Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Roman 11-12-07, 04:48 AM	The best inspiration for designing a fantasy world is often the world we experience in real life. Forgotten Realms has made good use of real life regions as inspiration for regions of the campaign setting. From Kara Tur to Maztica and so on, current or historical real life cultures have served as models on which to base the cultures of the Realms. Of course, none of FR cultures are simple replicas of their real life counterparts, but they certainly drew inspiration from them and it worked out well. Since I am not as well versed in Forgotten Realms as many on these boards, I would like to enquire whether there are any countries/cultures in the Realms that are based on Russia or Eastern Europe or Central Europe. I feel that Russia, at least*, is distinct enough from Western Europe to be suitable to serve as a model to base a Forgotten Realms culture/country on. Has this been done already? *Other countries would also be suitable as models for FR cultures, but Russia just sprang to my mind.
Stigger 11-12-07, 04:59 AM	Rasheman could be viewed as old Russia... you could look at the Moonsea as the eastern European analogy I suppose... kinda depends on the era you're looking for.
Roman 11-12-07, 06:19 AM	Rasheman could be viewed as old Russia... Not a terribly close analogue, but from what I gather Rashemen does share certain traits with old Russia. you could look at the Moonsea as the eastern European analogy I suppose... kinda depends on the era you're looking for. Thanks! I am not familiar with the Moonsea - can anybody give me a description of what it's like?
Stigger 11-12-07, 06:40 AM	A harsh land of tyrants on the edge of civilization seems appropriate enough... which seems fairly close to Eastern Europe during the 'mythic' period. And no, neither are terribly close analogs, but the closest I've seen so far. You might want to see if you can get a hold of the 2e Moonsea sourcebook as a PDF, though it's not that great to be honest. It's a relatively little detailed area to be honest, and fit the closest of anything else I can think of. There have been a few threads on the subject, but those were a long while ago really.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-12-07, 06:54 PM	The best inspiration for designing a fantasy world is often the world we experience in real life. Well, other fantasy worlds notwithstanding, it's the only inspiration we have, really, since it's the only world we ever get to experience. Forgotten Realms has made good use of real life regions as inspiration for regions of the campaign setting. From Kara Tur to Maztica and so on, current or historical real life cultures have served as models on which to base the cultures of the Realms. Of course, none of FR cultures are simple replicas of their real life counterparts, but they certainly drew inspiration from them and it worked out well. My least favorite FR areas are the ones that feel the most "real worldish". I like it best when a fantasy land cannot be easily traced back to any particular real world source of inspiration. And truly, the areas you've mentioned (Kara Tur and Maztica) are oddities--tacked-on areas that don't flow as well with the original areas of the realms that don't have real world parallels.
mrpopstar 11-13-07, 01:14 AM	Roman: Since I am not as well versed in Forgotten Realms as many on these boards, I would like to enquire whether there are any countries/cultures in the Realms that are based on Russia or Eastern Europe or Central Europe. I feel that Russia, at least*, is distinct enough from Western Europe to be suitable to serve as a model to base a Forgotten Realms culture/country on. Has this been done already?I have many times seen Damara's landscape and peoples portrayed in a manner inspired by Russia. I have even played in a game where the DM referred to the Damaran King as "Czar". I am comfortable with the likeness. The description of Damara/ns in the CS is quite like Russia/ns. In another game i played the Dm had all Damaran peoples who had ancestry predating the economic crumble of Damara refer to Damara as the "Mother Country". He also had native Damarans reference the "Old Country" when speaking of the time before Damara's economic decline and the coming of the Witch King (much like Russians do in reference to "Mother Russia" and the time of the "Old Country" before the communist regime). Female NPC's were often sporting Kerchief's, royals wore the tell-tale Czar knotted-gold halo-ish crown, and people wore lots of fur (muffs and high hats). Damara has a famous alcohol easily equated with Russians and their Vodka. Ilmater (a god beloved by the people of Damara), his followers, and his church is soaked in Christ imagery; the Russian Orthodox church and faith is filled with comparable iconography. Damara is gray, as are her people; in outlook, landscape, quality of life, and general temperment -- much like Russia. ... the list goes on. :)
Roman 11-13-07, 06:02 AM	Hmm, from your description it does indeed look like Damara is the closest FR analogue to Russia. Thanks!
The_Shaman 11-13-07, 06:42 AM	Rasheman could be viewed as old Russia... you could look at the Moonsea as the eastern European analogy I suppose... kinda depends on the era you're looking for. Stigger is right, it really depends on the era you're looking for. Kievan Rus is one thing, the Muscovy under Tatar domination or just afterwards is another, etc. Anyway, for some reason I considered Narfell a possible candidate for an Eastern/Central European game, and if you were to go further East, the Hordelands might offer some opportunity. That said, I wouldn't feel quite right if a FR region is just like certain historical country, but I could appreciate the faint hints.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-13-07, 10:16 AM	Hmm, from your description it does indeed look like Damara is the closest FR analogue to Russia. Thanks! Much of that was a DM's description, not lore from any sourcebook. Why not just set the game in the real world (or a D&D version of it) if what you want is Old Russia with magic?
The Ubbergeek 11-13-07, 03:16 PM	Rashemeni feels to me like ancient, 'primitive' finns and sammi of the dark ages mixed with the proto-slaves maybe, indeed. It's in all, north eastern europe-russia to me.
Roman 11-13-07, 04:54 PM	Much of that was a DM's description, not lore from any sourcebook. Fair enough Why not just set the game in the real world (or a D&D version of it) if what you want is Old Russia with magic? Huh? I never said I wanted to game in Old Russia with magic - I merely enquired about whether Russia has served as an inspiration for a particular Forgotten Realms culture given that I noticed that many other regions/countries obviously did provide such inspiration.
CreationOmega 11-13-07, 05:51 PM	Privet, Roman.
GothicDan 11-14-07, 11:28 AM	Hmm, from your description it does indeed look like Damara is the closest FR analogue to Russia. Thanks! How easily you accepted another's stance about what a part of Faerun is the "closest" very much emphasizes why I would never, ever make such analogies, even for convenience sake. Because all too often these broad, inconsistent, overgeneralized analogies can go on to BECOME Faerun in the eyes of many. People like to say how "obviously" Cormyr is England. Well, if you choose a few aspects of English culture and geography - mounted cavalry, a monarchy, nobles, Western ethics, etc. - then you might be right. But the feminist equality, the power of the nobles (more similar to France anyway), the fact that religion does not play a strong, authoritative role, the lack of any progression towards a naval power (let alone it not being a series of islands) to me makes it more different from England than it is the same. There is no culture it is the "most" like, I think. Rather, all world cultures are derived from the same evolutionary/social basis, and these rough ideas were altered to suit each environment/culture over the millenia, but still remained intrinsically the same root. So, the question becomes not, "What is most like Russia/the Slavic lands in Faerun?" But rather, "Which region has [the specific attributes of those cultures] in Faerun?" This isn't meant to be an attack. I guess I'm just a bit on edge about generalizations for purposes of social communication and learning. I just wrote a paper critiquing what a terrible disservice our World Religions book did to Buddhism in trying to mention all of the various traditions/branches/schools without actually telling us anything about them. It ended in, "Strife can arise from even the most innocuous omission," which is oddly practical to this. :)
Roman 11-14-07, 12:04 PM	Privet, Roman. Privet, Creation Omega! That is actually very close to the limit of my Russian. I started learning the language about a month ago, but have only had three classes so far. How easily you accepted another's stance about what a part of Faerun is the "closest" very much emphasizes why I would never, ever make such analogies, even for convenience sake. Given that I currently have no access to any other sources (not even the FRCS) I have to trust what people say on the matter... and why not, it's not as if they are likely to have some ulterior motive to deceive me about the Forgotten Realms. Because all too often these broad, inconsistent, overgeneralized analogies can go on to BECOME Faerun in the eyes of many. But a broad, generalized analogy is exactly what I asked for in my original question! I essentially wanted to know what FR land would be considered the closest to Old Russia - that does not mean that every aspect of that FR land must fit in with what Russia was like in the Middle Ages. People like to say how "obviously" Cormyr is England. Well, if you choose a few aspects of English culture and geography - mounted cavalry, a monarchy, nobles, Western ethics, etc. - then you might be right. But the feminist equality, the power of the nobles (more similar to France anyway), the fact that religion does not play a strong, authoritative role, the lack of any progression towards a naval power (let alone it not being a series of islands) to me makes it more different from England than it is the same. There is no culture it is the "most" like, I think. Rather, all world cultures are derived from the same evolutionary/social basis, and these rough ideas were altered to suit each environment/culture over the millenia, but still remained intrinsically the same root. So, the question becomes not, "What is most like Russia/the Slavic lands in Faerun?" But rather, "Which region has [the specific attributes of those cultures] in Faerun?" This isn't meant to be an attack. I guess I'm just a bit on edge about generalizations for purposes of social communication and learning. I just wrote a paper critiquing what a terrible disservice our World Religions book did to Buddhism in trying to mention all of the various traditions/branches/schools without actually telling us anything about them. It ended in, "Strife can arise from even the most innocuous omission," which is oddly practical to this. :) Perhaps, but such misunderstandings in real life can result in deadly wars. By contrast, misunderstandings about the nature of a country in Forgotten Realms can at most produce flame wars. :D
MarkusTay63 11-14-07, 01:21 PM	Rashemen is Russia, hands down. You have the 'Rus' living there, which is literally a real-world group! How can they have the Rus and NOT be Russia? :rolleyes: Not to mention Baba Yaga hangs out there as per Daughter of the Drow. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-14-07, 01:29 PM	Yeah, if I had to pick a place, it would be Rashemen. But it's still very different from anything you'd find in the real world (that is, you can't just assume it's "Russia in the Forgotten Realms"). Also, I'm not sure but I think a lot of the Russian influence was due to Elaine Cunningham's novels. I'm not saying that to "knock" her work, my point is that authors often have their own takes on things.
Roman 11-14-07, 05:43 PM	Interesting snippets of info - thanks! So it does appear that by near consensus Rashemen is the closest FR analogue to Old Russia.
DarthVicious074 11-15-07, 12:15 AM	Well, how far back in Russia's history are we talking? I mean the Russians were settled by the Vikings, the Goths, and the Huns. All before they were introduced to Eastern Orthodox from Greece, and Catholicism from Germany and Romania. So, you could also include the Tuigans in the Horde Lands as the FR equivalent to the Huns, and the North, Spine of the World, as possible equivalents for the Goths and Vikings. I you're also wondering about Eastern Europe, then will have to include the Romans, the Saxons, and the Goths and Huns. Which broadens the possible FR counterparts. And that's not including the empires of more recent note, such as the Ottoman Empire, German kingdoms like Bohemia, etc. and Countries like Walachia, Transylvania, etc. So for me, I'd choose anything from the Moonsea, Rasheman, the Horde Lands, Narfell, Damara, and Vaasa.
Suin Bahhar 11-15-07, 02:06 PM	A mystic snowy spirit filled realm with heavy furred barbarians and powerful witches has analogies with a mythic siberian era with russian wicca practice. Sure real world analogies are not needed on fantasy worlds like Fearun but somehow I enjoy both the settings of Karatur and Zakhara dispite being added on later. I've always found the wealth of information those settings gave was enough for me to work with them in the campaigns, if only as odball NPC's or as travel adventures. Make the realms seem more vast.
GothicDan 11-15-07, 03:02 PM	Eh, there's nothing wrong with real world analogues in and of themselves. I've made a few and played in some. I just don't want them plopped into Abeir-Toril with no explanation. There WERE other continents in Abeir-Toril before TSR put in Kara-Tur, etc. The entirety of the world was always vast - just not very detailed.
Suin Bahhar 11-15-07, 03:23 PM	Several members of our gaming group played in Zakhara first before they went to the Forgotten Realms propper. So that setting holds a special place for them. The setting was also excellantly done with a real fresh view on fantasy deserts & genies environment. The beatiful cities, sha'ír magic and concepts such as Fate and the Evil Eye made the area an arabian adventurers dream. The style olf play contrasted very well with our other games in Lankhmar (which is in constrast feels as a more grittier and bland compared to the colorful Land of Fate setting), the city of thieves campaign. When one grows into Fearun through Zakhara it sure feels very much integral to your view of Toril. The conflicts in timelines of the lore dont faze me in disliking a good campaign setting.
mrpopstar 11-17-07, 03:14 PM	Wow. People take the issues of history, real-life, make-believe, and this game all too seriously at times. Everyone's a damn historian on these boards. :rolleyes: Roman: Hmm, from your description it does indeed look like Damara is the closest FR analogue to Russia. Thanks!Glad to be of service. :)
Stigger 11-17-07, 06:23 PM	Odd how that whole history/real-life thing comes around from a thread like this one... simply amazing. :P Unless you're referring to Dan, in which case, whatever negative thing you might say to upset him, I agree with completely... :D
The Ubbergeek 11-19-07, 02:07 AM	Wow. People take the issues of history, real-life, make-believe, and this game all too seriously at times. Everyone's a damn historian on these boards. :rolleyes: Roman: Glad to be of service. :) Peoples forget at times, like it happened to the Greyhawk fandom, that the whole thing was a game first.... Then the books appeared, and the canon, with all that implies...
Zireael 11-19-07, 02:35 AM	Ech, I don't think Damara is anywhere near to Russia. But the Rashemen is... and remember what Elaine said in the Windwalker dedication? "To my grandmother, who would feel in Rashemen like at home..." :) And note that Elaine's grandmother is Polish :D ... and Poland is not as much different from Russia... if we talk about Middle Ages...:)
MarkusTay63 11-19-07, 03:05 AM	You are talking about people of Slavic decent, a group that equates to the Raumviran in FR game terms. The Raumviran were the precursers to several other groups, including the Rashemi, the Nar, the Raumanthir, and the Sossrim (and perhaps others) - all groups that demonstrate certain aspects of Slavic ethnicity. Peoples forget at times, like it happened to the Greyhawk fandom, that the whole thing was a game first.... But notice, no one ever tries to 'nuke' Baltic Avenue or Mediterranean Avenue off the monopoly board. :P Even if people don't find them very interesting. ;)
Jiggawha 11-19-07, 08:11 AM	there no such thing, if some of you actually knew the history of the area you would realize that such analogies are ridiculous, yea some Damaran names are alike due to unoriginality of the designers
The_Shaman 11-19-07, 08:58 AM	Ech, I don't think Damara is anywhere near to Russia. But the Rashemen is... and remember what Elaine said in the Windwalker dedication? "To my grandmother, who would feel in Rashemen like at home..." :) And note that Elaine's grandmother is Polish :D ... and Poland is not as much different from Russia... if we talk about Middle Ages...:) I probably shouldn't say this... but don't say this to a Pole or a Russian. Just don't.
Zireael 11-19-07, 09:00 AM	Ech, I am Polish, and I think so... which doesn't mean everyone thinks so :( We're talking about Middle Ages, remember...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-19-07, 01:30 PM	This is Faerun, not "the middle ages". The only thing that seems very Slavic about Damara, to me, is some of the nomenclature.
The_Shaman 11-19-07, 06:28 PM	Ech, I am Polish, and I think so... which doesn't mean everyone thinks so :( We're talking about Middle Ages, remember... What would you consider typical for the two countries then? I'm afraid my medieval Polish history is quite poor. I thought that a large part of the medieval Russian history involves dealing with the Tatars, and I don't think they had a lasting presence in Poland. Did they?
Stigger 11-19-07, 07:51 PM	No one had a lasting presence per se in Poland as far as I'm aware. It was a nice, flat piece of land that most people went nuts over the minute they saw it, and decided it was perfect ground to control for their aspirations of conquest in whatever direction they were heading... at least from what I recall, although its been ages since I looked over the (very) few books I have on it.
Bonzai 11-20-07, 12:24 PM	That Nar always struck me as sort of a Cossack horse culture as well.
mikebulko 11-21-07, 03:14 AM	heres how i consider certain countries/races in fr: Rashemen - Russia Damara - Germanic Tethyr - Moroccan Cormyr - English/French Calimshan - Turkey Amn - Spanish Dalelands - Swiss The North & Icewind Dale - Nordic Calishite - Middle eastern Chondathan - European, middle Illuskan - European, northern Mulan - Asian, steppes Tethyrian - a mix of mediterranean european and Arab Rashemi - Russian, India/Pakistan Damaran - eastern european (from germany on) but i mean it doesnt necessarily hold up. for instance the Ffolk of the moonshae are pretty obviously gaelic inspired but the books say that they are decended from tethyrians. also, the picture in PGtF is pretty whack i think. it looks like the mulan and damaran are switched around (they also made the mistake with grey and gold dwarves) and the one for illuskan looks like a red wizard of thay to me, so i would think thats mulan too? i dont know in the baldurs gate games Minsc is Rashemi and he has a Russian accent
Stigger 11-21-07, 04:00 AM	The captions in PGtF were pretty horribly scrambled for all the races actually...
MarkusTay63 11-21-07, 04:08 AM	You listed Calimshan and Calishite seperately? :confused: These are just how I look at them, do with it what you will. Calimshan = Morrocco Tethyr = Portugal Amn = Spain Look at a map, it makes sense and fits with the whole 'Maztica' thing. ;) The Shoon Imperium would equate to the Moorish invasions of old Iberia. As for the rest - Sembia = Pre-national Italy Cormyr = French (Charlemagne) Moonshaes = Celtic British Isles Nar = Ukraine (Cossack Russia) Rashemen = Romania Aglarond = Bulgaria Thay = Stygia (minus Set) Mulhorand = Egypt Unther = Bablonia/Sumeria Chessenta = Greece (City-States) Chondath = Rome (during one of their 'un-unified' periods) Dales = Switzerland (I like that one) Rauthym = Scandanavia (also nothern Moonshaes and the Icewindale region) Damara = Austria Vassa = Germany (during the the barbarian/Roman period) Chult = Tarzan's Jungle (cross between Africa and Central America w/dinosaurs) Utter east = Persia Tuigan = Huns (Taangan = Mongolia) Semphar = Byzantium (east meets west) Murghôm = Pre-Ottoman Turkey (Ghazi emirates) Shou Lung = China T'u Lung = Taiwan? Wa = Imperial Japan Kozakura = Shogunate Japan Koryo = Korea Malatra = Old Siam Larang Valleys = Indian Kush Maztica = Central America Zakhara = Arabian Knights style Middle-East.
Stigger 11-21-07, 04:20 AM	The first list refers to nations, the second list refers to cultures... sorta.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-21-07, 01:22 PM	in the baldurs gate games Minsc is Rashemi and he has a Russian accent Not really. The list of FR to real world parallels are hurting my eyes. :(
Stigger 11-21-07, 02:30 PM	C'mon Rino, you should know by now that people are always going to draw parallels whenever they can... pattern-finding creatures. If it helps them understand the basic inspirations of the Realms better, I say let them draw all the parallels they want if it helps them enjoy the game. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-21-07, 02:58 PM	C'mon Rino, you should know by now that people are always going to draw parallels whenever they can... pattern-finding creatures. I suppose so. I think it kind of defeats the purpose of playing in a second world, but to each their own.
mikebulko 11-21-07, 03:15 PM	in my defense the reason ive drawn comparisons is because there isnt a whole lot of detail in the human ethnicities. a lot of the other common races have some sort of frame of reference. like mentioning 'wood elf' brings to mind a specific sort of image. but saying 'chondathan humans have tawny skin and brown hair/eyes' still doesnt bring that much of an image.
mikebulko 11-21-07, 06:10 PM	perhaps its from growing up off conan comics.
The Ubbergeek 11-21-07, 11:28 PM	I suppose so. I think it kind of defeats the purpose of playing in a second world, but to each their own. You should relax a bit.. We can't reinvent the well. Even greenwood or other can't. And really, it's not that bad... considering also that it's our 'twin world' , well...
Zireael 11-22-07, 02:46 AM	The Tatars did reach Poland in about 1400's, excuse me I don't remember the exact date. I mostly meant that both Poland and Russia are Slavic and they have at least part of the culture in common. And Rashemen resembles both of them...
MarkusTay63 11-22-07, 03:17 AM	The list of FR to real world parallels are hurting my eyes. :(Sorry, I know that the cultures are different in FR, and not really parallels, but it helps me to better understand the mindset of each group when designing adventures. If I can pass on that 'cheat sheet', and it helps others, then 'no-harm, no-foul', ya know? ;) As Mikebulko said - sometimes its easier to picture someone in your mind if you have something to compare it to.
Roman 11-22-07, 06:25 AM	Thank you for the lists of analogues! To those who worry that the FR region will be equated to the RL region: do not worry. Nobody is claiming they are the same - just that they served as the basis for inspiration. I think it is helpful.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-22-07, 03:33 PM	You should relax a bit.. You're telling me to relax, of all people? That's funny.:rofl: We can't reinvent the well. Even greenwood or other can't. Says who? Besides you...?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-22-07, 03:35 PM	Sorry, I know that the cultures are different in FR, and not really parallels, but it helps me to better understand the mindset of each group when designing adventures. If I can pass on that 'cheat sheet', and it helps others, then 'no-harm, no-foul', ya know? ;) As Mikebulko said - sometimes its easier to picture someone in your mind if you have something to compare it to. I understand, trust me.:) It just gets annoying when analogies grow arms and legs (to borrow a phrase from Zanan) and people start saying stuff like "Waterdeep is London in the FR, Cormyr is France, etc."
Stigger 11-22-07, 04:33 PM	I always equated Waterdeep with Amsterdam for some reason... minus the canals... :hides:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-22-07, 04:51 PM	I always equated Waterdeep with Amsterdam for some reason... minus the canals... :hides: Don't hide, now, I won't bite.:P
Stigger 11-22-07, 08:27 PM	Pity... :( :D
MarkusTay63 11-23-07, 01:37 AM	I always thought of Waterdeep as New York City - just goes to show you. Ya know, the whole cosmopolitan, 'multi-cultural', fairly recent (compared to others) city with 10 million people or so. Oh, and there are the subways, sewers and undercity where the Morlocks live - just like Undermountian. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Callistox.jpg I think I even ran into Halaster down there once - he was riding the 'D' train... :rolleyes: Crazy bast_rd... kept asking for change...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-24-07, 06:09 PM	Actually, I think comparing Waterdeep to New York City is apt in the sense that anything can be found there, and there is pretty much every kind of person there.
Suin Bahhar 11-24-07, 06:27 PM	So which city resembles Moskow? :D Or Prague? (the most medievally beautifal city I've been to) I always found the cities of the realms very distinct though.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-24-07, 06:32 PM	So which city resembles Moskow? :D Or Prague? (the most medievally beautifal city I've been to) I always found the cities of the realms very distinct though. I have no idea. Waterdeep is similar to New York York in the ways that I mentioned above, but the similarities probably stop there (besides, NYC isn't the only cosmopolitian city in the world!). And I still think comparing places in the real world to places in the Realms is problematic.
Suin Bahhar 11-24-07, 07:04 PM	Agreed. I like most bigger cities in the realms alot. But which one would you find the best to live in? Me? Arabel.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-24-07, 07:53 PM	Agreed. I like most bigger cities in the realms alot. But which one would you find the best to live in? Me? Arabel. I like Baldur's Gate.:)
MarkusTay63 11-24-07, 08:36 PM	I want to live in Skuld. :P An ancient, dark, seedy city with an Egyptian culture named after a Norse goddess... you know thats got to be cool. :D The closest you'll get to Prague is probably Almorel (although officially it's not quite a city). Otherwise, there really isn't much left of the Raumviran culture - the predecessor to the Rashemi, Nar, and Sossrim cultures. Winterkeep probably has that Greco-Russian look to it as well, but that place is pretty deserted now (except for monsters). Some of Thay's older cities may have the look you want, like the ruins of Delhumide, which used to be part of Raumanther. The newer stuff would have more of the Egyptian/Mulhorandi look carried over by the Mulan ruling class. You could always do your own thing and make Bildoobaris (in Narfell) a true city instead of temporary settlement - even give them a Czar and everything. It's not lot there's a whole lot of canon material holding you back from that one, and it wouldn't change anything important (locally perhaps, but not 'globally').
Stigger 11-25-07, 10:37 AM	Neverwinter as its described in the Volo's Guides would be the place I would like most I think.
DarthVicious074 11-25-07, 07:31 PM	I would live in either Suzail or Shadowdale.
GothicDan 11-26-07, 01:27 AM	Leuthilspar, obviously.