Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ikki 06-14-07, 02:57 PM	Ie referring here to the large.. and ever growing amount of highlevel wizard guys that have been killed.. khelben, hilather, laurozil.. elminster? So who is next, and what will the matriarchy look like that will seize command of faerun?
Stigger 06-14-07, 02:58 PM	Hopefully it'll look like Laeral, that should cut down on the complaints from the menfolk quite a bit...
Alediran 06-14-07, 04:10 PM	ikki, both Elminster and Hilather (former name of Halaster) are very much still alive. And if they kill Laeral I'm going to kill her killer.
souldnce9 06-14-07, 04:42 PM	One question! How do I sign up? Girl Power!!!! :w00t:
Boda 06-14-07, 05:11 PM	As long as El's around, they dont stand a chance against his mojo!
Stigger 06-14-07, 06:02 PM	lol, good point there Boda :D
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 06:15 PM	ikki, both Elminster and Hilather (former name of Halaster) are very much still alive. And if they kill Laeral I'm going to kill her killer. The new Expedition to Undermountain apparently makes mention of Halaster dying (or so I read in another thread).
Stigger 06-14-07, 06:18 PM	:blink: I'm beginning to think nothing is sacred anymore... was bad enough dealing with that Xara Tantlor and her faerie dragon being turned into villains, then the thing with Khelben, and now maybe Halaster... bah. Now I'm feeling very grumpy...
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 06:28 PM	:blink: I'm beginning to think nothing is sacred anymore... was bad enough dealing with that Xara Tantlor and her faerie dragon being turned into villains, then the thing with Khelben, and now maybe Halaster... bah. Now I'm feeling very grumpy... Don't take it as fact. I haven't seen it myself. That's purely what I happened to read over on the general D&D boards. Besides, it's not FR, it's generic (I think), so it may not apply to Realms canon.
Stigger 06-14-07, 06:29 PM	Better not be... otherwise I'm burning all the ones I find without buying them first.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 06:30 PM	Feminazis are taking over Faerun? noooooo....I must take action now. oh, does El die in the upcoming module about his tower going in ruins?
Stigger 06-14-07, 06:31 PM	Think you're guess is as good as anyone elses... seem to recall reading that he got blasted into another plane or something to that effect, but who knows until its published.
Karsus the Mad 06-14-07, 06:34 PM	Think you're guess is as good as anyone elses... seem to recall reading that he got blasted into another plane or something to that effect, but who knows until its published. In the Return of the Archwizards he got sent to Hell. He escapes at the end of Elminster in Hell. Other than that, I haven't heard of him being blasted anywhere. He shouldn't be either. Poor chap deserves a wee bit of relaxation I would think.
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 11:06 PM	Other than that, I haven't heard of him being blasted anywhere. He shouldn't be either. Poor chap deserves a wee bit of relaxation I would think. -In the new set of Superadventures, Elminster's Tower is destroyed, and apparently, Elminster was nowhere to be found, meaning he "died". -None of this has anything to do with feminists, though.
Agudo Archmage 06-14-07, 11:13 PM	Isnt El in Hell at the time of his tower being destroyed?
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 11:21 PM	Isnt El in Hell at the time of his tower being destroyed? -No. Elminster in Hell took place during the Return of the Archwizards Trilogy (DR 1372 or so). The Tearing of the Weave, and the other adventures in that adventure trilogy take place in DR 1375.
Zandilar 06-15-07, 01:43 AM	Heya, *sniffs* I smell troll. *makes sure all foodstuffs are well packed away, and calls the pest exterminators*
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 02:29 AM	-In the new set of Superadventures, Elminster's Tower is destroyed, and apparently, Elminster was nowhere to be found, meaning he "died". -None of this has anything to do with feminists, though. I know about his tower, but I don't think that means he died, unless it explicitly states such:P How many homes do ancient archmages go through anyway?
souldnce9 06-15-07, 02:31 AM	So...... What exactly, who exactly, where exactly are these secret feminists?
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 02:33 AM	So...... What exactly, who exactly, where exactly are these secret feminists? Noone knows! They're secretive like that:plotting:
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 03:00 AM	Don't worry... the Gnomes will get THEM first... They ALWAYS do. :devil: What do you think happened to the Dwarves womenfolk, hmmmm? ;)
Zandilar 06-15-07, 07:30 AM	Heya, So...... What exactly, who exactly, where exactly are these secret feminists? :incog: Followers of Eilistraee... And... others... :detect: Maybe those lesbian monks of Sharess... :monk: Or... never mind. No, my name isn't Zandilar. You're just seeing things. :P And yes, I am behind the death of Khelben! Muahahahahahahahaha. :devil:
Zanan 06-15-07, 09:19 AM	Elminster is in save hands these days and she will take care of him sooner or later :cool:
XHereticX 06-15-07, 09:21 AM	Bah, go ahread and kill him, I could care less.:)
Zsych 06-15-07, 11:25 PM	Elminster not being around probably means he's busy somewhere. Don't think Elminster can die in the realms. Halaster also... no benefit in actually killing a character like that. And I think he'll probably always be a part of the realms. Maybe he'll let some truely awesome enemies think he's dead while he works on something elsewhere(although I don't think he should be leaving undermountain) Khelben... wasn't that important anyway :) -- As for feminism, I've always thought that there were too many powerful women around in an attempt to get more female players. I don't think gender equality should apply to male power hunger :)
XHereticX 06-15-07, 11:31 PM	Nah, powerful kick-ass females just attracts perverts (not that im a pervert, really...:censored: )
Lord Karsus 06-16-07, 12:03 AM	I know about his tower, but I don't think that means he died, unless it explicitly states such:P How many homes do ancient archmages go through anyway? -That's why I put his "death" in quotation marks. ;)
GothicDan 06-16-07, 12:20 AM	The idea that there's an overly large (and negative) feminist influence in the current Realms is laughable. From day one, the Realms have been a very egalitarian society in general; it was based on certain archetypes of Western society, roughly, so we had King Azoun and the like, but I do not feel that representing culturally valid (not necessarily 'moral') gender roles is a sign of anti-feminism. It's a sign of evolutionary psychology's mandates, and a result of how it played out in social development. If you want to take that as me ignoring blatant signs of misogyny (which some may), then just label me a misanthrope, since I assume the same for males representing appropriate archetypes, too. But Faerun's societies had one key difference: magic. Since we have no actual historical models of Western society that took into account the Weave and true, active deities, the Realms' females really shined when it came to spellcasters. Males (real life ones, at least) are driven by testosterone - it makes them more aggressive, more active, and more prone to doing stupid violent things and trying to gain temporal territory. Often. Females are more social creatures (living in caves together means you have to LIVE together, rather than just recognize hunting cues) and needed to learn how to use alternate methods of thinking than males did (as evidenced with multiple neurological and psychological studies; X gender's brain is better at Y). In other words: female archmagi bossing around, either via magic or charisma, 'stupid male brutes' is oddly a surprisingly natural evolution of society, to me. Oddly enough, this doesn't apply to the Drow at all, since their physiologies have none of the same gender tendencies as ours (reversed, in fact), and they never actually evolved. (Note: In El in Hell, it's pretty clear that the Simbul can kick both El's and Halaster's butts.)
The Simbul 06-16-07, 12:23 AM	None of the Archmages mentioned in the opening thread are remotely patriarchal, and the fact that a grand total of two of them are not among the living is hardly evidence of a feminist conspiracy to make female spellcasters front and center. As for the specifics In Khelben's death he leaves behind twin offspring conceived by two Chosen of Mystra, in addition to the restored City of High Magic. As much as I dislike his (arguably unnecessary) destruction, I consider it an more than fair trade off. As for Lauzoril--please do not post a spoiler without a spoiler notation in the title, I for one was not aware of his demise, and to be perfectly candid I am not very happy to have stumbled upon it in a message board discussion. As for the likes of Elminster and Halaster, unless there is a corpse then neither of them is dead, and if you do happen upon a "corpse" then I suggest you make prudent use of analyze dweomer and true seeing followed by a wish spell to purge you of any active magics trying to deceive or muddle your wits, since it is likely a ruse on their part. More precisely, I do not consider anyone at WoTC, (at least among the FR team that is), to be lacking enough in wits to kill off Elminster or Halaster in an adventure module, specifically when a hardcover novel is a more prudent, profitable, and fan-appeasing venue for such an occurence (and one that does not leave such a demise preventable by one DM, while accepted by another).
The Simbul 06-16-07, 12:37 AM	As for the status of Elminster as of 1374 DR and the opening of Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land. Volo's Guide to Cormanthor; Dragon Issue #354 15 Nightal, 1374 DR-- Sharran assassins infiltrate the village of Shadowdale and attack Elminster's tower. After a fierce battle, Elminster vanishes and his tower is blasted into ruin and hurled into another plane."Vanishing" does not equate to dying, specifically when you are the Archmage who created Elminster's evasion and are one of the Chosen of a Deity who is known to snatch her favored servants from the clutches of destruction at the last moment. Consider Elminster tucked away and recooperating in his extraplanar safehold and/or Mystra's divine realm in Dweomerheart for the bulk of the adventure. Also, the article goes into specific detail as to why Elminster (and the rest of the Chosen of Mystra) are unable to deal with the situation in Shadowdale, or even venture there to attempt to do so (hint; it has something to do with the module's original subtitle "the Weave unwinding".
souldnce9 06-16-07, 12:34 PM	You're right Dan! Simbul, thanks for that insight I was really wondering what all this talk of death was.
The Ubbergeek 06-16-07, 04:36 PM	More precisely, I do not consider anyone at WoTC, (at least among the FR team that is), to be lacking enough in wits to kill off Elminster or Halaster in an adventure module, specifically when a hardcover novel is a more prudent, profitable, and fan-appeasing venue for such an occurence (and one that does not leave such a demise preventable by one DM, while accepted by another). It was stated I think that El knew that one day, he will die... he have a feeling of his own mortality. I don't think he is actually imortal, or at least he could and will 'wish himself to death' for the cycle of life and universe. So, don't be angry too much if it happens, as long as it is finely written... And the SImbul is just a crazed little girl whose only the body aged. :D :P ;) She is VERY CN. ;)
Zsych 06-16-07, 05:57 PM	Just because Elminster is getting old and senile(so that he leaves the Realms to normal people), doesn't mean that he should be dying within our lifetimes. Its really just an excuse for why El doesn't mess around all over the Realms all the time. All the other Chosen of Mystra are also supposed to slowly be going senile. Maybe the human brain even supported by magic just isn't meant to work that long. (might be why Ioulaum transformed himself into an elder brain... gave him more brain capacity)
Lord Karsus 06-16-07, 09:11 PM	More precisely, I do not consider anyone at WoTC, (at least among the FR team that is), to be lacking enough in wits to kill off Elminster or Halaster in an adventure module, specifically when a hardcover novel is a more prudent, profitable, and fan-appeasing venue for such an occurence (and one that does not leave such a demise preventable by one DM, while accepted by another). -Say hello to Dan's hero, Richard Baker. In his defense though, a novel , or some other source could be written in the future. As far as I am aware, Baker has confirmed that Halaster is dead, but his death was not elaborated in Expedition to Undermountain. For instance, I don't believe that we even know how he died...
Zsych 06-16-07, 09:47 PM	Did the guy explain why they thought it was beneficial to kill Halaster? ... and he doesn't even have any allies to bring him back(although he may have set up some spells, maybe Wish-based, to do it for him... maybe they do a periodic check... once a year :))
XHereticX 06-16-07, 09:49 PM	Halaster is definatly not dead, most likely just blasted away to some plane like El. Hey, maybe blasted to the same plane... You think this is some sharran plot to eliminate prominent archwizards or something?
Dark Wizard 06-16-07, 10:07 PM	Halaster is definatly not dead, most likely just blasted away to some plane like El. Hey, maybe blasted to the same plane... You think this is some sharran plot to eliminate prominent archwizards or something? Personal, unsupported speculation - as likely as Dark Moon Monks are shady. :rimshot:
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 05:44 PM	Did the guy explain why they thought it was beneficial to kill Halaster? -Richard Baker mentioned that it will be made FR Canon in A Grand History of the Realms. He didn't mention whether or not a reason will be included, but presumably there will be a reason. -Having an..."poignant" death will make this pill a lot easier to swallow. In short, giving Halaster a "good" death, like Steve Schend gave Khelben, will be the issue that "makes or breaks" this issue, I believe.
XHereticX 06-17-07, 05:48 PM	Personal, unsupported speculation - as likely as Dark Moon Monks are shady. :rimshot: Right now we don't have anything better. When there is a lack of information I like weaving conspiracy theories.
ikki 06-20-07, 07:16 PM	I wonder if the idea behind Halasters death, isnt linked to taking over Dungeon.. and thus the Maure Castle storyline... I mean the basic storylines do seem to have something in common, a "old master", blasted, and now the house is in disorder..
Zanan 06-21-07, 10:41 AM	I wonder if the idea behind Halasters death, isnt linked to taking over Dungeon.. and thus the Maure Castle storyline... I mean the basic storylines do seem to have something in common, a "old master", blasted, and now the house is in disorder.. ... and a mistress takes over. :cool:
Lykor 06-21-07, 10:44 AM	Doesn't Elminster's tower get blown up every 15 minutes or so? Didn't it also get blown up in the Avatar trilogy?
XHereticX 06-21-07, 10:56 AM	I wonder if the idea behind Halasters death, isnt linked to taking over Dungeon.. and thus the Maure Castle storyline... I mean the basic storylines do seem to have something in common, a "old master", blasted, and now the house is in disorder.. The Maures? Those demon worshippers who are split between Malcanthet and Yeenoghu? They are from Toril?
ikki 06-21-07, 12:36 PM	The Maures? Those demon worshippers who are split between Malcanthet and Yeenoghu? They are from Toril? No, but im sure they will amange a quick switcharound.. and undermountain has been made universal now too..
captaincarot 06-21-07, 01:38 PM	i've decided that both hallaster and el are sat in a pub some where in halruah having a quiet beer, they've both been polymorphed in to halflings and are enjoying them selves being able to see up girls skirts, so they flatly refuse to be turned back. this will all become apparent in a few years when they get bored. as for how many towers does an arch mage get through, probably less than an alchemist.
MattBlacke 06-21-07, 08:35 PM	Are you sure El and the Simbul weren't just having a really good time and one of them overdid it with a spell? This whole 'Sharran assassin' thing could be a cover-up. :P Seriously, until you have the corpse in hand and feel the Weave shudder, chances are the old guy's ducked out and is smoking his pipe in some shady spot.
Zsych 06-23-07, 03:45 AM	Good death or not, killing Halaster, without replacing him with someone even more powerful and interesting, is ridiculous. Doesn't improve the Realms any to see Halaster dead and Undermountain damaged(though I suppose it would cause a release of plenty of monsters, but even that idea isn't all that appealing)
Steelwind 06-23-07, 07:55 AM	First Azoun (I'm still kinda bitter about this), then Khelben, and now Halaster. All I can say is, why, because if I say anymore my comment will quickly degrade into a rant. I was also mildly upset when they killed Sarya, she was a good evil sadistic *****.
msatran 06-23-07, 02:54 PM	Richard Baker wrote Sarya like a drunken crackmonkey without a brain. Has anyone ever actually looked at what an 18th level Half Fiend Elf Sorcerer can do with a lot of the new stuff out there? It's fairly insane. Greater Arcane Fusion/Fast Metamagic Greater Arcane Fusion with greater quickening rod. That's six spells in one round. Clearly, someone didn't do their homework. Araevin should have been down close to 300 HP in the first round of combat.
Lord Karsus 06-23-07, 05:58 PM	First Azoun (I'm still kinda bitter about this)... -At least Death of the Dragon was written by Ed Greenwood. It is his world, after all, so him killing off one of his NPCs isn't that bad. Has anyone ever actually looked at what an 18th level Half Fiend Elf Sorcerer can do with a lot of the new stuff out there? It's fairly insane. Greater Arcane Fusion/Fast Metamagic Greater Arcane Fusion with greater quickening rod. -Here's two easy, in-game solutions. One, Saraya simply isn't capable of those things. In other words, she doesn't have those feats. The second is, perhaps she was still readjusting to being "alive" once more. Being in stasis for thousands of years does make one a little rusty. Being an Elf, perhaps it took her much longer to get all the rust out. Clearly, someone didn't do their homework. -That sums up the entire trilogy.
XHereticX 06-23-07, 07:00 PM	I still say that Sarya was able to do those thing due to Malkizid's "divine intervention" as you would call it.
Mordakay of Thay 06-23-07, 07:56 PM	Khelben,strike 1.Halaster strike 2.Lets hope they don't miss next time and kill the Simbul.
msatran 06-24-07, 01:00 AM	As for the problems with powerful women, do I detect a hint of misogyny creeping into people's discussion tone? Quite frankly, my problem is that for some reason, novel heroes get the "PC treatment." Where they have a whole bunch of stuff NPC's don't have or can't do. That's no way to run a living world. In a living world, there's no such thing as an NPC. I run two of them. Do you really know that Sarya's an NPC? In order for the FR to regain functionality, they need to TAKE AWAY THE PC TEE SHIRT from the novel characters, and construct realistic, more INTELLIGENT threats.
GothicDan 06-24-07, 03:49 PM	I agree with Msatran. The best novels I've read (in my opinion) were written with all characters portrayed realistically, with realistic (within the universe) strengths and failings. Case in point: Song of Ice and Fire. They all have reasons for doing what they do, and the people we'd label as "Good" aren't endowed with idiosyncratic, arbitrary abilities that allow them to conquer a much greater force of antagonism (LotR, anyone?) I'm not saying that such a theme is BAD, it just doesn't feel very FR to me, given the setting's focus on intrigue and organizations over direct massive, stupid battles and wars. (The modern Realms, at least. Well, before 3E.)
Philalexandros 06-24-07, 04:51 PM	On a completely unrelated note: I'm just happy to see such events occur (El's tower being destroyed; El being forced to flee)... simply because they show how hollow all these arguments labeling the Chosen* as invincible and detrimental to a game really are. * (or insert your group of choice)
Karsus the Mad 06-24-07, 04:58 PM	On a completely unrelated note: I'm just happy to see such events occur (El's tower being destroyed; El being forced to flee)... simply because they show how hollow all these arguments labeling the Chosen* as invincible and detrimental to a game really are. * (or insert your group of choice) Something funny came in my mind:) If they felt XXXX weren't detrimental, then they wouldn't need to make up an excuse as to why XXXX aren't there;) Besides, El's tower isn't destroyed. He's having it renovated. All that lead shielding can't be healthy.
The Simbul 06-24-07, 07:06 PM	Richard Baker wrote Sarya like a drunken crackmonkey without a brain. Has anyone ever actually looked at what an 18th level Half Fiend Elf Sorcerer can do with a lot of the new stuff out there? It's fairly insane. Greater Arcane Fusion/Fast Metamagic Greater Arcane Fusion with greater quickening rod. That's six spells in one round. Clearly, someone didn't do their homework. Araevin should have been down close to 300 HP in the first round of combat.Sarya does not have a detailed stat block, and even if she did to assume she could do most of the above would require one first to believe that Forgotten Realms NPC spellcasters are actually given viable statistics equitable for their challenge rating or their infamous reputations. Generally speaking if you are a Faerunian sorcerer or wizard with a name, a stat block, a biography, and an established history prior to 3E, then you can expect that the rules and guidelines for NPC statistics to be ignored towards your detriment so that you can be screwed in at least two of the three areas; *primary spellcasting ability scores *multiclass/prestige-class configuration *equipment lists Moreover, if you are a Faerunian sorcerer or wizard who is also a Chosen of Mystra, then you can expect to get shafted in all three categories. By contrast of course, if you happen to be Netherese, then you can expect the complete opposite, in that instead the rules are instead ignored to give you an overcompensating benefit in two of the three categories--whether it is Larloch's obscene wealth and un-accounted for ability score boosts, or Aumvor's complete disregard for the epic advancement rules or meeting prestige class requirements before you gain levels in them. So until that is rectified we can continue to assume that in Faerun a headband of intellect is a minor artifact, and that we are still playing AD&D where at epic levels an INT of 20 is supposed to be more than enough. By the way, Sarya would have been far nastier if she had stayed a wizard as described in the FRCS, instead of being converted into a sorcerer (and with it losing out on the benefit of her +8 total racial/template boost to INT). Because ever since Dragon magazine started pushing the notion of sorcerers "needing" bloodline/heritage benefits down our throats we have been forced to accept the notion that monstrous half-breeds are always sorcerers (and thus cannot ever be classed as a wizard), meanwhile the members of the sorcerer class as a whole are presumably somehow no longer allowed to just be ordinary people with an intuitive approach towards magic (which would be a more reasoned approach to the class--given that ANYONE can take levels in it and their population numbers are just as common as a dozen other classes).
The Simbul 06-24-07, 07:11 PM	p.s. either this thread needs a title change or we need to start a new one, since both the original topic and nearly all of the responses having little if anything to do with "feminists doing away with the patriarchy" and more to do with established NPCs being killed off or placed in peril--presumably to lure shocked adventurers to their locales and to lure shocked fans into bolstering product sales.
The Simbul 06-24-07, 07:18 PM	Something funny came in my mind:) If they felt XXXX weren't detrimental, then they wouldn't need to make up an excuse as to why XXXX aren't there;) Besides, El's tower isn't destroyed. He's having it renovated. All that lead shielding can't be healthy.Explaining away prominent/powerful NPCs or organizations is a requirement for any adventure that takes place anywhere outside of a hermetically sealed dungeon, regardless of whether it is explaining away the town guard and local adventurers in the orc-ravaged town in your homebrew world, or explaining away Elminster, Drizzt, and Khelben in a Forgotten Realms adventure. The difference is that because Elminster, Drizzt, and Khelben appear prominently in novels, and the generic captain of the town militia does not, that people somehow assume that those former characters are always around and therefore cannot be explained out of the adventure unless WoTC holds the DM's hand and walks them through "making the PCs the stars" in the adventure setup.
Karsus the Mad 06-24-07, 07:27 PM	if you happen to be Netherese, then you can expect the complete opposite, in that instead the rules are instead ignored to give you an overcompensating benefit in two of the three categories--whether it is Larloch's obscene wealth and un-accounted for ability score boosts, or Aumvor's complete disregard for the epic advancement rules or meeting prestige class requirements before you gain levels in them. What unaccounted for ability score boost (other than him having a Con score to begin with)? His Int is lower than it could be. His wealth? That's easy. He's mentally taken over 60 liches (most being former rulers of entire cities [add in wealth chart]), was once the ruler of a Netherese enclave, and one servitor known to be an archwizard (having his own enclave, and all the wealth that entails). I'd find it even more laughable if he had the standard "NPC wealth" crap chart. His "wealth" is perfectly understandable given the context of his situation. Aumvor, that's actually laughable:P
Karsus the Mad 06-24-07, 07:30 PM	Explaining away prominent/powerful NPCs or organizations is a requirement for any adventure that takes place anywhere outside of a hermetically sealed dungeon, regardless of whether it is explaining away the town guard and local adventurers in the orc-ravaged town in your homebrew world, or explaining away Elminster, Drizzt, and Khelben in a Forgotten Realms adventure. The difference is that because Elminster, Drizzt, and Khelben appear prominently in novels, and the generic captain of the town militia does not, that people somehow assume that those former characters are always around and therefore cannot be explained out of the adventure unless WoTC holds the DM's hand and walks them through "making the PCs the stars" in the adventure setup. My dear, dear Simbul, I was being sarcastic (as is my wont):)
Zandilar 06-24-07, 08:11 PM	Heya, p.s. either this thread needs a title change or we need to start a new one, since both the original topic and nearly all of the responses having little if anything to do with "feminists doing away with the patriarchy" and more to do with established NPCs being killed off or placed in peril--presumably to lure shocked adventurers to their locales and to lure shocked fans into bolstering product sales. The OPs implication was that in killing off all these established powerful NPCs who happen to be male, the developers/designers were causing a shift in power towards powerful NPCs who happen to be female. Therefore a shift towards matriarchy. Therefore a plot of "secret" feminists. And ultimately, therefore, sexist. :rolleyes: Which is why I initially dismissed the guy as a troll... I'm surprised no one else did. (My second post to this thread was silly, rather than serious. But I should have known better than to rise to the bait at all. Yet here I am responding again. *sigh*)
XHereticX 06-25-07, 08:36 AM	I agree with Msatran. The best novels I've read (in my opinion) were written with all characters portrayed realistically, with realistic (within the universe) strengths and failings. Case in point: Song of Ice and Fire. They all have reasons for doing what they do, and the people we'd label as "Good" aren't endowed with idiosyncratic, arbitrary abilities that allow them to conquer a much greater force of antagonism (LotR, anyone?) I'm not saying that such a theme is BAD, it just doesn't feel very FR to me, given the setting's focus on intrigue and organizations over direct massive, stupid battles and wars. (The modern Realms, at least. Well, before 3E.) whoa, whoa whoa, gone for one day and the topic changes so drastically:eek: I have to say, for the most part, I agree with you. A novel is far more dramatic and suspenseful when good and evil are portrayed on a even playing field and the victory is all the more sweet when the protageonest triumphs in such a situation. Still, the whole idea of High Fantasy in general (at least I think that is what the Realms are) is the idea of an unlikely hero rising to the occasion and conquering a previously thought unconquerable darkness. I don't think you should really burn the father of fantasy here since it was his books that set the standard for Greenwood's Realms anyway. I don't know what the Realms were like before 3rd edition, but now I clearly have an idea that the setting is a classic High Fantasy with some dark elements to it.
Soltares 06-25-07, 11:19 AM	The Realms does superficially appear to have a large number of good-aligned and powerful female rulers, and only a few good-aligned and powerful male rulers. Azoun and Piergeron are the only two prominent good-aligned male rulers I can think of, right off, and Azoun has been removed from the board. The evil societies, such as Thay, Zhentil Keep, Mulmaster, Hillsfar, etc. do seem to be heavily male-dominated, with the primarily female-dominated evil dark elves being shaken up to make them less female/Lolth-dominated. I don't see it as a 'secret feminist takeover' (since that would imply that Azoun's wife killed him or the Queen of Evermeet bumped off her husband to meet some artificial quota, neither of which is true), so much as an underlying setting assumption that evil is a predominately male trait. Given the nature of the Realms, with Mystra, Selune and Shar being the three 'first gods' and, arguably, the most powerful gods, it only makes sense that female rulers would be accepted and commonplace. Indeed, if anything, the Realms are surprisingly patriarchal *still,* with female rulers such as the Elven queen or the queen of Cormyr both only becoming queen *after* the deaths of their husband-kings. In a more egalitarian setting, it would be equally likely that some dude would end up king of Cormyr only after his wife, the Queen, died... It seems that in Cormyr or Evermeet, much as in the much-less-sexually-equal real-world, women can only come into rulership if their husbands bite it, which seems pretty out-of-character for the setting.
XHereticX 06-25-07, 11:21 AM	The main reason FR became so femanine-oriented was to attract more female gamers.;) Today, there seems to be a general assumption that girl gamers are either ugly or crazy.
Lord Karsus 06-25-07, 11:37 AM	-Truthfully, I really don't see how it's female oriented.
Soltares 06-25-07, 01:47 PM	The main reason FR became so femanine-oriented was to attract more female gamers.;) I assumed the opposite, that the reason the Realms had so many scantily-clad statuesque hot chicks with bosums the size of my head had less to do with attracting female gamers and more to do with attracting the eye of dudes. (Excepting, of course, those gaming girls who are as attracted to gorgeous half-dressed babes as us guys. Still, I'm pretty sure that The Simbul isn't always shown with gratuitous displays of cleavage, and exposed shapely leg, to cater to the D&D-playing lesbian demographic...) Today, there seems to be a general assumption that girl gamers are either ugly or crazy. Never heard that one. Gamer girls seem significantly less crazy than gamer boys, in my experience. And most of them make better looking girls than gamer boys as well. :)
Lord Karsus 06-25-07, 02:12 PM	Never heard that one. Gamer girls seem significantly less crazy than gamer boys, in my experience. And most of them make better looking girls than gamer boys as well. :) -Well, I do have a sister who is both ugly and crazy.
souldnce9 06-25-07, 03:15 PM	:eek: That is mean LK! If I were your sister I'd slap you silly. Thank you Soltares!!!! There is plenty of male eye candy in the realms too! ;) Isn't that right Dan?
XHereticX 06-25-07, 03:45 PM	I assumed the opposite, that the reason the Realms had so many scantily-clad statuesque hot chicks with bosums the size of my head had less to do with attracting female gamers and more to do with attracting the eye of dudes. (Excepting, of course, those gaming girls who are as attracted to gorgeous half-dressed babes as us guys. Still, I'm pretty sure that The Simbul isn't always shown with gratuitous displays of cleavage, and exposed shapely leg, to cater to the D&D-playing lesbian demographic...) Never heard that one. Gamer girls seem significantly less crazy than gamer boys, in my experience. And most of them make better looking girls than gamer boys as well. :) Yeah, that too;) It certainly attracted a horny teen like me:D
Zandilar 06-25-07, 06:10 PM	Heya, Never heard that one. Gamer girls seem significantly less crazy than gamer boys, in my experience. And most of them make better looking girls than gamer boys as well. :) Well you must have heard "no girls on the internets!" (Don't ask me why internet is pluralized in such a sentence, 'cause it sure beats me.)? You'd have to be pretty isolated not to hear the ugly/crazy stereotype... It's applied equally to girls into any game at all (RPG or Computer Games). The former is more common these days, though. *sigh* *casts invisibility and joins her sisters*
XHereticX 06-25-07, 06:29 PM	Heya, Well you must have heard "no girls on the internets!" (Don't ask me why internet is pluralized in such a sentence, 'cause it sure beats me.)? You'd have to be pretty isolated not to hear the ugly/crazy stereotype... It's applied equally to girls into any game at all (RPG or Computer Games). The former is more common these days, though. *sigh* *casts invisibility and joins her sisters* Now the fun part is trying to figure out if you are either ugly, or crazy, or both;)
souldnce9 06-25-07, 06:31 PM	I hate stereotypes, and those that incourage them be damned! :ahem:
XHereticX 06-25-07, 06:34 PM	I hate stereotypes, and those that incourage them be damned! :ahem: Why...I already AM damned. 13 times too, the 4th hurt like hell, literally :devil:
Zandilar 06-25-07, 07:16 PM	Heya, Now the fun part is trying to figure out if you are either ugly, or crazy, or both;) Wouldn't you like to know... ;)
Karsus the Mad 06-25-07, 07:19 PM	Sweet <whatever> you turned it gender based!. I hate stereotypes, and those that incourage them be damned! So do I. Sadly, it's freekin' reverse stereotype...just wait...
Lord Karsus 06-26-07, 12:40 AM	So do I. Sadly, it's freekin' reverse stereotype...just wait... -Here, here... Why...I already AM damned. 13 times too, the 4th hurt like hell, literally :devil: -Don't make me damn you a 14th time. :cool: :eek: That is mean LK! If I were your sister I'd slap you silly. -She's a tomboy, so I don't ever feel bad when I smack her back. ;)
souldnce9 06-26-07, 04:04 AM	Siblings........ :nonono: I'll openly admit that I'm crazy! Crazy enough to leave Waterdeep and head north. What was I thinking? :blink:
msatran 06-26-07, 03:21 PM	I will say that Zandilar has every right to be upset after a couple nasty comments like that. While a lot of female gamers do have subscriptions instead of issues, I think it's a whole hog stupid assumption to assume that it applies to everyone.
Sullivan 06-26-07, 05:09 PM	Ya know, this whole thing would be cleared up right quick if someone just gave Storm a spanking.
XHereticX 06-26-07, 07:57 PM	- -Don't make me damn you a 14th time. :cool: Plz do, I really wanna get out of that unlucky number stab, plzzzz....:mad: I was just joking about the whole stereotype thing. I don't really believe them and I was just sharing a little bit of pop-humor;)
Zandilar 06-26-07, 08:20 PM	Heya, :raincloud I smell trolls.
XHereticX 06-26-07, 08:23 PM	Heya, :raincloud I smell trolls. Trolls, where??? Let me get my +7 holy flame sword and smite them.
BrennonGoldeye 06-26-07, 08:24 PM	I think that smell might be the ozone that follows The Simbul everywhere...:)
Sullivan 06-26-07, 11:54 PM	I smell trolls. Phf. I was joking about the spanking. Everyone seems to take the original post too seriously.
Zsych 06-27-07, 03:31 AM	I had a mild desire to encourage the sexist war here, but I'm not feeling energetic(and I just recently did that on another forum, and had all the women and guys suffering from 'holier than thou' syndrome screaming at me. LOL. My opinion on this is just that iconic characters, whoever they are, shouldn't actually be killed(unless its the Simbul, her death would please me greatly :P)
Zandilar 06-27-07, 07:12 AM	Heya, Phf. I was joking about the spanking. Everyone seems to take the original post too seriously. The original post was a troll. It should have been ignored. I wasn't taking exception specifically to you, by the way. :)
ikki 06-27-07, 07:28 AM	Heya, The original post was a troll. It should have been ignored. I wasn't taking exception specifically to you, by the way. :) This was what, 3rd or 4th time you had to point that out. Now, drop that silliness or get out.. but to stay and keep on slinging mud around you isn't exactly becoming of a lady, right? Of course i forgive you :) http://blog.saush.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/rose_front.png
runestar 06-27-07, 08:35 AM	With regards to the post about Larloch's int score being too low, I would like to inquire as to how that is the case? Lords of darkness gave him an int score of 34. When you deduct 6 from headband, 2 for being a lich, 5 from lv ups (remember that he was still using the pre-ELH epic progression rules), that still gives him an int of 21. That either means he has a base int of 16 and read a tome of intellect of +5 (unlikely, as that was not mentioned), or had a base int of 18, and the designers gave him +3 to all mental stats to represent his vast intellect and wisdom gained over the years. Either way, he actually has a few spare points of int unaccounted for. Am I missing something?:confused:
Bluenose 06-27-07, 09:54 AM	With regards to the post about Larloch's int score being too low, I would like to inquire as to how that is the case? Lords of darkness gave him an int score of 34. When you deduct 6 from headband, 2 for being a lich, 5 from lv ups (remember that he was still using the pre-ELH epic progression rules), that still gives him an int of 21. That either means he has a base int of 16 and read a tome of intellect of +5 (unlikely, as that was not mentioned), or had a base int of 18, and the designers gave him +3 to all mental stats to represent his vast intellect and wisdom gained over the years. Either way, he actually has a few spare points of int unaccounted for. Am I missing something?:confused: Aging effects could give him +3Int if he reached Venerable before turning into a lich.
Soltares 06-27-07, 01:30 PM	Zandilar You'd have to be pretty isolated not to hear the ugly/crazy stereotype... It's applied equally to girls into any game at all (RPG or Computer Games). 'Isolated' in the sense that the friends I game with (male and female) are in their thirties and mostly married. Girls, gamer or otherwise, aren't regarded as more or less ugly or crazy than the rest of us. I'm sure that the prepubescent 'girls are icky / have cooties' crowd exist, and some of them even play D&D (or, yanno, try, as much as their limited social skills permit), but I don't hang out at the grade school, so yeah, 'isolated.' The only stereotype I know of involving girls in computer games is that the vast majority of female toons online are played by guys, and the skimpier the outfit / more outrageous and explicit the behavior, the more likely it is to be played by a guy (and the more likely it is that the dude playing 'SexKittenn17' is, a) a perv / skeev / freak, b) 12 years old, c) a virgin who knows nothing about what he's talking about and / or d) annoying as all get-out). Plus there's always the exciting possibility that it could be, e) 40 year old male federal agent posing as 14 year old girl and trying to get you to cyber with 'her' so that he can make his monthly quota of sex-crime collars... :)
souldnce9 06-27-07, 02:03 PM	It is good to hear a voice of maturity! :D My group is fairly similar and I don't see the stereo type either.
XHereticX 06-27-07, 03:25 PM	adults:rolleyes:
BrennonGoldeye 06-27-07, 05:42 PM	mortals:rolleyes:
XHereticX 06-27-07, 05:58 PM	mortals:rolleyes: Which I thankfully, am not one.
captaincarot 06-28-07, 02:46 AM	one way you can tell that the original subject of this post is correct, is to read the core source books, they are all female. not one of them reffers to a charachter as he.
cato 06-28-07, 08:13 AM	Well unless I am missing something, Larloch, Telamont and Karsus are the most powerful spellcasters around.
Zandilar 06-28-07, 09:25 AM	Heya, one way you can tell that the original subject of this post is correct, is to read the core source books, they are all female. not one of them reffers to a charachter as he. Say what?! The forests and hills are home to fierce and cunning creatures, such as bloodthirsty owlbears and malicious displacer beasts. But more cunning and powerful than these monsters is the ranger, a skilled hunter and stalker. He knows the woods as if they were his home (as indeed they are), and he knows his prey in deadly detail. The sorcerer chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the sorcerer advances in level, his familiar also increases in power. For example, Tordek is wearing scale mail. As shown on Table 6-7: Armor and Shields, this armor cuts his maximum Dex bonus to AC to +3, and gives him a -4 armor check penalty (and would cut his speed to 15 feet, were he not a dwarf and thus able to move normally even when encumbered by armor or a load). Generally speaking the Core Books dance around pronouns, either using the second person, or using "the character" in place of a pronoun. Specific examples use the gender assigned to the class - for example, every time "the paladin" is refered to, the character is a she, since the Iconic Paladin is Alhandra, while Redgar is the Iconic Fighter, so everytime a fighter is referenced it's a he. Same goes for Kursk (Barbarian), Gimble (Bard), Jozan (cleric), Vadania (druid), Ember (monk), Soveliss (ranger), Lidda (rogue), Hennet (sorcerer), and Mialee (wizard). Lets see... Males we have Redgar, Kursk, Gimble, Jozan, Soveliss, and Hennet. Females we have Alhandra, Vadania, Ember, Lidda, and Mialee. 6 males, 5 females - just in the Player's Handbook. (I am not counting Tordek (dwarven fighter) and Nebbin (gnome illusionist), but they're also iconic characters. I don't know if there are any female iconic characters of that type... But if I did, it would be 8 males to 5 females - unless there are some extra female iconics I don't know about.) I am not sure, but I think I remember something about WotC having a policy to alternate pronouns on section - so that might also be the case in some parts of the Core Rulebooks. (Oh dear, I just bit the bait... *sigh* I'll never learn at this rate.)
Karsus the Mad 06-28-07, 11:03 AM	With regards to the post about Larloch's int score being too low, I would like to inquire as to how that is the case? Lords of darkness gave him an int score of 34. When you deduct 6 from headband, 2 for being a lich, 5 from lv ups (remember that he was still using the pre-ELH epic progression rules), that still gives him an int of 21. That either means he has a base int of 16 and read a tome of intellect of +5 (unlikely, as that was not mentioned), or had a base int of 18, and the designers gave him +3 to all mental stats to represent his vast intellect and wisdom gained over the years. Either way, he actually has a few spare points of int unaccounted for. Am I missing something? I didn't say it's too low, merely said it's lower than what it could be in reply to what I assumed the Simbul was referring to as "unaccounted for ability boosts".
Soltares 06-28-07, 11:18 AM	Say what?! The same thing came up when White Wolf started printing their books, which alternated pronouns. Some male readers, unused to seeing the female pronoun, ended up thinking that the books were *entirely* written with female pronouns (and posted critical diatribes against WW based on that misperception), instead of looking more closely and realizing that it was a 50/50 split between male and female pronouns. The stuff they were used to seeing just glossed by, and the stuff that they weren't used to seeing jumped out at them. It's the way the human mind works. It's also why people suck at editing their own work. We tend to gloss over the familiar. :) I imagine within a few decades, with more and more writers alternating gender pronouns, any older text that *doesn't* alternate pronouns will 'jump out' and 'look wrong' to the newer generation of readers.
captaincarot 06-28-07, 11:26 AM	The stuff they were used to seeing just glossed by, and the stuff that they weren't used to seeing jumped out at them. It's the way the human mind works. this may well explain things then. but i've got me eye on em i tell you, i'm watching em, they'll not sneak one past me.
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 07:01 PM	Well unless I am missing something, Larloch, Telamont and Karsus are the most powerful spellcasters around. -Telamont really doesn't belong in the company of Me/Us and Larloch. Replace him with, say, Ioulaum. -And, to stay on (semi)topic: Oh my G-d! Naval vessels are given the female pronoun! How sexist! States are referred to as 'her', and not 'him'! How sexist! The car salesman told me to, "Hop in and take 'er for a spin". How sexist! :crazy:
XHereticX 06-28-07, 07:34 PM	Almost everything I read in D&D books with no names is female, I have never thought much about it but it may be a marketing ploy. Darn it gaming companies, you already have most guys addicted to WoW, D&D, and CS (like me), why go after those poor innocent girls and take them away from shopping and makeup, and throw them inside gaming????:mad:
Karsus the Mad 06-28-07, 09:41 PM	-Telamont really doesn't belong in the company of Me/Us and Larloch. Replace him with, say, Ioulaum. Ioulaum's better than Telly. I haven't been able to get ppv on him for months:gel: -And, to stay on (semi)topic: Oh my G-d! Naval vessels are given the female pronoun! How sexist! States are referred to as 'her', and not 'him'! How sexist! The car salesman told me to, "Hop in and take 'er for a spin". How sexist! :crazy: Funny how such things aren't brought up in the debates eh:P Good thing to. Enough bs is brought up by those that for some sad reason care about it to begin with. Might as well not toss more dung on it. Leave the poo poo alone and eventually the flies will starve and die. Does everyone good to rid humanity of such ilk.
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 09:52 PM	Ioulaum's better than Telly. -Or, don't you mean, Lord Shadow!? :: Cue Shocking Music :: :P
XHereticX 06-28-07, 09:53 PM	[QUOTE=Lord Karsus;12895894]-Telamont really doesn't belong in the company of Me/Us and Larloch. Replace him with, say, Ioulaum. QUOTE] Iounum is a giant undead brain, not the best of companions. Get Shoon. He is actually in a pretty sexy body right now and some non-nethernese influence could do you guys some good.
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 10:00 PM	Get Shoon. He is actually in a pretty sexy body right now and some non-nethernese influence could do you guys some good. -He is currently an Elf. Should it make me feel awkward that it's a he inside that body, and an ancient, moldy he at that?
XHereticX 06-28-07, 10:02 PM	-He is currently an Elf. Should it make me feel awkward that it's a he inside that body, and an ancient, moldy he at that? Nah, feel free to get cuddly with him;)
Karsus the Mad 06-28-07, 10:43 PM	-Or, don't you mean, Lord Shadow!? :: Cue Shocking Music :: :P :confused: what service provider is that from!
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 10:50 PM	:confused: what service provider is that from! -Stolen satalite feed from the MLB. I don't know why they have satalites orbiting Toril, though. They're up to something, and I can't quite place my 1/3 finger on it.
captaincarot 06-29-07, 02:29 AM	-Stolen satalite feed from the MLB. I don't know why they have satalites orbiting Toril, though. They're up to something, and I can't quite place my 1/3 finger on it. it's so they can rewrite all of the books into an entirely female perspective. it's a conspiracy i tell you we're being frozen out of some thing else we invented. as for cars being female. well duh obviously, why else would guys spend their whole time trying to get inside a nice one:eek:
Zsych 06-29-07, 04:10 AM	I remember the first time I was reading the writeup for a sorceror, and it kept going .. she this, she that... and I was thinking... what about the Sorceror makes you think that it should be a she by default? He worked fine as a general pronoun(did Jesus object to it? :)), or a specific pronoun depending on context. She was always a gender-specific pronoun. ... Not that I mind people trying to be politically corrent or whatever, but its a bit disturbing, when you're not used to it(and adding confusion to another word is hardly necessary).
XHereticX 06-29-07, 08:31 AM	OK CAPTAIN VIRGIN OF THE NERD SQUAD...DID YOUR MOMMY MAKE YOU BREAKFAST YET? DOES SHE PLAY DRESS UP WITH YOU? DOES SHE DRESS UP LIKE A HALF-ELF BAR MAIDEN? Yes, I am sure you and the rest of your inbred anti-D&D evangelical hillbilly relatives feel the same way my friend. No, I actually have a life, I am on here only because its summer and I'm bored, and I prefer to keep my parents out of my life thank you.
Karsus the Mad 06-29-07, 08:37 AM	Don't feed it. Let it starve. Besides, it broke GD's grammatical pet peeves. It forgot to include an ' in "you're", not to mention anything of the "e". I remember the first time I was reading the writeup for a sorceror, and it kept going .. she this, she that... and I was thinking... what about the Sorceror makes you think that it should be a she by default? I never thought about it before, but I've always thought female when it came to sorcerers (free spirited lass, vibrant power surging around her, ala Simbulesque), and males when it came to wizards (old man bent with age and the wisdom of the ages in his eyes, etc).
Zandilar 06-29-07, 09:37 AM	Heya, I remember the first time I was reading the writeup for a sorceror, and it kept going .. she this, she that... and I was thinking... what about the Sorceror makes you think that it should be a she by default? Look it up. Hennet is the Iconic Sorcerer. The sorcerer write up in the PHB refers to the sorcerer as "he". You might be thinking of the Wizard entry. Mialee is the Iconic Wizard, and she's a she. He worked fine as a general pronoun(did Jesus object to it? :)), or a specific pronoun depending on context. She was always a gender-specific pronoun. I think it's still correct (I thought they had changed it, but I was proven wrong). However, there are problems with using the male pronoun as "gender neutral"... Either it neuters males, or it makes females invisible. I think a better way needs to be found.
captaincarot 06-29-07, 10:32 AM	Heya, I think it's still correct (I thought they had changed it, but I was proven wrong). However, there are problems with using the male pronoun as "gender neutral"... Either it neuters males, or it makes females invisible. I think a better way needs to be found. but using he is the correct for of english, unless you are specifically referring to a female then she should not be used. this is the way the english language developed over a few thousand years. then you americans came along and started making a right mess of it all in the name of pollytikle correktness.:P :D
Zandilar 06-29-07, 11:01 AM	Heya, but using he is the correct for of english, unless you are specifically referring to a female then she should not be used. this is the way the english language developed over a few thousand years. then you americans came along and started making a right mess of it all in the name of pollytikle correktness.:P :D Excuse me? I'm from Brightwater, and previously from the Yuirwood! I know not of this America you speak of. :P :D :cool: (Actually, as has probably been well established - I'm Australian.) He is correct, but what I said about it still stands. There has to be a better way than castrating every male and rendering every female invisible. (Maybe the bolding there will make it clear that I think using he as gender neutral is as detrimental to males as it is to females.)
captaincarot 06-29-07, 11:45 AM	Heya, (Actually, as has probably been well established - I'm Australian.) you see i'm quite new here and didn't know this :D but it's still the americans fault :P
pokie 06-29-07, 01:25 PM	Let it go on record that the title of this thread sounds like one of the funniest and wrongest thread titles I have ever seen.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 01:27 PM	you see i'm quite new here and didn't know this :D but it's still the americans fault :P I'm chinese and not even a citizen, and I speak english better than most Americans, so don't judge by nationality Carot. Americans didn't really mess up english until Hip-Hop was born anyway;)
pokie 06-29-07, 01:30 PM	I'm chinese and not even a citizen, and I speak english better than most Americans, so don't judge by nationality Carot. Americans didn't really mess up english until Hip-Hop was born anyway;) It is the fault of our moronic youth to be seduced by hip-hop anyway.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 01:31 PM	It is the fault of our moronic youth to be seduced by hip-hop anyway. I certainly haven't. For me, Hip-Hop is just comedy music. My REAL music is rock, metal, rock, metal, rap/rock you get the point...
pokie 06-29-07, 01:33 PM	You haven't what? I am not blaming anyone here, just the usa society in general.
souldnce9 06-29-07, 01:50 PM	Americans didn't really mess up english until Hip-Hop was born anyway Are you trying to start arguments kid? :P Hip-Hop didn't mess up English it is enrichening English. It is a wonderful music to express ones self. Of course "Hip-Pop" doesn't count. Of course this is way off topic though. Oh well.
captaincarot 06-29-07, 01:52 PM	Are you trying to start arguments kid? :P no but it looks like i have hee hee heee!:P :D
pokie 06-29-07, 02:44 PM	Are you trying to start arguments kid? :P Hip-Hop didn't mess up English it is enrichening English. It is a wonderful music to express ones self. Of course "Hip-Pop" doesn't count. Of course this is way off topic though. Oh well. I admire English language (I'm Russian) as Tolkien's LotR introduced it to me. I firmly believe that the ghetto culture of the USA is an atrocity, a blight upon the once fair face of English language.
souldnce9 06-29-07, 04:43 PM	How could you consider Hip-Hop a Ghetto culture? :mad: This is an ignorant view. Especially with underground Hip-Hop. It is the Hip-Hop artists that are using their music to speak out against hypocrisies in this country. Rock & Roll used to carry this edge, but has played into the pop culture of American society. You guys are probably looking at MTV to base your judgments, it isn't really fair.
pokie 06-29-07, 04:45 PM	Mayhaps ancient hip-hop was alright. Haven't been there, haven't seen that. Its current incarnation is ... I will just hold my tongue.
Karsus the Mad 06-29-07, 06:03 PM	you see i'm quite new here and didn't know this :D but it's still the americans fault :P That's what I hear whenever some disgruntled drunk decides his decisions and consequences aren't really his fault. Bloody sad bastards think such. How could you consider Hip-Hop a Ghetto culture? This is an ignorant view. Especially with underground Hip-Hop. It is the Hip-Hop artists that are using their music to speak out against hypocrisies in this country. Because litterally everytime I have been mugged (as in some dumb crackhead, drunk, or just a teen that feels he/she has to prove something stupid tries to rob me of my hard earned money utilizing a pathetic excuse for a knife) has been in a "ghetto", wears clothing commonly associated to the stereotype, speaks the uneducated gibberish that a sad few attempted to get recognized as a "language". Frankly, I hate stereotypes, but whenever I see someone wearing a pair of pants that makes them look like their bowels dropped 50 pounds of crap, I get a tad bit self protective. Sorry to anyone offended....I am still really upset about the incident last week that led to me getting my butt beaten into next month...
XHereticX 06-29-07, 06:15 PM	How could you consider Hip-Hop a Ghetto culture? :mad: This is an ignorant view. Especially with underground Hip-Hop. It is the Hip-Hop artists that are using their music to speak out against hypocrisies in this country. Rock & Roll used to carry this edge, but has played into the pop culture of American society. You guys are probably looking at MTV to base your judgments, it isn't really fair. Ok, that is a pretty twisted view of society. Rock is what is used for that, no, not emo rock, I mean like old school type rock (yes such bands still exist) and even metal. Just listen to Genesis (now Land of Confusion) by Disturbed, you will get the message. Maybe that was true about Hip-Hop in the past (which wasen't all that bad actually), but today, it just talks about conformist and popular crap and really, most of the so called "artists" just use digital editing to make themselves sound better. No talent, just cheap tricks.
Lord Karsus 06-29-07, 06:57 PM	That's what I hear whenever some disgruntled drunk decides his decisions and consequences aren't really his fault. Bloody sad bastards think such. -Yeah, I hate that. Sorry to anyone offended....I am still really upset about the incident last week that led to me getting my butt beaten into next month... -Damn, what happened? Do I have to send Brennon, or maybe Shadez to shadow you and provide assistance when neccesary? Americans didn't really mess up english until Hip-Hop was born anyway;) -Like, that is so radically wrong, dude. Cali surferdude talk, like existed before ebonics, you know? :P Just listen to Genesis (now Land of Confusion) by Disturbed, you will get the message. -It's Land of Confusion, by Genesis, which was recently covered by Disturbed. -Oh, by the way, Heretic, thanks for quoting that wayward poster. I didn't get to see it before the WizO's deleted it. :D
wtf_thats_my_head 06-29-07, 07:07 PM	i am german i live in usa hip hop,rap just is annoying no point >yo i did it a hard man know wat i say lik tha hoe post thing srcewy
XHereticX 06-29-07, 07:14 PM	[QUOTE=Lord Karsus;12908625. -Oh, by the way, Heretic, thanks for quoting that wayward poster. I didn't get to see it before the WizO's deleted it. :D[/QUOTE] Who? Francius, or that other annoying prick. Or the YourLosers dude? Yeah, no problem, do I get a raise for this?
Zandilar 06-29-07, 08:07 PM	Heya, Ok, that is a pretty twisted view of society. Rock is what is used for that, no, not emo rock, I mean like old school type rock (yes such bands still exist) and even metal. Just listen to Genesis (now Land of Confusion) by Disturbed, you will get the message. Land of Confusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KW8DRSvEoQ) by Disturbed. Land of Confusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MzShg7yXik) by Genesis. The latter link there, is the video clip to the original song from the album Invisible Touch - one of my all time favorite albums. Genesis is an awesome band, I have to say. I don't mind Disturbed's version, but it's just a cover, not the original. (Yes, the song is just as relevant now as it was back in 1986, which is probably why Disturbed did the cover.) More information: Land of Confusion on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_confusion). Addressing what this was about though - no one type of music holds the "torch" for addressing issues in today's society. Every genre of music adds something significant to the cultural whole.
Mordakay of Thay 06-29-07, 08:14 PM	Ok, that is a pretty twisted view of society. Rock is what is used for that, no, not emo rock, I mean like old school type rock (yes such bands still exist) and even metal. Just listen to Genesis (now Land of Confusion) by Disturbed, you will get the message. Maybe that was true about Hip-Hop in the past (which wasen't all that bad actually), but today, it just talks about conformist and popular crap and really, most of the so called "artists" just use digital editing to make themselves sound better. No talent, just cheap tricks. I'm a rocker myself,but the thing about hip-hop is so not true...
XHereticX 06-29-07, 08:17 PM	I'm a rocker myself,but the thing about hip-hop is so not true... No, I like some hip-hop, and it does have a lot of cultural significance behind it. But I always have this funny feeling every time I hear a new hip-hop song on the radio that there wasen't really any talent put into it, just bling and techo-editing. Genesis's version is decent, but I still prefer Disturbed's much, much more, as I am a huge fan of Black Metal.
pokie 06-30-07, 12:59 AM	Heya, Land of Confusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KW8DRSvEoQ) by Disturbed. Land of Confusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MzShg7yXik) by Genesis. The latter link there, is the video clip to the original song from the album Invisible Touch - one of my all time favorite albums. Genesis is an awesome band, I have to say. I don't mind Disturbed's version, but it's just a cover, not the original. (Yes, the song is just as relevant now as it was back in 1986, which is probably why Disturbed did the cover.) More information: Land of Confusion on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_confusion). Addressing what this was about though - no one type of music holds the "torch" for addressing issues in today's society. Every genre of music adds something significant to the cultural whole. I R KONPHUZED
The Simbul 06-30-07, 02:33 AM	What unaccounted for ability score boost (other than him having a Con score to begin with)? His Int is lower than it could be.Larloch has a listed INT score of 34. As a human, the highest base INT score he could have began with would have been 18. He has 20 class levels (20HD) and 12 Epic Level Benefits (See the pre-ELH Epic Advancement rules in the FRCS). All of his Epic Level Benefits are in the increased spell level option, which means the maximum number of level-based ability score bonuses he could have accrued under the ruleset his stats were written with is 5. Assuming they all go into INT, that gives us a base score of 23. Being a Lich, he recieves another +2 INT, which gives us a base score of 25. His (ridiculous) ioun stones give him a +6 enhancement bonus to INT, which gives us a score of 31. That leaves us with three points that are unaccounted for. In terms of potential inherent bonuses, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book established an example precedent that all wish-enhanced ability score adjustments are to be noted in the special qualities section of the stat block. Alternatively, when tomes are used other D&D sources have set the precedent that they are accounted for by listing the tome in the equipment of the creature/NPC in question, usually with a parenthetical caveat that it is "already used". In the case of Larloch we have no such account of his using either option. Therefore if he has employed inherent bonuses then they are unaccounted for As for potential aging penalties/benefits prior to becoming a Lich, they are impossible with his listed statistics and abilities. If he achieved an age of venerable prior to becoming a Lich then he would have accrued a -6 penalty to his STR and DEX scores. In the case of Dexterity, his listed score is 24, which if reverse calculated gives us a base DEX score of 18 without magic item enhancements. Meanwhile his STR score is listed at 18, and he possesses no bonuses--magical or otherwise--to enhance it. Therefore, Larloch clearly was a Lich before the onset of old age took effect. What is irritating here is that numerous other NPCs--specifically Elminster, Khelben, and the Seven Sisters--have all been denied their full due in ability score adjustment points that they would have recieved from their total character level, as per the 2E->3E character conversion manual, whereas Larloch apparently receives free ability boosts out of thin air. Elminster is missing three ability score adjustment points and is deprived of any listed default magic item to boost his INT score, whereas Larloch gets three free ability score adjustment points for no apparent reason other than being Netherese and is given a non-standard slotless magic item to boost his INT score to boot.His wealth? That's easy. He's mentally taken over 60 liches (most being former rulers of entire cities [add in wealth chart]), was once the ruler of a Netherese enclave, and one servitor known to be an archwizard (having his own enclave, and all the wealth that entails). I'd find it even more laughable if he had the standard "NPC wealth" crap chart. His "wealth" is perfectly understandable given the context of his situation.The problem is I could easily churn out a dozen examples of NPCs who should have a command of wealth equal to or even greater than that of Larloch, and yet who are still confined to the standard NPC wealth limits and whose equipment selection (at least in terms of boosting the stats that matter) are FAR below what is normal for any other NPC of their class and role.
captaincarot 06-30-07, 02:47 AM	That's what I hear whenever some disgruntled drunk decides his decisions and consequences aren't really his fault. Bloody sad bastards think such. . are you really serioulsy suggesting that because i speak the truth, i am some bloody sad bastard. had you any experience of britain, you would notice the rampant americanisation of it's current youth, which is associated with a degradation in both written and spoken english. there are people on here who do not speak english as their native language. some of them don't get the words in the correct order and they make spelling mistakes. This is acceptable from someone who's first instincts are to put them in the wrong order because their native language isn't english. for a child who is a native english speaker, who will be awarded some qualification on leaving school, which is nominally equivalent to mine or even superior, to get these things wrong, is utterly rediculous. i have seen this happen. political correctness is a disease of the mind concieved of in america, which is spreading throughout the world. it promotes mediocrity above excellence and in the case of the current british education system, is so scared of telling someone they can't do some thing that they have created unfailable exams. so yes it is the fault of americans in the same way that slavery is the fault of the africans, the people who created it get the blame. as for the lentil munching morons who imported the concept into britain, personally i would encase their feet in concrete and cast them from the cliffs of dover.
Stigger 06-30-07, 03:54 AM	Be fair... Cockney was screwing the English Language long before hip-hop was even a glimmer in some musician's (and I use the term loosely, sorry, goth boy here) eyes and ears. It happens pretty much every generation, at least in the modern era, and probably was happening long before that... the modern era starting somewhere around the 1800's as far as I'm concerned. Its one of the ways that language evolves and changes... kids these days, think they invented everything... :tongue:
captaincarot 06-30-07, 04:16 AM	Be fair... Cockney was screwing the English Language long before hip-hop was even a glimmer in some musician's (and I use the term loosely, sorry, goth boy here) eyes and ears. to be fair cockney aint english. proper english is what is spoken in yorkshire, the rest of em just corrupted the language from how it is spoken in gods own country.
Stigger 06-30-07, 05:51 AM	Sure, right... though I doubt much of London would agree with that one... ;)
Balafre 06-30-07, 08:45 AM	never thought we would be speaking about Hiphop on a D&D forum I'm into Hiphop, reggea roots, jazz, blues, world music (I like a lot African and arab music) and I also like to listen Rage Against the machine because of their musical swagger and it sounds like experimental rap over heavy guitars I play D&D with people who listen Hard Rock or Dark Metal and all that good stuff We dont argue over music, we play D&D and that's what is uniting us right? anyways, let's get back to that feminist conspiration to get rid of all powerful males characters, it's a lot more funny to read :D :D
pokie 06-30-07, 12:31 PM	.... political correctness is a disease of the mind concieved of in america, which is spreading throughout the world. it promotes mediocrity above excellence and in the case of the current british education system, is so scared of telling someone they can't do some thing that they have created unfailable exams. ..... I agree with that part. Also, spell check next time, man! Your own imperfect grammar jeopardizes your argument. ;)
pokie 06-30-07, 12:32 PM	As for the original topic, it sounds so bafflingly ridiculous that I have nothing to say. Except that I approve if both chicks are hot.
captaincarot 06-30-07, 12:43 PM	I agree with that part. Also, spell check next time, man! Your own imperfect grammar jeopardizes your argument. ;) durned critics, i'm a physicist, we're not supposed to be able to read and write properly, it gets in the way of understanding concepts which don't make any sense at all to anyone, even the person who invented them. I didn't take the study of english past the most basic level required to get into university, plus it supports my argument. If my spelling and grammar are so bad just think what we have to contend with from the people i am castigating as products of a failed system. they come out supposedly qualified but nigh on illiterate at a practical level.
pokie 06-30-07, 01:31 PM	I concur wholeheartedly - the trend is even worse in the USA. Btw, I am getting PhD in statistics, but that doesn't hamper my writing ;).
XHereticX 06-30-07, 04:17 PM	never thought we would be speaking about Hiphop on a D&D forum I'm into Hiphop, reggea roots, jazz, blues, world music (I like a lot African and arab music) and I also like to listen Rage Against the machine because of their musical swagger and it sounds like experimental rap over heavy guitars I play D&D with people who listen Hard Rock or Dark Metal and all that good stuff We dont argue over music, we play D&D and that's what is uniting us right? anyways, let's get back to that feminist conspiration to get rid of all powerful males characters, it's a lot more funny to read :D :D One of my best friends is preppy and listens to only modern hip-hop/pop, and I get along perfectly with him. So its never a problem for me. Yeah, about the whole use of her/she and al lthat stuff in sourcebooks, its just a marketing strategy to attract female gamers, nothing more.
Lord Karsus 06-30-07, 08:16 PM	Who? Francius, or that other annoying prick. Or the YourLosers dude? -YourLosers. Why, what did Francius have to say? I should look back a page or two, now... Yeah, no problem, do I get a raise for this? -Hmm...I'll think about it...
XHereticX 06-30-07, 08:18 PM	check out the does WoTC hate FR thread, it is locked now, probably why...
Lord Karsus 06-30-07, 08:20 PM	check out the does WoTC hate FR thread, it is locked now, probably why... -Let me go check it out...Lets see here... EDIT: Yup, Francius was being typical Francius...:rolleyes:
msatran 07-01-07, 10:35 AM	No, wait. Let's TALK about this. What Hip Hop culture did was it brought out a lot more aggression and openness towards aggressive issues. Now let's look at the Forgotten Realms in D+D 3.5. Sound familiar? Is Hip Hop a patriarchal reaction to a perceived matriarchal world? Absolutely. Is that world intrinsic to several things about african/american culture? Sure is. So is there really any difference between Hip Hop attitudes and the attitudes of some of the updated Realms NPCs? You can say there isn't, but there is. Grand History of the Realms is an attempt to eliminate that. As Hip Hop wore on, it lost it's MESSAGE, and became about *****es and hoes and pimps and bling. But that wasn't where it started. So let's look at that book, and say what really needs to be said from a hip hop perspective. "Don't call it a comeback! I been here for years! Rockin your ***** with suckers and beer! Making the tears rain down like a monsoon Listen to the bass go boom! Explosion, It's overpowering... OVER THE COMPETITION I'M TOWERING!" LL Cool J-Mama Said Knock You Out. And it will be.
GothicDan 07-01-07, 12:33 PM	i'm a physicist, we're not supposed to be able to read and write properly, it gets in the way of understanding concepts which don't make any sense at all to anyone, even the person who invented them. I refuse to let you perpetuate such lies. LOOK AT ME! I shall be a physicist! I can smack down English majors! Filthy beyotches. DOWN WITH THE STEREOTYPES!
Stigger 07-02-07, 03:04 AM	*snickers at most of this*
ikki 07-02-07, 06:16 AM	How could you consider Hip-Hop a Ghetto culture? :mad: This is an ignorant view. Especially with underground Hip-Hop. It is the Hip-Hop artists that are using their music to speak out against hypocrisies in this country. Rock & Roll used to carry this edge, but has played into the pop culture of American society. You guys are probably looking at MTV to base your judgments, it isn't really fair. You would have got to be kidding me, its all made for and by black-trash... ghetto mentality thru and thru..
ikki 07-02-07, 06:24 AM	Larloch has a listed INT score of 34. As a human, the highest base INT score he could have began with would have been 18. He has 20 class levels (20HD) and 12 Epic Level Benefits (See the pre-ELH Epic Advancement rules in the FRCS). All of his Epic Level Benefits are in the increased spell level option, which means the maximum number of level-based ability score bonuses he could have accrued under the ruleset his stats were written with is 5. Assuming they all go into INT, that gives us a base score of 23. Being a Lich, he recieves another +2 INT, which gives us a base score of 25. His (ridiculous) ioun stones give him a +6 enhancement bonus to INT, which gives us a score of 31. That leaves us with three points that are unaccounted for. Letsee... 18+5(wishes)+8(levels/4)+2(lich)+2(aging)+6(item)=41 So if anything he seems to have started out with 11...
Karsus the Mad 07-02-07, 07:04 AM	Letsee... 18+5(wishes)+8(levels/4)+2(lich)+2(aging)+6(item)=41 So if anything he seems to have started out with 11... +5 from levels...his write-up using the pre-epic level rules in the FRCS. 18 (base?)+5 (level) +2 (lich) +6 (item) = 31. Inherent and aging bonuses are not listed. However, I assume he has +3 either from aging bonuses (without penalities due to longevity magic. The difference of 3 might just be coincidence tho') or inherent that simply got overlooked and wasn't placed. I find his spells per day to be in error also (if I'm remembering correctly).
XHereticX 07-02-07, 08:12 AM	I refuse to let you perpetuate such lies. LOOK AT ME! I shall be a physicist! I can smack down English majors! Filthy beyotches. DOWN WITH THE STEREOTYPES! real physicist vs physicist in training...hmm, who should I trust???:P Hip-Hop wasen't always garbage. Originally it was just an expression of modern african american culture. Its just when the status-quo starting making its moves it became less about expressing your inner emotions and more about "pimping" and all that good stuff.
pokie 07-02-07, 12:25 PM	I think I pointed out that I am a statistician with excellent English skills... (when compared to the sub par level of the general populace).
souldnce9 07-02-07, 09:32 PM	You would have got to be kidding me, its all made for and by black-trash... ghetto mentality thru and thru.. Wow! :OMG! I don't even know what to say to this! I am really shocked. I wasn't going to respond to this specific post any more because everyone is entitled to there opinion, but that is flat out racist.
pokie 07-02-07, 10:11 PM	Actually, while I realize the roots of hip hop are different, I tend to agree with the above statement given the state of this music style now; and this is not racist - it's "culturalist" - for example, I dislike all kinds of people within ghetto culture regardless of their skin color.
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 11:50 PM	-Need I remind anyone what a ghetto actually is, while we are slinging the term around?
pokie 07-02-07, 11:58 PM	i think almost nobody in the usa uses the original meaning of ghetto anymore
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 12:17 AM	-Well, I do, so there you go. ;)
Stigger 07-03-07, 01:45 AM	That did come off as fairly racist actually... and I tend to use the term with the original meaning myself... so there's two of us at least ;)
pokie 07-03-07, 01:59 AM	Fine let's rename it "ghetto culture as portrayed in the majority modern rap videos." Uhm, racist as in disliking a culture composed of both blacks and whites? That doesn't make sense to me. I do have a couple of black friends but they are not spouting bs about bling bling, hoes, etc. which I find despicable... Anyway, this got way off topic...
souldnce9 07-03-07, 02:00 AM	I just left some large rant and pressed a button and somehow lost it all. Oh well I'm not retyping it! Just know I am F:censored: POed at the "Black-Trash" comment! I use the term with the original meaning as well. Whatever the connotation of that comment was though I am really offended by it since I can be considered part of it. :hoppingma
pokie 07-03-07, 02:05 AM	Shrug, when that guy used "black trash," I think he meant the lazy, good-for-nothing people who live off of welfare and steal from others and also happen to be black. Same applies to "white trash." Often these two also belong to the "ghetto culture as portrayed in modern rap music." I doubt anybody around here is trying insult anybody... unless they are not nice people anyway.
souldnce9 07-03-07, 02:08 AM	Fine let's rename it "ghetto culture as portrayed in the majority modern rap videos." Uhm, racist as in disliking a culture composed of both blacks and whites? That doesn't make sense to me. I do have a couple of black friends but they are not spouting bs about bling bling, hoes, etc. which I find despicable... Anyway, this got way off topic... Like I said MTV is not a good example of Hip-Hop culture!!!! None of the Rap artists in my library can be found on MTV! Nor do they rap about hoes, bling bling, or blunts!!!! They are all modern artists and rap about politics, social dysfunction, racism, etc. Want examples I can give them to you!!!! I'm finding this extremely aggravating. You don't have to like rap, I don't care if you do or don't!!! But for goodness sakes stop generalizing and stereo typing! I'm not referring specifically to you pokie.
pokie 07-03-07, 02:17 AM	Well, sure, I would actually like to see/listen to some good modern rap. But you have to realize that because of the popularity of the crappy rap, the associations I insinuated will hold for a long time, unfortunately for you. Having not been aware of existence of decent modern rap, I am merely calling what I see the way I see it.
souldnce9 07-03-07, 02:24 AM	Perhaps, but then he should take care in what he is saying. By adding that "Black" in there he made it offensive. I'm sorry, but the whole discussion is turning wrong fast. I don't really feel like getting into a discussion on the ignorance of looking at ghetto life style from a middle class suburb perspective. This is "Secret feminists doing away with the patriarchy" not Anthropology! There are a lot of great people in the "ghetto" and bad people as well! Personally I'd rather hang out with a bunch of "Gangsta's" (and I do) then those that like to sit on their high horse and cast judgments on those less fortunate then themselves. My last comment on the subject. :pbbbtt:
msatran 07-03-07, 02:30 AM	Well, actually, the truth of the matter is that Hip Hop and Black have nothing to do with each other in a racial manner. Hip Hop is it's OWN culture. It has nothing to do with black, or Hispanic, or anything else. The roots of Hip Hop come from a style of social interplay called "Playing the Dozens" or "rhyming to respect and/or disrespect someone." If you want to understand more about this, you should read a book by Henry Louis Gates, Jr. called "The Signifying Monkey." This book is fantastic. I liked it a lot.
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 09:52 AM	Like I said MTV is not a good example of Hip-Hop culture!!!! None of the Rap artists in my library can be found on MTV! Nor do they rap about hoes, bling bling, or blunts!!!! They are all modern artists and rap about politics, social dysfunction, racism, etc. Want examples I can give them to you!!!! I'm finding this extremely aggravating. You don't have to like rap, I don't care if you do or don't!!! But for goodness sakes stop generalizing and stereo typing! I'm not referring specifically to you pokie. -"Hip-hop" culture, "rap" culture, "ghetto" culture, "gangsta" culture, whatever we are going to be calling it, is defined by MTV. Sure, there might be underground rappers who have stayed truer to the actual roots of the music style, but that is exactly what they are- underground, meaning off the radar screens. Thus, the 85% of other rappers, who fit the mold for the qualities and what not that has been mentioned above, are the ones who define the "movement".
XHereticX 07-03-07, 07:44 PM	Well, Hip-Hop culture certainly has deviated from its origins, and I never really liked that style of music in the first place. But please people, don't be racist.
Stigger 07-04-07, 03:55 PM	It's music? News to me... :blink: Better than House & Acid at least I guess. ;) :D
The Simbul 07-04-07, 05:50 PM	Letsee... 18+5(wishes)+8(levels/4)+2(lich)+2(aging)+6(item)=41 So if anything he seems to have started out with 11...1) If you are going to reply to a post, then at least have the decency to read the entire post you are replying to before your commence typing. 2) If you are going to quote someone, then have the intellectual honesty to refrain from selectively quoting their arguments, specifically by omitting entire paragraphs--specifically those paragraphs which explicitly deal with the assertions you raise. By that I am referring to; http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12912501&postcount=138Larloch has a listed INT score of 34. As a human, the highest base INT score he could have began with would have been 18. He has 20 class levels (20HD) and 12 Epic Level Benefits (See the pre-ELH Epic Advancement rules in the FRCS). All of his Epic Level Benefits are in the increased spell level option, which means the maximum number of level-based ability score bonuses he could have accrued under the ruleset his stats were written with is 5. Assuming they all go into INT, that gives us a base score of 23. Being a Lich, he recieves another +2 INT, which gives us a base score of 25. His (ridiculous) ioun stones give him a +6 enhancement bonus to INT, which gives us a score of 31. That leaves us with three points that are unaccounted for. In terms of potential inherent bonuses, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book established an example precedent that all wish-enhanced ability score adjustments are to be noted in the special qualities section of the stat block. Alternatively, when tomes are used other D&D sources have set the precedent that they are accounted for by listing the tome in the equipment of the creature/NPC in question, usually with a parenthetical caveat that it is "already used". In the case of Larloch we have no such account of his using either option. Therefore if he has employed inherent bonuses then they are unaccounted for As for potential aging penalties/benefits prior to becoming a Lich, they are impossible with his listed statistics and abilities. If he achieved an age of venerable prior to becoming a Lich then he would have accrued a -6 penalty to his STR and DEX scores. In the case of Dexterity, his listed score is 24, which if reverse calculated gives us a base DEX score of 18 without magic item enhancements. Meanwhile his STR score is listed at 18, and he possesses no bonuses--magical or otherwise--to enhance it. Therefore, Larloch clearly was a Lich before the onset of old age took effect What is irritating here is that numerous other NPCs--specifically Elminster, Khelben, and the Seven Sisters--have all been denied their full due in ability score adjustment points that they would have recieved from their total character level, as per the 2E->3E character conversion manual, whereas Larloch apparently receives free ability boosts out of thin air. Elminster is missing three ability score adjustment points and is deprived of any listed default magic item to boost his INT score, whereas Larloch gets three free ability score adjustment points for no apparent reason other than being Netherese and is given a non-standard slotless magic item to boost his INT score to boot.The problem is I could easily churn out a dozen examples of NPCs who should have a command of wealth equal to or even greater than that of Larloch, and yet who are still confined to the standard NPC wealth limits and whose equipment selection (at least in terms of boosting the stats that matter) are FAR below what is normal for any other NPC of their class and role. 3) Larloch has no aging bonuses or penalties to his ability scores, for reasons covered in the quotation above 4) Every Forgotten Realms NPC who has inherent bonuses applied to their ability scores, whether through the use of wish spells or magical tomes, has had those bonuses explicitly spelled out in the special qualities sections of their statistics block. Therefore, Larloch has no inherent bonuses which are accounted for. 5) Larloch, as presented in Lords of Darkness and composed under the rules in place when published, is NOT entitled to 8 ability score adjustment points from levels in that stat block, he was entitled to 5. His stat block was written long before the release of the Epic Level Handbook and is created under the preliminary epic rules presented in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Under that ruleset, you do not gain ability score adjustment points after level 20 unless you specifically select the "+1 ability" Epic Level benefit. Larloch did not, and instead choose Increased Spell Level x12 for each of his 12 epic level benefits, which explains why he has spell slots going up to 17th.
XHereticX 07-04-07, 05:52 PM	Christ...how does she do it...:eek:
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 10:46 PM	Christ...how does she do it...:eek: She's the Simbul, duh:cool: She's cool that way. However, I will make the one remark I don't want to make....cuz even the great Karsus respects the power of the Simbul....she's assuming the designers actually follow their own rules.....It will hurt, I'm sure:embarrass 12 epic level benefits, which explains why he has spell slots going up to 17th. 20th actually, but my memory recalls something terribly wrong with his spell slots. Something about only 1 9th level spell :O
The Simbul 07-05-07, 12:24 AM	In terms of Larloch's wizard spells per day there is an issue. I probably would have double checked before replying, but I did not feel like digging out a softcover book at the time. I also should not have goofed with regard to noting that somehow 9th spell level + increased spell level epic benefit x12 somehow equals 17th level spells (he should have spell slots up to 21st), however I was rushing the reply and it was a relatively peripheral and trivial issue in terms of my main point That said, with his character level (Wiz20/Epic12), feats (spellcasting prodigy) special abilities (both his epic level benefits and the wish-ritual spell-slot costs of having gained his spell-like abilities ), his magic items (+6 INT and ring of wizardry III ioun stones), and modified INT score (34 [36 for bonus spells with spellcasting prodigy]) his wizard spells per day should look like this; (0th-21st) 4/7/6/9/6/6/5/5/5/5/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1 The reason why he appears to have just one 9th level spell slot in Lords of Darkness is probably because the designers goofed earlier in his spell slot listing and accidentally omitted one of the lower spell levels. The most likely omission would be his 3rd level spell slots, thanks to his ring of wizardry III ioun stone, and the problems it might raise in interpreting it with his spell slots sacrificed for gaining spell-like abilities. Basically his 3rd level spells should be 3 standard spell slots (4 from wizard class, -1 due to wish rituals), +3 due to INT, and then doubling the original three for a total of 9. Those side issues and errors however do not bear overmuch on the larger point regarding his ability scores, namely that we have ability score increases that are not accounted for, and go above and beyond what his stats entitle him to, whereas other NPCs receive less than their minimum due in ability score boosts.she's assuming the designers actually follow their own rules.....It is not so much assuming that they follow their own rules, as it is expecting them to follow their own rules..and moreover expecting them to do so across the board. Clearly they do not follow their own guidelines. If such was the case then 4 of Alustriel's 6 ability score boosts for being 24th level would not have mysteriously gone missing in conversion, nor would she be dumber than her younger and vastly inexperienced successor (Taern) or her most recent consort (Larlake), despite the fact that she is higher level than both, began with better ([edit] overall) ability scores than both, is born of much better stock than both, and has far more wealth and magical capability at her disposal than both.
Karsus the Mad 07-05-07, 12:43 AM	It is not so much assuming that they follow their own rules, as it is expecting them to follow their own rules..and moreover expecting them to do so across the board. Clearly they do not follow their own guidelines. True, true. I gave up hope for that tho' when I bought the FRCS, as such do all the work myself when required (which has been never actually!:P).
Stigger 07-05-07, 09:29 AM	Rules are made to be broken maybe? Or it could be that they don't actually expect anyone to ever use the NPCs as anything other than 'flavor' and so didn't bother doing a proper workup of them beyond a sketch... I prefer to think of it that way rather than the considerably more discouraging alternative. :D
XHereticX 07-05-07, 08:15 PM	She's the Simbul, duh:cool: She's cool that way. However, I will make the one remark I don't want to make....cuz even the great Karsus respects the power of the Simbul....she's assuming the designers actually follow their own rules.....It will hurt, I'm sure:embarrass Yeah, I kind of figured that out.:P Designers don't really follow their own rules, authors do though. They mess up stats all the time in sourcebooks, just look at the miscalculations on Dagon's stats in HoTA. Nobody is perfect, things like this happen. Whatever, when it comes to technical stuff im quite rusty.
Lord Karsus 07-05-07, 08:43 PM	Designers don't really follow their own rules, authors do though. -Eh, that's because the first group deals with a much more technical science, while the latter group deals with a much more figurative science.
pokie 07-05-07, 09:03 PM	Oh fiddlesticks, neither is a science...
Lord Karsus 07-05-07, 09:10 PM	Oh fiddlesticks, neither is a science... -The former is a science, while the latter is an art.
XHereticX 07-05-07, 11:24 PM	-The former is a science, while the latter is an art. More like the former is Mathematics (which in some respects can be consitered a science, while the latter is the art of fine literature.
Lord Karsus 07-05-07, 11:31 PM	-Yes, yes. Mathematicians are scientists, and writers are artists. Is this really that hard?
souldnce9 07-06-07, 02:37 AM	So would you consider an accountant a scientist? :D I still haven't figured out who these secret feminists are. Oh to heck with it! Lets start a group, the Simbul can lead! If she wants to that is.
captaincarot 07-06-07, 02:49 AM	So would you consider an accountant a scientist? :D . no i'd consider them a legitimate target and deserving of everything they got. durned bean counters take half the fun out of life.
souldnce9 07-06-07, 03:08 AM	:rofl: *Gasp* Don't hurt me, Please! I'm a writer too. I know how to have fun!!! :pint: <--- I'm the one on the right! ;)
captaincarot 07-06-07, 03:15 AM	oh surely you're not an accountant, i thought you were such a nice lady. i do have good reason to say what i said in the previous post, my ex wife is now an accountant. after living parrasitically off me while i put her through her education.
souldnce9 07-06-07, 03:23 AM	I think you mentioned that before. I'm sorry! :( I didn't go to school for accounting though. I'm going to school for literature. I am just really good at numbers so my store has me doing it. :D I just want to know if that qualifies me as a scientist! :D That way I can be both an artist and a scientist. heehee.
pokie 07-06-07, 03:53 AM	Accounting is a profession, not a science... A well paying profession... The math in (DnD) game design is so primitive that calling it a science would make any mathematician laugh :). It consists of rudimentary probability theory (so simple that it is intuitive) and arithmetics. A giraffe with reasonable hs education could do it :P .
souldnce9 07-06-07, 03:58 AM	awww why ya gotta sh** on my dreams! :P
captaincarot 07-06-07, 03:59 AM	I think you mentioned that before. I'm sorry! :( don't you go apologising for her, there's 2 faults here hers for being a conniving scheeming cow. and mine for being stupid and gullible enough to get taken in and then taken for a ride.
pokie 07-06-07, 04:10 AM	awww why ya gotta sh** on my dreams! :P It's not my fault lit. majors don't earn **** :). Although if you sell blockbuster novels...
souldnce9 07-06-07, 04:18 AM	I wasn't apologizing for her. I was just saying sorry you had to go through that. :D Yeah I constantly am rethinking my decision. I might actually start working for a Geology degree instead, but I doubt it. I love literature. I might go for both. I love rocks. :D
Karsus the Mad 07-06-07, 10:28 AM	I wasn't apologizing for her. I was just saying sorry you had to go through that. :D Yeah I constantly am rethinking my decision. I might actually start working for a Geology degree instead, but I doubt it. I love literature. I might go for both. I love rocks. :D You could always combine those two passions and write my biography, entitled "Memoires of the Red Rock: A Gentler Side to Karsus." :D
Lord Karsus 07-06-07, 06:27 PM	You could always combine those two passions and write my biography, entitled "Memoires of the Red Rock: A Gentler Side to Karsus." :D -I'll do it, and it'll be an autobiography.
Karsus the Mad 07-06-07, 06:54 PM	-I'll do it, and it'll be an autobiography. So long as you put truth, and not the common misconcieved notions that peasants maintain, I'll be happy with our autobiography:P
Lord Karsus 07-06-07, 06:58 PM	So long as you put truth, and not the common misconcieved notions that peasants maintain, I'll be happy with our autobiography:P -Would I ever dilute myself down? Please...I love hyping myself, don't worry.
XHereticX 07-06-07, 07:31 PM	So would you consider an accountant a scientist? :D I still haven't figured out who these secret feminists are. Oh to heck with it! Lets start a group, the Simbul can lead! If she wants to that is. Well, now that I know, you might as well throw that plan in the wastebasket.:D There are no secret feminists behind this whole thing, just greedy businesspeople trying to rake in some more dough.
pokie 07-06-07, 11:51 PM	That's almost always the case, imo.
souldnce9 07-07-07, 11:39 PM	There are no secret feminists behind this whole thing, just greedy businesspeople trying to rake in some more dough. That about sums me up! :D Just omit the business part. :shifty: