Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zousha_Omenohu 06-12-07, 02:10 AM	First off, I'll admit I don't know much about the Realms outside of what little in the Campaign setting book that I actually paid attention to while reading it and what I know from the games I've played based on it, otherwise I wouldn't be asking a most likely simple question like this. After only a short time playing both Neverwinter Nights games, I understand that Neverwinter and Luskan don't get along at all. I can partially understand the conflict, given the treacherous nature of Luskan, but I'm pretty sure that that alone is not the source of the enmity between the two city-states. Why do Neverwinter and Luskan oppose each other? Was it because of an ethics dispute? Trade agreements? Personal disputes between the cities' respective leaders? Why the animosity?
Tempus665 06-12-07, 02:26 AM	I don't believe Neverwinter and Luskan oppose each other that much according to the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. There are of course a number of reasons why they would if they did: Luskan's leaders are members of the Arcane Brotherhood (an evil organization of mainly arcane spellcasters) while Neverwinter is part of the (good aligned) Lord's Alliance - a pact of northern cities bend on protecting trade in the North from sinister organizations. Luskan's pirates often endanger this trade. When this happens, Waterdeep sends aid and Neverwinter almost always sides with Waterdeep on these occassions.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-12-07, 09:02 AM	That's not the impression that I was getting from several people in Neverwinter. I know that opinions of Luskan can't be very high when you're still recovering from a war with them, but I thought somewhere along the line some of Lord Nasher's old friends came into power in Luskan, while he came to rule Neverwinter and from the little that I know it caused some sort of falling-out, which is what leads me to suspect that the conflict may be personal, at least on some level. I understand what you mean about the pirates and the Arcane Brotherhood, but it still seems like there's more to it than simple trade difficulties and political jockying.
Evil-fuma 06-12-07, 02:46 PM	Warning: NWN spiolers. Remember, NWN is not cannon, so some of the stuff that the games use for plot my not even be "real" in cannon forgotten Realms. Know, for a reason why Luskan and Neverwinter may hate each other(besides the fact that they just fought a highly destructive war with them that included a massive plaque, several rather large scale battles, and, at the end, an actual siege and invasion of Neverwinter itself) is trade. Luskan survives off of trade, Neverwinter is closer to Luskan then Waterdeep, and even though it isn't as big of a tradeing port as Waterdeep, it doese syphon a good deal of the trade their way that Luskan believes is rightfully theirs. So, naturally, a city run by rather evil fellows l;ike Luskan is, it's gonna try it's hardest to takie trade from neverwinter no matter what, including piracy, war, and deception and sabotage, and naturally, Neverwinter won't like that that much.
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 03:37 PM	besides the fact that they just fought a highly destructive war with them that included a massive plaque, several rather large scale battles, and, at the end, an actual siege and invasion of Neverwinter itself Where are these events presented?
Calmar 06-12-07, 04:59 PM	"Where are these events presented?" In the Neverwinter Nights PC game.
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 06:02 PM	"Where are these events presented?" In the Neverwinter Nights PC game. Alright. Was that during the time that the PC games were canon? Am I remembering wrong about the whole "one or two PC games were considered canon"? I'm confused. ;)
Zousha_Omenohu 06-12-07, 06:27 PM	Still, I think I read somewhere that one or two of Nasher's old adventuring buddies fell out with him, and at least one of them came to power in Luskan. That's the reason that I thought Luskan hates Neverwinter so much. In some of the events I've witnessed while playing Neverwinter Nights 2, the contempt residents of both cities feel for each other almost seems personal.
Alac Luin 06-12-07, 07:49 PM	THe animosity between Neverwinter and Luskan is an open conflict that has been going on for a LONG time. I'm not saying open warfare but conflict that has had ups and downs throughout the years. It is known that their has been been times where Luskan has sent armed troops against Neverwinter. One must also take into account the true leadership of Luscan. They have desire to rule all of the North. Neverwinter's alliance with Waterdeep does little to endear Neverwinter in the eyes of the average Luskanite (is that the right term?), since Luskan recently lost a naval war with Waterdeep in a humiliating fashion.
XHereticX 06-12-07, 08:21 PM	Still, I think I read somewhere that one or two of Nasher's old adventuring buddies fell out with him, and at least one of them came to power in Luskan. That's the reason that I thought Luskan hates Neverwinter so much. In some of the events I've witnessed while playing Neverwinter Nights 2, the contempt residents of both cities feel for each other almost seems personal. Yeah, High Captain Kurth was an old adventuring companion of Nasher that apparently went at odds with him when they fought over the same lady(like thats new:rolleyes: ). That part at least, is canon. Now the events of NWN or any of its expansion packs(which were mad fun by the way) are not canon in any way shape or form. Neverwinter does oppose Luskan just like any Lords Alliance city does because of Luskan's opposition to peace and trafficking with pirates. But not to the degree shown in NWN.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-12-07, 09:27 PM	I suppose the degree of canonicity is dependant on the individual? I haven't really commenced the campaign of Neverwinter Nights 1 in earnest, but by all reports it sounds amazing.
MerrikCale 06-12-07, 09:36 PM	The problem is that Neverwinter Nights has zero to do with the FR canon. But yes, Neverwinter as part of the Lords Alliance is opposed to Luskan and its attempts at northern dominance such as Luskan's overtaking Ruathyn.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-12-07, 09:49 PM	Frankly I think that's the reason the game is set where it is, so it doesn't step on too much canon.
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 10:43 AM	Yeah, High Captain Kurth was an old adventuring companion of Nasher that apparently went at odds with him when they fought over the same lady(like thats new:rolleyes: ). That part at least, is canon. Might not be new but it's certainly one of the biggest reasons for friendships to end bad. It's a cliche because it DOES happen often. :)
The Ubbergeek 06-13-07, 02:30 PM	The problem is that Neverwinter Nights has zero to do with the FR canon. But yes, Neverwinter as part of the Lords Alliance is opposed to Luskan and its attempts at northern dominance such as Luskan's overtaking Ruathyn. If the game had zero thing to do with the canon, why the FR logo and all, then? What is presented in the game seems fair enough - Luskanites are pirates and other thugs, a local nuisance and source of problems. Like the Barbary pirate states of our world.
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 02:54 PM	If the game had zero thing to do with the canon, why the FR logo and all, then? I think what he's trying to say is that the events portrayed in the plot of NWN are not FR canon. It's based on FR canon but then deviates as the plot progresses. Now, I've not played the game so I can't say how the plot works or doesn't work as far as FR canon goes.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 05:01 PM	The games are based in canon, but are not canon themselves. The animosity between the two cities was well established BEFORE the games ever hit shelves. If Neverwinter were to suddenly disappear, trade in Luskan would nearly double; that alone is reason for Luskanites to hate them. Add in the facts of the 'love-triangle' thing, the recent war, the cabal of evil wizards, Luskans harboring of pirates (technically 'freebooters'), the invasion of Rauthym and subsequent ousting by the Lords Alliance (of which Neverwinter is a major player), contention over Port Llast, etc, etc... As an interesting side note, Laeral Silverhand refounded Illusk (modern-day Luskan) as the capital of her own Kingdom, Stornanter. She also rebuilt the Host tower of the Arcane as a place to teach her apprentices. Her husband Khelben, on the other hand, founded the Lord's Alliance, the current chief adversary of Luskan. Strange how things always wind up coming full-circle, eh? ;)
Stigger 06-13-07, 05:49 PM	Really loosely based on canon... which it deviates from by a considerable degree. NWN1 in particular is bad about it, while NWN2 is much better about adhering to canon, though still fairly well off in a lot of respects. Not too sure about the Nasher/High Captain part though, don't recall ever reading that one outside of a NWN1 book description. Fun games, own them both, but they deviate from a lot of the lore by a rather large margin. I tend to think of them as something akin to a movie based on a novel... its close, but not really the same thing when it comes down to it.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-13-07, 06:43 PM	Okay, I've heard this sort of thing before. How does the plot of Neverwinter Nights 1 deviate from canon? Please enlighten a newcomer.
XHereticX 06-13-07, 07:30 PM	Don't forget about the Grand Cabal, I bet they really love Laeral for imprisoning them beneath the Host Tower.;)
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 07:59 PM	They enjoyed it immensly, she gave them lots of toys to keep them busy, and a Playstation 3. ;) Yeah, I would say it might be easier to list reasons why Luskan WOULDN'T hate Neverwinter.
MerrikCale 06-13-07, 08:24 PM	I think what he's trying to say is that the events portrayed in the plot of NWN are not FR canon. It's based on FR canon but then deviates as the plot progresses. Thats what I was trying to say. Thank you
XHereticX 06-13-07, 08:56 PM	We don't need no archdevils running around Waterdeep, thank god its not canon.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-13-07, 10:53 PM	Not to be rude, but I don't know if anyone was listening, so I'll ask again. How does the plot of Neverwinter Nights 1 deviate from Forgotten Realms canon? What exactly does it get "wrong"? Where are the errors?
Stigger 06-14-07, 02:51 AM	Errors in plot? For starters, the source of the Neverwinter Rivers warmth was completely wrong as far as canon is concerned. That comes from a rift to the elemental plane of fire in Mount Hotenow that has lots of fire elementals running around in it... not the Source Stone as NWN1 states. Not even going to go into the horrid treatment Ophala Cheldarstone receives in the game, considering according to cannon she's one of the most prominent members of the Many Starred Cloak... Reverend Judge Oleff Uskar is supposed to be a gnome... The Wink and the Kiss isn't even in Luskan, its in Yartar... The treatment Eltoora Sarptyl received was kind of appalling, given that she's supposed to be one of the real powers behind the throne so to speak, along with the rest of her guild, who seemingly are non-existant in the NWN1... Haeromos Dothwintyl got a pretty poor treatment as well in 1 considering he's supposed to be a decent fighter and not some lisping weenie as he was portrayed... That you could buy maps of Neverwinter flew in the face of canon as well... Could go on and on, but I'm pretty sure you get the point by now, and that's not even going into NWN2, which had several glaring flaws itself really, though not nearly so many of them. I'd seriously suggest taking a look at Volo's Guide to the North, should be available as a free PDF on the WotC old edition download page. It'll give you a better idea of how its supposed to be, rather than how the NWN series showed it. Which wasn't necessarily (all) bad mind you, just not canon. :)
Zousha_Omenohu 06-14-07, 08:53 AM	And what caused NWN 2 to deviate from canon, just out of curiosity? I know about the whole issue of multiple Illefarns, which I learned on another thread, but what are the other errors in there?
Red_Wizard 06-14-07, 09:03 AM	From my POV, and understanding the games remain Canon, only the actions of the PC's are purely fiction. Much of NWN is based on canon material/ heavily canon oriented. Having played NWN several times through (including expansions), and having been reading Realms for many years now I can safely say despite the short list given (And even omitting some less than debatable remarks on there), there is little wrong with the games that would put them beyond the scope of being referred to as canon.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-14-07, 01:13 PM	That's really how I like to think of these things. This isn't like what happened with Star Wars canon and the KOTOR games, which ended up being retconned into the timeline and a set alignment and gender was added to the player characters (Light Side Male Revan, Light Side Female Exile).
Stigger 06-14-07, 02:52 PM	Never seen any references in print to a wailing death striking Neverwinter, much less some attempted Sarrukh invasion. Toss in that whole ridiculous incident with Fort Ilkard and I'd say none of the OC stuff was canon from NWN1, especially since the PCs could have slain not only Klauth, but Obould as well... Not so sure about HotU or SoU, but again, never seen a mention of either event in a canon source. You'd think a underdark invasion and archdevil attack would have merited at least a footnote in COS:W's history or recent events section. ;) As to the Illefarn question, I don't see that as a problem. Think the modern Ironeater dwarves near Daggerford are using that name as well actually... there are a lot of instances of the same name being used for fairly different instances of a place or kingdom. Never gotten all that into the ancient Illefarn thing though, but it was at least plausible on some level... Not sure if the timeline synchs much, others would have to speak to that point. Sorry, but the entire premise of Neverwinter falling into complete chaos runs counter to what we know about it. It's been specifically stated that Neverwinter doesn't have the slums most major cities do, that the citizenry are basically lawful or neutral good on the whole, and that they're mostly artisans who 'follow their weird'... sounded more like Santa Cruz, CA by way of Switzerland to me. The entire flavor of the city was altered almost beyond recognition for that series... As to NWN2's deviation from canon... mostly in the details of the setting, though it was considerably less guilty of that than NWN1 was. The exclusion of Leilon from existance (sat right about where Crossroad Keep was if I'm remembering the map right, adding in Highcliff and Westharbor... much less any population in the Mere itself... there's enough deviation and adding in of some fairly major details there to say to me that the game, no matter how good it was, was not canon per se. Personally I found it to be far more plausible than NWN1's OC, except the thief part, that took some swallowing, and might just borrow it at some point, heavily modified of course, but it still isn't canon as far as I'm know.
Passivearmada 06-14-07, 06:05 PM	alright, i just have to lay some things out and ask a few questions. i saw some ad for NWN2 and thought id play the first one. i got the diamond edition (it & all the expansions on 1 disc). i am usually always a rogue/thief/assassin/scout/spellthief/arcane trickster/ whatever with a little bit of magical ability. however, when i found that only 1 guy can tag along with you, i got frustrated. i play these games to form a strategic party, not to let the half-orc barbarian with and Intelligence score of 6 charge in, distract the mugggers, while i sneak up and flank them. :twitch: however, i still would like to buy NWN2. i dont have a job and am on a tight budget, and im kinda saving up for a beautifel epiphone guitar, so id like to know if NWN2 is worth my money. thank you. __________________________ My favorite NPC i made up- Jarec Whispersole CN Half-Elf Rogue 6/Collector of Whipers 3 (my made up prestige class) I am also a big fan of mages :mage::mage::mage::mage::mage: and city guards (however weak they may be)
Stigger 06-14-07, 06:10 PM	You can get more than 1 companion in NWN 2... think its 3-4 by default, but console commands let you up the party to whatever you like actually. Overall its a pretty good game in my opinion. Biggest downside for me with it is the lack of really good modules from the community, at least as far as I'm aware. Haven't checked it in a while though, so I could very well be wrong on that point by now.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 07:01 PM	Get the guitar, much better deal personally I think;) The main reason NWN, NWN2, Demon Stone and other FR PC games aren't canon is because generally canon consists of what sourcebooks and novels print out, plus Ed and the designer's own words and Dragon/Dungeon magazine. The PC games tends to throw in realms-shaking events that totally screw up canon and realmslore(like that stuff stigger mentioned before) and puts your PCs behind events that would morph Faerun in whole. Oh, an interesting fact for old wheel grounards, in NWN2 when you go into the outer planes they use the names of the GW planes, not GT planes. I found that hopeful and interesting. The only reason the Baldur's Gate games are canon is because there are novels based on them.
Uzzy 06-14-07, 08:00 PM	Stigger, hardly fair to knock NWN2 for not having any good modules out yet. It's a much younger game then NWN! Only been out for 8 months or so. Don't remember many great modules being out for NWN in that time. Anyway, I've always used the general overarching plot of the games as canon, so in my world, there was a war between Neverwinter and Luskan, involving a certain Blackguard. Not the specifics though, due to the various reasons outlined above.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 08:40 PM	Stigger, hardly fair to knock NWN2 for not having any good modules out yet. It's a much younger game then NWN! Only been out for 8 months or so. Don't remember many great modules being out for NWN in that time. Anyway, I've always used the general overarching plot of the games as canon, so in my world, there was a war between Neverwinter and Luskan, involving a certain Blackguard. Not the specifics though, due to the various reasons outlined above. Pretty sexy blackguard;) But he/she isn't even canon.
Uzzy 06-14-07, 09:22 PM	There is actually 'Aribeth's Ring' in Magic of Faerún. No description linking it to Aribeth though.
Passivearmada 06-18-07, 12:17 PM	in NWN2, do you have any freedom or is it a "follow-the-yellow-brick-road" kind of game like Demon Stone?
Zousha_Omenohu 06-18-07, 07:03 PM	Well, you have the ability to decide you're alignment through gameplay, and there are several ways to resolve quests. It doesn't have a completely open-ended, roam-around-and-do-as-you-please aspect like the Elder Scrolls series (but they're the exception rather than the norm anyway). You can travel to various places at almost any time via a "world map" and you have a full range of classes, races, equipment and spells to select from. While there is a somewhat linear plot to the Original Campaign, I'd say it gives you a lot of freedom, but that's just me.
Passivearmada 06-18-07, 09:10 PM	sounds cool- i think ill get it- maybr. its always maybe with me. are there side quests? i also heard something about your own castle- do you get to customize that?
Zousha_Omenohu 06-18-07, 11:20 PM	There are a few, though you complete most of them as you progress through the game anyway. You do get a castle, or more accurately, a keep and the surrounding lands (though you can only walk around in the keep...I think, haven't gotten that far). You get to customize your keep to a certain extent, in that you decide what kind of buildings get built, which provide different benefits, and you also "customize" it, in a sense through your decisions as you run the operations of the keep. For instance, at one point, you can decide what trade caravan you want to do business with, or how to discipline a disobediant soldier. This all culminates in you singlehandedly defending your stronghold when it falls under siege by the undead armies of the dreaded King of Shadows! Dun dun dunnnn...:D
Passivearmada 06-19-07, 11:07 AM	I'd pay $50 bucks if it were just the castle part in the game. and a siege of undead!?!??!? RIGHTEOUS!!!!!!!! I'm usually a rogue, though... a rogue king isnt so great... WHO CARES?!?!??! im gonna go out and get this game today (if I can) thanks so much, you guys! and, uh... do you need to have beateb the first game to know whats going on in NWN2?? cause I couldnt get through NWN1- it just, i hate to say it, bored me- especially, the one henchie thing, but you can see that above.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-19-07, 01:20 PM	Well, it references it at several points throughout the game, but all in all it's not really required, though if your familiar with the events and characters of the first one, you'll see a few familiar faces. Especially everyone's favorite kobold bard.:D As for Crossroad Keep (your stronghold), know that you won't get it until about halfway through the second of the OC's three acts, and Act III mostly consists of the siege and your final showdown with the King of Shadows, so it's a bit short. And technically, you're not a king. You're the Knight-Captain, which is effectively an agent of your lord Nasher Alagondar of Neverwinter. Sorry if that dissapoints you any.
ElberethSilverleaf 06-23-07, 12:36 AM	I see it this way. I would prefer rulership under an enlightened despot (Lord Nasher) than being ruled by an oligarchy of thieving, evil, pirate supporting, xenophobic wizards (The Host Tower) any day.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-23-07, 01:33 AM	Not to mention the fact that in the gameverse, the High Captains are all dead, and at the end of NWN2, two mages of the Hosttower are dead also, though to be fair Garius was only concerned with his agenda.
Passivearmada 06-24-07, 07:27 PM	I always thought it was Hosttower- like one word. also, does anyone know where i can get a map of luskan's streets? i really want one. (i bought the game :)) of course, i had to lower the graphics considerably, but its pretty good- very entertaining. im not too far into it, though.
Passivearmada 06-24-07, 07:44 PM	I always thought it was Hosttower- like one word. also, does anyone know where i can get a map of luskan's streets? i really want one. (i bought the game :)) of course, i had to lower the graphics considerably, but its pretty good- very entertaining. im not too far into it, though.
Passivearmada 06-24-07, 07:44 PM	sorry bout that a little glitch in the system, that's all :)
MerrikCale 06-24-07, 09:33 PM	I see it this way. I would prefer rulership under an enlightened despot (Lord Nasher) than being ruled by an oligarchy of thieving, evil, pirate supporting, xenophobic wizards (The Host Tower) any day. an enlightened despot is still a despot. 'course, if he was that enlightened he wouldn't be a despot, he would have the power to the people
Zousha_Omenohu 06-25-07, 02:07 AM	I think the best way to see it is that Nasher is Lawful Neutral. He's no paladin, so we can't expect him to behave like one. He is a politician, however, so we can expect that he'll want what he thinks is best for Neverwinter (and he usually isn't wrong).
Passivearmada 06-25-07, 09:34 AM	yeah, Nasher is a good guy, and he is always doing what is right. I want to say that points him in a goodly direction, so i'd say Neutral Good, but Lawful Neutral is a good assumption, Zousha_Omenohu.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-25-07, 11:57 PM	Thing is, Nasher doesn't seem to be good from what I've observed. At one point you end up taking on a whole tribe of orcs who've been raiding and hurting innocent people to help Neverwinter take control of the local well. As one of your companions says, they only want the well so they can reopen the trade route to Yartar, not because the people are being attacked. Also, after Luskan attempts to frame you for mass-murder, Nasher is fully willing to believe that the Luskans who did so were renegades and did not represent Luskan, though you and your companions can tell that the ambassador is obviously lying. He does what's best for Neverwinter, and though Neverwinter is generally seen as "the good guys", he is in no way devoted to the greater good. His primary concern is his city's survival and prosperity. If he truly were a Lawful Good type, then he'd probably lead a crusade against Luskan. Just my two silvers.
MerrikCale 06-26-07, 11:48 PM	I think the best way to see it is that Nasher is Lawful Neutral. He's no paladin, wasn't he at one point a paladin of Tyr?
Zousha_Omenohu 06-27-07, 12:24 AM	If he was, I'm not aware of it. I know that in the game, he's not a saintly figure, but a shrewd diplomat and cunning politician. He'd have to be if he was going to last more than 10 minutes on the throne.
MerrikCale 06-27-07, 09:55 AM	If he was, I'm not aware of it. I know that in the game, he's not a saintly figure, but a shrewd diplomat and cunning politician. He'd have to be if he was going to last more than 10 minutes on the throne. I thought the FRCS or the Volo's Guide had him listed as a paladin.
ShadezofDis 06-27-07, 10:50 AM	If he was, I'm not aware of it. I know that in the game, he's not a saintly figure, but a shrewd diplomat and cunning politician. He'd have to be if he was going to last more than 10 minutes on the throne. I thought the FRCS or the Volo's Guide had him listed as a paladin. He could easily have been a Paladin, heck, since I don't know much of his history he could still be a Paladin. Now, the reason Paladin and shrewd diplomat can go in the same sentence is because of the fact we're talking about a Paladin of Tyr. A Paladin of Tyr should have a VERY good knowledge of law and that knowledge would be priceless to a diplomat. He might not be a paladin anymore but it's easy to see a LG (emphasis upon law) go to LN as a result of actually being a ruler. It's usually a pretty dirty job. :)
Zousha_Omenohu 06-27-07, 11:52 PM	That's what I'm saying. If he was a paladin at some point, then he is definately an ex-paladin now (though it really doesn't matter at this point, since he's basically retired from adventuring).
Aysun 06-28-07, 05:15 PM	Nasher is not a paladin and never was. He's considered to be a Divine Champion of Tyr (was changed to fit because previously that was was called Champion of Torm but for the game they made the DC prestige class) and as you know All DCT are not Paladin....they have figthers, rangers also...so my guess is Nasher was a Figther in his young life until he became a Divine Champion and ye don't need to be LG for it either.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-29-07, 07:55 AM	That makes more sense and explains away the possible alignment conundrum. I agree that Nasher probably was a fighter, since the gear he was wearing in the opening cinematic of the game doesn't seem to look very paladinesque. Much more like a fighter, in my opinion.
pokie 06-29-07, 03:25 PM	Short answer: because. Long answer: Luskan is a %^&ch. They attack neighbors a lot. NWN responds to that as part of Lord's Alliance.
Flicker 06-29-07, 03:33 PM	And please don't bring alignment into it and try to justify actions, it won't work. Try this, George W Bush is what alignment>? now relate that back to the guy in charge of Neverwinter. Flicker
pokie 06-29-07, 03:44 PM	GW Bush is LE
Zousha_Omenohu 06-29-07, 04:34 PM	Why does this look a bit different from when I visited earlier today? I know some person left a rather insulting commment here, and now it seems to have dissapeared. What exactly happened? And my opinion of the President's alignment is that he is TN, like the rest of the general American populace is.
pokie 06-29-07, 04:36 PM	I wouldn't argue about GW's alignment, that would bring on a flame war, but I think that very very few people in the world are TN. Many Americans would be LN given the strength of law enforcement here (as opposed to other countries).
XHereticX 06-29-07, 04:56 PM	GW Bush is LE Nah, CE, he is too stupid to be LE. Like Tommy Chong said,"This country is being run by a moron, get rid of the moron, and the moronic problems will suddenly disappear.";) Most Americans would be a Neutral alignment, older individuals tend to lean towards law and younger towards chaos. Still, don't can't completly fit the moralities and ideals of RW people into the D&D alignment system without deficiencies, a lot of them. Remember, the D&D aligment chart was intended for worlds where evil is something you can detect with a detect evil spell:cool:
pokie 06-29-07, 05:01 PM	The young are chaotic stupid... Anyway, I still think they are mostly lawful - breaking laws here has too many repercussions to be anything but...
XHereticX 06-29-07, 05:05 PM	The young are chaotic stupid... Anyway, I still think they are mostly lawful - breaking laws here has too many repercussions to be anything but... chaotic dosen't mean you necessarily break laws all the time, you could just have a disrespect for authority and a tedency to be different, you know, rebell. Of course you would follow laws not because you like them, but for self-preservation so that you could have more freedom. America is a relatively free country anyway. Lawfuls tend to actually believe in law and tradition.
pokie 06-29-07, 05:06 PM	chaotic dosen't mean you necessarily break laws all the time, you could just have a disrespect for authority and a tedency to be different, you know, rebell. Of course you would follow laws not because you like them, but for self-preservation so that you could have more freedom. America is a relatively free country anyway. Lawfuls tend to actually believe in law and tradition. Yeah, i guess that comes down to semantics... America may be free but is extremely reactionary politically... Actions of the populace here are far more limited than in many 3rd world countries (which is good).
XHereticX 06-29-07, 05:19 PM	Yeah, i guess that comes down to semantics... America may be free but is extremely reactionary politically... Actions of the populace here are far more limited than in many 3rd world countries (which is good). Yeah, it is because of this status-quo system that is set up which hampers's people's decision making abilities that it is hard to discern a person's true alignment in a developed modern country like the US. People don't go against the law because most people don't have a reason or a initiative to do so since the law dosen't really affect them too much, it is when it does that you see a person's true nature. In 3rd world countries its different as laws are tedious and most people have to survive by their gut, so they would obviously follow whatever their human natures tell them to do. Anyway, its hard to place real-world human beings in such a stereotypical and restrictive system such as the D&D alignment chart. Reality is not as black and white, anarchist and lawman as D&D, everything (or at least everything) is in a sort of twilight zone. Heck, even the most psycopathic killers have some shred of morality and reasonable (at least in their opinion) judgement. Good and evil itself was just created to say, "Hey, this is safe, and this is not." Really, this whole thing is nothing but human delusion and a mortal attempt to classify behavior.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-29-07, 07:12 PM	The reason I say True Neutral is not because Americans are dedicated to balance, but rather the fact that there is no one alignment that speaks for the entire country, as has been stated before. Many Americans can change their minds about something with little effort, and while some may place order over freedom or vice versa, that is dependent on what political/religious/social/economic issues they focus on. The reason it is not good or evil is simply because most Americans (and humans in general) simply are concerned with their personal well-being and possibly that of their family and friends. While it isn't impossible to find some examples of truly Good people (Mother Teresa, for example), and some completely Evil people (Milosevic, for example (HA! You thought it was going to be Hitler!:P )) those are the exception, rather than the norm. But then, these are just my personal ruminations, and this discussion really has no bearing on the issue being discussed, hough in all honesty I think my questions regarding the animosity between Neverwinter and Luskan to be answered quite thoroughly. Thank you all.
Stigger 06-30-07, 03:39 AM	Nasher was listed as NG and a fighter/divine champion as far as I'm aware... was NG fighter in 2e if I recall correctly. He's not that well portrayed in the NWN series really, though I liked him much more in NWN2 to be honest. As to Mother Teresa... see the P&T: BS series, 3rd season for a pretty eye opening look at her. I'd put her at LE personally... NE maybe.
MarkusTay63 06-30-07, 02:57 PM	Man, this thread is all over the place. Every time I stop in here its on a new tangent. Personally, I go to Marvel Comics for all my wisdom. :D Yeah... that's right...good ol' Stan Lee has been working the bugs out of his multiverse 20 years longer then TSR/WotC/Hasbro, and when I'm in doubt about how something will work on the cosmic level, I defer to him. Alignments, for instance. Our world is one based on technology, and is therefore governed by the forces of Good and Evil. Everything is black and white, because we live on a scientific world. Worlds where magic is predominant are ruled by the forces of Law and Chaos, which are more 'mystical' (enigmatic) powers and harder to define. Somewhere along the way, each world along the cosmic crossroads makes a subconscious choice to be either magical or mundane, and that determines which alignments/beings are at odds in the sphere. That doesn't mean the other forces can't try to get a foot-hold in the world, and at the end of the Elric series we see a new world born - one with little magic governed by good and evil instead. A young world, one still suffering under tectonic pressures and primal forces, may have all four of the powers contending for dominace, but at some point primitive humans (or whatever) are going to have to make a choice - will they build the wheel to help them move around heavy loads, or summon some beast-totem to move it for them? In that instant, two of the powers move into dominance, and the other two fall into the background. In this way, we can see why D&D worlds, based on Magic, behave somewhat differently then 'real' worlds. In a 'tech' world like our own, decisions are based more on the evidence at hand, and weighed against how good or evil the outcome will be (or more likely, how much money it will make). In magical worlds, beings behave more along lines that their alignment dictates. Evil creatures attack good creatures, even if it isn't logical at the time. That doesn't mean some creatures can't break out of the mold, like Drizzt or Obould, but it is harder because they have Law and Chaos hanging over their heads. Alignments don't make sense in our world, because the nature of our universe is subtlely different then that of FR, or any game world for that matter.
MerrikCale 06-30-07, 03:03 PM	Personally, I go to Marvel Comics for all my wisdom. :D excelsior!
Passivearmada 07-01-07, 08:16 PM	Thing is, Nasher doesn't seem to be good from what I've observed. At one point you end up taking on a whole tribe of orcs who've been raiding and hurting innocent people to help Neverwinter take control of the local well. As one of your companions says, they only want the well so they can reopen the trade route to Yartar, not because the people are being attacked. Also, after Luskan attempts to frame you for mass-murder, Nasher is fully willing to believe that the Luskans who did so were renegades and did not represent Luskan, though you and your companions can tell that the ambassador is obviously lying. He does what's best for Neverwinter, and though Neverwinter is generally seen as "the good guys", he is in no way devoted to the greater good. His primary concern is his city's survival and prosperity. If he truly were a Lawful Good type, then he'd probably lead a crusade against Luskan. Just my two silvers. I think we can settle on Nasher having an Intelligence score of 6 lol
Passivearmada 07-01-07, 08:25 PM	um, i hate to be rude, but i'll ask again. does anyone know of alink to a map of Luskan, like the streets and stuff, not a map of the area. it would be appreciated ;)
MerrikCale 07-01-07, 08:58 PM	um, i hate to be rude, but i'll ask again. does anyone know of alink to a map of Luskan, like the streets and stuff, not a map of the area. it would be appreciated ;) I only know of the map in Volo's Guide
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 10:27 PM	This One. (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Luskan.jpg)
Passivearmada 07-01-07, 10:51 PM	Thank you. But i can hardly see the numbers. And i dont see a Prisoners Carnival. ah, well. Thanks anyways. okay, i just wanted to know where The Cutlass was, and i can't find it :(
Stigger 07-02-07, 03:07 AM	Download Volo's Guide to the North, should be one in there, and probably a better copy of that map, as its scanned from said Volo's guide if I'm not mistaken... should be able to get it for free off the older edition downloads on the main WotC site.
MarkusTay63 07-02-07, 06:14 PM	That was directly captured off of the older edition PDF, and YES, it looks that bad in person. :( I just moved the map key onto the map so I wouldn't need to capture the entire page. I also sharpened and corrected it somewhat, so the original looked worse, IMHO. Sorry, I tried.
Stigger 07-03-07, 01:43 AM	:blink: damn... sorry then
Alac Luin 07-03-07, 10:51 AM	There is a half page map in Savage frontier. Not much detail, but easier to read (pg 66 of the free .pdf) But the one in "The North" is better, it's even in color (pg 210 of the .pdf)