Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drizztrocks 05-28-07, 07:22 PM	okay, yes i am fanatical about drizzt and his gang {i have all the books}. but if you read any of the books how are you not? He's the superman of fantasy, pure good in a world of evil and injustice. Expert ranger and warrior, renagade drow, you know the deal. So, i decided to put him in my campain. But he's becoming a big roll, and im afraid im using him to much. my pcs don't mind, there used to it, but to be fair, who would complain about drizzt on your side!:duel:
Zandilar 05-28-07, 07:41 PM	Heya, okay, yes i am fanatical about drizzt and his gang {i have all the books}. but if you read any of the books how are you not? He's the superman of fantasy, pure good in a world of evil and injustice. Expert ranger and warrior, renagade drow, you know the deal. So, i decided to put him in my campain. But he's becoming a big roll, and im afraid im using him to much. my pcs don't mind, there used to it, but to be fair, who would complain about drizzt on your side!:duel: I'd be very careful. Your players don't come over to your house to listen to the Amazing Adventures of Drizzt Do'Urden. They come over to play the Amazing Adventures of their PCs. You need to make sure they're not becoming tired of it. BTW: I have read several Drizzt books, and I am not a fan. I don't hate him - but I really don't see what people see in him.
Shiftkitty 05-28-07, 08:17 PM	I might have a problem, because, at my players' behest (i.e., through the party's endless meddling) Gromph Baenre has just become a major player. I've only just started reading the Dark Elf Trilogy and War of the Spider Queen, so I'm not sure how the two might react to one another, but I tend to play Gromph as a hardliner. (I'm basing my interpretation of him off of what info I can find. I like the guy!) We're not using Drizz't except as a mention in passing. Our version of "Grumpy" won't mention him by name. My players, who have never heard of Drizz't except to see him mentioned as a character in some novels, have no clue why. But the frustrating part is that because of the creativity of myt players, I'm having to make up a lot of backstory on the fly. This isn't easy when most of what I have to work from comes from the Menzoberranzan box set. The rest is articles here and there and what I'm putting together about his personality from how far I've gotten in the books. Would Gromph complain about Drizz't? Not as long as he had a use for him. I don't know if Drizz't would be so generous... The rest of the party wouldn't mind, though. We'd just hope that Drizz't wouldn't be too worried about Greygar's familiar, a skunk named Chanel. (Never mind how this lovely group came to run into each other, suffice to say that Gromph has never seen a skunk in his life and maybe due for a big suprise...)
Karsus the Mad 05-28-07, 08:18 PM	I agree with Zan. Cameo appearances, dispensers of wisdom, a friendly (or not so friendly) push (kick, blast, etc) in the right direction occassionally is ok I think, but if your PC's are used to it, that's almost a sure sign Drizzt is showing up too much. Afterall, if he's spending all that time at your house, who's going to fight all the evils? Who's going to singlehandedly and illogically slaughter tens of thousands of orcs? I have all the books as well, but not a big fan.
Alurvelve 05-28-07, 08:20 PM	I am a huge Drizzt fan as well and have statted up all of Salvatore's charcters in my own image on another thread that is buried somewhere here. If you use Drizzt and any of his companions in your campaign make sure that he is not stealing the spot light from your PC's. The main thing is that the PC's are the main hero's of the campaign and not the guest apperance.
Drizztrocks 05-28-07, 08:31 PM	I might have a problem, because, at my players' behest (i.e., through the party's endless meddling) Gromph Baenre has just become a major player. I've only just started reading the Dark Elf Trilogy and War of the Spider Queen, so I'm not sure how the two might react to one another, but I tend to play Gromph as a hardliner. (I'm basing my interpretation of him off of what info I can find. I like the guy!) We're not using Drizz't except as a mention in passing. Our version of "Grumpy" won't mention him by name. My players, who have never heard of Drizz't except to see him mentioned as a character in some novels, have no clue why. But the frustrating part is that because of the creativity of myt players, I'm having to make up a lot of backstory on the fly. This isn't easy when most of what I have to work from comes from the Menzoberranzan box set. The rest is articles here and there and what I'm putting together about his personality from how far I've gotten in the books. Would Gromph complain about Drizz't? Not as long as he had a use for him. I don't know if Drizz't would be so generous... The rest of the party wouldn't mind, though. We'd just hope that Drizz't wouldn't be too worried about Greygar's familiar, a skunk named Chanel. (Never mind how this lovely group came to run into each other, suffice to say that Gromph has never seen a skunk in his life and maybe due for a big suprise...) Well, from what ive read about gromph hes more a curious drow than an evil one, wondering about magic and if the ways of his people are correct. But unlike drizzt who descides to run away, gromph just lets his thoughts stay in his dreams, while he deals with trouble the way any wizard would: shooting magic missile at it. I don't think gromph would react too badly to drizzt, but wont openly betray his people like drizzt. Theres a lower chance of gromph turning drizzt in to baenre then any other drow, but he still might. You could try it, but thats two strong personalities colliding. Good luck.:D
Drizztrocks 05-28-07, 08:32 PM	I am a huge Drizzt fan as well and have statted up all of Salvatore's charcters in my own image on another thread that is buried somewhere here. If you use Drizzt and any of his companions in your campaign make sure that he is not stealing the spot light from your PC's. The main thing is that the PC's are the main hero's of the campaign and not the guest apperance. thx:)
Grandmaster_Kane 05-28-07, 08:45 PM	Well the problem with most drizzt fans putting him in a campaign is that drizzt is a epic charater. I knw in the FRC it says that drizzt isnt be we all knw that bob doesnt right exactly parralell with the setting. If you are going by the books then drizzt is at least a 22nd level character and should be treated as such.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 09:21 PM	First: there's almost no way to judge a non-spellcaster's level other than roughly in a novel. (Richard Baker himself agreed with this, and I think any author at least vaguely acquainted with the rules would agree.) Drizzt at level 18 is fine for what he does. There's absolutely nothing that he does in the books that couldn't statistically occur given his stats, afaik. That being said, I'm in the same boat with Zandilar and KtM. In fact, I actually considered (from the little I've read) Zaknafein to be a more interesting and realistic literary character to come from the Drow.
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 09:41 PM	-Oh, dear. A new Drizzt thread has reared it's ugly head. Well, from what ive read about gromph hes more a curious drow than an evil one, wondering about magic and if the ways of his people are correct. -Gromph Baenre is quite evil.
souldnce9 05-29-07, 01:03 AM	I personally would be annoyed by the Drizzit stealing my spot light. However in my current campaign we are in Mithral Hall and are likely to meet him. I'm going to give him the I don't trust drow attitude! Although King Bruenor(sp?) is amazing and I like him! I'll be glad to see him while I'm there. It would be fine if Drizzt is in the background killing something while your players are being the hero somewhere else. I play in a group where we take turns DMing different campaigns. We are all ruthless dm's! I have personally lost a couple characters. One to a gargantuan scorpion (that was epic). The other to a Hell Cat (That was sad :weep: ). However, I wouldn't trade these experiences in for anything. I hate it when dm's bring in a hero to help us out, or changes how many hp we lost so that we don't die. If you like your character there is reincarnation or ressurection (in fact my current character was the one killed by the HellCat, our druid did reincarnation and my random role for race landed back on Human, wasn't that lucky?). Oh and by the way Gromph is the biggest Priestess Butt Kisser ever! If he were smart he would of sided with that Lich! He would give Drizzt up in a heart beat! Just so he could gain further favor with his B**ch sisters! Down with Lolth!!!! Crush Menzobarwhatever!!! :smirk: Dan and Karsus why don't you use your Elven High Magic to collapse the cavern above that dreadful city? I have also read all the books and was a fan, but I grew tired of him, or not so much him but Salvatore.
GothicDan 05-29-07, 01:06 AM	Dan and Karsus why don't you use your Elven High Magic to collapse the cavern above that dreadful city? Done. I'll even call in my allied Priests of Darahl Firecloak - demigod of Earth and Fire magic. He even has some secret Drow worshippers. *Rubs hands together, cackles a little bit as he envisions earthquakes and lava flows inundating Menzo..*
souldnce9 05-29-07, 01:18 AM	I can see the latest Novel. "Volcano" The vile city of Drow is under attack once again, but from whom? Where is Lolth? Getting her a$$ kicked by Selune and Eilistraee, while Mask hides in the sidelines waiting to steal her portfolios. :evillaugh *sigh* That would be great!:cloud9:
zerodeviere 05-29-07, 01:21 AM	I to am a fan of the Drizzt novels ... but Gromph .. if he decided to would take Drizzt easily and there is one thing I don't like about how Drizzt is portrayed.. He is always doing the " poor me " thing about how people react to him being a drow and how they judge him based on that but when people wanna get to know more about him he gets offended and he also attacks things like Orcs on sight and especially Giants. does he ever just sit and watch them and judge them the way he wants to be judged? no in that way he is a hypocrite. not sure I spelled that right. =-)
zerodeviere 05-29-07, 01:37 AM	would also like to add that I think its wrong to still have drizzt as 2 levels higher for being a dark elf when he lost most of the abilities that go along with it like the spell resistance and ability to levitate. with darkness and faerie fire he is now about the same as an elf that has resistances/ or immunities to sleep. And its nice that the drow in Cormanthyr have daylight adaption when he still doesn't after all the years on the surface.
souldnce9 05-29-07, 01:42 AM	Somebody just hit the nail on the head!!! Good job zero! The Drizzit is a whiney hypocritical murdering Drow, who only thinks he is a good guy! You should allow your players to outshine this Drow in a battle Drizztrocks. Maybe by having them save him somehow, or helping him do something that he can't pull off. Then your players won't feel like he is just there as some kind of Guardian Angel. Of course I don't know if that is how you are using him in your campaign, but just in case. ;)
PallysFTWBaby 05-29-07, 11:53 AM	If you absolutely must have Drizzt in your campaign, I would do it with as little hype as possible. Drizzt is one of the most overhyped fantasy characters in my opinion, and his hype has inspired many RPGers to create characters that are blatant clones of Drizzt. This is especially prevalent in MMO's where you can log on and see dozens of players with names like Driztdourden, Darkdrizztx, etc. Drizzt Clone Syndrome can cause players to abandon their own creativity and jump on the Drizzt bandwagon. For the safety of your players' originality, I would put Drizzt in only if he seemed like just another adventurer, not the superhero as the fantasy media has portrayed him.
ShadezofDis 05-29-07, 01:07 PM	I to am a fan of the Drizzt novels ... but Gromph .. if he decided to would take Drizzt easily and there is one thing I don't like about how Drizzt is portrayed.. He is always doing the " poor me " thing about how people react to him being a drow and how they judge him based on that but when people wanna get to know more about him he gets offended and he also attacks things like Orcs on sight and especially Giants. does he ever just sit and watch them and judge them the way he wants to be judged? no in that way he is a hypocrite. not sure I spelled that right. =-) Actually there's a short out there about Drizzt meeting a goblin and finding out the goblin is relatively good and helping the poor bugger out. Otherwise, such facets of a story don't really interest too many so they either; don't appear or are edited out
zerodeviere 05-29-07, 02:09 PM	I read that one too but really does the one act make him morally justified. He may encounter the rare individual but he expects them to show they are not evil before he gives them any ground to stand on. he acts like all the other people do to him prove it and i will not kill you. The same thing he complains about when done to him.
ShadezofDis 05-29-07, 02:33 PM	I read that one too but really does the one act make him morally justified. He may encounter the rare individual but he expects them to show they are not evil before he gives them any ground to stand on. he acts like all the other people do to him prove it and i will not kill you. The same thing he complains about when done to him. Nope, but given that we've read about 1/100th of Drizzt's life we can't really judge in any accurate sense. Further, I don't really see a whole lot of "boohoo, I'm not accepted", yes there is some but it hasn't really been a theme for several books now. Next, in almost all those cases the creatures in question were trying to kill him first, self defense doesn't make someone evil or a hypocrite.
Lord Karsus 05-29-07, 04:40 PM	Actually there's a short out there about Drizzt meeting a goblin and finding out the goblin is relatively good and helping the poor bugger out. -Realms of Valor, I believe.
ShadezofDis 05-29-07, 04:47 PM	-Realms of Valor, I believe. I think so, it's been AGES. Heh, in fact, I only read the novels that might shed some light on specific area's I want to use in my game, otherwise. . . well. .. I guess I have to rock the adage "If you can't say something nice...." ;)
Renvale999 05-29-07, 06:42 PM	-Oh, dear. A new Drizzt thread has reared it's ugly head. -Gromph Baenre is quite evil. But Gromph is also quite restrained...he's hasn't kept his position of power by just being powerful, he knows when and where to strike and when to lay off. He's cold and caculating...I'm not sure what his stats say as far as alignment goes, but in my book he's definitely a neutral evil in a chaotic evil enviroment. From the novels I've read, he definitely not your "average" drow, and by "average" drow he is extremely restrained compared to his other kindred. He'll murder anyone who gets in his way...but on his terms, when and where he chooses and someone or no one else will take the fall. He reminds me more a Red Wizard then your typical powerful drow wizard.
Karsus the Mad 05-29-07, 07:06 PM	-Oh, dear. A new Drizzt thread has reared it's ugly head. LK, I love you, but you're bloody lucky I don't take a flight to NY, simply to smack the living snot out of you, you obnoxious prick. Otherwise, You stated exactly as I would have...Karsus knows himself:D
cmas3117 05-29-07, 09:44 PM	okay, yes i am fanatical about drizzt and his gang {i have all the books}. but if you read any of the books how are you not? He's the superman of fantasy, pure good in a world of evil and injustice. Expert ranger and warrior, renagade drow, you know the deal. So, i decided to put him in my campain. But he's becoming a big roll, and im afraid im using him to much. my pcs don't mind, there used to it, but to be fair, who would complain about drizzt on your side!:duel: Prominent characters from the game or literature appear in my game only briefly and rarely, no matter how appealing they are as a character, they're someone else's character and as such I have strong feelings about mucking with their characters even slightly. Characters like that appear to add flavor to things and occasionally as advisers and mentors, but not as party members or direct allies. cmas
Lord Karsus 05-29-07, 11:48 PM	But Gromph is also quite restrained...he's hasn't kept his position of power by just being powerful, he knows when and where to strike and when to lay off. He's cold and caculating...I'm not sure what his stats say as far as alignment goes, but in my book he's definitely a neutral evil in a chaotic evil enviroment. From the novels I've read, he definitely not your "average" drow, and by "average" drow he is extremely restrained compared to his other kindred. He'll murder anyone who gets in his way...but on his terms, when and where he chooses and someone or no one else will take the fall. -No doubt. All of that is true. That kind of elaborates on the "Gromph Baenre is quite evil" angle. :cool: LK, I love you, but you're bloody lucky I don't take a flight to NY, simply to smack the living snot out of you, you obnoxious prick. Otherwise, You stated exactly as I would have...Karsus knows himself:D -Bring it, punk. -Eh, anyway, I was just expressing what was on everyone's mind. :D
Shiftkitty 05-30-07, 01:07 AM	Prominent characters from the game or literature appear in my game only briefly and rarely, no matter how appealing they are as a character, they're someone else's character and as such I have strong feelings about mucking with their characters even slightly. Characters like that appear to add flavor to things and occasionally as advisers and mentors, but not as party members or direct allies. cmas Whereas I have no qualms about hijacking characters out of novels or even figures from history. I write historical fiction as a hobby and am working on something I call "Dungeons & Dragoons", a way out there fantasy take on the American Revolution. At last count, Ethan Allen and the Green Mountain Boys had just encountered their first Displacer Beast... I see DMing as something akin to writing, and authors steal shamelessly from each other. Scarlett O'Hara was boosted to continue the story started in "Gone With the Wind", and Sir Arthun Conan Doyle's estate will provide rules and guidelines for any writer who'd like to pen a Sherlock Holmes story. (To be submitted to them for apporval of course. Holmes is regarded as a national treasure, I believe.) I tend to lift elements from Washington Irving and Jane Austen, then mix in some early Clive Barker and the preprequisite dash of Tolkein. (Jane Austen is in there for the nobility.) To each his own, I say. If I sat at your table, I wouldn't bring in a boosted character, and if you sat at mine, out of courtesy you might find them as flavor. But being the good hostess, I wouldn't force them on you.
zerodeviere 05-30-07, 01:24 PM	Shadez i didnt mean it as a boohoo thing just that it hurts him to not be accepted on sight. The Riders of Nesme.. trying to enter Silverymoon .. the wizards of Longsaddle (of course they accepted him as non evil but then he hated being asked questions about his race, He should be teaching the elves the drow sign language so they might gain an advantage at a later time) even when the elves showed him respect and let him pass by he felt slighted. He wasn't accepted by King Bruenor at first either. but when he sees orc tracks or giant tracks he follows them and attacks and kills them. he doesnt say hello my name is Drizzt are you good or evil he just goes with what he thinks is normal for that race like orcs = Evil and wipes them out. He doesn't realize that other are just doing the same when they seem him and that it isn't personal. but again maybe that is one of the things that R.A. is slowly trying to make him realize.... or maybe he just doesn't realize it.
Shiftkitty 05-30-07, 03:25 PM	Not too get too deep into the race-relations thing, but is it possible that Salvatore is drawing parallels from the real-world? Drizzt stereotypes others, but anguishes when others stereotype him. I see it as similar to Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton screaming racism at every turn, but claiming innocence when they use phrases like "Hymie Town" to describe New York or make snide remarks that insinuate that all Greeks are gay.
ShadezofDis 05-30-07, 04:11 PM	Eh, I'm not sure that zero's timeline would be accurate, I haven't read the books in ages though. But I think the intent of the short by RAS was to show when Drizzt realized he was painting others with the same brush he was painted with. Since that story I can't really think of a time when Drizzt attacked without provocation, but then again I haven't read the stories in a good, long time. I don't really think RAS is trying to draw parallels like that though Shift, doesn't really seem like his style, he generally hits you over the head with the moral. ;)
Alurvelve 05-30-07, 04:18 PM	I don't want to get too deep into a debate or flame war or anything else for that matter, but who is to say that Drizzt does not study the Orcs or Giants first before he slaughters them. Case in point the ocrs of the last trilogy are all there bringing WAR to the land. Biggrin the Giant he and Wulfgar kill along with his kin, they do so because they fuond dead dwarves and the trail led back to the giants. In each case where he goes to killthe so called evil races he has had just cause. As for his crying and complaining poor me about not being accepted he hasnt done that for the better part of the last 2 maybe 3 trilogys. Even then so what if he is a hyporcrite, so are mostof us and any person. Exspecially in a rgp. How many of your good alinged players stops and asks if the prson thier about tofight isgood or not? Usually see orc/wizrd/dragon/goblin/giant kil said creature.
Shiftkitty 05-30-07, 09:03 PM	That's what I like about a good ol' rip-roaring fantasy. The bad guys are the bad guys, the good guys are the good guys, and green furry things from Alpha Centauri are green furry things from Alpha Centauri. (25 points to anyone who can identify where I got the Alpha Centauri thing from...) Still, it's fun to throw a moral quandary in now and then just to keep your players thinking. (I just noticed my avatar is a green, kinda furry thing, but that's not it.)
souldnce9 05-30-07, 09:29 PM	Actually I have a character that would out shine Drizzt any day in the "good" department. Upon first encounter she will (unless evil undead or Outsider), first attempt not to fight. Second, if pressed, she will attempt to subdue. Finally if those options both failed and it means her life or the life of any of her companions then she will kill as a last resort. When the enemy is down she will check to see if they are truly dead, and if they are not then she will stablize them, and then take them to the authorities. It is quite fun playing an exalted character. I use the rules in the Book of Exalted Deeds for converting evil beings to good. Oh and she is a Drow, Priestess of Eilistraee. Fun background story too. As an infant her father took her from the underdark to escape Drow society, and so she was raised by Human farmers. She is completely naive when it comes to how horrible the Drow can really be, and so she is baffled by the reactions she gets from humans and elves when she is traveling. She was discovered by the clerigy of Eilistraee, and she has a moon elf ranger from Cormanthor as a lover. My favorite character actually. :D
Shiftkitty 05-30-07, 10:19 PM	Okay, that's one of my favorite characters, too. Great backstory! One of my players asked (of Gromph, who has decided not to annihilate them just yet) if there are any drow bards. I couldn't think of anything I'd read anywhere, so I answered (in full character voice) "The drow have nothing to sing about." Do the drow have anything to sing about? Especially the males? I'm sure the priestsses can find plenty to sing about (or to make the males sing about under penalty of death...) Egad. I just imagined three female drow as judges on American Idol. "That was terrible. Flay him alive, and make it entertaining."
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 12:17 AM	One of my players asked (of Gromph, who has decided not to annihilate them just yet) if there are any drow bards. I couldn't think of anything I'd read anywhere, so I answered (in full character voice) "The drow have nothing to sing about." Do the drow have anything to sing about? Especially the males? I'm sure the priestsses can find plenty to sing about (or to make the males sing about under penalty of death...) -There are Drow Bards. Hallistra, The Lady Pentient is/was a Drow Bard. The practice is called Baelshques, or something like that.
Shiftkitty 05-31-07, 12:53 AM	Hmm... thank you very much! Now I have an excuse to give them a little more help during their (now mandatory) stay in Menzoberranzan. Of course, I need a hasty drow bard. What does he have to sing about? A) He's not attached to a noble house, and B) he doesn't have a girlfriend slapping him around. Or maybe I'll just let the party try to entertain their way out of their latest mess... although it's looking pretty grim. Their only saving grace is that so far nobody else knows Gromph is holding them captive, which may or may not be a good thing.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 03:51 AM	Actually a male bard should be a lot easier to figure out. The Baelshques seemed to be a woman thing. But Drow aren't a boring race, evil yes, but boring never. I would imagine that male Drow would pick up music, as a slave, to entertain the females. Though he better be good or else. :D
Shiftkitty 05-31-07, 10:03 AM	Hence, back to "Mezoberranyr Idol": "That was terrible. Flay him alive, and make it entertaining."
ShadezofDis 05-31-07, 10:59 AM	That's what I like about a good ol' rip-roaring fantasy. The bad guys are the bad guys, the good guys are the good guys, and green furry things from Alpha Centauri are green furry things from Alpha Centauri. (25 points to anyone who can identify where I got the Alpha Centauri thing from...) Douglas Adams ftw! Still, it's fun to throw a moral quandary in now and then just to keep your players thinking. I'm a big fan of the moral quandary, I play that card pretty constantly when dealing with more political situations.
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 11:39 AM	-It's called Bae'qeshel, by the way. I looked it up. I'm a big fan of the moral quandary, I play that card pretty constantly when dealing with more political situations. -Whenever I do that, my players fail...:(
ShadezofDis 05-31-07, 12:11 PM	-Whenever I do that, my players fail...:( :rofl: I hear that, that's why I've changed the nature of my moral quandaries. Instead of being an immediate problem what the players sow will eventually come back to them (unless they move, then it might not :)) Like in my next game, the players will have to decide if they are going to try to track down a kobold raiding party or take out a kobold nest. The most "good" thing the PCs could do is hunt down the kobold raiders because they're going to be killing some farmers, which will allow the baron in the region next door to send in some of his troops, who are poised on the boarder. . . I should mention that the particular baron has been suppling the humanoids weaponry, so he's well aware of the situation, to kill the kobolds and likely the rest of the farmers, making it look like the kobolds did it and then claiming that they were "barely able to hold them off and several escaped" to justify a continued military presence. . . Well, basically, if they let the farmers die then they'll either; Have to help the elven nobility of the region they are in keep sovereignty. or Deal with a tyrannical baron who's main goal is to bring slavery back to Turmish (and the power of the nobility, because those upstart merchants shouldn't be able to say word one to the nobility) Phew, of course the Baron, even if successful in this particular gambit, really opened a can of worms by arming the gnoll tribes further in the mountains, eventually they'll be calling in one of the lieutenants of Yeenoghu to posses their chief. Which will anger the Flind druid of Malar and the Flind chief. . . But yeah. . . Drizzt n stuff...
Crust 05-31-07, 12:54 PM	okay, yes i am fanatical about drizzt and his gang {i have all the books}. but if you read any of the books how are you not? He's the superman of fantasy, pure good in a world of evil and injustice. Expert ranger and warrior, renagade drow, you know the deal. So, i decided to put him in my campain. But he's becoming a big roll, and im afraid im using him to much. my pcs don't mind, there used to it, but to be fair, who would complain about drizzt on your side!:duel: I think it's cool you're using Drizzt. If he's stealing the show, and if you and/or your players don't like that, maybe scale him back a bit. Have Dove appear and drag him away. Have Innovindil swoop down on her pegasus and snatch him for a more pressing matter. There's nothing wrong with having a powerful NPC on your side, so long as the players and the DM are happy. Ride it out and see what happens.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 03:19 PM	Thanks LK.
Shiftkitty 05-31-07, 03:31 PM	I have one request of my players when they want to boost a character; play them as close to the original as possible, if possible. Even famous people have regular friends, so I see no reason to ban them.
souldnce9 05-31-07, 03:49 PM	I wouldn't mind having Drizzt directly involved in my campaign as long as I'm the same level as he or higher.
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 04:44 PM	Thanks LK. -No problem.
faellamos 06-03-07, 11:22 AM	damn i hate drizzt with the fire of a thousand exploding suns! he's like superman, such a goody two shoes to the point where u wanna just punch him. he's so damn GOOD that he has no flaws and no imperfections- and as a result he's completely one dimensional. i read all the early books simply because i liked hearing about what Matron Baenre was up to, along with the rest of the Drow. To conclude, i hope WOTC kills him off at the end of the new trilogy theyre doing (if ive heard right) about Obould. Drizzt writhing in pain at the end of Obould's whopping big sword while Cattie Brie looks on in horror: as if that ending wouldnt rule!
XHereticX 06-03-07, 11:26 AM	okay, yes i am fanatical about drizzt and his gang {i have all the books}. but if you read any of the books how are you not? He's the superman of fantasy, pure good in a world of evil and injustice. Expert ranger and warrior, renagade drow, you know the deal. So, i decided to put him in my campain. But he's becoming a big roll, and im afraid im using him to much. my pcs don't mind, there used to it, but to be fair, who would complain about drizzt on your side!:duel: A lot of people, lots and lots of them:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: And plz try to keep ur campaign original, its more interesting that way.
ShadezofDis 06-03-07, 11:51 AM	And plz try to keep ur campaign original, its more interesting that way. From one Hand to another, just let me say, it's typically bad form to insult, even in implication, what someone else does for fun. Because, honestly, we make up stories about imaginary little green men. We've got no "high horse" to condescend from.
ShadezofDis 06-03-07, 11:52 AM	he's so damn GOOD that he has no flaws and no imperfections- and as a result he's completely one dimensional. He does have at least one major flaw. He's a drama queen. :D
XHereticX 06-03-07, 11:57 AM	From one Hand to another, just let me say, it's typically bad form to insult, even in implication, what someone else does for fun. Because, honestly, we make up stories about imaginary little green men. We've got no "high horse" to condescend from. Oh, I never intended it to sound like that and if it did I offer my deepest and most sincere apologies. But what I mean is that when people rip campaign seeds directly from the pages of a book it causes numerous problems that degrade both the books and the campaign(ex. The whole problem with the chosen thing and drizzt as well). It is always a better idea to create your own kind of story using Drizzt and other novel characters as an interesting background to enrichen the setting of one's campaign. Personally, I have never liked Drizzt much. I have always found him to be overemotional and confusing at parts. I did however, like many of the Drizzt books and many other characters such as Jaraxle, Entreti, and that wizard dude on the ship whose name I can't remember at the time but starts with a R, are pretty cool.
captaincarot 06-03-07, 01:02 PM	and that wizard dude on the ship whose name I can't remember at the time but starts with a R, are pretty cool. that would be Robillard then! personally i don't use anyone from the books other than as sources of information or as colour to add to the campaign. for example my dwarf, wilgar pwent is a 3rd cousin of thibbldorf, but he finds him a bit embarrasing so he left mithril hall to get away from thibbledorf legacy. and while on a journey to the spirit soaring he met the boulder shoulder brothers and liked ivans helmet, so he made his own. now it's driving him mad that the mage's familiar spends half his time sat on his antlers sleeping. it all adds a bit of flavour, but nothing central to the campaign.
souldnce9 06-03-07, 05:07 PM	I'm not much of a Drizzt fan myself, but WOW, such animosity.
Lord Karsus 06-03-07, 06:51 PM	-George H. W. Bush, Jr. has the same effect on people.
XHereticX 06-03-07, 07:14 PM	-George H. W. Bush, Jr. has the same effect on people. Arghhhh Bush...."quickly loses temper and goes on a rampage:P
Karsus the Mad 06-03-07, 07:18 PM	-George H. W. Bush, Jr. has the same effect on people. Who:confused:
souldnce9 06-03-07, 07:28 PM	If you don't know, then do yourself a favor and don't bother trying to figure it out. You'll only give yourself a stomach ache.
Shiftkitty 06-03-07, 09:43 PM	I didn't think Junior shared the same middle names with his old man. In fact, he doesn't. The old man was George Herbert Walker Bush, while the kid is just George Walker Bush. Technically, he's not even a 'junior' since the name doesn't match exactly. Sorry to get all geeky! I'm reading the Dark Elf Trilogy right now, and I'm kind of enjoying it. I can sympathize with Drizzt on more than a few points. (Not that I come from a culture where murder and betrayal are the accepted norm, but I've been the black sheep of the family to an extreme degree since I was a kid, and the feeling that you're growing up in utter madness and trying desperately to hold onto what you believe is right is something I can really relate to.) I don't consider myself a Drizzt "fan", but I do like the character so far.
Lord Karsus 06-03-07, 11:32 PM	I didn't think Junior shared the same middle names with his old man. In fact, he doesn't. The old man was George Herbert Walker Bush, while the kid is just George Walker Bush. Technically, he's not even a 'junior' since the name doesn't match exactly. -You are correct- there is no 'H' in his name. Sorry. Who:confused: If you don't know, then do yourself a favor and don't bother trying to figure it out. You'll only give yourself a stomach ache. -I think he might have been being ironic, or something like that. Arghhhh Bush...."quickly loses temper and goes on a rampage:P -See.
ShadezofDis 06-03-07, 11:57 PM	Oh, I never intended it to sound like that and if it did I offer my deepest and most sincere apologies. Cool. If I read to much into it then I apologise as well. :) But what I mean is that when people rip campaign seeds directly from the pages of a book it causes numerous problems that degrade both the books and the campaign(ex. The whole problem with the chosen thing and drizzt as well). It is always a better idea to create your own kind of story using Drizzt and other novel characters as an interesting background to enrichen the setting of one's campaign. Fair enough. Though I can imagine some good games being ran in the midst of another groups adventure (ie. some book). Like running a few flanking manuevers on the orcs in thousand blades (or swords, or whatever) or holding off the Trolls in that other one. I read them but the names escape me right this second. ;) Regardless, you must take the events with a "relaxed" look. In other words, be ready to change how the book happened if what the PCs do changes the events of the day. And you must have a DM who doesn't mind that you guys ran away from the third troll encounter and Mithril Hall actually did fall (because if the PCs don't save the day the day shouldn't be saved :D). So the warning is definitely a fair one. :) Personally, I have never liked Drizzt much. I have always found him to be overemotional and confusing at parts. I did however, like many of the Drizzt books and many other characters such as Jaraxle, Entreti, and that wizard dude on the ship whose name I can't remember at the time but starts with a R, are pretty cool. I like him. I especially like his writings on friendship and what not because I can see a decent amount of what he talks about reflected in some of my personal friendships. But I find several other characters, and, to be honest, authors, much better. :)
Soltares 06-04-07, 04:15 AM	The big problem with Drizzt and Gang is that they don't have a freaking Cleric. Losers. They should have been TPK'd back in the Crystal Shard. A D&D party should be a bit more D&Dish, IMO. Cleric-type (some sort of healer or support-caster or buffer). Wizard-type (arcane caster, blower-up-of-things). Rogue-type (skillmonkey). Fighter-type (hacky McHack). Not, human fighter, dwarf fighter, dark elf fighter, other human fighter. It's like if Picard sent down an away team of Ryker, Ryker, Ryker and Ryker. Kinda repetitive. I've met R.A. Salvatore (I think he actually lives in the area, I saw him at the local comic book shop, many years back). He seems like a nice guy, and while I could criticize some of his writing choices all day long, I'm sure as heck not on the Best Seller list, so my opinion is worth exactly bupkiss, apparently. :)
Realms Walker 06-04-07, 06:53 AM	I started reading about Drizzt around 1990. My Best friend and I used to hang on his every action and strangely enough just before we discovered the Drizzt Novels etc my Best friend made a Dark Elf because I had just bought a copy of Unearthed Arcana (The original) so this made Drizzt and his exploits that much more interesting to us. Problem is 17 or so years later Drizzt has gone from a Loved character to just a rather played out idea. He has been in some of the most absurd situations and always manages to pull a trick out of his hat. Luck is one thing but he and his companions have just mined teh bottom of the barrel too many times for my mind to write off as Creative license. Couple that with all the little fanboys and Girls out there who have there Good dark elf characters running around the surface of Faerun AND the damage that WoTC has done to dark elves(changing Lore that made them special) and you will get a idea as to why I hate drizzt and the companions of the Hall. Mind you I cant stand most of the long running Novel characters for the very same reasons mentioned above so it isnt just limited to Drizzt and his circle. And on the second part of your post I dont use major characters in my games for reasons other then just them being overplayed. PC's are supposed to be the spotlight of your games. They need to be the ones to save the day, Figure out the puzzle etc.
Zevox 06-04-07, 03:28 PM	A D&D party should be a bit more D&Dish, IMO. Cleric-type (some sort of healer or support-caster or buffer). Wizard-type (arcane caster, blower-up-of-things). Rogue-type (skillmonkey). Fighter-type (hacky McHack). Not, human fighter, dwarf fighter, dark elf fighter, other human fighter. It's like if Picard sent down an away team of Ryker, Ryker, Ryker and Ryker. Kinda repetitive. See, thats actually one of the things I like about the group. When I read fantasy novels, I don't want to feel like I'm reading someone's stereotypical D&D campaign. I don't want the heroes to look like they're specifically made to be balanced around the D&D rules. That just makes me feel like I'm watching someone else's game, which is dull to me (probably part of why I'm not enjoying the first Year of Rogue Dragons book much right now - that lot looks like they're right out of someone's campaign). I want to read about a living, breathing world, with interesting characters drawn together by their friendship (or other similar personal motivations), not a game where circumstance and convenience of class combinations is the reason the group is together. Incidentally, Drizzt's group is actually a Drow Ranger, Human Barbarian, Dwarf Fighter, Human Ranger, and Halfling Rogue. Zevox
GothicDan 06-04-07, 03:32 PM	Maybe one of the reasons I never liked the group much was that there was basically no magic involved...
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 04:43 PM	Maybe one of the reasons I never liked the group much was that there was basically no magic involved... -At least there weren't any Italian-Avariel Bladesingers who hated being Avariel.
GothicDan 06-04-07, 04:51 PM	One of those rare wild elven avariels.. that lived in the woods like savages...
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 05:00 PM	-...Yep...:rolleyes:
souldnce9 06-04-07, 10:06 PM	Zevox I totally agree with you! We had a guy join our group once, and the first thing he asked was, "What is the group lacking." We totally refused to tell him. In fact we insisted on him chosing that which he would enjoy most. I also agree with Realms Walker. Although I have a good Drow character, but she doesn't go anywhere without her Hat o' disguise. My dm wouldn't hesitate to send a troup of guards after me. I have to be careful. Also my background isn't the good conscience drow trying to escape her evil society.
Soltares 06-05-07, 01:05 AM	Zevox I totally agree with you! We had a guy join our group once, and the first thing he asked was, "What is the group lacking." We totally refused to tell him. In fact we insisted on him chosing that which he would enjoy most. So, confronted with a player who was considerate, tried to be helpful and make the game more fun for *everyone,* you instead insisted that he be selfish and not play well with others? Wow. Way to promote the whole cooperative 'everybody wins' aspect of role-playing games.
Shiftkitty 06-05-07, 01:22 AM	Our drow situation has gone into a collapse of drow society, a handful of drow who want to rebuild it and are only begrudgingly accepting help from the party. The noble houses are still standing, but their hold on power is flimsy. The commoners, especially the males and the cross-breeds, want to build something new. The nobles want to re-secure their positions. They still control, through conditioning, tradition, and outright intimidation, their own armies, assassins, etc. Gromph has no desire to see his noble status fall for any reason, but he'd give his right eye for a chance to slap the preistesses silly. His thoughts are to reinforce the noble houses with the mages in control and the priestesses reduced in power. And of course, guess who'd be the High Wizard? The party has to figure out which way they want to go. The commoners are offering the best hope for some serious social reform, although they have no solid plan for what they want to build. The party fears that old hatreds would die hard, that there'd be something like the aftermath of the French Revolution, or that the place would fall into total anarchy. The noble houses, although offering the greatest stability and an established form of government, are also most likely to execute severe reprisals against the rebels and turn up the pressure on anyone who's left, thus making a bad situation worse. If they back Gromph, they fear that he might advance in power and become an even bigger threat to the surface world than the occassional skirmish with the drow. To complicate things, they know that Gromph knows that they know Gromph's ambitions in this arena. Will he let them live if they don't back him? He's promised them great rewards if they'll 'donate' their talents. If they don't... "Your souls will beg for the tender mercies of the Darkest One..." Player remarks: "The people of this city should be free!" (FTR with a death wish) "Who, or what is the Darkest One?" (CLR interested in learning new stuff regardless of risk) "We'd better think this one over carefully." (RGR who hasn't stayed alive this long by just jumping into things) "What kind of reward?"(ROG with an over-inflated opinion of his skills) "GROMPH! Old buddy, ol' pal,..." (WIZ who hasn't stayed alive this long by picking his fights haphazardly) I'm hoping they'll back Gromph, not just because I like playing him, but because it offers the most potential variety. They've never actually worked for anybody but themselves, and I've got Gromph with his obsidian fingers in everybody's operation throughout the Underdark and up into the surface world and beyond. He's been hoping for an opportunity like this for a long time, and just before the party arrived in Menzoberranzan, he'd tossed a random (and uncharacteristic) prayer to any god that would listen for something to help him get his plan moving. He has no idea what god or goddess answered his prayer, but he's promised a sacrifice to that deity as soon as he finds out (as he casts his eye to the priestesses' school, knowing just where to go shopping for sacrifices...)
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 08:24 AM	So, confronted with a player who was considerate, tried to be helpful and make the game more fun for *everyone,* you instead insisted that he be selfish and not play well with others? Wow. Way to promote the whole cooperative 'everybody wins' aspect of role-playing games. -Soul did the right thing. The player simply wanted to make up a character that "filled in the gaps" of that particular party. That's called metagaming, or whatever. What are the odds that, when the party needs a Cleric, a Clerics just happens to come along and join? Sure, it's possible, but... -And anyway, going on what Soul provided, there were no hurt feelings.
GothicDan 06-05-07, 12:27 PM	So, confronted with a player who was considerate, tried to be helpful and make the game more fun for *everyone,* you instead insisted that he be selfish and not play well with others? Wow. Way to promote the whole cooperative 'everybody wins' aspect of role-playing games. I've gotta agree with LK, here. One of the first rules of actual roleplaying is, "No metagaming." And everyone wins provided they're having fun and roleplaying well, in my opinion. I would fudge some dice rolls for my players, in fact, for making such a mature decision.
Shiftkitty 06-05-07, 03:03 PM	Is it metagaming if the role-playing part hasn't started yet?
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 03:16 PM	-Sure, why not? Protometagaming.
ShadezofDis 06-05-07, 03:34 PM	Is it metagaming if the role-playing part hasn't started yet? To an extent and it also gives a dirty "We need X, Y and Z in order to adventure" feel (note: I find it dirty, others may like that) But then I don't run published adventures, I run whatever the party is doing, be it dungeon crawls, creating business, trying to become nobility, or whatever. Sometimes it does create difficulties and it's not something that can really be "policed" but I try to limit such things in my games. Of course, since the party I'm running is 7 strong it's kind of a moot point. ;) Oh, and please note, I have no problem with other people doing this sort of thing, it's just not my bad. :)
souldnce9 06-05-07, 05:28 PM	Praise the glorious Sun Elves for defending the mild human. Our group is definately a role playing group and not a hack and slash group, so the idea of making a character just so the player can "fill in the gaps" is rather boring for our group as well.
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 05:38 PM	Praise the glorious Sun Elves for defending the mild human. -Indeed. You Humans aren't as worthless as you look, and sometimes carry on some good conversations.
souldnce9 06-05-07, 05:48 PM	Thank you LK, I appreciate the compliment. After all I consider myself a little above and beyond the average human. :D
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 06:00 PM	-Yes, you might become one of those Shadow...things, one day.
souldnce9 06-05-07, 06:57 PM	A Shade? I certainly hope so.
Zevox 06-05-07, 08:31 PM	-Indeed. You Humans aren't as worthless as you look, and sometimes carry on some good conversations. I should hope you would think a little more of us than that, given you were born one ;) . Zevox
XHereticX 06-05-07, 09:14 PM	The big problem with Drizzt and Gang is that they don't have a freaking Cleric. Losers. They should have been TPK'd back in the Crystal Shard. A D&D party should be a bit more D&Dish, IMO. Cleric-type (some sort of healer or support-caster or buffer). Wizard-type (arcane caster, blower-up-of-things). Rogue-type (skillmonkey). Fighter-type (hacky McHack). Not, human fighter, dwarf fighter, dark elf fighter, other human fighter. It's like if Picard sent down an away team of Ryker, Ryker, Ryker and Ryker. Kinda repetitive. I've met R.A. Salvatore (I think he actually lives in the area, I saw him at the local comic book shop, many years back). He seems like a nice guy, and while I could criticize some of his writing choices all day long, I'm sure as heck not on the Best Seller list, so my opinion is worth exactly bupkiss, apparently. :) My D&D party dosen't have a cleric either and we complain about it a lot too. Drizzt should give Cadderly a call.
souldnce9 06-06-07, 02:13 AM	You and your Clerics! :nonono: Who needs clerics? The trick is not to get hurt! DUH!:rolleye2: He who runs away and lives, lives to run away another day! :D I don't have to run faster then the dragon! I just have to run faster than you! :rofl: A good hide skill is better than a high AC!
Shiftkitty 06-06-07, 10:24 AM	Clerics are good for turning undead things, too. If you have a powerful enough cleric and a fairly powerful ghost came at you, could you bring him back to life and thereby make him capable of being hit by normal weapons?
Leukrythus 06-06-07, 10:45 AM	You and your Clerics! Who needs clerics? The trick is not to get hurt! DUH! He who runs away and lives, lives to run away another day! I don't have to run faster then the dragon! I just have to run faster than you! A good hide skill is better than a high AC! Not needing a Priest or Arcane caster is helped by the fact that the author of the books has an interest in keeping their uber-powerful fighters alive. It would suck as a player to be part of a group that had little to no spell casting ability, if the DM sought to really challenge the group. Clerics are good for turning undead things, too. If you have a powerful enough cleric and a fairly powerful ghost came at you, could you bring him back to life and thereby make him capable of being hit by normal weapons? Undead are vulnerable to Resurrection, but not Raise Dead or Reincarnation.
ShadezofDis 06-06-07, 10:52 AM	Not needing a Priest or Arcane caster is helped by the fact that the author of the books has an interest in keeping their uber-powerful fighters alive. It would suck as a player to be part of a group that had little to no spell casting ability, if the DM sought to really challenge the group. I think that one of the most important abilities of a DM is to model the adventures after the party. However, just because the party doesn't have such a caster doesn't mean they can't hire one, or buy up scrolls for the rogue (with the UMD skill) to use. Anyhow, I can craft a significant challenge for a party that has no spell casting ability. Heck, I can craft a challenging campaign for such a party.
Soltares 06-06-07, 11:59 AM	Not needing a Priest or Arcane caster is helped by the fact that the author of the books has an interest in keeping their uber-powerful fighters alive. I remember reading Drizz't 2e write-up and thinking, "Wow, a Ranger with the powers of a Thief, Assassin and Fighter! And while it specifically says PC Drow lose their spell-like abilities, he got to keep his! Oh, and the Drow weakness? He got over it, so he's got all the pluses and none of the minuses..." I guess I wouldn't need a Cleric either if I was, yanno, *cheating like crazy.* I'd rather read a story about a balanced group, where everybody can contribute. Dragonlance did a decent job of this. Raistlin didn't always 'save the day,' nor did Sturm or Tanis or Tasslehoff or Goldmoon. Everybody had useful moments where they worked together as a team, which, to my mind, is what sets AD&D apart from solo-play games. Teamwork, cameraderie, team contributions, the whole being stronger than the sum of it's parts. By having everyone else in Drizz'ts group be, 'a fighter, but not nearly as good as Drizz't' it reads less like, 'A&D adventuring party!' and more like, 'Chuck Norris and his hapless sidekicks that spend more time needing to be rescued, botching his attempts at stealth, and getting themselves into trouble than actually contributing.' At a certain point, I'm thinking, 'Why am I reading about Bruenor again? Anything he fights, Drizz't could have killed ten times faster. Bruenor is all grouchy and meanwhile, Drizzt's mom tried to feed him to demons, beat him a bunch, practically enslaved him and when he got sick of it and tried to leave animated his dad as an undead to go kill him! Bruenor needs a warm glass of shut the heck up, he's got no business complaining... Uppity sidekick, take your place!'
GothicDan 06-06-07, 01:42 PM	The reason Dragonlance ran as it did is because it was based on an actual adventuring party in a real campaign. I'm not saying that I dislike it - I love Dragonlance novels, the older ones, at least - but you can't expect most D&D novels to run like that. I don't want to feel like there's a DM writing a novel - certainly not a Realms one, since the Realms were made first and foremost as a novel/story world, and only later as a D&D world. Dragonlance was always for gaming in.
Shiftkitty 06-06-07, 03:05 PM	I think that someting to remember about Drizzt is that he's a character in a novel, not a PC in a campaign. Those guys get special perks.
Philalexandros 06-06-07, 05:05 PM	I remember reading Drizz't 2e write-up and thinking, "Wow, a Ranger with the powers of a Thief, Assassin and Fighter! And while it specifically says PC Drow lose their spell-like abilities, he got to keep his! Oh, and the Drow weakness? He got over it, so he's got all the pluses and none of the minuses..." I guess I wouldn't need a Cleric either if I was, yanno, *cheating like crazy.* Hey, alright, way to basically ignore the fact that he was a LITERARY DEVICE first, and a set of gaming statistics second! :rolleyes: Perhaps you might consider that 1E and 2E D&D was inherently unrealistic in so many ways. E.g., why shouldn't a Drow be able to eventually overcome his/her blindness? Why couldn't a human multiclass? Oh, and also: Drizzt did not have his full complement of Drow powers by the time of Crystal Shard. Losing them--and his Drow gear--was a nice part of the story that I would guess you skipped. ;) I'd rather read a story about a balanced group, where everybody can contribute. Dragonlance did a decent job of this. Raistlin didn't always 'save the day,' nor did Sturm or Tanis or Tasslehoff or Goldmoon. Everybody had useful moments where they worked together as a team, which, to my mind, is what sets AD&D apart from solo-play games. Teamwork, cameraderie, team contributions, the whole being stronger than the sum of it's parts. You mean a contrived group? The heroes of DL were specifically set up to be a generic D&D party with flavor--multi-racial, with the classic mix of classes, and the traditional strengths and weaknesses. Don't get me wrong; I loved Chronicles and Legends and love them still. That doesn't mean that you weren't setting up contrived arguments for both your pros and cons, though. By having everyone else in Drizz'ts group be, 'a fighter, but not nearly as good as Drizz't' it reads less like, 'A&D adventuring party!' and more like, 'Chuck Norris and his hapless sidekicks that spend more time needing to be rescued, botching his attempts at stealth, and getting themselves into trouble than actually contributing.' Maybe you should read for content. Bruenor has never been described as a sidekick, nor have his achievements been pale compared to Drizzt's *except* where the story's climax has to gravitate around the protagonist. Catti-Brie and Wulfgar, by contrast, are decades younger (or centuries, compared to Bruenor) and thus understandably less experienced. DL also featured these aspects--especially in Dragons of Spring Dawning and beyond. Raistlin's growing power--and the way it eclipsed Caramon's once formidable prowess--is a key aspect of that story. Raistlin purposefully hurts and shows up his brother to show him that he is no longer his "little sidekick". Such displays are neither shown nor warranted in the Drizzt books, and for good reason: the Drizzt novels center around beloved friends who don't suffer from this kind of animosity.
GothicDan 06-06-07, 05:10 PM	And oddly enough, I liked the Twins trilogy just as much as Chronicles, in which the standard idea of a core adventuring party, divided properly among class/racial lines, completely went to heck. And in which Raistlin more or less obscured everyone in terms of power.
Soltares 06-06-07, 10:37 PM	Don't get me wrong; I loved Chronicles and Legends and love them still. That doesn't mean that you weren't setting up contrived arguments for both your pros and cons, though. Seriously, using Drizz't as the 'con' in a thread about Drizz't counts as a 'contrived argument?' It's not humanly possible to rebut your logic.
Lord Karsus 06-06-07, 10:39 PM	I should hope you would think a little more of us than that, given you were born one ;) . -I've since transcended and overcame that little problem.
Zandilar 06-07-07, 04:26 AM	Heya, You mean a contrived group? The heroes of DL were specifically set up to be a generic D&D party with flavor--multi-racial, with the classic mix of classes, and the traditional strengths and weaknesses. Oh... Contrived? Drizzt's group is just as contrived. There's a ranger who doesn't use his magical powers, and everyone else is a non-magical class. That means there's no chance the plot will get ruined by a well placed Cure Light Wounds spell... Wait... Drizzt is a ranger, he's supposed to be able to cast that spell... Umm... Lets just forget/overlook the fact that rangers get magic and we'll be okay. :rolleyes: (I don't have anything in particular against Drizzt, I don't like him... I don't hate him either. But to level an accusation of contrivance at the Companions of the Lance seems unfair to me.)
captaincarot 06-07-07, 05:06 AM	I think that one of the most important abilities of a DM is to model the adventures after the party. just like real life would. the task of the dm is to come up with a believable story as far as i'm concerned. if a part doesn't have a cleric and they come upon a crypt full of ghosts, that ain't my problem. its up to them to work out a way to deal with it. or to find some one who can and convince them to help out. there is no way i'm going to remove a whole set of obstacles because a set of players don't have the foresite to balance their party properly. any adventurer with 1/4 of a brain would not form a party which was so limited in the first place. they would form alliances with complementary people in order to maximise their chances of survival in each situation. and in the case of fighters the mage should have the intelligence to convice him that an alliance would be beneficial.
Philalexandros 06-07-07, 06:53 AM	Seriously, using Drizz't as the 'con' in a thread about Drizz't counts as a 'contrived argument?' You're misrepresenting my argument. I'm not at all opposed to you using him as a "con" in your dissertation on why you don't like him or the novels he's in. I'm questioning the seriousness of your arguing points. By the standards you introduced (and if I didn't love the DL Chronicles books too much), should I be fuming over the fact that Raistlin was casting too many spells for a wizard his level at the escape sequence of Autumn Twilight? Or that there is no D&D process for a wizard to get gold skin and hourglass eyes? Or that a CON 10 score couldn't possibly reflect what he's suffering? Or that the magical malady plaguing him isn't statted out? It's not humanly possible to rebut your logic. Sure it is. All I ask is that you argue a little more fairly. I never said you should *like* the Drizzt novels; complaining over the fact that a character in those books doesn't conform to early AD&D norms and practices is kind of silly, though.
Philalexandros 06-07-07, 07:06 AM	Heya, Oh... Contrived? Drizzt's group is just as contrived. There's a ranger who doesn't use his magical powers, and everyone else is a non-magical class. I'm addressing a double standard. I'm not trying to assert that one is better than the other. Having said that, yes, the DL group *was* planned out to be as close to the stereotypical D&D party as possible. Conversely, RAS was just less worried about D&D party dynamics and capabilities. Drizzt was raised a warrior for documented reasons, as was Bruenor (for less detailed reasons, though). Wulfgar was also raised in a militaristic environment, and Catti-Brie grew up around, emulated, and fell in love with, warriors. Their paths make sense for them. Note that Regis, the one individual who is not a warrior, follows a path/vocation that subscribes to his own background. Could they benefit from having a wizard or a cleric in their party? Yes. Absolutely. Have they sought the aid of such individuals in the past? Yes. The bottom line is that all fictional characters in a story are contrived. They are pre-determined individuals with pre-determined virtues and flaws, in a mostly pre-determined storyline. Both parties in this discussion fit this mold automatically. The reasoning behind the DL party's roster, though, had to do with introducing people to gaming in DL, tying the world to a popular set of characters, and thus working along a gaming framework. In that sense, yes: it is more contrived. I'm not arguing the success of one system over the other, though. No one in their right mind would deny that Raistlin and Caramon are excellent characters, or that the dynamic in the romantic triangle of Tanis, Kitiara, and Lauralanthalassa was there (and I could go on). That means there's no chance the plot will get ruined by a well placed Cure Light Wounds spell... Wait... Drizzt is a ranger, he's supposed to be able to cast that spell... Umm... Lets just forget/overlook the fact that rangers get magic and we'll be okay. :rolleyes: Again, all valid complaints if you're concerned about books and stories being tied into the actual game and its rules.
Zandilar 06-07-07, 07:53 AM	Heya, The bottom line is that all fictional characters in a story are contrived. They are pre-determined individuals with pre-determined virtues and flaws, in a mostly pre-determined storyline. Both parties in this discussion fit this mold automatically. The reasoning behind the DL party's roster, though, had to do with introducing people to gaming in DL, tying the world to a popular set of characters, and thus working along a gaming framework. In that sense, yes: it is more contrived. I'm not arguing the success of one system over the other, though. No one in their right mind would deny that Raistlin and Caramon are excellent characters, or that the dynamic in the romantic triangle of Tanis, Kitiara, and Lauralanthalassa was there (and I could go on). As a writer, I agree completely with your opening sentence. Though I usually write by the seat of my pants (ie: without a clearly detailed and written down plan), there are usually some things I've decided about the plot and/or characters before I start writing. Sometimes, I even come up with "contrivance" in the middle of writing if a good idea strikes me. Still, I think Drizzt and gang is just as "contrived" as Tanis and gang. It's silly to try and say one is more contrived than the other - because they're all story characters, and thus, by their natures, are contrived right from the start. Again, all valid complaints if you're concerned about books and stories being tied into the actual game and its rules. Oh, it just irritates me more than anything else. It irritates me because it's just so common for writers to overlook or ignore the "mechanics" of the game world they're writing in (yes, cure light wounds as a ranger spells is a part of the game world, not just game mechanics). It just jars me as a reader, which means I don't enjoy the novel as much as I otherwise would.
Philalexandros 06-07-07, 08:10 AM	Still, I think Drizzt and gang is just as "contrived" as Tanis and gang. It's silly to try and say one is more contrived than the other - because they're all story characters, and thus, by their natures, are contrived right from the start. Eh, we'll just have to agree to disagree. :) Again, I think Weis and Hickman did a terrific job of fleshing out a wonderful cast. Nonetheless, they themselves have stated that the M.O. was to generate a D&D party. RAS created a band of friends whose vocations subscribed to their socio-cultural upbringing and unique situations. Sure, the DL folks went back and put out an entire series of books that showed just how the Companions got together, etc., but this was all hindsight 20/20 IMHO. Oh, it just irritates me more than anything else. It irritates me because it's just so common for writers to overlook or ignore the "mechanics" of the game world they're writing in (yes, cure light wounds as a ranger spells is a part of the game world, not just game mechanics). It just jars me as a reader, which means I don't enjoy the novel as much as I otherwise would. I guess I find it difficult to be jarred by Drizzt's lack of spells... when my first experience with him and his friends featured Bruenor (who has no magical ability whatsoever) creating a +5 hammer that scored double damage dice and returned magically to its specifically keyed wielder. :D But, all the same, game mechanics are so muddled that I find it very easy to shake them off. Up until recently, were there stats to describe the various magic effects Ed described for mythals and such? No, and that is simply the flip side of the coin that RAS does with Drizzt.
ShadezofDis 06-07-07, 10:11 AM	just like real life would. Yep, that's why all the books say "Dungeons and Dragons in Real Life" the task of the dm is to come up with a believable story as far as i'm concerned. if a part doesn't have a cleric and they come upon a crypt full of ghosts, that ain't my problem. its up to them to work out a way to deal with it. or to find some one who can and convince them to help out. Umm. .. so you write adventures independent of the group of PCs you're writing for? That's cool. Personally, I'm done wasting hours and hours of effort coming up with a game that will be impossible for my PCs to get through. If my PCs don't have a healer then I'll "seed" the game a bit with more healing potions and such, making sure the local temple will be willing to heal them (because it kinda sucks to say "alright guys, you're characters are laid up for a couple months right now but don't worry, you've got enough cash for. . . oh. . . for two weeks. . . well. .. ummm. . . you're hurt and homeless and probably going to die of disease. . . ok, roll new characters) or whatever. Anyhow, how do you come up with your stats then? Write them out then hope the PCs make characters that can handle the game? Purely by the CR system? there is no way i'm going to remove a whole set of obstacles because a set of players don't have the foresite to balance their party properly. If no one wants to play a cleric, or a rogue, or a spell caster or whatever then I really don't feel there is a need to force someone to play something they don't want to play. I'm not interested in making sure there's a cleric, if they don't have a cleric then they'll face different difficulties, but it's not an untenable situation. Oh, and PCs should always have the ability to go "well, we've gotten a few rooms into this dungeon and it's crawling with undead. . . .we don't really like undead so we're going home" (unless the entrance is blocked, in which case they'll need to find an exit) However, I run a VERY freeform game. Whatever the PCs would like to do is a-ok with me. any adventurer with 1/4 of a brain would not form a party which was so limited in the first place. they would form alliances with complementary people in order to maximise their chances of survival in each situation. This isn't WoW. and in the case of fighters the mage should have the intelligence to convice him that an alliance would be beneficial. There is no reason why a fighter should be ignorant of the usefulness of a mage. My feelings on the subject are; Let people play what they'd like to (within reason and with the consequences of what they are playing) and tailor the adventure around that. Then everyone can have a good time. Yay.
ShadezofDis 06-07-07, 10:17 AM	Oh, it just irritates me more than anything else. It irritates me because it's just so common for writers to overlook or ignore the "mechanics" of the game world they're writing in (yes, cure light wounds as a ranger spells is a part of the game world, not just game mechanics). It just jars me as a reader, which means I don't enjoy the novel as much as I otherwise would. Eh, Drizzt has never shown any desire to cast a divine spell. Sure he could but with his conditioning (gods are bad, mmkay) and self reliance then I can see why it wouldn't cross his mind to cast a spell. Further, he could be a noncasting ranger varient :p Anyhow, I think Phil and Zandilar's debate really boils down to; DL novels are "artificially" contrived. Drizzt novels are "organically" contrived. Both contrived, as is any story, no matter if it's consciously contrived or subconsciously contrived, but one with the purpose of showing a typical D&D party that happens to be a great story and one with the purpose of being a great story that just happens to end up being a D&D party. Or that's my take anyhow. ;)
ShadezofDis 06-07-07, 10:24 AM	I guess I find it difficult to be jarred by Drizzt's lack of spells... when my first experience with him and his friends featured Bruenor (who has no magical ability whatsoever) creating a +5 hammer that scored double damage dice and returned magically to its specifically keyed wielder. :D Personally, I love the idea Bruenor creating the hammer (and I'm not saying that you don't). I don't recall the scene really well, but I'd have added a few "special ingredients" just to give it a bit more flavor. Though I guess one could look at it as Bruenor sacrificing his smithing to the Dwarven pantheon in exchange for the blessings bestowed upon the hammer. ::shrugs:: I'd have made a couple flash backs about how he got the stuff too. I think that's all because I had a rogue who had a mage create a nifty mask for him, and I got to collect all the ingredients, took . . . 4 or 5 game sessions going from the arctic to the desert to the mountains to the. . . it was a pain. . . it was a hella nifty mask though :)
GothicDan 06-07-07, 12:36 PM	Ah. That was a 1E rule I really liked.
ShadezofDis 06-07-07, 12:37 PM	Ah. That was a 1E rule I really liked. Which one?
GothicDan 06-07-07, 01:36 PM	In 1E, I believe, every dwarf could make a powerful magical item (armor or weapon, I think, or maybe just weapon) once in his life.
ShadezofDis 06-07-07, 01:50 PM	In 1E, I believe, every dwarf could make a powerful magical item (armor or weapon, I think, or maybe just weapon) once in his life. Ah, that's pretty cool, though I would require a "sacrifice" of some sort. .. well, actually I'd have to think about it more but I have a feeling I'd require some sort of "sacrifice" or a gathering of the materials. Hmmmm. . . an interesting concept though. :)
Aegis_Chiron 06-07-07, 01:50 PM	I wish I could remember the source, but I've read various times that the authors write the characters they have in their heads, based on their goals/designs for him. They do not stat out characters before sitting at the typewriter/PC/pen and paper. The job of the game designers is to convert the protagonists and the antagonists into game statistics. Here it is, from both the Heroes and Villians Lorebook: Another note should be made regarding the character herein; these characters are not PCs and are not necessarily described according to the rules in the Players Handbook and DUNGEON MASTER Guide. Some of these NPCs break major game rules left and right; this is simply a result of translating fiction and other nonofficial sources into game information. Every attempt was made to apply the rules of the AD&D game when possible, but some folks in this book (Alias, Elminster, and the Seven Sisters, for instance) just can't be accurately described without throwing some of the rules out the window. I think the designers do a remarkable job overall, though I admit to disagreeing with them on a few minor points. Those are my two cents on the issue...
Uzzy 06-07-07, 02:40 PM	Ah, Alias. Now there's a character you could play a clone of and get away with! Anyway, the NPC's in most of the sourcebooks are meant to be background material, or at most, occasional allies. Sure, it can be fun to fight alongside the likes of Drizzt while defending the Ten Towns or Mithral Hall or whatever, but keep these as a one off. Don't have them around all the time, overshadowing the PC's. It's them your meant to be playing and creating stories with.
ShadezofDis 06-07-07, 03:24 PM	Ah, Alias. Now there's a character you could play a clone of and get away with! That's terrible. But it did make me giggle.
sillaric_culdanin 06-07-07, 03:54 PM	Wow, a thread about Drizzt that hasn't degraded in flung insults... KUDOS! I'm proud to be an FR fan today. As to Drizzt, I was one of many in 90s infatuated with Drizzt and his friends. I even statted out the company and let my group play them (unbalanced as they were) and they had a ball slaying dozens of orcs, giants and dragons. Something to always keep in mind about RAS and his portrayal of Drizzt is that the whole situation is skewed by the fact that Drizzt's concept was that of mentor/sidekick/observer and chronicler to Wulgar (the same concept that created Breunor as well) who was supposed to be the main character. Re-read Crystal Shard and you'll get hints of that. The fans couldn't get enough of an immature dark elf that ran away from home for moral reasons, caused the death of his own father, then had to put his father's animated corspe in the ground again (well into a lake of lava anyway)... the type of moral turmoil this would cause in a human psyche is wild to consider. I call Drizzt immature because age-wise, he is. I don't think Drizzt is even a century old, yet... if he was raised in a faerie-elven settlement, he wouldn't even have been allowed to court a lady yet, much less have spent decades mastery a rather complex form of swordplay. With regard to the OP... do what feels right. I'm guessing you're a fair bit younger than I am (which makes me feel very old to say :() and probably at a different point in your evolution as a DM... or maybe you're 65 and just really dig Drizzt... which I think is wicked-cool too. So have fun! Just remember what the others have said... your job as DM is to run an enjoyable game for your players, if they like it.. YOU WIN! Never forget that.
MarkusTay63 06-07-07, 04:27 PM	In several books, the Drizzt Party received aid from the Harpels, so I would go so far as to suggest that the Harpels are in their 'extended' party. Also, they have gone to Cadderly for help, seeking high-powered devine magical aid. I'm not sure if there was an actual rule in 1e, but as far back as I remember there was always a 'supposition' (house rule?) that a Dwarf, at some point in his life, would create his "Great Work" - a culmination of all his skill and talent poured into a single powerful magical item. In RW mythology, many of these items would be considered 'legacy weapons', or even artifact-class, so it wouldn't be too far a stretch to say that a Dwarven king would be able to produce an artifact, being a shining example of 'all things Dwarven'. Also, although weapons are the most common, a piece of jewelry, such as a crown or necklace, should also be possible, as well as something completely out of the ordinary like a Throne or magic Anvil. This was always in keeping with the more Nordic traditions of Dwarves being artificers of magical items, while still protecting the 1e/2e ruling of Dwarves being incapable of Arcane magic. Its easy to say that it is just a blessing of their gods, and therefore devine in nature. We really need to start a Dwarven Netbook someday. ;)
souldnce9 06-07-07, 04:34 PM	Orc Poo! You smell like Trogdolite! Snotty nosed Roth herder! :P Just thought I'd through a few insults in there! :D I call Drizzt immature because age-wise, he is. I don't think Drizzt is even a century old, yet... if he was raised in a faerie-elven settlement, he wouldn't even have been allowed to court a lady yet, much less have spent decades mastery a rather complex form of swordplay. This is something that has always baffled me. How fast does it take for an elf to mature? When do they go through puberty? When do they go from a little tyke playing on the floor to an adolescent? Around what age do they take their first steps? When do they go from cute to handsom or beautiful? Compared to us humans anyway. Perhaps this is something GD and LK can answer? :confused: Part of my reason for wanting to know is: I have a Drow character who was raised by humans. In my background story for her I stated that she was raised by several generations of the same family, seeing her adopted mother and father die, and their siblings taking their place. (yes she was a little naive when she first started adventuring but has learned many hard lessons).
MarkusTay63 06-07-07, 04:59 PM	Drizzt was born in Menzoberranzan in 1297 DR as the third son to Malice Do'Urden That would make him 78 years old in the current year, 1375 DR. He was originally a little over a hundred, but they have made him somewhat younger in 3e. I was recently thinking about the ageing thing for Elves, and had always just devided by 10 to get an approximation of how old they would be in human years. Unfortunetly, that would make Drizzt only about 8 years old!!! :eek: The way I figure it, they age 1 year for our 2 up until 26 (making them the equvalent of a 13 year old). Then they age 1 year for our 5 for the next forty years, so a 68 (26+40) year old elf would look the same age as a 21 year old human. Drow would continue the one-for-five ratio, so Drizzt would be the equvalent of a 23 year old human, looks-wise. Surface Elves, living longer, would switch to 1 year aging every 10 once they hit 68. So a 400 year old Drow would look about 87, while a 800 year old Elf would look 94 years old. Thats just my own math, but it works out, and I only did it for my own reference. Make of it what you will.
souldnce9 06-07-07, 07:19 PM	It seems to work, but the starting age of an elf is 110 and a human's is 15 so it doesn't quite work. What about if they age 1 year to our 7? That would make drizzt insanely young, only 11, but hey its Drizzt.
Lord Karsus 06-07-07, 07:20 PM	We really need to start a Dwarven Netbook someday. ;) -Delzounblood is already trying to start one, over at the 'Keep.
XHereticX 06-07-07, 08:59 PM	Personally I think that no Realms books I have read even come close to Weis and Hickman's writing but thats just me:)
Keryth 06-08-07, 03:23 PM	Dragonlance was a fun read. chronicles and Legends still are, but the line has run its course. Far too many books dealing with Tanis and Co. As for FR books, well, I used to be a fan of Drizzt and Co. but they've gotten stale too. Still love Icewind Dale and up through the time of torubles novel, but, enough already. Personally, I think Liriel Baenrae is a far more intertesting drow character, even if she is the reason drow can now keep their abilities and equipment on the surface.
XHereticX 06-08-07, 09:01 PM	Dragonlance was a fun read. chronicles and Legends still are, but the line has run its course. Far too many books dealing with Tanis and Co. As for FR books, well, I used to be a fan of Drizzt and Co. but they've gotten stale too. Still love Icewind Dale and up through the time of torubles novel, but, enough already. Personally, I think Liriel Baenrae is a far more intertesting drow character, even if she is the reason drow can now keep their abilities and equipment on the surface. I've only read the first daughter of the drow book and it was decent, and yes, I agree that Lirael is a much more interesting good drow than Drizzt.
Arbourean 06-09-07, 02:14 AM	Shakti even more so.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 12:31 AM	Personally I think that no Realms books I have read even come close to Weis and Hickman's writing but thats just me:)I have NEVER read ANY of them. As a big fan of The Dragonriders of Pern, I do not except cheap imitations. :P I've only read the first daughter of the drow book and it was decent, and yes, I agree that Lirael is a much more interesting good drow than Drizzt.Liriel is a GOOD DROW?! :eek: You do realize that she is solely responsible for the recent proliferation of Drow on the surface, right? If not for her, both Drow and their items would lose power on the surface, which was the MAIN REASON that kept them underground. Every death caused by Drow on the surface is now on HER head, and the blood is on HER hands. She is quite possibly the EVILEST Drow that EVER lived (although not on purpose, but it was do to her own selfishness).
Dark Wizard 06-11-07, 12:38 AM	I have NEVER read ANY of them. As a big fan of The Dragonriders of Pern, I do not except cheap imitations. :P Well, the original two trilogy and many of the immediate spin-offs don't focus on Dragonriders. Killing dragons with the eponymous Dragonlances after some wanderings to find/forge them in the first place, yes; riding dragons, present, but not so much. I suppose that's why the setting is called Dragonlance and not Dragonrider. Kind of a violent name actually. Though I like their logo.
Zandilar 06-11-07, 01:57 AM	Heya, I have NEVER read ANY of them. As a big fan of The Dragonriders of Pern, I do not except cheap imitations. :P Oh Haha. I'm sure Anne McCaffery is really annoyed that Weis and Hickman hi-jacked her concept. :rolleyes: Not. (It's not a good comparison to make, not even in farce.) Liriel is a GOOD DROW?! :eek: You do realize that she is solely responsible for the recent proliferation of Drow on the surface, right? If not for her, both Drow and their items would lose power on the surface, which was the MAIN REASON that kept them underground. Drowcraft items still disintergrate in sunlight. Drizzt's powers functioned on the surface before Liriel did what she did. It's only a theory that she was the one who changed things, not a fact. (If she changed things at all for anyone but herself.) Every death caused by Drow on the surface is now on HER head, and the blood is on HER hands. She is quite possibly the EVILEST Drow that EVER lived (although not on purpose, but it was do to her own selfishness). Okay, now I know you're not being serious. :P Seriously though, I think Liriel started out her journey more CN than CG... But I haven't read the last book in that series, so I can't say how she ended up.
Lord Karsus 06-11-07, 10:07 AM	Seriously though, I think Liriel started out her journey more CN than CG... But I haven't read the last book in that series, so I can't say how she ended up. -She started off Chaotic Neutral, with evil tendencies, and now she's Chaotic Neutral, with good tendencies.
XHereticX 06-11-07, 09:19 PM	Dragonriders of pern was confusing and just pure "wrong". Not good confusing like Dune, just pure weird. Copying works in a great cycle. Weis and Hickman copied Anne McCaffery, then chris Paolini copied weis and Hickman with his Eragon books. seriously though, none of them were really copying since the concept of dragonriders has been around for like ages.
GothicDan 06-11-07, 09:24 PM	I actually can't recall any mythologies of dragonriders. This makes me feel stupid, because I am sure that there should be some, most likely somewhere in Near Eastern writings. Well, maybe not, because dragons seemed to represent more metaphysical, primordial, and transcendental divine figures more than actual entities that mortals could properly interact with, let alone 'ride.' But still, maybe... I'm at a loss. Hm. Well, Moorcock's Melniboneans were famed Dragonlords.
Lord Karsus 06-11-07, 11:13 PM	Well, maybe not, because dragons seemed to represent more metaphysical, primordial, and transcendental divine figures more than actual entities that mortals could properly interact with, let alone 'ride.' -Have you ever seen the History Channel special concerning Dragons, and the nation that they represent the primordial fears of prehistorical Humans across all ethnic lines? If not, I recommend it. It really was fascinating.
GothicDan 06-11-07, 11:35 PM	Well, that's not really fascinating. I mean, it's cool, but not very much a revelation. The Near Eastern cultures - the Cradle of Life - developed mythological evil serpent/dragon figures from the start, and civlization in general spread from that point (at least all Proto-Indo-European/Iranian civilization). It's the same reason why so many pantheon heads are represented by sky/solar/thunder gods, why the ocean tends to be primordial and chaotic, etc.
Zandilar 06-12-07, 04:55 AM	Heya, Copying works in a great cycle. Weis and Hickman copied Anne McCaffery, then chris Paolini copied weis and Hickman with his Eragon books. seriously though, none of them were really copying since the concept of dragonriders has been around for like ages. Now this is just plain wrong (except for the last bit about the concept of dragonriders not being new, which is true). Pern and Krynn couldn't be more different if you tried. I mean the only thing they have in common is that some people ride dragons. That's it. That's their only similarity. Personally, I really loved Pern, though I got a bit tired of it after umpteen books... My favorites were the Harper Hall novels, which weren't really centered about the dragonriders at all. At their heart, the Pern novels are actually Science Fiction, not Fantasy. As for Paolini - I've heard accusations of copying leveled against him before, but usually that he borrowed rather copiously from Star Wars. What is probably the truth is - he was heavily influenced by the Hero's Journey, something that influences most, if not all, fantasy and science fiction to one degree or another. I haven't read his novels, but I can imagine it's (it being Eragon) not as good as people are saying it is (which isn't to say that they don't show potential - my mother liked them well enough). The first was written while he was still 15. Now I'm not a bad writer, but even I cringe at stuff I wrote when I was that young (stuff that was highly praised by my teachers, I might add).
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 10:09 AM	Inspiration and plagiarism are different sides of the same street. Art influences art and almost no one lives in a vacuum. :)
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 10:39 AM	-Very wise, Shadez. I was just about to mention that.
XHereticX 06-12-07, 08:16 PM	Heya, Now this is just plain wrong (except for the last bit about the concept of dragonriders not being new, which is true). Pern and Krynn couldn't be more different if you tried. I mean the only thing they have in common is that some people ride dragons. That's it. That's their only similarity. Personally, I really loved Pern, though I got a bit tired of it after umpteen books... My favorites were the Harper Hall novels, which weren't really centered about the dragonriders at all. At their heart, the Pern novels are actually Science Fiction, not Fantasy. As for Paolini - I've heard accusations of copying leveled against him before, but usually that he borrowed rather copiously from Star Wars. What is probably the truth is - he was heavily influenced by the Hero's Journey, something that influences most, if not all, fantasy and science fiction to one degree or another. I haven't read his novels, but I can imagine it's (it being Eragon) not as good as people are saying it is (which isn't to say that they don't show potential - my mother liked them well enough). The first was written while he was still 15. Now I'm not a bad writer, but even I cringe at stuff I wrote when I was that young (stuff that was highly praised by my teachers, I might add). I am not arguing with you. Writers do though typically draw from the same pool of mythology and knowledge when it comes ot fantasy and sci-fi and I am not suprised to hear writers copying the ideas of others before them. I totally agree Krynn isn't a ripoff of Pern (personally I hated Pern and love DL). Still, there are some pretty blantant ripoffs out there. Just read LoTR, and then read Terry Brooks's Shannara series, wow... And dan, dragonriders aren't just from western mythology, there are lots of great legends about chinese and japanese individuals riding eastern lung.
Shiftkitty 06-13-07, 01:16 AM	Inspiration and plagiarism are different sides of the same street. Art influences art and almost no one lives in a vacuum. You took the words right off of my keyboard. Both Stephen King and Washington Irving, though living more than a century apart, declared in near identical words (although King seemed to be unaware that he was nearly quoting Irving) that authors "steal shamelessly from each other".
Lord Karsus 06-13-07, 05:46 PM	Both Stephen King and Washington Irving, though living more than a century apart, declared in near identical words (although King seemed to be unaware that he was nearly quoting Irving) that authors "steal shamelessly from each other". -Cryptoamnesia.
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 05:53 PM	You took the words right off of my keyboard. I'm sneaky like that. :incog: :rimshot:
XHereticX 06-13-07, 07:32 PM	Inspiration and plagiarism are different sides of the same street. Art influences art and almost no one lives in a vacuum. :) cept me, its actually quite comfterable living in a state of antimatter:D
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 09:37 PM	I know nothing of the Krynn novels, and only know enough about the setting to know what a Kender is. The fact remains that when the setting and novels were first released, every promo for them featured that picture of a Dragon with a rider on its back. That, and the similar sounding planet-names was enough for me. I never had any desire to read them after I saw the promos, and I feel the same way about Eragon. The Menibonean Dragonriders were never really played up in the novels; it was more of a historic fact then anything current. Since they were actually down-played and not made into the 'main attraction' it never bothered me there. As far as Liriel was concerned, I found her actions VERY self-serving throughout the series, and FR Drow items no longer crumble as of 3e.
XHereticX 06-13-07, 09:39 PM	Still, an entire novel series based on weird pseudo-sci-fi/fantasy "dragonriders" fighting falling string seemed a little too weird for me. I could never get the Pern series, one book and I was done.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 09:44 PM	I read the first three, which were good, but had no desire to read the myriad sequals that came later, which I always feel are done for pure profit and not with any sort of artistic integrity. Besides, how many times can you read about a fight between a dragon and some string? They should have just gotten cats... cats LOVE to play with string. :P
XHereticX 06-13-07, 09:52 PM	I read the first three, which were good, but had no desire to read the myriad sequals that came later, which I always feel are done for pure profit and not with any sort of artistic integrity. Besides, how many times can you read about a fight between a dragon and some string? They should have just gotten cats... cats LOVE to play with string. :P String...the next great enemy of humanity...seems pretty depressing.
Zandilar 06-14-07, 02:30 AM	Heya, The fact remains that when the setting and novels were first released, every promo for them featured that picture of a Dragon with a rider on its back. That, and the similar sounding planet-names was enough for me. I never had any desire to read them after I saw the promos, and I feel the same way about Eragon. So your judgement is based on what little you actually read, and on what you saw in advertising? You have to admit, that's not a good place to make a judgement from. (You claim Krynn and Pern sound similar - well not to my ear.) As far as Liriel was concerned, I found her actions VERY self-serving throughout the series, and FR Drow items no longer crumble as of 3e. Uh, only normal drow items. Drowcraft items (from the 3e Underdark source book) still crumble to dust in sunlight. This is what it says about them: Drowcraft weapons were once quite common, but they have fallen out of favor in some drow cities. It goes on to explain that they're created using the special type of radiation particular to the underdark (faerzress) that grants a weapon a +2 luck bonus on top of it's usual enhancement bonus (ie: a +2 Drowcraft Longsword is +4 to hit and damage). The weapon doesn't grant this bonus outside of faerzress areas, and has a chance to crumble to dust in sunlight. So it really is arguable that Liriel did anything at all for any drow other than herself. Oh, and Markus... Didn't you realise that dragons are just cats in disguise? :P (They like sunny warm spots, they love shiney things, and they're mecurial and fickle - just like dragons. ;))
Stigger 06-14-07, 02:55 AM	Ten to one says those really lawful metallic types are going to take great offense at being called mercurial and fickle... wonder what its worth not to mention it to them... :evillaugh
Zandilar 06-14-07, 07:36 AM	Heya, Ten to one says those really lawful metallic types are going to take great offense at being called mercurial and fickle... wonder what its worth not to mention it to them... :evillaugh Yes, but while they might be offended, they are good. I doubt they'll eat me for teasing them. :D Besides which, to ordinary mortals who have short lives, the ways of dragons are not very well understood and may come across as mecurial or fickle or even both!
Drizztrocks 06-14-07, 09:23 AM	LK, I love you, but you're bloody lucky I don't take a flight to NY, simply to smack the living snot out of you, you obnoxious prick. Otherwise, You stated exactly as I would have...Karsus knows himself:D Well said.;)
BrennonGoldeye 06-14-07, 10:32 AM	Well said.;) Try having to listen to it 24/7. It's like living with a houseful of Howie Mandells.;)
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 11:27 AM	Try having to listen to it 24/7. It's like living with a houseful of Howie Mandells.;) It gets even better when spell duals errupt over who leaves the toilet seat up. The renovations really take it's toll on the wallet.
MarkusTay63 06-14-07, 12:28 PM	So your judgement is based on what little you actually read, and on what you saw in advertising? You have to admit, that's not a good place to make a judgement from. (You claim Krynn and Pern sound similar - well not to my ear.)What can I say, the advertising turned me off from the beginning; too flashy. Also, from what few sources I have, it seems there is some sort of field effect surrounding the planet, causing the normal races to behave like IDIOTS! (Kagonesti, Gully Dwarves, Kender, Tinker Gnomes, etc). I actually like the Kender and Tinker Gnomes, and use them, but I can live without the rest. Uh, only normal drow items. Drowcraft items (from the 3e Underdark source book) still crumble to dust in sunlight. It goes on to explain that they're created using the special type of radiation particular to the underdark (faerzress) that grants a weapon a +2 luck bonus on top of it's usual enhancement bonus (ie: a +2 Drowcraft Longsword is +4 to hit and damage). The weapon doesn't grant this bonus outside of faerzress areas, and has a chance to crumble to dust in sunlight.This fits in to what I was getting at; however, I think the book is innacurate. I know that is a bold statement, but let me explain: Toward the end of 2e Drow items were considered psuedo-magical, just like the Netherese items (as per the 2e Monstrous Manual). Psuedo-magical items behave exactly like normal magical items but are cheaper to manufacture and require a power source. In the case of the Netherese the power source was the Mythallars, but for the Drow it was Faezress Radiation. All of that seems to gel well with with the above information you have given. However, the Windwaker's magic, which normally only operates for the user, was augmented at the end of the novels and somehow managed to make Faezress radiation 'tappable' on the surface. The book, being a novel, never got into any game mechanics, but from all appearances Drow now have their powers on the surface do to her, so it would make sense that their items would also function normally (but only in the Realms). This occurred in 1361; Drizzt was using his powers on the surface in 1351, which is a definate problem. Please don't use that as a starting point for an argument - Salvatore is a geat author but his research skills are somewhat lacking. Besides, it might just have been how Mielikki 'tweaked' his Ranger class; instead of granting him spells he is able to use his Drow magic. IG I would say he has a unique set of substitution levels and leave it at that. So it really is arguable that Liriel did anything at all for any drow other than herself.At least we agree that she was out for herself the entire time. Oh, and Markus... Didn't you realise that dragons are just cats in disguise? :P (They like sunny warm spots, they love shiney things, and they're mecurial and fickle - just like dragons. ;))Believe it or not, THIS really got me thinking. Especially with Stigger's add. If Chromatic Dragons are cats, then I suppose Metalic Dragons should be dogs! :eek: Perhaps, way back in primordial times, when the gods were building the worlds, the Dragon God(s) turned Cats and Dogs into the first dragons, and that is the basis for their personalities, as well as their underlying animosity. And just like cats and dogs, they can occasionally get along and don't always follow the stereotypes.
captaincarot 06-14-07, 12:44 PM	I take it that i was wrong when i got the impression that liriels ritual that allowed her weapons and abilities to work on the surface, only affected her then? bah i'm going to have to go and read the durned books again now, what you go and to that for?
Shiftkitty 06-14-07, 02:17 PM	Oh, and Markus... Didn't you realise that dragons are just cats in disguise? (They like sunny warm spots, they love shiney things, and they're mecurial and fickle - just like dragons. ) I had a dragon stomp on my chest this morning and assault me with his "tunabreath" attack...
Stigger 06-14-07, 02:56 PM	Time to call in the dragonslayers then... or maybe a squirt bottle to the face might work. Gotta suggest that to a gullible new player we just got... :evillaugh
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 03:26 PM	I had a dragon stomp on my chest this morning and assault me with his "tunabreath" attack... Just be greatful one didn't try to hump your leg:eek:
souldnce9 06-14-07, 04:35 PM	Cats don't hump legs! That's a filthy dog thing. :pbbbtt: *just imagined a great wyrm trying to hump somebody's leg* :nonono:
Passivearmada 06-14-07, 05:37 PM	I to am a fan of the Drizzt novels ... but Gromph .. if he decided to would take Drizzt easily and there is one thing I don't like about how Drizzt is portrayed.. He is always doing the " poor me " thing about how people react to him being a drow and how they judge him based on that but when people wanna get to know more about him he gets offended and he also attacks things like Orcs on sight and especially Giants. does he ever just sit and watch them and judge them the way he wants to be judged? no in that way he is a hypocrite. not sure I spelled that right. =-) ok. i think that you are wrong, quite frankly. i could be using much worse words on this site right now, but i decide not to.drizzt is not a hypocrite, and in fact he does think of the existence of orcs and giants. i believe that it was in the sient blade that they befriended a giant, but he was posessed by Crenshinibon, and they had to kill him. i think that you are one that judges far too early, for at the beginning of each section of the books, he shares his thoughts. and if you were of a race that everyone's out to kill on sight, i suppose that you would politely ask the charging orcs to leave you alone and find their inner peace, correct? i see your side of the argument, and in a sense, i agree with it. but your side of the argument loses, so what can i say, except sorry?
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 05:45 PM	Cats don't hump legs! That's a filthy dog thing. :pbbbtt: *just imagined a great wyrm trying to hump somebody's leg* :nonono: :teach: If you notice, I didn't say "cat" or "dog". I said "one". Given that the quote I was replying to also didn't specify "cat" or "dog", but instead "dragon", it can easily be deduced that I meant "dragon":teach: Besides, lots of dogs eat tuna and lots of cats hump things :yuck: I had a dragon stomp on my chest this morning and assault me with his "tunabreath" attack... Just be greatful one didn't try to hump your leg
Stigger 06-14-07, 06:04 PM	Didn't need that thought KtM... just didn't...
XHereticX 06-14-07, 06:28 PM	Hey, I live in New York too(upstate though) Don't mess with NY KtM.
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 06:49 PM	Try having to listen to it 24/7. It's like living with a houseful of Howie Mandells.;) -I/We take offense to that. Just be greatful one didn't try to hump your leg:eek: -I told you to get it neutered. What, you didn't listen? i see your side of the argument, and in a sense, i agree with it. but your side of the argument loses, so what can i say, except sorry? -Most of what you said seems to be, to my eyes, a hastily written, incoherent mess, but I like that ending. Hey, I live in New York too(upstate though) Don't mess with NY KtM. -You crazy country folk. ;) -I'm going to Cooperstown next month. I might stop by and deliver your next assignment...
XHereticX 06-14-07, 06:54 PM	I live nowhere close to there, more to the west, Finger Lakes region.
souldnce9 06-14-07, 07:13 PM	Well I've never seen a cat hump a leg. My cats don't, actually my cats don't hump much of anything any more. :heehee Still a dragon humping a leg is rather a disturbing thought, well dragons are a disturbing thought in general. :hides:
Zandilar 06-14-07, 08:45 PM	Heya, What can I say, the advertising turned me off from the beginning; too flashy. Also, from what few sources I have, it seems there is some sort of field effect surrounding the planet, causing the normal races to behave like IDIOTS! (Kagonesti, Gully Dwarves, Kender, Tinker Gnomes, etc). I actually like the Kender and Tinker Gnomes, and use them, but I can live without the rest. I guess I was young and guiliable at the time. ;) Still, the novels weren't bad... But I kind of stopped reading after the trilogy of anthologies... Chronicles, Legends, and Tales. Anything after that is kind of... superfluous IMHO. (Though I did read Dragons of Summer Flame. *sigh*) This fits in to what I was getting at; however, I think the book is innacurate. It's 3e canon, it overwrites 2e canon. An individual DM can rule otherwise, but I kind of agree with SKR's reasoning on this one. It's just plain dumb to have magical items that exist solely for the bad guys and are useless to the PCs (remember that monster gear is counted towards the difficulty of the encounter, and is also part of the reward for the PCs, so giving Drow baddies magical items that turn out to be useless to the PCs (and, lets face it, most PCs are surface dwellers unless you're running an all Drow all the time campaign) is kind of stiffing them on a reward for overcoming an encounter that is more difficult that it otherwise would be). It really doesn't fit well into the 3e way of thinking. At least having Drowcraft is a hat-tip to the old 2e way of doing things, and otherwise fits into your statements about how it all worked (needing to be within the area of radiation to function properly)... The entry even states Drowcraft weapons have fallen out of favor to help explain why they use them less often. This occurred in 1361; Drizzt was using his powers on the surface in 1351, which is a definate problem. Please don't use that as a starting point for an argument - Salvatore is a geat author but his research skills are somewhat lacking. Besides, it might just have been how Mielikki 'tweaked' his Ranger class; instead of granting him spells he is able to use his Drow magic. IG I would say he has a unique set of substitution levels and leave it at that. Ugh. Drizzt is such a clumsy implementation that I sometimes wonder if he's not another one of those "made for elsewhere, then shoved into the Realms" characters/concepts - like the Shadow Weave. IMHO, Ranger Spells are way better than Drow abilities. Drizzt is a fool if he gave up the former for the latter. (Especially concidering he could have had both!) At least we agree that she was out for herself the entire time. Well I haven't read the third novel in the series, but yes... She was mostly quite selfish. Though I think she was slowly learning. She did seem to be making progress from the evil side of netural towards good. Believe it or not, THIS really got me thinking. Especially with Stigger's add. If Chromatic Dragons are cats, then I suppose Metalic Dragons should be dogs! :eek: Perhaps, way back in primordial times, when the gods were building the worlds, the Dragon God(s) turned Cats and Dogs into the first dragons, and that is the basis for their personalities, as well as their underlying animosity. And just like cats and dogs, they can occasionally get along and don't always follow the stereotypes. Bah. No way. Even Lawful Good dragons have more in common with cats than they do with dogs.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 08:58 PM	Bah, most authors rarely follow game rules when writing their novels anyway. Just look at Greenwood with the Simbul, Kemp with Phaeraun fighting Inthracis, an entire Tuigan horde getting slaughtered by a few Rashemi witches in the first daughter of the drow book, etc.
Shiftkitty 06-14-07, 10:30 PM	To clear up my dragon situation, it was a Tabby dragon. The all black Bombay dragon was sleeping in the window sill, and the Beagle dragon and Corgi dragon stay outside because they lift their legs on everything. :)
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 10:53 PM	-The balance between poetic license and game rules is an often hard balance to find.
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 01:55 PM	Ugh. Drizzt is such a clumsy implementation that I sometimes wonder if he's not another one of those "made for elsewhere, then shoved into the Realms" characters/concepts - like the Shadow Weave. IMHO, Ranger Spells are way better than Drow abilities. Drizzt is a fool if he gave up the former for the latter. (Especially concidering he could have had both!)I never said Drizzt was a rocket scientist. :P He probably didn't even make the choice consciously. Character levels are a meta-gaming concept, so he would not even have known that Mielliki was granting him the Drow Abilities in lieu of spells, because he wouldn't even know about 'substitution levels'. ;) Besides, I though that was the most reasonable explanantion I have given for something in a long time. Usually I am WAY out there. :D
XHereticX 06-15-07, 01:58 PM	Personally I've always been in favor of the theory that Drizzt is actually favored by Lolth. Where else would he get his abnormally good luck?
ShadezofDis 06-15-07, 02:00 PM	Besides, I though that was the most reasonable explanantion I have given for something in a long time. Usually I am WAY out there. :D It's true, I'm pretty sure Markus was the one who discovered the Far Realm. :rimshot:
BrennonGoldeye 06-15-07, 08:46 PM	Actually that was discovered by Peter Griffin. :thinks: :rimshot:
XHereticX 06-15-07, 09:04 PM	Actually that was discovered by Peter Griffin. :thinks: :rimshot: No, I'm sure it was Al Gore.:P
Zandilar 06-15-07, 09:28 PM	Heya, I never said Drizzt was a rocket scientist. :P Well if he had 10 wisdom, he couldn't cast spells in any event. But, according to FRCS - Drizzt has 17 wisdom... he also has 17 intelligence. That makes him pretty dang smart! He probably didn't even make the choice consciously. Character levels are a meta-gaming concept, so he would not even have known that Mielliki was granting him the Drow Abilities in lieu of spells, because he wouldn't even know about 'substitution levels'. ;) Besides, I though that was the most reasonable explanantion I have given for something in a long time. Usually I am WAY out there. :D You were right on until you said that Drizzt probably doesn't even know who is allowing him his Drow abilities. I am sure that Drizzt would know if that was true. I don't know how to explain it, other than the touch of a deity has a certain feel - and they make sure you know about it. Remember, there's no doubt about the gods... Even your common average farmer gets sent god-given dream visions from time to time, even if they do need to have a cleric confirm them. I don't buy this in the case of a Ranger, because for Mielikki - Rangers ARE her clergy. (Sure, she has clerics and druids, but she is specifically the goddess of Rangers!)
BrennonGoldeye 06-15-07, 09:40 PM	Tell it my Fey sister!!:w00t: :elf: :w00t:
Zsych 06-15-07, 11:38 PM	Drow abilities are innate things, not the work of Lloth or Meilikki. (though Lloth being a demon-goddess, and I think having had kids with that Illythiri guy may make the source of the Drow's additional abilities... leftover goddess/demonic blood) I don't think that Drizzt has mastered any actual ranger spells. 1-2 level spells, are born more from a character's own faith than a god. With greater spells... at least in novels, I don't recall there being much difference, and Drizzt himself has never noticed a change in the functioning of his drow abilities. Although with them being innate, he may not really even be aware of how they function, beyond knowing how to trigger them, any more than we would know how we use our eyes.
GothicDan 06-16-07, 12:29 AM	I think it's pretty obvious that the Cat vs. Dog alignment question is one of Chaos/Law, not Good/Evil. A number of the feline-related entities are Chaotic. The typical difference is Nobanion, and Lions are so absurdly different from other felines that their tendencies can't be considered even within the same category, as far as alignment would go. Prides are surprisingly similar to wolf packs, with natural (and often violent) plays for social mobility in the hierarchies. The werewolf is the archetypal chaotic canid. But they are also specifically INSANE, rabid and chaotic, perversions of the typical canines that had been been man's best friend and loyal companion for thousands of years already. In other words - Cats = Chaotic Dogs (and Lions) = Lawful ;)
Shiftkitty 06-16-07, 01:29 AM	For that matter, women=chaotic, men=lawful. This based off the line: "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should get used to it." ;)
Krash 06-16-07, 08:00 PM	Bah, most authors rarely follow game rules when writing their novels anyway. Thank the pantheon for that. I don't read the novels on the basis that they are quasi-gaming supplements. The game rules cause enough problems with realmslore as it is. If you base your writing on what can or cannot happen according to the 'rules' you get a multiplicity of problems as those rules change. Elaine Cunningham had just that problem with her Liriel series. -- George Krashos
DrowBattlemind 06-17-07, 10:55 AM	Drizzt's whiny-ness seems to be mostly Fruedian in nature, i.e., "Zexzhual in nay-churr", so it's a good thing that he and Cattie-Brie finally started knocking boots at the end of the latest trilogy. Even Bruenor and Wulfgar looked at each other and declared "about time!" Now that he's 'getting some', as Mithral Hall's chief battlerager would say, maybe he'll lessen the kvetching and whining and moaning (and leave the latter to Cattie-Brie)!
MarkusTay63 06-17-07, 01:02 PM	I don't think the Dark Elves should be a'sleepin' with our wimmen folk!
Shiftkitty 06-17-07, 02:55 PM	^ lol! Sounds like some of my players! The first encounter with one of those rough and tough, big buxom Drow femmes and one player started in with "Black is beautiful, baby!" Using the 2e GUCK he succeeded in getting a good romp out of the deal, but wound up with a bondage fetish and a longing for the dark elf girls. "Once you go black, you never go back!"
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 06:20 PM	-Well, this has the potential to get ugly...
Passivearmada 06-17-07, 09:00 PM	agreed, my lord. :rofl:
Shiftkitty 06-17-07, 09:08 PM	After all the Black is Beautiful jokes we were having at the expense of our drow-smitten PC, one of the players did a quick narration of a scene in Mobile, Alabama in the 1960's where a drow priestess wanders onto a bus and is told to get to the back. "She raised two things that day. One was an eyebrow at this impudent male. The other was her hand-held crossbow with the poison-tipped dart... TWANG!" We had a good laugh. We're not a racially sensitive bunch. My mother was a waitress and used to hear the best "black jokes" from her black customers. The backlash to this is that I sometimes forget to regard the sensitivities of others when a racial joke pops up. I've gotten better at knowing when to hold my tongue, but if the joke is just racial (requiring a particular race to make the joke work) as opposed to racist (mean-sprited racial), I tend to be a little more loose with it. I blame an old friend, Mr. Jones. He was a "portly" (to be polite) black gentleman who we kids just knew was really Santa Claus. Always happy, always laughing with a big ho-ho-ho to boot, he let us go on believing he was St. Nick. My brother, who was 6 at the time, asked him why he turned white on Christmas. To this day I remember him saying that he really was white and it took all year just to get all the soot washed off. He taught us to never let race be an issue. R.I.P., Mr. Jones. I'll always remember you with a smile.
Lord Karsus 06-18-07, 12:21 AM	I blame an old friend, Mr. Jones. He was a "portly" (to be polite) black gentleman who we kids just knew was really Santa Claus. Always happy, always laughing with a big ho-ho-ho to boot, he let us go on believing he was St. Nick. My brother, who was 6 at the time, asked him why he turned white on Christmas. To this day I remember him saying that he really was white and it took all year just to get all the soot washed off. He taught us to never let race be an issue. R.I.P., Mr. Jones. I'll always remember you with a smile. -That was pretty good. The world needs more people like that. :)