Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lode 02-18-08, 06:12 PM	Like the title says, but assume that the important islands are already militarily subjugated and need a political/economic model that replaces extralegal entrepreneurial activities (piracy and smuggling). Anyone want to take a stab at it?
MarkusTay63 02-19-08, 01:40 AM	When the Shades make their power-play for Sembia, many of the merchants and most of the Navy manages to escape... and take over the Pirate Isles! :eek: Now, just find an old copy of the Minrothad Guilds from the Mystara Campaign setting, and your set. ;)
Lode 02-19-08, 02:36 AM	Actually, the Pirate Isles were already conquered by my party and their mercenary army. Should have cleared that point up. But that is interesting, does Shade at any point try to take over Sembia in the canon?
Old Sage 02-19-08, 07:21 AM	See Paul Kemp's "Twilight War" trilogy.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 09:23 AM	But that is interesting, does Shade at any point try to take over Sembia in the canon? -Not in a militaristic sense, like I got the sense MT was implying. But, they do set up a puppet government in Sembia.
Lode 02-19-08, 11:13 AM	Interesting, because my group has their own puppet in the Sembian regime. But I'll worry about that as soon as I can turn a loose confederation of pirate islands into a viable political force on the Inner Sea.
Passivearmada 02-19-08, 03:52 PM	NOOOOOOOOO!!!
Fabius Maximus 02-19-08, 04:40 PM	Interesting, because my group has their own puppet in the Sembian regime. But I'll worry about that as soon as I can turn a loose confederation of pirate islands into a viable political force on the Inner Sea. You'll need money for that. Lots. If you want to refrain from piracy and smuggling (I still would use the latter), then try undercutting other merchant consortiums that ship wares across the inner sea. Offer letters of marque for bringing up ships of these merchants. (That's not piracy if you construct a viable, official legitimation for it.) If your reputation is set, you can use extortion. You'll eventually control almost all sea lanes. Just be prepared that the Red Wizards and the Zhentarim (amongst others) won't be happy with the situation. Oh, and don't bother with controlling the underwater realms. That's not worth the effort.
Lode 02-19-08, 05:24 PM	NOOOOOOOOO!!! Er... yes? You'll need money for that. Lots. If you want to refrain from piracy and smuggling (I still would use the latter), then try undercutting other merchant consortiums that ship wares across the inner sea. Offer letters of marque for bringing up ships of these merchants. (That's not piracy if you construct a viable, official legitimation for it.) If your reputation is set, you can use extortion. You'll eventually control almost all sea lanes. Just be prepared that the Red Wizards and the Zhentarim (amongst others) won't be happy with the situation. Oh, and don't bother with controlling the underwater realms. That's not worth the effort. Money shouldn't be a problem, but you may be right about the smuggling bit. Something we can use on the side, I suppose. Outright aggression against the Zhents and Red Wizards is out of the question at the moment. But eventually... One idea I've been bouncing around is the founding of a bank on Dragonisle. Something that nations can use to conduct trade more conveniently, without having to lug around massive chests of gold. Another would be to use captured ships and the skilled personnel on the Isles to offer cut-rate shipping prices to all nations on the Inner Sea. I'm unconcerned with anything below the sea. We cut a deal with the locathah living in the area around the Pirate Isles and with an adult bronze dragon that will live in the Bay of Wyrms as soon as we can clear out the dragon turtles living there.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-19-08, 08:03 PM	I'm unconcerned with anything below the sea. We cut a deal with the locathah living in the area around the Pirate Isles and with an adult bronze dragon that will live in the Bay of Wyrms as soon as we can clear out the dragon turtles living there. Careful, those dragon turtles can be dangerous.;) What's the point of clearing them out, though?
Ioulaum 02-19-08, 08:06 PM	Er... yes? Money shouldn't be a problem, but you may be right about the smuggling bit. Something we can use on the side, I suppose. Outright aggression against the Zhents and Red Wizards is out of the question at the moment. But eventually... One idea I've been bouncing around is the founding of a bank on Dragonisle. Something that nations can use to conduct trade more conveniently, without having to lug around massive chests of gold. Another would be to use captured ships and the skilled personnel on the Isles to offer cut-rate shipping prices to all nations on the Inner Sea. I'm unconcerned with anything below the sea. We cut a deal with the locathah living in the area around the Pirate Isles and with an adult bronze dragon that will live in the Bay of Wyrms as soon as we can clear out the dragon turtles living there. Why not just make a deal with the Dragon Turtles?
Lode 02-19-08, 09:41 PM	Why not just make a deal with the Dragon Turtles? The DM determined there would be between a dozen and 20 dragon turtles living in the Wyrm Bay area, which is just too many to negotiate with on an individual basis. Much better to have a single, powerful, good aligned dragon watching your back. We also needed their hoards to pay off the mercenaries. Careful, those dragon turtles can be dangerous. You're telling me. We lost a ship carrying half our siege equipment to one of those things.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 11:53 PM	a ship carrying half our siege equipment to one of those things. -Don't forget that the have treasure. My party once encountered a Dragon Turtle, and killed it, and about twenty minutes of real-time (a few days of game time), someone meekly said, "Uh, guys...Dragon Turtles are Dragons, right? They have treasure hordes..."
Lode 02-20-08, 02:02 AM	Don't forget that the have treasure. My party once encountered a Dragon Turtle, and killed it, and about twenty minutes of real-time (a few days of game time), someone meekly said, "Uh, guys...Dragon Turtles are Dragons, right? They have treasure hordes..." Oh, I didn't forget. We used the dragon hoards to pay off the mercenaries we hired to occupy Dragonisle and other important islands. It was also good for theatrics. There's nothing quite like seeing four or five guys going into the surf and then emerging ten minutes later dragging a dragon turtle corpse behind them along with whatever riches it happened to have. Keeps complaints about pay down to a minimum.
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 09:46 AM	There's nothing quite like seeing four or five guys going into the surf and then emerging ten minutes later dragging a dragon turtle corpse behind them along with whatever riches it happened to have. Keeps complaints about pay down to a minimum. -Forget the treasure. Popping up with the corpse of a Dragon Turtle should shut most people up.
Passivearmada 02-20-08, 03:28 PM	Er... yes? No, that's the first thing I said when I saw the title of this thread.
MarkusTay63 02-20-08, 04:27 PM	-Forget the treasure. Popping up with the corpse of a Dragon Turtle should shut most people up.Or better yet - sell the bodies to Lantanese Gnomes, so they can build submarines out of them... Oh... wait... that was in Warcraft... :rolleyes: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Turtle_Sub.png
Lode 02-20-08, 05:46 PM	No, that's the first thing I said when I saw the title of this thread. Well in that case: "Oh yes. The corsair cities will be brought to heel." Or better yet - sell the bodies to Lantanese Gnomes, so they can build submarines out of them... That's... not a bad idea. I mean, there has to be something you can do with dragon turtle parts.
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 07:00 PM	Or better yet - sell the bodies to Lantanese Gnomes, so they can build submarines out of them... -That...is...an...AWESOME IDEA! -I'm utilizing that somewhere in my setting...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-20-08, 08:33 PM	That's... not a bad idea. I mean, there has to be something you can do with dragon turtle parts. Soup!
Lode 02-20-08, 09:07 PM	Soup! I was thinking something more along the lines of magic components and the like. That being said, dragon turtle soup as a first course in a feast for the assembled leaders of Inner Sea nations would leave quite an impression.
MarkusTay63 02-21-08, 12:34 AM	And how cool would it be to find some giant turtle eggs in one of those lairs? :devil:
Lode 02-21-08, 02:31 PM	And how cool would it be to find some giant turtle eggs in one of those lairs? The beginning of an unstoppable naval force of trained dragon turtles? Or the best omelet ever? Now a question to you all: would a free trade zone centered on Dragonisle be viable? A place where anyone can unload nearly any cargo and sell it to anyone they please (for a small fee). For example, a merchant from Cormyr could buy and sell Zhent goods even though Cormyrian vessels are banned from Zhentil Keep and vice versa. Can anyone spot any problems with this plan?
Ioulaum 02-21-08, 03:24 PM	The beginning of an unstoppable naval force of trained dragon turtles? Or the best omelet ever? Now a question to you all: would a free trade zone centered on Dragonisle be viable? A place where anyone can unload nearly any cargo and sell it to anyone they please (for a small fee). For example, a merchant from Cormyr could buy and sell Zhent goods even though Cormyrian vessels are banned from Zhentil Keep and vice versa. Can anyone spot any problems with this plan? It depends if they have strong enough force enforce thier free trade zone? As the saying goes. Might Makes Right.
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 04:05 PM	As the saying goes. Might Makes Right. -Indeed, especially on the high seas, and in lawless places.
Lode 02-21-08, 04:06 PM	It depends if they have strong enough force enforce thier free trade zone? I don't see why not. Except for a couple of occasions, a bunch of disorganized pirates managed to fend off most nations of the Inner Sea for hundreds of years. Besides, military force shouldn't come into play all that often. Where else is there a free trade zone conveniently located near the center of the Sea of Fallen Stars? Edit: Correction, the pirates weren't actually all that disorganized. They had a fortress with Thayan bombards as well as a harbor chain on Dragonisle, but all the same I can't see a professional military force doing worse at defending the islands than pirates.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-21-08, 06:23 PM	The beginning of an unstoppable naval force of trained dragon turtles? Or the best omelet ever? The second option. Now a question to you all: would a free trade zone centered on Dragonisle be viable? As long as you can keep and maintain it (which comes back to might makes right).
Ioulaum 02-21-08, 08:40 PM	The second option. Ham and onion or monster cheese? which goes better with dragon turtle omelet @lode, you also need some good diplomats to help avoid these unnecessary battles.
Lode 02-21-08, 09:25 PM	As long as you can keep and maintain it (which comes back to might makes right). I think it would be in every country's interest to keep the current masters of the Pirate Isles (ie my group and I) right where they are. While we're here, pirates won't be coming back to turn the islands into a safe haven for them and we're offering a completely neutral center of trade where they'll be able to buy goods they would normally find impossible to attain. Add that to the fact that the Pirate Isles are easily defended and most if not all countries would much prefer a healthy trading relationship over a more jingoistic stance. @lode, you also need some good diplomats to help avoid these unnecessary battles. With dragon turtles? Like I said, they are too many of them and they're sitting on a lot of cash that we need. If you're talking about countries, then of course we'll have diplomats. In a rather anachronistic move, we'll be requesting permission to open embassies in each of the nations that do business with us.
Ioulaum 02-21-08, 10:05 PM	I think it would be in every country's interest to keep the current masters of the Pirate Isles (ie my group and I) right where they are. While we're here, pirates won't be coming back to turn the islands into a safe haven for them and we're offering a completely neutral center of trade where they'll be able to buy goods they would normally find impossible to attain. Add that to the fact that the Pirate Isles are easily defended and most if not all countries would much prefer a healthy trading relationship over a more jingoistic stance. With dragon turtles? Like I said, they are too many of them and they're sitting on a lot of cash that we need. If you're talking about countries, then of course we'll have diplomats. In a rather anachronistic move, we'll be requesting permission to open embassies in each of the nations that do business with us. Not turtles but other powers in the area.
MarkusTay63 02-21-08, 11:40 PM	I don't see why not. Except for a couple of occasions, a bunch of disorganized pirates managed to fend off most nations of the Inner Sea for hundreds of years. Besides, military force shouldn't come into play all that often. Where else is there a free trade zone conveniently located near the center of the Sea of Fallen Stars? Edit: Correction, the pirates weren't actually all that disorganized. They had a fortress with Thayan bombards as well as a harbor chain on Dragonisle, but all the same I can't see a professional military force doing worse at defending the islands than pirates.Good Point - they still need Thay to supply them with the alchemical solution that powers their 1st generation Bombards (Thay has replaced them twice over with newer models over the years), so I'm sure part of that deal will be to have a Thayan Enclave within the Free Trade Zone. In fact, getting the Thayans as backers might help the whole thing go more smoothly - just don't let the rest of Faerûn know where the money's coming from. ;) Also, allowing certain countries to set up 'Trade Embassies' might go a long way, and powers like Amn, Sembia, and even the Zhents would surely be interested in doing business.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-22-08, 05:08 PM	Ham and onion or monster cheese? which goes better with dragon turtle omelet Ham 'n onion.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-22-08, 05:10 PM	I think it would be in every country's interest to keep the current masters of the Pirate Isles (ie my group and I) right where they are. Right, but I meant keep and maintain it from groups that would likely be hostile, like...well, pirates. And the odd secret, evil cabal. And, people who dislike the wanton killing of dragon turtles.;)
Lode 02-22-08, 07:27 PM	Right, but I meant keep and maintain it from groups that would likely be hostile, like...well, pirates. And the odd secret, evil cabal. And, people who dislike the wanton killing of dragon turtles. Over the course of taking the islands we wiped out more than half the pirates in the region and pressed most of the rest into our service. Amazing what you can accomplish with an orb of storms. Some got away, probably to Westgate or somewhere in the Vilhon Reach, but I don't see them coming back any time soon. As for secretive cabals, who doesn't have them hiding somewhere in their cities or under their bed? It comes with the territory. And there was nothing wanton about killing the dragon turtles. We posted a memo on the beach notifying all concerned parties that the Pirate Isles were coming under new ownership and that the area under the Bay of Wyrms would be surveyed and then rezoned. All they had to do was file a report with the Office of Real Property and Services and it would have been taken into account with the scheduled survey. So it's not like we deliberately hunted them down in order to confiscate their property and their sweet, juicy dragon turtle flesh. Heh.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-22-08, 08:01 PM	And there was nothing wanton about killing the dragon turtles. We posted a memo on the beach notifying all concerned parties that the Pirate Isles were coming under new ownership and that the area under the Bay of Wyrms would be surveyed and then rezoned. All they had to do was file a report with the Office of Real Property and Services and it would have been taken into account with the scheduled survey. So it's not like we deliberately hunted them down in order to confiscate their property and their sweet, juicy dragon turtle flesh. Heh. Heh.:) I mean groups such as druids who most likely would feel that killing so many dragon turtles might upset the ecology of the area (they might consider it "wanton" even if the PCs don't). That can of course include druids who live under the sea as well as above it. Really, any number of threats can come out of the woodwork. The point is that your group should be able to deal with them (through diplomacy or more forceful means). Anyway, from what you've said here, it seems like the group has already fit into that role quite comfortably.:)
Lode 02-22-08, 08:43 PM	I mean groups such as druids who most likely would feel that killing so many dragon turtles might upset the ecology of the area (they might consider it "wanton" even if the PCs don't). That can of course include druids who live under the sea as well as above it. Wait, do druids care about sentient creatures? I mean you don't hear them raising a stink when adventurers wipe out a tribe of orcs or goblins.
Meldread 02-23-08, 08:43 AM	Heh, well you might find out soon enough. The Emerald Enclave, one of the most powerful Druidic Organizations in Faerun, is based directly southeast of you on the Isle of Ilighon. They love to put their noses where it doesn't belong. Their Island is detailed in the Vilhon Reach, on page 26, and the organization is highly detailed on page 27. I believe you can download the Vilhon Reach here off the WotC website.
MarkusTay63 02-23-08, 12:36 PM	Wait, do druids care about sentient creatures? I mean you don't hear them raising a stink when adventurers wipe out a tribe of orcs or goblins.Druids most certainly do care about sentients, and even monsters, if they are part of the normal ecology of the area. I rememer from some book (the Cadderly ones?) that a druid had a moral dilema, because he had to kill Su-Monsters, but then he reasoned that they were unnatural creatures, so it was okay. Also, it depends on the Druid - Perytons and Owlbears were both originally unnatural, but both have been part of the world for centuries and have found themselvers a niche, so most Druids would be against killing them. I think you might have more problems from the Undersea Druids of Seros, then the ones from Ilighôn... or worse, BOTH. :devil:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-23-08, 07:40 PM	Wait, do druids care about sentient creatures? Yes, they do.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-23-08, 07:42 PM	Also, it depends on the Druid - Perytons and Owlbears were both originally unnatural, but both have been part of the world for centuries and have found themselvers a niche, so most Druids would be against killing them. Or more specifically, they'd be against killing too many of them.
Lode 02-23-08, 07:44 PM	Heh, well you might find out soon enough. The Emerald Enclave, one of the most powerful Druidic Organizations in Faerun, is based directly southeast of you on the Isle of Ilighon. Druids most certainly do care about sentients, and even monsters, if they are part of the normal ecology of the area. Aw, nerts. Our ranger and chaotic good cleric will be absolutely thrilled, I'm sure. But then, I could make the argument that the dragon turtles were an artificial phenomenon, given how the pirates made a practice out of giving them treasure and meat on a regular basis. Perhaps the turtles wouldn't have been there otherwise and our actions simply 'thinned the herd.' You know, so they wouldn't die. How open to debate are druids, in general?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-23-08, 07:49 PM	How open to debate are druids, in general? That depends on who they are, really. Although, the Emerald Enclave in particular is well-known for being on the "radical" side (and "radical" tends to mean "not inclined to discussion or debate").
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 07:50 PM	-You could inject the idea that Dragon Turtles aren't native to the region, and hurt the local ecology. I don't believe that's necessarily true, but...For all intents and purposes, it fixes the problem.
Lode 02-23-08, 08:00 PM	That depends on who they are, really. Although, the Emerald Enclave in particular is well-known for being on the "radical" side (and "radical" tends to mean "not inclined to discussion or debate"). -You could inject the idea that Dragon Turtles aren't native to the region, and hurt the local ecology. I don't believe that's necessarily true, but...For all intents and purposes, it fixes the problem. And they have a couple epic level druids hanging around. I doubt we'll be able to pull anything over on them. It's looking like the best thing to do would be to maneuver ourselves into a strong position and make amends from there. So on a completely unrelated note, who wants to throw out ideas for military structure?
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 08:11 PM	And they have a couple epic level druids hanging around. I doubt we'll be able to pull anything over on them. It's looking like the best thing to do would be to maneuver ourselves into a strong position and make amends from there. -What does your DM know? I don't think anything specifically says that they are native, so when someone starts doing the talking, sound awefully sure of yourself, and perhaps the DM will believe them.
MarkusTay63 02-24-08, 01:46 AM	The Dragon Turtles may have proven a threat to the creatures of Seros - if that is the case, then you may want to approach an undersea Druid about 'culling the herd', which they might be receptive to, especially if the local ecology was put out of balance by their presence (and I don't see how it wouldn't, considering their numbers). Then, if the Emerald Enclave (FR's Greenpeace) comes calling, you can just direct them to the local sea Druids and let them argue it out. ;)
Lode 02-24-08, 04:05 AM	-What does your DM know? I don't think anything specifically says that they are native, so when someone starts doing the talking, sound awefully sure of yourself, and perhaps the DM will believe them. Our DM is pretty good about finding out most if not all relevant information regarding whatever setting we happen to be in. I'd give it three to one odds that the Emerald Enclave or something like it will eventually show up to give us trouble. The Dragon Turtles may have proven a threat to the creatures of Seros - if that is the case, then you may want to approach an undersea Druid about 'culling the herd', which they might be receptive to, especially if the local ecology was put out of balance by their presence (and I don't see how it wouldn't, considering their numbers). Then, if the Emerald Enclave (FR's Greenpeace) comes calling, you can just direct them to the local sea Druids and let them argue it out. You mean turn these brethren against each other through deception and obfuscation, thus leading to tension that could weaken druidic power throughout the entire region? I think I could live with myself if I did that.
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 12:34 PM	Our DM is pretty good about finding out most if not all relevant information regarding whatever setting we happen to be in. I'd give it three to one odds that the Emerald Enclave or something like it will eventually show up to give us trouble. -You're in luck, then, because like I said, nothing specifically states that they are native to the area, as far as I know. Be sure of yourself, speak confidently, like you know something he doesn't, and you might be in luck when/if they show up.
Meldread 02-24-08, 06:41 PM	* "Preserve nature in all of its forms." While this value may imply that the Enclave is against logging interests in the Reach, that conclusion is not necessarily true. The Enclave demands that anyone who cuts down trees to make a living does so in a responsible manner. Planting new trees is not the only step necessary to avoid their wrath. The "business" of logging must also take into consideration the best place to cut down trees. This philosophy has caused some problems in Chondath and Turmish. The Enclave demands that tree cutters harvest from where it would do the forest the most good, not necessarily where harvesting is most convenient. This demand makes the jobs of lumberjacks more expensive and cumbersome, which is bad for business albeit good for the environment. * "Human expansion must be controlled." Nature is not a never-ending supply of raw materials for the ever-increasing number of creatures that reside within it. Roads don't need to connect every city, and not every farm needs to plant more food so a nearby city's population can expand. * "Everything in nature has its place." The ecological balance of the mountains and plains is just as important as that of the forest. The expansionist attitudes of people inhabiting these areas must be resisted with every bit as much effort as those who would tear down forests for personal gain. * "Magic must not be used for mass destruction." This value was primarily adopted as a result of the Rotting Wars, where entire armies fell victim to a debilitating and deadly plague. This value has further developed into a justification for keeping close tabs on wizards, especially those of the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards of Thay. * The Enclave firmly believes that any attempt to perform magic on a "grand scale" is just an accident waiting to happen. They point out that the Reach got lucky with the disease created at the conclusion of the Rotting Wars - it could have lasted for generations instead of just a few years. * "The Chosen of Silvanus must always work from a united front." Even if a particular member of the Enclave disagrees with a decision made by the leaders of the organization, such disagreement is never to be aired outside of the House of Silvanus. To do so is to both weaken the order and show disrespect to the Elders. Based on your desired goals, I believe that they clash with the Emerald Enclave. As you can see from that tiny snippet, they aren't the types to sit back and not take any action. In fact... The Chosen of Silvanus are sworn to protect nature in all of its forms. Each member understands that his life is forfeit at any time in order to preserve the balance. Basically, they are the Al Qaeda of Druids. :P As a DM I would have them oppose any dealings you might have with the Red Wizards in particular, and most if not all dealings with the Zhents as well. They may even demand that you leave the Pirate Isles immediately and they'd in turn "reclaim them for nature." At the very least, if your DM knows about them, they are watching you carefully. They are probably deciding on the best course of action in dealing with you. I doubt your first involvement with them will be violent, unless you start doing something really bad to nature - like trying to modify the weather, or creating a massive fishing operation in the region. Since you have a Druid in your group, they'd likely approach him/her first. I would also foresee them demanding that the Druid appear (alone) before the Elder's Circle. I hope he/she has a high score in Diplomacy. If things go badly, and they don't like the answers that they get, I could foresee them kidnapping your druid and holding him/her hostage. They'd then send you a list of demands, likely to abandon the Pirate Isles immediately. They would brand your druid a traitor as well. On the bright side, if that happens, it gives you the ability to go in and wipe them out - solving your problem in the most efficient manor possible. Diplomatically speaking I would not strike first. Instead, I would listen to any demands that they make, smile, nod my head, act as if I want to work with them, then think of ways to deal with them non-violently. At the same time, I would be preparing for a violent confrontation under the guise that I am keeping the region free of Pirates. I would think of a way to use the groups druid to your advantage in the negotiations, but your goals (if they remain unaltered) will eventually lead you into conflict with the group. As such, I would begin trying to think of ways to have them strike first. If they are the aggressors then you can make any action you take against them (such as invading their island and wiping them out) look justified. Additionally, I'd try and think of ways to turn your ally druid and ranger against the Enclave. You'll want to avoid inter-party conflict. I'd also look to various groups in Turmish and Chondath who also wish the Enclave out of the picture. Deals can be made behind closed doors that could ultimately give you more benefits in the long run. Of course, you'll be dealing with three Chosen when you deal with the Enclave. Each of them are pretty powerful. Seek ways to expand your control into the ranks of both the allies and the enemies of the Enclave. You'll need to find ways to create a steady stream of income for your military. This will almost definitely come from exploiting the land (or dealing with others that do) in some way that the Enclave finds objectionable.
Meldread 02-24-08, 08:14 PM	Oh, yes... I should point out that the Emerald Enclave have portals that have allowed them to expand into many different regions of Faerun. You can learn all about that at this link: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20011128x If you take them out, you get access to those portals. Of course, it might be more efficient to craft your own (assuming you have the resources and ability). Creating a portal network should be central to any military objectives that you have. Building an effective military is troublesome enough without also having to worry about getting them to their proper locations. It also lets you exploit the resources of more distant areas. All that being said... the above link could give you some ideas on how to assist the Emerald Enclave in an attempt to get them off your back, therefore avoiding physical confrontation. At the very least, if you solved most if not all of those problems for them, they would be in your debt.
Lode 02-25-08, 12:58 AM	All good points Meldread. However, I don't think military action is an option at this point; we're tied up occupying the Isles and I doubt the mooks we hired will be at all effective against three Chosen if my party is reluctant to come to blows with them. But on the same note, we'll not quit the Pirate Isles. We have plans for the area. When I think about it, we may not be in as much trouble with the Enclave as I previously thought. The main grievance they would have against us would be wiping out the top predators in the Pirate Isles environment. But 1) the pirates made a habit of feeding the dragon turtles on a regular basis, thus inflating their population artificially (and the locathah may have done this too, not sure) and 2) we're putting another top predator in place, so the impact may not be as large as I thought. We may send our bard to Ilghon in a preemptive opening of relations. A frost giant jarl once described her words as 'fire giants besieging the Asgard of my mind.'
Meldread 02-25-08, 09:40 AM	Yes, that might be a good way to kick things off with them. Still if I were the DM these guys would be harrying you endlessly. :P They would likely align with the Harpers as well. That is the problem you really have... their interest in you would only be partly because of your actions. Their main interest in you would be because you're a new power in the region. You are going to attract the eyes, ears and attention of many organizations, all of them who will want to monitor you. Strategically speaking, you've claimed a good region that is integral to every single nation on the Sea of Fallen Stars. You can pretty much bet that everyone of the following will have an interest in you: Harpers, the Zhents, the Emerald Enclave, the Empire of Shadows, the War Wizards of Cormyr, Damara, Impiltur, Aglarond, Thesk, Thay, Turmish, Chondath, Chessenta, Mulhorand, and Unther (if they are still not fully conquered by Mulhorand in your campaign) will be interested, along with every major powerful independent group in every single one of those nations, and a good chunk of semi-powerful groups as well. Oh, and a good number of powerful individuals. This could easily draw you into the internal politics of every one of those nations, which could be good or bad, depending on your position. Of course, this is not even taking into account all of those who live and operate under the sea. In the end, everyone is going to want to poke a finger in your pie, leaving little to no pie for you. What you do on the Pirate Isles directly affects all of those nations and the groups within them. It is hard to give suggestions on what your group should do since I do not know how much wealth you have, your levels, your group make up, and your alignments. In any case, if I were you I would seriously think about creating a portal to a place where you can begin training your military that is not based on the Pirate Isles. Preferably, this would be somewhere that all of the aforementioned groups have no connection. I would suggest some place like Maztica, where you can exploit the natives and steal their wealth. You can base your military over there, keep your primary naval forces within the Sea of Fallen Stars, and have your Military come through your portal if the isles are invaded. Otherwise, they could be on the other side of the world, bringing you chests filled with gold.
Ioulaum 02-25-08, 01:00 PM	Yes, that might be a good way to kick things off with them. Still if I were the DM these guys would be harrying you endlessly. :P They would likely align with the Harpers as well. Surprisingly they are not. Harper Agents who poke their nose in business of the Emerald Enclave usually end up dead. That goes for Zhents, RW and other powers as well. The EE isn't good or Evil, it is as close to a TN a organization as you are going to fine. The best way to deal with the EE is to already make a aquiantice of the local Seros Druid organization, invent them as well as the Seros gov to setup a embassy. When the EE show up complainting just point them to the local Seros Druids. As for the others power i agree with Meldread, as a new power they are all going to test you one way or another. just to see tough you and how weak you are. Besides a good military you will need some high skill diplomats to negotiate for you. I defintely start off but opening a alliance with the Underwater Seros and strengthing that alliance every chance you get. But the first 5 yrs or so when you establish your free trade city should be a lot of fun and your DM should be able to keep you group busy for a long while.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 01:03 PM	Oh, yes... I should point out that the Emerald Enclave have portals that have allowed them to expand into many different regions of Faerun. Of course--they dislike expansion unless it applies to them.:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 02-25-08, 02:01 PM	There is a little on Dragon Turtles in Sea of Fallen Stars, but I don't see anything about Undersea druids in there - I'll look it over more carefully later. What little it does say is that there are ONLY 5-6 naturaly occurring Dragon Turtles in the Sea of fallen Stars, which indicates that numbers anywhere higher then that would represent an ecology "out of Balance". It also says they are not very social, unlike regular dragons, and they "eat first, ask questions later"... Though, the thought of that is rather disgusting, when you think about it... :yuck:
Lode 02-25-08, 02:02 PM	In the end, everyone is going to want to poke a finger in your pie, leaving little to no pie for you. What you do on the Pirate Isles directly affects all of those nations and the groups within them. That was a foregone conclusion, hence the idea of remaining neutral in politics and keeping our ports open to all. So long as we don't consistently favor any particular nation and play them off against each other we should be fine. We'll be providing a soon to be vital service to the Inner Sea economies and keeping the region relatively free of pirates, thus making more sense to keep us in place. I doubt anyone will try overt military conquest simply because that would compromise the idea of an impartial trading zone; incoming shipping will drop and it will no longer be economically feasible to have a presence on the Isles and eventually the pirates will return. Of course, that means our survival will depend on more covert actions as every single kingdom, despotism, and independent power will try using subtler means to influence us. In any case, if I were you I would seriously think about creating a portal to a place where you can begin training your military that is not based on the Pirate Isles. Preferably, this would be somewhere that all of the aforementioned groups have no connection. I would suggest some place like Maztica, where you can exploit the natives and steal their wealth. You can base your military over there, keep your primary naval forces within the Sea of Fallen Stars, and have your Military come through your portal if the isles are invaded. Otherwise, they could be on the other side of the world, bringing you chests filled with gold. Eh, even my character would feel uncomfortable with the massive exploitation of primitives. Our military will be almost completely naval and defensive in character. The Pirate Isles are not well suited to raising horses and there's not enough land to have a feudal system take hold or even to support a large population. We'll have the most professional and effective water-borne military in the world, but not a whole lot of ability to actually take the fight to anyone else aside from lightning raids from longships and maybe taking a coastal city or two. If I built a portal anywhere, it would be to the Heroic Realm of Ysgard where my troops can get some real training. The best way to deal with the EE is to already make a aquiantice of the local Seros Druid organization, invent them as well as the Seros gov to setup a embassy. When the EE show up complainting just point them to the local Seros Druids. Is Seros an aquatic elf kingdom? It would provide more motivation for other countries to trade if they knew they could get goods from the underwater races. Of course--they dislike expansion unless it applies to them. Well, yeah. Only an idiot can't see that their cause is just and they are never, ever wrong.:rolleyes: One idea I've been tossing around is ceding some of the smaller, less habitable islands to different groups. We've already done as much with the Church of Tempus, as much out of gratitude for their help as out of the hope we'll be able to levy warpriests from them should we need it. Only a few islands can support large humanoid populations, but I'm sure others can hold monasteries and the like with no problem.
Lode 02-25-08, 02:06 PM	What little it does say is that there are ONLY 5-6 naturaly occurring Dragon Turtles in the Sea of fallen Stars, which indicates that numbers anywhere higher then that would represent an ecology "out of Balance". It also says they are not very social, unlike regular dragons, and they "eat first, ask questions later"... Ha! Looks like we have our way out: "We were just thinning the herd in the Bay of Wyrms... to restore balance, of course." or "It was coming right for us!"
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 02:18 PM	Ha! Looks like we have our way out: "We were just thinning the herd in the Bay of Wyrms... to restore balance, of course." or "It was coming right for us!" -That's what I've been saying all this time! :P
Ioulaum 02-25-08, 02:28 PM	Is Seros an aquatic elf kingdom? It would provide more motivation for other countries to trade if they knew they could get goods from the underwater races. Not exactly, Seros is a open city where various underwater kingdoms meet to discuss and settle problems. It was recently reopen to combat the threat form the Taker (Threat form the Sea Novel). Sea elves, Merman, Triton and other underwater races are all included. Think of it as the UN of Sea of the Fallen Star. The group that has been taken care of Seros when it was seal, (can't remember their name) have a lot of scholars, magics, clerics and druids. Getting in good with Seros and offering your trade city as a place the underwater races can meet with the surface dwellers to hash out any problems, will earn you a lot of brownie points. As a additional bonus, increase trade between surface and undersea dwellers.
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 02:36 PM	-More information on Seros can be found in Sea of Fallen Stars.
Old Sage 02-25-08, 06:52 PM	The Wyrmskull Throne adventure module also. And Grand History as well.
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 12:34 AM	Not exactly, Seros is a open city where various underwater kingdoms meet to discuss and settle problems. It was recently reopen to combat the threat form the Taker (Threat form the Sea Novel). Sea elves, Merman, Triton and other underwater races are all included. Think of it as the UN of Sea of the Fallen Star. The group that has been taken care of Seros when it was seal, (can't remember their name) have a lot of scholars, magics, clerics and druids. Getting in good with Seros and offering your trade city as a place the underwater races can meet with the surface dwellers to hash out any problems, will earn you a lot of brownie points. As a additional bonus, increase trade between surface and undersea dwellers. They were called the Dukars, and the GHotR is LOADED with info about them and Seros. Describing them as an undersea 'UN" is very apt - good call. Even normally 'evil' races, like the Morkoth, Locathah, and Ixitxachitl participate. The only major one that refuses are the Sahuagin, but even their Malenti abominations are coming around. Dragon Turtles would most likely feed on the largest creatures in the food chain - the Whales - and the whales are VERY respected among the Serosians (they also participate - D&D whales are an Intelligent species, and you can even 'speak' with them). If you can prove that the Dragon Turtles are a threat to the Whales (which should be fairly easy), and you offer the sea-peoples a place to meet with surface-dwellers, you may just have a sweet deal going there.
Lode 02-26-08, 12:49 AM	Since I don't have any books about Seros, can anyone give me some basic info like location of the capital, relations with other nations, enemies, etc?
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 01:26 PM	They did it... the b@st@rds finally did it... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Jack_Sparrow_Pacified.jpg Sorry... couldn't help myself... this is what I was picturing everytime I read the title of this thread. :D Now... about your request - give me an hour or so, and I'll whip something up for you. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 02:07 PM	They were called the Dukars, and the GHotR is LOADED with info about them and Seros. I could have sworn reading that Dukars were based on Jedi (I think Steve Schend was actually the one who said that).
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 02:51 PM	Yeah - I can definately see that. They have that 'mysterious group behind the throne' thing going on, and they enforce the peace amongst the races, and are themselves made up of many different races. Good catch.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 04:19 PM	Yeah - I can definately see that. That have that 'mysterious group behind the throne' thing going on, and they enforce the peace amongst the races, and are themselves made up of many different races. Good catch. Thanks--I just figured it was interesting and important enough to mention.:)
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 05:26 PM	Okay, Seros Map (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Lands-of-Seros-78514022) is pretty much done. I only placed the cities - there are hundreds of more towns and points of interest, but I only bothered with the major ones. Bear in mind that my world map is slightly different then the official one, and the Sea of Fallen Stars 'shrunk' a bit in my version. Also, I placed all the islands so that they would be part of one very large chain, rather then a bunch of smaller groups. I did that because at one time I had the intention of running a pirate campaign, very similar to what you guys are doing, and I wanted all of the action in one central location. Seros is not really a Kingdom, so much as a group of independent countries that band together in times of trouble. Almost like a Confederated Empire, as it were. The city of Myth Nantar is where the Dukars do their thing, so that would be the equivalent of the 'UN' city (the book states that it is the Undersea Waterdeeep). It's not really a capital - I just marked it as such so that it is easier to find. The Pirate Islands are really part of the Sea Elf Kingdom of Eadraal, and it's capital is Voalidru. It is interesting to note in the timeline that in 1363, a great number of ships sank, and in 1367, pirates traveled to Seros (the Hmur Plateu) seeking treasure, and although many were killed and driven off, some made it out with magic and riches. In 1369, however, the undersea Kingdoms united once more to stop the threat of Iakhovas, and even worked with surface navies in order to stop him/it. This could possibly mean a truce has been temporarily declared between the Pirates and the Undersea Realms, so that both may recover form their grevious losses. See all the trouble you caused Brian? :P
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 05:40 PM	Okay, Seros Map (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Lands-of-Seros-78514022) is pretty much done. I only placed the cities - there are hundreds of more towns and points of interest, but I only bothered with the major ones. -On the map, you spelled 'Myth Nantar' wrong.
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 05:55 PM	No I didn't... :P Good Catch, BTW. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 05:59 PM	Good Catch, BTW. ;) -It called out to me like a bruised tomato.
Lode 02-26-08, 06:38 PM	They did it... the b@st@rds finally did it... Heh. It might have gone easier for the pirates this way, rather than raining down fiery death from the night sky. Awesome map. I didn't realize undersea settlement of the area was so extensive. If they are really as decentralized as you say, then this could be easier for us in some ways and more difficult in others. Does the confederacy of Seros have any particular interests?
Ioulaum 02-26-08, 06:39 PM	Okay, Seros Map (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Lands-of-Seros-78514022) is pretty much done. I only placed the cities - there are hundreds of more towns and points of interest, but I only bothered with the major ones. Bear in mind that my world map is slightly different then the official one, and the Sea of Fallen Stars 'shrunk' a bit in my version. Also, I placed all the islands so that they would be part of one very large chain, rather then a bunch of smaller groups. I did that because at one time I had the intention of running a pirate campaign, very similar to what you guys are doing, and I wanted all of the action in one central location. Seros is not really a Kingdom, so much as a group of independent countries that band together in times of trouble. Almost like a Confederated Empire, as it were. The city of Myth Nantar is where the Dukars do their thing, so that would be the equivalent of the 'UN' city (the book states that it is the Undersea Waterdeeep). It's not really a capital - I just marked it as such so that it is easier to find. The Pirate Islands are really part of the Sea Elf Kingdom of Eadraal, and it's capital is Voalidru. It is interesting to note in the timeline that in 1363, a great number of ships sank, and in 1367, pirates traveled to Seros (the Hmur Plateu) seeking treasure, and although many were killed and driven off, some made it out with magic and riches. In 1369, however, the undersea Kingdoms united once more to stop the threat of Iakhovas, and even worked with surface navies in order to stop him/it. This could possibly mean a truce has been temporarily declared between the Pirates and the Undersea Realms, so that both may recover form their grevious losses. See all the trouble you caused Brian? :P The pirates were working for Iakhovas so i doubt there was a any deal between the undersea realms and the pirates. They were working with members of the Comyr navy so a deal might have been struck there.
Old Sage 02-26-08, 06:50 PM	I could have sworn reading that Dukars were based on Jedi (I think Steve Schend was actually the one who said that).He did. Steven [Jun '05]:- "By the by, the inspiration for the Dukars (for those who hadn't caught all the hidden links/references/hints) was the Jedi. Of course, the Dukars were Jedi as I saw them long before the latest trilogy ever existed....."
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 07:11 PM	The pirates were working for Iakhovas so i doubt there was a any deal between the undersea realms and the pirates. They were working with members of the Comyr navy so a deal might have been struck there.I thought I remembered something along those lines, but I was just quickly going through the SoFS timeline, and it mentions all the ships fighting Iakhovas getting sucked to the bottom - my bad. I can't seem to remember anything about that series... weird. :thinks: Heh. It might have gone easier for the pirates this way, rather than raining down fiery death from the night sky. Awesome map. I didn't realize undersea settlement of the area was so extensive. If they are really as decentralized as you say, then this could be easier for us in some ways and more difficult in others. Does the confederacy of Seros have any particular interests?Yup, and like I said, there are TONS more - I only included the cities. Remember, they are NOT neccessarily as close as they appear on the map - you need to think in three dimensions here. The Tritons like to live in Shallow coastal areas, whereas the Morkoths (IIRC) like to live at the bottom of trenches. Although all of the races have fought each other at one time or another (and allied, too), the one enemy that has been persistant down through the ages are the Sahuagin. They are kept bottled up in the Alamber Sea, in their Kingdom of Aleaxtis, behind the Sharksbane Wall (an undersea 'Great Wall' that runs from the northern tip of Chondath to Altumbel, about 50 feet below sea level). There is a two-mile gap in the wall, as of the Dark Water Wars(?), and Sahuagin can be found in small groups throughout the Inner Sea now. Correction: Eadraal is a Merfolk Kingdom, NOT a Sea Elf one! You need to deal with the Merfolk, it seems... which might be a good thing, considering how poorly sea Elves view surface dwellers. :rolleyes:
Ioulaum 02-26-08, 07:28 PM	I thought I remembered something along those lines, but I was just quickly going through the SoFS timeline, and it mentions all the ships fighting Iakhovas getting sucked to the bottom - my bad. I can't seem to remember anything about that series... weird. :thinks: Yup, and like I said, there are TONS more - I only included the cities. Remember, they are NOT neccessarily as close as they appear on the map - you need to think in three dimensions here. The Tritons like to live in Shallow coastal areas, whereas the Morkoths (IIRC) like to live at the bottom of trenches. Although all of the races have fought each other at one time or another (and allied, too), the one enemy that has been persistant down through the ages are the Sahuagin. They are kept bottled up in the Alamber Sea, in their Kingdom of Aleaxtis, behind the Sharksbane Wall (an undersea 'Great Wall' that runs from the northern tip of Chondath to Altumbel, about 50 feet below sea level). There is a two-mile gap in the wall, as of the Dark Water Wars(?), and Sahuagin can be found in small groups throughout the Inner Sea now. Correction: Eadraal is a Merfolk Kingdom, NOT a Sea Elf one! You need to deal with the Merfolk, it seems... which might be a good thing, considering how poorly sea Elves view surface dwellers. :rolleyes: Also remember the trash you throw in the waters ends up in someones backyard. If you want to keep on the good side of the undersea races, built a really effcient waste disposal system so that little to none of the trash gets throw into the sea.
Lode 02-26-08, 09:05 PM	Correction: Eadraal is a Merfolk Kingdom, NOT a Sea Elf one! You need to deal with the Merfolk, it seems... which might be a good thing, considering how poorly sea Elves view surface dwellers. They'll all come around eventually. Also remember the trash you throw in the waters ends up in someones backyard. If you want to keep on the good side of the undersea races, built a really effcient waste disposal system so that little to none of the trash gets throw into the sea. If all goes according to plan, the Isles will have a very sophisticated infrastructure, Freehold (formerly Immurk's Hold) in particular. The only term I can think of to describe it is 'Eberronian.'
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 10:58 PM	Also remember the trash you throw in the waters ends up in someones backyard. -In the short stary taking place in the Sea of Fallen Stars in Realms of War, as Sea Elf says as much, almost word for word.
Lode 02-29-08, 03:55 AM	Here's a few ideas about our new campaign setting that I'm going to pitch to the rest of the group next week. Government: Merchant Republic. With a lack of arable land, a feudal government is unsuitable for the Free Islands (formerly known as the Pirate Isles). Instead, the power structure most closely resembles that found in medieval Venice, with very strong plutocratic and bourgeois elements. Wealthy gentleman merchants take the place of landed lords, bureaucrats and guildsmen comprise comprise the middle class, and sailors and dock workers make up the laborers. Law in the Free Islands is based loosely on the earlier Immurk's Code. Done more out of keeping something the islanders are familiar with than any sort of progressive impulse, the law mandates keeping harbors open to all ships, freedom of worship, and certain rights that all citizens possess no matter their station. Another reason for these laws was to make the Free Islands as attractive as possible to skilled craftsmen of all types. Even the name 'Free Islands' was chosen to draw people with a desire to settle in a new land free of their old feudal or guild obligations. Economy: The economy of the Free Islands are almost completely reliant on trade. This is not just to say that it is their only source of income, it is also their primary source of food. Grain shipments arrive daily to feed Freehold's burgeoning population. With what little arable land on the islands being bought up and cultivated by merchant lords for cash crop plantations, the rulers of Freehold are careful to remain neutral in international disputes, lest they find themselves cut off from mainland grain and facing a starving, angry, and armed populace. Military: With plenty of money coming in, the rulers of the Free Islands find themselves in the enviable position of being able to afford a completely professional military. Without the divided loyalties and murky command structure inherent in feudal and mercenary armies, the Free Islands Navy is perhaps the most effective waterborne force on the Inner Sea. Which is just as well, since the Free Islands lack almost any sort of army outside a defensive militia in which all Free Islanders are required to participate. Lack of a large population base and cavalry prevent Island marines from penetrating very far into foreign land. Anything else I should add?
Meldread 02-29-08, 11:53 AM	Lode- I like it. It sounds good, and can't think of anything else to add.
Ioulaum 02-29-08, 01:00 PM	Here's a few ideas about our new campaign setting that I'm going to pitch to the rest of the group next week. Government: Merchant Republic. With a lack of arable land, that only applies to the surface world. You can farm kelp and seaweed (which is very nutrious and tasty) underwater. Also you might want to consider getting your hand on a deepspawn to spawn some infinite cattle/sheep/pigs/chicken for you.
MarkusTay63 02-29-08, 03:02 PM	You're still going to need some vegetable matter to provide Vitamin C, or you're all going to come down with scurvy. :P Also, I don't know how long you are planning to play this campaign, but if you read the new WotC article, you don't have to worry about the Emerald Enclave for much longer. In fact, you won't have to worry about most of the undersea kingdoms either. Of course, your sea-trade is going to take a major hit, but at least you'll get some land to work with. ;)
Lode 02-29-08, 03:48 PM	that only applies to the surface world. You can farm kelp and seaweed (which is very nutrious and tasty) underwater. Also you might want to consider getting your hand on a deepspawn to spawn some infinite cattle/sheep/pigs/chicken for you. Is large scale underwater cultivation even viable without large scale magic? If not, then we're better off just importing most of our food. And the trouble with deepspawn is that you have to keep feeding it at least a 1:1 ratio in order to get stuff out of it. It's intelligence is also an issue. You're still going to need some vegetanle matter to provide Vitamin C, or you're all going to come down with scurvy. One of the major cash crops being grown is citrus. For a society dependent on shipping, there's major profit potential for the production of naval supplies. Also, I don't know how long you are planning to play this campaign, but if you read the new WotC article, you don't have to worry about the Emerald Enclave for much longer. In fact, you won't have to worry about most of the undersea kingdoms either. We've still got about a decade or so of adventuring time left, so I'm not too concerned. If it comes down to it we'll either adapt to the new circumstances or just pick up and leave. That is, assuming my character doesn't go completely mad from the spellplague. Any idea on the extent of the drainage?
Ioulaum 02-29-08, 04:53 PM	Is large scale underwater cultivation even viable without large scale magic? If not, then we're better off just importing most of our food. And the trouble with deepspawn is that you have to keep feeding it at least a 1:1 ratio in order to get stuff out of it. It's intelligence is also an issue. I doubt you need much magic, we are talking about farming stuff that grows underwater. You just need to hire the right people to do the job, sea elves/mermaids/tritons and other undersea races. And you need to provided the undersea magical equvailent of a scarecrow to protect you crops. Nothing major just different form what the type of magic you guys normally employ. But get permission form the local undersea druids first so that you don't mess up the undersea ecology. Besides Kelp and seaweed there other stuff you can grow underwater, not just edible plants either but medicinal as well.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 05:29 PM	We've still got about a decade or so of adventuring time left, so I'm not too concerned. If it comes down to it we'll either adapt to the new circumstances or just pick up and leave. That is, assuming my character doesn't go completely mad from the spellplague. Any idea on the extent of the drainage? The most recent article in Dragon mentioned a drainage of 50 feet. A lot of ports won't be ports anymore. Of course, you don't even have to introduce the Spellplague if you don't want to. I'm not going to.
Lode 02-29-08, 06:46 PM	I doubt you need much magic, we are talking about farming stuff that grows underwater. You just need to hire the right people to do the job, sea elves/mermaids/tritons and other undersea races. And you need to provided the undersea magical equvailent of a scarecrow to protect you crops. Nothing major just different form what the type of magic you guys normally employ. But get permission form the local undersea druids first so that you don't mess up the undersea ecology. We might implement that, and if that doesn't take then we could always just trade with the undersea races for food. The most recent article in Dragon mentioned a drainage of 50 feet. A lot of ports won't be ports anymore. That might actually work out in our favor. Assuming the Islands don't politically implode from the disruption in trade and efforts to deepen and widen the main harbor and channel are done in the ten years prior to the spellplague, we could see a lot more growth demographically and economically. But I'm not liking the sound of that Abolethic Sovereignty...
MarkusTay63 03-01-08, 01:22 AM	They're just big, ugly Catfish... get yourselves some REALLY big fishing poles and go to town. :P Also, try setting up a nice little Portal to somewhere where you can get decent supplies of food, not to mention an emergency escape path if you need one. There already is a handy working portal nearby (several, actually, and not just the ones I invented for my CK article), and you can read about it HERE. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20020227a) Or, conversely, you can just hire Jhaurmael Riversedge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rp/20020717a) to build you a custom-job. ;)
Lode 03-01-08, 01:51 AM	They're just big, ugly Catfish... get yourselves some REALLY big fishing poles and go to town. You know as well as I do that simply isn't true and I don't appreciate your efforts trying to get me turned into an enthralled slime mook of some Lovecraftian horror.:P Our party actually has a captured aboleth from a level back, now in dried husk form. As soon as we do some selective surgery on it and build a room with psionic dampeners we'll be able to properly interrogate the aberrant sumbi***. Also, setting up a nice little Portal to somewhere where you can get decent supplies of food, not to mention an emergency esacape path if you need one. With so many wizards running around with magic capable of instantly transporting people and goods across the world you'd wonder why all international trade wasn't conducted that way.
MarkusTay63 03-01-08, 02:42 AM	Especially with places like Thaymart and Aurora's.
Ioulaum 03-01-08, 11:44 AM	You know as well as I do that simply isn't true and I don't appreciate your efforts trying to get me turned into an enthralled slime mook of some Lovecraftian horror.:P Our party actually has a captured aboleth from a level back, now in dried husk form. As soon as we do some selective surgery on it and build a room with psionic dampeners we'll be able to properly interrogate the aberrant sumbi***. but if dip them in batter and deep fry them they do taste like fried catfish :P With so many wizards running around with magic capable of instantly transporting people and goods across the world you'd wonder why all international trade wasn't conducted that way. because 1, wizards of that caliber aren't working cheap. and 2 it also makes invasions easier if the other end of the portal falls into hostile hands.
Meldread 03-01-08, 01:40 PM	and 2 it also makes invasions easier if the other end of the portal falls into hostile hands. That isn't necessarily true. Allowing an army of greater numbers to come through the portal could be a good strategic move. (Think of it as the same move performed in the movie 300, where they used the pass to limit the number of troops that could attack them at once.) You can only send so many through the portal at a time, and additionally, you can have it so that only certain creatures can use the portal and have it so that your weapons are taken away as you pass through. That means no outsiders are coming through that portal, and anyone carrying a weapon automatically loses it. (It would likely end up in a magical chest in some govermental office that you'd have to go to and get it back as you're leaving.) Also, if you build the portal in a man-made tunnel you could collapse it if you ever had to in order to prevent your city from being overrun. Additionally, it is good to remember that you can disable portals for a limited period of time through using dispel magic.
Lode 03-01-08, 02:28 PM	but if dip them in batter and deep fry them they do taste like fried catfish Do you think I'd get a circumstance bonus on intimidate if I kept a giant vat of oil and some batter nearby during the interrogation? wizards of that caliber aren't working cheap They are if they're part of the ruling class, such as Thayan society. Then it's in their own interest to promote portal trade. it also makes invasions easier if the other end of the portal falls into hostile hands There are plenty of safeguards you can put on a portal, such as: passwords, keyed items, banned materials, simultaneous activation, etc. So I can't think of reasons why wizards would not want money making machines like portals.
Ioulaum 03-01-08, 02:36 PM	Do you think I'd get a circumstance bonus on intimidate if I kept a giant vat of oil and some batter nearby during the interrogation? you forgot the tarter sauce or do you prefer vinegar and salt?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 10:09 PM	With so many wizards running around with magic capable of instantly transporting people and goods across the world you'd wonder why all international trade wasn't conducted that way. Because it's not as foolproof as people think it is. This was actually mentioned in one of Ed Greenwood's recent Knights of Myth Drannor novels: sometimes people appear on the other side of the portal without their goods.
Meldread 03-01-08, 10:27 PM	Because it's not as foolproof as people think it is. This was actually mentioned in one of Ed Greenwood's recent Knights of Myth Drannor novels: sometimes people appear on the other side of the portal without their goods. Sure, you could house rule that, but as portals are detailed in the source books that isn't how it works. Of course, there are times portals malfunction - but they can generally be repaired if that happens. Other times, a portal may be designed to do exactly that (but in those cases it always happens). Generally speaking, though, even if this was a house rule, the portal would still be MUCH more reliable than overland travel or by sea. Not only would you gain the benefit of getting your goods where they need to go swiftly, but you also would not have to worry about your caravan / ship being robbed or attacked on the way. Although a portal is a large upfront investment, it pays for itself in time. Additionally, wherever you build a portal a community will tend to develop around it, just as villages and towns develop around trade routes, thus naturally extending your kingdom and providing an extra layer of protection and resource harvesting in the form of materials and coin.
Lode 03-01-08, 10:31 PM	you forgot the tarter sauce or do you prefer vinegar and salt? Yes. Because it's not as foolproof as people think it is. This was actually mentioned in one of Ed Greenwood's recent Knights of Myth Drannor novels: sometimes people appear on the other side of the portal without their goods. A reasonable risk, especially when compared to the hazards of overland travel. So long as you're getting a certain minimum of goods flowing back and forth, you should be good. As fond as I am of the setting, it would be better in my opinion if the ability to create portals was a kind of lost art.