Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mula 03-01-08, 03:45 PM	From http://pc.ign.com/articles/855/855992p2.html.And the changes are definitely radical. Taking place roughly a hundred years after the current campaign setting, the new Forgotten Realms is reeling from the effects of a Spell Plague caused when the Goddess of Magic died. Her death meant that magic became much more chaotic and unpredictable. The kingdoms of the Realms fragmented as well, so the world will take on a "points of light" character, where small islands of civilization are separated by a vast, dangerous wilderness. Of course, some of your favorite inhabitants of the Realms will still have a role to play. Elminster will still be a powerful figure, but he's afraid to use his magic now, not only because of the effects of the Spell Plague, but also because he's absorbed the memories of a number of powerful beings who tend to take over his mind when he attempts to use magic.The Seven Sisters?
SmartPaladin 03-01-08, 04:09 PM	From http://pc.ign.com/articles/855/855992p2.html.The Seven Sisters? There's a mental image...
Meldread 03-01-08, 04:35 PM	Elminster will still be a powerful figure, but he's afraid to use his magic now, not only because of the effects of the Spell Plague, but also because he's absorbed the memories of a number of powerful beings who tend to take over his mind when he attempts to use magic. Haha. That's worse than death, I'd imagine.
18DELTA 03-01-08, 05:28 PM	From http://pc.ign.com/articles/855/855992p2.html.The Seven Sisters? -That would be awesome!!!:P 18DELTA:rolleyes:
ikki 03-01-08, 07:39 PM	Like GodEmperor Leto II, the Worm.. ;) He managed to create a pharaonic hierarchy to stay in controll. Ofcourse el might be going the way of alia tho.. lol Likely sharing his body with mystra, mystryl, midnight, a dozen chosen, larloch & 60 liches.. hilather etc.. Shar maybe even..
buzzard 03-01-08, 08:01 PM	That's actually an interesting twist, as long as he is not insane in the same manner Halaster was.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 09:58 PM	I don't like it. But that probably doesn't surprise any of you.
sfdragon 03-01-08, 10:14 PM	dont like it either. anyway, cant be the seven sisters, there are only 6 now. might be the princes of shade?
Meldread 03-01-08, 10:17 PM	Likely sharing his body with mystra, mystryl, midnight, a dozen chosen, larloch & 60 liches.. hilather etc.. Shar maybe even.. Elminster: Is it just me, or do you hear voices, too? :P Seriously, though, this has to be a prelude to at least a dozen mental disorders.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 10:18 PM	dont like it either. anyway, cant be the seven sisters, there are only 6 now. If not less by the time 1479 DR rolls around.:(
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 12:35 AM	The Seven Sisters? -Could be anyone. Based on the fact that he's 'afraid' to use magic (:rolleyes:) because of who possibly might take over his mind, I don't necessarily think the Seven Sisters are specifically the ones Elminster 'absorbed'. Why would he fear their personalities coming to 'the front', for a period of time? Makes me think perhaps the individual(s) in his mind are evil.
GothicDan 03-02-08, 01:02 AM	I'll be a bit ****** if El and the Simbul don't have a child.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 02:31 AM	Having recently read the Elminster novels, he has ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS taken on the memories of others, for many different reasons, but usually at the behest of Mystra. The Tel-Kiira from that Elf Lord was just one example - he absorbed the memories of hundreds of Elves from that family line alone. Also, in Elminster in Hell, his mind was 'mixing' with many others, including even Mirt! I understand that the Chosen are all somehow mentally linked (as per that novel), but MIRT?! :confused: Anyhow, I think Mystra at some point early on implanted some sort of 'fail-safe' inside Elminster's head, which would allow him to house an abnormally vast amount of memories (nearly god-like in its capacity) - not only his, but those of MANY others. I believe Mystra herself has even used this, to 'record' parts of herself to be passed on to 'future versions' of herself. If thats the case, and this 'Mystra Memory' is locked in his brain, awaiting a host, he's screwed... because Shar blocked the ascension of a new god of Magic. In a way, its the ultimate Irony - El now has too many women on his mind... literally.
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 03:32 AM	-So much for 4e making Elminster less 'superhuman', eh?
Another Gnome 03-02-08, 04:37 AM	Well, he may still be technically superhuman (the fact he's even alive already qualifies for that), but personally I get this image of a crippled old hermit living on a mountain tending a flower garden. You know, the traditional Old Master type from ninja movies who inexplainably has the power and skill of ten men when it comes to teaching his would-be student humility, but is barely able to walk when the bad guy comes to kill him, and then the good guy who presumably learned to fight on a level surpassing the bad guy within a few weeks goes on a quest of revenge during which he undergoes spiritual growth and finally learns to forgive the bad guy after defeating him, and then the bad guy springs up again to attack the good guy when his back is turned, only to get skewered at the last moment as the good guy thrusts his sword behind him without even looking.
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 04:42 AM	-The Old Master has the power of ten men? The wisdom of twenty? Why, he's overshadowing the PCs! You can't do that!
Another Gnome 03-02-08, 04:51 AM	The point was that he's become a harmless old coot forgotten by most of the world unless someone goes and deliberately picks a fight with him. :P
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 04:54 AM	The point was that he's become a harmless old coot forgotten by most of the world unless someone goes and deliberately picks a fight with him. :P -That's already what he is, as per the FRCS, although he is not forgotten, per se, by the world at large. He isn't, however, a famous celebrity known to every single peasant farmer all throughout the four corners of the continent.
Alleran 03-02-08, 05:03 AM	"no, he still has lulz omg awsom magic, bt bad ppl try to taek ovr his mnd when he uses it lol so he cant do it any mor!!!!" I don't like it. It sounds to me like just another excuse to make a powerful NPC less than he/she is, getting them out of the way so that little level 1 players don't feel outmatched and weak... even though they're level 1. If they don't feel outmatched by things, then there's something wrong with either the DM or the setting. Another patch to a problem that doesn't/shouldn't exist.
Rauric 03-02-08, 07:28 AM	I am fine with this. It sounds like they made him an Eldritch device of a certain setting. Basically the device does whatever you need it to for your campaign. It is almost like they are making him into an NPC like the one in a RPG called 7th Sea. He may be pretty much unstatted as well if this is the case.
Alediran 03-02-08, 10:59 AM	Pathetic way of telling DM who can't handle him that they suck. Another reason not to even pay for havig a book to burn.
Green Elven Vampire 03-02-08, 12:48 PM	This blows chunks of retarded monkey dung! I mean the transition from 2ED to 3ED upset some people, but at least they didn't retcon the history and alter the past to set up 3ED. They just added "world shaking events" (which never really shook the world.) Here they are just throwing confetti in the air and bellowing Wee!!! I think Elminster can handle a plethora of memories... it's the game designers who I believe can't seem to get ONE NPC right. But then again I despise everything 4ED FR related.
Alediran 03-02-08, 01:10 PM	They haven't even get Elminster right, he'll rather die than allow Faerūn to be overrun by evil, therefore the voices can't really affect him, plus any DM who still want's to screw their players can say: Elminster: The voices in my head told me to save your pathetic asses from danger.
Another Gnome 03-02-08, 01:47 PM	For all we know, it could have been Ed's idea for what would happen to Elminster in the given situation... Regardless, the guy (Elminster that is) has been steadily going senile for a good while already, and with yet another Mystra getting blown up on his watch, I find it a lot more plausible that he's finally gotten ready to snap, than that he would just keep on going like a Duracell bunny and act like it was all according to the grand scheme of things and that he'd been prepared for something like it for the last few centuries.
Faraer 03-02-08, 01:58 PM	I don't think we have enough detail here to make these definite judgements about this.
Alediran 03-02-08, 01:58 PM	That I can accept, but being afraid of casting spells? That's just stretching it too much, make him a 1st lvl fighter and it would have the same effect.
Meldread 03-02-08, 02:03 PM	I disagree, actually as this puts Elminster in a position that can be used by any campaign. - You can use Elminster as the crippled old man who can give your PCs sagely advice, and have a legitimate canonical excuse as to why he doesn't just teleport over and wipe out the goblin chieftain in three seconds then teleport back. - You can 'cure' Elminster in your campaign of his problem, and have him the way he was pre-Spellplague - you can even give him more power if you want. - You can use him as a plot device or a starting point for an adventure. "Silence the Voices in Elminster's Mind" - you could take that a whole lot of different ways. Who are the voices? What do they want? Do they contain hidden information? Hell, you could base an entire campaign around it that could eventually result in a new Mystra arising. All in all it makes him much more flexible to be used by a DM. For me personally, I am going to leave him a crippled old coot and stick him in Candlekeep. He'll spend his days there trying to preserve lost lore, and will occasionally call upon adventurers to perform certain quests. As the crippled old man, I'd even allow a PC to take him as a mentor.
Alediran 03-02-08, 02:47 PM	And if a DM cures Elminster in his campaing then players will begin to whine about Elminster again, therefore WotC patch is only a useless piece of wasted space, and everything will start again. Then we'll get 5th edition where Elminster is still alive, just in a worse state, and so on and so on and nothing will truly change (which is ironic, because that's the same thing that happened for 80 years in my country, everything changed so everything could remain the same)
Mula 03-02-08, 02:56 PM	We also had the opportunity to talk with Ed Greenwood, the creator of the Forgotten Realms, about some of the changes that Wizards is bringing to this popular campaign setting. Though Wizards owns the setting, they realize that no one knows it quite as well as Ed, and that for many players, his involvement brings a real sense of legitimacy to the radical changes they've instituted to the Realms. And the changes are definitely radical. Taking place roughly a hundred years after the current campaign setting, the new Forgotten Realms is reeling from the effects of a Spell Plague caused when the Goddess of Magic died. Her death meant that magic became much more chaotic and unpredictable. The kingdoms of the Realms fragmented as well, so the world will take on a "points of light" character, where small islands of civilization are separated by a vast, dangerous wilderness. Of course, some of your favorite inhabitants of the Realms will still have a role to play. Elminster will still be a powerful figure, but he's afraid to use his magic now, not only because of the effects of the Spell Plague, but also because he's absorbed the memories of a number of powerful beings who tend to take over his mind when he attempts to use magic. As with Ed's previous efforts, the idea isn't to tie DMs down to someone else's idea of what the world should be about. Rather, it's to create a meaningful backdrop that comes with a number of adventure seeds and compelling circumstances that individual DMs can use to express their own creativity. The point of these Lore books, according to Ed, is to do the hard and often unglamorous work of setting up trade routes, weather patterns and political systems, and then let DMs run wild with their own imaginative ideas.So, presumably, this new Elminster is Ed's doing, though I'd imagine the WotC people told Ed to come up with a solution to "depowering" Elminster.
Meldread 03-02-08, 03:04 PM	And if a DM cures Elminster in his campaing then players will begin to whine about Elminster again, therefore WotC patch is only a useless piece of wasted space, and everything will start again. Then the DM shouldn't cure Elminster in his campaign. That is a simple problem to solve. It is easier for WotC to cripple him and then have DM's fix him, than to leave him as is, connect him to a ton of major plots throughout the setting, then have the DM cripple him and have to go behind WotC to tie up all the loose ends. In the end, it empowers the DM and encourages the use of Elminster in whatever capacity that a DM and his group desires. If you don't like epic Realms-Shaking Elminster, well - he's not anymore - he's a crippled old man. You don't like that? Then he can just as easily be fixed with a wave of the hand, even greater and more powerful than before, in addition you can connect him to whatever plots you desire without having to worry about previous plots he may have been involved with getting in the way. It gives you unparalleled flexibility and freedom to use him however you desire in your campaign. Thus, I believe Elminster will get MORE use than he ever did in his current 3E state. If someone asked how they should integrate 3E Elminster into their campaign, I'd bluntly tell them not to do it, and to pretend that Elminster is off somewhere else busy. If they knock on his door in Shadowdale - he isn't home, he's off handling some important business. Now, I don't have to tell people that. He can answer his door and interact with the PC's in whatever way is appropriate to a DM's campaign. He can even have a long ongoing role within the campaign as an important NPC that won't bring up silly questions as to why Elminster doesn't take five seconds of his time to handle the problem, and save hundreds of lives in the process.
Alediran 03-02-08, 03:10 PM	And we never had that flexibility before?
Meldread 03-02-08, 03:19 PM	And we never had that flexibility before? Nope. Not without unnecessary extra work and constantly ignoring cannon material. WotC doing it also lends DM's creditability when dealing with Elminster who is an iconic character. If you sat down to play a 3E Realm's game, and ran into Elminster, who was crippled, defeated and embittered imagine how you'd react. There is a lot of fanboyism surrounding him, Drizzt and a lot of other iconic characters - and some fans are willing to fight a DM to the death to have their favorite Realm's characters portrayed as authentically as possible. Some fanboys are so zealous about certain aspects of the Realm's - such as Mystra and her Chosen - that it borders on a religion.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 03:35 PM	Running Commentary - -That's already what he is, as per the FRCS, although he is not forgotten, per se, by the world at large. He isn't, however, a famous celebrity known to every single peasant farmer all throughout the four corners of the continent.And the name of the year the 4e FR setting begins in - "The Year of the Ageless One" - speaks volumes about how well known he is and the way in which people will view him. For all we know, it could have been Ed's idea for what would happen to Elminster in the given situation...From one of Rich's (or maybe it was someone else 'official') comments on the matter, it IS Ed doing the 4e Elminster, and it will be ED'S TAKE on where he think the old codger would fit in best in the 4e world. That doesn't necceassarily mean that that is what Ed would have planned out for El, but rather him doing the best he can within the constraints of the outline handed him. So, presumably, this new Elminster is Ed's doing, though I'd imagine the WotC people told Ed to come up with a solution to "depowering" Elminster.Precisely. ;) My Appraisal: I really don't like the lack of 'hard and fast' facts in 4e - just a glossy backdrop for games that people can 'assume' anything they want with. As much as I hated a good chunk of recent canon lore, at least there was canon, and a good deal of what we do here on this site is debate the facts. If the facts are left ambiguous, and each DM can make-up whatever he wants, then there really isn't any 'set' canon. I have always made the changes that this new addition welcomes - I've just divorced my world from the canon realms. Now it seems that they want to move away from the debates and get back to playing this game... which is fine, except a lot of people are fans of the setting (canon), and NOT the game. Where does that leave them? Should they just 'fill in the blanks' from their imaginations as well? They seem to be taking the decision to use canon or not out of our hands at this point. Canon becomes whatever you make of it.
Faraer 03-02-08, 03:55 PM	Nope. Not without unnecessary extra work and constantly ignoring cannon material.Canon material says he's a retired sage whose behind-the-scenes machinations aren't known except as rumours to sages and highly placed people, who spends much of his time researching other planes and by default isn't in if PCs try to find him. What would be inauthentic would be if he took 'five seconds of his time to handle the problem, and save hundreds of lives in the process', which is neither how Elminster nor the Realms works.
Meldread 03-02-08, 03:57 PM	I really don't like the lack of 'hard and fast' facts in 4e - just a glossy backdrop for games that people can 'assume' anything they want with. As much as I hated a good chunk of recent canon lore, at least there was canon, and a good deal of what we do here on this site is debate the facts. If the facts are left ambiguous, and each DM can make-up whatever he wants, then there really isn't any 'set' canon. I have always made the changes that this new addition welcomes - I've just divorced my world from the canon realms. Now it seems that they want to move away from the debates and get back to playing this game... which is fine, except a lot of people are fans of the setting (canon), and NOT the game. Where does that leave them? Should they just 'fill in the blanks' from their imaginations as well? They seem to be taking the decision to use canon or not out of our hands at this point. Canon becomes whatever you make of it. I am not sure I agree with your premise that it might be bad. Ultimately they are making a game setting for DM's to use as they see fit. I embrace the design philosophy that puts the power into our (the DM's) hands. Of course, like everyone else here, I also like the setting - I like the lore. So for me personally, I want to have my cake and eat it too. When I play the game I do not like things that are not flexible. The more that is set in stone, the more broken stones I end up having if it doesn't fit with my game. If you are trying to stay with cannon, because you ultimately want to purchase future supplements and use them in your game, for them to be useful you have to 'game within the setting'. The more you deviate from cannon the less useful the gaming material becomes. As a DM I'd rather be handed a set of guidelines and possibilities. "Over there is this mountain range, and here is this fortress, which contains X number of people, and Y number of important NPC's, and the mountains have Z ore which is shipped to A, B, and C." I find that information useful. With that information I could begin an adventure. If you throw in some possibilities - such as "the mountain range has X, Y, and Z as possible threats" - then throw in information about those threats... I am set to go. I am also a fan of the setting, though, and love the lore. Of course, I am not convinced that the two cannot mix together in a way that pleases both sides equally.
Meldread 03-02-08, 04:17 PM	Canon material says he's a retired sage whose behind-the-scenes machinations aren't known except as rumours to sages and highly placed people, who spends much of his time researching other planes and by default isn't in if PCs try to find him. What would be inauthentic would be if he took 'five seconds of his time to handle the problem, and save hundreds of lives in the process', which has no basis in Realmslore. Sure, it says that in the FRCS, then you flip open a novel - where just about everyone learns about Elminster - and you are immediately privy to most of those behind the scenes machinations. Regardless of what the source book says, that introduces a certain level of expectations on behalf of players when he is introduced into a game. That isn't bad if a DM and his group wants Elminster to be highly involved as an epic level wizard. However, it virtually precludes any involvement as the 'sage' - the wise old man who gives advise. Sure, you could try and use him that way as well. If you attempted to do that, however, then he'd have to be home, then he'd have to have a very good reason (that wasn't lame) as to why he can't directly handle it himself. If Zhents are attacking Shadowdale, Elminster isn't going to sit in his home and say, "Oh boy... where are those bloody adventurers when you need them?" He's going to step outside, blow them to bits, and quietly go back inside to his reading and relaxation. If you speak to him and tell him of a goblin chieftain who has gotten his hands on an artifact that is allowing him to slaughter villagers and raise them as undead to fuel his army, Elminster is going to have to have a good reason to sit in his tower instead of just teleporting to the Goblin Chieftain, zapping him, and taking the artifact away. In his current capacity he can be used however a DM desires. I believe that if they are going to put an NPC in a source book (especially if they stat out the NPC) then he should be an NPC that anyone can use in their campaign. In 3E Elminster was not useful to the vast majority of DM's - in 4E - in Elminster's new capacity - he is useful to a much larger group of DM's. Although, I will go back to one of my previous points made to Alediran. Having Elminster as the crippled old man by default is good for DM's because it gives them a shield against fanboys. Want to see how rabid they are? Just post a thread asking how you could go about killing Elminster, or ask opinions on the duex ex machina used to get him out of the way for some of the recent super adventure modules.
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 05:05 PM	And the name of the year the 4e FR setting begins in - "The Year of the Ageless One" - speaks volumes about how well known he is and the way in which people will view him. -Can you share with me where exactly it means that the 'Ageless One' is Elminster, and not any of the other various NPCs who are running around? -Even if this is indeed alluding to Elminster- and I think there is not enough evidence to come to this conclusion- what I stated still stands. Elminster is (speaking about right now) a retired and somewhat crazy sage, who lives in Shadowdale. He is not a worldwide celebrity.
Faraer 03-02-08, 05:29 PM	However, it virtually precludes any involvement as the 'sage' - the wise old man who gives advise.I've read far more instances of people using Elminster this way than any other.If Zhents are attacking Shadowdale, Elminster isn't going to sit in his home and say, "Oh boy... where are those bloody adventurers when you need them?" He's going to step outside, blow them to bits, and quietly go back inside to his reading and relaxation.If he's around, he's going to work with adventurers and dalesmen to defend the dale with minimal loss of life. We have multiple instances of how this works. Elminster is neither magically nor politically able to do as you simplistically suggest (and he didn't live so long by being so easy to lure into traps).In 3E Elminster was not useful to the vast majority of DM's - in 4E - in Elminster's new capacity - he is useful to a much larger group of DM's.I don't know where you get this impression at all, let alone so definitely.
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 05:40 PM	I don't know where you get this impression at all, let alone so definitely. -Agreed. Nothing stated thus far says that Elminster will stop his meddling, and all of the other qualities he has that turns people off from him. Elminster is, specifically, "still...a powerful figure". -And note, I don't like Elminster, so 'fanboyism' does not apply here.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 06:25 PM	I'm not taking sides on this one, because either way I feel I lose something. I am not sure I agree with your premise that it might be bad. Ultimately they are making a game setting for DM's to use as they see fit. I embrace the design philosophy that puts the power into our (the DM's) hands. Of course, like everyone else here, I also like the setting - I like the lore. So for me personally, I want to have my cake and eat it too.Unfortunely, that is exactly the way I feel as well. While I no longer have to worry as much about how different my Realms was becoming from the 'real' one, a small part of me still likes that there IS a 'real' one to look to. Elminster's new role sounds too much like Halaster's old one - for all we know, Hal might be in El's head as well. As for me, I won't change him from what he was, just like I won't change Halaster - he's still there, in Undermountain... waiting. :devil: But you see, thats not 'right'; its my personal campaign. Its good for me, but I wouldn't want to force that on the canon Realms. Its almost as if we lost our 'conscious' - that little dude who stands on your shoulder, wagging his finger when you do something 'weird' to the Realms. I really have to see more of this new setting before I can make a final judgement, but I'm just not getting this part about a 'lore-free' setting. maybe its all just smoke and mirrors... I hope so. I don't even see how this makes the usefulness of El in a campaign ANY different - you can just say he is having a 'lucid' moment and will risk casting a spell. Basically, all you've done is nerf him so the 'kiddies' won't cry because he is "cooler then them". It just all seems so... pointless. :(
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 06:35 PM	Elminster's new role sounds too much like Halaster's old one - for all we know, Hal might be in El's head as well. -That is certainly possible. Halaster's 'shattered soul' did get all over the place. I really have to see more of this new setting before I can make a final judgement, but I'm just not getting this part about a 'lore-free' setting. maybe its all just smoke and mirrors... I hope so. -It is, in the fact that the 4e Realms make it easier for a DM to run a campaign. Nothing is actually changing, except for the perceptions and what people are saying about the setting being playable- ignoring the geographic/social/chronological changes taking places in the setting, of course. DMs are still going to have to learn who various NPCs are, what the different kingdoms, city-states, and so on are like, the different organizations that exist, how the history of Faerūn's various settlements effect their current situations, and so on. What is really changing? I don't even see how this makes the usefulness of El in a campaign ANY different - you can just say he is having a 'lucid' moment and will risk casting a spell. Basically, all you've done is nerf him so the 'kiddies' won't cry because he is "cooler then them". -See above. It just all seems so... pointless. :( -Come on. Jump in my Volkswagon Bus, from the other thread. I'm driving around the threads, organizing a road trip. We can all go find a maharishi, dabble with transcendentalism, and find enlightenment, making everything better.
selunatic2397 03-02-08, 06:37 PM	I will agree with you Marcus, the entire treatment of El does seem pointless to me as well. But, I don't think there will be anyway to keep either side of the debate happy. WOTC is in a kinda lose/lose situation with El. Oh Well, all I can say is that in the end it won't impact my campaign in any way, shape, or form. :)
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 06:40 PM	LOL I just spend too much time thinking about logical reasons for everything, when really, all it comes down to in most cases, is that a lot of bad decisions were made. Be it now, or twenty years ago. I just hope then didn't kill my hobby - if I didn't have this to keep me busy, I'd be bored out of my mind. Maybe even have to get a job... :hides:
selunatic2397 03-02-08, 06:47 PM	Lukily my gaming store has lowered the prices on used 1ED books, so my hobby is still safe! :D
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 06:56 PM	Lukily my gaming store has lowered the prices on used 1ED books, so my hobby is still safe! :D -Where do you live, for them to still be selling 1st Edition books?
selunatic2397 03-02-08, 06:58 PM	Where the radioactive tumble weeds roam! Over in Washington State! Google "Radioactive Tumbleweeds" for a clue on my locale! :D
Dark Wizard 03-02-08, 07:14 PM	WotC could have just as easily played up his pre-existing borderline sanity and feelings of his actual age creeping up on him (which is what Greenwood started doing anyway). Drop the Chosen template, re-stat him to a lower level and the effect would be nearly identical. Otherwise actually kill him to really get the point across that we're not in old Faerun anymore. The mad wizard concept (especially one inhabited by multiple personalities) feels played out for some reason. I feel there is a reaction in the Killing Elminster/Drizzt/etc. threads because there is such a strong initial hatred of these characters by certain posters (if not the OP, then subsequent posters). Where there is one polarity, the opposite will arise to counter it. Either way, all of those threads retread arguments made a million times. This forum really just needs a Guide to NPCs (as in killing them), written by Greenwood and Salvatore so it will be definitive. Then maybe most of the discussion here can focus on different topics. Probably not, people will always crave more.
Meldread 03-02-08, 08:45 PM	But you see, thats not 'right'; its my personal campaign. Its good for me, but I wouldn't want to force that on the canon Realms. What I am hoping is achieved is a balance. The world needs an underlying sense of consistency and unity. It needs that certain something that just makes it all come together and feel real. Yet, at the same time, for the purpose of the game and the many different needs of DM's everywhere, it needs a flexibility that can be shaped and molded to individual desires and wishes. Here is what I proposed a while back, and I still stand by it as the best idea: In the 4E FRCS just give us the world. I want details on the kingdoms and critical areas. I want enough information where I can open it up, close my eyes, and point to a place on the map, be able to flip to the correct page with the relevant information, and begin to outline an adventure or a campaign. Additionally, a detailed list of major organizations is also a must - it is the various political groups that make the Realm's what it is more than anything else. Then take a page out of the Eberron Book, and keep the setting frozen in time and do not advance the time line at all. Release area source books, such as the Unapproachable East, all set on the same timeframe. Then with the novels have each author detail their changes to the setting, and write it up in PDF format. Then sell the PDF's for like $5. That way, if you want to incorporate what happened in a novel within your campaign, you can purchase the PDF and do so. Those of us who are just lore junkies would purchase it simply... because... we need it. Learn from Martha Stewart. She uses her TV show to promote her products and her magazine. She then uses her magazine to promote her products and her TV show. Then she uses her products to promote her TV show and her magazine - a type of circular marketing. If you buy a novel set in the Forgotten Realm's, it should promote the Campaign Setting, the PDF and 4E. If you buy the Campaign Setting it should promote the novels, the PDF's and 4E. If you buy 4E it should promote the Campaign Setting, the Novels and the PDF's... you get the idea. However, in the end to enjoy the novels you shouldn't need to know about the Campaign Setting. To enjoy the campaign setting you shouldn't have to read the novels. To enjoy the lore in the PDF's you shouldn't have to play 4E, and to enjoy 4E you shouldn't have to play in the Realm's. This is good for DM's because it allows us to decide what is admissible in our games and what is not. If we do not want a certain event to take place then we can disallow it while still keeping everything on the table. For novel authors this is good as well as it gives them slightly more freedom, although I would still argue that they keep the continuity of the setting in mind when they write just as they do currently. That way a DM could purchase all the PDF's and use them if he or she wants. Ultimately, though, it is WotC that benefits the most because they get to turn us into a money machine that just keeps on giving and giving like lemmings. Anyway just to be clear: The Campaign Setting should be focused on giving the DM's options and possibilities for running a game. The 'core' books should be designed with that in mind – unprohibited options and possibilities - those should be the ideal buzzwords. The Novels should be focused on telling a story and making the world come alive. The PDF's should be about the deeper lore of the setting. The 4E Rules should be just that - rules to use with the game. Its almost as if we lost our 'conscious' - that little dude who stands on your shoulder, wagging his finger when you do something 'weird' to the Realms. Ha. I killed that little b*stard a long time ago. Life is so much better without his constant nagging. :P
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 02:21 AM	Where the radioactive tumble weeds roam! Over in Washington State! Google "Radioactive Tumbleweeds" for a clue on my locale! :D :bored: -Eh? Oh... I feel there is a reaction in the Killing Elminster/Drizzt/etc. threads because there is such a strong initial hatred of these characters by certain posters (if not the OP, then subsequent posters). Where there is one polarity, the opposite will arise to counter it. -I can speak from personal experience that much of the reaction in opposition of killing said NPCs isn't because of a strong like of said NPCs. As I have mentioned elsewhere, I don't like Elminster too much. I don't like a lot of Ed Greenwood's work. I don't like Drizzt too much (I like him more than Elminster, however). I don't like a lot of R.A. Salvatore's work too much. However, invariably, I chime in in opposition of killing said NPCs in such threads, because most of the time, the OP has very superficial reasons for doing so, does not completely understand the characters in question, or some such, to that effect. It's more reactive than actual like of the character(s). This forum really just needs a Guide to NPCs (as in killing them), written by Greenwood and Salvatore so it will be definitive. Then maybe most of the discussion here can focus on different topics. Probably not, people will always crave more. -Alediran was talking to me about doing just that. Creating a short 'guide' to using high-level characters in a way not to upset one's campaign. If you are interested in doing this with him- I, myself, don't have the time, nor the interest, truthfully- you might want to contact him.
Khaelieth 03-03-08, 06:40 AM	it just seems unnecessary to me. i think "Why?" describes 4th ed Realms Lore quite aptly by now.
Jiggawha 03-03-08, 12:50 PM	he still has some artifacts around
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 01:36 PM	Running Commentary - And the name of the year the 4e FR setting begins in - "The Year of the Ageless One" - speaks volumes about how well known he is and the way in which people will view him. Well, we don't know that the year name refers to Elminster.:) I liked it back when the year names weren't taken so literally by the design team.
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 03:21 PM	I liked it back when the year names weren't taken so literally by the design team. -Every so often was best. That demonstrated that the seers were more or less right, but yet fallable. -Plus, it's more interesting to see what they have in mind during the 'Year of the Jasmal Blade'. I mean, we all kinda already know what's in store for the 'Year of the Dracorage', and the 'Year of the Rogue Dragons'. ;)
MarkusTay63 03-05-08, 02:16 AM	Didn't we just get over The Year of Perpetual RSE's? :confused:
Lord Karsus 03-05-08, 02:20 AM	Didn't we just get over The Year of Perpetual RSE's? :confused: -Yeah. We are currently in the 'Year of the Rich Bakers'. ;)
MarkusTay63 03-05-08, 03:59 AM	Rich Bakers? I guess pastries and breads are doing well, this year. :rolleyes: ;) :P
Lord Karsus 03-05-08, 04:37 AM	Rich Bakers? I guess pastries and breads are doing well, this year. :rolleyes: -I was originally going to say, 'Year of the Wealthy Pastry Chefs', but I didn't think anyone would get that reference.
sfdragon 03-05-08, 05:56 AM	id have to disagree about something on El, you would know who he is, but more than likely you wouldn't know what he looks like to even find him...
Alediran 03-05-08, 07:44 AM	Mmmmmhhhhh, caaaaaaaakeeeeeee.
Zanan 03-05-08, 09:30 AM	Well, while many would object ... given his power level and probably some influx of equally powerful people ... I could have foreseen his ascendence to some sort of deific stature, however humble. And to ease the pain of the Elminster bashers, a different name could have been used.
ShadezofDis 03-05-08, 11:26 AM	In the end, it empowers the DM and encourages the use of Elminster in whatever capacity that a DM and his group desires. That already totally and completely existed. Totally and completely. So to say that 4E somehow "cures" a "problem" is. . . well. . . wrong. :D
ShadezofDis 03-05-08, 11:29 AM	The point of these Lore books, according to Ed, is to do the hard and often unglamorous work of setting up trade routes, weather patterns and political systems, and then let DMs run wild with their own imaginative ideas. . . . Well. . . I wish they would do that then. I mean, I REALLY, REALLY wish they would do that. They haven't though, they've barely given nods towards trade routes, weather patterns and political systems. In fact, that's what most of my prep work involves, setting up trade routes, ignoring weather (:P ) and setting up the political and legal systems.
18DELTA 03-05-08, 11:30 AM	I liked it back when the year names weren't taken so literally by the design team. -Here, here.:tiphat: 18DELTA:dragon:
Lord Karsus 03-05-08, 11:31 AM	That already totally and completely existed. Totally and completely. So to say that 4E somehow "cures" a "problem" is. . . well. . . wrong. :D -As I've said before, asides for changing the actual geography of the setting, the politics of the setting, and playing fundamentals like that, 4e isn't doing most of what it promises. All of the lore that exists now still exists in the future, on top of whatever new lore is created.
ShadezofDis 03-05-08, 11:49 AM	-As I've said before, asides for changing the actual geography of the setting, the politics of the setting, and playing fundamentals like that, 4e isn't doing most of what it promises. All of the lore that exists now still exists in the future, on top of whatever new lore is created. And, for myself, as a DM, 4e doesn't seem like it will help me write campaigns, it looks like it will be easier for me to write encounters. I don't care about making encounters easier to write, I care about making campaigns easier to write. As in, what happens when the PCs remove the goblin threat from the western area of the barony? Is that barony particularly strong? Particularly weak? Do the leaders of the area tend to like adventurers or view them as annoyances that are sometimes useful? With the goblin threat removed does that mean there are more natural resources to develop? Does this increase the wealth of the barony? These are the types of questions that ACTUALLY help me write a game and since I have to make up ALL of it I end up taking up to 6 months to prep a campaign (if not more). Encounters are easy, the world is hard.
Lord Karsus 03-05-08, 11:52 AM	Encounters are easy, the world is hard. -Amen.
ShadezofDis 03-05-08, 12:07 PM	Oh, I'd also like to state that I'd LOVE to see a timeline freeze (well, not as much with 4e but it'd still be a correct step IMO) so that they could, well, make the Realms. Every DM is absolutely free to change the Realms and if they have annoying players, well, then it's time to work on your people skills (or grow a set and tell them to shut up or pony up to DMing). Thus, it's not a problem if they actually detailed the setting, instead of giving us vague, nigh unto useless material (So Turmish is a Republic and is mainly controlled by Merchant Houses. . . well . . . that's cool and all but who the hell are they and what do they do? Oh, you mean I get to make that all up. In a land with around 1.7 million people. . . ok. . . thanks n stuff) So, I'm totally in favor of a time freeze and an honestly detailed treatment of the Forgotten Realms. Unfortunately that isn't likely to happen (gotta have action!) and it's already post when I'd really find that information useful. Thankfully we still have each other. :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-05-08, 12:13 PM	They haven't though, they've barely given nods towards trade routes, weather patterns and political systems. No, because they are too busy (literally) bringing back long lost civilizations.:rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-05-08, 12:16 PM	Thus, it's not a problem if they actually detailed the setting, instead of giving us vague, nigh unto useless material (So Turmish is a Republic and is mainly controlled by Merchant Houses. . . well . . . that's cool and all but who the hell are they and what do they do? Oh, you mean I get to make that all up. In a land with around 1.7 million people. . . ok. . . thanks n stuff) So, I'm totally in favor of a time freeze and an honestly detailed treatment of the Forgotten Realms. Unfortunately that isn't likely to happen (gotta have action!) and it's already post when I'd really find that information useful. Remember, though, that making certain parts of the setting super-detailed gave rise to the complaint that the amount of detail was "overwhelming" and newer players were afraid to sift through it all. Yet, some of the most detailed parts of the setting suffered the least drastic changes, apparently.
ShadezofDis 03-05-08, 12:33 PM	Remember, though, that making certain parts of the setting super-detailed gave rise to the complaint that the amount of detail was "overwhelming" and newer players were afraid to sift through it all. I know this isn't a very nice thing to say, but screw the players. Screw them. They aren't the ones spending months on end to make a setting that actually seems realistic. They aren't the ones saying "Well, if my PCs do X then I'll need to know Y and Z, or at least have something vague out there so I don't flub it." Perhaps I DM more "loose" than everyone else, I mean, I'm all about the roleplaying experience being more akin to adlib acting than anything else and I want my PCs to have actual goals and desires. It does take time, so for the first few adventures I tend to lead them by the hand but once they have a real feel for their characters then I want them to do what their characters want to do. Dang, I'm getting all Macelike here, I'm gonna stop. :D Yet, some of the most detailed parts of the setting suffered the least drastic changes, apparently. ::shrugs:: I really won't be surprised by anything at this point.
ShadezofDis 03-05-08, 12:35 PM	No, because they are too busy (literally) bringing back long lost civilizations.:rolleyes: Well, you need to have those civilizations back if you're going to make trade routes to and from them. . . or something.:rolleyes: Do you like King Arthur? Football? Old Cartoons? Need a good laugh? Check THIS out! Bwahahaha, I haven't even clicked on the link but I remember that cartoon! Awesome stuff. You earn my "hero for the day" award. :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-05-08, 12:58 PM	I know this isn't a very nice thing to say, but screw the players. Screw them. The problem isn't so much that that statement isn't nice, it's that it's not good for business. :) Sadly, there is a perception out there (and I'm NOT saying I agree with it) that the FR setting is "hard to get into" because of all the detail. And not only that, but WotC apparently wants anyone to be about to pluck the new FRCG off the shelf and run an FR game straight away, with little to no knowledge about the setting beforehand. So, when I say "players", I kind of mean potential DMs, too.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-05-08, 12:59 PM	Bwahahaha, I haven't even clicked on the link but I remember that cartoon! Awesome stuff. You earn my "hero for the day" award. :D Hooray!:D Glad you liked it, I thought it was FUN-NY!:rofl:
ShadezofDis 03-05-08, 01:17 PM	The problem isn't so much that that statement isn't nice, it's that it's not good for business. :) I know. :( It's a shame too. Target audiences get me down (I'm looking at you hollywood). Sadly, there is a perception out there (and I'm NOT saying I agree with it) that the FR setting is "hard to get into" because of all the detail. And not only that, but WotC apparently wants anyone to be about to pluck the new FRCG off the shelf and run an FR game straight away, with little to no knowledge about the setting beforehand. So, when I say "players", I kind of mean potential DMs, too.:) Yeah, I just find that an unrealistic expectation though. I don't know of many RPGs that think it's a good idea to run a game before you play it (and that certainly looks like the ideal for 4e). You know, overall this feels like new software, like it's going to take a good year after release to work the big bugs out. I just wish I had some faith that the material would be decent and actually useful (to me anyhow *g*).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-05-08, 01:30 PM	And of course, the idea that too much lore is a problem seems a little contradictory when some of the most detailed places apparently haven't changed that much (like Waterdeep, Cormyr), and are considered popular and the most reminiscent of what could be called "the true Realms experience". If the most detailed areas were so popular, does that mean the idea about lore being burdensome and overwhelming isn't quite as true as some people are making it out to be?
ShadezofDis 03-05-08, 01:38 PM	And of course, the idea that too much lore is a problem seems a little contradictory when some of the most detailed places apparently haven't changed that much (like Waterdeep, Cormyr), and are considered popular and the most reminiscent of what could be called "the true Realms experience". If the most detailed areas were so popular, does that mean the idea about lore being burdensome and overwhelming isn't quite as true as some people are making it out to be? I've never found the lore burdensome or overwhelming. Quite the opposite in fact. If I don't have to make something up, or if there are things detailed that are similar to what I need, then I'm all for it. I may end up changing things, but changing things is easier than making up everything. At least it is for myself.
Kiioro 03-05-08, 04:15 PM	Sadly, there is a perception out there (and I'm NOT saying I agree with it) that the FR setting is "hard to get into" because of all the detail. And not only that, but WotC apparently wants anyone to be about to pluck the new FRCG off the shelf and run an FR game straight away, with little to no knowledge about the setting beforehand. So, when I say "players", I kind of mean potential DMs, too.:) I've never seen a problem with this. I opened my first Forgotten Realms book less than 8 months ago. I was marveled with all that existed and read every book I could get my hands on, I was eager to help the DM if he forgot a detail and I could help him. But if the canon story ruined the campaign or any ideas the DM had, he'd simply state "that doesn't exist", that'd be it. No fuss. We never came across Drizzt or Elminster nor anyone even acquainted with a famous NPC and it was a great game until the DM got lucky and went to Japan. If the canon story changed, those of us who noticed it, gladly accepted it because we were living our game, not "what is stated in p. 98 of Races of Faerūn" and whatnot. If it's too hard to remember it all, just f*****g think for yourself and adapt the material. Alas, it's too late now, for all has changed.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 06:49 AM	-If I recall correctly, I believe that much of what Ed Greenwood was going to be doing was trade routes, economics, and all of that stuff, Shadez.
ShadezofDis 03-06-08, 08:21 AM	-If I recall correctly, I believe that much of what Ed Greenwood was going to be doing was trade routes, economics, and all of that stuff, Shadez. Was? As in was for 4e? Or as in "long ago and far away in a land called TSR"? And that's always been the impression that I got, Ed has a lot of details that he'd love to share but that bean counters say no to putting out.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 08:28 AM	Was? As in was for 4e? Or as in "long ago and far away in a land called TSR"? And that's always been the impression that I got, Ed has a lot of details that he'd love to share but that bean counters say no to putting out. -4e. Sorry for the ambiguity.
Stigger 03-06-08, 08:46 AM	Bah! is all I have to say on the subject.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 09:04 AM	-Concise. Straight to the point. Very good.
Stigger 03-06-08, 09:14 AM	I do my best.
Neko_the_Cat 03-06-08, 09:29 AM	I've never seen a problem with this. I opened my first Forgotten Realms book less than 8 months ago. I was marveled with all that existed and read every book I could get my hands on, I was eager to help the DM if he forgot a detail and I could help him. But if the canon story ruined the campaign or any ideas the DM had, he'd simply state "that doesn't exist", that'd be it. No fuss. Indeed. If you talked about the French Settings, I like very much Forgotten Realms novels and to be a DM with my friends. As DM, my goal is PC & DM enjoy to play in the world of Forgotten Realms or others Realms in Dungeons & Dragons's world. However, I know I am in a lost corner in the world and in France, but I really don't understand why do we have the spellplague, Elminster who became like Leto II in dune, the Disappearance of the seven sisters (I was already very sad with the new of the death of Khelben Blackstaff...), the death of Mystra/Midnight? Where is the great Ao? It's the Chaos in Toril!...:P
ShadezofDis 03-06-08, 09:47 AM	-4e. Sorry for the ambiguity. No problem. That's actually the first thing that's made me go "Hmmm. . . maybe picking up some of the 4e stuff might not be so bad." I mean, I'll take anything and bend it to my devices. :D I do my best. And I, for one, have missed it. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 10:59 AM	I'd like to point out, in case it isn't clear, that I do NOT personally believe large amounts of lore are "burdensome". In fact, I believe that if one truly is interested in a setting, then disgesting the lore about it will be fun, not a chore. But sadly, people on the internet have been complaining a lot, lately, that getting into the setting is too hard, and the 4E FR design team is buying that.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 11:02 AM	And that's always been the impression that I got, Ed has a lot of details that he'd love to share but that bean counters say no to putting out. I agree with that...although, he shares a lot of details on his thread in Candlekeep.:)
ShadezofDis 03-06-08, 11:03 AM	I agree with that...although, he shares a lot of details on his thread in Candlekeep.:) Yep, he sure does and it's quite handy. :)
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 11:11 AM	I'd like to point out, in case it isn't clear, that I do NOT personally believe large amounts of lore are "burdensome". In fact, I believe that if one truly is interested in a setting, then disgesting the lore about it will be fun, not a chore. But sadly, people on the internet have been complaining a lot, lately, that getting into the setting is too hard, and the 4E FR design team is buying that. -All points made are 100% true.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 11:14 AM	-All points made are 100% true. Was there ever any doubt?:P ;)
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 11:56 AM	-No, no there was not.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 12:01 PM	-No, no there was not. *raises her chin with PRIDE*:D
Another Gnome 03-06-08, 12:19 PM	To point out again, very little of existing lore is actually written out of the setting with 4E. The time jump simply puts both veterans and newcomers on the same starting line when they head out to explore the new Realms.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 12:34 PM	*raises her chin with PRIDE*:D :: Begins the Victory Fanfare music ::
Alediran 03-06-08, 02:21 PM	:: Begins the Victory Fanfare music :: :: Finishes with the ending of Tchaikovsky's Overture 1812 ::
Faraer 03-06-08, 04:37 PM	The point of these Lore books, according to Ed, is to do the hard and often unglamorous work of setting up trade routes, weather patterns and political systems, and then let DMs run wild with their own imaginative ideas.It's surprising that Wizards would want to publish information that 'forces' DMs to get their head around detailed economic and political systems, but positive if it happens, though one wishes TSR and Wizards had been as receptive for the 20 years Ed tried to publish it about the 14th-century Realms and succeeded only in dribs and drabs.And not only that, but WotC apparently wants anyone to be about to pluck the new FRCG off the shelf and run an FR game straight away, with little to no knowledge about the setting beforehand.This is apparently being accomplished partly by narrowing the focus of the book to give more detailed, 'useable' (whatever that means to the current designers) information about a smaller campaign region. That much is sensible, though of course unrelated to the setting changes. Though one wonders how they're going to publish any kind of sustained product line without giving in to requests to detail other aspects of the new Realms equally. Other, so far largely mysterious measures are being taken to make knowing more detailed lore more unnecessary, or more obviously unnecessary, than it is now.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 04:59 PM	Other, so far largely mysterious measures are being taken to make knowing more detailed lore more unnecessary, or more obviously unnecessary, than it is now. -The idea that things will be "better" in regards to the problem that large amounts of information are needed to play in the setting (which is, in my opinion, nonsense, but...) is nothing but 'smoke and mirrors', on part of the design and PR people.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 06:26 PM	Though one wonders how they're going to publish any kind of sustained product line without giving in to requests to detail other aspects of the new Realms equally. I wonder about that, myself, because it will begin this cycle all over again--people will clamor for detail...then later, people will complain that the amount of detail is overwhelming.:rolleyes: It all raises the question, "How much detail is too much for the typical player?" I agree with LK, I also suspect that there is some "smoke and mirrors" going on here, because (as I've stated more than once) the rationale behind the setting changes in relation to the actual changes is sometimes contradictory...
Faraer 03-06-08, 06:48 PM	-The idea that things will be "better" in regards to the problem that large amounts of information are needed to play in the setting (which is, in my opinion, nonsense, but...) is nothing but 'smoke and mirrors', on part of the design and PR people.It wouldn't surprise me. Or if not smoke and mirrors, an intention they hadn't yet quite worked out how to implement.
Dark Wizard 03-06-08, 11:11 PM	Over two years of work and still a lot of sorting through stuff and figuring things out. That's the impression I get from 4E Realms.
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 06:20 AM	I wonder about that, myself, because it will begin this cycle all over again--people will clamor for detail...then later, people will complain that the amount of detail is overwhelming.:rolleyes: It all raises the question, "How much detail is too much for the typical player?" -It's a neverending cycle, as someone I know has mentioned. In his view, things should be periodically rebooted, as to remove the "build-up" of "clutter". I wholly disagree with this notion, but...
Faraer 03-07-08, 04:36 PM	This 'clutter' is Ed's project of progressively detailing the Realms. A company that deliberately caps that detail is -- regardless of content and quality, of brand management and other commercial concerns -- doing the opposite of what, as caretakers of the Realms, Ed Greenwood and I want them to do.
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 01:22 AM	This 'clutter' is Ed's project of progressively detailing the Realms. A company that deliberately caps that detail is -- regardless of content and quality, of brand management and other commercial concerns -- doing the opposite of what, as caretakers of the Realms, Ed Greenwood and I want them to do. -Ultimatley, the Forgotten Realms is one of a few settings for the Dungeons and Dragons game. That is all. If, by whatever strange feedback pollers working for WotC get back, detail is somehow bad for the setting, then it gets dealt with in a manner that allows the product to sell better. And, it's especially sad when a great deal of these negative opinions are based on poor formulative experiences that don't properly or wholly reflect the setting as a whole.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 03-08-08, 03:23 AM	Amen