some people are just... well... prudes. -Like I said, I find it a little unneccesary when, while talking about Rasheman during the winter, THO starts talking about her nipples, or when talking about Elven facial hair, Ed talks about Elven public hair, though in the latter case, while not the exact question, it was valid to say.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 12:04 PM	LK's one of them there conservatives. He finds almost no sexual talk appropriate. ;) I'm a dirty homosexual. More sex plz.
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 02:13 PM	-I have no real problem with sexual talk, so long as it's the appropriate time and/or place. Like I said, I don't think that discussing THO's nipples is appropriate while talking about Rasheman's flora. Unless, of course, nipples grow on trees. In that case...
souldnce9 05-31-07, 02:41 PM	I suppose the ladies won't mind you showing up for Wulfgar's tease GothicDan. I was wondering, I know I'll probly sound stupid, who is THO? And when was he/she talking about Elven nipples? If it is a novel, which one? You have peeked my interest! :D Sex is the spice of novels and stories. The height of a mountain range is the spice of........... text books! :zzz:
Karsus the Mad 05-31-07, 04:20 PM	powerful wizards..... list........ elves....... unwarrented sex.... lucky........ Srinshee and Eltargrim. Two powerful elven mages who'd make me feel very lucky indeed:cloud9:
The_King_in_Yellow 05-31-07, 04:43 PM	Right then so...Is it my understanding the general consensus is topographical information (such as height above sea level) isn't important or useful to the D.M? Right, right...ummm carry on then, as you were. <Sly glance around this thread> "LOOK! LOOK! IT'S THE POSTER ALSO KNOWN AS BURNINGSPEAR CALLING THE CHOSEN INBRED!" <While everyone's attention is distracted TKIY slips out the back door of this thread, never to be seen again shouting "Give me K.O.K or give me death!"> :smirk:
Burningspear 05-31-07, 04:59 PM	Right then so...Is it my understanding the general consensus is topographical information (such as height above sea level) isn't important or useful to the D.M? Right, right...ummm carry on then, as you were. <Sly glance around this thread> "LOOK! LOOK! IT'S THE POSTER ALSO KNOWN AS BURNINGSPEAR CALLING THE CHOSEN INBRED!" <While everyone's attention is distracted TKIY slips out the back door of this thread, never to be seen again shouting "Give me K.O.K or give me death!"> :smirk: :rofl: :pbbbtt: :rant: :heehee
GothicDan 05-31-07, 05:02 PM	I suppose the ladies won't mind you showing up for Wulfgar's tease GothicDan. As long as I get to take him home afterwards... He's exactly my type. Well, aesthetically, at least. Right then so...Is it my understanding the general consensus is topographical information (such as height above sea level) isn't important or useful to the D.M? Right, right...ummm carry on then, as you were. <Sly glance around this thread> It's useful. Just not as useful as stuff about NPCs and societies, and cultural standards and norms, and the like.
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 05:03 PM	...shouting "Give me K.O.K or give me death!"> :smirk: -Don't pronounce that phonetically... I was wondering, I know I'll probly sound stupid, who is THO? And when was he/she talking about Elven nipples? If it is a novel, which one? -THO is The Hooded One, one of the players in Ed Greenwood's D&D campaigns. She appears over at Candlekeep, bringing our questions to Ed, and then posting his responses. The particular thing I was referencing was THO talking about her nipples, not Elven nipples. As far as I know, Elven nipples are not discussed in any of Ed's replies, nor are they talked about in any novels. I do recall a scene in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, the first book, The Summoning, when Valas grabs Galaeron's..."package".
souldnce9 05-31-07, 05:08 PM	As long as I get to take him home afterwards... He's exactly my type. Well, aesthetically, at least. Now you're pushing it buddy! :pbbbtt: I called dibs! -THO is The Hooded One, one of the players in Ed Greenwood's D&D campaigns. She appears over at Candlekeep, bringing our questions to Ed, and then posting his responses. The particular thing I was referencing was THO talking about her nipples, not Elven nipples. As far as I know, Elven nipples are not discussed in any of Ed's replies, nor are they talked about in any novels. I do recall a scene in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, the first book, The Summoning, when Valas grabs Galaeron's..."package". *Sigh* Oh well!
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 05:20 PM	-Hmm... *sigh* Describe all you want, but please please have consideration for the readers who do not at all appreciate "lewdness" in this board. I am one of them. It would seem that now and again, this unfortunately happens. So please THO, I would truly appreciate it if you make an effort in this regard. I'm prolly a minority here, but all the same... please accomodate me. Thank you, in advance, for your consideration. -That, and, Dan, my question still hasn't been answered, or even mentioned. I'm going to give it a few more days...
GothicDan 05-31-07, 05:38 PM	It would be really weird for Ed to have some sort of vendetta against you or something, LK. I'm sure there's a logical explanation for it. What it is, I'm not sure! That being said... I think THO should say whatever she wants. It's sort of largely "her thread" over there. Unless it's breaking the CoC in some way, it should be allowed. On the other hand, if it is, as much as I don't personally mind the anecdotes (and yes, I find the idea of naked females not only 'uncomfortable' but downright nauseating - nothing ethical about it, just purely personal taste), I would say that she should obey the CoC just like any other poster.
Burningspear 05-31-07, 05:42 PM	On the other hand, if it is, as much as I don't personally mind the anecdotes (and yes, I find the idea of naked females not only 'uncomfortable' but downright nauseating - nothing ethical about it, just purely personal taste), I would say that she should obey the CoC just like any other poster. :rofl: Any nakedness is just a form of what nature is/ was, that humanity hides in clothing does not mean it is "natural", hehe, lol, but i can understand the personal taste thing, and i do not blame you for it ;)
GothicDan 05-31-07, 05:46 PM	Also note that I don't believe something being natural is an ethical justification that it is 'right,' nor is something unnatural 'wrong.' I hate using that as an argument. To me, what is 'natural' is merely what randomly happened to occur. Assuming this is 'right' is assuming a preternatural determinism that is in some way sentient and innately 'correct.' I'm an atheist, so you can guess how much that means to me. By the same token, I don't use the argument that "homosexuality is natural" to make people try to accept it. It IS natural, but so what? That wasn't really aimed to contradict you, Burning (I'll contradict you on other threads!), but it just sparked off a pet peeve in my own mind.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 06:31 PM	(and yes, I find the idea of naked females not only 'uncomfortable' but downright nauseating - nothing ethical about it, just purely personal taste) :weep: This makes me sad. I could see you not attracted to the female body, but they make you sick? :weep: I actually agree that it is perhaps best not to have sexual content on the threads simply because not everyone here is going to be an adult. Parents might not like their children reading it.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 06:40 PM	Pft. I was being lewd when I was 10 years old and I turned out fine. ;) Watch out for Zanan. She's being all Lolthite.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 06:46 PM	Yeah well I wouldn't argue with that. :D But you might as well respect the parents wishes. I for one don't want any trouble. :plotting: I only cause trouble when I can't be caught.
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 08:13 PM	It would be really weird for Ed to have some sort of vendetta against you or something, LK. I'm sure there's a logical explanation for it. What it is, I'm not sure! -I don't think it's Ed...I do have a theory, though, that I'll share with you, if you want. That being said... I think THO should say whatever she wants. It's sort of largely "her thread" over there. Unless it's breaking the CoC in some way, it should be allowed. -Does Candlekeep have a CoC? Heh, I guess it has to, but I never really thought about it having one, you know? Watch out for Zanan. She's being all Lolthite. -Strange, as she is a Kiaransaleean. :: Wants to say something about Lolth being the one true deity of the Drow, but refrains from doing so ::
GothicDan 05-31-07, 08:47 PM	-I don't think it's Ed...I do have a theory, though, that I'll share with you, if you want. Go ahead. In PM, of course. Or AIM, which I'm always on, and you never are. :(
Old Sage 05-31-07, 09:24 PM	You're on AIM GD? I'll have to make a note of your address...
GothicDan 05-31-07, 09:24 PM	I'm on AIM almost constantly during the summer (and during the school year, but very often I'm working while online, then). I'm on right now. :)
Old Sage 05-31-07, 09:29 PM	-Does Candlekeep have a CoC? Heh, I guess it has to, but I never really thought about it having one, you know?Candlekeep does indeed have a Code of Conduct, since I helped to write it. And THO's antics are mainly for fun. And we've both talked together, in Ed's scroll at Candlekeep, about what can and can't be shared at Candlekeep with regard to some of her more "creative sexual" discussions -- remembering always that children may in fact be reading through some of the content shared in the library. She's happy with it.
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 11:09 PM	Candlekeep does indeed have a Code of Conduct, since I helped to write it. -Well, it's good that violations are few in between.
MerrikCale 06-02-07, 09:09 AM	To all the people in this thread who have at least acknowledge an unwarranted focus on sexual content in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, I would say thank you. I agree with you, at least with regards to E.G.'s fiction. So you're welcome.
MerrikCale 06-02-07, 09:20 AM	As long as I get to take him home afterwards... He's exactly my type. Well, aesthetically, at least. I'm disappointed in you GD. I would think as a gay physicist, you would go for the brainy guys. Or Bruenor. As for the importance of the exact height of mountain, I gotta say thats low of the priority list.
GothicDan 06-02-07, 11:36 AM	I'm disappointed in you GD. I would think as a gay physicist, you would go for the brainy guys. Or Bruenor. I'm logical. That means that I logically choose mates according to their suitability to a given topic of interest. If I wanted an actual companion, I'd go for brainy. If I want someone to get all hot and bothered with, I go for appearance. I'm actually not all that upset at the idea of one-night-stands (even in formal relationships). I really despise the modern notions of 'relationships,' 'marriage,' 'love,' and the like. I think they're all incredibly artificial and have 300 tons of cultural (and thus, very often, religious) dogma piled unnecessarily atop them. Beautfiul is beautiful. Psychological studies have proven that, within a given ethnicity, certain characteristics are almost universally sought after in terms of just aesthetic beauty. Biologically speaking (and thus, neurologically), things like symmetry of the face, proper spacing of eyes, proper bone structure, a healthy musculature, etc. are all considered 'physically optimial breeding material,' 'most likely to be able to protect and care for me and/or my offspring.' The fact that modern society has tried to use haughty, supposedly 'enlightened' dogma to erase the truth of aesthetic appeal kind of disgusts me. ... That being said, I'm going out in a few minutes to buy new clothes and those protein drinks of mine. And maybe get a piercing. As for the importance of the exact height of mountain, I gotta say thats low of the priority list. Especially if you have wings!
GothicDan 06-02-07, 11:38 AM	I agree with you, at least with regards to E.G.'s fiction. So you're welcome. I think about sex or at least sexual innuendo almost constantly. That could be because I'm not only a male, but also homosexual; Queer as Folk tells us that gay males think about sex even more often than straight ones. ;) I wish more fantasy authors didn't shy away from such topics so much (though I don't want them to devolve all into LKH, either).
MerrikCale 06-02-07, 01:09 PM	I think about sex or at least sexual innuendo almost constantly. That could be because I'm not only a male, but also homosexual; Queer as Folk tells us that gay males think about sex even more often than straight ones. ;) Speaking as a straight, married man with two young kids, there is little chance you think about sex more than me. As for EG, I always equated him to El, and his El's character is very horny old man. Now, that just disturbs me
The_King_in_Yellow 06-02-07, 01:15 PM	As for EG, I always equated him to El, and his El's G.M.P.character is very horny old man. Now, that just disturbs me Fixed. And there you have uncovered the foundation of the inherent nature of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. :rolleyes:
souldnce9 06-02-07, 03:55 PM	I fail to see the problem with sexuality in fiction!! Who cares if El's G.M.P. character is a horny old man, because that is just it, he is a character. Alustriel is having orgies, Drizzt is sleeping with Cattie, Liriel with Fyodor, Aurthor with his sister, who cares. These things give these characters flavor. It happens in real life and is one of the more pleasurable activities indulged in (gaming coming in a close second :D )! I don't know about you guys I use gaming to escape the humdrum of life, not the better parts of it. Not to say my gaming sessions are porn fests. So far I have yet to see any one of you prudes :P describe to me an actual porn description in any of the novels. So far the closest I have heard is Alustriel's orgy (not a novel), which again I doubt was described in detail, probably more in humorous fun. Lighten up!!!! (BTW Thanks to this discusion, I joined an orgy in my modern campaign last night! Hehehehehe! :rofl: It fit the character well! No it wasn't described in detail, it was just part of the fun. :rolleye2: )
Karsus the Mad 06-02-07, 04:04 PM	I'm logical. That means that I logically choose mates according to their suitability to a given topic of interest. If I wanted an actual companion, I'd go for brainy. If I want someone to get all hot and bothered with, I go for appearance. I'm actually not all that upset at the idea of one-night-stands (even in formal relationships). I really despise the modern notions of 'relationships,' 'marriage,' 'love,' and the like. I think they're all incredibly artificial and have 300 tons of cultural (and thus, very often, religious) dogma piled unnecessarily atop them. Beautfiul is beautiful. Psychological studies have proven that, within a given ethnicity, certain characteristics are almost universally sought after in terms of just aesthetic beauty. Biologically speaking (and thus, neurologically), things like symmetry of the face, proper spacing of eyes, proper bone structure, a healthy musculature, etc. are all considered 'physically optimial breeding material,' 'most likely to be able to protect and care for me and/or my offspring.' The fact that modern society has tried to use haughty, supposedly 'enlightened' dogma to erase the truth of aesthetic appeal kind of disgusts me. Preach preach preach!:teach:
MerrikCale 06-02-07, 04:26 PM	I fail to see the problem with sexuality in fiction!! Who cares if El's G.M.P. character is a horny old man, because that is just it, he is a character. Alustriel is having orgies, Drizzt is sleeping with Cattie, Liriel with Fyodor, Aurthor with his sister, who cares. These things give these characters flavor. It happens in real life and is one of the more pleasurable activities indulged in (gaming coming in a close second :D )! I don't know about you guys I use gaming to escape the humdrum of life, not the better parts of it. Not to say my gaming sessions are porn fests. So far I have yet to see any one of you prudes :P describe to me an actual porn description in any of the novels. So far the closest I have heard is Alustriel's orgy (not a novel), which again I doubt was described in detail, probably more in humorous fun. Lighten up!!!! (BTW Thanks to this discusion, I joined an orgy in my modern campaign last night! Hehehehehe! :rofl: It fit the character well! No it wasn't described in detail, it was just part of the fun. :rolleye2: ) I don't mind sexuality at all, but in some of the examples you have cited, it seems forced and not necessary or even relevant to the story.
GothicDan 06-02-07, 06:03 PM	How many times did you have sex when it was 'relevant to the story of your life'? That's not the kind of books that Ed writes, it seems - not always, at least. Sometimes, the best novels are just portrayals of PEOPLE and not necessarily 'stories.' Preach preach preach! Merrik provoked it. :p As for EG, I always equated him to El, and his El's character is very horny old man. TSR asked him to write in the persona of El a lot, so you equate him with El a lot. While that's a perfectly understandable first impression, I see no reason to feel such a thing when looking further into the situation at hand. But that's just me. I believe the majority of things that people do aren't particularly the best things to do. ;)
Lord Karsus 06-02-07, 07:44 PM	I don't mind sexuality at all, but in some of the examples you have cited, it seems forced and not necessary or even relevant to the story. -Agreed, more or less. (BTW Thanks to this discusion, I joined an orgy in my modern campaign last night! Hehehehehe! :rofl:) -Uh...Glad we could help.
Old Sage 06-02-07, 08:14 PM	TSR asked him to write in the persona of El a lot, so you equate him with El a lot. While that's a perfectly understandable first impression, I see no reason to feel such a thing when looking further into the situation at hand.Indeed. Anyone who actually assumes such a position would seem to be under the mistaken impression that Elminster is Ed's *pet* character in the Realms. He is not. Both Ed and the Lady Hooded One at Candlekeep have, repeatedly, made this quite clear. Consider this, directly from Ed:- "No, of course not. WotC authors are often asked to provide “sell copy” for book jackets, though it NEVER reaches print un-tinkered-with, but in the old TSR days, writers were rarely invited to do so. I had never seen that blurb until a copy of the book was brought to me for signing at a convention, and I certainly never wrote a word of it. No, I have never said Elminster is my “alter ego.” TSR has, many times; a practice that began in GenCon pre-registration blurb booklets, describing the seminars I did in costume, acting the part of Elminster - - ALSO a practice TSR asked me to begin and carry on. When they, many years later, asked me to leave the costume at home, I happily did so. Those robes are hot. :} To reiterate: I have never, ever said that Elminster is my alter ego or wish fulfillment character, or thought that way for one minute. I will never use any Realms characters in that manner, because doing so would ruin the whole fun of creating the world and its characters, and watching what happens and how they evolve. Just as all of the gamers who have played various PC adventurers in my Realms sessions over the years are playing roles, not themselves. So saith Ed. Who will return with regular Realmslore about ten hours from now, if he stays on schedule. love, THO"
MerrikCale 06-02-07, 09:15 PM	TSR asked him to write in the persona of El a lot, so you equate him with El a lot. While that's a perfectly understandable first impression, I see no reason to feel such a thing when looking further into the situation at hand. you assume that once you delve deeper into the situation, its different. I'm not sure thats true.
GothicDan 06-02-07, 10:19 PM	Well, we have Ed's words on it, and so far TSR and WotC hasn't denied it. Look at the quote that Sage posted. What reason do you have to think he's lying? Anything without suggestion is a direct attack on his character (and without any actual evidence backing it up, I wouldn't want to do that to any author or designer).
MerrikCale 06-02-07, 10:54 PM	Well, we have Ed's words on it, and so far TSR and WotC hasn't denied it. Look at the quote that Sage posted. What reason do you have to think he's lying? Anything without suggestion is a direct attack on his character (and without any actual evidence backing it up, I wouldn't want to do that to any author or designer). I would not accuse the man of lying. I've never met him, how would I begin to know. However, he is an author and a creator of characters, and I would think some of it is "self". Which is and which isn't, is the question?
GothicDan 06-02-07, 11:29 PM	I'm sure it IS self, to a point. But I think there's some 'self' in EVERY aspect of FR as far as Ed's concerned. :)
MerrikCale 06-02-07, 11:43 PM	I'm sure it IS self, to a point. But I think there's some 'self' in EVERY aspect of FR as far as Ed's concerned. :) Perhaps you're right. Anyway, I guess we can't discuss EG's merits as a novelist on these boards.
GothicDan 06-02-07, 11:46 PM	True, true. Sorry. :)
MerrikCale 06-02-07, 11:49 PM	True, true. Sorry. :) we would probably disagree anyway
Lord Karsus 06-02-07, 11:54 PM	-Of all his characters, I actually think that Dūdonahorz displays the most 'self'. Gotta love that Dūdonahorz...
The_King_in_Yellow 06-03-07, 05:15 AM	Hmmm, I wonder if Elminster accompanied the P.C's on quests in Ed Greenwood's home game... Y'know I know what is now, the more F.R novels (hence more focus on 'celebrity skin') that are written the less I like the campaign setting.
Krash 06-03-07, 05:48 AM	I've always wondered why people don't identify Ed with Piergeiron the Paladinson. After all, he created him too and has written about him in sourcebooks and novels ... :confused: -- George Krashos
souldnce9 06-03-07, 05:54 AM	You need to find yourself a girl mate. Or perhaps the reason you practice three hours a day is that you already found one, and are otherwise incapable of wooing said strumpet. You're not a eunuch are you? ~Jack Sparrow :inlove:
Karsus the Mad 06-03-07, 07:42 AM	I've always wondered why people don't identify Ed with Piergeiron the Paladinson. After all, he created him too and has written about him in sourcebooks and novels ... :confused: -- George Krashos Or Larloch, Halaster, the Simbul, any other Chosen, Mirt, or any other of the vast characters that occupy the Realms... I think it's the beard...
Lord Karsus 06-03-07, 05:49 PM	I think it's the beard... -And, what a beard it is.
Karsus the Mad 06-03-07, 07:15 PM	-And, what a beard it is. Isn't it? I think it's cute. I have a Khelben beard going on at the moment, white stripe and all. Makes me feel old...maybe I should shave...
Lord Karsus 06-03-07, 11:21 PM	-Yuck.
Karsus the Mad 06-04-07, 07:24 AM	-Yuck. It's not yuck, it's hot:D Well, not beard really, goatee. A bit scraggly at the moment tho'.
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 10:42 AM	-If you say so. Who is this aspect to question?
Stigger 06-04-07, 04:41 PM	I usually thought of Volo as his biggest alter ego funnily enough... maybe it was the whole tourguide thing.