Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-14-07, 05:37 PM	I'm currently running a campaign in which Karsus is on the verge of returning and I need any and all the information I can get on him. So if anyone has anything please let me know.
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 05:51 PM	I'm currently running a campaign in which Karsus is on the verge of returning and I need any and all the information I can get on him. So if anyone has anything please let me know. Netheril: Empire of Magic, which is a free download here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads Along with the adventure How the Mighty Are Fallen. The Netheril Trilogy books. The FRCS has a bit, Lost Empires of Faerun. Magic of Faerun. A smattering of his personality can be seen in The Temptation of Elminster novel (as a recording). Lord Karsus and myself can answer pretty much any specific questions also:) If you can find it, an old Dragonquest adventure called The Enchanted Wood would also be nice, as Karsus is first featured in that (before it was ported to FR). I also have done a 3.5 writeup of myself (in various formats) for personal amusement.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-14-07, 06:07 PM	I guess I'm looking for more of a history and possibly some statistics on the famous Mystra assasin. What race was Karsus? I believe he may have been human but I'm not sure where I read that. I know they have some vague information on him in the tome of magic but I need quite a bit more if I'm gonna scare my PC's.
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 06:22 PM	I guess I'm looking for more of a history and possibly some statistics on the famous Mystra assasin. What race was Karsus? I believe he may have been human but I'm not sure where I read that. I know they have some vague information on him in the tome of magic but I need quite a bit more if I'm gonna scare my PC's. It's all in those two free downloads:) How the Mighty Are Fallen is an adventure where you either personally help Karsus, or actively try to thwart him. In Netheril: Empire of Magic, he's a CN Male Human Arcanist 41 (mentalist) with Str 19, Con 19, Dex 13, Int 22, Wis 19, Cha 15. His stats were updated in 2e deities and demi-powers (i think) to be Str 18, Con 19, Dex 15, Int 22, Wis 19, Cha 23 (again, I think). Updating the stats to 3.5 should be easy. +10 from level, +3 Int, Wis, Cha from age (no penalties), ability boosting items and so forth. Prolly some nifty epic magic items as well. You could go the same route as Ioulaum and make him a Wizard 31/ Archmage 5/ Netherese arcanist 5. However, given his obvious (to me at least) innate magical talent (casting spells at age 2!) means some sorcererous levels as well. I'd go Sorcerer/Wizard/ Ultimate magus/ Archmage/ Netherese arcanist. Also, one trait about Karsus was obvious to anyone who met him: he was stark raving mad.
Stigger 06-14-07, 06:26 PM	Always found him a remarkably tragic figure actually... one of the better tales that came out of the Netheril really.
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 06:30 PM	Always found him a remarkably tragic figure actually... one of the better tales that came out of the Netheril really. We're so misunderstood:weep:
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-14-07, 06:49 PM	Alright thats exactly what I wanted to read. Where can I find the netherese arcanist and the ultimate magus classes at? I was also woundering if it would be logical to through some incantifier and anima mage lvls on to him. Also, do you think it would be logical to link Karsus's return with the return of an elven mythal within the high forest?
XHereticX 06-14-07, 06:53 PM	Nethernese arcanist is found in the PGTF. Hmm, personally I think Karsus never died, but is still lurking in some demiplace licking his wounds and preparing to return.
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 07:02 PM	Alright thats exactly what I wanted to read. Where can I find the netherese arcanist and the ultimate magus classes at? I was also woundering if it would be logical to through some incantifier and anima mage lvls on to him. Also, do you think it would be logical to link Karsus's return with the return of an elven mythal within the high forest? Netherese arcanist can be found in the Epic Level section of the Player's Guide to Faerun. Ultimate Magus can be found in Complete Mage. Since I have no idea what incantifier or anima mage is, I can't offer an opinion:) Bring the big K back is...tricky...to say the least. It's not impossible per say, just pretty darned improbable. You see, his soul was shattered into 3 parts. One part is trapped in the giant red butte of his physical body in the Dire Wood region of the High Forest, one part is trapped in a stone golem in a temple on top of the red butte, and the last piece is trapped in the Karsestone, which is Karsus's physical heart. The greater goddess Shar currently has the Karsestone:embarrass Typical resurrection magic wouldn't work I wager, given that not only is his soul shattered, he also isn't technically dead. Neither is he alive. Depending on your gaming style, maybe Shar is intentionally trying to bring him back, seeing in him a potential weapon against Mystra? A lunatic elven archmage inadvertently manages to graft 2/3rd's of Karsus soul to a new form, with the newly awakened 2/3rd Karsus plotting out how to retrieve his missing 1/3rd? Somone DOES manage to ressurect a Karsus, only to find out it's the wrong Karsus? A contingent eidilon of Karsus awakens? A shadow duplicate created via an epic spell utilizing the shadow seed? These are a few ideas I've pondered myself.
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 07:06 PM	Do you intend on your players actually facing Karsus in a battle???
souldnce9 06-14-07, 07:21 PM	If he were brought back could he take out ol' El?
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-14-07, 07:22 PM	The idea is that a group of zhents currently doing business in the pirate isles stumble across the karsestone (recently returned to the material). Which are then compelled by the stone (which has a mind of its own) to find the other two pieces in hope of returning Karsus to life, in return power and wealth is promised. The hard part is getting the PC’s through the aberration cursed dire wood. Then through the temple, getting past any harpers or chosen of mystra, so on and so forth. Maybe they’ll be lucky and strike an alliance with the shades. No I don’t intend on sending my party to they’re deaths against Karsus, but I’m not saying I wont leave the option open.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 07:31 PM	If he were brought back could he take out ol' El? Most certainly. That just got me thinking, maybe el's disappearance in the Elinster's Tower mod coming up has something to do with Karsus... And how do you intend to explain the loss of the Karsestone from Shar's greedy hands?
Cadrio 06-14-07, 07:32 PM	Karsis is my *****
XHereticX 06-14-07, 07:36 PM	Karsis is my ***** Any moment now LK and KtM will show up and blast your poor behind to the far realm. Good luck:P
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-14-07, 07:47 PM	And how do you intend to explain the loss of the Karsestone from Shar's greedy hands?[/QUOTE] Shar placed the stone within the path of one of her followers. A party member as a matter of fact. Who isn't aware of its existence quite yet. You tend to get odd results when you gate a kender in from the dragonlance world.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 07:49 PM	And how do you intend to explain the loss of the Karsestone from Shar's greedy hands? Shar placed the stone within the path of one of her followers. A party member as a matter of fact. Who isn't aware of its existence quite yet. You tend to get odd results when you gate a kender in from the dragonlance world.[/QUOTE] LMAO:dancin: :dancin:
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 10:58 PM	We're so misunderstood:weep: -Indeed, we are. ...with the newly awakened 2/3rd Karsus plotting out how to retrieve his missing 1/3rd? -Boy, that sounds familiar... Karsis is my ***** Any moment now LK and KtM will show up and blast your poor behind to the far realm. :plotting: The Far Realm (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=839411&page=13) :evillaugh (It's Karsus, by the way, my good fellow...)
Lord_Madrigan 06-14-07, 11:17 PM	Lets see. to resurrect Karsus you need 1: The Karsestone (Excuse me Shar may I borrow that?) 2: Summon His Vestige 3:If it exsists find his stone body in the astral plane. 4: Research Epic Resurrection spell 5: Profit!
souldnce9 06-15-07, 02:25 AM	LK why exactly did you post a link to Healing Lolth? That didn't seem like a punishment, just amusing.
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 02:39 AM	The idea is that a group of zhents currently doing business in the pirate isles stumble across the karsestone (recently returned to the material). Which are then compelled by the stone (which has a mind of its own) to find the other two pieces in hope of returning Karsus to life, in return power and wealth is promised. The hard part is getting the PC’s through the aberration cursed dire wood. Then through the temple, getting past any harpers or chosen of mystra, so on and so forth. Maybe they’ll be lucky and strike an alliance with the shades. No I don’t intend on sending my party to they’re deaths against Karsus, but I’m not saying I wont leave the option open. Sounds pretty interesting. Maybe incorporate the ToM Karsus vestige as a minor manifestation of Karsus's divine essence (which is still currently floating in the astral). For a writeup I'll send you the Karsus I wrote up once I find the bugger on one of my other systems.
Slayergnome 06-15-07, 02:57 AM	I had a friend who ran a game where Karsus was put into a full suit of armor. There was alot of dimensional hopping as his party brought the pieces together unknowingly. Eventually they discovered what they had. They went all Spelljammer and traveled to a planet that is totally dead magic. One person voulnteered to have his body/soul split in two. Put on the armor and was sent to that planet.
Slayergnome 06-15-07, 02:58 AM	Who isn't aware of its existence quite yet. You tend to get odd results when you gate a kender in from the dragonlance world. Pukes a little in his mouth. Kender. *shiver*
XHereticX 06-15-07, 08:11 AM	Pukes a little in his mouth. Kender. *shiver* "Um, excuse me ms.ugly evil dark goddess who I don't know, can I borrow that?" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
ShadezofDis 06-15-07, 10:17 AM	All you really need to know about Karsus is that he'd mop the floor with any party you cared to throw at him. Though, if he were actually resurrected, which I can't imagine Mystra being ok with, he might need a few days/weeks/years to acclimate himself. But he's Karsus, he stole the divinity of the Goddess of Magic with a spell. You really don't get more bad *** than that.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-15-07, 10:32 AM	"Um, excuse me ms.ugly evil dark goddess who I don't know, can I borrow that?" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Alright, so I have to work on the whole story line of wrestling the stone from Shar. I suppose its more plausible too have Cale and Riven steal the stone, rather than Shar handing it out to one of her fanatical followers. I'm open to any other scenarios that your willing to part with.
souldnce9 06-15-07, 01:40 PM	I think your original idea is fine. I don't see why Shar wouldn't part with the stone if it meant that it would further her goals. Perhaps resurecting Karsus would be benificial to her. However just keep in mind that if the pc's don't do things the way Shar wants, then she will probably make life very short for them. Also if Karsus doesn't assist her the way she hoped, she'll probably just as likely go after the pc's for that as well. Be creative! In my campaign we are involved in Obauld's war, and where it differs from novels or FRCS is that Silverymoon was conquered. Take some liberty, have some fun.:D
ShadezofDis 06-15-07, 01:52 PM	Giving up the Karsestone to someone who has the potential to resurrect could distract Mystra quite a bit. That's worth a bit o' somethin. Of course having Karsus running around the Realms again might give poor lil Midnight a heart attack :)
Alediran 06-15-07, 03:14 PM	In my campaign we are involved in Obauld's war, and where it differs from novels or FRCS is that Silverymoon was conquered. Take some liberty, have some fun.:D HOW in the name of all that is holy to the Tel'Quessir did that group of bumbling, drooling, smeling, gray-green sons of an ogre wh*** could conquer Silverymoon?, they can't do it alone, especially not when a powerfull Mythal protects the city and many powerfull spellcasters live there. So who helped them?
ShadezofDis 06-15-07, 03:22 PM	HOW in the name of all that is holy to the Tel'Quessir did that group of bumbling, drooling, smeling, gray-green sons of an ogre wh*** could conquer Silverymoon?, they can't do it alone, especially not when a powerfull Mythal protects the city and many powerfull spellcasters live there. So who helped them? Draconic or Demonic backing would do nicely. Or something more sinister.
XHereticX 06-15-07, 03:31 PM	how dare you forget the Baatezu, far more effective than some stinking demons:mad:
ShadezofDis 06-15-07, 03:33 PM	how dare you forget the Baatezu, far more effective than some stinking demons:mad: CE (typical alignment for an Orc) and LE don't always "gel" well, hence the reason I said Demons. :P I forget nothing! Except my pants, but that's only on bad mornings ;)
Zsych 06-15-07, 11:16 PM	There should be a serious question here of what he'd come back as. He died a demi-god. Mystra/Mystryl is the Weave. Her divinity, in my opinion is permanently bound to it. The Karse-stone is perpetually leaking original-Weave Heavy Magic, which means that part of the original Weave and the original Mystryl is still within him. ... Thus, IMO, if Karsus returns, he should return as a god of magic. How powerful is somewhat debateable. He might end up automatically sharing the Weave with Mystra with neither of them being fully in control. He might end up with the potential to create his own Weave from what is within him, but not directly linked to the existing Weave. ... or something strange might happen to the source of the Heavy Magic. Karsus was a genius, so if people thought him crazy, that's understandable. He'd be aware of, and thinking on a level beyond their comprehension... when he wasn't having his actual bouts of insanity.... which I would personally relate to Shar(sane one time, nuts the next... there should be some reason) -- If I were a newly returned Karsus and aware of the situation. My first action would actually be to retreat(not that I'd think of it that way exactly :)). I'd create a defensible position where Mystra couldn't directly hurt me, and then start finding out what I could about the remainders of Netheril(maybe even try to somehow resurrect dead Archmages, for without them and their enclaves, there is no Netheril).. The state of magic, and higher magic being banned(re-routed), would also be an issue. ... The fall back position would have to be a place where my 10+ magic works fine. --- btw, with Karsus returned, I would think that you would need to flesh him out some, both in personality and abilities. Spells like Karsus Avatar for taking the power of an existing god(and actually turning him into a god, so that he died a demi-god)... should not exist in a vacuum. His magical understanding would have led to the creation of many other impressive spells, and also some spells that are linked to gods... maybe one that can hide him or his servants from the sight of gods. --- ... Also, as in the old Shade vs. Evermeet thread. I say again that it should be possible to recreate the effects of higher magic by someone who knows what he's trying to do by adapting lower magic. Even if that means that you spend 10 hours casting a spell with 9th level magic, that would have taken 1 minute with 10th level(not that epic magic isn't around)... Casting with the spell broken down for use by multiple casters together should also work. (not that Karsus doesn't have Heavy Magic to power old style items and maybe spells with)
Lord Karsus 06-15-07, 11:58 PM	-I love that thread...:)
Karsus the Mad 06-16-07, 07:20 AM	Why would Karsus retain his divinity? Like his soul, it too was torn away. It now exists independently of his soul and physical remains. It sits on the astral as does any dead deities essence. Even if he somehow retained the divine essence after a return, he wouldn't be a god of magic. His portfolio is unending arrogance and hubris, and returning as a deity would almost certainly be with those. Having temporary control over Magic is not the same thing as having Magic (or more accurately, the Weave) in ones portfolio. I would surmise that during the spells duration before it went completely haywire, he did indeed have Mystryl's portfolio, but upon the spell being interrupted and his death, those portfolios were lost and dispersed (some going to the new Mystra, others being claimed later in history by other deities). Returning now as a deity would leave him with what little was left: possibly energy and time if he should claim them. As it stands tho', the only portfolio remaining exclusive to him in (why can't I ever remember that darned 2e gods book!?) is arrogance and hubris.
Zsych 06-16-07, 05:53 PM	Arrogance and Hubris are portfolios now? lol Anyway, split though his soul may be, that dead demi-god carcass is still his. Perhaps that's what his spell did, turned him into a low-end god, and then absorb a god's power into that... for a while. If his godhood had dispersed he would not have left that carcass on the astral behind. - Now as far as portfolios go. I've always said that a one word description can hardly be considered complete. Mystra having 'spells' in her portfolio has been behind a lot of debates, regarding the shadow-weave. But really, how could she have control over all spells? What mechanics would allow her that, while she is limited to the Weave? .. similarly, although nothing is said about Karsus currently having the magic portfolio, since he does have a portion of Mystryl and the original Weave within him, when he comes back, he should have that power on hand, effectively giving him some control over magic. In a sense, he would be partially Karsus and partially Mystryl. How big a chunk of Mystryl got left in him when she killed herself is hard to determine. The spell was interrupted, so he was only part of the way through. There's nothing even to say that without the components of the spell that would allow a natural returning of Mystryl's power, that it could have returned easily(who knows what state it was in). --- I'd personally think that if he came back, he would have the source of the Heavy Magic with him, and the power that comes with it. Apparently it still interacts with the Weave fine(or the Shades wouldn't have been able to use it)... and if it works independently of the Weave, then... Basically, IMO, Karsus should either be god of Heavy Magic, or a low-end god of Weave magic, sharing Mystra's power(she'd probably have more control over the Weave, but he's a bloody genius, he can think of something to do... if he wants to, after being thoroughly demoralized by seeing his failure over and over again for millenia). Maybe the Weave would become stronger from having its lost part restored, and Karsus and Mysta's minds would both be bound to it controlling it(the current Mystra isn't exactly the original. She's a new brain attached to the existing divine body that is the Weave) ... If, he part of the Weave inside Karsus doesn't merge with Mystra's Weave, then Mystra might know that absorbing it would Mystra stronger .. than Shar with her Shadow-weave.... That could be interesting. Karsus could want to live, Mystra could want to absorb him, Shar would want to protect or destroy him(as suits her), and other gods could eventually also be somewhat involved. ... could be fun. ---- Seriously though, how could you not give a mage who surpassed the magic of the goddess of magic dominion over it as a god? Edit: That Binder business(don't really know much about it), backed by divine power could also be interesting(on top of other abilities) ... Depends I suppose, on what you plan to do with Karsus once he's back.
Karsus the Mad 06-16-07, 08:18 PM	Arrogance and Hubris are portfolios now? lol Pretty much. Powers & Pantheons wrote: Karsus (Dead) (The Momentary God, The Archwizard) Demipower of the Prime Material Plane, N Portfolio: Folly of overweening arrogance and ambition, unending hubris Aliases: None Domain Name: Formerly: Toril/Faérun; currently mired in the Dire Wood and tenuously adrift in the Astral Superior: None Allies: None Foes: Mystra Symbol: None And I'm reasonbly sure he couldn't even begin to contend with Mystra over any amount of control of the Weave. It was, afterall, specifically noted that he couldn't handle the job. And Heavy Magic? What about it? It's not exactly special. Are you going by that nonsense in RotA?;)
Lord Karsus 06-16-07, 09:21 PM	If his godhood had dispersed he would not have left that carcass on the astral behind. -Good point. Though, this could be explained by all of the "zanyness" that was going on when I died. I was the deity of magic, but I wasn't. The Weave was functioning, but it wasn't. And so on...
Zsych 06-16-07, 09:43 PM	The Weave was functioning fine under Karsus. So magic had doubled in power, and the self-repair system hadn't been activated yet. With Karsus being only half-a-second into his job. He would've figured out how to run it, if the previously ultra-retarded Mystra managed after accidentally being imbued by Mystryl's godhood(the same godhood that was going to Karsus) As for Heavy Magic, I am going by the original Netheril novelsand what RotA said about it still being pure Weave magic, as opposed to the weakened/restricted magic of today. -- Again, lets remember that Midnight is really a human mind given Mystra's powers(her having a human mind is why she can't understand Mystryl's thoughts). If you go by the novels, her consciousness can even be isolated and seperated from the Weave(I think Helm did that to her... but it was an ability she didn't manage to counter with her own divine power). Karsus, if he still retains a part of Mystryl within him, should have a fair chance of linking with and controlling the Weave. ... would depend on how you want to play it I suppose.
Meldread 06-16-07, 10:23 PM	The Weave was functioning fine under Karsus. So magic had doubled in power, and the self-repair system hadn't been activated yet. With Karsus being only half-a-second into his job. He would've figured out how to run it, if the previously ultra-retarded Mystra managed after accidentally being imbued by Mystryl's godhood(the same godhood that was going to Karsus) I have to agree with Zsych to a degree. After all if the retarded farm girl who became Mystra could operate the Weave there is no reason why Karsus couldn't. In fact, one might even argue that he would have done an even better job at it, and had he been the god of magic he wouldn't have died during the ToT. :P (Actually, if Karsus had successfully became the new god of magic, he likely would have gained enough power to overthrow Ao... he was ambitious like that.) Anyway, I have to agree that if Karsus is resurrected he would have some type of a link with the Weave. However, I am not sure what the end result would be - the Weave and Mystra - they are the same. Mystra would know INSTANTLY the moment Karsus is resurrected as a result and would likely even have forewarning thanks to her portfolio senses. (Though we have to question why the original Mystryl didn't detect Karsus' initial assault to take control of magic.) I think without some hand waving, we're running into some type of cosmic paradox. If -I- was DMing the game I would have every Chosen plus Mystra's avatar's working day and night to stop (and preferably kill without mercy) anyone even attempting this... and it wouldn't even have a snowballs chance in hell of going off without the support of another deity. Shar would be the most likely bet because she has the heart of Karsus. However, if that could somehow be obtained I could also imagine Talos, Cyric... hell just about any Greater Evil deity throwing themselves at the chance to help bring him back. If successful I would rule that the moment Karsus was resurrected his spell to take the Godhood of Mystra was complete. Instantly he'd become the new deity of magic, spells, the weave, arrogance and hubris. Mystra would be stripped of her divine powers and retransformed back into the mortal Midnight. All of Mystra's Chosen would immediately lose their link with the Weave. The Weave would cease to function for roughly a split second... that would kill anything that is sustained by magic such as undead or those who prolonged their lives through weave based magic. (The undead would die instantly as magic would cease to function and beings given immortality through various means would immediately age to their correct age - likely killing them.) There would be some transfer problems. Toril would have large wild magic areas that would need to be repaired. Though most of these problems would be temporary. Karsus would be an Intermediate Deity for awhile but quickly swell to gain more and more divine rank until he's reached Mystra's former divine rank of 18. The alternative way of dealing with it is to have Mystra and a newly resurrected Karsus fighting over control of the Weave. In such a situation Mystra would likely have to react the same as Mystryl - committing suicide and in turn killing Karsus again. Otherwise Mystra would easily be able to smite the newly resurrected (and therefore weakened) Karsus. I'd only go this route if you wanted to remove Mystra from your campaign along with all of her Chosen. You'd also likely end up having to kill Azuth as well.
souldnce9 06-17-07, 02:55 AM	HOW in the name of all that is holy to the Tel'Quessir did that group of bumbling, drooling, smeling, gray-green sons of an ogre wh*** could conquer Silverymoon?, they can't do it alone, especially not when a powerfull Mythal protects the city and many powerfull spellcasters live there. So who helped them? Seriously! How in the Nine Hells am I supposed to know that? I am just as baffled, and I'm stuck in Mythral Hall right now. Maybe I'll ask next time I game, however I don't think my DM is gonna just tell me. Wow I would so like to see Karsus as a god.
Zsych 06-17-07, 04:01 AM	I don't think a genius who worked hard by himself to become a god, has any chance of becoming one in FR. Only bumbling morons stumble onto godhood in FR. (Exagerrated I know, but it sounds funnier that way) -- I'm not sure the Weave would cease to exist even for an instant while Karsus and Mystra were fighting over it. And suicide for Mystra would be extremely dangerous, because as with Mystryl, there would be no guarantee that magic would be restored by any later agent(effectively dooming Toril to destruction to the best of Mystra's knowledge)... Plus, if Karsus is resurrected(through ritual or what not), as a living god with a source of power no longer completely dependent on the Weave, then Mystra's death may no longer be enough to kill him. ... With part of the Weave within Karsus, I would sorta think of him as partly being Mystryl(albiet, with his mind overriding the part of him that is her)... just my way of looking at things. And the chosen... should become Chosen of Karsus and Mystra and Chosen of Karsus if Mystra goes down. What he'd do with them is a seperate issue. Don't think he'd throw away talented mages. -- As for undead... I'm not sure why, but Netherese liches managed to survive the fall of Netheril(while those maintained by Ioulaum's longevity died). I don't think the lack of magic actually hurts an undead, they become a different form of life that is linked to the negative plane, and as capable of staying alive without magic afterward as any non-magical being(unlike creatures like the Phaerimm, who died without magic). ... Somehow, even Aumvor's contingency spells for the event of his death managed to work with the magic failure, so that he became a lich when the magic sustaining him failed and he died... perhaps meaning that whatever structure is set up to turn someone into a lich, doesn't need magic beyond the initial setup(like a ball that has been started rolling with a push, but is now moving with its own momentum).
XHereticX 06-17-07, 11:29 AM	I agree with bascically everything Zsych said. Also, maybe Karsus has become the living embodiment of the weave itself, while Mystra is only the steward. Mystryl could very well have turned into 2 deities, Karsus and Mystra.
BrennonGoldeye 06-17-07, 12:02 PM	LK why exactly did you post a link to Healing Lolth? That didn't seem like a punishment, just amusing. Reread the last bit of the last post on Healing Lolth. :D
Meldread 06-17-07, 12:46 PM	I'm not sure the Weave would cease to exist even for an instant while Karsus and Mystra were fighting over it. And suicide for Mystra would be extremely dangerous, because as with Mystryl, there would be no guarantee that magic would be restored by any later agent(effectively dooming Toril to destruction to the best of Mystra's knowledge)... Plus, if Karsus is resurrected(through ritual or what not), as a living god with a source of power no longer completely dependent on the Weave, then Mystra's death may no longer be enough to kill him. You're right her death might no longer be enough, and the Weave may not cease to function. Although I do not think we can say with 100% certainty either way and such things would likely fall to DM descreshion. Personally, I would allow Mystra's sacrifice to kill Karsus again for the simple fact that I would not want to limit the DM. Mystra and Karsus 'share' a body (the Weave) so if one committed suicide it would kill the other. A DM may not have intended for Karsus to become the new deity of magic, and I would leave this option open for the DM to prevent it from happening. Keep in mind that Mystryl did not know what would happen after she committed suicide either. If Mystryl would do it to prevent Karsus from becoming a deity I do not see why Mystra would not... especially considering self-sacrifice is part of being a good aligned individual. As for the Weave itself disappearing temporarily... it may or may not happen. I am not sure, but I do believe there should be transitional problems. I do not believe it should happen seamlessly. ... With part of the Weave within Karsus, I would sorta think of him as partly being Mystryl(albiet, with his mind overriding the part of him that is her)... just my way of looking at things. Yes, I agree. And the chosen... should become Chosen of Karsus and Mystra and Chosen of Karsus if Mystra goes down. What he'd do with them is a seperate issue. Don't think he'd throw away talented mages. Well I said the Chosen would die because when Karsus ascended to take over the Weave, I wrote that the weave would briefly (for a millisecond) stop functioning as control passed from Mystra to Karsus. This would then in turn sever the link that the Chosen have with the Weave, thereby stripping them of their immortality and forcing them to age instantly. This would naturally kill them considering I think the youngest who are the seven sisters are what.... 600-700 years old? If it didn't kill them it would certainly advance them to the last years of their lives, and it is unlikely that they would regain their connection with the Weave after Karsus ascended. I cannot imagine one of the Chosen willingly swearing allegiance to Karsus especially after killing Mystra. It would be the equivalent of someone killing one of your good friends and then expecting you to align yourself with her murderer. As for undead... I'm not sure why, but Netherese liches managed to survive the fall of Netheril(while those maintained by Ioulaum's longevity died). Because they didn't want to get rid of the high level Lich Wizards. Personally, I think this is something else that falls under DM descreshion. I would rule that it kills them simply because to sustain their link to the negative energy plane would requires them to be magically linked to said plane. If the Weave ceases to function even for a millisecond, that link is severed and their bodies fall to the ground lifeless. For Liches this would normally mean returning to their phylacteries, however because magic no longer works this is impossible so they die "normally". Really, I think it was dumb that undead managed to survive Karsus Folly while others did not. I would rule that this is what would happen. However, Karsus coming back has a 0.001% chance of ever happening. Not only would you have to face every single one of her Chosen, but Mystra would be well within her right of banning you from the Weave because you are threatening it with your actions. This would more or less force you into the Shadow Weave and make the entire situation a Sharran plot. Not only would you face ALL of Mystra's Chosen, but you would also face Avatar's of Mystra (plural - meaning more than one) AND likely individuals such as Larloch who are very interested in maintaining the status quo... basically you'll be facing off against every single Weave based spell caster on the planet of Toril. The game would have to be Ultra-Epic with PC's anywhere from level 30 to level 40.
Karsus the Mad 06-17-07, 01:04 PM	The Weave was functioning fine under Karsus. So magic had doubled in power, and the self-repair system hadn't been activated yet. With Karsus being only half-a-second into his job. He would've figured out how to run it, if the previously ultra-retarded Mystra managed after accidentally being imbued by Mystryl's godhood(the same godhood that was going to Karsus) That would make sense save for After casting his spell, the body of the Archwizard swelled with the sudden influx of godly power, and his mind filled with unimaginable knowledge. Karsus instantly realized the horrible mistake he had made, but he knew there was nothing he could do to stop the inevitable. The Archwizard had stolen the mantle of divinity from the one power whose portfolio required her to constantly rework the Weave of magic - the Weave that Netheril and its glut of magic constantly threatened to unraveal. When Mystryl lost her ability to maintain the Weave's integrity, Karsus was ill-equipped to serve in her stead. The Weave began to fluctuate wildly, and the lands of Netheril and beyond were inundated with a flood of raw magic which surged and ebbed with far greater power and destructive force than had ever been seen before. While under Karsus, the Weave was anything but fine.
Meldread 06-17-07, 01:18 PM	I'm aware of that passage but I believe it comes down to how you interpret it. Personally, I think if a retarded farm girl can manage the Weave I believe Karsus could have pulled it off. I believe that the problem he ran into was the method by which he achieved his divinity. In a sense, I think he hit some type of cosmic paradox. As he was using the Weave to take control of the Weave the transition ran into a snag that he overlooked. It is also why I suggested that Karsus would start out as an Intermediate Deity instead of instantly being a Greater Deity. There would be a lot for him to learn and his complete control over the Weave would not truly be "complete" for some time. After he ascends most of Toril would likely be a Wild Magic Zone and even Dead Magic Zone in some areas.
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 06:16 PM	Personally, I think if a retarded farm girl can manage the Weave I believe Karsus could have pulled it off. -Said woman did not have to deal with the destructive influence on the Weave that the Netherese and the Phaerimm were. By the time Mystra was born (those crucial couple of "divine seconds"), the "Ban" was already in place, and Netheril was already laid low, no pun intended. -By the way, does anyone want to join a cult dedicated to my/our greatness?
Meldread 06-17-07, 06:50 PM	Said woman did not have to deal with the destructive influence on the Weave that the Netherese and the Phaerimm were. By the time Mystra was born (those crucial couple of "divine seconds"), the "Ban" was already in place, and Netheril was already laid low, no pun intended. That's true. However, whatever the reason behind it I still believe that Karsus is/was still a more than capable individual to manage the Weave. It's a serious insult if one of the worlds most brilliant minds cannot comprehend the complexities of the Weave, but a mentally challenged farm girl who happens to be imbued with divine power - by accident - somehow manages to fair just fine. (And really we wonder why Mystra was so "retarded" during the Time of Troubles... perhaps she really was? A mortal that became a god, that was once again thrown back into mortal form would likely at least in part revert to their former state.) By the way, does anyone want to join a cult dedicated to my/our greatness? I'd only be worshiping Shar by proxy. If in the event Karsus was ever resurrected, and we're talking 0.001% chance here, he'd either end up being Shar's or Cyric's puppet. Those are the most likely two who would make the attempt. In any event, I wish Karsus had been successful. I believe he would have been a much more interesting deity and one more worthy of the power.
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 06:59 PM	That's true. However, whatever the reason behind it I still believe that Karsus is/was still a more than capable individual to manage the Weave. It's a serious insult if one of the worlds most brilliant minds cannot comprehend the complexities of the Weave, but a mentally challenged farm girl who happens to be imbued with divine power - by accident - somehow manages to fair just fine. (And really we wonder why Mystra was so "retarded" during the Time of Troubles... perhaps she really was? A mortal that became a god, that was once again thrown back into mortal form would likely at least in part revert to their former state.) -The problem isn't that I/We weren't smart enough to figure out how to manipulate and fix the Weave. As you mentioned, the dull-witted woman who became Mystra did not seem to have any trouble. But, it was the timing of everything. When I cast my/our spell, it was at the height of the Netherese-Phaerimm war. As my alterego pointed out in that quote, "...the Weave that Netheril and its glut of magic constantly threatened to unraveal." -Mystra did not have this problem to worry about. Netheril was already "over" by the time she was elevated. Think of that game, Wack-A-Mole. When the moles pop up slowly, at the beginning, it's easy. But, when the moles pop up and retreat really fast, it can get challenging. That second example was my/our situation, while the first was Mystra's situation.
ShadezofDis 06-18-07, 10:36 AM	Further, there's nothing about Karsus stealing Mystryl's knowledge. It's likely that the essence of Mystryl was able to completely subsume (or 99.99999% subsume) the "poor farm girl" and retain most of her "Mystrylness" where as Karsus just got the divinity and none of the knowledge. If he'd been able to steal her knowledge then he may well have been able to figure . . . well, nah, he'd have been overwhelmed by the amount of knowledge and wouldn't really have been able to call upon Mystryls abilities to repair the Weave properly. If Karsus had a few weeks to practice handling the Weave then he may have been able to "work it" but that was probably also the most difficult time to be the divinity in charge of the Weave, so it might have just been plain impossible without the experience and knowledge of Mystryl. And we don't know how long she would have been able to keep things under control, for all we know she was at the end of her limits.
Neyvn 06-18-07, 11:09 AM	Besides, Midnight was just storing a part of the divine essence. She had little control over the weave. All of Toril was suffering while she had that peice of divine essence plus all of it was split to others as well. She didn't have to control the weave until she was givin the ability by Ao. Unlike Karsus who got it all at once with no blessing from Ao.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-18-07, 01:30 PM	Why is everyone focusing on what Karsus was instead of what he could be? Remember Shar now holds a piece of Karsus's soul, if she wishes for his return she has several powerful chosen backing her orders as well. Old El will have his work cut out for him. Shar at least has one current ally (Talona) and if any other evil deities believe it to be a good time for another Mystra mishap I'm sure they'll throw in some heavy hitters as well. Fzoul and Manshoon are always capable candidates. Ideally located right across the desert. Just think if Shar gave Karsus a little access to the shadow weave, what possibilites would that create?
ShadezofDis 06-18-07, 02:28 PM	Just think if Shar gave Karsus a little access to the shadow weave, what possibilites would that create? I don't really think Karsus would dig the Shadow Weave, assuming he had/has knowledge of it (which I don't really see as that unlikely), but the be all end all of it is that the Shadow Weave is a pale imitation of the Weave and Karsus would likely disdain it. :)
Renvale999 06-18-07, 03:12 PM	Draconic or Demonic backing would do nicely. Or something more sinister. Asmodues gets tired of the Blood War and the politics of the Hells and takes down Silverymoon...interesting....very interesting...:evillaugh
ShadezofDis 06-18-07, 03:35 PM	Asmodues gets tired of the Blood War and the politics of the Hells and takes down Silverymoon...interesting....very interesting...:evillaugh Pssssssst Asmodues is a Devil ;)
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-18-07, 03:52 PM	Asmodues gets tired of the Blood War and the politics of the Hells and takes down Silverymoon...interesting....very interesting...:evillaugh I think Graz'zt or Orcus would be a better candidate for your "demonic" orcish hoard backing. The Lords of the Nine probably couldn't stand working with the mindless orcs. Orcus on the other hand could send wave after wave of orcs into battle to be cut down raising them once again shortly after as a slightly dumber undead hoard.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-18-07, 04:10 PM	I don't really think Karsus would dig the Shadow Weave, assuming he had/has knowledge of it (which I don't really see as that unlikely), but the be all end all of it is that the Shadow Weave is a pale imitation of the Weave and Karsus would likely disdain it. :) With Karsus coming back into existence I dont think he'd be to picky on where he draws his power from, just as long as he can. At least until he is strong enough to challenge Mystra for the weave. ---You make due with what you have until you are strong enough to take what you desire.
ShadezofDis 06-18-07, 04:26 PM	With Karsus coming back into existence I dont think he'd be to picky on where he draws his power from, just as long as he can. At least until he is strong enough to challenge Mystra for the weave. ---You make due with what you have until you are strong enough to take what you desire. Karsus never "makes due". Further, since there is no invasion of Phaehowevertheheckyouspellit then he has no real reason to try and wrest control of the weave away from Mystra, he did that so that he could end the war and keep Nethril going, not because he wanted to be a god. And yes, he would be picky about where he's drawing his power from, he's Karsus, he doesn't settle for the second best. :) Granted anything could have happened to his mind during the intervening years but that's all suposition, as Karsus was I couldn't see him using the Shadow Weave for any reason.
The Ubbergeek 06-18-07, 04:29 PM	One wonder why Mystra didn't just, like, shift him into another world and close the door behind... Imagine the choas he'd make in Greyhawk, by example. :P
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-18-07, 04:56 PM	Karsus never "makes due". Further, since there is no invasion of Phaehowevertheheckyouspellit then he has no real reason to try and wrest control of the weave away from Mystra, he did that so that he could end the war and keep Nethril going, not because he wanted to be a god. And yes, he would be picky about where he's drawing his power from, he's Karsus, he doesn't settle for the second best. :) Granted anything could have happened to his mind during the intervening years but that's all suposition, as Karsus was I couldn't see him using the Shadow Weave for any reason. Alright alright alright, I had to throw it out there to see what kind of a response I'd get. Thats why I started this whole forum to learn more about Karsus and his personality.
Meldread 06-18-07, 06:58 PM	Remember Shar now holds a piece of Karsus's soul, if she wishes for his return she has several powerful chosen backing her orders as well. Old El will have his work cut out for him. Shar at least has one current ally (Talona) and if any other evil deities believe it to be a good time for another Mystra mishap I'm sure they'll throw in some heavy hitters as well. Fzoul and Manshoon are always capable candidates. Ideally located right across the desert. Just think if Shar gave Karsus a little access to the shadow weave, what possibilites would that create? Oh, I like that idea. Let me expand on it. Shar knowing that the Shadow Weave is weaker than the Weave and wanting to make a direct strike against Mystra sets a plan in motion to resurrect Karsus. Because Shar basically has the soul of Karsus in her hands she could theoretically control his every action, making him act as if he was under an insanely powerful geas. Upon resurrection she would strap the Shadow Weave to him, and he would have the following portfolios: Magic, Spells, the Shadow Weave, Arrogance and Hubris. Shar would basically use Karsus as a pawn to challenge Mystra for control of all magic on Toril. He would be forced into the service of Shar and with his knowledge of Magic he could find ways to improve the Shadow Weave far beyond even what the Weave is capable of... thereby attracting many spellcasters away from the Weave to the Shadow Weave. Which would in turn weaken Mystra greatly. The end result would be Karsus destroying Mystra and finding a way to merge the Weave and Shadow Weave into one universal Weave becoming the sole and supreme god of magic. However somewhere after this act he would also end up free from Shar's control... thus making him independent of Shar and keeping the status quo. Ta-da! You get rid of both Mystra and the Shadow Weave (two things that a lot of people really dislike) while AT THE SAME TIME getting a totally worthy god of magic. ;) Everyone wins! ...well except for Shar. Poor lady.
Zsych 06-18-07, 08:22 PM	Hmmm... Karsus did have the near omniscience that Mystryl had(or as I said, maybe more in that he may have been aware of everything, not knowing how to filter out info)... Probably would've managed. Mystra... did still have to deal with Netheril and such, and the ban(which isn't actually a ban), wasn't in effect when she first awoke as a goddess. Reactivation of the Weave would have once again gotten the Netherese mythallar and everything else working. Mystra reworked the Weave(somewhere in the first seconds of her awakening), so that the paths to higher power would become harder to access(or at least be changed, with only her knowing how to reach those levels of power afterward) ... The highest flying Netherese enclaves still hadn't quite managed to fall to the ground while this was happening(although I suppose Mystra could have done the reworking later... Netherese archmages only realized later that 10+ was down) -- On Mystra having gained all of Mystryl's knowledge in a worthwhile form... Ed says that Midnight can't really understand the left over memories of Mystryl, while she understands Mystra's fine. Probably implies that the first Mystra wouldn't have had a very good time trying to understand Mystryl's mind and thoughts either.... Must've had one hell of a well developed gut instinct :) -- Also the problem with Mystryl's suicide is that, as far as she knew the Weave would be forever destroyed by her death. Thus also destroying Toril over time. There's really no way it was a good decision or one that took others into consideration(although as a person born a greater goddess, caring much about the fate of creatures like humans or elves, probably isn't all that natural). I did suggest once that Mystryl's decision to commit suicide might be conceptually similar to a woman's emotional reaction to getting raped, rather than a decision with intelligence behind it. --- On Karsus' ressurection... If you could get enough followers, and some with enough faith/clerical ability to perform the ritual to resurrect Karsus, you might not need all that much Weave magic. If you did the ritual near the astral body left by Karsus... I'm not even sure Mystra's Weave senses would really detect it(depends on whether the Weave itself exists in the astral, which I don't think it does... even in one of the Avatar novels set during the ToT I think, El jumped off through a portal to where the Weave didn't exist and magic was working fine) --- As for the Chosen. Problem is that they contain a part of Mystra's divinity themselves and thus a part of the Weave. That is one of Mystra's defences against the complete destruction of the Weave, and I don't think that even Mystra can take that part of her godhood(which as a side-effect gives them long life and silver fire), back from them against their will(without killing them). So they should be okay(as they were in the ToT). ... Halaster should've died during the time of troubles from lack of his life sustaining magics. (Although one should also wonder at the nature of the magic that sustains someone's life... If the body itself has been transformed completely to a younger state, then magic may not be needed to sustain that state, and even without magic, the person might stay young) I think that may be why liches survived. Their souls are bound to their phylacteries instead of their bodies. Once that is done, the souls probably stay there. Even if lich bodies stopped working while magic was down, if their soul remained in Toril, they could've come back when magic came back online.. Although, I don't think a lich or demi-lich suddenly dies when it hits a dead magic zone(which is effectively a place without the Weave). Even Anti-Magic shells might've been dangerous to a lich's health, if it depended too much on functioning magic. --- ... I gather from various hints that Wizards actually has some plans for Karsus. So maybe there will be a Sharran plot to bring him back. --- As for the Shadow-weave's weakness. It seems to power spells normally, and Shar is said to have kept its deepest secrets for herself(not to mention the possiblility of 10+ magic working with it, although I rather think it doesn't). If Shar reveals some of those secrets to Karsus, then it may not matter that as a whole the Shadow-weave is weaker... as long as Karsus can gain more power through it than he could with the original Weave. He should at least want to restore Netheril(and Shade is a good starting point). .. Also having become aware that the Weave and the Shadow-weave are ruled by goddesses, and that his source of power is permanently in doubt, he should hatch a plan to make his source of power more secure. I doubt he'd mind becoming a god either(even if with the support of someone like Shar). Netherese Archmages wanted to be gods, or at least godlike in power and independence. Without the Phaerimm war, he might've turned himself into a god via a less risky fashion a few decades down the line, or perhaps he would've sought to become a being with a god's power, but not a god's limitiations(limitations that annoyed Myrkul enough that he chooses not to try to become a god again) --- I wonder, how millenia of seeing his failure would have effected Karsus. If he wasn't demoralized, then it may be that his long term goals would include the complete resurrection of old Netheril(and by that I mean also bringing back the old inhabitants killed by his failure, as an act of atonement)
BrennonGoldeye 06-18-07, 08:38 PM	On Mystra having gained all of Mystryl's knowledge in a worthwhile form... Ed says that Midnight can't really understand the left over memories of Mystryl, while she understands Mystra's fine. Probably implies that the first Mystra wouldn't have had a very good time trying to understand Mystryl's mind and thoughts either.... Must've had one hell of a well developed gut instinct Hiya Zsych.:) The only conclusion I can see from that first sentence is that daughters have an understanding of their mothers, but not always their grandmothers. ;)
Lord Karsus 06-19-07, 01:29 AM	Remember Shar now holds a piece of Karsus's soul, if she wishes for his return she has several powerful chosen backing her orders as well. -What makes you think that Shar has multiple Chosen backing her up?
Slayergnome 06-19-07, 11:34 AM	Alright, so I have to work on the whole story line of wrestling the stone from Shar. I suppose its more plausible too have Cale and Riven steal the stone, rather than Shar handing it out to one of her fanatical followers. I'm open to any other scenarios that your willing to part with. Time of Troubles *Cough* avatar was busy posing as her sister in Waterdeep most of that time till chased out by Selune clerics after they freed the good sister. Perhaps during this confusing and troubling time she lost or had it stolen from her.
Karsus the Mad 06-19-07, 11:54 AM	Time of Troubles *Cough* avatar was busy posing as her sister in Waterdeep most of that time till chased out by Selune clerics after they freed the good sister. Perhaps during this confusing and troubling time she lost or had it stolen from her. Shar didn't get possession of the Karsestone until 1372 DR. It takes place during the Return of the Archwizards trilogy.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-19-07, 01:04 PM	-What makes you think that Shar has multiple Chosen backing her up? Why wouldn't she? Mystra has multiple you would think Shar would like to keep up. Even little old mask has 2-7 if i remember correctly.
Lord Karsus 06-19-07, 02:31 PM	Why wouldn't she? Mystra has multiple you would think Shar would like to keep up. Even little old mask has 2-7 if i remember correctly. -Going by that logic, every deity would have multiple Chosen, since they'd all be competing with each other. Every other person on Faerûn would be chosen by a deity. It wouldn't work. Too many deities would expend too much energy "elevating" a mortal to Chosen status. -Canon states that Shar has a Chosen. That's all. -Mask has five Chosen, by the way, three of whom have been revealed, as of right now- Kesson, Erevis and Riven.
Zsych 06-20-07, 03:30 PM	@Brennon: Hi there, Regarding the Mystra, Midnight situation. Its when Ed was talking about how Midnight can often feel Mystra's lust for Elminster(a rather uncomfortable experience :)), whereas, although she has Mystryl's memories including those of when she was hit by Karsus' attack, they feel utterly alien to her, and Mystryl's emotions and thoughts aren't really something she understands. Seems to me that both Midnight and Mystra retained part of their human minds when they ascended.... and Mystryl was the product of a random magical accident between gods, so great wisdom perhaps is not a default quality. Also, I think personally, that with the Weave being Mystra, that her memories and such might also be embedded in it, and that a new consciousness/soul that takes it over would still have access to the old memories. ---- As for gods and chosen. I don't think the other gods put their own divinity into their chosen like Mystra did(she also does it to safe-guard the Weave some I believe) Mask for example, sent Erevis Cale down a path that would leave him much stronger. Shar should be able to guide her servants on to similar paths of great power, without actually sacrificing her divinity(though the gods also realized the benefits of keeping backups of their power, just in case something like the ToT happens again.. so maybe the more powerful ones will put some of their divinity into chosen mortals). Of course, if that were happening often, and there were super-powered characters everywhere the game would end up being a mess... although I suppose if its for the god's security, a chosen might be kept protected somewhere instead of being sent into danger. Still... Maybe there should be a numerical limit on the number of direct servants a god is supposed to have, as part of Ao's 'gods should serve their worshippers, and not just use them in their games' move. - ... Perhaps Karsus will rise as a chosen of Shar(the old Weave magic and such within him, and his demi-godhood, will no doubt be forgotten without explanation in such a case). Karsus risen again as a god would be much more interesting. Just imagine Mystra's reaction.
XHereticX 06-20-07, 04:29 PM	I still say that karsus will be the next Mystra. He was never evil, just insane and paranoid.
Lord Karsus 06-20-07, 06:08 PM	-We weren't, and aren't insane, right Karsus?
Karsus the Mad 06-20-07, 07:24 PM	-We weren't, and aren't insane, right Karsus? Damn skippy! People are just jealous. At least that's the only reasoning I can find as to why low lifes keep talking about us...sad fools....they blame us for what they can't understand, credit us with they themselves desire.....then whine when they fail. Sad things, mortals.....PC's and DM's are just...bleh. I refuse to return because I'm rather happy as I am. Fools.
XHereticX 06-20-07, 07:39 PM	Yup, that explains it;) don't worry masters, as your faithful Hand I will try to cover-up as much parts of that story as possible while simultaneously gaining more recruits.
Karsus the Mad 06-20-07, 07:57 PM	Yup, that explains it;) don't worry masters, as your faithful Hand I will try to cover-up as much parts of that story as possible while simultaneously gaining more recruits. Good...Send recruits LK's way...he's the Lord aspect anyway... uhhh...send any spellcasters my way...I'm the spell genius aspect....yup.
BrennonGoldeye 06-20-07, 08:45 PM	MmmHmm, spell genius. Spookmeister of Conjuration for 6 years running at the :pumpkin: party. You will never look at bobbing apples the same again. :twitch: @Brennon: Hi there, Regarding the Mystra, Midnight situation. Its when Ed was talking about how Midnight can often feel Mystra's lust for Elminster(a rather uncomfortable experience ), whereas, although she has Mystryl's memories including those of when she was hit by Karsus' attack, they feel utterly alien to her, and Mystryl's emotions and thoughts aren't really something she understands. Seems to me that both Midnight and Mystra retained part of their human minds when they ascended.... and Mystryl was the product of a random magical accident between gods, so great wisdom perhaps is not a default quality. Also, I think personally, that with the Weave being Mystra, that her memories and such might also be embedded in it, and that a new consciousness/soul that takes it over would still have access to the old memories. Well, yeah, when ya put it that way. :ayyyy!: Good to see ya. :D
Lord Karsus 06-20-07, 10:48 PM	MmmHmm, spell genius. Spookmeister of Conjuration for 6 years running at the :pumpkin: party. You will never look at bobbing apples the same again. :twitch: -That was pretty funny when KtM enchanted those apples to bite back, eh? :D
ShadezofDis 06-21-07, 11:21 AM	I still say that karsus will be the next Mystra. He was never evil, just insane and paranoid. Well. . . when the land you're ruling is turning into desert because of an ancient, powerful spellcasting race then you'd probably be a bit on the jumpy side too. :D Karsus just wasn't one for half measures, why deal with them one at a time when you can get them all in one go. :)
Karsus the Mad 06-21-07, 11:31 AM	-That was pretty funny when KtM enchanted those apples to bite back, eh? :D Just wait for the company midsummer party:plotting: Bonfire elemental.... ... Perhaps Karsus will rise as a chosen of Shar(the old Weave magic and such within him, and his demi-godhood, will no doubt be forgotten without explanation in such a case). Karsus risen again as a god would be much more interesting. Just imagine Mystra's reaction. I don't see Karsus ever willingly being a chosen of any deity. Tho' rising to divinity would be interesting and pose some game options that could be rather fun.
captaincarot 06-21-07, 11:44 AM	I have to question the wisdom of this course of action. it's a bit like nuclear warheads, no one ever stopped to wonder if we should once they'd worked out that they could. just because some thing is theoretically possible don't always mean you have to go and do it just to see what happens. especially as we know just what a mess he made of things last time. or if you really do insist on doing it at least wait untill i've got to a nice safe distance, preferably some where in the next universe should be about right.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-21-07, 12:34 PM	I have to question the wisdom of this course of action. it's a bit like nuclear warheads, no one ever stopped to wonder if we should once they'd worked out that they could. just because some thing is theoretically possible don't always mean you have to go and do it just to see what happens. especially as we know just what a mess he made of things last time. or if you really do insist on doing it at least wait untill i've got to a nice safe distance, preferably some where in the next universe should be about right. In the quest for power logical thought and reasoning generally gets throwin out the window. Greed is the reasoning for doing something when nothing else will suffice.
ShadezofDis 06-21-07, 12:45 PM	I have to question the wisdom of this course of action. The only thing I'd have to question is the motivation for that course of action. Perhaps thoughts of a "rebirth of Nethril" would suffice but I'm pretty sure that Karsus would take his time. (remember, when he cast the spell the first time he was in a tad bit of a rush, you know, trying to save the civilization he was a part of) it's a bit like nuclear warheads, no one ever stopped to wonder if we should once they'd worked out that they could. Ummm. . . not quite, there was a large body of people who questioned.
Lord Karsus 06-21-07, 06:38 PM	Just wait for the company midsummer party:plotting: Bonfire elemental.... -That sounds friggin' awesome! :D I don't see Karsus ever willingly being a chosen of any deity. -I don't either. The only thing I'd have to question is the motivation for that course of action. Perhaps thoughts of a "rebirth of Nethril" would suffice but I'm pretty sure that Karsus would take his time. (remember, when he cast the spell the first time he was in a tad bit of a rush, you know, trying to save the civilization he was a part of) -I always love it when people presume that if I/We were somehow brought back to life, I/We would try to rebuild Netheril. Between you, me, and the wall, there might be other places that have impressed Me/Us so much that we don't want to create another Netheril...:shifty:
Stigger 06-21-07, 09:37 PM	Cuz we all know that Karsus is going to say screw it all, move to Luiren, near the town of Shoun and just lounge on the beach eating pastries, fruit, cheese, and beer... ;)
Lord Karsus 06-21-07, 10:16 PM	-Eh, not exactly. I was actually thinking of moving to Calimshan, getting a nice harem...
XHereticX 06-21-07, 10:30 PM	Ahh Harems...the seven sisters, Lolth, Sune, Shar, a lot of hot anime chicks, etc...thats my Harem;) You had better provide the "entertainment" at this party Karsus., Brennon did a horrible job at the last one.
ShadezofDis 06-21-07, 10:39 PM	-I always love it when people presume that if I/We were somehow brought back to life, I/We would try to rebuild Netheril. Between you, me, and the wall, there might be other places that have impressed Me/Us so much that we don't want to create another Netheril...:shifty: Eh, only presumption I have and a weak one at that. I don't really see Karsus as a patriot of Netheril but more of a product of that society. I could certainly see Karsus building his nice little enclave and researching magic to his hearts content. What amuses me is when people assume that Karsus would go straight to stealing divinity again.
boards 06-22-07, 12:21 AM	I think Karsus' main problem was that he tried to steal Mystryl's port folio and divine spark, not her sentience. Without her knowledge he couldn't control the weave. When Mystryl commited suicide her sentience fell into a drooling farm girl, hence she still had the knowledge that Mystryl had. Midnight/Mystra not liking/understanding Mystryl's memories and thoughts does not mean that she can't access the knowledge, just that she doesn't like, or understand, the alien thoughts and emotions of a 70,000 (+-) year old being that was never human. Like Shade says, why would Karsus want to go for divinity again. His reason for doing so no longer exists. Just my :twocents:
Meldread 06-22-07, 12:30 AM	The question is not over whether Karsus would attempt to become divine. The question is if resurrected, WILL Karsus possess divinity? I believe he will. That hunk of rock in the Astral seems to sway in my favor. He was a deity upon death, and if resurrected, he would likely retain some form of divine power. Although the type of divine power he will possess is entirely up for debate.
souldnce9 06-22-07, 01:47 AM	boys! :nonono: I think I should start a Harem too. :rolleye2: A bunch of guys! If they disobey me............ eunuch!!!!!!! :ahem:
captaincarot 06-22-07, 02:09 AM	boys! :nonono: I think I should start a Harem too. :rolleye2: A bunch of guys! If they disobey me............ eunuch!!!!!!! :ahem: hmmm yet another power crazed wench :P
souldnce9 06-22-07, 02:27 AM	hmmm Yet another man incapable of understanding :P :D
captaincarot 06-22-07, 02:36 AM	now i didn't expect a reply so quickly there, it's a strange thing this time difference stuff, here's me started work at half 7, and you're still chilling out last night. think i jmihgt have to do some work before my brain goes all dribbly trying to come to terms with it.:eek:
souldnce9 06-22-07, 02:50 AM	Hee hee. :D
Zsych 06-22-07, 06:41 AM	@Brennon: Well, you did ask me to come back form time to time :) --- On Karsus. Karsus Avatar was cast mostly out of patriotism. Under current lore, it was a suicidal spell. In older lore, it was permanent godhood, but even so, he was pushed to it because he saw Netheril unravelling without Ioulaum, so it was again partly out of patriotism. ... and because of that patriotism, he should be interested in resurrecting Netheril and atoning for his mistake. -- As for Karsus' control of the Weave, he had only partially absorbed Mystryl's power so far. He was aware of everything in the Weave, he was a genius, he could most likely have handled it. He didn't exactly have much opportunity to do anything. Also, there's no reason to believe that what hit Mystra was somehow much better quality than what was coming to Karsus. I'm no believer in random accidents creating objects of great value. Its like throwing a computer off a 100 story building, and expecting the so damaged form to be a computer that works better than the one you dropped :) --- It would be interesting, if Karsus returned as a patron god of the Netherese(to start)... possibly also gaining more worship in Anaurach(if he plays his cards right, and shows young adventurous people the benefits of magic.. to make head-way into their communities).... while the elves rediscover the Nether Scrolls they stole and start studying them again(with that secret leaking out, and reaching Karsus' divine ears)
XHereticX 06-22-07, 08:49 AM	So Karsus was a Martyr. Hmm, but wasen't the divinity that Karsus seized from Mystryl transfered to that brainless farm girl instead, leaving Karsus with nothing. Well...a mere touch with divinity could have left Karsus at least a DVR 0.
Karsus the Mad 06-22-07, 08:55 AM	So Karsus was a Martyr. I wouldn't go that far. Being seen as a patriot is one thing, the reason for acting like a patriot is another. Of course he'd try to do everything possible to save his homeland. Afterall, without his homeland he has no base of support. It'd be about like me running into a burning building. Sure I'd do it to try to save my neighbors. They'd call me hero:D If ever asked why did I do it tho' I won't lie. Who else am I going to borrow tools from:confused:
The Ubbergeek 06-22-07, 02:01 PM	He was an accursed fool, full of hubris; he make the Babel Tower thing look like a mere irritation....
XHereticX 06-22-07, 02:03 PM	He was an accursed fool, full of hubris; he make the Babel Tower thing look like a mere irritation.... Argh, nothing stings me like Babel. Thanks to that moron who made it my parents force me to continue studying that accursed language called Chinese:mad:
BrennonGoldeye 06-22-07, 10:03 PM	boys! :nonono: I think I should start a Harem too. :rolleye2: A bunch of guys! If they disobey me............ eunuch!!!!!!! :ahem: O my. :bigeyes: *To the tune of Nanananabooboo*....Breeders are gonna get it.... -That was pretty funny when KtM enchanted those apples to bite back, eh? :D Mmmhmm, you're not the one with the scar under your lip. :mad: -Eh, not exactly. I was actually thinking of moving to Calimshan, getting a nice harem... Ready and waiting Mi'Lord.....:D Ahh Harems...the seven sisters, Lolth, Sune, Shar, a lot of hot anime chicks, etc...thats my Harem;) Watch your mouth bucko..... Your speaking of several guy's mamas..:mage:..:incog:.:fight!:. :angelhide . :gah: .:gel:.:bounce:Well....... ya get the point.... You had better provide the "entertainment" at this party Karsus., Brennon did a horrible job at the last one. Great, next party is at Admiral Entertainments house, I'll bring the dip...:dancin: hmmm yet another power crazed wench :P Keeping your fingers quiet keeps your carrot safe..;) He was an accursed fool, full of hubris; he make the Babel Tower thing look like a mere irritation.... .....*humming chorus of Blame Canada with fingertips in ears*.... Argh, nothing stings me like Babel. Thanks to that moron who made it my parents force me to continue studying that accursed language called Chinese:mad: Your parents are wise folk. I promise. Chinese? Mandarin? Ouch. :)
Lord Karsus 06-23-07, 12:29 AM	On Karsus. Karsus Avatar was cast mostly out of patriotism. Under current lore, it was a suicidal spell. In older lore, it was permanent godhood, but even so, he was pushed to it because he saw Netheril unravelling without Ioulaum, so it was again partly out of patriotism. ... and because of that patriotism, he should be interested in resurrecting Netheril and atoning for his mistake. -I wouldn't call it patriotism. I'd call it "Doing whatever needs to be done in order to secure your power base, and thus, your position in society". ;) It would be interesting, if Karsus returned as a patron god of the Netherese(to start)... possibly also gaining more worship in Anaurach(if he plays his cards right, and shows young adventurous people the benefits of magic.. to make head-way into their communities).... while the elves rediscover the Nether Scrolls they stole and start studying them again(with that secret leaking out, and reaching Karsus' divine ears) -Why would the Elves suddenly rediscover the Nether Scrolls, and start studying from them?
Zsych 06-23-07, 03:09 AM	@LK: When your patriotic act is almost guaranteed to kill you in the process, and you know it, then it can't be to solidify your power-base. Your power-base is no good to you when you're dead. Maybe he was hoping that he would be revered enough by the people of Netheril for his act that he would rise again as a god :P -- As for elves studying the Nether scrolls. Well, they did study the Nether scrolls when they were in Cormanthyr(the Srinshee having apparently spent the longest time on them)... plus the restoration of lost lore, forgotten high-magic, should definitely have appealed to them. ... With Myth Drannor back, its not unreasonable to assume that the greater mages will break out the Nether Scrolls again. ... and if, at the same time, Karsus was back, guiding the Netherese, and wanting the Nether Scrolls(but perhaps like most gods, not intervening directly), then that would make things interesting. -- @XHereticX: Well, Karsus died a demi-god. However, his soul was split into three pieces. One of them being in the karse-stone, that continuously leaks Heavy Magic of the old Mystryl's Weave kind. i.e. from the fully functional Weave. Thus, it isn't unreasonable to assume that part of the original Weave, and the original Mystryl(whose body the Weave was) was left inside Karsus, and the rest went to Mystra(who remade the Weave) ... possibly, just control of the rest went to Mystra. The body that was Mystryl's became Mystra's to control(sorta). <-- Possibly. Look at how with Mystra destroyed, Midnight now has all the same power(and even most of the knowledge) that Mystra previously wielded. If another soul took over the Weave, it would probably have similar abilities on hand. (kinda a question of whether or not you have administrative access to a computer)
Karsus the Mad 06-23-07, 10:46 AM	@LK: When your patriotic act is almost guaranteed to kill you in the process, and you know it, then it can't be to solidify your power-base. Your power-base is no good to you when you're dead. There was also that chance of surviving. Also, resurrection. And contingencies. I highly doubt Karsus, a 41st level arcanist, wasn't completely swathed in protective magics, contingencies, ability boosting magic, and so forth. Anyone casting detection magic would prolly have gone nuts:P Basically, dying typically isn't anything more than a minor annoyance at those levels. What made it unique was the way he died. I doubt he took that into account, given that he semi-died and all that without having (obvious) enchantments in place for such an event.
Zsych 06-23-07, 05:38 PM	I think that all of those defences that protect a human, wouldn't really work with a being transformed into a god, because its nature has been completely changed. In all likelihood, he knew that once he became a god, all his current defences were screwed, he had not developed any way to resurrect a dead-god, and if he died in that form... that would be it. (in the original version of course, it was a permanent spell, granting permanent godhood, and not killing the user... change in the nature of the spell, changes the motivation behind it)
Lord Karsus 06-23-07, 06:16 PM	@LK: When your patriotic act is almost guaranteed to kill you in the process, and you know it, then it can't be to solidify your power-base. Your power-base is no good to you when you're dead. Maybe he was hoping that he would be revered enough by the people of Netheril for his act that he would rise again as a god :P -One thing you can't confuse is "in-game" knowledge with "out-of-game" knowledge. Yes, the write-up for Karsus' Avatar says that it is of limited duration, and that the caster dies at the end. Though I/We did develop the spell, who's to say that I/We knew about that little part about dying. My mind is foggy about that period of time. My point is, Karsus might not have known that the spell would end in death- and Mystryl doing what she did was certainly unexpected. -I/We would not have wanted to be a deity. ... With Myth Drannor back, its not unreasonable to assume that the greater mages will break out the Nether Scrolls again. -Myth Drannor still has a long ways to go. There's five years until it finally has an actual ruler (DR 1380). We still have no clue about the progress of the "clean up" at that point, or beyond.
XHereticX 06-23-07, 07:02 PM	Hey, I just had a new thought. Maybe you can draw your magic from the Karsestone...Or the Karsestone itself has a portion of divinity inside it...
BrennonGoldeye 06-23-07, 09:17 PM	... With Myth Drannor back, its not unreasonable to assume that the greater mages will break out the Nether Scrolls again. -Myth Drannor still has a long ways to go. There's five years until it finally has an actual ruler (DR 1380). We still have no clue about the progress of the "clean up" at that point, or beyond. I agree. Breaking out the Ol'Golden Birch seems quite premature, especially taking into account the elves millennia old attitude toward the Scrolls, the word "again" doesn't apply. They hid them the first time. :)
Karsus the Mad 06-23-07, 10:02 PM	I think that all of those defences that protect a human, wouldn't really work with a being transformed into a god, because its nature has been completely changed. In all likelihood, he knew that once he became a god, all his current defences were screwed, he had not developed any way to resurrect a dead-god, and if he died in that form... that would be it. (in the original version of course, it was a permanent spell, granting permanent godhood, and not killing the user... change in the nature of the spell, changes the motivation behind it) The spell was never permanent. That was a typo in NEoM.
Zsych 06-24-07, 04:09 AM	Karsus was transformed into a god. Any trouble in the game would've led to his death as a god. (though its possible that he intended to undo the transformation of himself into a god(.. that he died a demigod, means that he was to a certain degree divine)) It has been clearly stated(somewhere), that Karsus knew that the spell would probably kill him. Personally, if I had no patriotic tendencies in his position, I wouldn't have bothered heading for KA, if I even thought that there was a 5% chance that I would be permanently(<-- notice this word) screwed as a result.
Lord Karsus 06-25-07, 09:11 AM	Personally, if I had no patriotic tendencies in his position, I wouldn't have bothered heading for KA, if I even thought that there was a 5% chance that I would be permanently(<-- notice this word) screwed as a result. -What would you have done, then? Sat around until the Phaerimm destroyed Netheril, and stripped you of everything that empowered you? Waited until there were riots, and Netheril came apart at the seams? Waited until a rival arcanist dropped you for good? Again, there was no way for Karsus to know that he would have not been able to deal with the Weave, and that Mystry would pull the plus to the spell, by ending her existence.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-25-07, 12:30 PM	Karsus likely didn't know his spell would kill him. He probably thought even if his spell destroyed his physical body his soul would survive leaving him all the power of Mystra, maybe even giving him a new physical form. Instead he basically got hit with a triple imprisonment spell as his soul was ripped into three pieces.
Karsus the Mad 06-25-07, 07:38 PM	-What would you have done, then? Sat around until the Phaerimm destroyed Netheril, and stripped you of everything that empowered you? Waited until there were riots, and Netheril came apart at the seams? Waited until a rival arcanist dropped you for good? Again, there was no way for Karsus to know that he would have not been able to deal with the Weave, and that Mystry would pull the plus to the spell, by ending her existence. Ditto, but you seem more emotional about it:)
BrennonGoldeye 06-25-07, 07:54 PM	-What would you have done, then? Ah, now there's the rub. I would have picked a different Diety. But that is hindsight. K went after what He knew best, and He was never one for half-measures. That was an integral part of being Karsus. Brass ones doesn't even begin to describe it.;)
Mordakay of Thay 06-25-07, 08:20 PM	Look,he could of went for another diety,but magic was his life,and he ofc wen't for Mystra.He was the most powerful archwizard in Faerun,i'm pretty sure he knew the risks involved,or at least suspected some.So he went for it.At least he became a legend ;).
Lord Karsus 06-26-07, 12:48 AM	Ditto, but you seem more emotional about it:) -Aye. I would have picked a different Diety. But that is hindsight. -No other deities would have "fit the bill" for doing what needed to be done. The Netherese and the Phaerimm were fighting a magical war. Would usurping Kozah, the warrior deity, really done much? Eh, I don't think so. Would usurping Shar, or Selûne have done much? Perhaps, since the Shadow Weave did exist then, but because it was retconned in, it didn't exist at the time everything was concieved, written and published. Mystryl was the only deity who could have done what was needing to be done- strip the Phaerimm of their magic, or some such. At least he became a legend ;). -Only a legend? ;)
Alediran 06-26-07, 08:34 AM	-Only a legend? ;) And pieces of rock
Karsus the Mad 06-26-07, 07:27 PM	And pieces of rock Ahem:waits: ...Very pretty pieces of rock.
Zsych 06-26-07, 08:01 PM	What would I have done in Karsus' position? Not being desperate to save Netheril? Moved my enclave to a safe place, suggested that the other arcanists do the same, and put more funding and time into research :) ... and then when I became a god(which would always be an objective), I would do so in a way I knew to be stable. Better yet, I'd aim to become something far greater than any god(that I knew of) Karsus was no bum, you can't create something very complex without understanding it. He knew the risks, in his spell, going in(he just didn't know that the diety of magic was so tightly bound to the Weave, since the magic probably worked in a similar fashion on Toril as on other worlds, and he had no reason to believe that Toril's crystal sphere was defective). ... Leaving Toril... would also have been a good option(albeit one that goes against pride... still, if I had no other reasonably safe options, I would go for that... intending unspeakable destruction for my enemies when I returned(probably to find the human race exterminated by the Phaerimm))
XHereticX 06-26-07, 08:10 PM	Karsus just did what in his pretty much illogical mind at the time, seemed logical.;)
BrennonGoldeye 06-26-07, 08:13 PM	-No other deities would have "fit the bill" for doing what needed to be done. The Netherese and the Phaerimm were fighting a magical war. Would usurping Kozah, the warrior deity, really done much? Eh, I don't think so. Would usurping Shar, or Selûne have done much? Perhaps, since the Shadow Weave did exist then, but because it was retconned in, it didn't exist at the time everything was concieved, written and published. Mystryl was the only deity who could have done what was needing to be done- strip the Phaerimm of their magic, or some such. I was thinking more along the line of Istishia, retrieving Myself, turn-about and all. Ahh, dessication. :D As I said though, that is all hindsight. His act wasn't malicious. It was brilliant, and brilliance has the amazing property of outshining itself in failure. ;) Ahem:waits: ...Very pretty pieces of rock. Yes, very pretty. Alediran.. Rock Duty.
Zsych 06-26-07, 08:19 PM	@XHereticX: Until Ioulaum left and destablized Netheril, Karsus hadn't actually decided to go for his desperate gamble to save his people. Mystryl's action was much more crazy and world destroying (luckily for Toril, her idiocy did not have the chance to bear its natural fruit)
XHereticX 06-26-07, 08:29 PM	@XHereticX: Until Ioulaum left and destablized Netheril, Karsus hadn't actually decided to go for his desperate gamble to save his people. Mystryl's action was much more crazy and world destroying (luckily for Toril, her idiocy did not have the chance to bear its natural fruit) Well yeah, Iounum was the brightest and most experienced mind in High Netheril. Karsus, while mad powerful at a tender age (which is often a bad omen), did not have the experience nor the mental finaisse to contend with such a problem. Its like having a power-mad baby and a powerful old wizard, they are both powerful, but differ in what we call "real-world experience." I am not suprised Karsus took what seemed like the easiest and flashiest way out.
BrennonGoldeye 06-26-07, 09:05 PM	Mystryl's action was much more crazy and world destroying (luckily for Toril, her idiocy did not have the chance to bear its natural fruit) Ahh, that's what I missed. I haven't heard that blah,blah,blah in quite a bit. What, in your best guestimation would have been a better choice? LK brought it up. I agree. Should She have let K continue to blast the uncontrolled power of Majik, not the paltry Weave, freely across Faerun. Brazing all of Chauntea to a nice crispy brown? Hmm? C'mon Zsych, I know you can't resist. For old times sake?;) Well yeah, Iounum(:uh-huh:) was the brightest and most experienced mind in High Netheril. And still around(at 4689yrs old), you forgot still around. Kinda...:coolcthul Karsus, while mad powerful at a tender age (which is often a bad omen), did not have the experience nor the mental finaisse to contend with such a problem. Its like having a power-mad baby and a powerful old wizard, they are both powerful, but differ in what we call "real-world experience." While I admit Karsus was a babe compared to Ioulaum, so is Tyr(at least the Realmsian version). Ioulaum was 2976 years old when he abandoned Xinlenal. At that point Karsus had only been around for a paltry 357 years. Just a babe that had 69 years of playing around with Heavy Magic under his diaper belt. :mage: I am not suprised Karsus took what seemed like the easiest and flashiest way out. And that gives Alediran a buddy on Rock Duty. :)
Zsych 06-26-07, 09:09 PM	Karsus was a good 300+ years old. Much less a child than anyone in our world. He was also very knowledgeable, and had lived in Netheril, seeing its problems and its enemies for centuries. Seen that his country was slowly losing to the Phaerimm, who attacked like guerilla fighters, from the shadows, only when it was safe, and then went back into hiding where no one could easily find them. The once lush lands of lower Netheril had been turned into a desert, and many people killed by the magic of the Phaerimm. Even Archwizards had died from attacks by the Phaerimm, and from the increasing failure of their spells(like what granted their longevity) thanks to the Phaerimm. The culture, the essence of Netheril, Karsus' own people was in jeopardy, and Ioulaum leaving had further sent Netheril into a panic. The situation was probably getting hopeless with no end in sight for the war with the Phaerimm. Something big had to be done, to save Netheril, and Karsus used the most powerful tools he had on hand to do it. Using a spell that would temporarily grant him great power, enough to defeat the Phaerimm, even if it would likely cost him his life, and he chose to do it. (going out with a bang probably didn't look too bad, but I doubt it was an easy choice either. If he'd been selfish, he could've just run away, like some other Archwizards were doing) ... and also Karsus spell itself was fine, and would have succeeded, if Mystryl hadn't taken a decision that to the best of her knowledge, was going to doom the Netherese and everyone else on Toril(more slowly than the Netherese of course :)) --- In hind-sight, Karsus could've used a less powerful diety(like Shar), but he wanted max surety, and he went after Mystryl. --- Accidents, and unexpected problems happen. If, as some scientists expected, the test of the nuclear bomb had caused the sky to catch on fire... whoops... -------------------- @Brennon: Better to wait out the storm than kill yourself in fear of it :) Mystryl should have relaxed and waited, rather than taking a path that she would have known to guarantee much greater disaster than what Karsus was causing(even if it was a few years down the line... its not like you could really expect some diety to casually recreate the Weave(almost a matter of recreating Mystryl, a greater god than most of them, by yourself... Shar should be respected for her accomplishment, though she would likely not help save Toril if it were her choice, and who knows how long it took even her :)) As I've said before, I doubt she was really thinking of anyone when she took the decision to commit suicide.... Humans and elves at least must've been like ants to her, or maybe like cute little cats at best. Most people in our world, who commit suicide, aren't doing it for any sensible reason. They do it because they, thinking emotionally, misinterpret their situation in the world, don't know the purpose of pain, and thus trying to run away from the pain, make a decision that contradicts the most basic objectives of any life form... to stay alive. ... Seriously, whats the worst that could have happened? A few places in the Weave with heavy magic use, not being repaired, would have broken and ended up wild or dead magic zones. .. And Karsus was going to kill just the Phaerimm(less extreme than Mystryl by her own actions, choosing to kill them(from the loss of magic) and the world along with them). --- Actually Brennon my friend, part of the problem here is that many of us are used to thinking on the basis of old lore. And in the old/incorrect lore, Mystryl to the best of everyone's knowledge, died to save the world, and Karsus had done something very extreme that ended in disaster. The more detailed version of the situation(by Ed), paints a picture different from the old one. If Mystryl made a decision that to the best of her knowledge would have forever destroyed the Weave(and we know, through that.. Toril), then it was obviously a bad decision, as far as Mystryl herself was concerned, whether or not the results can be considered good, since the results are actually seperate from Mystryl's own thoughts and actions.
BrennonGoldeye 06-26-07, 09:28 PM	@Brennon: Better to wait out the storm than kill yourself in fear of it Mystryl should have relaxed and waited, rather than taking a path that she would have known to guarantee much greater disaster than what Karsus was causing(even if it was a few years down the line... its not like you could really expect some diety to casually recreate the Weave(almost a matter of recreating Mystryl, a greater god than most of them, by yourself... Shar should be respected for her accomplishment, though she would likely not help save Toril if it were her choice, and who knows how long it took even her See, the only problem with this is the history of the Realms proves just the opposite. The total destruction of every civilization built upon magic would have been just a tad worse than what happened. Just a trillion ton weighing tad. Her choice saved what was left of the magical civilizations upon a magical world. 2 minutes is just about that tad different than a couple years, don't you agree? Actually my friend, part of the problem here is that many of us are used to thinking on the basis of old lore. And in the old lore, Mystryl to the best of everyone's knowledge, died to save the world, and Karsus had done something very extreme that ended in disaster. The more detailed version of the situation(by Ed), paints a picture different from the old one. Maybe it's one of those 3D images that you have to stare at just right. Focus just past the page...;)
XHereticX 06-26-07, 09:38 PM	See, the only problem with this is the history of the Realms proves just the opposite. The total destruction of every civilization built upon magic would have been just a tad worse than what happened. Just a trillion ton weighing tad. Her choice saved what was left of the magical civilizations upon a magical world. 2 minutes is just about that tad different than a couple years, don't you agree? Maybe it's one of those 3D images that you have to stare at just right. Focus just past the page...;) And what will you see? Fluffy pink bunnies? Anyway, logic works quite illogically in a high-powered world where a old man throwing little lights into the sky is physically more realistic than the laws of physics.;)
Zsych 06-26-07, 09:45 PM	@Brennon: The consequences of her actions are irrelevant to her choices, because she did not figure them into her choices. To see the actual consequences of her choices, you should assume that the completely unanticipated(by Mystryl) presence of that retarded farm girl Mystra, being there to take in Mystryl's divinity, did not occur. Mystryl's divinity did not go to anyone, the Weave stayed dead. The Phaerimm and Netheril died almost immediately. Magical cultures also soon died, and then whatever dependence Toril has on Weave Magic(that I don't personally know the details of, so I'll trust Ed), causes Toril itself to die when Weave Magic is removed... don't know how much later. ---- Think of it like this: A plane is crashing towards a building, with no real chance of it being saved. At the same time, a terrorist fires a very powerful rocket at the building, hoping to kill people. As it happens, everyone is out on a picnic so there's no one there, and the rocket destroys the building(in 9/11 fashion, the building crumbles downwards), allowing the airplane to pass through that area, and crash land, saving all lives on board. The rocket fired by the terrorist is indeed responsible for the airplane being saved, but that is not what he/she knowingly intends, and on any other day than that specific one, the building being destroyed would kill a lot of people, and not actually end up saving lives. --- Except for some extremely bizarre luck, Mystryl's decision was actually a disaster in the making. (personally, I, like some others, bet on Ao having planted Mystra there, though with Ed not mentioning it, perhaps it was just pure blind luck)
BrennonGoldeye 06-26-07, 09:47 PM	Anyway, logic works quite illogically in a high-powered world where a old man throwing little lights into the sky is physically more realistic than the laws of physics.;) It is, just ask Dan.;) Besides, Physics has very little to do with realism. At least what appears to be physical realism. Or at least what realistically appears to be physical realism... as I said, just ask Dan. He's got verbs galore. :D
XHereticX 06-26-07, 09:50 PM	@Brennon: The consequences of her actions are irrelevant to her choices, because she did not figure them into her choices. To see the actual consequences of her choices, you should assume that the completely unanticipated(by Mystryl) presence of that retarded farm girl Mystra, being there to take in Mystryl's divinity, did not occur. Mystryl's divinity did not go to anyone, the Weave stayed dead. The Phaerimm and Netheril died almost immediately. Magical cultures also soon died, and then whatever dependence Toril has on Weave Magic(that I don't personally know the details of, so I'll trust Ed), causes Toril itself to die when Weave Magic is removed... don't know how much later. ---- Think of it like this: A plane is crashing towards a building, with no real chance of it being saved. At the same time, a terrorist fires a very powerful rocket at the building, hoping to kill people. As it happens, everyone is out on a picnic so there's no one there, and the rocket destroys the building(in 9/11 fashion, the building crumbles downwards), allowing the airplane to pass through that area, and crash land, saving all lives on board. The rocket fired by the terrorist is indeed responsible for the airplane being saved, but that is not what he/she knowingly intends, and on any other day than that specific one, the building being destroyed would kill a lot of people, and not actually end up saving lives. --- Except for some extremely bizarre luck, Mystryl's decision was actually a disaster in the making. (personally, I, like some others, bet on Ao having planted Mystra there, though with Ed not mentioning it, perhaps it was just pure blind luck) Morally you may argue that. But a higher being like Mystryl would obviously think about the stability of the weave she was empowered to guard over the lives of a few thousand mortals. Sickening from human standpoints yes, yet for a deity where portfolios and portfolios only come first, it is the perfectly logical decision.
XHereticX 06-26-07, 10:07 PM	It is, just ask Dan.;) True, physics in reality has as much circumstantial evidence as the worship of celtic pig goddesses. Its just this cult has been "scientifically certified" by a bunch of old German men with PhDs.
Zsych 06-26-07, 10:07 PM	Mystryl was not given responsibility over the Weave. She was the Weave. Also, she was born as an accident in a magical fight between Shar and Selune. Old she may have been, but you can't decently bet on her having had any great sense when she was, as I said, an accident. Throw some amino acids and other stuff on the floor and radiate them, and if life is formed, you shouldn't expect too much from it. --- Mystryl was effectively destroying her portfolio(part of it anyway) with her actions. But I agree that as a being of a different level, she had no responsibility to humans or any other mortal creature. She made her choice, as we all make ours, doing what at the time, in that split-second decision, she thought was right. As anyone who commits suicide believes that they should be doing it, for whatever stupid reason. Maybe if she had taken time to think it over, she would've chosen to do something else. (might well have been the first time she was being hurt, and so she overreacted) Honestly, I wonder how I would react, if I had lived a hundred years, never experiencing pain, and now suddenly felt severe pain. Would I fully understand what it was? Would I quickly realize how exactly I should adapt/react to it, or would I do something crazy?
BrennonGoldeye 06-26-07, 10:20 PM	Zsych. 1. Did Mystryl know that She would be put in the situation. No. This flies in the face of stated rule Canon for Greater Dieties, but it's Ed so we will go with it. I still think They(M&K) had a secret thing going but that is neither here nor there.;) 2. Did Mystryl have a set up plan to be enacted upon Her demise? No, apparently not. 3. Did Mystryl plan on Her spirit being drawn to a "mindless" girl? Nope. Now lets look at a few assumptions... @Brennon: The consequences of her actions are irrelevant to her choices, because she did not figure them into her choices. Ummhmm. That Greater Deity thing made Her way too loopy to think about consequences. It's luck again isn't it. :thumbsup: To see the actual consequences of her choices, you should assume that the completely unanticipated(by Mystryl) presence of that retarded farm girl Mystra, being there to take in Mystryl's divinity, did not occur. See, I take actual to mean what actually happened. The actual consequences. What you are talking about is what would have happened if the entirety of the story was made up of quotes from Candlekeep. Greater Deity? Anyone? I'm sure the Sage and All would be happy to know that since nobody ever said that Storm used the lou she doesn't have a digestive tract. Now that is one heck of a template!:P Mystryl's divinity did not go to anyone, the Weave stayed dead. The Phaerimm and Netheril died almost immediately. Of course! That's what She thought would happen. A God dying! Surely no God have ever died before? What on:globe:would be the dire consequences! Please. This was before the whole "farmgirl" fiasco. :rolleyes: Oh boy, it's just like the good ole days...mm, 2005.....
XHereticX 06-26-07, 10:23 PM	Zsych, whatever a deity does it is for the greater benefit of their portfolios and what they stand for. If she had acted inappropratly in any way defiling her position as such, she would have been put on trial at Cynosure and stripped of her divinity and a replacement would have been found. As for humans knowing what is better for a deity's portfolio than the deity herself, where did you get such a absurd notion? The deity IS following ITS proper morals if it upholds its portfolios, that is a fact.
Zsych 06-26-07, 10:32 PM	lol I assume that Karsus had used some undocumented spell to blind Mystryl's portfolio senses. Mystryl wasn't really a regular god. Her relationship to the Weave was unique, her being the Weave, was unique(on no other world is the Weave as it is on Toril, on no other world(that I know of) does the goddess of magic have the ability to cripple all the other gods if she wants to(which is what would happen to the other gods on Toril with her dead). And if Ed says she didn't know her powers had any chance of going to someone else, who are we to argue? :P I doubt the portfolios of all gods move to other gods. Countless gods were born and died during Shar and Selune's war. What portfolios did they have? Were they passed on every time, or did they just dissipate into nothing without a new caretaker? -- It was possible that things would be alright somehow, its just not a somehow that Mystryl could have bet on, while making her decisions. I say that the Toril-ean gods(created by Ed) aren't necessarily gods as we perceive from the term 'god'. If Ao had grafted a hamster's intellect onto Mystra's instead of Midnight's. I doubt anyone could have stopped him, and the result would still have been a greater god. --- or, in our Computer science lingo, You could have a super computer, and still run (something like) DOS on it :P --- @XHereticX: I like your faith in dieties. .. and you can't be put on trial if you're dead :P (not to mention that you'd need a greater power, like several other gods, or Ao, instantaneously noticing that something had happened, and choosing to do something about it... like they eventually did with Midnight) Ed created D&D and its gods. They don't have to conform to some standard norm. Mystryl chose to destroy herself, the Weave, and thus part of her portfolio. (Perhaps a greater power than herself made sure that her decision did not have unfortunate consequences) --- 2+2=4 under base 10, if a human says so(under the current common interpretation of those symbols), and even if a god disagrees :) Just the fact that there can be a trial implies that a god is completely capable of going against his/her portfolio.
XHereticX 06-26-07, 10:45 PM	No, the deities aren't perfect beings. Mr. Greenwood styled them after the very imperfect and petty Greek and Norse gods. They are flawed, killable beings that have as poor judgement as humans, sometimes worse as the taint of power gets to their heads. What I am trying to say however, is that a deity, no matter how stupid, petty, and insignificant, HAS to uphold their portfolio. The actions of a deity obviously have to reflect the responsibilites of the portfolio or the deity will be put on trial in a second. Just look at Cyric. There is a difference between deific insanity and abusing one's position in the pantheon. As for Mystryl, she did what was necessary to save the weave with as minimal damage as possible (I never said none, I said minimal). The alternative is to allow Karsus to tear the weave to shreds with his newfound powers and inability to control them. She died thus, and her power was passed on to the first random being enchountered in order to restore order to the weave as soon as possible. I am not saying Mystryl's decisions were perfect and didn't have flaws, I am saying she performed the most logical and reasonable action at the time to at least keep the weave alive in as good condition as possible. Mystryl's very flaws was the reason the second Guardian of the Weave took a far more lawful stance on the weave to prevent catastrophies as such from occuring again. Tell me, when a guy is coming at you with a knife and you have 2 seconds to act before you die, do you really have time to THINK of a FULLPROOF plan?
Zsych 06-26-07, 11:12 PM	Its amazing that Mystryl made a good decision, without even knowing herself that she was making a good decision. And Midnight must've been upholding her portfolio when she was limiting magic everywhere, and Kelemvor must've been doing well when his decisions led to people choosing to die rather than live. --- The main point my friend is that what Mystryl personally did was illogical, and when we know that a poor retard could run the Weave after getting a little used to it, we shouldn't really expect Karsus to not have been able to run it in around the same time as Mystra(if not faster). Probably, after Karsus had taken control of it, he wouldn't have taken as long to fix the problems as Mystra I did(which is to say that the problems from that time, still hadn't been fixed... the sad wonders of low intelligence) -- Mystryl may have been a goddess, but in her own way, she was also a person, and the actual decision she made, to the best of her knowledge, was a bad one. (unless her subconscious knew, what her conscious did not). I personally think that stats over-simplify a world. Shouldn't just say that X god has such and such portfolio, and that is all there is to them. The Weave wasn't just something that Mystryl was custodian of. She had power over the Weave, because she was the Weave, it was her body, not due to some external framework that gives gods various responsibilities. Midnight on the other hand, I think might actually be considered as having been granted the portfolio of the Weave, to some degree.
boards 06-27-07, 03:53 AM	Would Mystryl not presume that in the event of her death, she would either be reincarnated or her portfolio passed on to another god? I her time she would have seen the Sarukh god Merrshaulk die and be reincarnated as Seth, and Ra killed and his portfolio be passed on to Horus. Why would she not expect the same?
Zsych 06-27-07, 04:07 AM	Because Ed says so? :P *just heard KtM groan LOL* I don't think the god resurrection is an automatic thing. Sure the other gods would be after Mystryl's portfolio like wolves, but again, magic through the Weave wasn't really just a portfolio that could be casually passed on. She herself was the Weave. Its not like there had been a Weave Magic portfolio before Mystryl came along. Again, if Mystryl's divine spark hadn't fallen on Mystra... it could've dissipated, it could've gone to someone even worse than she thought Karsus to be. (it could conceivably have gone to a toad :P) And of course, just look at what happened in the little time that magic was down. Most of the Phaerimm expired, Netheril fell. Who knows what not else happened. I also recall Ed saying that it was luck that Mystryl's spark did remain coherent(a side effect of the spell, and the general circumstances... maybe the part that fell to Mystra was the part that had been headed for Karsus). The basic fact is that Mystryl herself did not have any expectation that magic would survive her death(and even a significant change in it could likely doom Toril, since it would no longer be the magic it desperately needs to survive). Unlike Mystra, Mystryl had no backups. So the people of Toril were lucky that Mystryl's divinity didn't dissipate or get split between various gods or whatever(likely breaking the Weave to pieces, if it even survived), and ended up hitting Mystra. .. I wish, it had hit me instead :P
captaincarot 06-27-07, 04:54 AM	True, physics in reality has as much circumstantial evidence as the worship of celtic pig goddesses. Its just this cult has been "scientifically certified" by a bunch of old German men with PhDs. what ever gave you that impression, there is a mass of evidence pointing to it being correct, experimentally verified evidence at that, rather than something some one made up a few thousand years ago and wrote in a book. physics is constructed around observed facts and tested principals. it only puts a concept into it's consideration if it can generate a test to verify the concept.
Zsych 06-27-07, 05:01 AM	And yet, how can you prove that what your senses tell you is true and not just some simulation like the Matrix? LOL. How can you prove, when memory is your only tool that yesterday existed? Just because your memories say so, and things seem to be a progression from your memories? What if the universe only came into being yesterday, in a state that makes it seem that it has existed longer, and with you having memories of such? LOL ^ Fun questions. --- btw, whatever happened to resurrecting Karsus? Asmodeus acts to absorb the essence of Karsus(for the obvious benefits), and then becomes more personally interested in the world of Toril(as Karsus' mind slowly begins to take his over)..... LOL.
XHereticX 06-27-07, 08:07 AM	Exactly, for all these questions about the unknown and the unseeable, there is absolutly no circumstantial evidence. We just label it as such, does not mean it is absolute. Physics has abosolutly nothing that points out that its theories are correct. Physics mearly just points out what theoretically would be the most logical explanation for the natural actions of the mutiverse. Still, it is just educated classification and guesswork at best. Combining Asmodeus and Karsus into one being is one of my greatest goals...;)
boards 06-27-07, 08:14 AM	I know that AO wasnt a part of Ed's realms, but surely he would make sure that any god who gained the portfolio of magic retained the rules that kept the world from blowing up. It just seems rather thick that a goddess of a fundamental force of Toril wouldnt assume that AO would make certain that said force would remain, when other gods have died and their portfolios have survived. Maybe I am not egotisitcal enough, but if I knew for sure that an overgod existed who's made it his buisness to ensure the world doesnt fall out of balance, I wouldnt believe my death was going to end magic.:rolleyes: :P
Alediran 06-27-07, 09:09 AM	I preffer Tree Duty myself.
Mordakay of Thay 06-27-07, 09:49 AM	Karsus, while mad powerful at a tender age (which is often a bad omen), did not have the experience nor the mental finaisse to contend with such a problem. Its like having a power-mad baby and a powerful old wizard, they are both powerful, but differ in what we call "real-world experience." I am not suprised Karsus took what seemed like the easiest and flashiest way out. Uhm,he was 357 old,and the most powerfull arcanist in that time,and you're saying he didn't have experience or mental finesse.Seriously,i don't think you could acuse him of something like that lol,it just doesn't make sense :).
XHereticX 06-27-07, 09:54 AM	Uhm,he was 357 old,and the most powerfull arcanist in that time,and you're saying he didn't have experience or mental finesse.Seriously,i don't think you could acuse him of something like that lol,it just doesn't make sense :). Karsus just never really seemed like the experienced problem solver to me. Power came to him as easily as moths to the flame, he was mad with power and lacked a consiterble amount of common sense.
captaincarot 06-27-07, 10:40 AM	Karsus just never really seemed like the experienced problem solver to me. Power came to him as easily as moths to the flame, he was mad with power and lacked a consiterble amount of common sense. oooh now that's a novelty something we agree on!
XHereticX 06-27-07, 10:44 AM	oooh now that's a novelty something we agree on! Hmm, excellent mortal dwarf, maybe you would like to be my servant...:devil:
Zsych 06-27-07, 06:41 PM	Having power earlier would have quickly put Karsus against people who were already strong, and he would be facing the game at a much higher level. A level he nevertheless survived to grow even stronger. 300+ years is plenty of time to experience life and different types of problems. And just having much higher intelligence, seeing more deeply so that he could become an archmage quicker, would also to a certain degree have applied to other stuff. Someone with a high IQ, actually does understand lots of things, even if they aren't in their immediate area of interest(some things of course, geniuses consider too unimportant to bother thinking about at all :))
BrennonGoldeye 06-27-07, 09:54 PM	I preffer Tree Duty myself. I'm sure you do. Oh well.:) Hmm, excellent mortal dwarf, maybe you would like to be my servant...:devil: No sub-contracts without prior approval. Give him the 3rd Eye Test and report the results. :) ;)
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 06:16 PM	@XHereticX: Until Ioulaum left and destablized Netheril, Karsus hadn't actually decided to go for his desperate gamble to save his people. -Note, though, that I/We was/were developing the spell. Had Ioulaum never left, the spell would have been cast, eventually. In hind-sight, Karsus could've used a less powerful diety(like Shar), but he wanted max surety, and he went after Mystryl. -That wouldn't have accomplished what I/We were seeking. And, remember, the Shadow Weave didn't exist at that time (Though, it did ;) ) Throw some amino acids and other stuff on the floor and radiate them, and if life is formed, you shouldn't expect too much from it. -Eh, I don't think deities have DNA. But, who knows? ;) lolI assume that Karsus had used some undocumented spell to blind Mystryl's portfolio senses. -The Masked One developed a hypothesis where this was the case. I doubt the portfolios of all gods move to other gods. -There are plenty of unclaimed portfolios. I have a rather long list of them. Countless gods were born and died during Shar and Selune's war. -The creation mythos states just what deities were created during Shar and Selûne's mythical conflict. And yet, how can you prove that what your senses tell you is true and not just some simulation like the Matrix? -Because G-d exists, and G-d is not a great deciever. Therefore, G-d would not create a false world that our senses mispercieve. :P -By the way, Brennon, you get a 10% raise! :D
XHereticX 06-28-07, 07:42 PM	You put too much trust in G-d, not a wise move on your part Master. Ahh, I will begin administrating the third-eye test immediatly, after you tell me how it works...
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 09:42 PM	You put too much trust in G-d, not a wise move on your part Master. -That's how you counter ZSych's Cartesian query. How do we know that our senses do not always lie? Because G-d is not a deciever. I'll admit, Descarte's logic is very shaky.
Karsus the Mad 06-28-07, 09:48 PM	-That's how you counter ZSych's cartesian query. Or a simple cantrip. -There are plenty of unclaimed portfolios. I have a rather long list of them. Two previously established portfolios that haven't been claimed are Energy and Time......weird. -Note, though, that I/We was/were developing the spell. Had Ioulaum never left, the spell would have been cast, eventually. Very good chance. Also, with such a drastic difference in the scenario, it's likely the target would have been different as well. Perhaps a more militant diety? Mayhaps Jergal even?
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 09:58 PM	Or a simple cantrip. -Yes, Purify Food and Drink. Two previously established portfolios that haven't been claimed are Energy and Time......weird. -Well, it's, you know, because those two portfolios aren't important. Time? Who needs time? Energy? Bah...:) Very good chance. Also, with such a drastic difference in the scenario, it's likely the target would have been different as well. Perhaps a more militant diety? Mayhaps Jergal even? -A good choice. Having power over life and death is a useful thing when fighting a war that would likely result in the genocide of one side or the other.
boards 06-29-07, 12:03 AM	-The Masked One developed a hypothesis where this was the case. Heres a thought. The gods exist in a different reality to humans and time has strange effects around them, with there actions causing ripples to go forwards and backwards in time. After sacraficing herself she fell into a mentally retarded, drooling girl, but those ripples meant that the deficient mind was in control during Karsus' big mistake, so that she couldnt sense a threat to her portfolio:P . The drool of course became the heavy magic that Karsus was playing with:D :pbbbtt:
Zsych 06-29-07, 02:25 AM	Ahh... LK my friend, it has been a while :) -Note, though, that I/We was/were developing the spell. Had Ioulaum never left, the spell would have been cast, eventually. He was researching paths to godhood and other forms of great power(like any Netherese). With things turning ugly he chose to take his research into the direction of stealing a god's power(although that might also just have been a point of personal interest... something developed to test theories with regards to what gods are). He obviously was at the point in his research where he understood gods well enough to steal one's power, but not at the point where he could turn himself into the ultimate god directly with his magic. ... If Karsus had time, he wouldn't have needed to use KA. He would have extended his research and eventually come up with a method that was stable and not likely to get him killed(seriously even a 5% chance that it will kill you, is an unnecessary risk, when you have plenty of time ahead) -That wouldn't have accomplished what I/We were seeking. And, remember, the Shadow Weave didn't exist at that time (Though, it did ;) ) Unless someone stops her, Shar can exterminate the Phaerimm just fine. The SW is not necessary, and Karsus didn't know about Ao and restrictions on gods. -Eh, I don't think deities have DNA. But, who knows? ;) The point is that the word god is a generalization. Like the word animal is a generalization. -The creation mythos states just what deities were created during Shar and Selûne's mythical conflict. Many gods were born, many died. Their names forgotten by mortals(assuming they were ever known by mortals to begin with :)) -Because G-d exists, and G-d is not a great deciever. Therefore, G-d would not create a false world that our senses mispercieve. :P Very presumptuous PoV. That a being with infinite power(aka the power to create), actually cares about insignificant beings like humans. Just shows how over-proud humans are :) And why do you think you are important enough that deceiving you would actually be something important enough that god would bother feeling bad about it? The views of a creation(and one random creation among countless others) likely won't matter to the creator :) And who says that humans are first-tier creation. We could be 2nd+ tier creation, created by imperfect gods(who themselves were created by the ultimate God), for their amusement, or just as an experiment :P Who says that the humans' creator actually felt the need to create a universe for humans, instead of just putting them in a sim? :D
Lord Karsus 06-29-07, 06:00 PM	Ahh... LK my friend, it has been a while :) -Yeah, the cramping in my fingers from typing so much just recently went away! He was researching paths to godhood and other forms of great power(like any Netherese). -Karsus (with the exception of Ioulaum, and perhaps Larloch, since we don't know too much about him at the time) was the only Arcanists who possessed the ability to actually do this, as demonstrated by the effects of Karsus' Avatar. And, other than Karsus, there are no clues that hint that Netherese Arcanists plotted to become deities. With things turning ugly he chose to take his research into the direction of stealing a god's power(although that might also just have been a point of personal interest... something developed to test theories with regards to what gods are). -No, the fact that he cast Karsus' Avatar shortly after Ioulaum disappeared means that his research had been about stealing the power of a deity. It goes without saying that a spell of this callibre took a 'little bit' of time to devise and create. There is no canon information that states exactly when Karsus began researching the spell, or exactly for what reason. Since A Grand History of the Realms is supposed to be a little more illuminating concerning Netheril, perhaps we'll get a little something, who knows? He obviously was at the point in his research where he understood gods well enough to steal one's power, but not at the point where he could turn himself into the ultimate god directly with his magic. -At the time of his casting, he was at the point where he could sucessfully cast the spell that he had researched and developed. It was, after all, sucessful. Karsus did become the deity of magic, and would have been the deity of magic a little longer, with drastically different results (for good or bad), had Mystryl not ended herself. ... If Karsus had time, he wouldn't have needed to use KA. He would have extended his research and eventually come up with a method that was stable and not likely to get him killed(seriously even a 5% chance that it will kill you, is an unnecessary risk, when you have plenty of time ahead) -Had the Phaerimm not attacked Netheril, he might not have ever developed Karsus' Avatar in the first place. Perhaps he would have developed the spell, or one just like it, anyway. There is an infinite amount of possibilities. All we need is the M'Kraan Crystal Unless someone stops her, Shar can exterminate the Phaerimm just fine. The SW is not necessary, and Karsus didn't know about Ao and restrictions on gods. -How so? Since we've taken the Shadow Weave out of the equation, how would what she represents be able to exterminate the Phaerimm? This is all presuming, of course, that a deity can't simply "strike them all down dead", period. If that were the case, a simple minor deity would have sufficed for what Karsus had intended. The point is that the word god is a generalization. Like the word animal is a generalization. -I was trying to be comedic, hence the smiley. Many gods were born, many died. Their names forgotten by mortals(assuming they were ever known by mortals to begin with :)) -The canon, published creation mythos states specifically what deities were created, who sided with who, and what not. Sure, you can claim that since it was never stated that X wasn't created doesn't mean it didn't happen. But, if that's the case, then Elminster is gay (nothing specifically says that he isn't), Primus recieves his orders from Zeromus (nothing specifically says that he doesn't), and it rains pink raindrops in northern Thay for exactly three seconds, every other second day in the tenday (nothing specifically says that it doesn't). Again, you are stretching the canon. That's your modus operandi. :P Very presumptuous PoV. That a being with infinite power(aka the power to create), actually cares about insignificant beings like humans. Just shows how over-proud humans are :) And why do you think you are important enough that deceiving you would actually be something important enough that god would bother feeling bad about it? The views of a creation(and one random creation among countless others) likely won't matter to the creator :) And who says that humans are first-tier creation. We could be 2nd+ tier creation, created by imperfect gods(who themselves were created by the ultimate God), for their amusement, or just as an experiment :P Who says that the humans' creator actually felt the need to create a universe for humans, instead of just putting them in a sim? :D -I'm just giving you the solution to what you said. I never actually said that I believe it...;)
Zsych 06-30-07, 04:06 AM	Well a risky spell wasn't really worth it to try on himself. Shar... I was indeed imagining a greater god smashing them dead. At the least, her divination combined with the power to create avatars would put her in a plenty decent situation if she wanted to kill gods. Hmm.. about gods created during Shar and Selune's wars. I remember that that's what I read. Don't remember where from though. And the story of the Chronomancer tells you that the Netherese Archwizards sought to be gods. Wouldn't risk help from gods(in the form of healing spells), lest that opportunity be lost to them. Its possible that other wizards also had the potential to become minor gods if they wanted to become them, and didn't find the objective worthwhile. .. although being godlike was just as good as being gods to them(or so I think)