Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Inthracis 08-01-07, 03:59 AM	I apologize because i am sure that this has been asked before but i have been wanting to run a campaign using Obould and his many many orcs as an opportunity to try my hand at running a war-based campaign and i was wondering if anyone might have some suggestions to as what Obould might be level wise.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-01-07, 09:36 AM	His stats are written officially in the FRCS, he's Bbn5/Ftr4 in there. However since his recent representation in R.A. Salvatores novels many have adjusted his abilities to reflect this. Check out the Realms NPC Characters II thread for some versions of him. My preffered version is by Steelwind: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=496878&page=19
Lord Karsus 08-01-07, 08:37 PM	His stats are written officially in the FRCS, he's Bbn5/Ftr4 in there. However since his recent representation in R.A. Salvatores novels many have adjusted his abilities to reflect this. Check out the Realms NPC Characters II thread for some versions of him. -His stats in the FRCS are still his chronologically most recent stats, as those stats reflect Obould in 1372, while the Hunter's Blade Trilogy depicts him in 1369 and 1370.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-01-07, 09:11 PM	-His stats in the FRCS are still his chronologically most recent stats, as those stats reflect Obould in 1372, while the Hunter's Blade Trilogy depicts him in 1369 and 1370. This has been further verified in 3.5 by his stats being duplicated again in his Minatures write-up, where he is the same as the FRCS version. Yet many fans have stated that they feel that these stats do not reflect the changes in the novels, also the Hunter's Blade Trilogy was published after his first published stats in FRCS. In the end it remains up to the DM which stats fit with his campaign.
Alurvelve 08-01-07, 10:24 PM	My version of Obould is in this link, as well as many other of Salvatore's characters. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=748199
Lord Karsus 08-02-07, 12:07 AM	Yet many fans have stated that they feel that these stats do not reflect the changes in the novels, also the Hunter's Blade Trilogy was published after his first published stats in FRCS. -Oh, that shouldn't matter at all. Being the astute author that Salvatore supposedly is, he should have done his research, and realized that any changes he made to the character were to be "revised", or in some other way altered, such that the character's stats in the FRCS would be correct, again, since the FRCS is a chronologically later product. Then again, maybe Salvatore lacks that foresight.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-02-07, 12:03 PM	Most authours, like Salvatore, try to not let the stats affect the story they are attempting to tell. However Salvatore not only ignores the stats but also the lore aswell, he tends to rewrite the past and then leave it up to the designers and fans to pick up the slack. He may have a get-out clause this time to explain Obould's disparate level of power, in the shape of a certain ritual i.e.possible chosen and any other myriad of theories etc. This plot device enables RAS to make Obould as powerful as he likes to suit the story and then return him to his offical level at a later date.
Lord Karsus 08-02-07, 06:27 PM	Most authours, like Salvatore, try to not let the stats affect the story they are attempting to tell. -Which is especially poor form, when you are borrowing someone else' character, in somebody else's world.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-02-07, 06:54 PM	-Which is especially poor form, when you are borrowing someone else' character, in somebody else's world. Aye, although Salvatore does write some good action-orientated stories, it's a big shame he distorts the the rest of the realms to do so.
creyzi4zb12 08-03-07, 08:25 AM	Actually lots of writers do not base their books on the EXACT stats. That would be too predictable, I really wouldn't like it if it was too predictable. It would then feel more of a game instead of a book... Like that fat guy from Avatar who was able to kill Gwydion and Rinda, or that baker from Making of a Mage who killed a battlewizard with his pitchfork, those were all done from the back, and a critical hit in a game wouldn't be enought to kill those antagonists.
Lord Karsus 08-03-07, 10:15 PM	Actually lots of writers do not base their books on the EXACT stats. That would be too predictable, I really wouldn't like it if it was too predictable. It would then feel more of a game instead of a book... -While a certain amount of poetic license is indeed appreciated, and needed, it gets to a point where characters, settings, and so on aren't being accuratley portrayed anymore. Like that fat guy from Avatar who was able to kill Gwydion and Rinda, or that baker from Making of a Mage who killed a battlewizard with his pitchfork, those were all done from the back, and a critical hit in a game wouldn't be enought to kill those antagonists. -Triple 20s.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-06-07, 08:20 AM	Remember the hp system is an abstracted form of health. It shows one capacity to avoid, dampen, deflect damage etc. In the literary world a pitchfork in the back of a wzard is still a pitch int the back. The current system can't really account for physical damage properly, think about it, it's impossible in the 3.5 rules to lose a limb in battle without magic. An authour does not think about hit points when writing an action scene. He thinks about skill, experience and luck to finish a fight. A better representation of characters ability to survive would be the Star War RPG wound system, also there is a similar but less realistic version in Unearthed Arcana.
Stigger 08-07-07, 05:00 AM	Hmmm... that never bothered me really in terms of game play. Some player of mine manages to get behind an opponent and insert a blade into the spine or base of the skull, that opponent is pretty much dead in my book, no matter how many HP it has. Same goes for the PCs though... amazing how much a system like that can magnify the importance of awareness and stealth in a fight...
Eli_the_Tanner 08-07-07, 08:41 AM	Fair play on house-ruling that sort of thing, it adds an extra depth of realism and danger I think. However it still can't marry limb loss in combat or highly skilled characters loping off the heads of a passing orc. Of course it's possible to describe what it is happening to your players, and give your attacks flavour. The very simple fact is that Hit Points do not represent what actually happens in combat.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-07-07, 10:13 AM	Most authours, like Salvatore, try to not let the stats affect the story they are attempting to tell. However Salvatore not only ignores the stats but also the lore aswell, he tends to rewrite the past and then leave it up to the designers and fans to pick up the slack. He may have a get-out clause this time to explain Obould's disparate level of power, in the shape of a certain ritual i.e.possible chosen and any other myriad of theories etc. This plot device enables RAS to make Obould as powerful as he likes to suit the story and then return him to his offical level at a later date. Exactly. His characters are his characters. Why should he write his charaters less powerful because initially, some person doing stats delevelled his characters? In the end, Salvatore says he does not use game stats in consideration with his writing, and he was told he did not have to by all the people in charge in the early 90's, which led to his books becoming the most popular in FR history. If stats were accurate, Drizzt would be an equal fighter to Zaknafein (24CR) in the source books. But whoever did the stats messed up. DOes anybody care? No obviously since his books sell millions. -Which is especially poor form, when you are borrowing someone else' character, in somebody else's world. Salvatore has been given modifying rights since, well, he is the most popular FR author by a large margin and since he is probably the biggest reason so many non DnD fans get into forgotten realms. Elitists who balk over stats and authors not using them really need to take a breather. The honest truth is, in every stat book or sourcebook, none of the numbers are set in stone. It is up to each individual DM to decide exactly how powerful a person is, or what happens to a person, or anything. As DM you have rights to modify anything you want for your game, therefore, what someone did in a novel based on NPC's he created should not matter. His novel is his personal game, with him as the DM.
Stigger 08-07-07, 02:45 PM	Salvatore has been given modifying rights since, well, he is the most popular FR author by a large margin and since he is probably the biggest reason so many non DnD fans get into forgotten realms. Elitists who balk over stats and authors not using them really need to take a breather. The honest truth is, in every stat book or sourcebook, none of the numbers are set in stone. It is up to each individual DM to decide exactly how powerful a person is, or what happens to a person, or anything. As DM you have rights to modify anything you want for your game, therefore, what someone did in a novel based on NPC's he created should not matter. His novel is his personal game, with him as the DM. On the whole I'd agree with that, although on the other hand it potentially creates an expectation on the part of new players that a DM may or may not want to deal with, and could lead to some problems in a lot of ways. Say that a new person coming into D&D from the novels sees the way that Obould is portrayed, looks at his stat block, and then comes away with a very skewed idea of exactly what a 9th level character is actually capable of according to the actual rules... which is essentially my problem with the various portrayals given, though I should note that its hardly only Drizzt, Obould, and company who've had that particular problem. Not that its that big of a problem really, but I suspect that's something of the logic at work here.
Lord Karsus 08-07-07, 11:14 PM	In the end, Salvatore says he does not use game stats in consideration with his writing, and he was told he did not have to by all the people in charge in the early 90's, which led to his books becoming the most popular in FR history. -Citation, please? Salvatore has been given modifying rights since... -Citation, please? well, he is the most popular FR author by a large margin... -Citation, please? and since he is probably the biggest reason so many non DnD fans get into forgotten realms. -Citation, please? Elitists who balk over stats and authors not using them really need to take a breather. The honest truth is, in every stat book or sourcebook, none of the numbers are set in stone. It is up to each individual DM to decide exactly how powerful a person is, or what happens to a person, or anything. -Stats and other assorted numbers presented in 3e FR Sourcebooks are canon. As DM you have rights to modify anything you want for your game, therefore, what someone did in a novel based on NPC's he created should not matter. -A personal game at home is not a canon novel. His novel is his personal game, with him as the DM. -No, his novel is not his personal game. His novel is part of the collective Realms, and as Uncle Ben once said, "With great power comes great responsibility". He has been entrusted with the ability to alter/modify the actual Forgotten Realms. See where I am going with this?
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-08-07, 12:28 AM	-Citation, please? -Citation, please? -Citation, please? -Citation, please? -Stats and other assorted numbers presented in 3e FR Sourcebooks are canon. -A personal game at home is not a canon novel. -No, his novel is not his personal game. His novel is part of the collective Realms, and as Uncle Ben once said, "With great power comes great responsibility". He has been entrusted with the ability to alter/modify the actual Forgotten Realms. See where I am going with this? Do I actually need citation on a known fact? He HAS, and this is without any doubt with tons of proof floating around, sold more novels than any other FR individual. He is consistantly on bestseller lists and I don't need to bother searching for this to know its true. Someone cited stats for sold novels on Candlekeep awhile back, and his were far ahead of anyone elses. Go look it up if you are so angry about it. Despite several of the simpsons comic book guy elitists on this site hating on him(Just because he is mainstream), he is still by far the most successful author for FR(Even though he is not my favorite), and we all know it. Name another author who even sells close to his number, or has near his success? See what I mean, you can't? Thanks
Beaver 08-08-07, 12:46 AM	I do love Bob!
GothicDan 08-08-07, 12:49 AM	Larloch, it's a known fact (citing Steven Schend and Elaine at Candlekeep) that during the 2E run of things, it was Schend's job (among many) to try to reconcile novel actions with statistical scores. Schend did it for Elaine's writing. No matter how 'popular' someone is, they still have to abide by the rules. (Not talking just about statistical rules here.) Despite several of the simpsons comic book guy elitists on this site hating on him(Just because he is mainstream), SKR referred to me as such on a very... Heated thread on Candlekeep. The funny thing is, I have abso-fricking-lutely no idea what he's talking about, and still don't. The Simpsons don't do much for me.
Diffan 08-08-07, 09:40 AM	Larloch, it's a known fact (citing Steven Schend and Elaine at Candlekeep) that during the 2E run of things, it was Schend's job (among many) to try to reconcile novel actions with statistical scores. Schend did it for Elaine's writing. No matter how 'popular' someone is, they still have to abide by the rules. (Not talking just about statistical rules here.) While I believe that it's a good thing and almost every novel I've read in FR conforms to this, RA really hasn't. One example is his multiple use of his Darkness spell-like ability. "Just as one of the other orcs turned as if to move into the great tent, the drow reached into his innate magical powers and dropped a globe of darkness upon the trio......."Drizzt didn't stop there, bringing forth another globe of impenetrable darkness right before the orc warriors who were even then bearing down upon him." The Lone Drow-p.48-49 for citation purposes of course. Now, Drizzt was statted in the FRCS which supposedly takes place after this novel, but no where does he gain the feat which allows him to do such. Though, keep in mind, the FRCS was made before the 3.5 conversion, so any non-lore based statistical information can and should be mechanically changed to incorporate new/better source books. SKR referred to me as such on a very... Heated thread on Candlekeep. The funny thing is, I have abso-fricking-lutely no idea what he's talking about, and still don't. The Simpsons don't do much for me. It's basically a perfectionist, uber-obsessed fanboy that takes writings and other, i guess you could use the word canon, articles and information to heart with no room for discrepency(Sp?) and a knack for knowing everything about said topic to a "T". Many "Trekkies", like my folks, are kinda like this as well as many Star Wars fans, going so far as to argue things from the dilithium crystals in a warp propulsion system which converts matter into anti-matter in most federation powered vessels to the reason for the continual use of the number 47 in almost every star trek show.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-08-07, 10:35 AM	-Stats and other assorted numbers presented in 3e FR Sourcebooks are canon. -A personal game at home is not a canon novel.[emphasis mine] If both stats and novels are canon, which one is correct? I do believe it is the latest publication that takes precedent therefore that would mean if the novel does not match with the 3.0 stats then there needs to be a change in those stats. If the stats aren't representative of a recent novels characters abilities then it is the stats that are wrong, not the writer. The stats are attempting to quantify what has been written in the novels and our collective imagination. Stats should not dictate what a character is or can be, in fact it shoud be the other way around - Characters dictate stats. However Oboulds current incarnation does seem temporary so I doubt there needs to be a change....or even a problem.
Stigger 08-08-07, 02:34 PM	Kinda sorta true there Eli... but for it to hold true, the said characters need to conform at least somewhat to the ruleset and not have astronomical jumps in ability simply to move a plot... sure it might make for a good story, but it makes for a bad example of gameplay in action. Which I think is the point of the disagreements... could be wrong about that though.
Lord Karsus 08-08-07, 09:00 PM	Do I actually need citation on a known fact? -Yes. If you can't prove anything that you said earlier with fact, why should I believe you? G-d created the universe ten seconds ago. I don't need any actual facts to prove that, though... He HAS, and this is without any doubt with tons of proof floating around, sold more novels than any other FR individual. -Give me some numbers, then. He is consistantly on bestseller lists and I don't need to bother searching for this to know its true. -Yes, it says as much on the back of his novels. However, being on, say, the New York Times bestseller list doesn't exactly mean too much, in actual terms. What do the liberal elite know of what we plebians like? ;) Someone cited stats for sold novels on Candlekeep awhile back, and his were far ahead of anyone elses. Go look it up if you are so angry about it. -URL, please? Despite several of the simpsons comic book guy elitists on this site hating on him(Just because he is mainstream), he is still by far the most successful author for FR(Even though he is not my favorite), and we all know it. -Citation, please? I believe Ed Greenwood to be the most sucessful FR author, of course, because he kind of, you know, created the basic setting... Name another author who even sells close to his number, or has near his success? See what I mean, you can't? Thanks -Ed Greenwood. Elaine Cunningham. Troy Denning. If both stats and novels are canon, which one is correct? -Both are. That is the reason why it causes so much trouble when novels contain too much poetic license, or stats are incorrect. I do believe it is the latest publication that takes precedent therefore that would mean if the novel does not match with the 3.0 stats then there needs to be a change in those stats. If the stats aren't representative of a recent novels characters abilities then it is the stats that are wrong, not the writer. The stats are attempting to quantify what has been written in the novels and our collective imagination. Stats should not dictate what a character is or can be, in fact it shoud be the other way around - Characters dictate stats. -Like I said earlier, authors should not be bound to concretely adhere to specific stats while writing novels. Poetic license is needed. However, at the same time, characters statted at 2nd level shouldn't be running around slaying Liches with sneezes. When either stats are wrong, or too much poetic license is used, problems in continuity begin.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-08-07, 10:10 PM	Kinda sorta true there Eli... but for it to hold true, the said characters need to conform at least somewhat to the ruleset and not have astronomical jumps in ability simply to move a plot... sure it might make for a good story, but it makes for a bad example of gameplay in action. Which I think is the point of the disagreements... could be wrong about that though. In this particular case (Obould) I don't see a problem with Salvatore beefing him up to challenge Drizzt, countless villans before him have undergone rituals, gained powerful items tec. to challenge heroes. This plot is one of the steroetypical plots of any D&D game, or story....BBEG get's lot's of power and threatens adventurers homeland, Player's then have to stop BBEG and save the lands. Standard really. --Both are. That is the reason why it causes so much trouble when novels contain too much poetic license, or stats are incorrect. I agree, disparate stats and stories serve only to confound the game to player's and DM's alike. -Like I said earlier, authors should not be bound to concretely adhere to specific stats while writing novels. Poetic license is needed. However, at the same time, characters statted at 2nd level shouldn't be running around slaying Liches with sneezes. When either stats are wrong, or too much poetic license is used, problems in continuity begin. I concur, levels should reflect what character's are capable of in novels. However when you are constructing an adventure or a character, you decide the plot, theme and events that you would like to take place and then scale the stats to reflect the challenge appropiately. A 2nd level should be able to go around killing liches with a sneeze, so long as you explain why this is possible. I think this has been done with Obould and therefore is not an effective example of a novel-stats divergence.....now the Year of Rogue Dragons series is an example of this.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-08-07, 10:12 PM	Double Post!! I've always wondered how these happen...and now I know.
Stigger 08-09-07, 03:28 AM	Only problem I have with the Obould line, and I'll admit freely that I haven't read the books in question, is that if a savagely idiotic society like the Orcs can pull off a ritual to allow a CR9 critter to effectively challenge a CR18 critter and his CR5 pet, then why exactly can't my PC wizard and his cleric buddies pull off a ritual that lets them double their effective CR and beat on Fzoul until his eyes bleed and his heart stops beating at 12th level? That's just stretching things far too much, even with poetic licence taken into account... I doubt even the most impressive of High Magic could buff up a creature that much to make it even vaguely believable really.
creyzi4zb12 08-09-07, 09:40 AM	I think it has something to do with Gruumsh favoring Obould....He may not be Gruumsh's chosen, but there can be a big possibility that Gruumsh favors him for uniting the orcs together. There could be many supernormal happenings in books that go beyond DnD games. A good example of this would be Midnight pulling out a time stop spell to beat Myrkul in Avatar third book, or that volcano Ruha conjured on the Trial Of Cyric the Mad. Or gondweapons from the scro creating mysterious brainburn spells on their prey on GondRunner. They weren't chosen, but the gods favored them somehow.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-09-07, 10:18 AM	Only problem I have with the Obould line, and I'll admit freely that I haven't read the books in question, is that if a savagely idiotic society like the Orcs can pull off a ritual to allow a CR9 critter to effectively challenge a CR18 critter and his CR5 pet,... There is some debate as to how much he has been beefed up by said ritual, some say chosen status and his new items would be sufficient CR +4 Chosen and +1 for items possibly. Drizzts current incarnation stat-wise means obould could quite easily pose a credible threat at CR14. It is quite hard to guage how much buffing increases ones CR ability by, Cat's grace, Bull Strength and haste etc. could easily replace a powerful template. We normally assume that the CR is figured into the caster CR....but with permanancy it becomes tricky. ....then why exactly can't my PC wizard and his cleric buddies pull off a ritual that lets them double their effective CR and beat on Fzoul until his eyes bleed and his heart stops beating at 12th level? That's just stretching things far too much, even with poetic licence taken into account... I doubt even the most impressive of High Magic could buff up a creature that much to make it even vaguely believable really. I dare say there are proberly rituals you could perform that would make you a match for Fzoul. Spend some time on the CO boards and you will realise level is barely a factor, I still refuse to fight kobolds...just in case. However I doubt you can gain the amount of assistance that an orc King, who is the embodiment of Gruumsh and has the help of potentially millions of followers can.
ShadezofDis 08-09-07, 11:52 AM	This is the sorta jam that makes me despise the way the gods are portrayed in this setting, it's like they all exist in this little vacuum and their actions only get noticed by the other gods (and certainly not all of them) when it's convenient for the storyline, not in any sort of logical or consistent manner. I mean really, the Dwarven Pantheon could have been shown allowing Bruenor to come back to life and break Obould's army (a VERY simple scene showing the symbol of Moradin above Bruenor's body before he regained consciousness would have explained that whole situation PERFECTLY, especially if Bruenor had come back into Mithril Hall, said goodbye to everyone and died) Further, Obould should have bit the dust after failing Gruumsh (because, even if it were another god enhancing Obould then Gruumsh would have been aware through his shaman at the very least) and one of his lieutenants could have picked up the torch. I guess the thing that enrages me is that I can see ways to make these plots fit relatively seamlessly with the Realms but for some reason (author neglect, editorial decisions to make things "cool", or whatever) this doesn't happen. Just some nods towards the "drought" that occurred due to the Shades. Some instances of strife due to the Draco-rage (you know, like some concerted hunts by nations to take out dragons, since you never know when they might get all crazy again). Some kind of explanation about how the Zhents have managed to expand their power despite the massive set backs they've faced (and how bout, maybe, just a nod towards their mercantile power and the mercantile councils that should be a part of the Zhents). Oh dear. . . I've begun to rant again and I was going to stop doing that. . . oh well, I'll be done now. :)
Stigger 08-10-07, 04:11 AM	Right... an orc king has so many magical resources... which is why spellcasters generally prove such a decisive factor when the orcs whelm yet another horde of course... since generally speaking orcs rely so much on clerical support... sure... right. As to the CO boards and such... that might make sense coming from a human player perspective, but from an orc with a 13 Int, 12 Wis, and Cha 10? Sure he's bright for an orc, but compared to your average wizard or sorcerer, he's pretty much a pile of cinders waiting to happen. Compare that to his foe's 17 Int, 17 Wis, and 14 Cha... he's just not smart or cunning enough to really outwit the Silver Marches in the long term stat wise. Even his big bad adept ally, Black Lorog isn't all that impressive looking over her stats on pg34 of the Silver Marches sourcebook. Just going by pure stats and level, neither of them should have anywhere near those numbers of followers in the first place really, at least ones who are actually loyal to him. Just doesn't make much sense in the overall context of the ruleset. Sure, it might make for a compelling story, don't know personally haven't read it, and don't really intend to, but at least make some token effort to make it at least semi-coherent and compatible with the rules of the game.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-10-07, 03:31 PM	The ritual performed in the book is more of a blessing from Gruumsh than a concerted bufing by the Shaman's. The Shamn's help Obould by giving him items and advice really. Obould's mental stats are boosted considerably by the ritual and gains 'a clarity and forthought' beyond other orcs. Even the Shaman's are unable to see what obould sees and think as far ahead as he. Also Gerti recognises Obould is far more cunnning perceptive than she (Cleric 5/ runecaster 4). After the ritual he gains the ability to unite all the orcs under his banner of Obould-who-is Gruumsh, perhaps an ability of the ritual. I don't want to break any CoC of rules by talking too much about thye events of the book...suffice to say I didn't find the events of the book too unbelievable for Obould.
GothicDan 08-10-07, 03:38 PM	A good example of this would be Midnight pulling out a time stop spell to beat Myrkul in Avatar third book, At that point, Midnight was already bestowed with part of Mystra's essence. She was already greater than a Chosen.
Diffan 08-10-07, 04:40 PM	The problem is that the FRCS was written before the book was published, and therefore no stats on his ritual. While it's debated that he is/isn't a Chosen of Gruumsh, it's quite clear he has the permanent effects of the spells Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace placed upon him. I'd also consider giving him the 5 extra level in Orc Warlord PrC in the Races of Faerun book. The PrC fits him to a "T". Even with his enhancements and extra PrC levels, I'd still consider giving him something more. He takes on Drizzt, a moderatly skilled swordman...er drow, and fights to a draw, he over powers a frost giant and makes her think twice about going head to head against him, and he lives through an avalanche. Yea, definitly something more than a few levels and some 2nd level spell enhancements.
GothicDan 08-10-07, 05:48 PM	The book was written before the novel was published, but in-game it's AFTER the novel was published. Therefore, it should have been kept as valid first and foremost before a novel that was published AFTER it. It's the equivalent of having to read a history book and set a historical novel in a past time period.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-10-07, 06:04 PM	The book was written before the novel was published, but in-game it's AFTER the novel was published. Therefore, it should have been kept as valid first and foremost before a novel that was published AFTER it. It's the equivalent of having to read a history book and set a historical novel in a past time period. GothicDan is correct here, I do believe the hunter's blade trilogy is based in 1370 DR(Year of the Tankard). Salvatore has always based the Drizzt novels a few years before the current timeline. This is what makes me think Obould's ritual is temporary and explains why his FRCS setting stats don't match his novel incarnation. Obould's current boosted powers help to make him a credible challenge to Drizzt. This, if nothing else, shows that RAS makes at least a cursory glance towards accepted lore and stats.
Diffan 08-10-07, 06:04 PM	The book was written before the novel was published, but in-game it's AFTER the novel was published. Therefore, it should have been kept as valid first and foremost before a novel that was published AFTER it. It's the equivalent of having to read a history book and set a historical novel in a past time period. While I agree, it doesn't change the fact that what's done is done. Further more, you could also claim that because the FRCS is 3.0 and NOT 3.5, changes must occur and things like classes, abilities, and character CR must change to adapt to the newer/better sources produced. I would only use the FRCS for lore, history, culture, and everthing that's not game specific because it doesn't relate to 3.5 rule in many reguards.
GothicDan 08-10-07, 06:35 PM	Even if you updated the rules from 3.0 to 3.5, you would updated his 3.0 stats to 3.5 - you wouldn't ADD a bunch of levels and extra abilities. How many other NPCs did they do that for? I think the idea of a temporarily-empowered Obould is a good one, but I'm not sure how plausible it is as canon, since it would effectively remove him as a long-time antagonist.
ShadezofDis 08-10-07, 07:08 PM	I think the idea of a temporarily-empowered Obould is a good one, but I'm not sure how plausible it is as canon, since it would effectively remove him as a long-time antagonist. Oh, I can think of several different ways it could make him a perfect long term antagonist. Just one of which being the fact that he failed Gruumsh, so Gruumsh punishes him and strips him of power so he rebels against Gruumsh. I don't know where RAS is going with his whole plot but I DO hope that it fits with the source books and makes sense (and isn't a dues ex machina). I'm just not sure that I should hope.
Diffan 08-10-07, 07:48 PM	I think the idea of a temporarily-empowered Obould is a good one, but I'm not sure how plausible it is as canon, since it would effectively remove him as a long-time antagonist. And therein lies the problem. What is canon? Novel or Sourcebook? 3.0 or 3.5? FR says that it's all canon, so apparently you can't go wrong. Maybe RA will have Obould lose his powers because he apparently failed Gruumsh, but what did he fail at? He established what might be the first Orc Kingdom on Toril, pushed the hated dwarves into they're hole, and forced an entire nation to recgonize them as a power in the region....I don't see why Gruumsh would punish a faithful servant for doing these things. you wouldn't ADD a bunch of levels and extra abilities. How many other NPCs did they do that for? I think they re-did the open lord of waterdeep, gave him like 2 extra paladin levels. That's the only one I can recall at the moment, but there might be one or two more.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-10-07, 07:52 PM	I think the idea of a temporarily-empowered Obould is a good one, but I'm not sure how plausible it is as canon, since it would effectively remove him as a long-time antagonist. If we go by what has been written in FRCS and Silver Marches as proof of what he becomes in the future. Then it would seem he is still a political and military threat even if he ceases to be a personal nemesis. It also seems that Gerti and the frost giants move into the Evermoors(trollmoors) and cause the trolls to spill out into the surrounding lands, the cause has so far not been isolated. This maybe means that their alliances still stand possibly and Obould is trying to manauver agents behind enemy lines. Alternativly Obould has given Gerti a good kicking and sent her packing to live with the trolls.
Lord Karsus 08-10-07, 11:59 PM	And therein lies the problem. What is canon? Novel or Sourcebook? 3.0 or 3.5? FR says that it's all canon, so apparently you can't go wrong. -Both, as I said earlier. Hence the reason why I absolutely cannot stand the fact that Salvatore has the need to set his stories in the recent past- "With great power comes great responsibility". As Dan eloquently stated before, "The book was written before the novel was published, but in-game it's AFTER the novel was published. Therefore, it should have been kept as valid first and foremost before a novel that was published AFTER it. It's the equivalent of having to read a history book and set a historical novel in a past time period."
Diffan 08-11-07, 07:41 AM	-Both, as I said earlier. Hence the reason why I absolutely cannot stand the fact that Salvatore has the need to set his stories in the recent past- "With great power comes great responsibility". As Dan eloquently stated before, "The book was written before the novel was published, but in-game it's AFTER the novel was published. Therefore, it should have been kept as valid first and foremost before a novel that was published AFTER it. It's the equivalent of having to read a history book and set a historical novel in a past time period." RA's time setting only really messes up character stats. These should be re-statted every couple of years, and this should apply to all NPC's. There's so much new information, sources, abilities, spells, etc.. that arrive monthly, that it's almost a must. Also, doesn't RA's final draft have to be approved by such and such from the creators of the Realms? If so, then maybe the blame should be spread around to them as well for non-linear events.
GothicDan 08-11-07, 09:31 AM	RA's time setting only really messes up character stats. Stats are a (rough) reflection of lore. These should be re-statted every couple of years, and this should apply to all NPC's. There's so much new information, sources, abilities, spells, etc.. that arrive monthly, that it's almost a must. One of Ed's quote basically says that rules don't matter very much if you try not to pay too much attention to them. Since RAS has been on board since the beginning, I would assume he'd approve of such a notion of gaming in the Realms. If Wizards worked ever new bloody rule into the setting that came out, I'd be even more disappointed with them. Also, doesn't RA's final draft have to be approved by such and such from the creators of the Realms? If so, then maybe the blame should be spread around to them as well for non-linear events. Why do you make such a claim without even knowing for sure? The Realms doesn't even have a head designer any more that I know of, since Rich Baker resigned, and Ed's not a full-time staff member. So, what creators are you referring to? He probably has to be approved by the novels department.
creyzi4zb12 08-11-07, 12:02 PM	But u cant just remove RAS from the industry, or change his way of writing. he's one of wizards BEST publishers besides Ed, Cunningham or Denning. I bet there are tons of people who know Drizzt and don't know who Elminster is. If u look at fanfiction.net the only story about Elminster u can see there is one writter by ME!! Weeee!! Check it out people!! It's called (ORC MUTTON) http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3589304/1/Orc_Mutton It's a parody in the ToT when Elminster stumbles across a band of orcs during a failed teleportation spell. Neway it's still far from finished yet....and I haven't got time enought to update the stupid thing. But soon I'll be updating it, with Obould on it. :dancin: orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc :dancin:
GothicDan 08-11-07, 12:50 PM	Don't care how popular he is. He should still follow the same courtesies of any other author. Elaine, for example, has worked excessively in the past to stick with lore, both past, present, and even FUTURE.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-11-07, 02:20 PM	Don't care how popular he is. He should still follow the same courtesies of any other author. Elaine, for example, has worked excessively in the past to stick with lore, both past, present, and even FUTURE. Yet he doesn't, and his extreme popularity status lets him get away with it. Obviously nobody has stepped in to stop him. I bet that irks you aye?
GothicDan 08-11-07, 02:25 PM	I'm not sure what you're getting at. I bet it irks you that WotC hasn't decided to portray Larloch properly, statistically, too. What's your point?
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-11-07, 05:00 PM	I'm not sure what you're getting at. I bet it irks you that WotC hasn't decided to portray Larloch properly, statistically, too. What's your point? The point is, it doesn't matter. In the end, Salvatore wrote it his way, and nobody stopped him. I really don't care how WOTC portrays Larloch. They portray Drizzt as a level 18 who fought equally with a level 24 Zaknafein. Salvatore's novels are quality work, and they sell by the millions.
Lord Karsus 08-11-07, 07:06 PM	RA's time setting only really messes up character stats. -The retroactive timeline alters a lot of other things, asides for just character stats. For example, his last novel established the Kingdom of Many-Arrows as existing in DR 1370...Now, in what sourcebook(s) does the Kingdom of Many-Arrows ever mentioned in? Sure, it can be worked around, but again, it creates unnecessary aggrivation. Also, doesn't RA's final draft have to be approved by such and such from the creators of the Realms? If so, then maybe the blame should be spread around to them as well for non-linear events. -I believe that the rough storyboard is given to an author by WotC. Said author then writes the story that WotC wants said author to write. WotC only provides said author with the key points, ideas, elements, characters, and so on that they want to appear in said authors novel. Said author, then, has the liberty to embellish on the key points, ideas, elements, characters, and so on that they want to appear in said author's novel. Thus, said authors said novel is born. ;) -Who comes up with the ideas, and who edits all of them? Faceless WotC drones, probably. ;) The point is, it doesn't matter. In the end, Salvatore wrote it his way, and nobody stopped him. -Which means nothing. For years, nobody said a word as a certain Austrian painter rose to prominence in Germany. Does that make what he did right? Salvatore's novels are quality work, and they sell by the millions. -So does McDonalds, and that is certainly not quality. ;)
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-11-07, 08:36 PM	-So does McDonalds, and that is certainly not quality You are just one hater who dislikes anything that does not conform to your Stat hugging ways vs the Millions and millions of Salvatore fans. Its quality by popular vote, whether you like it or not. Always on bestseller lists, despite your attempts to demean bestseller lists, means something.(NY times Bestseller list is a benchmark all authors strive for) They stuck the words "R.A Salvatore's War of the spider Queen", on that series, and all but 1 book became a bestseller. Comparing Salvatore to hitler is just reallllly geeky on your part. Nobody at WOTC is going to say boo to the FR bestselling author over details so minor only a few hundred Hardcore DnD nerds complain about vs the millions his books sell.
Lord Karsus 08-11-07, 10:21 PM	-Wow, can somebody say fanboy? :rolleyes: You are just one hater who dislikes anything that does not conform to your Stat hugging ways vs the Millions and millions of Salvatore fans. -I don't necessarily care about stats- Stats change. I care about canon. I care about conformity. I care about quality. I care about continuity. I care about the intangibles that you seem to not be able to wrap you mind around. Its quality by popular vote, whether you like it or not. -No, no it's not. That millions and millions of people buy a specific popular rapper's CD does not make said rapper a "poet". What is popular- especially nowadays- is not, in any way, indicative of quality of any sort. A fool following a fool is more foolish than the fool he follows. Always on bestseller lists, despite your attempts to demean bestseller lists, means something.(NY times Bestseller list is a benchmark all authors strive for) -Firstly, the New York Times is a horribly biased newspaper. I take everything I read therewithin with as much of a grain of salt as I take everything I read in the Post. The only way to get a real measure of what is actually going on it to read the two consecutivley, actually- Far Left + Far Right = Truth (more or less). -Anyway, reviewers working for the times do not look for the same things that we (the collective Boards Sages) look for. If an elitist newspaper columnist loves his work, fine. But, that said columnist raves about his writing does not mean that it is up to snuff in the terms that actually matter to us. They stuck the words "R.A Salvatore's War of the spider Queen", on that series, and all but 1 book became a bestseller. -The series is called R.A. Salvatore's War of the Spider Queen because the idea behind the plot, and the "executive designer" was Salvatore. Also, if the books within the series became bestsellers, this is reflective on the individual authors. Comparing Salvatore to hitler is just reallllly geeky on your part. -Proper nouns, like names, are capitalized. Notice, however, that you could not refute what I said, and simply resorted to namecalling instead. Nobody at WOTC is going to say boo to the FR bestselling author over details so minor only a few hundred Hardcore DnD nerds complain about vs the millions his books sell. -Unfortunatley, no. But again, this does not mean that Salvatore is a good author. Remember, it is the "few hundred Hardcore DnD nerds" that have the loud megaphones, in the sea of millions.
Diffan 08-11-07, 10:27 PM	Ok now, everyone play nice. It's all in good fun. I know RA doesn't stick to the timeline, but the Realms move in time at a speed much faster than an author can write, espically when he's writing 2 or even 3 different story lines, plus other books non FR or even WotC. I think he did a pretty good job with not really messing with the history in his Sellswords Trilogy which takes place in Damara. The problem is, say he were to fast foward through the years to the current one, 1375? What has happened with Obould's kingdom since the last book came out, year 1370? 5 years is SUCH a leap that you can't just say, "well nothing happend that gives anyone in the Realms great pause." and start up again 5 years later. So does McDonalds, and that is certainly not quality. I like Arby's my self ;)!
Alurvelve 08-12-07, 01:47 AM	Why hasnt this and a number of other threads been closed yet for trolling? and flameing?
Diffan 08-12-07, 03:04 AM	-Unfortunatley, no. But again, this does not mean that Salvatore is a good author. Remember, it is the "few hundred Hardcore DnD nerds" that have the loud megaphones, in the sea of millions. What defines who is a good author or not? Also, can I have a megaphone? -I don't necessarily care about stats- Stats change. I care about canon. I care about conformity. I care about quality. I care about continuity. I care about the intangibles that you seem to not be able to wrap you mind around. Then why bother changing anything from 2nd Edition? There were alot of changes since that dark era but people, players, and fans adapted and overcame something as large as a whole new system of play. Besides, I think if the authors had to conform to game rules for a fantasy type novel, it would get extreamly lame and boring to read. If RAS's novels bother you, why not try excluding the events therein from your campaigns? It might make things easier.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-12-07, 07:48 AM	Salvatore's latest novels have not yet explicitly contradicted anything in the FRCS or Silver Marches. If anything, the hunter's blade trilog have described some increased orc activity and a large raid on Mithral hall and the surrounding towns/villages. Nothing realms changing has actually occured - just that Obould has the potential to change the North. These events may seem realms-shaking and important, but we forget that these events are portrayed through the eyes of Drizzt. They will seem significant to him, shaking his world. It's just one more orc horde to the realms, barely worth mentioning as a footnote in it's grand history. Give Salvatore and Drizzt a chance to save us all from yet another near-disaster. Salvatore has not yet used Obould to sell-out the realms. I say we wait until the resoloution until we judge Salvatore's ability to appreciate canon or not.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-12-07, 09:36 AM	-Wow, can somebody say fanboy? :rolleyes: Fanboy is the guy defending Canon rules like the comic book guy from the simpsons and saying deviating from them whatsoever is sacriliege. -I don't necessarily care about stats- Stats change. I care about canon. I care about conformity. I care about quality. I care about continuity. I care about the intangibles that you seem to not be able to wrap you mind around. Bandy words all you like. In the end, he sells millions of books because his books appeal to the non DnD crowd too. He has openly stated he doesn't really care too much for stats or rules when writing his book. If that gets your panties in a twist, so be it. -No, no it's not. That millions and millions of people buy a specific popular rapper's CD does not make said rapper a "poet". What is popular- especially nowadays- is not, in any way, indicative of quality of any sort. A fool following a fool is more foolish than the fool he follows. Again, that is your opinion. However, since he is one of the bestselling authors who sells millions, apparently millions disagree with you. One large basis for judging how good a book is is popularity. If ity sucked, it would not sell. This isn't comparable to a burger a McDonalds. This is a book that sells because others recommend it. Several people who work in bookstores at candlekeep mentioned in a thread that they sell roughly 15 of his books for every 1 of any other FR author. Denying that popularity is part of judging how good a book is is just your way of dodging the fact that he is a top seller. -Firstly, the New York Times is a horribly biased newspaper. I take everything I read therewithin with as much of a grain of salt as I take everything I read in the Post. The only way to get a real measure of what is actually going on it to read the two consecutivley, actually- Far Left + Far Right = Truth (more or less). -Anyway, reviewers working for the times do not look for the same things that we (the collective Boards Sages) look for. If an elitist newspaper columnist loves his work, fine. But, that said columnist raves about his writing does not mean that it is up to snuff in the terms that actually matter to us. No actually, it is among the most respected newspapers, and this is your way of demeaning his achievements and artfully dodging counter arguments. Do yourself a favor. google the words "forgotten realms" and "Bestseller"(Leave out the words NY times), and tell me what you come up with? Almost all Salvatore for pages and pages. How come other authors do not come up as often with the word bestseller? Explain? On Cunningham's site, the only book it ever said was a bestseller of hers was a star wars book. -The series is called R.A. Salvatore's War of the Spider Queen because the idea behind the plot, and the "executive designer" was Salvatore. Also, if the books within the series became bestsellers, this is reflective on the individual authors. Those other authors have sold other books. Name their bestsellers. I suspect that Sacrifice of the widow by Smeid, and Kemps Erevis Cale books will come up, but name some more? Salvatore's name and plot undeniably helped sell that series. Denying it is just hater talk. -Proper nouns, like names, are capitalized. Notice, however, that you could not refute what I said, and simply resorted to namecalling instead. I refuted what you said. Comparing him to hitler(A totally non comparable and ridiculous comparison that has no bearing on this discussion), is just ridiculous. Nobody would support that comparison. Also, nitpicking about spelling and punctuation doesn't help your argument. People make mistakes typing 200 words per minute. -Unfortunatley, no. But again, this does not mean that Salvatore is a good author. Remember, it is the "few hundred Hardcore DnD nerds" that have the loud megaphones, in the sea of millions. So continue complaining while he gets rich.
GothicDan 08-12-07, 11:07 AM	The point is, it doesn't matter. In the end, Salvatore wrote it his way, and nobody stopped him. And no one stopped the Nazis from genocide initially, but that doesn't justify what they did. Salvatore's novels are quality work, and they sell by the millions. I won't comment on the quality of his work - writing is an art and thus impossible to judge. I don't particularly like his style. But don't judge the potential overall quality of ANYTHING by how popular it is among the masses.
Stigger 08-12-07, 11:26 AM	Think perhaps this could be done with a little less inflammatory language and the like? Tensions getting a bit high in here... And I think LK's getting at the idea that it may be a popular, compelling story, and that's great, but that does not necessarily mean that it meshes well with established canon. Its quality very much depends on what criteria one uses to judge it by... which very much supports Dan's point about quality of work being impossible to judge is pretty much spot on, since we all judge things from our own perspectives ultimately.
Questing GM 08-12-07, 11:53 AM	Let's just understand our differences and leave it as that. Unless someone can call for a reconciliation ? ;)
Eli_the_Tanner 08-12-07, 01:04 PM	Think perhaps this could be done with a little less inflammatory language and the like? Tensions getting a bit high in here... Aye, Stigger's right. Some of these points are getting a bit personal and drifting somewhat from the original subject matter. Perhaps someone could set up a thread elsewhere that addresses the issue of what constitutes Canon and where and when interpretation should take place.
NorthsDefender 08-12-07, 03:16 PM	Well here in Germany R.A. Salvatore is almost the only FR author you will see in mainstream bookstores. It says something about popularity. And pls pls stop comparing Salvatore to Hitler or his way of writing to the shoa. It really makes every person with a feeling for history sick. Guess what? Tomorrow all FR books and all knowledge about it could diesappear, but nobody will die because of it.
MarkusTay63 08-12-07, 08:31 PM	And if good 'ol Adolf were alive today, we could have had him do the cover art for Grand Hisotry of the Realms. :P Then maybe he wouldn't turn out to be such a big meeny-head. Seriously, I'm not a Drow-fanboy but RAS's writing is top-notch. Call it artistic license, call it "I-don't-give-a-f__k", but whatever his reasons for changing things to fit the story - thats what writers do. The funny thing is, the only one of his books I didn't enjoy was Spine of the World, which got mucho critical acclaim. So much for critics. They actually enjoyed a whiney, emo, Conan-wanna-be, but personally, drunken abusive Wulfgar stories make me sick. I skip-read through the entire thing, because I couldn't take most of it (just like I skip EVERY one of Drizzt's crappy monologues at the beginning of each chapter). Jeez, I thought at least Dan would have loved the Hunter's blade trilogy - Orcs and Drow killing each other, and not a single Elven fatality. ;) Say what you want, but the man can spin a good yarn, canon be damned. Incidently, anyone who owns the old 2e Bloodstone Lands sourcebook - read the back cover. We have a prelude of exactly what Salvatore thought about 'sticking to the rules' way back then. :D
Alurvelve 08-12-07, 11:11 PM	Actually there is a Elven fatality in the Hunter's Blade trilogy.
MarkusTay63 08-13-07, 12:28 AM	I don't remember... who? :confused: Maybe I shouldn't have skipped the combat scenes either... :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 01:00 AM	What defines who is a good author or not? Also, can I have a megaphone? -The first question is complicated. The second question? Sure, why not. :: Hands over a megaphone :: Besides, I think if the authors had to conform to game rules for a fantasy type novel, it would get extreamly lame and boring to read. -As I said somewhere or other, a balance of poetic license and established fact needs to be achieved. Leaning too heavily in one direction or another upsets the balance, and leads to problems, as has been demonstrated. If RAS's novels bother you, why not try excluding the events therein from your campaigns? It might make things easier. -I don't campaign in the Realms. Fanboy is the guy defending Canon rules like the comic book guy from the simpsons and saying deviating from them whatsoever is sacriliege. -Good thing I specifically mentioned that I don't necessarily care about rules. :rolleyes: In the end, he sells millions of books because his books appeal to the non DnD crowd too. -And, that has to do with his ability to stay true to canon how? He has openly stated he doesn't really care too much for stats or rules when writing his book. -Which is a horrible trait for an author in a shared world, where said author is not even the creator thereof. However, since he is one of the bestselling authors who sells millions, apparently millions disagree with you. -Which doesn't make me incorrect. Millions once believed that the sun orbits the Earth. Several people who work in bookstores at candlekeep mentioned in a thread that they sell roughly 15 of his books for every 1 of any other FR author. -Citation, please? Denying that popularity is part of judging how good a book is is just your way of dodging the fact that he is a top seller. -Again, the ability to place on a "Bestseller List" is not indicative of his ability to produce quality FR Novels. No actually, it is among the most respected newspapers... -Yes, by the same upper elite who publish it. How many scandals have rocked the Times in the past few years? Plagiarism, inaccurate reporting, ignoring certain facts over others to portray those they disagree with in an unfavorable light- Yeah, great reporting- Which is why I compensate by reading one rag along with another...:rolleyes: and this is your way of demeaning his achievements and artfully dodging counter arguments. Do yourself a favor. google the words "forgotten realms" and "Bestseller"(Leave out the words NY times), and tell me what you come up with? Almost all Salvatore for pages and pages. How come other authors do not come up as often with the word bestseller? Explain? On Cunningham's site, the only book it ever said was a bestseller of hers was a star wars book. -Again, the ability to place on a "Bestseller List" is not indicative of the ability to produce quality FR Novels. Elaine is considered one of the three top FR Authors, along with Ed Greenwood and Steve Schend. Those other authors have sold other books. Name their bestsellers. I suspect that Sacrifice of the widow by Smeid, and Kemps Erevis Cale books will come up, but name some more? Salvatore's name and plot undeniably helped sell that series. -You still seem to be missing the point that a book that is considered a "bestseller" can still be a crappy book, as far as the Forgotten Realms go. The Double Diamond Triangle series could have theoretically been lauded as a "groundbreaking undertaking". The books would still be the red-headed stepchildren of FR Novels, however. Denying it is just hater talk. -Where have I heard that paraphrased before? :rolleyes: I refuted what you said. Comparing him to hitler(A totally non comparable and ridiculous comparison that has no bearing on this discussion), is just ridiculous. Nobody would support that comparison. -Obviously, since others have supported what I brought up, it isn't as off-the-wall as you believe it to be. Also, nitpicking about spelling and punctuation doesn't help your argument. -Sure it does. The entire point of a debate is to disqualify your opponent, through any mean. Highlighting your lack of aptitude in commanding the English language, in any situation, is just another way to "score points". People make mistakes typing 200 words per minute. -Good thing you're not typing at 200 words per minute, then. So continue complaining while he gets rich. -Oh, believe-you-me, I intend to do so. And no one stopped the Nazis from genocide initially, but that doesn't justify what they did. -Dan, stop being so geeky. ;) :rolleyes: And pls pls stop comparing Salvatore to Hitler or his way of writing to the shoa. It really makes every person with a feeling for history sick. Guess what? Tomorrow all FR books and all knowledge about it could diesappear, but nobody will die because of it. -You missed the point, which has been written twice now. That somebody does something, and is not "scolded" for it does not make what they are doing "right". -'Shoa' is capitalized as well, by the way. And if good 'ol Adolf were alive today, we could have had him do the cover art for Grand Hisotry of the Realms. :P Then maybe he wouldn't turn out to be such a big meeny-head. -He was a crappy artist. Hitler was already an established Anti-Semite long before he struck off on his own to enroll- and before rejected- at the Vienna Academy of Fine Arts. Seriously, I'm not a Drow-fanboy but RAS's writing is top-notch. Call it artistic license, call it "I-don't-give-a-f__k", but whatever his reasons for changing things to fit the story - thats what writers do. -Not in such a dynamic, shared setting such as the Realms. Jeez, I thought at least Dan would have loved the Hunter's blade trilogy - Orcs and Drow killing each other, and not a single Elven fatality. ;) -There was a fatality- Innovindil's Elven companion whom Drizzt "replaced". Say what you want, but the man can spin a good yarn, canon be damned. -In a shared world, the "I, Me, Mine" outlook should be stamped out, not encouraged!
GothicDan 08-13-07, 01:58 AM	I will never stop being geeky. And I was NOT 'comparing RAS to Hitler.' I am truly amazed at how people can misconstrue analogies on these boards.
Alurvelve 08-13-07, 02:19 AM	A certain elven female's companion was offed in the trilogy. If you still do not figure out who it was pm me and I will tell you there.
GothicDan 08-13-07, 04:20 AM	LK already stated it in his post.
Diffan 08-13-07, 08:52 AM	Aye, poor Tarathiel. Being cut in half as he was really puts a downer on your day. :( Sorry, is that better?
Eli_the_Tanner 08-13-07, 09:06 AM	Are people not breaking the 'Novel discussion' rules by stating some of the events in the books....I'm sure those would be considered spoliers'. Oh, and thanks Diffan.
Diffan 08-13-07, 09:48 AM	-I don't campaign in the Realms. so, if you don't play in the realms, then you really don't care about the NPC's stats. What your mad about is when authors write in the past that has already been written and change things right? From what i've read in the FRCS about Obould and his plots and what-not, there really doesn't seem to be too much of a change in the history. All it really mentions is that he's on a rise with a mighty orc horde and that people in the Silver Marches should watch out. That hasn't changed with his novels. Now, I haven't been able to snag me a Silver Marches source book yet, but I dont think it really mentions it further either. Besides stats and abilities of his characters, his novels don't really mess with the timeline other than the fact that it wasn't mentioned in the FRCS or Silver Marches explicidly(sp?). Just because it doesn't show up in those books, doesn't mean that it didn't happen or is happening.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-13-07, 09:56 AM	From what i've read in the FRCS about Obould and his plots and what-not, there really doesn't seem to be too much of a change in the history. All it really mentions is that he's on a rise with a mighty orc horde and that people in the Silver Marches should watch out. That hasn't changed with his novels. My point exactly, there is no problem with obould canon-wise...yet. Now, I haven't been able to snag me a Silver Marches source book yet, but I dont think it really mentions it further either. Besides stats and abilities of his characters, his novels don't really mess with the timeline other than the fact that it wasn't mentioned in the FRCS or Silver Marches explicidly(sp?). Just because it doesn't show up in those books, doesn't mean that it didn't happen or is happening. See my posts above for what the Silver Marches says about Obould and the what this potentially means in Salvatores novels.
Stigger 08-13-07, 10:18 AM	Think LK is getting at the idea that RAS just essentially invalidated the FCRS book itself in relation to several NPC is mentions, at least by all appearances, all through backdating stories and apparently ignoring what has been written in the FRCS, which he thinks is poor form for any author to do, at least if I'm understanding his points correctly. To be honest, I'd tend to agree with him by and large on that point.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-13-07, 06:56 PM	Think LK is getting at the idea that RAS just essentially invalidated the FCRS book itself in relation to several NPC is mentions, at least by all appearances, all through backdating stories and apparently ignoring what has been written in the FRCS, which he thinks is poor form for any author to do, at least if I'm understanding his points correctly. To be honest, I'd tend to agree with him by and large on that point. I agree with LK's overall point on how authour's should respect canon and attempt to ensure they remain faithful to the lore that has gone before - this all adds to our shared world and enriches the Forgotten Realms. However from reading the latest trilogy by RAS I don't think he has contradicted anything in the FRCS and SM's with regards to this specific character......yet. All is possible though in the coming trilogy...
MarkHall 08-13-07, 07:10 PM	A friend of mine says that he met R.A. Salvatore at a con years ago, and Mr. Salvatore said that he intentionally ignores rules at least one place in every book, just so players can't point to his books and say "See? It happened in Night Masks". Obviously, I can't verify this.
MarkusTay63 08-13-07, 10:24 PM	-Which doesn't make me incorrect. Millions once believed that the sun orbits the Earth.It doesn't? :confused: Have you been to Outer-space, or do you just believe all the lies NASA tells you? They can't even seem to duplicate a feat we were able to perform regularly over thirty years ago. And if you listen to the Astro-physicists, I heard they all play D&D, so I wouldn't believe anything thing from a bunch of nerds with over-active imaginations. Nothing can be proven, because even the math is a lie, don't you know that? ;) -Again, the ability to place on a "Bestseller List" is not indicative of his ability to produce quality FR Novels.Thats pretty subjective; like I said earlier, his most critically acclaimed novel was the only one I didn't enjoy. I also happen to think Stephen King is a hack - I've read good horror and he wouldn't know it if it hit him in the face. And lets not forget J.K Rowling - bestselling BILLIONAIRE auther of children's books. Technically, if every book store orders half a dozen copies, along with every library, the book becomes a bestseller before a single consumer has touched a copy. It's really not that hard to have a 'best seller', considering there is no concrete numbers involved what-so-ever. On a world with 5 billion people, how hard is it to sell 10,000 copies of something? I know college professors that write text-books, and then assign them to their students as 'required reading'. Figure thats around maybe 300 students a semester, 600 huindred a year, etc, etc... in a couple of years the school is billing it's academia as 'best-selling' authors - and its only because they forced people to purchase their book. I have read books that were considered 'pulp' (like Robert Howard stuff), yet enjoyed them thoroughly. Other times I have read 'acclaimed' novels, and found them wanting. I'm not really taking sides here, but 'dark heroes' usually sell more books. :smirk: --Yes, by the same upper elite who publish it. How many scandals have rocked the Times in the past few years? Plagiarism, inaccurate reporting, ignoring certain facts over others to portray those they disagree with in an unfavorable light- Yeah, great reporting- Which is why I compensate by reading one rag along with another. As Agent K says in MIB, if you want the truth, read the Enquirer; "best investigative reporting on the planet". :P -Again, the ability to place on a "Bestseller List" is not indicative of the ability to produce quality FR Novels. Elaine is considered one of the three top FR Authors, along with Ed Greenwood and Steve Schend.That's why Elaine (and Ed and Schend) will always find it harder to write bestsellers - they CARE more about the Realms then about what will yank a reader's chain. We are comparing apples and oranges here... --He was a crappy artist. Hitler was already an established Anti-Semite long before he struck off on his own to enroll- and before rejected- at the Vienna Academy of Fine Arts.Yet, his paintings sell for more then masterpieces now... go figure. ;) -Not in such a dynamic, shared setting such as the Realms.As a lover of lore and all things FR, I would agree with you. As a business man, who knows how to market his cash-cow, I would have to give him a VERY long leash. You may not like Drizzt, or RAS, but he has brought the Realms into the mainstream, which is not a good thing, it is a GREAT thing. Just about everyone in charge has 'ret-conned' material hundreds of times in the past, and people get upset about a little thing like an Orc's stats? I heard people cry about Mithral Hall no longer being a dungeon - but what about Tilverton, Shade, that crazy Dark Elf city (you know, the one with NO Dark Elves in it), Khelben, Halaster, Azoun, the Shadow Weave, the ToT... Those are issues worth getting upset over, not some Orc king-wannabe who will most likely get killed off in the next series, or one of two hundred abandoned Dwarven Strongholds that adventurers 'might have' explored. The guy changes stuff, but he doesn't change IMPORTANT stuff, so that makes him only a minor villain in my book. -There was a fatality- Innovindil's Elven companion whom Drizzt "replaced".Jeez... no clue who you are talking about. The only elves I remember were all Dark ones... Oh wait! Are you guys talking about the chick who was into my little pony? I forgot all about her! Gawd, was that ever a STUPID sub-plot.... -In a shared world, the "I, Me, Mine" outlook should be stamped out, not encouraged!Like I said above, this holds true for sourcebook designers, and most authors. But you don't tie the hands of one of your 'best' authors, even if for the greater good. As a last comment on this, I don't think a bestseller neccesarily has to be written by a good writer, and good writers often never publish a bestseller. Its more about the story, and the 'timely-ness' of it. Sometimes someone just happens to write something that touches at a deep need within us, not just as individuals, but as a society. So don't get offended just because a million or so people dissagree with your opinion, because not everyone reads FR novels for the same reasons.
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 10:50 PM	It doesn't? :confused: -Nope, it doesn't. Don't worry, though. Have you been to Outer-space, or do you just believe all the lies NASA tells you? They can't even seem to duplicate a feat we were able to perform regularly over thirty years ago. And if you listen to the Astro-physicists, I heard they all play D&D, so I wouldn't believe anything thing from a bunch of nerds with over-active imaginations. -No, I didn't listen to NASA. Channukah Harry told me. Nothing can be proven, because even the math is a lie, don't you know that? ;) -Yeah, I seem to remember a Pope or two condemning math as an instrument of the Devil. As Agent K says in MIB, if you want the truth, read the Enquirer; "best investigative reporting on the planet". :P -What's that newspaper with the great headlines? The Weekly World News: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekly_World_News Yet, his paintings sell for more then masterpieces now... go figure. ;) -Well, that's kinda because, you know, who he is. As a lover of lore and all things FR, I would agree with you. As a business man, who knows how to market his cash-cow, I would have to give him a VERY long leash. You may not like Drizzt, or RAS, but he has brought the Realms into the mainstream, which is not a good thing, it is a GREAT thing. -The time has come to choose sides. Join me, and together, we can take over the universe...:emp: Just about everyone in charge has 'ret-conned' material hundreds of times in the past, and people get upset about a little thing like an Orc's stats? I heard people cry about Mithral Hall no longer being a dungeon - but what about Tilverton, Shade, that crazy Dark Elf city (you know, the one with NO Dark Elves in it), Khelben, Halaster, Azoun, the Shadow Weave, the ToT... Those are issues worth getting upset over, not some Orc king-wannabe who will most likely get killed off in the next series, or one of two hundred abandoned Dwarven Strongholds that adventurers 'might have' explored. -Mithral Hall was never a dungeon to be explored. It was created by Salvatore in his novels, and was never "availible" to players before the Company of the Hall liberated it. -Anyway, you know how we all complain about things such as the Shadow Weave, the Great Tree Cosmology and Halaster's death. Those things deserve to be complained about. -Things that don't deserve to be complained about, because they were "carried out correctly", such as Azoun, or Khelben's death. Thus, the majority of us really don't complain about them. The guy changes stuff, but he doesn't change IMPORTANT stuff, so that makes him only a minor villain in my book. -Snowballs start avalanches. Jeez... no clue who you are talking about. The only elves I remember were all Dark ones... Oh wait! Are you guys talking about the chick who was into my little pony? I forgot all about her! Gawd, was that ever a STUPID sub-plot.... -Innovindil, one of the two Moon Elves who flew around mounted on a Pegasus. She had a companion, and, I believe, a lover. Obould kind of put a damper on his day. Drizzt kind of 'replaced' him. Like I said above, this holds true for sourcebook desighners, and most authors. But you don't tie the hands of one of your 'best' authors, even if for the greater good. -Sure I would. In a baseball game, if you are having problems with one of your players, you bench him. You're the manager. He's the player. Look at Billy Martin and Reggie. Sometimes someone just happens to write something that touches at a deep need within us, not just as individuals, but as a society. -As a society, we yearn to kill Orcs. :P So don't get offended just because a million or so people dissagree with your opinion, because not everyone reads FR novels for the same reasons. -That hasn't bothered me in the past, and it won't bother me now. Hell, something like 49% of the United States of America didn't agree with me the last time I went to the polls and cast a ballot.
creyzi4zb12 08-14-07, 06:38 AM	Aye, poor Tarathiel. Being cut in half as he was really puts a downer on your day. :( Sorry, is that better? Hahaha!! That guy got owned BIG-TIME.....That's what you get for trying to parry a "flaming-illusion-feint-attack-that-you-think-was-coming-from-below-but-was-actually-coming-from-above" by Obould.:P ... That certain line in the story made my day complete... Then the orcs started screaming.... :dancin: Obould!! Obould!! Obould!! Obould!! Obould!! Obould!! Obould!! Obould!! :dancin:
Stigger 08-14-07, 07:01 PM	Dunno if I'd classify Rowling's books as Children's Books since Order of the Phoenix... last one certainly wasn't. Good book by the way... for those of you who don't hate her on principle. Last movie was pretty good too... that massive wizards duel at the end was amazingly inspiring really. :D
MarkusTay63 08-14-07, 07:07 PM	Whatever. As a an FR afficionado, I would agree that in a shared world everyone should have to follow certain guidlines. Unfortunetly, you just can't give RAS the "there's no 'I' in team" speech. He knows who he is, and he just doesn't give a s__t about FR - he cares about selling books. Since selling books = making money, WotC are not about to 'hobble' him anytime soon. I'm not condoning his behaviour, merely explaining it. :rolleyes: My 'timelyness' comment was aimed more at certain other bestselling authors that I happen to know you dislike. ;) It all boils down to saying the right thing at the right time. How well you say it matters very little in the greater scheme of things. The same can be applied to tyrants, as well. :cool:
Lord Karsus 08-14-07, 07:19 PM	Dunno if I'd classify Rowling's books as Children's Books since Order of the Phoenix... last one certainly wasn't. -They began as childrens books, anyway. Unfortunetly, you just can't give RAS the "there's no 'I' in team" speech. -That would be awesome, though. ;) He knows who he is, and he just doesn't give a s__t about FR - he cares about selling books. Since selling books = making money, WotC are not about to 'hobble' him anytime soon. -And, it's for that reason that there will always be "fan-made" places and things, like Candlekeep, and everything contained within, for instance. My 'timelyness' comment was aimed more at certain other bestselling authors that I happen to know you dislike. ;) -What other authors do I dislike? Rowling? -I'll let it be known that I don't dislike her, I just dislike her books. It all boils down to saying the right thing at the right time. How well you say it matters very little in the greater scheme of things. The same can be applied to tyrants, as well. :cool: -Yeah, that's how most of 'em rise to power. They say what the masses want to hear, when they want to hear it...
Eli_the_Tanner 08-14-07, 08:08 PM	Time for a new question I think, to help the OP get fully explored. King Obould Many-Arrows, ruler of dark arrow keep, leader of the orc hordes of the spine of the world (at least the most well known) and one of the current 'great threats' to the Silver Marches....is Level 9. Do we think that his official stats represent what arguably the most powerful, inspirational orc in the North should be? Despite what the WOTC designers think or R.A. Salvatore can an orc of Obould's prominence really get away with being level 9 in orc culture and The North?
GothicDan 08-14-07, 08:41 PM	That's kind of hard to answer. To accomplish what Obould did according to RAS, I imagine he would have to be around 18th level (around Drizzt's).
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-14-07, 10:20 PM	That's kind of hard to answer. To accomplish what Obould did according to RAS, I imagine he would have to be around 18th level (around Drizzt's). Can we really judge by that route though? How he was written? According to how Salvatore wrote Drizzt, he became better through experience than his teacher, who was a level 24 drow fighter, but Drizzt is only level 18. Technically, Drizzt should be higher level just based upon the fact that he was more skilled than a level 24 pure fighter several fights in a row.
GothicDan 08-14-07, 10:24 PM	Or he rolled well. Or his father psychologically was fighting a little less hard than usual, or whatever. This is why basing stats on novels alone can be a super bad idea, and it's almost completely impossible to do for non-spellcasters, whose general abilities can be easily determined by the spells he/she casts, whereas there's no clear benchmark abilities for non-spellcasters.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-14-07, 10:30 PM	Or he rolled well. Or his father psychologically was fighting a little less hard than usual, or whatever. This is why basing stats on novels alone can be a super bad idea, and it's almost completely impossible to do for non-spellcasters, whose general abilities can be easily determined by the spells he/she casts, whereas there's no clear benchmark abilities for non-spellcasters. Meh. Its hard to say "He rolled well" for years and years. They started considering Drizzt Zaknafein's equal before he even graduated from the academy. The way the book was written was meant to consider Drizzt either equal to, or greater than Zaknafein. After his time in the underdark gave him a barbarian level, he was considered twice as dangerous as he was when he was only Zak's equal. He became his better according to the novels. Silly as it is for a young elf to somehow level to 24. Drizzt technically has to be considered higher than 18th level since he was able to beat a 24th level several times, and very clearly stated as the better.
Alurvelve 08-14-07, 10:52 PM	The wayi look at the whole Drizzt vs Zak fights is the same way as Vader vs Luke. Zak was just teaching him, every so often Drizzt would get the upper hand which is good means he was learning. But never in the books did Drizzt defeat a fully battle ready Zak of his own free will. During thier sparring sessions he would get a few good blows, or lucky hits and Zak would comment on them but he never actually defeated him. When they fought and Zak was under Zin-carla Zak could not fight at his full potential because he was being controlled through another. But thats just my 2 cents.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-14-07, 11:33 PM	It's interesting how these questions can quickly turn back to the age old Drizzt v Zaknafein debate again. I'm assuming that Obould was only a match for Drizzt due to the ritual he had undergone. I was thinking about how it was possible for a 'king' of the orcs to rise to such an unassailable postion of power at only level 9. Generally in orc culture, it is might makes right that is the prevailing philosophy. Especially among a Barbarian culture where ritualised combat and feats of strength determine the rather tenuous hierarchy. If this is carried to it's logical conclusion - Obould is the highest orc level character among the tribes. Excluding Shaman who serve a separate function in orc society, Obould is basically the toughest orc warrior you'll meet. This causes some questions if this is true or not, which I think the boards can help address. If he is the highest level then this seems a very small power range that the varied orcs fall within. Secondly does he have enough power to completely dominate in the way he does? However if he is not the most powerful then how has he avoided being dethroned by stonger orcs and why did he get to his postion in the first place? Of course, he has been noted for his great intellect (13?!) among orckind which could help explain his postion. By manipulating the Shaman and outwitting his rivals it is possible to stand head and shoulders above his peers. However this may mean he may only be remarkable for being the weakest orc to ever rule the hordes....I find this abit far-fetched though and somewhat strained. There you go, that should be enough for you to chew on for awhile....ahem.
creyzi4zb12 08-15-07, 08:03 AM	Drizzt has a possible chance of killing Zak even if u consider stats. Supposed he rolls 20 for four consecutive times. That would pawn his father. As for Obould....I dunno what's wrong with him. But I have a feeling that when a new edition in DnD comes his stats are going to be upgraded.
GothicDan 08-15-07, 11:42 AM	Well, we know that the most powerful Barbarian leader of the Narfell tribes was 30th level. :)
ShadezofDis 08-15-07, 11:58 AM	It's been stated before, but I'm just going to reiterate. Drizzt WAS NOT better than Zak. He has the potential to be (and, at this point, could well be) but he never beat Zak, not once. Now, as for the whole Obould debate. He'd be fine as is if this were 2E (well, ok, that's debatable, 2E had some heavy level inflation as well), but with the mega-level inflation we've been subject to he becomes rather lacking. The only way, as presented in the FRCS, he'd present a credible threat is if the Silver Marches were ignorant of his rise. A group of stealthy, mid level adventurers could take him out (as he's presented). Personally, I really like his level and I wish there were more characters of a like level. Point in fact, I tend to make that the level of most "civic leaders" and what not (and, truth be told, most are aristocrats or experts, sometimes with a few warrior or commoner levels thrown in). However, as things stand, I do believe that Obould would need more levels and the leadership feat to truly present a threat to the Silver Marches. Now, if we were to go the standard "orcish horde" deal then he'd be absolutely fine as is, however, since he's trying to break orcs out of the lifestyle they have been living for centuries he should really have the ability to stand up to the shamans.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-15-07, 12:29 PM	It's been stated before, but I'm just going to reiterate. Drizzt WAS NOT better than Zak. He has the potential to be (and, at this point, could well be) but he never beat Zak, not once. Now, as for the whole Obould debate. He'd be fine as is if this were 2E (well, ok, that's debatable, 2E had some heavy level inflation as well), but with the mega-level inflation we've been subject to he becomes rather lacking. The only way, as presented in the FRCS, he'd present a credible threat is if the Silver Marches were ignorant of his rise. A group of stealthy, mid level adventurers could take him out (as he's presented). Personally, I really like his level and I wish there were more characters of a like level. Point in fact, I tend to make that the level of most "civic leaders" and what not (and, truth be told, most are aristocrats or experts, sometimes with a few warrior or commoner levels thrown in). However, as things stand, I do believe that Obould would need more levels and the leadership feat to truly present a threat to the Silver Marches. Now, if we were to go the standard "orcish horde" deal then he'd be absolutely fine as is, however, since he's trying to break orcs out of the lifestyle they have been living for centuries he should really have the ability to stand up to the shamans. It can be argued either way. It was stated in the book that Zak as the spirit Wraith was even more powerful than he was in life, and Drizzt wounded him several times in a manner that would have killed him had he been living and breathing. Some argue him as a wraith was detrimental, some argue he was better as the wraith. Nobody knows. Its purely opinion. Zaknafein himself referred to Drizzt as his fighting equal(In the book), and in earnest, also stating he would become more eventually. This came up often on his official website, Salvatore in his interactive threads, said Drizzt equalled Zak before Zak died if you have time to dig through his ton of interactive threads and responses. Drizzt was meant to be considered greater than Zak eventually. He equalled him according to Salvatore's interactives.
godbeepit 08-15-07, 12:35 PM	I was under the impression that Obould was put at level nine so that the Realms have a published NPC villain that low-mid level adventurers can deal with. Otherwise, there would be only high-level pre-made challenges. If I recall correctly, almost all the other NPCs presented in the book are level 16+. It seems to me that the designers wanted to support all levels of play with their published material, rather than go "ZOMG! Look what I can do!!"
ShadezofDis 08-15-07, 12:42 PM	It can be argued either way. It was stated in the book that Zak as the spirit Wraith was even more powerful than he was in life, and Drizzt wounded him several times in a manner that would have killed him had he been living and breathing. Some argue him as a wraith was detrimental, some argue he was better as the wraith. Nobody knows. Its purely opinion. Zaknafein himself referred to Drizzt as his fighting equal(In the book), and in earnest, also stating he would become more eventually. This came up often on his official website, Salvatore in his interactive threads, said Drizzt equalled Zak before Zak died if you have time to dig through his ton of interactive threads and responses. Drizzt was meant to be considered greater than Zak eventually. He equalled him according to Salvatore's interactives. Author statements make it easy, I don't have time to look through his site (nor the desire) but I trust you. Of course, I don't think Salvatore presented that well at all, nor do I like the idea of a baby being able to take out one of the best fighters in a city with amazing fighters. As for the spiritwraith argument, it's pretty well stated in the books that Malice held Zak's ability back because if she allowed that to come to the fore then Zak would gain control (which is exactly what happened). In other words, Zak wasn't fighting as well as he would have otherwise. Regardless of all that, if Salvator says so then that's the way it is, I just wish he had presented it in a better manner and that he hadn't made mr uber drow fighter who's better than the best at a fraction of the age.
ShadezofDis 08-15-07, 12:47 PM	I was under the impression that Obould was put at level nine so that the Realms have a published NPC villain that low-mid level adventurers can deal with. Otherwise, there would be only high-level pre-made challenges. If I recall correctly, almost all the other NPCs presented in the book are level 16+. It seems to me that the designers wanted to support all levels of play with their published material, rather than go "ZOMG! Look what I can do!!" Heh, if they wanted to support all levels of play then they would have created a lot more low level NPCs. As is, there's stat blocks for NPCs that shouldn't even HAVE stat blocks. Just so that people can go "ZOMG! Look who I can kill!!!!"
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-15-07, 01:17 PM	Author statements make it easy, I don't have time to look through his site (nor the desire) but I trust you. Of course, I don't think Salvatore presented that well at all, nor do I like the idea of a baby being able to take out one of the best fighters in a city with amazing fighters. As for the spiritwraith argument, it's pretty well stated in the books that Malice held Zak's ability back because if she allowed that to come to the fore then Zak would gain control (which is exactly what happened). In other words, Zak wasn't fighting as well as he would have otherwise. Regardless of all that, if Salvator says so then that's the way it is, I just wish he had presented it in a better manner and that he hadn't made mr uber drow fighter who's better than the best at a fraction of the age. It really doesn;t make sense for a 60 year old drow to surpass a 400 year old weapon master. But hey...his books rock.
MarkHall 08-15-07, 01:32 PM	As is, there's stat blocks for NPCs that shouldn't even HAVE stat blocks. Just so that people can go "ZOMG! Look who I can kill!!!!" Hey, I have that book! It's called Faiths and Pantheons.
ShadezofDis 08-15-07, 02:28 PM	Hey, I have that book! It's called Faiths and Pantheons. Haha, too true, WAY too true. A little mini story, instead of a stats block, would have been FAR more useful.
Stigger 08-15-07, 03:10 PM	Painfully true... sometimes it does make you wonder what was going through some minds at the time.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-15-07, 05:17 PM	I think it was the sound of money filling their wallets...
MarkHall 08-15-07, 05:41 PM	The problem with that argument, Eli, is that we still would've bought F&P if it contained homilies on the deity. In fact, we'd probably be a lot more behind it if it actually contained those things, instead of a stat block. We can't say "They were only after the money, so they published stat blocks"... a stat block doesn't make them more money than stories, because we're still going to buy the book for everything else. What it's going to do is reduce the whiskey tango foxtrot aspect of the book. But I don't care. I have the 2nd edition books, so can look up useful information on all the gods, anyway.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-15-07, 06:10 PM	I do think that one would have more use out of said book if it contained more lore and less stats - see the immensly handy Core Beliefs articles that appear in Dragon magazines. I remember after first reading F&P and feeling like I would never look at my level 2 fighter in the same way again. It made the game just feel like numbers....100+ to AC, attack, skills etc. It took ages for a +1 to mean something to me again. When would I ever need to know that my deity has +144 on use rope!
Stigger 08-15-07, 07:00 PM	Dunno... could come in handy if you need to summon an avatar to untie a particularly pesky knot...
Eli_the_Tanner 08-15-07, 07:11 PM	Dunno... could come in handy if you need to summon an avatar to untie a particularly pesky knot... Reminds me of the age-old question 'could a diety tie a knot that even he could not untie?
Stigger 08-15-07, 07:25 PM	Heh, old evil theology questions... though I usually hear it as create a rock even he could not lift. Though that does kinda involve accepting a monotheistic point of view, which I don't do on principle. ;) :D
MarkHall 08-15-07, 08:20 PM	Heh, old evil theology questions... though I usually hear it as create a rock even he could not lift. Though that does kinda involve accepting a monotheistic point of view, which I don't do on principle. ;) :D Actually, the standard answer to that one is that "God could create a rock so large he couldn't lift it, and then he could lift it." However, the FR deities don't have as good of a publicist... they've got more competition, and few of them claim to be infinite.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-15-07, 08:27 PM	The Paradoxical nature of an Omnipotent entity is still out of the reach of even the most sophisticated stat-block. -Ooh dear, I seem to have become involved in a tangent.
godbeepit 08-15-07, 11:33 PM	-Ooh dear, I seem to have become involved in a tangent. But tangents are what make life fun! If it weren't for tangents then all those curves would be so lonely!
creyzi4zb12 08-16-07, 12:18 AM	Oh well....At least Obould kicked Drizzt's ass. Far as I know, he's more better than Drizzt in the match business. In first match Drizzt ran away for an unknown reason (some people say he couldn't beat him coz of armor, some say he had unfinished business to do.) BUt it was stated a lot of times in the book, that Drizzt's intention in the first place was to kill Obould and get on with his other problems in life. So the fact that he ran away after he got kicked could only mean one thing. He failed his first "close-attempt" and got his ass kicked. Blame the armor if u want. Blame Innovindil for not being there, blame the pegasus, blame the reason that he was a prisoner....yayaya...blame blame blame....People really make good excuses.
Diffan 08-16-07, 07:45 AM	Oh well....At least Obould kicked Drizzt's ass. Far as I know, he's more better than Drizzt in the match business. In first match Drizzt ran away for an unknown reason (some people say he couldn't beat him coz of armor, some say he had unfinished business to do.) BUt it was stated a lot of times in the book, that Drizzt's intention in the first place was to kill Obould and get on with his other problems in life. So the fact that he ran away after he got kicked could only mean one thing. He failed his first "close-attempt" and got his ass kicked. Blame the armor if u want. Blame Innovindil for not being there, blame the pegasus, blame the reason that he was a prisoner....yayaya...blame blame blame....People really make good excuses. Well, Salvatore can write it anyway he wants to, statistically Obould shouldn't have a chance in the Abyss to beating Drizzt. The stats don't add up and this is where we come back to square one with his stats should reflect his abilities written of. If you were to take the two characters stats from the FRCS, play them against each other, 9 times out of 10 Drizzt would own him if only because of the double amount of levels he has.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-16-07, 08:11 AM	Well, Salvatore can write it anyway he wants to, statistically Obould shouldn't have a chance in the Abyss to beating Drizzt. The stats don't add up and this is where we come back to square one with his stats should reflect his abilities written of. If you were to take the two characters stats from the FRCS, play them against each other, 9 times out of 10 Drizzt would own him if only because of the double amount of levels he has. Salvatore has stated he ignores stats for his book. Either way, stats are malleable anyways.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-16-07, 11:22 AM	This all sounds eerily familliar,
Lord Karsus 08-16-07, 10:32 PM	Hey, I have that book! It's called Faiths and Pantheons. :rimshot: This all sounds eerily familliar, -Well, I'm ready to have another go-at-it. ;)
Eli_the_Tanner 08-17-07, 09:56 AM	Well, Salvatore can write it anyway he wants to, statistically Obould shouldn't have a chance in the Abyss to beating Drizzt. The stats don't add up and this is where we come back to square one with his stats should reflect his abilities written of. If you were to take the two characters stats from the FRCS, play them against each other, 9 times out of 10 Drizzt would own him if only because of the double amount of levels he has. I'm not convinced of that, taken as they are in the FRCS, Obould is still a challenge for Drizzt. IIRC Obould has high Atk(+15ish); 20ish AC; alot of hp; and the nice crown of Fireballs. Drizzt has only +17/+16 to atk; 124hp; 23AC; and a pokemon. This abilities are not a world away from each other, especially as Obould dishes out more damage than Drizzt but has less attacks. Drizzt isn't the super-ranger stat-wise, he has been sub-optimised in the FRSC. Since then alot of Drizzt-inspired material has emerged in an effort to counter this.
MarkusTay63 08-19-07, 02:31 PM	I just found this on the WotC blogs - I'll be attending the Forgotten Realms seminar in the next hour or so. We have a few secrets to share, but one of the coolest hints of 'things to come' is revealed in Bob Salvatore's next book, The Orc King. We will be telling people that the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide will be coming out after the core rulebooks, in August of next year. I feel like I should drop a hint here for folks who can't be at the show. Maybe I'll do that after the seminar ... It seems I was right, and they really are pushing the timeline ahead to give RAS more room to write in. ;) That above quote should make creyzi happy, because obviously whatever changes RAS is making will still be around in ten years, which could only possibly point to an Orc Kingdom. I think monsters will finally be getting their long-awaited 'place in the sun' - although I've always advocated this, I'm a wee-bit sad for the Realms. I'll have to find a new cause now.... :allalone:
ShadezofDis 08-19-07, 03:39 PM	I just have to say that the whole idea of 4th edition just makes me puke in my mouth. Another friggin FRCS :nonono: Just a rehash of the same stuff we've gotten since 1E. I mean, it's what, 6 years of so since we got the 3.0 FRCS? That's just stupid. I get SO friggin annoyed that the focus of D&D is on the mathematic and statistical side, rather than the story and lore side. Wow. . . I can't think of anything I want to say at this point that wouldn't violate CoC in some pretty major ways.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-19-07, 04:13 PM	I imagine we will see periodic slating or Biggin' up of 4E in most threads for the next year. I say we let these posts pass by unless they pertain to the thread at hand. Otherwise every thread will return to the same discussion about 4E and the entire boards will become one big Tangent. -Not wanting to invalidate your contribution ShadezofDis but we should keep these opinions on separate threads.:D
ShadezofDis 08-20-07, 12:33 AM	-Not wanting to invalidate your contribution ShadezofDis but we should keep these opinions on separate threads.:D More than fair enough, I'd actually written a partial reply to Markus' comment about a monsterous kingdom, but it ended up being a bit too far off color to post. ;) Basically, all the tools are there to make a monsterous kingdom that works, what I fear is that we'll get a monsterous kingdom that is just stupid.
Lord Karsus 08-20-07, 09:21 AM	I just have to say that the whole idea of 4th edition just makes me puke in my mouth. -I am indifferent to a new edition of D&D, but I don't like how it is so soon. I mean, it's what, 6 years of so since we got the 3.0 FRCS? That's just stupid. -That's only three years in Realmstime. I agree that not too much has changed, overall, and that a new FRCS so soon is kind of...unnecessary.
ShadezofDis 08-20-07, 09:50 AM	-I am indifferent to a new edition of D&D, but I don't like how it is so soon. Yep, the reason it makes me puke in my mouth is that I can see no valid reason for a new edition. Well, other than to sell a bunch of PHBs again. I guess I'll withhold judgment until I see something of the reasoning behind it. -That's only three years in Realmstime. I agree that not too much has changed, overall, and that a new FRCS so soon is kind of...unnecessary. I just can't imagine what it could contain that would make it a worthwhile purchase. Unless you were going to run a 4th edition game and that may not even be necessary when it comes right down to it.
MarkusTay63 08-20-07, 07:28 PM	Actaully, it will be set in 1385, giving us 13 years between the two FRCS and 10 years between then and the current year (1375 DR). In that amount of time, they will be wrapping up all lose ends and storylines, and brand-new ones will be started. They've also hinted at changes to the map, which indicates kingdoms rising/falling. And Drizzt WILL still be a major character in the Realms - in fact, the way things sound, it may all just revolve around him (being the most powerful non-magical NPC). Now wouldn't that be an incredibly gross turn of events? :rolleyes:
Eli_the_Tanner 08-20-07, 08:57 PM	Actaully, it will be set in 1385, giving us 13 years between the two FRCS and 10 years between then and the current year (1375 DR). Markus, where did you hear this from? I haven't seen anything official yet on the new FRCS. Does this mean RAS will have to do a time skip, similar to the 6 six years skipped out between Legacy of the Drow and Paths of Darkness or will he simply fall further behind in the timeline. I fear if the latter is true then further issues between novels and sourcebooks will grow. Salvatore may soon become a retcon writer - slowly eating away at the previously established lore, especially if Drizzt become a more important character within the realms. I hope it doesn't come to that.
MarkHall 08-21-07, 02:04 AM	Here's a thought... age. Obould is not a young orc in 1372. His sons are approaching adulthood in the 3e FRCS, which mean they're about 13 or 14, which puts Obould around 28 or 30 in 1372. A 30 year old mountain orc is middle aged (page 69 of Races of Faerun). A 41 year old mountain orc is Old (youngest he's likely to be is 27 in the Realms; assumes he reached adulthood at 14, and his oldest son was born immediately after, and is now 13). Now, assuming Obould's sons are just as strong and ambitious as he is, he's likely to face challenges in his Old Age, to say nothing of venerable (which is only 50; he could concievably be older than 30, of course). Eventually, it's likely he'll lose.
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 02:28 AM	Markus, where did you hear this from? I haven't seen anything official yet on the new FRCS.It was in one of the official releases. Salvatore has always written his novels in the past (to many people's chagrin). This just gives him an extra 13 years to write novels in now. When he runs out of room the next time, it will be time for 5th edition. ;)
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 08:54 AM	-Not for nothing, but all hell really seems to be breaking loose...
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-21-07, 06:46 PM	It was in one of the official releases. Salvatore has always written his novels in the past (to many people's chagrin). This just gives him an extra 13 years to write novels in now. When he runs out of room the next time, it will be time for 5th edition. ;) Meh. People annoyed he writes behind the timelines really need to take a pill. 2 of his main characters are middle aged human fighters. Of course he is not just going to leap ahead several years when they are older and their skill is disappearing. He had to cut corners to get Entreri to stop aging. Its not like they can all just get Ioulaum's longevity.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-21-07, 07:13 PM	Did you hear that RPGA's living Greyhawk is transferring to forgotten realms in 4th edition. I wonder if Obould's new kingdom will be assigned a nation or state of it's own.
ShadezofDis 08-21-07, 07:24 PM	Meh. People annoyed he writes behind the timelines really need to take a pill. 2 of his main characters are middle aged human fighters. Of course he is not just going to leap ahead several years when they are older and their skill is disappearing. He had to cut corners to get Entreri to stop aging. Its not like they can all just get Ioulaum's longevity. If he maintained consistency with already published material then there would be no problem with him, it's when he contradicts that material that a problem arises. He doesn't need to contradict things, spending a bit of time thinking about the problem would let him find a way to keep consistency and write a good story. It is not a difficult thing to do. Further, people do not have their skills disappear in RL when they get a bit older. They get a bit slower and a bit more sore but they're still very able. Look at Roger Clemens or Nolan Ryan or career soldiers or 50 y/o construction workers.
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 07:59 PM	Hey! I'm only 43! Although I did retire from construction two years ago... Did you hear that RPGA's living Greyhawk is transferring to forgotten realms in 4th edition. I wonder if Obould's new kingdom will be assigned a nation or state of it's own.Now that would be funny as hell - Living Obould :evillaugh It would be like Living La Viva Loca :dancin: I did hear he is finally running out of arrows in 4e, which is strange since he never actually uses a bow... :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 09:08 PM	Look at Roger Clemens or... -The bastard...
Diffan 08-21-07, 09:52 PM	If he maintained consistency with already published material then there would be no problem with him, it's when he contradicts that material that a problem arises. He doesn't need to contradict things, spending a bit of time thinking about the problem would let him find a way to keep consistency and write a good story. It is not a difficult thing to do. I honestly don't see where he contradicts anything Realms-wise except for maybe stats. The write up in the FRCS clearly states that Obould is on a rise with an orc hoarde. His kingdom is relatively small compared to other nations/kingdoms and might not even change the map at all.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-21-07, 11:57 PM	I honestly don't see where he contradicts anything Realms-wise except for maybe stats. The write up in the FRCS clearly states that Obould is on a rise with an orc hoarde. His kingdom is relatively small compared to other nations/kingdoms and might not even change the map at all. Exactly. Stats are malleable. The honest truth is, Drizzt should have been ranked far higher than he was in sourcebooks. Someone screwed up and made him only level 16.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-22-07, 12:13 AM	Exactly. Stats are malleable. The honest truth is, Drizzt should have been ranked far higher than he was in sourcebooks. Someone screwed up and made him only level 16. Should he? He hasn't done anything much more demanding recently than hide from frost giants and kill some orcs. He's not been stretched physically beyond fighting Obould, who is argubly between 9 and 15 himself.
Lord Karsus 08-22-07, 12:43 AM	Should he? -Of course!!!1! He's Drisst!! Drissit Durden r0xXx!1!1!! :twitch:
Diffan 08-22-07, 07:57 AM	Should he? He hasn't done anything much more demanding recently than hide from frost giants and kill some orcs. He's not been stretched physically beyond fighting Obould, who is argubly between 9 and 15 himself. I dunno, there were some scenes where if not for this elven friends Innovindil and Tharatheil he'd probably of died against the orcs. But he's slew hundreds of them and goblins, killed his fair share of Frost Giants, Hill Giants, Trolls, drow maidens/priestesses, cunning drow warriors, etc.....Seems to me at the very least 16th if not higher. Though it could be said for Artemis as well.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-22-07, 09:16 AM	Should he? He hasn't done anything much more demanding recently than hide from frost giants and kill some orcs. He's not been stretched physically beyond fighting Obould, who is argubly between 9 and 15 himself. We could start this argument back up, but I would rather not, however I am going to say it anyways. He was the equal of Zaknafein, a level 24 fighter. You can make any amount of arguments you want over how "Zak wasn't at 100%", etc etc, however, one immutable fact remains. Salvatore said so, and it is his character. So if he says Drizzt is Zak's equal, Drizzt is Zak's equal. The end. According to Salvatore, he became at least equal to Zak during his time as the hunter in the underdark, and possibly more than(As I said earlier, if you want to go dig it up out of his million interactive thread pages, go ahead, there is something like 3500 replies, and I do not have time to go through them all, and search is broken on that site) http://p197.ezboard.com/frasalvatoreforumsfrm16 Whether or not it makes sense for a baby elf to become the equal of a 400 year old elf is beside the point.
ShadezofDis 08-22-07, 09:53 AM	I honestly don't see where he contradicts anything Realms-wise except for maybe stats. The write up in the FRCS clearly states that Obould is on a rise with an orc hoarde. His kingdom is relatively small compared to other nations/kingdoms and might not even change the map at all. I got caught up in the "parrot effect" though I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find that he has contradicted established lore. The things he does that annoy me to no end are; The ridiculous things he does for the sake of "drama" (ie. Alustriel's whole debacle in Siege of Darkness, she should have been wuppin some butt {mitigated by the Drow resistance to magic, but that shouldn't be a huge problem for an archmage who's been around for centuries} and the drow should have needed some hefty re-enforcements to deal with her, a matron mother or two would have done it) Well, that's actually pretty close to it, everything he does that screams stupid and lacks verisimilitude is what annoys me. Granted, these could be editor problems (ie. He writes coherently but when the editors get too it they cut out the parts that make the situations he sets up make sense) but since the books have his name on em he gets the blame. :) And it's just dumb that Drizzt was Zak's equal that early on.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-22-07, 09:57 AM	I got caught up in the "parrot effect" though I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find that he has contradicted established lore. The things he does that annoy me to no end are; The ridiculous things he does for the sake of "drama" (ie. Alustriel's whole debacle in Siege of Darkness, she should have been wuppin some butt {mitigated by the Drow resistance to magic, but that shouldn't be a huge problem for an archmage who's been around for centuries} and the drow should have needed some hefty re-enforcements to deal with her, a matron mother or two would have done it) Well, that's actually pretty close to it, everything he does that screams stupid and lacks verisimilitude is what annoys me. Granted, these could be editor problems (ie. He writes coherently but when the editors get too it they cut out the parts that make the situations he sets up make sense) but since the books have his name on em he gets the blame. :) And it's just dumb that Drizzt was Zak's equal that early on. Agreed. Especially on Alustriel. When I saw that she was going to take part in the battle, I started drooling. But her role was downplayed to the point that I was major disappointed.
ShadezofDis 08-22-07, 10:23 AM	Agreed. Especially on Alustriel. When I saw that she was going to take part in the battle, I started drooling. But her role was downplayed to the point that I was major disappointed. I didn't even need a big scene, I just needed something more than nameless wizards X to keep her in check. If he had of said something about Gromph sending up a bunch of powerful items along with the cream of the wizard crop (his rivals too) and then showed them being devious I would have been thrilled. Instead it was a "She throws some fireballs, they throw some fireballs, she goes BOOM" And she flew around in a ****ing chariot that apparently had no spell defenses. That was ****ing stupid and Alustriel IS NOT stupid. Phew, I'm gonna stop talking about that. :)
Ianten_Silverblade 08-22-07, 11:34 AM	I'm guessing old Obould would having the following Levels and Template: King Obould Manyarrows: Male Mountain Orc (Chosen of Gruumsh) Barbarian 5/Fighter 5/Orc Warlord 5 of Gruumsh
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-22-07, 11:41 AM	I didn't even need a big scene, I just needed something more than nameless wizards X to keep her in check. If he had of said something about Gromph sending up a bunch of powerful items along with the cream of the wizard crop (his rivals too) and then showed them being devious I would have been thrilled. Instead it was a "She throws some fireballs, they throw some fireballs, she goes BOOM" And she flew around in a ****ing chariot that apparently had no spell defenses. That was ****ing stupid and Alustriel IS NOT stupid. Phew, I'm gonna stop talking about that. :) Hehehe. Yeah, I was hoping for some "Simbul taking out an army of Thay using Guerilla tactics single handedly" type action from Alustriel. I know she is not as powerful as Simbul, but still:)
Lord Karsus 08-22-07, 12:20 PM	I'm guessing old Obould would having the following Levels and Template: King Obould Manyarrows: Male Mountain Orc (Chosen of Gruumsh) Barbarian 5/Fighter 5/Orc Warlord 5 of Gruumsh -We don't know for certain if Obould is, or ever was the Chosen of Gruumsh, or if he continues to be so currently, if he ever was to begin with.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-22-07, 01:38 PM	Does anyone have anything they would like/expect to see in the coming trilogy? Are people in general for or against a Kingdom of Dark-arrows? Personally I'm all for an emerging orcish nation and would like to see how other rulers of the marches react to such an occurence, politically and culturally.
ShadezofDis 08-22-07, 01:45 PM	Does anyone have anything they would like/expect to see in the coming trilogy? Are people in general for or against a Kingdom of Dark-arrows? Personally I'm all for an emerging orcish nation and would like to see how other rulers of the marches react to such an occurence, politically and culturally. I'm totally for a monsterous kingdom, long overdue IMO. However, I'm not sure I will like the Kingdom of Dark-arrows, I'm just not a big fan of Obould. He's a lucky cats paw who somehow got buffed into a powerhouse and then went all stupid, despite the fact he had "unusual clarity for an orc" or some such nonsense. Of course, if I only read the source book information about it then it will likely be a lot better than reading the events in the novel. I may still read the novel, but I'll divorce the events of the novel from the FR world if Salvatore does a lot of "dramatic" things in the novel. :)
MarkusTay63 08-22-07, 02:09 PM	We already have a monster kingdom - it's called Veldorn and TSR/WotC has NEVER bothered to do anything with it. -We don't know for certain if Obould is, or ever was the Chosen of Gruumsh, or if he continues to be so currently, if he ever was to begin with.Actually, he is the Chosen of Shmuurg, Gruumsh's hitherto unknown intelligent, non-aggressive little brother. ;)
ShadezofDis 08-22-07, 02:51 PM	We already have a monster kingdom - it's called Veldorn and TSR/WotC has NEVER bothered to do anything with it. Oh yeah? Hmmm. . . not recalling it off the top of my head, do you remember where it's lore is located (the little that there apparently is)?
creyzi4zb12 08-22-07, 08:21 PM	Agreed. Especially on Alustriel. When I saw that she was going to take part in the battle, I started drooling. But her role was downplayed to the point that I was major disappointed. Nah, it could happen. Suppose all the drows in the area got triple 20's with critical on it. And Alustriel got triple one's. It's sometimes hard...but yeah...s**t happens.
MarkusTay63 08-22-07, 10:31 PM	Oh yeah? Hmmm. . . not recalling it off the top of my head, do you remember where it's lore is located (the little that there apparently is)?See HERE. (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Veldorn-Region-63027680) Its mentioned in both the 2e and 3e Shining South supplements, and is located between Mulhorand and the Shining Lands. There is also the Serpent Kingdom of Najara, located to the east of the High Moor, although most humans don't realize it's there, and also the Sahuagin Kingdom of Aleaxtis located in the Alamber Sea. There are other Sea Kingdoms located at the bottom of the Inner Sea as well, but they really don't interact with the surface at all.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-23-07, 01:05 PM	Does anyone have anything they would like/expect to see in the coming trilogy? Are people in general for or against a Kingdom of Dark-arrows? Not against. It's an interesting idea. Of course, as with all things, it has to be done right (and that means different things to different people).
MarkusTay63 08-23-07, 01:40 PM	When I ran GH, I turned the Pomarj into an Orc Kingdom. When they (TSR) released From the Ashes, THEY turned the Pomarj into an Orc Kingdom. (I swear they have someone living in my closet) :P Mystara had an Orcish Kingdom as well, called the Orcs of Thar. Yes, they had a Thar too... you'd be suprised how much Ed borrowed for his home Campaign. ;) Then again, he contributed to THAT world too - when he created the Hin. Anyhow, the point is, on ANY realistic world, where there is a powerful, 'intelligent' race, sooner or later that race is going to want to establish itself amongst the others. You might think Orcs incapable, but think about it - all the big, stupid agressive ones have been killed off FIRST for thousands of years. Only the VERY smart ones were clever enough to survive until now. Basicaly, the Elves, Dwarves, and Humans can be thanked for genetically engineering the Orcs to be a smerter race. Darwin works in fantasy worlds too. ;)
GothicDan 08-23-07, 07:13 PM	Actually, we know that Darwin doesn't work in fantasy worlds - at least not FR (see Elven genetics). For a better idea of how Evolution works, Darwin's Origin of the Species is a vital read. Basically, species need coincidental mutations that allow them to live longer in their environment and breed, to evolve. All of those orcs that have been killed wouldn't lead to more intelligent orcs, UNLESS some orcs basically were born with mutations that made them different (that is - no negative to Int - NOT just orcs born with a higher intelligence, but whose literal genetic code did not include the Int negative), and were allowed to grow to adulthood, breed, spread that mutation, and so on. I don't think such individuals would have existed and bred in any significant number.
MarkHall 08-23-07, 07:29 PM	Anyhow, the point is, on ANY realistic world, where there is a powerful, 'inteligent' race, sooner or later that race is going to want to establish itself amongst the others. You might think Orcs incapable, but think about it - all the big, stupid agressive ones have been killed off FIRST for thousands of years. Only the VERY smart ones were clever enough to survive until now. I've had my finger on the hobgoblins to do it, actually. Their main problem is tribalism... if you get a strong enough leader, with the right kinds of clan connections, the hobgoblins LE alignment could play into their favor as nation-builders. UNLESS some orcs basically were born with mutations that made them different (that is - no negative to Int - NOT just orcs born with a higher intelligence, but whose literal genetic code did not include the Int negative) Eventually. If you have smarter orcs breeding with smarter orcs, the average intelligence is raised. Eventually, you get orcs without a penalty.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-23-07, 08:18 PM	It's would be very difficult for an intelligent orc mutation to be successful in orcish culture. For the Gene to be carried on it needs to be useful/needed in the current culture and enviroment. The orcs society is based on strength and resilience and this is the means by which they survive. Intelligence is not required or even respected in orcish culture, such a thing would be weened out. However if an orc emerged that had the typical traits of stength etc. and intelligence only then could the gene be successfully carried on. Strength attracts mates and allows the orc to succed in his culture - this must be present before intelligence can be intergrated. Essentially you would need a family of exceptionally strong and intelligent orcs for any significant changes to occur genetically. Otherwise a massive change in cultural values is needed where intelligence becomes an important commodity.
GothicDan 08-23-07, 09:33 PM	Eventually. If you have smarter orcs breeding with smarter orcs, the average intelligence is raised. Eventually, you get orcs without a penalty. That's only if the Orcs who are smarter are BORN innately smarter - without the penalty. Someone who becomes smart throughout life does not have their genetic code changed to reflect this; their brains do. But we don't pass on our brains to our offspring, we pass off the genetic blueprints we are born with.
MarkHall 08-23-07, 09:48 PM	That's only if the Orcs who are smarter are BORN innately smarter - without the penalty. Someone who becomes smart throughout life does not have their genetic code changed to reflect this; their brains do. But we don't pass on our brains to our offspring, we pass off the genetic blueprints we are born with. Yes, but someone who has a high intelligence score (not via level-stat increases, but rolled or assigned intelligence), has it as part of their makeup. If the intelligent orcs are successful and breed, then the next generation will be smarter on average. Then another generation, etc., until finally the average intelligence is an average intelligence.
GothicDan 08-23-07, 09:53 PM	It's reasons like this why I wish they kept the Racial Ability Min/Max's from 2E. I would say that such orcish breeding habits would produce Orcs, ultimately, with a slightly higher Minimum Intelligence, but the negative to Intelligence would remain until such 'mutant orcs' were bred and their genes spread. There's still natural limitations intrinsic to all living beings as far as mentality is concerned (as far as we've observed), and this is reflected in the (static) statistic modifiers of races. No matter how many times we breed together more and more intelligent dogs, unless there's heavy genetic modifications (and/or mutations), they're not going to be as intelligent as humans.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-23-07, 10:09 PM	Furthermore any gradual intelligence evoloution from breeding is not going to be restricted to Orcs, all the races will gradually evolve in a similar fashion. Intelligence 10 represents the average not a specific level of intellect. So even if orcs are evolving intellectually they are still going to be below average compared to other races. This is what the racial modifiers represent - how far they deviate from the norm.
MarkusTay63 08-24-07, 12:09 AM	Excellent Point.
ShadezofDis 08-24-07, 01:06 AM	It's reasons like this why I wish they kept the Racial Ability Min/Max's from 2E. While those did drive me nuts at times, I do completely agree. It's one of the major reasons orcs have never been powerful arcane casters, they could never case over level X (I forget what their max was from 2E) spells. Which, consequently, what why they needed hordes to get things done (in as much as orcs ever got anything done). :)
MarkHall 08-25-07, 12:04 AM	There's still natural limitations intrinsic to all living beings as far as mentality is concerned (as far as we've observed), and this is reflected in the (static) statistic modifiers of races. No matter how many times we breed together more and more intelligent dogs, unless there's heavy genetic modifications (and/or mutations), they're not going to be as intelligent as humans. No, but dogs have an entirely different kind of intelligence than humans. Orcish intelligence, though inferior to humans, is still of the same variety. What we can do is favor breeding intelligent dogs to result in more intelligent offspring, until we have very intelligent dogs.
GothicDan 08-25-07, 12:16 AM	I'm not sure how we can try to talk about the "different" intelligences of Orcs vs. Dogs vs. Humans when in D&D, Orcs are effectively as intelligent as retards or some autistic kids (not using the slang term here), and there are a number of animals who have certain intelligence quotas greater than this. And in D&D, it's all the same Intelligence stat, too. I think that the stat modifiers represent more the MODE than the MEAN of a creature - the most common ones, not the 'average' statistics.
Mula 08-25-07, 12:36 AM	I think dog 'intelligence' is represented by their nice Wis score, 12. Orcs, on the other hand, are stupid all around.
MarkHall 08-25-07, 12:59 AM	I'm not sure how we can try to talk about the "different" intelligences of Orcs vs. Dogs vs. Humans when in D&D, Orcs are effectively as intelligent as retards or some autistic kids (not using the slang term here), and there are a number of animals who have certain intelligence quotas greater than this. And in D&D, it's all the same Intelligence stat, too. I'm more thinking in terms of capabilities. Dogs, to the best of our knowledge, can't grasp abstract concepts like numbers (beyond "one", "a few", and "a lot") and mathematics, or written language. Orcs are capable of it, though less capable than humans. And in D&D, dog's can't have higher than a 2 Intelligence without magical intervention. ;)
GothicDan 08-25-07, 07:14 PM	Or can they? Their MM entry says so, but then again, that's just your most common form of each entry, isn't it? ;)
MarkHall 08-25-07, 07:21 PM	Dogs are animals. Animals cannot have higher than a 2 Intelligence and still be animals. QED.
GothicDan 08-25-07, 07:27 PM	I deny your rules!
MarkHall 08-25-07, 08:53 PM	My curiousity has always been about whales and other cetaceans, as well as the great apes, under these rules. Technically, as animals, they're limited to a 2 Intelligence. However, it's been shown that they're a fair bit smarter than that. Of course, I taught my raven familiar magic under 2nd edition rules. Ravens had Low intelligence. Familiars were 2 points more intelligent than the smartest member of their species. Ergo, my raven familiar had a 9 intelligence, and could learn magic....
GothicDan 08-25-07, 08:53 PM	So he was more intelligent than most Orcs. ;)
MarkusTay63 08-25-07, 09:18 PM	Orcs are 'awakened' gorillas, didn't you see Planet of the Apes? And at some point in the past, they mated with pigs.... :rolleyes: Several species in FR canon are described as being more intelligent then Earth versions, so I suppose technically one could surmise that ALL animals in FR have the potential to rise above their lot in life.
GothicDan 08-25-07, 09:20 PM	But they'd probably classify as Magical Creature, or something. Not Animal. I think. Me and the rules don't get along so well, because I tend to think they talk too much, so I tell them to shut up.
Lord Karsus 08-25-07, 11:21 PM	-Be careful, Dan. Trash talk the rules too much, and it might call it's two older brothers... I got your back, though.
GothicDan 08-25-07, 11:29 PM	Thank you, my good man.
Lord Karsus 08-25-07, 11:34 PM	-Anytime.
MarkusTay63 08-25-07, 11:36 PM	And don't forget mom's a ho - she's pumpin' out an illegitimate little baby edition real soon. :P Thats the trouble when you take on the rules, you can never just go one-on-one with them - they got too much family. :incog:
Lord Karsus 08-26-07, 12:05 AM	And don't forget mom's a ho - she's pumpin' out an illegitimate little baby edition real soon. :P -She definitley is. Her third kid already has a half-brother- the two look so much alike.