Non-elven Mythals the last save havens in 4E? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Non-elven Mythals the last save havens in 4E? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
danielmayer
09-29-07, 07:13 AM Hi, all,
as the mythals are a hot topics in the last months, I wanted to ask about 4E: In the 3.5E-source, it was told that "all true elven mythals are anchored and have a capstone". So when magic goes down "fully", all mythals that are anchored should be destroyed/dispelled completely, right? Most mythals went wrong when magic did not function properly, but if it goes down completely...?

Another thing may be the non-anchored mythals. What's with them? Do they remain? Especially with a capstone, these may function like a mythallar, and so produce the magical field by themselves?

So when Aaerevin has finished his work in LMT, the mythal goes down completely? :D kind of depressing, isn't it...

May be just a request for spoiling on a specific question in magic ;) It's kind of horrible to read the different 4e-threads...
dragonheart
09-29-07, 10:29 AM because all mythals are epic magic and as such beyond the power of the weave they are not/shuld not be destroyed when the weave and shadow weave flare and die and a new set of rules are established. They are likely to be somewhat "disturbed" by this however. Sadly untill we see what the 4e rules for magic are we can't really say what form the disturbances/disruptions are likely to take.
GothicDan
09-29-07, 03:28 PM Epic Spells are still governed by the Weave. True Dweomers were in 2E, and that's basically what Epic Spells are.
danielmayer
09-29-07, 05:55 PM Now I just ask because of that specific "anchored". If they are not, they should provide their magical field by themselves or by the capstone whatever.
But *if* they are anchored, they should be pretty down in 4E... So in one moment, all elven mythals down... interesting idea.
What with mythallars. After they aren't covered by "canon" rules anymore, how are they treated? Mr. Shadow keeps his flying city or gets that down after all?
Buh, I really don't know if FR *is* 4E-compatible...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
09-29-07, 08:01 PM So when Aaerevin has finished his work in LMT, the mythal goes down completely? :D kind of depressing, isn't it...

No it's not. I could barely stand that series.
dragonheart
09-30-07, 11:22 AM WHile I recognize that epic magic is the 3e version of true dweomers which were weave based (in some way - I never looked closely at that lore at the time), Its clear to me from the actual events of cannon that in major ways the epic/elven high magic is not weave based though it may well be weave linked. the main evidence for this is the downfall of netheril. when the weave temorarily fails (for however long that is) the weave based 10th+ level spells of the Netherese including their mythallars fail but the epic magic/elven high magic mythals and the epic magic of artifacts does not. effectively then epic magic has some sort of tie in to magic that is deeper/stronger/whatever than the weave link of 0-9th level (or higher during the time of Netheril). While a Mythal may make use of the weave to create its effects its power base/source is not the weave but some other/deeper/stronger connection. It is this stronger connection that should allow any epic magic based material to pass through the spell plague essentially untouched or only minimally altered.

while this is obviously cannon my explaination for this is:
the gods draw their power from Ao and their believers, this makes AO the actual power source behind Mystra and the weave. what Epic magic does is to directly connect to Ao for the powerbase and then link "sideways" into the weave for the effects produced.

Mythals in particular, and epic magic in general, also always draw on the life forces of the casters - sometimes taking their life in the casting. this provides a second "powerbase" to hold the casting togther through the periods of no-weave so the mythals should make it past the spellplague intact if somewhat altered and potentiially corupted in small ways. so we can possibly have fun wiht them in 4e.
GothicDan
09-30-07, 11:41 AM Who said the Epic/Elven magics didn't fail...? *blinks*
MarkusTay63
09-30-07, 12:45 PM The first known canon 'High Magic' ritual took place outside of Realmspace, in Faerie, although it is yet to be seen if that Faerie is the same as the 4e Feywild (probably just a locale within it). From that we can surmise that the original form of High Magic did NOT need the Weave.

Perhaps, after Karsus's blunder, or some earlier yet similar incident, Mystra/Mystrl changed the rules and the Elves were forced to adapt their castings to the new rules.

Elves, being such long-lived and secretive bast... critters, would still have records of their ancient traditions, and would definately be the ones to most quickly adapt to a 'Weavless Toril'.

Thats not to say that some other races wouldn't also have their own forms (the Creator races? Most especially the Fey?), but the Elves would be in the strongest position to adapt.

Also, in any post-apocalyptic scenario, usually within one, maybe two generations all forms of the old 'science' (in this case magic) is forgotten, and intelligent beings are reduced to a primitive state once again.

Elves, who live 1000 years, would be almost completely unaffected by such RSEs, at least as far as their tech (magic) goes. Remember that many Netherese were reduced to babarism after the fall of Netheril, so this is something that has happened to humanity numerous times in the past.

Isn't there even some mention of a human civilization as far back as the Sundering, or even earlier? I remember something about that, probably from the discussion's of Shavarash and some of the inconsistencies surrounding him. :confused:

Sadly, the only reason I can come up with that the Elves would be in a pickle nearly as bad as everyone else is that Evermeet gets 'nuked', which is a strong possibility with all the major setting retcons that seem on the horizon.
GothicDan
09-30-07, 12:49 PM Normally I'd say the Seldarine would be strong enough to protect Evermeet, but with how they're so gleefully smashing Good into the ground...
MarkusTay63
09-30-07, 01:01 PM Yes, you are correct, but unless Corellon does some major 'deific mojo', I just don't see it. Especially with some of the wierder theories being thrown around about the world being re-formed completely. There is some hope, because if Corellon steps up and takes over Elven magic (which he CAN do in the absence of Mystra), Evermeet may yet be spared.

Personally, I'd rather see Evermeet returned to Faerie or Arvandor (two places that have been offered as possible origin-points for the island), with a built-in Elven-attuned portal somewhere 'to the west', just to keep the flavor.

I know it's not Middle-Earth, but I think it would be cool if Elves, in their 'old age', begin to yearn for 'home', which would trigger the effect. Something akin to the mists in Ravenloft - Humans and other races would be COMPLETELY unable to do this (which is how Evermeet should have remained - inviolate).

With all this talk of Eladrin, I fear for the Elves in 4e. Despite all the kidding I do about them here on these boards, they are a vital and integral part of FR, and I would rather see Evermeet moved and become more mysterious, then just destroyed in a completely non-creative way.

BTW, you do agree with me, Dan, that Elves do not need the weave, right? They may use it now, but the proof shows that they are capable of casting powerful magics without it.
GothicDan
09-30-07, 02:55 PM They don't, but who knows what raw magic in Abeir-Toril is like? It just might not be the same as it is in other Crystal Spheres...
MarkusTay63
09-30-07, 03:01 PM According to Karsus, it's kind of like Jello. ;)

Maybe Bill Cosby should be the new god of Magic in 4e FR. :dancin:
GothicDan
09-30-07, 03:20 PM I love me some Cosby.
dragonheart
09-30-07, 05:01 PM Who said the Epic/Elven magics didn't fail...? *blinks*
well now lets see
mythallars and other effects powered by 10th+ weave based magic failed with the fall of Netheril and the short end of the weave but I know of no lore suggesting that things likethe mythal around Evereska or that which supports Waterdeep (both cast before the fall) failed. Had waterdeep's mythal failed we would have a huge pit thre now or a deep bay not a city. Similarly my understanding is that no artifacts created with 10th+ weave based magic surrvived the fall of Nethril while many other (apparently either deificly created or epic magic based) artifacts survived unharmed and at full power. I don't know about you but that seems to me to be pretty clear evience that epic based magics didn't fail when the weave died breifly at the fall of magic. If that is true then they should not fail wiht the death of the weave entering 4e either.
GothicDan
09-30-07, 05:13 PM I don't think so at all. I think it's just assumed that ALL magics did, and that it would have been needlessly tedious to have given every circumstance of magic that failed temporarily.
MarkusTay63
09-30-07, 06:23 PM The Mythal in Undermountain DID fail when Karsus cast his ebil spell. The Sargauth Enclave was destroyed, and the entire place came tumbling down. Since then, Skullport was built in the deserted and partially collapsed cavern.

If the Weave fails again, Skullport is a goner, plain and simple. If Halaster or anyone else has made major excavations since the fall of Netheril, then parts of Waterdeep may fall in as well.

Bring on the Aboleths.... :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus
10-01-07, 05:56 PM -They better not touch Mythals...
Dark Wizard
10-01-07, 06:11 PM I think they are, in a not so subtle hint given by an WotC employee.
Lord Karsus
10-01-07, 07:54 PM -Not the Mythals!
GothicDan
10-01-07, 07:55 PM They, like all other things good and just, are dead.
Dark Wizard
10-01-07, 07:56 PM So does that mean there can be Evil Mythals?
GothicDan
10-01-07, 08:01 PM No! All things made by Elves are good and just, regardless of alignment.
Lord Karsus
10-01-07, 08:16 PM -Elves transcend alignment.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
10-01-07, 08:23 PM They, like all other things good and just, are dead.

That pretty much sums it all up.
dragonheart
10-01-07, 08:46 PM The Mythal in Undermountain DID fail when Karsus cast his ebil spell. The Sargauth Enclave was destroyed, and the entire place came tumbling down. Since then, Skullport was built in the deserted and partially collapsed cavern.
:rolleyes:

Lets try again - and please think through your responses for the consequences not just try to quote bits of lore as proof.
While I grant that something failed and partially collapsed the roof of the sargauth enclave I think that was more likely to be the netherese spells of the enclave not the high magic ward described below.
Lost empires p. 57 - crypts of Aelinthaldaar:
" razed by high magic in -1100 DR" ... "the only traces of Aelinthaldaar that remaintoday are the crypts beneath waterdeep's Pantheon Temple and the High Magic effect that still persists within the city - .... the high magic wardprevents the city's plateau from collapsing or settling thus keeping whole districts of the city of Splendors from sinking into Undermountain."

Now as I read this and think about the fall of netheril and the brief end of the weave that occured then it strikes me that had all magic including epic/high magic failed then if there was time for the cities to fall to earth then there was equally time for the waterdeep plateau to fail and fall into undermountain - which it obviously has not. Therefore the effect did not fail and epic/high magic did not fail while leveled magic (the weave) did. You can pick out numerous other similar proofs if you go looking for them such as the trio neferious - imprisoned by high magic in -1200 DR - remain imprisoned until 708 DR - if all magic had failed then they would have been freed with the fall of Netheril, since they weren't then the spells holding them did not fail. Same thing with Malkazid, Eltab and other demons.

What this seems to mean to me is that epic/high magic and probably some related types of magic such as the transformation to lichdom did not fail (or there would be no lichs older than the fall of Netheril. That or Mystra did one really amazing job of recreating every single epic/high magic and related effect ever cast except those done with 10th + weave magic and actually managed to recapture MAlkazid, ELtab, the trio nefarious, etc and reimprison them at the same time she was raising the waterdeep plateau and saving the 3 surviving netherese cities while deactivating their Mythallars all when she is only a few moments old and still coming into her powers. somehow Occam's razor suggests that certain types of magic did not fail while others did and that the same types should not fail in the next go round of weave failure.

Of course all this logic and detective work is moot if WotC decide to simply scrap epic/highmagic and all its effects and wipe the slate clean - but then its not really the realms anymore so who really cares.
danielmayer
10-02-07, 02:58 AM if there was time for the cities to fall to earth then there was equally time for the waterdeep plateau to fail and fall into undermountain - which it obviously has not.
And that brings me back to the point of "anchored"...
In the mythals' description in 2E it was stated, that the mythal is powered by the life force bound within. A self-sustainable field. At another point it was written that the mythal absorbs lightning and dire weather "to power itself". So it would be kind of right to bind the survivial of a mythal to
a) "novels": the type of capstone (Tree of Souls better than some stone in Glaurach)
b) "rules": "anchored" or not. It is clearly stated that the 25% bonus to research and casting is granted because the mythal is subject to (even minor) changes in the Weave.

For writing novels and stories that would be quite a nice point, when MDIIs' mythal just survives because of the strong capstone (perhaps again with some weird effects) but many other mythals (finally) break down. Remember: All old rules said that the mythals need to be refreshed every some centuries, but afaik nearly no elf knows today how mythals are treated / raised / mended...
With so many High Mages killed, I wonder if aside from Aerevin ... is there any elf left who has access to mythal-spells?

Is the Waterdeep-mythal anchored according to the rules? I don't think so. So it should remain as it is. I just can't look up the dragon ward-mythal, but most likely it *is* anchored (or at least: should be!). So Waterdeep survives, but that Dragon Mage will loose all his political power, dragons have free access to Waterdeep, etc.

After all, the single thought of a RSE in magic gives some opportunities - as long as WotC doesn't kill everything.
Lord Karsus
10-02-07, 12:02 PM With so many High Mages killed, I wonder if aside from Aerevin ... is there any elf left who has access to mythal-spells?

-Numerous High Magi in Evermeet, I'd assume. Araevin, however, seems to be the only contemporary 'High Mage', and I use that term lightly, who seems to understand the particular ritual that he used to alter Myth Drannor's Mythal.
18DELTA
10-02-07, 12:24 PM The next thing you know there will be shadow weave mythals.:P Yeah bring on the shadowcrap.:rolleyes: :P
Lord Karsus
10-02-07, 12:33 PM The next thing you know there will be shadow weave mythals.:P Yeah bring on the shadowcrap.:rolleyes: :P

-They already kinda have Shadow Weave Mythals- Evereska.
18DELTA
10-02-07, 02:52 PM -They already kinda have Shadow Weave Mythals- Evereska.
Well, well, well. Looks like they slipped one past me. I read that trilogy, and it was ok. I think the shades are overrated anyways. Now the Shadowbred trilogy, thats a shade that kicks major butt! I cant wait for book three. I dont know if I like this obsession with Shar that WotC is on. Hopefully its like a teenage angst phase.:rolleyes:Other than that, hopefully WotC gets off their shade fanboyism. Yeah right.
MarkusTay63
10-02-07, 06:25 PM Lets try again - and please think through your responses for the consequences not just try to quote bits of lore as proof.How bloody rude. :pbbbtt:

What you're saying is that I should not quote sourcebooks for proof, but rather just make stuff up?

Oh goody! :dancin:

I'm really good at 'let's pretend'. :D

Seriously though, it says in Skullport that the mantle holding up the roof of the Sargauth Enclave basically exploded. The mantle, in turn, was based on Netherese magics after the wizards thoroughly examined the attendent Mythal of the elves. No where does it mention the Mythal collapsing, only the mantle which was based on it. In fact, it specifcally states that the Mythal was 'beyond their ken".

This leaves me with the impression that Elven High Magic is more powerful then the Netherese magic, even though their spells went up to level 12.

Ergo, I would hazard to guess that Mythals are based on older, more ancient traditions of magic (raw magic?), and therefore do not need the Weave to remain intact.
dragonheart
10-02-07, 09:22 PM MArkus,
sorry (somewhat) if I was rude but I was trying to get folks to do what you did - think past simply quoting a piece of lore and actually look deeply at what it means and what its consequences are. I'm actually quite happy to see folks start with lore and then explore it and see if it actually makes sense. Sadly this is not done regularly by many of the lore creators in my opinin so we have some bad lore scattered around - lets weed it out by identifying it by its illogical consequences and places where it would disrupt other lore.

I don''t have skullport so thanks for the confirming lore that matches my speculation that what actually happened at Sargath was the failure of Netherese magic not high magic. just one more point in for my belief that epic/high magic and some potentially related rituals were not disrupted when the weave died and was reborn and so should not die in htis next time around either. I'll grnat that WotC can and will do what ever they want in this transition even if I find it to have less logic than a Klingon war declaration.

ps: sorry about the idjit making troubles for your maps :weep:
Lord Karsus
10-03-07, 12:43 PM This leaves me with the impression that Elven High Magic is more powerful then the Netherese magic, even though their spells went up to level 12.

-Elven High Magic (Epic Magic) can be more powerful than 10+ Level Magic. The beauty of Epic Magic are all of those mitigating factors. A single caster casting an Epic Spell might be less powerful than a caster casting a spell that is less powerful than a 10+ Level Spell. A hundred casters casting an Epic Spell might be more powerful than a caster casting a 10+ Level spell.

-Epic Magic is more versatile.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
danielmayer 09-29-07, 07:13 AM	Hi, all, as the mythals are a hot topics in the last months, I wanted to ask about 4E: In the 3.5E-source, it was told that "all true elven mythals are anchored and have a capstone". So when magic goes down "fully", all mythals that are anchored should be destroyed/dispelled completely, right? Most mythals went wrong when magic did not function properly, but if it goes down completely...? Another thing may be the non-anchored mythals. What's with them? Do they remain? Especially with a capstone, these may function like a mythallar, and so produce the magical field by themselves? So when Aaerevin has finished his work in LMT, the mythal goes down completely? :D kind of depressing, isn't it... May be just a request for spoiling on a specific question in magic ;) It's kind of horrible to read the different 4e-threads...
dragonheart 09-29-07, 10:29 AM	because all mythals are epic magic and as such beyond the power of the weave they are not/shuld not be destroyed when the weave and shadow weave flare and die and a new set of rules are established. They are likely to be somewhat "disturbed" by this however. Sadly untill we see what the 4e rules for magic are we can't really say what form the disturbances/disruptions are likely to take.
GothicDan 09-29-07, 03:28 PM	Epic Spells are still governed by the Weave. True Dweomers were in 2E, and that's basically what Epic Spells are.
danielmayer 09-29-07, 05:55 PM	Now I just ask because of that specific "anchored". If they are not, they should provide their magical field by themselves or by the capstone whatever. But if they are anchored, they should be pretty down in 4E... So in one moment, all elven mythals down... interesting idea. What with mythallars. After they aren't covered by "canon" rules anymore, how are they treated? Mr. Shadow keeps his flying city or gets that down after all? Buh, I really don't know if FR is 4E-compatible...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-29-07, 08:01 PM	So when Aaerevin has finished his work in LMT, the mythal goes down completely? :D kind of depressing, isn't it... No it's not. I could barely stand that series.
dragonheart 09-30-07, 11:22 AM	WHile I recognize that epic magic is the 3e version of true dweomers which were weave based (in some way - I never looked closely at that lore at the time), Its clear to me from the actual events of cannon that in major ways the epic/elven high magic is not weave based though it may well be weave linked. the main evidence for this is the downfall of netheril. when the weave temorarily fails (for however long that is) the weave based 10th+ level spells of the Netherese including their mythallars fail but the epic magic/elven high magic mythals and the epic magic of artifacts does not. effectively then epic magic has some sort of tie in to magic that is deeper/stronger/whatever than the weave link of 0-9th level (or higher during the time of Netheril). While a Mythal may make use of the weave to create its effects its power base/source is not the weave but some other/deeper/stronger connection. It is this stronger connection that should allow any epic magic based material to pass through the spell plague essentially untouched or only minimally altered. while this is obviously cannon my explaination for this is: the gods draw their power from Ao and their believers, this makes AO the actual power source behind Mystra and the weave. what Epic magic does is to directly connect to Ao for the powerbase and then link "sideways" into the weave for the effects produced. Mythals in particular, and epic magic in general, also always draw on the life forces of the casters - sometimes taking their life in the casting. this provides a second "powerbase" to hold the casting togther through the periods of no-weave so the mythals should make it past the spellplague intact if somewhat altered and potentiially corupted in small ways. so we can possibly have fun wiht them in 4e.
GothicDan 09-30-07, 11:41 AM	Who said the Epic/Elven magics didn't fail...? blinks
MarkusTay63 09-30-07, 12:45 PM	The first known canon 'High Magic' ritual took place outside of Realmspace, in Faerie, although it is yet to be seen if that Faerie is the same as the 4e Feywild (probably just a locale within it). From that we can surmise that the original form of High Magic did NOT need the Weave. Perhaps, after Karsus's blunder, or some earlier yet similar incident, Mystra/Mystrl changed the rules and the Elves were forced to adapt their castings to the new rules. Elves, being such long-lived and secretive bast... critters, would still have records of their ancient traditions, and would definately be the ones to most quickly adapt to a 'Weavless Toril'. Thats not to say that some other races wouldn't also have their own forms (the Creator races? Most especially the Fey?), but the Elves would be in the strongest position to adapt. Also, in any post-apocalyptic scenario, usually within one, maybe two generations all forms of the old 'science' (in this case magic) is forgotten, and intelligent beings are reduced to a primitive state once again. Elves, who live 1000 years, would be almost completely unaffected by such RSEs, at least as far as their tech (magic) goes. Remember that many Netherese were reduced to babarism after the fall of Netheril, so this is something that has happened to humanity numerous times in the past. Isn't there even some mention of a human civilization as far back as the Sundering, or even earlier? I remember something about that, probably from the discussion's of Shavarash and some of the inconsistencies surrounding him. :confused: Sadly, the only reason I can come up with that the Elves would be in a pickle nearly as bad as everyone else is that Evermeet gets 'nuked', which is a strong possibility with all the major setting retcons that seem on the horizon.
GothicDan 09-30-07, 12:49 PM	Normally I'd say the Seldarine would be strong enough to protect Evermeet, but with how they're so gleefully smashing Good into the ground...
MarkusTay63 09-30-07, 01:01 PM	Yes, you are correct, but unless Corellon does some major 'deific mojo', I just don't see it. Especially with some of the wierder theories being thrown around about the world being re-formed completely. There is some hope, because if Corellon steps up and takes over Elven magic (which he CAN do in the absence of Mystra), Evermeet may yet be spared. Personally, I'd rather see Evermeet returned to Faerie or Arvandor (two places that have been offered as possible origin-points for the island), with a built-in Elven-attuned portal somewhere 'to the west', just to keep the flavor. I know it's not Middle-Earth, but I think it would be cool if Elves, in their 'old age', begin to yearn for 'home', which would trigger the effect. Something akin to the mists in Ravenloft - Humans and other races would be COMPLETELY unable to do this (which is how Evermeet should have remained - inviolate). With all this talk of Eladrin, I fear for the Elves in 4e. Despite all the kidding I do about them here on these boards, they are a vital and integral part of FR, and I would rather see Evermeet moved and become more mysterious, then just destroyed in a completely non-creative way. BTW, you do agree with me, Dan, that Elves do not need the weave, right? They may use it now, but the proof shows that they are capable of casting powerful magics without it.
GothicDan 09-30-07, 02:55 PM	They don't, but who knows what raw magic in Abeir-Toril is like? It just might not be the same as it is in other Crystal Spheres...
MarkusTay63 09-30-07, 03:01 PM	According to Karsus, it's kind of like Jello. ;) Maybe Bill Cosby should be the new god of Magic in 4e FR. :dancin:
GothicDan 09-30-07, 03:20 PM	I love me some Cosby.
dragonheart 09-30-07, 05:01 PM	Who said the Epic/Elven magics didn't fail...? blinks well now lets see mythallars and other effects powered by 10th+ weave based magic failed with the fall of Netheril and the short end of the weave but I know of no lore suggesting that things likethe mythal around Evereska or that which supports Waterdeep (both cast before the fall) failed. Had waterdeep's mythal failed we would have a huge pit thre now or a deep bay not a city. Similarly my understanding is that no artifacts created with 10th+ weave based magic surrvived the fall of Nethril while many other (apparently either deificly created or epic magic based) artifacts survived unharmed and at full power. I don't know about you but that seems to me to be pretty clear evience that epic based magics didn't fail when the weave died breifly at the fall of magic. If that is true then they should not fail wiht the death of the weave entering 4e either.
GothicDan 09-30-07, 05:13 PM	I don't think so at all. I think it's just assumed that ALL magics did, and that it would have been needlessly tedious to have given every circumstance of magic that failed temporarily.
MarkusTay63 09-30-07, 06:23 PM	The Mythal in Undermountain DID fail when Karsus cast his ebil spell. The Sargauth Enclave was destroyed, and the entire place came tumbling down. Since then, Skullport was built in the deserted and partially collapsed cavern. If the Weave fails again, Skullport is a goner, plain and simple. If Halaster or anyone else has made major excavations since the fall of Netheril, then parts of Waterdeep may fall in as well. Bring on the Aboleths.... :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 10-01-07, 05:56 PM	-They better not touch Mythals...
Dark Wizard 10-01-07, 06:11 PM	I think they are, in a not so subtle hint given by an WotC employee.
Lord Karsus 10-01-07, 07:54 PM	-Not the Mythals!
GothicDan 10-01-07, 07:55 PM	They, like all other things good and just, are dead.
Dark Wizard 10-01-07, 07:56 PM	So does that mean there can be Evil Mythals?
GothicDan 10-01-07, 08:01 PM	No! All things made by Elves are good and just, regardless of alignment.
Lord Karsus 10-01-07, 08:16 PM	-Elves transcend alignment.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-01-07, 08:23 PM	They, like all other things good and just, are dead. That pretty much sums it all up.
dragonheart 10-01-07, 08:46 PM	The Mythal in Undermountain DID fail when Karsus cast his ebil spell. The Sargauth Enclave was destroyed, and the entire place came tumbling down. Since then, Skullport was built in the deserted and partially collapsed cavern. :rolleyes: Lets try again - and please think through your responses for the consequences not just try to quote bits of lore as proof. While I grant that something failed and partially collapsed the roof of the sargauth enclave I think that was more likely to be the netherese spells of the enclave not the high magic ward described below. Lost empires p. 57 - crypts of Aelinthaldaar: " razed by high magic in -1100 DR" ... "the only traces of Aelinthaldaar that remaintoday are the crypts beneath waterdeep's Pantheon Temple and the High Magic effect that still persists within the city - .... the high magic wardprevents the city's plateau from collapsing or settling thus keeping whole districts of the city of Splendors from sinking into Undermountain." Now as I read this and think about the fall of netheril and the brief end of the weave that occured then it strikes me that had all magic including epic/high magic failed then if there was time for the cities to fall to earth then there was equally time for the waterdeep plateau to fail and fall into undermountain - which it obviously has not. Therefore the effect did not fail and epic/high magic did not fail while leveled magic (the weave) did. You can pick out numerous other similar proofs if you go looking for them such as the trio neferious - imprisoned by high magic in -1200 DR - remain imprisoned until 708 DR - if all magic had failed then they would have been freed with the fall of Netheril, since they weren't then the spells holding them did not fail. Same thing with Malkazid, Eltab and other demons. What this seems to mean to me is that epic/high magic and probably some related types of magic such as the transformation to lichdom did not fail (or there would be no lichs older than the fall of Netheril. That or Mystra did one really amazing job of recreating every single epic/high magic and related effect ever cast except those done with 10th + weave magic and actually managed to recapture MAlkazid, ELtab, the trio nefarious, etc and reimprison them at the same time she was raising the waterdeep plateau and saving the 3 surviving netherese cities while deactivating their Mythallars all when she is only a few moments old and still coming into her powers. somehow Occam's razor suggests that certain types of magic did not fail while others did and that the same types should not fail in the next go round of weave failure. Of course all this logic and detective work is moot if WotC decide to simply scrap epic/highmagic and all its effects and wipe the slate clean - but then its not really the realms anymore so who really cares.
danielmayer 10-02-07, 02:58 AM	if there was time for the cities to fall to earth then there was equally time for the waterdeep plateau to fail and fall into undermountain - which it obviously has not. And that brings me back to the point of "anchored"... In the mythals' description in 2E it was stated, that the mythal is powered by the life force bound within. A self-sustainable field. At another point it was written that the mythal absorbs lightning and dire weather "to power itself". So it would be kind of right to bind the survivial of a mythal to a) "novels": the type of capstone (Tree of Souls better than some stone in Glaurach) b) "rules": "anchored" or not. It is clearly stated that the 25% bonus to research and casting is granted because the mythal is subject to (even minor) changes in the Weave. For writing novels and stories that would be quite a nice point, when MDIIs' mythal just survives because of the strong capstone (perhaps again with some weird effects) but many other mythals (finally) break down. Remember: All old rules said that the mythals need to be refreshed every some centuries, but afaik nearly no elf knows today how mythals are treated / raised / mended... With so many High Mages killed, I wonder if aside from Aerevin ... is there any elf left who has access to mythal-spells? Is the Waterdeep-mythal anchored according to the rules? I don't think so. So it should remain as it is. I just can't look up the dragon ward-mythal, but most likely it is anchored (or at least: should be!). So Waterdeep survives, but that Dragon Mage will loose all his political power, dragons have free access to Waterdeep, etc. After all, the single thought of a RSE in magic gives some opportunities - as long as WotC doesn't kill everything.
Lord Karsus 10-02-07, 12:02 PM	With so many High Mages killed, I wonder if aside from Aerevin ... is there any elf left who has access to mythal-spells? -Numerous High Magi in Evermeet, I'd assume. Araevin, however, seems to be the only contemporary 'High Mage', and I use that term lightly, who seems to understand the particular ritual that he used to alter Myth Drannor's Mythal.
18DELTA 10-02-07, 12:24 PM	The next thing you know there will be shadow weave mythals.:P Yeah bring on the shadowcrap.:rolleyes: :P
Lord Karsus 10-02-07, 12:33 PM	The next thing you know there will be shadow weave mythals.:P Yeah bring on the shadowcrap.:rolleyes: :P -They already kinda have Shadow Weave Mythals- Evereska.
18DELTA 10-02-07, 02:52 PM	-They already kinda have Shadow Weave Mythals- Evereska. Well, well, well. Looks like they slipped one past me. I read that trilogy, and it was ok. I think the shades are overrated anyways. Now the Shadowbred trilogy, thats a shade that kicks major butt! I cant wait for book three. I dont know if I like this obsession with Shar that WotC is on. Hopefully its like a teenage angst phase.:rolleyes:Other than that, hopefully WotC gets off their shade fanboyism. Yeah right.
MarkusTay63 10-02-07, 06:25 PM	Lets try again - and please think through your responses for the consequences not just try to quote bits of lore as proof.How bloody rude. :pbbbtt: What you're saying is that I should not quote sourcebooks for proof, but rather just make stuff up? Oh goody! :dancin: I'm really good at 'let's pretend'. :D Seriously though, it says in Skullport that the mantle holding up the roof of the Sargauth Enclave basically exploded. The mantle, in turn, was based on Netherese magics after the wizards thoroughly examined the attendent Mythal of the elves. No where does it mention the Mythal collapsing, only the mantle which was based on it. In fact, it specifcally states that the Mythal was 'beyond their ken". This leaves me with the impression that Elven High Magic is more powerful then the Netherese magic, even though their spells went up to level 12. Ergo, I would hazard to guess that Mythals are based on older, more ancient traditions of magic (raw magic?), and therefore do not need the Weave to remain intact.
dragonheart 10-02-07, 09:22 PM	MArkus, sorry (somewhat) if I was rude but I was trying to get folks to do what you did - think past simply quoting a piece of lore and actually look deeply at what it means and what its consequences are. I'm actually quite happy to see folks start with lore and then explore it and see if it actually makes sense. Sadly this is not done regularly by many of the lore creators in my opinin so we have some bad lore scattered around - lets weed it out by identifying it by its illogical consequences and places where it would disrupt other lore. I don''t have skullport so thanks for the confirming lore that matches my speculation that what actually happened at Sargath was the failure of Netherese magic not high magic. just one more point in for my belief that epic/high magic and some potentially related rituals were not disrupted when the weave died and was reborn and so should not die in htis next time around either. I'll grnat that WotC can and will do what ever they want in this transition even if I find it to have less logic than a Klingon war declaration. ps: sorry about the idjit making troubles for your maps :weep:
Lord Karsus 10-03-07, 12:43 PM	This leaves me with the impression that Elven High Magic is more powerful then the Netherese magic, even though their spells went up to level 12. -Elven High Magic (Epic Magic) can be more powerful than 10+ Level Magic. The beauty of Epic Magic are all of those mitigating factors. A single caster casting an Epic Spell might be less powerful than a caster casting a spell that is less powerful than a 10+ Level Spell. A hundred casters casting an Epic Spell might be more powerful than a caster casting a 10+ Level spell. -Epic Magic is more versatile.