Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suin Bahhar 04-08-07, 05:56 PM	Illythiir elves were already dark skinned right? And they lived in temperate desert areas? Were these ancient pre-drow elves nomadic like the halfling tribes today? After the destruction of Miyeritar was there anything left in the remains of their ruined cities? I heard their stands an Illythiiri stronghold in the Duskwoods called the Iron Pit (Athamault). What would a stronghold like that look like? Iron Pit doesnt sound like a friendly neighboorhood... Would this look anything like the ruins of Myth Drannor. What was their surface architecture like? High towers like most elves seem to favor? More like the treetop villages of Tangled Trees? Something else?
The Ubbergeek 04-08-07, 06:43 PM	Perhaps not unlike the Eberron drow?
Philalexandros 04-08-07, 07:17 PM	Crown Wars-era elves (Illythiiri or otherwise) were an incredibly sophisticated race. When I picture their accomplishments, I literally think "epic"; I try to conjure images that are titanic in scope. When I try to imagine the Iron Pit, I pop in the old "Akira" anime, and bring up the shot when Kaneda and friends use their jet-bikes to fly down the massive underground system of sewers beneath Neo-Tokyo. I think of subterranean walls reaching hundreds of feet high, vast armories, and massive chambers used for both forging and enchanting the sort of weapons the divine fear. I picture slender, winding stairways disappearing in the vast darkness, and magical platforms rising and falling with their masters and burdens in tow. I imagine arcane energies occassioanly lighting up areas with sinister light, and exposing sumblimely evil decor carved over every inch of surface. William O'Connor did a good job in the Player's Guide to Faerun (IMHO) of roughly showing what an ancient elven city might look like.
Old Sage 04-08-07, 08:08 PM	The pre-Descent dark elves were described as "dusky". I've always largely assumed this to read that the Ilythiiri possessed a tanned/dark olive complexion. Most of your other questions are dealt with, in some form or another, through the Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves accessory.
Treymordin 04-08-07, 10:08 PM	They were always dark, I just assumed that they looked the way that they do now.
Lord Karsus 04-08-07, 11:14 PM	-Note that they were simply called Dark Elves. Illythiir was one of their empires. The citizens of Illythiir were the Illythiiri. The Illythiiri were Dark Elves, but not all Dark Elves were Illythiiri. They were always dark, I just assumed that they looked the way that they do now. -They were dark-skinned, yes, but it does say that when they Descended to the Underdark, their skin grew black to reflect the darkness inside of them. You know how some Black people have light brown skin? Basically, that is what Dark Elves, for the most part, looked like. Know how some Black people have very dark brown, and black skin? That's what Drow Elves look like.
Zanan 04-09-07, 04:34 AM	By default and as described in Cormanthyr, the pre-Descent dark elves were dusky skinned elves using moon elven stats. Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet has a story about some other elves visiting a dark elven city in Ilythiir (note the spelling ;) ). There were more dark elves about than the Ilythiiri of Ilythiir, namely those of Miyeritar, who shared the realm with the wild elves. It is a common "mistake" to equate the dark elves of old with the drow (a.k.a. "dark elves") of today.
Soltares 04-09-07, 05:00 AM	Note that elves seem to 'tan' backwards. The Sun / Grey Elves who live in the highest mountains, under the harsh sun are often pale white in color. The High / Moon Elves who live in the woodlands are slightly darker skinned. The deep woods elves, such as the Grugach or 'Wild Elves' are described as 'nut brown' in color and live deep in the forest or jungle canopies, rarely, if ever, seeing the sun. The dark elves are darkest of all, and live in lightless conditions. Instead of a melanin reaction darkening the skin, elves seem to 'blend' to become lighter in brighter conditions, and darker-skinned in shadowy conditions. Sea Elves, conveniently, match this, becoming blue or green skinned, like their aquatic surroundings.
GothicDan 04-09-07, 08:23 AM	Moon Elves have the fairest skin, in general.
Lord Karsus 04-09-07, 10:28 AM	Moon Elves have the fairest skin, in general. -Nope, that honor goes to Star Elves now, being as that they are nearly Ethereal. They are silly though, especially with their headlights.
GothicDan 04-09-07, 11:09 AM	Blah Blah, Star Elves, Blah.
Suin Bahhar 04-09-07, 12:49 PM	Summarizing data; the dark elves were mainly dusky green/wild elves. lived in treetop villages came from a different part of the Fearie plane favorite diety was Lolth Ussumptions; used more necromantic and fiendish spells were more physical oriented (like all green elves) mined the earth for metals (Iron Pit construction) not all were transformed after the descent
The Ubbergeek 04-09-07, 02:09 PM	Strangely, that is not unlike Eberron's version of the drow again... You should look at this material for inspiration maybe.
Zanan 04-09-07, 04:25 PM	Summarizing data; the dark elves were mainly dusky green/wild elves. lived in treetop villages came from a different part of the Fearie plane favorite diety was Lolth - They were no more wild elves than they are now. Essentially, they were simply militaristic sun elves in mind, and dark (gray) skinned moon elves in stats. - Never ever encountered a dark elven treetop village, though not much has been written about the Miyertiar dark elves. Those of Ilythiir had cities, fortresses and all that. - Never read anything with regard to where they came from initially ... and I doubt that anything has been written on that at all. That said, we do know that e.g. Kiaransalee came from a world (Plane) where there were dark elves too. The Faerūnian ones don't hail from there though either. - Favourite deities where initially Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun, Lolth became interested only later, as did Eilistraee and Kiaransalee. Info on that can be attained from Cormanthyr and Lost Empires of Faerūn. Ussumptions; used more necromantic and fiendish spells were more physical oriented (like all green elves) mined the earth for metals (Iron Pit construction) not all were transformed after the descent - They turned to more effective spells against the other elven subraces, true enough. It was war and they had no qualms stepping over certain elven "guidelines". That said, the Vyshaan gold/sun elves of Aryvandaar were not that picky either. - They were more warlike than others, but whether that's a physically discernible trait? - There is no information on any of the elven nations / subraces regarding their mining activities. The "Iron Pit" is not dissimilar to what the Vyshaan built in the High Forest, was it Myth Glaurach (sp?) where the fey'ri where put into stasis? - The Descent "transformed" all dark elves of old into drow, whether they where the intended "evil" Ilythiiri or not. A slight blip in the casting of High Magic, not intended, but irreversible. ... That would be my reply to the above.
The Ubbergeek 04-09-07, 09:38 PM	- The Descent "transformed" all dark elves of old into drow, whether they where the intended "evil" Ilythiiri or not. A slight blip in the casting of High Magic, not intended, but irreversible. ... That would be my reply to the above. Sadly, the magic seems to have been rather cold and couldn't discernate between the ones who where evil in alignement and the ones not (the pre-descent drow were surely less monolothic than now). But then, like what happened to Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Dreiden in our world, it was war, a brutal, bloody war, and the spirits where down in rage and hate.... Like the Sundering of Ishtar in Dragonlance, it was like the war - brutal and direct.
Lord Karsus 04-09-07, 09:55 PM	But then, like what happened to Nagasaki, Hiroshima... -That's a good analogy, I think.
Alfryn 04-10-07, 08:02 AM	There is a contradiction in sources about the worship of the dark elves prior to the Crown Wars. The Evermeet novel suggests that on mass they worshipped either Vhauraun or Eilistraae on coming to Faerun and then took up with Ghaunadaur and much later Lolth. However, in Cormanthyr, Empire of the Elves source book it clearly states that prior to the Crown Wars they principally still worshipped Corellon, with the second most popular deity being Erevan, though it is of course possible that there was some cross over here with evil rogues actually worshipping and receiving favours from Vhauraun. There was some limited worship of other deities by the leaders of certain clans but the populace as a whole only turned from worship of the Selderine after the commencement of the Crown Wars and in particular after the Dark Disaster. Even in the Evermeet novel whilst Eilistraae frets about the activities of her brother's followers, she only states that "many" are followers of his among the southern elves, certainly not all. The dark elf in charge of the citadel that the northern elves visit is actually a worshiper of Ghaunadaur, but that does not mean the rest of the populace does, and he is most dismissive of the worship of Vhauraun claiming his followers are mostly "thieves, raiders, rogues of all kinds", which would be in keeping with Eilistraae's statement as clearly it is the more extreme elements in the dark elves who follow him. As for the attitude also displayed in that novel of dark elves tending to treat light elf subjects as inferior, it should be remembered that even in Myth Drannor there was definite class distinction with ordinary elves expected to move out of the way of the nobility and be deferential to them, so it is clear that there is class distinction within elf society and since in Illythiir the dark elves are the nobility they are only acting in exactly the same way as their northern counterparts. One thing that no source disagrees on is that the dark elves were a very aggressive, warlike race. However, that is in keeping with a primary god whose portfolio includes warfare and warriors and has the domain of War, and whose god of archery, Solonor, likewise has the domain of War. Even the fact that the dark elves kept slaves does not automatically mark them out as evil for slavery is endemic in Mulhorand and the chief deity there is Lawful Good. In this case it is the treatment of the slaves that determines the moral outlook of the person who keeps them. What I would suggest is that the dark elves were more likely neutral in outlook than good and because of their natural aggression were more easily pushed over and corrupted into evil.
Alfryn 04-10-07, 08:10 AM	Just one other point, in response to the original poster, I had always understood that the dark elves lived not in sun drenched deserts but in the tropical forests and jungles of the deep south, where dark skins would be very effective concealment in the deep shadows under the trees.
GothicDan 04-10-07, 05:02 PM	However, in Cormanthyr, Empire of the Elves source book it clearly states that prior to the Crown Wars they principally still worshipped Corellon, I don't remember reading that in C:EotE.
boards 04-10-07, 06:11 PM	Summarizing data; the dark elves were mainly dusky green/wild elves. lived in treetop villages came from a different part of the Fearie plane favorite diety was Lolth Ussumptions; used more necromantic and fiendish spells were more physical oriented (like all green elves) mined the earth for metals (Iron Pit construction) not all were transformed after the descent What is this "Iron Pit"?
Suin Bahhar 04-10-07, 06:33 PM	It lies in the Duskwood in the Shaar i believe. It's an old darkelf military base. I assume its deserted... Did the old darkelves have bealnorn? I'd like to but a powerful darkelf bealnorn in the pit that guards the long lost fortress. He will have to have survived the Dark Disaster by being sufficiently different from his fellow dark elves at the time. He's a powerfully build oak-like illithirian dark elf with black barklike hair, shining rubylike eyes and his skin looks almost ghostlike due too his stealth and powerfull magics. He's a competant arcane archer and has kept his vows of protecting the dead dark elves of the Iron Pit. His rather peacefull parklike cemetary area has never been defiled, up untill the PC's are arriving... ::thumbsup: ?
The_Shaman 04-10-07, 06:46 PM	Does anyone know what happened to the non-Illythiri dark elves when their kin was turned in the drow? I believe some of them used to live with various elven tribes, and it's not likely they were just butchered en masse.
Old Sage 04-10-07, 08:25 PM	What is this "Iron Pit"?See the 'Athamault' entry in the "Crown Wars" section of Lost Empires of Faerūn.
Lord Karsus 04-10-07, 11:06 PM	Does anyone know what happened to the non-Illythiri dark elves when their kin was turned in the drow? -They were turned into Drow too.
Zanan 04-11-07, 03:47 AM	-They were turned into Drow too. ... and while not all of the pre-Descent dark elves were evil and mean, they were surely turned into bitter folk in those early years down below, when thousands of them died at the hands of the Underdark predators and the hostile surroundings in general. In that respect, the drow's hatred of their surface kin is far more feasible than the elven one's towards their dark kin. Though, obviously, the retaliation strikes of the drow might have had a say in this. The "Iron Pit" was indeed one Ilythiiri stronghold used for experiments that even the drow are hesitant to copy and check out. Baelnorn ... do remember that of the history of the Ilythiiri (et al) almost nothing has come down to us - sourcebook-wise. Essentially, the only sources are Cormanthyr, Evermeet, Demihuman Deities, and Lost Empires of Faerūn. And as far as I know, there is no mention of baelnorn in there ... but that does not mean much.
Zandilar 04-11-07, 04:50 AM	Heya, -They were dark-skinned, yes, but it does say that when they Descended to the Underdark, their skin grew black to reflect the darkness inside of them. You know how some Black people have light brown skin? Basically, that is what Dark Elves, for the most part, looked like. Know how some Black people have very dark brown, and black skin? That's what Drow Elves look like. This is pretty nit-picky, I know, but... Drow have skin that "resembles polished obsidian" (Races of Faerun, pg 34). It, therefore, is not comparable to ANY living Earth creature because our skin tones just don't correspond. There's some lovely pictures of polished obsidian here: Obsidian (http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Products/Pglossary/obsidian.html). The reason why art depicting Drow often shows them with dark blue, blue-black, red-black, or purple skin has more to do with the limitations of pigments. Most artists get around this limitation by using other colours to show highlights and shadows, or by using something that isn't quite black to begin with - in both cases, this invariably takes the over all colour away from black. I'm not really an expert artist, but I know enough to know that black is a very difficult shade to work with... I have yet to see a "true" depiction of a drow with the correct skin tone.
Alfryn 04-11-07, 08:43 AM	I don't remember reading that in C:EotE. Page.11 - Under the section: Campaign Introduction, priests of the elves in the arcane age. Pre -12,000 Dark elves worship Corellon and Erevan. After the commencement of the Crown Wars it states that they swiftly and solely turned to worship of Lolth, Ghaunadar and Vhauraun.
Walls 04-11-07, 09:48 AM	Heya, This is pretty nit-picky, I know, but... Drow have skin that "resembles polished obsidian" (Races of Faerun, pg 34). It, therefore, is not comparable to ANY living Earth creature because our skin tones just don't correspond. There's some lovely pictures of polished obsidian here: Obsidian (http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Products/Pglossary/obsidian.html). The reason why art depicting Drow often shows them with dark blue, blue-black, red-black, or purple skin has more to do with the limitations of pigments. Most artists get around this limitation by using other colours to show highlights and shadows, or by using something that isn't quite black to begin with - in both cases, this invariably takes the over all colour away from black. I'm not really an expert artist, but I know enough to know that black is a very difficult shade to work with... I have yet to see a "true" depiction of a drow with the correct skin tone. I am pretty sure it was artistic license hyperbole at it's finest. You'll see some chowadhead referred to as a mountain of muscle. They aren't literally a mountain.
Lord Karsus 04-11-07, 11:12 AM	I am pretty sure it was artistic license hyperbole at it's finest. You'll see some chowadhead referred to as a mountain of muscle. They aren't literally a mountain. -Exactly. This is pretty nit-picky, I know, but... -What I was getting at was the fact that both Dark Elves and Drow could have had dark skin complexions, but with different degrees of darkness.
Philalexandros 04-11-07, 11:24 AM	I know what you mean, Lord Karsus, but I think Zandilar is right on this one. The variance of skin tones that you describe is a natural thing. The change the Drow underwent, though, is specifically a curse, and I'm not sure that it really reconciles with variances better attributed to differing climate, topography, etc. It is incredibly difficult to land that "polished obsidian" look. The artwork of Drow of the Underdark, whose artists worked in black-and-white, came the closest to reflecting this. When it comes to painting, though, I can understand why most artists take a bit of license with the coloration. It is in this medium that purples, browns, etc., are predominate.
Lord Karsus 04-11-07, 11:42 AM	I know what you mean, Lord Karsus, but I think Zandilar is right on this one. The variance of skin tones that you describe is a natural thing. The change the Drow underwent, though, is specifically a curse, and I'm not sure that it really reconciles with variances better attributed to differing climate, topography, etc. -I know that, and I agree. It was the context of which I was using it (a comparison between something in real life and something in Faerūn) where I don't see how I said anything wrong. When speaking about Dark Elves, who had dark skin, I used light skinned blacks as the comparison, and when speaking about Drow Elves, who had dark skin, I used dark skin blacks as the comparison. I never alluded that Drow are dark skinned because of evolution and the climate, and if anyone thought thats what I meant, I can assure you that it is not what I meant, and that that notion is quite incorrect.
Philalexandros 04-11-07, 11:54 AM	I misunderstood your position: I thought you meant Drow have varying degrees of skin tone, when you were pointing at the variance between pre-Curse Ilythiiri and post-Curse Drow. Apologies!
The_Shaman 04-11-07, 04:31 PM	... and while not all of the pre-Descent dark elves were evil and mean, they were surely turned into bitter folk in those early years down below, when thousands of them died at the hands of the Underdark predators and the hostile surroundings in general. In that respect, the drow's hatred of their surface kin is far more feasible than the elven one's towards their dark kin. Though, obviously, the retaliation strikes of the drow might have had a say in this. Probably. So the non-Illythiri dark elves were also driven underground? Unfortunate, but understandable given the circumstances. Yet there were probably "exiles" a long time before a certain master of the scimitars... I wonder if some of them were assimilated into the wild or wood elven subraces. Oh well, thanks, everyone!
The Ubbergeek 04-11-07, 05:45 PM	Drow are 'humane' and not outsiders. There always was weirdoes, different drow, outcasts, rebels and such. He was not the first, he won't be the last. Like Dalamar was a 'traitor' of the high and noble Silvanestis in Dragonlance. As long as their is concience and free will, there is individuals who will think differently from the mass.
Philalexandros 04-11-07, 07:17 PM	I don't know... I think some of the opinions expressed here for the Drow border on apologism (Zanan! ;) )... We know that the worship of Lolth, Ghaunadaur, and others had been ongoing for 8,000 years. Lolth's church had been prominent as of -11,500 DR, and, 450 years prior to the banishment of the Ilythiiri, the worship of dark deities was the status quo. Given all this, and given the use of "dhaerow" to describe the Illythiiri collectively, it is obvious that non-evil dark elves were, by this time, a vast minority. Further reinforcing this is the fact the rest of the elves, while disgusted by the Dark Disaster, actually found the actions of the Illythiiri much more repugnant. It is a given that the ritual was not meant for those dark elves, and I would posit that this is where Eilistraee's worship comes into play. This might seem a rather recent innovation, but remember that, as of 16 years ago (2E, Drow of the Underdark), it was stated that as many as 15% of "Drow" were non-evil worshippers of Eilistraee. Methinks we found the descendants of those who were unnecessarily transformed.
Soltares 04-11-07, 08:01 PM	Different artists have also portrayed Drow with different tones. They seemed blue-black in the old D1-3 adventures, and are portrayed as brown-black in more recent appearances. I've also seen flat black and glossy black. It would be neat if they had some regional variance, covering different shades. Reddish-black would be pretty cool...
Old Sage 04-11-07, 09:01 PM	The text about the drow skin tone in the Underdark sourcebook was changed because artists supposedly couldn't draw/paint/etc ebony/obsidian skinned drow. Rich Baker said that they only did this in one sourcebook in the last 20 or so years because the artists had a difficult time drawing drow... thus the text was changed to match the artist images.
Zandilar 04-11-07, 09:22 PM	Heya, The text about the drow skin tone in the Underdark sourcebook was changed because artists supposedly couldn't draw/paint/etc ebony/obsidian skinned drow. Rich Baker said that they only did this in one sourcebook in the last 20 or so years because the artists had a difficult time drawing drow... thus the text was changed to match the artist images. That is true. Races of Faerun states one skin tone for drow, and that's polished obsidian. In Monster Manual 3.5, it lists it there as jet black (the picture of the drow there actually has skin very close to the colour I'd imagine, even if I don't like the picture much), and in the "2.5e" Monster Manual, it's listed as being simply black (while the picture depicts a drow with grey skin, an example of case in point). Drow of the Underdark is certianly an exception, and as such I'd tend to ignore it. As far as pre-descent drow go, I always imagined that they would have skin tones close to half-drow, a kind of dusky/twilight colour, rather than a deep tan/brown/golden brown.
The Ubbergeek 04-12-07, 12:11 AM	Maybe it's also because of a real-world issue... racism. I recall the reaction of some black peoples whom have seen official drow art, and some peoples who worked at cons playing drow 'mascots'. Their reactions where... not always happy. Maybe they changed things to escape possible 'blackfaces!' cries? Non-americans can't imagine always how touchy is this subject. And honestly, if they had the same skin tone as 'blacks', it would make me uneasy, you can understand why. Also, and for the same reasons, it was always noted and said that it's not the more or less dark brown of the humans 'blacks', but more like chinese ink, a blueish, purpleish dark tone.
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 12:15 AM	Maybe it's also because of a real-world issue... racism. I recall the reaction of some black peoples whom have seen official drow art, and some peoples who worked at cons playing drow 'mascots'. Their reactions where... not always happy. Maybe they changed things to escape possible 'blackfaces!' cries? Non-americans can't imagine always how touchy is this subject. And honestly, if they had the same skin tone as 'blacks', it would make me uneasy, you can understand why. Also, and for the same reasons, it was always noted and said that it's not the more or less dark brown of the humans 'blacks', but more like chinese ink, a blueish, purpleish dark tone. -The problem with that, though, is that there have been legends of evil black Elves dating back to the Norse, and the Germanic Tribes of the Middle Ages, and before- which are what Elves in general are based off of.
Zanan 04-12-07, 06:23 AM	I don't know... I think some of the opinions expressed here for the Drow border on apologism (Zanan! ;) )... Not exactly. I just like to present all the info which is available and not just the view that is commonly presented of the drow by the Drizzt novels alone. There is enough out there to get an objective view, but - for obvious reasons - not everyone has the chance to read all info on a specific topic. And even if you read all that is about, you still get nigh to no impression of life in Sshamath's magocracy, life in a Ghanaudaur or Kiaransalee dominated city. Nor what really happens in a Vhaeraun settlement. All that has to be brought to attention ... not least all those shortcomings of other elven subraces which eventually let to the Descent of the Ilythiiri and the other dark elves as well.
The Ubbergeek 04-12-07, 11:46 AM	-The problem with that, though, is that there have been legends of evil black Elves dating back to the Norse, and the Germanic Tribes of the Middle Ages, and before- which are what Elves in general are based off of. I was speaking of their look, the physical aspect. There was a thread about this on RPG.net once, and the reaction of african-americans to drow where not always very happy. I am implying that maybe they changed their skin tone to dodge 'blackfaces' outcries - 'evil BLACK elves?'.
GothicDan 04-12-07, 11:58 AM	Which is amusing, since no African Americans I've ever seen look anything like Drow... Brown != Black. But, you know. People are silly. As my Favorite German put it: "In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."
The Ubbergeek 04-12-07, 04:52 PM	Which is amusing, since no African Americans I've ever seen look anything like Drow... Brown != Black. But, you know. People are silly. As my Favorite German put it: "In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." I think we are both non-americans, so we can't understand how touchy and present is the subject of races in the USA... I don't know, but if I was a black man and I never heard of D&D, Forgotten realms, all that, 'dark/black elves' may make me very uneasy... An eerie vibe. Don't you think?
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 06:21 PM	I think we are both non-americans, so we can't understand how touchy and present is the subject of races in the USA... -I think Dan's from/in Pennsylvania. But anyway, yes, most black people are very touchy about race. Quite annoying, really. I don't know, but if I was a black man and I never heard of D&D, Forgotten realms, all that, 'dark/black elves' may make me very uneasy... An eerie vibe. Don't you think? -I know it sounds awkwards, but black is more than just for Black people. In other words, the color has had meaning long before the Americas were even discovered. Black symbolizes death, mystery, tragedy, sadness, mourning, morbidity, and so on. There was an Ancient Roman ritual (maybe also a Greek, or both) where "bad" days were marked with black stones, or something to that effect (I'm sure Dan can elaborate). They were called "Neferasti" days, and just by looking at the word, one can see the relationship of the word to other familiar ones. I was speaking of their look, the physical aspect. There was a thread about this on RPG.net once, and the reaction of african-americans to drow where not always very happy. I am implying that maybe they changed their skin tone to dodge 'blackfaces' outcries - 'evil BLACK elves?'. Which is amusing, since no African Americans I've ever seen look anything like Drow... Brown != Black.." -Dan is correct. Black Humans have the same physical characteristics, more or less, as White Humans, Red Humans, Yellow Humans, and whatever other colors there are out there. Elves, including Drow, are more slender, have a much lower BMI, are more angular, and so on.
theartistformerlyknownas 04-12-07, 07:17 PM	I become exceedingly annoyed by people that make correlations between fictitious races and those of the real world. Example: I was once asked by a former coworker/DM why I decided to play a Dwarf instead of a Gnome. I said I didn't want to play a gnome, to which he replied: "But Gnomes are so much like Jews" After which I paused, and asked him to repeat what he just said... "Ya know, they're so humorous and entertaining, they have such big noses, and they really like gems!" My reaction was kind of buried under the debate between a fellow gamer (a black guy) and DM about whether Jews were "white people." I haven't been back since.
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 07:48 PM	-Ladies and gentlemen, those are what we call "dicks" (excuse the language). :nonono:
MarkusTay63 04-12-07, 08:26 PM	Since the descent took place on Toril (canon), but dark Elves became Drow in EVERY SINGLE SPHERE where the Elven Pantheon was worshipped or held sway (notice I didn't say 'world', since some live in space on other bodies, like in Greyspace). I would say that that was one HELLUVA curse! :eek: This means that even if the Star Elves had hidden a few away in Sildėyuir, the fact that there were worshippers of Corellon (the Star Elves themselves) present in that extra-dimensional space means that the Dark Elves would have been cursed regardless; there skin turning true black (not brown), and their eyes becoming sensitive to light. As an interesting side note, their was a small Drow kingdom in the Forest of Mir of Vhaerun worshippers, and no-where as far as I know does it say that they came from underground. I would hazard to guess that this group might have been the only one that stayed topside after the descent, but their capitol was later destroyed by the Tethir Elves when they were discovered. They even ALLIED with Calimshan and the Aranea of the Spiderswamp against the beholders of the Lake of Steam! In fact, it was soon after that that the surface Elves found out about them and attacked. See what happens in one of the VERY rare occasions that the Drow are on the good side? Ebil yucky surface Elves show up and start trouble, even when this particular group of Drow had been living peacably for years. :( Bummer........
theartistformerlyknownas 04-12-07, 08:42 PM	-Ladies and gentlemen, those are what we call "dicks" (excuse the language). :nonono: Yeah LK as one Jew to another, being compared to a gnome is waaayyy below the belt (no pun intended)! I AM NOT A LAWN ORNAMENT! (No offense meant to Another_Gnome or the Gnomish community on general.) As for the debate about Jews being "white" It really depends upon being Ashkenazim or Sephardi. I tend to think of us as the "unleavened white bread"...
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 09:02 PM	Yeah LK as one Jew to another, being compared to a gnome is waaayyy below the belt (no pun intended)! I AM NOT A LAWN ORNAMENT! -I chuckled, but that isn't something that people in such a relationship (Coworker-to-Coworker) say. (No offense meant to Another_Gnome or the Gnomish community on general.) -No. We like Gnomes. :thumbsup: As for the debate about Jews being "white" It really depends upon being Ashkenazim or Sephardi. I tend to think of us as the "unleavened white bread"... -Groups that most people have no clue about, methinks. At least, not in the majority of the Western world. I like the unleavened white bread, though. I think I might use that sometime. :)
theartistformerlyknownas 04-12-07, 09:26 PM	I like the unleavened white bread, though. I think I might use that sometime. :) Now I need an ego-boosting sig!
GothicDan 04-12-07, 09:50 PM	-I think Dan's from/in Pennsylvania. But anyway, yes, most black people are very touchy about race. Quite annoying, really. I was raised and lived in NJ for most of my life, and am currently attending school in PA. But I'm proud that someone thought I wasn't American. ;)
Dxzauvrinn 04-13-07, 03:27 AM	-I think Dan's from/in Pennsylvania. But anyway, yes, most black people are very touchy about race. Quite annoying, really. Well, wouldn't you be if the racial group you belonged to was persecuted and enslaved for hundreds of years because of the color of their skin in the very same country you still live in today? What about if people made sweeping generalizations about you just because you had that skin tone, or upon all too frequent occasion, treated you differently and unfairly because of that skin tone or because of how certain media outlets portrayed your people? I think, regardless of what you may think you would do, you'd be a bit sensitive too. In real life, despite what people want to believe, a lot people are racist (either behind closed doors or openly) or just insensitive and don't realize how they come across to people who aren't like them. And if you're a minority, everyday you're forced to deal with that. That natural, but honestly unfair bias. There's been only a handful of white people that I've met who have really thought through the attitudes they have towards other races and made a conscious effort to "check themselves," (probably because their parents never taught them to, but you can only blame your parents for so much after you reach adulthood and have to take responsibility for your own actions) but the majority that I've encountered haven't, and go about their everyday lives without realizing that their disposition towards black people is not the same as it is towards other white people. And even if some do realize that they do treat black people or other minorities differently, they just don't care because they don't have to. Being black is something black people are everyday so everyday black people have to deal with the majority, who are white, that have problems/or different attitudes with/towards them because their black. As far as the drow issue is concerned, I initially thought it was kind of odd that the only elven subrace with black skin was evil, but I really don't think that that was meant to offend anyone. I think the drow curse turned dark elves skin black to reflect the darkness in their hearts. Though I do think that pre-descent dark elves had skin tones very similar to black people.
Zanan 04-13-07, 03:31 AM	As an interesting side note, their was a small Drow kingdom in the Forest of Mir of Vhaerun worshippers, and no-where as far as I know does it say that they came from underground. I would hazard to guess that this group might have been the only one that stayed topside after the descent, but their capitol was later destroyed by the Tethir Elves when they were discovered. They even ALLIED with Calimshan and the Aranea of the Spiderswamp against the beholders of the Lake of Steam! In fact, it was soon after that that the surface Elves found out about them and attacked. The Drow you mentioned appeared in an earlier book as well, where it was claimed that they were actually worshippers of Bhaelros (an alias of Talos) and that they were even worse than the normal drow. That has changed over the years (canon lore on them, that is) and they have been turned into Vhaeraunians etc. by now. You find notes on them in various places (Cloak & Dagger and Demihuman Deities (Vhaeraun entry -> Dallnothax et al), but IMHO they are just a surface settlement that has seen the odd mention, but has been established much like any other drow surface settlement long after the Descent. IMHO - and you could ask Ed on this over at Candlekeep - they came up from the Realms Below, just somewhat earlier than any others. The only alliances that I know they have made were with the Twisted Rune, amongst whoms agent they are listed.
Lord Karsus 04-13-07, 11:32 AM	Well, wouldn't you be if the racial group you belonged to was persecuted and enslaved for hundreds of years because of the color of their skin in the very same country you still live in today? -My people have been persecuted for about a few thousand years now, basically everywhere they've lived, by multiple groups, by individuals, and the social insitution itself. What about if people made sweeping generalizations about you just because you had that skin tone, or upon all too frequent occasion, treated you differently and unfairly because of that skin tone or because of how certain media outlets portrayed your people? -Again, because of our beliefs, my people have been persecuted to the umteenth degree, and in many cases today, it is generally accepted that doing so is acceptable. I think, regardless of what you may think you would do, you'd be a bit sensitive too. -For the most part, I don't say anything, and I don't let stupid comments bother me. Sure, I'll get angry at the time, but I don't let it sit inside of me and simmer, and I don't use anything as a crutch, nor does society, in general. -And, I'm not going to go on anymore, since I don't see this conversation progressing in a positive direction...
Dxzauvrinn 04-13-07, 01:02 PM	-My people have been persecuted for about a few thousand years now, basically everywhere they've lived, by multiple groups, by individuals, and the social insitution itself. -Again, because of our beliefs, my people have been persecuted to the umteenth degree, and in many cases today, it is generally accepted that doing so is acceptable. -For the most part, I don't say anything, and I don't let stupid comments bother me. Sure, I'll get angry at the time, but I don't let it sit inside of me and simmer, and I don't use anything as a crutch, nor does society, in general. -And, I'm not going to go on anymore, since I don't see this conversation progressing in a positive direction... Karsus, if you're saying this because you're Jewish, then you still don't deal with what black people deal with on a daily basis because you're white (or look white). Most people probably don't even know you're Jewish unless you let them know. Are you followed around at least half the stores you go into because you're Jewish? Do people treat you like a thug or criminal because some Jewish people committed a crime somewhere? Black people can't so easily blend in. And your people's persecution didn't even happen in this country. I'm not saying their struggle was less severe, but it wasn't here and it wasn't as recent. Btw, black people don't use being black as a crutch (it's something we have to deal with that you don't), but because you think that I see that you're just another example of how white people like you just don't have a clue. "it is generally accepted that doing so is acceptable." What!? What kind of defeatist attitude is that? Again, that's proof enough that you don't deal with squat compared to what black people have to deal with. And, if you were worried about this conversation going in a non-positive direction you should have never made the comment you did earlier: "But anyway, yes, most black people are very touchy about race. Quite annoying, really." Remember, you brought real world race issues into this conversation, which before was dealing with fantasy races.
GothicDan 04-13-07, 01:08 PM	Btw, black people don't use being black as a crutch (it's something we have to deal with that you don't), Speaking positively of stereotypes (everyone of a given type aren't bad) is just as innaccurate as speaking negatively about stereotypes. Where I grew up (south Jersey), they most certainly used it as a crutch. As did a lot of Hispanics, too (and I'm Hispanic myself). In other words: I've seen more than my fair share of stereotypes being grounded in actual experiences. Not just about blacks - about EVERYONE. Germans? Pragmatic and sometimes cold and condescending? Well, that certainly describes half of my family. And the other half is so stereotypically Puerto Rican that it hurts.
Dxzauvrinn 04-13-07, 01:29 PM	Speaking positively of stereotypes (everyone of a given type aren't bad) is just as innaccurate as speaking negatively about stereotypes. Where I grew up (south Jersey), they most certainly used it as a crutch. As did a lot of Hispanics, too (and I'm Hispanic myself). In other words: I've seen more than my fair share of stereotypes being grounded in actual experiences. Not just about blacks - about EVERYONE. Germans? Pragmatic and sometimes cold and condescending? Well, that certainly describes half of my family. And the other half is so stereotypically Puerto Rican that it hurts. I understand where you're coming from Dan and I agree with you for the most part. I'm just reminding LK that the reason black people may seem a bit sensitive about race is because there's a lot of history and everyday reminders tied to that feeling. I would agree that it's not enough for black people to continue to use 300+ years of slavery and Jim Crow as an excuse for being shortchanged, but when there's still people who on a daily basis don't let you forget who and what you are through unfair practices, it's bound to cause a bit of sensitivity.
GothicDan 04-13-07, 03:19 PM	I would agree that it's not enough for black people to continue to use 300+ years of slavery and Jim Crow as an excuse for being shortchanged, but when there's still people who on a daily basis don't let you forget who and what you are through unfair practices, it's bound to cause a bit of sensitivity. True. But 'reverse racism' (a stupid term altogether) was as prevalent where I lived as 'real racism.'
BrennonGoldeye 04-13-07, 03:37 PM	-Ladies and gentlemen, those are what we call "dicks" (excuse the language). :nonono: If you pulled their DNA and showed them what flows in their veins their heads would pop. It's fun. :D
Skeptical Clown 04-13-07, 03:38 PM	I know it sounds awkwards, but black is more than just for Black people. In other words, the color has had meaning long before the Americas were even discovered. Black symbolizes death, mystery, tragedy, sadness, mourning, morbidity, and so on. There was an Ancient Roman ritual (maybe also a Greek, or both) where "bad" days were marked with black stones, or something to that effect (I'm sure Dan can elaborate). They were called "Neferasti" days, and just by looking at the word, one can see the relationship of the word to other familiar ones. I know it sounds awkward, but this kind of metaphor is not a million miles removed from the racism that many black people have faced, not merely in America. Certainly the symbolism of black as a color was transferred to africans in general in some of the worst days of racism. And it is also an unavoidable and uncomfortable truth that fantasy literature has some uncomfortable ties to racism--the lily-white heroes Europeans of Tolkien, for example, stood against the untamed hordes of swarthy, dark-skinned men and orcs and trolls of Asia and Africa. These themes were not unheard of in the works of other fantasy progenitors like Robert Howard or H.P. Lovecraft either. For better and for worse, D&D bears some of that legacy, and there's nothing wrong with people treading gently around the subject of race.
Philalexandros 04-13-07, 04:26 PM	As I recall, though, race did not play a factor in Tolkien's world. The key factor was simply distance. The Men of the West were born closer to the Elves, who themselves had come from divine, undying realms. In essence, the only thing that the Men of Numenor/Gondor/etc had over the Harrad was that they were lucky enough to be taught by the Elves and such. The rest were unlucky in the sense that they did not receive these benefits, and thus were more vulnerable to the dominion of evil.
Lord Karsus 04-13-07, 05:43 PM	Where I grew up (south Jersey), they most certainly used it as a crutch. As did a lot of Hispanics, too (and I'm Hispanic myself). -Indeed. Many minorities use the past as a crutch, which is an attitude I positivley do not like for many reasons. Namely, it is a defeatist attitude, where basically whoever it is is admitting, "Well, I'm X, or I'm Y, so leave me alone." Institutionalized racism, sexism and all that is no longer permissible, and thus, saying that since I am X, or since I am Y you shouldn't expect me to do Z isn't a sound excuse to me. Certainly the symbolism of black as a color was transferred to africans in general in some of the worst days of racism. -In all likelihood, yes. My original point, however, was to point out that the color black has been associated with mystery, death and evil long before even pre-modern (1600s-19002) racial relations. Karsus, if you're saying this because you're Jewish, then you still don't deal with what black people deal with on a daily basis because you're white (or look white). -This is the "crutch" I was referring to earlier. Because a person is not of the majority means that the entire world is out to get them, and that they'll never get to be equal members of society, no matter what kinds of progressive changes take place? Most people probably don't even know you're Jewish unless you let them know. Are you followed around at least half the stores you go into because you're Jewish? Do people treat you like a thug or criminal because some Jewish people committed a crime somewhere? -No, I am not followed places, nor am I given the "evil eye". But, in mainstream, progressive society (mind you, not in backwater hicksville, where cousins marry cousins, and the such), no one gets followed, or gets the "evil eye". And your people's persecution didn't even happen in this country. I'm not saying their struggle was less severe, but it wasn't here and it wasn't as recent. -Sure it did. Anti-Semitism is a continuing thing, and a lot of it takes place in these here United States of America. Look at the Crown Heights Riots, which took place in the early 90s just a few miles from where I am currently sitting, typing this. That's just one example. Btw, black people don't use being black as a crutch (it's something we have to deal with that you don't), but because you think that I see that you're just another example of how white people like you just don't have a clue. -I like Bill Cosby's attitude- "It's not what they are doing to us. It's what we're not doing". Many influential blacks in the media (ie, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson) are constantly blaming "the man" for the stuggles of blacks since the Civil Rights Movement. In some cases, they do have points. I'll admit that. But, I find that in so many of the things they say, they simply are trying to shift the blame for whatever the problem is to others. "it is generally accepted that doing so is acceptable." What!? What kind of defeatist attitude is that? Again, that's proof enough that you don't deal with squat compared to what black people have to deal with. -Don Imus gets blasted and fired for making a borderline racist, more sexist comment. Al Sharpton, in response to a Jewish clothing store moving into Harlem said, "We will not stand by and allow them to move this brother so that some white interloper can expand his business". In the end, an armed man broke in, killed a few people, and burned the place down. In the riots I mentioned before, Al Sharpton started the, "Whose streets? Our streets! No justice, no peace!" chants. Both seem pretty ethnically motivated. What disciplinary actions were ever taken on Sharpton, who literally has blood on his hands? And, if you were worried about this conversation going in a non-positive direction you should have never made the comment you did earlier: "But anyway, yes, most black people are very touchy about race.[I] Quite annoying, really." Remember, you brought real world race issues into this conversation, which before was dealing with fantasy races. -I did say that, and I do find it annoying. Anyway, yes, I did bring up race, to compare skin tones of Dark Elves as compared to Drow Elves, which I explained once already. -Let's continue this conversation in PM, if you want, because I actually do find these kinds of conversations very intriguing, and interesting. :)
BrennonGoldeye 04-13-07, 08:08 PM	**There will now be a 12 hour intermission with snacks and punch in the foyer. All posters are urged to put board above ego and continue any needed discussions through PMs** In the meantime, For your entertainment.....http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=802430 or http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12088978&postcount=21 or maybe even http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11868673&postcount=63. All well born threads.:ayyyy!:
Lord Karsus 04-13-07, 08:46 PM	-I'm surprised you didn't provide a link to the "Orc orc orc... Thread". ;)
Skeptical Clown 04-13-07, 09:25 PM	As I recall, though, race did not play a factor in Tolkien's world. The key factor was simply distance. The Men of the West were born closer to the Elves, who themselves had come from divine, undying realms. In essence, the only thing that the Men of Numenor/Gondor/etc had over the Harrad was that they were lucky enough to be taught by the Elves and such. The rest were unlucky in the sense that they did not receive these benefits, and thus were more vulnerable to the dominion of evil. Yeah, and the people who were "closest to elves" just happened to be a bunch of studly white guys, whose few numbers made up for the fact that the nobility of their spirit was more than a match for the seething hordes of people who were dark-skinned and slant-eyed... Coincidence? Yeah, right. The racism (not to mention sexism) inherent in most early 20th century fantasy stories is stark and obvious. I'm not making apologies for it, nor condemning it (what would be the point?), but I am saying that since D&D borrows heavily from it, it needs to be careful about how it interprets and presents that information in the present day. -In all likelihood, yes. My original point, however, was to point out that the color black has been associated with mystery, death and evil long before even pre-modern (1600s-19002) racial relations. My original point: So what? I didn't deny that colors have long had such associations. My point was that those associations are tender subjects right now. So it's generally decent to be at least a little sensitive to that.
Zandilar 04-13-07, 09:42 PM	Heya, Coincidence? Yeah, right. The racism (not to mention sexism) inherent in most early 20th century fantasy stories is stark and obvious. I'm not making apologies for it, nor condemning it (what would be the point?), but I am saying that since D&D borrows heavily from it, it needs to be careful about how it interprets and presents that information in the present day. I can't speak about racism, but sexism is still very prevalent. If there are female characters in a novel, they tend to play second fiddle to the male characters - even in novels written by women! (I was reading Trudi Canavan's "The Black Magician" series recently, and while one of the main characters was female - she was about the only female character in the novels, everyone else was male. (There was a second character introduced in the last novel as if Ms Canavan suddenly went "oh yeah! I need another female character, I only have one!")) And if a female is the protagonist, much of the story is dedicated to her relationships with her male companions. (ie: she's defined by them, usually.) It is for this reason that I mostly avoid reading Realms novels these days. I picked up Blackstaff to flick through so I could get a general idea of what had happened to Khelben, and found the story intriguing enough to read through. Tsarra was an interesting character, and though she was a main character - she mostly seemed to be helpless, and went through several rather large emotional fluctuations (some of them not adequately explained). In the end, she jumped into bed with a guy she had exchanged less than 10 lines with in the entire novel. I won't mention the invisibility of non-standard sexualities in novels (and source material)... oops too late. ;) Ah, well I really should stop as this is way OT, and I'm sure one of the mods might take exception to almost wholely novel discussion.
Philalexandros 04-13-07, 10:41 PM	Yeah, and the people who were "closest to elves" just happened to be a bunch of studly white guys, whose few numbers made up for the fact that the nobility of their spirit was more than a match for the seething hordes of people who were dark-skinned and slant-eyed... Uhm, no. There were few of them because the majority of their number turned willingly, selfishly, arrogantly evil. Tolkien specifically differentiated between them and the eastern folk, whose only sin was being dominated by an unbearable evil. Want more? The Orcs, the foulest of the creatures in these mythos, were Elves corrupted by the same evil into twisted, horrid forms. Not dark-skinned, slant-eyed forms, but mockeries of their former selves. By contrast, the Easterlings and Harradrim are both described as tall, strong folk. Some of the early Easterlings actually do ally with the Elves and the Men of the West. The Harad, in fact, ally with Sauron only after the Numenoreans drive them to it. Look, I don't deny that racism, racists, etc., are still alive and well today. On the other hand, though, you're doing little other than peddling (perhaps that's a strong word, and if so I apologize) stereotypes right now. You mention coincidence but the fact of the matter is that there *isn't* any because the perception of racism in Tolkien's work hardly survives a reading of even just the Silmarilion.
BrennonGoldeye 04-13-07, 10:44 PM	No punch for you folk.:P
DojiHoturi 04-13-07, 11:23 PM	I am of the mind that the current color (true black) came from the magic that sent them below. I imagined them pre-Descent as a color similar to that describing the Wild Elves now. Almost a bronze color, perhaps. All dark elves were changed, demeanor notwithstanding, to 'match the color of the blackness in their hearts.' This could have created bitterness amongst even those, as some have described earlier, or it could have reinforced the 'cult' worship of deities like Eilistraee and Corellon. Probably a bit of both. I would be willing to bet there might even be a city or two of primarily Eilistraee worshipping drow. Drow are not 'magically' evil. Therefore, alignment tendencies are just that, tendencies. I would estimate 10-15% good, maybe another 20-30% neutral. As far as there coloration in game art...it is unfortunate that the brownish tints worked there way into many of the earliest of them. I have no real problem with the use of 'blue-black' or 'purple-black' or 'red-black' or 'green-black'. Polished black has a tendency to absorb hints of color that reflect onto it. Stand next to a freshly polished automobile that is black and see the color reflected in it. That is what Drow skin tone looks like. I pictured their society to be a bit more rigid than some of the other elves, except the Vyshan (sun/gold) elves. More militaristic and opportunistic and 'in the moment.' As far as the 'atrocities' committed by the dark elves during the Crown Wars, remember that the victor writes the history books. Considering the Vyshan have their own aberrant behavior marked and the were effectively the winners, imagine what they actually did. I will not go so far as to say that what the Dark Elves may have done is good. All indications are that they were dealing with demons and dark magics, and that will get you nasty punishments like turning your skin to the blackness that lies in your heart. I picture the Dark Elves (both pre-descent and post-descent) to be the most industrially creative and inventive of the elves. Something akin to the dwarves or gnomes, but less practical and complicated respectively. Function was important, but beauty was as much a driving force to cater to their vanity, which is not necessarily an evil trait in itself. Perhaps, something to look at is that it seems that elves were more divided by region than by actual race. Much like nations in our world. Race was almost irrelevant, it just happened that more Dark Elves were from the regions that rose up against the Vyshan (however indirectly) than other races of elves. Because of that regional racial dominance, regional association became racial association to the point that racial epithets became common (eg. 'dhaerow'). To use a modern day example of the Crown Wars and why the dark elves might have decided to do what they did. The US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. Let us say that the Vyshan are Al-Qaeda. The Vyshan (i.e. Al-Qaeda) do something naughty and tick off the dark elves (i.e. the US). The dark elves respond by invading a known stronghold owned by the Vyshan (e.g. US and Afghanistan). Most recognize this as a valid response. But then the dark elves invade a nation whose associations with the Vyshan are not as easily recognized (e.g. US and Iraq). Some elven groups can still see why the dark elves are doing what they are doing and go along, or at least acknowledge the reasoning behind their actions (i.e. the Coalition). Other elven nations look at the dark elven response as unlawful and world threatening and potentially evil (i.e. the rest of the world). Or, you could look at the dark elves as the Al-Qaeda and the Vyshan as the US for another twist. Because this is fictional, this is where you can have all kinds of creative fun figuring out whether or not one group or another is actually acting morally; perhaps both groups are, even if by different standards. Morality is, for the most part, quite subjective. **I did not include the above example as a possible window to discuss whether or not the US is doing something right or wrong in our own world. I tried to (and hope I succeeded) in providing a view that I think just aptly describes the situation without taking sides. If you have a point of view on this, or think that I somehow took a stand on the situation and you want to dispute what I have written, please just PM me and leave the thread intact.** Looking forward to the Drow book coming out in May, even if it is non-realm specific. Although that is good in some ways, you always want to have a place to put your owns ideas as to how this race has developed. 2 pennies, Doji
Skeptical Clown 04-14-07, 12:19 AM	Look, I don't deny that racism, racists, etc., are still alive and well today. On the other hand, though, you're doing little other than peddling (perhaps that's a strong word, and if so I apologize) stereotypes right now. You mention coincidence but the fact of the matter is that there *isn't* any because the perception of racism in Tolkien's work hardly survives a reading of even just the Silmarilion. Strange. I've read the Silmarillion several times. And the racism in the LOTR survives--is even blindingly obvious. If I'm peddling in stereotypes, I"m only repeating what the novels themselves spell out just as literally. The purity of bloodlines is a constant theme in the Lord of the Rings. Again I'm not saying Tolkien was a terrible man or something; I'm merely pointing out that fantasy literature, including Tolkien, has a history of casual racism, of a sort that's not really welcome today, and which is appropriately glossed over and phased out.
DojiHoturi 04-14-07, 12:36 AM	Warning: semi-hijacked thread Action to be taken: PM each other please, or start a new thread in a different section so you can hash your stuff out. Lets try to keep this remotely on topic, please. ps. I suppose I should thank you all for not bringing up Hitler in this discussion. 2 pennies
Philalexandros 04-14-07, 01:08 AM	Strange. I've read the Silmarillion several times. And the racism in the LOTR survives--is even blindingly obvious. If I'm peddling in stereotypes, I"m only repeating what the novels themselves spell out just as literally. The purity of bloodlines is a constant theme in the Lord of the Rings. I don't really see the basis for your argument in this matter (again, I'm not trying to come off as snide; I simply don't see it). Racism, casual or not, is based on some level of prejudice or discrimination. The body of evidence of Westron or Elven fallibility, arrogance, megalomania, bigotry, greed, violence, sin, etc., is prevalent and obvious. Compared to this, I find the "sin" of Easterlings/etc. (that is, of merely being without the protection/influence that keeps the Westerners free of Morgoth, Sauron, et al) to be incidental at best. You could, I suppose focus on individual themes (bloodlines) to make your case, but I would argue that the total work sends a completely different message. Getting back on subject, I guess I never really identified Drow with people of African ethnicity because I automatically viewed the Drow look as a photonegative of the "standard" form--as opposed to just being "darker." Perhaps I'm unusual in this, but this just goes hand-in-hand with my refusal to attach ethnic connotations to any of the Elven descriptors. Unlike humans, I have always assumed that Elves do not evolve and that any identifying features of theirs (be it skin, hair, etc) is a direct connection to their creator-deity.
Dxzauvrinn 04-14-07, 03:43 AM	- -This is the "crutch" I was referring to earlier. Because a person is not of the majority means that the entire world is out to get them, and that they'll never get to be equal members of society, no matter what kinds of progressive changes take place? -No, I am not followed places, nor am I given the "evil eye". But, in mainstream, progressive society (mind you, not in backwater hicksville, where cousins marry cousins, and the such), no one gets followed, or gets the "evil eye". -Don Imus gets blasted and fired for making a borderline racist, more sexist comment. Al Sharpton, in response to a Jewish clothing store moving into Harlem said, "We will not stand by and allow them to move this brother so that some white interloper can expand his business". In the end, an armed man broke in, killed a few people, and burned the place down. In the riots I mentioned before, Al Sharpton started the, "Whose streets? Our streets! No justice, no peace!" chants. Both seem pretty ethnically motivated. What disciplinary actions were ever taken on Sharpton, who literally has blood on his hands? Karsus, I'm not even going to continue this conversation with you after this post. I don't believe I could change your mind no matter how many points I make. You feel how you feel and I feel that your outlook in this regard is sad. The fact that you could call Imus' comment "borderline racist" is one of the craziest things I've ever heard. I can understand people saying he shouldn't have been fired, but not even Imus denied that his comment wasn't stupid and racist. I believe you're in denial about what's really going on. Because you haven't been given the "evil eye" you assume that it doesn't happen to anyone? Oh, you said unless they're where?? In the south? Is that what you meant by backwoods? Wow, that's so interesting because I could have sworn that I dealt with that bit of discrimination A LOT more when I lived up north (in Philly, Delaware, Maryland) than I do now that I live in the south. And as far as your comment about black people thinking the "entire world is out to get them" (I'm entertaining this because you personally know that all black people think this because you're A) a psion, or B) you're a black psion and you've not only experienced this personally, but you've read every other black persons mind and they're thinking the exact same thing!), that's just a baseless jab. I don't any black people, including myself, that have ever expressed having that feeling. Also, most of the black people I've met (and I'm saying I met because I don't know what every black person thinks and feels just because I'm black) don't think we're "never going to be equal members of society." We already are because it's something that we've fought for and won. But just because that's the case, it doesn't change the attitudes of the people who never wanted us to get there in the first place. And those people, who a lot of the times are in positions of power, DO try to keep black people from reaching high positions. Anyway, I'm tired of talking to you about this Karsus. I don't think you understand or can even empathize. But what does your opinion matter anyway? Just because you're disillusioned about how things are for a race of people that you're not a part of doesn't change how things really are. Especially since those "things" are not something that you, as a white male, will ever have to deal with, but you could at least recognize that they do exist and give a bit of serious thought as to how they could effect someone. But then again, whatever conclusion you come to can only be what you'd imagine you'd do in that situation, and not what you would do.
Zanan 04-14-07, 04:17 AM	As we are already straying off topic, may I ... DNS, which is actually the German abbreviation for DNA, is a fine way to remember the spelling of V'elddrinnsshar, the centre of Kiaransalee's worship on Toril. Because D and N and S are the only letters which are doubled in the name. Obviously, you need to keep the rest in mind as well. BTW, I like the uniforms and general appearance of the "easterlings" ... BTW II, I for one wouldn't go into genetics and real life analogies when it comes to explain the logics etc. of certain fantasy races. If they are menat to be obsidian skinned, they are.
GothicDan 04-14-07, 06:26 AM	Wow, that's so interesting because I could have sworn that I dealt with that bit of discrimination A LOT more when I lived up north (in Philly, Delaware, Maryland) than I do now that I live in the south. I see it much less up here... How odd. I guess it's just a matter of local 'tradition' nowadays. Which makes sense, really. The Civil War's long gone, and now things are (or should be) more personal.
GothicDan 04-14-07, 06:30 AM	I can't speak about racism, but sexism is still very prevalent. If there are female characters in a novel, they tend to play second fiddle to the male characters - even in novels written by women! (I was reading Trudi Canavan's "The Black Magician" series recently, and while one of the main characters was female - she was about the only female character in the novels, everyone else was male. (There was a second character introduced in the last novel as if Ms Canavan suddenly went "oh yeah! I need another female character, I only have one!")) And if a female is the protagonist, much of the story is dedicated to her relationships with her male companions. (ie: she's defined by them, usually.) It is for this reason that I mostly avoid reading Realms novels these days. I picked up Blackstaff to flick through so I could get a general idea of what had happened to Khelben, and found the story intriguing enough to read through. Tsarra was an interesting character, and though she was a main character - she mostly seemed to be helpless, and went through several rather large emotional fluctuations (some of them not adequately explained). In the end, she jumped into bed with a guy she had exchanged less than 10 lines with in the entire novel. I won't mention the invisibility of non-standard sexualities in novels (and source material)... oops too late. Ah, well I really should stop as this is way OT, and I'm sure one of the mods might take exception to almost wholely novel discussion. Personally, I think you confuse sexism with personal preference of authors. Authors will write about things they are most comfortable about. If I wrote a fantasy novel that had a gay couple in it, most likely you wouldn't know they were gay at all, unless their relationship factored into it... But would writing about a gay couple make me straight-biased? No. Nor does it make the authors of fantasy books. You're making the mistake of assuming that fantasy novelists are in any way in alliance with each other; they aren't. They all write (for the most part) what they feel is most preferrable. Sure, WotC as a rule might shy away from such things, but even if they didn't, I doubt many of the novelists in WotC, if any, would make same-sex relationships in the forefront - no more than I'd feel comfortable with writing extensively about straight relationships. That's just my opinion, of course. But I'm a scientist, and think that everyone would get along better if they stopped focusing on how each of us was different, and more on how we're all the same.
GothicDan 04-14-07, 06:32 AM	Again I'm not saying Tolkien was a terrible man or something; I'm merely pointing out that fantasy literature, including Tolkien, has a history of casual racism, of a sort that's not really welcome today, and which is appropriately glossed over and phased out. And there SHOULD be a certain amount of racism in fantasy literature. Racism developed on Earth, and lasted (and still does last) for thousands of years. So racism (or similar forms; in Faerun, it's more culturally-centric biases than skin tone) is a natural development, if not a GOOD one. A purely fantastic world which didn't contain racism or bias would be really, really distastefully created, if you ask me.
GothicDan 04-14-07, 06:34 AM	Phil: Perhaps I'm unusual in this, but this just goes hand-in-hand with my refusal to attach ethnic connotations to any of the Elven descriptors. Unlike humans, I have always assumed that Elves do not evolve and that any identifying features of theirs (be it skin, hair, etc) is a direct connection to their creator-deity. Have some gay love. (Platonic.) <3 I think the very idea that people seem to be holding that Elves evolve is completely contrary to the way D&D has described them for decades. (Or real life mythology, for that matter.)
GothicDan 04-14-07, 06:36 AM	Anyway, I'm tired of talking to you about this Karsus. I don't think you understand or can even empathize. But what does your opinion matter anyway? Just because you're disillusioned about how things are for a race of people that you're not a part of doesn't change how things really are. Especially since those "things" are not something that you, as a white male, will ever have to deal with, but you could at least recognize that they do exist and give a bit of serious thought as to how they could effect someone. But then again, whatever conclusion you come to can only be what you'd imagine you'd do in that situation, and not what you would do. And that itself is the reason that racism will always exist: it always turns into "us" versus "them." You're "different," so you'll "never understand." Such statements, while not ENTIRELY untrue, ARE over-generalizations that only antagonize the opposite parties - just as you just did to Karsus. Do you really think that's going to actually change anyone's mind? How about the fact that we all share the same DNA and the same basic neurological and physiological functions, so we DO all understand each other? But again - scientist, here. I guess that's why modern science doesn't have much room for racism, reverse racism, or sexism (which I'm sure Zandilar will contest to, despite the fact that I've been enrolled in 3 separate universities' physics programs, and have personally known quite a number of female physicists - not to mention biologists.. ;) )
The_Shaman 04-14-07, 07:53 AM	And there SHOULD be a certain amount of racism in fantasy literature. Racism developed on Earth, and lasted (and still does last) for thousands of years. So racism (or similar forms; in Faerun, it's more culturally-centric biases than skin tone) is a natural development, if not a GOOD one. A purely fantastic world which didn't contain racism or bias would be really, really distastefully created, if you ask me. QFT for any serious setting. Some form of xenophobia or another has probably been around for as long as we have existed, and if there's a fantasy world without racism (after all, different species/"races" are much more different than different human races), there better be a darn fine reason for that.
Suin Bahhar 04-14-07, 08:07 AM	*blinks* oO I opened up a awfull lot of cans o' worms. *tries to make sense of the fuzzy logics in the sub-racism topic* Being a bastard half blood all this scares me a lot. Race this Race that... Bah! My personal experiences are not bad though, on the contrairy. So I say: It's all about ballest genetics, babay! Yeah predescent dark elves were more like african style elves in my campaign. I like it that way. Think of the flavour of the Mirage setting from Magic. Good horse/ponyriders. Worship of the Fategoddes. Good archers and spearwielders. Just a product of their survival in a particular environment like all elves. I dont understand why they would start digging underground though.
Philalexandros 04-14-07, 08:22 AM	Phil: Have some gay love. (Platonic.) <3 Aaaaw! :D
Naria_of_Tymora 04-14-07, 08:40 AM	Note that elves seem to 'tan' backwards. The Sun / Grey Elves who live in the highest mountains, under the harsh sun are often pale white in color. The High / Moon Elves who live in the woodlands are slightly darker skinned. The deep woods elves, such as the Grugach or 'Wild Elves' are described as 'nut brown' in color and live deep in the forest or jungle canopies, rarely, if ever, seeing the sun. The dark elves are darkest of all, and live in lightless conditions. Instead of a melanin reaction darkening the skin, elves seem to 'blend' to become lighter in brighter conditions, and darker-skinned in shadowy conditions. Sea Elves, conveniently, match this, becoming blue or green skinned, like their aquatic surroundings. I really like this - it ties into their inate magical nature.
Suin Bahhar 04-14-07, 08:47 AM	I agree on this too. Oh and the 2e edition Cormanthor book says dark elves worshipped Sehanine Moonbow. It fits quite good, and would have maked them more nightly based wildelf like.
Zandilar 04-14-07, 10:16 AM	Heya, And that itself is the reason that racism will always exist: it always turns into "us" versus "them." You're "different," so you'll "never understand." Such statements, while not ENTIRELY untrue, ARE over-generalizations that only antagonize the opposite parties - just as you just did to Karsus. Do you really think that's going to actually change anyone's mind? How about the fact that we all share the same DNA and the same basic neurological and physiological functions, so we DO all understand each other? But again - scientist, here. I guess that's why modern science doesn't have much room for racism, reverse racism, or sexism (which I'm sure Zandilar will contest to, despite the fact that I've been enrolled in 3 separate universities' physics programs, and have personally known quite a number of female physicists - not to mention biologists.. ;) ) You know, I agree with you completely here. There are differences between us all, but relatively speaking the differences are so tiny as to be ridiculous. You take a pen knife to your thumb, the blood that wells up is red. Well guess what? My blood is red too. :) (Dan, I think I'm suffering a little tunnel vision when it comes to the presence of women in literature... but lets face it, the major audience for sci-fi and fantasy are male. Writers write what sells. Because I fall into a minority of the audience on two fronts (female and lesbian), I don't get catered to - and that leads to my current frustration with fantasy fiction. There are plenty of writers writing female characters, but there are more writers writing male characters. Hopefully that will change someday. Hopefully I'll be a part of that. ;))
The Ubbergeek 04-14-07, 11:49 AM	Phil: Have some gay love. (Platonic.) <3 I think the very idea that people seem to be holding that Elves evolve is completely contrary to the way D&D has described them for decades. (Or real life mythology, for that matter.) Somes of us don't ascribe to a tolkienesque view of the elves, where they are favoured or anything. Myself, I saw them as touched by magic, with a long life and unusual skills and aptitude and all that... But mortals like anyone else. That don't make then humans in funny suits, as long as they are made well, artisticaly speaking.
Dxzauvrinn 04-14-07, 02:02 PM	And that itself is the reason that racism will always exist: it always turns into "us" versus "them." You're "different," so you'll "never understand." Such statements, while not ENTIRELY untrue, ARE over-generalizations that only antagonize the opposite parties - just as you just did to Karsus. Do you really think that's going to actually change anyone's mind? How about the fact that we all share the same DNA and the same basic neurological and physiological functions, so we DO all understand each other? But again - scientist, here. I guess that's why modern science doesn't have much room for racism, reverse racism, or sexism (which I'm sure Zandilar will contest to, despite the fact that I've been enrolled in 3 separate universities' physics programs, and have personally known quite a number of female physicists - not to mention biologists.. ;) ) I suppose that was kind of a close-minded state. It seems like since this Imus situation occurred discussions about race and racial slurs have been popping up everywhere, apparently even on these boards. Two nights ago my boss even said some blatantly races comments in front of the whole newsroom that she almost got fired for. I'm not even sure if the whole Imus thing should have even gotten as much press as it did. If it didn't, it wouldn't have stirred up so many people's emotions about race. But anyway, I guess we should all hug now, hold hands, form a circle and sing "Kumbaya" or "We Are the World" after throwing back a few drinks or something? Hmmm.....what the heck, I'm down for that. :pint:
Skeptical Clown 04-14-07, 05:27 PM	I don't really see the basis for your argument in this matter (again, I'm not trying to come off as snide; I simply don't see it). Racism, casual or not, is based on some level of prejudice or discrimination. The body of evidence of Westron or Elven fallibility, arrogance, megalomania, bigotry, greed, violence, sin, etc., is prevalent and obvious. Compared to this, I find the "sin" of Easterlings/etc. (that is, of merely being without the protection/influence that keeps the Westerners free of Morgoth, Sauron, et al) to be incidental at best. You could, I suppose focus on individual themes (bloodlines) to make your case, but I would argue that the total work sends a completely different message. Getting back on subject, I guess I never really identified Drow with people of African ethnicity because I automatically viewed the Drow look as a photonegative of the "standard" form--as opposed to just being "darker." Perhaps I'm unusual in this, but this just goes hand-in-hand with my refusal to attach ethnic connotations to any of the Elven descriptors. Unlike humans, I have always assumed that Elves do not evolve and that any identifying features of theirs (be it skin, hair, etc) is a direct connection to their creator-deity. My argument is not that Tolkien wrote his books with racist intent; my point is that racist notions crept into the book. If you line up some Tolkien characters, you can probably bet that the least European looking is the least virtuous. Likewise, Robert E. Howard didn't intend to write his Conan books as sexist stories; Howard's primary point was that civilization was inherently corrupt, and that only those who were in tune with their own natural, "barbaric" nature could truly be virtuous. But the sexism in the stories is blatant and obvious to anyone who knows what sexism is. I think part of the problem talking about these things is that people assume prejudice is an active and conscious decision. Really, the nature of prejudice is that it is simply a series assumptions that form the way we talk and act. Thus, Tolkien or Howard for example probably weren't thinking much about race and gender issues when they wrote their works--but their ideas about race and gender seeped into their works, without them thinking much about it. In a (hopefully) more civil age than they came from, we don't have the luxury of not thinking about these things at all. Fantasy and fiction cannot be totally divorced from reality; we still have to take into consideration what happens in the real world when we talk about these things. Fantasy does not exist in a void; it is a projection that we create. That's my point; I don't really care how people want to interpret books written over half a century ago (and I care less what those authors really were like). I just want to point out that there is good reason to be sensitive to how we interpret these things today. If people thought a bit more about these things, they probably wouldn't stumble into situations like Don Imus' in the first place.
Zanan 04-14-07, 06:06 PM	*blinks* oO I opened up a awfull lot of cans o' worms. Yes, all your fault! ;) Being a bastard half blood all this scares me a lot. Race this Race that... Bah! My personal experiences are not bad though, on the contrairy. So I say: It's all about ballest genetics, babay! BTW, just have a look at the entries of the derro or illithids, aboleths et al. Regarding racism and the like ... Yeah predescent dark elves were more like african style elves in my campaign. I like it that way. Think of the flavour of the Mirage setting from Magic. Good horse/ponyriders. Worship of the Fategoddes. Good archers and spearwielders. Just a product of their survival in a particular environment like all elves. Do note that pre-Descent Ilythiir was not Africa-like, at least nothing with mirages, horses, ponys et al. It was AFAIK more like the jungles that housed the Peruvian Southern Amercian Indian states (Maya, methinks?). Probably not much dissilmilar to modern day Chult. I dont understand why they would start digging underground though. They did not out of their own free will, they were forced by High and Divine Magic. And the Iron Pit was some sort of big dungeon-like fortress meant for experiments of the vilest nature. As I said, the dark elves of Ilythiir were no dark skinned wild elf -like barbarians, rather on the contrary.
Suin Bahhar 04-14-07, 07:09 PM	Do note that pre-Descent Ilythiir was not Africa-like, at least nothing with mirages, horses, ponys et al. It was AFAIK more like the jungles that housed the Peruvian Southern Amercian Indian states (Maya, methinks?). Probably not much dissilmilar to modern day Chult. So what was their cavalery like? They had none and utilised ambush tactics in the dusky jungles? They were mostly nocturnal? What made them different from the local green elves? Their worship of Lolth/Sehanine? Their building of (Maya-like) cities? *ducks* Their skin? *peeks* Their advanced necromantic magic and weapons and construction technology? They did not out of their own free will, they were forced by High and Divine Magic. And the Iron Pit was some sort of big dungeon-like fortress meant for experiments of the vilest nature. As I said, the dark elves of Ilythiir were no dark skinned wild elf -like barbarians, rather on the contrary. The Iron Pit was build pre-decent right? Because of the atroceties the darkelves did there the elves were seen as losing the blessing of Correllon. Would the Iron Pit have symbolisms of the Spiderqueen in it?
Zanan 04-15-07, 04:54 AM	So what was their cavalery like? They had none and utilised ambush tactics in the dusky jungles? They were mostly nocturnal? There is absolutely nothing said about their - or any other elven sub-races' cavalry. Nor do we know much about their jungle tactics - if any. And they were as nocturnal as any other elven-subrace (bar the fishy one), i.e. they behaved (most likely) much like the every-day moon or sun elf at night. IMHO, it was most likely much like a war as presented in the LotR movies, only with elves on both sides. The dark elves occasionally (and not from the start) used some fiendish / draconic support troops and warfare against the tree-villages and cities was obviously somewhat different. What made them different from the local green elves? They were the masters, almost any others were slaves (or considered as such). Nothing is known about local greens in Ilythiir though. Their worship of Lolth/Sehanine? Their building of (Maya-like) cities? *ducks* Their skin? *peeks* Their advanced necromantic magic and weapons and construction technology? You see, the sources are Cormanthyr, Evermeet (the novel), and Lost Empires of Faerūn. That's about all info there is on the ancient elven cultures. You get some interesting insights into Aryvandaar stuff in the Last Mythal series and one would expect that Ilythiiri technology wasn't much different. The Iron Pit was build pre-decent right? Indeed. The Aryvandaar empire of the Vyshaan had similar buildings, as has been said. Just a large fortress like thing, used for experimentation et al. If you want a smaller, human look-alike, check out Hellgate Keep. And, before you think the Ilythiiri were that bad in their choice of companions, Myth Glaurach was the place where the sun elves of the Vyshaan created and stationed their legion of fey'ri* ... those beings bred of succubi/incubi and suns. *We do not even know whether the dark elves ever did such things. Because of the atroceties the darkelves did there the elves were seen as losing the blessing of Correllon. No, for what caused the most trouble to the elven mind was the large-scale use of fire against tree-cities (etc.), allying with dragons and other "vile" creatures against their cousins, and eventuelly summoning demons etc. and using vile destrucive magic with the help of evil deities such as Ghaunadaur, Lolth and Vhaeraun. the Iron Pit was just one place where they did some experiments ... and hardly any sun, or moon, or whatever elf knew of its existence and lived to tell. Would the Iron Pit have symbolisms of the Spiderqueen in it? According to LEoF, at the time the dark elves were not even sure how the deities looked like, how their relation was etc.. Hence you get pictures of hybrid deities and creatures that would be an afront to any modern day drow.
Dxzauvrinn 04-15-07, 06:12 PM	There is absolutely nothing said about their - or any other elven sub-races' cavalry. Nor do we know much about their jungle tactics - if any. And they were as nocturnal as any other elven-subrace (bar the fishy one), i.e. they behaved (most likely) much like the every-day moon or sun elf at night. IMHO, it was most likely much like a war as presented in the LotR movies, only with elves on both sides. The dark elves occasionally (and not from the start) used some fiendish / draconic support troops and warfare against the tree-villages and cities was obviously somewhat different. They were the masters, almost any others were slaves (or considered as such). Nothing is known about local greens in Ilythiir though. You see, the sources are Cormanthyr, Evermeet (the novel), and Lost Empires of Faerūn. That's about all info there is on the ancient elven cultures. You get some interesting insights into Aryvandaar stuff in the Last Mythal series and one would expect that Ilythiiri technology wasn't much different. Indeed. The Aryvandaar empire of the Vyshaan had similar buildings, as has been said. Just a large fortress like thing, used for experimentation et al. If you want a smaller, human look-alike, check out Hellgate Keep. And, before you think the Ilythiiri were that bad in their choice of companions, Myth Glaurach was the place where the sun elves of the Vyshaan created and stationed their legion of fey'ri* ... those beings bred of succubi/incubi and suns. *We do not even know whether the dark elves ever did such things. No, for what caused the most trouble to the elven mind was the large-scale use of fire against tree-cities (etc.), allying with dragons and other "vile" creatures against their cousins, and eventuelly summoning demons etc. and using vile destrucive magic with the help of evil deities such as Ghaunadaur, Lolth and Vhaeraun. the Iron Pit was just one place where they did some experiments ... and hardly any sun, or moon, or whatever elf knew of its existence and lived to tell. According to LEoF, at the time the dark elves were not even sure how the deities looked like, how their relation was etc.. Hence you get pictures of hybrid deities and creatures that would be an afront to any modern day drow. Sounds extremely interesting. I would like to see a mega dungeon adventure on the Iron Pit sort of like Hellgate Keep and Undermountain. Perhaps there are some dark elves there that were imprisoned (like the spell) or that were in stasis before their kin were transformed to drow and are still (looks and stat-wise) pre-descent dark elves. Mayhaps some near epic dark elf baelnorn(s) protect the hellish hole along with other horrors (killer traps, fiends, undead, golems and some unique creatures created by the dark elves).
Prince Indirian 04-15-07, 07:53 PM	Drow are 'humane' and not outsiders. There always was weirdoes, different drow, outcasts, rebels and such. He was not the first, he won't be the last. Like Dalamar was a 'traitor' of the high and noble Silvanestis in Dragonlance. As long as their is concience and free will, there is individuals who will think differently from the mass. Well the elves are Chaotic as a race, so this only makes sense...
Lord Karsus 04-15-07, 07:59 PM	-PI, I got the PM. You should edit your post there, so we don't clutter up this one. Anyone who wants to discuss what we were all just talking about, feel free to PM me, since it is all pretty interesting stuff.
Prince Indirian 04-15-07, 08:47 PM	-PI, I got the PM. You should edit your post there, so we don't clutter up this one. Anyone who wants to discuss what we were all just talking about, feel free to PM me, since it is all pretty interesting stuff. Already done bro.Either way doesn't blackstaff mention anyhting new ?
Lord Karsus 04-15-07, 11:42 PM	Already done bro.Either way doesn't blackstaff mention anyhting new ? -About Dark Elves, a little. I recall that this fact really upset Markus, because Miyeritar was, after all, a Dark Elven nation, and they weren't featured very prominently when the city returned. The Dark Elves who did survive, and who never became Drow stayed as Sharn, because if they reverted to their normal forms, they would instantly be affected by the High Magic "curse".
theartistformerlyknownas 04-15-07, 11:53 PM	I think this kind of talk (the on topic one, that is) may be worthy of a place in your Netbook, LK...
Lord Karsus 04-15-07, 11:59 PM	I think this kind of talk (the on topic one, that is) may be worthy of a place in your Netbook, LK... -Ah, on topic. I was about to say...;) -Anyway, yeah, I've already got it covered, sort of. There are the articles for Miyeritar, and Ilythiir, of course. And, a week or so ago, for those of you who don't know, I added a whole new section, which basically is going to be an Elven Historical timeline, with essays (3-6 pages) on each topic I noted. The Second and Fourth Crown Wars are both listed, as well as the Rise of the Elven Empires.
Suin Bahhar 04-16-07, 10:07 AM	There is absolutely nothing said about their - or any other elven sub-races' cavalry. Nor do we know much about their jungle tactics - if any. And they were as nocturnal as any other elven-subrace (bar the fishy one), i.e. they behaved (most likely) much like the every-day moon or sun elf at night. IMHO, it was most likely much like a war as presented in the LotR movies, only with elves on both sides. The dark elves occasionally (and not from the start) used some fiendish / draconic support troops and warfare against the tree-villages and cities was obviously somewhat different. Miyeritar and Illithiri forces would have to be pretty solid even before their associations with devils. They had lots of El'tael (bladesingers), rangers and mages just like the moon and sun elves I presume. Or did they utilize more tactics ala LOTR with lots of slave units and small elite elven ones? They were the masters, almost any others were slaves (or considered as such). Nothing is known about local greens in Ilythiir though. Green elves were willingly slaves to the illithiir? Or were they sharing the slaves with the dark elves? You see, the sources are Cormanthyr, Evermeet (the novel), and Lost Empires of Faerūn. That's about all info there is on the ancient elven cultures. You get some interesting insights into Aryvandaar stuff in the Last Mythal series and one would expect that Ilythiiri technology wasn't much different. Ilithiiri technology, hmmm. Like the sound of that. Maybe I should pick up a copy of Evermeet then. The illithiir were at a sort of Magical peak before and at their fall. This was expressed in their cities i think----> same seemless building technology, lots of beneficial portals, cleansing magetech for resource gathering, nighttime lighting, et cetera. Indeed. The Aryvandaar empire of the Vyshaan had similar buildings, as has been said. Just a large fortress like thing, used for experimentation et al. If you want a smaller, human look-alike, check out Hellgate Keep. And, before you think the Ilythiiri were that bad in their choice of companions, Myth Glaurach was the place where the sun elves of the Vyshaan created and stationed their legion of fey'ri* ... those beings bred of succubi/incubi and suns. *We do not even know whether the dark elves ever did such things. They certainly do now---> look at that bastard son of one of the matron mothers of Menzo, Jeggred. Maybe the early form were much more hideous but i bet some of these woould be wandering the halls of Athamault still. No, for what caused the most trouble to the elven mind was the large-scale use of fire against tree-cities (etc.), allying with dragons and other "vile" creatures against their cousins, and eventuelly summoning demons etc. and using vile destrucive magic with the help of evil deities such as Ghaunadaur, Lolth and Vhaeraun. the Iron Pit was just one place where they did some experiments ... and hardly any sun, or moon, or whatever elf knew of its existence and lived to tell. Did Kiriansalee exist already before the Fall? Her vengeance portfolio could be closely linked to the retaliations of the illithiir after Miyeritars destruction. Ghaunadar and Lolth are gods that would go great lengths to empower their followers against Correllon and his Seldarine. Maybe the early worship of Kiriansalee, Ghaunadaur and Vhearaun was established by posing as real Seldarine such as Sehanine... According to LEoF, at the time the dark elves were not even sure how the deities looked like, how their relation was etc.. Hence you get pictures of hybrid deities and creatures that would be an afront to any modern day drow. Their dieties were not known by the other elves? Correllon had a pretty real relationship with a certain Fategoddes. This wouldn't go unnoticed by the priest of Correllon. The seldarine was bigger before the fall (it included all proto-drow dieties as normal seldarine), right? Ooh the mysteries are killing me and I love it!
The Ubbergeek 04-16-07, 11:11 AM	The Daughter and Son already existed, that is sure, as much as that slime entity.
Zanan 04-16-07, 12:33 PM	Just a quick reply on Kiaransalee. As far as I know she is no original FR deity, but got interested at some stage. And that stage was long after the Descent of the Faerūnian dark elves. She was out hunting anything Orcus and probably looking at Toril too, as he had a presence there. In this respect, while the Faerūnian drow do hate their surface kin with abandon, Kiaransalee and her priesthood have a special agenda. "Reclaiming" the surface is no priority of the dogma of the Revenancer though. In many ways, Kiaransaleen drow could provide less chaotic, less single-minded drow as other faiths do. Demihuman Deities as well as Evermeet pick on the events that got Kia interested, but do not expect large-scale explanations. So in essence, Kiaransalee did not belong to the Seldarine of Faerūn, but has now been established as a Faerūnian drow deity (despite having a Greyhawk namesake ... much like Lolth and Ghaunadaur.).
GothicDan 04-16-07, 12:44 PM	Silly clone-cosmologies!
Prince Indirian 04-16-07, 12:54 PM	-About Dark Elves, a little. I recall that this fact really upset Markus, because Miyeritar was, after all, a Dark Elven nation, and they weren't featured very prominently when the city returned. The Dark Elves who did survive, and who never became Drow stayed as Sharn, because if they reverted to their normal forms, they would instantly be affected by the High Magic "curse". Thanks, though I knew a little of this before. But did they know for sure that they would be affected ? Or was it merely suspicion
Zanan 04-16-07, 03:09 PM	Silly clone-cosmologies! Another such heretic comment and I ask the oh-so-cool looking WizO_Paradox to wield his scythe! :evillaugh
GothicDan 04-16-07, 03:11 PM	SILLY SILLY SILLY! ... Done now. ;) It's a good thing that TSR decided to have the cosmologies overlap, otherwise Lolth, Kiaransalee, and the rest would never exist in Faerun!
Zanan 04-16-07, 04:05 PM	SILLY SILLY SILLY! ... Done now. ;) It's a good thing that TSR decided to have the cosmologies overlap, otherwise Lolth, Kiaransalee, and the rest would never exist in Faerun! And Orcus! Oh, what a special place that would have been. But for all the purists we have Eberron now. Not that I know whether they have Corellon ... or even elves. (Nay, don't tell me!)
The Ubbergeek 04-16-07, 05:07 PM	They have elves, albeit their cultures tend to be.. unusual.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 05:53 PM	In other words: they're Elves in appearance only. If you ask me, that's no way to make something unique (use the appearance and strip it of everything else). I'd like them much more if they kept their culture, history, etc., but weren't Elves.
Mikayla 04-16-07, 06:10 PM	I have to chime to agree with Zandilar's take on fantasy fiction writing, which is to say it still suffers from a great deal of sexism. Its rare to find books with strong females as the central character, and when you do find them, Zandilar correctly points out that they are often defined by their relationship to a male (see Liriel and her Rasheman boyfriend for example). Even when the women are supposed to be the stars, they are often upstaged by males - and all too often fantasy novels are just expressions of male angst/agression against women (Drizzt and Jarlaxle repeatedly and endlessly outsmarting/killing the priestesses, again and again and ... yawn). Of course, like Zandilar I am female and a lesbian (well, ok, bi I suppose since I've actually dated as many men as I have women but I am currently in a long term girl-girl relationship) and so I suppose it should not come as a shock that we apparently view things similarly. On a tangent - Zanan mentioned that Kiaransalee was not an orginal FR deity - and I believe thats true, IIRC I believe Kia's homeworld is called Threnody.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 06:13 PM	Threnody is correct. And geez, you lesbians... It's so much harder being a gay guy. ;) How many references do you think are made (positive ones) about homosexual/bisexual MALES in female novels?
Mikayla 04-16-07, 06:24 PM	I've never read a "female novel." I did not even know that novels had gender. How interesting. I think I am going to get my Lord of the Rings set together with my War of the Spider Queen set, throw in the Lady Penitent book, "Homeland" and maybe "Mists of Avalon" and see if I cannot get them to mate and produce a decent series about drow priestesses of Lolth. ;) Nice to chat with you again GD. As for mentioning homosexual males in a positive way, well, if I ever get WotC to let me write a novel about the drow, I promise on my unholy spider-shaped lollipop of sweet-evilness that I will have a gay male character who is portrayed in a positive way . . . . . . at least until he ends up on the altar of course. I mean, thats where all good Lolthian stories finish, so, no disrespect there. :)
MsMarvelDuckie 04-16-07, 07:04 PM	From what I remember of dark elves in Cormanthyr, and the other sources as well, they were simply dark greyish in appearance. This changed after the descent, just as Lolth herself changed into her present form after her banishment from the Seldarine court. But some drow seem to be reverting back to the old appearance, at least to some small degree- like Drizzt's or Lirial's lavender or amber eyes, which were more common then. As to worship practices, Lolth was their chief patron in her "Weaver" aspect up until the Seldarine war. Then they began turning mainly to Gaunadhar and Vaeraun until she took them back. Eilistraee was always worshiped by a select few, mainly those who wished to remain apart from the strife of their fellows. This is why she often has non-drow elves among her faithful as well- they were in secluded areas that were not as affected by the Crown Wars.
TheCrescentSpider 04-16-07, 07:38 PM	Summarizing data; the dark elves were mainly dusky green/wild elves. lived in treetop villages came from a different part of the Fearie plane favorite diety was Lolth Ussumptions; used more necromantic and fiendish spells were more physical oriented (like all green elves) mined the earth for metals (Iron Pit construction) not all were transformed after the descent Actually, she was Araushnee, Corellon's consort, who bore him Eilistrae and Vhaeraun. She attempted to overun Arvandor with a host of spiders. The different elves worshipped her until thise point, but it was the pre-dark elves who heeded her call. Anyways, her attempt failed, and Corellon changed her to resemble a spider and threw her into the Demonweb pits. The drow were changed then, and were cast underground. Surprisingly enough, Lolth was a demon lord before she was able to drag worlds in to the Abyss, elevating her to deityhood. Selvatarm killed some elvish god of blades and took his protfolio. I assume Lolth appointed him her champion at this point. Eilistrae, although siding with Corellon, chose exile, as she thought there was still hope. Vhaeraun allied with her i guess, and Ghaundaur just inspired rebellious drow i guess. Kiarlansee was an ascended necromancer who killed orcus and held Thanatos for a bit before losing it to the newly formed orcus.
The Ubbergeek 04-16-07, 07:43 PM	In other words: they're Elves in appearance only. If you ask me, that's no way to make something unique (use the appearance and strip it of everything else). I'd like them much more if they kept their culture, history, etc., but weren't Elves. Why elves HAVE to be the tolkienesque ideals? I always hated the idea that anything that deviate from this idea of the elves make elves well, non-elves. They ARE elves, like it or not.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 07:44 PM	I've never read a "female novel." I did not even know that novels had gender. How interesting. I think I am going to get my Lord of the Rings set together with my War of the Spider Queen set, throw in the Lady Penitent book, "Homeland" and maybe "Mists of Avalon" and see if I cannot get them to mate and produce a decent series about drow priestesses of Lolth. Fantasy. Ahem. ... Come now, don't you know the Romance Languages have genders for their nouns? ;) Nice to chat with you again GD. As for mentioning homosexual males in a positive way, well, if I ever get WotC to let me write a novel about the drow, I promise on my unholy spider-shaped lollipop of sweet-evilness that I will have a gay male character who is portrayed in a positive way . . . In leather and chains? . . . at least until he ends up on the altar of course. I mean, thats where all good Lolthian stories finish, so, no disrespect there. But of course! I'd love it if an immensely handsome Sun Elven hero swooped in at the last moment to save him, to set up the stage for the next novel! ;)
GothicDan 04-16-07, 07:47 PM	Why elves HAVE to be the tolkienesque ideals? I always hated the idea that anything that deviate from this idea of the elves make elves well, non-elves. If you mention Tolkien one more time in reference to one of my posts, you're going on the ignore list. I do not care for Tolkien much at all; my opinions have nothing to do with his writings. They ARE elves, like it or not. Your abilities to state the obvious are astounding.
Mikayla 04-16-07, 07:51 PM	Actually, she was Araushnee, Corellon's consort, who bore him Eilistrae and Vhaeraun. She attempted to overun Arvandor with a host of spiders. The different elves worshipped her until thise point, but it was the pre-dark elves who heeded her call. Anyways, her attempt failed, and Corellon changed her to resemble a spider and threw her into the Demonweb pits. The drow were changed then, and were cast underground. The Ilythiir were not cursed and transformed until thousands of years after Araushnee's "fall" from Arvandor into the abyss. IIRC Araushnee had her tiff with Corellon-the-no-good-husband about -25,000 while the Descent (when the Ssri-tel-Quessir became the Drow) occurred at roughly -10,000. So, for thousands of years, Lolth was Lolth before there even were drow, just Ssri-tel-Quessir. Now...as to GD... 'Id love it if an immensely handsome Sun Elven hero swooped in at the last moment to save him, to set up the stage for the next novel! By Lolth I am actually feeling inspired - I can already envision a, shall we say, "alternative" line of D&D/FR novels about said ravishing sun-elf, the adventurous-but-unlucky-lover he rescues, the bi-sexual drow priestess who captured him but who was foiled by the sun-elf at the last moment, etc.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 07:55 PM	By Lolth I am actually feeling inspired - I can already envision a, shall we say, "alternative" line of D&D/FR novels about said ravishing sun-elf, the adventurous-but-unlucky-lover he rescues, the bi-sexual drow priestess who captured him but who was foiled by the sun-elf at the last moment, etc. I'll order 3 boxes! Provided the cover art is good. I demand Travis Fimmel as the Sun Elven model. Mmm.
Old Sage 04-16-07, 07:57 PM	On a tangent - Zanan mentioned that Kiaransalee was not an orginal FR deity - and I believe thats true, IIRC I believe Kia's homeworld is called Threnody.Indeed, GD is correct. 'Twas noted in Demihuman Deities.
Mikayla 04-16-07, 08:05 PM	I was correct, thank you very much. GD was just correct in his affirmation of my correctness, which is not to say he was not correct, he was, but his correctness is predicated upon my original correctness without which there would have been nothing to correct. Correct? ;) Sorry, bored at work. And now - back to brainstorming about my AD&D (Alternative Dungeons & Dragons) novel and its characters. So far we have a bold, adventurous hero, his sun-elf rescuer-lover (played by Travis Fimmel), a bi-sexual, potentially transsexual, evil drow priestess, and a gnome of questionable everything. And a dwarf. I like dwarves - regardless of orientation or gender, I find them cute and cuddly. Oh, and I think pre-descent dark elves were ... um ... tan. Yeah, deeply tan. Thanks. Thats my nod to the original topic which I have obviously strayed just a teensy-bit from... :embarrass
GothicDan 04-16-07, 08:10 PM	Mikayla's my kind of Drow. If only she followed Sehanine. ;) *Ducks.* Tan is good. But not too tan. Bodybuilder tan = gross! A dwarf? I'm thinking a clever, sneaky, Dwarven rogue who was outcast from his delve. EDIT: Can't spell. Watching Battlestar Galactica and drinking iced tea.
MsMarvelDuckie 04-16-07, 09:27 PM	Ah, I'd almost forgotten she was called Araushnee(sp?) then. But I'd like to think that somehow, SOMEWHERE, a few dark elves might have escaped the curse. Corellon and crew might have been angry, but I don't see them being quite THAT harsh. They were gods, after all, and could have spared some of them if they wished, in spite of the ritual's effects. What about Eilistraee and Vaeraun themselves? Were they transformed too? Because all the pictures you see of them has them looking like drow of today.
Lord Karsus 04-16-07, 11:11 PM	Thanks, though I knew a little of this before. But did they know for sure that they would be affected ? Or was it merely suspicion -Off hand, I don't recall if they knew definitley or not. But, as was demonstrated, they didn't want to take their chances. That shows to me that they might have known a little something about those "lingering effects".
theartistformerlyknownas 04-17-07, 03:41 AM	Mikayla's my kind of Drow. If only she followed Sehanine. ;) *Ducks.* Tan is good. But not too tan. Bodybuilder tan = gross! A dwarf? I'm thinking a clever, sneaky, Dwarven rogue who was outcast from his delve. EDIT: Can't spell. Watching Battlestar Galactica and drinking iced tea. And by bodybuilder tan you mean the "bronzed skin" that Sun Elves are reputed to have right? ;) But yes, dark elves were tanned. Not the wild elf tone, but duskier than sun elves...
GothicDan 04-17-07, 08:25 AM	No, I see them as being a shade more golden, myself. Not quite as actually brown!
GothicDan 04-17-07, 08:26 AM	What about Eilistraee and Vaeraun themselves? Were they transformed too? Because all the pictures you see of them has them looking like drow of today. They were multispheric deities that existed before the Dark Elves of Faerun were cursed; so yes, they always looked that way as far as we know.
Zandilar 04-17-07, 10:22 AM	Heya, They were multispheric deities that existed before the Dark Elves of Faerun were cursed; so yes, they always looked that way as far as we know. Of course there's nothing to say that Vhaeraun and Eilistraee didn't just change their form to match their people. They may not have always looked like drow. Just a thought. :)
Suin Bahhar 04-17-07, 12:21 PM	Eilistrae was redeemed by Corellon (fact that he DID pay attention to goodhearted drow, if only at diety level) but chose to be changed back to drow form. She felt there was still hope for the damned dark elves. I guess she must have looked like a dusky moonelf or darkelf before...
The Ubbergeek 04-17-07, 12:27 PM	Eilistraee exist just in Forgotten Realms (a point that the Greyhawkian grognards points with pride...). I think the best explanation I heard is that she choosed to share the fate of the Drow, to be able to save the ones who will listen. Kind of christic, sharing the cross with them and all...
MarkusTay63 04-17-07, 02:11 PM	Just getting here, sorry I'm late... The Dark Elven skin tone ranged from VERY deep brown (walnut) to shades of violet through purplish-black (but not TRUE black). A light-skinned Dark Elf (probably a pasty-faced wizard who kept to his tower) might have had grey skin. That means that there is NO real-world equivalent for Dark Elven skin coloration, just as there is none for Sea Elves. The more 'natural' brown skin tones, the kind we see on 'Black' people (sad that I had to figure out which word was appropriate) would be evident amongst Wild Elves, and Wood Elves would have skin tones similar to American Indians (reddish-brown). As far as Illythiir and Miyeritar go, I will be covering what little is known in my Netbook articles, to coincide with my Dark Elves racial piece. 75% of it will be based on facts (the few that exist), but the rest will have to be extrapolations from sources and Elaine's wonderful novel. suffice it to say that there were at least two kinds of Dark Elven culture, and that the more magical one was further sub-divided by ethics. As far as Im concerned, Dark Elven warriors rode riding lizards, BTW, not horses (and they took those with them into the Underdark). This both makes sense, and is VERY cool, being a long-time fan of the Warhammer game myself. When thinking Illythiir, think 'Klingon' - a competetive warrior culture with an intricate honor system. That is why the invasion of Miyeritar so incensed them - they felt that the Arvandaar dishonored their race. Like the ancient Samurai, they were willing to fight to the death to regain their lost honor. Somewhere along the way something went horribly wrong (Wendonai). :( The Wood Elves, Wild Elves, and Dark Elves all existed on Toril BEFORE the coming of the Gold and Silver Elves - the ways had been known for centuries. The creator race known as the Fey had created NUMEROUS portals between Fäerie and Abeir-Toril (and probably created the demi-plane of Fäerie as a refuge some 50,000 years ago). Also, the Star Elves more then likely were a group of Silver Elves that had migrated to Toril before the cataclysm in Tintageer, and had evolved down a seperate path (Elves are the ONLY known species that can evolve within a single lifetime, rather then over the course of generations, probably as a natural result of their lifetimes out-lasting their locations in many cases). Even the Maraloi (a cousin of the Elves, and perhaps a pre-cursor to them as well) had been around for millenia before the Elves came. It is just Gold-Elven arrogance (and maybe Silver) that places them at the top of the food chain. Remember, as far as we know, it was a Gold Elf (Durothil) who was the FIRST Elf to ally himself with Ghaunadar - not the Dark Elves! Could it be that the others left Fäerie because of this imperious attitude of the Golds? Perhaps... we shall see. ;) Sorry for the long-winded post, but one more thing - The Iron Pit (Athamault) was a laboratory located to the north of the main Illythiir lands, and therefore I speculate that it had been built by the Dark Elves of Atorrnash (or some other Northern city), who had retired from the main body of Illythiir to continue their evil magics in solitude. The Elves of Ilythiir were closer in attitude to Wild Elves (although not above using tech in warfare), but those to the north, in both Miyeritar and Atorrnash, were more magically inclined. Later, all these disparate groups would work together (although Atorrnash itself was distroyed during the sundering), which is most likely what corrupted their southern brethren from proud warriors into vengeful killers. Zanan is quite correct about the nature of early non-Seldarine worship, as indicated by the entry for the Citadel of Slime (LEoF pg.58). However, there is no indication that the Iron Pit had any of this Iconolgy present - it was for the most part just a giant underground magical fotress/laboratory after all (Although it 'may' have had a chapel of some kind attached to it). It is my belief (and fondest wish) that the only TRUE Dark Elves left on Toril lie behind Kraanfhaor's Door, kept safe from the curse in an extra-dimensional space in Stasis. Hopefully, with the return of Miyeritar, we will be finding out EXACTLY where that door leads. :D
BrennonGoldeye 04-17-07, 02:42 PM	Markus, if GDan reads this you might be in a bit of trouble. Elves don't evolve ya know.;)
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 04:09 PM	Like the ancient Samurai, they were willing to fight to the death to regain their lost honor. -Eh, I don't know about that. It they were that honorable, would they have turned to all those fell powers they began venorating? In their defense, though, they could have been tricked, at first... The Wood Elves, Wild Elves, and Dark Elves all existed on Toril BEFORE the coming of the Gold and Silver Elves - the ways had been known for centuries. The creator race known as the Fey had created NUMEROUS portals between Fäerie and Abeir-Toril (and probably created the demi-plane of Fäerie as a refuge some 50,000 years ago). Also, the Star Elves more then likely were a group of Silver Elves that had migrated to Toril before the cataclysm in Tintageer, and had evolved down a seperate path (Elves are the ONLY known species that can evolve within a single lifetime, rather then over the course of generations, probably as a natural result of their lifetimes out-lasting their locations in many cases). -As Brennon already mentioned, Elves do not evolve. Remember, as far as we know, it was a Gold Elf (Durothil) who was the FIRST Elf to ally himself with Ghaunadar - not the Dark Elves! -He is the first Elf we see that worships Ghaunadaur, but, as Artornash existed at this point, it is likely that the Elder Eye was venerated there as well, before Durothil began worshipping him.
The Ubbergeek 04-17-07, 04:26 PM	-As Brennon already mentioned, Elves do not evolve. Official discourses in the world is not always reality, and that depend on how you defines 'evolve' in an universe with the mysterious force of magic in the factor.
theartistformerlyknownas 04-17-07, 04:34 PM	As far as the culture of the pre-descent dark elves, I imagine a dynastic ruling body, and an artistic bent towards alabaster stone architecture with gold and bronze metalwork accents, not unlike the ancient Egyptians, but with a far more elvish look and feel... Markus can probably offer a better description, but I imagine them as "Art Nouveau Egyptian Elves" in the simplest sense.
MarkusTay63 04-17-07, 04:42 PM	It SPECIFICALLY states in Evermeet (pg. 109) that the Elves of Atorrnash worshipped Vhaeraun, NOT Ghaunadar. Later, Lolth subverted Ka'Narlist (the leader of Atorrnash) to HER whims, like she did with ALL of the other Dark Elven clans. The ONLY Dark Elves that were evil originally were the ones from the northern city-states of Illythiir, and that was do to the influences of Vhaeraun and Ghaunadar. When Lolth sent Wendonai to help them, his corrupting influence drove them down their current evil path. The Dark Elves lived in harmony with the others until the Gold Elves of Arvandaar started s__t. Also, I have read several references that state that the Illythiir had a warrior-culture. You do not think that the Illythiiri were 'honorable' enough to be compared to Samurai? You watch too many movies. :P The REAL Samurai would have cut down an innocent peasant where he stood had he NOT gotten out of his way. You can have a system of 'honor' (Bushido) and STILL be an arrogant bastitch! Honorable is applied to an individual given the morays of the society he came from, and not neccesarily those of a western-European style one. There are plenty of proud warrior cultures from our Earth that thought nothing of eating an enemiy's heart (or other organs), and by their own way of thinking it was far from evil. You need to start thinking outside of your Euro-centric bias's; honor is just one of many things that depend on a society's perspectives. ;)
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 05:16 PM	It SPECIFICALLY states in Evermeet (pg. 109) that the Elves of Atorrnash worshipped Vhaeraun, NOT Ghaunadar. -Going by what Ka'Narlist said when he first met with Sharlario and his son, it seems to me that the "upper eschalons" of Artornash trafficked with Ghaunadaur, while the populace as a whole worshipped Vhaeraun. The Dark Elves lived in harmony with the others until the Gold Elves of Arvandaar started s__t. -Eh, it depends on what you want to call harmony! ;) Also, I have read several references that state that the Illythiir had a warrior-culture. You do not think that the Illythiiri were 'honorable' enough to be compared to Samurai? You watch too many movies. :P The REAL Samurai would have cut down an innocent peasant where he stood had he NOT gotten out of his way. You can have a system of 'honor' (Bushido) and STILL be an arrogant bastitch! -That's right, that's right. I recall reading a passage from a history book I have that cited an American soldier watching a group of Samurai slaughtering a group of pesants because they did not get off of the road they were walking down when the two Samurai passed them. -I was injected the western emphasis of honor, however.
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 05:21 PM	Official discourses in the world is not always reality, and that depend on how you defines 'evolve' in an universe with the mysterious force of magic in the factor. -Let me be more specific then. Elves do not naturally physically adapt to their surroundings over extremely long time periods, as Humans and other animals do.
Philalexandros 04-17-07, 05:38 PM	So, to sum up: Aurashnee/Lolth always had jet-black skin and white hair, per Evermeet, as did her children, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. The pre-Descent Dark Elves were dusky-skinned, which seems a fair compromise between their creator deities--Aurashnee and Corellon. After being corrupted by Lolth & minions and generally going off the deep end, a mighty High Magic spell was leveled at the Illythiiri specifically, but ended up affecting all Dark Elves equally (save for those who turned into the Sharn). Thus, the Drow were created. I guess my personal theory is that the High Magic meant to give the Illythiiri descriptions matching that of their treacherous mother-deity worked all too-well on the basis that all Dark Elves ultimately had "kinship" with Aurashnee, and thus were affected regardless of deed or alignment. Alternately, the non-corrupted, non-evil Dark Elf minority that was not transformed (and is never described as existing to begin with) was simply bred out as not distinct Dark Elf community was continued following these events.
Lord Karsus 04-17-07, 05:46 PM	Thus, the Drow were created. -That is, the Drow on Abeir-Toril. Kiaransalee, who came from Threnody, already called herself Drow, before the Descent took place, as per Evermeet: Island of Elves.
boards 04-17-07, 06:05 PM	The Dark Elves of Artonash were raiding Moon Elves to sacrafice to their gods so they were hardly living in harmony with other elves. On the colour of pre-descent Dark Elves Shalario mentions that they were as dark as Elistraee (who was described as "dark as a starless night), so saying that they must have been either VERY dark grey or black.
Mikayla 04-17-07, 06:06 PM	If I take nothing else away from this thread, I will take away the idea of a "samurai" like Dark-Elven culture. I can already picture it... "Praise be to Lolth, Matron-samma." "You have disappointed the Spider Queen, commit seppukku by falling on your whip-of-fangs immediately!" And so on. Indeed, I think I will write a book about a human explorer who accidentally finds his way into a drow civil war, and simultaneously learns their culture while playing a pivotal role in the politics that unfold. I shall call it, "Shogun"! Errr...excuse me, I meant, I shall call it "Valsharess"! :P
GothicDan 04-17-07, 06:15 PM	The Dark Elves lived in harmony with the others until the Gold Elves of Arvandaar started s__t. There are references in LEoF to Dark Elves performing evil acts before the Vyshaanti started to cause trouble. And, again, from the very author of the book you're referencing, Elaine has said that the vast majority of Gold Elves of Aryvandaar were NOT corrupt or evil, and that only the Vyshaanti were. Now, some may dispute this in light of other sources, but as of the time that novel was written, this was the assumption that Elaine was writing under.
GothicDan 04-17-07, 06:17 PM	Of course there's nothing to say that Vhaeraun and Eilistraee didn't just change their form to match their people. They may not have always looked like drow. Just a thought. There are scenes in Evermeet involving them long before the Crown Wars, though.
BrennonGoldeye 04-17-07, 08:43 PM	Alternately, the non-corrupted, non-evil Dark Elf minority that was not transformed (and is never described as existing to begin with) was simply bred out as not distinct Dark Elf community was continued following these events. They might have been a bit of the forbearers of Eaerlann. Just a little family mixing there, no blending. I swear. ;)
MarkusTay63 04-17-07, 11:34 PM	Eh, a little sacrificing and slave-taking was done by all primitive cultures, but it doesn't necessarily make them evil - even the Vikings did it (except they called them thralls, but it was the same thing). The turning point for the Dark Elves was the fires - burning forests is a BIG taboo amongst the Elves. Some of them weren't originally their fault (it was dragons sent by Arvyandaar), although they were blamed. Later, I guess they figure since they were getting blamed for it they might as well do it; at that point they fully embraced their darker side and became Lolth's. I would have to say that the Destroying entire cities, Tidal waves, Sundering the world and killing hundreds of thousands of people you never even met... NOW THATS EVIL, baby! It seems the Elves care more for trees then they do for human (and demi-human) life. Thats a little extreme if you ask me, but whatever. At least with an honest Orc you know what you are in for - no subterfuge there. ;) :P :rofl:
GothicDan 04-17-07, 11:39 PM	Eh, a little sacrificing and slave-taking was done by all primitive cultures, but it doesn't neccessarily make them evil - even the Vikings did it (except they called them thralls, but it was the same thing). And they also worshipped dark deities already. The turning point for the Dark Elves was the fires - burning forests is a BIG taboo amongst the Elves. Among other things like needless cruelty and torture and the like. Some of them weren't originally their fault (it was dragons sent by Arvyandaar), although they were blamed. Yes, and those aren't taken into account in the histories. To what are you referring, exactly? LEoF makes no indication that they were blamed for any actions made by Aryvandaari. Later, I guess they figure since they were getting blamed for it they might as well do it; at that point they fully embraced their darker side and became Lolth's. Again, LEoF gives a clear reference date for them worshipping evil deities before Aryvandaar ever made offensive strikes against the Dark Elves. I would have to say that the Destroying entire cities, Tidal waves, Sundering the world and killing hundreds of thousands of people you never even met... NOW THATS EVIL, baby! So, basically, waging large-scale war is evil by nature? I really don't think so. But then again, I'm a physicist; we made nuclear bombs... From LEoF: -18,000: Some Ilythiiri houses discover Ghaunadaur and begin venerating him in secret. In the centures that follow, rival Ilythiiri houses turn to other dark deities, such as Lolth. -17,100: The War of Three Leaves begins. Ilythiiri spies and assassins incite Syorpiir, Thearnytaar, and Eilluir into a three-sided conflict to prevent them from unifying into a single state. The first reference at all to Aryvandaar isn't until -15,300, when Coronal Ivosaar Vyshaan comes to the throne. So, before that, there was nothing of note about Aryvandaar as a nation; no particular malice, no hostility, no aggressions, no worship of fell powers. It didn't start until the Vyshaanti took the throne. And it wasn't until -13,900 that Aryvandaar actually made attacks against any other Elven nation (Miyeritar). So, the Dark Elves had fallen into the service of dark gods and were committing treacheries over 4,000 years before Aryvandaar and the Vyshaanti ever made aggressive overtures towards another Elven state.
The Ubbergeek 04-17-07, 11:57 PM	I would not be surprised if the dark elves of this times where not quite as 'boohahahah, I am DARK and EVIL!' as the official tale say... Such things are never as simple.
MarkusTay63 04-18-07, 02:38 AM	Very true, the histories WERE written by the Gold Elves, so they would be naturally biased. If you could read the Drow histories concerning that era I'm sure it would state that they were "just minding their own business when...". ;) So you are saying, Dan, that a little international espionage to get your enemies fighting amongst themselves is evil? Then I must be living in the evilist country on Earth! Destroying millions of square miles of forest, wrecking the environment... HELL! Americans ARE the Drow!!! :eek: Remember Napalm? And perhaps the rest of the world should get together and drive US underground, hmmmm? Who cares that most of the population is innocent of the crimes committed by the Gov't/military. "Kill 'em all... let god sort 'em out" - a fitting 'American' sentiment in this case. You can not blame an entire people for the crimes comitted by their rulers, if that were the case then we would all deserve to die. :(
Zanan 04-18-07, 03:40 AM	They were "evil" before the the Vyshaan took centre stage. They worshipped "dark" deities? That makes someone "evil"? You see, this debate will never cease, because there is a set standard in D&D about "good" and "evil" which we do not have in "real life". To the elves, the tactics used by the dark elves were obviously "evil". To the dark elves, they most likely were the best means of success ... why throw himself into the woods getting arrowed from the hidden elves in the treetops if you can burn the trees down, order some dragons or flying demons to go in your stead etc.? Because of some elven ethos or something? It was war and no-matter who started it, in war you want to save your skin first and spend as less resources along the way to success as possible. Is that good, or bad, or evil? I doubt anyone can tell ... and this is not a board for deeply philosophical debates on war et al. By canon lore, the dark elves "became evil" due to worshipping evil deities, much like the Vyshaan later on. One "evil" thing does not balance the other or make it any less in-game evil. We should leave it at that.
Philalexandros 04-18-07, 06:20 PM	Very true, the histories WERE written by the Gold Elves, so they would be naturally biased. If you could read the Drow histories concerning that era I'm sure it would state that they were "just minding their own business when...". ;) Not correct. The timelines shown in the FRCS and LEoF are NOT written from a race-specific viewpoint. The material clearly differentiates between what is fact (that is, designer-to-DM information) and what is asserted by the game's protagonists. You can not blame an entire people for the crimes comitted by their rulers, if that were the case then we would all deserve to die. :( That's not the case here, though. What you have is the steady corruption of a society over a period of thousands of years. Bottom line before the Dark Disaster ever gave the Illythiiri an excuse for depravity, Lolth's church was in prominence, and the conduct of their own wars in large part centered on corrupt, demon-granted magic and razing entire realms. This was before Malkizid appeared before the Vyshaan, BTW.
Philalexandros 04-18-07, 06:28 PM	They were "evil" before the the Vyshaan took centre stage. They worshipped "dark" deities? That makes someone "evil"? You see, this debate will never cease, because there is a set standard in D&D about "good" and "evil" which we do not have in "real life". What makes the larger part of the Illythiiri in their late stages evil is precisely the direct data given to us by the latest books. Participation in a fantasy game based on an imaginary world requires a level of suspension of disbelief, Zanan. Nothing prohibits you from adapting the Realms to suit your tastes, but canon rarely deals with tastes. To the elves, the tactics used by the dark elves were obviously "evil". To the dark elves, they most likely were the best means of success ... why throw himself into the woods getting arrowed from the hidden elves in the treetops if you can burn the trees down, order some dragons or flying demons to go in your stead etc.? Because of some elven ethos or something? Unfortunately, the methods of the Illythiiri were not merely directed toward gaining a tactical advantage as you describe. It's no accident that the Illythiiri began razing realms and using demon-magic after Wendonai came. The Vyshaan themselves did not commit to the Dark Disaster until after Malkizid's arrival. The difference here is that the Illythiiri as a society held Lolth's church as preeminent. They espoused such ethos. By canon lore, the dark elves "became evil" due to worshipping evil deities, much like the Vyshaan later on. One "evil" thing does not balance the other or make it any less in-game evil. We should leave it at that. Where this debate is concerned, the point is that the former embraced open worship of evil deities and repugnant methods of warfare. The latter were led by corrupted rulers but nonetheless continued worshipping good deities.
GothicDan 04-18-07, 06:35 PM	Thank you, Phil. :)
Philalexandros 04-18-07, 07:04 PM	The Friend of Alexander stands by your side, Dan. I'll not stand for that subversive Drow propaganda! ;)
The Ubbergeek 04-18-07, 07:44 PM	The Friend of Alexander stands by your side, Dan. I'll not stand for that subversive Drow propaganda! ;) But he felt for Elf propaganda! :P ;)
Philalexandros 04-18-07, 07:53 PM	You dare call the blessed words of Baker, Bonny and Stout propaganda!?! :D
GothicDan 04-18-07, 07:58 PM	I'm not even a fan of Baker's work, usually, and I'm referencing the stuff. ;)
Philalexandros 04-18-07, 08:00 PM	Given that he's afflicted you with an allergy to the word "Malkizid," I can't say I blame you! :P
GothicDan 04-18-07, 08:19 PM	Ack, now I have hives!!
MarkusTay63 04-18-07, 08:43 PM	In the real world, we don't have monsters... at least not the kind you find in a fantasy setting. That being said, I don't think you would be alowed to kill another sentient creature here unless it tried to harm you first (self defense). In FR, a farmer who catches a Drow Elf crossing his field and puts a pitchfork through 'it' will be hailed as the local hero... even if that poor Elf just happened to be Drizzt Do'Urden. The sad part is, most people don't even try to reason with the other side. Case in point - In Thesk, many of the Orcs left behind by the Zhents after the Tuigen war stayed on, living amongst the humans who considered them heroes! When bandits out of Tammar began attacking caravans and demanding tribute, it was the ORCS of Phent and Phsant that went and ousted the bandits, being held once again as heroes (read the entries for those cities in UE). Another case - It is the Dark Elves of the Promenade that are one of the few good power groups within Skullport. Although it may seem strange, this is one of the few places where a human will run to the Drow for help aginst fellow humans (or Dwarves, or Illithids, etc...) I'm not saying that Drow are not evil, I'm just pointing out that no one is beyond redemption. Saying that all of the Illythiir were evil because they chose to worship lolth is just plain wrong. I'm sure she didn't approach them as evil, but rather slyly tricked them with whispered promises and half-truths. Lolth is a corruptor, that is what she does. She spent millenium as a Demon-queen so she knows all the ins and outs when it comes to tricking mortals down the dark path. Do you think any of the male Illythiiri would have chosen to follow Lolth if they could see how it was going to turn out for them? Vhaerun worshippers in Cormanthor ally with surface Elves aginst lolth worshippers! I'm not saying that that makes them good, but at least even they know the greater evil. And, of course, there was that kingdom in the forest of Mir that was minding it's own business until they helped Calimshan and the Aranea (?!) defeat the beholders. As soon as the Elves of Tethir became aware of them they attacked and destroyed their capitol. So we have surface Elves attacking and killing innocent (no crime commited) Drow just because they were Drow. In this country we call that murder, but in FR it seems to be A-Okay to do just that. It's high time that the 'dark' races band together and demand legislation gauranteeing them equal rights in human courts! Why is it okay for adventurers to sneak into a Metalic Dragon's lair and kill it and steal it's treasure? If the dragon only ate game from the forest and never attacked human settlements? Technically, the adventurers would NOT get in any trouble. Thats not realistic! I remember reading something recently about a (good) dragon who was trying to get the courts of Waterdeep to prosecute the murderer of his mate, but was running into a stonewall do to Dragon's having no legal rights. I thought that it was rather funny at the time, but in retrospect I keep thinking how the dragon must feel. Adventurers are nothing more then brutal vigilantes, and someone has to put a stop to it! This isn't the seventies anymore, games have matured, and along with it so should the values. People should be faced with moral dilemas, not just a bunch of HP values scribbled on a piece of paper and asked to roll dice. Think people... FR has evolved into a living breathing world for most of us, and it looks like most Dark Elves are getting tired of being 'dark'. just my :twocents:
GothicDan 04-18-07, 08:51 PM	Markus, you're a really good propagandist... It's sad that most people care so little about actual facts and logic that they'd be stirred up by such words and nothing else. :( Note that I'm not saying that I don't necessarily disagree with everything you're saying. I'd just prefer it people used logic over 'passion' to get their points across. Because passion can always be turned the other way. EDIT: When I'm not feeling so ADHD, I'll reply more later. I DO think that the world you describe is a nice, idealistic place, but I don't think it's very realistic. One of my best friends recently said, "You know, racism really isn't as astonishing as people make it out to be." He didn't mean that he's racist, or supports it, but that the rise of racism isn't exactly unnatural or shocking, which is one of the reasons it's been so hard to reverse.
The Ubbergeek 04-18-07, 08:54 PM	Most drow are nasty things - the traditional Llothite society and many of the alternative cultures are dark, violent rules. You lives or dies, and become less good of course to survive... But there is always a rare exception. Now, 'rare' is the key point. They are few and few. Be wary but never keep the idea affar.... of course, since its a feudalistic, middle-agian setting, prejudices abound. It's a dark place.
Philalexandros 04-18-07, 09:04 PM	I'm not saying that Drow are not evil, I'm just pointing out that no one is beyond redemption. The possibility of redemption is not the topic of discussion, though. One can be evil and yet have a chance to turn away from it. Saying that all of the Illythiir were evil because they chose to worship lolth is just plain wrong. No one said that, though. The argument being made is that, over a period of eight thousand years (and bear in mind that our own collective human memory can barely account for 6,000 woefully incomplete years), actual supernatural/divine entities corrupted their society to the point where the majority of the population was, in fact, evil. That's not wrong or unrealistic in the context of a fantasy game. What is unrealistic is trying to impose the limitations and capacities our world imposes on us to these story elements. I'm sure she didn't approach them as evil, but rather slyly tricked them with whispered promises and half-truths. Lolth is a corruptor, that is what she does. She spent millenium as a Demon-queen so she knows all the ins and outs when it comes to tricking mortals down the dark path. Corruption is a theme that has been repeatedly pointed at in this thread, and specifically qualified in the LEoF timelines. Nonetheless, this does not change the fact that the Illythiiri as a people (with some exceptions, mind you) did, in fact, turn to evil. Do you think any of the male Illythiiri would have chosen to follow Lolth if they could see how it was going to turn out for them? Vhaerun worshippers in Cormanthor ally with surface Elves aginst lolth worshippers! I'm not saying that that makes them good, but at least even they know the greater evil. This is what I call "apples and oranges." At the end of the day, societal indoctrination definitely plays a role in one's beliefs but you can only excuse a creature's conduct so far. The literature of FR has shown clearly that, regardless of their level of belief in the propaganda that calls "faeries" evil, Drow do, in fact, enjoy activities that include murder, torture, and worse. The Illythiiri had to evolve to such a state, that much is true, but they reached it all the same. They created things that were, I quote, "of such vile nature that even the drow of today hesitate to use them." In other locales, "horrific ritual sacrifices of enemy captives" took place. Beyond that, I can only offer a :D to the remaining paragraphs.
BrennonGoldeye 04-18-07, 09:07 PM	But he felt for Elf propaganda! :P ;) Sorry, I thought this was a totally different kind of felt... Thank you, Phil. :) The Friend of Alexander stands by your side, Dan. I'll not stand for that subversive Drow propaganda! ;) Hmmm. Friends don't let friends pizoff Zanan. I'll think I'll find a very deep cave to hide in... .....:doh:....Yes mistress....they are just up the passageway....yes....quite so ma'am...well I don't think I have ever heard Rothe used as a verb but they will be just up and to your left....remember the DKI contract on permanent damage to posters........oh nevermind........
Zanan 04-19-07, 04:05 AM	Where this debate is concerned, the point is that the former embraced open worship of evil deities and repugnant methods of warfare. The latter were led by corrupted rulers but nonetheless continued worshipping good deities. To all previuous parts: That is what we are told. To the above quotation: you go by the same black & white ethos that is the basis of D&D, "good" and "evil". Repugnant methods of warfare? Repugnant to whom? Being arrowed instead from the treetop hideouts? Now, I wonder when we will hear about the human methods of driving elves out of their homes when the former became the ruling race of surface Faerūn. One would guess that had they had the ability to summon demons and dragons and "vile" stuff with high magic, epic magic and the like in a manner the dark elves could, they would not have hesitated. Yet, neither the humans who did nor the suns who commited the Dark Disaster (and other niceties such as the large scale mating with demons to create the fey'ri) faced the same repercussions like the dark elves. Obviously some moral weakness on various parts. No wonder the elves were harrassed out of Faerūn not that long after ... Anyway ... the dark elves were meant to become drow ... or rather, a good story was needed to make them become drow and we got one. If one likes to indulge on those bits and pieces and create a feasible history, fair enough. IMHO, we have (as with any incomplete history) a large puzzle yet to be completed and I hesitate to pretend that all is oh so easy to explain. But this debate has been done to death before and my Kiaransaleen lass isn't anywhere around to raise it again. Brennon Hmmm. Friends don't let friends pizoff Zanan. I'll think I'll find a very deep cave to hide in... Deep caves are not good a spot to hide from drow, you know. In any case, Will saves and DR / anti-drow propaganda hav been built up over the years (not least to GD's attentions), so don't worry about that.
GothicDan 04-19-07, 08:37 AM	In any case, Will saves and DR / anti-drow propaganda hav been built up over the years (not least to GD's attentions), so don't worry about that. We don't need any anti-propaganda when we're given their alignments as NE/CE. ;)
Lord Karsus 04-19-07, 09:24 AM	Now, I wonder when we will hear about the human methods of driving elves out of their homes when the former became the ruling race of surface Faerūn. One would guess that had they had the ability to summon demons and dragons and "vile" stuff with high magic, epic magic and the like in a manner the dark elves could, they would not have hesitated. -That's the difference between the two, however. Dark Elves/Drow did not hesitate to do so, while the rest of the Fair Folk wouldn't resort to such methods, no matter what the costs. Though there many be a couple of individual exceptions, this is a general rule of thumb, as demonstrated by, well, history.
Zanan 04-19-07, 09:50 AM	We don't need any anti-propaganda when we're given their alignments as NE/CE. ;) Weren't we talking about pre-Descent dark elves? :P Only a "few" of them were nasty and mean and evil ... same with the Vyshaan. The dark elves back then were just faster and smoother :D Fey'ri creators aside, there is actually evidence that the "fairy" (what fairy?) elves are not all treeloving chaps. Just re-read Elminster in Myth Drannor, or Last Mythal - Realms of the Elves' Staff of Valmaxian.
Renvale999 04-19-07, 09:55 AM	-That's the difference between the two, however. Dark Elves/Drow did not hesitate to do so, while the rest of the Fair Folk wouldn't resort to such methods, no matter what the costs. Though there many be a couple of individual exceptions, this is a general rule of thumb, as demonstrated by, well, history. Okay, so I've only read the last page of this thread, so please don't flame me, I got that too much over on the D&D boards... But from what I've read, the elves in the crown wars are not the same elves we have today...after reading LEOF (Now mind you I have Evermeet the novel, but I haven't had a chance to read it), but in that book, all sides seemed to be resorting to awful tactics, not to mention that they were killing their own kind in the pursuit of power...it's the just the dark elves embraced (with the help of Lolth) the dark side of war and fell...but that doesn't change the fact that the elves nowadays don't talk about the Crown Wars because they were all ashamed...had I been Corellion, I would have punished all of them, not just the dark elves...mind you the dark elves should get it the most, but they were not the only ones to blame. I think the elven race as a whole should have been punished, not just the dark elves.
Lord Karsus 04-19-07, 06:20 PM	Okay, so I've only read the last page of this thread, so please don't flame me, I got that too much over on the D&D boards... :mage: ;) But from what I've read, the elves in the crown wars are not the same elves we have today...after reading LEOF -Physically, they are, as Elves don't evolve. Of course, lots of things have happened that have changed everyone's outlooks on how the world works, but asides for that, the Elves of then are as much Elves as the Humans of, say, Ancient Mesopotamia were Human. (Now mind you I have Evermeet the novel, but I haven't had a chance to read it) -Good book. I recommend reading it as soon as possible! I think the elven race as a whole should have been punished, not just the dark elves. -Now, why should the Lythari be punished? What did they do? :P
MarkusTay63 04-19-07, 06:55 PM	Not correct. The timelines shown in the FRCS and LEoF are NOT written from a race-specific viewpoint. The material clearly differentiates between what is fact (that is, designer-to-DM information) and what is asserted by the game's protagonists.Ah... there's the rub. :smirk: We do not have Elves or dark Elves in the RW writing our sourcebooks, we have authors. Since Mr.Salvatore has brought Driizt forth into this world, there are a hundred million fanboys wanting to be him. So for better or worse, our most auspicious author has changed peoples mindsets. When I used to play greyhawk, I would be the first in line to kill some Drow, because THERE WERE NO GOOD DROW! But things have changed, times have changed. Even one of the vilest Drow mages of Menzoberranzan, the brother of the matron mother herself, Gromph Baenre, would like to see Lolth's rule come to an end. It was his daughter that accidently gave the gift to the Drow of having their powers work on the surface. The rulebooks have a feat that allow them to adapt to daylight. That's it... the curse no longer matters. They don't need to stay underground anymore. Jarlaxle was able to travel about on the surface originally because he posed as Driizt, and people having heard of Driizt didn't try to kill him immediately. It was pointed out in one of the Hunter's Blade books that Driizt himself was growing worried, because surface people were no longer attacking Drow on sight thanks to him. The times, they are a' changin' Getting back to authors, since that was where I was going before I began to ramble. Human authors are the closest thing we have to actual FR historians, so that THEIR preconceptions and predjudices rub off in what they write. Recently, in this thread or some other, George Krashos stated that "Drow are evil, end of story". :confused: And you expect him to write something that isn't skewed from the point of the oh-so-holy surface Elves? Let Zanan or I or someone else who actually likes the Drow to write their history, and you would see a brand new veiwpoint of those same events. History is written by the winners, or in this case, by the guys at WotC. What they FEEL becomes reality in our little playground. You see this MOST clearly in the WotSQ series. Before I go on, let me just say that I enjoyed each book seperately and they were very well written. however, they were totally incompatible from author to author. It almost seemed to me that the authors were fighting over who would be the coolest character, with each book focusing on a different one, and then that character being pushed aside for the next author's favorite. What is that expression about too many cooks? Hmmmm? ;) They build up a heroic Zaknafein-type in Ryld Argith, and then kill him in a most un-auspicious manor. Pharaun Mizzrym was probably the coolest Drow character since Jarlaxle, and he was killed off almost as an after thought. I swear, it almost seemed like spite on the author's part (it served absolutely NO purpose). This is what happens when you have people writing lore for FR and they have strong feelings about certain things - it shows up in their writing. To give them immense credit, both R.A. Salvatore and Elaine Cunningham have done believable Drow characters, both GOOD and EVIL. Thats not easy to do, to write flowery words about something you hate, or disparaging ones about things you like. Kudos to them both (and no, I'm not a driizt fanboy, I can barely tolerate the bugger anymore). You say that the Drow, as a race, are evil. In almost every gaming group I come across one out of every five characters are Drow. Not all are good, mind you, but they live on the surface and travel around with adventurers. The world is off balance, and somethings got to give. According to canon, running across a dark Elf living on the surface is almost as rare as meeting the Terrasque, yet their are millions of them running around in FR campaigns all over our real world. Either go back to the old days when they were just 'monsters', or bring them fully into the fold. You can't have both. BTW, I do not allow PC Drow in my games, all Drow are evil, and I've yet to run one stinking encounter with them in any FR adventure I've DM'd. I used to use them every so often in GH though, because at least back then I knew what they were. ;)
Lord Karsus 04-19-07, 07:24 PM	Even one of the vilest Drow mages of Menzoberranzan, the uncle of the matron mother herself, Gromph Baenre, would like to see Lolth's rule come to an end. It was his daughter that accidently gave the gift to the Drow of having their powers work on the surface. -Gromph is Triel's brother, not uncle. Him, Triel and Quenthel are all siblings.
MarkusTay63 04-19-07, 08:02 PM	Okay, I thought he was the original matron Mother's brother, but you're right, I remember now. Thanks for that, I actually had brother first, but changed it to uncle, I should have just left it.
Lord Karsus 04-19-07, 08:48 PM	Okay, I thought he was the original matron Mother's brother, but you're right, I remember now. Thanks for that, I actually had brother first, but changed it to uncle, I should have just left it. -Yeah, I hate second-guessing myself. As far as we know, the elder Matron Baenre, Yvonnel (Sp?) had no siblings (or none that were living, since she was quite old).
MarkusTay63 04-19-07, 09:11 PM	She probably killed them all. She did have lots of kids though....
The Ubbergeek 04-19-07, 11:20 PM	markus.... as someone said in the dumpshock forum (a famous Shadowrun place) One thing that peoples often miss is that the adventurers are not the norm. they are oddballs, they are special. Different. The poster gave the example of Awakened (the ones able to use magic) characters as someone bemoaned that his players where mostly so - and there is a very low % of Awakened peoples, 1-2% in general. He answered that it don't have to be the case for your group. Why, by example, can't a group of pc be formed around the theme, say by example, of 'monster hunters' awakened guys who work as a team? Adventurers are oddbals, and such peoples may find the path of adventurers (or shadowruners in his case) a logical path, As a dm, if the players make a band of, say... eilistraenite good drow - and especially if they all have a good reason in background to band together, I should not say no really unless it go really against the presented adventure's theme and all. NPC drow are mostly evil guys. But your characters don't have to be. And it's not a bad thing.
DojiHoturi 04-20-07, 12:27 AM	All the dark elves were transformed with the magic of Corellon because the ritual was corrupted. This was specifically stated with no mention of who actually corrupted the magic. Corellon's intent was only to get the truly 'evil' ones. He was disturbed by the result of his actions so much so that I think that might be why he chose not to punish the offending Vyshan sun elves in a similar manner, for fear of punishing the innocent. And so what if 1 in 5 PCs you come across is a Drow. The whole point is that the PCs are special. Now when you bump into 1 in 5 NPCs being a Drow, then you have a problem. Get over yourselves about a race being 'all evil'. It never says so in the books, it merely mentions frequency and trend. There are some 'magical' creatures that are listed as 'always' a certain alignment, but even those have exceptions. And considering the histories given, there is plenty of argument to allow for neutral and good Drow. BTW, I really like the idea of Samurai culture for the Pre-descent dark elves, as well. There was plenty of dirty deeds in Japanese politics of the era. The key in 'Honor' in that culture was almost purely based on the appearance of being honorable. The actual Japanese term is 'On' which more literally translate into 'Face'. If you were able to stab your enemy in the back and keep your hands clean in the process, no one would question the action. The caste system under Bushido would be fitting as well. Thank you for getting back on topic :) Doji
Zanan 04-20-07, 04:35 AM	A few points here ... - the ritual was not corrupted (at least not officially), it was just a bit too much for the high magi and priests to cast (not the first and not the last, see LEoF) - Liriel "thought" she did the "drow can use magic on the surface" stuff, but I think I'm a matron mother too, every Friday between 14.45 and 15.00 that is ;) - the "coolest" drow characters and most likely the best portraits of male and female drow IMHO were Valas Hune and Danifae (and before her Malice) - Evermeet ... you have to read a number of chapters of that book with the proverbial pinch of salt - information-wise. That said, the Drizzt novels would require barrow loads of said mineral occasionally. Which is not to say that they are bad, they just go a little astray when it comes to history, rules and lore.
Lord Karsus 04-20-07, 10:16 AM	- Liriel "thought" she did the "drow can use magic on the surface" stuff, but I think I'm a matron mother too, every Friday between 14.45 and 15.00 that is ;) -It's still the best explanation we have. - Evermeet ... you have to read a number of chapters of that book with the proverbial pinch of salt - information-wise. -Danillo is a good bard. I'm sure that he didn't give us bad information.
Philalexandros 04-20-07, 02:43 PM	We do not have Elves or dark Elves in the RW writing our sourcebooks, we have authors. Correct. And if we call to question the data they give us as impartial authors, well... we have to question everything. When the truth has been uncertain, the FR products have indicated thus. The issues I cite are not mired in uncertainty. They are stated as fact (as opposed to, say, what happened with the cursing ritual aimed at the dark elves). Since Mr.Salvatore has brought Driizt forth into this world, there are a hundred million fanboys wanting to be him. ... The times, they are a' changin' I'm really not sure what the above has to do with what I said (that portion you chose to cite, that is). Getting back to authors, since that was where I was going before I began to ramble. Human authors are the closest thing we have to actual FR historians, so that THEIR preconceptions and predjudices rub off in what they write. Recently, in this thread or some other, George Krashos stated that "Drow are evil, end of story". :confused: And you expect him to write something that isn't skewed from the point of the oh-so-holy surface Elves? No offense, but you're focusing on the exception rather than the rule. Drizzt is special precisely because he is so UN-Drow. Kymil Nimesin's conspiracy was such a horrible shock to elves precisely because he was a noble Gold Elf. Elven societies, again, using the FACTS given by the books, are populated by a majority of good or neutral individuals. Drow societies are populated by a massively overwhelming majority of evil individuals. The 15% of non-evil Drow are outsiders and pariahs to their own kind and are generally loners or in small bands. Beyond that, if you are going to cite someone, I would encourage you to include the entirety of their statement and the context under which it was made. Let Zanan or I or someone else who actually likes the Drow to write their history, and you would see a brand new veiwpoint of those same events. But you would be operating under the constraints and bias of taste, and not canon facts. History is written by the winners, or in this case, by the guys at WotC. What they FEEL becomes reality in our little playground. This is rather immaterial. You might not *like* that the Drow are predominately evil in the FR, but that doesn't change it from being canon. There is no "fair," by the way. FR is an imaginary world based on the ideas and fantasies of a few individuals. Complaining about who is depicted as a villain is like complaining about Ares being labeled as a blood-thirsty killer in the Iliad. Ares just is. As far as your gaming group, goes, I would simply say that your DM might have ideas that differ from canon, or, and this would be unfortunate, he doesn't have the pull to maintain the established view of the Realms. NOTE, though, that I have no problem with this. If your DM WANTED to, he could have it however he wished.
Philalexandros 04-20-07, 02:45 PM	LK, Quenthel is not Gromph's sibling, technically. She was adopted by House Baenre.
Zanan 04-20-07, 04:46 PM	-It's still the best explanation we have.. Nope. People like to forget that while drow in the Underdark did and do wear their own, specially treated / manufactured stuff, they are and were always able to craft (or buy) and wear and wield normal magic stuff too. And one would guess that this wouldn't look much different to the untrained eye, i.e. much drow-elven in design. As for spellcasting, one rather well known scimitar-wielder used his racial magics long before Liriel made her first encounters with the sun-lit lands. -Danillo is a good bard. I'm sure that he didn't give us bad information. Bards? Probably the last people I would trust telling the truth. :D
Zanan 04-20-07, 04:49 PM	LK, Quenthel is not Gromph's sibling, technically. She was adopted by House Baenre. Quenthel is the youngest daughter of the late Yvonnel Baenre, as is said in the Menzoberranzan box as well as the Dragon 302, giving her most recent stats.
The Ubbergeek 04-20-07, 05:15 PM	And the drow are not the only craftmen of the Underdark... I bet the Duergar items are as well-looked, and surely the Svirfneblin things too (if much rarer and harder to get).
Philalexandros 04-20-07, 05:49 PM	Quenthel is the youngest daughter of the late Yvonnel Baenre, as is said in the Menzoberranzan box as well as the Dragon 302, giving her most recent stats. Why the heck did I think she was adopted? :confused:
MarkusTay63 04-20-07, 06:35 PM	Correct. And if we call to question the data they give us as impartial authors, well... we have to question everything. When the truth has been uncertain, the FR products have indicated thus. The issues I cite are not mired in uncertainty. They are stated as fact (as opposed to, say, what happened with the cursing ritual aimed at the dark elves).In 3e, I suppose I would have to agree with you. It's one of the reasons why I prefer the 'older style' of presenting information - told third hand by an FR native who is "almost positive" of his facts. Some people might not have liked that 50% of the information began with "Some scholars believe...", but that gave us, as DMs, quite a bit of lee-way in how we saw our Realms. I would have to agree nowadays it's pretty much Black & White (no pun intended). No offense, but you're focusing on the exception rather than the rule. Drizzt is special precisely because he is so UN-Drow. Kymil Nimesin's conspiracy was such a horrible shock to elves precisely because he was a noble Gold Elf. Elven societies, again, using the FACTS given by the books, are populated by a majority of good or neutral individuals. Drow societies are populated by a massively overwhelming majority of evil individuals. The 15% of non-evil Drow are outsiders and pariahs to their own kind and are generally loners or in small bands.You've made a good point here, and I'll have to agree again. Unfortunately, we usually hear about the exceptions because they make for good characters - no one wants to read about someone who acts 'normal'. Beyond that, if you are going to cite someone, I would encourage you to include the entirety of their statement and the context under which it was made.Once again, I agree. I thought twice about posting that, because I don't even remember which thread it was in. In my defense, his comment just rubbed me the wrong way at the time. I know it's silly, considering that Drow don't really exist, but it just sounded to much like predjudice to me. After reading the mish-mosh the authors made out of the character's personalities in the WotSQ, I've been very thin-skinned about pre-conceptions. My bad. But you would be operating under the constraints and bias of taste, and not canon facts.My point exactly. There is an excellent set of fairy tales out that tell the stories from the monster's perspective, and they are highly received (author=Gregory Maguire). Sometimes, it's not the story, but how you tell it that matters. ;) As far as your gaming group, goes, I would simply say that your DM might have ideas that differ from canon, or, and this would be unfortunate, he doesn't have the pull to maintain the established view of the Realms. NOTE, though, that I have no problem with this. If your DM WANTED to, he could have it however he wished.I AM the DM. :D That was my point. My Drow are evil, as they should be; Driizt and Liriel are aberrations. My Drow are old school, like me, and behave the way they did back in GH. They attack on sight, and don't try to talk or make nice. They aren't nearly as sneaky and underhanded as the FR Drow, but they are somewhat more socially cohesive (they aren't all out to kill each other). When I read the histories, they don't make a whole lot of sense. Given their attitudes in FR, how is it they EVER got along long enough to war with ANYBODY? I run my Drow a little less sociopathic and more xenophobic. But I haven't done a Drow encounter in FR yet, because my way of looking at them is off enough from FR lore that I don't bother with them. When I defend the Drow, it's from the perspective of what I have read in the sourcebooks. It seems to me, anyway, that they have gotten a raw deal. The original Drow were cursed for siding with Lolth when she waged war on the Seldarine, and for THAT they would have deserved their fate. Now the curse is chalked up to an unfortunate 'accident'? Corellon looked on, and his eyes bulged when he saw what happened with the power he gave the high-magi, then quickly looked both ways and backed away slowly "I wasn't even here... I didn't see a thing...". Just seems a little less spectacular then "They made war on the gods". But whatever, I just like defending the underdog, that's my schtick. :P
Philalexandros 04-20-07, 07:01 PM	Well, hey, that's cool Markus. :) Regarding the Drow social structure in the FR, I would imagine they're able to go from killing each other to joining up for common purposes because of the theocratic leanings of so many of their states.
Lord Karsus 04-20-07, 09:29 PM	And one would guess that this wouldn't look much different to the untrained eye, i.e. much drow-elven in design. -Eh...The best example I can use would be the movie versions of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. It is pretty easy to tell the difference between, say, Dwarven-crafted arms, Human-crafted arms, and Elven-crafted arms. Now, LotR isn't FR, but it's the best visual comparison I can think of. As for spellcasting, one rather well known scimitar-wielder used his racial magics long before Liriel made her first encounters with the sun-lit lands. -Never heard of that guy. Tell me more, as I am intrigued...;) Bards? Probably the last people I would trust telling the truth. :D -You know, actually, that is an interesting point. Sometime soon, I'm going to ask Elaine about that: Can everything written in Evermeet: Island of Elves be trusted, since it was written by Danillo, who is Human and can obviously err. Though we're supposed to take all that as canon, it'll be interesting to hear what she says.
boards 04-21-07, 04:07 AM	Doesnt the start of the book say that the elven scribes who are reading it before he gives it to Arilyn will change any parts that they dont want the outside world to know. So it most likely isnt entirely accurate.
GothicDan 04-21-07, 05:48 PM	Now the curse is chalked up to an unfortunate 'accident'? Corellon looked on, and his eyes bulged when he saw what happened with the power he gave the high-magi, then quickly looked both ways and backed away slowly "I wasn't even here... I didn't see a thing...". Just seems a little less spectacular then "They made war on the gods". So then what is your less spectacular explanation for how the ritual went so awry as to actually be MORE powerful than what the casting high magi had intended? And please, try to take into account ALL of the printed canon facts. ;) I think my Lolth-interfering idea is the best, personally. Not just because I made it up, and certainly not because I LIKE admitting that Lolth may have had the power to do it, BUT more importantly, because it takes into account much of the stated lore and characterization of the deities (alignments of BOTH, portfolios of BOTH, etc.) AND the Elves involved. That's how I like to explain things - making things as cohesive as possible with all printed lore.
Lord Karsus 04-21-07, 07:53 PM	Doesnt the start of the book say that the elven scribes who are reading it before he gives it to Arilyn will change any parts that they dont want the outside world to know. So it most likely isnt entirely accurate. -I scanned the Danillo's introduction, and I didn't find that, but I do vaguely recall him, or someone else, mentioning that. -However, which version do we have- the "corrected" tome, or the original draft? ;)
Old Sage 04-21-07, 08:32 PM	Re: Danilo's work on Evermeet As Elaine said, back in Feb. '04 - "First, thanks for the kind words. Organizing material for Evermeet was quite a project. My goal was to review every significant reference to elven lore in the Realms, and to synthesize as much of it as possible into story form. There are many ways this could be done, but I decided to organize the material around three concepts: 1) the book as a collection of short stories gathered by a human bard who wished to pay tribute to his half-elven love; 2) the narrator's view that the current-day events -- the invasion of Evermeet -- was a result of elven attitudes and decisions; and 3) a history of the Moonflower family, with Amlaruil as the focal character. These somewhat disparate parts were unified by the underlying, and often unseen, perspective of the fictional "author." Danilo had an axe to grind. He selected the stories and shaped the narrative accordingly. It was an interesting experiment, but in the process I learned something rather distressing: Danilo is a better writer than I am."
Lord Karsus 04-21-07, 08:50 PM	-That still doesn't really answer the question though- Just how accurate was Danillo's research? Theoretically, the Elves he interviewed could have been feeding him bad information, and the tomes from Candlekeep could have been incorrect as well. I know that I am reading too much into all of this, as the novel is supposed to be taken as canon, but it's still a very tantilizing idea. Imagine- everything we've been taking as fact was actually fiction. Danillo's research led him to conclude that the Elves fled a cataclysm from Tintageer, but what would happen this research was based on an old tales that Elven mothers used to tell their children when it was time for reverie? Eh, don't mind me now, I'm just blabbering. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator
MarkusTay63 04-22-07, 03:47 PM	I think my Lolth-interfering idea is the best, personally. Not just because I made it up, and certainly not because I LIKE admitting that Lolth may have had the power to do it, BUT more importantly, because it takes into account much of the stated lore and characterization of the deities (alignments of BOTH, portfolios of BOTH, etc.) AND the Elves involved. That's how I like to explain things - making things as cohesive as possible with all printed lore.Not too shabby, but how about a compromise? I'm sure Lolth had her claws sunk deep into the Illythiiri by the end of the Crown Wars, but I don't think she even predicted or would have wanted the Dark Elves 'banished' (although that did help her retain control in the long-run). So let's say this - The Dark Elves had become so TAINTED by Lolth's evil (amongst others), that when DIVINE magic was applied to them it had a 'wild magic' effect. It may have even been partly the fault of Wendonai, having somehow attached 'fiendish' shakles upon their souls and somehow altering the 'good' magic of the Seldarine? I just re-read that section of the LEoF, and you know, I think both sides are seeing a slightly skewed picture. It specifically states that the destruction of Miyeritar drove the Illythiiri nuts, and although they had been going down an evil path for quite awhile, it was the actions "within the four decades of the dark Disaster" that specifically DAMNED them. So there we have it - The Illythiiri and the Vyshaantar were EQUALLY evil up to that point, but in those final four decades they literarly made it 'Hell on Earth' for the other Elven races. Sort of mob mentality meets Hanibal Lector. ;) I can understand now, and it also states that the Seldarine 'withdrew' for a time. I read that as 'denying divine favor' for a brief period (no spells), which would have been a terrible punishment to creatures like Elves. Even if it was only for a year, I can live with this; the Seldarine WERE mad at BOTH sides in the end.
Philalexandros 04-22-07, 07:11 PM	Markus, I'm sorry, but your above information is not accurate. To begin with, the idea you cite comes not from the objective, *fact*-driven timeline given at the beginning of the chapter, but from the *viewpoint* given by the "Saga of Woe." Furthermore, that piece says exactly the opposite of what you claimed--that, while the Illythiiri claimed that Miyeritar drove them to darkness, it was in fact envy that sent them to total damnation.
Old Sage 04-22-07, 07:33 PM	-That still doesn't really answer the question though- Just how accurate was Danillo's research? Theoretically, the Elves he interviewed could have been feeding him bad information, and the tomes from Candlekeep could have been incorrect as well.That's entirely possible. As Elaine said, Evermeet is "a collection of short stories gathered by a human bard." Now, 'tis likely that Danilo wouldn't have had regular access to ALL the information he desired regarding important events in elven history. Like most bards, he likely would've based his tales on rumors, hearsay, idle speculation, and the odd few facts that he'd managed to discover on his own. That doesn't necessarily make his research inaccurate, though it probably couldn't be categorised as completely accurate either -- it is simply one facet of a much deeper truth. And there's obviously plenty of Danilo-bias within the tales themselves -- "He selected the stories and shaped the narrative accordingly" -- which tells us that he largely made use of whatever information he felt would support his own narrator's view on the stories. It may be more worthwhile to consider Evermeet as simply one attempt, made by an "outsider", to record important aspects and events of/in elven history -- though NOT the officially elven-derived attempt.
MarkusTay63 04-23-07, 01:01 AM	Markus, I'm sorry, but your above information is not accurate. To begin with, the idea you cite comes not from the objective, *fact*-driven timeline given at the beginning of the chapter, but from the *viewpoint* given by the "Saga of Woe." Furthermore, that piece says exactly the opposite of what you claimed--that, while the Illythiiri claimed that Miyeritar drove them to darkness, it was in fact envy that sent them to total damnation.What's a "Saga of Woe"? :confused: I thought I was reading the LEoF, but now you guys are saying that parts of that are wrong? I'm through compromising... Gold Elves SUCK, Drow rock!!! end of story................. :pbbbtt:
Zanan 04-23-07, 03:30 AM	Furthermore, that piece says exactly the opposite of what you claimed--that, while the Illythiiri claimed that Miyeritar drove them to darkness, it was in fact envy that sent them to total damnation. What? Envy? Is that your opinion? Another Saga of Woe?
MarkusTay63 04-23-07, 03:57 AM	LOL, I had to read it again, for the fourth time, before I was able to figure out what you were talking about Phil. I kept skipping that little 'introduction' part. :rofl: Since I've only read the Italics for the first time, obviously NONE of my opinions were based off that. Like I've been saying, I read everything, from Cormanthor, to the Dark Elven entry in LoD, and little tidbits stashed away in MANY other books, and the original DotU, and I still feel that they were provoked, and over-reacted. What was so bad that the rest of the Elves weren't already doing during the FIRST Crown War (ya know, the one the Dark Elves had NOTHING to do with)?! Killing other Elves? They were ALL doing that, except for maybe Keltormir. They were killing them in a mean spirited fashion, instead of smiling while they did it? Perhaps they forgot to apologize after killing another Elf; I know those wooonderful <dripping sarcasm> Gold Elves were surely doing that! Oh Wait! Now I remember, THEY KILLED TREES! That was it... killing other Elves is just all in a Days work (for an Elf), but burning down a forest is tantemont to SACRILIGE! :eek: I've read the same thing the rest of you are reading FOUR times - I guess my Rose-colored glasses are just a shade or two Darker then yours. ;) I know it's ancient history, and the text is vague probably because of that, but I just want to know what is the 'correct' way to kill an Elf? You know, the one that the Seldarine obviously approves of. Cause Ima goin' huntin' this weekend..... :devil:
BrennonGoldeye 04-23-07, 06:23 AM	Bad, bad Markus. ;)
Philalexandros 04-23-07, 06:31 AM	What? Envy? Is that your opinion? Another Saga of Woe? It's not my opinion; it's what Markus was citing from LEoF. As I've stated time after time, there is a difference between the fact-driven timelines and the opinion-driven "literary pieces" that serve as introductions to some chapters. E.g., timeline = from no one's perspective but the objective developer's; "Saga of Woe = whatever surface elves believe. Ironically, I was both pointing out Markus' error and helping out a bit with his cause, since the "Saga" is actually damning toward the drow elves.
Philalexandros 04-23-07, 06:50 AM	Since I've only read the Italics for the first time, obviously NONE of my opinions were based off that. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but the fact remains that your position was based on one sub-race's opinion. Like I've been saying, I read everything, from Cormanthor, to the Dark Elven entry in LoD, and little tidbits stashed away in MANY other books, and the original DotU, and I still feel that they were provoked, and over-reacted. What was so bad that the rest of the Elves weren't already doing during the FIRST Crown War (ya know, the one the Dark Elves had NOTHING to do with)?! Killing other Elves? They were ALL doing that, except for maybe Keltormir. They were killing them in a mean spirited fashion, instead of smiling while they did it? The difference should be plainly obvious, since you yourself read all of these tidbits: Aryvandaar's elves (and, to a lesser extent, elves from other realms) either excused or tolerated the war because Aryvaandar's legal claims to Miyeritar's throne were apparently convincing enough. Is that unrealistic? No one has ever accused the elves of being peace-nicks. The above war is not at odds with their character, especially when one remembers that the Tel'Quessir have almost never abided by the CG-standard model of the Monster Manual. More importantly, notice how all atrocities and obvious uses of evil on the objective timeline are listed by Illythiir. Aryvaandar's war might have been wholly unwarranted (I think it was unwarranted), but no timeline or even "fluff" paragraphs depict them taking the war to the populace or using unrestricted warfare. It doesn't necessarily mean this didn't happen, but it's very telling that the developers qualified the evil done, perpetrated by, and worshipped by the Illythiiri... without even a token mention of anything beyond militarism for the Aryvandaari. Oh Wait! Now I remember, THEY KILLED TREES! That was it... killing other Elves is just all in a Days work (for an Elf), but burning down a forest is tantemont to SACRILIGE! :eek: Actually, the problem here is that, over several pages and several topics, the language has gotten muddled down to the point where the point is in danger of being lost. What the Illythirri did that was new and unique wasn't just burning trees. What they did was raze to the ground an entire realm. Not just the towns, but the whole stinking thing. Then, they did it again. Then, they started using demon-magic (not a catchy term; just what it was) and undead creatures in their armies. And that was all before Malkizid ever went to the Vyshaan. Do remember that, while Malkizid had to keep his rule secret, Wendonai's followers reveled in their power. Rose-colored glasses? Not at all. I have no preference either way, and don't let my tastes dictate my ability to perceive the "story" from the developer-given facts. Want a more plausible hypothesis? Malkizid went to the Vyshaan, told them of Wendonai and the drow, told them of their rising, demon-granted power, and had them make a deal with the devil (literally) to get the insight and power needed to put them down, hard. The Vyshaan accepted and damned their souls forever. Cue the Dark Disaster.
Zanan 04-23-07, 12:29 PM	It's not my opinion; it's what Markus was citing from LEoF. Well ... can't remember reading that word in the given context in either Cormnthyr or LEoF. And AFAIK, the dark elves weren't envious at someone at the time either. They just wanted to rule them all, as any good evil-doers want ... BTW, it is Ilythiiri.
Lord Karsus 04-23-07, 12:37 PM	And AFAIK, the dark elves weren't envious at someone at the time either. They just wanted to rule them all, as any good evil-doers want ... -This is neither here nor there, but envy stems from power. You don't envy someone who has it worse than you do, do you? Those who are envious of others are in a position of less power than those they are jealous of. If you are envious of a rich person, it is because you percieve yourself to have less power than they do. If you are envious of a police officer, it is because you percieve yourself to be in a weaker position than them. Thus, if the Ilythiiri wanted more power than Aryvandaar, or whomever else, it was because they were jealous of their power...:teach:
Philalexandros 04-23-07, 04:57 PM	Zanan, "But the shadow upon the hearts of the Ssri'Tel'Quessir stemmed not from grief, but from greed and envy. The shadow wove its insidious tendrils about them and whispered to them of wicked acts and ell deeds. To their own damnation, the Ilythiiri heeded the council of the shadow and were drawn by it into darkness." Whether this surface-written piece is as accurate as the fact-driven pieces that aren't written from anyone's perspective I leave up to you. Timeline-wise, this would seem to describe the time period between the invasion of Orishaar and the arrival with Wendonai. Thanks for the catch, by the way. I seem to have drank too much Illithid juice. :D
Stigger 04-23-07, 05:54 PM	To add something to what LK said up there in post #193, I seem to recall something in Blackstaff about Khelben deliberately putting out misinformation and using it to manipulate events to his liking... something he could have learned from his elven roots... so who's to say what's really true and what isn't if it could all be lore distorted to fit someones agenda. Not like the elves haven't shown themselves willing to do a lot to protect their secrets and lore from outsiders. Why give him access at all to their lore and let him relate the events he did unless they hoped to gain something, conceal something, or promote a certain perspective? I've never gotten the impression that elves were squeamish about revisionism...
BrennonGoldeye 04-23-07, 07:28 PM	We aren't.:D
MarkusTay63 04-24-07, 02:37 AM	Thanks for the catch, by the way. I seem to have drank too much Illithid juice. :DYou just made me realize something - "Illithid"... "Ilythiir"... hmmmmm, WHEN did the mind flayers first arrive on Toril? :devil: Now THAT would be reason enough to drive them underground for all eternity. And at Stigger - excellent point, that is what I've been driving at, and even used a similar reference in another thread. I'm sure the Dark Elven histories read quite a bit different, but who is a human going to most likely believe? Or even have contact with? "To the Victor go the spoils" 15,000 years is a LONG time, even the Elves can't possibly know what really happened that dark and fateful day an entire Elven people were driven from the light, and the Seldarine turned their backs on them forever. :( What city would you rather grow up in, Leuthilspar (Evermeet), or Menzoberranzen? The Drow aren't afraid of hell - they LIVE it every single day. Just some food for thought.
Zanan 04-24-07, 04:19 AM	@ Phil ... didnae say it wisnae in there, just couldnae remember it ;) (Surely more Elven propaganda! :D )
Philalexandros 04-24-07, 07:43 AM	(Surely more Elven propaganda! :D ) Most undoubtedly the "Saga of Woe" is subject to bias. The fact remains, though, that it is separate from the timelines, which aren't biased, and which do portray largely the same things. ;) P.S.: I wasn't trying to rub it, or anything like that. I just figured you didn't have the source handy. :) "To the Victor go the spoils" 15,000 years is a LONG time, even the Elves can't possibly know what really happened ... Agreed. Personally, I have always viewed "Evermeet" the novel as a tainted source. I assume that any and all contradictions between it and canon material stem from the fact that Danilo was researching either incomplete (lost, partial due to sads of time), perishable (poor memory), or even biased accounts. On the other hand, thank goodness for the LEoF, which does away with conjecture. ;) / :D ... that dark and fateful day an entire Elven people were driven from the light, and the Seldarine turned their backs on the forever. That's where we disagree, though. The latest canon sources make it clear that the majority of the Ilythiiri turned their backs from both the light and the Seldarine a long time before that ritual was hurled at them. No civilization that created the things the Ilythiiri created, and that commited the deeds they did, needed to be "driven" from the light. They were, after all, called "dhaerow" before they actually were made into "drow."
Stigger 04-24-07, 07:59 AM	Gotta give him some credit for eloquence though... but there is room for arguement since it only specifically says the Illythiri nobles were worshipping dark powers as I recall. Not sure offhand though, and I don't feel like looking it up at the moment. Presuming my memory isn't faulty on the matter, one could make a case that they were really no worse than the Vyshaan on that account...
GothicDan 04-24-07, 08:12 AM	The quote that I posted on the other thread about this referred to the Ilythiiri as a whole, not just the nobles. While it's likely that the noble houses pushed for such things more actively, Ilythiiri society as a whole was in time fairly corrupt and rife with the worship of dark powers, according to LEoF. As far as Aryvandaar goes, only the Vyshaanti clan are mentioned as falling to Malkazid's corruptions; no more general statement is given concerning Aryvandaari society as a whole in that regard. And I'm still wondering what facts people are reading that's making Aryvandaar seem as 'evil' as Ilythiir, when it's all pretty clearly printed in LEoF. I mean, even Zanan herself hasn't deemed any of our "elf propaganda" actually incorrect in light of canon sources (other than that little spelling bit).
MarkusTay63 04-24-07, 03:38 PM	But Dan, the bottom line is that the Dark Elves DID NOT start the Crown Wars. Thats like a bully who beats up everyone, and one day runs into someone who kicks HIS @ss, and then he calls the cops on the 'bad' man. Truthfully, we are all reading the same material, but no two people are going to take it exactly the same way... :nonono: Think about it, if the Illythiiri NEVER went to war, and stayed home pickin' their noses, Aryvandaar would have CONTINUED to expand and eventually fought them anyway, under circumstances far more strategically dis-advantageous. The Vyshan Elves would have ruled the world, and humans would have been enslaved like beasts. No... the world is a far better place for the Illythiiri having been there... That's where we disagree, though. The latest canon sources make it clear that the majority of the Ilythiiri turned their backs from both the light and the Seldarine a long time before that ritual was hurled at them. No civilization that created the things the Ilythiiri created, and that commited the deeds they did, needed to be "driven" from the light. They were, after all, called "dhaerow" before they actually were made into "drow."I wasn't speaking metaphorically, I was speaking physicaly. Light=Sunshine. You know, the warm caress of a heavenly body upon the cheek, the smell of flowers blooming in a meadow, the sweet, sweet music of songbirds lilting in the air.... ;) Darkness may have been on their souls and in their hearts, but now it presses down upon them each and every day. It reminds me of the RW prison system and why it is self-defeating; the Elves do not believe in reform, just punishment. BTW - Thanks Stigger, I can wax poetical in my less moronic moments. :D
Stigger 04-24-07, 04:36 PM	Okay, so having re-read the section, seems my memory was faulty. But... The Illythirii weren't noted as having started openly worshipping Llolth and the gang until 50 years after the Dark Disaster. So, going by the most advantageous interpretation of that we can, could it not be the case that the Illythirii were ambivalent to those dark gods at best and still loyal to the Seldarine on a broader level, until they saw that the Seldarine did nothing to avenge and fix the atrocity the Vyshaan unleashed? If the Seldarine just sat there and let a realm be destroyed so callously, why shouldn't they find a new set of patrons who would make things right? First Corellon banishes their patroness instead of talking things over and wooing her back to the light, then he lets his favorites wipe out Miyeritar without lifting a finger, after all those dark elves went in with the three Miyeritaran high mages to stop the abomination Corellon's favorites had unleashed upon the Realms... What reason did they have not to go evil if that was the way the Seldarine was treating them? You can only kick a dog so many times before he eventually bites you back...
Dr_Tough 04-24-07, 05:07 PM	I always imagined them as being more or less like the moon or sun elves except (more) evil.
Mikayla 04-24-07, 07:23 PM	Stigger: The Illythirii weren't noted as having started openly worshipping Llolth and the gang until 50 years after the Dark Disaster. So, going by the most advantageous interpretation of that we can, could it not be the case that the Illythirii were ambivalent to those dark gods at best and still loyal to the Seldarine on a broader level, until they saw that the Seldarine did nothing to avenge and fix the atrocity the Vyshaan unleashed? If the Seldarine just sat there and let a realm be destroyed so callously, why shouldn't they find a new set of patrons who would make things right? First Corellon banishes their patroness instead of talking things over and wooing her back to the light, then he lets his favorites wipe out Miyeritar without lifting a finger, after all those dark elves went in with the three Miyeritaran high mages to stop the abomination Corellon's favorites had unleashed upon the Realms... What reason did they have not to go evil if that was the way the Seldarine was treating them? You can only kick a dog so many times before he eventually bites you back... And there is the truth of it - there was no "accident" in the curse that changed the appearance of all dark elves - it was concious on Corellon's part. He wanted to rid the world of the elves that reminded him of his lost wife because the memory of his lost wife reminds him of his greatest failure - the failure to treat his queen with the respect she was due. That failure caused a seed of jealously to take root in her heart and it eventually consumed her. He did not kill her out right because he knows her fall is his doing - his neglect, his arrogance, his total failure as a husband is what led Araushnee to that fateful conspiracy that would end with her driven out of her home by an uncaring, unfaithful and ultimately, unrepetent husband. Then, millenia later, Corellon tires of seeing the dark elves who are the last reminder of his lost wife and his ultimate failure, and so his curse condemns them all, evil or not! And they are driven underground, far from his sight, or so he thinks. As for the Aryvaandar and the Vyshaan, well, they are sun elves and much more like Corellon than the dark elves, so they get off easy though they've committed no less horrifying atrocities than their condemned brother dark-elves. The adherents of Corellon would do well to remember that it takes two to tango - the failure of the Araushnee/Corellon marriage falls to both participants, not just Araushnee. Sure, she plotted to kill him and sure, she used her children and sure, she invited Gruumsh to Arvandor, but did Corellon treat her well? Did he treat her as his equal? As a queen should be treated? Noooooooooooo. As so the no-good, sexist, football-obsessed, airhead gets what he gets. Oh wait, I am thinking of someone else. But its the same thing! Sort of. Long live Lolth! Patron saint (matron saint?) of ignored wives and oppressed, divorced, demonized, single-mothers everywhere!
Zandilar 04-24-07, 09:48 PM	Heya, Hmm... No no no. Even the gods need to take responsibility for their own actions. ;) Lolth went into darkness of her own accord because she was petty and jealous to begin with, not because Corellon did not respect her. SHE made the choice to lash out, rather than deciding to talk to Corellon about what was bothering her. In any event, I do think that the punishment meted out to the dark elves is self defeating. It merely reinforces the darkness instead of illuminating it to show it for what it is. Thankfully Eilistraee has taken upon herself to try to bring light into the darkness - but she is but one goddess, and the darkness is vast.
The Ubbergeek 04-24-07, 10:26 PM	What's interesting is that we don't know what happened to Lloth, really. Was she hiding since the beginning a darkness? Was she corrupted? Was she changed, as Planescape imply, by the changes in the heart of her followers? We may never know... What is said of her before her 'fall'? Was she a good goddess, fair and nice? Mercurial already?
Mikayla 04-24-07, 10:45 PM	Prior to the divorce .. er .. her 'fall' .. she was a beautiful, pleasant, nice, weaver of destiny. Afterwards, during that period between the seperation and when she took over the drow more or less, as I understand it, she was waiting tables in Sigil while going back to school to earn her "Deity Degree." I would say all things considered, she's done pretty well for herself - a self-made goddess as it were. ;)
Zandilar 04-24-07, 10:53 PM	Heya, Prior to the divorce .. er .. her 'fall' .. she was a beautiful, pleasant, nice, weaver of destiny. Afterwards, during that period between the seperation and when she took over the drow more or less, as I understand it, she was waiting tables in Sigil while going back to school to earn her "Deity Degree." I would say all things considered, she's done pretty well for herself - a self-made goddess as it were. ;) :rofl: :D @Ubbergeek - I'm fairly sure she was vain and shallow, quite mecurial, and prone to jealousy. At least that's from everything I've read, and I haven't read everything. (I believe Arushnee's alignment was CN.)
Philalexandros 04-25-07, 12:03 AM	But Dan, the bottom line is that the Dark Elves DID NOT start the Crown Wars. No, they didn't. They did, however demonstrate that they were no better by instigating warfare between three different nations before the Crown Wars even started. Thats like a bully who beats up everyone, and one day runs into someone who kicks HIS @ss, ... Bad analogy, given that the Ilythiiri were not, in fact, able to defeat the Aryvandaari. ... and then he calls the cops on the 'bad' man. Another bad analogy. The Vyshaan had nothing to do with the ritual that punished the Ilythiiri. In fact, it was the remaining Seldarine-minded kingdoms that performed the ritual. Truthfully, we are all reading the same material, but no two people are going to take it exactly the same way... :nonono: What I've noticed is that some people are allowing their tastes to supercede ther objectivity. ;) I love the drow; I love the Ilythiiri. I just don't pretend they're "tragic" villains. It cheapens their status. ... Aryvandaar would have CONTINUED to expand and eventually fought them anyway, under circumstances far more strategically dis-advantageous. The Vyshan Elves would have ruled the world, and humans would have been enslaved like beasts. Not true at all. The record already shows that the rest of the kingdoms would not have stood for it. Notice how, when the ritual was directed at the Ilythiir, the dark elves were by no means described as weakened or defeated. Similarly, the united kingdoms were able to turn on still-incredibly powerful Aryvandaar and defeat it trough their own coalition. The idea that the Vyshaan would have somehow conquered all of elvenkind (and the world) is ludicrous; I use that word because the record already shows that they tried--and failed. Think about it, if the Illythiiri NEVER went to war, and stayed home pickin' their noses, ... No... the world is a far better place for the Illythiiri having been there... Again, not true at all. When the Aryvandaari began threatening the rest of elvenkind, what did the Ilythiiri do? They attacked a largely innocent standby. In fact, the Ilythiir didn't even bother to *fight* the Vyshaan until the Fourth Crown War. In the 1700 or so ensuing years, they did find the energy to destroy four elven realms, though. Thus, the idea that Ilythiiri were somehow responsible for checking a greater Aryvandaari evil is also somewhat silly. The Ilythiir were an even greater threat, ultimately, and were stopped by the same coalition that stopped the Vyshaan as well. I wasn't speaking metaphorically, I was speaking physicaly. I know. I was speaking on both levels. Darkness may have been on their souls and in their hearts, but now it presses down upon them each and every day. It reminds me of the RW prison system and why it is self-defeating; the Elves do not believe in reform, just punishment. Come on, Markus. By the time they were banished, the Ilythiir had invested about a millenium of their history in demon magic, the worship of evil deities, etc. No offense, but comparing this to the majority of contemporary crime, which largely stems from two factors (lack of education; poverty) is a bit off, to say the least. The Illythirii weren't noted as having started openly worshipping Llolth and the gang until 50 years after the Dark Disaster. Nonetheless, the church of Lolth was prominent for a millenium prior to this. What this shows is that the Ilythiiri, at the time of the Second and Third Crown Wars, had reason to keep their worship secret from the other elves. So, going by the most advantageous interpretation of that we can, could it not be the case that the Illythirii were ambivalent to those dark gods at best and still loyal to the Seldarine on a broader level, until they saw that the Seldarine did nothing to avenge and fix the atrocity the Vyshaan unleashed? The rest of the material you cite makes it plainly obvious that this was not the case. By the time the Fourth Crown War started, and prior to the Dark Disaster, the Ilythiiri had destroyed three realms that had nothing to do with Aryvandaar, or who did not appreciate the dark elves invading and destroying their neighbors. If the Seldarine just sat there and let a realm be destroyed so callously, why shouldn't they find a new set of patrons who would make things right? Wendonai showed up long before the Dark Disaster.... Finally, the Aryvandaari were by no means Corellon's "favorites." Their leaders used infernal powers to unleash the Dark Disaster, and Corellon himself called a conclave to gain them punishment. Beyong that, while the Vyshaan's lives were declared forfeit, Corellon (supposedly, according to Evermeet) allowed the drow a chance for redemption in the form of Eilistraee. Lest anyone think that's a sham, it's worked for 15% of the Drow.
Lord Karsus 04-25-07, 12:44 AM	What city would you rather grow up in, Leuthilspar (Evermeet), or Menzoberranzen? -Leuthilspar. Come on, that's asking if you'd rather grow up in...an affluent neighborhood in Hawaii, or Camden, New Jersey. ;) What's interesting is that we don't know what happened to Lloth, really. Was she hiding since the beginning a darkness? Was she corrupted? Was she changed, as Planescape imply, by the changes in the heart of her followers? We may never know... What is said of her before her 'fall'? Was she a good goddess, fair and nice? Mercurial already? -Well probably never know. All we really do know was that she was prideful, jealous, and was very ambitious.
Stigger 04-25-07, 02:07 AM	And there is the truth of it - there was no "accident" in the curse that changed the appearance of all dark elves - it was concious on Corellon's part. He wanted to rid the world of the elves that reminded him of his lost wife because the memory of his lost wife reminds him of his greatest failure - the failure to treat his queen with the respect she was due. That failure caused a seed of jealously to take root in her heart and it eventually consumed her. He did not kill her out right because he knows her fall is his doing - his neglect, his arrogance, his total failure as a husband is what led Araushnee to that fateful conspiracy that would end with her driven out of her home by an uncaring, unfaithful and ultimately, unrepetent husband. Then, millenia later, Corellon tires of seeing the dark elves who are the last reminder of his lost wife and his ultimate failure, and so his curse condemns them all, evil or not! And they are driven underground, far from his sight, or so he thinks. As for the Aryvaandar and the Vyshaan, well, they are sun elves and much more like Corellon than the dark elves, so they get off easy though they've committed no less horrifying atrocities than their condemned brother dark-elves. The adherents of Corellon would do well to remember that it takes two to tango - the failure of the Araushnee/Corellon marriage falls to both participants, not just Araushnee. Sure, she plotted to kill him and sure, she used her children and sure, she invited Gruumsh to Arvandor, but did Corellon treat her well? Did he treat her as his equal? As a queen should be treated? Noooooooooooo. As so the no-good, sexist, football-obsessed, airhead gets what he gets. Oh wait, I am thinking of someone else. But its the same thing! Sort of. Long live Lolth! Patron saint (matron saint?) of ignored wives and oppressed, divorced, demonized, single-mothers everywhere! You know, my wife shares that theory with you there... mostly anyway. Me, I'd rather grow up in Menzo... but I've always had a mild sub streak in me. ;) :D
Zandilar 04-25-07, 03:54 AM	Heya, I love the drow; I love the Ilythiiri. I just don't pretend they're "tragic" villains. It cheapens their status. and Beyong that, while the Vyshaan's lives were declared forfeit, Corellon (supposedly, according to Evermeet) allowed the drow a chance for redemption in the form of Eilistraee. Lest anyone think that's a sham, it's worked for 15% of the Drow. The last figure I saw with regards to drow following Eilistraee, which was from Ed himself, is 22% - they're not all good, mind, just those who worship/venerate Eilistraee. But 15% is not an insignificant minority. In my opinion, if that figure was also accurate for the Illythiiri - then yes, the whole disaster was a terrible tradegy, and should never have been allowed to pass by the Good members of the Seldarine. My understanding is that it was all dark elves, not just the Illythiiri, who represented one "tribe" (big though it was) who were cast into the underdark.
Philalexandros 04-25-07, 09:26 AM	Hmmm, I do, however, think there's a difference between a tragedy (unintended consequences of an epic piece of magic) and tragic villains. In my eyes, it goes like this: 1) 15-22% of dark elves being good guys but caught by the spell: tragic. 2) 78%-85% of dark elves pre- or post-High magic ritual: not tragic villains.
BrennonGoldeye 04-25-07, 09:31 AM	In my eyes, it goes like this: 1) 15-22% of dark elves being good guys but caught by the spell: tragic. 2) 78%-85% of dark elves pre- or post-High magic ritual: not tragic villains. Watching the Weaver get Her butt handed to Her on a mithral platter: Priceless.
Khaelieth 04-25-07, 11:17 AM	No, they didn't. They did, however demonstrate that they were no better by instigating warfare between three different nations before the Crown Wars even started. Finally, the Aryvandaari were by no means Corellon's "favorites." Their leaders used infernal powers to unleash the Dark Disaster, and Corellon himself called a conclave to gain them punishment. Beyong that, while the Vyshaan's lives were declared forfeit, Corellon (supposedly, according to Evermeet) allowed the drow a chance for redemption in the form of Eilistraee. Lest anyone think that's a sham, it's worked for 15% of the Drow. Nope, the Ilythiiri weren't as good as the Vyshanti. And the reason the Vyshans weren't given a chance of redemption was... did they need it?:D Honestly though, the drow got cursed, not the Vyshanti. Beware the Four Sons!
Renvale999 04-25-07, 01:26 PM	I've always thought it would be a cool campaign to have a group of adventurer's set out to heal Lolth...to bring back Araushnee, if you will. The PC's would never fight Lolth, but simply use some ancient ritual to bring back Araushnee...I would also have Corellon sacrifice himself (to make up for failing her and letting her fall) during the final ritual in order to hold Lolth on whatever plane the ritual takes place, then Araushnee would come back and become the head of the elven pantheon... I don't know sounds stupid I know, but I always thought it would be cool....sorry not trying to side-track the thread.
BrennonGoldeye 04-25-07, 01:50 PM	I've always thought it would be a cool campaign to have a group of adventurer's set out to heal Lolth...to bring back Araushnee, if you will. The PC's would never fight Lolth, but simply use some ancient ritual to bring back Araushnee...I would also have Corellon sacrifice himself (to make up for failing her and letting her fall) during the final ritual in order to hold Lolth on whatever plane the ritual takes place, then Araushnee would come back and become the head of the elven pantheon... I don't know sounds stupid I know, but I always thought it would be cool....sorry not trying to side-track the thread. Same plot is going on in 2 of my groups(except for the Corellon thing). Seems the Kiddies want to save themselves by reminding Mom what She once was. One Kid wants a hug, the other His inheritence. Both believe Her ancient choice a major mistake.:)
Mikayla 04-25-07, 01:58 PM	RenV: I've always thought it would be a cool campaign to have a group of adventurer's set out to heal Lolth...to bring back Araushnee, if you will. The PC's would never fight Lolth, but simply use some ancient ritual to bring back Araushnee...I would also have Corellon sacrifice himself (to make up for failing her and letting her fall) during the final ritual in order to hold Lolth on whatever plane the ritual takes place, then Araushnee would come back and become the head of the elven pantheon... I don't know sounds stupid I know, but I always thought it would be cool....sorry not trying to side-track the thread. Its not a stupid idea at all - its very close to my own in fact. I think the path to redemption for Lolth lies through Corellon's contrition - not that Corellon is the evil one here (I am going to set down my tongue-in-cheek Lolthian priestess forum persona here) but because Corellon did play a part in Araushnee's fall, however slight, and the only way to get through to Araushee/Lolth is for Corellon to make the first move towards reconciliation. Truth be told, Corellon is the "better" person - Araushnee/Lolth doesn't have it in her to apologize and make up first. So, Corellon will have to be the "bigger" person and do it, even though it really should be Araushnee apologizing to him (though I do hold Corellon partially to blame for the 'break-up' Araushnee/Lolth did the far worse evils obviously). So, the only way I can see this happening (Lolth's redemption) is that Corellon puts himself at Lolth's "mercy" and apologizes - she instinctively takes advantage of it and does horrible things to Corellon, but eventually, is moved by his selfless act and comes around - only after Corellon is "dead" of course. Now, Corellon is a smart guy (despite my earlier allegations of his "air-headedness") and he is going to plan for this - he has to be genuinely sorry for the way things turned out, and his apology has to be genuine also, but that does not mean he needs to totally fall on his sword - so Corellon arranges things so that he does not actually "die" despite Lolth's best attempts. In the end, Lolth "kills" Corellon as he apologizes, only to realize that she was the one in the wrong - at that moment her evil facade crumbles, she laments the evil she has done, breaks down, etc . . . and then Corellon shows up alive (according to plan). She apologizes, he graciously accepts, and drow and elf are united again, more or less (there will always be hold-outs of evil of course, such as those silly ooze-lovers of Ghaunadaur or the undead minions of Kiaransalee or the fiend-touched-and-touching flocks of Fey'ri, but whatever). And thats how it goes. This may offend the sensibility of some pro-elf folks who think that Corellon is perfect and incapable of wrong-doing, and thus should not apologize, but even if his part was small, he still played a part in the failure of his marriage - and since he is the "good" one, its up to him to start the reconciliation, and the only way to do that is to be the one to apologize first. Not like I have any experience with failed relationships or anything . . . **Thumbs through her divorce papers again . . . ** ;)
BrennonGoldeye 04-25-07, 02:03 PM	RenV: Its not a stupid idea at all - its very close to my own in fact. I think the path to redemption for Lolth lies through Corellon's contrition - not that Corellon is the evil one here (I am going to set down my tongue-in-cheek Lolthian priestess forum persona here) but because Corellon did play a part in Araushnee's fall, however slight, and the only way to get through to Araushee/Lolth is for Corellon to make the first move towards reconciliation. Truth be told, Corellon is the "better" person - Araushnee/Lolth doesn't have it in her to apologize and make up first. So, Corellon will have to be the "bigger" person and do it, even though it really should be Araushnee apologizing to him (though I do hold Corellon partially to blame for the 'break-up' Araushnee/Lolth did the far worse evils obviously). So, the only way I can see this happening (Lolth's redemption) is that Corellon puts himself at Lolth's "mercy" and apologizes - she instinctively takes advantage of it and does horrible things to Corellon, but eventually, is moved by his selfless act and comes around - only after Corellon is "dead" of course. Now, Corellon is a smart guy (despite my earlier allegations of his "air-headedness") and he is going to plan for this - he has to be genuinely sorry for the way things turned out, and his apology has to be genuine also, but that does not mean he needs to totally fall on his sword - so Corellon arranges things so that he does not actually "die" despite Lolth's best attempts. In the end, Lolth "kills" Corellon as he apologizes, only to realize that she was the one in the wrong - at that moment her evil facade crumbles, she laments the evil she has done, breaks down, etc . . . and then Corellon shows up alive (according to plan). She apologizes, he graciously accepts, and drow and elf are united again, more or less (there will always be hold-outs of evil of course, such as those silly ooze-lovers of Ghaunadaur or the undead minions of Kiaransalee or the fiend-touched-and-touching flocks of Fey'ri, but whatever). And thats how it goes. This may offend the sensibility of some pro-elf folks who think that Corellon is perfect and incapable of wrong-doing, and thus should not apologize, but even if his part was small, he still played a part in the failure of his marriage - and since he is the "good" one, its up to him to start the reconciliation, and the only way to do that is to be the one to apologize first. Not like I have any experience with failed relationships or anything . . . **Thumbs through her divorce papers again . . . ** ;) :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Very nice Mi'Lady, very nice.:D
Khaelieth 04-25-07, 02:10 PM	Not like I have any experience with failed relationships or anything . . . **Thumbs through her divorce papers again . . . ** ;) -Wait, did you just compare yourself to Lolth? And the part about her being the "lesser" person?:D But what would happen to Vhaeraun... wait... Selvetarm... dammit... They have been dealt with! Poor Araushnee's lost two children as well! Lay the responsibility at her feet as well! I'd hate it if this became canon, tbh. But it is a great idea for an adventure!
GothicDan 04-25-07, 02:16 PM	But Dan, the bottom line is that the Dark Elves DID NOT start the Crown Wars. Thats like a bully who beats up everyone, and one day runs into someone who kicks HIS @ss, and then he calls the cops on the 'bad' man. Truthfully, we are all reading the same material, but no two people are going to take it exactly the same way... Aryvandaar did not start the Crown War, either. They started a war with Miyeritar. Ilythiir used Miyeritar's attack as an EXCUSE to strike at a fairly neutral Elven realm that had done nothing to harm anyone else, who had no known hand in the attack on Miyeritar, but who just so happened to be trade-friendly with Aryvandaar. Aryvandaar at the very least gave what one could consider a legitimate reason for their invasion - citing political ties to the throne. Ilythiir's 'excuse' was nothing but that - an excuse. They did not directly attack Aryvandaar, and nor do we have any actual evidence as to Ilythiir sending any aid directly to Miyeritar, or harboring any refugees. Their attack had nothing to do with the first. Given that Ilythiir caused multiple Elven realms to go to war with each other, and had already fallen to the worship of evil deities, LONG before House Vyshaanti even came to power in Aryvandaar (see the LEoF timeline), it's pretty obvious that Ilythiir only checked itself in fear of other Elven realms retaliating if they sought to extend their power. With Aryvandaar attacking Miyeritar, they made the thin excuse of attacking a trade partner of Aryvandaar, while in no way helping Miyeritar itself. And I'll note that this Aryvandaari ally was in no way militarily allied with Aryvandaar as far as we know, and nor was it in any geographical position to aid them in holding Miyeritar. LEoF makes it clear that it was an EXCUSE only, and that Ilythiir had already started on the downward slope of corruption and violence, long before the Crown Wars. Think about it, if the Illythiiri NEVER went to war, and stayed home pickin' their noses, Aryvandaar would have CONTINUED to expand and eventually fought them anyway, under circumstances far more strategically dis-advantageous. The Vyshan Elves would have ruled the world, and humans would have been enslaved like beasts. No... the world is a far better place for the Illythiiri having been there... Why do you think the other Elven realms would have allowed this to happen? Aryvandaar may have been extremely powerful, but many other Elven realms existed at that time in their heydey, too.
Mikayla 04-25-07, 02:24 PM	Khal: -Wait, did you just compare yourself to Lolth? And the part about her being the "lesser" person? Ahhh...pretty much, yep. **hangs head in shame** You know, there is a reason I identify with her so much and play a priestess of Lolth in game. Of course, I am no longer waiting tables in Sigil . . . err . . . Oakland . . . anymore, no, like Lolth I've have gone truly evil - she became a demon, I became a lawyer . . . ;)
Khaelieth 04-25-07, 02:38 PM	became a demon, I became a lawyer . . . ;) Ah, you're LE?;) But I think I might fire off this adventure in my own campaigns one day.
Renvale999 04-25-07, 03:12 PM	RenV: Its not a stupid idea at all - its very close to my own in fact. I think the path to redemption for Lolth lies through Corellon's contrition - not that Corellon is the evil one here (I am going to set down my tongue-in-cheek Lolthian priestess forum persona here) but because Corellon did play a part in Araushnee's fall, however slight, and the only way to get through to Araushee/Lolth is for Corellon to make the first move towards reconciliation. Truth be told, Corellon is the "better" person - Araushnee/Lolth doesn't have it in her to apologize and make up first. So, Corellon will have to be the "bigger" person and do it, even though it really should be Araushnee apologizing to him (though I do hold Corellon partially to blame for the 'break-up' Araushnee/Lolth did the far worse evils obviously). So, the only way I can see this happening (Lolth's redemption) is that Corellon puts himself at Lolth's "mercy" and apologizes - she instinctively takes advantage of it and does horrible things to Corellon, but eventually, is moved by his selfless act and comes around - only after Corellon is "dead" of course. Now, Corellon is a smart guy (despite my earlier allegations of his "air-headedness") and he is going to plan for this - he has to be genuinely sorry for the way things turned out, and his apology has to be genuine also, but that does not mean he needs to totally fall on his sword - so Corellon arranges things so that he does not actually "die" despite Lolth's best attempts. In the end, Lolth "kills" Corellon as he apologizes, only to realize that she was the one in the wrong - at that moment her evil facade crumbles, she laments the evil she has done, breaks down, etc . . . and then Corellon shows up alive (according to plan). She apologizes, he graciously accepts, and drow and elf are united again, more or less (there will always be hold-outs of evil of course, such as those silly ooze-lovers of Ghaunadaur or the undead minions of Kiaransalee or the fiend-touched-and-touching flocks of Fey'ri, but whatever). And thats how it goes. This may offend the sensibility of some pro-elf folks who think that Corellon is perfect and incapable of wrong-doing, and thus should not apologize, but even if his part was small, he still played a part in the failure of his marriage - and since he is the "good" one, its up to him to start the reconciliation, and the only way to do that is to be the one to apologize first. Not like I have any experience with failed relationships or anything . . . **Thumbs through her divorce papers again . . . ** ;) I like your idea alot better than mine lol, but of course everyone has better ideas than me lol. Right now, my group is currently on the road to City of the Spider Queen(Currently in Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde then to Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, then to City of the Spider Queen, the thing they don't know is that it's all a ploy(I'm not really following canon, sorry) of Lolth's. She is setting Kiarensenlee up...Kiar is putting alot of power and backing into Irae and Lolth has subtley influenced the PC's into tracking her down...once PC's destroy Irae, Kiar will be severely weakened and Lolth will come awake and force Kiar into complete servitude(with no free will at all)...I know I'm not totally following canon, but I'm trying to tailor my realms to my current campaign.
MarkusTay63 04-25-07, 04:13 PM	Okay, every time I push for a live-and-let-live conclusion to this argument, you guys re-pick the fight. And yes, tearing apart another person's post is an extremely antagonistic form of posting. We are ALL only seeing the parts we want (and I WILL prove that), but you guys refuse to except that!!! :banghead: Stop comparing apples and oranges, dammit! We are talking about the Crown Wars, not the war of Three Leaves. But since YOU bring it up, let's, shall we? :devil: The War of Three Leaves was fought between Thearnytar, Eiellūr, and Syņrpiir, not Illythiir. Illythiir was the nearest realm to these three, and was in a position of power. Up until this point, Ilythiir culture, which was said to be a proud warrior culture by Ed himself (2e DotU), must have primarily fought amongst itself, much the way the pre-Crusade Tuigen did (and do). That may be conjecture, but there is no evidence of them attacking any of their neighbors prior to the Crown wars. A few cities in the north had become evil and took slaves (worshipping Ghaunader BTW, NOT LOLTH), but nothing is mentioned concerning and battles with the MAJORITY of Dark Elves living in Illythiir, which was far to the south. The 'light' Elves have never truly liked the dark Elves (look it up in E:IotE, where a Seldarine WARNS the Silver Elves against the evil Illythiir, LONG before the Illythiir ever did a thing!!!). There were a few cities along the northern border of their territories that had taken to evil ways, but the majority of Illythiiri at that point were NOT evil; Yet... the Seldarine (in the novel) practically spits venom when she warns the northerners about them. When YOUR GOD tells you someone is evil, you are going to believe it, even if 95% of the race in question has not DONE A THING WRONG! Getting back to the War of Three Leaves - the ONLY thing the Illythiiri did was perform a little 'espionage', sabotaging a possible future threat from emerging. Now, if you are trying to tell me that doing 'something' to weaken the military position of other nations is EVIL (as in DEMONIC)... well brother... we're ALL going to hell in a handbag! This is something that has been done since the beginning of time, from simple tribal councils all the way up to the age of Empires. It's not inheritly evil, it's just called politics, and it's been around forever. They didn't participate in THAT war either, they merely instigated it, which was clever of them, not evil. It specifically states in GHotR that Orishaar was a trading partner of Arynadaar. I thought you knew something of military tactics Phil; the best way to defeat an enemy is to cut off any supply lines he may have in YOUR region, reducing the chances of a successful invasion. Since they were (As far as we know) the only other Dark Elven culture, and the 'other Elves' have already displayed their dislike of Dark Elves (because of their gods), they had they right to feel threatened, and launched a pre-emptive strike. Nothing evil about that either, just a sound military decision by a warlike culture. In the end, they were proven correct in their actions during the War of Three Leaves, because the first thing those three nations did was band together and ATTACK Illythiir. Illythiir merely wanted to insure it's own safety up until that point, but after they invaded Illythiir the kid-gloves came off. I'm not saying that the Illythiir weren't war-like; in fact, in my netbook article I plan to portray them as violent and warlike BEFORE coming to Abeir-Toril. I also never claimed that they DID NOT become evil; in the final days most of them had probably become so tainted by what they had seen and done that they were WHOLLY EVIL as a people. All I'm saying, what most of us 'pro-Drow' are saying, is that they were driven to this point by events, and at no time did other Elves or the Seldarine try to lead them back down the 'right' path. The evil escalated on both sides, and in the end no-one was innocent. -Long live Lolth! Patron saint (matron saint?) of ignored wives and oppressed, divorced, demonized, single-mothers everywhere!This made me laugh. Even I would never have looked at it this way, well done. :clap: Of course, the b__ch probably deserved it.... ;)
BrennonGoldeye 04-25-07, 04:39 PM	Oh my....
Mikayla 04-25-07, 04:49 PM	MarkusT: This made me laugh. Even I would never have looked at it this way, well done. Thank you. :cloud9: Of course, the b__ch probably deserved it.... Oooh! Men! :mad: And they wonder why we betray them and corrupt their children and plot to slay them with poisoned arrows and let strange, one-eyed orc gods in the house and and and . . . MEN! :headexplo ;)
BrennonGoldeye 04-25-07, 04:57 PM	Double my...
Philalexandros 04-25-07, 05:08 PM	Okay, every time I push for a live-and-let-live conclusion to this argument, you guys re-pick the fight. And yes, tearing apart anohter person's post is an extremely antagonistic form of posting. Uhm, Markus, I really don't see why you're getting hung up about this. The Realms are a pretty simple receipe: either you go by the canon, or you change it to whatever you wish it to be so that it fits your vision. If you want a Realms where a tragic Ilythiir falls prey to Lolth's depradations by virtue of being corrupted by a war they didn't start, then, by all means... that's how it happened. If you want to go by canon sources, though, please don't be upset when your thoughts and opinions conflict with the established material. :( EDIT: Insofar as addressing your post point by point, I'm sorry... but there're a lot of points to be addressed within your posts. It's not meant to be antagonistic by any means--it's meant to maintain a coherent flow of argument. We are ALL only seeing the parts we want (and I WILL prove that), but you guys refuse to except that!!! :banghead: Not really... I'm going off of a 5-6 page spread of information that has finally been given to us sans mystery, fog of war, personal bias, etc. I think the only problem here is that for a long time there was enough "haze" to allow people to maintain their own points of view... and now that the haze has been lifted, concepts they took for granted have been done away with. Case in point, you don't like that the Drow are made into such horrid villains; Dan hates the fact that Malkizid was behind the evil of the Vyshaan. The only reason why I brought up the War of Three Leaves, btw, is because your previous post attempted to lump all fault on one side in a grossly lopsided way. You came off like you were trying to assert Ilythiir saved the world, for goodness' sake! ;) The War of Three Leaves was fought between Thearnytar, Eiellūr, and Syņrpiir, not Illythiir. It was instigated by Ilythiiri spies and assassins. LEoF, pg 51. Let the record also state that this war, which Ilythiir instigated with reasons even more dubious than Aryvandaar's lasted for just as long as the First Crown War. The 'light' Elves have never truly liked the dark Elves (look it up in E:IotE, where a Seldarine WARNS the Silver Elves against the evil Illythiir, LONG before the Illythiir ever did a thing!!!). Are you serious? If this is the part I remember, it was a prophetic revelation that... drumroll.... came TRUE. This might strike you as odd, Markus, but in a fantasy world where divine forces can and do influence the world and also can and do at times have the gift of seeing the future... those things happen. Getting back to the War of Three Leaves - the ONLY thing the Illythiiri did was perform a little 'espionage', sabotaging a possible future threat from emerging. Understatement of the century. They started a 300 year war. For selfish reasons. Right there, any sort of equivalency you tried to assert on the part of the Aryvandaari is out the window. Now, if you are trying to tell me that doing 'something' to weaken the military position of other nations as EVIL (as in DEMONIC)... well brother... we're ALL going to hell in a handbag! So I guess you're withdrawing all your claims of Aryvandaar acting in evil ways, then, right? This leaves us with just Ilythiir setting up shop with Balors, worshipping dark deities, using demon magic, razing entire realms, and using undead armies. It specifically states in GHotR that Orishaar was a trading partner of Arynadaar. The text in question qualifies that "the stated premise for the war was weak." Had Orishaar been meaningful, the text would have read differently. I thought you knew something of military tactics Phil; ... Oh, I do. I also know when to recognize propaganda. Especially when the game developer states that a particular faction's entire claim was just that. ;) the best way to defeat an enemy is to cut off any supply lines he may have in YOUR region, reducing the chances of a successful invasion. Except that this wasn't the case. Aryvandaar didn't depend on Orishaar for squat; we know this because its fall did nothing to affect the Vyshaan war machine. The fact that the developers themselves spell this out and that everyone else (also see below) at the time thought it was BS is just icing on the cake. Since they were (As far as we know) the only other Dark Elven culture, and the 'other Elves' have already displayed their dislike of Dark Elves (because of their gods), ... No, not "as far as we know." The texts of LEoF are quite clear on these matters, and I wish you wouldn't try so hard to distor the record. The fact of the matter is that, up until after Wendonai began working hand-in-hand with Ilythiir and their depravities began piling up, Ilythiir did have non-dark elf allies--like Keltomir. And, yeah, way to blame the other surface elves for maybe, just maybe being a little freaked out by working with demons and such. In the end, they were proven correct in their actions during the War of Three Leaves, because the first thing those three nations did was band together and ATTACK Illythiir. Was that before or after they attacked two separate nations, razing one to the ground? Yup, that was after. There's also about a hundred year gap between the two events, which pretty much does away with the idea that they just used the dark elves' actions as an excuse. Illythiir merely wanted to insure it's own safety up until that point, but after they invaded Illythiir the kid-gloves came off. Yeah, safety through preemptive assaults aimed at outright destroying entire nations that had nothing to do with them. All I'm saying, what most of us 'pro-Drow' are saying, is that they were driven to this point by events, and at no time did other Elves or the Seldarine try to lead them back down the 'right' path. The evil escalated on both sides, and in the end no-one was innocent. If any fault can be levelled on the surface elves, it's in minding their own business too much prior to the Crown Wars. The Ilythiir had a 6,000 year legacy of evil-deity worship on one level or another. You can't just try to rehabilitate an entire society (of millions?) when you don't have the power to do so. It's very telling that the Ilythiiri were exiled--and not destroyed. It's also very telling that the Vyshaan were hunted down and killed.
BrennonGoldeye 04-25-07, 05:44 PM	Ick, the deadly tripple my.....:eek:
MarkusTay63 04-25-07, 05:45 PM	:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: This reminds me of why I stopped going to church: Someone would read a passage and interpret god's message one way, and someone else would read the same exact passage and see something completely different. I got tired of arguiing with them too. (and let's not discuss THAT because this topic will be shut down faster then a Gold Elf in Menzoberranzen) ;) I'm am reading EXACTLY what you are reading, and I am TOTALLY disagreeing with YOUR OPINION. I think I have proven my point, but you still insist you are right. There will be no compromise, even though I have cited specific references. You will not budge, and I'm not about to change MY opinion. At NO POINT do I see the Dark Elves doing anything 'truly evil' until the last four decades - which is what is stated in the books. War and politics are not inheritently evil, they are just part of life. Do you leave your front door open, after you hear about a break-in at your neighbor's house? No, you go out and buy a new lock... and maybe a gun... You do what you must to protect your own, and thats the way it's always been. The Illythiiri did everything they did as a means of defense (the best defense IS a good offence), not part of some mega-expansionist manifest-destiny thing. Unlike Aryvandaar, they NEVER tried to occupy territories they defeated. They did what they thought they had to, and did NOT do it out of GREED. If you think that's evil, then that is your opinion. Once they switched over from simple 'defending their own' to covorting with demons and vengeance, then I will agree with you there. And if YOUR GODDESS tells you to 'watch-out' for some guy, and when he shows up YOU treat him antagonistically, then of course a fight is going to happen! It's called a self-fufilling prophecy, and if Durothil (sp?) hadn't had pre-conceptions thanks to her, then would things have gone differently? Remember EXACTLY which bas__rd plotted aginst Durothil, and was going to kill him. It was a GOLD ELF, not a dark, and he was working for Ghaunader at the time!!! I've met plenty of people in my day who called themselves 'satan-worshippers', and they were mostly a bunch of cockamaemee kids listening to Ozzy records. I've also met avid church-goers that make my skin crawl, but until one of them does something to harm me I take it all with a grain of salt. Actions speak louder then words my friend, and what I took away from that novel is that it is almost always a Gold Elf who screws things up. The Dark Elves, IMHO, were merely scapegoats, used by the Vyshantaar to deflect notice from their own activities. Unfortunetly for them, they awoke a sleeping giant. In the end, very few Elves could call themselves 'clean' (that too from the LEoF, they had to call a council and think about the things they had done). One last thing - not only was there a Crown war BEFORE the dark Elves, but there was one After they left! How much more could I possibly spell out for you?
Prince Indirian 04-25-07, 05:52 PM	Aryvandaar did not start the Crown War, either. They started a war with Miyeritar. Ilythiir used Miyeritar's attack as an EXCUSE to strike at a fairly neutral Elven realm that had done nothing to harm anyone else, who had no known hand in the attack on Miyeritar, but who just so happened to be trade-friendly with Aryvandaar. Actually they did, the First...;) Aryvandaar at the very least gave what one could consider a legitimate reason for their invasion - citing political ties to the throne. Ilythiir's 'excuse' was nothing but that - an excuse. They did not directly attack Aryvandaar, and nor do we have any actual evidence as to Ilythiir sending any aid directly to Miyeritar, or harboring any refugees. Their attack had nothing to do with the first. Actually it was legitimate from an Aryvandaari point of view ate best. As LEOF says, the Vyshaan used this as reason to annex the country, they likely didn't think it was something sn. And so was Illithyr version...in the beginning. Many realms thought the griefstrciken elves (Illithyr) were fighting for their kin, this can have been true in the beginning. But due to their actions (evil magic, evil deities etc) this began to sound very HOLLOW. So we can assume they realised they could use this excuse to conquer other realms, similiarly to Aryvandaar. .Also notice that the distance between Miyertar and Illithyr is...quite long...hmm. Given that Ilythiir caused multiple Elven realms to go to war with each other, and had already fallen to the worship of evil deities, LONG before House Vyshaanti even came to power in Aryvandaar (see the LEoF timeline), it's pretty obvious that Ilythiir only checked itself in fear of other Elven realms retaliating if they sought to extend their power. With Aryvandaar attacking Miyeritar, they made the thin excuse of attacking a trade partner of Aryvandaar, while in no way helping Miyeritar itself. And I'll note that this Aryvandaari ally was in no way militarily allied with Aryvandaar as far as we know, and nor was it in any geographical position to aid them in holding Miyeritar. Illthyr as WHOLE had not fallen to evil worship, some noble houses such as HUNE did however. Trade Alliance...one should take care of what this can mean. Sweden supplied Germany with lots iron ore and other essentials. All of this went directly to create arms and tanks...the allies sometimes contemplated attacking sweden to cut of the supply lines to Germany (which would leave the Germans with a loss of tanks for example), but due to Swedens "neutrality" they choose not to. Off course Sweden was not neutral she did a few non-neutral things, among them the trade as well as letting German soldier travel through the country. It was the logical to attack Sweden...same thing here, they had trade alliance with Aryvandaar and from a military point of view that is enough to attack them. And remember that Illithyr went to all sorts of extremes to win the war... LEoF makes it clear that it was an EXCUSE only, and that Ilythiir had already started on the downward slope of corruption and violence, long before the Crown Wars. Your are quite right here, but the Crown wars was a turning point. A change could have turned Illithyr in another direction. But we can both agree that excuses were made to though the Illithyr version was more plausible at the TIME. Today we can say it was not, but even other realms understood it then.
Philalexandros 04-25-07, 06:14 PM	:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: This reminds me of why I stopped going to church: Someone would read a passage and interpet god's message one way, and someone else would read the same exact passage and see something completely different. I got tired of arguiing with them too. (and let's not discuss THAT because this topic will be shut down faster then a Gold Elf in Menzoberranzen) ;) Well, the bible is a document that has been translated 3-4 times prior to being delivered in your church's King James (I assume) version. It also has gone throught a filter of "experts" who decided what certain words meant and what certain individuals were *really* saying. The LEoF, by comparison, is much more straightforward. I'm am reading EXACTLY what you are reading, and I am TOTALLY disagreeing with YOUR OPINION. Opinion? I'm merely saying what's in the book. You're trying to convince me of something. At NO POINT do I see the Dark Elves doing anything 'truly evil' until the last four decades - which is what is stated in the books. You... could not possible be more wrong. 1,100 years before Dark Disaster: Syorpiir razed to the ground. 1,000 years before Dark Disaster: trafficking with demons 700 years before Dark Disaster: Ilythiir attacks its own allies (Keltomir) Furthermore, I have no idea how you came about your idea of "defense," given that, for 1,730 years Ilythiir attacked everyone BUT Aryvandaar, including nations that had nothing to DO with Aryvandaar. If you think that's evil, then that is your opinion. Once they switched over from simple 'defending their own' to covorting with demons and vengeance, then I will agree with you there. And they did that... ONE THOUSAND YEARS before the Dark Disaster. And if YOUR GODDESS tells you to 'watch-out' for some guy, and when he shows up YOU treat him antagonistically, then of course a fight is going to happen! It's called a self-fufilling prophecy, and if Durothil (sp?) hadn't had pre-conceptions thanks to her, then would things have gone differently? Too bad none of the Crown Wars occurred on that basis; too bad, also, that, despite said prophecy one nation (Miyeritar) featured non-dark elves willing to co-exist with dark elves, and another (Keltomir) that was allied with them. I've met plenty of people in my day who called themselves 'satan-worshippers', and they were mostly a bunch of cockamaemee kids listening to Ozzy records. Yeah, because Ozzy fans really wield demonic magic, marshall armies of undead and raze entire realms (again, before the Dark Disaster). :rolleyes: One last thing - not only was there a Crown war BEFORE the dark Elves, but there was one After they left! Which shows that your ideas of favoritism, etc., are out of whack. Quite obviously it wasn't just about dark elves--the rest banded up to punish the Vyshaan as well. How much more could I possibly spell out for you? A lot, I guess, since hardly any of it reconciles with what's in LEoF. Perhaps if WotC didn't have a ban on posting material here, I could go line by line on the timeline and accompanying text, and you could tell me how your dates are so off, and why your ideas don't sound anything like what's given as fact.
Lord Karsus 04-25-07, 07:00 PM	-I was listening to Meatloaf (the singer, not the wad of meat), but as I re-read all of the points made in those posts, I think I'm going to put on some Lennon.
Zandilar 04-25-07, 07:06 PM	Heya, Hmmm, I do, however, think there's a difference between a tragedy (unintended consequences of an epic piece of magic) and tragic villains. In my eyes, it goes like this: 1) 15-22% of dark elves being good guys but caught by the spell: tragic. 2) 78%-85% of dark elves pre- or post-High magic ritual: not tragic villains. Okay, I'll give you that. However, I've always been lead to believe by the lore that the gods of Abeir-Toril are meddlers. Why didn't Corellon meddle here? (I might add, gods move in mysterious ways and we may not always see their reasons for doing something... So we may never know why he allowed the tragedy to occur beyond our own speculations.)
Philalexandros 04-25-07, 07:43 PM	Why didn't Corellon meddle? That's a good question, and I think you nailed it right on the head ("moves mysterious ways"). The closest he comes "meddling" during the Crown Wars is when he convenes the Elven Court... so that the elves can objectively decide for themselves who was wrong and what they should suffer. I'd guess it's ultimately an alignment-based matter. Corellon is kind of the epitomy of CG, which means that he believes in the power of the individual, the concept of choice and free will, and has ultimately good intentions. He operates under the "big kid" rules, where your choices have consequences. We can moan all day about who did what, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that making friends with Balors is rather monumentally bad. Neither is making war on all your neighbors. Both sides got theirs in the end, but, tellingly, Corellon left it up to his people to decide how things would be handled.
Zandilar 04-25-07, 07:56 PM	Heya, RenV: Its not a stupid idea at all - its very close to my own in fact. I think the path to redemption for Lolth lies through Corellon's contrition - not that Corellon is the evil one here (I am going to set down my tongue-in-cheek Lolthian priestess forum persona here) but because Corellon did play a part in Araushnee's fall, however slight, and the only way to get through to Araushee/Lolth is for Corellon to make the first move towards reconciliation. Truth be told, Corellon is the "better" person - Araushnee/Lolth doesn't have it in her to apologize and make up first. So, Corellon will have to be the "bigger" person and do it, even though it really should be Araushnee apologizing to him (though I do hold Corellon partially to blame for the 'break-up' Araushnee/Lolth did the far worse evils obviously). So, the only way I can see this happening (Lolth's redemption) is that Corellon puts himself at Lolth's "mercy" and apologizes - she instinctively takes advantage of it and does horrible things to Corellon, but eventually, is moved by his selfless act and comes around - only after Corellon is "dead" of course. Now, Corellon is a smart guy (despite my earlier allegations of his "air-headedness") and he is going to plan for this - he has to be genuinely sorry for the way things turned out, and his apology has to be genuine also, but that does not mean he needs to totally fall on his sword - so Corellon arranges things so that he does not actually "die" despite Lolth's best attempts. In the end, Lolth "kills" Corellon as he apologizes, only to realize that she was the one in the wrong - at that moment her evil facade crumbles, she laments the evil she has done, breaks down, etc . . . and then Corellon shows up alive (according to plan). She apologizes, he graciously accepts, and drow and elf are united again, more or less (there will always be hold-outs of evil of course, such as those silly ooze-lovers of Ghaunadaur or the undead minions of Kiaransalee or the fiend-touched-and-touching flocks of Fey'ri, but whatever). And thats how it goes. This may offend the sensibility of some pro-elf folks who think that Corellon is perfect and incapable of wrong-doing, and thus should not apologize, but even if his part was small, he still played a part in the failure of his marriage - and since he is the "good" one, its up to him to start the reconciliation, and the only way to do that is to be the one to apologize first. Not like I have any experience with failed relationships or anything . . . **Thumbs through her divorce papers again . . . ** ;) *Zandilar scratches her head as she reads* You know, I'm a big one for the idea of redemption - as Stigger will probably tell you. ;) But Lolth being redeemed by Corellon's apology? Corellon didn't do anything wrong, my reading says it was all Lolth. Lolth wanted to be the head of the elven pantheon. While the accuracy of these words might be questioned given the source, but in Evermeet, Island of Elves, there was this exchange between Corellon and Araushnee. "What is this that you have done?" he said softly, "What could you possibly hope to gain by such actions? If there is anything that you lacked, you only had to speak and I would have given it to you with joy." "Exactly," snarled Araushnee, "You would have given. True power is not given, but seized! As to your 'great gifts,' I held the destinies of mortal beings - but was my own ever mine to command? You treated me like some cherished and cosseted possession, while standing in the way of everything I desired!" You might say the last bit there, being treated like some cherished cosseted possession is the problem - but that would be a matter of interpretation. I doubt Corellon would have done that, being Chaotic as well as Good. He would have given her as much freedom as she wished, and probably more than just that too. No, nothing short of him stepping aside would have satisfied her... And even then, that could be questioned - after all in her own words "True power is not given, but seized!" If Lolth can be redeemed, it will only happen when she admits her failings, asks for forgiveness from all those she betrayed (begging is not required), and finally forgives herself and sets aside the jealousy, anger, and hatred that she bore towards the other elven gods even while she was still Araushnee... However, Lolth being the proud being she is, this is unlikely to ever happen. I believe that Lolth will not find redemption by torturing Corellon, as that is far too close to what she actually desires.
Stigger 04-25-07, 08:00 PM	Nothing is valued so much as something that is worked for. Just having something handed to you tends to lead to contempt eventually. Her sentiments make sense to me really... he held all the power in the Seldarine, and parcelled it out as he saw fit... but what he giveth, he can taketh away. Nothing she had was truly her own in otherwords. And yes, Zandilar is big into redemption... she's kinda weird that way. :tongue: ;)
Philalexandros 04-25-07, 08:09 PM	So, the natural course is turning to demonic/abyssal investment? ;)
Zandilar 04-25-07, 08:12 PM	Heya, Nothing is valued so much as something that is worked for. Just having something handed to you tends to lead to contempt eventually. Her sentiments make sense to me really... he held all the power in the Seldarine, and parcelled it out as he saw fit... but what he giveth, he can taketh away. Nothing she had was truly her own in otherwords. So Araushnee worked for it herself, by betrayal. E:IoE may not be accurate (however, it is canon, like all Realms novels), but her contempt for Corellon dripped from everything she did and said in that novel. Araushnee didn't fall just because her divorce from Corellon went sour. That is just simplifying the whole thing too far, IMHO. And yes, Zandilar is big into redemption... she's kinda weird that way. :tongue: ;) :P Yes, I am very wierd. :D
Mikayla 04-25-07, 08:13 PM	Zand: If Lolth can be redeemed, it will only happen when she admits her failings, asks for forgiveness from all those she betrayed (begging is not required), and finally forgives herself and sets aside the jealousy, anger, and hatred that she bore towards the other elven gods even while she was still Araushnee... However, Lolth being the proud being she is, this is unlikely to ever happen. I agree - but she is never going to do it on her own. Corellon is going to have to be the 'bigger' person and attempt to heal the breach first; he is the one with enough "goodness" to do it - Lolth is selfish, evil, etc. She is not going to make the first move - as for Corellon's apology being the triggering event, well, please give me some credit - my little paragraph description does not do the plot justice - it would have to be fleshed out, appropriate speeches inserted, sacrifices made, revelations revealed, etc. As for it all being on Lolth - well, thats easy to write but not so easy to believe. Relationships have two people in them and they rarely, if ever, go bad all because of one person. "It takes two to tango" as they say. I've read that passage you've quoted as well - its one highly charged conversation at the end of the relationship, not a summary of everything that went on between them. As for the torture - does she really want to torture Corellon? I think her original motivation was to be her own person, achieve her own triumphs, and not live at the whim at of a king or husband. Of course, rather than discuss it with him she choose to betray him - her own feelings of inadequacy resulting in an anger that ends up directed at another - and she makes bad choices. But its just not realistic to believe that one person in a relationship is entirely to blame while the other person is entirely guiltless - of course, the D&D alignment system is not a shining example of realism either, so I suppose if the authors wished, they could, by divine-author fiat, say "its all Araushnee's fault despite the reality of relationships." In which case I would have to cut their hearts out and put them on the altar to Lolth, both for their heresy and their poor writing and poor characterizations.
Mikayla 04-25-07, 08:16 PM	Zand: Araushnee didn't fall just because her divorce from Corellon went sour. That is just simplifying the whole thing too far, IMHO. Hold on now - I never said that. I admitted in my bit about how Lolth could be redeemed, quite expressly, that she was the primary bad actor - I never blamed her evil on the "divorce" - that "divorce" was the product of a failed relationship, not the cause of it! Its everything that led up to the speech you quote I wonder about - why did she become so "contemptuous" of Corellon? Why did she, who had once been his loving wife, turn to hate him so much? Obviously things were not perfect in that relationship leading up to that moment.
Philalexandros 04-25-07, 08:30 PM	She... says why. She wanted power...
Zandilar 04-25-07, 08:48 PM	Heya, I agree - but she is never going to do it on her own. Corellon is going to have to be the 'bigger' person and attempt to heal the breach first; he is the one with enough "goodness" to do it - Lolth is selfish, evil, etc. She is not going to make the first move - as for Corellon's apology being the triggering event, well, please give me some credit - my little paragraph description does not do the plot justice - it would have to be fleshed out, appropriate speeches inserted, sacrifices made, revelations revealed, etc. What, exactly, is Corellon apologising for? It might be he loved her "too" much - but CG is the epitome of "if you love something, set it free". I doubt he was really so overwhelming as Araushnee implies he was. As for it all being on Lolth - well, thats easy to write but not so easy to believe. Relationships have two people in them and they rarely, if ever, go bad all because of one person. "It takes two to tango" as they say. I've read that passage you've quoted as well - its one highly charged conversation at the end of the relationship, not a summary of everything that went on between them. You're right, I agree with you that it really does take two people to make a relationship work (or not). However, we just don't know what went on at all. Not even a little bit. ;) Besides, even with Corellon playing a part in the collapse of their relationship - Araushnee's actions were still way over the top, and she bears the entire responsibility for them. We can't blame Corellon for Araushnee enlisting the aid of demons and dark deities. Nor can we blame Corellon for Araushnee manipulating Vhaeraun and Eilistraee into playing their parts in her plan. As for the torture - does she really want to torture Corellon? I think her original motivation was to be her own person, achieve her own triumphs, and not live at the whim at of a king or husband. Of course, rather than discuss it with him she choose to betray him - her own feelings of inadequacy resulting in an anger that ends up directed at another - and she makes bad choices. But its just not realistic to believe that one person in a relationship is entirely to blame while the other person is entirely guiltless - of course, the D&D alignment system is not a shining example of realism either, so I suppose if the authors wished, they could, by divine-author fiat, say "its all Araushnee's fault despite the reality of relationships." If she didn't want to live at his whim, she could have just left Arvandor, I don't think Corellon would have stopped her (he'd have been grief-stricken, but I doubt he would have forbidden her from leaving). But again, we don't know that is what happened. Araushnee's view of how things were might have been quite distorted by her hatred and jealousy. As I think I mentioned, I just don't see Corellon imposing himself on any deity, let alone one he loved, like that. Remember, he is Chaotic as well as Good. As for realism - I do have to agree with you. In which case I would have to cut their hearts out and put them on the altar to Lolth, both for their heresy and their poor writing and poor characterizations. Poor writing and poor characterizations? In a Forgotten Realms novel? NEVAH!* Hold on now - I never said that. I admitted in my bit about how Lolth could be redeemed, quite expressly, that she was the primary bad actor - I never blamed her evil on the "divorce" - that "divorce" was the product of a failed relationship, not the cause of it! Its everything that led up to the speech you quote I wonder about - why did she become so "contemptuous" of Corellon? Why did she, who had once been his loving wife, turn to hate him so much? Obviously things were not perfect in that relationship leading up to that moment. Okay, that was my bad. I wasn't thinking (I've been awake less than an hour)! All those questions are good questions. But none of them have answers at the moment. Edit: I forgot to mention... We don't even know if the relationship between Corellon and Araushnee was one-sided or not. Araushnee may have seduced Corellon in order to gain power by being his consort, rather than out of any love for Corellon. * Though Elaine Cunningham is one of the more consistant and better writers of Realms fiction, so take that as me being sarcastic about Realms novels in general, and not specifically aimed at E:IoE!
Mikayla 04-25-07, 09:36 PM	Zand: What, exactly, is Corellon apologising for? and then Zand: You're right, I agree with you that it really does take two people to make a relationship work (or not). However, we just don't know what went on at all. Not even a little bit. So, you've answered your own question. We don't know what went on, but we both agree that something must have happened to cause the relationship to fail and that it takes two to make it work or not - even if its 99% Araushnee's fault, Corellon still gets 1%. Anyway, I think we seem to agree on most other points, but sheesh, your post is long. Have you been taking lessons from the boys, like Markus and Phil? Cause if so, you're on your own sister - there is only so much effort I can put into an argument about how many Balors can dance on the head of a pin! I am sure you and I can find some friendly common ground somewhere anyway, even if you are a 'moonie'... ;) **Sends a hug to Zand.**
Philalexandros 04-25-07, 10:11 PM	Doesn't Aurashnee pretty convincingly spell out exactly what "went wrong" with her relationship?
MarkusTay63 04-25-07, 10:56 PM	We both read EXACTLY the same thing (I've read it four times in the last few days) and yet you still insist your interpretation of things is correct. I've met your kind before..... Either that, or your edition of the book doesn't match mine. :P I've made my points, and backed them up from canon, yet you choose to ignore my points and claim I made none. Did you even bother to read my posts concerning Syorpiir? :confused: The United States attacked and took control of TWO soveriegn nations in a 12 month period of time, in BOTH CASES removing the rightful gov't from power and setting up one more to our liking, and in NEITHER CASE, did those two countries attack us or in any way make any threatening overtures! 90% of the terrorists WERE FROM SUDI-ARABIA!!! But we didn't go into saudi-Arabia did we? I guess that makes us whole-heartedly evil... In the REAL WORLD, sometimes you have to attack INNOCENT COUNTRIES in order to get at your enemies... get over it. That's just life, and unfortunately to a militaristic culture (OURS, and the Drow) there is such a thing as 'exceptable losses'. If you want to make an omelet, sometimes you got to break a few eggs. Now, thats not what I believe personally, I happen to be VERY anti-war, but thats just the way of things. I also believe that Drow, REAL DROW from GH, are beyond redemption and unequivocably EVIL. They made war on the gods WITH Lolth, and THEY desrved their fate. These mamby-pamby FR Drow are a bunch of Emo wanna-be's. They didn't make war on the Seldarine... they burned some trees. Oh the horror... oh the inhumanity of it :rolleye2: I did not believe the Drow were anything BUT evil... UNTIL I read all the source material. The more of it I read, the more I see that. I'm truly sorry that you can't see that also...
The Ubbergeek 04-25-07, 11:08 PM	Both FR and GH ahve real drow. The problem is that GH is very much black and white, classical US-style vision of the world. And FR tend to be a wee bit more realistic and grey. Gygax the typical US nerd vs the liberal canadian Greenwood.
Prince Indirian 04-26-07, 12:43 AM	Lloth is alive because CL is a good guy, he still has some love for her, other wise she would be a squashed spider somewhere in the Abyss...dont think otherwise...he is nicer towards her than even Vhaerun. And that is guy we should have some sympathy for. Having a MAD mother and a Dad who pretty much never liked you...poor chap got no love at all...:(. No wonder he is evil...
Zandilar 04-26-07, 01:17 AM	Heya, Anyway, I think we seem to agree on most other points, but sheesh, your post is long. Have you been taking lessons from the boys, like Markus and Phil? Cause if so, you're on your own sister - there is only so much effort I can put into an argument about how many Balors can dance on the head of a pin! I am sure you and I can find some friendly common ground somewhere anyway, even if you are a 'moonie'... ;) **Sends a hug to Zand.** I've always been verbose. ;) But that's probably because "wordsmithing" runs in my family. As for Balors and dancing on pinheads - I think the answer is the same as for Angels. Though I suspect they'd much rather be doing other things, like sticking the pins through something soft and squishy... :evillaugh Our admiration for drow is all the middle ground we need. :D Even though I favor Eilistraee, I'm drawn to the drow in general more so than I am to elves. Probably for similar reasons you are. :) *accepts hug and returns with interest*
GothicDan 04-26-07, 03:05 AM	I did not believe the Drow were anything BUT evil... UNTIL I read all the source material. The more of it I read, the more I see that. I'm truly sorry that you can't see that also... It's pretty clearly defined statistically, and backed by 'fluff': 22% of Drow are Neutral or Good, and the rest are Evil.
Zanan 04-26-07, 01:44 PM	It's pretty clearly defined statistically, and backed by 'fluff': 22% of Drow are Neutral or Good, and the rest are Evil. Are you sure that this ain't 21,5%? ;) ... Remember the days, GD, when we had such lengthy discussions like the folk above? Have been playing a Eldreth Veluthra spellslinger and a wild elf scout/Druid lately and given the resentment of both regarding humans, you no longer need drow to be evi ... mean! Vhaeraun? Spoilt brat personified.
Prince Indirian 04-26-07, 04:18 PM	! Vhaeraun? Spoilt brat personified. Blashpemy...he is anything but spoiled...Lloth and that Kiriansalle (and Eilistarre as well) are bunch of..."Censored":P
Philalexandros 04-26-07, 04:50 PM	I've met your kind before..... Whatever Markus. You go ahead and project whatever you want on to me. I'm not the one trying to revise, reinterpret, and reimagine a fairly cut and dry piece of canon. You're letting your personal tastes get in the way of simple things. I've made my points, and backed them up from canon, yet you choose to ignore my points and claim I made none. Did you even bother to read my posts concerning Syorpiir? :confused: What I remember was your making a number of statements that had nothing to do with the canon facts outlined. At all times, you have done one of two things: 1) Ignored the timeline or attempted to cite it in a completely inaccurate way. EXAMPLE: Trying to assert that the timeline does not show the Ilythiiri doing anything evil more than 40 years before the Dark Disaster. Thats' despite the use of demonic magic and the destruction of entire realms more than a milennium prior to said event. 2) Injected your own opinion while ignoring the canon facts given by the LEoF. EXAMPLE: Your attempt to make Orishaar some sort of legitimate target... despite the fact that LEoF itself states that the premise was weak. 3) Tried to minimize any evidence that didn't work for you. EXAMPLE: Attempting to play off the destruction of two separate, entire realms, one of which being an innocent bystander, a milennium before the Dark Disaster (it was only trees...). Also, trying to reduce their instigation of an entire war, which lasted as long as the First Crown War, to a mere bit of espionage. I could go on, and on, and on. The United States attacked and took control of TWO soveriegn nations in a 12 month period of time, in BOTH CASES removing the rightful gov't from power and setting up one more to our liking, and in NEITHER CASE, did those two countries attack us or in any way make any threatening overtures! 90% of the terrorists WERE FROM SUDI-ARABIA!!! But we didn't go into saudi-Arabia did we? I guess that makes us whole-heartedly evil... You do realize you're making my point for me, right? You just successfully proved that people don't need to be evil to actively support a government engaged in aggressive warfare for premises that could be thought of as weak. I'm sure you meant that this excuses the conduct of the dark elves, but unfortunately they had that whole greed/envy/Lolth/Ghaunadaur thing that eventually turned into a full-on demon fest. I forgot, though--according to you, that's no worse than being into Ozzy. ;) I also believe that Drow, REAL DROW from GH, are beyond redemption and unequivocably EVIL. They made war on the gods WITH Lolth, and THEY desrved their fate. These mamby-pamby FR Drow are a bunch of Emo wanna-be's. They didn't make war on the Seldarine... they burned some trees. Yeah, OK! :rolleyes: Turned their back to the Seldarine? Check. Destroy entire nations? Check. Scare the jeebus out of everyone? Check.
Stigger 04-26-07, 05:10 PM	1) Ignored the timeline or attempted to cite it in a completely inaccurate way. 2) Injected your own opinion while ignoring the canon facts given by the LEoF. That inaccuracy only stems from a particular interpretation. It's not the only interpretation of the material presented possible. Our interpretations of that material can't help but be shaped by our opinions, and those facts are worded inaccurately enough to allow for more than one read on them. The writing isn't nearly as black and white as you seem to be representing it as. You seem to be basing a lot off of 'current' elven norms, but we have no idea if that's the case with their society or not. Given the implied social structure during the period, I think its extremely reasonable to say we're dealing with very different elves than exist on Faerun today... which kinda tosses a lot of what we know about elves out the window, if you see where I'm going with that.
Philalexandros 04-26-07, 05:51 PM	Stigger, I simply fail to see how the following words are either inaccurate or not black-and-white: "... one elf subrace became so twisted by evil that it was divorced from the light of day." "Meanwhile, supposedly* in retaliation for Aryvandaar's aggression ... [the Ilythiiri] rose up and attacked their nearest enemies in the smaller kingdom of Orishaar." "The stated premise for the conflict was weak..." "... it was initially seen as a thinly veiled excuse ... to seize some land for the Moon Elves*..." "Ilythiir's savage attack wiped out Thearnytaar, Eieluur, Syorpiir, ... and the dark elves continued to conduct brutal raids against the elves of Keltormiir for the next twelve hundred years." "Guided by their demonic patrons, the Ilythiiri came to relish torture and warfare, and to despise the elven ideals..." "Even the peaceful Moon Elves of Keltormir were increasingly horrified by their erstwhile brethren's* actions..." * emphasis mine All of the above are from the canon text describing events between the beginning of the First Crown War and going to seven hundred years prior to the Dark Disaster. Prior. Now it's your turn. Show me, using canon text, the equivalency for the Aryvandaari Sun Elves prior to Malkizid. I can't imagine that any would be lacking if, in fact, the Aryvandaari Sun Elves in general were anywhere near as bad as their Ilythiiri cousins. I'm pretty sure all that you'll find is the description of a subrace of non-demon worshippers being led to war by an ambitious ruling family. Hardly the same thing.
Stigger 04-26-07, 07:46 PM	Stigger, I simply fail to see how the following words are either inaccurate or not black-and-white: I never sqaid they were inaccurate, simply open to interpretation... "... one elf subrace became so twisted by evil that it was divorced from the light of day." Not much point to arguing that one since we already know the outcome. However, that divorce had massive unforseen side effects. Which would suggest that either Corellon was acting in a remarkably capriciuos manner and just booting his formers lovers children from his sight, or that some outside force interferred. Or, perhaps, the hearts of the ones doing the actual divorcing were far from pure and filled with vengeance, so their own feelings twisted the magic. Since we don't have a definitive answer as to why it went wrong, only supposition, I do feel that is open to interpretation. "Meanwhile, supposedly* in retaliation for Aryvandaar's aggression ... [the Ilythiiri] rose up and attacked their nearest enemies in the smaller kingdom of Orishaar." Not sure how that would qualify as black and white. That was the reason they gave, the supposedly simply qualifies that it was possibly not the entire story, not that it was an outright falsehood. Nothing concrete there that I can see... "The stated premise for the conflict was weak..." According to whom? The connection between Orishaar and Aryvandaar was weak, sure. The connection between Ilythiir and Miyeritar was weak. But... consider that most credible sources say the connection between Al-Quada and Iraq was weak and essentially concocted out of fabricated evidence that's been largely proven as such... and yet we invaded anyway. One wonders what that says about the US. So they went on a land grab... so what? Aryvandaar wasn't going on land grabs at the time? How does that make them any worse, considering the probably questionability of Aryvandaars claim on Miyeritars throne? "... it was initially seen as a thinly veiled excuse ... to seize some land for the Moon Elves*..." See above. That escalation there came about by the Ilythiiri's destruction of a non-combatant nation (presumably, but I could see cause to doubt that), though the burning of Syorpiir is never qualified as having been intentional, simply that it happened. Could very well have been an inadvertant forest fire for all we know of the matter. "Ilythiir's savage attack wiped out Thearnytaar, Eieluur, Syorpiir, ... and the dark elves continued to conduct brutal raids against the elves of Keltormiir for the next twelve hundred years." Syorpiir we don't have much information about... however Thearnytaar and Eieluur both were the aggressors during that conflict. They lost, and paid for that aggression, a bit excessively, but they did start it, and the Ilythiiri finished it. How they interpreted those two attacks on them we don't know, but presumably they assumed they were acting as proxies for the Aryvandaarans. "Guided by their demonic patrons, the Ilythiiri came to relish torture and warfare, and to despise the elven ideals..." And this is the point at which their corruption began to seriously take root. In accordance with the storyline, it had to happen sometime, was as good a time as any. "Even the peaceful Moon Elves of Keltormir were increasingly horrified by their erstwhile brethren's* actions..." Which was stated after the corruption had set in... this is surprising how? All of the above are from the canon text describing events between the beginning of the First Crown War and going to seven hundred years prior to the Dark Disaster. Prior. Now it's your turn. Show me, using canon text, the equivalency for the Aryvandaari Sun Elves prior to Malkizid. I can't imagine that any would be lacking if, in fact, the Aryvandaari Sun Elves in general were anywhere near as bad as their Ilythiiri cousins. I'm pretty sure all that you'll find is the description of a subrace of non-demon worshippers being led to war by an ambitious ruling family. Hardly the same thing. I see them as essentially the same thing in the beginning. Both of them were ambitious, were adept at coming up with excuses for land grabs (first paragraph on page 53 explicitly says it was an excuse, not a legitimate claim). Sure the Sun Elves were a bit more patient, but they still invaded once it became clear they weren't going to get their way... sounds a lot like the beginning of the corruption to me. And we have no idea what methods they used to attempt to pacify and suppress the native insurgency... presumably they couldn't have been too gentle about it if they needed occupational forts and eventually resorted to the Dark Disaster. The dust hadn't even settled before they were planning similar invasions of Shantel Othrier, and bringing pressure to bear to force a political annexation, without much pretense this time by the looks of it. Sure they were patient about annexing Shantel Othrier, but they had their armies hands full with a pacification campaign, so another invasion likely wasn't feasible at that point. 400 years after semi-pacifying Miyeritar, they feel they can pull the bulk of their armies out of Miyeritar and launch the invasion of Shantel Othrier... which an orc horde promptly interrupts. Not that they let that stop their conquest after much more than a pause, and opportunistically took the initiative and established a stronghold, and eventually conquered Shantel Othrier a century later, which seems to spark resistance movements in both Miyeritar and Shantel Othrier... so they come up with the Dark Disaster as a good solution to the problem in Miyeritar, after having eliminated any High Mage in the area they could find so that it couldn't be countered or dispelled. Which eventually of course it was, at the cost of Miyeritars last three High Mages and 90 dark elf wizards... I could go on, but I'm running out of time for the moment. Were they as bad as the Ilythiiri? No, of course not, but they deserved a wee tiny bit more punishment than they deserved, in my opinion anyway. Those soldiers doing the invading and occupation weren't exactly innocents in all of it. Were they as brutal as the Ilythiiri, not as far as we know. Were they gentle conquerers who just wanted to make friends and bring glorious civilization? Hard to swallow after they unleashed the Dark Disaster. But Gold Elves aren't really into the obvious savagery, they prefer more subtle methods of evil, at least if the EV is any indication of their preferred methods of operation. Just because you can't see it, it doesn't mean the evil isn't there. Certainly there's not much in the way of written lore to indicate that, but its certainly implied in a lot of respects, if one thinks about things like the Vyshaan, the Dark Disaster, the Eldreth Veluthra, their extensive group of sympathizers... Were they as bad as the Ilythiiri? Almost certainly not, but not by much of a margin. And before you even say it, no, those are not specific passages or quotes. In and of themselves there are not many that are specifically condemning of the Aryvandaarans. But taken as a whole, and in context with Aryvandaar's premeditated method of unleashing the Killing Storm on the world, the picture becomes a bit darker, and while I could cobble together a series of passages, I don't really feel like putting that much effort into it when we both have the same books.
Prince Indirian 04-26-07, 09:01 PM	I just want to add that according to Cormanthyr, Orishaar or whatever was a MAJOR trade ally...but hey...
Philalexandros 04-26-07, 09:46 PM	I never sqaid they were inaccurate, simply open to interpretation... You used the word "inacurracy"; I responded to it. Which would suggest that either Corellon was acting in a remarkably capriciuos manner and just booting his formers lovers children from his sight, ... Based on what evidence? ... or that some outside force interferred. Or, perhaps, the hearts of the ones doing the actual divorcing were far from pure and filled with vengeance, so their own feelings twisted the magic. Since we don't have a definitive answer as to why it went wrong, only supposition, I do feel that is open to interpretation. Neither your process nor your conclusions are objective, though. No offense, but throughout this debate I've noticed the tendency to downplay or even ignore the cited, stated instances of Ilythiiri doing horrible things and the playing up of *possible* wrongdoing on the part of the surface elves despite a lack of *any* evidence for support. Put bluntly, why would, in a product that basically answers questions and assigns blame, the developers eschew any damning guilt on the part of the Elven Court? Not sure how that would qualify as black and white. That was the reason they gave, the supposedly simply qualifies that it was possibly not the entire story, not that it was an outright falsehood. Nothing concrete there that I can see... Stigger... If I punched someone in the face and then someone who magically knew the truth behind the entire affair said that I *supposedly* did it because he called me names, what does this imply? We're getting to the point now where the opposing POV is pulling every desperate thread of the English language to make an argument. I hate to say this, but to get you guys to accept something as fact, the most banal, robotic form of Queen's English would have to be used--no adjectives, no adverbs, no nothing but nouns and verbs. ;) According to whom? Why, according to the game developers. The point I'm making is that both Aryvandaar and Ilythiir went on a land-grab... but ONLY the Ilythiiri are described as succumbing to corruption and demonic evil. See above. That escalation there came about by the Ilythiiri's destruction of a non-combatant nation (presumably, but I could see cause to doubt that), .... That line was about Orishaar. ... though the burning of Syorpiir is never qualified as having been intentional, simply that it happened. Could very well have been an inadvertant forest fire for all we know of the matter. No, Stigger, it wasn't. They burnt it to the ground during a "savage attack." You can't dance out of this one citing word choice. ;) Syorpiir we don't have much information about... however Thearnytaar and Eieluur both were the aggressors during that conflict. Yeah, after Syorpiir was destroyed... They lost, and paid for that aggression, a bit excessively, but they did start it, and the Ilythiiri finished it. How they interpreted those two attacks on them we don't know, but presumably they assumed they were acting as proxies for the Aryvandaarans. No, you assume that--without evidence, and despite the fact that any such associations are qualified elsewhere but not here. There's simply no room whatsoever to lay that kind of conjecture down. Precedent has been established, and it would make no sense for the developers to mention Orishaar as a trading partner of no real import but to fail to mention two aggressor nations acting in proxy. That's silly! Were they as bad as the Ilythiiri? Almost certainly not, but not by much of a margin. But, despite your eloquent summary, no evidence exists to support that. In a document used to outline the actual villains and culprits of the Crown Wars, the Aryvandaari populace escapes without condemnation from the developers. My friend, that does not pass "the sniff test." :) As far as the Dark Disaster goes, the fact remains that the Aryvandaari themselves knew not who unleashed it. It was not unleashed until after Malkizid corrupted the Vyshaan. I rest my case.
Philalexandros 04-26-07, 09:56 PM	I just want to add that according to Cormanthyr, Orishaar or whatever was a MAJOR trade ally...but hey... Insofar as military capabilities, though, Aryvandaar was the northernmost elven kingdom. Orishaar was south of the Lake of Steam. Given this and the LEoF text, is anyone still seriously asserting the dark elves were serious here? They were stated enemies, and they had been skirmishing for 7,000 years. The Ilythiir wanted a land-grab, and every canon source has said exactly that. Why hold on to an excuse that is described as just that? Incidentally, the same document you cited states that Orishaar had little to do with a war that was nowhere near it to begin with.
MarkusTay63 04-27-07, 12:01 AM	Actually, NO source states that the Illythiir EVER occupied any of the lands they conquered, so who is 'reading-into' the text now? It SPECIFICALLY states that Orishaar was a trading partner of, and therefore in league with, Arvyandaar. Everything Arvyandaar did was to 'take-over' other Elven domains and increase their power. If the Illythiir NEVER, EVER occupied anyplace they crushed, then obviously they were not acting out of GREED, as were the northern Gold Elves. So now we must look further afield for 'reason behind their madness'. Oh wait... that's right... SOURCE gives us one! :D Aren't we lucky? It says right there in black and white that Illythiir attacked Orishaar as revenge for what happened to Miyeritar. Why... that's almost noble... What of Syorpiir you ask? Well, given the obvious militery genius of the Illythiir Elves they quickly deduced that the three OTHER local Elven cultures would unite and attack them (hence, their espionage years before to sabotage such 'alliances'). In the end, the Illythiir were once again proven correct in their assumptions, when both Thearnytaar AND Eiellūr INVADED ILLYTHIIR, with help from Keltormir AND Shantel Othreier!!! (GHotR, pg.15) It was called The Sable Wars, and Illythiir was attacked by forces from no less then FOUR Elven Nations! But gueess what? They still kicked YOUR _ss. ;) After all, they were only MERE Gold and Silver Elves, going up against the MIGHTY, NOBLE (:P ) Dark Elves (with some help from green Elves, I might add, so how 'evil' could they have been at THIS point in time, Hmmm?) I still say Dark Elves saved the world. :dancin: :cheer: Yes, my army of minions are growing as we speak, young Jedi.... :emp: :pile::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:
GothicDan 04-27-07, 01:35 AM	Actually, NO source states that the Illythiir EVER occupied any of the lands they conquered, so who is 'reading-into' the text now? It SPECIFICALLY states that Orishaar was a trading partner of, and therefore in league with, Arvyandaar. Everything Arvyandaar did was to 'take-over' other Elven domains and increase their power. If the Illythiir NEVER, EVER occupied anyplace they crushed, then obviously they were not acting out of GREED, as were the northern Gold Elves. LEoF states that, after Ilythiir's royal house's demonic corruption, the other houses started to turn to demonic patronage in an attempt to gain enough power to set up their own domains in the land they had newly acquired via war. Having your opinion is cool and all, but what is even cooler is taking into account all of the facts before making that opinion! While you may find this all immensely amusing and cute, some of us are trying to ACTUALLY objectively debate the matter in an adult fashion. Note that I'm not trying to be insulting when I say this, but rather I say it because it seems like you're more interested in solely representing an iconoclast propagandist view rather than actually having a meaningful debate of canon; and if that's the case, there's no point in any of us continuing this discussion, since your opinion (the one you're espousing here, at least) doesn't actually have anything to do with factual evidence. And if you ARE being serious (which the multiple use of emoticons, hyperbole, etc. would obfuscate), then... I'm utterly dumbfounded as to the way your mind parses English text.
BrennonGoldeye 04-27-07, 07:27 AM	Hmm. This has gotten a tad bit insulting, with obvious intent. Somewhere Lolth giggles away. Be nice guys and gals. Either that or I will summon more emoticons.
GothicDan 04-27-07, 07:52 AM	I will say, again, just to preemptively defend myself, I was NOT trying to be insulting. I genuinely like Markus a lot, in fact... He just seems to have been devolving into genuine silliness and sort of obstinant immaturity on this subject. Again, I'm not sure if he's doing this on purpose, to try to lighten the mood and just support the underdog or not, but I SINCERELY want to know what's going on with his intent. Because if he's NOT joking around, I with all due respect will stop arguing with him on this particular topic, since it's obvious that our modi operendorum are so vastly disconnected that nothing I say will affect his stance. And I don't like wasting time on discussions that do nothing but antagonize the debaters!
Stigger 04-27-07, 10:19 AM	You used the word "inacurracy"; I responded to it. Actually, you used the word inaccuracy up there first, which I was referring to when I used that particular choice of words, but that's really besides the point. Based on what evidence? Based on nothing to the contrary... we have zero evidence as to why the banishment of the drow occurred the way it did, so any bit of supposition is as good as another, in the absence of concrete evidence. Some theories hold more weight than others, but given his apparent approval of the Dark Disaster spell, why not assign some measure of capriciousness and favoratism to him? Neither your process nor your conclusions are objective, though. No offense, but throughout this debate I've noticed the tendency to downplay or even ignore the cited, stated instances of Ilythiiri doing horrible things and the playing up of *possible* wrongdoing on the part of the surface elves despite a lack of *any* evidence for support. Put bluntly, why would, in a product that basically answers questions and assigns blame, the developers eschew any damning guilt on the part of the Elven Court? When did I claim to be coming from an objective point of view. That previous mention I made of interpreting the data from as advantageous a view to they Ilythiiri should have made that abundantly clear, though I think that was in the other thread. ;) As to the Elven Court and their judgements... we don't know if they were wrong or not. It's obviously stated that the Vyshaan had spies amongst it, and we have no idea if they had enough influence to mitigate the worst of their judgements or not. It doesn't explicitly say that they did, but by the same token, they do not state that they don't either. We know they have spies and informants, so I don't think its too much of a stretch to say they could have shifted that final judgement some in their own favor. Stigger... If I punched someone in the face and then someone who magically knew the truth behind the entire affair said that I *supposedly* did it because he called me names, what does this imply? We're getting to the point now where the opposing POV is pulling every desperate thread of the English language to make an argument. I hate to say this, but to get you guys to accept something as fact, the most banal, robotic form of Queen's English would have to be used--no adjectives, no adverbs, no nothing but nouns and verbs. ;) Nothing should ever be accepted as 'fact' without thorough analysis and thought. There is nothing desperate about my arguements, I haven't even called to bear everything I see in the interest of saving my fingers. The entire bloody point is that this event occurred tens of thousands of years ago, and all we have is a few pages to pass judgement on two peoples with. Of course that information can be torn apart by how its interpreted... you'd be hard pressed to avoid that. And personally, I say the language is intentionally vague to allow DM's to wrangle whatever meaning they want out of it, within certain guidelines. That's the part you don't seem to be getting about my points there. Why, according to the game developers. The point I'm making is that both Aryvandaar and Ilythiir went on a land-grab... but ONLY the Ilythiiri are described as succumbing to corruption and demonic evil. As a whole, yes, but both of their leaders went down that same path. And there is no mention of whether or not the Elven Court ever knew about Malkazids involvement or not. Presuming that they didn't, we cannot know what their judgement would have been had they known the Vyshaans were neck deep in league with one of the Seldarines foes. They Ilythiiri made no secret out of their corruption, and I can respect that more than a bunch of others who are just as corrupt and yet don't have the guts to actually show that they are. Honest psychopath versus the corrupt paragon of virtue thing... That line was about Orishaar. Not really sure what that was getting at to be honest... given the context, I was referring to all of the southern campaigns that occurred prior to Aryvandaar and Ilythiir meeting. No, Stigger, it wasn't. They burnt it to the ground during a "savage attack." You can't dance out of this one citing word choice. ;) Of course I can, the attack on Syorpiir was never qualified one way or another. You could extend that the savage attack applied to its destruction, but that's just as much sophistry as saying that it didn't in the face of clear evidence one way or another. It was destroyed, period, that's all we really know. Yeah, after Syorpiir was destroyed... Your point being? I already mentioned I'm interpreting this in the most advantageous to Ilythiir manner I can. According to the words used, that means nothing. No, you assume that--without evidence, and despite the fact that any such associations are qualified elsewhere but not here. There's simply no room whatsoever to lay that kind of conjecture down. Precedent has been established, and it would make no sense for the developers to mention Orishaar as a trading partner of no real import but to fail to mention two aggressor nations acting in proxy. That's silly! Unfortunately, C:EoE mentions Orishaar as a major trading partner of Aryvandaars... and LEoF does not qualify that it was 'minor' as you suggested, simply that it was not military, which says that they wouldn't go to war for each other, not that they weren't supplying war materials. Was just that sort of definition that allowed the Lend-Lease Act. ;) So the logistical strike arguement definitely holds at least some water their. Its a militarily valid target, and I think it makes sense to presume that Syorpiir had something to do with it on some level, enough involvement to give Ilythiir a reason to attack, unless you're suggesting that the Ilythiiri were fully corrupted by Lolth at this point, which her later sending of Wendonai doesn't support much. It was destroyed... we have no idea if Ilythiirs aggressively attacked, accidentally destroyed in it their eagerness to vanquish Orishaar, or what. Their actions were characterized as savage... but that can mean a lot of different things, reckless among them. Ah, just noticed your response down there about this stuff... and I'd disagree with your assessment. Take out the guy supplying your enemy, in this case Aryvandaar, to deny them materials for their war against your friends in Miyeritar. Flimsy, sure, but no more flimsy than going through history books and geneaologies to find some excuse to invade your neighbor. No worse than anything the Aryvandaarans did. But, despite your eloquent summary, no evidence exists to support that. In a document used to outline the actual villains and culprits of the Crown Wars, the Aryvandaari populace escapes without condemnation from the developers. My friend, that does not pass "the sniff test." :) See my point about the Elven Court above... I think I addressed it well enough up there. As far as the Dark Disaster goes, the fact remains that the Aryvandaari themselves knew not who unleashed it. It was not unleashed until after Malkizid corrupted the Vyshaan. I rest my case. Pity, I was just starting to really have fun with this. Hopefully, you'll reopen it later. ;) Though on the point of the Dark Disaster... the historians among the Aryvandaarans must have know something, or been told something in order to squarely place the blame on the Miyeritarans for the Dark Disaster being unleashed. With the assassination of all those High Mages in the months leading up to it, news would have spread to at least somewhere with the survivors (which I think is self-evident when the remaining High Mages and those 90 dark elf wizards showed up to try to put an end to the Killing Storm), and that two and two would have been put together to realize that Miyeritar couldn't have been behind it, unless Aryvandaar was actively spinning the story to say they were taking it upon themselves to kill them all before they could unleash it... which suggests far more insidious evil than other interpretations of it. At the very least they were heavily into revisionism... which casts even more doubt on their spurious claims on Miyeritar's throne. Certainly, I'll admit I'm not being objective about this. Nor do I have to be. Nor does the material force me to be, by its somewhat vague nature. It leaves certain points open to interpretation, which I still maintain is purposeful, and so I'm taking advantage of that to promote a certain point of view. Which, while not purely 'objective', whatever that really means, is no less valid an interpretation, as this stuff is ancient history and all the facts are not known. We know that Aryvandaar was adept at manipulating history to their own ends, whos to say that they haven't manipulated the official histories as far as they are known to something more advantageous to themselves. That certainly wouldn't be out of line with their patron Malkazid. To the point of the four Southern Kingdoms being destroyed... Markus' interpretation does seem kinda enthusiastic, even to me. Having said that, I'll avoid getting into that until I see a more 'official' version of GHotR regarding the period. Perhaps that will shed a bit more light on the subject and settle this one way or another. I'm not holding my breath, but I may just be surprised by it. :)
Suin Bahhar 04-27-07, 11:46 AM	Very interesting indeed. Maybe an annoying question but..: Say 18000 years for the Dark Disaster the Dark Elves used to revere mostly Sehanine Moonbow and Aurushnee (according to 2ed Cormanthor). At this time the dark elves were mostly southern CN-like woodwarriors who did nothing evil. Which Seldarine had the foresight to give a warning the dark elves would be corrupted? Was it Sehanine? Isn't she Correllons consort now? Would have been a nice move of her to get back at Aurushnee: first let Correllon kick out Aurushnee then damn her people, al the while Sehanine is there to support her lover. As for the Iron Pit, Athamault, its construction was during, before or after the First Crown War? This would be important to determine the architecture; blending the changes the Illithiiri underwent from noble warriorculture to depraved demonic worship to a fully active anti-seldarine and anti-elf sentiment society. The dark elves lived evilly ever after for 6000 years before the Dark Disaster? They started worship of Ghaunadar, then fallen Aurushnee.
Stigger 04-27-07, 11:56 AM	Athamault was built druing the second Crown War. Most other structures seem to have been built shortly before the Descent, according to page 58 on LEoF, at least the ones which survived. That supports my view that they weren't completely corrupted until Wendonai arrived, at least I think it does. Nothing says they were evil per se, simply savage, with edging towards evil. Didn't take much to get them to go all the way into evil, but up until Wendonai, I'd say they weren't there quite yet, though well on their way.
Mikayla 04-27-07, 12:38 PM	**Giggles.** :devil:
MarkusTay63 04-27-07, 03:16 PM	Very interesting indeed. Maybe an annoying question but..: Say 18000 years for the Dark Disaster the Dark Elves used to revere mostly Sehanine Moonbow and Aurushnee (according to 2ed Cormanthor). At this time the dark elves were mostly southern CN-like woodwarriors who did nothing evil. Which Seldarine had the foresight to give a warning the dark elves would be corrupted? Was it Sehanine? Isn't she Correllons consort now? Would have been a nice move of her to get back at Aurushnee: first let Correllon kick out Aurushnee then damn her people, al the while Sehanine is there to support her lover. The dark elves lived evilly ever after for 6000 years before the Dark Disaster? They started worship of Ghaunadar, then fallen Aurushnee.Excellent points, although I do not believe it to be true I have proposed something similar when I mentioned Eielistraee's warnings to the Gold Elves. It is clear that the Seldarine did not like Auraushnee's children, and pitted their people against them from the very beginning. However, like I said, I do not think that happened; the Seldarine just aren't clever enough for that sort of subterfuge. @Dan - Dan, I like and respect you, and you have made very valid and good points (as have the rest of us). No matter how much we debate I would still buy you a beer. :D On the other hand, Phil has time and again insulted most of us without even trying. That is why some of my posts are filled with 'wimsy'... I'm trying to 'cool-off' and not post anything insulting or mean. Here's the truth of it, plain and simple. A BUNCH of us here (maybe a dozen?) have read the CANON material and see one picture of the events. Two or more of you have read it and see something different. I can accept that, so can Stigger and others. I think even Dan would agree that people can 'fill-in the blanks' with their own interpretations, since enough holes are left in the source materials so that people can put their own 'spin' on events for their individual campaigns. According to Phil, we don't even HAVE opinions! That's just insulting! He is reading into events as much of the rest of us, but then denies it and claims that "his way is the right way". Why? Because he says it is so? If we are all reading the same material (and many of us pro-drow are reading more then just LEoF), and he claims we are wrong, then he is stating that we are either illiterate or stupid. So which is it? :ahem: I come across many of his 'conclusions' tainted by his veiws, yet he decries them as facts. I can't go back through the thread, but here's one EXCELLENT example of you guys 'reading-into' what is written in source <aberrant text highlighted> Insofar as military capabilities, though, Aryvandaar was the northernmost elven kingdom. Orishaar was south of the Lake of Steam. Given this and the LEoF text, is anyone still seriously asserting the dark elves were serious here? They were stated enemies, and they had been skirmishing for 7,000 years. The Ilythiir wanted a land-grab, and every canon source has said exactly that. Why hold on to an excuse that is described as just that?Several times anti-Illythiir have pointed out that particular line in the book, and have decided that this situation whole-heartedly exists because of the Dark Elves! It NEVER, EVER says WHY they were enemies in the first place, so PLEASE keep YOUR opinions out of it! It never states why the Elves of Illythiir did what they did against those three kingdoms during the Sable Wars, but let’s look at the FACTS, shall we? The Dark Elves co-existed peacefully with the Sylvan Elves of Abeir-Toril for centuries, perhaps millennia, BEFORE the coming of the Gold and Silver. No where in canon is there ever a mention of ANY dispute before the war in Fäerie, a war involving Gold and Silver Elves mind you, and they DESTROYED their own civilization (sound familiar?). Then the invaders arrived on Toril – (Evermeet, pg.85-86) “There are other worlds, and many are the Elves who inhabit them,” the Goddess said, She laughed at the stunned expression that fell over Kymil’s face. “You Faerie Elves are so enamored of yourselves, so determined to think you are the only people alive, that you have forgotten your own history.” She sneered, “You came to Toril as invaders, more then willing to displace those who came before. Do you think you are the only Elves so minded?” Kymil struggled with the task of wrapping his mind around this possibility. “Gold Elves?” he asked tentatively. Lolth laughed again, delightedly and derisively. “Ah, but you are priceless – and predictable. Yes, there are Gold Elves upon other worlds. I have prepared some of them for you. Come and see.” Of course, the Gold Elf takes the deal and attempts to DESTROY HIS OWN PEOPLE, but then again, that is a trait of ALL Elves, isn’t it? :smirk: So, when YOU read that they were enemies, you INFERE that it was Ilythiir’s fault, even though the Dark Elves had no previous antagonistic tendencies, the ones displayed by the invaders. Who's to say that the lands belonging to Syņrpiir, Thearnytaar, and Eiellūr didn’t originally belong to the Illythiir, who were the original inhabitants of the region? We don’t know what races lived in those kingdoms, but we do know that the Green Elves sided with the Dark Elves against them(canon, once again), which would indicate that they were amongst the other sub-races who came later. Could it be, that both the dark and Green Elves were tired of getting pushed around by these new comers? It would certainly seem so, given the facts. Before the destruction of Tintageer there are no known Elven wars on Abeir-Toril, but when the warmongers from Fäerie showed up, all of a sudden some peoples became ‘enemies’. Perhaps, they had brought their pre-conditioned dislike of the dark Elves former patroness Auraushnee with them? So what I am saying is that the Gold Elves arrived in Toril and claimed it for themselves (they even had the hubris to rename the place, and that is once again CANON), despite the fact that there were already dozens of sentient species already living there. And of course, the first thing they did was make war with the native species; is it any wonder that they drew the ire of the Dark Elves? Not to mention the Dragons, Giants, etc…. Some of what I have stated above was conjecture, BASED ON FACTS, but none of it goes against canon material, so please stop with that silly argument already. It is far more believable then what you propose, that the formally peaceful Illythiir turned into blood-crazed lunatics, while the invaders fleeing from their own self-caused holocaust showed up and changed their evil ways. So which one of is REALLY twisting facts, hmmmm? Incidentally, the same document you cited states that Orishaar had little to do with a war that was nowhere near it to begin with.I’ve addressed this three times already, stop asking the same questions. It says right in Cormanthor that Orishaar was a trading partner of Aryvandaar. Having had enough, the Illythiir just lashed out at the nearest target. No one is saying this was right or good Phil, just a military decision made by a people at the end of their rope. You can claim what I say is not canon, just opinion, but yours is no less so. No one is saying that Drow are not evil; what we are trying to get across to you people is that perhaps the Illythiir started out with the best intentions. Is terrorism evil? Living in NY I can honestly tell you “YOU BET YOUR SWEET _SS IT IS! But what about the terrorist, misguided as they are? How does an obviously out-numbered and out-gunned people defy a mighty nation like the U.S.? The only way they can, by scaring the Beejezus out of us and committing un-speakable acts. I am not advocating such baviour, BTW, merely pointing it out. I just don’t make the same interpretation as you pro-Gold folks; I see a proud people backed into a corner, forced to commit atrocities and ally with evil beings just to have a fighting chance from the land-grabbing invaders from another world. Stop saying YOUR interpretation is the ONLY one, because it isn’t. At least we pro-Illythiir types are willing to admit no one knows for sure. If WotC came out with something that said the Dark Elves had been plotting against the light Elves since the dawn of time, and that all of those nations attacked contained Elves OTHER THEN Gold and Silver, then I would except the facts and consider them ‘evil from the beginning’. At least I’m willing to wait until the full story unfolds. And please don’t hit me with dates again, you’re boring me to tears. Time does not mean the same thing to Elves as it does to us – you yourself have pointed that out in another thread, Phil. Devide everything by ten if you want a rough human equivalent of the time frames involved. Bottom line – Drow ARE evil, but the Dark Elves were not necessarily so. Even using your figures (what was it, 20%?), should all of the millions of Dark Elves be punished because of the action for the other 80%? Perhaps 80% of all Muslim people hate the U.S., so does that give us the right to condemn every man, woman, and child… guilty or not? Of course it doesn't, but we are smart enough to try to re-educate them, not curse them for all eternity. Those would not be the actions of a 'civilized' people. The actions of the Gold Elves have always spoken for themselves, the Illythiir are just a ‘blip’ in the history books. I had more, but now I lost my train of thought again….
GothicDan 04-27-07, 03:21 PM	I’ve addressed this three times already, stop asking the same questions. It says right in Cormanthor that Orishaar was a trading partner of Aryvandaar. Having had enough, the Illythiir just lashed out at the nearest target. No one is saying this was right or good Phil, just a military decision made by a people at the end of their rope. You can claim what I say is not canon, just opinion, but yours is no less so. I think what he's saying is that the Ilythiiri decision was not a truly a military one made that had anything to actually do with Orishaar. As I've pointed out, they were already "enemies" before the Crown Wars started (see LEoF), and they only used it is an excuse to indulge their desires to take control of Moon Elven land (also in LEoF). It would have had little to no effect on Aryvandaar's actual martial strength. No one is saying that Drow are not evil; what we are trying to get across to you people is that perhaps the Illythiir started out with the best intentions. Is terrorism evil? Living in NY I can honestly tell you “YOU BET YOUR SWEET _SS IT IS! But what about the terrorist, misguided as they are? How does an obviously out-numbered and out-gunned people defy a mighty nation like the U.S.? The only way they can, by scaring the Beejezus out of us and committing un-speakable acts. I am not advocating such baviour, BTW, merely pointing it out. Where do you get the idea that Ilythiir was in any way outgunned and outmanned to the point of needing to fall to demonic worship? The novel Evermeet gives a picture of an Ilythiir already settled and well-versed in Elven High Magic before even Prince Durothil visited (and thus before Aryvandaar arose). I think even Dan would agree that people can 'fill-in the blanks' with their own interpretations, since enough holes are left in the source materials so that people can put their own 'spin' on events for their individual campaigns. For making our opinions? Sure. For discussion of canon material ONLY? Most certainly not. Canon doesn't mean making things up as you see fit to support your view or take away from the others. I am trying very hard to be neutral in this discussion, personally. And Phil has NEVER been 'Pro-Gold Elf.' You seem to be slapping that term onto him for no reason other than to try to in some way sully his actual impartiality, which thus far has been nothing but directly analytical and logical. So what I am implying is that the Gold Elves arrived in Toril and claimed it for themselves (they even had the hubris to rename the place, and that is once again CANON), despite the fact that there were already dozens of sentient species already living there.' Zomg, different people naming the same thing different things! THE HUMANITY! If WotC came out with something that said the Dark Elves had been plotting against the light Elves since the dawn of time, and that all of those nations attacked contained Elves OTHER THEN Gold and Silver, then I would except the facts and consider them ‘evil from the beginning’. At least I’m willing to wait until the full story unfolds. So basically, you're going to demand something that will NEVER be possibly forthcoming from WotC (who has no interest in such vague historical/mythological/metaphorical details that aren't directly applicable to game play) before even considering your interpretation of canon to be wrong? That sounds pretty safe to me. And I'll also note that Shantel Othreier in Cormanthyr is stated as having Wood Elves in it. Why do ALL of those other nations have to include Wood Elves? Bottom line – Drow ARE evil, but the Dark Elves were not necessarily so. Even using your figures (what was it, 20%?), should all of the millions of Dark Elves be punished because of the action for the other 80%? Perhaps 80% of all Muslim people hate the U.S., so does that give us the right to condemn every man, woman, and child… guilty or not? Of course it doesn't, but we are smart enough to try to re-educate them, not curse them for all eternity. Those would not be the actions of a 'civilized' people. The actions of the Gold Elves have always spoken for themselves, the Illythiir are just a ‘blip’ in the history books. It's statements like this that make me question whether or not you're actually reading posts that point out canon, or just ignoring them on purpose in a specific attempt to aggrandize Ilythiiiri sentiments regardless of facts. Again, the ritual cast was done by ALL of the other Elven nations, including Clerics of the Seldarine and Elven High Magi. AND when they cast it they did NOT INTEND for it to affect all Dark Elves. Bottom line: do you accept this fact as it's written in LEoF, free of any 'filling in the blanks,' or 'probaby's' or 'maybe's'?
MarkusTay63 04-27-07, 03:28 PM	I adressed the 'enemies' argument above, Dan. Why were they enemies? Why do you and Phil insist that that whole situation was the Illythiiri's fault? Pure conjecture... :nonono:
GothicDan 04-27-07, 03:40 PM	Why were they enemies? Why do you and Phil insist that that whole situation was the Illythiiri's fault? Because Shantel Othreier is not said to have had any other specific enemies, nor to have made any violent actions during the entirety of Elven history we have known, other than to defend against both Ilythiir and Aryvandaar. Also, it was Shantel Othreier who started praying to the Seldarine for them to aid in the Ilythiiri problem; the Seldarine, being by far and large Good, would not have answered or even listened to the prayers of an evil society. The War of Three Leaves (happened long before the Crown War), and the references to Ilythiiri finding the worshiping of dark deities, gives specific indication of a culture (or subculture) that was willing to initiate aggressions. There's no canon facts as to Shantel Othreier in any way being associated with corrupt or violent magic, deities, or plots. You can 'fill in the blanks,' if you want, but if you do that, I could also fill in the blanks in the opposite direction rather than making inferences SOLELY from the printed canon.
MarkusTay63 04-27-07, 04:49 PM	And all I see is a simple culture trying to protect itself from the encroachment of enemies. Enemies that showed up on THEIR planet and had been taking land for thousands of years. Enemies that destroyed their brothers and sisters in far off Miyeritar, leaving them the last remaining group of a once proud and noble people. Shantel Othreier aided in the invasion of Illythiir (along with Keltormir) LONG before they were destroyed by the retaliating Illythiir. I can see we are going to get nowhere with this discussion, and I'm beginning to tire of it. I've realized the basic underlying premise of our disagreement, and there simply is no way we will ever see eye to eye on this point. YOU still think the Seldarine are GOOD! :eek: Blond hair, blue eyes, think they are 'better' then everyone else, think they are the only ones 'fit to rule'... I distinctly remember reading about a similar group somewhere... :smirk:
GothicDan 04-27-07, 05:19 PM	There's nothing in any of the texts which states or infers that the Gold Elves and Silver Elves actually aggressively stole, attacked, or in any way pressured the Dark Elves into giving them, any land for the thousands of years leading up to the Crown Wars. Faerun is a huge continent, and there's no indication that there were even any Dark Elves settled in places other than Miyeritar and Ilythiir. YOU still think the Seldarine are GOOD! Blond hair, blue eyes, think they are 'better' then everyone else, think they are the only ones 'fit to rule'... I distinctly remember reading about a similar group somewhere... When you make flippant comments like that to me - personally - it really does nothing but make it seem like you're not taking the topic and facts seriously. PS: Nazi soldiers are sexy. PPS: There's nothing
Lord Karsus 04-27-07, 05:27 PM	YOU still think the Seldarine are GOOD! :eek: -That the Seldarine allowed the Dark Elves/Drow to survive in the end, I think, is a testament to this. Would, say, Lolth (an evil deity) do the same, if a large group of Drow started worshipping benevolent deities/extraplanar forces? The Dark Elves co-existed peacefully with the Sylvan Elves of Abeir-Toril for centuries, perhaps millennia, BEFORE the coming of the Gold and Silver. No where in canon is there ever a mention of ANY dispute before the war in Fäerie, a war involving Gold and Silver Elves mind you, and they DESTROYED their own civilization (sound familiar?). -That is, however, because there simply isn't any mention of anything. I'm not saying that the two groups regularly were involved in conflict, but to say that they weren't, because there isn't anything that says they were (or anything, for that matter), isn't the best way to make the point. So what I am saying is that the Gold Elves arrived in Toril and claimed it for themselves (they even had the hubris to rename the place, and that is once again CANON), despite the fact that there were already dozens of sentient species already living there. -Well, what were they supposed to call their new home? In the U.S, we call Germany "Germany". In Germany, they don't. They call it "Deuschland" (I might have mispelled that). In Mexico, they call it something else. The Elves called the world Faerūn, the Sarrukh something else, and so on and so forth. What's so upsetting about that? -Also, make note that Prince Durothil bestowed the name shortly after arriving from Faerie, before the survivors of Tintageer made contact with anyone or anything (that we know of). And of course, the first thing they did was make war with the native species; is it any wonder that they drew the ire of the Dark Elves? Not to mention the Dragons, Giants, etc…. -The Dragons started it, actually. See the first story in Realms of the Elves, where King Orchtrien (A Gold Dragon) is taking over a small Elven settlement to expand the territory he controls, simply because Dragons are greedy bastards.
Stigger 04-27-07, 05:46 PM	Hate to interrupt this, but in all fairness, Shantel Othreir was part of Aryvandaar at the time, it had already been conquered and supposedly pacificied into the empire, so saying it was an attack on an unaligned settlement would be very misleading. Though in all honesty, this whole debate is just getting silly. Markus and myself see a lot of gray in the text as written, others do not. And Markus and myself see a lot of unanswered questions that would influence the final historical verdict a lot, others do not. So in the absence of clear evidence or stated fact, it must fall to supposition, reading between the lines, because without it, there are too many holes to fill. If we're to simply rely on canon for this, its hard to come to any real conclusion without being left with an unsatisfied feeling in the pit of the stomach. I'm sorry you don't see the holes and unanswered questions, but for those of us who do, its just as frustrating in a lot of respects. Personally, I see those holes as having been left open purposefully, so we could come up with answers for ourselves, to suit our individual tastes and campaigns... which, as I've stated several times now, suits me just fine. My major problem is the pretense that they aren't any unanswered questions there, and that there isn't room to interpret the way it really happened. Sorry, but I just don't think a few dozen pages, if that many, scattered across several books can do justice to a 9000 year period in history... it boggles my mind as to how anyone could think we have even a remotely clear picture of the period...
Zanan 04-27-07, 06:01 PM	-That the Seldarine allowed the Dark Elves/Drow to survive in the end, I think, is a testament to this. Would, say, Lolth (an evil deity) do the same, if a large group of Drow started worshipping benevolent deities/extraplanar forces? Genocide done by deities is a) something the Wizards would not let have happen, nor would b ) Ao allowed such a thing. For you could see what would have happened next. But the whole debate revolves about some few facts and figures and to reconstruct histories / mind sets / whatever of whole nations out of that, well well ... GothicDan PS: Nazi soldiers are sexy. Nope: you should have said: "males in uniforms are sexy". Nazis were in no respect sexy. And, BTW, you and Mikayla should get your hands on Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal - novel.
GothicDan 04-27-07, 06:06 PM	Nope: you should have said: "males in uniforms are sexy". Nazis were in no respect sexy. And, BTW, you and Mikayla should get your hands on Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal - novel. Okay, so maybe the... Art of blond males in Nazi uniforms is sexy. ;) That being said... I don't like video games, usually, nor do I usually like video game novels (even less!), and I don't usually like the vast majority of D&D novels... So it would have to be practically an all-out porn scene for me to buy that!
Stigger 04-27-07, 06:09 PM	Never read that series for all the horrors I've heard about it...
Lord Karsus 04-27-07, 06:36 PM	Genocide done by deities is a) something the Wizards would not let have happen, nor would b ) Ao allowed such a thing. For you could see what would have happened next. -Oh, come now. Things like that happen all the time. Take Bhaal, for example. While not exactly genocide, he did have every single one of his assassin worshippers killed. WotC allowed that, so what's so..."messy" about having WotC/Ao kill off the evil Dark Elves (All extra-D&D references/symbolism/connotations/whatever aside)? Nope: you should have said: "males in uniforms are sexy". Nazis were in no respect sexy. -As much as they were bastards, the common soldier and officer did have sharp uniforms. That harkens back to the Aryan superiority, methinks. "We are smarter, stronger, look better..."
GothicDan 04-27-07, 06:39 PM	Does it make me pro-Aryan if I DO think that the stereotypical Nazi 'soldier' was better looking?
Khaelieth 04-27-07, 06:43 PM	...And how did this turn into a discussion about nazi uniforms? I don't think WotC would completely annihialate a race, they have a tendency to almost slaughter them to a man - Avariel, Deep Imaskari, Fey'ri etc. It would sorta make it troublesome to play one, there are only so many temporal stasises (stasi?) and "hidden" cities out there. I might have misinterprated the last posts, but is the discussion about who's the most evil; Ilythiiri and Aryvandaar? How ever said Aryvandaar was evil!? They were SUPERIOR and it was their destiny! Just that all the lesser elves didn't see it that way, 'cause they weren't that smart (and lacked several chromosomes)
Lord Karsus 04-27-07, 06:47 PM	...And how did this turn into a discussion about nazi uniforms? -Zany things happens when great minds collide. I don't think WotC would completely annihialate a race, they have a tendency to almost slaughter them to a man - Avariel, Deep Imaskari, Fey'ri etc. It would sorta make it troublesome to play one, there are only so many temporal stasises (stasi?) and "hidden" cities out there. -We're all getting sidetracked from my original point. The fact that the Seldarine did not start a massive genocide, or a campaign to kill ever Dark Elf to the last one reinforces the fact that they are good deities.
Stigger 04-27-07, 06:48 PM	I might have misinterprated the last posts, but is the discussion about who's the most evil; Ilythiiri and Aryvandaar? How ever said Aryvandaar was evil!? They were SUPERIOR and it was their destiny! Just that all the lesser elves didn't see it that way, 'cause they weren't that smart (and lacked several chromosomes) Geez, I really wish someone would have pointed that out sooner, it would have saved me a lot of typing... :surrender :D Since when has not killing someone been a good thing? Punishing those who aren't guilty isn't exactly 'goodly'... They aren't evil, but they surely aren't good either with the travesty of justice on the non-evil dark elves.
Philalexandros 04-27-07, 06:48 PM	Dan basically made all my points for me while I was busy having my body re-arranged on the drop zones west of Fort Bragg. Thanks Dan! :D Stigger, I'll sum up my argument in as concise a statement as I can make. I think you've made a very good case for yourself--you're tactful, articulate, and obviously at least somewhat passionate about the point you're debating. Cudos to you for that. Ultimately, though, I think your case suffers. You are, by your own words, trying to prove two things: 1) The Ilythiiri started the Crown Wars with the best of intentions 2) There is a level of equivalency among the Aryvandaari population in general where evil action/intent is concerned. The problem is that neither of the case is supported by canon fact. Where number 1 is concerned, the Ilythiiri are the only subrace noted as having a tradition of evil-deity worship. We can quibble about what "some" and "others" means in terms of numbers, but this really is an exercise of grasping at straws. Combine this with the two different canon texts qualifying the first Ilythiir assault as a weakly-premised attempt at land-grabs from Moon Elves, and I don't really see where this argument is coming from. Where number 2 is concerned, in absence of any confirming statement (e.g., "the Aryvandaari were twisted by evil"; "house after house of Sun Elves succumbed to Malkizid's tempations"), you're forced to inject conjecture to the matter. That's fine when canon is absent (as Dan said), but unrealistic when there is already a precedent of stating such things. Or, basically, why would they say it about one faction but not the other?
Stigger 04-27-07, 06:58 PM	Heh, no... no, no, no... I do not think the Ilythiiri started the war with the best of intentions in the slightest. It was a land grab, pure and simple, that had semi-strategic benefits to the Miyeritari. My point was that it was no worse than the Aryvandaaran's excuse for a land grab. I do think there is some level of comparison between the populations though, though the scales are different. The soldiers still followed the orders, and since the orders were acting towards an evil end, the actions of those soldiers were ultimately serving evil. Were they as bad as the Ilythiiri, certainly not. But they were by no means 'innocent' soldiers just following orders either. When the Vyshaan started persecuting priests, that should have been the moment the commoners started seeing something wrong with their leaders... that was the point where the 'innocent' arguement just failed for me. Unfortunately, we don't know why they pretty much just took it on the chin there... so we're left with supposition. Were they just benefitting so much from the Empire's success that they didn't care about the larger moral issues, or were they so oppressed that they feared to rise up? Who knows? I certainly don't, and I've yet to see anything saying one way or another as to why they seemed to take it passively.
Khaelieth 04-27-07, 07:02 PM	Since when has not killing someone been a good thing? Punishing those who aren't guilty isn't exactly 'goodly'... Who said the rest weren't plotting to slaughter the Aryvandaarians all along!? They rewrote history, it's just propaganda! <.< >.> *Flees* But honestly, biased views aside, the Aryvandaarians weren't as bad as the Ilythiiri by a long shot.
Philalexandros 04-27-07, 07:34 PM	Heh, no... no, no, no... I do not think the Ilythiiri started the war with the best of intentions in the slightest. It was a land grab, pure and simple, that had semi-strategic benefits to the Miyeritari. My point was that it was no worse than the Aryvandaaran's excuse for a land grab. I do apologize--I was reading 2-3 different posts, and I confused one of yours with Markus'. Again, apologies! Insofar as the difference between the attacks, I agree completely. I do think there is some level of comparison between the populations though, though the scales are different. The soldiers still followed the orders, and since the orders were acting towards an evil end, the actions of those soldiers were ultimately serving evil. But never qualified as such. We have incontrovertible proof that the Ilythiiri were evil in their warmaking. The single most negative descriptor used for Aryvandaari military efforts is that they were "tame by comparison" next to those of the Ilythiiri. When the Vyshaan started persecuting priests, that should have been the moment the commoners started seeing something wrong with their leaders... But we don't know who actually carried out this persecution, do we? PS: This is not specifically for Stigger; it is from page 11 of Cormanthyr, under the rules section. I think this should clear up any remaining issues regarding dark elven worship prior to the banishing and after the Crown Wars began... "* These are dark elves from before the Crown Wars; once the Crown Wars begin, the dark elves degenerate swiftly and solely into the worship of Lolth and other dark powers such as Vhaerun and Ghaunadar." PS the Second: I think I may have found the clue that explains why the banishing affected every dark elf... This is from page 22 of Cormanthyr-- "Their nonelven tactics, continued hostilities and aggressions, and their all-consuming hatred for all but their own race forced a swift and irrevocable decision from the ruling elves of Keltormir, Aryvandaar, and other enclaves: The Ilythiiri, or "dhaeraow" must be cast out of Corellon's favor!" Could it be that the ritual failed--or overreached--precisely because the high magi of Aryvandaar caused it to? Combine this with Corellon's "insistence" for the Elven Court to convene, and one can also do away with notions that Corellon had "favorites." Rather, one could say that Corellon is willing to let his children make mistakes--but that he won't allow for truly guilty parties to get away with them.
Stigger 04-27-07, 07:43 PM	No, we don't know who did the persecution, but it still doesn't exactly reflect well on the average citizen in a lot of respects, regardless of who did the actual persecuting. As to the first passage, is that swiftly in a human sense or an elven sense? They're two pretty different things. As to the second, remarkably interesting, particularly with the Miyeritari dark elves massive contribution in putting the Killing Storm down taken into consideration. Dunno if it dispels the notion that Corellon has favorites or not though, at least not completely, particularly since we know that Aryvandaar had infiltrated it on at least some level, though not the extent of that infiltration.
Philalexandros 04-27-07, 08:12 PM	No, we don't know who did the persecution, but it still doesn't exactly reflect well on the average citizen in a lot of respects, regardless of who did the actual persecuting. How so? As to the first passage, is that swiftly in a human sense or an elven sense? They're two pretty different things. In the developer sense. The citation states "once the Crown wars begin." There's a 500 year period between the beginning of those conflicts and the visit of Wendonai. I don't want to take any guesses, but if "light speed" was one year into the Wars and "slow as molasses" was when Wendonai shows up, "swiftly" is likely somewhere inbetween the two. As to the second, remarkably interesting, particularly with the Miyeritari dark elves massive contribution in putting the Killing Storm down taken into consideration. Dunno if it dispels the notion that Corellon has favorites or not though, at least not completely, particularly since we know that Aryvandaar had infiltrated it on at least some level, though not the extent of that infiltration. Again, you're injecting pure conjecture. It is specifically stated that Corellon called for it to meet, with the qualified intent of identifying the culprits behind the Crown Wars. The idea that Vyshaan infiltration corrupted the council's decision is similarly off... the verdict was DEATH. ;) "Good news, your majesty!" "Yes? What was the decision of the Elven Court" (evil hand-wringing and mustache-twirling*) "We managed to infiltrate the Elven Court and to even affect it's decision!" "Oh? Spleeeendid!" "Yes, your Majesty--we managed to sucker those silly lessers into MERELY KILLING YOU AND ALL YOUR KIN!" "OMG!!!ONEshift1" *I know Elves have no mustaches. Giilvas bought one.
Khaelieth 04-27-07, 08:28 PM	Wasn't there something about some enclave which the Vyshaans weren't invited to as well?
Stigger 04-27-07, 09:14 PM	How so? They still continued to follow the Vyshaan, at least as far as we know, and seemingly remained loyal, even while the Seldarines priests were being persecuted... that's not exactly a 'good' thing to do. ;) In the developer sense. The citation states "once the Crown wars begin." There's a 500 year period between the beginning of those conflicts and the visit of Wendonai. I don't want to take any guesses, but if "light speed" was one year into the Wars and "slow as molasses" was when Wendonai shows up, "swiftly" is likely somewhere inbetween the two. Could be... still a 250 year period if we cut it down the middle, which isn't exactly quick. Again, you're injecting pure conjecture. It is specifically stated that Corellon called for it to meet, with the qualified intent of identifying the culprits behind the Crown Wars. The idea that Vyshaan infiltration corrupted the council's decision is similarly off... the verdict was DEATH. ;) Well, not exactly, death would probably have been preferable when faced with something like the Descent. Still crap, but better than that particular alternative. I'm guessing that's a good reason why they would have killed off the disloyal elements of the High Mages. Makes for one hell of a motive really. Sure its conjucture, but we have no real idea why Malkazid wanted those High Mages wiped, or why the Vyshaan were only too happy to oblige. Fear of the sort of punishment that was inflicted on Ilythiiri seems as good a reason as any.
Philalexandros 04-28-07, 02:48 AM	They still continued to follow the Vyshaan, at least as far as we know, and seemingly remained loyal, even while the Seldarines priests were being persecuted... that's not exactly a 'good' thing to do. ;) The reason I asked "how so?" is because you're taking a single line of text and expounding it on an entire population. I again ask the question: why do the developers fail to qualify the sun elves being broadly evil in the same way they did the dark elves unless the equivalancy is not there? Could be... still a 250 year period if we cut it down the middle, which isn't exactly quick. Exactly. Which means sooner than that. Which corellates with the blurb about house after house signing on with demonic factions (prior to Wendonai, I might add). Well, not exactly, death would probably have been preferable when faced with something like the Descent. Actually, that's just your opinion. Sans any evidence, I might add. I'm guessing that's a good reason why they would have killed off the disloyal elements of the High Mages. Makes for one hell of a motive really. A better motive for killing those high mages would be to continue staying alive... Sure its conjucture, but we have no real idea why Malkazid wanted those High Mages wiped, ... Uhm, maybe because they were the one internal element that could usurp the entire chain of command? or why the Vyshaan were only too happy to oblige. Fear of the sort of punishment that was inflicted on Ilythiiri seems as good a reason as any. No... because the punishment had already been ordained. They had no reason to fear banishment.
Stigger 04-28-07, 08:19 AM	The reason I asked "how so?" is because you're taking a single line of text and expounding it on an entire population. I again ask the question: why do the developers fail to qualify the sun elves being broadly evil in the same way they did the dark elves unless the equivalancy is not there? I do tend to fall back on the idea that when good men do nothing about evil, its just as evil as actively helping, though more passive. A hold over from a Christian Brother education I suppose. Just because they aren't rampaging and consorting with Demons doesn't mean they aren't evil. Just not actively evil. At best its neutral, at least to the way I tend to view the world. Though to be honest, I don't think the Sun Elves there are broadly evil, more likely broadly cowed by the Vyshaan. I still find that remarkably distasteful and hardly a trait of 'good' so I'm not that sympathetic to them really. It comes down to few things with Aryvandaars citizenry to me... 1) They were so intimidated by their own government that they feared to act. Seems fairly plausible to me, making their actions (or lack thereof) understandable, if distasteful. 2) They were conditioned by their government to accept whatever hardship the State asked, and not question the actions the state needed to take. Again, seems plausible, and makes them a bit more culpable, though not to the same level as the Ilythiiri by all appearances. Though the focus of the attention in the sources on the nobility, and the complete lack of address about the average Ilythiiri commoners still leaves that question open in my mind. 3) They didn't care what the State did, so long as it didn't impact them overly much and they got to maintain their standard of living. Still somewhat plausible, though not as likely. Apathy... makes them a lot more morally culpable to my mind if this was the case, though again, not to the same level as the Ilythiiri, with the same caveat there. 4) Everyone loves a winner, and as long as the State was successful, they didn't care what they did. Not terribly plausible, but not entirely implausible either, and again based in apathy. Makes them nearly, but not quite as culpable as the Vyshaans in my mind. 5) They were an understated sort of evil and good at hiding it from others. Well, yeah, not really that plausible, but very remotely possible I guess, more here for me being a completist. Just as culpable as the Vyshaan, obviously... Note that I'm leaving out the whole goodly, happy Sun Elf thing there... hard to imagine those sorts of elves keeping the ranks of the military full and marching off to conquer their neighbors on the flimsy contexts the Vyshaan seemed to be coming up with. Which kinda makes me tend toward the conditioning theory more than anything else. Conjecture and opinion? Yeah, sure... but I didn't see anything mentioned one way or another that said anything about the average Aryvandaaran citizen, and how they felt about and viewed the war, did you? Exactly. Which means sooner than that. Which corellates with the blurb about house after house signing on with demonic factions (prior to Wendonai, I might add). That point doesn't quite reconcile with the timeline description however, giving us a slightly contradictory view, depending on which entry you choose to give precedence to... and even if you go by the text superceding, its still somewhat contradictory. They sought gifts from demonic patrons, but it wasn't until Wedonai showed up and favored Geirildin that anyone got any, and then they rest of them sought similar gifts... so were they seeking them before and just didn't get any, or did they not really want them until they saw what it did for Geirildin? The wording is really poorly put together there and open to a whole lot of interpretation... which is why I tend to go by the timelines description instead, since its more concise and leaves a lot less confusion in its wake. Actually, that's just your opinion. Sans any evidence, I might add. As opposed to some concrete evidence that a Descent-like banishment would have been preferred? Nothing is stated one way or another, what else besides opinion do we have to go off of over matters that aren't clarified and require us to read into the text? There's no evidence one way or another what the Vyshaan thought of the verdict, beyond not liking it, or what they did about it, beyond resist it. And there's no evidence because there isn't any evidence about how that came to be in the first place. We know they met, we know they reached a verdict, and pretty much nothing else... that's kinda like saying that the Continental Congress met and framed a Constitution over the course of their meetings. Technically true, but without any real context or meaning beyond a factual event. It tells us absolutely nothing about the event beyond its occurrance. Without that information, all we have is conjecture... and just knowing that much, it would be just as reasonable to say it was ten guys making the whole thing up as they went along as it would be to say it was representatives from all the various colonies. Without more information, that's what we're left with. Though the word 'probably' used there did already qualify that as a conjecture in the first place... A better motive for killing those high mages would be to continue staying alive... That looks strangely like an opinion to me there... we're both assigning a preference to a motive because that's the one that seems most likely to either of us. Which I have no problem with, although you don't seem too fond of it. We have no evidence as to what the Vyshaans motive, and at best have to rely on what seems reasonable to us, which can oddly enough, vary from person to person. Uhm, maybe because they were the one internal element that could usurp the entire chain of command? Conjecture again... glad to see you're getting the hang of it, given that there isn't much evidence to go on in the first place. No... because the punishment had already been ordained. They had no reason to fear banishment. But we have no idea if the Elven Court was aware of Malkazid's involvement. Nothing there says they had any idea he was involved, which you would think would have been mentioned. Had that little tidbit become known, I don't think its unreasonable to conclude that it would have altered their view of the Vyshaan dramatically, and possibly even altered their verdict. They didn't take too well to the Ilythiiri consorting with Lolth, I can't imagine they'd have been much more forgiving of the Vyshaans consorting with good ol' Malkazid. I know, I know, conjecture rearing its ugly head again... but there's something else we can rely on to draw our conclusions about topics never addressed in the material?
Khaelieth 04-28-07, 09:20 AM	I tend to think of Aryvandaar as a bit Roman - they got some excuse for invading a neighbouring province, civilized it and looked for another. As evil as that would be now, would it actually be at that time? They built some of the most fantastic cities ever, much like the Romans, and unlike the drow they didn't build something like Athamault, they built emerald cities. Perhaps some of the Vyshaan lords were a tad like Caligula (i.e. debauched) which also paved the way for Malkizid to drop a few subtle hints. While the average Aryvandaarian citizen wasn't evil, I'd say that didn't apply to Ilythiir. They were - on average - evil.
Prince Indirian 04-28-07, 09:27 AM	Insofar as military capabilities, though, Aryvandaar was the northernmost elven kingdom. Orishaar was south of the Lake of Steam. Given this and the LEoF text, is anyone still seriously asserting the dark elves were serious here? They were stated enemies, and they had been skirmishing for 7,000 years. The Ilythiir wanted a land-grab, and every canon source has said exactly that. Why hold on to an excuse that is described as just that? Incidentally, the same document you cited states that Orishaar had little to do with a war that was nowhere near it to begin with. And it also calles Orishaar "allies" of Aryvandaar, both the timeline and the passage you read (that said Orishaar had little do to with it). Which is odd, how can you be an ally and have little to do with Aryvandaar who is at war ? This is just my opinion as well interpretation Did you read my Sweden comparasion ? Same thing there, Sweden was officialy neutral, but in reality her stance was quite clearly biased towards the stronger (nazi germany). It would officialy been wrong to attack sweden, but militarily just. Since supplied germany with vital Iron ore, among a a few things... Also note LEoF says that causus Belli was innitially seen as a landgrab, doesn't mean it was ? Then invasion if Irag was seen as a quest for oil, initially...though we had all sorts of explanation to why it occured in the first place...many things are seen as things they are not. So, when YOU read that they were enemies, you INFERE that it was Ilythiir’s fault, even though the Dark Elves had no previous antagonistic tendencies, the ones displayed by the invaders. Who's to say that the lands belonging to Syņrpiir, Thearnytaar, and Eiellūr didn’t originally belong to the Illythiir, who were the original inhabitants of the region? We don’t know what races lived in those kingdoms, but we do know that the Green Elves sided with the Dark Elves against them(canon, once again), which would indicate that they were amongst the other sub-races who came later. Could it be, that both the dark and Green Elves were tired of getting pushed around by these new comers? It would certainly seem so, given the facts. Before the destruction of Tintageer there are no known Elven wars on Abeir-Toril, but when the warmongers from Fäerie showed up, all of a sudden some peoples became ‘enemies’. Perhaps, they had brought their pre-conditioned dislike of the dark Elves former patroness Auraushnee with them? Yes and the reason Miyertar was founded (by green and dark elves) was because of political differences with the GOLD ELVES...hm Also note that DIRECTLY after the Crown Wars, gold elves lamented the fact they would share governance on Evermeet with lesser elves...:rolleyes: . They couldn't wait could they ? The Fifth Crown War also canceled the growing monarchial structure in Evermeet, since the Vyshaan managed to send word of the fall of their empire via High Magic. In order to keep the chaos of the Wars off Evermeets shores, those closest to the Vyshaan powers either left to join their comrades or abandoned them to their fates. The Houses soon shared power in a Ruling Council similar to that of Elven Court. While happy to be spared the bloodshed of the mainland Crown War, the gold elves secretly bridled under the ignominy of having to now share their positions with "lesser elves". The Crown Wars finally drew to a close thirty-odd centuries after the march of the Vyshaan clan started the greatest strife ever seen among the elves, It is little wonder that the elves rarely speak of these trying times among themselves, let alone the N'Tel'Quess. To this day, "vyshaan" is a curse word and insult nearly as potent as calling an elf "dhaeraow!" Where do you get the idea that Ilythiir was in any way outgunned and outmanned to the point of needing to fall to demonic worship? The novel Evermeet gives a picture of an Ilythiir already settled and well-versed in Elven High Magic before even Prince Durothil visited (and thus before Aryvandaar arose). Well, one can perhaps explain their use of demonic (read:Vile Magic) magic as well other "evils" (undead, dominated monsters) were military innovations. Though it's still EVIL, don't get any other ideas...:) . They were a warrior culture and it seems they had no limits to how far they would go to win, hence the vile magic etc... And I'll also note that Shantel Othreier in Cormanthyr is stated as having Wood Elves in it. Why do ALL of those other nations have to include Wood Elves? Shantel , was moon and sun elven nation. Both Comanthyr and Leof are quite clear on that here it is Cormanthyr, page 21 Aryvandaar (gold elves), Illefarn (green elves), Miyeritar (dark and green elves), Shantel Othreier (gold and moon elves), and Keltormir (moon and green elves). The brackets tell us the which groups that primary make up the nation. Aryvandaar probably had a few non-gold elves, but the vast majority were gold elves LEoF, page 55. Aryvandaar (now know as the Vyshantaar Empire) attempted to annex the sun elf and moon elf kingdom of Shantel Othreier, thus beginning the third Crown war. I am not saying that Shantel was compleyely without green elves, but they were likely as very small majority. Again, the ritual cast was done by ALL of the other Elven nations, including Clerics of the Seldarine and Elven High Magi. AND when they cast it they did NOT INTEND for it to affect all Dark Elves. Well mostly Illefarn and free areas. The free can mean free from Illithyr or free from both Illthyr and Vyshaantar. Or I don't know... In opposition to the corrupt dark elves of Ilythiir and their continued destruction of the forested elven homelands by fire (an elven enemy of long-standing), over 1,000 priests and High Mages in neutral Illefarn and other free areas spend decades in fervent prayer for salvation by Corellon Larethian and the Seldarine gods. GD, one wonder if the Dark Elves of what was once Miyertar were included into this. :) The reason I asked "how so?" is because you're taking a single line of text and expounding it on an entire population. I again ask the question: why do the developers fail to qualify the sun elves being broadly evil in the same way they did the dark elves unless the equivalancy is not there? The dark elves were meant to be evil...:D So they had to come up with something. No... because the punishment had already been ordained. They had no reason to fear banishment. Ehem...maybe you should read this... Year 9900:Aryvandaar's covert persecution of High Mages and priests begins, as they attempt to destroy or control any who might somehow force their descent as they did the drow
Philalexandros 04-28-07, 09:58 AM	I do tend to fall back on the idea that when good men do nothing about evil, its just as evil as actively helping, though more passive. A hold over from a Christian Brother education I suppose. Just because they aren't rampaging and consorting with Demons doesn't mean they aren't evil. Just not actively evil. At best its neutral, at least to the way I tend to view the world. Again, a valid opinion but not one supported by the game designers... It's one I don't share because, as I've stated repeatedly, it makes no sense for them *not* to have qualified this when they already had done so for both the Ilythiiri and the Vyshaan. Though to be honest, I don't think the Sun Elves there are broadly evil, more likely broadly cowed by the Vyshaan. I still find that remarkably distasteful and hardly a trait of 'good' so I'm not that sympathetic to them really. Brother, you just passed judgement on virtually every state in the history of mankind. Conjecture and opinion? Yeah, sure... but I didn't see anything mentioned one way or another that said anything about the average Aryvandaaran citizen, and how they felt about and viewed the war, did you? To the last point: no, I didn't. That's fairly telling, isn't it? That point doesn't quite reconcile with the timeline description however, giving us a slightly contradictory view, depending on which entry you choose to give precedence to... and even if you go by the text superceding, its still somewhat contradictory. They sought gifts from demonic patrons, but it wasn't until Wedonai showed up and favored Geirildin that anyone got any, and then they rest of them sought similar gifts... so were they seeking them before and just didn't get any, or did they not really want them until they saw what it did for Geirildin? The wording is really poorly put together there and open to a whole lot of interpretation... Not really, Stigger. To begin with, please explain how it doesn't reconcile with the timeline description. Beyond how do you arive at the conclusion that they other houses didn't gain demonic power? What sense doe sit make to say that all those houses sought demonic patronage if none got any before Wendonai? What, "one by one, the great Ilythiiri houses" randomly asked demons for help just to cover their bases in case one of them DID get help? Come on! :P With all due respect, this is even worse than your attempt to claim that the descriptor of a "savage attack" fails to explain how an entire realm got destroyed (which is akin to saying that the strategic bomber forces of the US didn't *mean* to set all of Tokyo on fire during a intended firebombing campaign). As opposed to some concrete evidence that a Descent-like banishment would have been preferred? Nothing is stated one way or another, what else besides opinion do we have to go off of over matters that aren't clarified and require us to read into the text? Stigger, you really are reaching here. Now we are to question whether the Vyshaan wanted to die or not? If death was preferable, why didn't they fall on their swords instead? Why the whole attempt at fighting off all of the other elven realms? Why the effort in culling any disloyal elements? Does it need to be specifically spelled out that elves like breathing? That's not in the books either! And I'm not even going to touch the rest. Honestly, Stigger, I get the feeling that you will never be satisfied unless a game developer goes to such an inane level of description as to make a document that is more historical treatise than game product. I mean, come on. In your quest to somehow disprove the overwhelming mass of eveidence against you, you forget the most important hing where this material is concerned: both Cormanthyr and LEoF specifically qualify deception, corruption, evil, etc. In absence of those descriptors, the author's word is canon. When the author says ... "At the apparent insistence of Corellon Larethian himself during their reveries or rituals, over 100 representatives of each of the surface elven races were magically summoned to a forest far to the east that was removed from all these conflicts, political and otherwise. Here, the elves of all subraces, skills, and occupations were to debate the cause of their divisiveness and strife. This place, established in Corellon's name as a place of decision and judgment, became Elven Court." ...well, that's what hapenned. When the author states ... "... the Vyshaan had spies among them, and with their warning, they marshalled their forces against the decisions of Elven Court. The Fifth Crown War began quietly but recklessly. In desperation, the mad elfking Giilvas Vyshaan attempted to slay all the wizards and High Mages who stood against him, counting on the support of his High Mage sons and brothers to protect the clan." ... then you have to understand that Giilvas was desperate about protecting himself from the verdict of the Elven Court. This, in and of itself, nullifies your attempt to play off the verdict as lesser or arrived at by means of contrivance or corruption. That looks strangely like an opinion to me there... we're both assigning a preference to a motive because that's the one that seems most likely to either of us. No, it's not opinion at all. I'll cite it again. "In desperation, the mad elfking Giilvas Vyshaan attempted to slay all the wizards and High Mages who stood against him, counting on the support of his High Mage sons and brothers to protect the clan." His motive was the need to protect himself and to eliminate potential internal enemies. Anything beyong that is your conjecture, my friend. Conjecture again... glad to see you're getting the hang of it, given that there isn't much evidence to go on in the first place. How in the heck is that conjecture, Stigger? Honestly. But we have no idea if the Elven Court was aware of Malkazid's involvement. Nothing there says they had any idea he was involved, which you would think would have been mentioned. Had that little tidbit become known, I don't think its unreasonable to conclude that it would have altered their view of the Vyshaan dramatically, and possibly even altered their verdict. They didn't take too well to the Ilythiiri consorting with Lolth, I can't imagine they'd have been much more forgiving of the Vyshaans consorting with good ol' Malkazid. Actually, you make my point for me. At best, the Vyshaan were operating under the impression that the Elven Court couldn't *possibly* know about Malkizid. In that case, they had no reason to "fear" a Banishment verdict, however silly that sounds given that "simply" being killed stirred them into fighting an entire Crown War against all of elvenkind. At worse, the Court DID know about Malkizid and DID factor this in their decision to execute the Vyshaan. That, incidentally, is conjecture. It's also objective conjecture, given that it covers both sides of the debate. ;)
Stigger 04-28-07, 02:40 PM	Again, a valid opinion but not one supported by the game designers... It's one I don't share because, as I've stated repeatedly, it makes no sense for them *not* to have qualified this when they already had done so for both the Ilythiiri and the Vyshaan. Supported by the game designers... you keep saying that. Not quite sure what you're getting at with it though. To have that be definitively true, you're relying on the idea that there is a specific meaning and interpretation of the material that is absolute... which I'm just not even vaguely seeing. Brother, you just passed judgement on virtually every state in the history of mankind. Not quite sure what you mean there either... having trouble seeing how you're coming to that conclusion. Which is making me think we have fundamentally different ways of seeing the word and that we're never going to resolve this or reach any real conclusion... To the last point: no, I didn't. That's fairly telling, isn't it? Not really. We equally don't see anything about your average Ilythiiri beyond the tactics of their military... yet we pass judgement on the ones who stayed at home and didn't engage in those acts. If we're not passing judgement on the Aryvandaaran citizens who stayed out of it, why are we passing it on the average Ilythiiri, when we know nothing about either one. We know the nobles consorted with demons... we don't know what the commoners thought about that or if they even knew until Lolth became the 'official' religion. You are presuming that it was okay with them, but I'm not making that same assumption. Not really, Stigger. To begin with, please explain how it doesn't reconcile with the timeline description. Beyond how do you arive at the conclusion that they other houses didn't gain demonic power? What sense doe sit make to say that all those houses sought demonic patronage if none got any before Wendonai? What, "one by one, the great Ilythiiri houses" randomly asked demons for help just to cover their bases in case one of them DID get help? Come on! :P With all due respect, this is even worse than your attempt to claim that the descriptor of a "savage attack" fails to explain how an entire realm got destroyed (which is akin to saying that the strategic bomber forces of the US didn't *mean* to set all of Tokyo on fire during a intended firebombing campaign). Could it because I said I found it contradictory? The way that is written does not make much sense to me. Maybe it does to you, and if so, great, but I see it creating this bizarre loop of events that makes no sense. First we have everyone seeking demonic patronage. Then we have Wendonai being sent and giving the Sethomiir big money and lots of prizes from Lolth. Then everyone started seeking demonic patronage because they wanted the same gifts the Sethomiir had... And yet when Wendonai arrived, he had to lead the Sethomiir into darkness... but were they already seeking patronage, why would he have to lead them to anything? Why would Lolth have to work through agents if they were already corrupt and asking for her aid? That just makes no sense to me... As to your bomber analogy... think of it more as the accidental bombing of London by off course bombers, which inadvertantly lifted the ban on bombing each others capitals, and you might have a easier time with what I'm getting at. Stigger, you really are reaching here. Now we are to question whether the Vyshaan wanted to die or not? If death was preferable, why didn't they fall on their swords instead? Why the whole attempt at fighting off all of the other elven realms? Why the effort in culling any disloyal elements? Does it need to be specifically spelled out that elves like breathing? That's not in the books either! Could it possibly be because they thought they had a chance at prevailing in a land war? Everyone else who challenged them up to that point had fallen to them... could it be that they thought ideological purity was more important than competance? Though really, you seem to be interpreting things in a most extreme manner, not to mention reaching a conclusion about what I said down there that I just don't quite fathom. What I said was that we have no idea why they resisted or why they felt the need to purge 'disloyal' elements, who may or may not have been disloyal in the first place. Note the comment on his mindset as 'mad', which makes accurate understanding of his mindset difficult at best. We don't know if those elements were disloyal or not, simply that he perceived them as such. Madmen aren't exactly known as outstanding judges of character afterall... the next passage describing his troops and supporters as quite loyal casts some measure of doubt on whether those mages he killed were disloyal or not, at least to me it does. Really, it seems to me that the devs were drawing a lot upon the events surrounding the fall of Nazi Germany and semi-projecting it onto the fall of the Vyshaan. And I'm not even going to touch the rest. Honestly, Stigger, I get the feeling that you will never be satisfied unless a game developer goes to such an inane level of description as to make a document that is more historical treatise than game product. (snip for the sake of brevity) ... then you have to understand that Giilvas was desperate about protecting himself from the verdict of the Elven Court. This, in and of itself, nullifies your attempt to play off the verdict as lesser or arrived at by means of contrivance or corruption. Actually, as the tail end of Prince Indirian's post (#308) notes very nicely, that they did fear that Descent verdict. They had a chance in a direct conflict, however slim, which was more than had against a ritual like the one used in forcing the Drow into exile. So it was in their favor to have a verdict such as was passed, rather than the no chance at all high magic ritual verdict. And in case you had not noticed it before... I am not asking the devs to provide us with an inane amount of detail. You are interpreting what is given one way. I am interpreting it in another. The vagueness of the lore is a good thing in my mind since it does allow for a great deal of DM leeway in interpreting the material. You seem to have this impression that I'm trying to 'prove' that the Vyshaan and the rest of the Aryvandaarans were evil bastards who should have suffered the same fate as the Ilythiiri. You'd be wrong in that assessment. I am demonstrating that the material is open to interpretation, and that it does not have absolute, black and white interpretation you seem to be espousing. No, it's not opinion at all. I'll cite it again. "In desperation, the mad elfking Giilvas Vyshaan attempted to slay all the wizards and High Mages who stood against him, counting on the support of his High Mage sons and brothers to protect the clan." His motive was the need to protect himself and to eliminate potential internal enemies. Anything beyong that is your conjecture, my friend. Again, note the word 'Mad' up there... hard to really assign motive to someone who in all likelihood is beyond reason. That's what he thought was the case, but we have no knowledge of whether it was an accurate assessment or not. He was Mad... as in not in his right mind... as in maybe those mages were actually loyal... as in maybe he was jumping at shadows because he was insane... we do not know for certain any way it goes. How in the heck is that conjecture, Stigger? Honestly. Because you're making assumptions about the command and control elements of the Empire, that we do not know about with any certainty. Did they have the power to usurp the throne? Probably, but all we know about them is that a madman thought they were disloyal. Which isn't exactly saying much... Good ol' King Giilvas (which really should have been Emporer if they were the Vyshaantar Empire thinking about it) was probably very rational by all outward appearances, and likely very charismatic. But that whole mad thing kinda gets in the way of him being rational and well equipped to make reasonable decisions. And yes, that's more conjecture. But its pretty hard to know a guy well from a single sentence, but the one sentence does qualify his state of mind, so really, that's the important part there. Actually, you make my point for me. At best, the Vyshaan were operating under the impression that the Elven Court couldn't *possibly* know about Malkizid. In that case, they had no reason to "fear" a Banishment verdict, however silly that sounds given that "simply" being killed stirred them into fighting an entire Crown War against all of elvenkind. At worse, the Court DID know about Malkizid and DID factor this in their decision to execute the Vyshaan. That, incidentally, is conjecture. It's also objective conjecture, given that it covers both sides of the debate. ;) See above... I'd love to continue this, but I must be off... sister in law is getting married and I've been conscripted to do 'guy' stuff today, whatever that means... :blink:
MarkusTay63 04-28-07, 02:57 PM	This is getting us no where. You still insist that only your way of seeing the events is correct. Let me explain a little something to you about how the human mind works. Those 'words' you see on the paper? They aren't really information at all! They are little squiggles that our brains 'interpret' into words. Words are also not real, but rather an abstract way of communicating a concept from one human mind to another. When you read a word, any word, your brain immediately translates it into something, adding in any bias's that pre-exist due to cultural, environmental, and even sometimes genetic influences. When I read the line "They all went to the party", I might think that it meant the subject and their closest friends, someone else might think it meant 'everyone in the Frat House', a third person might think 'awww... he brought along his family'. The minute we read a word, ANY word, our brains immediately tack on baggage to it. Each of the other words in that simple sentence are also 'tainted' - there are at least a thousand different ideas about what a 'party' is (dinner party, cocktail party, garden party, Keg Party, 'small get-together, huge ball, etc...). There is no possible way for two people to read the same exact thing and draw the same EXACT conclusions. We see that in this thread, and most of us are willing to accept that, and say 'all the facts aren't in'. But you continue to think what YOU read is how the rest of us SHOULD be seeing it, indicating that you somehow think that your 'brain' is better equipped to translate the data then ours is. There are thousands of years of history, with entire centuries of no information what-so-ever. How can you judge anyone by a few pages of information that has obviously been 'tainted'. If you don't think that the text isn't 'tainted', then count how many abjectives are used. When making statements like "the greedy Aryvandaar" or the "vile Illythiir', our judgements are immediately clouded. True history should not contain descriptive terms of a racial or national group. It makes for a good story, but it is misleading. BTW, the text also goes on to say that after their initial 'evil' acts, the rest of the Elves called them "Dhaeroaw", a VERY derogatory term to an Elf. Get a large group of Black People together, and call them the 'N' word for a few centuries... see if they won't get medieval on your @ss! See what I mean? I can take that simple sentence, and spin it to make the surface Elves look like a bunch of bigots! I have no idea how the Illythiir initially took to that word, but I know they later embraced it (Drow) and use it themselves. Is it all that different from the 'N' word? ;) I said - Blond hair, blue eyes, think they are 'better' then everyone else, think they are the only ones 'fit to rule'... I distinctly remember reading about a similar group somewhere... :smirk:You responded with - When you make flippant comments like that to me - personally - it really does nothing but make it seem like you're not taking the topic and facts seriously. PS: Nazi soldiers are sexy.I was NOT being flippant, I DO see the Gold Elves as having the 'Aryan Superman' mindset. They they think they are better then everyone else, and in such a way that they themselves don't even understand why it upsets others. The Silver Elves equate to the 'non-Aryan' Germanic people (I forget offhand the term for the darker, more 'brutish' stereotype is), in that they are 'tolerable', but unfit to rule. I find the comparrison even more disturbing in the end, when the Elven Community (read Germanic peoples) locked away their hated enemies (scapegoats?) in the world's largest concentration camp!!! Bad comparison? Read 2e DotU! The initial Decent was so hard on the Drow that they had to EAT EACH OTHER!!! Remember all those pictures of skinny Jews from the Holocaust? Think Drow when you see those - they were sent to live in caves with no provisions and NO food sources. They were meant to die off down there. It is a testament to the amazing Drow spirit (the desire to overcome ALL adversity) that they have not only survived, but have THRIVED in those abhorrent conditions. And last I checked, they will soon outnumber the Elves. :devil:
Philalexandros 04-28-07, 06:49 PM	Supported by the game designers... you keep saying that. Not quite sure what you're getting at with it though. To have that be definitively true, you're relying on the idea that there is a specific meaning and interpretation of the material that is absolute... which I'm just not even vaguely seeing. That's odd; I would say it's pretty clear the LEoF specifically qualifies that the Ilythiiri turn to evil, but for some mysterious reason never even makes a roundabout reference regarding the Aryvandaari doing the same. Not quite sure what you mean there either... having trouble seeing how you're coming to that conclusion. Which is making me think we have fundamentally different ways of seeing the word and that we're never going to resolve this or reach any real conclusion... It's really quite simple; the conditions/traits you listed in that post could be applied to every single state that ever went to war in human history. Quite simply, you came up with some incredibly unrealistic criteria for, as you describe it, "inactive evil." Not really. We equally don't see anything about your average Ilythiiri beyond the tactics of their military... yet we pass judgement on the ones who stayed at home and didn't engage in those acts. Because LEoF specifically cites Houses in general... not just warriors and mages. A House is the sum total of the elves within it--combatant and non. Beyond that, I've already cited the passage in Cormanthyr that qualifies to what extent Lolth's worship reached in Ilythiiri society. Could it because I said I found it contradictory? The way that is written does not make much sense to me. Maybe it does to you, and if so, great, but I see it creating this bizarre loop of events that makes no sense. How so? We have a stated timeline of events. There's nothing unrealistic about a gradual increase in demonic alliances culminating in a personal alliance between a ruling house and an advanced demon. You claim it's non-sensical; I think it's just inconvenient for your argument. ;) As to your bomber analogy... think of it more as the accidental bombing of London by off course bombers, which inadvertantly lifted the ban on bombing each others capitals, and you might have a easier time with what I'm getting at. You're reaching. Cormanthyr even qualifies that it was the Ilythiiri *tactics*, which included razing those forests that disgusted the other surface elves. Could it possibly be because they thought they had a chance at prevailing in a land war? Everyone else who challenged them up to that point had fallen to them... could it be that they thought ideological purity was more important than competance? Though really, you seem to be interpreting things in a most extreme manner, not to mention reaching a conclusion about what I said down there that I just don't quite fathom. Again, you're injecting hypotheticals, conjecture, supposition, etc. None of the above are in any way mentioned. What I said was that we have no idea why they resisted or why they felt the need to purge 'disloyal' elements, who may or may not have been disloyal in the first place. Actually, the text specifically qualifies that. Actually, as the tail end of Prince Indirian's post (#308) notes very nicely, that they did fear that Descent verdict. They had a chance in a direct conflict, however slim, which was more than had against a ritual like the one used in forcing the Drow into exile. So it was in their favor to have a verdict such as was passed, rather than the no chance at all high magic ritual verdict. OK... I'll buy that. I am demonstrating that the material is open to interpretation, and that it does not have absolute, black and white interpretation you seem to be espousing. In most cases, though, it's not. I'm really not trying to be rude, but the majority of your argument has been centered on very creative interpretation of language and word choice. Because you're making assumptions about the command and control elements of the Empire, that we do not know about with any certainty. Did they have the power to usurp the throne? Probably, but all we know about them is that a madman thought they were disloyal. Which isn't exactly saying much... I'm not going to get into an argument as to whether the high magi, loyal or not, were the group most capable of deposing Giilvas. This doesn't even merit an argument. I'd love to continue this, but I must be off... sister in law is getting married and I've been conscripted to do 'guy' stuff today, whatever that means... :blink: Congratulations to you and yours! :) I can go by a cease-fire for the time being. I dropped a question at the Candlekeep Forums for Rich Baker. Hopefully he can illuminate us with more indepth wisdom. :)
Philalexandros 04-28-07, 07:02 PM	This is getting us no where. You still insist that only your way of seeing the events is correct. Let me explain a little something to you about how the human mind works. Oh, please do tell! Those 'words' you see on the paper? They aren't really information at all! They are little squiggles that our brains 'interpret' into words. Words are also not real, but rather an abstract way of communicating a concept from one human mind to another. When you read a word, any word, your brain immediately translates it into something, adding in any bias's that pre-exist due to cultural, environmental, and even sometimes genetic influences. Well, let's take a break from your take at psychoanalysis and take it at a more basic level, shall we? Forgotten Realms is a game. Its mechanics are regulated by a certain set of rules. Its story line is described in a certain set of sourcebooks. Until now, many of those sourcebooks have been left purposefully vague--take, for instance, the difference between the Dark Disaster in Cormanthyr and in LEoF. Data that is stated as fact is called "canon." Clear so far? Great! Now, when the author of said canon data says "So and so is evil" we take that as *canon.* When he doesn't call someone evil, it's somewhat illogical to *assume* that someone is evil. Now, I'll let you get back to your examples of language use. Congratulations on using incredibly vague and unqualified statements to somehow counter fairly obvious things like "this subrace turned to evil" and "these houses sought demonic patronage." There are thousands of years of history, with entire centuries of no information what-so-ever. How can you judge anyone by a few pages of information that has obviously been 'tainted'. Half te problem with this conversation is that the data you claim is tainted is actually *not* tainted. What should be fairly obvious is that any text that represents the POV of a certain individual within the game can (and probably is) "tainted," but that text written from the POV of the objective game designer is describing *facts.* Thus, when the "Saga of the Four Willows" (I made this up) talks about "vile Ilythiiri", we understand that this statement carries the bias of an imperfect author. When *Rich Baker*, though, says "one elf subrace became ... twisted by evil" we *know* that a subrace got twisted by evil, period. BTW, the text also goes on to say that after their initial 'evil' acts, the rest of the Elves called them "Dhaeroaw", a VERY derogatory term to an Elf. Get a large group of Black People together, and call them the 'N' word for a few centuries... see if they won't get medieval on your @ss! Yeah, Markus, except for the fact that people of African origin didn't earn the "N" word for demonic alliances and the worship of evil deities. For the record, the above comparison was just ridiculous. It was about as apples and oranges as you can get.
MarkusTay63 04-28-07, 07:37 PM	It must be nice to live in a world of black & White, with absolutely no shades of Grey. This is a pointless argument, and I'm really getting tired of everyone (including myself) espousing their opinions. The text is clearly vague on certain points to allow each DM to tailor it to his own game, even Dan has admitted as much. And you still never addressed any of my points about who's land it was in the first place, which CAN put an entirely different spin on things. But since there is nothing in print, we can't see beyond the black and white. and BTW, quoting someone out of context is just plain rude. I go on to say in the very next paragraph how ridiculous that argument is; I was just using the 'N' word example to prove a point about how different people can 'twist' what is written to their own ends, just like you just twisted mine. Guess what? The Illythiir were never evil, and neither are the Drow... and I can prove it! Something that does not exist cannot be either good or evil, and the same thing goes for all the other Elves... and whatever. After reading your counter-argument to my statement about 'tainted' history I would have to agree with you, in as much that FR isn't really history at all. It's a story, made up in people's minds, and there is NO right or wrong. I tired of arguiing on the behalf of a 'pretend' ethnic group, it's just ludicrous... :nonono:
Philalexandros 04-28-07, 09:26 PM	It must be nice to live in a world of black & White, with absolutely no shades of Grey. It must be nice to make irrelevant comparisons. The world is full of shades of grey. Game sourcebooks that specifically qualify certain things don't necessarily have those. The text is clearly vague on certain points to allow each DM to tailor it to his own game, even Dan has admitted as much. It certainly is, and when this debate began, I agreed that the Realms are made to be tailored as needed. The problem is that the points you are arguing are not vague. The Ilythiiri *are* qualified as evil, and the Aryvandaarin are not. And you still never addressed any of my points about who's land it was in the first place, which CAN put an entirely different spin on things. But since there is nothing in print, we can't see beyond the black and white. Please repeat the statement. and BTW, quoting someone out of context is just plain rude. I go on to say in the very next paragraph how ridiculous that argument is; I was just using the 'N' word example to prove a point about how different people can 'twist' what is written to their own ends, just like you just twisted mine. Oh, I didn't quote you out of context. The comparison was ridiculous because one word is a racial slur and the other means "traitor" and was specifically aimed at the Ilythiiri for turning from the Seldarine. Guess what? The Illythiir were never evil, and neither are the Drow... and I can prove it! That's rich; second paragraph of the Crown Wars chapter in LEoF blow your entire argument out of the water. After reading your counter-argument to my statement about 'tainted' history I would have to agree with you, in as much that FR isn't really history at all. It's a story, made up in people's minds, and there is NO right or wrong. But there is fact. And you're trying to argue against it with statements like the above.
Lord Karsus 04-28-07, 09:32 PM	Oh, I didn't quote you out of context. The comparison was ridiculous because one word is a racial slur and the other means "traitor" and was specifically aimed at the Ilythiiri for turning from the Seldarine. -It means "Face of Shadow", actually. "Traitor" is the bastardized translation, and not the literal one.
MarkusTay63 04-28-07, 09:47 PM	That's rich; second paragraph of the Crown Wars chapter in LEoF blow your entire argument out of the water.Once again, taken out of context, Did you even bother to read my next sentence? Going away for a couple of Days. Peace, Phil ;) P.S. If you can find just one EVIL DROW, bring him over to my house, I'd love to meet him. :D
Philalexandros 04-28-07, 10:06 PM	Uh, yeah Markus--I took you out of context alright! ;)
Stigger 04-28-07, 10:51 PM	That's odd; I would say it's pretty clear the LEoF specifically qualifies that the Ilythiiri turn to evil, but for some mysterious reason never even makes a roundabout reference regarding the Aryvandaari doing the same. A conclusion I would disagree with. I do see roundabout references that state as much, you don't... that interpretation thing sneaking in again. It's really quite simple; the conditions/traits you listed in that post could be applied to every single state that ever went to war in human history. Quite simply, you came up with some incredibly unrealistic criteria for, as you describe it, "inactive evil." Ah, that makes more sense to me now. Yeah, I would describe most of human history as a form of inactive evil to be honest. I can also the reasons as to why that is however, morality is afterall largely a luxury of those who aren't scraping to survive afterall. Because LEoF specifically cites Houses in general... not just warriors and mages. A House is the sum total of the elves within it--combatant and non. Really not being a prick here, but how much do we know of of the actual Ilythiiri social structure? Do we know if the commoners were included in that 'house' definition? Do we even know if that's the correct definition in relation to the Ilythiiri culture? Not last I checked. More of that interpretation sneaking in. Beyond that, I've already cited the passage in Cormanthyr that qualifies to what extent Lolth's worship reached in Ilythiiri society. With an interpretation I don't agree with, given the data there. I see it as vague, at best, you don't... this is part of the overall theme we seem to be developing with each other. How so? We have a stated timeline of events. There's nothing unrealistic about a gradual increase in demonic alliances culminating in a personal alliance between a ruling house and an advanced demon. You claim it's non-sensical; I think it's just inconvenient for your argument. ;) No, nothing unrealistic at all about it. I just don't think it makes any sense the way its worded. Seriously, I really do mean that. The wording is extremely awkward to me. I'm really not sure what to make of it, as I find it disconcertingly repetative and without much qualification to timelining how the events unfolded beyond the most vague ways. Maybe I'm just being retarded and missing something that you find obvious, but it makes no sense to me. You're reaching. Cormanthyr even qualifies that it was the Ilythiiri *tactics*, which included razing those forests that disgusted the other surface elves. Having reread the relavent section of C:EoE, I was mistaken on that one, point conceded. Again, you're injecting hypotheticals, conjecture, supposition, etc. None of the above are in any way mentioned. Which was kinda my point... there isn't much to go on there. Actually, the text specifically qualifies that. It also qualified it with the king being mad... which leaves us with the question as to whether the threat was genuine or not. In most cases, though, it's not. I'm really not trying to be rude, but the majority of your argument has been centered on very creative interpretation of language and word choice. I disagree. Maybe its not the way you would interpret the language, as if I really needed to say that ;) , but I don't see a problem with any of the interpretations I've made. Its simply different than yours. I'm not going to get into an argument as to whether the high magi, loyal or not, were the group most capable of deposing Giilvas. This doesn't even merit an argument. Was angling more at the Praetorian Guard scenario really, figured you'd catch that one. Either way, note that I did concede that they probably were the most capable of doing so, what I was questioning was if they had any intent of doing so. Goes back to the whole Mad King part of the events. Congratulations to you and yours! :) I can go by a cease-fire for the time being. I dropped a question at the Candlekeep Forums for Rich Baker. Hopefully he can illuminate us with more indepth wisdom. :) Thanks :) Would probably be wise really. Though I'm still maintaining that as written, it leaves tons open to interpretation, whether you choose to see it that way or not. ;)
GothicDan 04-29-07, 12:12 PM	What I've learned from this discussion is largely that I'm much more conservative in terms of idea discussion than I thought I was before it. It feels sort of like this- Me: See here, it says it's red in this book. Stigger/Markus: But it doesn't say it's not blue! Me: .... But it says it's RED, not blue. Stigger/Markus: But it COULD be blue, because it doesn't say otherwise! Me: *Shoots everyone in the forehead.*
Stigger 04-29-07, 12:30 PM	Not quite Dan... You're saying its red, and I'm asking what shade of red... Crimson, ruby, scarlet, what? Nuanced difference there. Not gonna speak for Markus though, he might be saying its blue... or orcish green maybe. ;)
GothicDan 04-29-07, 01:38 PM	And, to me, it doesn't really matter what shade of red it is. If red means evil, for instance, I don't care what form of evil they were, or why they were evil. They were still "red."
BrennonGoldeye 04-29-07, 01:42 PM	:detect: Looks red with golden highlights to me. Here, lets try through these firework glasses I got at the fair..:cool:...far out....
Stigger 04-29-07, 07:27 PM	That sort of attitude isn't going to serve you well in a scientific career Dan... :tongue: :D
theartistformerlyknownas 04-29-07, 08:11 PM	What I've learned from this discussion is largely that I'm much more conservative in terms of idea discussion than I thought I was before it. It feels sort of like this- Me: See here, it says it's red in this book. Stigger/Markus: But it doesn't say it's not blue! Me: .... But it says it's RED, not blue. Stigger/Markus: But it COULD be blue, because it doesn't say otherwise! Me: *Shoots everyone in the forehead.* Innocent bystanders, Dan!
Lord Karsus 04-29-07, 11:08 PM	Innocent bystanders, Dan! -I know! I was just about to say...
GothicDan 04-29-07, 11:16 PM	It works fine in the scientific community. We'd never be having a discussion like this. ;)
Lord Karsus 04-29-07, 11:24 PM	It works fine in the scientific community. We'd never be having a discussion like this. ;) -Anthropologists and sociologists are scientists too!
GothicDan 04-29-07, 11:34 PM	Lies.
Lord Karsus 04-29-07, 11:39 PM	-You see, not only would they would have already known you were going to say that, but they'd also be able to explain the factors that influenced your decision to say that. Good stuff, that sociology.
GothicDan 04-29-07, 11:47 PM	Don't make me bring out the YOUR MOM! jokes!
Lord Karsus 04-29-07, 11:57 PM	-Your momma's so fat, the only belt she can wear is the Belt Parkway... -Your momma's so dumb, that, when the computer said, "Press any key to continue", she started looking for the "any key"... -Your momma's so fat, when she stepped on a scale, it said, "To be continued"... -Your momma's so dumb that it took her an hour to make minute rice... -Your momma's so fat, when G-d said, "Let there be light", she stepped aside... -That's all I really remember. Man, that took me back to fifth grade! :)
MarkusTay63 04-30-07, 12:30 AM	-Anthropologists and sociologists are scientists too!And me, having been a sociology (and later psych) major. :P If we didn't have so many shades of grey in the world, B&W TV would have been much more boring then it was. There are no absolutes! As a subscriber to 'Chaos Theory' Dan, I thought you at least would concede that point. ;) And the item in question is actually any color but red, since red is the color of the light spectrum actually being reflected back at us from said object. All of the other colors are being absorbed and becoming part of the object. And it's a fact that every human mind registers color differently, so your Red might very well be my blue, so we wold both be correct inside of our own 'private realities'. But being an old Rocky Horror fan, I'm much more fond of Magenta. I have no problem, BTW, of excepting that 80+% of the Illythir were rotten to the core by the time the curse came down. It is the road up until that point, and how they got there, that I believe leaves open so much for us to 'discuss'. I don't think that anyone would disagree that today's Drow are wholely evil. In fact, I would be more then happy to explain to everyone why Driizt and Liriel are the two EVILEST Drow that ever lived. but that would open up a whole 'nother can of worms. It is the extent of the 'taint',and how widespread the corruption was that bears the closest scrutiny. Did the common soldierly merely suspect that 'dark magics' were being used and chose to look the other way, or were they fighting side-by-side with demons? In the end it all amounts to the same thing, but how fast did the evil spread and to what extent did commoners interact with it before those final four decades when their souls were lost for good? As Stigger pointed out, we are seeing different interpretations of 'Houses', which is a major point. I personally feel that only the nobles and a few select retainers were aware of everything going on, and by the time the rest of them realized how far their leaders had sunk there was no turning back. But like you say, that is just my opinion, and perhaps Stiggers, and nothing more. To each his own... live and let live... it's a great big wonderful setting, and there is room enough for all of us to live together in peace and harmony. After all, isn't that all the Illythiir ever wanted? :cool: sorry... couldn't help myself.... :hides:
Stigger 04-30-07, 01:23 AM	The venerable Timex Sinclair hadn't even been released when I was hearing those Your Momma jokes... bunch of little whippersnappers around here. :P It is the extent of the 'taint',and how widespread the corruption was that bears the closest scrutiny. Did the common soldierly merely suspect that 'dark magics' were being used and chose to look the other way, or were they fighting side-by-side with demons? In the end it all amounts to the same thing, but how fast did the evil spread and to what extent did commoners interact with it before those final four decades when their souls were lost for good? As Stigger pointed out, we are seeing different interpretations of 'Houses', which is a major point. I personally feel that only the nobles and a few select retainers were aware of everything going on, and by the time the rest of them realized how far their leaders had sunk there was no turning back. Pretty good summation from where I'm standing. :) The only thing we hear about with both the Aryvandaarans and the Ilythiiri is what the nobility was up to... without knowing what the commoners were doing, its hard to make a satisfying conclusion one way or another, as the nobles only represent a minute faction of society on both sides. It seems to me that we're judging a entire cultures based on what we know of what probably amounts to less than 5% of the population. If its okay to do that in the Ilythiiri's case, why is it not okay to do it in the Aryvandaarans case, since the only segments of the population that the authors seem to feel is important and worth mentioning specifically is the nobility?
Lord Karsus 04-30-07, 08:30 AM	And it's a fact that every human mind registers color differently, so your Red might very well be my blue, so we wold both be correct inside of our own 'private realities'. -Is that really true? I remember trying to have an intellectual, pseudophilosophical conversation with my stepfather, where I theorized that such was true. It was all conjecture, but it's interesting to see that I was actually right.
Suin Bahhar 04-30-07, 09:04 AM	And it's a fact that every human mind registers color differently, so your Red might very well be my blue, so we wold both be correct inside of our own 'private realities'. This is not true. Too an extant each indiviual mind processes a color diffenertly but we all see the same energylevel of a wavelength of light i.e. red are the lower energy level wavelengths / blue has a much higher energylevel wavelength. So blue is blue and cant be seen as red because the amount of input of energy starts the proces of visualisation. (hope this made sense to yooz)
The Ubbergeek 04-30-07, 11:38 AM	I don't think that anyone would disagree that today's Drow are wholely evil. In fact, I would be more then happy to explain to everyone why Driizt and Liriel are the two EVILEST Drow that ever lived. Judging by this and your opinion on the elves, you are confusing good and evil, it seems.
MarkusTay63 04-30-07, 04:47 PM	@ Suin Bahhar - you are talking about the visible light spectrum and how it relates to physics, I am dealing with the abstract workings of the human mind. In every instance we still see a gradual shift from red to blue, but it is how our minds 'percieve' red and blue that are different. Everyone of us sees a somewhat different world around, because our minds are all vastly different and learn to interpret data differently given cultural, geographical, and genetic differences. Example - We call it 'snow', the Inuit (eskimos) have over a hundred different words for different kinds of snow. Most of us see a single thing, but they perceive many types of snow that are too subtle for most of us. The second any of us are born, our minds start to go off in different directions, and why two sides of an argument could both think they are right. Until telepathy becomes the norm, we will always have wars because of our big, over-worked human brains. Animals have it easy, they don't 'think' so much. ;)
Stigger 04-30-07, 05:14 PM	Physics and Philosophy... never the two shall meet... well, not in one person anyway. :D And for the record, this was meant faceteously as well. :tongue:
Philalexandros 04-30-07, 06:47 PM	There are no absolutes! As a subscriber to 'Chaos Theory' Dan, I thought you at least would concede that point. ;) In a make-believe game of finite rules and a contrived mythos/history, yes, there are. I have no problem, BTW, of excepting that 80+% of the Illythir were rotten to the core by the time the curse came down. It is the road up until that point, and how they got there, that I believe leaves open so much for us to 'discuss'. Well, I admire this... It's just that your argument should be with game developers that hamper your outlook with things like this: Cormanthyr, Page 11: * These are dark elves from before the Crown Wars; once the Crown Wars begin, the dark elves degenerate swiftly and solely into the worship of Lolth and other dark powers such as Vhaerun and Ghaunadar. Or the second paragraph of the Crown Wars chapter in LEoF, which states that one elf subrace (the Ilythiiri) was twisted into evil. I don't think that anyone would disagree that today's Drow are wholely evil. It's funny how you get things backward. Unlike the Ilythiiri, the Drow are qualified as being approximately 15% non-evil worshippers of Eilistraee. In fact, I would be more then happy to explain to everyone why Driizt and Liriel are the two EVILEST Drow that ever lived. I'm interested. :)
Stigger 04-30-07, 07:23 PM	Since you're sticking that up in both threads, I'm just gonna copy and paste this from the other one... :tongue: And for the record, I completely disagree that there are absolutes simply because this is fictional and conforming to a ruleset that's meant to give us an approximation of simulating the world, rather than an absolute definition of it. Though to be fair, I'm 99% certain that Markus knows about that 15%/22% thing, and that he was referring to the 'average' drow being wholly evil, as opposed to the question we have about the 'average' Ilythiiri. Nope, no such arguement from me... and I have read that particular passage by the way. My problem is that if Lolth is sending her little minions in to corrupt the nobles, by what process did the commoners come under her sway... that seems a big, glaring, unanswered question. That they did eventually isn't really open to debate, since that's well established fact. My question is if the commoners fell into line with the nobility and those dark powers before or after the Descent. Since the texts in general only refer to the Ilythiiri in a remarkably vague way, I see that as being a valid question. That the nobles began worshipping those dark powers and demonic entities is explained. Even the whys of it, which are certainly logical reasons. But why would the commoners do it, since they certainly don't receive much benefit from it? Was the culture set up so that you worshipped the same deity as your local lord, without much choice in the matter? Did they go willingly into that darkness, or did they do it because their nobles held their lives over their heads if they didn't? You seem willing to accept it at face value that they were all evil and corrupt to begin with, and just needed a nudge to finally plunge into the abyss. Having studied history, and the methods used by the Church and secular rulers to 'convert' the locals (the Reconquista of Moorish Spain in particular coming to mind, and pretty much the Inquisition in general, though not the pop-culture version of it, the actual one that was more concerned with heresy rather than the witchcraft (interestingly, believing in witchcraft was itself a heresy for a substantial period) craze Kramer and Sprenger started with the Malleus Maleficarum, which was mostly secular in nature), I have a hard time accepting that at face value. Hence my question as to if the Descent was actually a deserved fate for the commoners, at the time. Though as a post script, I'm kinda curious as to how Markus is going to prove that one myself... can't even begin to wrap my brain around that logic. :blink:
Suin Bahhar 04-30-07, 08:01 PM	@ Suin Bahhar - you are talking about the visible light spectrum and how it relates to physics, I am dealing with the abstract workings of the human mind. I don't believe the mind works that abstractly. Each person has to cope with the same way of percieving the environment, sight, smell, touch and sound. The concepts of naming things (in different languages) complicates the facts of scientific observations. A universal language (common?... latin?) would serve science a lot. Certain associations and the values you attach to a single word or color will be shaped by your personal view of a color. Blue is cold and detached, red is hot and intense. These values can change from person to person. But everyone still sees the color blue as blue (unless they are colorblind). @ In every instance we still see a gradual shift from red to blue, but it is how our minds 'percieve' red and blue that are different. Example - We call it 'snow', the Inuit (eskimos) have over a hundred different words for different kinds of snow. Most of us see a single thing, but they perceive many types of snow that are too subtle for most of us. The second any of us are born, our minds start to go off in different directions, and why two sides of an argument could both think they are right. Until telepathy becomes the norm, we will always have wars because of our big, over-worked human brains. Animals have it easy, they don't 'think' so much. ;) No, each person is equipped with the same sensors to percieve, i.e. eyes for light, ears for sound, skin for touch and pressure. A color of light that has the property of a blue lightbeam will be percieved the same by two totally different persons, but given different names or descriptions. A name of blue will be different to a culturally different person but the meaning is the same (i.e. the lowenergy lightwave). OK a person will be able to enjoy a colorful movie because he will proces the same lightwaves a director has chosen to put into the scenes. Green = green = green ; you know what I mean?
Philalexandros 04-30-07, 10:02 PM	Stigger, You violated the Two-Threads Truce! My deeds were justified! I'm sending my High Magi after you! ;)
Stigger 05-01-07, 02:04 AM	You quoted that passage from C:EotE in both threads first, so I'm pinning the truce violation to your chest to go with the other ribbons there. :tongue: ;)
Zanan 05-01-07, 03:31 AM	BTW ... keep reminding yourself that general remarks about a entire nation's / sub-races alignment is good enough for D&D games, it hardly holds when you go into detail. It is much like everyone knows that drow are by default CE or NE, yet, after years of indoctrination, a band of adventurers happens onto a whole village of Eilistraeens and stands dumbfounded. IMHO, Ilythiiri life was more like Thay these days. After thousands of years of indoctrination, it surely had a darker taint though. Yet, the average Ilythiiri "peasant" may not have been a bloodthirsty monster though. All up for debate, of course. Luckily, I made my Will save 'roundabout page 8 :D
Suin Bahhar 05-01-07, 07:19 AM	The comparision with Thay is a pretty good one. The ruling families of the Illithiir would be devided by their patron demons. So they were using slaves for labor like the construction of fortresses like Athamault, or was it mostly magic? The dark elf nobles had to give a pretty normal "facevalue" impression they werent corrupted to the other elves if dealing with foreign politics and trade. So a refined and slow corruption would fit the period of like 6000 years before the dark disaster. After the attacks the nobles would be far more open in their worship of demons because the masses of dark elves already felt offended by the gold elves and they couldnt care which patron gave them power to strike back. The honor of the troops was used to corrupt the elven warrior code to a wholly different bloodthirsty end. The troops of Aryvandaar did not have this transformation, they kept "fighting elflike". This is also an indication the corruption of the dark elves was more embedded throughout the commoners of the illithiiri society. How would you react if you were a swordmaster for a Illithiiri noble house and your superior assigns you to a unit with the (suicide) mission to attack several moonelven settlements with aryvandaaran military stations in it. All the swordmaster has is his training and 4 or 5 companions. He would gladly take the help of a (disguised) demon to bolster his military chances. These choices are made by the higher rankings after all. After the briefing of a terrible failure they say anything goes to stop the devillish aryvandaaran so they get more and more comfortable using vile powers and demons and eventually drive out the Aryvandaaran bastions but destroy everything surrouding the bastions as well.
Stigger 05-01-07, 07:59 AM	Just as much supposition there I would say... though honestly we have no idea what constituted 'elflike fighting' during that period, considering just how different the elves of that period seem to be from modern day elves. And there are a few passages in there that hint that the Aryvandaarans weren't exactly nice guys when it came to fighting, while qualifying that the Ilythiiri were just worse. "... tales of Ilythiiri atrocities that made the actions of the Aryvandaar for the past several centuries seem tame by comparison." That sentence says to me that the Aryvandaarans were pushing it for a while, and had developed something of a reputation, which the Ilythiiri managed to exceed. Though as a side note, after having refreshed my memory with a quick reread, I'm not sure where the idea that Keltormir and Ilythiir were allied came up. Nothing really hints at that one, and the closest I could find to even suggesting it was a reference of "erstwhile brethern's", which I took to mean more 'fellow elves' rather than 'wayward ally'... I mean Keltormir had supplied a few (minimal was the way it was described I think) troops or support to the war efforts of Thearnytaar, Eiellur, and Syorpiir against Ilythiir. Which would have given the Ilythiiri at least a quasii-legitimate causus belli against them. Though to be honest, the whole Crown War period reads more like something out of early European history than something about elves... and makes them out as little better than their European counterparts of the time. Not very elf-like at all really...
Philalexandros 05-01-07, 08:11 AM	You quoted that passage from C:EotE in both threads first, so I'm pinning the truce violation to your chest to go with the other ribbons there. :tongue: ;) No way! You initiated dialogue in both threads, to which I responded with my double-threat citation! ;) ... though honestly we have no idea what constituted 'elflike fighting' during that period, considering just how different the elves of that period seem to be from modern day elves. We know what didn't, though... the wholesale destruction of entire realms. Something I forgot about earlier, also, Stigger: the very size of the realms in question does away with the idea of "accidental" destruction. Any cursory check on the effects of even the greatest of uncontrolled forest fires should reveal that. That sentence says to me that the Aryvandaarans were pushing it for a while, and had developed something of a reputation, which the Ilythiiri managed to exceed. To me it shows that the Ilythiiri went beyond mere aggressive war (aggressive = self-inititated; not defensive). I very much agree with your last statement, incidentally (re: Europe).
Stigger 05-01-07, 08:41 AM	Well, C:EotE did more to dispel that thought than any size issues did, considering it mentioned tactics the Ilythiiri used, and why. Though they were fairly clever tactics really, and obviously effective. Still see them as militarily valid, even if culturally taboo. Which pretty much invalidates my take as the original acts being accidental, even with the initial attack on Orishaar. But fire is a very effective weapon... though I can't help but wonder why there were no druids about to counter those fires in the first place. Seems a really wobbly deus ex sort of scenario to me... why wouldn't you be prepared for fire if you lived in a forest, and after the first use of it, why wouldn't the other nations prepare for that contingency... very shaky logic if you ask me. Not sure I agree with the idea that the Aryvandaarans were simply viewed as aggressive, but I can see your point. Doesn't mean I agree with it though. They had to be doing something worse than merely aggressive to get handed a death sentence for the Vyshaan after all, and it seems that Malkazid remained hidden, as did their involvement with the Killing Storm, so war crimes is about the only other thing that comes to mind. Not on the level of the Ilythiiri, but still pretty bad. Don't recall initiating any dialogues on both thread, not directed at you anyway... could be wrong on that though, wasn't feeling that great a few days ago. Damned flu is lingering still... not as bad as it was, but I can't quite shake the chest rattle, going on four weeks now. Supposedly it runs 6 weeks... putting me in a fabulous state of mind really lol.
Philalexandros 05-01-07, 01:29 PM	Well, C:EotE did more to dispel that thought than any size issues did, considering it mentioned tactics the Ilythiiri used, and why. Though they were fairly clever tactics really, and obviously effective. Still see them as militarily valid, even if culturally taboo. Stigger. It wasn't fire as in to smoke an opponent out. It was the razing of an entire realm. That's not valid. But fire is a very effective weapon... though I can't help but wonder why there were no druids about to counter those fires in the first place. Seems a really wobbly deus ex sort of scenario to me... Really? Off the top of your head, how many epic Druids do you see in the Elven mythos--versus epic High Magi? Not sure I agree with the idea that the Aryvandaarans were simply viewed as aggressive, but I can see your point. Doesn't mean I agree with it though. They had to be doing something worse than merely aggressive to get handed a death sentence for the Vyshaan after all, ... They were found guilty of being the driving force behind thousands of years of total warfare that led to the destruction of several realms. Seems about right. ;) ... so war crimes is about the only other thing that comes to mind. Not on the level of the Ilythiiri, but still pretty bad. But not enough to even get a single mention? ;) Hope you feel better!
Lord Karsus 05-01-07, 06:26 PM	These values can change from person to person. But everyone still sees the color blue as blue (unless they are colorblind). No, each person is equipped with the same sensors to percieve, i.e. eyes for light, ears for sound, skin for touch and pressure. A color of light that has the property of a blue lightbeam will be percieved the same by two totally different persons, but given different names or descriptions. A name of blue will be different to a culturally different person but the meaning is the same (i.e. the lowenergy lightwave). OK a person will be able to enjoy a colorful movie because he will proces the same lightwaves a director has chosen to put into the scenes. Green = green = green ; you know what I mean? -So you think. But, when we are maddened with fever, we see things that are, in reality, not actually there. Our senses lie to us. Thus, we cannot trust our own senses. So, when I see "blue", how do I know that I'm not really seeing "red", or "yellow", or "green"? I hear things that are not actually being said. Can I now trust anything that I hear? Green does not always equal green does not always equal green now...:) -Oh, and I remembered another "Your Momma" Joke! Your Momma's so fat, she has her own zip code. That one's a classic...:D
Stigger 05-01-07, 07:41 PM	Stigger. It wasn't fire as in to smoke an opponent out. It was the razing of an entire realm. That's not valid. Total War, taken to a scorched earth level... that's a perfectly valid military policy. Distasteful and just a little on the evil side of things, but still valid. How was the razing of Carthage much different? Or all the attempted saltings that happened in the British Isles (damned rain!)? Really? Off the top of your head, how many epic Druids do you see in the Elven mythos--versus epic High Magi? Quench is only a 3rd level spell... hardly a need for epic there, and nothing in there says they used magical fire until after the Dark Disaster, simply that they set things on fire. Besides that, Magic of Faerun implied that what eventually became the Fire Spiders spell was their preferred method of burning things, which is hardly epic at 6th level. They were found guilty of being the driving force behind thousands of years of total warfare that led to the destruction of several realms. Seems about right. ;) The rulers were... but the soldiers who actually went out and did their bidding get away without much more beyond a 'bad elf, no biscuit' comment, if that... But not enough to even get a single mention? ;) Of course it was mentioned, albeit indirectly, simply qualified as being tame compared to the Ilythiiri's. Hope you feel better! Thanks. Getting there, slowly but surely. :)
Philalexandros 05-01-07, 08:08 PM	Total War, taken to a scorched earth level... that's a perfectly valid military policy. Whoa there! That's your opinion, and one that in no way is in line with the stated Elven cultural mindset of the time. Quench is only a 3rd level spell... Yes, yes, but obviously such tools were not up the task. ;) The rulers were... but the soldiers who actually went out and did their bidding get away without much more beyond a 'bad elf, no biscuit' comment, if that... But, again, there is no reference to them doing anything more than waging a war. Did we not already argue ad nauseum the whole "capacity for war" thing? Of course it was mentioned, albeit indirectly, simply qualified as being tame compared to the Ilythiiri's. My Little Pony is tame compared to Ilythiir. So is Miller Light Beer. A lot of things are also tamed compared to the Ilythiiri. Aryvandaari soldiers are never mentioned as engaging in cruelty or razing realms, or in teaming up with demons. ;) Glad to hear you're getting there. :)
Stigger 05-01-07, 10:23 PM	The difference between atrocity and military brilliance is usually defined by who writes the history books about it, hence Total War with a scorched earth policy is indeed a valid military tactic. That its not in line with the elven mindset or culture doesn't take away its utility or effectiveness. Though thinking about it, it does remove the land grab premise in a lot of respects, since it negated the utility of seizing the land in the first place... puts a considerably more evil spin on them really, which doesn't exactly help my point of view. Ah well, kinda nice to know some discussion can still lead to new understanding. Not so sure about the spells not being up to the task so much as being necessary to illustrate the savagery and evil of the Ilythiiri. It still strikes me as very illogical that those kingdoms didn't have effective fire fighting techniques. Semi-literary license is what I'm chalking that one up to more than clear cut logic. C'mon... that My Little Pony bit is a disingenuous cheap shot and you know it. The context was clearly pointed out as being actions during a war, and there was a fairly obvious implication that the Aryvandaarans weren't exactly nice guys to fight a war with... just not as bad as the Ilythiiri.
Philalexandros 05-01-07, 11:14 PM	Though thinking about it, it does remove the land grab premise in a lot of respects, since it negated the utility of seizing the land in the first place... puts a considerably more evil spin on them really, which doesn't exactly help my point of view. Ah well, kinda nice to know some discussion can still lead to new understanding. It's also one of two different things that I have failed to put into my posts for the past few days. The other being less definitive by far--the idea of the House being an extended family unit beyond simply a political unit, and what this would mean when corruption started worming its way through. Not so sure about the spells not being up to the task so much as being necessary to illustrate the savagery and evil of the Ilythiiri. Perhaps. But see below. It still strikes me as very illogical that those kingdoms didn't have effective fire fighting techniques. Semi-literary license is what I'm chalking that one up to more than clear cut logic. Pre-9/11, we had suffered plenty of terrorist threats, attacks, etc. Yet our security infrastructure was ridiculously lax compared to Europe's (which I grew up with). By contrast, prior to the Crown Wars, no one had any reason to fear the razing techniques of the sort the Ilythiiri brought to play prior. C'mon... that My Little Pony bit is a disingenuous cheap shot and you know it. I know, I know. :) For the record, anything I post with a winky by it is not meant seriously--it's there for both of us to snicker at (if you so choose). The context was clearly pointed out as being actions during a war, and there was a fairly obvious implication that the Aryvandaarans weren't exactly nice guys to fight a war with... just not as bad as the Ilythiiri. I still don't see why no mention of any cruelties or war crimes or such was made, though.
Stigger 05-02-07, 01:27 AM	The House thing is a bit more questionable, since I'm not sure we have a historical period context definition of what that meant during the Crown War period. Almost unarguably, elven culture and society were tremendously different during that period than they are in their modern incarnation, and while there might be a traceable chain of evolution (can almost hear Dan grinding his teeth over that word) between then and now, I don't think they likely meant the same thing. And given the apparent vast differences between the Ilythiiri and everyone else, there was probably a very different structure to them than we know today. As to the fire issue... fire was and is an everpresent threat to anyone living in what is essentially a flammable environment. The elves had fought dragons, which presumably included reds, so I can't quite fathom why fire used against them would come as such a great surprise. Perhaps the quarter it came from would be surprising, but not the tactic. Maybe its the living in California part and knowing a lot of firemen, but forest fires and wildfires can be devastating and move remarkably fast. Hard to imagine that they wouldn't have a fairly robust defense against it for me. Because perhaps it was implied through the rest of the text. If they were willing to go from pacification efforts to Killing Storm in a relatively short period of time, it would suggest that their best efforts weren't having much of an effect. You could interpret it as their brutality having an opposite effect than intended, or you could interpret it as not wanting to push their own soldiers to commit that level of atrocity and revealing their own corruption too obviously. A good case for either could be made really, so that is certainly a prime example of being very open interpretation.
Philalexandros 05-02-07, 08:34 AM	The House thing is a bit more questionable, since I'm not sure we have a historical period context definition of what that meant during the Crown War period. Almost unarguably, elven culture and society were tremendously different during that period than they are in their modern incarnation, and while there might be a traceable chain of evolution (can almost hear Dan grinding his teeth over that word) between then and now, I don't think they likely meant the same thing. And given the apparent vast differences between the Ilythiiri and everyone else, there was probably a very different structure to them than we know today. Agreed. As to the fire issue... fire was and is an everpresent threat to anyone living in what is essentially a flammable environment. The elves had fought dragons, which presumably included reds, so I can't quite fathom why fire used against them would come as such a great surprise. You make my point for me... The dragons were, at that time, the great elf-foe. For Elves to use the same sort of tactic... Maybe its the living in California part and knowing a lot of firemen, but forest fires and wildfires can be devastating and move remarkably fast. Hard to imagine that they wouldn't have a fairly robust defense against it for me. As stated earlier, I think it's implied that defensive means (such as the magic you cited) was simply not enough. Also, I think you're assuming that the fire attacks were mundane. Mundane fires, even unchecked ones, do not consume forestlands the size of entire Elven realms.
Stigger 05-02-07, 08:54 AM	I never contested the idea that it was an unexpected vector of attack, simply that the tactic itself wouldn't exactly be unknown to the elves, which "Perhaps the quarter it came from would be surprising, but not the tactic." should have conveyed. ;) Nowhere did it say that the fires themselves did in the whole realm all at once. They used fire to isolate and pin down their foes. I got the impression they used fire to raze the places after they had acheived a military victory. Still seems a little contrived to me... not impossible, just unlikely to my mind. The first one, sure, I'm there, the tactic came out of the blue for them, so them falling to it makes sense. After that first use though, the shock should have been gone, and if the other two declared war, the must have known about it, presumably looked into the tactic, and there's no reason they shouldn't have been at least somewhat prepared for it with a decent chance of countering it. And no, natural fires don't consume areas that large... but they can consume your village pretty easily, and if you've the chance of having a red dragon coming by for barbecued elf, then you take serious precautions against magical fire. From my understanding these areas were near the Lake of Steam region, which has at the least 1 volcano nearby, and a few others as well in the region if I'm remembering it correctly. Reds wouldn't exactly be an uncommon thing around there at the time, at least I would think they would be... just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that they'd be that unprepared for fire, magical or mundane.
Philalexandros 05-02-07, 06:17 PM	I never contested the idea that it was an unexpected vector of attack, simply that the tactic itself wouldn't exactly be unknown to the elves, which "Perhaps the quarter it came from would be surprising, but not the tactic." should have conveyed. ;) I understand that. What I'm getting at is that, if there was no quarter to have feared it from in such a long time... Why would the preparation have been there to begin with? But, again, a moot point since we disagree on something much more fundamental--the notion that they were capable of defending from the tools the Ilythiiri used for that sort of attack to begin with. :) Nowhere did it say that the fires themselves did in the whole realm all at once. They used fire to isolate and pin down their foes. Whoa, whoa. Where does it say that? The latter statement, I mean. I got the impression they used fire to raze the places after they had acheived a military victory. Still seems a little contrived to me... not impossible, just unlikely to my mind. What, the idea that vicious sadists increasingly tied into demon alliances would shirk at destroying their enemies' homelands? ;)
Prince Indirian 05-02-07, 11:46 PM	Not so sure about the spells not being up to the task so much as being necessary to illustrate the savagery and evil of the Ilythiiri. It still strikes me as very illogical that those kingdoms didn't have effective fire fighting techniques. Semi-literary license is what I'm chalking that one up to more than clear cut logic. Yes especially considering that the elves“had fought dragons for ages. And we are not talking about one dragon or so, but many. During the Elven Golde Age, dragons were really a threat, not to mention far more powerful than they are today
GothicDan 05-03-07, 02:00 AM	Considering their fiendish ties, it would make sense to me for the Ilythiiri to have eventually used non-standard magical fires... 'Vile' fire, balefire, hellfire, or whatever you want to call it. The defenses that the Elves would have developed versus dragon fire would not have been too effective for that.
Stigger 05-03-07, 02:35 AM	Phil, page 30 of C:EoE (wonder why I thought a 'the' was in there somewhere...), at the -11,600 and -11,400 entries. -11,400 Fall of Eiellur as the Ilythiiri once again use fire to destroy their realm around them and isolate them from aid. If they got a reputation for savagery, its hard to imagine that they didn't send in ground troops... if it was just a use of fire and shocking elven sensibilities... they hardly needed demonic patrons for that. And what precisely does 'corrupt' magic mean? It could mean a lot of things depending on how you view that word, and there was no really good way to determine what that means under 2e, as their use of terminology could flow fast and free at times when it came to descriptions of magic. A spell with the evil descriptor, like protection from good, could easily qualify as 'corrupt' magic these days... was even more amorphous a term back them as far as I'm aware. And there isn't much in the magical repetoire of evil that I can think of that remarkably persistent in burning.. nor would adding a vile descriptor or evil descriptor to a 'normal' spells damage would make them any more difficult to put out that I'm aware of. I could be off base about that, but nothing I recall seeing ever mentioned anything of the kind.
GothicDan 05-03-07, 02:47 AM	If something is targeted to reduce or negate Fire damage, it will do nothing to stop the Vile damage. And in the case of some magical fire (like Hellfire from the BoVD), half of the damage is not Fire at all. I think it's referred to as pure evil energy... Profane damage, maybe? Hellfire/balefire/etc. is a staple for archetypal evil fiends. It would make sense to differentiate it from the holy fires of, say, Zoroastrian fame.
Stigger 05-03-07, 02:53 AM	Unholy and Vile damage were the only two I recall... besides, Vile damage is spiritual in nature from what I understood, rather than physical. Evil energy might linger about, but I can't see why a fire infused with it would be any harder to extinguish than other fires, just harder to deal with when it managed to damag you. Hellfire was a pretty recent thing as well... think it mentioned something about Mephistopholes discovering it or something, but not that long ago, I think... A bit fuzzy on that point though, and I don't feel like getting up and looking just now.
Khaelieth 05-03-07, 06:49 AM	The difference between atrocity and military brilliance is usually defined by who writes the history books about it, hence Total War with a scorched earth policy is indeed a valid military tactic. Agreed. The Elves later razed Jaamdath if I remember correctly, so whether it clashes that much with their culture is debatable. They kicked in a mythal to make dragons go nuts and kill each other so they could survive. Elves are survivalists.
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 08:36 AM	If they got a reputation for savagery, its hard to imagine that they didn't send in ground troops.. Because... it would be unnecessary to do so? Why would you send foot soldiers in the middle of a burning realm? if it was just a use of fire and shocking elven sensibilities... they hardly needed demonic patrons for that. But they had them, nonetheless. And what precisely does 'corrupt' magic mean? It could mean a lot of things depending on how you view that word, and there was no really good way to determine what that means under 2e, as their use of terminology could flow fast and free at times when it came to descriptions of magic. A spell with the evil descriptor, like protection from good, could easily qualify as 'corrupt' magic these days... was even more amorphous a term back them as far as I'm aware. And there isn't much in the magical repetoire of evil that I can think of that remarkably persistent in burning.. nor would adding a vile descriptor or evil descriptor to a 'normal' spells damage would make them any more difficult to put out that I'm aware of. I could be off base about that, but nothing I recall seeing ever mentioned anything of the kind. You're assuming we know all there is to know about magic throughout Faerunian history. The Iron Pit (LEoF) is proof-positive that this isn't the case. Here's the sentence, if you like, from page 58: "In the underground alchemical laboratories of Athamault, the Ilythiiri created twisted monstrosities and researched unholy spells of such vile nature that even the drow of today hesitate to use them." Does this finally do away with the above contentions? ;)
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 08:46 AM	Agreed. The Elves later razed Jaamdath if I remember correctly, so whether it clashes that much with their culture is debatable. They kicked in a mythal to make dragons go nuts and kill each other so they could survive. Elves are survivalists. First off, they used high magic to bring forth a great wave that washed away their empire. Tsunamis are rather devastating affairs, but they don't cripple ecosystems. Thus, aside from the tremendous loss of human life, such a weapon did not violate elven ethos, per se. Secondly, you forgot to mention that the elves of that realm had lost 90% of their population in 20 years and seen all but one of their cities destroyed. This was hardly a callous use of extreme means to destroy an enemy in an aggressive war. This was a last-ditch effort to survive (as you said), but it is very telling that they waited until that point to use such a weapon. There is no corrolation between this incident and the use of "unholy, vile" spells and demonic allies in the Crown Wars, except for the lowest common denominators.
Stigger 05-03-07, 08:56 AM	Not really... just says to me that the fire wasn't the main weapon against the people, and was mostly acting as a screen to keep the fights intimate and from being supported by outside forces. Those unholy spells were more likely the 'tree-screamers' and theiri ilk they used after the Killing Storm had been unleashed, along with their pet monsters and undead, since there's hardly a reason to go after 'unholy fires' when you can direct hordes of spidery fire elementals to cut off your enemies from support and move your troops in towards a shocked and effectively encircled enemy. Why not give your troops the experience of battle instead of relying on a single tactic that might eventually be countered? The longer the time they gave their enemies to react, the more likely they'd be to find a way to counteract your tactics and negate them. So, they obviously (to me anyway) were working on several different methods of bringing about their enemies deaths, as the Athamault lab indicated. Fire was one of the first weapons they used, and as the lab probably wasn't fully 'online' when they launched their first attacks, I find it more likely that they used it to look for alternatives to that fire rather than having developed the tactic there. Not sure a dragon would agree with you one the whole dracorage issue... there Phil, and those massive tidal wave spells probably were just sitting around for bookends? I think the point of that was that they certainly considered using spells like that if they already knew how to craft them in the first place... Hopefully you get the point there, I'm phrasing that a bit poorly, but I'm getting very distracted at the moment.
Khaelieth 05-03-07, 09:13 AM	First off, they used high magic to bring forth a great wave that washed away their empire. Tsunamis are rather devastating affairs, but they don't cripple ecosystems. Thus, aside from the tremendous loss of human life, such a weapon did not violate elven ethos, per se. Cripple the ecosystem? They did that. There are fish swimming in the ancient streets of Jaamdath. Ever seen the picture of Jaamdath in LEoF? And like Stigger said, they had done the research before. Who knows what other surprises the elves have in store for a large scale war with a visible enemy?
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 09:27 AM	Cripple the ecosystem? -I wouldn't say they 'crippled the ecosystem'. That makes me think of something akin to radiation poisoning, or something like that. They changed the ecosystem.
Khaelieth 05-03-07, 09:44 AM	Agreed, LK. I was thinking it was the wrong words to use when I wrote it, but that's the words Philalexandros used.
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 05:25 PM	Cripple the ecosystem? They did that. There are fish swimming in the ancient streets of Jaamdath. Ever seen the picture of Jaamdath in LEoF? And like Stigger said, they had done the research before. Who knows what other surprises the elves have in store for a large scale war with a visible enemy? Very true--and I concede that. The overall point remains though; an act of desperation to prevent total annihilation versus an unnecessarily aggressive act. And, no, to answer an earlier point: total war is not always justified by the victors' accounts. Especially not when it comes to wholesale destruction. Unlike FR elves, we humans are hardly bound--spiritually and culturally--to our chosen environment, but there is a tradition of decrying and criticizing the excesses of war.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 05:52 PM	Unlike FR elves, we humans are hardly bound--spiritually and culturally--to our chosen environment, but there is a tradition of decrying and criticizing the excesses of war. -Untrue, to a degree. Judiasm, Christianity and Islam all inherently connected to Jerusalem, and other areas of the Middle East. Multiple animistic religions stress the local environment (spirits and such). Said religions aren't bound, per se, to these areas, but said areas play very important roles for said religions, and the members thereof. -And, if you want to interpret this broadly, we (all Humans) are bound to our environment (The Earth).
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 06:32 PM	That's not what I'm talking about, LK. Jews might be tied to Jerusalem, but their moral ethos do not preclude them from sieging or destroying urban centers/environments. They would feel a level of religious outrage at the idea of someone trying to lay siege to this holy city of theirs, but it wouldn't be of a sort that implied horrified shock at the very notion of someone *trying* it. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 06:43 PM	...but their moral ethos do not preclude them from sieging or destroying urban centers/environments. -Well, there is that "You shall not murder" clause in the Big Three (Judiasm, Christianity & Islam). While the two are not the same, laying siege to a particular area usually goes hand in hand with killing said residents. They would feel a level of religious outrage at the idea of someone trying to lay siege to this holy city of theirs, but it wouldn't be of a sort that implied horrified shock at the very notion of someone *trying* it. ;) -Who are you to say that no one would feel outrage if someone tried it? I know that I, for one, would be shocked if any individual or group tried to lay siege to Jerusalem, or any other city of that kind of status (Mecca, Vatican City). That's something that you "just don't do". I can assure you that there are others out there who would feel the same way, for multiple reasons (religion, culture, loss of history...)
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 06:57 PM	LK, the point I'm making is that to the population of Jerusalem the act of someone trying to siege their city, while religiously offensive, would not be novel or alien. Nothing (that I recall, anyways) in Biblical history suggests that neither Jews, nor anyone really, else would be shocked at an attempt to commit murder, destroy an urban setting, etc. On the other hand, elves obviously were shocked that other elves would go so far as to raze entire realms' worth of forests. The examples thus don't exactly match up.
Khaelieth 05-03-07, 07:07 PM	Elves in general do not tear up forests - in Races of Faerūn, it's written that even the fey'ri were reluctant to use spells like fireball in forests (though whether that was the case in a certain trilogy is debatable). So it's natural that even if they've got the power, they are reluctant to use it, but they can still teach the upstart humans are lesson or two in the use of destruction.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 07:14 PM	-The point remains, however, that groups are spiritually and culturally "connected" to the places where they live.
Khaelieth 05-03-07, 07:19 PM	-The point remains, however, that groups are spiritually and culturally "connected" to the places where they live. Not to the same extent in Faerūn I believe. Tantras might be holy to Tormites, Evermeet to worshipers of the Seldarine and the High Forest to some of the nature gods. They just don't have the equivelant of Jerusalem, Mecca and Rome.
Stigger 05-03-07, 07:33 PM	Sure they have the equivalents, they just don't take them to the extremes that the various faiths of the Book do. And mankind is supposed to be connected to the environment in a spiritual sense, as we're supposed to be the caretakers and guardians of the world, at least from what I recall of my biblical studies. Obviously we dropped the ball somewhere along the way, but still... and we started interpreting that as God will take care of everything and we can pretty much do what we want, which was particularly bad during the Victoriana period... gets me mad just thinking about it really.
The Ubbergeek 05-03-07, 08:30 PM	Well, Evermeet is an huge Jerusalem in the mystical sense. ;) Imagine what would happens if it felt....
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 10:14 PM	-The point remains, however, that groups are spiritually and culturally "connected" to the places where they live. LK, no offense, but you're playing with language/semantics. I can't prevent you from using words as you choose. You know and I know, though, that human beings have a tradition of attacking and destroying urban centers as a matter of strategy, expediency, and even pleasure in a way that simply does not corrolate with elven ideas about their realms pre-Second War.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 10:53 PM	LK, no offense, but you're playing with language/semantics. I can't prevent you from using words as you choose. You know and I know, though, that human beings have a tradition of attacking and destroying urban centers as a matter of strategy, expediency, and even pleasure in a way that simply does not corrolate with elven ideas about their realms pre-Second War. -I am not talking about that any longer. You said, "Unlike FR elves, we humans are hardly bound--spiritually and culturally--to our chosen environment, but there is a tradition of decrying and criticizing the excesses of war". This is all I was refuting.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 10:56 PM	Not to the same extent in Faerūn I believe. Tantras might be holy to Tormites, Evermeet to worshipers of the Seldarine and the High Forest to some of the nature gods. They just don't have the equivelant of Jerusalem, Mecca and Rome. -Isn't that how it is in the actual world? Mecca is holy to Muslims, the Vatican is holy to Christians, Jerusalem is holy to Jews, Muslims and Christians, Shamballah is holy to Tibetan Buddhists...Tantras is holy to Tormites, Evermeet is holy to the worshippers of the Seldarine, the High Forest to some nature deities...
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 11:05 PM	-I am not talking about that any longer. You said, "Unlike FR elves, we humans are hardly bound--spiritually and culturally--to our chosen environment, but there is a tradition of decrying and criticizing the excesses of war". This is all I was refuting. Then I'm sorry to say that you were quibbling about word usage. You knew full well the point I was making regarding the difference between human siege and Ilythiiri razings, did you not? ;) Yes, humans do have holy places. Yes, they are central to their beliefs and cultures. No, the process of damaging and destroying those places is not nearly as novel and shocking as the stated "exception to the rule" the Ilythiiri action was.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 11:19 PM	Then I'm sorry to say that you were quibbling about word usage. You knew full well the point I was making regarding the difference between human siege and Ilythiiri razings, did you not? ;) Yes, humans do have holy places. Yes, they are central to their beliefs and cultures. No, the process of damaging and destroying those places is not nearly as novel and shocking as the stated "exception to the rule" the Ilythiiri action was. -Come on...At this point, I think we've earned it! :pint:
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 11:20 PM	I bet you don't have a bottle of beer on you right now. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 11:27 PM	-No, no I don't. I don't drink at all, actually. My paternal family has that alcoholic gene, and I really don't want to go down that path...:(
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 11:48 PM	Well...[removes size 12 show] how about a lemonade, instead? (I was bluffing on the beer, anyways... lemonade's all I got tonight)
Lord Karsus 05-04-07, 12:11 AM	Well...[removes size 12 show] how about a lemonade, instead? (I was bluffing on the beer, anyways... lemonade's all I got tonight) -Good enough for me! :) :pint:
Stigger 05-04-07, 01:41 AM	I can sympathize LK, that's the reason I don't drink either. :)
Khaelieth 05-04-07, 12:51 PM	-Isn't that how it is in the actual world? Mecca is holy to Muslims, the Vatican is holy to Christians, Jerusalem is holy to Jews, Muslims and Christians, Shamballah is holy to Tibetan Buddhists...Tantras is holy to Tormites, Evermeet is holy to the worshippers of the Seldarine, the High Forest to some nature deities... I'm saying that Tormites aren't likely to storm Tantras if Sune rises to be the most prominent godess there=) And tbh, beer/ale is best, but can't drink any of the stuff that the USanians and Canadians brew, tastes like near-frozen gnat's urine. I'll have a guinness any day.
MarkusTay63 05-04-07, 03:39 PM	Guinness, Yummm! The 'all-purpose' liquid. You can get drunk with it, or pave a highway, your choice. ;) I was the champion Guiness drinker back in my day, but that's because most of my fellow Americans don't enjoy the taste of unrefined barrel sludge. :dancin: Though I tend to mix it when I want something delicious... nothing like a "Black'N'Tan" :drool:
Philalexandros 05-04-07, 04:17 PM	See Markus, I knew we'd agree on something. Guinness is pure nectar! :cloud9: I've never Black-and-Tanned it, but I'm not averse to the occasional Carbomb as a means of ending the night.
Khaelieth 05-04-07, 06:40 PM	Black and tanned guinness. Do you know what the black and tans were? And why would you mix stout/ale/beer anyway? (Though diesel is quite decent for getting smashed)
MarkusTay63 05-04-07, 11:01 PM	Because it tastes good that way, and unless you've an iron stomach, most Yanks can't abide a 1/2 dozen Guiness in thar belly. ;) However, I will drink as many Long Island IcedTeas as you give me, and might even remain standing for awhile. Those are to my neck of the woods what Guiness is to you guys. It may not be beer, but it'll get the job done right quick. :pint: @Phil - Well Met. :D Judging by your locale, I'd say you don't mind a wee bit of Whisky on occasion as well. I've got a few friends down yonder, and thats all they drink.
Philalexandros 05-05-07, 01:59 AM	Markus, I'm here by reason of work. Assuming nothing goes wrong, my next locale (for the next 3 years or so) should be Italy, just next to Venice. Thus, sad to say, I have no real affinity for whiskey (see below). I'm more of a beer conneissuer (that's a polite way of saying the hard stuff kicks me in the junk, hard*) and I appreciate wine enough as well (though this is due to the influence of my sister, the sommelier-in-training. :D * Though, oddly enough, I've never been averse to Long Islands--get out of my cranium!
The Ubbergeek 05-05-07, 10:08 AM	Bah! Guiness is an overrated bitter ink masquarated as a beer! Gives me a belgian gueuze lambic anytime instead!
Prince Indirian 05-05-07, 10:19 AM	Ubeergeek, you are the king of High "what" ?
MarkusTay63 05-05-07, 11:05 AM	I'm more of a beer conneissuer (that's a polite way of saying the hard stuff kicks me in the junk, hard*) and I appreciate wine enough as well (though this is due to the influence of my sister, the sommelier-in-training.I hear you. Although I will drink Whisky to defend my 'northern honor' (;)), the stuff makes me gag. Wine is tastey, but I always get a headache the next morning. When it comes to beer, a nice Pilsner Urquel from Cheq goes down oh-so-nice. I know most of you northern-European's are not fond of America's fanaticism with pilsners, but if you have to drink Camel-pi$$ at least make it the best and the original. Being a homebrewer, I like all beers, and feel every one has a right time and place to be served. I haven't made any in awhile though, an come to think of it haven't consumed any alcohol in probably a year. To bring this back on topic (sort of), one of the strangest wines served in the realms is Undermountain Alurlyath, brewed by the Dark Elves of Skullport. Although it's never clearly pointed out in source who brews it, the ceramic jugs it comes in are stamped "Best of the Temple" in Elvish, suggesting the followers of Eilistraee of the Promenade. Whats an even more interesting mystery is the fact that the words are in Elvish, which makes perfect sense in 3e, but not in 2e back when Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue was printed. Who are these mysterious subterranean Elves, if not Drow? Perhaps there IS a strain of Rockseer Elves in FR after all?
Philalexandros 05-05-07, 11:11 AM	pam-pam-PAAAAAAAAM! (my impression of the dramatic music played when something amazing is revealed)
GothicDan 05-05-07, 04:14 PM	Alcohol is gross, mm'kay? Also, Guiness is, in general, the 'beer of choice' of my fraternity. They also really love using them to make Car Bombs.
Philalexandros 05-05-07, 04:28 PM	Dan, your above post earned the famous John Belushi/"Animal House" thousand-yard-stare. http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/John-Belushi---College-Poster-C12044867.jpeg Damn you for not letting me post images, Wizards Site!
GothicDan 05-05-07, 04:32 PM	The funny thing is, my fraternity is about as far from the Animal House depiction as you're likely to find. ;) "The Geek Fraternity" is what I call it. Also, I didn't find that movie that funny. Then again, I didn't pay much attention to it.
Philalexandros 05-05-07, 04:38 PM	It has its moments, but it's definitely a movie that has to be watched in a certain atmosphere. For example, I can't watch Clint Eastwood movies (especially the Man With No Name westerns) on days other than Sunday (or Saturday afternoons with terrible weather), and I can't watch "Titanic" without having someone gouge out my eyes.
GothicDan 05-05-07, 05:16 PM	We went and saw Titantic as a class field trip in 7th grade. The only part I remember is me and my best friend cackling madly when the guy went CLINK! off the railing.
Zanan 05-05-07, 05:24 PM	And here was me thinking they were still talking dark elves ...
GothicDan 05-05-07, 05:26 PM	Pfft. *Waves Zanan's point away.* We got done with that long ago. Now we're all being friendly again!
Philalexandros 05-05-07, 05:43 PM	We went and saw Titantic as a class field trip in 7th grade. The only part I remember is me and my best friend cackling madly when the guy went CLINK! off the railing. Are you talking about the guy that dives off the stern and impacts against the engine screws? It's as if James Cameron *knew* he owed us, by that point.
GothicDan 05-05-07, 06:02 PM	That's the part! And I mean, geez, Leonardo DiCaprio isn't even cute enough to have made the whole thing worth it. I feel so cheated. Of life.
Philalexandros 05-05-07, 06:32 PM	Kate Winslet's not all that, either. There was plenty of pain in that movie for most orientations. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-05-07, 06:41 PM	-The Dark Elves before the Decent liked Beer. Then, then got drunk, happen to light a fire, and... -And, ha, ha! I have a beer right now! Don't know why, but I decided like last night to spend my night drinking it, eating waffle pretzels, and watching the last couple of episodes of the Gundam DVD that I just ordered...
GothicDan 05-05-07, 08:26 PM	Gundam's for gays!
MarkusTay63 05-05-07, 09:08 PM	Seeing Kate Winslet nakit wasn't the highlight of my life, but I enjoyed it none the less. Seeing Leonardo DiCaprio sink LIKE A STONE... PRICELESS!!! It could only have been better if his fingers broke off when she pried them off her raft. :D -The Dark Elves before the Decent liked Beer. Then, then got drunk, happen to light a fire, and...I had to re-read what you typed to understand your meaning. At first i though you meant they drank TONS of beer (and maybe downed a few burritos) and got all gassy afterwards, and.. ya know... cave gas... "Don't light a match" :mage: and all that. I think it was actually funnier that way, but your way was more relevent to the topic. ;) Gundam's for gays!:rofl: I am SO glad YOU said it, if I had said it, it would have been politically incorrect. :tie: The only nerd-thing I DON'T like is giant robots. The last time a good Marvel conversation at my LGS turned to transformers I walked right out. :yuck: I guess everyone has a line they won't cross, even me. :rolleyes:
GothicDan 05-05-07, 09:21 PM	I actually LOVE Transformers. There's just very few animes I enjoy. :)
MarkusTay63 05-05-07, 09:27 PM	You just like giant robots because of their oversized 'equipment'. :D
GothicDan 05-05-07, 09:37 PM	That was terrible. Even if I though Hot Rod was somehow kind of hot when I was little. I still can't fathom why. The attitude, maybe?
MarkusTay63 05-05-07, 09:50 PM	Okay, before this gets shut down... Did you happen to like that guy sex-bot from the movie AI? I thought he made the whole movie! What a trip. :D
Lord Karsus 05-05-07, 09:58 PM	Gundam's for gays! A) Who asked you? B) Your opinion on this matter is irrelevant C) <Enter your own witty retort here> D) You are still a poopy-head The only nerd-thing I DON'T like is giant robots. The last time a good Marvel conversation at my LGS turned to transformers I walked right out. :yuck: I guess everyone has a line they won't cross, even me. :rolleyes: -See, I can multitask. I can juggle Marvel and Gundam and the same time, and not cross them, ruining them both. -Speaking of Marvel, some pretty crazy stuff is going on... -Gabriel Summers/Vulcan killed Emperor D'Ken...
GothicDan 05-05-07, 10:01 PM	Is Gabriel hot like his brothers? I think the name Gabriel is hot itself.. *Ignores LK's comments in favor of hot superheroes.*
MarkusTay63 05-06-07, 12:48 AM	Hey! ya never answered my question! Did you see AI?
GothicDan 05-06-07, 01:32 AM	Erm, uh, no!
Stigger 05-06-07, 02:45 AM	I absolutely despised AI, despite Jude Law's outstanding performance... it was a needlessly cruel movie with little in the way of redemptive qualities, at least as far as I'm concerned.
Khaelieth 05-06-07, 08:44 AM	*Whacks all with the Khae-stick* Stay on topic! My mod senses are tingling all over!
Stigger 05-06-07, 01:44 PM	That was on topic... it was showing how a movie could have the same reactions to it as the dark elves do, its all a matter of perspective and opinion. :teach: Okay, so that was really reaching, but still... :D
MarkusTay63 05-06-07, 02:34 PM	And that kid/robot in the movie was just like the Sharn/Miyeritar, because he... ummmm... was really old at the end, and 'came back', and... ummmm... stuff. ;) I actually liked the movie a lot, being a huge fan of REAL robot tales, like Asimov's classic series. That film could have easily been set in Asimov's 'near future', just before earthers stopped using bots altogether. Robots should never, ever be 'giant' or turn into anything else, and should never need little humans inside driving them; Pure Drivel... :yuck: That was Jude Law? He easily made the whole movie for me. And if you want cruel and sensless, try Tarabithia... :rolleyes: I actually had the b_lls to return my bootleg copy to the 'guy in the alley' because it was so nauseating (and not because of the copy quality, although I did blame it on that).
Suin Bahhar 05-06-07, 03:09 PM	Ahh! A real On Topic question again from the OP. ^^ Did the dark elves corrupt the art of the bladesong in any way during the 6000 years of demonworship. El'teal practitioners would be very usefull in countering the strategies of the Aryvandaar (who would have extensively used bladesingers and duskblades in their armies themselves). Or would the dark elves remain traditional and never change the bladesong, the only truly elven mix of magic and swordplay.
Philalexandros 05-06-07, 03:26 PM	Only real reference I've seen to the subject is the description of the Bladesinger Kit in the 2E Complete Elves' Handbook. There, it stated the Drow have their own traditions separate from the Bladesong. Would the Ilythiiri have practiced the Bladesong? I think so. It probably first became changed/"corrupted" during their "fall" and prior to the Descent.
Khaelieth 05-06-07, 03:32 PM	I don't see why they would need corrupting it? You've got Ba'queshel or something, they might still have bladesingers.
GothicDan 05-06-07, 03:47 PM	I would rather represent them with Duskblades.
BrennonGoldeye 05-06-07, 05:02 PM	Some took a patron and became Judicators.;)
MarkusTay63 05-07-07, 01:13 AM	They have a martial art called 'The way of the Darksong' ;) Or at least they will, shortly... :plotting:
Zanan 05-07-07, 03:00 AM	Did the dark elves corrupt the art of the bladesong in any way during the 6000 years of demonworship. Which demonworship? To them, Lolth never was a demon. It is not even sure "how long" Lolth actually remained a demon when being cast down. Given that - unless my knowledge deceives me - when the dark elves of Faerūn started to worship her, she was deity again (or rather never noted as being something else). The bladesong does not belong to one or another subrace of elves. It is in essence a fighting style with blade and magic perfected by elves (to which the drow technically still belong). El'teal practitioners would be very usefull in countering the strategies of the Aryvandaar (who would have extensively used bladesingers and duskblades in their armies themselves). Or would the dark elves remain traditional and never change the bladesong, the only truly elven mix of magic and swordplay. When they fought Aryvandaar, the Ilythiiri had most likely as much bladesong practitioners as the suns. At least, there is no reason to suggest otherwise. It might be another matter with the drow though.
Lord Karsus 05-07-07, 08:42 AM	Which demonworship? To them, Lolth never was a demon. It is not even sure "how long" Lolth actually remained a demon when being cast down. Given that - unless my knowledge deceives me - when the dark elves of Faerūn started to worship her, she was deity again (or rather never noted as being something else). -Well, she was still a Demon when she first schemed of "stealing" the Dark Elves of Faerūn. I was always under the impression that all of the worship passed her way turned her into a deity again. So, it is a possibility that some of the earlier worshippers were worshipping Lolth the Demon, while the later ones were worshipping Lolth the deity. That's just speculation on my part, though. The bladesong does not belong to one or another subrace of elves. It is in essence a fighting style with blade and magic perfected by elves (to which the drow technically still belong). -Well, it was "developed" by the Moon Elves, so if anyone had reason to claim soverignty over it (but, by now, it's public domain), it would be them.
The_Shaman 05-07-07, 10:41 AM	I was under the impression that the dark elves valued specialization in a field rather than wider range of study. If the bladesong is a fighting style merging fencing and magic (as I think) it might be that they use elements in their casting and fighting styles instead of simply adapting the old style. Of course, there are many drow societies, and some might use a form of bladesong adapted for the underground battlefields with their relative lack of open spaces, different terrain, and their own methods of stealth and warfare.
Zanan 05-07-07, 11:05 AM	-Well, she was still a Demon when she first schemed of "stealing" the Dark Elves of Faerūn. I was always under the impression that all of the worship passed her way turned her into a deity again. So, it is a possibility that some of the earlier worshippers were worshipping Lolth the Demon, while the later ones were worshipping Lolth the deity. That's just speculation on my part, though. She was, according to Lost Empires, cast down 'round about - 30,000 D.R. and became the "demon-goddes Lolth" shortly after. It also says that by -18,000 D.R., the Ilythiiri started to turn to dark deities such as Lolth. To me that reads that she had reclaimed godhood within the Abyss by then. Do note that "Lolth in the Abyss" has taken many different worlds int oher Demonwebs there, as is described within the Fiendish Codex I. Would use this only as an example though, as much of what is written there and The Drow of the Underdark has a distinct Greyhawk-taint in it. Which is not bad, but can be quite misleading for the FR.
GothicDan 05-07-07, 11:09 AM	And using such information means you have to accept Lolth as a multispheric deity, which means the old planar setup. I still call her both a demon and a goddess, myself.
Stigger 05-07-07, 12:44 PM	She was whatever the DM says she was...
Zanan 05-07-07, 01:00 PM	And using such information means you have to accept Lolth as a multispheric deity, ... No-one has to "have to". There's enough room left to extrapolate the FR Lolth from the core one. They actually specifically say that The Silence is still ongoing with regards to the usage of that book, i.e. TDotUD. Which is a bit of a downer, of course, about 2 years after the last WotSQ novel. ... which means the old planar setup. Never noticed that the planar set-up has changed for the Core deities? :cool:
Lord Karsus 05-07-07, 02:49 PM	She was, according to Lost Empires, cast down 'round about - 30,000 D.R. and became the "demon-goddes Lolth" shortly after. It also says that by -18,000 D.R., the Ilythiiri started to turn to dark deities such as Lolth. To me that reads that she had reclaimed godhood within the Abyss by then. Do note that "Lolth in the Abyss" has taken many different worlds int oher Demonwebs there, as is described within the Fiendish Codex I. Would use this only as an example though, as much of what is written there and The Drow of the Underdark has a distinct Greyhawk-taint in it. Which is not bad, but can be quite misleading for the FR. -Lolth first learned of Toril in DR -24,400, when Haeshkarr assaulted Sharlarion, but was defeated. At this point, she was still a Demon, as Evermeet: Island of Elves mentions this a few times. That still gives Lolth about 5,000 years to start collecting worshippers from Realmspace, and other places, to become a deity again, before the Ilythiiri wholly turned to her. At this point, I guess it is up to the individual person to decide when she "passed the mark" and went from Tanar'ri to Deity.
Zanan 05-08-07, 06:50 AM	-Lolth first learned of Toril in DR -24,400, when Haeshkarr assaulted Sharlarion, but was defeated. At this point, she was still a Demon, as Evermeet: Island of Elves mentions this a few times. That still gives Lolth about 5,000 years to start collecting worshippers from Realmspace, and other places, to become a deity again, before the Ilythiiri wholly turned to her. At this point, I guess it is up to the individual person to decide when she "passed the mark" and went from Tanar'ri to Deity. Good point. Obviously, as has also been pointed at in WotSQ, times runs differently in the Abyss anyway. Not that I am that much concerned. She was a deity in the beginning and is one now, her true form being that of a drow female. The rest are minute but unimportant details.