Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zerodeviere 06-10-07, 04:50 AM	Does anyone know how much Slaves cost and any variables like race, class and professions? I can not find any Information on this. thank you.
cmas3117 06-10-07, 07:28 AM	Does anyone know how much Slaves cost and any variables like race, class and professions? I can not find any Information on this. thank you. Slavery is only legal in a very limited number of places so I would deal with this topic VERY gingerly in terms of roleplaying. As for pricing and such I would make it entirely a roleplaying / judgement call though much like dealing with an assassin it would depend on the difficulty of the slave to acquire and the value there of. cmas
Suin Bahhar 06-10-07, 08:32 AM	Listen to Abdo the Tidy, Redwizard merchant on the great market in Eltabbar. One petty human male, good physical condition and of cormyrian stock; because you are my friend a special price for you: twenty gold Look at this beatiful young elf lass, a little roughed up but still capable of minor chores, special price: fifty gold pieces Oh wait, you're looking for something more controllable. For something smaller? Here we see a goblin of the Trollmoors, good workers and need less food; price 2 gold Ah look at this fine example of a gnome, capable of minor cantrips, great for some comic relief and can take a beating or two as well; price 25 gold Oh this one you should keep an eye on at all times, this Luiren Hin is as slippery as an eel, tried to make a run for it trice this week. Anyway he's yours for 10 gold. Hmm you're still not interested you say? I got some special races at the back wanna look? Costs you 5 silvers.
zerodeviere 06-10-07, 09:04 PM	LOL.... I am Interested in Slaves for one reason .. to set them free... I know they have quite a few in FR skull Port and Thay and such.. if I could get them for say 100 gp or less i could buy quite a few with what I have saved But cant find any actual pricing anywhere... if the above prices are close enough to accurate then that is good enough for me =-) ty
morvegil 06-10-07, 09:10 PM	In the Stronghold Builders book ive seen a real good strong slave go for 50gp...So use that as a base for a good slave. If all else fails go to Bezantur, or buy some form an Thayan Enclave in a major city, those slaves cost more because they are indentured slaves...which means they sold themselves in to slavery.
Shiftkitty 06-10-07, 10:10 PM	Holy Krunk! My slavers are going to your guys' places to buy!!! In this part of our campaign world, it's "own or be owned". Buying a slave to set him free only exposes him recapture by 'huntsmen'. Only those who are strong enough to fight for their freedom and smart enough to keep it deserve it. It's the law where this clan lives, and so far they have been both strong enough and smart enough. Slaves retail here for at least 200gp for an untrained male child, 350 for an untrained female child. Training of any sort varies the price another 25-50gp, depending on what they do and how good they do it. Adults prices vary according to gender, talent, and race. To judge the base price, I take the Ability scores most closely related to the talent and average them, then multiply by 100. Using the Monster Manual, I look at the being's description and decide how easily they can be 'domesticated' and assign a difficulty from 1-10, reversed (easy to domesticate, higher number). Multiply that number by 10 and add to the price. Add another 50% for the females, because you can always get more free slaves from them by breeding them. It's not a perfect system, and I'm open to hear any suggestions, but slaves go for quadruple digit prices here, and ar therefore not something the common person would have. But a city will have "city-slaves" that free citizens can rent for labor. If slavery is allowable by law, would a LG PC be acting within our outside of alignment by trying to free the slaves?
Karsus the Mad 06-10-07, 11:03 PM	If slavery is allowable by law, would a LG PC be acting within our outside of alignment by trying to free the slaves? Prolly depends on the society in which the paladin hails from. For example, the pharaoh of Mulhorand is a paladin, but also the largest slave owner in Faerun. It's perfectly legal and socially acceptable.
MarkusTay63 06-10-07, 11:14 PM	I don't know, buuuuuut...... Wouldn't it be much COOLER to free them the old fashioned way? :confused: I mean... this IS an adventure-based game last I checked, and freeing them sounds kinda... I don't know... ADVENTUROUS?!!! I'm sorry, but I've had people free slaves in my games, and have done so myself, but I have never heard of someone trying to do it monetarily. Think about it... Where do you free them... so they won't be immediately re-caught? If your in Skullport you're going to have to bring them topside. I don't think Waterdeep will appreciate you loosing several hundred vagrants into the streets! Will you feed them, clothe them, give them a place to stay? Opening a cage and saying RUN! is the simplest way to do it when you think about. Once you 'buy' them, they become your responsibility. Just my :twocents:
Shiftkitty 06-11-07, 01:23 AM	MarkusTay63 Actually, there is a real-world precedent. Alexander Hamilton and some others back around shortly after the American Revolution formed an abolitionist society in New York. They were fairly wealthy and would pool their money and resources to buy slaves. After purchase, they'd grant them their freedom, complete with paperwork to show it was legal. Of course, that didn't stop unscrupulous people from capturing a freed ex-slave and claiming he hadn't been freed, but the organizers of that society were pretty powerful, fiancially, and not many wanted to mess with them. Freeing them the old-fashioned way, with Righteous Vengeance and a good broadsword, does make for better role-play, however.
Shiftkitty 06-11-07, 01:27 AM	Prolly depends on the society in which the paladin hails from. For example, the pharaoh of Mulhorand is a paladin, but also the largest slave owner in Faerun. It's perfectly legal and socially acceptable. Okay, but suppose the paladin is from a society where slavery is not allowed. His faith has the tenets of not tolerating slavery and of honoring the law. If this paladin is someplace where slavery is legal, how would he decide which tenet to honor?
Another Gnome 06-11-07, 05:05 AM	Okay, but suppose the paladin is from a society where slavery is not allowed. His faith has the tenets of not tolerating slavery and of honoring the law. If this paladin is someplace where slavery is legal, how would he decide which tenet to honor? A) Go about freeing slaves wherever you see them, which likely requires you to crack some heads. It'll make you an outlaw, gets the local paladins hunting you down, and a vast majority of slaves themselves probably won't be too appreciative of you liberating them against their will, but at least you get to claim you served a higher purpose before they hang you. B) Decide that the spirit of the law is about offering social security to the slaves, and as such it's not really slavery, so you don't really need to oppose it. Your deity might still frown upon you if you went back to the meat-market to check out that cute slave girl you saw there earlier, however, so caution is adviced. C) Spontaniously combust as a result of paradoxal forces tearing apart the time-space continuum where you stand.
captaincarot 06-11-07, 05:13 AM	step 1 find zhent slavers transporting slaves through wilderness. step 2 slaughter zhents in ambush. step3 take all zhent belongings. step 4 sell em, step 5 remodel wagon that slaves were being transported in, step 6 give it and some tradegoods bought with zhentish slavers belongings plus 10gp to each slave, step7 wish them well. go on your way feeling good about yourself.
Philalexandros 06-11-07, 07:27 AM	Hmmm, Shiftkitty... I know the DMG is not necessarily indicative of how the Realms work, but their "prices for hireling services" table shows that a simply laborer gets paid 1 silver piece for every day of labor. Going by your numbers, a laborer with average attributes of 10 would fetch 1000gp in the society you cited. Looking at modern gold prices, that's more than the equivalent of $2,000,000 (per PHB, 50 gold pieces = 1lb) for an unskilled, average-in-all-ways individual. If there are 10 sp in 1 gp, that means that it would take roughly 10,000 days (or 27 years) before the slave owner starts seeing profit in his decision to buy a slave rather than hire labor. By that time, of course, the slave (assuming that, by adult you meant 18) would be in his or her mid-forties and in the twilight of productivity. That doesn't really seem like a good investment, especially when you consider that, as an owner, one is responsible for any and all food, housing, clothing, training, etc., the slave receives. We know that unskilled laborers working in ancient Athens' silver mines cost 180 drachmas to purchase, and that, circa 1990, the value of a 5th century BCE drachma was pegged at around $25 US. That means that an unskilled, physically able foreigner intended for harsh, potentially hazardous/deadly labor was worth $4500 US at that time. Modern scientists estimate that the life expectancy of slaves working there was, on average, 3-4 years (with others--Montag, IIRC--citing as much as 8 years). Conversely, a skilled worker during the hey-day of that state supposedly earned, on the average, 1 drachma per day. Xenophon claimed that 1/2 drachma per day was the minimum needed to guarantee a comfortable life. Thus, with roughly 180 drachmas/year for a bare minimums lifestyle, we arrive at the same $4500 value. In this case, the slave is a great value for the city-state of Athens. His/her cost is only 25-33% (depending on overall life expectancy) of the long-term price tag of a free laborer--who would probably object to the grueling/deadly work environment of those infamous mines. I'm just saying... I'd re-think your numbers. ;)
GothicDan 06-11-07, 07:52 AM	Also note that I don't think slavery in itself is necessarily automatically considered Evil under D&D's alignment system. I could see a good case for it being a LN action in the case of the Pharaoh of Mulhorand. This has always been a grey area, with people automatically assuming that "Freedom" automatically equates to good (tell that to a Tanar'ri) and that being somehow lawfully bound to someone else is automatically evil (the Archons and the Harmonium would probably have something to say about that, even the LG members of the Harmonium). I think the manner in which slaves are procured, maintained, the extent of abuse one can afflict on a slave under the local government, the ability for a slave to throw off his chains (indentured servitude or the Roman Libertines), and any actual genuine emotion shown for slaves all would de determine where a specific case of slavery would fall on the G vs. E scale.
Faraer 06-11-07, 08:20 AM	For inspiration, look at Mestrel Hawkmantle's exploits against slavers in FOR4 The Code of the Harpers (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/2ndEdition/v5748btpy7mjq).
Shiftkitty 06-11-07, 10:52 AM	Philalexandros My pricing system was based on the incomes and stuff for realms in the Rules Cyclopedia. I was setting it up so that only the very wealthy could actually afford slaves. I hadn't thought about the other end of the deal. Hmmm, my players like a fairly detailed economy. (Like I'm an economist or something! I'm lucky if I have two dimes to rub together!) As they are anti-slaver, it might make it interesting for them to deal with their abolitionist tendencies if the price of slaves suddenly dropped. The average citizen might find it quite a status symbol to own a slave if it doesn't drop too far, which means they're going to have a harder time convincing people that it's a bad thing. If they start buying cheap slaves to set them free, they've just added to the demand for slaves, and there could be an increase in slave sellers. Okay, how would I get a good slave glut going? A recent war? A flood of refugees from a neighboring devastated state willing to do what it takes to survive? A newly discovered and highly exploitable primitive land? Ooh, thinkity think think think...
zerodeviere 06-11-07, 01:40 PM	I only plan on buying them from places like Skull Port where trying to free them would most likely get you killed. If my character does this quite a few times with a huge amount of money then most likely I will be able to learn how their supply trains work. I have a real problem with slavery and if I saw a caravan of slaves outside Thay in an area that is not to controled by large numbers and such I would destroy the slavers without thought. I would im sure Increase their demand for a short time but that also increases their slaver activity making it more visable for me to wipe out. going into Skull Port or a big town in Thay and attacking slavers is suicide, so im gonna do my part the best I can. Also my brother is about to get the Epic leadership feat and has a 30 something Cha with his cloak on so he will be able to use alot of the freed slaves as his guards and such if they don't have a place to go to and Dwarves and Elves that are freed will always have a community to go back to even if theirs was completely wiped out. We take care of our own. And our characters will make a place for any others who need it.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 03:22 PM	It depends on the conditions as to how 'evil' slavery is. A well-kept house-slave in Mulhorand probably lives much better then most rural peasants. In Thay (or in an Athens mine, as Phil mentioned), normal slavery should be considered evil. In Skullport, where some slaves are being bought as a food source (or worse!), I would say that slavery is incredibly evil. Also, your Alexander Hamilton example is flawed, in that slavery was illegal in the North and therefore slaves bought and brought there had at least a decent chance to STAY free. Once you purchase slaves in Thay, or Skullport, or Calimshan OR Mulhorand, etc... you must now travel completely outside of the country/region you bought them and make sure they will survive. Surviving on the streets of NY in the 1700 or 1800's would be slightly easier then surviving in Faerûn's wilderness areas, I would imagine. And besides, HUMAN slavery is evil, but what of slaves KEPT BY HUMANS of other races? There was a Goblin that was a slave to some rural hick in one of the Drizzt novels, and was badly mistreated. The point of the story was that Drizzt had to figure out who the real monsters were. It's not always so black and white, sometimes.
Shiftkitty 06-11-07, 03:31 PM	Also, your Alexander Hamilton example is flawed, in that slavery was illegal in the North and therefore slaves bought and brought there had at least a decent chance to STAY free. There were slave hunters that would kidnap choice specimens even from abolition states and smuggle them to where they could get a good price. They had to be very good and carry plenty of knock-out or dope-up stuff with them. Because of logistics, it didn't happen very often too far north, but it did happen.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 03:39 PM	Well, that must have just plain sucked. :mad: All that trouble getting your freedom, and some jerk drags you back. :nonono:
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 04:17 PM	As they are anti-slaver, it might make it interesting for them to deal with their abolitionist tendencies if the price of slaves suddenly dropped. The average citizen might find it quite a status symbol to own a slave if it doesn't drop too far, which means they're going to have a harder time convincing people that it's a bad thing. If they start buying cheap slaves to set them free, they've just added to the demand for slaves, and there could be an increase in slave sellers. Okay, how would I get a good slave glut going? A recent war? A flood of refugees from a neighboring devastated state willing to do what it takes to survive? A newly discovered and highly exploitable primitive land? Ooh, thinkity think think think... Another thought to go on might be that the PCs actions drive the price of slaves up too high for most of the slave buying market to handle. Since slaves generally do menial work (such as harvesting crops) then a shortage of slaves might just mean a shortage of food (especially if the free people of the area look at the menial work as "slave work" and beneath a free person) and a gradual decline of the infrastructure of the state. This could lead to food riots and the general populous being against the PCs for causing such a situation. Basically take the anti-slaving philosophy from the Guardians of the Flame series and show the dark side of it. (The philosophy was to make slaving so costly, by attacking slavers, that the price of slaves would be driven up so much that slaves are no longer economically viable. The only real problem with this, which the series doesn't get into, is the shift from slave labor to paid labor, which wouldn't happen overnight. :))
Tyberian 06-12-07, 04:22 PM	Does anyone know how much Slaves cost and any variables like race, class and professions? I can not find any Information on this. thank you. Back to the original point. In mysteries of the Moonsea there are many, many dealings with slavers and slaves being taken and sold. Prices might be mentioned there
Shiftkitty 06-12-07, 05:34 PM	ShadezofDis Thank you, thank you very much...MWUHAHAHAHA!:lightbulb :plotting:
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 06:00 PM	ShadezofDis Thank you, thank you very much...MWUHAHAHAHA!:lightbulb :plotting: You're welcome. :) I'm a big fan of the unexpected concequences of a heroic act. "Oh, that dragon you killed a couple years back? Yeah, it's diet consisted mainly of orcs in that mountain range. Now that the biggest control of their population is gone they've begun raiding in earnest and there's rumors of a horde developing. . . " :D
rjfras 06-12-07, 07:03 PM	There is one reference that I know of about costs of slaves in FR in the FRCS book on page 87. "A strong, healthy slave costs between 50 and 100 gold pieces in lands where slavery is common." I would think in places where it is not common that the price would be more.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 07:30 PM	That sounds somewhat more realistic. Phil proposed that a slave's cost = one years labor of an equivalent free man, which would only amount to about 36 Gold in D&D. Shiftkitty's figures, as proven by Phil, are way too high and not economically sound. Since the average houshold slave would probably last a good twenty years, then 100 Gold pieces sounds about right. I have often seen a dollar=1 GP in many conversions, and that works too. If you look at this price list (http://www.nyscss.org/resources/publications/NYandSlavery/Chapter%20C/Documents/1775D.PRI.pdf) from 1775 it will give you some idea (I refuse to copy and paste the list here because many will find it offensive, including myself). Bear in mind that the English £ is double the dollar, so a 40 year old wench goes for a hundred dollars or 100 GP.
souldnce9 06-13-07, 01:00 AM	In our campaign our bard bought a little girl slave in Skullport with the intentions of freeing her, but now she follows us everywhere we go. :D
Shiftkitty 06-13-07, 01:27 AM	I was actually looking for a price list like that for a historical forum I'm a member of. Thanks! (Eh, I can see why you didn't paste it...) souldnce You could have always found yourself in the same boat Andrew Jackson found himself in. When he was a slave dealer/owner, he'd go to buy a slave or two, but would end up going into hock because he couldn't stand to break up families. So looking for one slave, he'd come back with the wife and kids in tow as well. And God forbid an orphan would go up on the block... Hmm, what sort of alignment would that be in a typical D&D setting? Slavery=bad, but he did try to keep families together...NE?
souldnce9 06-13-07, 04:31 AM	I was just pointing out one of the consequences for being such a goody-goody! I mean sure slavery is wrong and I certainly don't condone it, but you aren't going to end it by freeing a few of them. So why bother unless you're gonna get something out of it? I could see doing it if you were getting paid, or if you had a chance to stop the problem as a whole. Of course I'm from Waterdeep and slavery is illegal, so if I caught slavers in the city I would probably just turn them in (or bribe them :P ). but if it were legal, I wouldn't bother doing anything illegal (such as setting them free) unless I were to make a profit on it. Yeesh, some of you sound like the nagging Dwarf I travel with! "No! Red we will pay for our rooms." "Ye better not of stole that, Red!" "I don't care if he tried to kill us, he is Unconscious so we can't kill him." Nag Nag Nag. Bah! lighten up guys and have some fun! Life is too short, well unless you're an elf, but I would think that would just give ya plenty of more time to have fun and amass richess. :D
captaincarot 06-13-07, 04:48 AM	Back to the original point. In mysteries of the Moonsea there are many, many dealings with slavers and slaves being taken and sold. Prices might be mentioned there i happened to have been reading this book for the last couple of evenings, nothing seems to come to mind on mentioning the costs anywhere in it. though there is an entire campaign thread dealing with slaves in there.
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 09:54 AM	souldnce You could have always found yourself in the same boat Andrew Jackson found himself in. When he was a slave dealer/owner, he'd go to buy a slave or two, but would end up going into hock because he couldn't stand to break up families. So looking for one slave, he'd come back with the wife and kids in tow as well. And God forbid an orphan would go up on the block... Hmm, what sort of alignment would that be in a typical D&D setting? Slavery=bad, but he did try to keep families together...NE? LN with good tendencies. Only evil if he mistreated his slaves. If slavery were illegal then it would be a different situation but conforming to social norms while being as "good" as you can isn't evil. :) This is one of the big problems with alignment. Good and evil are SO mutable and situational it isn't even funny.
lantan_gnome 06-13-07, 10:36 AM	..dont u support the slavery buying them an-mass ? generic red wiz1:hmmm mr generic red wiz 2 it seems we sold out again. generic red wiz2:great lets round up some more there are stil plenty o paladins to sell them to ! and the forgotten campain setting says 50 to 100g for a strong healty one, its on page 87
Shiftkitty 06-13-07, 11:44 AM	I was just pointing out one of the consequences for being such a goody-goody! I mean sure slavery is wrong and I certainly don't condone it, but you aren't going to end it by freeing a few of them. I wasn't meaning to rag about. I was just pondering the pickle of being of a Good alignment and only being able to afford one member of a family. Jackson had businesses he put on the line in order to make purchases of whole families (and he lost a couple of businesses by it). But if you had a family of four or five, which one would you choose if you could only afford one? ShadezofDis LN with good tendencies. Only evil if he mistreated his slaves. Okay, I'll buy that. He only ever ordered two whippings in his years as a slaveholder, neither of which seems to have been carried out. In the first case, the escaped slave was never recaptured and in the second he realized he'd issued the order because he was angry at the girl (his wife's personal servant, Hannah) for vanishing for three days when she'd only been given one day off. Seems she'd met this guy in town... He also fired a foreman for whipping a slave (cracking a whip overhead was okay, but actually applying lashes was verboten), and successfully defended three escaped slaves in court who ran away because they had been whipped too often. Weird, that one, because it implies that the slaves were willing to accept a certain amount of whipping as not necessarily cruel. Okay, enough of the history lesson. Sorry to wander off topic. I get that way. Bad kitty, bad kitty! Given the way the drow consider slaves like potato chips and mistreat and dispose of them at will, does that reflect a low price on slaves in the Underdark, or the wealth of the drow? (Or are they just short-sighted, impulsive little prigs?)
captaincarot 06-13-07, 12:01 PM	Given the way the drow consider slaves like potato chips and mistreat and dispose of them at will, does that reflect a low price on slaves in the Underdark, or the wealth of the drow? (Or are they just short-sighted, impulsive little prigs?) with drow it's not just slaves, they don't value life, if some one was slighted by their parent's favourite slave then killed the slave, they would as likely as not be killed by their parent out of annoyance for killing the slave. not nice things drow. and your last comment certainly applies.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 12:59 PM	Didn't Thomas Jefferson want to marry his slave, but couldn't? He was in love with her and had several children with her as I recall. I would say Mr. Jackson would be Lawful Good with those actions. In fact, he could have been a Paladin. ;) Especially if he were constantly becoming indebted through his actions, because that would indicate a sacrifice on his part. In the case of the Drow, I would say it was a combination of things. Drow buy human slaves to show prestige over other Drow, because humans are extremely rare in the Underdark. The same could be said concerning any surface race. They buy humanoids to do the drudge work, like working in mines or fighting in their armies (usually both). They prefer 'pretty' slaves around them, so household slaves would be OTHER DROW or demi-humans. The only humanoid slaves kept in sight would be something large and powerful, like a minotaur, to act as gaurds. You have to remember also that most Drow treat other Drow of a lower social standing like slaves, and would have no trouble whipping or even killing a paid servant, so there is a very blurred line there where they are concerned. So the answer to your question would be yes, they are short-sighted impulsive prigs (it even says as much in 2e DotU, concerning how they will build something structurally unsound just because it looks better that way, and then rebuild it the same way WHEN it collapses). Lantan_Gnome has an excellent point - You are actually supporting the slave trade by buying them, and therefore making the whole process more lucrative. If anything you are encouraging others to 'go into the business' that way. Bizarrely enough, it might be more 'good' to unleash some sort of disease on a new group of slaves every time they are caught! If the slavers start losing money because their 'product' keeps dying off, they may just rethink their line of work. I know that sounds horrible, but in the long run making something economically unsound is the best way to stamp it out for good. One last thing, since the Drow argument brought it to mind. In FR humans would NOT be used in mining operations, for the very reasons Phil pointed out. Slaves are costly, and if you force him/her to do that sort of cruel work they will die in 2-3 years which would amount to a loss. I would surmise that countries with legal slavery would use humanoids - most likely Orcs - to do that sort of work. You could probably get at least ten years out of a healthy Orc, and the Darkvision is just an added plus. In fact, I'm not sure if that would constitute 'slavery' at all in that case. You could probably convince a tribe of Orcs to do the work if you protected them and kept them well fed. Most wizards use them for that very reason - cheap disposable labor/fodder.
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 02:32 PM	Lantan_Gnome has an excellent point - You are actually supporting the slave trade by buying them, and therefore making the whole process more lucrative. If anything you are encouraging others to 'go into the business' that way. Bizarrely enough, it might be more 'good' to unleash some sort of disease on a new group of slaves every time they are caught! If the slavers start losing money because their 'product' keeps dying off, they may just rethink their line of work. I know that sounds horrible, but in the long run making something economically unsound is the best way to stamp it out for good. I think that'd be a more evil way of combating slavery (perhaps it could even be viewed as a brutally neutral standpoint but that seems like a bit of a stretch) The better way would be to; Kill slavers and hit slave caravans (thus making the product far more expensive to gather) or Free slaves who are held from the slavers (the slavers won't really care if you free slaves from slave owners, that just gives the slavers more business, though you may be able to make slave owners think twice about owning slaves, but then you have a much larger "enemy" rather than a smaller "enemy") One last thing, since the Drow argument brought it to mind. In FR humans would NOT be used in mining operations, for the very reasons Phil pointed out. Slaves are costly, and if you force him/her to do that sort of cruel work they will die in 2-3 years which would amount to a loss. I would surmise that countries with legal slavery would use humanoids - most likely Orcs - to do that sort of work. You could probably get at least ten years out of a healthy Orc, and the Darkvision is just an added plus. In fact, I'm not sure if that would constitute 'slavery' at all in that case. You could probably convince a tribe of Orcs to do the work if you protected them and kept them well fed. Most wizards use them for that very reason - cheap disposable labor/fodder. Go with kobolds for mining. :)
Shiftkitty 06-13-07, 02:43 PM	Oh, not the TJ thing... There's no evidence he had sexual relations with that woman (Sally Hemmings, not Monica Lewinsky), although the DNA evidence is there that someone in his family did. It would be impossible to pinpoint who, though. TJ was a chronic record-keeper, and Hemmings only appears in a list of inventory with all of the other slaves, and without any children named 'Tom'. For a master to use a slave for sex wasn't considered scandalous, so he'd have no reason to hide it if he did. In fact, she was mulatto (not full black, as often depicted) and allegedly devastatingly pretty, so it might have even been expected. I used to have a complete analysis of the evidence based on DNA, original documents, journals, etc. Since this has gone really off topic, I can refer anyone to a more appropriate forum for historical debate, info, and issues: http://earlyamericanhistory.net/board/index.php If you get there, I'm HistoryGeek. You'll have to register, but that's how we keep spam out.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 02:55 PM	Another myth blasted apart from my HS days. I suppose next you'll tell me that Betsy Ross had nothing to do with the American Flag? ;) @ShadezoDis - Sorry, but I feel your way would just drive the prices up and make it MORE lucrative. Sometimes you just have to consider the 'greater good'. If you gave leprosy to every batch of slaves captured, then the slavers will think that all the slaves are somehow defective, or cursed. Add to that that many slavers themselves would become sick, and you would have a full-fledged mutiny on your hands. Any decent scoundrel will risk life for monetary gain, but after seeing one of his buddies rot away you can bet he would go nowhere near the slave trade. You can't just change the economis, you need to change the mindset. If slavery became simply too horrifying to the slavers themselves, it would all go away very shortly.
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 03:06 PM	@ShadezoDis - Sorry, but I feel your way would just drive the prices up and make it MORE lucrative. Price goes up less people buy slaves and more people hire labor. Hired labor is almost always more productive than slave labor. As the smaller businesses (or noble houses, or whatever) garner more profit from hired labor than the bigger businesses do from slave labor then you would start to see a shift from slave based labor to hired labor. Further, the more dangerous you make slaving the more slavers must spend on protection, cutting into their profit margins. Driving up the price of slaves makes slaves free. :) Sometimes you just have to consider the 'greater good'. If you gave leprosy to every batch of slaves captured, then the slavers will think that all the slaves are somehow defective, or cursed. Add to that that many slavers themselves would become sick, and you would have a full-fledged mutiny on your hands. Any decent scoundrel will risk life for monetary gain, but after seeing one of his buddies rot away you can bet he would go nowhere near the slave trade. You can't just change the economis, you need to change the mindset. If slavery became simply too horrifying to the slavers themselves, it would all go away very shortly. Yeah, but how are you going to get a bunch of Talonites to make that disease? ;) Anyhow, I don't see your method as being much better than mine (baring the fact that it'd probably be safer to do. . . though playing with leprosy isn't really too safe *g*) but mine has the benefit of not killing off the poor slaves. :)
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 03:37 PM	Your way would take longer, and drive prices up across the board. I'm no economics major, but at my age I know a little something about inflation. If the price of slaves go up, paid laborers would be able to demand more, and so on, and so on... It would work, handled correctly, and would definately be the nicer way to go about things. I look at it this way - Zerodeviere's method is the way Elminster would go. He would see a large group of slaves and feel pity for them, and he would just wave his hand and a big ol' bag of gold would appear and he'd buy all the slaves and release them. And that would be it. Your way is how most Harpers would handle it, and perhaps get themselves and some slaves killed in the process, plus (most importantly) let the people in charge know that someone is f__king with them. My way is most likely how Blackstaff would handle it. Several hundred slaves would die as a result, along with dozens of slavers, but in the end slavery would cease to be in that particular region. A long-run solution, albeit costly. He would also get some Taloners to do his dirty work in secret (keeping his hands clean), and then spread a rumor that such-and-such a God has placed a curse on all slaves taken from that area (Chult, Maztica, whatever). Mis-information is a potent tool, and one Khelben was VERY good at.. ;) As far as Taloners needing a reason to sicken and kill hundreds of helpless victims.... c'mon... please. :rofl:
ClobberinTime 06-13-07, 04:50 PM	In colonial America slaves sold for 10-20 times the price of a horse, so that is what??????
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 05:31 PM	Your way would take longer, and drive prices up across the board. I'm no economics major, but at my age I know a little something about inflation. If the price of slaves go up, paid laborers would be able to demand more, and so on, and so on... Eh, without unionization (though the guild structure could work, but I don't think there's a single "harvesters guild") paid laborers don't really have squat for barganing power. However, we'd really have to speak about specific regions to evaluate the potential "ending slavery" plans. :) Your way is how most Harpers would handle it, and perhaps get themselves and some slaves killed in the process, plus (most importantly) let the people in charge know that someone is f__king with them. See, I don't believe for a second that releasing diseases (which would have to be done magically) would remain undetected. I just don't buy it. :) He would also get some Taloners to do his dirty work in secret (keeping his hands clean) Which I think would be quite difficult. More difficult, IMO, than just hitting slavers. Mis-information is a potent tool, and one Khelben was VERY good at.. ;) Oh I know, I'm a BIG fan of misinformation myself. Point in fact, I'd likely frame other groups when attacking slaver caravans. As far as Taloners needing a reason to sicken and kill hundreds of helpless victims.... c'mon... please. :rofl: That's what the wink was all about, because Talonites are ALWAYS looking to do that. :) But the real question is, how are you going to rein them in? I mean sure, if you're Blackstaff (or an approximate level of power to Blackstaff) you could go this route but you need to be pretty uber to not have your plan backfire. :) Not that I think you're plan sucks, just that it'd be much harder than my plan and the chance of a massive plague spilling out has to be considered (since that would be the aim of the Talonites, which is the term used in F&P so I'm assuming it's the "correct" one, looked it up the first time I used it ;))
Boda 06-13-07, 05:31 PM	Price goes up less people buy slaves and more people hire labor. Hired labor is almost always more productive than slave labor. Anyhow, I don't see your method as being much better than mine (baring the fact that it'd probably be safer to do. . . though playing with leprosy isn't really too safe *g*) but mine has the benefit of not killing off the poor slaves. :) Why?
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 05:32 PM	In colonial America slaves sold for 10-20 times the price of a horse, so that is what?????? Shipping and supply and demand. That's what. :)
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 05:35 PM	Why? Because a free person works harder than a slave. This is generally due to the fact that a free person generally gets something for working harder, where as a slave does not. Further, you don't need to pay a free person's room and board. Look into it a bit, it's quite well documented, I'm sure you can find some of the information on wiki at the very least.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 06:08 PM	I never said my plan was 'good' (as per alignment good), I just said it would be effective. Without modern medical tech, it would be hard to trace a diseases point of origin. You do make a good point about reigning it, and the Taloners, in after they/it has completed its purpose. I just like the idea of scaring people out of slavery; I'm evil that way. Also, there would be some definate alignment problems with that one - is committing a horribly unspeakable act 'good', if it creates a longer-lasting over-all good? One for the philosophers, I suppose.... I believe the horse question pertained to the current prices of horses in D&D, so that could make a slave's price range anywhere from 750 GP to 8000 GP!* :eek: Those figures for a horse are incredibly inflated because they pertain to adventurers. No economy could hold up with horse prices that high - farmers couldn't afford draft horses. *(going by 10x the cheapest horse to 20x the most expensive)
souldnce9 06-14-07, 03:57 AM	Fools! The best way to free slaves and guarentee that they remain free is to start a revolution. Outside forces are useless. The only way that slaves will be free will be if they want to be. Revolution is the answer! Viva la Revolution!
Stigger 06-14-07, 07:12 AM	That's seemingly what the Jannisaries of Calimshan think too... personally, I'd be more in favor of buying a batch of slaves, using several enchanted coins I could magically track, and then taking out the money behind the slaving operations. Slavers need to be paid, and someone is doing that... take out the financial backers and forget about the small fry on the road, they'll be out of work soon enough without someone paying their wages, and move on to something else. Make the guys with the money too nervous to actually stick his fingers into the pie, and you accomplish the same ends. In the case of Skullport, I had some players a while back come up with a rather daring plan involving spider climb spells, invisibility potions & scrolls, and a few featherfall spells to get down from the ceiling, along with a telepathic bond spell... was pretty innovative really. Dropped down on the guard towers, took out the guards and secured the bridge, while the mage still hiding on the ceiling lobbed a few area nukes onto the guards coming to respond to the hue and cry the others started, who then relocated, rinsed, repeated, while the guys in the towers sniped and moved forward. Really didn't stand much of a chance against them... add in that they used the crossbows to pin down the Tower and more invisibility to infiltrate the dungeon areas to take out the guards and free the slaves, and there was very little I could actually do to stop them. Was a relatively high level group (mid-teens) sure, but the planning was very solid and effective. Had to fudge a few rolls just to keep the action going actually... All told the whole thing was over in a half hour of game time. Getting out of Skullport was a little dicey, but a few bribes and some good diplomacy checks with the right people got them out on a ship. Kinda miss that group really.
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 09:36 AM	I never said my plan was 'good' (as per alignment good), I just said it would be effective. Without modern medical tech, it would be hard to trace a diseases point of origin. You do make a good point about reigning it, and the Taloners, in after they/it has compleeted its purpose. I just like the idea of scaring people out of slavery; I'm evil that way. It would definitely be a question for the philosophers, as per a particular character I'd go by their patron deity. If their patron is a . . . less touchy feely type then it might slide. When I have questions on a particular action I go to the deity the character reveres most and check the dogma against the action, if the action violates the dogma then it is definitely evil, if not then it's not really. At least that's one way I try to get around the whole "alignment problem" ;) Anyhow, I'm speaking of tracing the disease magically, not mundanely. I think you could pull the disease gambit two or three times before it gets investigated thoroughly and then the disease might be traced. Of course if you're tricking Talonites into releasing the disease then you might still be free and clear but it's quite the difficult gambit and at the levels I believe you would have to be in order to pull off this gambit I really feel it would be easier to just take out the slavers and frame someone else, preferably a different slaver. :) Stigger, Not a bad way to go. :) As for player tactics, just this weekend my players schooled my encounters, just plain schooled them. They were going to be awfully brutal fights too but the party just thought before they acted and it was basically over before it started. I was actually quite impressed.
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 09:36 AM	Fools! The best way to free slaves and guarentee that they remain free is to start a revolution. Outside forces are useless. The only way that slaves will be free will be if they want to be. Revolution is the answer! Viva la Revolution! Alright my man, you go get that started in Thay and we'll be right behind you. I swear. :D
BrennonGoldeye 06-14-07, 10:37 AM	Oh my, funsies. I'm there souldnce9. I have a couple of cousins who would like to tag along. Let me ask Auntie Alustriel if her boys can come. It'll be a big ole tattoo removal party.:D
MarkusTay63 06-14-07, 10:54 AM	But Stigger, if the battle lasted ½ hour, the Skulls should have showed up and made toast out of your players. I had an idea that would work for a neutral good character, I suppose. I was thinking about what was discussed earlier, about being responsible for the slaves once you release them. A clever person could actually flip that and appear to be helping slaves while serving his own ends. In another thread someone was trying to re-start an abandoned city. In yet another someone wanted to create a town in the Stonelands. How about something like that, where some players are trying to create their own domain but need citizens? :D You do whatever you have to to free groups of slaves, and then teleport them to YOUR 'safe haven'. Soon you'll have a bustling little town going, with everyone real thankful to you. You'd be a king in no time. :dancin: Its good to be the King. :king:
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 11:08 AM	Its good to be the King. :king: Unless you're good, then it's a pain. ;) But that's not a bad idea, good way to gain a population that really likes you. :)
MarkusTay63 06-14-07, 11:20 AM	I keep thinking about developing it further... maybe do a whole 'Mel Gibson' thing. :D When you raid the Slave ships/caravans, you paint your faces ½ blue, and charge in like a bunch of crazy maniacs. That scares the cr@p out of the bad guys, and you get a reputation as a freedom fighter. Then you name your little town 'Freedom'. :D You could even start your own 'underground railroad', perhaps sneaking slaves out of a place like Thay through the Underdark. Sounds like it could even be the basis for an entire campaign.
captaincarot 06-14-07, 12:41 PM	ah no fair i want to come and introduce some thayan slavers to my big chopper, can i come too please.
Shiftkitty 06-14-07, 02:31 PM	You'd better focus on building your town defenses first, and hope the ex-slaves are in good fighting shape, 'cuz all those former slave owners are going to want their property back. They probably have the money to hire a good bunch of mercenaries. Sniff! Sniff! Sniff! I smell a campaign...
Stigger 06-14-07, 02:31 PM	The main fight was over in 5 minutes... a half hour was the time to starting the raid to getting the slaves out of Skullport. The actual large fighting was over in a matter of 5-6 minutes. Amusingly Markus, I had a player with a priestess of Lliira who was doing exactly that out of Calimshan, with a little village that she'd ship them to in Asbravn to start their new lives. Mostly got them from the Jannisaries and just helped smuggle them out and get them to the place via a hidden gate. Was a fun, if mostly political campaign. :)
souldnce9 06-14-07, 03:01 PM	You guys go on with out me! :P I have no desire to travel all the way across faerun. I just meant if the slaves wanna be free they gotta do it themselves. No one ever handed anything to me on a silver platter (at least not willingly :plotting: ).
Stigger 06-14-07, 03:02 PM	You're not going to the right parties then...
Boda 06-15-07, 03:46 PM	Because a free person works harder than a slave. This is generally due to the fact that a free person generally gets something for working harder, where as a slave does not. Further, you don't need to pay a free person's room and board. Look into it a bit, it's quite well documented, I'm sure you can find some of the information on wiki at the very least. Sure, but generally there's more slaves workers that free workers around( i mean comparativly).Let's say a slave produces less 30% then a free man, still in most agricultural estates there a ratio of maybe 3 slaves to a free worker(like estates of similar size between a slave-work nation and a free work nation). And you still have to pay a wage(that must support house and food) to the free worker. Besides, i think your assuming a slave based society like Thay, but in others like Mulhorandi there's might be incentives for harder working slaves(permission to marry, breeding, better food,etc). Note that what's documented is analisys of slave work societies on Earth. In FR, with magic, multiple races, much higher breeding rates, etc, the conclusions might not be the same. In fact, slave-work seems to be more common in Faerun that free mens work. In the end, the most efficient way to end slavery is change of mentallity in the rulling classes of a society(by persuasion or otherwise).
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 06:33 PM	I just meant if the slaves wanna be free <snip>Just as I was reading this, the Cyndi Lauper song Girls just want to have fun came on the radio (its an oldies weekend), and I kept singing in my head - ♪ "Slaves just wanna be free, yeah, slaves.. just wanna be.. FREE.... thats all they REEALLY WAAAANT" ♫ The rest of the song worked pretty good with that theme - "I want to be the one to walk in the sun..." Just thought I'd share... I'll go back under my rock now. :D
BrennonGoldeye 06-15-07, 08:37 PM	Markus, don't fear your Cyndi Lauper fascination, coming out from under the rock is the hardest part. :ayyyy!: Free workers out perform slave labor not by percentages, but by multiples. :)
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 09:33 PM	You have multiples? :uh-huh: You've definately got my ex beat, then. ;)
GothicDan 06-16-07, 12:38 AM	The idea of changing slavery via first changing social mentality is backwards and pointless. It's the people in charge of a country, or those who work within the rules of those in charge, who ultimately decide the motion of a country. Even the American Revolution played this role to an extent, since Britain was so far away as to hardly be considered a true governing body, and didn't really care any more partway through the war. The quickest way to affect a cultural change is to affect the financial methodologies of the country. While civil rights movements in the past always did have a very vocal 'common sector,' usually the actual laws of a land didn't change concerning slavery unless there was financial evidence shown that it was inefficient. Remember that you can make the world a better place without being a flower-wearing, sign-toting hippie. All organizations that truly want to affect the mindset of society need a variety of people aiding them, knowledgeable in many areas: finance, law, politics, psychology, science, etc. I plan on donating as much money as possible to wildlife preserves when I get older, for instance. Money (an extension of power) really does make the world go 'round, and it isn't evil. It's just often held by evil people.
oberwald 06-16-07, 12:53 AM	One thing about slaves in FR. For mining etc. wouldn´t it be easier to just use undead? You get some orcs after a raid, since they have no rights nobody cares. And when they die, you simply revive them and let them work until they too fall apart from the heavy labor. You need a wizard and a few guards of discussable alignment. Cheap and highly productive I´d say. All you have to do is keep those fanatical do gooders away ;) About alignment. I only use alignment as a guideline. Fx. an elf in a forest is of chaotic good alignment. From a nearby city Lawful good foresters go to the forest and start chopping down his beloved forest. He warns them at first but they continue, at some point in a heated moment. He fires an arrow and kills one of the foresters, because they attack his home. Next thing you know a couple of paladins has been dispatched to take care of the murderer. So who is wrong? The Elf from defending his home? (And if so, would you just stand and watch as somebody tore down your garden/house etc) The foresters for doing their job so the city can survive? The moral question is more or less the same with slaves. There is no fixed answer, and often your views depends on where you were brought up, and what costumas was used there - as well as your survival. I mean I bet quite a few "heroes" have slain city guards for doing their job. (which in real life would mean they were cop killers) Again they work for a "evil" government, but is HE´s actions evil or is the PC´s closer to it? Actually the alignment rule kept me from playing D&D for many years, until I found the beautiful universe of Forgotten Realms :) Okay ended quite a bit off topic...
souldnce9 06-16-07, 01:35 PM	I can honestly say that an elf who would put an arrow through somebodies skull just because of a heated discusion, has jumped out of the bounds of a chaotic good alignment. If arrow through skull was in self defense I could see other wise, but their are other ways to solve problems then through violence. Diplomacy is a wonderful skill. Finally, since this discussion is getting so serious, I'm gonna put in my two cents (switches from rogue character to cleric character, bzzzzzt). I really don't care what the alignment of the society or the person owning slaves is. Owning a person against their will is an evil act; one not excusable through ignorance. If you are a good moral person then you would know this. As far as freeing them Dan is absolutely right, to a point. Again Diplomacy is a wonderful skill and an outsider to society can be an effective agent in helping a nation see the errors of their ways. Not an overnight job, but can be done none the less. If the nation is a good one and has slaves out of ignorance then the job can be made easier, but if the nation is an evil one then you have a lot of work to do. However, as far as Skullport is concerned, freeing the slaves could be very effective. It is a small place and freeing slaves, from slavers, could put a dent in the idea that slaves are financially more sound then a free worker. As much as I detest killing, if a slaver refuses to see the error of his ways then perhaps death is the answer for them. As far as Thay goes, I would try to begin diplomatic talks, and hopefully with a strong nation with an army to back me. I know the initial talks would be unsuccessful, so in this case a war would be benificial *shivers* with a specialized team that would infiltrate the city to cause unrest amongst the slaves. This would spread Thay's sources thin. As a beginning tactic this might be effective. I would then try and continue diplomatic talks (I think I could influence some of their people, if given enough time; at least enough people to cause a seed of doubt amongst them). Any way it would be a lot of work, that I would be more than willing to attempt. I would just hate to see all the loss of life this tactic would cause, but hopefully in the long run it would prove effective and allow peace to reign in such a tumultuous land.
katarl 06-16-07, 03:41 PM	My elan psion prefers a different way to acquire slaves for his household, he scrounges up some young street-kid or orphan, either one he finds on the street or about to be disciplined by the guard (it's a very strict, hierarchical place). He then manifests psionic mindrape on them, carefully done to make the slave think it had always been a slave, and didn't mind being one. He then manifests psychic reformation, and allows the 1st level commoner (usually) to rechoose feats and skills- ie. some useful crafts and professions. I agree with some earlier posts about greek slaves, about 300 to 500gp for a slave sounds right, since thats less than half what a cottage costs. Significant, but not too pricy.
MarkusTay63 06-16-07, 03:51 PM	The idea of changing slavery via first changing social mentality is backwards and pointless. It's the people in charge of a country, or those who work within the rules of those in charge, who ultimately decide the motion of a country. Even the American Revolution played this role to an extent, since Britain was so far away as to hardly be considered a true governing body, and didn't really care any more partway through the war.Actually, they cared quite a bit, but were busy elsewhere defending their empire, and those other regions were easier to re-establish control in. They had every intention of coming back and retaking the U.S. later on when they could commit their full strength, and did exactly that in 1812. Don't forget the French revolution that happened 13 years after our own scared the beejezus out of the English Monarchy, and Napolean was keeping them busy around that time.
Boda 06-16-07, 07:45 PM	Free workers out perform slave labor not by percentages, but by multiples. :) So ok, even if a free worker performs better then let's say 3 slaves. Still, there's likely more slaves then that per free worker. If using slaves wasnt profitable, none would have them, right? Slave labour is profitable. So much that even today is used. GDan, what your saying isnt a cultural change?
katarl 06-17-07, 09:50 AM	Thinking about it, the price of slaves depends very much on the demand and the availability of the the slaves, but then, so does everything else in the phb, and there are definite market prices for them. It's not like an item, where you can inspect it to accurately gauge its worth. You can't generally gauge a persons work ethic, or ability. So expect a lot of variability. Best left to auction. The types of slave: Unskilled child/unskilled infirm x0.5 Children are expensive to rear, and the infirm are not particularly useful. Generally, children born to slaves are exposed, and the infirm are freed, because it is more cost-effective. Unskilled man/woman x1 Men may be stronger and more suitable for heavy lifting, but woman are more prized as house slaves. At 1sp/day, it'll be 1000 days to begin to see a profit, but that doesn't include feeding/clothing/sheltering them. Unskilled exotic x4 Creatures like elves, halflings, gnomes and dwarves where the race does not prominently feature in the demographic. They are a sign of wealth and add colour to a residence, but little else. Skilled child/infirm x3 Talented children, add colour, and may be useful later. The infirm may be kept for their skills, perhaps as a tutor. Skilled man/woman x4 Those with 4 ranks or more in profession, craft or perform. More ranks means more cost. Theoretically, any skill counts, however. Exotic skilled x8 Only bought by the richest and affluent citizens, a sure sign of wealth and prestige. My first instinct to pricing is to multiply what it would cost you to hire, then multiply that by 50. However, that leads to 5gp to buy an unskilled worker. A bit low, so I increase that to 50gp, multiplying 1sp/day by 500 (x50 for being unlimited, with a x10 cost modifier). That sounds about right, so i get 25gp child/infirm 1st commoner no skills 50gp adult 1st commoner no skills 200gp exotic 1st commoner no skills 150gp child/infirm 1st commoner useful skills 200gp adult 1st commoner useful skills 400gp exotic 1st commoner useful skills If you're buying by auction, the dm chooses the skills (usually maxed), but tells you what they are (if the dealer knows). You increase the cost by 50% for each level beyond 1st, eg. an exotic unskilled 4th level commoner costs 700gp. To buy a warrior, or an expert, you increase the base costs by x3, so an adult expert 1 with skills costs 600gp. To buy an adept or aristocrat, you increase the base cost by x6, so an adult adept 1 costs 1200gp. To buy a PC classed npc costs x10 as much, adult fighter 1 2000gp. Anything with LA counts as a PC, and is usually exotic. Each LA counts as one level. Particularly uncommon skills count as exotic (dm judgement). Creatures that are exotic for more than one trait (such as a half-dragon elf) add the exotic multiplier more than once (in this case, 500x4x4, plus LA). Racial hd counts as a level each. The slaves attitude to you depends on it's environment, and how well you treat it. If they were raised free, their base attitude towards you is unfriendly. If they were raised in captivity, their attitude is indifferent. Treated badly reduces their attitude by one step, treating them well increases it one step. How much is 'badly' and 'well' depends on that slaves expectations and prior experience (dm disgression). Personality may also change attitude one step- rebellious personality decreases by one, compliant increase by one. Helpful is the highest attitude, and Hostile the lowest (no fanatics). Attitude Starting attitude: Raised emancipated (modern standard) Hostile Raised Free (medieval standard) Unfriendly Raised a slave Indifferent Raised by master Friendly Attitude adjustments: Treated particularly badly -1 step Treated particularly well +1 step Personality- rebellious -1 step Personality- submissive +1 step A rebellious slave reduces the price by 25%, a submissive slave increases the price by 25%. Intimidate works on slaves, but revert back to normal start as per phb rules. Diplomacy doesn't work on slaves yet. Freeing a slave increases its attitude by one step. That's a quick and very dirty to approach to slave prices. Any thoughts on it? My thoughts so far: The costs for good slaves can get high worryingly fast.
Stigger 06-17-07, 04:34 PM	From what I recall, slave labor is actually more expensive long term, but not so much in the short term... smaller initial expense but a higher long term expense sort of thing. At least I seem to recall reading something to that effect in some book or other. Damned brain can't recall where exactly though... gah...
oberwald 06-18-07, 12:35 AM	I just wonder how you would rate real world leaders alignment, with the rather black/white view some of you have. So the Zhents are evil because they use slavery and violence to control their trading. So that´s all of europe some 300 years back, and quite alot of america too. What about starting wars for the need of raw materials? Which when all comes to an end is what wars are about most of the time? Who is evil? The oppressing Israel or the suicidal bombeers from Palestine? I don´t want answers (since I am NOT trying to make a political debate), but I am trying to state that you can not look at an action (most anyway) and declare it good or evil just like that. That was my point above, maybe I shouldn´t have used in game referrences? And as thus i fail to see how you can label all Zhents, Thayans etc as evil. Most are just products of their society and as such ought to be neutral. They aren´t doing "evil" deeds because they like doing it for fun, but because that is how they are told ít´s supposed to be. Anyway that´s how I view it, and why I find the alignment system somewhat off.
souldnce9 06-18-07, 04:53 AM	Oberwald, I wouldn't argue that the alignment system is perfect in any way, but I would say that it isn't as vague as you propose. Perhaps it isn’t so “Black & White” as the alignment system, but your examples certainly aren’t good ones to make the point you’re trying to make. If someone is goodly natured, treats people fairly, but still engages in something such as slavery; I would say he isn’t evil, maybe he is even lawful good. However, I would definitely consider slavery evil. So by association the good man is inadvertently doing evil. Obviously the slavery that took place 300 years back wasn’t good. It was socially accepted and people didn’t think that there was anything wrong with it, except however those people that were slaves. Are you going to tell a descendant from a slave that the slavers were right in doing what they did because it was socially accepted at the time? I don’t think so. (Sorry, you said you didn’t want an answer, but how could I not?) Starting a war to take another nations resources (and that includes land to live on) is definitely not a good act but evil. Retaliation through terrorism is also an evil act. Not all Zhents and Thayans are evil, but by association they commit evil acts as part of their society, and that is why they give nations alignments in D&D as well. Personally I try to play the alignment system very loosely. My group has thought many a time to do away with it, but because of spells and such it would require too much of an overhaul. So it is best just to avoid giving it as much attention as some do. ( :D As far as my comments above are concerned, I was speaking for a specific character that I play. If you look further back I’ve made comments that would imply that I could care less about the situation in Thay, and there I was in the role of another character. :D I like playing roles. :P ) As far as today’s “World” leaders are concerned; we need a good cleric to cast banishment on them so that they can be sent back to their homes in the 222nd layer of the Abyss.
oberwald 06-21-07, 08:24 AM	Hehe Agree on that last point anyway. I also think that alignment should be played loose, and no I don´t think that because what they did it at that time was socially acceptable, it´s okay. So far we agree ;) I am not so sure though that all slaves felt it was so bad though. Depends alot on the "master" yes, but many slaves had it no worse than freemen in the real world. You could argue that most people were slaves in all but name to some degree in the middle age. They were not allowed to leave the county they lived in, they were to work first on the landlords fields and then on their own. That meant that they worked a stiff 14 hrs a day. Anyway what I really tried to say is that why we dislike slavery so much is because we have become part of a system where freedom and individuality is valued greatly. It wasn´t for just a few 100 years ago.
MarkusTay63 06-21-07, 08:41 PM	Also, with the current influx of 'cheap labor' from the East (the Shou), the predominance of demi-humans, and the availability of Undead, I would say that the only interest Thay would realistically have for slaves is for 'pets' (attractive slaves), or for magical experimentation. There are just too many financially better options that I just don't really see it as a big 'import' business for them. Now, on the other hand, if they are 'aquiring' slaves for re-sale, either in Mulhorand or perhaps even in the Night Below, then I would say that it could be lucrative as an export business. Also, with their new economic interests and their wish to spread their enclaves to 'good' areas, I think that they would currently be down-playing their slave dealings. Thats just my take, at least on Thay.