Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Straploknight 10-30-07, 01:21 AM	So I started to check out some stuff in D20 modern after reading Extinction Beta's modern vs. past reply (well not really but somebody said something about drow vs. SEALs) and it got me thinking, what if some seals where transported back into FRs past (assuming FR had the equivalent of the SEALs) obviously they wouldn't have any hi-tech gadgets to rely on, nor fire arms, they would be left with hand to hand combat skills and melee weapons. I suppose in D20 speak, a SEAL would be a strong hero/soldier. Normal Strong Hero/Soldier St:16 Dx:15 Cn:14 In:13 Ws:11 Ch:8 Hit Points: 136 BaB: +17/+12/+5 Frt: +12 Ref: +10 Wil: +6 Talents: 5 Feats: 16 Skill Points: 112 Defense Bonus: +10 Reputation bonus +4 Action Points: 21 Special: Simple Weapons prof, weapons specialization, improved critical, improved reaction, greater weapon specialization, critical strike Drow Fighter St:14 Dx:14 Cn:11 In:13 Ws:10 Ch:10 Hit Points: 105 Bab: +20/+15/+10/+5 Frt: +12 Ref: +8 Wil: +6 Feats: 18 Skill Points: 69 Special: Racial Abilites Actually, wow! although normals n D20 get some really good base abilities, compared to D&D critters which helps alot, the Strong Hero/Soldier is a pretty solid build as well, they aren't as skilled as a D&D fighter, nor do they have the flexibility, but they are potent none the less.
johnkretzer 10-30-07, 02:02 AM	Personaly I would wait till 4th edition to come out for this comparsion. As then you would be able to build both under a similar system.
Straploknight 10-30-07, 02:13 AM	Perhaps the 4e design team should tease us a bit and post a 4e drow fighter to counter the D20 SEAL
Zanan 10-30-07, 05:51 AM	Make that drow fighter a drow hexblade ... just to keep the theme and all. BTW, the S.E.A.L. himself is more like a scout/fighter sort of thing, than something straight ... though I have no clue about d20 anyway, so I rather watch what will go on here then trying to bring more pointless D&D stuff in the mix. :cool:
Stigger 10-30-07, 08:30 AM	Factor in the psychological stress of the SEAL in a radically different environment and we come up with a very dead human in a relatively short period of time. US Army Special Forces I could see surviving somewhat, given their familiarity with other cultures and ability to adapt to situations that have little to do with combat environments... same with a group like the SAS, who are also used to dealing with foreign cultures in non-combat situations. Outside of that I don't see all that many military types doing all that well in Faerun... particularly if their weapons and hi-tech gear isn't working.
GreenKnight 11-02-07, 01:07 AM	Factor in the psychological stress of the SEAL in a radically different environment and we come up with a very dead human in a relatively short period of time. Eh, I don't buy it. Being put into a stressful situation doesn't mean you automatically fold like a cheap lawnchair. It'd be freaky popping into Faerun, but the SEAL's not about to go catatonic when his life's in danger. When you're that welltrained, you don't freeze up when you're in danger. You react. Anyway, I'd rather see how a member of Delta Force/SAS would do, as they're just about the toughest mothers on the face of the Earth. And why aren't they allowed to bring their guns into Faerun? Honestly, if you're gonna take away their guns, then you may as well take away the Drow's weapons, too. That sort of defeats the whole point, really.
Stigger 11-02-07, 02:16 AM	I wasn't getting at them freezing up, quite the opposite actually, going into something of a reactionary state of mind rather than a more thoughtful one that would be better suited to long term survival. From what little I know of SEAL training and conditioning, they're more like Army Rangers in their shoot first, ask questions later sort of mindframe, with shorter deployments and less far reaching operational goals (at least in comparison to an ODAs), from what I know of them anyway. I agree, they would react, which is kind of the problem I see with them, as they may not be as inclined to be as thoughtful as one of their SAS/SF counterparts. As to why we're taking away their guns, that's mostly because gunpowder is known not to work in the Realms, nor electronic devices. They can bring them, but they won't function, so they might as well not have them. Though I'd suggest that according to everything I've read, Germany's Mountain Leader School is widely acknowledged as producing the toughest sods on the planet... but that's probably a matter of splitting hairs at that degree of performance and ability.
GreenKnight 11-04-07, 11:37 PM	As to why we're taking away their guns, that's mostly because gunpowder is known not to work in the Realms, nor electronic devices. Not existing isn't the same as not working. I see no reason whatsoever why gunpowder wouldn't work in the Realms. Maybe there's a lore explanation that I don't know about, who knows? But I can think of no logical explanation why a gun wouldn't be able to work in the Realms. As for no electronic items, that still wouldn't affect a gun. Even if one assumed the Realms was suffering from some kind of persistent EMP effect, that wouldn't affect a gun in the slightest. A laser gun, maybe, but a regular old gun?
johnkretzer 11-04-07, 11:43 PM	Not existing isn't the same as not working. I see no reason whatsoever why gunpowder wouldn't work in the Realms. Maybe there's a lore explanation that I don't know about, who knows? But I can think of no logical explanation why a gun wouldn't be able to work in the Realms. As for no electronic items, that still wouldn't affect a gun. Even if one assumed the Realms was suffering from some kind of persistent EMP effect, that wouldn't affect a gun in the slightest. A laser gun, maybe, but a regular old gun? There was some hand wave befgore that the law of physic were different enough from Earth's that gunpowder wouldn't work. As to the electronics not working that is even easier as the magnetic positive and negative polls might be different. Which I know I probably just slaughtered physics as it has been awhile so if any physics buffs know what I am talking about and can clarify it I'll be most greatful.
Lord Karsus 11-05-07, 12:00 AM	There was some hand wave befgore that the law of physic were different enough from Earth's that gunpowder wouldn't work. -Smokepowder and gunpowder work (virtually) the same way.
johnkretzer 11-05-07, 12:47 AM	-Smokepowder and gunpowder work (virtually) the same way. No smokepowder is magical in nature.
Lord Karsus 11-05-07, 01:46 AM	No smokepowder is magical in nature. -Hence why I said 'virtually'.
GreenKnight 11-05-07, 03:24 AM	I'm not particularly knowledgeable about guns (I could ask my brother-in-law, who's an expert, but it's pretty late here), but couldn't the SEAL replace the gunpowder in his bullets for smoke powder? In the interest of being fair, and all. The poor schmuck would've probably spent several Feats on proficiencies, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and similar Feats on firearms. It's pretty lame for those Feats to go to waste. If you're gonna do that, then you'd have to give the Drow an equal number of worthless Feats (Skill Focus [Profession: Seamstress], Skill Focus [Profession: Cobbler], Skill Focus [Profession: Basketweaver], etc).
Bullet06320 11-05-07, 04:34 AM	Regardless of what type of Speacial Operation Forces your talking about, US Army Speacial Forces, Rangers, Delta Force, Marine Force Recon, US Navy Seal, British SAS or SBS, Russian Spetnatz or a member of any of a number of similar military organizations, these men are highly trained and about as tough as they get. Many of these men have years of speacialized training in a variety of military and combat skills. In game terms this would mean several extra levels compared to regular soldiers. Multi-classing Scout, Fighter, Rouge, and Expert levels depending on the indivduals training. As to Modern Weopons transported to The Forgotten Realms, I haven't read anything specific as to why the equiptment wouldn't work. DM call of course. Electronics would still function as long as power supply lasted such as Radios and Flashlights Of Course GPS, Sattalite Communications, Cellphones and InterNet Connections wouldn't get signal because the supporting infrastructure doesn't exist in The Forgotten Realms. Modern Fire Arms would still work, But once your out of Ammo, you would have to find the raw materials and have the Knowledge of making Gunpowder. I don't see why Smokepowder if found wouldn't be a suitable subsitutue, again DM call. You would also have to have Casings and projectiles made. Casings could be reused and reloaded though. you would also have to have the equptment made for that as well. Go find a Tinker Gnome or Dwarvin Smith. Explosives, they should work just fine as long as thier supply last, Not to mention that the have no resupply mechanism or any kind of Artillery or Airsupport available to them. As to Survival, SOF Troops would at least in the Short Term survive and kickass in most enviroments, of course seeing Dragons and Drow or other native creatures would be Very Confusing and Unsettleing at the least. Unless these men learned to adapt to the new conditions, survival in the Long Term might be difficult at best. Hunting and gathering skills to live off the land is common amongst SOF soldiers particulary US Speacial Forces and Rangers. With the knowledge of Modern Technology and Science they could verywell set themselves up verywell as inventors and smiths providing new devices and such in a middle ages setting with magic and such. Or as trained soldiers could find work as Mercinaries and Bodyguards and similar. Language barriers provide different problems. Many SOF Forces speak different languages so they can operate in different areas of the world, and it wouldn't be to hard to pick up at least a little bit of the local dialects quickly. If going against Magic, They don't stand a chance at first, they've never trained for that type of situation. Short Term with a full Combat Load of Equipment and working Weopons, Drow what get thier asses handed to them. Long Term, it would depend on how these men adapted to thier circumstances but I would favor the Drow here, they are trained and used to this style combat.
Stigger 11-05-07, 04:47 AM	Sure, they could, but the 'power' that smokepowder can produce probably isn't anywhere near what modern cordite can. Besides, its not just a matter of 'power' coming into play, but for all we know the gases and residue produced by smokepowder going off could be quite corrosive to whatever metal is being used in the weapons in question. Then you add in the difficulty of actually producing that hand-built ammunition. Modern production tolerances are likely near-impossible to produce on Faerun to all but a few groups, and the cost involved would remove that little idea from practicality in the first place. Sure, you could say that they had the machinery necessary, an unlikely prospect to say the least, but I can't imagine any self-respecting gunsmith sticking an unknown substance with unknown ballistic properties into a bullet, and just hoping it works out for the best... I think I'd get punched in the face if I even suggested such a thing to friend of mine, who used to be a Marine Corps armorer, although certainly not one of the impressive fellows at Quantico if you were wondering. As to giving the drow an equal number of worthless feats, why? Life isn't exactly fair afterall, and they aren't wasted, they just aren't particularly useful on Faerun.
Stigger 11-05-07, 04:58 AM	The physics of the Realms being different from most places was established at least as far back as 2e, and was in the equivalent of the FRCS, page 9 of the Running the Realms booklet. As to gunpowder not working, were it as simple to create as blackpowder is, it wouldn't be all that difficult to produce, and if they can come up with an alchemical 'counterpart' that seems much more complex in nature, but not relatively mundane gunpowder, then that says to me that basic black poweder wouldn't work. Though as a side note, smokepowder in all likelihood would not generate enough 'power' to cycle most modern weapons properly, at least I wouldn't think so given the likely muzzle velocities based off of what we know of firearms, at least not in the quantities one could stick into a bullet.
GreenKnight 11-05-07, 06:31 AM	As to giving the drow an equal number of worthless feats, why? Life isn't exactly fair afterall, and they aren't wasted, they just aren't particularly useful on Faerun. In that case, why even make them the same level? Why not make the Drow an Epic Level Wizard with artifacts up the wazoo and the SEAL a 5th-level Fighter equivalent? The whole point is to take one individual from one world, and pit him against an individual from another world who's just as tough and skilled. If the first guy has abilities and skills which are completely worthless in that matchup, then it sort of defeats the whole point of the exercise.
Stigger 11-05-07, 06:45 AM	Well, oddly enough, I kinda went by the assumption that the fight took place in the Realms, which was kinda the point of the OP. If you're gonna stick it in the Realms, you go by rules of the Realms... and those rules say that technology doesn't work in the Realms. That puts the SEAL at a distinct disadvantage in a lot of respects... sorry, but read the OP again and note that the fact that firearms and gadgetry were assumed to not be there. Its kinda like a hulking fellow who's specialized in the two-handed sword finding themselves fighting in the close-quarters of a cave with no room to maneuver the weapon complaining because they wasted feats... Besides, there's nothing that says those feats couldn't apply to a light crossbow with the Quick-Loading special ability. There are tons of ways you could make the equivalent of a semi-automatic rifle in the Realms via magic... hell, it wouldn't be that big of a stretch to make something like a semi-auto carbine with an undercarriage grenade launcher if you had access to a willing wizard and a few competant artisans. As an afterthought however, lets take a look at the SEAL with a firearm. First off, take into account muzzle flash from a M-16a2 that isn't using a suppressor. In all likelihood, that's gonna blind the hell out of a Drow in a nightfight, so you get a slightly stunned drow who has one to three 5.56mm lead slugs travelling at 3,110 feet per second towards him, which quite honestly is going to at least knock them on their arses for a round or two, presuming it doesn't rip through their armor in the first place, and presumably as they fall are going to have two to six (presuming the 90 rounds per minute burst rate of fire, so no more than 3 bursts per round) more just like the first one(s) travelling towards him as well that are going to prove quite lethal, which also have the happy coincidence of blinding and dazing him even more... sure, that sounds like a fair fight...
Lord Karsus 11-05-07, 10:22 AM	-Speacial Forces are trained to kill in various ways. They don't necessarily need to have their guns. Without them, they are only in a "minor" disadvantage.
Derren S. 11-06-07, 05:46 AM	-Speacial Forces are trained to kill in various ways. They don't necessarily need to have their guns. Without them, they are only in a "minor" disadvantage. Against someone who still has their main weapon they are at a big disadvantage (especially as I don't think many seals learn to defend themselves against swords and spears and also don't really learn how to fight against someone in medival armor.)
Bullet06320 11-06-07, 06:25 AM	The physics of the Realms being different from most places was established at least as far back as 2e, and was in the equivalent of the FRCS, page 9 of the Running the Realms booklet. As to gunpowder not working, were it as simple to create as blackpowder is, it wouldn't be all that difficult to produce, and if they can come up with an alchemical 'counterpart' that seems much more complex in nature, but not relatively mundane gunpowder, then that says to me that basic black poweder wouldn't work. Though as a side note, smokepowder in all likelihood would not generate enough 'power' to cycle most modern weapons properly, at least I wouldn't think so given the likely muzzle velocities based off of what we know of firearms, at least not in the quantities one could stick into a bullet. Your right about the difference with the gunpowder, Cordite, Smokepowder difference. The Range and performance would be different but chemically speaking would achieve similar results. As far as corrosion and wear differences probably would cause long term malfunctions I checked Running the Realms and you are correct, the Electronics would not work but it says nothing about mechanical items, so they should still function
Bullet06320 11-06-07, 06:37 AM	As an afterthought however, lets take a look at the SEAL with a firearm. First off, take into account muzzle flash from a M-16a2 that isn't using a suppressor. In all likelihood, that's gonna blind the hell out of a Drow in a nightfight, so you get a slightly stunned drow who has one to three 5.56mm lead slugs travelling at 3,110 feet per second towards him, which quite honestly is going to at least knock them on their arses for a round or two, presuming it doesn't rip through their armor in the first place, and presumably as they fall are going to have two to six (presuming the 90 rounds per minute burst rate of fire, so no more than 3 bursts per round) more just like the first one(s) travelling towards him as well that are going to prove quite lethal, which also have the happy coincidence of blinding and dazing him even more... sure, that sounds like a fair fight... Actually most of the US Military uses M-4 Carbines now, a lighter shorter barreled version of the M-16. and many SOF soldiers use a variety of different wepeons depending on the mission they are on. Heckler and Kock wepeons are very common though, particullary various versions of the HKMP5. And I have seen an M16 round go through an engine block. I forgot about the flash effect underground or in the dark, huge advantage there assuming the wepeons work
Stigger 11-06-07, 08:29 AM	Still not that much difference between the overall muzzle velocities at the likely encounter ranges likely to be involved. That and the M-4 (probably the SOPMOD version) you get greater muzzle flash from the shorter barrel, so even worse, unless of course its fitted with a suppressor, which changes things a bit, but there's still pretty significant flash effects for the Drow I would think. Honestly though, I just didn't care to get into the intricacies of fully automatic rates of fire, since that just gets silly for purposes of the example, hence the M-16a2 suited my needs a bit better, as it comes out slightly better for the Drow, sorta. The MP5 just presented too many problems for an example though, mostly the SD versus K versus N and so forth. Not that there's really that much variation of effectiveness for anything but the SD, and even then only really when using sub-sonic ammunition, but with the K comes atrocious flash effects, the SD hardly any, N has way too many variables in and of itself... too many headaches to adress it. My problem with gunpowder working is that its a much simpler and easier answer than smokepowder seems to be, so I tend to go with it not quite working correctly given the existance of smokepowder as the easiest answer... shortest distance between two points and all that. The biggest problem I see with the Smokepowder load solution though isn't really corrosion so much as particles jamming the works of the weapon. Modern cordite is pretty damned clean compared to early gunpowder, and I doubt a weapon built to modern machine tolerances would really take all that well to something as coarse and Smokepowder likely is.
Suin Bahhar 11-06-07, 10:41 AM	Do they battle in the underdark? Then drow wins hands down. On a forested surface area I think the seal coul learn to anticipate the magical abilities of drow like globes of darkness (maybe he played some D&D :P) and get the drop on the drow fighter. See even seals know that knowing is half the battle ;)
Lord Karsus 11-06-07, 04:09 PM	Do they battle in the underdark? Then drow wins hands down. -Nightvision, or Thermal Heating goggles solves that problem for the Special Forces guys. even seals know that knowing is half the battle ;) -Go Joe! Against someone who still has their main weapon they are at a big disadvantage (especially as I don't think many seals learn to defend themselves against swords and spears and also don't really learn how to fight against someone in medival armor.) -No, but when you get the jump on your enemy, and break their neck, or slice their throat before they even realize that you are there, weapons and armor don't make much of a difference.
johnkretzer 11-06-07, 04:15 PM	-Nightvision, or Thermal Heating goggles solves that problem for the Special Forces guys. Have you ever used those things...I admitt I haven't personaly but the drow will still have a advantage as those devices have a very limited field of view compared to normal vision. -No, but when you get the jump on your enemy, and break their neck, or slice their throat before they even realize that you are there, weapons and armor don't make much of a difference. Yup so I guess you are saying the S.E.A.Ls loose?
Bullet06320 11-06-07, 04:28 PM	My problem with gunpowder working is that its a much simpler and easier answer than smokepowder seems to be, so I tend to go with it not quite working correctly given the existance of smokepowder as the easiest answer... shortest distance between two points and all that. The biggest problem I see with the Smokepowder load solution though isn't really corrosion so much as particles jamming the works of the weapon. Modern cordite is pretty damned clean compared to early gunpowder, and I doubt a weapon built to modern machine tolerances would really take all that well to something as coarse and Smokepowder likely is. Cordite is much Cleaner than Blackpowder, as for smokepowder who knows? using a different load for the weopon would cause some difficulties in game terms, having to constantly clean the weopon would probably be neccessary but the exact would have to be left up to the DM to determine the long term effects, eventually the weopon would become too worn down for effective use and then they would need to create substitute weopons and given enuf skill and time would be possible. Also in Running the Realms, Language would not be a problem either, when you enter the realms you automattically understand common
Bullet06320 11-06-07, 04:31 PM	[QUOTE=Lord Karsus;14264469]-Nightvision, or Thermal Heating goggles solves that problem for the Special Forces guys. QUOTE] Stigger pointed out page 9 of FRCS Running the Realms Booklet, the electronics wouldn't work extrapoints to the drow underground. at least till the shooting started and muzzleflash was accounted for
Stigger 11-06-07, 05:04 PM	I'm absolutely certain Karsus knew that one... must be just testing us to see if we're paying attention. Though I'm not certain he was referring to the Drow in the sneaky throat slitting example... SF types are kinda known to do that as well. I would argue the logic behind any self-respecting SF type ever entering the Underdark without some Major-Preparation and even then I'd wonder about it... spelunking is an extremely dangerous sport, they of all people would certainly know it, so wouldn't likely try it unless they had a very compelling reason to do so. So, unless the SF type was ported directly to the underdark I don't see the fight happening down there while still being 'fair'...
Lord Karsus 11-06-07, 07:35 PM	Have you ever used those things...I admitt I haven't personaly but the drow will still have a advantage as those devices have a very limited field of view compared to normal vision. -Drow only have Darkvision/Infravision of 120'. Not sure how far Nightvision/Thermal Imaging gives, but if it's less than 120', other factors, such as sound and whatnot can make up for the difference. Sure, you might not be able to see 'em, but if you can hear 'em, that's half the battle. Yup so I guess you are saying the S.E.A.Ls loose? -No, but I'm saying that a Special Forces soldier isn't completely dumbfounded, lost and afraid without his main arm(s). I'm absolutely certain Karsus knew that one... must be just testing us to see if we're paying attention. -Yes, yes...Points for Stigger. Here, have one of these Potions of Love that KtM brewed. Though I'm not certain he was referring to the Drow in the sneaky throat slitting example... SF types are kinda known to do that as well. -Another point, as that is indeed what I was referring to.
Derren S. 11-07-07, 04:10 AM	-No, but when you get the jump on your enemy, and break their neck, or slice their throat before they even realize that you are there, weapons and armor don't make much of a difference. Lol right...... Even with IR Goggles (Nightvision doesn't really work in the underdark as some light is needed) the Drow has trained their whole life to fight in such a territory and probably will know the tunnels down there. The Seals do not and thus its highly unlikely that they can surprise them.
Lord Karsus 11-07-07, 10:51 AM	Lol right...... Even with IR Goggles (Nightvision doesn't really work in the underdark as some light is needed) the Drow has trained their whole life to fight in such a territory and probably will know the tunnels down there. The Seals do not and thus its highly unlikely that they can surprise them. -When your back is turned, you cannot see anything behind you.
Derren S. 11-07-07, 11:18 AM	-When your back is turned, you cannot see anything behind you. How should the seals know when the drown turn the back towards them? How should the seals even know that the drows are there? The drow still have an advantage in detecting the seals and a huge advantage in navigating the underdark.
Suin Bahhar 11-07-07, 11:22 AM	Get the drop on a drow. My last character (a strength rogue) did just that when he first encountered a drow scout party while defending a halfdrow caravan. Critted a sneak attack with a shortbow for massive damage on a drow on an upper stoneplatform. Seconds later he heard a rival drow rogue sneaking up on him and with a firm hit with a shortsword that one went down like a whet sack. You can hear what you dont see, so attacks from behind are not foolproof. P.S. I think my DM had realy lowlevel drow as adversaries as we were only 3rd level. It also helped that our halfdrow caravaner was a wizard.
Lord Karsus 11-07-07, 11:46 AM	How should the seals know when the drown turn the back towards them? How should the seals even know that the drows are there? The drow still have an advantage in detecting the seals and a huge advantage in navigating the underdark. -This is a theoretical situation, so there is no answer. I can counter you by asking, how the Drow would know that there is a Special Forces soldier prowling around?
Stigger 11-07-07, 04:51 PM	I dunno, in the underdark, only a fool travels without being highly alert and prepared for attack at any moment... I'd have to say that if the encounter was there, the Drow have a major advantage in that they are constantly expecting attack. Hardly true of the SF types, who's biggest worry would be a collapsing tunnel or pocket of 'cave gas' they might run into... not many monsters leaping out at you at Carlsbad Caverns afterall. ;)
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 12:49 PM	... not many monsters leaping out at you at Carlsbad Caverns afterall. ;) -Depends on the situation, again. I am sure that Special Forces units prowling in Tora Bora are constantly on alert for "monsters" leaping out at them.
Stigger 11-08-07, 03:01 PM	Probably, but not quite the same thing as an umber hulk coming out of the wall itself at you... or a drow levitating in magical darkness waiting to pounce. Up isn't the usual direction of attack in caves as far as I know. ;)
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 07:12 PM	Up isn't the usual direction of attack in caves as far as I know. ;) -Never been spelunking before, and were I ever to, I'd make sure the caves were not "hostile", like these!
Suin Bahhar 11-08-07, 07:18 PM	Trained drow are scarier than equally trained humans, that's for sure.
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 07:19 PM	Trained drow are scarier than trained humans, that's for sure. -Both have their pros and cons. For example, I don't think that the group of Special Forces would summarily kill one another.
johnkretzer 11-08-07, 09:09 PM	Sigh it is really silly question....it depends on where the fight happens... In the Underdark Drow will win as they would have their full abilities, home field advantage, and training to deal with that kind of enviroment. The SEALs would not have the tech support to counter the magic(assuming FR), SEALs are really trained to deal with a underground enviroment, and if they do(which I doubt)...they sumply aren't trained to deal with the Underdark. On the surface of Faerun (or Earth's own 'Underdark') it would be more equal...though on the surfaces of Faerun I think it would slightly favor the Drow just because of magic's impact on the fight. On Earth's surface the Drow would probably last about 2 seconds...(assuming tha magic doesn't work in our world)
Zsych 11-11-07, 12:23 AM	*considers vaguely... drow trained possibly since childhood... grown up in that kind of environment and having to be careful even of friends... with physical combat their main profession.... vs. the kind of characters who could refuse to go to Iraq because its too dangerous??? (alright so seals probably wouldn't do that)... but basically just a bunch of people who have almost never killed someone with their bare hands, and would never let themselves gain the kind of fighting mentality the drow have because its just basically evil.... AND with the drow having their swords.* The SEALs are screwed, even if they are topside. I'd probably even give it to the drow(but less casually), if the drow also didn't have weapons and armor. The difference in actual lives and the amount of training they've gone through should leave at least a talented drow better off. Its possible that a low-end untalented bum of a drow soldier would be overcome by a seal though.
95 11-11-07, 01:44 PM	i would think a veteran SEAL would be a pretty competent hand to hand, knife and probebly spear (equivilent training of a Rifle with a bayonette on it) fighter... its not like these guys spent a couple of years training and just missed the day of hand to hand combat.... another thing is.... these men are the cream of the crop of the earths professional soldiers ... i highly doubt any of them are going to fold up when put in a stressfull situation.... reacting and adapting keeps you alive on the battlefield... i doubt they forget that anywhere they go
CreationOmega 11-11-07, 03:34 PM	Watch, the stupid Drow would open up some hole in the bottom of a house (being the house experts), they would levitate up...then what you ask? Boom! Claymore mine, thanks for playing. Try again in the next life. Then let's say some Drow survive, they make in into the house....but wait theres more?! A stationary turret waiting with motion sensors....guned down. Couldn't even touch the Seals.
Lord Karsus 11-11-07, 06:19 PM	...but basically just a bunch of people who have almost never killed someone with their bare hands, and would never let themselves gain the kind of fighting mentality the drow have because its just basically evil.... AND with the drow having their swords.* -As I said earlier, Special Forces are trained to kill using weapons other than their guns. How do you think the Special Forces who were dropped into Germany in the days before D-Day survived without drawing too much attention to themselves? another thing is.... these men are the cream of the crop of the earths professional soldiers ... i highly doubt any of them are going to fold up when put in a stressfull situation.... reacting and adapting keeps you alive on the battlefield... i doubt they forget that anywhere they go -Also, as I mentioned before, Special Forces units are always very close. As the motto goes, "No one gets left behind." They fight as a cohesive unit, looking out for one another. The Drow? They're liable to kill each other before combat with another group actually begins.
Stigger 11-11-07, 06:23 PM	Why would you be expecting an attack from what is presumably the inside of your defensive perimeter? And maybe I'm missing something, but why exactly would a SEAL team be hauling around something as heavy as a stationary turret? Presuming such a thing exists, haven't kept up of late sorry, wouldn't it be employed in base defense, rather than something to weigh down highly mobile light troops? And I don't recall anyone saying that SEALs would fold in a fight, since they wouldn't by any stretch, just that they would not adapt to an entirely new world nearly as well as the sorts that go into the Army Special Forces or SAS. SEALs are essentially short-term shock troops who rely on stealth and skill, but with relatively short legs compared to SF/SAS types. Ultimately though, they are just humans, not supermen as is apparently being supposed. Don't forget that quite a few got killed when fighting in Panama by relatively unskilled soldiers (at least in comparison to themselves), in just one instance. Good, but certainly not invincible. Not to be nitpicky LK, but most of those guys who got dropped in weren't Rangers per se, being referred to as Jedburgh teams deployed by the OSS (precursor to the CIA) as far as I know, although modern Army Special Forces certainly trace themselves from those teams as well in a lot of respects.
Lord Karsus 11-11-07, 06:33 PM	Not to be nitpicky LK, but most of those guys who got dropped in weren't Rangers per se, being referred to as Jedburgh teams deployed by the OSS (precursor to the CIA) as far as I know, although modern Army Special Forces certainly trace themselves from those teams as well in a lot of respects. -Hollywood lied!? Damn you, Saving Private Ryan!
Stigger 11-11-07, 06:57 PM	Well if it makes you feel better, most of them did have to go through Ranger and Airborne training as I recall... a lot of them even came out of those units, but they were owned and operated by OSS.
CreationOmega 11-11-07, 08:12 PM	Oh my friend, but you think too simplemindedly. What about the sniper? 300 yards away with cross-hairs. Where you have Drow shooting mere Cross-bolts. Also condone the fact that if the sniper were to play the role of a "scout", and that being that the unit has micro voice communication...any drow spotted would be known to the entire unit at once.
Lord Karsus 11-11-07, 08:23 PM	Oh my friend, but you think too simplemindedly. What about the sniper? 300 yards away with cross-hairs. Where you have Drow shooting mere Cross-bolts. Also condone the fact that if the sniper were to play the role of a "scout", and that being that the unit has micro voice communication...any drow spotted would be known to the entire unit at once. -Well, we're assuming that this is taking place in the Realms, where most modern-day weapons of war wouldn't work.
CreationOmega 11-11-07, 10:53 PM	-Well, we're assuming that this is taking place in the Realms, where most modern-day weapons of war wouldn't work. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I had thought that this topic was based on the fantasy setting if Modern warfare would go head to head with that of the Realms warfare?
Lord Karsus 11-11-07, 11:56 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I had thought that this topic was based on the fantasy setting if Modern warfare would go head to head with that of the Realms warfare? -It depends on where the "battle" takes place.
Stigger 11-12-07, 12:54 AM	It was stipulated from the start of the thread that it takes place on Faerun, hence no guns or electronics... on Earth, the equation is quite different, but on Faerun it's pretty much advantage Drow. Not that it means automatic win, far from really, but the superior nightvision is a rather large advantage as should be obvious from the US military's general preference for nightfighting when feasible.
Bullet06320 11-12-07, 04:59 AM	It was stipulated from the start of the thread that it takes place on Faerun, hence no guns or electronics... on Earth, the equation is quite different, but on Faerun it's pretty much advantage Drow. We Solved the problem about Electronics not working, Right in the Books. But I don't think we solved the problem about the guns. The Books don't say anthing about Strictly Machanical Devices Therefore the guns should still work as long as they have Ammo, Advantage Seals
Stigger 11-12-07, 05:00 AM	Guns aren't purely mechanical, the ammunition requires a chemical reaction, which could be seen in the same family as electronics depending on how you're defining it.
Derren S. 11-12-07, 08:32 AM	Therefore the guns should still work as long as they have Ammo, Advantage Seals Even when they do work there wouldn't be much of an advantage. Look at teh D&D stats of such guns. They aren't really that powerful, especially when they are not enchanted.
Lord Karsus 11-12-07, 01:11 PM	Even when they do work there wouldn't be much of an advantage. Look at teh D&D stats of such guns. They aren't really that powerful, especially when they are not enchanted. -We'd have to look at the D20 Modern stats for guns, since these are actual guns, and not D&D guns. I've got no clue what the stats are, though.
boards 11-12-07, 09:16 PM	If guns are not in the equation then the SEALS would have no hope. Modern soldiers, even speical forces are not particularly well trained in unarmed combat. They learn a small amount of H2H combat to make sure that they have some chance of surviving if they do loose there weapons, but put them up against a trained swordsman and they have no chance. What they will have is a mindset that allows them to push beyond pain and fatigue, and an ability to focus during a fight that may allow them to defeat somewhat better trained individuals in a H2H fight. Give them a melee weapon and put them against a trained exponent with that weapon and NO chance.
Derren S. 11-13-07, 04:38 AM	-We'd have to look at the D20 Modern stats for guns, since these are actual guns, and not D&D guns. I've got no clue what the stats are, though. Modern guns in D&D stats are about as powerful as bows except with longer range I think (which doesn't matter much in the underdark anyway). And I don't think that guns are so "uber" in D20 Modern either as it is very likely that someone will shoot at the PCs so there must be a chance to survive that. The basic stats for guns and bows are probably rather similar. So for high level characters having D20Modern guns isn't really an advantage considering that the drow will probably have enchanted weapons which are much stronger than unenchanted guns.
Bullet06320 11-13-07, 06:07 AM	Guns aren't purely mechanical, the ammunition requires a chemical reaction, which could be seen in the same family as electronics depending on how you're defining it. Nothing I've seen about chemicals reacting differently. Chemical and Electronic would fall into to different catagories sofar as long as you got ammo, guns work
Bullet06320 11-13-07, 06:10 AM	If guns are not in the equation then the SEALS would have no hope. Modern soldiers, even speical forces are not particularly well trained in unarmed combat. They learn a small amount of H2H combat to make sure that they have some chance of surviving if they do loose there weapons, but put them up against a trained swordsman and they have no chance. What they will have is a mindset that allows them to push beyond pain and fatigue, and an ability to focus during a fight that may allow them to defeat somewhat better trained individuals in a H2H fight. Give them a melee weapon and put them against a trained exponent with that weapon and NO chance. I'm a spent time in the Army, I learned Basic HTH in Basic Training, In Ranger School, I learned more advanced HTH Training. I know alot a guys with Blackbelts and equivelent HTH Training including myself
Bullet06320 11-13-07, 06:59 AM	Straight out of the D20 Modern Weapons Locker M-16 and its varients 2d8 Damage, carried by most US Military Personel M-14 2d10 Damage, still carried by some SOF Marksmen HK Assualt Riffles and Submachine Guns 2d8 or 2d10 depending on model, carried by many SOF soldiers So non-enchanted modern weapons do pack a decent punch compared to swords and bows etc. wether enchanted or not I looked at explosives, and that would probably be on equal footing with lower level fireballs
Stigger 11-13-07, 09:49 AM	Modern trained swordsman versus a military type? Hah, doubtful the swordsman would last long, as the focus these days is on form and aesthetics rather than actual killing techniques. As to the chemical reactions of ammunition, that kinda depends to my mind. It would make sense to me that it depended on why electronics didn't work. If its just some interference field or something that screws with electricity conducting through metal, then yeah, most ammunition would work just fine. If its a difference in the underlying way that physics works, they may not work at all, hence, smokepowder & its alchemical manufacture... which if you look at the historical definition of alchemy could go either way as to how magical dependent it is or isn't. The description in Magic of Faerun says its similar to gunpowder, but similar can mean a lot of things, depending on what one chooses to apply it to, and doesn't necessarily make it exactly the same thing. That's really a DMs call to my mind, as it makes certain presumptions that have never been spelled out either way, but which has been implied both ways in some respects.
ChuutRiit 11-13-07, 11:24 AM	As far as I know, it is indeed a fundamental difference in basic physics that leads to chemical explosives and electronics being rendered nonfunctional when inside Realmspace. Too bad, somebody get me a Gellar Field Generator ASAP! :lightbulb:
CreationOmega 11-13-07, 05:55 PM	As far as I know, it is indeed a fundamental difference in basic physics that leads to chemical explosives and electronics being rendered nonfunctional when inside Realmspace. Too bad, somebody get me a Gellar Field Generator ASAP! :lightbulb: Yes, the electronics made from the Realms universe...but we are comparing warfare between 2 different universes...are we not? Reason being, all of the modern warfares listed in this topic are no where mentioned in any forgotten realms novels/games/sources. And what says the realms are not within modern-time universe...all of these post are putting the realms with it's advtages: Fighting in the realms universe/Fighting in the underdark/Fighting one of the strongest races in the realms/the modern warfare doesn't work in thier area. Try it the other way around and say that. Having Drow in a redifned military spec-op base with survalence cameras/trip wires/stationary turrets and much more. Not to mention the fact that in OUR UNIVERSE, magic does not work, as in comparision to thiers technology doesn't work. Stop seeing the glass half-empty when I see it half-full. OR! How about a neuatral zone where both have all the nessicities they normally would. Then they commence a battle. So then...Seals FTW?
Lord Karsus 11-13-07, 06:34 PM	OR! How about a neuatral zone where both have all the nessicities they normally would. Then they commence a battle. -If this was the case, I'd give advantage to the SEALs.
Stigger 11-13-07, 07:01 PM	...and it got me thinking, what if some seals where transported back into FRs past (assuming FR had the equivalent of the SEALs) obviously they wouldn't have any hi-tech gadgets to rely on, nor fire arms, they would be left with hand to hand combat skills and melee weapons. Sorry, going off of the OP's initial scenario... wasn't aware we were making assumptions beyond that. :P
johnkretzer 11-13-07, 07:34 PM	-If this was the case, I'd give advantage to the SEALs. Um...greater invisible Drow beat guns...and any detecting tech there is...drow win hands down if they have magic.... Magic > Tech
Lord Karsus 11-13-07, 08:14 PM	Um...greater invisible Drow beat guns...and any detecting tech there is...drow win hands down if they have magic.... -Greater Invisibility is useless when the SEALs in question are using infrared technology. Since the Drow would be attacking under the cover of darkness, or in the Underdark, this would nullify their advantage of invisibility and surprise. Invisibility is not Infrainvisibility. Much to the luck of the SEALs, WotC decided that Infrainvisibility is no longer a spell.
johnkretzer 11-14-07, 12:18 AM	-Greater Invisibility is useless when the SEALs in question are using infrared technology. Since the Drow would be attacking under the cover of darkness, or in the Underdark, this would nullify their advantage of invisibility and surprise. Invisibility is not Infrainvisibility. Much to the luck of the SEALs, WotC decided that Infrainvisibility is no longer a spell. Um Greter invisiblity cover infrared tech...also. Well it could be argued it does. So we would need a ruling from a judge on this issue...:) Also just think what summon spells would do to those poor S.E.A.L.s You know this debate reminds of one that was on the show Angel in the final season...who would win Cavemen or astronauts....
Lord Karsus 11-14-07, 12:40 AM	Um Greter invisiblity cover infrared tech...also. Well it could be argued it does. So we would need a ruling from a judge on this issue...:) -I'm a judge...:shifty: -No, seriously though, the Infravision rules of 2e stated that Invisibility did not cloak heat signatures. This is why the Infrainvisibility spell was created. Infrainvisibility leaves you visible to the naked eye, but you do not give off any heat- thus, you are technically invisible in the infrared spectrum. Also just think what summon spells would do to those poor S.E.A.L.s -Do SEALs have tanks, or equivalent vehicles? You know this debate reminds of one that was on the show Angel in the final season...who would win Cavemen or astronauts.... -Captain Caveman was pretty awesome.
johnkretzer 11-14-07, 01:11 AM	-I'm a judge...:shifty:. You seem preety partial to be the Judge.... --No, seriously though, the Infravision rules of 2e stated that Invisibility did not cloak heat signatures. This is why the Infrainvisibility spell was created. Infrainvisibility leaves you visible to the naked eye, but you do not give off any heat- thus, you are technically invisible in the infrared spectrum. I'll accept that ruling...though that spell can be converted to 3.x or even 4th(more than likely)... --Do SEALs have tanks, or equivalent vehicles? Let set the standard as a typical Drow raiding party vs a typical SEAL team...if you want support the drow gets it too. --Captain Caveman was pretty awesome. Yeah he was...mmm...I wonder if anybody ever turned that club into a D&D magic item?
Stigger 11-14-07, 01:48 AM	Standard SEAL team with only organic support... presuming land based vehicles and not boats... best they're going to have is M2 .50cal machine guns and Mk.19 AGLs... mounted on little dune buggy looking things, or possibly even a hummer if they're really lucky. Might even have a couple of Predator or Javelin ATGMs. Really, this is stuff they'd only use in times of very serious conflict and even then only when expecting heavy opposition. SEALs are light infantry when it comes down to it, and aren't really expected to fight armored forces in anything even remotely resembling sustained combat. Anything bigger than a armored platoon and they're pretty much screwed all by themselves, or hope they have clean skies and an orbiting AC-130.
Bullet06320 11-14-07, 04:50 AM	Seals aren't meant for long drawn out combat, Recon, quick hits, ambushes, messing around underwater in enemy ports and such like. in a sustained fight they would most likely lose without proper backup. they could still win in longer matches, they are trained to be resourcefull and regardless would do some serious damage Rangers are trained better for long drawn out combat, but thier primary role is similar to seals except for the underwater part, unless your talking about swamps Army Speacial forces are trained for longterm infiltration, training and advising indigeneous personel months ahead of an invasion. that was thier primary role in Vietnam. the same as in Haiti a few years back, as well as today in Iraq and Afghanastan Delta Force, taken mostly from SF ranks but missions similar to seals
Stigger 11-14-07, 04:57 AM	Thought Rangers were supposed to seize airfields under fire and open doors with LAW rockets... ;)
Bullet06320 11-14-07, 05:05 AM	Siezing airfields usually belongs to the Airforce, Combat Forwrard Aircontrollers specifically of course LAW rockets are fun
Stigger 11-14-07, 06:33 AM	News to me... always read that doing that was pretty much the Rangers job, with the CFACs just coming along to handle the traffic once the field was seized and the reinforcements were being flown in.
Derren S. 11-14-07, 07:15 AM	-If this was the case, I'd give advantage to the SEALs. Why? Their unenchanted 2d10 guns and bad or even nonexistant armor are no match against the enchanted stuff drow of that level would have.
Suin Bahhar 11-14-07, 07:55 AM	What about charm and domination spells. All those highly trained buddies have nearly no resistance to mental attacks and could start pulling pins of the 'nades on their neighbours packpacks. A single prepared caster could scatter a whole unit of SEALS. Lets see, for defence he has missile reflection, mirror image, stoneskin, some summons, quickened dimension doors, greater invisibility. At first contact let loose the offense with thunderclap, fear, fireballs, (mass) blindness, (mass) charm person, dominate, lightning and finish them off with quickened magic missiles. But the idea is to compare a drow patrol (with swordsmen, scouts and crossbowmen) against a unit of SEALs. I think it would be fair to include a caster to the drow if the SEALs get armor and airsupport.
Lord Karsus 11-14-07, 11:57 AM	You seem preety partial to be the Judge.... -I'm Karsus! I can be whatever I feel like! Got a problem with that? :D I'll accept that ruling...though that spell can be converted to 3.x or even 4th(more than likely)... -I've converted it myself to 3e. The problem is, though, it's not official. So... Yeah he was...mmm...I wonder if anybody ever turned that club into a D&D magic item? -You know, with the odd things that people do, I wouldn't be surprised... Why? Their unenchanted 2d10 guns and bad or even nonexistant armor are no match against the enchanted stuff drow of that level would have. -Depends on what their BAB is. Since these are highly trained soldiers here, they are not going to have puny BABs. I'm not going to give a concrete number, but I'd say the average SEAL would have a moderate BAB. -With a 2d10 weapon, one can theoretically do a maximum of 20 points with 1 bullet, with the average amount of damage at 10. Considering that machine guns fire how many bullets in six seconds, and at a moderate range, I translate that to a lot of damage. What about charm and domination spells. All those highly trained buddies have nearly no resistance to mental attacks and could start pulling pins of the 'nades on their neighbours packpacks. -They are trained to not mentally shut down in extremely stressful situations. I think that would translate into a higher WILL save than most. Would that help them resist magical mind-influencing attacks? Yes.
Stigger 11-14-07, 06:06 PM	Have to agree with Karsus... they'd have pretty damned high Will saves I'd say, particularly if they went through SERE training, which I think they're required to pass. I'm not sure about the whole MG thing... it doesn't have to penetrate to knock you on your arse and hurt like hell, leaving you pretty helpless from the impact force alone, at least for a few seconds.
Bullet06320 11-15-07, 12:54 AM	News to me... always read that doing that was pretty much the Rangers job, with the CFACs just coming along to handle the traffic once the field was seized and the reinforcements were being flown in. CFACs handle that job most of the time, Rangers are equipted for that too, but Airports and landing strips generally fall into Airforce territory. Any small tactical team could do it with proper tactics and support
Stigger 11-15-07, 02:32 AM	True enough I suppose... SEALs in Panama are proof enough of that really.
Bullet06320 11-15-07, 02:37 AM	Then again, one Seal had his M-16 jam on him and decided to use his M-203 grenade launcher to shoot someone at close range. A highlit for how Seals kill I suppose
Stigger 11-15-07, 02:42 AM	Heh, how very Arnie of him... the targets facial expression must have been priceless.
Bullet06320 11-15-07, 02:57 AM	the grenade didn't explode, it didn't go far enough to arm it self, If I recall correctly its 40 feet to arm the round. it still hurt like hell and killed him. The Seal was charged with War Crimes but was aquitted
Stigger 11-15-07, 03:05 AM	War Crimes for shooting someone? That's rich...
Bullet06320 11-15-07, 03:14 AM	Excessive force or something like that
Reneshat 11-15-07, 06:07 AM	-With a 2d10 weapon, one can theoretically do a maximum of 20 points with 1 bullet, with the average amount of damage at 10. Considering that machine guns fire how many bullets in six seconds, and at a moderate range, I translate that to a lot of damage. The average is 11 damage per hit (on 2d10), but now I'm just being picky.
GreenKnight 11-15-07, 02:03 PM	War Crimes for shooting someone? That's rich... No kidding. It's not as if he did it out of a sense of sadism. His regular weapon jammed on him and he had no choice. Apparently it's a War Crime, nowadays, to survive in a situation where you'd otherwise be boned.
Lord Karsus 11-15-07, 02:14 PM	War Crimes for shooting someone? That's rich... -Welcome to today's day and age...:rolleyes:
Stigger 11-15-07, 03:37 PM	Was like that yesterday too, I just tried to ignore it...
CreationOmega 11-15-07, 05:59 PM	In a solo fight, yes a Drow would probally be the outcome of the victor. But seeing this topic is named: S.E.A.Ls vs Drow- Seals are meant for team combat to virtually take down any enemy, let it be 1 warlord or a group of milita. Drow will do anything that goes to thier personal advantage. That means, if letting thier Drow companion get shot will give them a few more seconds of running time...then they will do so. Even Jarlaxell shows his true colors with Artemis even though he is a differnet kind of Drow (Giving Artemis a shrug and hiding in his black hole in the dragolich wall while Artemis was seen as doomed). Now with the "leave no man behind policy", you better belive that if another seal is in a critical situation, that you will get double the fire power helping him out. There is no convincing of a Seal to join the Drow like they did to the Archmage from the citidel of Assasins in Road of the Patricarch...the Seal will fight to the death or complete the mission. Oh and for the record...women are superior in the Drow society There are no females in US Spec-Ops military. (Rangers/Seals/Delta.Ect.) if you really wanted to rank the best of fictonal technolohy single persons vs the best of fictional magical single persons, we would be comparing Master chief (Halo series including the novels) vs Eleminster (Ed Greenwoods well known over powered forgotten Realms character). And I wouldn't be basing Spartan 117 from the Microsoft video games, the novels give a detailed conclusion of his potential in battle written from Eric Nylund. But please do not take this last paragraph I wrote in here to heart, it was just a thought that I was sharing of how far this topic might go if it continues.
Stigger 11-15-07, 07:11 PM	You seem to have an odd perception of Special Forces types... which seems more spawned from movies and games rather than from actual reality. Sure, they are tough, certainly they are extremely skilled, but they're not exactly killing machines, and there's tons of stuff they are going to be severely overmatched by... Armored forces for instance... or pretty much anything over company strength. Their main strength lies in stealth and infiltration, not assault, and on the application of precise amounts of firepower with the minimum effort achieving the maximum effect. But frontline combat troops they are not, and hence do not have nearly the same amount of firepower and sheer destructive potential as a comparable infantry unit. Mostly because they're not supposed to... As to women not being in US Special Forces... that's mostly because they are legally barred from joining those units rather than some natural limitation on their part. From what I know however, the USMCs attempts to train them for combat turned out to be very promising before they were ordered to cease and desist the training program.
Lord Karsus 11-15-07, 07:20 PM	But, if you really wanted to rank the best of fictonal technolohy single persons vs the best of fictional magical single persons, we would be comparing Master chief (Halo series including the novels)... -Nope. That would be Samus Aran (who, coincidentally, is a woman. Go figure). Samus > Master Chief.
CreationOmega 11-15-07, 07:47 PM	-Nope. That would be Samus Aran (who, coincidentally, is a woman. Go figure). Samus > Master Chief. If you had read the novels, you would not be saying this. (Reach/First Strike/Ghost of onxy...do not read the flood and the newest Contact Harvest by Joseph Staten has nothing to do with the Spartans). Samus is a bounty Hunter, fighting monsters such as metroids and other silly child like squid monsters. Where as you have Sparatans trying thier luck vs a Convanat battle crusier that can turn a planet into glass without the use of much energy to this slipstream ships advantage. Samus doesn't have the experince of fighting humanoid creatures: I.E. the elites/brutes/grunts/jackals/hunters that can wield human like weapons. Where as Master chief has fought similar beings such as the Metroid series style of enemies: I.E. The flood. Therefore if Samus were to do battle with a Spartan, she wo would have the dissadvantage of needing to adapt to this style of battle. 1 American taking on the entire German army from WW2...thats the equivalent of Master Chief vs The Convanent. I can't really say the same for Samus in MP3: Curruption where her hardest enemy is....herself!.....lol...what a joke. But for those of you who would still think differently such as Lord, perhaps this will satify your taste: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/57998.html?id=57998 And by the way Stigger, did you also know that in WW2 there were 2 Russian female snipers that killed over 300 men? Pretty impressive for just two people.
Stigger 11-15-07, 07:51 PM	I was aware of that actually. Quite a few Russian women in combat actually... then again, considering that Stalin pretty much fed men into a meatgrinder with little regard to their survival, that really shouldn't be too surprising. Though thinking about it, I don't recall the kills being quite that high... could be wrong about it though.
CreationOmega 11-15-07, 07:56 PM	I was aware of that actually. Quite a few Russian women in combat actually... then again, considering that Stalin pretty much fed men into a meatgrinder with little regard to their survival, that really shouldn't be too surprising. Though thinking about it, I don't recall the kills being quite that high... could be wrong about it though. Yes. quote me on it. As I said, very impressive huh?
Stigger 11-15-07, 08:02 PM	Presuming you're correct, I'll admit I'm a bit rusty on my Eastern Front knowledge, yes, its fairly impressive indeed.
Lord Karsus 11-15-07, 08:15 PM	-Samus > Master Chief. Old-school always always trumps the new crap. It's that simple.
CreationOmega 11-15-07, 08:21 PM	-Samus > Master Chief. Old-school always always trumps the new crap. It's that simple. Rofl, I just threw a logical statement at you with facts of both view points of each characters. And you say Old is better than New just because it is. I am dissapointed in you, usually you break down all my post bit by bit, replying to every sentence. This however is not the case...but rather an emmbarsement to yourself sir. I claim temporary victory on this debate by default until Lord can attempt to say otherwise with a reasonable factual post.
Lord Karsus 11-15-07, 08:35 PM	Rofl, I just threw a logical statement at you with facts of both view points of each characters. -As soon as you said, "fighting monsters such as metroids and other silly child like squid monsters", I automatically discounted anything else you had to say. ;)
CreationOmega 11-15-07, 08:39 PM	-As soon as you said, "fighting monsters such as metroids and other silly child like squid monsters", I automatically discounted anything else you had to say. ;) That's too bad, I'm sure you would have enjoyed some of the statements I implimented. By the way, did you watch the link I had posted of a Spartan vs Samus, including her zero hour suit? ^^ This is for you Lord: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/57998.html?id=57998 Please watch it, it goes more so to your cause if anything.
Lord Karsus 11-15-07, 11:56 PM	This is for you Lord: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/57998.html?id=57998 Please watch it, it goes more so to your cause if anything. -Heh, that's funny. I guess we're not the only ones to compare Metroid and Halo. -BTW, I tried to PM you, with a baseball question. It said your settings were such that you didn't accept PMs.
Suin Bahhar 11-16-07, 04:52 PM	Nice John Woo like fight. I love me some over the top action scenes.
Bullet06320 11-17-07, 06:26 AM	And by the way Stigger, did you also know that in WW2 there were 2 Russian female snipers that killed over 300 men? Pretty impressive for just two people. I recall at least one female russian sniper with over 300 kills, could have been more though, don't recall the name
Bullet06320 11-17-07, 06:30 AM	Sure, they are tough, certainly they are extremely skilled, but they're not exactly killing machines, and there's tons of stuff they are going to be severely overmatched by... Armored forces for instance... or pretty much anything over company strength. Their main strength lies in stealth and infiltration, not assault, and on the application of precise amounts of firepower with the minimum effort achieving the maximum effect. But frontline combat troops they are not, and hence do not have nearly the same amount of firepower and sheer destructive potential as a comparable infantry unit. Mostly because they're not supposed to... But with stealth an infiltration you can plant lots of explosives or slit alot of throats without getting caught and not only kill your enemy but also demoralise him as well. Pschological Operations are also a big part of speacial warfare that Seals and other such units perform as well as intelligence gathering.
Straploknight 11-17-07, 11:45 AM	Y'know I often wondered about things like that when it comes to the drow, their society is so violent as well as their typical methods I'd think the sort of "psychological warfare" a soldier would use on them would be hardly effective (outright torture would be more effective). I can remember back in the 2e days when Dark Sun characters were shifted to Ravenloft, they got a fear/horror check bonus due to the brutal environment of Athas and it struck me as odd that the drow didn't recieve a similar bonus (something I used to argue with my DM about, who resolutely refused to grant a drow elf the fear/horror bonus - ergo the drow commited sucide and a Mul took his place :D)
Stigger 11-17-07, 12:12 PM	But with stealth an infiltration you can plant lots of explosives or slit alot of throats without getting caught and not only kill your enemy but also demoralise him as well. Pschological Operations are also a big part of speacial warfare that Seals and other such units perform as well as intelligence gathering. True, but in a straight up fight, as Creation seemed to advocate there, the same SEALs would pretty much be expensive and well equipped corpses...
Bullet06320 11-18-07, 07:14 PM	as far as Psycoligical Ops ge, you would have to tailor it to the enemy your facing, what works on one enemey wont neccesssarilly work on another. Lets settle this argument for once, Roll up a SEAL Team and Roll up a Drow Patrol and let the dice see who wins Rule 1: the battle happens in FR Rule 2: electronincs don't work, but firearms still work as long as you got Ammo Rule 3: Cross genre material don't matter, use D20 modern for Seals or whatever you feel will work best Rule 4: Thats it, let me know the results
johnkretzer 11-18-07, 08:23 PM	Rule 2: electronincs don't work, but firearms still work as long as you got Ammo Firearms( gunpowder ones that is) don't work in the Realms. The physics of the world does not allow it to.
95 11-18-07, 10:27 PM	what kind of AC do you think Body Armor would give the Seals?
Bullet06320 11-18-07, 11:44 PM	Firearms( gunpowder ones that is) don't work in the Realms. The physics of the world does not allow it to. Nothing in print specifically disallows firearms from another world to work in the Realms
Bullet06320 11-18-07, 11:47 PM	what kind of AC do you think Body Armor would give the Seals? D20 modern states Tactical Vest +6 ac, max dex +2
johnkretzer 11-19-07, 12:03 AM	Nothing in print specifically disallows firearms from another world to work in the Realms Sure it does...I think it was stated way back in 1st. That isa why the primitive FR firearms use smokepowder.
Warning 11-19-07, 11:04 AM	Rule 1: the battle happens in FR Why's that? Creation had already stated that you are diliberalely giving the Drow an advantage. It's almost as bad as saying: Put a warrior in a pitch black cell with none of his weapons at hand facing a fully equipt vampire that's bloodthirsty. Yes, if US Navy Seals were to battle in the Forgotten Realms homeworld, the drow would win not because they are better in any sence, soloy due to the fact of being disarmed because of the Realms Laws of it's universe. The same would go for the Drow were they in our world where magic can not and does not exsist. I am curious as a few others have already mentioned to as of who would be the victor in such a situation of a universe that permitted both of thier laws restrictions. Magic and Technology being both in play: it would be a battle I'm sure none would dare to miss.
Stigger 11-19-07, 11:16 AM	Battle happens in FR because that was the original premise of the thread perhaps? ;)
Warning 11-19-07, 11:20 AM	Battle happens in FR because that was the original premise of the thread perhaps? ;) Starploknight had also stated in the 1st post of this topic Special: Simple Weapons prof, weapons specialization, improved critical, improved reaction, greater weapon specialization, critical strike. Does this imply that the Seals have thier weapons? I am unsure, perhaps somone could clarify this for me. And as I said before, if you see it this way, what's the point of this debate...the Drow would win then. Strip them of thier advatages and let the enemy keep thiers, and the winner should be made clear. Starploknight also failed to mention that ExtinctionBeta had never talked about any of the groups going to one anothers world, and soloy battle tatics only. This is where the topic orginated from according to Starploknight. It's sad that everyone keeps it in mind that the Seals are unable to use weapons. Is everyone implying that the Drow would lose hands down if this were not the case? Seems to me you and a few others are relying on this FR universe no tech advantage.
Stigger 11-19-07, 11:29 AM	...obviously they wouldn't have any hi-tech gadgets to rely on, nor fire arms, they would be left with hand to hand combat skills and melee weapons. Would seem to be the starting conditions. I'd say the guns don't work due to the probable difference in physics, others say they would work just fine, so that's semi-sorta up for debate in some respects.
Warning 11-19-07, 11:31 AM	And as I said before, if you see it this way, what's the point of this debate...the Drow would win then. Strip them of thier advatages and let the enemy keep thiers, and the winner should be made clear. Seems to me you and a few others are relying on this FR universe no tech advantage. Ok fine, the Drow would win if the Seals could not use thier weapons and other items. Is this what you want to hear? I'm sure if put a shark on solid ground and stood 20 feet with a gun, I would win.
Derren S. 11-19-07, 11:40 AM	Scenario 1: High Tech equipment doesn't work, magic does work -> Drow would win. Scenario 2: Both High-Tech equipment and Magic would work -> Depends on the level. Low level -> S.E.A.L would win Mid-High level-> Drow would win Scenario 3: High Tech Equipment works, magic doesn't work -> Depends on level Low level -> S.E.A.L would win Mid-High level -> undecided Scenario 4: Both High-Tech equipment and Magic doesn't work -> undecided. Overall winner -> Drow When using the D&D level system mundane equipment simply doesn't matter much at high level anymore. Thats why the S.E.A.Ls guns are not a big advantage, especially when the Drow have their enchanted weapons.
Warning 11-19-07, 11:49 AM	Scenario 2: Both High-Tech equipment and Magic would work -> Depends on the level. Scenario 3: High Tech Equipment works, magic doesn't work -> Depends on level Low level -> S.E.A.L would win Mid-High level -> undecided Scenario 4: Both High-Tech equipment and Magic doesn't work -> undecided Funny. In every aspect where the Seals would win, you say "undecided" "Depends on level". A bit biased are we?
Stigger 11-19-07, 11:50 AM	Problem with the SEALs using weapons is that, presuming they are fighting at night, the flash from the weapons are going to be a rather large advantage if you think about it. If you've ever seen a gun being fired at night without a flash suppressor, its blinding, and with the drows light sensitivity, each time the SEALs fired, the drow are probably blind for a round or two. Even suppressed weapons produce a fairly significant amount of flash at close ranges, enough to hamper (although not negate) nightvision for a second or two at least, even with modern nightvision devices, at least as far as I'm aware. Not exactly fair there either...
Warning 11-19-07, 11:54 AM	Problem with the SEALs using weapons is that, presuming they are fighting at night, the flash from the weapons are going to be a rather large advantage if you think about it. If you've ever seen a gun being fired at night without a flash suppressor, its blinding, and with the drows light sensitivity, each time the SEALs fired, the drow are probably blind for a round or two. Even suppressed weapons produce a fairly significant amount of flash at close ranges, enough to hamper (although not negate) nightvision for a second or two at least, even with modern nightvision devices, at least as far as I'm aware. Not exactly fair there either... Silencers? But ok, let's go with what you're saying. A shot is seen....that's 1 drow down...the other Drow sees the firing seal....but not the others...only 1 Seal has fired so far. The Drow goes to attack the seal...even from behind let's say. You forget the Seals work as a team....SNIPER...that drow down. The other team of Seals have yet to enter in battle still....who has the advatage.
Derren S. 11-19-07, 12:04 PM	[B][I] Funny. In ever aspect where the Seals would win, you say "undecided". A bit biased are we? No, simply interpreting this encounter on basis of the rules. The weapon of the S.E.A.Ls are not that strong in D&D stats. Even if you use the D20 modern stats and not the D&D stats they are only 2D10. At level 14 this is a bit higher than normal when no magical weapons are availiable but still rather low. And in close combat the drow have the advantage even without magic as the soldiers will be rather poorly equipped and trained to handle close combat. And unless you give the soldiers a huge terrain advantage there will be close combat (it takes awfully long to kill lvl 14 fighters with 2d10 damage). So the battle could go either way. The same is true if neither magic or guns worked. If I have to decide who hasthe advantage here I would say drow as unlike S.E.A.Ls they have specialized close combat weapons and training but I leaveit as undecided as it would probably be rather close. A shot is seen....that's 1 drow down... No. A shot is seen, thats one drow loosing at average 9-10% of his total HP if the attacker hits.
Warning 11-19-07, 12:09 PM	The same is true if neither magic or guns worked. If I have to decide who hasthe advantage here I would say drow as unlike S.E.A.Ls they have specialized close combat weapons and training but I leaveit as undecided as it would probably be rather close. Who says the Drow would get close to them? You think with a gun pointing thier way, the seals are going to wait for the Drow to get in range of a sword? Even so, you forget the use of a pistol of close range combat (Let's see a Drow stand after taking a shot anywhere on the body from a Desert Eagle .50 Cal). Gernades/RPG/Sniper/Mines/TripWires. Sorry friend, but you know nothing of military tatics nor the weapons or skills they posses. Seals are very well trained in unarmored combat. I am not saying they would win in a fist fight, but if it came down to that, I am quite sure that the weapons the Seals used did not go to waste and the Drow are already hurting. Don't take it to heart but, I do not expect a German to know of USA military forces, Derren S. Condoning the fact that after WW2 Germany and Japan are not allowed to have anything more than a self defence-military.
Stigger 11-19-07, 12:16 PM	A silencer still produces flash, it just mitigates it. From what I know, it's still enough to degrade nightvision for a second or two during automatic or burst fire. Single shots aren't as bad, but its there nonetheless. And no, I don't forget SF types work as a team, but part of that teamwork is setting up things like interlocking fields of fire, enfilades, and suppressive cover fire. We have no idea who has tactical advantage, terrain advantage, surprise, cover, or much of anything else. Finding those drow, firing hand crossbows that don't produce muzzle flash, during a firefight, is going to be fairly difficult. Once the SEALs open fire, the drow are blinded, but by the same token, once they adjust to it, the sound from even a "silenced" weapon is going to work to the drows advantage, given their stealth. Consider the armor issue as well. During ranged fire, the SEALs armor is going to be all but impenatrable to those hand crossbows, but not that much good against melee weapons, since as far as I'm aware, most modern types are armor are designed to stop penetration, but don't do nearly as well against cutting edges. Sure they still provide some protection, but its not nearly as effective against a bladed weapon as it is against something that pierces. Nightfighting, while a traditional strength of those SEALs, isn't going to work nearly as well without their nightvision equipment either, as it won't work on Faerun. Advantage is going to the drow there once the initial shock of the weapons flash wears off... of course by then it could very well be too late depending on who sees who first. All in all, I'd say it depended on too many variables to say one way or another, and largely could go either way depending on who achieved surprise.
Derren S. 11-19-07, 12:20 PM	My my, isn't someone a bit too patriotic in here? I have read nowhere that the drow are supposed to attack an entrenched position of the S.E.A.Ls, so there are no mines, claymores etc. And you see how the combat is undecided. The more cover there is the better for the drow as the could approach and only get shot by readied actions, not full actions. And a Desert Eagle probably does only 1d8 damage so nothing a level 14 drow would not survive. And in close combat the S.E.A.Ls are at a disadvantage. Being trained in unarmed combat or maybe combat with a knife doesn't mean much when the enemy is an expert with swords. In game terms the S.E.A.Ls would have mostly feats to enhance their ranged weapons while most drow have close combat feats. And you better read a bit more about the Bundeswehr and the KSK.
Stigger 11-19-07, 12:22 PM	Why would a SEAL be using a .50 Desert Eagle and not a .45 H&K Mk.45 SOCOM, or possibly even a 9mm Beretta M9? As to RPGs... not exactly a US weapon, now is it? The rest, well it depends on if they've had a chance to actually deploy mines and the like. Grenades could be a problem, particularly the flash effects, but again, depends on the conditions of the fight.
Derren S. 11-19-07, 12:25 PM	depends on the conditions of the fight. Exactly, thats why I said undecided except in those areas where one side has a huge advantage.
Warning 11-19-07, 12:27 PM	You say that once they get to use thier sword on the Seals...? (Sigh) The purpose of a gun is too inflict greater damage then one could noramlly do or the range of ones ability. I would sacrifice my postion of being seen for a gun over a cross-bolt. The drow have poison tip arrows? We have armor peircing rounds and explosive rounds. And what Drow weapon can match that of a sniper? You also forgetting that in real life we use to have swords. Yet we use guns now why? Because they are better and more efficent? If I had a gun pointing at you from 20 ft away and you had a knife....do you think your chance of survival would be great? Hell, it could be my 1st time shooting and you are the grand champion hand to hand combat person. I would still win.
Warning 11-19-07, 12:31 PM	Why would a SEAL be using a .50 Desert Eagle and not a .45 H&K Mk.45 SOCOM, or possibly even a 9mm Beretta M9? As to RPGs... not exactly a US weapon, now is it? The rest, well it depends on if they've had a chance to actually deploy mines and the like. Grenades could be a problem, particularly the flash effects, but again, depends on the conditions of the fight. Would you rather it the MP5 then? M4 Rifle? The reason I say RPG is because I'm sure you would disagree and complain with the fact that we use air strikes for our ground forces instead of ground anti-vehicle personal. Do you want me to start imputting tools such as those into play? And yes a colt .45 would still do pleanty of damage, Derren S says a Drow wouldn't die...sure I'll give him that, but he also wouldn't have a Arm/Leg/Hand...
Derren S. 11-19-07, 12:33 PM	Warning, please read the D&D and D20 modern rules. If somehow the drow would exist in real life and this would be a discussion about real life the drow would stand no chance. But it isn't. We (or at least I) are talking about lvl 14 D&D drow against lvl 14 D20 Modern S.E.A.Ls (look at the stats at the first page). And in this scenario assault rifles are simply no instant kill weapons as depending on the setting they only do 1d8(?) or 2d10 damage against combatants who have more than 100 hp. With sustained fire the S.E.A.Ls could down a drow in one, maybe two rounds but when the drow have cover they can close the distance rather fast and start disarming/killing the S.E.A.Ls in close combat.
Warning 11-19-07, 12:37 PM	Warning, please read the D&D and D20 modern rules. If somehow the drow would exist in real life and this would be a discussion about real life the drow would stand no chance. But it isn't. We (or at least I) are talking about lvl 14 D&D drow against lvl 14 D20 Modern S.E.A.Ls (look at the stats at the first page). And in this scenario assault rifles are simply no instant kill weapons as depending on the setting they only do 1d8(?) or 2d10 damage against combatants who have more than 100 hp. With sustained fire the S.E.A.Ls could down a drow in one, maybe two rounds but when the drow have cover they can close the distance rather fast and start disarming/killing the S.E.A.Ls in close combat. Have you read the new edition for the Homeland Drizzt novels re-printed? RAS stated he does not like DnD rules compared to a realistic setting on a novel when involving combat, because as you have already said your self, in a realistic setting without the chance of luck(dice), and the use of pure skill and training and weapons,the Seals would dessimate the Drow, even if magic was in play.
Derren S. 11-19-07, 12:44 PM	I have no idea how you can judge how effective "realistic magic" would be and what it could do and what not, but this is still a D&D/D20 modern game discussions as indicated by the OPs request and initial stats he provided. And so I judge this encounter by D&D/D20 rules and not by semirealistic (drow&magic simply don't exist) or arbitrary novel rules (the hero always wins no matter the opposition).
Warning 11-19-07, 12:48 PM	I have no idea how you can judge how effective "realistic magic" would be and what it could do and what not, but this is still a D&D/D20 modern game discussions as indicated by the OPs request and initial stats he provided. And so I judge this encounter by D&D/D20 rules and not by semirealistic (drow&magic simply don't exist) or arbitrary novel rules (the hero always wins no matter the opposition). Agreed. Thus making this debate an ongoing pointless value. You push and I pull.
Stigger 11-19-07, 12:49 PM	Sure, we have AP rounds (explosive tips are generally reserved for 20mm or better calibres as far as I'm aware), but who says the SEALs have them? If we're talking about a SEAL team equipped with MP5sd's, then they'll in all likelihood be using sub-sonic ammunition to take advantage of the stealth of the weapon, since using anything else still produces a sonic boom as the bullet travels through the air. Besides, against most sorts of FR armor, most of the bullets they use will likely prove to be Armor Piercing against all but the thickest of heavy armors. Even full plate would probably get punched through in a hurry since it was never designed to deal with penetrating power that a bullet produces, unless it was forged from adamantine or some other very strong metal. As to why we use guns... mostly because it was cheaper and less cost intensive than training someoene to a comparable degree with melee weapons. They make a great force multiplier in mass formations, but we still train with bayonets because they're kinda useless in close combat. Magic seems like a pretty good solution to the sniper problem though, and in the long run trumps it so long as the wizard remains alive. It was mostly an economic reasoning, since its cheaper and easier to mass produce a hundred rifles than it is to produce a hundred swords. However, consider something with that sniper. Is that sniper in cover, prone, and providing overwatch for the team when combat commences? Or is he moving with the rest of the team as it explores its surroundings? How is he going to actually accomplish his sniping when his scope isn't quite as functional as it should be, as his scope isn't going to be working nearly as well without the batteries that allow the illuminated crosshairs to function? How is he going to see the drow nearly as well without his nightvision? It seems fairly obvious from that last comment of yours that you've likely never fired a weapon. Its not nearly as easy as you seem to think it is, and the recoil makes fast recovery with most weapons difficult for a novice shooter. Aiming them isn't all that easy either, particularly for novice, as its not just pushing a button, but pulling a trigger that likely has at least a 2-3 pound trigger pull that will mess up your aim until you get used to it...
Stigger 11-19-07, 12:52 PM	Would you rather it the MP5 then? M4 Rifle? The reason I say RPG is because I'm sure you would disagree and complain with the fact that we use air strikes for our ground forces instead of ground anti-vehicle personal. Do you want me to start imputting tools such as those into play? And yes a colt .45 would still do pleanty of damage, Derren S says a Drow wouldn't die...sure I'll give him that, but he also wouldn't have a Arm/Leg/Hand... The US doesn't use RPG's... it would be a 40mm tube-launched grenade or something like a Predator or Javelin ATGM. RPGs refer to a Soviet/Russian weapon most of the time. Though the Predator and Javelin wouldn't work on Faerun since both rely on an electronics package to function.
Warning 11-19-07, 12:57 PM	It seems fairly obvious from that last comment of yours that you've likely never fired a weapon. Its not nearly as easy as you seem to think it is, and the recoil makes fast recovery with most weapons difficult for a novice shooter. Aiming them isn't all that easy either, particularly for novice, as its not just pushing a button, but pulling a trigger that likely has at least a 2-3 pound trigger pull that will mess up your aim until you get used to it... But are we talking about novices or Navy Seals? I would think they would be trained well enough to handle the recoil in proper stance.
Stigger 11-19-07, 01:13 PM	That wasn't talking about Navy SEALs, that was in reference to: If I had a gun pointing at you from 20 ft away and you had a knife....do you think your chance of survival would be great? Hell, it could be my 1st time shooting and you are the grand champion hand to hand combat person. I would still win. My point being, you wouldn't still win. Guns are fast, effective, and powerful, but they are not the end-all, be all of weaponry, and certainly don't equate to an instant win... as several European nations found out during the Age of Imperialism.
Lord Karsus 11-19-07, 05:29 PM	The weapon of the S.E.A.Ls are not that strong in D&D stats. Even if you use the D20 modern stats and not the D&D stats they are only 2D10. -You fail to factor in, however, that the basic M16 files three-round bursts, which results in (2d10) + (2d10) + (2d10). Or, on "automatic", the M16 can fire 750 to 900 rounds per second. If a six seconds are a round, that's 750 to 900 rounds in ten rounds. Divinding that total number by ten, that's 75 to 90 rounds per round. That's (2d10) + (2d10) + (2d10)... Guns are fast, effective, and powerful, but they are not the end-all, be all of weaponry, and certainly don't equate to an instant win... as several European nations found out during the Age of Imperialism. -Well, two things. Firstly, the guns used during the Age of Imperialism weren't necessarily fast, effective or powerful. Secondly, I going to have to go out on a limb, and say that the Europeans edged out on top during the Age of Imperialism. ;)
Stigger 11-19-07, 07:46 PM	The standard M16a2 doesn't fire full auto... nor does even the full auto M16a1 come even vaguely close to 900 rounds per second. Most literature I've seen says that it can fire at 90 rounds per minute on burst mode, or 3 bursts per round, and only 45 rounds per minute on single fire. The M4 however is fully automatic... and even that tops out at 700-1000 rounds per minute as far as I know. Actually, as far as I know, a lot of those weapons were slightly more powerful than modern weaponry, with higher muzzle velocities in comparison to the bullet weight. Effective, well, considering they tended to kill what they hit, I'd say they were. Fast, well, by modern standards, no, not at all, but compared to what had come before them, they were very fast weapons indeed. As to the outcome, yes, of course European nations came out on top there, otherwise it wouldn't be known as the Age of Imperialism. My point was that the guns, while effective, weren't necessarily the 'ultimate' weapon that people think they are. I suppose what I'm getting at there is that it isn't the weapon being weilded, its the person weilding it that ultimately tends to decide these things if everything else is equal. Certainly I'd like to think that the SEALs would come out on top every time, but I don't honestly think that's going to be true in every situation, even if it were taking place in our world.
Lord Karsus 11-19-07, 08:02 PM	The standard M16a2 doesn't fire full auto... nor does even the full auto M16a1 come even vaguely close to 900 rounds per second. Most literature I've seen says that it can fire at 90 rounds per minute on burst mode, or 3 bursts per round, and only 45 rounds per minute on single fire. The M4 however is fully automatic... and even that tops out at 700-1000 rounds per minute as far as I know. -I was going by what Wikipedia was telling me.
Stigger 11-19-07, 08:06 PM	Yet another reason to avoid that place...
Warning 11-19-07, 08:23 PM	The standard M16a2 doesn't fire full auto... nor does even the full auto M16a1 come even vaguely close to 900 rounds per second. Most literature I've seen says that it can fire at 90 rounds per minute on burst mode, or 3 bursts per round, and only 45 rounds per minute on single fire. The M4 however is fully automatic... and even that tops out at 700-1000 rounds per minute as far as I know. Still better than a cross-bolt. Please also remember that anything the Drow have in terms of weapons, the Seals have better. Globe of darkness< Flash gernade. Cross-bolt<A gun...vertually any gun. Better vision in night than a normal human<Night vision. Fire ball<Gernade. Lolth<Nuke. I could really go on but, there so much to list here. Yes the Drow in terms of nautral body skill is better, but look at this way: Animals in the real world have better skills in terms of nautral body, but who dominates the world? Because of technology advancment there is no need for skill to an extent. All we have to do now adays is, push a button...mass destruction. The Drow need centruies of training to aquire the skill they obtain.
Stigger 11-19-07, 08:48 PM	Actually, that globe of darkness would negate the flashbang's visual effects, and lasts longer to boot. Crossbows... yeah, particularly a hand-crossbow, guns definitely outclass them in most respects. Nightvision doesn't exactly work on Faerun, and can run out of batteries. Nor does it work underground unless there's an external lightsource, since it usually works off of amplifying ambient light. So, I'd give that one to the drow's natural vision really. No way a fireball trumps a grenade though... fireball has a larger effective kill radius, far superior range, and if we're speaking realism here, secondary incendiary effects that could possibly cook-off ammunition in their magazines. As to the Lolth < Nuke thing... somehow I doubt most SEALs run around with tactical nuclear devices as a field weapon... ;) As to the lack of need for skill... why bother with a SEAL then, when supposedly technology can do it all? Oh, wait, it can't... or a fireman for that matter? Architects? Plumbers? Electricians? Nope, sorry, the arguement fails, since that technology has to be designed and built by skilled people. And there is still a lot of things that only humans can do. And using that technology effectively requires skill as well... Even with the mass destruction aspects, but for very limited tactical situations, that mass destruction ability is nearly useless by and large, at least for much beyond a psychological effect.
Warning 11-19-07, 08:56 PM	Actually, that globe of darkness would negate the flashbang's visual effects, and lasts longer to boot. Crossbows... yeah, particularly a hand-crossbow, guns definitely outclass them in most respects. Nightvision doesn't exactly work on Faerun, and can run out of batteries. Nor does it work underground unless there's an external lightsource, since it usually works off of amplifying ambient light. So, I'd give that one to the drow's natural vision really. No way a fireball trumps a grenade though... fireball has a larger effective kill radius, far superior range, and if we're speaking realism here, secondary incendiary effects that could possibly cook-off ammunition in their magazines. As to the Lolth < Nuke thing... somehow I doubt most SEALs run around with tactical nuclear devices as a field weapon... ;) As to the lack of need for skill... why bother with a SEAL then, when supposedly technology can do it all? Oh, wait, it can't... or a fireman for that matter? Architects? Plumbers? Electricians? Nope, sorry, the arguement fails, since that technology has to be designed and built by skilled people. And there is still a lot of things that only humans can do. And using that technology effectively requires skill as well... Even with the mass destruction aspects, but for very limited tactical situations, that mass destruction ability is nearly useless by and large, at least for much beyond a psychological effect. I was speaking about in comparison of a flash-bang...not to be used agaisnt a globe of darkness...being blinded is much worse than having your vision dimmed. And I was speaking of forces not with you to an extent...Lolth isn't running around with the Drow but she gives aid. Just like a Commanding officer sending air support....who said they would run around with it when they can raido it in? Once again you say it electronics does not work in Forgotten Realms universe...but as I told you, if they both had thier world laws both in effect, it would be quite handy. Night vision low on battiers? Better than using your energy mana of you body to tire yourself. Also, fireball takes concentration to cast, once again using your bodies energy. A gernade only takes a toss to a throw. 100 children unarmored can beat down 3 men with guns (See Hostile). 3 Gernade tosses does better than 1 fireball blast.
Stigger 11-19-07, 09:05 PM	You do realize that you can't just radio in for a tactical nuclear strike, right? Drows vision is natural, as natural as ours, it doesn't require magical energy, so that arguement doesn't really work... as to grenades only requiring a toss... you do realize you need a moment to stow your weapon, pull it off its holder, pull the pin, aim, and then throw it... how is that much faster than 6 seconds to cast a spell? As to both having their world's law in effect, that's a great thought, but immaterial to our discussion, as that's not the scenario that was being asked for. I'd go into that more, but its time for food, so I'll just leave it there for now.
Terraneaux 11-20-07, 03:41 AM	I'd just like to add that if cordite doesn't react, then a variety of physical processes that are required for biological bodies to function wouldn't work either. People also forget, drow are even less resistant to bullet fire than humans are-they receive a constitution penalty. Sure they're pretty nimble but remember that drow are short little bastards-between 4 and 5 feet tall in most cases. I really don't think someone that size wants to get close to a navy seal, even with a sword. My money's on the SWAT team, however. Riot shields, armored vehicles, flashbangs, battering rams... would be funny to see the drow run.
Derren S. 11-20-07, 03:47 AM	-You fail to factor in, however, that the basic M16 files three-round bursts, which results in (2d10) + (2d10) + (2d10). Or, on "automatic", the M16 can fire 750 to 900 rounds per second. If a six seconds are a round, that's 750 to 900 rounds in ten rounds. Divinding that total number by ten, that's 75 to 90 rounds per round. That's (2d10) + (2d10) + (2d10)... You can't mix real-life "facts"with game mechanics. One attack -> one shot. There might be a special burst mechanic for firearms in D20 modern but it certainly does not equate in 1 shot -> 2d10 damage.
Suin Bahhar 11-20-07, 07:46 AM	People also forget, drow are even less resistant to bullet fire than humans are-they receive a constitution penalty. Sure they're pretty nimble but remember that drow are short little bastards-between 4 and 5 feet tall in most cases. I really don't think someone that size wants to get close to a navy seal, even with a sword. An invisible hasted blurred drow armed with enchanted swords is small and frail but packs as large a punch as any seal could muster and hard to hit too. But I remember the given stats showed the seal has str 16 dex 15 con 14 vs the drows str 14 dex 17 con 13 so you might have a point here though.
Stigger 11-20-07, 08:36 AM	C'mon Terraneaux, if we're gonna be all technical about it, if electronics don't work, then our nervous systems could be kinda screwed too... ;) We could solve this whole mess with a simple, well, both worlds are mutually exclusive, and if someone from either places goes to the other, they die as their bodies fail them... :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 09:19 AM	A part of me can't believe this debate is still going...
Stigger 11-20-07, 09:35 AM	Never underestimate a male's fascination with things that go boom... :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 10:14 AM	Never underestimate a male's fascination with things that go boom... :D Well, maybe THAT explains it. :rofl: The topic is just so...random. *shrug* What about those S.E.A.L.s vs. drow? Why not pit the U.S. Army vs. the shades or something?
Stigger 11-20-07, 11:31 AM	My wife suggested that the best way to deal with Seals was with a bucket of fish and a little rubber ball to balance on their noses... give the drow those and its a sure win for them. ;) :D
Warning 11-20-07, 11:47 AM	I would like to point something out that's been bothering me. When ever a decent point has been made to the Seals advantage, it's: "No no, we are fighting in the FR world...so that can't happen." Or: "The Seals would have a higher damage rate....but you can't say that because we are not allowed to use real life mechanics with DnD rules". As I said before, this topic is no different than me making one saying- So how about those humans vs sharks on land!. Yes Drow will win if you take what the Seals have been trained to use away...the same goes for if Drow were in our world where Lolth doesn't exist and neither does magic. So if I made a new topic about how the Drow were fighting in our world, could I say...no globe of darkness or healing or infinite amount of throwing knives or even a fireball...because it does no exsist in our world! It defeats the purpose of these 2 sides doing battle. This topic is flawed by the creator, it should have been a netrual zone where both lawls of thier world go into effect. So just think about everytime you say "that can't happen because it's in FR!"...it only leads me to the thought that the Drow need the handicap because it's the only excuse you can run to that would keep the Drow from losing. How about from this momment on we look at it from a standpoint of what a average Drow/Seal would normally be equipt with using both Electronics/Magic. But of course you don't have to if you dont have faith in the Drow...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 12:13 PM	My wife suggested that the best way to deal with Seals was with a bucket of fish and a little rubber ball to balance on their noses... give the drow those and its a sure win for them. ;) :D That's cute! :rofl:
Derren S. 11-20-07, 12:28 PM	How about from this momment on we look at it from a standpoint of what a average Drow/Seal would normally be equipt with using both Electronics/Magic. But of course you don't have to if you dont have faith in the Drow... Lets see, the soldiers mundane rifle vs the drows leather armor +4, flaming, shocking crossbow+3, his ring of deflection +3, potions of fly&invisibility, etc... My money is on the drow.
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 12:38 PM	You do realize that you can't just radio in for a tactical nuclear strike, right? -Aw, shucks...:( ;) You can't mix real-life "facts"with game mechanics. One attack -> one shot. There might be a special burst mechanic for firearms in D20 modern but it certainly does not equate in 1 shot -> 2d10 damage. -2d10 is the amount of damage a rifle would do per bullet, as we were informed. Thus, 1 shot equates to 2d10 points of damage. Does anyone have any information on d20 Modern automatic/semiautomatic fire, as pertaining to rifles? If a Rapid Shot feat exists in D&D, something equivalent exists in d20 Modern. -And, those other numbers are what would happen in actuality. Take it or leave it, but that's what would "really" happen (as much as something can really happen, when talking about black-skinned Elves and fireballs...) Lets see, the soldiers mundane rifle vs the drows leather armor +4, flaming, shocking crossbow+3, his ring of deflection +3, potions of fly&invisibility, etc... My money is on the drow. -Well, good thing for the Neavy SEALS that the average Drow patrol doesn't randomly have access to +4 Leather Armor, +3 Flaming, Shocking Crossbows, and +3 Rings of Protection...:rolleyes:
Derren S. 11-20-07, 12:40 PM	-Well, good thing for the Neavy SEALS that the average Drow patrol doesn't randomly have access to +4 Leather Armor, +3 Flaming, Shocking Crossbows, and +3 Rings of Protection...:rolleyes: As we are talking about 14th level characters (see OP) I assume that the combatants will have level appropriate gear. Edit, sorry. Somehow I though they were 14th level, but according to their BAB they seem to be 20th level. So change the +3 things to +5 and add a vorpal weapon.
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 12:43 PM	As we are talking about 14th level characters (see OP) I assume that the combatants will have level appropriate gear. Edit, sorry. Somehow I though they were 14th level, but according to their BAB they seem to be 20th level. So change the +3 things to +5 and add a vorpal weapon. -Derren, the average Drow patrol isn't walking around with +5 Vorpal weapons. If that were the case, no one would dare to walk anywhere remotely near any Drow settlement. Did the patrol Drizzt was part of in Homeland have access to any weapons like you were describing? And, remember, they were the eighth most powerful House in Menzoberranzan, one of the most powerful Drow communities.
Derren S. 11-20-07, 12:46 PM	-Derren, the average Drow patrol isn't walking around with +5 Vorpal weapons. If that were the case, no one would dare to walk anywhere remotely near any Drow settlement. Did the patrol Drizzt was part of in Homeland have access to any weapons like you were describing? And, remember, they were the eighth most powerful House in Menzoberranzan, one of the most powerful Drow communities. Where does it say that we are talking about typical drows? The drow combatant is stated in the OP and according to his BAB he is level 20 (with rather low HP).
Stigger 11-20-07, 12:56 PM	Hate to say it LK, but Derren has it right there. BAB says the drow is 20th and the SEAL is 17th... I think, not really familiar at all with d20 Modern, so I'm just going off of the fighter BAB.
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 01:08 PM	Where does it say that we are talking about typical drows? The drow combatant is stated in the OP and according to his BAB he is level 20 (with rather low HP). -I wasn't going by the hypothetical situation the OP presented. I'm going by the hypothetical situation where a Drow patrol, and a SEAL unit suddenly run into each other in, say, the Underdark. -And, level doesn't mean much, in relation to weaponry, and all that. A 20th level NPC doesn't have to be well equipped.
Warning 11-20-07, 02:59 PM	With both laws of the universe in effect to it's advantages and none of it's disadvatages (Electronics/Magic). A neutral setting if you will. 1:What are the stats of both parties defensive items,disclaiming the creator of this topics fight in FR universe? Enchanted armor/Anti-Infintrary vest armor 2: Offenisve items- Guns/Swords Gernades/Fireball and so forth (damage and effect of all including AOE spells/Items and AP rounds/Enchated arrowed) 3: Miscellanies items/Abilities- Night vision/Globe of darkness Morphine/Healing Spell Telepathy/Radio transmition and so on 4:Classes- Medic/scout/Sniper/Assult/Support/Intelligence gatherer Wizard/Warrior/Healer/Marksmen 5: 3 different area scenrios, best of 3 is usually fair (All areas have all advantages in effect) -Underdark/Open field/Forest or swamp with suffiecent amount of water for camouflage This way, we can stop debating what we think would happen and actually have evidence to as of what would happen Please feel free to add anything in that you feel should be implanted
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 03:05 PM	-The answer is that Elminster, and the rest of the Chosen of Mystra swoop in, kill the Drow and the interloper SEALs. :D :rolleyes:
Warning 11-20-07, 03:36 PM	I had played a RPG once that a friend DMed for me: Technology vs Magic. The inital theory was that everyone started out as a magic capiable user, but eventually some people found technological advancment more promising than training half your life for magic. Their theroy was: Technology is limitless and you can pass it on to the next generation. And magic was not to an extent something that you can pass on, but instead must be learned and devoted through hard training. So eventually the technologist evolved to a state of leaving thier magic in abbsence and soon forgetting thier herritage (Kind of making fun of how we don't really remember how we started in real life-God or Evolution). Anyway, the 2 societies break apart. Technology is at the breaking point of nano technology/mech moible suits/space stations/Robots/phantom and plasma weapons in beta testing with bullets still in the majority of play. A fun outlook on it was, magic had luck stats, while technology could caculate the luck if they were to battle and leave the magican only with his/her skill. So if you were to think..I might get lucky and catch myself and not fall...and your being caculated...the caculation is showing that you have so and so % of falling decreasing luck to intervine. Magic races/classes consisted some of nearly anything mentioned in past fantasy novels even to go as far as Kitunse (demon foxes spawned from Inari). Gods for magic were also in play but did not go forth to the mortal realm kinda like FR. but through some powerful scroll, exceptions could be made from time to time. This is just a intro to it, if you have any questions, feel free to post them on this topic (If this upsets the Mods, then I will take full responsibility for any post other than my own reffering to this post).
Stigger 11-20-07, 03:53 PM	Umm... you just kinda negated the whole point of magical training there. If magic were an isolated thing that nothing could be built and expanded upon, then there would be no magical advancement at all, and it would essentially be a static thing... which kinda undermines the entire premise of it. Technology creates tools, magic can do the same (magical items)... technology branches into disciplines, magic can do the same (schools/subschools/descriptors), technology builds upon itself, magic can do the same (again, schools/subschools/descriptors), technology achieves predictable results, magic does the same, except that the more skilled you get with it, the more powerful that result can be, technology can be dangerous to use if not used properly, magic is pretty much the same... magic can also enhance existing technology, and conceivably, technology could do the same if engineered to... they aren't mutually exclusive things, and in fact it would be in a societies best interest to do both so that they could synergize with each other.
Warning 11-20-07, 05:54 PM	Umm... you just kinda negated the whole point of magical training there. If magic were an isolated thing that nothing could be built and expanded upon, then there would be no magical advancement at all, and it would essentially be a static thing... which kinda undermines the entire premise of it. Technology creates tools, magic can do the same (magical items)... technology branches into disciplines, magic can do the same (schools/subschools/descriptors), technology builds upon itself, magic can do the same (again, schools/subschools/descriptors), technology achieves predictable results, magic does the same, except that the more skilled you get with it, the more powerful that result can be, technology can be dangerous to use if not used properly, magic is pretty much the same... magic can also enhance existing technology, and conceivably, technology could do the same if engineered to... they aren't mutually exclusive things, and in fact it would be in a societies best interest to do both so that they could synergize with each other. A more detailed topic is up. Read it and reply to that please.
Warning 11-21-07, 01:03 PM	If it were up to me, I would pull a 300 with the Seals vs Drow ;) THIS...IS...SURFACE!!! and kick (or shoot for that matter) the messangers of Lolth back into thier portal.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 01:18 AM	If it were up to me, I would pull a 300 with the Seals vs Drow ;) THIS...IS...SURFACE!!! and kick (or shoot for that matter) the messangers of Lolth back into thier portal. -That's something else to think about. If the Drow somehow opened a portal to our world, if the battle took place here, and we (ie, the U.S. Government) knew about it beforehand, I'm sure that there'd be more than a few Navy SEALs on hand. I'm sure there'd be more "hardcore" special forces ready (Ie, Delta Force, or somesuch).
Bullet06320 11-22-07, 01:24 AM	Consider the armor issue as well. During ranged fire, the SEALs armor is going to be all but impenatrable to those hand crossbows, but not that much good against melee weapons, since as far as I'm aware, most modern types are armor are designed to stop penetration, but don't do nearly as well against cutting edges. Sure they still provide some protection, but its not nearly as effective against a bladed weapon as it is against something that pierces. All in all, I'd say it depended on too many variables to say one way or another, and largely could go either way depending on who achieved surprise. Actually, modern kevlar is not only highly bullet resistant, highly shrapnal resistant and very effective against blades as well. I've seen some one try and stab a piece of kevlar and come back with a bent K-Bar And as far as variables go and surprise, drow would probably detect seals in the underdark long before the seals knew they where there. given that seals nightvision and flashlights wouldn't function and the Drows natural darkvision would work. Above ground, probably a 50/50 with an advantage to the drow at night. I got my group working on characters right now, they playing the seals. A standard boat crew of 8, 6 of them are 14th level, one is 16th level(old crusty chief type) and one is 12th level(Rookie type) The Drow raiding party is similar in levels, on 16th level Cleric of LLoth, one 12th level Fighter, 4 14th level fighters, 1 14th level wizard, and 1 14th level ranger
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 01:53 AM	I got my group working on characters right now, they playing the seals. A standard boat crew of 8, 6 of them are 14th level, one is 16th level(old crusty chief type) and one is 12th level(Rookie type) The Drow raiding party is similar in levels, on 16th level Cleric of LLoth, one 12th level Fighter, 4 14th level fighters, 1 14th level wizard, and 1 14th level ranger -As the levels are not equal, I think that the Drow will come out on top.
Stigger 11-22-07, 02:29 AM	Guess they improved kevlar since last I played with it. A Gerber Mk II seemed to have cut through it fairly well. Didn't try to puncture it with it though. Levels look pretty even to me though... both have a 16th, a 12th, and 6 14th levels. Curious as to how that turns out actually.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 02:56 AM	Levels look pretty even to me though... both have a 16th, a 12th, and 6 14th levels. Curious as to how that turns out actually. -Yeah, you're right. I was a little impaired at the time of that posting. :embarrass
Kail 11-22-07, 04:18 AM	SEALs with no tech, screwed. Drow with no magic, screwed. Both without the 'homefield' advantage, bloody, nasty fight with a lost of dead bodies and property damage. M16A1 // M16A2 Rate of fire, cyclic 650 - 750 rounds per minute //800 rounds per minute Muzzle velocity 945 m/s 975 m/s Maximum effective range 460 meters 550 meters Just a bit of relative information for Stigger and crew on rates of fire. Note taken from Wiki, but on this sight http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm The more interesting idea would be what happens if you drop a group of SEALS or any other SF type into FR and leave them for a year. Assuming that they survive, what sort of adventuring group would you end up with and what sort of adaptations would they make? Kail
Derren S. 11-22-07, 04:35 AM	The more interesting idea would be what happens if you drop a group of SEALS or any other SF type into FR and leave them for a year. Assuming that they survive, what sort of adventuring group would you end up with and what sort of adaptations would they make? I don't think they would have a chance of survival. They can't speak the language, have no idea about the local traditions and don't even know that magic and monsters exist. Even if they land in one of the pleasant spots in the FR (not Thay, Underdark, Evermeet) they would have no way to communicate with the people. So either they will have to steal their supplies and get killed by adventurers when they attract them or try to live from the lands and get killed by monsters. They might survive till their ammo runs out but after that they are as good as dead as they have no social or relevant combat skill.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 04:40 AM	I don't think they would have a chance of survival. They can't speak the language, have no idea about the local traditions and don't even know that magic and monsters exist. -Ed Greenwood and Elminster were able to communicate well enough. Hell, everyone who crosses planar boundaries seems to be able to communicate well enough.
Derren S. 11-22-07, 04:44 AM	-Ed Greenwood and Elminster were able to communicate well enough. Hell, everyone who crosses planar boundaries seems to be able to communicate well enough. Probably because Tongues is a wizard spell and Elminster is, among other things, a wizard.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 04:52 AM	Probably because Tongues is a wizard spell and Elminster is, among other things, a wizard. -And the second part of my post? How is it that, say, Joel the Rebel Bard had no problem communicating with the natives of Sigil?
Derren S. 11-22-07, 04:59 AM	I have no knowledge of other dimension travelers in D&D so I can't comment on them. Was Joel the Rebel Bard from earth or from FR or other D&D world? Because in the D&D world people have knowledge of the language of outsiders and could learn it. Also if "the Rebel Bard" is not just a title and Joel is indeed a bard then he also had access to the Tongues spell.
Suin Bahhar 11-22-07, 08:18 AM	Any Seal worth his badge (of 14th level and up) should do just fine surviving in the wilderness of Faerun. If they operated as a team, made some careful observations on first contact with monsters, and adapted to the strange magics employed by their enemies they could make an interesting adventuring party. On first meeting Fearuns commoners they could make effort learning common in a few dozen weeks. Were talking about earths finest soldiers here. Maybe the whole multiverse talks the sort of pidgeon english language, common.
Derren S. 11-22-07, 09:04 AM	I won't consider Seals "earths finest". They are well trained soldiers, thats all. Those seals would be totally overwhelmed by monsters. Imagine those soldiers meeting a troll. They would have no idea how to kill it. Same with magic, they would have no idea how to deal with it. There will be casualties. And how would they learn the language? I doubt any normal commoner would want to have anything to do with them and forcing commoners to cooperate has the side effect that sooner or later adventurers will show up. And when their ammo runs out, which depending on where they land can be pretty fast, after all soldiers don't tend to carry around huge boxes of ammo, they are really in trouble. No weapons, can't understand the language, no local knowledge. Maybe they can come through as beggars or might resort to stealing/mugging people. I don't think they could be more successful than that.
Suin Bahhar 11-22-07, 09:36 AM	They are trained to improvise and survive just that: hostile conditions away from reinforcements. The British S.A.S. have some nasty boobytraps they learn to fashion from natural materials. They even learn how to make knives and spears and some basic selfdefence techniques with them.All these things could take out or neutralize monsters. Stupid trolls can be avoided with stealth or outwitted with terrain advantage.
Derren S. 11-22-07, 09:51 AM	When you don't know what a troll, or any other monster, is you can't outwit it. And thats a fundamental problem the Seals have. No knowledge. Imagine their surprise if they meet a winter wolf and they find out that this wolf not only has a breath weapon but is nearly as smart as them. Or take a monster with Damage Reduction and/or fast healing. The chances are not too good for the Seal team.
Suin Bahhar 11-22-07, 10:15 AM	Why do I have the sudden urge to go back and look at sci-fi classic Aliens? Lets say they airdropped into the Anauroch. Lets say they waste their bullets within one month on defending against nosy Bedine raiders, an opportunistic young adult blue dragon or a hippogriff or something. They could loot their ambushers and come up with (cross)bows and use the most efficient weapons of their surroundings. Magic loot. Let them stumble on a dungeon and emerge with flaming swords and cloaks of elvenkind then wander into the trollmoors after a slow half year advance west. I think their best choice of weapons to learn to use would be elven composite longbows and short swords or quaterstaves :)
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 10:37 AM	Was Joel the Rebel Bard from earth or from FR or other D&D world? Because in the D&D world people have knowledge of the language of outsiders and could learn it. -Joel is from the Realms. He traveled to Sigil in Finder's Bane, and Tymora's Luck. The same Sigil that has doors to everywhere in the D&D multiverse, including Earth. Also if "the Rebel Bard" is not just a title and Joel is indeed a bard then he also had access to the Tongues spell. -Joel never used this spell. Maybe the whole multiverse talks the sort of pidgeon english language, common. -Exxxxxactly. ;) I won't consider Seals "earths finest". They are well trained soldiers, thats all. -Who would you consider "earth's finest" soldiers, out of curiosity. I agree that they are among the most elite, but they aren't the most elite.
Derren S. 11-22-07, 11:05 AM	-Who would you consider "earth's finest" soldiers, out of curiosity. I agree that they are among the most elite, but they aren't the most elite. I don't think you can name "earths finest soldiers" considering that warfare is such a huge field. "Among the best" probably hits the nail on the had but you will have a hard time to find out who is "the best" because it also depends on situation, equipment and mission. (And to be honest I have read over the word "soldier" and thought he was saying that Seals are "earths finest" and not "earths finest soldiers"). But that reminds me of one thing, I don't know exactly what equipment Seals use, but aren't US soldiers become more and more high tech dependent? Things like GPS etc. are standard equipment for them. Do Seals also rely on those gadgets? I don't think that some of the elite soldiers of the US don't use it. The problem is that this thing doesn't work in Faerun so depending on how dependent Seals are on GPS they might be off worse than soldiers for a other, less developed country. Lets say they airdropped into the Anauroch. Lets say they waste their bullets within one month on defending against nosy Bedine raiders, an opportunistic young adult blue dragon or a hippogriff or something. They could loot their ambushers and come up with (cross)bows and use the most efficient weapons of their surroundings. Magic loot. Let them stumble on a dungeon and emerge with flaming swords and cloaks of elvenkind then wander into the trollmoors after a slow half year advance west. I think their best choice of weapons to learn to use would be elven composite longbows and short swords or quaterstaves And how do you know that the Seals will find magical loot? They don't even know that is is magical. Sure they will use the best weapon they have but considering that they are hardly trained to fight with swords and crossbows they might stick with their knife instead. And why do you think they would go into a dungeon? They have no reason for that. And the Anauroch is one of the worst places they can end up. No supplies and lots of strong monsters. And when raise too much of an commotion some shades might want to investigate and then it is game over for the Seals.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 11:43 AM	I don't think you can name "earths finest soldiers" considering that warfare is such a huge field. "Among the best" probably hits the nail on the had but you will have a hard time to find out who is "the best" because it also depends on situation, equipment and mission. -In terms of prestige. Being a solider in the army is one thing, but then being a Spec Ops. member is another. That's what I mean. But that reminds me of one thing, I don't know exactly what equipment Seals use, but aren't US soldiers become more and more high tech dependent? Things like GPS etc. are standard equipment for them. Do Seals also rely on those gadgets? I don't think that some of the elite soldiers of the US don't use it. -I don't know, either. Sol might now. But, I think I know what you're getting at. Even though society as a whole grows more technologically dependent every day, certain institutions, like the Boy Scouts, or like the U.S. Army, still teaches the "basics".
Stigger 11-22-07, 11:46 AM	SEALs are still taught traditional navigation techniques... I'd say US Army Special Forces were a lot more capable overall though. Perhaps not quite as adept at combat, but in terms of breadth and depth of skills, there are only a few units in the same league as they are. Amusingly on the equipment side, and despite what Ghost Recon is telling us, they don't use nearly as much high-tech equipment as most units last I checked, since they often work with less well-equipped militaries and don't really want to stand out and show-off as much as all that high-tech equipment will make them. I'd recommend Tom Clancy's non-fiction guides really for a good look at a lot of these units, very plain and straightforward series that covers everything from training to equipment to interviews with the leadership. Note to Kail however, I generally prefer to rely on Jane's books myself.
Derren S. 11-22-07, 12:21 PM	-I don't know, either. Sol might now. But, I think I know what you're getting at. Even though society as a whole grows more technologically dependent every day, certain institutions, like the Boy Scouts, or like the U.S. Army, still teaches the "basics". Yes,but training the basics and having to use the basics in actual combat are two different things. When it comes to surviving in the wilderness a rebel soldier in africa might have the edge over a US army soldier simply because he has to rely on those skills every day while the US army soldier is only formally trained with that. Or lets take the equipment for example. I know that Seals would use M14 but for this example assume they would use the M16. The M16 is very fragile and prone to jamming without careful care and while Seals will know how to care for their guns they will eventually wear out and jam. The AK47 on the other hand is nearly indestructable and works even under very bad condition. Now when you are a dimension away from your base having a durable AK47 might be better than having a more powerful(?) M16. You see there is a lot of factors to be considered in this case.
Stigger 11-22-07, 01:48 PM	Modern M16a2s are considerably more robust than their earlier variants, and a lot of the mechanical issues were solved with it. Its not nearly as fragile as a lot of people would have you believe, and is probably one of the better rifles in service today, though I'd tend to say the best ones were of German manufacture. Sure the AK47 is robust and very reliable, but is pretty dated compared to more modern weapons. Probably explains why its out of front-line service and has been replaced by the AK74. Certainly more modern weaponry requires greater maintainance and regular cleaning, but the same is true of a sword by and large. If you want a weapon to perform at its best, you have to take care of it, and if you don't, you suffer the consequences of that. As to the training aspects, there's an interesting story of American Special Forces soldiers who were set to deploy to Saudi Arabia for a joint training exercise with Saudi Special Forces, and who took it upon themselves to train up in desert survival and navigation. By the time they deployed, they still didn't feel quite as competant as they felt they could be, but when the time came, the outperformed the Saudis for the most part. When the Saudis commented on the skill of the SF soldiers, they told them of the training program they set up for themselves, and the sorts of exercises they had used prior to their deployment. After hearing about it, the Saudis laughed and told the SF soldiers that they usually just relied on the local bedouin for that stuff, and didn't bother learning it for themselves... I think that says a lot about US Army Special Forces personally.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 02:27 PM	Yes,but training the basics and having to use the basics in actual combat are two different things. When it comes to surviving in the wilderness a rebel soldier in africa might have the edge over a US army soldier simply because he has to rely on those skills every day while the US army soldier is only formally trained with that. -Right now, I'm talking about "basic" skills used out of combat, such as navigation, or finding water/food- things like that. Sure, people who do things all the time, repetativley have advanced knowledge, sure. At the same time, though, you can't discount the abilities of someone who is new at XYZ, but has immersed him/herself in deep study for a short period of time. -Who's going to do better on a test? The kid who doesn't study, but always seems to do well in class, or the kid who doesn't know as much, but studies the night before? There isn't a right answer, which just goes to show ya. As to the training aspects, there's an interesting story of American Special Forces soldiers who were set to deploy to Saudi Arabia for a joint training exercise with Saudi Special Forces, and who took it upon themselves to train up in desert survival and navigation. By the time they deployed, they still didn't feel quite as competant as they felt they could be, but when the time came, the outperformed the Saudis for the most part. When the Saudis commented on the skill of the SF soldiers, they told them of the training program they set up for themselves, and the sorts of exercises they had used prior to their deployment. After hearing about it, the Saudis laughed and told the SF soldiers that they usually just relied on the local bedouin for that stuff, and didn't bother learning it for themselves... I think that says a lot about US Army Special Forces personally. -Interesting story.
Bullet06320 11-24-07, 05:01 AM	Still working a few kinks with the levels out, but in real life not everyone has the skill, training or experiance, thats why I staggered the levels a little bit. Also planning on running several different scenario's with the combat scenario 1: Underground/underdark (my bet is Drow win) scenario 2: A night with the seals in a prepared site (50/50) scenario 3: haven't thought that far ahead yet
Warning 11-24-07, 03:12 PM	Actually the S.A.S is the worlds best Spec OPs elite force. They say US is the best equipt and the British the best trained. And no, you can't even argue the S.A.S would lose vs Drow. It's like comparing a bike to a mortarcyle...the drow would get run over.
Stigger 11-24-07, 04:31 PM	Nothing in life is an automatic victory... so, yeah, that could be argued. ;)
Warning 11-24-07, 04:38 PM	Nothing in life is an automatic victory... so, yeah, that could be argued. ;) So in your logic, even AO can be taken down?
Stigger 11-24-07, 05:07 PM	Nope, Ao transcends mere life. Life implies mortal existance afterall.
Suin Bahhar 11-24-07, 06:13 PM	As to the training aspects, there's an interesting story of American Special Forces soldiers who were set to deploy to Saudi Arabia for a joint training exercise with Saudi Special Forces, and who took it upon themselves to train up in desert survival and navigation. By the time they deployed, they still didn't feel quite as competant as they felt they could be, but when the time came, the outperformed the Saudis for the most part. When the Saudis commented on the skill of the SF soldiers, they told them of the training program they set up for themselves, and the sorts of exercises they had used prior to their deployment. After hearing about it, the Saudis laughed and told the SF soldiers that they usually just relied on the local bedouin for that stuff, and didn't bother learning it for themselves... I think that says a lot about US Army Special Forces personally.So basicly this says that US Army Special Forces can outperform incompetent survivalists? LOL. Or that they can be better rangers than the local military scouts? I imagine the better Special Forces Operatives are comparable in wilderniss skills and stealth to Ren of the Blades (A 20th level ranger).
Derren S. 11-24-07, 06:24 PM	As to the training aspects, there's an interesting story of American Special Forces soldiers who were set to deploy to Saudi Arabia for a joint training exercise with Saudi Special Forces, and who took it upon themselves to train up in desert survival and navigation. By the time they deployed, they still didn't feel quite as competant as they felt they could be, but when the time came, the outperformed the Saudis for the most part. When the Saudis commented on the skill of the SF soldiers, they told them of the training program they set up for themselves, and the sorts of exercises they had used prior to their deployment. After hearing about it, the Saudis laughed and told the SF soldiers that they usually just relied on the local bedouin for that stuff, and didn't bother learning it for themselves... I think that says a lot about US Army Special Forces personally. Even if that story is true I doubt that this american soldier, despite all his training would fare better in the desert than the bedouine.
johnkretzer 11-25-07, 12:16 AM	Even if that story is true I doubt that this american soldier, despite all his training would fare better in the desert than the bedouine. Stigger is not saying that...he is saying that they would come close to equaling a bedouine(and w/ modern tech I would say exceed them). Well atleast that is what I got from the story is that the US Special Forces train to survive in the desert enviroment while the Saudi Arabia relies on native to the area. The point I think is that a US SF is more independent.
johnkretzer 11-25-07, 12:18 AM	Actually the S.A.S is the worlds best Spec OPs elite force. They say US is the best equipt and the British the best trained. And no, you can't even argue the S.A.S would lose vs Drow. It's like comparing a bike to a mortarcyle...the drow would get run over. Do you have a credible souce for this or did you read this in a novel? Just so I know if I should just ignore you outright.
Stigger 11-25-07, 11:08 AM	The point to the story wasn't that the US Special Forces were the best, it's that they take basic skills very seriously, and do their very best to train as best they can to prepare themselves for the terrain that they're going into, even to a degree that the natives don't bother with. To put that another way, they went in expecting to be embarassed by the locals, since they would presumably know the land better, and were surprised to find out they were actually more proficient. The fellows they were with were hardly incompetant, being an elite unit, but they had a very different training philosophy behind them. They were a combat unit, and focused on that mission, rather than the broader set of skills the Americans had. Neither one is superior to the other, they're just different approaches to special forces. US Army Special Forces troops are certainly skilled combatants, but that's hardly the major strength they represent. Take a look at Tom Clancy's nonfiction books Special Forces (one of his tourguide books) and Shadow Warriors (part of his commanders series) which I think gives a very good idea of what they're really about, beyond the macho BS that people seem to assign them.
95 11-27-07, 11:35 PM	why would you assume that not a single person out of a SEAL unit or a Army Special Forces squad would know absolutely nothing about magic or monsters? who in America hasnt seen a movie with or read a book with magic in it? or seen a monster movie? it is DEFINATELY going to be suprising at first and probebly put the guys on their heels..... but its only going to take seeing it two times before they know its not a trick of some sort.... and obviously they wouldnt be as knowledgable as a like leveled adventurer but its not like a common farmer knows all there is to know about the multitude of monsters out there.... maybe the local ones who cause problems but i doubt they know the weakness of a monster from a different region i think people are just looking at this SEAL team as a set of stats and numbers when these men are more than likely military history buffs as well.... hand to hand combat buffs.... these are ELITE soldiers and probebly find what they do interesting and know alot about what got soldiering to where it is.... if you have been taking martial arts for 5-7 years dont you think you picked up a martial weapon proficiany or two? it'd be hard to know what they do know.... what they dont know... what if one guy in the squad played DnD his whole youth and was a powergamer and memorized the whole Monsterous Compendium from 2nd Edition with all the 3 ring binder inserts.... does that change the way you look at the SEAL team?
Lord Karsus 11-28-07, 12:00 AM	what if one guy in the squad played DnD his whole youth and was a powergamer and memorized the whole Monsterous Compendium from 2nd Edition with all the 3 ring binder inserts.... does that change the way you look at the SEAL team? -Ha, ha, ha! SEAL 1: Guys, where are we? SEAL 2: I don't know... SEAL 1: What was that? SEAL 3: It came from over there...Look! :: An Orc jumps out of the underbrush, jagged spear in hand, gibbering in Orcish :: SEAL 1: What the hell!? SEAL 3: What is that thing!? SEAL 2: Oh, don't worry guys. That's only an Orc. Pitiful creatures, actually. An average of four hit points, low Armor Class, low Saving Throws. See? Watch. :: Bang :: SEAL 2: My rifle does 2d10 points of damage. Seeing as I just put the creature out of it's misery, I just inflicted more than 4 points worth of damage.
False-paradox-Truth 11-28-07, 12:38 AM	No, simply interpreting this encounter on basis of the rules. The weapon of the S.E.A.Ls are not that strong in D&D stats. Even if you use the D20 modern stats and not the D&D stats they are only 2D10. At level 14 this is a bit higher than normal when no magical weapons are availiable but still rather low. And in close combat the drow have the advantage even without magic as the soldiers will be rather poorly equipped and trained to handle close combat. And unless you give the soldiers a huge terrain advantage there will be close combat (it takes awfully long to kill lvl 14 fighters with 2d10 damage). So the battle could go either way. The same is true if neither magic or guns worked. If I have to decide who hasthe advantage here I would say drow as unlike S.E.A.Ls they have specialized close combat weapons and training but I leaveit as undecided as it would probably be rather close. No. A shot is seen, thats one drow loosing at average 9-10% of his total HP if the attacker hits. Just a point of clarification. You claim to be comparing the rules back to back against each other. Yet if you actually knew how Modern 20D worked, you would know that all 20D characters suffer from massive damage much more regularly. A character’s massive damage threshold is equal to their constitution modifier, as you can see here: http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/combat/death.dying.healing.php The massive damage threshold was lowered so the developers wouldn’t have to make firearms use an insane amount of dice. So either damage on firearms has to be improved or Damage Threshold has to be lowered significantly for the Drow. More to the point, there are quite a few feats, such as Burst Fire and Double Tap that increase a firearm’s damage potential significantly. Additionally, characters in 20D have significantly more feats that characters in standard D&D. If you look at the feats available to the SEAL and the number of bonus feats he has listed as SPECIAL, he has ample to spare. This would allow him to take feats like blind fight, which helps mitigate the darkness problem and Shot on the Run, which helps with distance. He can also take both the Combat and Defensive Martial Arts trees. All with feats to spare. So please, before you start talking about the rules, be sure that you actually know them.
Stigger 11-28-07, 01:23 AM	-Ha, ha, ha! SEAL 1: Guys, where are we? SEAL 2: I don't know... SEAL 1: What was that? SEAL 3: It came from over there...Look! :: An Orc jumps out of the underbrush, jagged spear in hand, gibbering in Orcish :: SEAL 1: What the hell!? SEAL 3: What is that thing!? SEAL 2: Oh, don't worry guys. That's only an Orc. Pitiful creatures, actually. An average of four hit points, low Armor Class, low Saving Throws. See? Watch. :: Bang :: SEAL 2: My rifle does 2d10 points of damage. Seeing as I just put the creature out of it's misery, I just inflicted more than 4 points worth of damage. :rofl: Priceless image there... :D
Stigger 11-28-07, 01:25 AM	Interesting stuff on d20 Modern there... never looked at it personally, not that I've argued anything from a gaming perspective here, but it sounds like it might be something worth looking into.
Derren S. 11-28-07, 04:21 AM	Just a point of clarification. You claim to be comparing the rules back to back against each other. Yet if you actually knew how Modern 20D worked, you would know that all 20D characters suffer from massive damage much more regularly. A character’s massive damage threshold is equal to their constitution modifier, as you can see here: Thats another disadvantage for the Seals as the drow operate under D&D rules with its 50Hp massive damage.
Stigger 11-28-07, 06:34 AM	I'd think they would get the standard D&D MDT versus 'archaic' weapons, while the drow would get the D20 Modern MDT versus firearms... at least that's what I'd do were I the DM for it.
Warning 11-28-07, 01:46 PM	I'd think they would get the standard D&D MDT versus 'archaic' weapons, while the drow would get the D20 Modern MDT versus firearms... at least that's what I'd do were I the DM for it. Well, in reality, I guess truth be told we can't compare these 2. The Drow setting of this themed topic would need to be based from statistics of DnD. Where as the Seals would have to be based from factual statistics of reality. Kinda how RAS mentioned that a novel battle scene would not work based on dice. But either way I still say the Seals would win vs the Drow...you have some 4 Ft tall elf vs a 5'11 elite Spec Ops team.
johnkretzer 11-28-07, 03:17 PM	Well, in reality, I guess truth be told we can't compare these 2. The Drow setting of this themed topic would need to be based from statistics of DnD. Where as the Seals would have to be based from factual statistics of reality. Kinda how RAS mentioned that a novel battle scene would not work based on dice. But either way I still say the Seals would win vs the Drow...you have some 4 Ft tall elf vs a 5'11 elite Spec Ops team. Actualy aren't most Special Forces soldiers shorter than average? Also that is irrelevant...height doesn't matter that much in combat. As a matter of fact being tall can have it's downsides.
Stigger 11-28-07, 03:29 PM	Gurkha... size doesn't matter.
Lord Karsus 11-28-07, 04:43 PM	Actualy aren't most Special Forces soldiers shorter than average? Also that is irrelevant...height doesn't matter that much in combat. As a matter of fact being tall can have it's downsides. -I don't think that height has any impact on one's ability to survive the tests and trials to become a SEAL, Ranger, or whatever else. -And yes, being tall has many downsides. As a short person, I can attest to the fact that I can fit in places you tall people can not. Gurkha... size doesn't matter. -That's what she said. ;) -Heh, that fit pretty well. My little sister and all her little buzzing friends are constantly playing a game like that, where they say something like, "that's what she said", or "in bed", or something like that, after someone says something.
Stigger 11-28-07, 04:46 PM	Most of the things I've read say that big, bulky guys don't really succeed as often as one would think. Its more about endurance, mental and physical, and intelligence than anything else. Which of course is not to say that big bulky guys can't have intelligence and endurance, but generally the bulk works against them in a lot of respects.
Lord Karsus 11-28-07, 05:18 PM	Which of course is not to say that big bulky guys can't have intelligence and endurance, but generally the bulk works against them in a lot of respects. -Bulk can be broken down into two categories from how I see it: fat and muscle matter. Fat doesn't work to your advantage, but strength certainly does.
Stigger 11-28-07, 06:45 PM	The general theme of most things I've read on SF physical tendencies is not the buff-monster, extreme nautilus work-out types, but rather towards the sorts of frames and builds one would find among distance swimmers and triathletes. Endurance over raw physical strength, no matter how many movies you see with Jesse Ventura, Swarzenegger, or Stallone.
False-paradox-Truth 11-28-07, 09:18 PM	Thats another disadvantage for the Seals as the drow operate under D&D rules with its 50Hp massive damage. You are ignoring the point. From a mechanical standpoint, an M1A1 Abrams Tank does somewhere in the area of 10d12 damage, or a possible 120 damage. Since an M1A1 uses depleted Uranium "shells" (more like spears really) that are capable of flipping a Soviet T-80 model tank (which weights in excess of 40 tonnes) we can see guess that come to the conclusion that modern weapons are not presented accurately. The abstract nature of D&D’s hitpoint system would allow for a high level fighter to take not one, but two direct hits to the chest before dieing (assuming that he makes the first massive damage save). This is where the lower than normal dice count and death by Massive Damage rule come into play. It would require too many dice (and by extension, too many hit points) to accurately simulate firearms. Imagine, for a moment if an AK-74u did 6d12 points of damage to a target. That might be a more accurate portrayal of an AK-74u’s firepower, but hit points would have to be adjusted in order to make survival possible. Even on a bad day, 6d12 points of damage is more than sufficient to kill 3 Hit Dice in one or two shots. Given that, the developers decided to simply use fewer dice an a lower Massive Damage threshold for the sake of game play. Standing by my original post, you must either increase firearms damage dramatically or make Forgotten Realms characters deal with a lower Massive Damage threshold in order to make an accurate comparison. That, or you could continue to suggest that a level fifteen fighter with a constitution modifier of +1 (102 HP average) could survive two hit from a 120mm tank gun.
False-paradox-Truth 11-28-07, 09:21 PM	The general theme of most things I've read on SF physical tendencies is not the buff-monster, extreme nautilus work-out types, but rather towards the sorts of frames and builds one would find among distance swimmers and triathletes. Endurance over raw physical strength, no matter how many movies you see with Jesse Ventura, Swarzenegger, or Stallone. You got a big point. Our football team (smallest team in the league in terms of size) went undefeated this year. We had great conditioning and just kept moving at a pace that the big boys couldn't match over time.
johnkretzer 11-29-07, 01:58 AM	-Bulk can be broken down into two categories from how I see it: fat and muscle matter. Fat doesn't work to your advantage, but strength certainly does. Actualy large size does have one handicap that a smaller size doesn't. Larger people need more food to sustain themselves. Which means they have to carry more food...for long range mission this is definitly a handicap. Though this might be BS as I heard this from my brother years ago...so it might or might not be true. But in one area big people have more trouble sneaking around then shorter people(less to hide...not sayinbg there aren't big people who can't stealthy it is just that shorter people do a have a advantage). And sneaking around is what Special Forces do.
Derren S. 11-29-07, 03:53 AM	You are ignoring the point. You are ignoring what HP represents. Notthe condition of your body but the ability to avoid damage. A D&D hit doesn't mean that the character got actually hit otherwise every PHB character would die after being hit once. So a "hit" with a M1A1 where the target doesn't die can also representa near hit which knocks the target prone, or otherwise reduces its ability to reduce damage.
False-paradox-Truth 11-29-07, 10:02 AM	You are ignoring what HP represents. Notthe condition of your body but the ability to avoid damage. Last time I checked, that was AC. In D&D Modern, thats why characters get a sort of dodge bonus every level. Hit points were not made to make sense, only to make the game last more than two rounds. So right here is a picture of an M1A1 Combat Tank that suffered from Friendly Fire: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7a/AbramsLost-1991.JPG In game terms, that would be around 120 points of damage, enough to ignore that tank's hardness. What you're basically saying is that a barbarian that uses his rage ability to "gain phenomenal strength and durability" (PHB) in the form of a strength and constitution bonus can take 120 hit points worth of damage (the same as the picture above), make a DC 15 Fort save, and survive.
Warning 11-29-07, 11:17 AM	None of you have ever fought before from your comments thus far. And I'm not talking about your little tiquondo classes or kick boxing. I am talking about a straight up street fight. Height does matter, I would know from personal experience. I am 5'9 and I'd like to say that I am fairly built. But If I am fist fighting someone that is 6'3 or so that is also fairly built, they have reach on me and not to mention more body weight. They can use there mass over me and I can get overpowered if I am not careful. I guess this doesn't apply to the Drow since they have magic to increase their speed or strength, but I just wanted to post this because everyone here is basing their knowelege from I have no idea where: movies? Books? Internet? Friends?. And once again please don't try to argue this with me from your computer, I know what I am talking about 1st hand. PLEASE NOTE: This post is not promiting any fighting or such in anyway
NalarTheQuestioner 11-29-07, 11:46 AM	Hello all, I just wanted to weigh in on this long-running debate from an experience/practicality standpoint as I don't think that the game system allows for a particularly realistic representation of people or combat (but I love the game, don't get me wrong). Here's my background:I'm about 5'8" and 145lbs (not particularly large). I started playing D&D 15 years ago, I've studied various martial arts for the last 13 years, I've been active in the SCA where we do full-contact armored combat w/rattan weapons (simiar to kendo) for about three years, and I served in the Marines as a scout-swimer and a scout-sniper for four years from 2000-2004. I did a tour in Iraq during the invasion. Anyway, all that to say, I think that I would have my head handed to me on a platter by a drow warrior. I might get lucky, and Tymora could be smiling, but I'd give my chances at ~20-30%, and that's with a proper melee weapon. With a non-functional rifle, drop that by a good 5-10%. To be honest, I don't think that most spec ops types would do any better - take it from me, while there is crossover, there's a very big difference between hand-to-hand combat with swords and what we train to do today. Against some other human on earth today who came at you with a sword, I'd say that the odds were much better, but against a psychotic, homicidal elf who's done nothing but train to kill, manipulate and terrorise for three hundred years...survival would be a stretch. Given some time "in country" it's a different story, but dropped in and attacked by drow ten minutes later, unlikely. As for night vision - they work very well in low-light conditions (say, a clear night), you can see for quite a ways. In an underground environment with only built-in IR illumination you're a lot more limited. And the field of view isn't the problem, it's the depth perception. Anywho, enjoy, and remember - it's not like real life for a reason.
Warning 11-29-07, 11:50 AM	Nalar nice try, who are you? You just made that account. It's someone that has already posted before. Too bad I can't look up IP adress. So far....1 post total...quite the topic to pick your first...Nice try who ever you are.
NalarTheQuestioner 11-29-07, 12:22 PM	Nalar nice try, who are you? You just made that account. It's someone that has already posted before. Too bad I can't look up IP adress. So far....1 post total...quite the topic to pick your first...Nice try who ever you are. If this is the type of courtesy that exists on this forum, this may very well be my last post. I did just make this account, and this was the first post I made. Now, I'm not sure what exactally upset you so much about my post, or how you would like me to verify my identity, but if you have any verifying questions that you'd like to ask, I'd be happy to oblige.
Warning 11-29-07, 12:34 PM	If this is the type of courtesy that exists on this forum, this may very well be my last post. I did just make this account, and this was the first post I made. Now, I'm not sure what exactally upset you so much about my post, or how you would like me to verify my identity, but if you have any verifying questions that you'd like to ask, I'd be happy to oblige. Don't you think it's a little wierd when I look at your profile and you have no games listed that you play on the gaming forum. You choose this post that is probally the most out of place on this forum. And then you start posting other topics only after you read my post. "I have been in the military and the drow would whoop me!" So far everyone posting this topic that has been in the military has been the opposing poster to the drow. Who knows, you could be telling the truth, but I doubt it. Take care Nalar.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-29-07, 12:36 PM	If this is the type of courtesy that exists on this forum... Warning doesn't represent everyone here, far from it. Keep posting, you'll find that most people here are quite friendly.:)
Warning 11-29-07, 12:42 PM	Warning doesn't represent everyone here, far from it. Keep posting, you'll find that most people here are quite friendly.:) A little jugdemental I'd say. Nice to meet you too Rinonalyrna. My name is Fayt. I'd say that I am fairly nice and give people the benifit of the doubt. I did also note that he could be telling the truth, but it just seems unlikely. So if I am wrong, I will announce it. By the way, are you a moderator? You seem a little assertive at times. Not that it's a bad thing, just wondering.
NalarTheQuestioner 11-29-07, 12:45 PM	Warning doesn't represent everyone here, far from it. Keep posting, you'll find that most people here are quite friendly.:) Rinonalyrna, it's nice to meet you too. Warning, keep in mind that courtesy should come from the first post, not after you've been called on a lack of it. Also, I'd be happy to answer any "verification questions" if you'll sleep easier from it, otherwise, happy gaming.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-29-07, 12:45 PM	By the way, are you a moderator? No, but I thought the manner in which you harassed a new poster was oddly ironic.
Warning 11-29-07, 12:50 PM	No, but I thought the manner in which you harassed a new poster was oddly ironic. Granted, but did you see where I was comming from? Maybe I was a little too hasty with the accusation, but I still see it as possible and if so very shameful. So I guess I just let it go and re-adress the post given with a reply, correct?
ORC_Sinister 11-29-07, 12:50 PM	we need to re-direct this thread. It's off topic and people are being rude to each other for no reason. Let's get back ON topic and stop the flaming. Thanks Sin
Warning 11-29-07, 01:31 PM	we need to re-direct this thread. It's off topic and people are being rude to each other for no reason. Let's get back ON topic and stop the flaming. By the way, Seals have chest hair and Drow don't! Seals FTW!Thanks Sin As you can see, Sin just replied that he was for the Seals. Now then, in a swamped forest, who would you say be the victor? (I am placing this in the Seal advantage since everyone already gave the Drow an advantage of batteling in the underdark) Trip wires from trees? Mines in wet leaves? Snipers above and far? Thermal vision? So I guess depending on the area, does change the standpoint a bit. Nalar, have you ever been in special forces? If so, then I guess I can conceed my point. Not to take away from your military training, but there are other posters who have been in the military and said very different from you. There is a big difference between the grunts of the military and spec ops, you would know this better than me I assume.
johnkretzer 11-29-07, 01:54 PM	None of you have ever fought before from your comments thus far. And I'm not talking about your little tiquondo classes or kick boxing. I am talking about a straight up street fight. Height does matter, I would know from personal experience. I am 5'9 and I'd like to say that I am fairly built. But If I am fist fighting someone that is 6'3 or so that is also fairly built, they have reach on me and not to mention more body weight. They can use there mass over me and I can get overpowered if I am not careful. I guess this doesn't apply to the Drow since they have magic to increase their speed or strength, but I just wanted to post this because everyone here is basing their knowelege from I have no idea where: movies? Books? Internet? Friends?. And once again please don't try to argue this with me from your computer, I know what I am talking about 1st hand. PLEASE NOTE: This post is not promiting any fighting or such in anyway Actualy I have been in a couple of real fights myself. The height difference won't matter that much...especialy since the drow hitting them w/ handcrossbows... All I said was that Special Forces members are usualy on the shorter side. I speak from 1st hand expeience since I know a couple and have read books(not fictional nobels) about the Special Forces. Your 'street fighting' experiences are ok...but remember that the drow train for 30+ years to deal with larger and stronger opponents. Also I find it ironic that you want to take your 'street fighting' experience at face value. Yet you pretty much insulted another posted for his stated experiences...if he wasn't offended I would be laughing at you.
Warning 11-29-07, 02:02 PM	Also I find it ironic that you want to take your 'street fighting' experience at face value. Yet you pretty much insulted another posted for his stated experiences...if he wasn't offended I would be laughing at you. Who is this he? I was directing it at the topic and the popular concensus of that situation. A miconception? And I said, the Drow would not fall into this debate of height, but yes it does matter in real life, and for the Seals it can. You have to remember it does not matter much when you have a gun...all I was saying if it came down to it, as long as they did not have any spells that enhanced thier attributes, The Seals would knock the Drow down. I know that, unless you're Bruce Lee...and you are 4-5FT tall base height...I am not going to back down, and I would pumble you.
Stigger 11-29-07, 06:53 PM	Having grown up in the 80's, as a little freak goth, who was usually in fights maybe once a month, for being a '***' by the suburban jock boys, for about 6 years of my life, that adds up to a lot of fights after a while. Trust me when I tell you that the big football player types, who showed up to beat up some fairies, were usually the first to go down after getting a steel-toed shoe in the knee. Though really, I'd much rather face jocks than the skinheads we used to run into on Haight in SF. Having gotten into it with more than a few groups of WAR skins around there, I'd always go for the little guys first, as they were usually a lot more dangerous and left you hurting way more than the big guys ever could. Only thing most of the big guys had going for them was reach, and that could be negated with some relatively simple stuff like stepping into the hit and going to work on their crotch (no such thing as unfair in a street fight) and stomach... though the bear-hugs could hurt pretty bad if they got you solidly... anyway, I'm pretty sure I know street fighting on a far more intimate level than most around here. As to whether or not being a Marine counts as SF types, do keep in mind they were the only service excluded from Nunn-Cohen and its follow-ups... and presuming the scout-sniper and scout-swimmer thing is true, and I've no reason to doubt it, well, that's elite enough for me thanks. Oh, and by the way, welcome Nalar.
Lord Karsus 11-29-07, 07:51 PM	None of you have ever fought before from your comments thus far. And I'm not talking about your little tiquondo classes or kick boxing. I am talking about a straight up street fight. Height does matter, I would know from personal experience. I am 5'9 and I'd like to say that I am fairly built. But If I am fist fighting someone that is 6'3 or so that is also fairly built, they have reach on me and not to mention more body weight. They can use there mass over me and I can get overpowered if I am not careful. I guess this doesn't apply to the Drow since they have magic to increase their speed or strength, but I just wanted to post this because everyone here is basing their knowelege from I have no idea where: movies? Books? Internet? Friends?. And once again please don't try to argue this with me from your computer, I know what I am talking about 1st hand. PLEASE NOTE: This post is not promiting any fighting or such in anyway -That's fine and all, but war isn't running around and having random fist fights. It's just a little more complicated than that.
Warning 11-30-07, 02:13 AM	-That's fine and all, but war isn't running around and having random fist fights. It's just a little more complicated than that. And as I said, that's where Guns nullify the cause for such a need. I'd assume since the Drow use swords, if they were to get close, it's over. But then again, we may not be talking Artemis or Drizzt skill level.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 02:18 AM	And as I said, that's where Guns nullify the cause for such a need. -Actual combat aside, war is more than brute strength, and/or size. As was discussed, larger individuals have numerous disadvantages over their smaller counterparts: harder to sneak, harder to hide, require (normally) more fluids and sustinence, and so on...
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:20 AM	Actually, at 14th level we're coming fairly close to that skill level. Besides, technically, a Protection from Normal Missiles spell should offer plenty of protection from firearms...
Warning 11-30-07, 02:21 AM	Actually, at 14th level we're coming fairly close to that skill level. Besides, technically, a Protection from Normal Missiles spell should offer plenty of protection from firearms... Say that to an AWP or straight up .50 Cal.
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:33 AM	Despite your obvious love of technology and belief that it would overwhelm magic, remember that it operates under predictable rules and principles of physics and mechanics, and cannot deviate from those rules and principles. Magic however takes those rules and principles, twists them around, bends them to its will, and just smiles while your mouth goes agape and your brain goes gooey as reality breaks... As to the AWP and 12.7, it probably would deflect a few shots from them. Also keep in mind that a Wall of Force > most weapons you throw at it that an infantry unit might have... ;)
Warning 11-30-07, 02:36 AM	Despite your obvious love of technology and belief that it would overwhelm magic, remember that it operates under predictable rules and principles of physics and mechanics, and cannot deviate from those rules and principles. Magic however takes those rules and principles, twists them around, bends them to its will, and just smiles while your mouth goes agape and your brain goes gooey as reality breaks... As to the AWP and 12.7, it probably would deflect a few shots from them. Also keep in mind that a Wall of Force > most weapons you throw at it that an infantry unit might have... ;) Do you know what an AWP can do? It doesn't matter if you have a 3 inch concrete brick wall...it's going through. I don't think some Drow is going to stand there and take the hit with some armor enchantment.
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:45 AM	I'm well aware of what it can do actually. I'm also aware that d20 modern massively undercuts weapons damage, so the 100 points of DR from Protection from Arrows/Normal Missiles/whateverits3.xnameis should offer quite a bit of protection against it. In other words, as we have no real way to say what a spell can do objectively speaking, we only have the various rulesets to base our conclusions off of, so that abjuration will in all likelihood offer a tremendous amount of protection against firearms. If a 120mm tank can only do 120 damage maximum from what's been said above... Sure the two systems aren't really all that compatible, and are at best horribly abstracted, but its the best we have since none of us can actually cast spells (except maybe the Karsii perhaps) to test out these theories... ;)
Warning 11-30-07, 02:52 AM	I'm well aware of what it can do actually. I'm also aware that d20 modern massively undercuts weapons damage, so the 100 points of DR from Protection from Arrows/Normal Missiles/whateverits3.xnameis should offer quite a bit of protection against it. In other words, as we have no real way to say what a spell can do objectively speaking, we only have the various rulesets to base our conclusions off of, so that abjuration will in all likelihood offer a tremendous amount of protection against firearms. If a 120mm tank can only do 120 damage maximum from what's been said above... Sure the two systems aren't really all that compatible, and are at best horribly abstracted, but its the best we have since none of us can actually cast spells (except maybe the Karsii perhaps) to test out these theories... ;) A gun will always hurt with the same amount of damage and fire with the same speed and so on. The only thing the person needs to do is aim it. With magic, ones fireball might not be as powerful,fast,big as other casters. Ones sword user might not be as skilled as another or fast or agile like. This is where guns have the advantage...unless of course you're talking about Elmenster.
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:59 AM	You've got to be joking... and obviously have no idea just how ballistics work. First off, you have to take into account range, which affects velocity, then you have to take into account angle of impact, then you have to determine point of impact, etcetera and so forth, which is the really simple version of it. It's pretty much exactly the same as hitting someone with a sword, it depends on where you hit them and under what circumstances, presuming you even hit them at all. That's true of pretty much any form of attack you can think of, including spells, with only a few exceptions.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 03:02 AM	A gun will always hurt with the same amount of damage and fire with the same speed and so on. The only thing the person needs to do is aim it. With magic, ones fireball might not be as powerful,fast,big as other casters. Ones sword user might not be as skilled as another or fast or agile like. This is where guns have the advantage...unless of course you're talking about Elmenster. In a perfect world why yes all guns and bullets are made to perfection...but it seems that duds do happen. Also one skill in aiming a gun is a very important in the shooting a gun..as important if not more so then ones skill with a sword. Also it is spelled Elminster...not trying to attack you I am not the world's greatest speller and typod do happen. Though the 'e' is not even close to the 'i' on a keyboard...
Warning 11-30-07, 03:03 AM	You've got to be joking... and obviously have no idea just how ballistics work. First off, you have to take into account range, which affects velocity, then you have to take into account angle of impact, then you have to determine point of impact, etcetera and so forth, which is the really simple version of it. It's pretty much exactly the same as hitting someone with a sword, it depends on where you hit them and under what circumstances, presuming you even hit them at all. That's true of pretty much any form of attack you can think of, including spells, with only a few exceptions. I don't think you understood me. I was saying, a gun is easier to kill with than a fireball is I would assume. And it has the potential to do greater or less damage depending on the Caster and the Shooter.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 03:09 AM	I don't think you understood me. I was saying, a gun is easier to kill with than a fireball is I would assume. And it has the potential to do greater or less damage depending on the Caster and the Shooter. -In game terms, a gun does 2d10, or whatever. The minimum damage a Fireball can do is 5d6, since it does 1d6 per level, you you need to be at least 5th level to cast the spell.
Stigger 11-30-07, 03:23 AM	Gun, only as accurate as the shooter, any monkey can pick one up, but it doesn't mean that they'll hit anything. Its not as easy as it looks on television. As to the ease of killing with a fireball... lets say 14th level caster... 960'/320yds range, 20' radius blast, inflicts 10-60 fire damage to everything in that radius... can't think of many guns that will do that with a single shot. Even better it goes exactly where you want it, so you can set it for ground effect or airburst as desired. And you don't even create that obnoxious pressure that explosives would so its safe to use relatively close to friendlies, apart from that whole setting fire to stuff part. Dunno about you, but that fireball sounds a lot better to me than a gun.
Warning 11-30-07, 03:25 AM	-In game terms, a gun does 2d10, or whatever. The minimum damage a Fireball can do is 5d6, since it does 1d6 per level, you you need to be at least 5th level to cast the spell. In game terms, I do think you will be seeing any .50 Cal. Stats. Gun, only as accurate as the shooter, any monkey can pick one up, but it doesn't mean that they'll hit anything. Its not as easy as it looks on television. As to the ease of killing with a fireball... lets say 14th level caster... 960'/320yds range, 20' radius blast, inflicts 10-60 fire damage to everything in that radius... can't think of many guns that will do that with a single shot. Even better it goes exactly where you want it, so you can set it for ground effect or airburst as desired. And you don't even create that obnoxious pressure that explosives would so its safe to use relatively close to friendlies, apart from that whole setting fire to stuff part. Dunno about you, but that fireball sounds a lot better to me than a gun. How about an RPG via laser motioned censored fire control to hit on target? You are giving Magic full variety and letting Guns have no better than let's say 17th century maximum potential. This feels like you using the same advantage of "only fighting in the underdark"
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 03:27 AM	In game terms, I don't think you will be seeing any .50 Cal. Stats. -They're in one of the d20 Modern books.
Warning 11-30-07, 03:28 AM	-They're in one of the d20 Modern books. Let me go back and edit my post so that I may correct my mistake and have a good laugh at you :D
Warning 11-30-07, 03:30 AM	-They're in one of the d20 Modern books. In game terms, I do think you will be seeing any .50 Cal. Stats. What are you talking about dude? Stop messing around.
Stigger 11-30-07, 03:31 AM	As far as I know, from just a glance I took, the Barret was statted in D20 Modern, in the Armory I think it was, along with several machine guns, so it quite probably is in there somewhere. Besides, a .50 cal isn't really that impressive, not compared to things like the GAU-8/A Avenger or the GAU-13/A guns...
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 03:31 AM	-Oi Vey...:( :P
Warning 11-30-07, 03:33 AM	As far as I know, from just a glance I took, the Barret was statted in D20 Modern, in the Armory I think it was, along with several machine guns, so it quite probably is in there somewhere. Besides, a .50 cal isn't really that impressive, not compared to things like the GAU-8/A Avenger or the GAU-13/A guns... Firearms with calibers larger than 13 to 15 mm are generally thought of as autocannons instead of heavy machine guns. I am trying to stay reasonable. (And I was even being as nice as to stay with handguns still giving the Seals a disadvantage, Deagle)
Stigger 11-30-07, 03:39 AM	My point was that most standard small arms don't compare that well to a fireball... even grenades are pretty anemic next to it.
Warning 11-30-07, 03:42 AM	My point was that most standard small arms don't compare that well to a fireball... even grenades are pretty anemic next to it. Too bad a fireball will always be a fireball. Where as you turn a colt .45 into a The M2 Browning machine gun.....ouch. But hey, not all the Drow can use Magic such as fireballs, alot use melee of sword use instead. -Word to the wise: "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"
Stigger 11-30-07, 03:56 AM	How exactly do you turn a M1911a1 to a M2hb? First off you have the whole mass issue... ;) And to address what I think was your point there, Disintegrate > M2hb.
Derren S. 11-30-07, 03:57 AM	Don't bring a knife to a gun fight" That doesn't really apply to D&D when swords do double as much damage as the unenchanted weapons of the seals. Depending on the spells the drow have access to and active they can be invulnerable to most things the seals shoot at them. Low level spells like entropic shield and protection from arrows is enough to reduce the damage the seals can do by a large amount. And with invisibility the seals wouldn't even be able to fire back as they can't see the drow. In such duel situations magic when availiaable is always superior to technology. Only on large scale where availiability and cost is a factor can technology use its advantage of mass production.
Warning 11-30-07, 03:59 AM	That doesn't really apply to D&D when swords do double as much damage as the unenchanted weapons of the seals. Depending on the spells the drow have access to and active they can be invulnerable to most things the seals shoot at them. Low level spells like entropic shield and protection from arrows is enough to reduce the damage the seals can do by a large amount. And with invisibility the seals wouldn't even be able to fire back as they can't see the drow. That's it! I've gone off to play Halo 3...where guns solve all problems. I'll read all post within an hour thereafter.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 04:01 AM	That doesn't really apply to D&D when swords do double as much damage as the unenchanted weapons of the seals. Dagger: 1d4 Short Sword: 1d6 Rapier: 1d6 Scimitar: 1d6 Long Sword: 1d8 Great Sword: 2d6 Bastard Sword: 1d10 "Gun" (As defined earlier): 2d10
Stigger 11-30-07, 04:09 AM	Yeah, except if someone is close enough to bash on you with a sword, and you've got a gun in your hand, good luck getting the assault rifle to bear on them. Pistol might work at least...
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 04:20 AM	Yeah, except if someone is close enough to bash on you with a sword, and you've got a gun in your hand, good luck getting the assault rifle to bear on them. Pistol might work at least... -Bash 'em back with the rifle butt! :P
Stigger 11-30-07, 04:23 AM	Surprisingly difficult to do when you're on your arse after being beat with a heavy metal object...
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 04:25 AM	Surprisingly difficult to do when you're on your arse after being beat with a heavy metal object... -I'm just sayin'.
Stigger 11-30-07, 04:27 AM	Having been beaten by WAR skin holding a 2lb cane, I can tell you its an extremely unpleasant experience, and very difficult to ignore.
Warning 11-30-07, 04:53 AM	-Bash 'em back with the rifle butt! :P Or if you know you're gonna lose, just pull the pin on the grenade. Now you take the Drow with you.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 05:00 AM	Or if you know you're gonna lose, just pull the pin on the grenade. Now you take the Drow with you. -Not necessarily, but you'll give him one hell of a memory, and a large dosage of pain.
Derren S. 11-30-07, 05:50 AM	Dagger: 1d4 Short Sword: 1d6 Rapier: 1d6 Scimitar: 1d6 Long Sword: 1d8 Great Sword: 2d6 Bastard Sword: 1d10 "Gun" (As defined earlier): 2d10 Shocking, Flaming Great Sword +2: 4d6 +2 Not to mention that the drow also have the better armor thanks to enchantments. And if only one drow has greater invisibility active the seals will almost certainly loose as they can't fight back. The same applies to Protection from Arrows/Entropic Shield/Stoneskin combos.
Warning 11-30-07, 01:20 PM	Shocking, Flaming Great Sword +2: 4d6 +2 Not to mention that the drow also have the better armor thanks to enchantments. And if only one drow has greater invisibility active the seals will almost certainly loose as they can't fight back. The same applies to Protection from Arrows/Entropic Shield/Stoneskin combos. What about Riot shields? Those can take quite a few hits. I bet that's not in the modern DnD.
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:38 PM	Why would a special forces guy be carrying a police weapon?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 02:49 PM	Why would a special forces guy be carrying a police weapon? Because this scenario takes place in Idiotic-Bizzaro World?
Stigger 11-30-07, 05:36 PM	Ah, right, forgot... thanks for reminding me Rino. :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 06:22 PM	Ah, right, forgot... thanks for reminding me Rino. :D You're welcome.;)
Warning 11-30-07, 07:22 PM	Because this scenario takes place in Idiotic-Bizzaro World? If you do not like it, do not post on it. Simple. Thanks for your time.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 07:35 PM	If you do not like it, do not post on it. Simple. Thanks for your time. I'm sorry you can't take a joke. The other posters here can, so I'll continue to post wherever I please. Thanks.:)
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 11:31 PM	Shocking, Flaming Great Sword +2: 4d6 +2 -No, no, no. You can't do that. Be more careful when you speak, since you simply said, "...when swords do double as much damage...". You did not mention that these swords are enchanted.
Stigger 12-01-07, 06:34 AM	Point to LK on that one...
Lord Karsus 12-01-07, 11:40 AM	-If Drow can have enchanted weapons, so too can the SEALs. I'm sure there some kind of system in d20 Modern that allows one to "upgrade" their weapons. Someone?
False-paradox-Truth 12-01-07, 12:05 PM	Yes there is. There is also a form of magic in modern 20d.
Warning 12-01-07, 12:36 PM	AOE enchanted bullets hitting on impact! Or even better yet, soul seeking homing projecting missiles. Oh, the possibilities, rofl. GG Drow..
False-paradox-Truth 12-01-07, 04:02 PM	More to the point, human weapons can gain some of the qualities of enchanted weapons without magic. If, for example, you wanted a +1 weapon (that gave an attack and damage bonus), you just pay more money for a better weapon, as can be seen here: http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/equipment/mastercraft.objects.php So, if you wanted a non-magical fight, you could give SEALs weapons that are "enchanted" while Realmsians can only get masterwork.
Warning 12-02-07, 01:31 PM	Page 10 goes to the Seals! Up yours Lolth. I am dissapointed in quite a few people and proud of another few. It seems that, being bias always has a role in people. And sure enough, when you take something someone enjoys, such as FR, and give it an outside challenge, people are naturally going to get upset. I really wish people wouldn't take fantasy novels to heart, but I have yet to see anyone post that has a Drizzt/Jarlaxlee or any of RAS character avtars for that matter and not see a different light. I play and read the FR universe, but I mean, honestly, I just can't see some 4Ft tall elves that live underground taking on an elite military based Spec Ops team. It's silly, it's almost like saying some hobbit is going to give Artemis a run for his money(Using the analogy in terms of 2 different worlds such as drow/seals and lotr/fr). Get anyone that is in this Gleemax forum with a RAS avatar and I can 99.9% guarantee that they will tell you Drow would win hands down. So koodos to posters that love FR and saw this situation for what would actually happen if it were to occur. Real life>Fantasy always. "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." -Carl Sagan
Lord Karsus 12-02-07, 02:53 PM	Real life>Fantasy always -This is incorrect, simply because you claim it to be an absolute, when it is not.
Warning 12-02-07, 03:00 PM	-This is incorrect, simply because you claim it to be an absolute, when it is not. Correction, what does not exist can not undo what does exist. I claim me showing you my hand is absolute compared to telling you about it.
Lord Karsus 12-02-07, 03:08 PM	Correction, what does not exist can not undo what does exist. I claim me showing you my hand is absolute compared to telling you about it. -Your statement is logically incorrect because it was written in such a way that made it absolute. 'Real Life' is not always '>' 'Fantasy Life'. If the question was, "Which is better at being not real?", your statement is incorrect. Thus, being an absolute, it is wrong. Now, if it wasn't an absolute... -That's what I meant.
Warning 12-02-07, 05:02 PM	If the question was, "Which is better at being not real?" -Real life can not be better at not real because this question is simply illogical. Can logic explain why 2+2=5? No, because it does not, and logic can not explain what is not logical. Real life can always beat not real because it has reality supporting it. You can never say a Drow can beat a seal. A Drow is not real and we can never mesure it on any scale except for the concept for "fake". You can always aregue a Seal could win because we have factual basis supporting it's claim. -Not real being better at "not real" is a contridiction in it self. We take real life materials to create these huminoid figures named "Drow", give them gravity in FR, give them body parts, give them sight/taste/touch/sound/smell. Can not real give anything? How can something that does not exist give meaning to itself? Real created not real. Therefore your theory fails.
Lord Karsus 12-02-07, 05:41 PM	Real life can not be better at not real ... -Exactly. Thus the statement that Real life is always better than fantasy is false. It's the always part that is at fault. Therefore your theory fails. -It's not a theory, but a statement.
Warning 12-02-07, 05:54 PM	-Exactly. Thus the statement that Real life is always better than fantasy is false. It's the always part that is at fault. -It's not a theory, but a statement. lol, I still think I am right (I do not know of course), but I don't want to get off topic when you I still agree that Seals would win. Bang bang>Slash slash
Lord Karsus 12-02-07, 06:42 PM	-The point is, you can't include 'always' in a statement unless you can be sure that, no matter what variable, X is always going to wind up the actual answer, instead of Y. Since, as I demonstrated, questions can be worded such that Y is the only correct answer, you can't include 'always'. -Now, for example, let's alter things a bit. Navy SEALs versus...10 Netherese Arcanists. In this case, I'm going to say that the Netherese Arcanists are going to win. Against some Drow, though? No, the SEALs.
Derren S. 12-03-07, 04:13 AM	-Now, for example, let's alter things a bit. Navy SEALs versus...10 Netherese Arcanists. In this case, I'm going to say that the Netherese Arcanists are going to win. Against some Drow, though? No, the SEALs. Are we still talking about lvl 14 drows? Or have you decided that the drows are level 1 warriors? If the drows are lvl 14 and have level appropriate equipment the seals have no chance as even rather simple magic defeats them (Protection from Arrows, Greater Invisibility, Fog clouds,...). Not to mention that the enchanted weapons of the drow are much more powerful than the unenchanted masterwork(?) weapons of the Seals. The same goes for armor.
Stigger 12-03-07, 04:36 AM	Do yourself a favor and just say the SEALs would pwn the Drow no matter what and just humor him... far less :banghead: that way. ;)
Warning 12-03-07, 08:26 AM	Do yourself a favor and just say the SEALs would pwn the Drow no matter what and just humor him... far less :banghead: that way. ;) Do you conceed then?
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 09:02 AM	Do yourself a favor and just say the SEALs would pwn the Drow no matter what and just humor him... far less :banghead: that way. ;) -Can I join you in the :banghead:ing?
Rauric 12-03-07, 09:03 AM	I think the SEALS would win. I also think Warning is #2 on the most annoying poster (troll?) on the FR forums though. Betaextinction has the #1 position locked though. Sorry Warning. ;)
Warning 12-03-07, 09:05 AM	I think the SEALS would win. I also think Warning is #2 on the most annoying poster (troll?) on the FR forums though. Betaextinction has the #1 position locked though. Sorry Warning. ;) Um, thanks....anything I can do to change your opinion? And good job on Seal back up!
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 09:07 AM	I think the SEALS would win. I also think Warning is #2 on the most annoying poster (troll?) on the FR forums though. Betaextinction has the #1 position locked though. Sorry Warning. ;) -Pshh...Yeah, Beta was pretty annoying. Guess he left or something. Haven't seen him around lately. -Should I get out the applications for the new resident wacky person?
Warning 12-03-07, 09:24 AM	-Should I get out the applications for the new resident wacky person? Guess it's better to be "wacky" than hated. Btw, does anyone have the stats in comparision to Jarlaxell's throwing knives compared to a Seals M4?
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 11:24 AM	Guess it's better to be "wacky" than hated. -Yeah, I would think. Btw, does anyone have the stats in comparision to Jarlaxell's throwing knives compared to a Seals M4? -Not sure about any enchantments that he has, but a dagger still only has a base damage of 1d4. Overall, even with enchantments, most daggers aren't very impressive. I consider them "last resort" weapons.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-03-07, 12:21 PM	- I really can't talk in behalf of the Navy S.E.A.Ls but I do train w the army S.F. on a regular basis, I work in Sustatement Brigade Secial Operations (Airborne), and belive me there's no way that a the Drow can take these guys. their amount of training and knowledge is mindbending, intelwise and combat also. regarding the whole ammo issue, cases can be recaped with smoke powder even IF it is less powerful the only difecence would be the max. range of the round (300 meters is the normal range I'll be GUESSING 100 mt. wtch is still about 250 ft i think) and who said that M4 can't be enchanted also, they ARE that resorseful (just something to make you think about :D ) . they are still trained in survival training, using only knives and are highly proficient in hand to hand combat. they have a manual crane thingy to recharge their batteries. I DO agree with the fact that the Drow are trained since child birth pretty much BUT so are the somalies in real life. All that this people know is war, they are armed with AK-47s witch some pros argue that it might be the best rifle in the world (even better than M4s). And in Black Hawk Down (The battle not the movie) the SF were pin down against like 40 to 1 if i'm not mistaking.... Don't get me wrong that was a regretable battle... but the bottom line is that SF were in their turf in far lower number against battlesharp guerrilas (not to mention Infinitly armed) and we got alot more of them than they got us. just my :twocents:
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 12:25 PM	regarding the whole ammo issue, cases can be recaped with smoke powder even IF it is less powerful the only difecence would be the max. range of the round (300 meters is the normal range I'll be GUESSING 100 mt. wtch is still about 250 ft i think). -You know, that's a whole new perspective that none of us ever thought of. And in Black Hawk Down (The battle not the movie) the SF were pin down against like 40 to 1 if i'm not mistaking.... Don't get me wrong that was a regretable battle... but the bottom line is that SF were in their turf in far lower number against battlesharp guerrilas (not to mention Infinitly armed) and we got alot more of them than they got us. just my :twocents: -Well, not to detract anything from those soldiers (I indirectly know someone who fought in Mogadishu), but when it's the world's greatest soldiers against a bunch of thugs, who do you think is going to win? :cool:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-03-07, 12:54 PM	Have you ever used those things...I admitt I haven't personaly but the drow will still have a advantage as those devices have a very limited field of view compared to normal vision. I have and I have shot targets at 300 mt.(I'm not a particularly good shooter btw) besides the fact that they are removable, u can see as far as you can normally see vs the Drow that can only see what 120 ft at best?
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-03-07, 01:06 PM	Against someone who still has their main weapon they are at a big disadvantage (especially as I don't think many seals learn to defend themselves against swords and spears and also don't really learn how to fight against someone in medival armor.) ever worn a I.B.A.(Improved Battle Armor)? belive me they have an idea about fighting with armor:D. i'll give you that they don't train espesifically agains spears but they do armed vs unarmed "melee".
Warning 12-03-07, 01:07 PM	- I really can't talk in behalf of the Navy S.E.A.Ls but I do train w the army S.F. on a regular basis, I work in Sustatement Brigade Secial Operations (Airborne), and belive me there's no way that a the Drow can take these guys. It's about time. Most people who are in the military backing the Drow are grunts. But a primary source of an SF will do in a much more sufficient way to grasp this topic as it should be instead of people who read FR books and DnD and use their bias perspectives with none-military experience.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-03-07, 01:18 PM	*considers vaguely... drow trained possibly since childhood... grown up in that kind of environment and having to be careful even of friends... with physical combat their main profession.... vs. the kind of characters who could refuse to go to Iraq because its too dangerous??? (alright so seals probably wouldn't do that)... but basically just a bunch of people who have almost never killed someone with their bare hands, and would never let themselves gain the kind of fighting mentality the drow have because its just basically evil.... AND with the drow having their swords.* The SEALs are screwed, even if they are topside. I'd probably even give it to the drow(but less casually), if the drow also didn't have weapons and armor. The difference in actual lives and the amount of training they've gone through should leave at least a talented drow better off. Its possible that a low-end untalented bum of a drow soldier would be overcome by a seal though. You have no idea what you are talking about, no profecional soldier will refuse to go to war, that's our job some soldier don't like the idea of fighting for what they belive is an "unecesary" war, but I have NEVER heard a soldier ever "refusing" specially because is too dangerous when in fact this is the war with less casualties we ever had, and lowering. P.S. this was the comment I was answering to on my first thread.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-03-07, 01:22 PM	It's about time. Most people who are in the military backing the Drow are grunts. But a primary source of an SF will do in a much more sufficient way to grasp this topic as it should be instead of people who read FR books and DnD and use their bias perspectives with none-military experience. ;) :ayyyy!: I got this.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-03-07, 02:50 PM	Actually, that globe of darkness would negate the flashbang's visual effects, and lasts longer to boot. Crossbows... yeah, particularly a hand-crossbow, guns definitely outclass them in most respects. Nightvision doesn't exactly work on Faerun, and can run out of batteries. Nor does it work underground unless there's an external lightsource, since it usually works off of amplifying ambient light. So, I'd give that one to the drow's natural vision really. No way a fireball trumps a grenade though... fireball has a larger effective kill radius, far superior range, and if we're speaking realism here, secondary incendiary effects that could possibly cook-off ammunition in their magazines. As to the Lolth < Nuke thing... somehow I doubt most SEALs run around with ntactical uclear devices as a field weapon... ;) As to the batteries for the NVGs i already explain in a previous post, I'll give you the whole NVgs can work in TOTAL darkness but SF always have a alternative for EVERYTHING (like the medic (18 Delta) is also train in explosives (an 18 Charley job) military issues candlelights (They have them on them on all the time and they can also be used to secure "Death Cord") and no they don't have tactical uclear devices. BUT they DO have L.O.Gs (think Bazooka) C4, Death Cord and Claymore mines that can do stuff that that a fire ball can't (like explodig underwater, not that it will make a big influence in the battle )
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-03-07, 03:13 PM	I won't consider Seals "earths finest". They are well trained soldiers, thats all. Those seals would be totally overwhelmed by monsters. Imagine those soldiers meeting a troll. They would have no idea how to kill it. Same with magic, they would have no idea how to deal with it. There will be casualties. And how would they learn the language? I doubt any normal commoner would want to have anything to do with them and forcing commoners to cooperate has the side effect that sooner or later adventurers will show up. And when their ammo runs out, which depending on where they land can be pretty fast, after all soldiers don't tend to carry around huge boxes of ammo, they are really in trouble. No weapons, can't understand the language, no local knowledge. Maybe they can come through as beggars or might resort to stealing/mugging people. I don't think they could be more successful than that. If is alive it can die "shoot that mother ****er". and ALL S.F. (pretty sure S.E.A.L.s too) MUST Speak at least two languages to pass the course. so I GUESS is easier for them to learn an additional one easier than the avreage person.
Stigger 12-03-07, 04:22 PM	So I'm curious as to how exactly a modern automatic weapon is supposed to cycle with such a reduced 'powder load' that Smokepowder would provide. I'm not sure most semi-automatic pistols would properly function if the force of the bullet was reduced too much, since a lot of the pressure generated is required to operate the mechanisms in the first place, much less an assault rifle firing on burst or automatic settings. Recoil force does tend to figure into the operation of most firearms as a rather integral piece of the equation. Warning - as to concession, do I concede that you were right all along and I was foolish to have ever doubted you? No, certainly not, don't be silly. To be honest I don't think you're actually interested in a reasonable debate in the slightest, just in 'winning', so I see little to no point in continuing any discussion with you. But in the interest of reducing my :banghead: levels, I'm just going to adopt a policy of patting you on the head and saying "nice Warning", and then promptly leaving. :P
Sol_Odlanier 12-03-07, 04:45 PM	So I'm curious as to how exactly a modern automatic weapon is supposed to cycle with such a reduced 'powder load' that Smokepowder would provide. I'm not sure most semi-automatic pistols would properly function if the force of the bullet was reduced too much, since a lot of the pressure generated is required to operate the mechanisms in the first place, much less an assault rifle firing on burst or automatic settings. Recoil force does tend to figure into the operation of most firearms as a rather integral piece of the equation. -Hmm point taken and it makes sense however http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000955.html will show you The new weapon that the Navy developed(MX-8) that it uses a new gas system that uses a totally new gas operating system that uses less gas (u can actually see the excess gas "flowing" out of it) among alot of good stuff that ypu'll see in that link. ;)
Sol_Odlanier 12-03-07, 05:00 PM	and I still say that the whole magic weapon thing is wrong, no one here can tell me that in a Thayan enclave thy woulnd't enchant that "comtraption" for the right gold.
Stigger 12-03-07, 05:08 PM	The XM-8 was derived from the H&K OICW program wasn't it, minus the 20mm launcher of course? Still uses the 5.56N round though, and less gas is in comparison to that I'm sure, rather than in comparison to even civilian versions of the cartridge. Keep in mind that its more than just explosive force we're talking about with ammunition propellants, but also the rate and degree which they burn with. Modern propellants are extremely complicated things that are engineered to burn in certain ways, at certain rates, etcetera. I'm doubtful Smokepowder could even make a dent in terms of the amount of propulsive force it can deliver.
Sol_Odlanier 12-03-07, 05:18 PM	-True, True, but then again we don't want to get all that technical about this, I just wanted to state that "it can happen" and we cant really argue this without total knowledge of smokepowder, all those variants are out of our hands. C'mon Stig! Work with me here!!!:cool:
Stigger 12-03-07, 05:24 PM	Technicalities and semanitcs are the bread and butter of debates around here in case you haven't noticed... ;)
Sol_Odlanier 12-03-07, 05:36 PM	:tantrum: FINE! technically no one can establish the "power" of smokepowder but at least I threw a theory out there but you just said:I'm doubtful Smokepowder could even make a dent in terms of the amount of propulsive force it can deliver. I say is good enough game wise to make a round pellet pass thru AC of enemies. What say you?:cool:
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 06:05 PM	...no profecional soldier will refuse to go to war... -It does happen, from time to time. It was most prevalent in Vietnam, when people were forced to fight in a war that they did not necessarily agree with. Now that the Armed Forces are voluntary, the instances of this happening have dropped to almost nil. Offhand, though, I can think of one example- I believe that the soldier was of Asian descent, and was either Muslim, or an Imam chaplain, and refused to report to duty to be deployed to Iraq.
Sol_Odlanier 12-03-07, 06:14 PM	That's why i said PROFETIONAL, I'm pretty sure you remmember my standing about it in that other thread (Thank you for destroying the realms... Ithink). 9 out of 10 I'll back up "My Brothers (or should I say Siblings) in Arms" I mean What my sign says;)
Stigger 12-03-07, 07:50 PM	:tantrum: FINE! technically no one can establish the "power" of smokepowder but at least I threw a theory out there but you just said:I'm doubtful Smokepowder could even make a dent in terms of the amount of propulsive force it can deliver. I say is good enough game wise to make a round pellet pass thru AC of enemies. What say you?:cool: So can crossbow bolts and arrows... sling bullets can as well. The problem with underpowered firearm ammunition is that you may get off that first shot, but the recoil force may well not be enough to completely cycle the weapon and so that first shot is all you're going to get until you clear the spent cartridge from the chamber and cycle through another one manually. Which kinda negates the advantage of a semi-automatic/automatic firearm in the first place. Revolvers would be considerably more practical in that respect really. Personally, I'd much rather have a bow, crossbow, or sling in most respects. At least you can create new ammunition for them without requiring a full chem lab and benchloading set-up.
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 11:18 PM	That's why i said PROFETIONAL, I'm pretty sure you remmember my standing about it in that other thread (Thank you for destroying the realms... Ithink). 9 out of 10 I'll back up "My Brothers (or should I say Siblings) in Arms" I mean What my sign says;) -Good point, good point. At least you can create new ammunition for them without requiring a full chem lab and benchloading set-up. -Ah, you don't need all that. Just Ask Jill Valentine.
Sol_Odlanier 12-04-07, 12:17 AM	-Ah, you don't need all that. Just Ask Jill Valentine. :rimshot: - I agree with you Stig in your weapon choice, but revolvers as you know are not military issue and I'm preatty sure that IF that element stays in Faerun long enough they'll also would learn to use bows and such. The other thing is that they wount be using their weapon in "full-auto" or "Burst" They'll be on "semi" because they wont be facing sush a big element (10 Drow at most?) asumming the all fully equipwhen they get to Faerun they have 7 mags w 30 round each those are 210(?) rounds, each? they wount be running out of ammo anytime soon.
Stigger 12-04-07, 04:10 AM	Were you in the French military, the revolver could very well be military issue... and Manurhin makes a very good weapon with their MR73 .357 magnum revolver, in use with their special forces. I don't even want to hear it about the French military however, since the US wouldn't even exist had it not been for the French army and navy coming to our aid during the Revolutionary War.
Derren S. 12-04-07, 04:25 AM	ALL S.F. (pretty sure S.E.A.L.s too) MUST Speak at least two languages to pass the course. so I GUESS is easier for them to learn an additional one easier than the avreage person. Most (european) non americans speak two languages automatically (their mother language + english). So that is not a big feat. And with all the magic the drows have the seals have no chance no matter how trained they are. The drows cast improved invisibility and the seals are nearly defenseless. Or the drow dominate a seal and turn them against each other. The seals have simply no defense against that and while their weapons are superior to normal mediveal weapons and armor they suck when facing stronger enchanted equipment. And we are talking about seals and not seals+the entire military industrial complex. So no "creating ammo with smokepoweder". You can't create modern bullets in the field, especially not when you have to use a to you unknown and rare magical substance. No matter how many bullets they carry they will run out rather fast when they meet magical enemies (wizards, high level drow), regenerating (trolls) or enemies with high DR (older dragons etc.). and I still say that the whole magic weapon thing is wrong, no one here can tell me that in a Thayan enclave thy woulnd't enchant that "comtraption" for the right gold. 1. How do the seals learn the laguange? 2. How do the seals learn about magical enchantments 3. How do they get enough gold? 4. How do they get into an enclave? 5. How do they prevent the thayan wizard from simply dominating them and sending them to Thay for their technical knowledge to be extracted?
Lord Karsus 12-04-07, 09:56 AM	1. How do the seals learn the laguange? -We've already established the fact that 'Common' is a pidgin language that all peoples can speak and understand. If it weren't the interaction between different denizens of different Planes and Crystal Spheres would be impossible without language-magics. And, they're not. 3. How do they get enough gold? -Barter and trade.
Derren S. 12-04-07, 10:07 AM	-Barter and trade. And what would they trade?
Lord Karsus 12-04-07, 10:16 AM	And what would they trade? -The same thing every other culture has, when first encountering a new society- anything that catches the eye. The Red Wizards of Thay have never seen those foam, form-fitting ear-plugs that are used to supress the sound of a weapon being fired. That might catch their eye. A SEALs particular weapon, or sidearm, might be something that they've never seen before, or of a quality they've never seen before. That might catch their eye. Anything that Red Wizards do not have, or might have access to would/could catch their eye. -A SEAL with some cash on hand might get the Red Wizard wondering what this "United States of America" is, and the best way to conquer/exploit it. Thus begins an invasion of Earth by Red Wizards. :)
Derren S. 12-04-07, 10:23 AM	-The same thing every other culture has, when first encountering a new society- anything that catches the eye. The Red Wizards of Thay have never seen those foam, form-fitting ear-plugs that are used to supress the sound of a weapon being fired. That might catch their eye. A SEALs particular weapon, or sidearm, might be something that they've never seen before, or of a quality they've never seen before. That might catch their eye. Anything that Red Wizards do not have, or might have access to would/could catch their eye. Lets ignore for a moment that most red wizards would simply kill the rather clueless seals and take their stuff I don't think that seals will sell their equipment. Also most people with a lot of money don't need them as they have access to magic which can do the same, not to mention that without knowing what those strange tools from the seals do they won't buy them. For a merchant the M4 will be a very strange looking want of lighting or magic missiles. And a red wizard hardly has uses for an earplug considering that such things make spellcasting harder. -A SEAL with some cash on hand might get the Red Wizard wondering what this "United States of America" is, and the best way to conquer/exploit it. Thus begins an invasion of Earth by Red Wizards. :) Considering how vulnerable and clueless the seals would be this would mean their death as the Red Wizard would simply get some buddies, dominate them and keep the captive for interrogation.
Lord Karsus 12-04-07, 10:40 AM	Lets ignore for a moment that most red wizards would simply kill the rather clueless seals and take their stuff I don't think that seals will sell their equipment. Also most people with a lot of money don't need them as they have access to magic which can do the same, not to mention that without knowing what those strange tools from the seals do they won't buy them. For a merchant the M4 will be a very strange looking want of lighting or magic missiles. And a red wizard hardly has uses for an earplug considering that such things make spellcasting harder. Considering how vulnerable and clueless the seals would be this would mean their death as the Red Wizard would simply get some buddies, dominate them and keep the captive for interrogation. -Derren, you do realize that Red Wizards (most) aren't blundering idiots. They are (most) nefarious villains. Why would a Red Wizard randomly kill a SEAL, or group of SEALs, especially when there is so much to be gained by allowing them to live? Your zealous belief that a group of actual beings would automatically lose to a group of FR beings is clouding your judgement. -As I said, a group of SEALs knocking on the door of some Red Wizard enclave is likely to intrigue them. Who are these strange people? What is all of that strange equipment they are clad in? Where do they come from? How can this chance encounter serve me/us the best? By simply killing, or Dominating the group- which isn't going to be easy, Red Wizard or not- you don't get to discover many of these nuonces. Sure, you might learn where they came from, but you aren't going to learn the intracacies of how people from Earth behave when you're talking to a zombie, which is what a Dominated indiviual more or less is. You're not going to learn that a handshake is a traditional greeting, that in most cultures, age is looked at as a sign of respect, that eye contact, or the lack thereof, is a seen as a sign of one's inner feelings. Continue ad nauseum. -Now, consider that you were somehow lost and/or stranded in a strange, foreign place. Your only belongings on you. Your goal is to survive. You are going to give up your belongings in order to do so. The urge of self-preservation is greater than that of any allegiance. That's why torture works. Eventually, everyone cracks, and their instinct for self-preservation overrides any allegiances they have, or had. -Now, the items that these SEALs have. Are they going to be useful to the Red Wizards? Perhaps- some things definitley would be. But, the most worth of what these SEALs have isn't valued in the dollar. As I alluded to before, the worth these SEALs have things that these Red Wizards do not have, or have probably imagined. Those ear plugs, for instance. Sure, it might make spellcasting more difficult (though, since when has the inability to hear made spellcasting more difficult?). But, who cares? The Red Wizard isn't going to be taking the ear plugs so that he/she can wear them. Ear plugs like that are something not found anywhere else on Abeir-Toril. Interest, in both the traditional sense, and in the business sense, is going to well up in said Red Wizard. What is this thing? What does it do? How can it be replicated, and mass produced, as to make me, and/or other Red Wizards money? Same goes with kevlar vests, arms and sidearms, MREs, and whatever else the group of SEALs has on them.
Derren S. 12-04-07, 10:47 AM	-Derren, you do realize that Red Wizards (most) aren't blundering idiots. They are (most) nefarious villains. Why would a Red Wizard randomly kill a SEAL, or group of SEALs, especially when there is so much to be gained by allowing them to live? Your zealous belief that a group of actual beings would automatically lose to a group of FR beings is clouding your judgement. Only to a group of mid level or higher spellcasting FR beings. -As I said, a group of SEALs knocking on the door of some Red Wizard enclave is likely to intrigue them. Who are these strange people? What is all of that strange equipment they are clad in? Where do they come from? How can this chance encounter serve me/us the best? By simply killing, or Dominating the group- which isn't going to be easy, Red Wizard or not- you don't get to discover many of these nuonces. Sure, you might learn where they came from, but you aren't going to learn the intracacies of how people from Earth behave when you're talking to a zombie, which is what a Dominated indiviual more or less is. You're not going to learn that a handshake is a traditional greeting, that in most cultures, age is looked at as a sign of respect, that eye contact, or the lack thereof, is a seen as a sign of one's inner feelings. Continue ad nauseum. Where do you get the restriction of dominate from? Also once you have captured them there are other ways to gain information like Charm spells, detect thoughts, normal torture or for the patient ones speak with death. The Red Wizard certainly don't want that those strangers walk around and telling others about their technology, planet, etc. The fewer people kow of something the bigger the advantage is this knowledge gives you. -Now, consider that you were somehow lost and/or stranded in a strange, foreign place. Your only belongings on you. Your goal is to survive. You are going to give up your belongings in order to do so. The urge of self-preservation is greater than that of any allegiance. That's why torture works. Eventually, everyone cracks, and their instinct for self-preservation overrides any allegiances they have, or had. And once the seals sold their weapons, what then? They do not have the training to use mediveal weapons to their full effects. -Now, the items that these SEALs have. Are they going to be useful to the Red Wizards? Perhaps- some things definitley would be. But, the most worth of what these SEALs have isn't valued in the dollar. As I alluded to before, the worth these SEALs have things that these Red Wizards do not have, or have probably imagined. Those ear plugs, for instance. Sure, it might make spellcasting more difficult (though, since when has the inability to hear made spellcasting more difficult?). But, who cares? The Red Wizard isn't going to be taking the ear plugs so that he/she can wear them. Ear plugs like that are something not found anywhere else on Abeir-Toril. Interest, in both the traditional sense, and in the business sense, is going to well up in said Red Wizard. What is this thing? What does it do? How can it be replicated, and mass produced, as to make me, and/or other Red Wizards money? Same goes with kevlar vests, arms and sidearms, MREs, and whatever else the group of SEALs has on them. Deafness gives 20% spellcasting failure. And you still didn't answer the question why the Red Wizards wouldn't simply kill/capture the seals and take their stuff and by this ensure that they are the only ones who know about this things instead of buying it and let the Seals go so that they can sell their secrets to other organizations? Also, why would Red Wizards want to produce better non magical equipment? As a highly magical nations they certainly don't want that such things spread as they would loose a bit of their advantage if they do. And I think I have seen earplugs somewhere in a D&D book. So those things certainly are not unknown. -We've already established the fact that 'Common' is a pidgin language that all peoples can speak and understand. If it weren't the interaction between different denizens of different Planes and Crystal Spheres would be impossible without language-magics. And, they're not. Who is "we"? You and another poster who ignore the encounter rules the OP made and insist that Seals somehow defy all rules set by D&D and D20 Modern and are able to outperform clearly superior magical equipment and spells itself? The language of the planes is known in D&D worlds and everyone can learn them. So planar communication does not always require magic. (Please answer in Common or Aquan).
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-04-07, 10:53 AM	1. How do the seals learn the laguange? Same way I learned english Asimilating ;) 2. How do the seals learn about magical enchantments? How will They not? Pretty much the same moment they encounter Any kind of civilization, whether it is a Amn or Sembia or A freaking farmer being help by a druid or cleric there's Virtually nowhere in Faerun that you can go where there's "no magic". 3. How do they get enough gold? You obviously don't know what these people do, let me try to explain. Now like I said I don't know much of SEAL but SF they are more spies than anything else. this will be a classic SF mission: Go to X country bein opresed by Y goverment, Meet With Z Guerrilla/Freedom Fighters (that have a VERY limited resourses), Train them, expand their resouses (weapons, ammo and money by raiding the Y gov.) until they can sustain themselfs, Making the Freedom fighters a Official Fighting force reconiceble by the UN. THEN they come back home. THATs what they do. and you are telling me that they wont, know about magic, or they can figure out a way to find funds (RAIDS)? Specially when there's no Geneva Convention to hold them back Not that they are ever over the radar...). 4. How do they get into an enclave? Now I might be wrong on this but IMO Thayan enclaves are the equivalent of W-l-Mart of the realms, there's one in every corner and money speaks 5. How do they prevent the thayan wizard from simply dominating them and sending them to Thay for their technical knowledge to be extracted? Why wounld a wizard know that they are "planewalkers" or a lack of a better term? I've know caucasian SF get into Iraqui town and do what they went to do (REcon) and get out by looking like and Iraquis, they do stand out here though since they are the only mofos in ACUs (Army Combat Uniforn) with beards :) and it looks bad for buisness taking your clients as slaves, You know trust and all that good stuff.
Lord Karsus 12-04-07, 11:01 AM	They do not have the training to use mediveal weapons to their full effects. -Why do they need to use weapons in the first place? And, be that as it may, everyone is proficient with simple weapons. And you still didn't answer the question why the Red Wizards wouldn't simply kill/capture the seals and take their stuff and by this ensure that they are the only ones who know about this things instead of buying it and let the Seals go so that they can sell their secrets to other organizations? -My entire response above did just that. Read again. Also, why would Red Wizards want to produce better non magical equipment? As a highly magical nations they certainly don't want that such things spread as they would loose a bit of their advantage if they do. -Who said it would have to be non-magical, or even produced? That you know how something works or is made doesn't mean that you have to produce it. Knowledge is power. And I think I have seen earplugs somewhere in a D&D book. So those things certainly are not unknown. -Foam, self-forming earplogs are unknown, however. Who is "we"? You and another poster who ignore the encounter rules the OP made and insist that Seals somehow defy all rules set by D&D and D20 Modern and are able to outperform clearly superior magical equipment and spells itself? -I'm adhering all the rules, both D&D and d20. The language of the planes is known in D&D worlds and everyone can learn them. So planar communication does not always require magic. (Please answer in Common or Aquan). -Yes, that is what I said- that "language of the planes" is Common. You were the one who was insisting otherwise. :rolleyes:
Derren S. 12-04-07, 11:02 AM	1. How do the seals learn the laguange? Same way I learned english Asimilating ;) Without any form of georgraphical, cultural or magical knowledge assimilating won't happen easily. 2. How do the seals learn about magical enchantments? How will They not? Pretty much the same moment they encounter Any kind of civilization, whether it is a Amn or Sembia or A freaking farmer being help by a druid or cleric there's Virtually nowhere in Faerun that you can go where there's "no magic". Knowing about magic doesn't mean that you know that you can enchant your weapons and how much that will cost (or that you can even buy that.). That reminds me of something, are the Seals weapons Masterwork? I think not, they are probably standard issue M$s right from the factory. So no enchanting. 3. How do they get enough gold? You obviously don't know what these people do, let me try to explain. Now like I said I don't know much of SEAL but SF they are more spies than anything else. this will be a classic SF mission: Go to X country bein opresed by Y goverment, Meet With Z Guerrilla/Freedom Fighters (that have a VERY limited resourses), Train them, expand their resouses (weapons, ammo and money by raiding the Y gov.) until they can sustain themselfs, Making the Freedom fighters a Official Fighting force reconiceble by the UN. THEN they come back home. THATs what they do. and you are telling me that they wont, know about magic, or they can figure out a way to find funds (RAIDS)? Specially when there's no Geneva Convention to hold them back Not that they are ever over the radar...). Considering that they can't offer any form of weapons, ammo or money and that they can't offer much valuable training this approach won't get them anywhere. As for doing raids, as soon as some high raking adventurers start looking for them they are as good as death as they have no defense against magic. 4. How do they get into an enclave? Now I might be wrong on this but IMO Thayan enclaves are the equivalent of W-l-Mart of the realms, there's one in every corner and money speaks Only when you have a lot of money, something the Seals will hardly be a ble to get. With their limited ammo reserves they can't really be well paid mercenaries/adventurers. When the ammo runs out they have to start again from nearly the bottom. 5. How do they prevent the thayan wizard from simply dominating them and sending them to Thay for their technical knowledge to be extracted? Why wounld a wizard know that they are "planewalkers" or a lack of a better term? I've know caucasian SF get into Iraqui town and do what they went to do (REcon) and get out by looking like and Iraquis, they do stand out here though since they are the only mofos in ACUs (Army Combat Uniforn) with beards :) and it looks bad for buisness taking your clients as slaves, You know trust and all that good stuff. As soon as the Seals bring one of their real world gadegts the wizard will know that something is wrong. But the wizard could also simply steal it. Its not as if enchanting is a fast process. And red wizards and trust? Thats a good one. When a red wizard can get an advantage he will take that opportunity no matter if his PR suffers for that. -Why do they need to use weapons in the first place? And, be that as it may, everyone is proficient with simple weapons. Commoners might disagree. But I am not completely familiar with D20 moderns proficient rules. And even if they are proficient with simple weapons, most of the feats of the Seals have are geared towards guns (weapons specialization and similar feats). Without guns they are at a disadvantage against someone who spend his feats to use mediveal weapons. -I'm adhering all the rules, both D&D and d20. But not to the rules the OP made (Drow being lvl 14) At lest you constantly ignored it before. -Yes, that is what I said- that "language of the planes" is Common. You were the one who was insisting otherwise. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] Ok, please show me where the Seals statblock includes "Common".
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-04-07, 11:31 AM	Without any form of georgraphical, cultural or magical knowledge assimilating won't happen easily. I would know, probably better than you. Knowing about magic doesn't mean that you know that you can enchant your weapons and how much that will cost (or that you can even buy that.). Good point, I GUESS they'll can figure it you after the first raid. That reminds me of something, are the Seals weapons Masterwork? I think not, they are probably standard issue M$s right from the factory. So no enchanting. You see that's the difference between me and you, You GUESS, I KNOW, for training purposes the use freaking junk. For actual mission they have THE BEST. custom handgrips, scope, laser sights You name it, specially since has been more relaxed with the whole "If is not issue to you , you can't use it" thing Only when you have a lot of money, something the Seals will hardly be a ble to get. With their limited ammo reserves they can't really be well paid mercenaries/adventurers. When the ammo runs out they have to start again from nearly the bottom. You obviously didn't understoob my post or you are in denial, These guys MAKE MONEY/ resouses is not like they go to country X with money (witch is supid cuz the currency in Xcountry will be unusible when they kick Y gov. out) they have tactics for this...
Derren S. 12-04-07, 11:39 AM	Knowing about magic doesn't mean that you know that you can enchant your weapons and how much that will cost (or that you can even buy that.). Good point, I GUESS they'll can figure it you after the first raid. How and why? Without the identify spell they might not even know that the enemy had magical weapons/armor. And just seeing them doesn't mean that they will know that they can enchant their weapons. That reminds me of something, are the Seals weapons Masterwork? I think not, they are probably standard issue M$s right from the factory. So no enchanting. You see that's the difference between me and you, You GUESS, I KNOW, for training purposes the use freaking junk. For actual mission they have THE BEST. custom handgrips, scope, laser sights You name it, specially since has been more relaxed with the whole "If is not issue to you , you can't use it" thing I guess that would count as masterwork. Only when you have a lot of money, something the Seals will hardly be a ble to get. With their limited ammo reserves they can't really be well paid mercenaries/adventurers. When the ammo runs out they have to start again from nearly the bottom. You obviously didn't understoob my post or you are in denial, These guys MAKE MONEY/ resouses is not like they go to country X with money (witch is supid cuz the currency in Xcountry will be unusible when they kick Y gov. out) they have tactics for this... Except that most of their tactics do not work in FR. And how would they even know where to work/find such "freedom fighters"? The Seals will hardly know the political and geographical situation of the FR and by the time they figured it out their ammo might be long gone when they happen to run into a stronger monster or a monster resistant to nonmagical bullets.
Lord Karsus 12-04-07, 12:04 PM	Without guns they are at a disadvantage against someone who spend his feats to use mediveal weapons. -That's fine, but again, why are we randomly fighting random people here? But not to the rules the OP made (Drow being lvl 14) At lest you constantly ignored it before. -The theoretical situation has changed multiple times. Case in point, now we're talking about SEALs meeting up with Red Wizards. Ok, please show me where the Seals statblock includes "Common". -Being a SEAL isn't a race. It's a profession, and I would guess in a game setting, a PrC, or something like that. Now, all SEALs are Human. Humans on Earth speak a variety of languages. As you yourself said, "The language of the planes is known in D&D worlds and everyone can learn them." Thus, since Earth is a D&D World we can speak Common, as it is a pidgin language composed of phrases and words borrowed from all over the multiverse. The people of Sigil, for instance, speak a form of Common that is surprisingly similar to Victorian English. As this dialect of Common is understandable by Faerûnians, Earthlings can communicate with Faerûnians.
Derren S. 12-04-07, 12:16 PM	-That's fine, but again, why are we randomly fighting random people here? You know that Seals vs. Drow scenario? You remember? -The theoretical situation has changed multiple times. Case in point, now we're talking about SEALs meeting up with Red Wizards. the theoretical scenario has expanded to explain better how the Seals vs. Drow scenario would develop. At least that is still the "goal" for this threat to me. If you have a completely independent scenario in mind then post it. -Being a SEAL isn't a race. It's a profession, and I would guess in a game setting, a PrC, or something like that. Now, all SEALs are Human. Humans on Earth speak a variety of languages. As you yourself said, "The language of the planes is known in D&D worlds and everyone can learn them." Thus, since Earth is a D&D World we can speak Common, as it is a pidgin language composed of phrases and words borrowed from all over the multiverse. The people of Sigil, for instance, speak a form of Common that is surprisingly similar to Victorian English. As this dialect of Common is understandable by Faerûnians, Earthlings can communicate with Faerûnians. Earth is not a D&D world, its a D20 Modern one. And "Common" is not a language option in it. That means D20 Modern Characters like those Seals can't speak or read/write Common nor any other language used in D&D.
Warning 12-04-07, 12:59 PM	You know that Seals vs. Drow scenario? You remember? Yes, and I remember your doubt in the Drow abilities. Every time it would seem the Seals have the advantage, "ah but that can't happen because FR universe doesn't chemically allow it". Ok...I guess we might as well dewclaw a tiger, loosen his fangs,hang it upside down from a rope, let me stand behind it so I'm facing it's back, give me all my human tool advantages such as guns. And I can safely say that I will have the better chance of winning. You can't seem to let a even battle emerge. You are looking for any loophole that the drow can get their hands on. the theoretical scenario has expanded to explain better how the Seals vs. Drow scenario would develop. At least that is still the "goal" for this threat to me. If you have a completely independent scenario in mind then post it. A neutral universe setting where as to all chemically possibilities of both realm spaces are in effect. Earth is not a D&D world, its a D20 Modern one. And "Common" is not a language option in it. That means D20 Modern Characters like those Seals can't speak or read/write Common nor any other language used in D&D. So in your logic, if the Drow came to our world, they would be screwed in terms of adapting. Also, Seals are not even existent in FR, so with your contraindicating perspective, this topic is not even debatable. So I would assume one trying not to be bias such as yourself would learn to overlook such detail that would only out rule the general discussion as a whole.
Lord Karsus 12-04-07, 02:16 PM	You know that Seals vs. Drow scenario? You remember? -We're discussing SEALs and Red Wizards right now. Earth is not a D&D world, its a D20 Modern one. And "Common" is not a language option in it. That means D20 Modern Characters like those Seals can't speak or read/write Common nor any other language used in D&D. -Sure it is. Elminster came from Abeir-Toril to Earth, to speak with Ed Greenwood about all the going-ons in Faerûn, remember? And, all those portals that used to exist in our world, that lead to the Realms? Remember them?
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-04-07, 02:52 PM	How and why? Without the identify spell they might not even know that the enemy had magical weapons/armor. And just seeing them doesn't mean that they will know that they can enchant their weapons. "Why" ? to enchance their combat capability...? Just in case they encounter, I don't know DROWS!:) and "How"? Well I'll admit that I'm under the assumption that The "element" in question has some time to adapt (since you know you ARE trying to take away their resorses (weapons and eletronics). I guess that would count as masterwork.:D YES! I'm Not talking to a dummy that doesn't hear reason. (now to explain myself better):plotting: Except that most of their tactics do not work in FR. And how would they even know where to work/find such "freedom fighters"? The Seals will hardly know the political and geographical situation of the FR and by the time they figured it out their ammo might be long gone when they happen to run into a stronger monster or a monster resistant to nonmagical bullets. Why would you say their tactics would not work? as far as I know Ambush work in Faerun as it does Recon(as in spying), Demolition(As in blowing a bridge). I'm pretty sure that if you take 4 moon elves and have them "clear" a room with bows it will be the same tactic. And how would they even know where to work/find such "freedom fighters"? Here is where I lost you I think, what I meant by that is that they Produce resources where to the avrege person would be really Fukking hard to find.and this is how: They get into a place with no money, now assuming that they are in a relative safe area they will set a camp, make a parameter then explore and map the area, then check te resources they have (for food ,water,shelter,Intel, ect.) maybe eventually finding a road and/or village? now they wount go like "Hey there's some houses over, there let's go!" they will study the road /village until is safe to get near/interact, whatever, by then they can fugure out at the very least that "there are not in Kansas anymore". they will probably aprouch w/o their weapons (having a sniper in a safe distance). making first contac EVENTUALLY learning language and culture(and the existence of magic?). Can this scenario be SO farfetched for you? Is fair to say that I don't mind at all for you to disagree with me. What I DO mind is for you to disagree with me because you couldn't grasp what I was saying (witch I blame my english impareness for that).:(
Stigger 12-04-07, 04:37 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure that if we're talking about SEALs, they probably wouldn't know the tactics all that well in the first place, so they would be kinda screwed, although the weapons would be the best they could get their hands on from the SOCOM stores. Now if this was US Army Special Forces, then I'd say Ody was pretty-much dead-on. Except on the weapon thing possibly, depending on what their original mission was. Were it a foreign aid deployment, I doubt the weapons would be much more than plain-vanilla versions so as not to create an inferiority complex in their hosts. A pure combat mission, yeah, they're gonna have the best weapons in the SOCOM inventory to draw from, so... like most of this debate, it depends. Though I have to admit, I find that Red Wizard/Currency idea of yours intriguing LK... might have to work on that one. Otherwise, this is a somewhat pointless debate for one very good reason... there is no set scenario to go by. What are the various sides carrying, and not carrying? What is the terrain like with lines of sight, elevations, vegetation, obstructing features, etcetera? Where are both sides positioned, not only in relation to each other, but in relation to the terrain? Are both sides aware of the other's presence and at least general location? From that you can start to determine who has a terrain advantage, how that advantage can be negated with maneuvering, and all sorts of other things that can help us model a battle... without that minimum of information, its kinda hard to do anything but engage in pointless arguement that really can't have a resolution.
Lord Karsus 12-04-07, 05:08 PM	Though I have to admit, I find that Red Wizard/Currency idea of yours intriguing LK... might have to work on that one. -Illuminati versus Red Wizards. Or, Free Masons, or Jewish Bankers, depending on who you think/want to be secretly ruling the world alreeady. Otherwise, this is a somewhat pointless debate for one very good reason... there is no set scenario to go by. -I've been lost for a while now. ;)
Warning 12-04-07, 06:18 PM	Otherwise, this is a somewhat pointless debate for one very good reason... there is no set scenario to go by. Ok: Scenario 1:Seals in the FR realms world, I'd say that homefield advantage would give the Drow the win, considering electronics do not work in their universe. And deities can make an apperance to enhance their followers. (Such as Lolth) Scenario 2:The Drow are in our world. I'd say that once again, homefeild advantage rules the outcome. Calling in for extra supplies drop offs from supply planes. Getting vehicle support. Magic does not exist. Electronics are in full play. Scenario 3: Seals and Drow in a neutral universe. They have to rely on only themselves. No Lolth...No direct intelligence from HQ. But magic works and so does electronics. It would be entertaining and debatable. This is the scenario we should really be working on.
TheBlackMephisto 12-04-07, 07:00 PM	This is my first post on this site. I would like to add to this by saying that, regardless of what the D20 rules state. A drow would horribly murder a navy SEAL. The SEAL is a trained killing machine, but he hasn't been at it for 500 years...
Lord Karsus 12-04-07, 07:12 PM	This is my first post on this site. -A lot of those on this thread. The SEAL is a trained killing machine, but he hasn't been at it for 500 years... -Neither has the individual Drow.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-04-07, 07:13 PM	-A lot of those on this thread. Yes indeed...
Stigger 12-04-07, 08:36 PM	Ok: Scenario 1:Seals in the FR realms world, I'd say that homefield advantage would give the Drow the win, considering electronics do not work in their universe. And deities can make an apperance to enhance their followers. (Such as Lolth) Scenario 2:The Drow are in our world. I'd say that once again, homefeild advantage rules the outcome. Calling in for extra supplies drop offs from supply planes. Getting vehicle support. Magic does not exist. Electronics are in full play. Scenario 3: Seals and Drow in a neutral universe. They have to rely on only themselves. No Lolth...No direct intelligence from HQ. But magic works and so does electronics. It would be entertaining and debatable. This is the scenario we should really be working on. Still tells us nothing about an actual scenario, only the most vague and open-ended of situations. Does the encounter occur underground, in a forest, in a desert, what? Even beyond that is the topography beyond terrain type. Water? Natural hazards? Time of day? Light and visibility conditions, ie Fog? What are each side carrying in the way of weaponry or equipment? There's just too much left unanswered to say much of anything about those scenarios of yours. And yes, there are a lot of those first time posters around here for some reason. Hello and welcome oh writer in blue. :)
Kail 12-04-07, 10:40 PM	This is my first time posting here....~looks left, looks right~..on this page? Since the game mechanics can have a much to do with this outcome as setting, why not stat out a couple of NPCs in each rules set. SEALs and Drow in DnD only rules/classes. Same set in D20. Then, someone with knowledge in each system can run the numbers. If you want to know the out comes. D20 rules will likely favor the SEALs in their equipment/feat selection being more supported. DnD will, of course, slant toward Drow. LK, you can give up the language point with Darren S. He's not going to concead it regardless of Realms lore/DnD precidence on the matter. I presented the idea of the team surviving a year to have time to addapt, and he shot that down by dismissing the set up enterly. A point of contention on the SEAL weapons training vs. Drow/FR training. Most of the S,O. types have a solid base of hand-to-hand. With the concept of facing someone who might pull a concealed gun or knife on you so end it quickly. The armed components are often draw from Arnis/Kali/Silat forms of combat with work with club, dagger and short sword style weapons/tactics. Translation into those weapons and then perhaps into other things would happen assuming they survive the first encounter. While magic would be surprising, the likely hood that SEALs fold, is very low. Stay steady, stay on target, adapt, over come and survive is the way they operate. Heck, for shock factor, hand grenades and firearms would come as a shock to the FR folks too. Mental domination of the team would be a touch tougher, I would think, than a lot of DnD fighters. MY builds on a lot of SF/SEAL/SAS types would include the equivalent of Iron Will Feats to fit the role regardless of the usefulness. Others may have a different view of how to build out the S.O. types though. A lot of it comes down to how they NPCs are built and the conditions they are introduced into. That is going to make the difference. Kail
Lord Karsus 12-04-07, 11:32 PM	LK, you can give up the language point with Darren S. He's not going to concead it regardless of Realms lore/DnD precidence on the matter. -Yeah, I already gave up on it... While magic would be surprising, the likely hood that SEALs fold, is very low. -Well, since we're playing by the rules, magic isn't a factor. The SEALs are facing off against a bunch of Fighters.
Stigger 12-05-07, 01:48 AM	SEAL's likely have at least 1 member with a fire support weapon, so I see no problem with giving whoever they face at least one spellcaster.
Lord Karsus 12-05-07, 02:19 AM	SEAL's likely have at least 1 member with a fire support weapon, so I see no problem with giving whoever they face at least one spellcaster. -Well, since we need to be so beholden to the original statistics provided, it's only one Drow Fighter against one SEAL. :rolleyes:
Warning 12-05-07, 04:15 AM	SEAL's likely have at least 1 member with a fire support weapon, so I see no problem with giving whoever they face at least one spellcaster. This is my first post Let's see, speech....some hand motions....concentration of the mind...some mana...coordination with enemies movements...2 seconds of fire ball flight. Oh wait...all the Seal had to do was squeeze the trigger. There's more? The Drow might miss and have to re-cast that painful process while with another split second from a M4, more bullets are already in motion? Sounds like a massacre 1 on 1.
Warning 12-05-07, 04:17 AM	Arrg...hate how slow this site can be...double posted...apologies in advance. If I can erase this please tell me the steps.
Derren S. 12-05-07, 04:35 AM	I won't flood my post with quotes and instead simply summarize my answers. Warning: I always worked under the assumption that the seals could use most of teir equipment. If not this debate is even more pointless then it is now. Your scenarios: 1: Drow win 2: Seals win 3. Seals win at low level, Drow win at mid-high level as magic is simply better than electronics. (Magic scales with level, electronics always does the same thing). And the seals have simply no defense against magic (see invisibility, magical weapons to pierce protection from arrows/Ghostform) and enchanted weapons can match the raw power of guns. Fire Support vs. Wizards: Use D&D rules. Only one readied attack against spellcasting. And when the wizard casts invisibility all is over. Ody: That scenario is highly unlikely because of monsters. Setting up a safe camp away from civilization is quite hard in D&D and depending on which monster they meet the seals can be killed quite fast. Can your scenario happen? Yes, but I don't think its likely. Imo the seals are more likely to end up as beggars in a bigger city than doing this form of assimilation. Karsus: Ok, Red Wizards vs, Drow for you then. Combat or social encounter and what do the seals have learned so far. language: That is no proof. By the rules D&D people speakcommon, D20 Modern people speak something else. Those two languages are not compatible -> Seals can't understand common. And Elminster is a high level wizard. He has access to the Tongues spell. Kali: NPC skeletons had been made by the OP, but Karsus constantly ignores them because according to this skeletons the drow are level 14 which means the Seals would loose. Something he is not willing to accept. And with a Willsave of only +6 mental domination would be quite easy. And in a world where normal looking sticks shoot lightning bolts and people can throw fireballs which are much more destructive than hand grenades the "shock" would be minimal. Don't forget that less sophisticated firearms already exist in FR too. If someone will be shocked its the Seals.
Stigger 12-05-07, 07:01 AM	This is my first post Let's see, speech....some hand motions....concentration of the mind...some mana...coordination with enemies movements...2 seconds of fire ball flight. Oh wait...all the Seal had to do was squeeze the trigger. There's more? The Drow might miss and have to re-cast that painful process while with another split second from a M4, more bullets are already in motion? Sounds like a massacre 1 on 1. Right... a trained and disciplined soldier is gonna shoot a guy for saying some weird stuff and wiggling his fingers... the spellcaster pretty much says non-threat unless he's weilding a weapon, so you move on to the next target. Of course if he does miss, he's gonna be swiss cheese in the next few seconds... Part of that SF training is rapid identification of targets and threat assessment, rules of engagement, etcetera and so forth. At worst the spellcaster is gonna look like a wacko who you might need to knock out, but who's otherwise probably harmless. Now if the SEALs are engaged in a fight and they see the guy casting, sure, there's a clear and present danger so shoot now and sort it out later would be the likely protocol followed, but if its a cold meeting, they might raise a weapon, but aren't going to shoot until the caster presents themselves as a threat.
Lord Karsus 12-05-07, 08:52 AM	Karsus: Ok, Red Wizards vs, Drow for you then. Combat or social encounter and what do the seals have learned so far. language: That is no proof. By the rules D&D people speakcommon, D20 Modern people speak something else. Those two languages are not compatible -> Seals can't understand common. And Elminster is a high level wizard. He has access to the Tongues spell. -Kail, you're right...:rolleyes: Kali: NPC skeletons had been made by the OP, but Karsus constantly ignores them because according to this skeletons the drow are level 14 which means the Seals would loose. Something he is not willing to accept. And with a Willsave of only +6 mental domination would be quite easy. -Skeletons? What Skeletons? And, what mental Domination? As per the OP, we have a Navy SEAL and a Drow Fighter. Last time I checked, Fighters couldn't summon skeletons, or dominate people.
GothicDan 12-05-07, 08:58 AM	My 300th level Netherese Arcanist Imaskari High Mage wins.
Lord Karsus 12-05-07, 09:04 AM	My 300th level Netherese Arcanist Imaskari High Mage wins. -Oh well...Now this thread is dead. Now what?
GothicDan 12-05-07, 09:07 AM	It's dead like my Latin test. I pwned that mofo so hard it'll never see the light of day again.
Derren S. 12-05-07, 09:41 AM	-Skeletons? What Skeletons? And, what mental Domination? As per the OP, we have a Navy SEAL and a Drow Fighter. Last time I checked, Fighters couldn't summon skeletons, or dominate people. Skeleton can mean more then a construct out of bones. A other meaning also means something like a "shell". And look, the first post contains such a shell of a drow fighter which says what level he is and what ability he has. Why it is a shell/skeleton? because only the basic attributes are given. Things like feats, skills and equipment are missing and have to be added. But so far you always ignored the existed of this Drow fighter build and instead argued that the drows are not level 14 which they clearly are. PS: The last time I checked we were now talking about Seals vs. Red Wizards (by your request) and they can dominate just fine. As you are unwilling to use rules for this discussion (or rather only use rules which support your point and ignore rules which are against it like the 14th level drow and the nonexistance of "Common" in the D20 Modern rules) I have to agree that this thread is dead.
Lord Karsus 12-05-07, 10:21 AM	It's dead like my Latin test. I pwned that mofo so hard it'll never see the light of day again. -I can't help but think that you've done the world a favor. -BTW, I just figured out about that ignore feature. That's pretty cool. I miss Xun...
Warning 12-05-07, 12:37 PM	Right... a trained and disciplined soldier is gonna shoot a guy for saying some weird stuff and wiggling his fingers... the spellcaster pretty much says non-threat unless he's weilding a weapon, so you move on to the next target. Of course if he does miss, he's gonna be swiss cheese in the next few seconds... Um? I was talking about if they were engaged into a 1 vs 1 battle based on your plot stigger. What? Are we debating their discussions now too?
Warning 12-05-07, 01:18 PM	PS: The last time I checked we were now talking about Seals vs. Red Wizards (by your request) and they can dominate just fine. According to you, no one from FR universe can lose.
Mifelhagen 12-05-07, 01:26 PM	Just wanted to point something out: Smokepowder isn't magical in nature. its natural. As such, it would be relatively easy for people who already know how to make normal gun powder. And no, seals couldn't beat red wizzies if the red wizzies have been scrying on them for a length of time.
Warning 12-05-07, 01:40 PM	Just wanted to point something out: Smokepowder isn't magical in nature. its natural. As such, it would be relatively easy for people who already know how to make normal gun powder. And no, seals couldn't beat red wizzies if the red wizzies have been scrying on them for a length of time. Not if they were in our world. Where magic does not exist. Wizards rely on magic. Where Drow at least can use melee weapons efficiently. Once again though, you give FR universe the advantage. I love how Bias this forum can be:rofl:
GothicDan 12-05-07, 01:47 PM	In the D&D universe, magic DOES work on Earth. How do you think Elminster utilizes portals to it?
Warning 12-05-07, 01:50 PM	In the D&D universe, magic DOES work on Earth. How do you think Elminster utilizes portals to it? But Seals are not from the DnD universe, thus this concept topic.
Stigger 12-05-07, 03:59 PM	No reason why SEALs shouldn't be from the D&D universe, if we're going by the notion that Elminster uses gates/portals to come and talk to Ed of the Greenwood. ;) As to my 'plot', there was nothing from it addressed... terrain, climate, time of day, etcetera, so no, you weren't addressing it.
Warning 12-05-07, 04:14 PM	No reason why SEALs shouldn't be from the D&D universe, if we're going by the notion that Elminster uses gates/portals to come and talk to Ed of the Greenwood. ;) As to my 'plot', there was nothing from it addressed... terrain, climate, time of day, etcetera, so no, you weren't addressing it. Well, as RAS and many other posters have mentioned, stats and actual realistic battle settings, have very different outcomes. IMO, statistically, Drow would win, in a debate of actual events, Seals would win.
Stigger 12-05-07, 04:18 PM	Every battle is unique, and there's a lot more to it than weaponry. Honestly, simply based on unit cohesion and discipline under fire, the SEALs are always going to have an advantage in a straight up fight, but magic is a tremendous force multiplier, so is also a deciding factor if the drow are able to call upon it. About the only thing we can say with any certainty is that 'it depends'.
TheBlackMephisto 12-05-07, 04:29 PM	I thought you understood me. I was implying that the SEAL and the Drow were going hand to hand. Not M4 to Fireball. If the Seal keep his weapon in this scenario, of course it's gonna be murder. But, if you level the playing fields, the Drow will easily kill a SEAL. WITHOUT the aid of magic if said Drow has any sword/knife/hand to hand skills. Seeing as how the Drow in this situation has been at the game far longer than the male human with the combat knife... Otherwise, I think both camps in this thread have stalemated one another with their arguments. If the Drow and the SEALS kept ALL of their "powers", it would really be a roll of the dice then...
Warning 12-05-07, 04:36 PM	Seeing as how the Drow in this situation has been at the game far longer than the male human with the combat knife... Yes but we have discussed before that a human is faster at learning than a Drow so to speak. Ever wonder how a human wizard 50 years old is as powerful as a elf 700 years old? I mean, look what happens when a human lives that long...Elmenster?
TheBlackMephisto 12-05-07, 04:42 PM	I have read many of the Forgotten Realms books. As I am sure many of you have. Elminster is a special case, and not really a good example. (although I do love the old man. ;-) If you have read ANY of R.A. Salvatores works, you'll know how easily a drow warrior or mage can so very easily kill/destroy/pwn any human, or other non dark elf... I mean hell man, Pit Feinds show the Drow respect! So give me a break will ya! ;-)
Warning 12-05-07, 04:44 PM	I have read many of the Forgotten Realms books. As I am sure many of you have. Elminster is a special case, and not really a good example. (although I do love the old man. ;-) If you have read ANY of R.A. Salvatores works, you'll know how easily a drow warrior or mage can so very easily kill/destroy/pwn any human, or other non dark elf... I mean hell man, Pit Feinds show the Drow respect! So give me a break will ya! ;-) ACTUALLY! RAS books is a perfect example of my point. How old is Drizzt and how old is Artemis? Rivals?
Stigger 12-05-07, 04:50 PM	I still blame that on artificial gimping of the long lived races so that humans wouldn't be utterly crap... humanocentricity at its ugliest.
Warning 12-05-07, 04:54 PM	I still blame that on artificial gimping of the long lived races so that humans wouldn't be utterly crap... humanocentricity at its ugliest. Well, all fantasy novels are usually based off humanoids with upgrades...Examples: Elves are humans that live longer with pointy ears and more agile. Orcs are humans with a great amount of strength. Dwarfs are humans that live longer and are shorter. I could really go on with this, but do you see my point? So in reality, we are supreme and only have concepts of how to better ourselves.
Stigger 12-05-07, 04:58 PM	I see your point, but I don't agree with it. Humans aren't really designed all that well as a species, but we have intelligence and oppossable thumbs, so that's made us number one on this planet. But it doesn't mean there aren't 'superior' species out there... it just means we haven't met them yet.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-05-07, 05:17 PM	Seeing as how the Drow in this situation has been at the game far longer than the male human with the combat knife... I feel you, and it DOES make sense but I have to disagree, Humans are fast learner compared to any other race, the extra feat and the extra skill point in fist lv represents that. so a 500 y.o. drow would be the equivalent of a 25 (or so) human.
Warning 12-05-07, 05:32 PM	I see your point, but I don't agree with it. Humans aren't really designed all that well as a species, but we have intelligence and oppossable thumbs, so that's made us number one on this planet. But it doesn't mean there aren't 'superior' species out there... it just means we haven't met them yet. From what we know is what I'm saying. And until we do know, we create this made up characters such as elves and orcs in substitute of them. So saying humans get the ability to learn faster only because they would suck depending on their age limit is an understatement considering what other fantasy beings are based from.
Mifelhagen 12-05-07, 05:36 PM	What's up with all this "They've been around longer so they can do it better," nonsense running around here? Longer does NOT mean better. Persia got its clock cleaned by a Greece, and Persia had seen more warfare and been around a lot longer than Greece. Greece got its clock cleaned by the Roman Empire. The Chinese (with a culture that made anything the west had look like a joke for the longest time), was humiliated by Britain. The USA became a lone super power in 200 years, what took Britain to do in 1000. Don't give me this Longer = better nonsense; it doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny. If anything, longer = stagnant. And seriously, thats what the drow are - for all their murdering each other and churning out magical items and such, they have not changed for the past 5000+ years or so sense they went underground. For crying out loud, they can't even do the high magic they crave. You never see them with any new innovations what so ever - including magical. This is compared to a group of soldiers from the most advanced and adaptive nation on earth who, whenever it wants to do something uses all its ingenuity and creativity to get it done in a new way thats never been done before. Heck, a lot of first world nations do this. I'm not coming out and saying that the SEALS would win, but the drow don't hold a candle to the creativity, ingenuity, and adaptability the SEALS poses. Its just not culturally ingrained into them. Longer does NOT equal instant win. (By the way I highly doubt many drow could beat any decent soldier who studies martial arts in a hand to hand fight as they mainly use melee weapons or magic)
Sol_Odlanier 12-05-07, 06:16 PM	i personally would find the humans facinating if i were an elf. Think about it "This 'humans' age around 9 time faster than us yet they learn 9 time as faster they can use 'The Art almost as good as us they can forge like a dwarf, fun as a gnome, nimble as a halfling,and brutal like orcs, they can be as good as an angel or as evil as a fiend, heck they can reproduse like rabbits not only within themselfs but also w us and the orcs" :D
TheBlackMephisto 12-05-07, 06:39 PM	What's up with all this "They've been around longer so they can do it better," nonsense running around here? Longer does NOT mean better. Persia got its clock cleaned by a Greece, and Persia had seen more warfare and been around a lot longer than Greece. Greece got its clock cleaned by the Roman Empire. The Chinese (with a culture that made anything the west had look like a joke for the longest time), was humiliated by Britain. The USA became a lone super power in 200 years, what took Britain to do in 1000. Don't give me this Longer = better nonsense; it doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny. If anything, longer = stagnant. And seriously, thats what the drow are - for all their murdering each other and churning out magical items and such, they have not changed for the past 5000+ years or so sense they went underground. For crying out loud, they can't even do the high magic they crave. You never see them with any new innovations what so ever - including magical. This is compared to a group of soldiers from the most advanced and adaptive nation on earth who, whenever it wants to do something uses all its ingenuity and creativity to get it done in a new way thats never been done before. Heck, a lot of first world nations do this. I'm not coming out and saying that the SEALS would win, but the drow don't hold a candle to the creativity, ingenuity, and adaptability the SEALS poses. Its just not culturally ingrained into them. Longer does NOT equal instant win. (By the way I highly doubt many drow could beat any decent soldier who studies martial arts in a hand to hand fight as they mainly use melee weapons or magic) I am implying what I say in the-realm of fantasy-. You are making it 'real' it seems. What I mean by saying that longer is better, in a fantasy setting, is that a long time master of a martial art, a 10th Dan, is gonna kill your third degree black belt SEAL in 'unarmed one on one combat' in just a few moves. It would seem as though the master was toying with the student. i.e; Drow vs. Human SEAL. (IN A FANTASY SETTING) However. The things you said like, Britain humiliating China, that's all correct. I won't argue fact. I am talking fantasy realms...:P
Warning 12-05-07, 06:49 PM	I am talking fantasy realms...:P And so are we. Humans in fantasy realms are able learn faster than others. Therefore it does not matter the time equivalent. And in that perspective, if humans could live as long, they would be stronger than all else. I already told you the Elmenster example. and Disproved you're RAS example...Drizzt is a Drow and how old? Artemis is a human and how old? Yet they are rivals. Your theory fails friend.
Sol_Odlanier 12-05-07, 06:54 PM	I have to agree with the kid on this one
Stigger 12-05-07, 07:35 PM	Unfortunately, those human > all rules were constructed by humans, so it follows that the game is stacked in their favor... doesn't mean its true however. Let an elf write the rules and I'll bet we'd see something very different on the views of humans... ;) :D Although Mifelhagn's point up there is valid... but written entirely with humans as an example, not elves. Hard to say that elves would be stagnant in their ways after x amount of years until we meet one and have a chance to have a long, involved conversation that we'll probably die in the middle of... :P :D
Warning 12-05-07, 07:37 PM	Unfortunately, those human > all rules were constructed by humans, so it follows that the game is stacked in their favor... doesn't mean its true however. Let an elf write the rules and I'll bet we'd see something very different on the views of humans... ;) :D Although Mifelhagn's point up there is valid... but written entirely with humans as an example, not elves. Hard to say that elves would be stagnant in their ways after x amount of years until we meet one and have a chance to have a long, involved conversation that we'll probably die in the middle of... :P :D Listen to you rofl. Yes, let the Elves write the rules...oh wait? The Elves are made from humans too! Sorry bro, your logic fails.
Stigger 12-05-07, 07:43 PM	Elves are made from humans? I wouldn't say that to Correllon were I you... Besides, the rules are made out to favor our own species, so of course we're going to present ourselves as the best. The elves would do the same... the really scary part comes when the halflings and gnomes start writing game rules to put themselves on top of the food chain, so to speak... :blink:
Warning 12-05-07, 07:48 PM	Elves are made from humans? I wouldn't say that to Correllon were I you... Besides, the rules are made out to favor our own species, so of course we're going to present ourselves as the best. The elves would do the same... the really scary part comes when the halflings and gnomes start writing game rules to put themselves on top of the food chain, so to speak... :blink: Lol, all I'm saying is, if humans beings created fantasy novels with the creatures called elves/goblins/orcs or whatever. Than the most potential that creature can have is the same as a humans...because it was created from the human mind. If I make up some monster in my head, it's only going to be as strong as I allow it to be. And bring Correllon to me, tell him I would step on Legalos if he were real. Damn no beard growers! Have they no shame?!
Stigger 12-05-07, 07:49 PM	If elves wrote D&D books, you can bet that humans would only be a half-step up from orcs... and all would bow before elven might. :evillaugh
Warning 12-05-07, 07:56 PM	If elves wrote D&D books, you can bet that humans would only be a half-step up from orcs... and all would bow before elven might. :evillaugh If Elves wrote DnD books, humans would not exist. Elves are a concept derived from humans. As I said before, just things we wished we would have. Why would elves include something lesser in their DnD? They would probably put something in their DnD that would make them seem lesser to their imaginary creation.
Stigger 12-05-07, 08:05 PM	Nah, humans would be the goblins of the setting for when they need to go beat up something small to grind off the low levels on the way up to being uber. ;)
Warning 12-05-07, 08:17 PM	Nah, humans would be the goblins of the setting for when they need to go beat up something small to grind off the low levels on the way up to being uber. ;) Elves are pansies. They can't Grow beards, the males sound and look like all the females. The use bows alot because they can't take damage with their frail bodies. I mean dude, look at legalos. Need I say more? The only reason they have swords is because they are small and fast like a cat...but once hit..they are down. I would go to the highest ranking elf in FR and give him a shot of 90 proof Vadkka (which isn't that much btw), and he would die from his frail liver not being able to take it. Stigger dude, can you ever....EVER....imagine a elf being a Spartan from the movie 300? Don't even answer this, I know you agree. By the way, anyone who's read Dragonlance would really hate elves after viewing the 3 intro novels by Weis and Hickmen.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-05-07, 08:21 PM	Actually, aren't elves pretty renowned for some particularly strong drinks?
Warning 12-05-07, 08:38 PM	Actually, aren't elves pretty renowned for some particularly strong drinks? When I was RPing with a friend, I had entered a Elf town. And I was in a hurry so i was running, and I heard a whistle blow...I was kinda curious to what it was..but kept going...then I heard it again..a split second after I heard a voice yell in a high pitched tone "2nd warning! No running!". (I am laughing really hard right now as I'm typing this, I can't even drink my water properly). Then I broke into a sprint, "FINAL WARNING REPORTED!!!". Elves are a joke as whole in my own opinion.
Suin Bahhar 12-05-07, 09:10 PM	So your character got turned into a pincushion and ran away with arrows in his ass right? Otherwise I didn't see the fun part. :shrugs:
Warning 12-05-07, 10:08 PM	So your character got turned into a pincushion and ran away with arrows in his ass right? Otherwise I didn't see the fun part. :shrugs: He said reported, not doomed. Besides..why the arrows? Not man enough to accomplish punishment to my face? Very feminine. The fun part was the comparison to "school patrol in Elementary".
Stigger 12-06-07, 02:04 AM	So if bows and arrows, which require considerable strength to pull in a military capacity are for weenies, what does that make guns, which are fairly lightweight, require maybe 3-5lb of trigger pull, and otherwise don't require much in the way of physical strength comparatively? I mean c'mon, if those modern military types were real men, they'd be rushing their enemies bare nekkid with nothing but sharpened teeth to rend the flesh of the enemy instead of hiding behind armor and shooting little weenie lead pellets, right? Bunch of wusses...
GothicDan 12-06-07, 02:14 AM	They can't Grow beards, the males sound and look like all the females. Hair growth on the face is a SECONDARY sexual characteristic. And I shave every day because I think facial hair is terribly ugly. They 'sound' feminine? Have you heard Elves speak? They look like females? No, Elven males and Elven females differ. The use bows alot because they can't take damage with their frail bodies. I mean dude, look at legalos. Need I say more? The only reason they have swords is because they are small and fast like a cat...but once hit..they are down. Yeah, and the frail physicists are the ones who can now destroy the crust of the Earth multiple times over with nuclear bombs. I would go to the highest ranking elf in FR and give him a shot of 90 proof Vadkka (which isn't that much btw), and he would die from his frail liver not being able to take it. Elverquisst, I believe, is so potent most humans can't even drink it. Stigger dude, can you ever....EVER....imagine a elf being a Spartan from the movie 300? Don't even answer this, I know you agree. No, but the ACTUAL most-feared fighting group in ancient Greece, the Sacred Band of Thebes, was made up entirely of homosexuals (or at least bisexual men in man-man relationships). I'm just tossin' that out there. Warning, your definitions are extremely limited and your opinions on topics are insurmountably chauvinist, to the point of seeming rednecked.
Stigger 12-06-07, 02:22 AM	I shave daily myself... just love my electric razor really. :cloud9: But yeah... I'd go into the scary little swishy goth pretty boys beating the living hell out of a bunch of large skinheads in a nightclub parking lot, but I'm still not sure I believe it despite having witnessed it...
Derren S. 12-06-07, 04:00 AM	According to you, no one from FR universe can lose. Except for all the times I said that low level FR people will loose (or rather that in such cases the seals would win)... Seals are defenseless against magic and everyone with a decent amount of magic can defeat them, this includes level 14 drow with equipment appropriate for their wealth and it certainly includes Red Wizards.
Warning 12-06-07, 05:02 AM	Whoa, um, ok..let's get back on topic. My fault for straying away from it. Anyway, Seals are no more defenseless vs magic than Artemis was before he had his gauntlet...he killed many wizards and mages...and he did it with a sword...Seals have guns?
Lord Karsus 12-06-07, 07:56 AM	Warning, your definitions are extremely limited and your opinions on topics are insurmountably chauvinist, to the point of seeming rednecked. -Rednecked. Nice word. -I haven't shaved in about two months or so, and I have maybe an 1/8 inch of facial hair? If even...
Suin Bahhar 12-06-07, 10:51 AM	Artemis PWNS a Seal... :D
Stigger 12-06-07, 10:57 AM	Well, that and he's actually had some experience dealing with them... not something many people on this planet can claim. ;)
Warning 12-06-07, 11:13 AM	I guess the analogy of comparison for Derren's post was lost on all of you.....I was trying to say...just because you don't have a defense against magic, doesn't mean you can't beat it.
Stigger 12-06-07, 11:20 AM	Doesn't mean you can either, unfortunately...
Warning 12-06-07, 11:24 AM	Doesn't mean you can either, unfortunately... I have 2 speeds, walk and kill.
Derren S. 12-06-07, 11:41 AM	I guess the analogy of comparison for Derren's post was lost on all of you.....I was trying to say...just because you don't have a defense against magic, doesn't mean you can't beat it. By "defense" I also mean "Ways to breach magical protection". When the enemy wizards casts greater invisibility (or the drow fighters drink a potion of normal invisibility) the range advantage is gone (and in the case of improved invisibility the seals are already dead. Protection from Arrows stops 50% of all successful attack from the seals and Entropic Shield stops 20%. There is also a FR spell which works like protection from arrows but turns the "arrows" it stops. That will hurt the seals. And as their weapons are not magical they will have much trouble with DR not to mention shatter.
Suin Bahhar 12-06-07, 11:42 AM	Bullet in the head. Pwnd. :D
Warning 12-06-07, 11:45 AM	By "defense" I also mean "Ways to breach magical protection". When the enemy wizards casts greater invisibility (or the drow fighters drink a potion of normal invisibility) the range advantage is gone (and in the case of improved invisibility the seals are already dead. Protection from Arrows stops 50% of all successful attack from the seals and Entropic Shield stops 20%. There is also a FR spell which works like protection from arrows but turns the "arrows" it stops. That will hurt the seals. And as their weapons are not magical they will have much trouble with DR not to mention shatter. How long will it take to set all this up? Take the time to cast it, prepare it and so on? Answer: Too long. By that time my friend, when facing an elite spec ops, you are dead. Pulling a trigger is faster than casting a spell or knocking a arrow into the bow.
Derren S. 12-06-07, 11:47 AM	How long will it take to set all this up? Take the time to cast it, prepare it and so on? Answer: Too long. By that time my friend, when facing an elite spec ops, you are dead. Pulling a trigger is faster than casting a spell or knocking a arrow into the bow. Casting (Greater) invisibility -> 1 standard action Casting Prot. from arrows -> 1 standard action Casting Entropic Shield -> 1 standard action Considering that invisibility is enough to defeat the seals it certainly doesn't take too long.
Warning 12-06-07, 11:54 AM	Casting (Greater) invisibility -> 1 standard action Casting Prot. from arrows -> 1 standard action Casting Entropic Shield -> 1 standard action Considering that invisibility is enough to defeat the seals it certainly doesn't take too long. You don't understand. I am not denying the fact that they are better. And I'm sure it's fast in your standards. But if it is going to take longer than something as simple as pulling a trigger. Who says you are going to be able to do it? Can't do much with a bullet in your brain.
Mifelhagen 12-06-07, 01:02 PM	I am implying what I say in the-realm of fantasy-. You are making it 'real' it seems. Erm.... I dont understand what you are saying here. SEALS AREN'T in fantasy so... we have to PRETEND that they are, and if we are pretending that a seal is in fantasy, we have to PRETEND-in this real life to fantasy translation-that they have almost everything that makes them a seal (but since they cant use electronics they are at a tremendous disadvantage to the point that its probably not even worth it). What I mean by saying that longer is better, in a fantasy setting, is that a long time master of a martial art, a 10th Dan, is gonna kill your third degree black belt SEAL in 'unarmed one on one combat' in just a few moves. It would seem as though the master was toying with the student. i.e; Drow vs. Human SEAL. (IN A FANTASY SETTING) However. The things you said like, Britain humiliating China, that's all correct. I won't argue fact. I am talking fantasy realms...:P Thats the thing; unless the drow is a monk, I don't see any evidence that a drow weapon master uses anything other than a weapon. This is not to say that they can't do it, but as with any person in the armed forces, they are trained with their weapon first and everything else second (unless they want to go all the way with it which seems to be the way with special forces based on my limited understanding). So, NO, I don't think we can call a drow a 10th DAN, because they don't seem to bother much with hand to hand the way special forces units in RL are. I dunno I could be wrong, but the only time I see/hear a drow without a weapon is when its dead and not a zombie. One last thing, From all indications, it takes drow between scores to hundreds of years to master their weapons. Compared to humans who master weapons in decades. Not saying that there aren't acceptions, but this seems to be the rule, and so the longer is better issue still doesn't look good for the drow.
Mifelhagen 12-06-07, 01:16 PM	'gods' forbid, for the magic users' (heck the whole mystical infrastructures') sake, that the Seals come into contact with antimagic - as they will probably ingest it, smear the stuff all over their items, and always include bits of antimagic in their weaponary. Magic leveled against them would be useless, and anyone using magic who gets to close to them will have all of their magical items and current spells shut down near them. Heck, if they ever survived an experience against magic, they'd sleep next to vials of antimagic fluids like teddy bears. I wanna see the confused look on a red wizard's face when a bullet rips through their brain after they spent all that time casting protection from missiles and other defensive spells.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-06-07, 02:08 PM	By "defense" I also mean "Ways to breach magical protection". When the enemy wizards casts greater invisibility (or the drow fighters drink a potion of normal invisibility) the range advantage is gone (and in the case of improved invisibility the seals are already dead. Protection from Arrows stops 50% of all successful attack from the seals and Entropic Shield stops 20%. There is also a FR spell which works like protection from arrows but turns the "arrows" it stops. That will hurt the seals. And as their weapons are not magical they will have much trouble with DR not to mention shatter. again with that... Look If you are spupid enoug to let yourself get a invisible drow to get near enough to hit you you deserve to die. being invisible is not being a ghost. they still need to walk slow to get to the SEALs otherwise they will hear them right, get what dude? I'm runnig my A$$ OFF! these people wount freeze in their track waiting for a sword on thei backs, you are high if you think that. If the drow run after them they can hear them, BOOM, dead drows if they dont run after them there's no battle either way Invisibility has no positive effect for the drow Not to mention that they can put them in a deadly funnel and see the sand/ dirt/water/rock/rubble moving. now, there's factors involded of course like if they are in a loud place and/or if they are in a hard floor (they can't see their tracks) and such. I THINK (i'm laking divination spells :D) that you are the "spellCaster" player and everyone else (specially fighters) are grunts. and that's not the case. judging by what you say fighter and barbarian and all those classes are Fuked cuz they cant cast. but let me tell you something, a dumb grunt is a dead grunt, and this guys are anything but. in d 'modern'(pun intended) battlefield if u aren't paying attention to detail you die and i'm talking about normal not super train super soldier these guys are not gonna fall for such a cheessy stupid trick.... And BTW I gave you a Great scerio justifing the SEALS/SF guys having knowledge and maybe even use of magic but you totally ignore it. But I'll do something with you to help this whole thread out if you feel up to it, why don't we (you and me) make a new thred in the d&d general area and betwueen you and me we establish a background story and scenario and circumsatnces, lv, and classes of the Drow/SF dudes and let other people post what they think and in case we forget to establish some thing in the OP we can rule it as we go? P.S. The whole entropic shield/protection from arrows....yeah they'll be DONE :D
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-06-07, 02:15 PM	Erm.... I dont understand what you are saying here. SEALS AREN'T in fantasy so... we have to PRETEND that they are, and if we are pretending that a seal is in fantasy, we have to PRETEND-in this real life to fantasy translation-that they have almost everything that makes them a seal (but since they cant use electronics they are at a tremendous disadvantage to the point that its probably not even worth it). Just for your benefit we are using d20 modern system for the SEALs
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-06-07, 02:29 PM	BTW everyone is invited to participate, BUT "Warnning" cuz you have to be over''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' :teach: THIS line to ride:D
Warning 12-06-07, 02:42 PM	BTW everyone is invited to participate, BUT "Warnning" cuz you have to be over''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' :teach: THIS line to ride:D You presume much.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-06-07, 02:57 PM	Just a joke kid :)
Warning 12-06-07, 03:08 PM	Just a joke kid :) I don't think you understand why I said that. It had nothing to do with height. So get your sh*t straight...kid.
Inexorable 12-06-07, 03:36 PM	Pretty funny thread. Listen, this could be debated for infinity... I just look at it like Star Wars. Jedi/Sith are magic wielders but they still die to a a gun/blaster at times, especially a shooter who happens to be a specialist and far above your average soldier... like Boba and Jenga Fett and SEALS or special forces in our world. Personally, I'm unfamiliar with d20 modern rules but they don't seem to accurately portray modern weapons very well. I mean take a look at this but be warned... this is real life, people are getting shot and killed in this video so if you have a problem with it don't watch it. ***THIS VIDEO REQUIRES YOU TO BE OVER 18 ACCORDING TO YOU TUBE**** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6rZlgbHjfk I don't see drow standing up to that at all... or a dragon for that matter. but whatever... have your debate.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-06-07, 04:11 PM	I don't think you understand why I said that. It had nothing to do with height. So get your sh*t straight...kid. Like I said, just a joke kid;)
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-06-07, 04:17 PM	Oh, you have to see the videos we have, bro for our "trainings"... not cool, Any way I agree with you about the whole thread, but is SO entretaining!!!!!:D
18DELTA 12-07-07, 12:15 AM	You guys are sooo funny. All that a SEAL Team would do is infiltrate a Drow city, plant a thermal nuclear device, exfiltrate the ao, and BYE-BYE DROW CITY!!!:D Just give those Seals a M4SOCOM, those Drow will be dead, and wont even know what killed them.:P Hell even a platoon of Airborne Rangers would kick those silly Drow :censored: !:P And dont get me started on the Sniper rifles a Seal Team would use on those Matron Mothers!:cool: One shot 2 kills! Straight through the FACE BABY!:eek: Cause silenced sniper rifles, and assault weapons kick much :censored:
Stigger 12-07-07, 02:34 AM	Only problem being that a silenced AR or sniper weapon would have to use sub-sonic ammunition in order to be actually quiet, otherwise you still get the sonic boom of the ammunition travelling to its target. Most 'silencers' only trap some of the muzzle report, but not the noise of a supersonic bullet.
Derren S. 12-07-07, 04:17 AM	You don't understand. I am not denying the fact that they are better. And I'm sure it's fast in your standards. But if it is going to take longer than something as simple as pulling a trigger. Who says you are going to be able to do it? Can't do much with a bullet in your brain. A bullet is 2d10 damage. Unless teh wizard is low level that is not a automatic "bullet in the brain". Depending on the damage roll it could take a lot more shots to kill a wizard. And you only get one attack to stop spellcasting (unless everyone uses ready action and thus is defenseless against melee attackers) Look If you are spupid enoug to let yourself get a invisible drow to get near enough to hit you you deserve to die. being invisible is not being a ghost. they still need to walk slow to get to the SEALs otherwise they will hear them right, get what dude? I'm runnig my A$$ OFF! these people wount freeze in their track waiting for a sword on thei backs, you are high if you think that. If the drow run after them they can hear them, BOOM, dead drows if they dont run after them there's no battle either way Invisibility has no positive effect for the drow Notice how we talked some pages back how valuable the earplugs the Seals have are? Those things don't help you with pinpointing enemies by sound. Firing a weapon will also make it a little hard to make the listen check. Also Strong Heroes do not have Listen as class skill. Only soldiers have that. That means Seals might not have maxed out their listen skill. And when you give the Seals magic then the drows are carrying MP5SDs.
Mifelhagen 12-07-07, 08:26 AM	Just for your benefit we are using d20 modern system for the SEALs Yes, I know this but I thought we were also taking into consideration background from the posts I am seeing. I thought we were treating these groups as more than stats. I guess we aren't then; this is a mindless stats fight. Skip tactics and everything else, I guess. Just put them in an arena and let them have at it since they wont act like they normally would in a given situation. The drow wont scry or set up ambushes or use invisibility and other protections before fights. They will be totally unprepared for anything the Seals throw at them that they would have been prepared for if they had done scrying or observations or anything else. The seals wont give a careful analysis of their new environment. They wont act cautious. They wont have someone in sniping positions when they finally go to talk to a native. They will assume everything is an enemy and shoot first and ask questions later.
GothicDan 12-07-07, 11:32 AM	Gond goes, "Wtf? What is that technology?" and shuts down the SEALs' tech. Fight over.
Warning 12-07-07, 12:00 PM	Gond goes, "Wtf? What is that technology?" and shuts down the SEALs' tech. Fight over. I go, "Wtf?" Magic isn't real! and shut down the Drows ability.
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 12:03 PM	Gond goes, "Wtf? What is that technology?" and shuts down the SEALs' tech. Fight over. -Well, there is the fact that Gond can't exactly do that. But, presuming that he could, why would he? Gond is all for, after all, the creation and proliferation of things of that nature.
Warning 12-07-07, 03:01 PM	Yes, I know this but I thought we were also taking into consideration background from the posts I am seeing. I thought we were treating these groups as more than stats. I guess we aren't then; this is a mindless stats fight. Skip tactics and everything else, I guess. Just put them in an arena and let them have at it since they wont act like they normally would in a given situation. The drow wont scry or set up ambushes or use invisibility and other protections before fights. They will be totally unprepared for anything the Seals throw at them that they would have been prepared for if they had done scrying or observations or anything else. The seals wont give a careful analysis of their new environment. They wont act cautious. They wont have someone in sniping positions when they finally go to talk to a native. They will assume everything is an enemy and shoot first and ask questions later. You can fool a human and it's mind. But you can never fool technology. Let's say there is some spell that is a illusion, the human eye will fall for the trick. Will a camera? So if they have time to sit down and scry, seals have time for the use of optical spying.
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 03:22 PM	But you can never fool technology. -Sure you can. Nothing is infallable.
Derren S. 12-07-07, 03:35 PM	You can fool a human and it's mind. But you can never fool technology. Let's say there is some spell that is a illusion, the human eye will fall for the trick. Will a camera? So if they have time to sit down and scry, seals have time for the use of optical spying. And it would still fail because unless a computer evaluates the pictures the one on the other side of the camera woulds till be fooled by illusions (depending on the illusion the camera might also be fooled though).
Stigger 12-07-07, 05:52 PM	Warning obviously never played Mage: The Ascension... where screwing with (and enhancing!) technology via magick is pretty much standard fare. ;) :D
Sol_Odlanier 12-07-07, 07:32 PM	You guys are sooo funny. All that a SEAL Team would do is infiltrate a Drow city, plant a thermal nuclear device, exfiltrate the ao, and BYE-BYE DROW CITY!!!:D Just give those Seals a M4SOCOM, those Drow will be dead, and wont even know what killed them.:P Hell even a platoon of Airborne Rangers would kick those silly Drow :censored: !:P And dont get me started on the Sniper rifles a Seal Team would use on those Matron Mothers!:cool: One shot 2 kills! Straight through the FACE BABY!:eek: Cause silenced sniper rifles, and assault weapons kick much :censored: It was about time you showed up... For all I know we two (and stigger in a indirect way) are the only unes that know what are talking about...
Mifelhagen 12-08-07, 01:12 AM	You can fool a human and it's mind. But you can never fool technology. Let's say there is some spell that is a illusion, the human eye will fall for the trick. Will a camera? So if they have time to sit down and scry, seals have time for the use of optical spying. However, as this fight is stacked and electronics doesn't work there is no scrying of any sort for the seals other than scouting. And it would still fail because unless a computer evaluates the pictures the one on the other side of the camera woulds till be fooled by illusions (depending on the illusion the camera might also be fooled though). I was always under the impression that magic illusions where similar to holographic images; that is, they didn't just affect your mental senses, like a psionic based illusion, but were actually manipulating light for the visual images. Based on that, even a normal camera would be useless for trying to see through an illusion. Now thermal vision is a whole different story, I think. But of course they don't get these either. :(
Derren S. 12-08-07, 06:17 AM	Why would thermal vision be different? They are just another form of vision like darkvision. You can't detect a invisible creature with thermal vision either and most illusion spells which create an image also include thermal components.
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 10:10 AM	Why would thermal vision be different? They are just another form of vision like darkvision. You can't detect a invisible creature with thermal vision either and most illusion spells which create an image also include thermal components. -Invisibility and Infrainvisibility are different, just like Darkvision and Infravision are different. Thermal imaging items can detect an invisible creature, but cannot detect an infrainvisible creature. Nightvision can detect an infrainvisible creture, but not an invisible creature.
Derren S. 12-08-07, 11:55 AM	-Invisibility and Infrainvisibility are different, just like Darkvision and Infravision are different. Thermal imaging items can detect an invisible creature, but cannot detect an infrainvisible creature. Nightvision can detect an infrainvisible creture, but not an invisible creature. Says who? The rules certainly don't. And acording to the D20 Modern SRD Night Vision Goggles only give darkvision, don't work in total darkness and the infrared illuminator (used in such situations) works like a normal flashlight except that other people can't see the light (unless they also wera NV Goggles).
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 12:01 PM	Says who? The rules certainly don't. -I'm defining what Invisibility is, and what Infrainvisibility is. An invisible individual gives off body heat, and thus, can be detected by thermal imaging, even though they cannot be seen by the naked eye. An infrainvisible individual does not give off body heat, and thus, cannot be detected by thermal imaging. However, they are visible to the naked eye, meaning that nightvision equipment can detect them. -Therefore, an invisible individual can be detected by thermal imaging (hidden from the naked eye, but exudes body heat), and an infrainvisible individual can be detected by nightvision (is not hidden from the naked eye, but does not exude body heat). This is a combination of 2e Infravision rules and 3e Darkvision rules.
Derren S. 12-08-07, 12:15 PM	Except that 2Ed Infravision rules do not apply here. As I said above its official that Night Vision only gives you Darkvision which does not penetrate Invisibility.
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 12:20 PM	Except that 2Ed Infravision rules do not apply here. -In my world they do. Darkvision and Infravision are two seperate concepts. One allows an individual to see in the dark, and the other allows an individual to see in the infrared spectrum. As I said above its official that Night Vision only gives you Darkvision which does not penetrate Invisibility. -No, Night Vision, and Darkvision certainly doesn't allow one to see invisible creatures. But, I never implied that it would, though- hence the part where I said, "Nightvision can detect an infrainvisible creture, but not an invisible creature".
TheBlackMephisto 12-08-07, 12:46 PM	Things get heated here quick don't they? Who really cares who would win. Both the drow and the SEAL are bad asses in their own right. Wouldn't it be better if say, some maligned unit of SEALs went back in time/world hopped to find drow and train them in the ways of tactics and techniques? Or perhaps have the drow train them? What about that? :confused:
Sol_Odlanier 12-08-07, 04:43 PM	Where's the fun in that? :D
Stigger 12-08-07, 05:15 PM	So, yeah... one wonders what the effects of a Chain Lightning would be though. Would the electrical energy conceivably cook off ammunition in magazines? Would the guy holding the M249 have his belt of ammo ignite in a rather catastrophic explosion? How about a Fireball having the same sorts of effects? Would a Cone of Cold cause the weapons to reach their Nil Ductility Temperature and essentially shatter the gun the next time it tried to fire, at least for a few seconds? Would an Acid Cloud spell corrode the ammunition and ignite it as the vapors seeped into the magazines? Just a few random questions to liven things up a little... :D
18DELTA 12-08-07, 06:08 PM	Its all fun and games, untill someone gets their felling hurt, then and only then is it a blast!;) :P :D :rolleyes: Yeah Stigger I wonder what would happen to a Seal,when and if he was in the blast radius of a fireball with a butt load of ammo & demo on him?:eek: Considering how much ammo & demo those cats like to carry around on OPS!:cool:
Sol_Odlanier 12-08-07, 06:09 PM	you see, this is what i dont get, why the drow would know that chain lightning would have those effects on SEALs weapons, and the SEALs are to stupid to know about magic? AND btw Don't the SEALs will have a saving thow for that the same way a normal weapon would?
Andferne 12-08-07, 06:24 PM	Read through a lot of the posts and one thing that stands out was someone saying the Seals would hear them sneaking up on them and get the F@#$ out before they got to them. IDK about that ever heard of the spell Silence? Silence + Invisibility = a lot of dead Seals. But this fight eve useing D20 modern rules just depends on what kind of group the Seals are fighting. IF its them infiltrating the city and makeing it go boom, I see a lot of alarm spells going off abd scrying going on before they get the bombs they need set in the right areas. Now if its a scouting party of drow vs Seals I see the Seals winning this in almost every encounter, but the drow are the masters of sneakiness.
Suin Bahhar 12-08-07, 06:43 PM	A single utterance of a chained shatter spell targetted on a grenade belt is also really interesting. Grease and crowd control spells will funnel the Seals to their doom. Illusions could prove the best tools as distractions and false information on a battlefield can be pivotal in the outcome of a combat. Seals could use grenades to flush out drow in hiding and suppresing fire to mow down scattered positions of drow. Stig also mentioned muzzle flash could verywell help in fire fights and close combat melee. A Berretta's flash could disorientate a drow melee fighter enough that a Seal could finish him. Drow scout parties are tough cookies though. Very balanced tactically and backed by a priestess it would be even more dangerous.
Sol_Odlanier 12-08-07, 06:43 PM	what about tracks? and there's still the fact that they can run away. and I DOUBT whith all my heart that the drow can catch up, not to mention tha those are two turns that's 12 seconds ... that alot of dead Drows...:D
Sol_Odlanier 12-08-07, 06:49 PM	But this is an unfair position in the first place like I said beforeMainly because the drow have Home advantege PLUS all their resouses and an aparrnt knowledge of the SEALs tech, can anyone tell me How the **** the drow Know that granades explode? for all they know thats a metal pouch or a metal potion vial... anyone?
Suin Bahhar 12-08-07, 06:54 PM	Plain luck. Intuition. Call it what ever you like. I just like the image of a cloaked drow levitating above Seals uttering a word and a swath of explosion tearing them apart. Ah, a true 14th level wizard would toy with those grunts.
Sol_Odlanier 12-08-07, 07:00 PM	HEY! I'm one of those "grunts"(or to close to comfort anyways:P )! and by luck a "grunt" can dobble tap a wiz A$$.
Andferne 12-08-07, 07:50 PM	Spells like foresight and etc can tell the drow what goes boom.
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 08:42 PM	-Um, again, as per the original perameters of this meeting, it's Navy SEALs against Drow Fighters- as in, no Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics.
Mifelhagen 12-08-07, 09:32 PM	-Um, again, as per the original perameters of this meeting, it's Navy SEALs against Drow Fighters- as in, no Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics. See, now its been stacked in the SEALS favor. Before, SEALS' electronics didn't work but magic did, thereby making this fight stacked in drow's favor. Now its stacked in the SEALS favor as the SEALS can just ping drow fighter skulls with impunity before the drow can ever get close them. I'm sorry, but I just looked at the rules carefully, and there is no way drow fighters with swords, or even bows(that would be near useless against modern body armor anyway), can take on a group of expert marksmen who can pop people upside their heads all day (plus have flash bangs and grenades and other nasties) without some cleric or wizard support. Give the SEALS Burst Fire ftw and port them boys back home.
18DELTA 12-08-07, 11:23 PM	-Um, again, as per the original perameters of this meeting, it's Navy SEALs against Drow Fighters- as in, no Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics. :w00t: :bow: :rofl: :ayyyy!: :cloud9: :pile: :teach: :tiphat: An for good measure, those SEALS could have some Claymore Mines Daisy Chained together!;) The look on that House Weapons Master, when it goes off would be priceless!!!:D
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 12:02 AM	An for good measure, those SEALS could have some Claymore Mines Daisy Chained together!;) The look on that House Weapons Master, when it goes off would be priceless!!!:D -Something tells me that Claymores aren't considered "standard SEAL equipment".
18DELTA 12-09-07, 12:31 AM	-Something tells me that Claymores aren't considered "standard SEAL equipment". I hope you dont mean the Claymore Sword?:confused: What I am talking about is The M-18A1 Anti-Personel Mine!:D The mine that says Front Towards Enemy.:eek: See its G.I proof!;) :rofl: :plotting: They take about 5 mines, link them together. What ever walks, crawls, or runs through the KILL ZONE IS IN FOR A REALLY BAD DAY!!!:cool: Its a comand detonated, trip-wire detonated mine that will ruin those pesky Dark Elves day or night if you prefer.:P Its got about 2 pounds of C4 in it, with about 600 metal balls that fly out in a 360 degree spread. Any thing with in 50 meters of it is DEAD. Take 5 of them and well you should get my point!;)
Sol_Odlanier 12-09-07, 02:49 AM	You see, Ive been saying that all thread but NOOOO Mr. Delta says it and everyboby goes Ohhhh AHhHH But Guess What Sir u are/were DELTA NOT CHARLIE, go patch people somewere :D
Andferne 12-09-07, 03:53 AM	I could still see a trained group of drow fighters take out a group of seals. By d20mdern ruels as page 35 an Adult(16-39) would be level 3 for limited exsepriance, level 5 for moderate experiance, and level 7 for high exsperiance. Then take into effect if thier even heroic characters, seeing as they would be NPC's they would be non heroic characters. I see any of Menzo's top weapons masters takeing a group of them out by himself with the magical items and skills at his disposal. Zak, Dantrag, Bergin'yin, Rlyd and many many others I can name would take a goup of these guys out alone, and a whole platoon of them if thier not heroic builds.
Derren S. 12-09-07, 06:09 AM	-Um, again, as per the original perameters of this meeting, it's Navy SEALs against Drow Fighters- as in, no Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics. Level 20 fighters do tend to carry a lot of potions and other magical gear. The killing blow has to be done with the (+8 or higher) weapon but the fighters have likely so much magical gear that the Seals can't touch them.
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 10:20 AM	Level 20 fighters do tend to carry a lot of potions and other magical gear. The killing blow has to be done with the (+8 or higher) weapon but the fighters have likely so much magical gear that the Seals can't touch them. -Is it level 20 or level 14, Derren? Make up your mind.
Derren S. 12-09-07, 10:40 AM	Technically its even level 22. 20 fighter levels + 2 LA. Yes, I did somehow think it was only level 14 but I already admitted this mistake some pages ago. But it doesn't really matter. Such high level fighters simply have lots of magical gear, enough to easily destroy the Seals which lack any magical weapons or other equipment.
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 11:15 AM	Technically its even level 22. 20 fighter levels + 2 LA. Yes, I did somehow think it was only level 14 but I already admitted this mistake some pages ago. But it doesn't really matter. Such high level fighters simply have lots of magical gear, enough to easily destroy the Seals which lack any magical weapons or other equipment. -As the Drow Fighters advance in level, so too do the SEALs. And, as the SEALs grow more experienced, their equipment changes as well, to reflect the fact that this group is now a "premier" fighting force.
Stigger 12-09-07, 11:32 AM	Why would it matter if the drow knew what effects spells like Chain Lightning or Fireball had on the SEALs equipment? They're still effective area spells, regardless of any secondary effects they may have. Think about it, you've got a bunch of guys running around in what looks like cloth armor, so fire looks like a very good option to use against them, which also happens to have some very adverse effects on their equipment. It looks fairly bulky, so cold might not work if it insulates, acid will probably take too long to burn through the bulky looking cloth unless its in vaporized form, and sonic isn't as attractive against cloth as it would be against metal. So fire and electrical energy look like your best bets against these guys really... which also happen to have to the worst effects against them and their equipment. Simple logic really. Although I would agree that the SEALs would likely have at least a couple of claymores if they were expecting a deployment where they had to sleep at some point. Though I don't recall claymores having more than a 150 degree spread... but its been a long time since I read anything on them. Nope, looked it up, Claymores only cover a 60 degree arc when they go off.
Derren S. 12-09-07, 12:03 PM	-As the Drow Fighters advance in level, so too do the SEALs. And, as the SEALs grow more experienced, their equipment changes as well, to reflect the fact that this group is now a "premier" fighting force. Except that D20 does not have magical weapons or items. They simpla can't get better equipment than Masterwork M4s while the drow have flaming, shocking +5 weapons or something similar. And those Claymores won't save the Seals considering that frag grenades or even one lb C4/Semtex only does 4d6 damage with an <DC20 reflex save for half. Claymores won't be much stronger than that and level 20 (22) fighters laugh about something like this.
Sol_Odlanier 12-09-07, 12:07 PM	You're right about the claymores, the pellets get the 60 degree ark but they do explode 360 degrees and can get hit by the debris in a 50ft. spread If I'm not mistaken (that's why you should set them in front of a tree so the tree can provibe cover)
Stigger 12-09-07, 12:10 PM	As far as I'm aware, the equipment you receive is based on your unit and mission, not your 'level' per se. They're all going to be carrying the masterwork weapons, regardless of whether they're level 10 or level 15. They're all going to be in the same body armor, with the same NVGs, etcetera and so forth... the only differences are going to be personally purchased equipment, which will likely be cosmetic at best. Anything else is done by drawing it from unit stores... Ah, right, I see what you're getting at there Sol. Yeah, they are a little bit dangerous to stand behind when they go off... :D
Mifelhagen 12-09-07, 06:59 PM	I think the best way to go about this thread is the following: have a series of fights at lvl 10,15,20. 1) Figure out the standard skills for both sides, and feats for both sides. 2) Figure out the standard gear of both sides. 3) Then figure out what kind of special equipment an average person from both sides can get their hands on. We put them through certain scenarios with three conditions for each: 1) the drow know of the SEALS 2) The SEALS know of the drow 3) They both know of each other's existence. 1) Giant arena scenario: a) Put them in a giant arena and let them go at it. b) Put them in a giant arena with lots of obstacles 2) In the Underdark scenario 3) An urban environment scenario(surface) 4) A forest/mountain scenario 5) (any others for recommendation?) I think this setup is more fair and a better gauge of who is better (It'll also show who is better in which environment). Heck, we don't even know what gear and such each side has; we just keep coming up with different stuff to suite whichever side we favor. And people seem to know what fantasy skills and feats are available, but not really know whats available for the modern side.
Sol_Odlanier 12-09-07, 09:41 PM	Well, I just umm "acuired" alot of modern books... U can Pm me for details...
Bullet06320 12-10-07, 03:08 AM	- -A SEAL with some cash on hand might get the Red Wizard wondering what this "United States of America" is, and the best way to conquer/exploit it. Thus begins an invasion of Earth by Red Wizards. :) Just twisted, you gave me a good Idea there
Derren S. 12-10-07, 03:10 AM	Well, I just umm "acuired" alot of modern books... U can Pm me for details... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd
Bullet06320 12-10-07, 04:03 AM	Haven't been around in a week or two and spent the last hour reading the 7 new pages since i last read them. But since then i have run a mini adventure pitting seals versus drow. DROW WON 2 OUT OF 3 in all 3 scenarios, the seals walked through a gate/magical shimmered in FR and had no imediate way home so were forced to continue without any Electroninc gear. Scenario 1: The Underdark: With no NVG avaiable and flashlights dead, Glow sticks were used. putting out light and limiting visability. Drow Ambush, Poisioned bolts got 2 seals due to failed saving throws. Lack of visibilty after the Darkness spells went off combined with a fireball got most of the rest in the end. there was a momentary seal advantage when they started shooting back, thats when the Darkness spells took over Scenario 2: Seal prepared camp. the Seals set camp and prepared for an ambush on the surface. Random Drow raiding the surface, due to failed spot check, a Drow got blasted by a claymore, the rest got stunned/blinded. a Parachute flare was fired off, the Seals kicked ass. Scenario 3: Arena: it was close but the seals ended up losing with three drow survivors, Magic was the overriding factor Scenario 4: Stupid players is all I can say: The Seals jumping out airplane doing a HALO jump. shortly after jumping out of the plane, Magic Shimmer kinda looked like heat lightning. The all relise that thier altimiters on thier wrist no longer worked and thier coms didnt work. I said what do you do? my players spent ten minutes going nuts and arguing about it that I decided they went splat on the ground DROW WON 2 OUT OF 3 not including Scenario 4
Derren S. 12-10-07, 04:10 AM	What level were the Seals and Drow? When it where the samle stats given on page 1 I can hardly believe that a 4d6 Claymore would decide the battle.
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 10:50 AM	Just twisted, you gave me a good Idea there -No problemo.
Mifelhagen 12-10-07, 01:01 PM	Well Bullet, that's pretty interesting, but not unexpected- Especially the Underdark fight; that was heavy in the drow favor, especially with no nightvision goggles. Mind you, the fight was specifically drow fighters versus seals according to the original rules, but who cares - thats still interesting. :D Darren, he said they were stunned and blinded by the flashbangs in scenario 2, not that the claymores killed all of them. That makes sense. I was wondering, bullet, How effective were the flashbangs for scenarios 1 and 3? I would have thought those would have helped quit a bit even if they didn't give a victory, especially in the Underdark. And smoke grenades would have been very useful as well in any scenario. It also makes sense from the posts that some fireballs would have been setting off ammo, but I don't know if there are any rules for that. Also, can you tell us what weapons, equipment, and feats both sides had for the scenarios, if thats not to much? And the levels and classes of both sides (obviously it seems like the drow had some wizards in there).
Suin Bahhar 12-10-07, 01:14 PM	Haven't been around in a week or two and spent the last hour reading the 7 new pages since i last read them. But since then i have run a mini adventure pitting seals versus drow. DROW WON 2 OUT OF 3 in all 3 scenarios, the seals walked through a gate/magical shimmered in FR and had no imediate way home so were forced to continue without any Electroninc gear. Scenario 1: The Underdark: With no NVG avaiable and flashlights dead, Glow sticks were used. putting out light and limiting visability. Drow Ambush, Poisioned bolts got 2 seals due to failed saving throws. Lack of visibilty after the Darkness spells went off combined with a fireball got most of the rest in the end. there was a momentary seal advantage when they started shooting back, thats when the Darkness spells took over Scenario 2: Seal prepared camp. the Seals set camp and prepared for an ambush on the surface. Random Drow raiding the surface, due to failed spot check, a Drow got blasted by a claymore, the rest got stunned/blinded. a Parachute flare was fired off, the Seals kicked ass. Scenario 3: Arena: it was close but the seals ended up losing with three drow survivors, Magic was the overriding factor Scenario 4: Stupid players is all I can say: The Seals jumping out airplane doing a HALO jump. shortly after jumping out of the plane, Magic Shimmer kinda looked like heat lightning. The all relise that thier altimiters on thier wrist no longer worked and thier coms didnt work. I said what do you do? my players spent ten minutes going nuts and arguing about it that I decided they went splat on the ground DROW WON 2 OUT OF 3 not including Scenario 4I like your methods. Must have been a blast(pun intended) to play. Interesting results too. Actually quite like I predicted all along. :) Drow are tricky opponents and magic is a real kicker in fights. But prepared Seals are a force to be reckoned with.
Bullet06320 12-11-07, 04:54 AM	It was a Blast. Flashbangs did help, it stunned and blinded a number, but to respond, globes of darkness where thrown out, for blinded drow I just the gerande like wepon chart to figure out exactly where they landed, it made the most sense For the seals the classes were as follows 1 16th, 1 12th and 6 14th level For classes for the seals I used a variation of a variant, I used DnD rules, not as familar with modern rules and couldn't find something that worked right with what I have. Unearthed Arcana has the Thug fighter varient, I just created my own. I took the Rogue class and got rid of all the speacial abilities except the search for traps and gave them fighter feats instead, then I kept the most of the skills the same, I added a few from the modern book, Made some other minor changes, For weopon and armor feats I gave them Simple and Modern Weopon Proficiency(I created that one, it worked for crossover purposses) and the Modern Armor Profiecency(bulletproof vest and modern body armor, again my own creation). That made the most sense. I upped the Hit die to D8(the are just sailors remember) They all had Endurance and toughness feats, most of the rest of the feats where weopon related. We had one sniper with most of the sniper type feats I lost my creative edge for the drow though, I used a 12th levl priest of loth, a 16th level fighter, a 14th level ranger, a 14th level mage and 4 14th fighters. they still kicked ass though
Bullet06320 12-11-07, 04:54 AM	and forgot to mention that for Scenario 4, the halo jump was a night
Derren S. 12-11-07, 05:45 AM	I lost my creative edge for the drow though, I used a 12th levl priest of loth, a 16th level fighter, a 14th level ranger, a 14th level mage and 4 14th fighters. they still kicked ass though Wait, with that much or arcane power how did the Seals have any chance? Greater Invisibility and the drow have won.
Bullet06320 12-11-07, 05:53 AM	FR is a magic rich world and most Drow raiding parties have some heavy hitters in it, it made the most sense. And with the seals without their elelctronic gear they ended up with a severe disadvantage
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-11-07, 02:05 PM	I'm more than pleased with the resulsts, but i still don't see why SEALs need to have that No electronics handicap Though...
Ragitsu 12-11-07, 03:17 PM	Interesting topic! Though I haven't read all 17 pages yet, can't you just use the drow from d20 Modern's Urban Arcana against the human S.E.A.L? In this setting, both magic and technology exist.
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 05:26 PM	Interesting topic! Though I haven't read all 17 pages yet, can't you just use the drow from d20 Modern's Urban Arcana against the human S.E.A.L? In this setting, both magic and technology exist. -17 pages later, someone bring it up! :weep:
Sol_Odlanier 12-11-07, 05:52 PM	I know, right... +5 holy Drow BaneM4 here we come! :D
Bullet06320 12-12-07, 08:53 AM	I'm more than pleased with the resulsts, but i still don't see why SEALs need to have that No electronics handicap Though... The Fight takes place in FR, in Running of the Realms(The FR Campaign setting Box set) on page 9 says electronincs imported from other worlds do not function, therefore, the seals in the realms start with the handicap
Sol_Odlanier 12-12-07, 04:13 PM	The Fight takes place in FR, in Running of the Realms(The FR Campaign setting Box set) on page 9 says electronincs imported from other worlds do not function, therefore, the seals in the realms start with the handicap :w00t: now Thaht's the word I wanted to hear, amiting (not that Bullet was dening it) that there's a haindicap makes all the diference in the world to me:D
Mifelhagen 12-12-07, 07:58 PM	:w00t: now Thaht's the word I wanted to hear, amiting (not that Bullet was dening it) that there's a haindicap makes all the diference in the world to me:D Now, Sol, you aren't implying that if we take away the disadvantage and let the SEALS have their electronic toys that they would walk all over the drow, are you? :evillaugh
Stigger 12-13-07, 12:59 AM	What did they really give up without the electronics? Illuminated combat scopes, spotting lamps, flashlights, laser targetters and NVGs are about the only things of any significant consequence. And most of those aren't actually necessary to fight.
Sol_Odlanier 12-13-07, 01:02 AM	Now, Sol, you aren't implying that if we take away the disadvantage and let the SEALS have their electronic toys that they would walk all over the drow, are you? :evillaugh :D
Sol_Odlanier 12-13-07, 01:06 AM	What did they really give up without the electronics? Illuminated combat scopes, spotting lamps, flashlights, laser targetters and NVGs are about the only things of any significant consequence. And most of those aren't actually necessary to fight. True, True... but NVGs would have definately made a difference in Scenario one (I'm not saying that the SEALs would have won but well you know...)
Stigger 12-13-07, 01:43 AM	Underground? Not without illuminators, which should have been a great big target painted on the SEALs weapons. I tend to think of light the same way the Navy looks at radar during wartime... useful, but also not necessarily something you want going all the time.
Bullet06320 12-13-07, 06:03 AM	:w00t: now Thaht's the word I wanted to hear, amiting (not that Bullet was dening it) that there's a haindicap makes all the diference in the world to me:D It was part of the rules set up way back many pages ago and big part of the early discussion
Mifelhagen 12-13-07, 12:43 PM	Here's the thing about the nightvision goggles: They will have thermal imaging capabilities. That means they will be able to see objects at distances using heat alone. I guess thats why they just summed it up as 'darkvision' for d20 purposes. Seems to me that the biggest factor was the globe of darkness. But that, I think, would be rendered useless with proper nightivision goggles. the globe of darkness seems to just blind opponents the way smoke would, but smokes not all that useful with goggles. Next test, bullet: let electronics work and see what happens. :) By the way, I'm not that knowledgeable about seals, but do they pack things like rocket launchers too? possibly grenade launchers on their guns?
Sol_Odlanier 12-13-07, 04:14 PM	It was part of the rules set up way back many pages ago and big part of the early discussion Oh I know, I know,
Stigger 12-13-07, 04:33 PM	Darkness negates most light sources, creating magical darkness... NVGs aren't going to help with that any more than Darkvision would. As to SEALs weapons... depends on their mission profile as to what they're carrying. If they're doing a quiet intelligence gathering insertion, they're probably not going in loaded all that heavily. Different missions require different weapons and all that.
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 07:05 PM	Darkness negates most light sources, creating magical darkness... NVGs aren't going to help with that any more than Darkvision would. -Darkness would have no effect on Infravision, and Thermal Imaging devices. And, according to Mifelhagen, "Here's the thing about the nightvision goggles: They will have thermal imaging capabilities."
Stigger 12-13-07, 08:17 PM	As in thermographic sight, ala predator? Not that I'm aware of... most work off of the principle of light amplification and such. Sure they pick up light in the infrared spectrum, but if that light isn't getting through the Darkness, then its of no use. Certainly there are imaging devices that pick up on thermal radiation rather than light sources, but those aren't likely to be in the hands of a SEAL team, unless its for a sniper scope. Usually, as far as I'm aware anyway, actual thermal imagers are for the most part vehicle mounted, and rarely used for much beyond SAR and CT stuff. I've no idea why a Darkness spell wouldn't block the IR and UV light spectrum along with the normal visible light spectrum. Just to clarify my point, there's a world of difference between being able to see in the IR spectrum and being able to see a thermal image. They're two very different things.
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 08:29 PM	Just to clarify my point, there's a world of difference between being able to see in the IR spectrum and being able to see a thermal image. They're two very different things. -I'm just going by what Mifelhagen said there. I know nothing on the subject. All I know is that Thermal Imaging allows one to see heat, thus Infravision. Night Vision simply magnifies existant light, thus Darkivison in green.
Bullet06320 12-13-07, 08:42 PM	[QUOTE=Mifelhagen;14574401] Next test, bullet: let electronics work and see what happens. :) QUOTE] Ok, no prob, next time group gets together we'll run it and see what happens. I'don't think it will be a big difference, but sometimes the dice roll funny no matter what you do. I'm Thinking about rolling a Group of SF Troopers intead for it though, I'm more familar with how they are set up and how they operate than with seals And Stigger you are correct the equiptment and weopons load would very depending on the mission. Search and destory: more heavily loaded Ambush: More Claymores Light Recon: Lighter loads ETC, ETC, ETC As far as the size of Thermal Equiptment goes, I recently came across a flipped over car on some backroads with the driver missing. The PD and FD where using flashlights untill one of the Fire guys pulled out some Thermal gear to search the woods. It was the size of a large thermos, maybe a foot long, 4inchs or so on each side and hade a pistol grip. Pretty portable and costs about 20,000$ from what I was told, and i have seen similar Riffle scopes in the past. Pricey, but works. Thermal gear would probably penetrate the Darkness Globe, But othe NVG wouldn't. A sniper would probably be the only one carrying thermal gear unless the mission paramaters specified for any one else to have. Snipers always want the best scopes for any conditions when out in the field, because sometimes they are called upon for new missions when in the field already
Stigger 12-14-07, 12:19 AM	Sure, the SAR stuff is very portable, they've been that way for at least a decade, my point is that its not in frequent use by the military, and a lot of the stuff they do use is vehicle mounted. Could be its changed since last I looked though. I really tried to get into the military back in my youth, but got disqualified for a spinal issue I didn't even know I had... cut my flirtation with the military rather short to say the least. Problem with using a scope and the like in a Darkness spell though... how exactly would you see the image in the scope through the darkness? Don't really see a way for that to work unless its got a neural interface with you or something that bypasses vision.
Bullet06320 12-17-07, 04:02 AM	Actually the 3rd infantry Division has been field testing more and more moble eletroninc equiptment including thermal scopes and a bunch of other neat gear that I'm not sure what it all does yet in Iraq for at least the past two years. But for Game purposes regular NVG wouldn't work in magical Darkness zone but Thermal should work fine based on the way the Darnkness spells are written and the gear works, assuming you have access to it and it functions properly. DM call or house rule type thing
Stigger 12-17-07, 04:05 AM	Only problem is that you probably couldn't see the display through the darkness if you were in it. Shouldn't affect it if its outside of it though.
Bullet06320 12-17-07, 04:12 AM	good point. Judgement call i geuss if it was a scope you were looking through but good point
Khaelieth 12-17-07, 09:09 AM	I know I'll be shouted at for this, but... SEALS aren't all that. Too many films about them. Get some S.A.S. lads. My mate was up training with them [SEALS] and they ****** off everyone because: 1. My mate was a mechanic. They were careless with their equipment. Kept smashing up their boats, wrecking their engines etc. Real pain in the backside. 2. They were LOUD. And always wanted to blow things up, being cocky and such. 3. They got the living daylights kicked outta them during a specific training scenario. The scenario: A village is held by enemy forces, the SEALS are to go search and destroy on them. Both sides pick things to prepare before it begins. The SEALS weren't able to call up on an airstrike (which was what they wanted to do) so they got some recon intel or something. Not quite sure what their options were. Nobody knew what the other side had done. This was in the north of Norway midwinter, by the Atlantic, so it's FREEZING. What happened: The SEALS then run up to the first building they find and sit huddling inside due to the cold. After a few minutes, the Umpire walks up to them. "Lads, the building was booby trapped and you didn't even try to check if it was. You're all dead." That was them against Norwegians doing their national service. I'm putting my money on the drow. EDIT: Teh lulz, pi'ssed got censored. It's not even swearing!
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 03:41 PM	-Replace SEALs with SAS, Rangers, M4, whatever you want. The idea was for a "generic" Special Forces organization.
Bullet06320 12-18-07, 04:30 AM	Like I said, not that familar with seals other than what i've read and seen in movies, Rangers and SF is a different story though
Stigger 12-18-07, 07:22 AM	Not much really out there about them to be honest, beyond a couple of fairly dubious books and documentaries. Kinda odd how classified their activities seem to be, considering how much is generally available on the rest of SOCOM. I'd guess with the whole littoral region focus that the Navy has tended towards the last few decades, they're kept pretty busy though.
Warning 12-19-07, 12:56 PM	This is what I think of your stupid magic vs technology. http://youtube.com/watch?v=9HxNyN7ouN0
Lord Karsus 12-19-07, 01:53 PM	This is what I think of your stupid magic vs technology. http://youtube.com/watch?v=9HxNyN7ouN0 -Uh, you do realize that Brian Fury is, like, animated via magic, or something like that, and that Yoshimitsu (who that looked like), it a robot, or something to that effect.
Warning 12-19-07, 02:22 PM	-Uh, you do realize that Brian Fury is, like, animated via magic, or something like that, and that Yoshimitsu (who that looked like), it a robot, or something to that effect. LK! Did you not see the sword fail vs the gun? They are both cyborgs, BUT! Gun>Sword.
Lord Karsus 12-19-07, 03:24 PM	LK! Did you not see the sword fail vs the gun? They are both cyborgs, BUT! Gun>Sword. -Yes, and then I watched the Yoshimitsu ending, and saw Yoshimitsu pwn Brian Fury.
Stigger 12-19-07, 06:54 PM	So we're pointing to fiction to prove a fictional point? Does that mean I can write a short story about SEALs getting pwned by Drow, and then point to it as evidence that Drow>SEALs? :P
Lord Karsus 12-19-07, 11:57 PM	So we're pointing to fiction to prove a fictional point? Does that mean I can write a short story about SEALs getting pwned by Drow, and then point to it as evidence that Drow>SEALs? :P -Apparently so. Though, the Tekken series is a good video game series. Not as good as Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat, however. -Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is still the best individual fighting game, though.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-20-07, 11:41 AM	SoulCalibur for me (Great controls and OUTSTANDING stories!!)
Suin Bahhar 12-20-07, 03:11 PM	I like Tekken and SoulCaliber. I never fully grasped Tekkens storyline for most characters. Favourite characters are Taki, Nightmare, Xianhua, Yunsung, Hwoarang, Jin, Eddy Gordo, Ling.
Warning 12-24-07, 07:47 PM	So ok yes, a fantasy buffed fictional character such as a drow would beat a real soilder such as a seal. But if you want to get technical, a fictional gun soilder would wipe the floor with a drows ass anyday, I'd have my money on the convenant being able to glass a planet with TECHNOLOGY fleet slipstream cruisers vs a Drow named Drizzt who has lived for centuries perfecting sword fighting that can't beat a human 40 years old named Artemis. Hey drow lovers, how about I remake my name xxSeperothxxNarutoxxGarraxxGoku3932582xx SuperSamuriaxxOMGEAxxNinjaxxAwesomenessx x1337xxGheyxxxMyLifeFortheHordexxx!!!!!! !!! AWWW SOO COOL. Swords always beats guns, good job guys!
Straploknight 12-24-07, 11:04 PM	Please, don't restrain your emotions, tell us how you really feel? :P
GothicDan 12-25-07, 12:23 AM	Nukes beat guns. And Drow Archmages have the equivalent of nukes, whereas marines.. Don't.
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 01:41 AM	-EB, stop being a dick. I'm arguing on the same side that you are, but stop being stupid about it. Swords always beats guns, good job guys! -But, in the end, I think Indiana Jones sums this up best. And Drow Archmages have the equivalent of nukes, whereas marines.. Don't. -Of course, but Drow Archmagi aren't involved in this theoretical situation.
Mifelhagen 12-26-07, 12:23 AM	Nukes beat guns. And Drow Archmages have the equivalent of nukes, whereas marines.. Don't. Drow Archmages are NOT the equivalent of nukes. The only time you see any magic using elf with the equivalent of nuclear power is in their history books - knowledge which they conveniently lost. Even then it wasn't the Drow doing the nuking, it was the so called lesser elves. And even then it was a long drawn out ritual to get that much energy and power in the first place. At best, Archmages are equivalent to a dozen tanks in terms of brute force and power - thats only when they are prepared or, else they go down like first graders to bullies.
Derren S. 12-26-07, 03:42 AM	A high level mage is certainly much more powerful than a few tanks thanks to all his "misc" spells. When he summons something with high DR his destructive power is much bigger than those of a nuke and don't forget his teleportation abilities. A single necromancer or even Shadowdancer can destroy the whole world as the "real world" has nothing to defend against a Shadow.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 03:44 AM	A single necromancer or even Shadowdancer can destroy the whole world as the "real world" has nothing to defend against a Shadow. -A flashlight.
Stigger 12-26-07, 04:46 AM	... Creates shadows as it illuminates... so no.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 05:02 AM	... Creates shadows as it illuminates... so no. -It creates mundane, non-threatening shadows, though. Those are the shadows that we like. -There was a video game, and a subsequent movie based on something like that. Can't remember for the life of me the title, though. It was a PS1 game.
Derren S. 12-26-07, 06:50 AM	-It creates mundane, non-threatening shadows, though. Those are the shadows that we like. -There was a video game, and a subsequent movie based on something like that. Can't remember for the life of me the title, though. It was a PS1 game. Considering that shadows can go through walls a flashlight is not that of a good weapon against one (except it can go through a wall too). Also isn't a shadow not only powerless in sunlight and not if artificial light? The SRD does not list any light vulnerability.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 07:12 AM	Considering that shadows can go through walls a flashlight is not that of a good weapon against one (except it can go through a wall too). -What are we talking about here? I'm talking about normal ol' shadows. Shadows cannot go through solid objects. That's why, when you have a shadow on the ground, it "climbs" up the wall. It doesn't go through it. Light can't go through a solid, opaque object, either.
GothicDan 12-26-07, 10:44 AM	Gamma rays can, and often do. You should be saying gamma rays visible to human eyes cannot do X or Y. Shadows, however, CANNOT go through things, because they are ABSENCE of visible gamma rays.
Derren S. 12-26-07, 10:51 AM	I thought it was obvious that when I use the word "Shadow" and "Necromancer" in the same sentence then I don't mean normal "there is no light" shadows...
GothicDan 12-26-07, 11:16 AM	It wasn't.
Stigger 12-26-07, 12:16 PM	I thought it was perfectly obvious what Derren was saying... but then again I try to avoid getting hung up on such precise language and semantics as to make reasonable discussion all but impossible. :P
GothicDan 12-26-07, 12:17 PM	I consider it on the fault of the originator when diction isn't precise. Assuming makes an ass out of you and me, and all.
Stigger 12-26-07, 12:20 PM	Precision of diction should hardly be requisite unless one is indulging in the semantics of formal debate. And somehow a thread about both SEALs and Drow hardly qualifies for such formal clap-trap... and I'm not even going to go into how much that tired 'assuming' garbage annoys me.
GothicDan 12-26-07, 12:24 PM	I've seen way too many arguments arise from ambiguous languages, OUTSIDE of formal debate sessions. You don't see scientists going to war or having huge 'debates' about semantics like you do others. About theories, equations, sure, but not actual diction. Lack of precise language is a sign of either ignorance or laziness - neither of which are traits I find laudable.
Stigger 12-26-07, 12:35 PM	It's SEALs and Drow... how serious could it possibly be? Beyond that, starting arguments over the lack of precise language is just as silly as getting into one over imprecise language. If its a problem, ask for a clarification of meaning rather than making assumptions over intent and definition with such a literal eye. This is a liberal arts sort of thing, not scientific debate afterall. :P
GothicDan 12-26-07, 12:42 PM	You do realize that it was imprecise language here that started the conflict, right? We barely have debates in science, since we all already use proper language. It saves a lot of time, and is one of the reasons science has grown by such leaps and bounds - no idiotic language barriers. :)
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-26-07, 01:19 PM	Im pretty sure I will sound "idiotic" or "imprcise" or simply make no freaking sense to Dan, but I like have debates. Actually my closest friends are the ones I bearly have anything in common with, mainly because of the differnt points of veiw. I can't put it in to words really... not in english anyways...(BTW that's an other factor to concider)
Stigger 12-26-07, 02:06 PM	You do realize that it was imprecise language here that started the conflict, right? We barely have debates in science, since we all already use proper language. It saves a lot of time, and is one of the reasons science has grown by such leaps and bounds - no idiotic language barriers. :) Of course I realize that. I also realize that had it not been for a strange adherence to semantics and insistance on a standard of precision, the conflict wouldn't have arisen in the first place. Beyond that Ody raised a good point about language barriers... there's certainly not a monoculture present on these boards. Regardless of that however, it doesn't change the fact that I still agree with Derren in this particular regard. :P
GothicDan 12-26-07, 08:33 PM	I actually love debates. I was the first Negative on the Varsity Debate team in high school. :)
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 12:11 AM	Beyond that Ody raised a good point about language barriers... there's certainly not a monoculture present on these boards. -Sure there is. We all live in caves, apparently: http://www.tangomag.com/20072714/why-geeks-are-the-new-chic.html/2
Bullet06320 12-27-07, 12:53 AM	LK, speak for yourself, I live in car most of the time, I'm a cabdriver. on another note, I have been rethinking how I made the seal characters, been working on a prestige class that makes more sense than a base class. at least on requirement would be Swim 8 ranks, and the Endurance feat Seals are after all glorified divers when you look at them planning on making it ten levels, a fighter/Rogue combo If you look at navy seals in the real world, they come from different backgrounds and have different training in the navy, so you end up with a bunch of guys with different skills that are then trained the same with a bunch of new skills looking for some different ideas and options to consider
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 01:22 AM	LK, speak for yourself, I live in car most of the time, I'm a cabdriver. -Cabs are very much like caves, at times. If you look at navy seals in the real world, they come from different backgrounds and have different training in the navy, so you end up with a bunch of guys with different skills that are then trained the same with a bunch of new skills -For requirements, you can pick whatever skills you think they would be preficient in, and then can say, "A combination of X skill points spread over the following skills: A, B, C, D..." -That's not anything I've seen in any PrC before, but it works.
Bullet06320 12-27-07, 07:26 AM	-Cabs are very much like caves, at times. usually warmer this time of year though and interesting idea about the skillpoints
Stigger 12-27-07, 09:19 AM	Speaking of skill points, I'm pretty impressed with SW:Saga's new skill system. Really hope that makes it into 4e actually.
Derren S. 12-27-07, 09:36 AM	Speaking of skill points, I'm pretty impressed with SW:Saga's new skill system. Really hope that makes it into 4e actually. I like the 3E skill system. The skill system which gets discussed on these board for 4E (I think it is SAGA) has imo some problems. First it makes characters into superhumans where everyone can do everything, at least the basics. But giving characters some advanced skills in something which is not on his class list is nearly impossible. At least thats how I understand it. If that is true 3E skills > SAGA skills.
Stigger 12-27-07, 09:41 AM	Nah, just 1/2 class level forms the base skill rating, modified by training (+5), ability mods, skill focus (+5), and other modifiers, be they from other feats or talent trees, or whatever. I much prefer it myself, versus the constant balancing act that distributing skill points usually forced on me. Higher level, better all around, but still only a +10 base skill at 20th level.
Derren S. 12-27-07, 09:50 AM	Nah, just 1/2 class level forms the base skill rating, modified by training (+5), ability mods, skill focus (+5), and other modifiers, be they from other feats or talent trees, or whatever. I much prefer it myself, versus the constant balancing act that distributing skill points usually forced on me. Higher level, better all around, but still only a +10 base skill at 20th level. I rather have characters who have their strong and weak points than characters who can do everything. Some people like this whole superhuman image the PCs get in 4E but I like my character to be, at least at first, a normal (demi)human and not something inherently better than every NPC.
Stigger 12-27-07, 09:59 AM	Not really superhuman at all from what I've seen. Don't even get a bonus to your skills until 2nd level, and trained skill aren't automatic, they're at Int Mod+#, so the +5 trained bonus isn't a certain thing for all that many class skills unless you have a high Int score. PrC's don't add to them either from what I've seen... and the skill focus thing is going to require spending a feat on. Sure you get a lot of feats, but those only go so far. Feats seem to be pretty toned down from what I can tell.
Derren S. 12-27-07, 01:23 PM	Yet adventurers will still be better than everyone mundane just because they are adventurers. It doesn't matter that they never touched a musical instrument in their life, with level 10 they are as good as a trained person in playing them. I like to have my PCs to work for something, not becoming very good just because they are high level adventurers.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 02:24 PM	usually warmer this time of year though -Unless you live in a cave near a volcano. and interesting idea about the skillpoints -Yeah, a little unorthodox, but it works. I like the 3E skill system. The skill system which gets discussed on these board for 4E (I think it is SAGA) has imo some problems. First it makes characters into superhumans where everyone can do everything, at least the basics. -Agreed.
Stigger 12-27-07, 06:48 PM	I suspect that one of the reasons that the bard class is apparently being delayed is because of things just like that Derren. I'm suspecting that the system is going to have to be a bit reworked due to the broader skills available in D&D, but as a base, its not a bad concept. Makes character generation much faster and easier to understand though, I'll say that much. I'm pretty sure it would break D&D if it were imported as is, but I doubt that will be the case since we'd probably already have 4e in our hands were that the case.
Bullet06320 12-28-07, 06:22 AM	[QUOTE=Lord Karsus;14679641]-Unless you live in a cave near a volcano. QUOTE] That would make the cave a little warm no matter what time of the year, maybe even homey feeling in the cold months And haven't seen much of whats planned for 4th edition, i'll decide when its published and I own it
Warning 12-28-07, 12:02 PM	You guys make sure that if you should ever join the military, tell your staff sargent that you refuse a M4, and you demand a Katana. You will make him proud! Swords for life guys, and drow too. Cuz when you get shot at, make sure to slice those bullets in half! By the way Derren S., send me some Heaven shall burn and Caliban. I love German metal, but never understood why all foreign metal bands sing in english, guess they are greedy, but anyway, Um, I will be your best friend forever and marry you if you lend me some German metal over aim or something.
GothicDan 12-28-07, 12:11 PM	There is only one reason to join the military: men. And I can find those without having to be yelled at. Much.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 12:48 PM	There is only one reason to join the military: men. -That's the Navy.
GothicDan 12-28-07, 12:50 PM	I thought military included all of the armed forces?
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 01:01 PM	-No, no. I'm saying the Navy is specifically what you want. I've heard stories...Someone I used to know joined the Navy straight out of high school. She was, to put it lightly, extremely attractive- blonde hair, blue eyes, well proportioned (kinda dumb, but what are you gonna do?). One of the reasons she joined- I think- was to be...to put it lightly, a "ragdoll", if you catch my drift. A two years later (about two years ago), we saw each other again at a Boy Scouts dinner- I was supposed to give a speech about something, and her mother knew the recipient of the award, and thus, she was there. Anyway, to make a long story short, someone at the table joked was joking around, saying that the Navy was gay, and she verified it, somewhat. She mentioned that a lot less guys hit on her than she thought. So...
GothicDan 12-28-07, 01:03 PM	I've read stories. I mean, uh. How about them Drow vs. Seals? Arf arf.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 01:14 PM	How about them Drow vs. Seals? -Drow trump seals easily. They have friggin' flippers! What the hell are they supposed to do?
GothicDan 12-28-07, 01:28 PM	Flip the Drow off? Eat fish at them?
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 01:33 PM	-"Eat fish at them" > anything the Drow can do. -Well, looks like the seals win after all. Go figure.
Suin Bahhar 12-28-07, 01:51 PM	:rofl:
Stigger 12-28-07, 02:08 PM	Don't forget the rubber balls and horns... seals>drow any day.
Bullet06320 12-29-07, 09:21 AM	You guys make sure that if you should ever join the military, tell your staff sargent that you refuse a M4, and you demand a Katana. You will make him proud! Swords for life guys, and drow too. Cuz when you get shot at, make sure to slice those bullets in half! I hate to ask stupid qustions, but Warning, just how dumb are you? if you asked any sgt for a katana instead of the riffle your issued, you would get laughed at and made to do a lot more pushups. And if you can slice a bullet in mid air with a sword, I want to see proof. it takes years to train with a Katana, I am familar with but not that great with one. and with the navy being gay, I live near a Navy base, Submarines specifically, alot of gay and questionable sailors have been and are stationed there
Bullet06320 12-29-07, 09:22 AM	so far in the Drow versus Seals thing we been arguing here for 19 pages, with what I ve played out in simulated D&d campaigns, drow win most of the time
Lord Karsus 12-29-07, 09:24 AM	and with the navy being gay, I live near a Navy base, Submarines specifically, alot of gay and questionable sailors have been and are stationed there -And, here I always thought until recently that that was an urban myth. While the percentage of gays in the Navy might be a little higher than gays in the Army, Marines or Air Force, I'm sure they are still a minority by quite a bit, as compared to heterosexuals.
GothicDan 12-29-07, 10:16 AM	That's almost certainly true, LK. But hot damn. Navy, here I come. Stuck in a submarine for months? Not many alternatives but to be gay.
Lord Karsus 12-29-07, 10:31 AM	Stuck in a submarine for months? Not many alternatives but to be gay. -That's where manly magazines and shore leave come in handy.
GothicDan 12-29-07, 11:07 AM	Manly magazines. Heh. Heh.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-30-07, 04:20 PM	As soon as i go back on post I'll ask my NCO for a Katana just for kicks...
Derren S. 12-30-07, 05:14 PM	As soon as i go back on post I'll ask my NCO for a Katana just for kicks... Do that. That sounds like a great addition to Skippy's List (http://skippyslist.com/?page_id=3)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-30-07, 05:47 PM	That's almost certainly true, LK. But hot damn. Navy, here I come. Stuck in a submarine for months? Not many alternatives but to be gay. Or at least not claustrophobic (*shudders*).
Straploknight 12-30-07, 07:23 PM	As soon as i go back on post I'll ask my NCO for a Katana just for kicks... Remeber its all a cover up when he laughs and says he doesn't know what your talking about. Delta is nothing compared to Ninja Force! Well actually its the Pirate Ninja Force because there is no lose in Pirate Ninjas anywhere and only a stalemate against Ninja Pirates.
Bullet06320 12-31-07, 12:42 AM	As soon as i go back on post I'll ask my NCO for a Katana just for kicks... I'd love to hear what happens, good luck
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 04:40 PM	-It was loading slow, so I just clicked on a random point. Even without volume, disturbing. And, I love Youtube comments. Sometimes, the random and innane comments are funnier than the videos themselves.
Warning 12-31-07, 04:45 PM	-It was loading slow, so I just clicked on a random point. Even without volume, disturbing. And, I love Youtube comments. Sometimes, the random and innane comments are funnier than the videos themselves. Too bad no volume It's like eating, we could just eat food and survive, but what's the fun without being able to taste it? Get you're volume working.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 04:59 PM	Too bad no volume It's like eating, we could just eat food and survive, but what's the fun without being able to taste it? Get you're volume working. -It's easier to just leave it off. Turning it on means leaning forward and pressing the button on the speakers...Too much.
WizO_Keldar 12-31-07, 11:43 PM	There are several reasons for me to chime in here; 1.) reported posts 2.) off-topic posting 3.) inappropriate satire 4.) inappropriate posting 4.) off-topic posting Let's not continue in this direction. Try to get back to the intended subject of this thread, without the real world stereo-types and insults that go with it. As well, it would benefit everyone to stop calling other members dumb, stupid, etc. Thanks.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 05:59 AM	A lot of the arguments for a S.E.A.Ls victory have thus far underestimated the drow, unaccounted for the prevalence of magic and magic items, overestimated the capabilities of the S.E.A.Ls, perhaps ignored the stipulations of the OP; that the S.E.A.Ls are 17th level give or take (BAB of 17) and that the drow are 20th level give or take (BAB of 20) rather than 1st level, etc. Let's set them at a more believable benchmark. Let's make them 14th level; I'd imagine 14th level is the absolute pinnacle of S.E.A.Ls prowess, while 14th level drow are sitting on the elite stratum; there's only 6th more levels to go before they hit 20th level after all. Let's also indulge ourselves to make things more interesting. The technology of the humans functions as is in their (our) world. And let's also set it in the Faerunian Underdark for added awesomesauce. This'll mean they would need to resort to infrared or ultraviolet tracking technology to locate the drow, as nightvision wouldn't work (nightvision specifically requires illumination to function, whether it be moonlight or starlight). Their infrared or ultraviolet may not be as "advanced" as innate drow darkvision, with the consequence of it being unable to differentiate between subtle heat signatures, etc. The SEALS on the other hand are going to light up as beacons in the Underdark. The SEALs' best bet in this situation may be actually be the traditional torch, this has the added benefit of blinding the drow; drow suffer from light blindness. Let's also give the SEALs excellent equipment, at least what they are used to. This'll probably mean M16 carbines with an attached grenade launcher, desert eagles or berettas, combat knife, camouflaging combat fatigues, etc; but only conventional weaponry, but let's indulge ourselves and them a +1 MW bonus because of the quality of workmanship. To navigate the Underdark, let's give the SEALs two 6-man sweeper teams, with specialists in each. They're elite, no doubt about that. Their opponents, the drow, let's outfit them with the standard items relative to their level. This'll mean access to magic items and the like. Boots of elvenkind and piwafwi cloaks for added concealment and stealth, rings of protection, rings of magic missile, cloaks of displacement, enchanted arms and armor, etc. The drow favor adamantine, and its use would confer all the benefits it brings to the table. Let's also separate the drow patrol/raiding party into two teams of 6 with the iconic positions - wizard, cleric, rogue, fighter or other - we have many more options available - duskblade, hexblade, assassin, shadowdancer, scout, psion, psychic warrior, etc. The drow wizard and cleric ensures that the parties do not suffer much. From judicious castings of stoneskin to ironguard (rendering the target immune to nonmagical weapons, making the drow immune to bullets) to walls of force and fireball. Magic items worn by the drow, especially piwafwis, and their innate spell-likes abilities - levitation, faerie fire, globes of darkness (for distractions; globes of darkness are impenetrable to the eyes of even those with darkvision) are going to swing the battle to their favor. With the wizard protected by the fighter, the cleric alternatively casting heals and destructive magicks and the rogue striking crucial hits at opportune moments; sneak attack then melt away into the shadows. With an assassin, it'd be worse; they'd be making sure to death attack. There's also the array of magic. For the wizard, there's: Summon monster VII, greater teleport, mass hold person, insanity, power word blind, symbol of stunning, delayed blast fireball, forcecage, grasping hand, mage's sword, prismatic spray, mass invisibility, project image, simulacrum, finger of death, symbol of weakness, waves of exhaustion, control weather, ethereal jaunt, reverse gravity, statue, limited wish. And they're only 7th level core spells. For the cleric, there's: Blasphemy, control weather, mass cure serious wounds, destruction, mass inflict serious wounds, regenerate, repulsion, greater restoration, summon monster VII. Again, only 7th level core spells with no domain spells. It's not that magic > tech, it's that magic and magic items present too many options and benefits that tip the scales to its favor.
Stigger 01-02-08, 06:35 AM	Control Weather in the Underdark? Seems a bit silly, but otherwise I'd agree with the ideas you've got there. ;)
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 06:42 AM	Yep, control weather in the Underdark. Have you perused the War of the Spider Queen novels? The wizards used that spell to douse fires and perhaps drown some ambitious drow elves and/or slaves.
Stigger 01-02-08, 06:46 AM	Don't read novels actually. Seems kinda hard to control weather in a place that really shouldn't have any weather to begin with though... stuff like that is probably a big contributor as to why I don't actually.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 06:49 AM	They start off pretty good, but drag. Re the spell, you don't actually have to take the existing weather and change it, you can call forth weather appropriate to what you want to achieve. It's actually a very intelligent spell if you know how to use properly. While non-specific, the spell can shape the terrain and battlefield to your favor, giving you additional strategic options.
Stigger 01-02-08, 06:54 AM	Sure, outside... I know it could be used that way RAW, but I still think its uber-cheese. As to WotSQ, I'm not much of a drow fan, much less Lolth, so not much interest in it for me.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 06:59 AM	It doesn't have to be outside. I specifically mentioned it to be used in this context for its strategic value. And it's not uber-cheese; you're essentially birthing a new effect, for tactical benefit. Uber-cheese and a control weather spell cast in a cavern is mutually exclusive.
Stigger 01-02-08, 07:01 AM	You're entitled to your opinion of course. I just happen to disagree with it. ;)
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 07:05 AM	I take it you haven't considered the tactical benefits of the spell cast "indoors," as it were. What about it makes it uber-cheese?
Stigger 01-02-08, 07:12 AM	Weather is outside, at least in my book. From what I recall it takes some time for the weather to show up, and pulling weather from somewhere into a building or cave just doesn't quite work for me as anything but cheesy. Sure you could say that you're conjuring up the weather yourself, but the transmutation school bit kills that idea for me. Were it conjuration, I could swallow it, but...
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 07:18 AM	It's a spell effect, to mark it as cheese is akin to remarking that casting fireball in a crowded room with monsters is cheesy. And you're not pulling weather from outside or from/through an extraneous source, you're essentially crafting it yourself. Again, it's a spell effect, it needn't conform to principles of reality. Kinda like why we have portals to the Elemental Plane of Fire in the volcanos along the coastline of Chult. Why ships can traverse through the bedrock of Waterdeep to some distant ocean in Faerun via a portal. I agree that some spells are mislabeled in their schools, healing spells should be in the necromancy school for instance, but we have to make do with what we have.
Stigger 01-02-08, 07:24 AM	I don't have a problem when its cast outside, just in interior settings. The spell itself isn't cheesy, just that particular use of it, at least from my perspective. Were it a conjuration effect that pulled it from somewhere as a summoning, I could respect the idea. Hells, its giving me ideas for a scaled down version of it in conjuration at a lower level, but the 2-mile radius circle used indoors or underground? That's just silly.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 07:31 AM	The point of the spell is to modify existing environmental effects or call forth any of your own. That's not my opinion, that's what the spell effect does. I'm just utilisting it in an intelligent manner; we're talking about drow after all. Calling forth the spell in an enclosed setting is what the spell is meant to do, and it's a great use of the spell. If anything, it sounds like you have a problem with the spell itself rather than the application of it in question. Haven't you heard of magic-users casting weather changing spells indoors? What about the cool image of a druid creating crashing thunder and sleets of rain in a wooded indoor setting carpeted with creeping vine and luxuriant moss? As for the spell being silly, kinda like how healing is in the conjuration school silly?
Stigger 01-02-08, 07:40 AM	2-mile circle is meant to be used in an enclosed setting? Hard to swallow that one to say the least... 10' to 30' radius/level I could definitely see being used tactically indoors or underground, but not 2 miles. As to spellcasters casting weather spells indoors, no, can't say I've run across that one too often unless its a semi-permanent effect for their own purposes. Can't say I've really pondered the idea of rain coming from the ceiling either, unless it was from a Cloudburst spell, which I'm not even sure made it to 3e. Don't recall Call Lightning being useable indoors either, though it really hasn't come up for me for a good long while, so the memory might be a bit hazy on it. And no, I don't really think healing being in conjuration is all that silly if you look at it from the perspective of summoning positive energy to accomplish a specific effect, and channeled in a particular sort of way to accomplish the goal of the spell. But really, if you and your DM like to use the spell that way, it doesn't bother me in the slightest, its just not something I'm going to do in my own game.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 07:49 AM	Don't recall Call Lightning being useable indoors either, though it really hasn't come up for me for a good long while, so the memory might be a bit hazy on it. -It isn't? Oh boy, have I got a surprise for my power-gaming Druid, who constantly is using that. I simply thought he was going by the rules, and never bothered to check. Let's see here... -...Nope. The text says the spell works indoors. Oh well...
Stigger 01-02-08, 07:51 AM	Does it? Oops... ah well, don't have any druids playing, haven't for a while, so no biggie for me. :D
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 07:52 AM	Do you have any idea how unbelievably huge some of those caverns are? 2 miles is nothing. And nowhere does the spell enforce upon the caster any restrictions upon size of effect radius. The total area of effect could be a 2-mile radius, but it doesn't have to be "limited" to that, you could cast the spell and have it effect in a 50 ft radius, for example. If you can see it used tactically underground, then you can picture a cavern with a width and height larger than 2 miles, wiki is a preferred source. And you seem to missing the point of it being a spell; it is a spell. The laws of physics and reality fall by the wayside, which you seem to be arguing for, I don't know why though, since it's a fantasy game. If you're up to it, ponder how a fireball can come into existence or how vampiric touch can drain lifeforce. You also seem a bit hazy on the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm) itself. What about chain lightning cast in a dungeon, that's been used many times. And there are examples of chain lighting being cast in the Underdark, refer to the Book of Exalted Deeds; FYI chain lighting is not vertical, rather it's a horizontal effect. It is silly since you are manipulating lifeforce and life(-energy). Conjuration should be remain as a school to be used to call or summon entities. You seem to impose a lot of arbitrary restrictions upon the spell effect.
Stigger 01-02-08, 08:14 AM	I suppose it could be in all fairness, but I've never interpreted it that way. 2 miles to me says its something meant to be used out of doors. The 10 minute casting time says its not a spell that's tactical in nature on anything but a battlefield. The 10 minute arrival and modification time for it simply reinforces that. The specific mention of both climate and season, not to mention the extremely long duration also reinforce the idea of outdoor spell for me. Nowhere does it say that the spell's area is shapable or modifiable in the description, as it usually does for spells, even with the druidic version, which doesn't say 'a circle with a radius of up to 3-miles', it simply says 'a circle with a 3-mile radius' that leaves very little ambiguity for its area of effect. This has nothing to do with physics, everything to do with what I think of as the intent of the spell, despite your impression otherwise. Like I said, if you and your DM wants to treat it that way, you're welcome to, since it doesn't say you can't per se. That's one of those DM judgement calls I think. And I'm perfectly aware of Chain Lightnings effects, and its origin from the spellcasters fingertips, though I wouldn't limit it to a horizontal plane if the caster wanted to aim it up at aerial targets. ;) As to manipulating lifeforce/energy, no you're not. You're manipulating positive energy, which affects living beings, but isn't the lifeforce itself, it simply repairs it. I could see it from the perspective that necromancy is usually used to channel negative energy, but I'd say conjuration would work for negative energy just as well going by the healing spell logic. You could probably make a decent arguement for being able to accomplish it through evocation as well. Personally, I'm of the opinion that it was done for 'political' reasons to seperate healing from the perceived evils of necromancy more than from a mechanical point of view.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 08:31 AM	So, you follow everything to the exact letter even when variations can be utilised or such a stringent following need not be undertaken? Seems counter-intuitive. As for advantageous to battle, yes, that's exactly what I'm getting at. But you also have to look at the bigger/broader picture instead of viewing through the lens of disparate components. We have the drow preparing and casting the spell, we have the drow luring the SEALs to the designated slaughter field, carefully selected beforehand to maximise attrition. While the spell perhaps benefits the most outdoors, nowhere does it specifically mention anything that denies it being cast indoors or in a like setting. As for effect radius, that's the max radius it can effect. Were it otherwise, addendums to the circle would be written, ie 2 miles+half/level or something to that effect. You can have the spell effect anywhere from and up to that radius. You seem to think that physics plays a major role in how a spell falls, ie rain that falls from above, when in fact you could have water that rains on its side or water within water. It's the same principle here, the magic of the spell supersedes and overrides the laws of gravity and reality. Of course, but I was addressing your point of it striking as per normal lightning. No, you are manipulating lifeforce/energy, that's essentially what positive energy is - lifeforce and life-energy (time to dust off your planar reading material methinks). You are manipulating the energy to repair wounds and the like, not conjuring it forth as per the summoning of otherworldly entities. It makes much more sense for you to heal someone through necromancy and in this case manipulation of life-force than conjure it. Evocation is different again.
Stigger 01-02-08, 09:03 AM	Not counter-intuitive in the slightest. Its simply following what I feel is the intent of the spell. There are more effective means of controlling a battlefield when the effect is centered around the caster. I'd disagree with the area of effect idea as well, since it doesn't say 'up to', but gives a specific area instead. Its like trying to cast a fireball that only effects a 5' radius, that just isn't how it works as far as I can tell, at least not without some serious metamagic, and I don't think it works that way even then. As to maximizing attrition, I'd say that the Drow's reaction to the weather would be considerably worse than the SEALs overall, as the SEALs are far more used to it than the Drow will ever be, and know better how to use it to their advantage. As to spells superceding the laws of physics, they do to a certain extent, but only where specifically mentioned. Nowhere does it say that gravity is altered within the area of effect. It never mentions the vector of the spell, that it can be set to produce effects from some other direction than the normal weather, since I doubt that the designers ever envisioned that anyone would try to make it rain horizontally, since that makes very little sense without altering gravity in a 2-mile radius, which is certainly beyond the capabilities of a 7th level spells. As to lightning, I was referring to Call Lightning, not Chain Lightning, which are two very different spells. As to manipulation of lifeforce, even presuming you're correct about Positive Energy equating to Lifeforce, that Positive Energy still has to come from somewhere, unless its coming straight from the caster, but I doubt that since clerical healing doesn't drain off hit points from the caster. So, you're calling it or channeling it from somewhere else, hence, conjuration. Conjuration, as evidenced by spells like Acid Fog, Melf's Acid Arrow, Fog Cloud, and the like, aren't simply limited to the summoning of creatures, but also energy forms and substances, amongst other things. Perhaps you might like to see it limited to such, but that's not really the case. As to necromantic healing, were the cleric tailoring the spell, going through the repairing step by step, then I could see the necromancy. As it stands, the cleric simply casts the spell and the the spell itself does the work in going where and doing what it needs to without the cleric directing every step. That to me, says not necromancy. The evocation point has more to do with the manipulation of energy, and so I think in that respect, Positive Energy and Negative Energy could possibly be reasoned to fall within its definitions in some respects.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 09:22 AM	Which is another way of saying that you are following it to the exact letter, again, which is counter-intuitive, since variations and modifications do and can exist. I disagree with more effective means of controlling the battlefield if the effect is centred on the caster. The caster may not have protection against the spell effect, it's likening the example to a fireball centered on the mage when the mage isn't protected from fire. Note it doesn't actually specify, it doesn't list maximum effect radius, merely listing a numerical variable? One can maneuver comfortably within those "poles." It's not at all like fireball or other spells, because fireball actually stipulates distinctly the distance covered and the radius effected, unlike control weather which merely gives a solid number. You're seriously underestimating the intelligence of the drow, why in the Nine Hells would the drow wait under the effect of the spell? That's stupid beyond all belief. No, what they want to do is to ambush the SEALs with the spell, and have only the SEALs be affected by the spell while picking off any stragglers, that's the drow way. Since the SEALs are unable to cast spells or manipulate spells, they wouldn't know how to use a spell and spell effect to their advantage. We are talking about spells here, yes? Where a fireball can exist and portals transport an individual hundred of miles to some distant shore. Already, our expectations of reality have been extinguished. While spells can function under the confines of reality, the fact that they are spells means they don't have to nor would reality much apply to them. The spell effect depends on where the caster chooses to aim his or her spell not only reality and its limitations. My mistake regarding call lightning, it's late over here, but you were wrong about it, so :P. And yes, I'm completely correct equating positive energy to lifeforce, you need to read up on the SRD or other pertinent materials, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, Planescape material, etc. No, the lifeforce need not come from an external source, from the Player's Handbook, it defines that all mortal individuals are comprised of positive energy. With healing, you are essentially manipulating and repairing that energy, you don't even have to call forth new quantities. In fact, calling forth new quantities is extraneous. With the conjuration spells, I was referring the main aim of the spell school. I'm well aware that deviations do exist, a good case may be made for those spells you've listed to belong to the evocation school. Ypur example can be used the other way round. "Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force." That to me speaks of the cleric casting the spell and doing as you say. The cleric doesn't do anything other than cast the spell, it's the spell itself that does the work. No where does it mention step by step preparation and tailoring of the spell or spells. What on earth gave you that impression?
Stigger 01-02-08, 09:52 AM	Following the letter of the rules... never had that put in a negative connotation until today. Yes, modifications and variants exist, but I'm certainly under no obligation to use them, and tend to avoid doing so in forum discussions in any event, since its generally requisite of everyone having information on said variants and modifications, which isn't always going to be the case. Though to clarify, I'm more following my own interpretation of the spirit of the rules, rather than the letter, since I've already conceeded (a while ago) that there's nothing that says it couldn't be cast indoors or underground, just that I don't think much of the idea, and that I find it cheesy. As to Fireball... it says quite specifically "20-ft.-radius spread" As for Control Weather... it says quite specifically "2-mile-radius circle, centered on you; see text", with the only mention otherwise being "a circle with a 3-mile radius." I don't see anything in the way of text that says anything about variable area of effect for either, so presumably, its a fixed area for both. As to Drow waiting under the effects of the spell, that wasn't quite what I was getting at. I was more referring to the SEALs not going walking into an area where its raining underground without expecting something really weird and freaky to be going on in there... As to spells versus reality, I'm more of the opinion that they still tend to function within the parameters of reality when it isn't specifically mentioned that they don't, since overcoming pointless reality inertia and wasting magical energy to do so doesn't seem like something a wizard would do unless it was to prove that they could, which isn't the sort of mage who goes out on patrols, if you see what I'm saying. Much easier to make a spell conform to reality and use less energy (level) than to waste it on effects that probably won't be terribly useful in all but a handful of tactical situations. Having reread the MotP and the like, I have a very different interpretation of what Positive Energy is. From my refresher read, I took it to mean that it was the enabler of life, but not necessarily life itself. My read of the PHB said that it was channeled to heal, not manipulated, so conjuration fit it just fine due to that word 'channel', and that new quantities are explicitly implied in the spell description for cure spells. Quite a bit different from manipulating life force as far as I see it. Anyway, its early here, and I'm off to sleep, so, good night.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 10:08 AM	I wasn't trying to impart negative connotations, but my point was that too closely following to the letter of anything can be restricting and self-limiting. Yes, that is your power and prerogative, and I'm under no obligation to follow the exact letter of any ruling especially in the case of it being somewhat loosely defined. I know about fireball, hence why I said it stipulates quite clearly, however, the distance covered is different to the rules underlining control weather. Concerning the radius, my point was that the spell effect is going to fall within that radius, so you could effect a 50 ft radius if there any obstacles. And I'm pretty sure the values you are stating are the max effect variables, meaning that you could very well so reduce the radius. I mean, to go with one of my earlier points, a fireball in a crowded room works equally as well, but the room isn't 20 ft in diameter. I would say that the spell effects spread out to the maximal radius given. No, and it wasn't what I was getting at by luring the SEALs. My point had the drow luring the SEALs in and blocking any exit or making it appear that no exits exist, then you unleash control weather. It makes no sense for one to tip one's hand before the prey is there. That's just stupid. They do function within the parameters of reality, I never argued against that, but they also don't necessary have to, which is my point. And it was also my point, which I feel that you are missing, is that spells already affect reality so and that casting the spell in a way that defies reality isn't going to waste energy or expend effort, since it already suspends many of realities' laws. Positive energy is the enabler, but it also sustains life. Drow and humans in D&D have positive energy within themselves, they are made of positive energy, likewise as dragons (positive energy and elemental energy) and aberrations. You could argue that channel is the same as manipulate, a more concrete can made for manipulate rather than conjure. You're channeling not conjuring; conjuring is different to channeling. There really is no conjuring involved. Good night to you too, it's too early over here (2 am), I'll probably see you tomorrow and continue to discuss these points if you're up to it. :)
Warning 01-02-08, 02:27 PM	Can you guys stop posting books. I have other things to do without feeling like I'm neglecting your posts. I think I took like 7 cigerate breaks in between pages 20+. 9mm Versus Katana Oh yeah, this video is a lie by the way, http://youtube.com/watch?v=pNiX_l-HEGM I'd like to see someone do this to a fully loaded mag without the percise aiming of the sword and bullet syncronzing. katana vs .50 machine gun http://youtube.com/watch?v=-sHTJAKN-5k&feature=related Heres how it would really happen. Yes indeed, bye drow.
Derren S. 01-02-08, 02:37 PM	Yes indeed, bye drow. Bye drow. Because they simply go invisible, suprise and slaughter the seals. And even in the unlikely event that the seals do manage to fire at the drow the magical armor will stop many attacks and the other attacks will be stopped by Protection from Arrows or Stoneskin.
Warning 01-02-08, 02:43 PM	Bye drow. Because they simply go invisible, suprise and slaughter the seals. And even in the unlikely event that the seals do manage to fire at the drow the magical armor will stop many attacks and the other attacks will be stopped by Protection from Arrows or Stoneskin. You know what. I never shot a gun before at someone. And I assume you never wielded a sword at someone before either. So how about, you take the sword, and I take the gun. And let's see who wins. All I have to do is move my finger, while you have to use your body to move to me, your arms for strength and accuracy on contact. In fact, get me a professional fencer or samurai, and I will still win without any professional training of a gun. I'll simple take a step back and unload. So let's see Derren, how about we take this hypothetical situation, and replace me with a special force team unit that excells in this area. So if I can beat a professional swordsmen with no prior training of a gun, imagine what a Seal could do to a drow.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 02:57 PM	Can you guys stop posting books. I have other things to do without feeling like I'm neglecting your posts. I think I took like 7 cigerate breaks in between pages 20+. 9mm Versus Katana Oh yeah, this video is a lie by the way, http://youtube.com/watch?v=pNiX_l-HEGM I'd like to see someone do this to a fully loaded mag without the percise aiming of the sword and bullet syncronzing. katana vs .50 machine gun http://youtube.com/watch?v=-sHTJAKN-5k&feature=related Heres how it would really happen. Yes indeed, bye drow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQPP2jsveL8 Just for you kid.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 03:02 PM	Bye drow. Because they simply go invisible, suprise and slaughter the seals. And even in the unlikely event that the seals do manage to fire at the drow the magical armor will stop many attacks and the other attacks will be stopped by Protection from Arrows or Stoneskin. Is funny that you always use that invisibility one trick pony and and sign with this: If your carefully planned adventure is easily solved by a single spell/ability, not this ability is the problem but your adventure
Warning 01-02-08, 03:04 PM	You do know that greyfox let snake beat him correct? He never felt pain because he was so adapt at killing. In MGS, "Greyfox" is a higher rank in anchievment than "snake" rank. So in fact, you just brought down my arguement and I'm back to square one.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 03:04 PM	You know what. I never shot a gun before at someone. And I assume you never wielded a sword at someone before either. So how about, you take the sword, and I take the gun. And let's see who wins. All I have to do is move my finger, while you have to use your body to move to me, your arms for strength and accuracy on contact. In fact, get me a professional fencer or samurai, and I will still win without any professional training of a gun. I'll simple take a step back and unload. So let's see Derren, how about we take this hypothetical situation, and replace me with a special force team unit that excells in this area. So if I can beat a professional swordsmen with no prior training of a gun, imagine what a Seal could do to a drow. Even tho I'm on your side kid, is not as easy as pulling the trigger, I'll put a swords man against a person not proficient with a gun
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 03:05 PM	You do know that greyfox let snake beat him correct? He never felt pain because he was so adapt at killing. In MGS, "Greyfox" is a higher rank in anchievment than "snake" rank. So in fact, you just brought down my arguement and I'm back to square one. I rest my case :D
Warning 01-02-08, 03:07 PM	Even tho I'm on your side kid, is not as easy as pulling the trigger, I'll put a swords man against a person not proficient with a gun Not if I'm more than 10 feet away you won't.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 03:26 PM	don't argue with me I KNOW about guns, that's my "bread and butter" and If i get a new "weapon system" like us Soldiers call them I this "choke". It will take me at least 30 seconds to figure it out and I'm a freaking Soldier!
Warning 01-02-08, 03:44 PM	don't argue with me I KNOW about guns, that's my "bread and butter" and If i get a new "weapon system" like us Soldiers call them I this "choke". It will take me at least 30 seconds to figure it out and I'm a freaking Soldier! Ok fine, I guess every Soilder should carry a Katana from now on. The military is so stupid wasting their time with guns. What were they ever thinking. Your so right. I bet "The Last Samurai" was your favorite movie. By the way Saraph.....http://youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BURN...what now? Can't say sh*t after that video.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 03:52 PM	gun> sword yes, SEAL>Drow obviously debatable, but I belive it so be so. 14 year old w NO EXIPIRIENCE once or ever with a gun > swordsman no,
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 04:01 PM	Ok fine, I guess every Soilder should carry a Katana from now on. The military is so stupid wasting their time with guns. What were they ever thinking. Your so right. I bet "The Last Samurai" was your favorite movie. By the way Saraph.....http://youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BURN...what now? Can't say sh*t after that video. *Ahem* http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D4DzcOCyHDqc I can do this all day.
Warning 01-02-08, 04:23 PM	gun> sword yes, SEAL>Drow obviously debatable, but I belive it so be so. 14 year old w NO EXIPIRIENCE once or ever with a gun > swordsman no, Ok it was funny for a while. But now it's getting old. You're the only one who still thinks I'm a kid. I am just as old as your or a few years younger. I was born 1987. Oh, and for the record, when I made the joke everyone took serious, I said 12, not 14.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 05:05 PM	still a kid for me... And fr the record I always known, I was trying to pull my version of this joke http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0244.html But as you well said is running old...
Stigger 01-02-08, 05:12 PM	I wasn't trying to impart negative connotations, but my point was that too closely following to the letter of anything can be restricting and self-limiting. Yes, that is your power and prerogative, and I'm under no obligation to follow the exact letter of any ruling especially in the case of it being somewhat loosely defined. I know about fireball, hence why I said it stipulates quite clearly, however, the distance covered is different to the rules underlining control weather. Concerning the radius, my point was that the spell effect is going to fall within that radius, so you could effect a 50 ft radius if there any obstacles. And I'm pretty sure the values you are stating are the max effect variables, meaning that you could very well so reduce the radius. I mean, to go with one of my earlier points, a fireball in a crowded room works equally as well, but the room isn't 20 ft in diameter. I would say that the spell effects spread out to the maximal radius given. No, and it wasn't what I was getting at by luring the SEALs. My point had the drow luring the SEALs in and blocking any exit or making it appear that no exits exist, then you unleash control weather. It makes no sense for one to tip one's hand before the prey is there. That's just stupid. They do function within the parameters of reality, I never argued against that, but they also don't necessary have to, which is my point. And it was also my point, which I feel that you are missing, is that spells already affect reality so and that casting the spell in a way that defies reality isn't going to waste energy or expend effort, since it already suspends many of realities' laws. Positive energy is the enabler, but it also sustains life. Drow and humans in D&D have positive energy within themselves, they are made of positive energy, likewise as dragons (positive energy and elemental energy) and aberrations. You could argue that channel is the same as manipulate, a more concrete can made for manipulate rather than conjure. You're channeling not conjuring; conjuring is different to channeling. There really is no conjuring involved. Good night to you too, it's too early over here (2 am), I'll probably see you tomorrow and continue to discuss these points if you're up to it. :) :P @ Warning... little 12 year old punk who needs to be spanked. ;) As I just woke up, it was 7am here by the way, the only thing my brain is in any condition, no coffee yet, to discuss at the moment is the channel issue. To me, channel says that the cleric is acting as a conduit between the target of the spell and the Positive Energy plane, and doesn't have to know anything about anatomy or physiology to accomplish the healing. That says to me that the Positive Energy is doing all of the work, not the cleric, so no manipulation of existing energy is going on to an appreciable degree, at least not on a conscious level. Hence, as a conduit is being opened between the caster's plane and the Positive Energy plane, the conjuration school makes sense to me.
Derren S. 01-02-08, 05:16 PM	You know what. I never shot a gun before at someone. And I assume you never wielded a sword at someone before either. So how about, you take the sword, and I take the gun. And let's see who wins. All I have to do is move my finger, while you have to use your body to move to me, your arms for strength and accuracy on contact. In fact, get me a professional fencer or samurai, and I will still win without any professional training of a gun. I'll simple take a step back and unload. So let's see Derren, how about we take this hypothetical situation, and replace me with a special force team unit that excells in this area. So if I can beat a professional swordsmen with no prior training of a gun, imagine what a Seal could do to a drow. Warning please read my post again. The drow won't win the combat because of swords but because of magic. Magic makes their armor stronger than heavy kevlar vests, makes them completly undetectable for the seals and deflects any bullets which would hit them. And thats why the drow would win.
Warning 01-02-08, 05:47 PM	Warning please read my post again. The drow won't win the combat because of swords but because of magic. Magic makes their armor stronger than heavy kevlar vests, makes them completly undetectable for the seals and deflects any bullets which would hit them. And thats why the drow would win. Let me ask you this. Those Drow asorby guys of meele damage. Kummerl or whatever his name is. If he got hit let's say 150 times by a sword. Do you think he could absorb it all? Ok Next question that relates to the 1st. Imagine getting hit those 150 times in a matter of 10-20 seconds. That's a gun. So if you're answer to the 1st question was no, then the answer to the 2nd should be apperant. Also please remember that a gun has a signicant amount of range. Those Drow won't be anywhere near a Seal when hit multiple times. So they won't have the benefit of using their own damage agaisnt them. (This is only if they somehow survive) But as I said before, this topic isn't too fair considering it's magic vs modern technology warfare. How about we pull Master Cheif with energy shielding as armor that is rechargable? In fact, I'm so confident of concept fantasy technology, that you could even debate them at unfair amounts of team (one Spartan-ll vs 5-7 Drow).
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 05:56 PM	But as I said before, this topic isn't too fair considering it's magic vs modern technology warfare. How about we pull Master Cheif with energy shielding as armor that is rechargable? In fact, I'm so confident of concept fantasy technology, that you could even debate them at unfair amounts of team (one Spartan-ll vs 5-7 Drow). Master Chief vs. Drow is another thread, thias one is "So about those S.E.A.Ls vs. Drow" thread. And since we going of topic for a bit "Space Marines (from Aliens)" vs Drow Now THAT an Event :D
Warning 01-02-08, 06:04 PM	Master Chief vs. Drow is another thread, thias one is "So about those S.E.A.Ls vs. Drow" thread. And since we going of topic for a bit "Space Marines (from Aliens)" vs Drow Now THAT an Event :D <snip> It wouldn't suprise me the number of people sure to show up backing the drow even agaisnt pure logic for the sake of fanboys. <snip>
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 06:12 PM	I was just joking 90% of the stuff I say are meant as a joke. <snip>
Derren S. 01-02-08, 06:28 PM	Ok Next question that relates to the 1st. Imagine getting hit those 150 times in a matter of 10-20 seconds. That's a gun. So if you're answer to the 1st question was no, then the answer to the 2nd should be apperant. 10-20 seconds are 2-3.5 rounds. Considering the low damage of guns (for that level) a stoneskin and/or protection from arrows will stop all or at least most of those attacks. And when the drow is invisible or uses blink or displacment most attacks will miss anyway. Also the drow will, because of magical armor, have a quite high AC compared to the unmagical attacks of the seals. So the Drow would be harder to hit, deal more damage and have many ways to completly immobilize, confuse or otherwise neutralize the seals through magic. The only advantage seals have is range which they can only use when the drow don't use invisibility, fog cloud or similar spells. Also because they lack any magical aid for attacks hitting the magically enhance AC of the drow will be quite hard. Edit: And if you want to talk about "real life". The drow wizards simply imagines that the seals die and they would instantly drop dead. Considering that magic isn't real you can't prove that this wouldn't play out this way...
Stigger 01-02-08, 06:33 PM	Of course SEALs are well known for their lack of fire discipline and burning through huge amounts of ammo against foes they can't necessarily see... that is afterall why the M16a2 is semi-auto/burst fire only, just to take away an unfair advantage... Seriously though, technology isn't always going to trump magic. I'd say rarely if ever it would, since its based on relatively mundane principles, the sorts of which magic is pretty much designed to mess with and manipulate. Just one very skilled fighter with invisibility and an enchanted weapon could make very short work of a group of soldiers if engaging them at point-blank range. Not only do they have to contend with an enemy in their midst, but they also have to be very careful about checking fire so as not to shoot their own guys... toss in more than one invisible fighter, add in the ability to levitate, and it just gets worse for those poor SEALs. By the same token, get those soldiers set up in an ambush position against Drow who don't necessarily know where they are, and the fight is going to be over within a few seconds with a bunch of dead drow littering the ground. It all depends on the circumstances of the individual scenario, and makes blanket statements of who would win impossible.
Straploknight 01-02-08, 07:26 PM	Hey the S.E.A.Ls are 20th level as are the Drow, in terms of BaB (I would hazard a composite index for fighting skill) the drow are the more competent fighters, but start including other factors like the superiority of the average "normal's" (D20 Modern's term for base ability stats) and that martial skill doesn't help as much as it could. At first glance I thought D20 was hard capped at 3 iterative attacks, but it turns out, you average D&D guy is far handier at combat at the same level (I would reckon that life in ancinet Faerun is a bit more harsh and in terms of pure melee combat, the ancients of Faerun had a longer tradition to call upon). Its to bad the two systems aren't more cohesive once you get past BaB, HPs, and Saves.
Stigger 01-02-08, 07:40 PM	Probably be a lot easier come 4e I'd think, presuming that Modern updates to it.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 08:20 PM	As I just woke up, it was 7am here by the way, the only thing my brain is in any condition, no coffee yet, to discuss at the moment is the channel issue. To me, channel says that the cleric is acting as a conduit between the target of the spell and the Positive Energy plane, and doesn't have to know anything about anatomy or physiology to accomplish the healing. That says to me that the Positive Energy is doing all of the work, not the cleric, so no manipulation of existing energy is going on to an appreciable degree, at least not on a conscious level. Hence, as a conduit is being opened between the caster's plane and the Positive Energy plane, the conjuration school makes sense to me. You have channeling and conjuring. Conjuring in my mind is the calling forth of entities or energy, ie summon monster or acid fog, etc. Channeling in my mind is different again, we already have a channel within the core of the body, it's just a matter of manipulating said energy to heal. It's not conjuration by any stretch. You don't have to open a conduit to the positive energy plane, because like I said, positive energy already "saturates" and permeates a mortal's being. By the way, not to sound like a broken record, but Warning and Ody Saraph, did you two even read what I and others wrote? It's like logic and coherence flew out the window when you posted. If the battle is at 20th level for both sides, it's even worse for the SEALs. The 20th level drow have too many options available; game ending spells like wail of the banshee anyone?
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 08:33 PM	Well... #1 That's a joke between me and "the kid". #2 Tha't according to your scenario acording to mine, S.E.A.L./SF have the advantage. So there :D
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 08:37 PM	Well... #2 Tha't according to your scenario acording to mine, S.E.A.L./SF have the advantage. So there :D Could you pray back up your opinion with logical arguments? Otherwise, all we can assume is that "you are wrong, because we say so, nah, nah, nah." That doesn't exactly lend itself well to your position.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 08:48 PM	Is all over this thread. I was posting as SolOdlanier, if you read the whole thing you should know... if not then I'll explain again...wait let me just look for it and link it
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 08:55 PM	Here... http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=945791&page=11 post #305 and http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=945791&page=12 post #334
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 08:57 PM	Thanks, Ody Saraph Karsus, but you're assuming that the drow don't have access to magic or magic items, and you're vastly underestimating them. As I've shown, magic and magic items present too many options and confer too many benefits. The SEALs have no chance, especially once the drow render themselves immune to bullets via ironguard and stop grenades via wall of force. Heck, even a couple of fireballs is going to clear the battle of SEALs. Let's continue with the scenario. Both SEALs and drow are 20th level. SEALs have their technology function perfectly while the drow have access to magic and magic items. Both SEALs and drow are exceptional personages of their respective CSs. The SEALs have state-of-the-art technology with advanced tracking technology and advanced arms and armor tech. The drow, even with NPC wealth, will be able to don a lot of beneficial enchantments, if they're entitled to PC wealth, the battle is going to get skewed in the favor of the drow. At 20th level, every weapon the drow wields will be adamantine, a material that is a virtually indestructible as per the SRD. They're going to be equipped with: minor artifacts, protective and magical enchanted items, life-drinking, vorpal, wounding, unholy weaponry. With magic, it's even worse. At 20th level, the drow wizard and cleric will be able to cast the following. Wizard: Imprisonment, prismatic sphere, gate, refuge, summon monster IX, foresight, dominate monster, mass hold monster, power word kill, crushing hand, meteor swarm, shades, weird, energy drain, soul bind, wail of the banshee, time stop, wish. Cleric: Energy drain, gate, mass heal, implosion, miracle, soul bind, storm of vengeance, summon monster IX, true resurrection. And they're only 9th level core spells, not counting domain spells. Already, there're some game ending spells, and I can think of many more at lower levels: ie, maze, touch of idiocy, etc.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 09:20 PM	Fair, but is not THAT easy, assuming you are talking about my scenario the'll have access to item that will protec them of a nice amount of magic (the same way a fighter 20 would). Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying is not that easy. notice tha around paga 16 0f this thread I stopped posting, beacause "Bullett", played the scenarios and the drow won 2 out of 3, and he broke down the encounter for us and I was pleased and saw no point in posting (butto harrass Warnning:P) (BTW at the tie of my posing we're talking about Drow FIGHTERS vs SEALs)
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 09:26 PM	Fair, but is not THAT easy, assuming you are talking about my scenario the'll have access to item that will protec them of a nice amount of magic (the same way a fighter 20 would). Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying is not that easy. notice tha around paga 16 0f this thread I stopped posting, beacause "Bullett", played the scenarios and the drow won 2 out of 3, and he broke down the encounter for us and I was pleased and saw no point in posting (butto harrass Warnning:P) (BTW at the tie of my posing we're talking about Drow FIGHTERS vs SEALs) Fair doesn't register in the drow vocabulary. And it would be that easy, magic and magic items are involved after all. There's just too many options and too many benefits/beneficial modifiers/enchantments. Why must the SEALs have access to items that could protect them from magic? Kinda defeats the purpose of the cross-setting hypothetical and gives the SEALs too little credit. And nothing has to be explicitly fair, it's kinda like real life in way, nothing is fair, but only what you make of it. I've also broken it down for you, but since it's not the SEALs who win, you're automatically inclined to be biased. I was presenting it from a neutral unbiased perspective, note how I gave the SEALs the best equipment they have and ensured that their tech functioned? Well, since the SEALs get to have their equipment and tech function, the drow can have access to wizards and clerics. If drow fighters are involved, the battle would be pretty much go to the drow, especially if their tech cease to function.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 10:03 PM	E'tii'stil Fair doesn't register in the drow vocabulary. And it would be that easy, magic and magic items are involved after all. There's just too many options and too many benefits/beneficial modifiers/enchantments. Well, sadly for the Drow we are in Earth, were Drow don't exist And therefore have no vocabulary so I'll stick with my word:) Why should the SEALs must have access to items that could protect them from magic? Kinda defeats the purpose of the cross-setting hypothetical and gives the SEALs too little credit. And nothing has to be explicitly fair, it's kinda like real life in way, nothing is fair, but only what you make of it. They don't Hve to But in my scenario any SEAL/SF worth his salt should.(again read post #334 for details about resouses) I've also broken it down for you, but since it's not the SEALs who win, you're automatically inclined to be biased. I was presenting it from a neutral unbiased perspective, note how I gave the SEALs the best equipment they have and ensured that their tech functioned? Hmm,:thinks: may be you misunderstood me...(I'll blame my english impareness for that.:D) When I said that I lost interrest in the thread is not because i'm baised toward SEALs it was because I was proved wrong. It was tested and the SEALs were found "outclassed" :weep: so it was thread over for me. :surrender the questiong was answered. get it? Well, since the SEALs get to have their equipment and tech function, the drow can have access to wizards and clerics. If drow fighters are involved, the battle would be pretty much go to the drow. And here I disagree. The SEALs tech is "standard issue" which is equivalent to a fighter (drow or otherwise) would have,swords, bow, arrow, potions, etc. "heavy magic" is not "infantry" is "altillery" witch is equivalent to Combat veicles such as tank, comanchees "F-22" "Destroyers" and so on...
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 10:12 PM	Well, sadly for the Drow we are in Earth, were Drow don't exist And therefore have no vocabulary so I'll stick with my word:) Sadly and unfortunately for the SEALs, they are in Faerun; stipulated by the OP. Your point about no drow existing on Earth is irrelevant. They don't Hve to But in my scenario any SEAL/SF worth his salt should.(again read post #334 for details about resouses) It's the reason why I gave them elite resources. These SEALs are elite, which is why they are at 20th level. Hmm,:thinks: may be you misunderstood me...(I'll blame my english impareness for that.:D) When I said that I lost interrest in the thread is not because i'm baised toward SEALs it was because I was proved wrong. It was tested and the SEALs were found "outclassed" :weep: so it was thread over for me. :surrender the questiong was answered. get it? It seems you have been proven wrong and out-debated again, and "your" SEALs have been outclassed again. And here I disagree. The SEALs tech is "standard issue" which is equivalent to a fighter (drow or otherwise) would have,swords, bow, arrow, potions, etc. "heavy magic" is not "infantry" is "altillery" witch is equivalent to Combat veicles such as tank, comanchees "F-22" "Destroyers" and so on... I don't exactly understand...could you be clearer? If you're arguing that SEALs should have access to magic or enchanted items because the drow do, that is wrong and flawed. Magic is not akin or equivalent to tech at all. Apples to oranges, they are entirely different.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 11:01 PM	I can be out-debated because I'm not debating. and no I can't, I am english impare fo real. but i'm pretty sure Stigger will read my post and "break it down for you, (somehow he always get what I mean)
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 11:06 PM	I can be out-debated because I'm not debating. But we were discussing. And debate is synonymous with discussion. and no I can't, I am english impare fo real. but i'm pretty sure Stigger will read my post and "break it down for you, (somehow he always get what I mean) I see, then I look forward to that. However, he and I agree that it is the drow who triumph rather than the SEALs, who slink off to lick their wounds.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 11:43 PM	9mm Versus Katana Oh yeah, this video is a lie by the way, http://youtube.com/watch?v=pNiX_l-HEGM I'd like to see someone do this to a fully loaded mag without the percise aiming of the sword and bullet syncronzing. -That's pretty crazy.
Stigger 01-03-08, 01:15 AM	You have channeling and conjuring. Conjuring in my mind is the calling forth of entities or energy, ie summon monster or acid fog, etc. Channeling in my mind is different again, we already have a channel within the core of the body, it's just a matter of manipulating said energy to heal. It's not conjuration by any stretch. You don't have to open a conduit to the positive energy plane, because like I said, positive energy already "saturates" and permeates a mortal's being. Seems like we have a fairly different view on how it works, that are pretty mutually exclusive of one another. You could define Channel either way, so I would chalk it up to something that should be left up to personal interpretation. I don't adhere to the internal channel within the core of the body theory, so that explanation doesn't work for me. I can see your point if that were the case though, its just not a view I subscribe to. You're welcome to it of course, doesn't affect me any way it goes, as its just one view of many possible. As to Ody's point of view, he's basing it off of the idea that if Drow are entitled to spellcasters, then the SEALs should be entitled to things like fire support artillery, air support of fixed and rotary wing varieties, UAV reconnaisance, and other stuff like that... JSTARS in particular would make a fairly big difference I'd think.... their technological equivalents to magic. Presuming that to be true, the firepower on a AC-130 should be enough to annhialate an entire army of Rennaisance era forces. If we're going to get particular about firearms versus things like Stoneskin, the logic if I'm following it correctly is that Stoneskin was never designed to deal with projectiles travelling at 3100 feet per second, at fire rates of 800 or better rounds per minute. The sheer velocity and volume of fire should qualify them as magical versus the spell, as nothing that the spells were designed to protect against even come vaguely close to those levels. Toss in ground-tracking radar and real-time targetting data from the JSTARS, and the situation gets progressively worse for the drow, since they have no effective counter to the EM Emissions that are tracking them. Then we get to the issue of artillery softening strikes, munitions like Mavericks, Paveways, Copperheads, and the like and its likely the drow are turned to ribbons before they even get within firing range of the SEALs in the first place. I know that this kind of support is out of the window in Faerun, but I think Ody's point was that if they were allowed to bring their full resources to bear, as Drow with spellcasters can, then the Drow are screwed from the word go.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 03:21 AM	And that's why I have to start getting english lessons, Thanks Stigg.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 03:33 AM	And that's why I have to start getting english lessons, Thanks Stigg. -Hey, you do better than I would using Spanish. I can understand it written a lot better than I can actually write it, or speak it. When I'm on the train, I like to read the public service announcement things in spanish first, then read them in english, to see how close I was.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 03:47 AM	Well I'm "forced" to use my english, Is not Hugely enforced it but bottom line if someone get offended cuz I talk spanish in front of him they can go to EO (think social worker) and complain
Derren S. 01-03-08, 03:54 AM	And here I disagree. The SEALs tech is "standard issue" which is equivalent to a fighter (drow or otherwise) would have,swords, bow, arrow, potions, etc. "heavy magic" is not "infantry" is "altillery" witch is equivalent to Combat veicles such as tank, comanchees "F-22" "Destroyers" and so on... The Wealth by Level guidelines disagree with you. For 20 level D&D characters +10 weapons and armor is standard issue.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 04:08 AM	Fine, that's what i meant, and that's not the point. The point is that E'tii was giving them "high tech" as if that should even the wealth by lv out, which it doesn't because all that "tech" is standard issue reagrdless of lv for the SEALs. feel me?
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 04:10 AM	Seems like we have a fairly different view on how it works, that are pretty mutually exclusive of one another. You could define Channel either way, so I would chalk it up to something that should be left up to personal interpretation. I don't adhere to the internal channel within the core of the body theory, so that explanation doesn't work for me. I can see your point if that were the case though, its just not a view I subscribe to. You're welcome to it of course, doesn't affect me any way it goes, as its just one view of many possible. I'm not seeing how channeling is akin to conjuring though, no matter how you twist or shape it. It's not happening for me. While you are channeling, despite how you may want to rule it, conjuring energy from external source is not happening, as I said the positive energy is already the lifeforce that is inside a mortal. There is no conjuration at all. Hence why keeping the healing spells in the Conjuration school is silly. As to Ody's point of view, he's basing it off of the idea that if Drow are entitled to spellcasters, then the SEALs should be entitled to things like fire support artillery, air support of fixed and rotary wing varieties, UAV reconnaisance, and other stuff like that... JSTARS in particular would make a fairly big difference I'd think.... their technological equivalents to magic. That's still not enough to affect the drow, especially if they have magic. Magic negates pretty much everything the SEALs can do. And it'd be against the spirit and role of the SEALs to involve heavy artillery or anything futuristic. The possibilities afforded by magic and magic items are too many. Presuming that to be true, the firepower on a AC-130 should be enough to annhialate an entire army of Rennaisance era forces. If we're going to get particular about firearms versus things like Stoneskin, the logic if I'm following it correctly is that Stoneskin was never designed to deal with projectiles travelling at 3100 feet per second, at fire rates of 800 or better rounds per minute. The sheer velocity and volume of fire should qualify them as magical versus the spell, as nothing that the spells were designed to protect against even come vaguely close to those levels. We're not talking about Renaissance era forces though. We're talking about drow, elves who have spent centuries, not decades like the SEALs, but centuries perfecting kill techniques and fighting styles. And I never said stoneskin is going to stop something like that, I and others did say that stoneskin would stop bullets. Spells like walls of force would stop your aforementioned projectile. Toss in ground-tracking radar and real-time targetting data from the JSTARS, and the situation gets progressively worse for the drow, since they have no effective counter to the EM Emissions that are tracking them. Then we get to the issue of artillery softening strikes, munitions like Mavericks, Paveways, Copperheads, and the like and its likely the drow are turned to ribbons before they even get within firing range of the SEALs in the first place. You're forgetting spells like non-detection or etherealness. Or any other spell for that matter. Even with the prescribed tech, it'd be the SEALs who are worse for wear rather than the drow. Not to mention the need for a wide area to actually move in their forces and equipment, something that magic does not need to do. I know that this kind of support is out of the window in Faerun, but I think Ody's point was that if they were allowed to bring their full resources to bear, as Drow with spellcasters can, then the Drow are screwed from the word go. You're underestimating what magic can do. It'd stop our world tech like a wall of lead stops radiation. Completely. With every advantage the SEALs bring, magic can one up it. Who will man the stations when all of them are dead through the casting of wail of the banshee. The drow could summon in lackeys and minions or even have the SEALs battle their own nearly risen undead comrades. And there's wish, meteor swarm, etc.
WizO_Mired 01-03-08, 04:14 AM	I've brought this thread to the attention of the Community Management team.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 04:15 AM	Fine, that's what i meant, and that's not the point. The point is that E'tii was giving them "high tech" as if that should even the wealth by lv out, which it doesn't because all that "tech" is standard issue reagrdless of lv for the SEALs. feel me? And you're missing our point. It doesn't do to unnecessarily conflate the resources of the opposition just because the drow have stuff that the SEALs don't. The drow do have items appropriate to their level, it's not our fault that magic or magic items exist in the world, it's a fantasy game after all. The pertinent point is: just because some force has something doesn't mean the other side need have it. It doesn't have to match up perfectly to it, which is why demons and devils are so different. It doesn't have to be totally fair because things aren't simple. Life isn't fair. Giving the SEALs conflated equipment means you have too little confidence in their capabilities and would resort over and above to what they have to what they would need to claim victory. By doing this, you move too far away from the intent of the thread in the first place. Again, I would like to remind you that I or we never gave the drow anything they weren't entitled too, merely followed the wealth guidelines as per the SRD. Even with their conflated equipment, I could name a battery of spells that would null their advantage.
Stigger 01-03-08, 04:55 AM	Different views of how Positive Energy works is what it comes down to. My suggestion is to agree to disagree on the matter and leave it at that. The Rennaisance era comment was more on their tech level rather than their training level. As to SEALs/SF types having access to artillery, I'd argue they would if the situation warranted it... the get issued those Laser Target Designators for a reason afterall, which can be used for both Copperhead artillery shells as well as Air-to-Ground munitions of various types, at least as far as I understand them. Certainly they won't be able to call in an unlimited amount of such attacks, but even a few can go a long way. Certainly magic can go a long way to counter quite a bit of it, but not all of it. Nondetection won't do a bit of good against a threat it was never intended or envisioned to counter. Airborne radar suites rely off of reflection of EM energy being emitted by the radar, which bounce off of whatever happens to be there and returns to the suites receiver, which is then translated into a map. From what I've read of it, the stuff on JSTARS is certainly capable of detecting individuals in metallic armor, which is going to make it much easier for them to be tracked really, particularly if its carrying a slightly radioactive signature, which presumably it would given the underdark's noted radiations. In a lot of respects, they'd stand out like a sore thumb to some sensor systems, nondetection active or not. Etherealness is a whole other matter, and definitely a case where magic is seriously trumping technology. It isn't even a question of artificially inflating the SEALs options and resources. They are a national asset, and they get the best support available in the context of their assigned mission. That's true of most of SOCOM's units. Attaching support units to help them out isn't all that odd a thing, particularly when you take into account that the Navy has modified SSNs specifically with the intent of those SSNs supporting SEAL operations via things like the ASDS. Tasking Billion dollar assets is a very serious thing to do, particularly for such a relatively miniscule branch of a service. The comment on wealth level actually is pretty applicable for SEALs/SF types, since they don't exactly bring in their own gear on any appreciable scale, as most of its issued to them by SOCOM or their parent service branch in some cases. In the end, what happens is decided more on the conditions and specifics of the encounter than on anything else. Who spots who first, who's ready, who isn't, where, local time, specific terrain features, high ground... there's no way to determine how its going to play out every single time. Sometimes magic is going to prove unbeatable, sometimes that's going to be true of technology. Really, there's no way to actually settle this issue in any real meaningful way.
Derren S. 01-03-08, 05:45 AM	The thread is still about seals vs drow and not the entire military industrial complex in an all out war against a single drow patrol. Seals simply have no magical weapons so they are stuck with mundane masterwork stuff which is of course much weaker than what the drows have. Thats simply how it is. You don't give them air and artillery support as compensation. That would be more like giving the drow a Mythal and demon support troops.
Stigger 01-03-08, 06:37 AM	Its hardly the entire military industrial complex. Its not exactly uncommon for a AC-130 gunship to support special forces, much less the ability to call upon significant air support in the form of things like F-15e Strike Eagles and F/A-18e Super Hornets, or even attack helicopters attached to them from the 160th SOAR. Certainly they don't have it all of the time, but the fact remains that its fairly common to attach fire support units to Special Forces units in the field if they're expected to engage hostile forces. Which was Ody's point in the first place, as far as I can tell.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 07:13 AM	Different views of how Positive Energy works is what it comes down to. My suggestion is to agree to disagree on the matter and leave it at that. No, you're wrong. The Rennaisance era comment was more on their tech level rather than their training level. As to SEALs/SF types having access to artillery, I'd argue they would if the situation warranted it... the get issued those Laser Target Designators for a reason afterall, which can be used for both Copperhead artillery shells as well as Air-to-Ground munitions of various types, at least as far as I understand them. Certainly they won't be able to call in an unlimited amount of such attacks, but even a few can go a long way. The comment involving Renaissance era armies is flawed at the offset because said army doesn't have access to magic, unlike drow. Tech level in such an environment or other arguments concerning a defeat of said army becomes irrelevant. SEALs sweeper teams are cooler than just having the cavalry show up with artillery. But, name your weapon and I'll show you how I can use magic to defeat it. Certainly magic can go a long way to counter quite a bit of it, but not all of it. Nondetection won't do a bit of good against a threat it was never intended or envisioned to counter. Airborne radar suites rely off of reflection of EM energy being emitted by the radar, which bounce off of whatever happens to be there and returns to the suites receiver, which is then translated into a map. From what I've read of it, the stuff on JSTARS is certainly capable of detecting individuals in metallic armor, which is going to make it much easier for them to be tracked really, particularly if its carrying a slightly radioactive signature, which presumably it would given the underdark's noted radiations. In a lot of respects, they'd stand out like a sore thumb to some sensor systems, nondetection active or not. Etherealness is a whole other matter, and definitely a case where magic is seriously trumping technology. I'm just bouncing off the example of nondetection, but it could work to defeat sensors and other tracking tech. There are other spells that ensure the erasure of available signs to track the enemy with, confuse and befuddle the enemy with, enfeeble the intellect of etc. With those technologies, you are making presumptions that it's going to automatically confer knowledge to the waiting party and that magic could do nothing to stop detection. This is again, flawed. If you were to factor in magic, most of the technologies could be rendered moot. Again, as there as ways to confuse humanoids with spells there are ways to confuse machines. Etherealness is more than a viable option, it's a tactic that the drow would be more than willing to exploit. It isn't even a question of artificially inflating the SEALs options and resources. They are a national asset, and they get the best support available in the context of their assigned mission. That's true of most of SOCOM's units. Attaching support units to help them out isn't all that odd a thing, particularly when you take into account that the Navy has modified SSNs specifically with the intent of those SSNs supporting SEAL operations via things like the ASDS. Tasking Billion dollar assets is a very serious thing to do, particularly for such a relatively miniscule branch of a service. Yes, it is, it totally is, that's precisely what you are doing, however you want to sidestep or deny it. Conflating resources above and beyond what the original scenario called for. Again, the point remains that should the SEALs bring in their equipment they're going to need a hell of a lot of space to put it in, something that is ultimately to their disadvantage since magic requires no such need. And if you're bringing in support troops this fails to become just about or just between the drow and SEALs - which was the point of the thread after all, it becomes the drow versus the SEALs plus allies, which is unnecessary, excessive and biased because the SEALs can't win any other way. The comment on wealth level actually is pretty applicable for SEALs/SF types, since they don't exactly bring in their own gear on any appreciable scale, as most of its issued to them by SOCOM or their parent service branch in some cases. Uh, what the special units carry is their own gear. What makes you think otherwise? It may have originally being the property of the sovereign nation, but it's now the property of the SEALs. In the end, what happens is decided more on the conditions and specifics of the encounter than on anything else. Who spots who first, who's ready, who isn't, where, local time, specific terrain features, high ground... there's no way to determine how its going to play out every single time. Sometimes magic is going to prove unbeatable, sometimes that's going to be true of technology. Really, there's no way to actually settle this issue in any real meaningful way. You'll looking at it too simple-mindedly, you're underestimating magic, overestimating tech, or perhaps not understanding what magic can do in the situation. It's not about conditions or specifics of the encounter, it's about who has want and how one force shapes the terrain and environment and battlefield to their advantage. Actually, there are very real ways of settling the issue, it's just that others, like yourself, deny it or can't see it. Like I said mentioned before, state your equipment and we and I can ensure you that magic can null the advantage provided by it. Its hardly the entire military industrial complex. Its not exactly uncommon for a AC-130 gunship to support special forces, much less the ability to call upon significant air support in the form of things like F-15e Strike Eagles and F/A-18e Super Hornets, or even attack helicopters attached to them from the 160th SOAR. Certainly they don't have it all of the time, but the fact remains that its fairly common to attach fire support units to Special Forces units in the field if they're expected to engage hostile forces. Which was Ody's point in the first place, as far as I can tell. No, it really is. It's going above and beyond to bring in additional troops that are entirely not needed. Yeah, I'll like to see how a AC-130 gunship or tactical fighters fare in the Faerunian Underdark. Real smart. And again, it's about the SEALs versus drow. You don't go unnecessarily, arbitrarily modifying something just because they can't score a victory. Even so, you'll giving the SEALs too little credit. And you seem to be missing the point of having SEALs involved. SEALs usually work in groups of 4-man sweeper teams and are deployed mainly for the following: recon, guerilla warfare, unconventional warfare, etc. To give them other hardware and tech means that SEALs aren't involved anymore but other units of the army. It's extraneous. His point was flawed and not suited to the context at hand.
Warning 01-03-08, 08:02 AM	Shadowsil. You fail to notice that when speaking of humans as in decades compared to Drow in centuries, humans adapt faster than most. Artemis rivaling Drizzt..and Artemis is 40 while Drizzt is centuries. So this does imply equal status. The Drow need those centuries to perfect the mental concentration for magical ability, where the Seals only need to learn to aim and pull their finger on a trigger. Unlike elves, centuries from now, humans won't be using the same equipment. Every new generation brings new innovation. An analogy would be, all though you are perfecting the chop sticks for centuries to eat, I will be inventing the fork in terms of more efficient eating efforts.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 08:12 AM	Shadowsil. You fail to notice that when speaking of humans as in decades compared to Drow in centuries, humans adapt faster than most. Artemis rivaling Drizzt..and Artemis is 40 while Drizzt is centuries. No, I did account for the adaptability of humans, it's something that separates our race from the other races after all. But it doesn't change much. Artemis was an extreme special case who went on to become one of the greatest assassins in the Realms. Not everyone is going to be like that. And you fail to notice that Artemis and others like him are helped by magic...something that doesn't exist in our world. As a consequence no SEAL will have magical equipment. And you are mistaken re Drizzt, he's only nearing his first century as per his latest novels, not already in his centuries as you falsely imply. So this does imply equal status. Tell me you can't be seriously arguing that? No, it doesn't imply equal status, not by a long mile. The Drow need those centuries to perfect the mental concentration for magical ability, where the Seals only need to learn to aim and pull their finger on a trigger. That's entirely too simple-minded. Drow don't need centuries, Drizzt and the others in his class, Berg'inyon included, graduated from Melee-Magthere by their 30th year or something, he was around 70 or perhaps early to late 60s during the events that involved a village, his pursuit by a bounty-hunter and eventual friendship with Bruenor and Catt-Brie. The drow do gain experience from encounters like any other adventuring party. And give the SEALs more credit. Do you have any idea what is required of SEALs? Go to wiki to educate yourself. Unlike elves, centuries from now, humans won't be using the same equipment. Every new generation brings new innovation. An analogy would be, all though you are perfecting the chop sticks for centuries to eat, I will be inventing the fork in terms of more efficient eating efforts. But we aren't arguing centuries from now or futuristic setups. We are discussing present-day SEALs versus drow. Your analogy of chop sticks and cutlery is grossly wrong and flawed. They present different methods of eating and involve different cultures. No method is more advantageous over the other.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 12:07 PM	The Wealth by Level guidelines disagree with you. For 20 level D&D characters +10 weapons and armor is standard issue. -Well, not exactly. You get the...500,000 something GP, and everything you want to buy with it. I created an 18th level character for a module, once, and had...around 400,000 GP to spend. Even though I was a Wizard, my primary weapon was only a total of +3 (+2 and spell storing). I spend the rest of the money on extraneous items. A Fighter is likely to do the same, though put more of an emphasis on the weapon/armor. No, you're wrong. :rofl:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 01:36 PM	Hey LK this is not Funny, E'tii' has some "mad skills" debating, He out-debata me when I wasn't even debating, and more, he debate me that I was debating! Again MAD SKILLS :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 01:52 PM	Hey LK this is not Funny, E'tii' has some "mad skills" debating, He out-debata me when I wasn't even debating, and more, he debate me that I was debating! Again MAD SKILLS :rolleyes: -No, I was laughing in reference to him and Stigger's conversation. Stigger left it as, "Different strokes for different folks. You have your opinion, I have mine, and let's leave it at that". And then, the response, of course.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 02:13 PM	And IMO Stigg is being too nice, Healing is Conjuration so say the spell description of the spells PERIOD. As for understimating magic power: No you are wrong, we know what magic can do cuz I'm pretty sure we all have a PHB. The thing is that You don't know nothing about the military and think you do. There's no pride or try to be "cool" from this kind of teams their thing is ACOMPLISH the mission that's it don't think that you know how this groupthinks cuz you obviously don't but let me "square you away": They first thing you do to apply to be SF is "selection" they go for 20 day on the field to and do all kinds of crazy stuff, Some people people are such studs that make it no sweat, but they still don't get selected. Why? Because they don't have the attitued needed fo it (being "cool" and cocky and proud are attittued not suited for being SF). Is interesting that every one here that knows about the military put the odd in favor of SEALs (Stigg, Bullet, 18Delta and myself) Bullet actually play the whole thing and the drows won, and I accpted his ruling because he knows "the two sides". but hey What do I know? I don't even know when I'm debating.... :rolleyes:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 02:16 PM	I know I was being sarcastic. How can you being wrong about your opinion(specially when the rules back them up)?
Stigger 01-03-08, 02:33 PM	No, you're wrong. Very succinct, though not terribly convincing arguement there. Though the fact that they stuck the spell in Conjuration tends to support my point of view moreso than it does yours. ;) The comment involving Renaissance era armies is flawed at the offset because said army doesn't have access to magic, unlike drow. Tech level in such an environment or other arguments concerning a defeat of said army becomes irrelevant. SEALs sweeper teams are cooler than just having the cavalry show up with artillery. But, name your weapon and I'll show you how I can use magic to defeat it. Of course you can name a weapon and figure out how to defeat it individually. That's relatively easy as exercises go. The weapons by themselves aren't really that impressive if taken as individual things, however, the entire doctrine of the US Armed Forces is to combine the effects of multiple, simultaneous units and weapons into a greater whole, and in fact trains very, very hard to pull that off exceedingly well. And its not a question of cavalry, its a question of tactics. If the SEALs or any other special forces types are doing their best to remain hidden, then artillery being called in to engage an enemy while maintaining that stealth is a perfectly valid arguement. Beyond that, looking at it simply from a matter of fair or unfair, the point wasn't equal levels versus equal levels, the point was equal groups against equal groups as an intellectual exercise. Hence, if you're going to give the drow access to a Meteor Swarm, I don't see why it would be a problem to give the SEALs access to air support and artillery fire missions. That enters into a point of rapid escalation however, and quickly devolves the exercise into a case of who gets off what effect/strike first, thus negating the entire point of the exercise in the first place. I'm just bouncing off the example of nondetection, but it could work to defeat sensors and other tracking tech. There are other spells that ensure the erasure of available signs to track the enemy with, confuse and befuddle the enemy with, enfeeble the intellect of etc. With those technologies, you are making presumptions that it's going to automatically confer knowledge to the waiting party and that magic could do nothing to stop detection. This is again, flawed. If you were to factor in magic, most of the technologies could be rendered moot. Again, as there as ways to confuse humanoids with spells there are ways to confuse machines. Etherealness is more than a viable option, it's a tactic that the drow would be more than willing to exploit. And you're making the same assumptions about technology. There is nothing in most of the spell descriptions about defeating EM Radar emissions, thermal imagers, and the like. Who says they do actually protect against them? Why would they since there aren't many threats that use those as detection methods? There's no reason to protect against something, or to specifically include it if you don't even know it exists. If infravision still existed as a concept within 3e, I'd agree that they could defeat thermal imagery fairly easily, however with that effectively removed from the game, that isn't such a sure bet anymore. Yes, it is, it totally is, that's precisely what you are doing, however you want to sidestep or deny it. Conflating resources above and beyond what the original scenario called for. Again, the point remains that should the SEALs bring in their equipment they're going to need a hell of a lot of space to put it in, something that is ultimately to their disadvantage since magic requires no such need. And if you're bringing in support troops this fails to become just about or just between the drow and SEALs - which was the point of the thread after all, it becomes the drow versus the SEALs plus allies, which is unnecessary, excessive and biased because the SEALs can't win any other way. And what precisely do you think you're doing bringing in 9th level spells? How are they effectively all that different? They're not... you might say the drow can cast those spells on their own, but to that I say the SEAL can pick up a radio on their own and have much the same effect with a 105mm howitzer round from a Spectre. In this escalation game of yours with the spellcasters, you're failing to see that by using magic as a force multiplier and not allowing the SEALs to make use of their own force multipliers, then you're creating a situation that is unfairly stacked against the SEALs. I know, Drow don't fight fair, but that's beside the point for our discussion, otherwise it turns into a one-sided slaughter that seems designed to stroke the ego of the one setting up the slaughter more than anything else... either that or to 'prove' some agenda of pro-magic or pro-technology. I didn't like it when Warning did it with technology, and I certainly don't like it this time around either. If you're going to set up a contrived scenario like this in the first place, at least try to balance things out to make both sides as even as possible. Uh, what the special units carry is their own gear. What makes you think otherwise? It may have originally being the property of the sovereign nation, but it's now the property of the SEALs. No, its still the property of the US Government. They have to give it back after they're done with it, which goes back to the armorer or quartermaster's stockpiles unless it gets lost or destroyed. They don't necessarily have much of a choice in what they are carrying either, only what's in the stocks to be drawn from, and even then they're often constrained by the mission parameters and such. Which was the point of that bit up there. You'll looking at it too simple-mindedly, you're underestimating magic, overestimating tech, or perhaps not understanding what magic can do in the situation. It's not about conditions or specifics of the encounter, it's about who has want and how one force shapes the terrain and environment and battlefield to their advantage. Actually, there are very real ways of settling the issue, it's just that others, like yourself, deny it or can't see it. Like I said mentioned before, state your equipment and we and I can ensure you that magic can null the advantage provided by it. Again, refer to my above comments about defeating things individually. Its designed to work synergistically, force multiplication and all that. You know, the same thing that the Drow have going for them with spellcasters... and for the record, I'm fairly certain you're overestimating magic from my point of view. Certainly its powerful, particularly when used intelligently, but you're basing your assumptions with prior knowledge, that the drow will know exactly how to counter each of these threats in the first place, which is certainly not the case. No, it really is. It's going above and beyond to bring in additional troops that are entirely not needed. Yeah, I'll like to see how a AC-130 gunship or tactical fighters fare in the Faerunian Underdark. Real smart. And again, it's about the SEALs versus drow. You don't go unnecessarily, arbitrarily modifying something just because they can't score a victory. Even so, you'll giving the SEALs too little credit. And you seem to be missing the point of having SEALs involved. SEALs usually work in groups of 4-man sweeper teams and are deployed mainly for the following: recon, guerilla warfare, unconventional warfare, etc. To give them other hardware and tech means that SEALs aren't involved anymore but other units of the army. It's extraneous. His point was flawed and not suited to the context at hand. You obviously missed the point there yourself. Read up on the way SOCOM and the armed forces in general actually works, and then try again, something beyond the dubious quality of Wiki I hope. The military does not operate on the level of individual units for the most part, but as a greater whole. That's why the US Armed Forces are so formidable. Sticking them in the underdark in the first place puts a huge advantage to the Drow in the first place, so isn't really well suited to a 'fair matchup'. Beyond that, what would SEALs be doing in the underdark in the first place, much less deep enough to encounter drow? As to what a gunship or helicopter would be going in the underdark, the obvious answer is that they wouldn't be there. But that wasn't exactly Ody's point there if you get beyond the amazingly strict interpretations you seem to be using of other people's words. Beyond all of this however, this wasn't my contention in the first place, so I'm for the most part done with it, particularly with the insulting tone your posts seem to be taking.
Derren S. 01-03-08, 02:54 PM	That you have to include all this heavy guns so that the seals even have a chance against a group of normal drows without backup proves that the drow are stronger. But no matter what the seals have the drow will always win with the correct tactic. For example take a drow shadowdancer who hides somewhere and let his shadow companion kill the seals. As the seals can not hurt the shadow in any way they will loose. This way the drow could take on the entire US military and win.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 03:06 PM	For example take a drow shadowdancer who hides somewhere and let his shadow companion kill the seals. As the seals can not hurt the shadow in any way they will loose. -If we want to throw random variables in there, like Shadowdancers, and their Shadow companions, let's take into account lasers. Mind you, I don't know much about them, but there does exist experimental laser weaponry, and being as that lasers are light, I'd say that they'd effect those Shades.
DarthVicious074 01-03-08, 03:07 PM	Okay, Chemistry and Electronics are different enough that I would think bullets would work. There is a unit of French Parachutists that still use crossbows as weapons. And as a U.S. Marine who had friends in both the SEALS and Radio Recon (similar to Force Recon, but sneakier), every SpecForce unit is highly trained for all sorts of purposes, including counter-revolutionary tactics designed to either help overthrow a government (I.E. Panama, Iraq, Afganistan, etc.), or maintaining a friendly government (Iraq <right now>, South Korea, etc.). We are also trained to use several primitive weapons like knives, machetes, spears, clubs etc. Many of us were also Boy Scouts and believe it or not we are taught all sorts of interest things like archery, rope work, etc. So we could also make traps (something we were trained for in the military). We also have our own hand sign language. So the SEALS would have an advantage on the surface as lang as ammo held out. And remember that SEALS also carry rocket launchers, grenades (flashbangs especially), C-4, etc. NVGs do have the problems of needing some light to work properly, and even then your depth perception is gone (although we receive training to counteract this). Magic would give the Drow an advantage over any Special Forces unit. As would their training (weapons, magic, etc.), especially in the Underdark their home turf. And since when do Drow kill each other during raids? I mean the Drow worked pretty well together when they launched attacks on Blingdenstone and Mithral Hall. I know they lost to the latter and only won the former due to superior man power and abilities, but the still worked together against a common enemy. So overall, I'd have to give this to the Drow, at least until the SEALS hooked up with the locals who hate the Drow (damn near everybody), then the SEALS would gain the advantage.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-03-08, 03:22 PM	What about my personal army of toy soldiers? Where do THEY fit in? Huh?
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 03:30 PM	...We...We...We... -I am assuming you are one of 'them'? What about my personal army of toy soldiers? Where do THEY fit in? Huh? -Animate Object, and you've got an army of tiny-sized proportions, a la Toy Story
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 03:43 PM	That you have to include all this heavy guns so that the seals even have a chance against a group of normal drows without backup proves that the drow are stronger. But no matter what the seals have the drow will always win with the correct tactic. For example take a drow shadowdancer who hides somewhere and let his shadow companion kill the seals. As the seals can not hurt the shadow in any way they will loose. This way the drow could take on the entire US military and win. You are missing the point. All I said is that getting a team of SEALs against wizardS is like putting drow fighter against a tank or the like, I'm not saying that the SEALs need all that to win. First tell what a drow party involves, I don't think it will inolved a 20 lv Wizard, since it just a patrol unit, and that will be wasted resouses (I might belive that from a Thayan patrol though) so tell me what a high lv drow patrol consist and then we talk, cuz you are putting wizards, shadow dancer, clerics, Loth(?) against a group of rogues/fighters. You do that and then we can have a "debate"
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 03:46 PM	-I am assuming you are one of 'them'? -Animate Object, and you've got an army of tiny-sized proportions, a la Toy Story He's my Marine counterpart....
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 03:49 PM	First tell what a drow party involves, I don't think it will inolved a 20 lv Wizard, since it just a patrol unit, and that will be wasted resouses (I might belive that from a Thayan patrol though) so tell me what a high lv drow patrol consist and then we talk, cuz you are putting wizards, shadow dancer, clerics, Loth(?) against a group of rogues/fighters. You do that and then we can have a "debate" -Originally, it was just these guys: Normal Strong Hero/Soldier St:16 Dx:15 Cn:14 In:13 Ws:11 Ch:8 Hit Points: 136 BaB: +17/+12/+5 Frt: +12 Ref: +10 Wil: +6 Talents: 5 Feats: 16 Skill Points: 112 Defense Bonus: +10 Reputation bonus +4 Action Points: 21 Special: Simple Weapons prof, weapons specialization, improved critical, improved reaction, greater weapon specialization, critical strike Drow Fighter St:14 Dx:14 Cn:11 In:13 Ws:10 Ch:10 Hit Points: 105 Bab: +20/+15/+10/+5 Frt: +12 Ref: +8 Wil: +6 Feats: 18 Skill Points: 69 Special: Racial Abilites
Stigger 01-03-08, 04:32 PM	Indeed, thanks LK. One on one, fighter versus fighter, I'd go with advantage to the SEAL at range, and the Drow in close quarters.
Derren S. 01-03-08, 04:42 PM	Indeed, thanks LK. One on one, fighter versus fighter, I'd go with advantage to the SEAL at range, and the Drow in close quarters. I have linked to this stats several times but no one listened.... How do you make sure that the drow will stay at range? One potion of invisibility and it will be a close combat fight. Or maybe the drow has an item of dimension door? And you still have the problem that the attack bonus of the seal would be quite low compared to the magically increased AC of the drow. The first attack will hit most of the time but all other attacks will have a big chance of missing especially when there are also cover and range penalties.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 05:06 PM	I have linked to this stats several times but no one listened.... How do you make sure that the drow will stay at range? One potion of invisibility and it will be a close combat fight. Or maybe the drow has an item of dimension door? And you still have the problem that the attack bonus of the seal would be quite low compared to the magically increased AC of the drow. The first attack will hit most of the time but all other attacks will have a big chance of missing especially when there are also cover and range penalties. Wrong on both accounts(read atomatic rifle DMG 146) sure it will be minimal damage w a succesful save but is enough to reveal position (not to mention granades don't need to see you go boom) and you are assuming the the SEAL will fail, Listen and Spot checks...
Derren S. 01-03-08, 05:16 PM	By that level the save will most likely be successful and minimal damage does not win this fight. And you still have to see where you should throw the grenade which also does only low damage and allows a save. And when we use D&D guns the damage will be quite low. D20 modern guns do a bit more damage but don't have an area attack to my knowledge. Making spot checks to pinpoint is unlikely even at that level. Listen checks are a bit more likely unless the drow sneak. Edit: I looked at the D20 Modern SRD. Weapons with Full Auto can make an area attack at a 10x10 ft area but that attack is DC 15 Reflex negates and eats through a lot of ammo (10 shots).
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 05:46 PM	That's not much ammo at all, assuming the SEAL has all seven mags (for a total of 210 rounds). And of course the drow can use Move Silently but it is a fighter so is a cross class and armor chek penalty, unlikely the SEAL will fail his check unless the drow have magical aid in the form of boots of elvenkind or the sort...
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 05:49 PM	Hey LK this is not Funny, E'tii' has some "mad skills" debating, He out-debata me when I wasn't even debating, and more, he debate me that I was debating! Again MAD SKILLS :rolleyes: :rolleyes: If my posting gives you the sniffles, don't bother posting in a forum then. By posting in a forum, you are posting your opinion and thus debating/discussing. -No, I was laughing in reference to him and Stigger's conversation. Stigger left it as, "Different strokes for different folks. You have your opinion, I have mine, and let's leave it at that". And then, the response, of course. It was deadpan, but I guess I should have used a smilie. And IMO Stigg is being too nice, Healing is Conjuration so say the spell description of the spells PERIOD. As for understimating magic power: No you are wrong, we know what magic can do cuz I'm pretty sure we all have a PHB. The thing is that You don't know nothing about the military and think you do. There's no pride or try to be "cool" from this kind of teams their thing is ACOMPLISH the mission that's it don't think that you know how this groupthinks cuz you obviously don't but let me "square you away": Again, rigorously adhering to something just because the rules say so is restricting and self-limiting. Especially if the spell can be placed in a different school because it fits better. If the rules say for you to jump off a cliff, would you do that? Sure, let's hear what the military can actually do, since I'm know nothing about the military. So far, we haven't heard any logical statements from those who have advocated a SEALs victory but have posted how a bullet can stop the drow or wax lyrical re their tech and arms. They first thing you do to apply to be SF is "selection" they go for 20 day on the field to and do all kinds of crazy stuff, Some people people are such studs that make it no sweat, but they still don't get selected. Why? Because they don't have the attitued needed fo it (being "cool" and cocky and proud are attittued not suited for being SF). Is interesting that every one here that knows about the military put the odd in favor of SEALs (Stigg, Bullet, 18Delta and myself) Bullet actually play the whole thing and the drows won, and I accpted his ruling because he knows "the two sides". Well, let's have those who are favor of a military victory please post the tactics the SEALs use rather than their arms and equipment and how great it is. but hey What do I know? I don't even know when I'm debating.... :rolleyes: Clearly you don't know how an online forum works.
Derren S. 01-03-08, 05:56 PM	That's not much ammo at all, assuming the SEAL has all seven mags (for a total of 210 rounds). And of course the drow can use Move Silently but it is a fighter so is a cross class and armor chek penalty, unlikely the SEAL will fail his check unless the drow have magical aid in the form of boots of elvenkind or the sort... Its more a question of having to reload. And the real problem is that a DC 15 Reflex saves negates this entire attack. Even when the drow do not have any Dex/Reflex boosting items they only be hit 30% of all times assuming that the seal attacks the correct 10x10 ft. square. (actually even less as the seal has to make an attack roll vs AC 10 to hit this area so he misses on a natural 1. So in the unlikely even that the Seal does manage to fire all his ammo and somehow always aim at the correct are he would only hit 59-60 times. Thats a really bad hit ration. Also all this gunfire will certainly count as "being distracted" for listen checks which makes it harder to pinpoint the location of the drow through listen checks. Don't forget that you need to succeed by +20 to pinpoint the location.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 06:03 PM	Very succinct, though not terribly convincing arguement there. Though the fact that they stuck the spell in Conjuration tends to support my point of view moreso than it does yours. ;) Sorry, that was meant to be deadpan. I should have used an emoticon. And it was clearly a stupid mistake on the part of the designers. Of course you can name a weapon and figure out how to defeat it individually. That's relatively easy as exercises go. The weapons by themselves aren't really that impressive if taken as individual things, however, the entire doctrine of the US Armed Forces is to combine the effects of multiple, simultaneous units and weapons into a greater whole, and in fact trains very, very hard to pull that off exceedingly well. Please do post some tactics and maneuvers. It'd be interesting to "hear" what the SEALs would pull off in such a scenario. And its not a question of cavalry, its a question of tactics. If the SEALs or any other special forces types are doing their best to remain hidden, then artillery being called in to engage an enemy while maintaining that stealth is a perfectly valid arguement. It's a question of cavalry in the context, you make yourself scarce while you get the boys to mop off the opposition. If the SEALs remain hidden, so would the drow. With only artillery or a battery of seals being used to engage to the opposition. Now, we have shown that magic can stop tech, this talk only leads us back to the beginning. It didn't really change much. Beyond that, looking at it simply from a matter of fair or unfair, the point wasn't equal levels versus equal levels, the point was equal groups against equal groups as an intellectual exercise. Hence, if you're going to give the drow access to a Meteor Swarm, I don't see why it would be a problem to give the SEALs access to air support and artillery fire missions. That enters into a point of rapid escalation however, and quickly devolves the exercise into a case of who gets off what effect/strike first, thus negating the entire point of the exercise in the first place. Originally the premise was that guns didn't work at all, the consequence being that it would hand a solid victory to the drow. I've made the change that the SEALs tracking tech and arms and equipment actually work and function perfectly well. By giving the drow access to magic, I've done nothing that wouldn't have already been quite common on Faerun. Again, it's not a case of "because such and such have this so too must this and this have such." And you're making the same assumptions about technology. There is nothing in most of the spell descriptions about defeating EM Radar emissions, thermal imagers, and the like. Who says they do actually protect against them? Why would they since there aren't many threats that use those as detection methods? There's no reason to protect against something, or to specifically include it if you don't even know it exists. If infravision still existed as a concept within 3e, I'd agree that they could defeat thermal imagery fairly easily, however with that effectively removed from the game, that isn't such a sure bet anymore. I'm saying there are spells that generate heat or bursts of discordant noise, this can be used to confuse radar and heat sensors. There are other spells along the vine as well, but the point forms from thereon out. And what precisely do you think you're doing bringing in 9th level spells? How are they effectively all that different? They're not... you might say the drow can cast those spells on their own, but to that I say the SEAL can pick up a radio on their own and have much the same effect with a 105mm howitzer round from a Spectre. In this escalation game of yours with the spellcasters, you're failing to see that by using magic as a force multiplier and not allowing the SEALs to make use of their own force multipliers, then you're creating a situation that is unfairly stacked against the SEALs. I know, Drow don't fight fair, but that's beside the point for our discussion, otherwise it turns into a one-sided slaughter that seems designed to stroke the ego of the one setting up the slaughter more than anything else... either that or to 'prove' some agenda of pro-magic or pro-technology. I didn't like it when Warning did it with technology, and I certainly don't like it this time around either. It's common enough in Faerun, the OP stipulated that the scenario take place in a fantasy world, I've just cut the silly restrictive measure that it only include drow fighters. The original premise was already unfairly stacked against the SEALs, if you can remember, the SEALs' guns did not work, could not work because of the 'laws' affecting Abeir-Toril. But by every means, list those force multipliers, and I and we can show you how magic can defeat them. If you're going to set up a contrived scenario like this in the first place, at least try to balance things out to make both sides as even as possible. Why? Nothing has to be fair. No, its still the property of the US Government. They have to give it back after they're done with it, which goes back to the armorer or quartermaster's stockpiles unless it gets lost or destroyed. They don't necessarily have much of a choice in what they are carrying either, only what's in the stocks to be drawn from, and even then they're often constrained by the mission parameters and such. Which was the point of that bit up there. Again, refer to my above comments about defeating things individually. Its designed to work synergistically, force multiplication and all that. You know, the same thing that the Drow have going for them with spellcasters... and for the record, I'm fairly certain you're overestimating magic from my point of view. Certainly its powerful, particularly when used intelligently, but you're basing your assumptions with prior knowledge, that the drow will know exactly how to counter each of these threats in the first place, which is certainly not the case. You obviously missed the point there yourself. Read up on the way SOCOM and the armed forces in general actually works, and then try again, something beyond the dubious quality of Wiki I hope. The military does not operate on the level of individual units for the most part, but as a greater whole. That's why the US Armed Forces are so formidable. Sticking them in the underdark in the first place puts a huge advantage to the Drow in the first place, so isn't really well suited to a 'fair matchup'. Beyond that, what would SEALs be doing in the underdark in the first place, much less deep enough to encounter drow? As to what a gunship or helicopter would be going in the underdark, the obvious answer is that they wouldn't be there. But that wasn't exactly Ody's point there if you get beyond the amazingly strict interpretations you seem to be using of other people's words. Beyond all of this however, this wasn't my contention in the first place, so I'm for the most part done with it, particularly with the insulting tone your posts seem to be taking.[/QUOTE] Re LK, if you recall, the original premise ensured that the guns of the SEALs don't work. Smokepowder is sufficiently different to current arms tech that it wouldn't have worked either. This was already sufficiently skewed in favor of the drow.
MarkusTay63 01-03-08, 06:05 PM	I promised myself not to participate in this thread, or even read it (which I haven't), but I came across something yesterday that made me want to share - US Navy Seals are far eviller then Drow, and would whup their @sses. Have you see their base in Callifornia? (http://www.flickr.com/photos/silvery/143053448/)
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 06:18 PM	Its more a question of having to reload. And the real problem is that a DC 15 Reflex saves negates this entire attack. Even when the drow do not have any Dex/Reflex boosting items they only be hit 30% of all times assuming that the seal attacks the correct 10x10 ft. square. (actually even less as the seal has to make an attack roll vs AC 10 to hit this area so he misses on a natural 1. So in the unlikely even that the Seal does manage to fire all his ammo and somehow always aim at the correct are he would only hit 59-60 times. Thats a really bad hit ration. Also all this gunfire will certainly count as "being distracted" for listen checks which makes it harder to pinpoint the location of the drow through listen checks. Don't forget that you need to succeed by +20 to pinpoint the location. Good point with the Ref and negate the whole thing (even tho I will rule half DMG but is not in the books so you are right :D) but there's a feat equivalent to "quick reaload" in modern. Even tho I would agree at some extent that firing a weapon would be distracting (some extent because a M4 is virtually quiet and doesn't recoil compared to an AK-47) there's no rules for that (at least in the in the DMG if you find something of the sort in Modern please tell). Basing our self in that premise we can also say that about a Wizard when he cast a fireball or lightingbolt (as they go boom)(not that a wizard is in this match but just saying).
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-03-08, 06:25 PM	I promised myself not to participate in this thread, or even read it (which I haven't), but I came across something yesterday that made me want to share - US Navy Seals are far eviller then Drow, and would whup their @sses. Have you see their base in Callifornia? (http://www.flickr.com/photos/silvery/143053448/):eek: I knew it!
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 06:43 PM	As to why we're taking away their guns, that's mostly because gunpowder is known not to work in the Realms, nor electronic devices. They can bring them, but they won't function, so they might as well not have them. The physics of the Realms being different from most places was established at least as far back as 2e, and was in the equivalent of the FRCS, page 9 of the Running the Realms booklet. Are we throwing this out the window then?
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 06:46 PM	Sorry, that was meant to be deadpan. I should have used an emoticon. -Made me laugh, either way. Re LK, if you recall, the original premise ensured that the guns of the SEALs don't work. -The original premise has changed fifteen times. As above, it was originally 1 SEAL against 1 Drow Fighter. Then, it was a group of SEALs against a group of Drow, then there were different battles on different terrains... I promised myself not to participate in this thread, or even read it (which I haven't), but I came across something yesterday that made me want to share - US Navy Seals are far eviller then Drow, and would whup their @sses. Have you see their base in Callifornia? (http://www.flickr.com/photos/silvery/143053448/) "If you zoom out and look to the southwest, there are 2 buildings that look like bombers flying towards the swastika. Supposedly, this symbolizes the allies bombing and destroying the swastika." -That's cool. I like symbolism. I used to hate it, but I've matured since then.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-03-08, 07:55 PM	-Animate Object, and you've got an army of tiny-sized proportions, a la Toy Story They'd make a great honor guard, I think.:cool:
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 08:04 PM	They'd make a great honor guard, I think.:cool: -I imagine a swarm of massive proportions.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-03-08, 08:11 PM	-I imagine a swarm of massive proportions. I think you should try it. It's cute.:)
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 08:21 PM	-What? You have an honor guard of animated plastic army men? Well, if you say so, and want me to, I guess...
MarkusTay63 01-03-08, 08:26 PM	Well, if they were a little bigger, like GI Joes, you'd have ones that performed like those guys in Small Soldiers, who were pretty awesome. I HATED the Gorgonites - I wanted those whiney b_st_rds to lose...
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 08:29 PM	Well, if they were a little bigger, like GI Joes, you'd have ones that performed like those guys in Small Soldiers, who were pretty awesome. I HATED the Gorgonites - I wanted those whiney b_st_rds to lose... -I'm not familiar with that.
Stigger 01-03-08, 08:35 PM	Please do post some tactics and maneuvers. It'd be interesting to "hear" what the SEALs would pull off in such a scenario. Next to impossible to post tactics and maneuvers, since they're all generally very situational and based on current terrain features. Beyond that, given that you said you have very little knowledge of the military, the terminology used probably wouldn't help the discussion much, and would probably lead to more confusion than clarity. Beyond even that, most of the tactics that SEALs and other special forces types actually use in field aren't exactly commonly known, at least beyond the idea of them, though not often the 'how' of them. It's a question of cavalry in the context, you make yourself scarce while you get the boys to mop off the opposition. If the SEALs remain hidden, so would the drow. With only artillery or a battery of seals being used to engage to the opposition. Now, we have shown that magic can stop tech, this talk only leads us back to the beginning. It didn't really change much. I'm taking it you aren't familiar with the way Close Air Support and Close-in Fire Missions work then. True that with a lack of GPS and accurate mapping that things get a bit dicey, but still, it was still quite possible to deliver ordnance at extremely close range before the advent of such conveniences, so I can't see why it wouldn't be possible without them. Though I disagree that magic will automatically stop technology. It can, certainly, but that requires a certain amount of knowledge of knowing what to use, when, and how. And I can't quite see my way clear to think that the Drow are intimately familiar with how all this stuff can be stopped without entering deeply into metagaming territory. Same holds true for the SEALs though. Originally the premise was that guns didn't work at all, the consequence being that it would hand a solid victory to the drow. I've made the change that the SEALs tracking tech and arms and equipment actually work and function perfectly well. By giving the drow access to magic, I've done nothing that wouldn't have already been quite common on Faerun. Again, it's not a case of "because such and such have this so too must this and this have such." Yes, I'm aware. That particular point of working/not working has gone back and forth quite a bit. If we're going to allow the guns however, might as well allow everything else, if we're going for the total package approach and giving the drow heavy spellcasters. I'm saying there are spells that generate heat or bursts of discordant noise, this can be used to confuse radar and heat sensors. There are other spells along the vine as well, but the point forms from thereon out. Yes, so do modern munitions. And most modern sensor packages are designed to cope with that. ;) It's common enough in Faerun, the OP stipulated that the scenario take place in a fantasy world, I've just cut the silly restrictive measure that it only include drow fighters. The original premise was already unfairly stacked against the SEALs, if you can remember, the SEALs' guns did not work, could not work because of the 'laws' affecting Abeir-Toril. But by every means, list those force multipliers, and I and we can show you how magic can defeat them. Yes, it can. As technology can counter quite a few magical advantages. However, again, is it reasonable to conclude that just because it can do so, will the Drow know how to use it in that manner is the pertinent question at hand. Presumably, they have no experience with modern technology or its capabilities, and thus, no idea how best to counter it. Some weirdo in cloth looking armor tosses a little egg looking thing towards you, are you going to pop up a wall of force, or are you going to presume its using energy damage and put up energy resistance spells, since most other things shaped that way inflict energy damage... only to find out that it was either a fragmentation grenade, which doesn't inflict energy damage per se, a flashbang, in which case you're seriously screwed, or concussion, which relies doesn't really rely on energy damage either... by which time its probably far too late to do anything. By the same token, that SEAL is going to look at some weirdo in a dress wiggling his fingers, who's otherwise unarmed, ignore him, and then get blasted with a fireball, which could cook off ammunition and detonate grenades. Sure, spells like ironskin and such can probably protect against bullets to some extent, but how are they supposed to know that those weird long things are anything but a glorified crossbow? Obviously they're ranged weapons, but if they're trooping around in what looks like cloth, how serious a threat are you going to take them for? They'd look like morons compared to your average fighter, so underestimation I think is at least possible, if not likely. And the SEALs are going to take a look at a bunch of skinny fellows in black metal armor, and probably underestimate its strength by the same token. But even if they do shoot first, the armor may stop penetration, but its not going to do much to stop the kinetic force of the bullet, which is going to hurt like all hell. That can go on ad nauseum, but hopefully you see the point that this isn't nearly as cut and dried as you seem to wish it to be. Why? Nothing has to be fair. If you're going to bother with the match-up, and not have it be a case of cool magical people pwning the poor magicless schmucks, then balance and fairness is rather key. Otherwise, this is simply some indulgent fantasy to 'prove' that magic is superior to technology, and utterly pointless to the original intent of the question. As to the charming diatribe about following rules and strictly adhering to them... that is rather important to ensure a relatively impartial result, that wasn't being skewed by the modeller's own biases. How exactly we resolve the rules differences between D20 Modern and D&D though, I have no real idea given that I have virtually no familiarity with D20 Modern's ruleset.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-03-08, 08:42 PM	-What? You have an honor guard of animated plastic army men? Well, if you say so, and want me to, I guess... I'm thinking the old-fashioned wooden soldiers.:)
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 08:51 PM	-Alright. Those are a little more substantial.
Warning 01-03-08, 09:07 PM	http://youtube.com/watch?v=8mHKHKR8x6A Crabs beat all.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 09:19 PM	Crabs beat all. -Well, they're certainly something to not admit to.
Stigger 01-04-08, 12:09 AM	Not in polite company anyway...
Lord Karsus 01-04-08, 12:27 AM	-No, indeed not.
Warning 01-04-08, 02:21 AM	My DM played out the Drow vs Seal with me, and I never got my ass handed to me so hard while RPing as a dark elf. I rebuke my illogical previous statments and conceed that Seals are hands down, superior than the Drow. In fact, Technology is limitless, while magic is only maintained through hard training and exhausting will power. In a side note, I'd like to add in that Warning is possibly the sexiest man alive. Well it's about time. A little slow I'd say, but better late than never.
Lord Karsus 01-04-08, 02:59 AM	-It's in extremely bad tastes to doctor and misattribute quotes to fellow Boards Members.
Warning 01-04-08, 03:26 AM	-It's in extremely bad tastes to doctor and misattribute quotes to fellow Boards Members. None sense. On the contrary, he spoke his mind. And spoke it correctly might I add. Perhaps one day you will submit to me too. By the way, is there a damage limit to what those meele absorber guys can take? Kummieral or whatever. When I was playing NeverWinter Nights 2, the class was left out of the game for reasons for imbalance I was told.
Stigger 01-04-08, 04:10 AM	I would find it more amusing were it not for the sexiest man alive comment. Everyone knows that that title rightfully belongs to me. But I will chalk that up to sheer jealousy and rage over being my lesser in every conceivable way. I forgive you. :P
Warning 01-04-08, 04:36 AM	If Artemis can beat a Drow (concluding how many he has killed), with a sword and no magic. How can you not agree that a team of Seals won't pumble them? Artemis has to reach them, the Seals have to aim and pull their finger on the trigger.
Stigger 01-04-08, 06:55 AM	Depends on the circumstances. Really, it all boils down to initiative rolls, who reacts first, and how. Seriously, the SEALs aren't likely to just shoot someone for being black-skinned, pointy-eared people in armor and dresses. Nor are the Drow likely to take a bunch of guys in weird cloth armor with odd-looking crossbows as much of a serious threat to them. Too many variables at play there to really answer the question in a realistic manner one way or the other, at least the way I tend to look at it.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-04-08, 08:27 AM	-Made me laugh, either way. Yes, that is the intent of humor after all ;). -The original premise has changed fifteen times. As above, it was originally 1 SEAL against 1 Drow Fighter. Then, it was a group of SEALs against a group of Drow, then there were different battles on different terrains... If you could recall, the OP never specified how many SEALs were to battle drow, but gave the stats of a typical SEAL or drow. Presumably, these were to make teams. The premise then changed because many posters cried foul over Faerunian physics or cried foul for some other (unnecessary) reason and the original intent fell by the wayside. Which was the reason why some other posters, including myself, tried to steer the change back to the original premise. This was met with walls and roadblocks. Because the original premise stipulated that the battle happen on Faerun this meant that the guns of the SEALs would not work, thus handing victory over to the drow, unless of course they want to try their luck at fighting drow at 20th level. As this was quite skewed, I tried to change things to favor the SEALs more, ensuring that their tech and equipment worked and functioned well. Again, this was met with a chorus of 'cried foul', because the drow this time had magic. It's not my problem that Faerun is an inherently magical place, and brought in escalating and arbitrary tech and forces that again was moving further and further from the intent of the thread.
WizO_Kayn 01-04-08, 08:54 AM	Please stay on topic to avoid disruption. Thanks WizO Kayn
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-04-08, 09:08 AM	Next to impossible to post tactics and maneuvers, since they're all generally very situational and based on current terrain features. Beyond that, given that you said you have very little knowledge of the military, the terminology used probably wouldn't help the discussion much, and would probably lead to more confusion than clarity. Beyond even that, most of the tactics that SEALs and other special forces types actually use in field aren't exactly commonly known, at least beyond the idea of them, though not often the 'how' of them. At least what you are familiar with then or what you think helps the SEALs or what you think a 'typical' SEAL would do in a tactical situation in the Faerunian Underdark. It can be simple tactics, that any special forces operatives would utilise, etc. I do have little knowledge of the military, but this doesn't mean that I'm devoid of tactical sense or knowledge of strategic manuvers. I'm at least familiar with how Hollywood portrays special ops and I am well-read and am familiar with the terminology, hence why I've being using it throughout my previous posts. ;) It doesn't exactly help the discussion much or your or your sides' position if you can't post simple tactics. I'm taking it you aren't familiar with the way Close Air Support and Close-in Fire Missions work then. True that with a lack of GPS and accurate mapping that things get a bit dicey, but still, it was still quite possible to deliver ordnance at extremely close range before the advent of such conveniences, so I can't see why it wouldn't be possible without them. Though I disagree that magic will automatically stop technology. It can, certainly, but that requires a certain amount of knowledge of knowing what to use, when, and how. And I can't quite see my way clear to think that the Drow are intimately familiar with how all this stuff can be stopped without entering deeply into metagaming territory. Same holds true for the SEALs though. No, but how and why would it be relevant to the premise? As I said, to bring in additions to the equation means this is less about SEALs and more about the US military combined to take down the drow. The drow even with magic are still drow. Faerun is dominated by magic and is inherently magical. If you actually read what I wrote, you'd realise that I never once argued that magic automatically trumps tech. I have argued, however, that magic presents too many options that would null the advantage of tech. And I never said anything about the drow automatically knowing/comprehending what the tech of the SEALs can do. I have and others have, however, consistently argued that the drow are intimately familiar with warfare and battle and are very intelligent to boot, what if the +2 to Int and all, and as a consequence would know how to deal efficiently and sufficiently with the enemy, in this case, SEALs. The same can be said for the SEALs, but my point of centuries to decades separating combat experience comes into play, knowledge of terrain, etc. Also, a new point would be the benefits to stats that the drow are entitled to. This plays another crucial deciding factor. Yes, I'm aware. That particular point of working/not working has gone back and forth quite a bit. If we're going to allow the guns however, might as well allow everything else, if we're going for the total package approach and giving the drow heavy spellcasters. It isn't that simple. However, the point is (and if you missed it the first time): Faerun is suffused with magic, hence drow spellcasters are logical. While orbital relays or fighter jets are not. Yes, so do modern munitions. And most modern sensor packages are designed to cope with that. ;) Cope with magic? Now, why do I think that unlikely. ;) Yes, it can. As technology can counter quite a few magical advantages. However, again, is it reasonable to conclude that just because it can do so, will the Drow know how to use it in that manner is the pertinent question at hand. I've already listed many spells that impede tech. What you have argued against it thus far pretty much amounts to 'no, no it can't.' You've always dodged the issue and never given a clear statement as to how tech can counter magic. Presumably, they have no experience with modern technology or its capabilities, and thus, no idea how best to counter it. Some weirdo in cloth looking armor tosses a little egg looking thing towards you, are you going to pop up a wall of force, or are you going to presume its using energy damage and put up energy resistance spells, since most other things shaped that way inflict energy damage... only to find out that it was either a fragmentation grenade, which doesn't inflict energy damage per se, a flashbang, in which case you're seriously screwed, or concussion, which relies doesn't really rely on energy damage either... by which time its probably far too late to do anything. By the same token, that SEAL is going to look at some weirdo in a dress wiggling his fingers, who's otherwise unarmed, ignore him, and then get blasted with a fireball, which could cook off ammunition and detonate grenades. You're forgetting a crucial point, the drow would be knowledgeable, more than knowledgeable in tactics and such; they're experienced combat veterans after all. We are talking about 20th here after all remember? The drow are well-versed in enough battles to sufficiently prepare and protect themselves. You do what any other drow or some other sapient intelligent being would do, you 'suffuse' yourself with protections because you never know what you'd encounter. Again, we're talking about 20th level, so enough spells would be prepared to ensure this happens, or the items possessed would be sufficiently strong enough. Sure, spells like ironskin and such can probably protect against bullets to some extent, but how are they supposed to know that those weird long things are anything but a glorified crossbow? Obviously they're ranged weapons, but if they're trooping around in what looks like cloth, how serious a threat are you going to take them for? They'd look like morons compared to your average fighter, so underestimation I think is at least possible, if not likely. Some would go down to press the point, but the drow are smart enough to figure out for themselves and react accordingly. The SEALs can too, but the point is there is no way they can counter what the drow throw at them via spells, etc. While underestimation may be possible, since these are drow, they refer to other races as oblrith, casualties? (if any) among their ranks would sober them up and ensure they react accordingly. While prone to fits of superiority, the drow are by all means superiorally intelligent (+2 racial bonus to Int). And the SEALs are going to take a look at a bunch of skinny fellows in black metal armor, and probably underestimate its strength by the same token. But even if they do shoot first, the armor may stop penetration, but its not going to do much to stop the kinetic force of the bullet, which is going to hurt like all hell. Adamantatine armor, try shooting through that. Now, couple this with protective enchantments. You get the picture? It's not as simple as you make it out to be. That can go on ad nauseum, but hopefully you see the point that this isn't nearly as cut and dried as you seem to wish it to be. Except that you're presenting a rather simple-minded approach to things and consistently underestimating magic and magic items, even ignoring or perhaps not comprehending/understanding the very clear point of the drow wearing adamantine and wielding adamantine weapons. And while I agree that it is not a simple as all that, what I have consistently argued is that there are too many options that benefit the drow, that would skew the battle to and in their favor. Nowhere have you or others presented anything that could be not counted by magic, while producing arguments that fall along the lines of 'no, no it won't,' etc. If you're going to bother with the match-up, and not have it be a case of cool magical people pwning the poor magicless schmucks, then balance and fairness is rather key. Otherwise, this is simply some indulgent fantasy to 'prove' that magic is superior to technology, and utterly pointless to the original intent of the question. Except it's really not, and I don't know how you're viewing it that way. What I have asked for are points and arguments that counter the arguments of magical benefit. And you seem to be forgetting that the SEALs are the ones in Faerun, not the drow in our world. And again, never have I once argued that magic would automatically pwn tech, it's that it presents too many options. It's like an echo in here. By gifting the SEALs with fighter jets or battle cruisers or ordnance missiles, this becomes indulgent fantasy rather than the gifting of the drow with magic. This unnecessary inflation conflates the original intent, not the other way round. And it's not pointless, again, the SEALs are in Faerun, etc etc ad nauseum. If it were the drow who are in our world, I would rule the battle in favor of the SEALs, simply because magic would not work there and the SEALs would hand their (the drows') sorry arses to them on a platter. As to the charming diatribe about following rules and strictly adhering to them... that is rather important to ensure a relatively impartial result, that wasn't being skewed by the modeller's own biases. How exactly we resolve the rules differences between D20 Modern and D&D though, I have no real idea given that I have virtually no familiarity with D20 Modern's ruleset. Speak for yourself, thank you. I agree with following rules is important, but becomes less so when other posters flagrantly ignore them. And you've twisted my words and used them out of context, I never argued that rules should not be adhered to in the context of the versus conflict, what I did say was that adhering to mechanical or design rules when they made no sense was self-limiting.
Lord Karsus 01-04-08, 11:17 AM	None sense. On the contrary, he spoke his mind. And spoke it correctly might I add. Perhaps one day you will submit to me too. -And you wonder why you have problems with the WizOs and other posters. :rolleyes: Adamantatine armor, try shooting through that. Now, couple this with protective enchantments. You get the picture? It's not as simple as you make it out to be. -Depending on what type of gun is firing at the armor, I'd give it anywhere between effective (the armor nullifies any injury, except for bruises, etc.) to ineffective (the bullet pierces the armor). The smaller callibres are obviously more likely to fail to pierce the armor, even without enchantments. The heavier callibres are more likely to pierce the armor, even with enchantments, simply by virtue of what we know these weapons can fire through in actual life.
Lord Karsus 01-04-08, 11:58 AM	-History seems to say otherwise.
Warning 01-04-08, 12:03 PM	-History seems to say otherwise. Once again, you presume much as "history seems to say the same". You assume someone knows something so you go ahead and break your word. You see a mod here so you assume it's someone who had previous posting difficulties. But I can assure you, that no one has warned,notified me,requested,demanded any type of posting issue of me with this account. Also please realize it takes TWO people to argue, it's impossible for a conflict to arise with the counter-weight.
Lord Karsus 01-04-08, 12:09 PM	-I was refering past run-ins with WizOs, and past conflicts with fellow boards members. The list is quite extensive.
silkerahn 01-04-08, 12:42 PM	of course no one has speculated about the possibility that the S.E.A.L., Special Forces, or S.A.S. team member might in fact be a Drow his or her self. In point of fact I have a running scenario that maybe transposed over to 4E when I get a copy of the core rules. I have been doing it as a D20 cross-over campaign between D20 Modern and DnD 3.5. Silke Rahn is not a Special Operations soldier in the normal sense of the term, but a member of what the National Guard calls a Civil Support Team. The team she is part of in this campaign has both full-time active members and M-Day status Army and Air Nation Guard Military Police and Security Force troops. Rahn is a Half-Drow whose clan of Eilistraee worshippers used a powerful teleport spell at an anciet portal site to escape their enemies. The spell worked too well as they came out of the teleport in the field that surrounds the now leveled stone church at Stull, Kansas (reputed to be a gateway to hell by local legend). In my campaign the gateway at Stull was a natural portal to the Forgotten Realms. The survivors of Silke's family and clan were the largest group to transfer from one world to the other in the recorded history of my alternate Earth. Only the teleport brought the clan back into time they left Toril in DR 1375 (CE 2005) and arrived on Earth in CE 1987 (DR 1357). Anyway to cut to chase, Silke joined the United States Army as an MP, served in Panama in 1989, Persian Gulf War 1990 - 1991, between 1992 and 2000 obtained a Bachelors of Arts in Sociology, a Masters in Antropology, and a Doctorate in Sociology, also during this same period of time she was a member of an Army National Guard Military Police Company. Her classes from the Realms are Ranger, Rogue, and Shadow Dancer at the time of transfer she was an epic level character. In D20 Modern she is a Fast Hero/ Soldier/ Academic. Currently on the Choosen of Eilistraee forum she is being rped as having returned home to Toril from Earth to rescue her father from imprisonment and enslavement by her Lolth worshipping aunt, Akordia Vrinn. In one RP the set up is that she is on her way to Akordia's stronghold in the Underdark and in another thread she has rescued her father (another cross-time traveler) from Aunt Akordia and is on her way home though she has stopped to observe the actions of some surface dwelling Drow. In Silke's case she is skilled with both modern and archaic weaponry so if played out in either DnD 3.5 or D20 Modern it would work out that she would hold her own against most Drow as she herself is a Half-Drow whose mother is the Drow and her father is the Human. The problem may come in that she was raised in a Drow society that centered on the traditional worship of Eilistraee. Current Drow society on Toril at least is in chaos even if it is only a few months to a couple of years since her leaving Toril by the local timeline. But back to the original premise of this thread, a Special Operations team operating on Toril say in an SG-Team like situation would survive so long as the team does not do anything stupid to jeopardise its mission. Drow operatives not withstanding, the team could reach what ever the objective is, conduct its operation, and exfiltrate back to their point of insertion from Earth to Toril without detection if they follow their training and observe operational security. The team would not have to be made up of U.S. Army Rangers or Special Forces, British SAS, USN S.E.A.L.s or USMC Force Recon to conduct any operation cross-time/ cross-world, they just have to have proper training and proper discipline to conduct their operation without attracting the attention of the locals. Now if it is a cultural observation operation then having someone like Silke on the team would be a benefit to the mission's success.
Red_Wizard 01-04-08, 01:21 PM	So you are brining up previous events that were a over quite a few months back? How very bitter of you. Here LK, since you are going through whatever it is and taking it out on me. I am wrong and you are right. I am inconsiderate of others posting. I seek only satisfaction in my own selfish want of entertainment through conflict on the board. Lord Karsus did not break his word, he set me free from this inner hiding that he felt he needed to take in his own hands and tell anyone who asked him of it. The drow and seals both have their equal advantages. To each his/her own. Let's not debate everyone, let's cooperate. I'm sure we can come to a equally satifying conclusion for each of us to enjoy. Happy Holidays and posting :) (Is this who you want me to be?) Certainly more pleasant than most of your other responses. If you want to argue however, it is better to do so politely, using IMO before or during your post, and then listen and calmly countering where you see others lacking in their views. This is not to say that others are wrong, simply that you feel you can add to areas to try and disprove their current views. Personally to the point of this thread, the answer for me is quite simple. Running at one another on an open plane, guns blazing, against only sword wielding drow, the Special Forces win. In a game of Stealth or hit and run, the Drow win. Why? Scry combined with Greater Teleport trumps any and all maneuvers the SEALS can pull off. It doesn't matter if they can see heat signals, as the drow will sit invisibly in a pocket plane, watching the soldiers quietly, and then the moment they fall asleep, BAM, Dead soldiers. As far as Tech VS magic go, until we can manipulate matter and energy interchangeably with the wave of a hand, all while controlling the flow of time, Magic will most certainly always win in any fight. -RW
MarkusTay63 01-04-08, 07:28 PM	Someone spends much to much time at Youtube... That stuff turns your mind to mush. :rolleyes:
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-04-08, 09:09 PM	-Depending on what type of gun is firing at the armor, I'd give it anywhere between effective (the armor nullifies any injury, except for bruises, etc.) to ineffective (the bullet pierces the armor). The smaller callibres are obviously more likely to fail to pierce the armor, even without enchantments. The heavier callibres are more likely to pierce the armor, even with enchantments, simply by virtue of what we know these weapons can fire through in actual life. Wait, is this the same adamantine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#adamantine) we are talking about? But back to the original premise of this thread, a Special Operations team operating on Toril say in an SG-Team like situation would survive so long as the team does not do anything stupid to jeopardise its mission. Drow operatives not withstanding, the team could reach what ever the objective is, conduct its operation, and exfiltrate back to their point of insertion from Earth to Toril without detection if they follow their training and observe operational security. The team would not have to be made up of U.S. Army Rangers or Special Forces, British SAS, USN S.E.A.L.s or USMC Force Recon to conduct any operation cross-time/ cross-world, they just have to have proper training and proper discipline to conduct their operation without attracting the attention of the locals. Now if it is a cultural observation operation then having someone like Silke on the team would be a benefit to the mission's success. Um, why would the SEALs or any other special forces operative be another drow? It kinda defeats the point of SEALs versus drow then. It'd be SEALs who may be drow versus drow. Or you could see it another way. SEALs versus drow who may be SEALs. The original premise had the SEALs operating on Faerun with no way for their tech or weapons to function, refer to the rules defining the psychics of Abeir-Toril. There's no way that team could survive on Faerun. Personally to the point of this thread, the answer for me is quite simple. Running at one another on an open plane, guns blazing, against only sword wielding drow, the Special Forces win. In a game of Stealth or hit and run, the Drow win. No, it's definitely not as simple as that. There's adamantine and protective enchantments, etc. There's other factors. Yours is the simple-minded approach and a situation that ignores or underestimates the benefits of magic or magic items.
Mifelhagen 01-05-08, 01:05 AM	Well, since the SEALs get to have their equipment and tech function, the drow can have access to wizards and clerics. Well since drow have access to wizards and clerics, seals get grenade launchers, rocket launchers, machine guns, and nerve agent gasses (let me see a drow wizzies and clerics cast spells when she/he's blinded and is coughing out their lungs - there constitution sucks balls). Lets not forget they get strike fighter/bomber jet calls, apaches with hellfire missiles, cruise missiles and mass artillery bombardment calls as summoning abilities. While we're at it, lets give em an overhead map with real-time information(courtesy of your friendly spy planes) and some radar since the drow will ping like crazy. Seriously, this never even included wizards or clerics, which totally changes things in the drows favor - since a wizard = spyplane+apache+gases+tank. That and the fact that the general consensus is that only the drow are conviently ready for this encounter with the appropriate gear and spells memorized (as if they somehow knew these humans had ranged weapons that make almost every other weapon they have an archaic joke) while the seals are stuck with stuff a first year private in the army gets. If drow fighters are involved, the battle would be pretty much go to the drow, especially if their tech cease to function. Funny how in the first sentence of your paragraph you give the seals tech function when they are up against near stacked odds (wizards), then you conveniently take it all away when its just drow fighters in the second sentence. Seals weapons and such are too much for pure drow fighters imo. gun + or - flashbangs = pwn a guy with a sword any day of the weak. throw some grenades in there and drow will be flying all over the place. Bullet, did your guys have access to the special weapons, or did they have generic grunt weapons (m16s or some such with a few grenades).
Straploknight 01-05-08, 01:24 AM	The Drow need centruies of training to aquire the skill they obtain. Not really, they mature at about the same rate humans do in terms of learning. Based on comparative BaB alone, drow are the better combatants in terms of skill. the S.E.A.Ls know a few more tricks, but in raw combat ability the drow trounce them.
Mifelhagen 01-05-08, 01:34 AM	That you have to include all this heavy guns so that the seals even have a chance against a group of normal drows without backup proves that the drow are stronger. Yes Derren, we admit that when a group of "normal" drow has heavy guns (wizards - who happened to have the appropriate spells for a chance encounter) the seals also need to have heavy guns to have a chance (even though the seals won 1/3 with first year army grunt gear...). We also admit that drow fighters, backed up with a wizard and a cleric, all wearing the appropriate magical gear to counter something like a modern fighter(who is at a disadvantage because: a) He gets to have a private's gear b) doesn't have appropriate weapons or support c) drow are somehow already set up to have the appropriate items and magic), will prolly win - with wizards and clerics. I don't know about you guys, but it looks like Lloth cheated by giving some priestesses for-knowledge about this little throw-down. :eek: I guess that means Lloth wins. :D
Mifelhagen 01-05-08, 01:46 AM	The premise then changed because many posters cried foul over Faerunian physics or cried foul for some other (unnecessary) reason and the original intent fell by the wayside. Which was the reason why some other posters, including myself, tried to steer the change back to the original premise. This was met with walls and roadblocks. I think people cried foul because wizards were brought in to a drow fighter versus SEAL fighter fight. Kinda like bringing a gun to a knife fight - which is exactly what a drow fighter versus SEAL fighter is. ;) So yeah, it was initially stacked in the seals favor, until Lloth told the drow to bring some wizards and better gear or else look like a bunch of sorry primitive newbs to some humans (which she can't have, of course).
Stigger 01-05-08, 02:37 AM	Just to preface this, my PSU blew out today and its been hell trying to get a replacement in these wonderful storms we're having, so I'm not in the best of moods, so I apologize now if this comes off as snarky at times. At least what you are familiar with then or what you think helps the SEALs or what you think a 'typical' SEAL would do in a tactical situation in the Faerunian Underdark. It can be simple tactics, that any special forces operatives would utilise, etc. I do have little knowledge of the military, but this doesn't mean that I'm devoid of tactical sense or knowledge of strategic manuvers. I'm at least familiar with how Hollywood portrays special ops and I am well-read and am familiar with the terminology, hence why I've being using it throughout my previous posts. ;) It doesn't exactly help the discussion much or your or your sides' position if you can't post simple tactics. That's the problem, the tactics aren't really all that simple. Setting up enfilades, interlocking fields of fire, covered advances, tactical movement techniques, etcetera aren't things most people know how to do, effectively at least. Ody would probably be better suited to going over it, as my tailbone prevented me from ever finding out firsthand, despite my best attempts. No, but how and why would it be relevant to the premise? As I said, to bring in additions to the equation means this is less about SEALs and more about the US military combined to take down the drow. The drow even with magic are still drow. Faerun is dominated by magic and is inherently magical. If you actually read what I wrote, you'd realise that I never once argued that magic automatically trumps tech. I have argued, however, that magic presents too many options that would null the advantage of tech. And I never said anything about the drow automatically knowing/comprehending what the tech of the SEALs can do. I have and others have, however, consistently argued that the drow are intimately familiar with warfare and battle and are very intelligent to boot, what if the +2 to Int and all, and as a consequence would know how to deal efficiently and sufficiently with the enemy, in this case, SEALs. The same can be said for the SEALs, but my point of centuries to decades separating combat experience comes into play, knowledge of terrain, etc. Also, a new point would be the benefits to stats that the drow are entitled to. This plays another crucial deciding factor. The relevance is that the only way that the SEALs can match the destructive output (Firepower) of a wizard or cleric with combat spells is to call in airstrikes and artillery strikes. Yes, I know, you aren't in favor of a 'fair' fight, but that's the only method available to match the firepower a spellcaster brings to bear, particularly for light infantry. Though I'd argue that it certainly sounded like you were saying that magic trumps tech, with the whole 'name a weapon and I'll tell you how to counter or beat it with magic' bit. Sure, they can deal with conventional threats to them, quite handily with all those years of experience, but nothing in that experience has really prepared them to counter things like 3100fps metal slugs heading at their heads. That velocity is, as far as I'm aware, just simply unknown in weaponry on Faerun. Add in the rate of fire that they can put out, and it just leads to a painful and quite probably deadly new experience in the wrong circumstances. Nothing in the Drow's tactical experience even comes close to that. At least with magic SEALs have the benefit of knowing what explosions and the like are. While fantastic certainly, it is comprehendable on a combat level. Melee weapons they would probably deal with poorly, since I doubt much in their training has prepared them for a melee combatant quite like a veteran Drow fighter. Big difference between a DI with a knife and a Drow. It isn't that simple. However, the point is (and if you missed it the first time): Faerun is suffused with magic, hence drow spellcasters are logical. While orbital relays or fighter jets are not. Obviously you still haven't quite come to terms with that idea of making it an even fight, since nothing the SEALs carry will make up for the firepower that spellcasters can bring to bear. Seriously, a 20th level wizard probably has more destructive potential than an entire artillery battery with the right spell roster. Cope with magic? Now, why do I think that unlikely. ;) That was in reference to the bursts of heat and noise bit you mentioned, in case I hadn't made myself quite clear there. I've already listed many spells that impede tech. What you have argued against it thus far pretty much amounts to 'no, no it can't.' You've always dodged the issue and never given a clear statement as to how tech can counter magic. I thought that was fairly obvious actually, so never bothered to. Radar isn't going to fall for invisibility effects, since it doesn't rely on visual input, but solid matter reflecting and returning a EM signal pulse... even more true of SAA radar sets as I understand them. Thermographic stuff could almost certainly pick them up through invisibility effects, as most do nothing to mask IR or thermal signatures. IR scanners could probably pick them up, which are not IR goggles or NVG, more like the seeker heads on Mavericks and FLIR stuff. That's just invisibility though, and I really don't have the patience to go into much else at the moment. Certainly some things, like Etherealness as we already agreed, can't be countered or negated, but there are a lot of things that can be with the right tools. Whether or not the SEALs actually have stuff like that is debatable mind you. You're forgetting a crucial point, the drow would be knowledgeable, more than knowledgeable in tactics and such; they're experienced combat veterans after all. We are talking about 20th here after all remember? The drow are well-versed in enough battles to sufficiently prepare and protect themselves. You do what any other drow or some other sapient intelligent being would do, you 'suffuse' yourself with protections because you never know what you'd encounter. Again, we're talking about 20th level, so enough spells would be prepared to ensure this happens, or the items possessed would be sufficiently strong enough. You could also take that the other way and say with justification that they have extreme confidence in their own abilities and don't bother with the spells until they get the measure of their foes. Their skills should be enough to keep them going, and its better to save those spells for something they know is a threat, instead of against a bunch of weirdos who don't even have swords... Some would go down to press the point, but the drow are smart enough to figure out for themselves and react accordingly. The SEALs can too, but the point is there is no way they can counter what the drow throw at them via spells, etc. While underestimation may be possible, since these are drow, they refer to other races as oblrith, casualties? (if any) among their ranks would sober them up and ensure they react accordingly. While prone to fits of superiority, the drow are by all means superiorally intelligent (+2 racial bonus to Int). Which if you look at it entitles them to exactly +1 on their Int modifier, which equates to a mere 5% (1/20 = 5%) smarter than most, at best, so its not that much of a difference when you really think about it. Though the not being able to counter what is tossed at them that makes this a uneven matter in the first place. I know you don't have a problem with that, but it makes the battle largely pointless, given the extreme advantage the underdark setting already gives them. At this point I'd be more in favor of putting them both in an arena run by Illithids and see them go at each other that way, both at close range and at a distance. Adamantatine armor, try shooting through that. Now, couple this with protective enchantments. You get the picture? It's not as simple as you make it out to be. You don't have to shoot through it, which I stated quite plainly there if you care to look. Getting shot hurts like very little else. Having seen the effects of bullets hitting people in vests up close and personal (I know a lot of cops for some reason), which are designed to stop a lot of that trauma, the results are far from pretty even under the best of conditions. You don't have to penetrate to do serious damage. Particularly with a 5.56mm metal slug travelling at 3,100 feet per second. Even more so with penetrating military ball ammunition. Except that you're presenting a rather simple-minded approach to things and consistently underestimating magic and magic items, even ignoring or perhaps not comprehending/understanding the very clear point of the drow wearing adamantine and wielding adamantine weapons. And while I agree that it is not a simple as all that, what I have consistently argued is that there are too many options that benefit the drow, that would skew the battle to and in their favor. Nowhere have you or others presented anything that could be not counted by magic, while producing arguments that fall along the lines of 'no, no it won't,' etc. As I said, with enough knowledge of the military and the sheer, nearly incomprehensible level of destruction modern military firepower can bring to bear in seconds, that should be self-evident. To be honest, I'm not sure even a wall of force could actually stand up to the impact of something like a Predator or Javelin missile, as those are designed to penetrate tank armor, which is almost exponentially tougher than what the drow are using. The sheer force required to penetrate modern Chobham armor is just simply staggering... Except it's really not, and I don't know how you're viewing it that way. What I have asked for are points and arguments that counter the arguments of magical benefit. And you seem to be forgetting that the SEALs are the ones in Faerun, not the drow in our world. And again, never have I once argued that magic would automatically pwn tech, it's that it presents too many options. It's like an echo in here. By gifting the SEALs with fighter jets or battle cruisers or ordnance missiles, this becomes indulgent fantasy rather than the gifting of the drow with magic. This unnecessary inflation conflates the original intent, not the other way round. And it's not pointless, again, the SEALs are in Faerun, etc etc ad nauseum. If it were the drow who are in our world, I would rule the battle in favor of the SEALs, simply because magic would not work there and the SEALs would hand their (the drows') sorry arses to them on a platter. I feel the same way about the echo... The point of the ordnance and munitions is that its the only thing in the US inventories that can match the sheer destructive firepower that a wizard can bring to bear. Almost nothing that the SEALs are going to be carrying is going to come anywhere near it, since they're primarily outfitted as light infantry with lots of training. They are not meant to stand up to conventional forces for very long without that artillery and air support, nor are they expected to for long in most combat environments. They rely on stealth and surprise to achieve their goals, not massive amounts of firepower. Speak for yourself, thank you. I agree with following rules is important, but becomes less so when other posters flagrantly ignore them. And you've twisted my words and used them out of context, I never argued that rules should not be adhered to in the context of the versus conflict, what I did say was that adhering to mechanical or design rules when they made no sense was self-limiting. I'm sorry if you feel that I mischaracterized you, but that was certainly the impression you were leaving me with. However that does beg the question of what makes sense and what doesn't... I'd bring up the healing/positive energy thing again, but I really don't feel like rehashing that one. The point is that not everyone is going to agree on what makes sense and what doesn't, which I think our positive energy discussion illustrated nicely. Hopefully that's coherent, I can't say I'm in much of a mood to go back and look it over to see if it does or not. :)
Mifelhagen 01-05-08, 02:49 AM	The same can be said for the SEALs, but my point of centuries to decades separating combat experience comes into play, knowledge of terrain, etc. Also, a new point would be the benefits to stats that the drow are entitled to. This plays another crucial deciding factor. Seriously Shadow, what kind of terrain fighting training have they had other than murdering each other in the underdark? Compare this to SEALS who have been trained to fight in deserts, at sea, in the arctic, in rain forests, etc. The drow don't even have a candle to the 'knowledge of terrain' combat experiance even an average U.S. soldier has. Let alone SEALS who go almost everywhere in any condition. I've already listed many spells that impede tech. What you have argued against it thus far pretty much amounts to 'no, no it can't.' You've always dodged the issue and never given a clear statement as to how tech can counter magic. How about: if you stop making up that some of these spells (that have never encountered modern science) some how have the ability to counter something they never were designed to counter, then we stop saying 'no, no it can't.' You're forgetting a crucial point, the drow would be knowledgeable, more than knowledgeable in tactics and such; they're experienced combat veterans after all. We are talking about 20th here after all remember? No, Shadow, no I don't think the drow are more knowledgeable about tactics and such than the seals are. Remember, the SEALS have been everywhere and seen everything. The seals engage in MODERN combat - not just with opponents who have swords and daggers and bows. What have the drow seen besides other swords and sorcery? Like everyone else on faerun , they are used to up close fights where your opponent has to see the whites of your eyes to do anything significant. And don't forget most drow will for the most part have only seen the underdark. When a wizard starts lobbying fireballs and gas clouds, are the SEALS going to run around screaming like little girls screaming: "OMG, MAGIC! that guy in robes is all-powerful, we're doomed!"? No. more like: "OMG, That guy is spiting out enough power to shame artillery! fall back and snipe him until his gray matter is all over the ground! Toss some grenades at him, quick!" The drow are well-versed in enough battles to sufficiently prepare and protect themselves. You do what any other drow or some other sapient intelligent being would do, you 'suffuse' yourself with protections because you never know what you'd encounter. Again, we're talking about 20th level, so enough spells would be prepared to ensure this happens, or the items possessed would be sufficiently strong enough. The drow are well-versed in enough battles to sufficiently prepare and protect themselves... against the standard level of combat in faerun. NOT against modern warfare. Nothing short of divine inspiration is going to make them ready for flashbangs, grenades/launchers, and headshots from 800 yrds away (About how far away WWII marines were shooting germans). By the way, are you telling me a 20th lvl wizard is required to beat some SEALS? :surrender Some would go down to press the point, but the drow are smart enough to figure out for themselves and react accordingly. The SEALs can too, but the point is there is no way they can counter what the drow throw at them via spells, etc. Right, Shadow. The SEALS are a bunch of mindless orcs that will come at the drow in a mindless wave, clustered together to maximize fireball and lightning damage potential, screaming "ARG! WE CRUSH, WE SMASH!" To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I think that the SEALS are more prepared, mentally, than people give them credit for. SEALS are used to being attacked by forces they can't see - so they try to be unseen themselves. Seals know all about "scrying on an opponent from great distances." Seals know all about the limitations of melee fighting. Seals have seen explosions of all sorts, they've seen mechanized ground forces chewing through people, making m16s or whatever else they use look like useless jokes. They've seen airstrikes of all kinds and long distance assaults of all kinds. They know what 'mystery' gases can do. They will NOT freak out over the sight of magic. Maybe, shocked at some skinny little black guy wearing robes lobbing glorified grenades and smoke bombs at them, but this just means they would focus their fire and grenades at him after the shock of seeing someone wiggle their fingers and hurling lightning at them wears off (all of 1 second). One flashbang is faster than one wizard chanting for 8 seconds (and fumbling their spell in the process) to do anything damaging. A cleric is not going to be able to help someone whose body parts are all over the place, and whose intestines are hanging out/off of their bodies. Except it's really not, and I don't know how you're viewing it that way. What I have asked for are points and arguments that counter the arguments of magical benefit. And you seem to be forgetting that the SEALs are the ones in Faerun, not the drow in our world. And again, never have I once argued that magic would automatically pwn tech, it's that it presents too many options. It's like an echo in here. By gifting the SEALs with fighter jets or battle cruisers or ordnance missiles, this becomes indulgent fantasy rather than the gifting of the drow with magic. This unnecessary inflation conflates the original intent, not the other way round. And it's not pointless, again, the SEALs are in Faerun, etc etc ad nauseum. If it were the drow who are in our world, I would rule the battle in favor of the SEALs, simply because magic would not work there and the SEALs would hand their (the drows') sorry arses to them on a platter. Speak for yourself, thank you. I agree with following rules is important, but becomes less so when other posters flagrantly ignore them. And you've twisted my words and used them out of context, I never argued that rules should not be adhered to in the context of the versus conflict, what I did say was that adhering to mechanical or design rules when they made no sense was self-limiting. Which is it Shadow? Either the SEALS' tech does work or doesn't work? which one is it? You keep changing it on me. And we have already established a wizard stacks it in the drow favor, but of course the initial argument was fighter versus fighter. You seem to have continently forgotten no wizard level magic was included in this fight, but that it was 'allowed' to make this fight fair; it actually made it even MORE lopsided, and so now we have to tip it back into balance again by giving the SEALS power to match what the drow fighter never initially had in the first place.
Mifelhagen 01-05-08, 03:07 AM	One more thing for the night, er morning. Supposed reality aside, lets look at the d20 Modern soldier and the feats they would get. First of all, the standard army rifle m16 in d20 modern does about 2d10 dmg. Did anyone here know that there was a feat that gives an extra 2d10 dmg? Did anyone else here know that there were feats to increase accuracy and critical hit capabilities (i.e. override armor AC)? Anyone else here know there were feats to increase "spray and pray" potential? Yes, all these feats (I don't know if bullet gave his SEALS) exists for people with guns, and their growth potential to be nasty with their weapons is just as large as with a sword fighter, and maybe even larger when they can add an extra 2d10 dmg, and burst multiple 40 potential damaging bullets into people. And if we are talking about high level SEALS, they would at least have +3 or +4 master crafted weapons and armor (of course it appears many have been assuming they would be geared like newbs, but maybe I mis-read these posts). Of course all this pales in comparison to the 20th lvl drow wizard who has 2 stop time spells in his lvl 9 slots, one summon balor, and who had disturbing, prophetic whisperings of humans with strange, deadly weapons the night before from Lloth herself, but still... For everything else, there's a tactical nuke. =D
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-05-08, 07:34 AM	Well since drow have access to wizards and clerics, seals get grenade launchers, rocket launchers, machine guns, and nerve agent gasses (let me see a drow wizzies and clerics cast spells when she/he's blinded and is coughing out their lungs - there constitution sucks balls). Lets not forget they get strike fighter/bomber jet calls, apaches with hellfire missiles, cruise missiles and mass artillery bombardment calls as summoning abilities. While we're at it, lets give em an overhead map with real-time information(courtesy of your friendly spy planes) and some radar since the drow will ping like crazy. Seriously, this never even included wizards or clerics, which totally changes things in the drows favor - since a wizard = spyplane+apache+gases+tank. That and the fact that the general consensus is that only the drow are conviently ready for this encounter with the appropriate gear and spells memorized (as if they somehow knew these humans had ranged weapons that make almost every other weapon they have an archaic joke) while the seals are stuck with stuff a first year private in the army gets. Yes Derren, we admit that when a group of "normal" drow has heavy guns (wizards - who happened to have the appropriate spells for a chance encounter) the seals also need to have heavy guns to have a chance (even though the seals won 1/3 with first year army grunt gear...). We also admit that drow fighters, backed up with a wizard and a cleric, all wearing the appropriate magical gear to counter something like a modern fighter(who is at a disadvantage because: a) He gets to have a private's gear b) doesn't have appropriate weapons or support c) drow are somehow already set up to have the appropriate items and magic), will prolly win - with wizards and clerics. I don't know about you guys, but it looks like Lloth cheated by giving some priestesses for-knowledge about this little throw-down. I guess that means Lloth wins. So I take it you have the missed the point of why wizards and other spellcasting types are suitable for the scenario, then? The question remains one of how. How does the tech affect the situation, what tactical benefits does it confer, etc? I hear all this talk of 'having this and that because it r0k0rz teh pwnz3r winn4r' but never how the tech affects the conflict. No tactics are posted, no specific details as to how the technology of the SEALs beats the drow, while I and others have consistently backed up our arguments with actual tactics and whys. And you're seriously reading what you want to read and thinking what you want to think. Never have I or others ever made the statement that the drow would be conveniently ready or sufficiently prepared as to be near prescient, but (we) have always argued from the point of view of tactics and strategies made by drow in such a situation, something that opposing viewpoint has yet to post on. And it seems you have missed the part where I gave the SEALs the absolute best in arms and equipment for this particular scenario. Actually read what was written before you post something claiming or implying something else. Funny how in the first sentence of your paragraph you give the seals tech function when they are up against near stacked odds (wizards), then you conveniently take it all away when its just drow fighters in the second sentence. Seals weapons and such are too much for pure drow fighters imo. gun + or - flashbangs = pwn a guy with a sword any day of the weak. throw some grenades in there and drow will be flying all over the place. Bullet, did your guys have access to the special weapons, or did they have generic grunt weapons (m16s or some such with a few grenades). No, you are mistaken. The original stipulation had the conflict set in Faerun. According to the information presented in a book involving how to run campaigns in the Realms, physics works differently to how it functions in our world. As a consequence, the tech and arms of the SEALs wouldn't work at the offset. The drow would have won this one without having even to break a sweat. Considering this was rather unfair (again, actually read what others have written), the SEALs get to have their tech to work and have the very best in such. Considering how Faerun is inherently magical, it also made sense for the drow to have access to magical support. Adamantine and other protective enchantments, not magic, would ensure that the bullets do not penetrate. I think people cried foul because wizards were brought in to a drow fighter versus SEAL fighter fight. Kinda like bringing a gun to a knife fight - which is exactly what a drow fighter versus SEAL fighter is. So yeah, it was initially stacked in the seals favor, until Lloth told the drow to bring some wizards and better gear or else look like a bunch of sorry primitive newbs to some humans (which she can't have, of course). No, this was before actual spells came into play. People had already ventured away from the original stipulation. And seriously, do you post just for the sake for posting? It's like there's a broken record here coupled with a severe echo effect. The odds at the offset were stacked at the offset in favor of the drow, not in favor of the SEALs as you so erroneously claim. Conflict in Faerun, physics different, tech no working, bad for SEALs. Rift, astral, bad, etc.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-05-08, 07:57 AM	Just to preface this, my PSU blew out today and its been hell trying to get a replacement in these wonderful storms we're having, so I'm not in the best of moods, so I apologize now if this comes off as snarky at times. No need to apologise, mate. We're all friends here, well some of us at least. Hope you can get your PSU rocking as well as before or better. :) That's the problem, the tactics aren't really all that simple. Setting up enfilades, interlocking fields of fire, covered advances, tactical movement techniques, etcetera aren't things most people know how to do, effectively at least. Ody would probably be better suited to going over it, as my tailbone prevented me from ever finding out firsthand, despite my best attempts. Well, you needn't have to post complicated maneuvers, just tactics or strategies that the SEALs are 'famed for,' you can even look at what they do in movies to get an idea ;). For example, I've already posted how magic affects/effects the SEALs so, you can post how tech affects/effects the drow. The relevance is that the only way that the SEALs can match the destructive output (Firepower) of a wizard or cleric with combat spells is to call in airstrikes and artillery strikes. Yes, I know, you aren't in favor of a 'fair' fight, but that's the only method available to match the firepower a spellcaster brings to bear, particularly for light infantry. It's not that I'm not in favor of a fair fight, but consider the situation, we're in Faerun - inherently magical and saturated with the essence of the Weave - and it's the SEALs in Faerun, not drow on Earth. This was exactly the point I was trying to make. Calling in artillery strikes or orbitals bombardments from on high, the involvement of tanks and fighter jets, all these would require massive portals to even think of even introducing them to the setting. That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Though I'd argue that it certainly sounded like you were saying that magic trumps tech, with the whole 'name a weapon and I'll tell you how to counter or beat it with magic' bit. Sure, they can deal with conventional threats to them, quite handily with all those years of experience, but nothing in that experience has really prepared them to counter things like 3100fps metal slugs heading at their heads. That velocity is, as far as I'm aware, just simply unknown in weaponry on Faerun. Add in the rate of fire that they can put out, and it just leads to a painful and quite probably deadly new experience in the wrong circumstances. Nothing in the Drow's tactical experience even comes close to that. At least with magic SEALs have the benefit of knowing what explosions and the like are. While fantastic certainly, it is comprehendable on a combat level. Melee weapons they would probably deal with poorly, since I doubt much in their training has prepared them for a melee combatant quite like a veteran Drow fighter. Big difference between a DI with a knife and a Drow. I have said that magic trumps, but also consider the reasons and why I said magic trumps tech. Your latter paragraph assumes that the tech actually functions (which I do) and is uncountable by magic (which I don't agree with). If the scenario was set on Earth, I would rule everything in favor of the SEALs, but we're not on Earth, this means that since it is Faerun we are on, magic is a viable option. This is the pertinent point. We're not in a neutral battlefield, we are Faerun. Or do you automatically rule that the Weave wouldn't function all of a sudden? Obviously you still haven't quite come to terms with that idea of making it an even fight, since nothing the SEALs carry will make up for the firepower that spellcasters can bring to bear. Seriously, a 20th level wizard probably has more destructive potential than an entire artillery battery with the right spell roster. *ahem* Read the points I made why this can't be a fair fight and why a belief in a fair fight in this context and situation is erroneous. That was in reference to the bursts of heat and noise bit you mentioned, in case I hadn't made myself quite clear there. I know, I was playing with ya. And I even used an emoticon this time! ;) I thought that was fairly obvious actually, so never bothered to. Radar isn't going to fall for invisibility effects, since it doesn't rely on visual input, but solid matter reflecting and returning a EM signal pulse... even more true of SAA radar sets as I understand them. Thermographic stuff could almost certainly pick them up through invisibility effects, as most do nothing to mask IR or thermal signatures. IR scanners could probably pick them up, which are not IR goggles or NVG, more like the seeker heads on Mavericks and FLIR stuff. That's just invisibility though, and I really don't have the patience to go into much else at the moment. Certainly some things, like Etherealness as we already agreed, can't be countered or negated, but there are a lot of things that can be with the right tools. Whether or not the SEALs actually have stuff like that is debatable mind you. Just as you can't jump to conclusions, I too am obligated not to jump or leap to incorrect assumptions. It actually helps your point of view to frame arguments that are tangible, see we have something that we can work from. No, but radar may fall to something that confuses it, ie intense vibrations caused by the earthquake spell, etc, or something else that creates such an effect. There are also certainly other spells and other ways of countering thermal imaging tech, like fireball spells or fireshields or any spells creating an effect of disproportionate heat. You could also take that the other way and say with justification that they have extreme confidence in their own abilities and don't bother with the spells until they get the measure of their foes. Their skills should be enough to keep them going, and its better to save those spells for something they know is a threat, instead of against a bunch of weirdos who don't even have swords... Yes, that is what I was arguing, I have also said that magic is a viable option and something they would fall on. Since it's the drow and they have that insufferable superiority complex. Which if you look at it entitles them to exactly +1 on their Int modifier, which equates to a mere 5% (1/20 = 5%) smarter than most, at best, so its not that much of a difference when you really think about it. Though the not being able to counter what is tossed at them that makes this a uneven matter in the first place. I know you don't have a problem with that, but it makes the battle largely pointless, given the extreme advantage the underdark setting already gives them. At this point I'd be more in favor of putting them both in an arena run by Illithids and see them go at each other that way, both at close range and at a distance. Wait, how does +2 become a +1 again? I'm confused... Well, again, you're not considering where the conflict is set in and reasons why magic is okay while additional tech is extraneous and 'not realistic,' ie the necessity of massive portals to bring all that equipment in. And clearly illithids would win. The sons of Cthulhu would triumph over the cattle that are drow and humans ;). You don't have to shoot through it, which I stated quite plainly there if you care to look. Getting shot hurts like very little else. Having seen the effects of bullets hitting people in vests up close and personal (I know a lot of cops for some reason), which are designed to stop a lot of that trauma, the results are far from pretty even under the best of conditions. You don't have to penetrate to do serious damage. Particularly with a 5.56mm metal slug travelling at 3,100 feet per second. Even more so with penetrating military ball ammunition. No, but at least consider what adamantine confers. It's in the SRD if you wish to peruse the mechanics/design. As I said, with enough knowledge of the military and the sheer, nearly incomprehensible level of destruction modern military firepower can bring to bear in seconds, that should be self-evident. To be honest, I'm not sure even a wall of force could actually stand up to the impact of something like a Predator or Javelin missile, as those are designed to penetrate tank armor, which is almost exponentially tougher than what the drow are using. The sheer force required to penetrate modern Chobham armor is just simply staggering... Well, I'm just tossing wall of force out there as legitimate tactic. Time to freshen your knowledge of spells methinks. Consider wall of force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm), namely the part where it is immune to all kinds of damage. I feel the same way about the echo... The point of the ordnance and munitions is that its the only thing in the US inventories that can match the sheer destructive firepower that a wizard can bring to bear. Almost nothing that the SEALs are going to be carrying is going to come anywhere near it, since they're primarily outfitted as light infantry with lots of training. They are not meant to stand up to conventional forces for very long without that artillery and air support, nor are they expected to for long in most combat environments. They rely on stealth and surprise to achieve their goals, not massive amounts of firepower. I think I already addressed this. I'm sorry if you feel that I mischaracterized you, but that was certainly the impression you were leaving me with. However that does beg the question of what makes sense and what doesn't... I'd bring up the healing/positive energy thing again, but I really don't feel like rehashing that one. The point is that not everyone is going to agree on what makes sense and what doesn't, which I think our positive energy discussion illustrated nicely. Hopefully that's coherent, I can't say I'm in much of a mood to go back and look it over to see if it does or not. Not worried about the mischaracterisation, however, you did take what I said for another argument and twist it to suit your purposes. And it was entirely for a different argument, I never said anything to the effect of ignoring rules where the conflict was concerned. And I agree that people would often disagree, etc, but that's the fun of discussion isn't it? ;)
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-05-08, 08:18 AM	Seriously Shadow, what kind of terrain fighting training have they had other than murdering each other in the underdark? Compare this to SEALS who have been trained to fight in deserts, at sea, in the arctic, in rain forests, etc. The drow don't even have a candle to the 'knowledge of terrain' combat experiance even an average U.S. soldier has. Let alone SEALS who go almost everywhere in any condition. The point I was getting at was their knowledge of tactics and strategies that come from centuries of experience compared to the SEALs decades. And you mistakenly assume that the Underdark is just one fixated terrain environment. It's not. The drow use levitation, they use faerie fire, they use globes of darkness that even creatures with darkvision cannot see through, they use the terrain, ie crevasses, caves features, etc, to their advantage, etc. How about: if you stop making up that some of these spells (that have never encountered modern science) some how have the ability to counter something they never were designed to counter, then we stop saying 'no, no it can't.' :/ I'm not making anything up. Go read the SRD, the PHB and the DMG. Do that first before you make such claims. No, Shadow, no I don't think the drow are more knowledgeable about tactics and such than the seals are. Remember, the SEALS have been everywhere and seen everything. The seals engage in MODERN combat - not just with opponents who have swords and daggers and bows. What have the drow seen besides other swords and sorcery? Like everyone else on faerun , they are used to up close fights where your opponent has to see the whites of your eyes to do anything significant. And don't forget most drow will for the most part have only seen the underdark. When a wizard starts lobbying fireballs and gas clouds, are the SEALS going to run around screaming like little girls screaming: "OMG, MAGIC! that guy in robes is all-powerful, we're doomed!"? No. more like: "OMG, That guy is spiting out enough power to shame artillery! fall back and snipe him until his gray matter is all over the ground! Toss some grenades at him, quick!" I have argued the point from the perspective of centuries of experience to decades, it's really clear, all you need to do is to read it. This makes them potent in any conflict situation. And can you really claim that the SEALs have seen everything and been everywhere? Can such absolute subjective statements actually be certainties? Ah, you think because 'archaic' combat is the more 'primitive' combat that the SEALs can/would win. No, we're talking about fantasy combat. We're talking about 20th level characters. Many drow have to venture to the surface to prove themselves, or must face dangerous enemies as a rite of passage, ie the Blooding. You are mistaken that most drow have only seen the Underdark. This is not true. The drow are well-versed in enough battles to sufficiently prepare and protect themselves... against the standard level of combat in faerun. NOT against modern warfare. Nothing short of divine inspiration is going to make them ready for flashbangs, grenades/launchers, and headshots from 800 yrds away (About how far away WWII marines were shooting germans). By the way, are you telling me a 20th lvl wizard is required to beat some SEALS? Wow, exaggerate much? Have you not considered the items that protect against your vaunted and feared/fearsome SEALs? Adamantine isn't even magic or magical, and already that proves to something that would solidly stop a lot of what the SEALs may throw at the drow. Right, Shadow. The SEALS are a bunch of mindless orcs that will come at the drow in a mindless wave, clustered together to maximize fireball and lightning damage potential, screaming "ARG! WE CRUSH, WE SMASH!" To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I think that the SEALS are more prepared, mentally, than people give them credit for. SEALS are used to being attacked by forces they can't see - so they try to be unseen themselves. Seals know all about "scrying on an opponent from great distances." Seals know all about the limitations of melee fighting. Seals have seen explosions of all sorts, they've seen mechanized ground forces chewing through people, making m16s or whatever else they use look like useless jokes. They've seen airstrikes of all kinds and long distance assaults of all kinds. They know what 'mystery' gases can do. They will NOT freak out over the sight of magic. Maybe, shocked at some skinny little black guy wearing robes lobbing glorified grenades and smoke bombs at them, but this just means they would focus their fire and grenades at him after the shock of seeing someone wiggle their fingers and hurling lightning at them wears off (all of 1 second). One flashbang is faster than one wizard chanting for 8 seconds (and fumbling their spell in the process) to do anything damaging. A cleric is not going to be able to help someone whose body parts are all over the place, and whose intestines are hanging out/off of their bodies. Now, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that the SEALs were mindless orcs that come out in a mindless wave to overwhelm the drow. In fact, I actually had them operating in sweeper teams to clear out potential blindspots or defensive positions. Wait, how do SEALs know all about scrying from a distance again? And again, you assume too highly of tech and the impotence of magic. Which is it Shadow? Either the SEALS' tech does work or doesn't work? which one is it? You keep changing it on me. And we have already established a wizard stacks it in the drow favor, but of course the initial argument was fighter versus fighter. You seem to have continently forgotten no wizard level magic was included in this fight, but that it was 'allowed' to make this fight fair; it actually made it even MORE lopsided, and so now we have to tip it back into balance again by giving the SEALS power to match what the drow fighter never initially had in the first place. Go read the responses. If the original stipulation is followed, then tech does not function. If we are arguing that tech functions, then it functions. And you seem to have conveniently forgotten that because the physics of Faerun work in the way it does, the tech of the SEALs wouldn't have even worked in the first place. To counter your damage variables, I can present adamantine armor. And crossbow bolts filled or tipped with poison, a tactic that the drow favor.
Derren S. 01-05-08, 12:51 PM	I think people cried foul because wizards were brought in to a drow fighter versus SEAL fighter fight. Kinda like bringing a gun to a knife fight - which is exactly what a drow fighter versus SEAL fighter is. Lvl 20 Fighters have so much magical equipment that they don't really need wizards and clerics to deal with the Seals. So yeah, it was initially stacked in the seals favor, until Lloth told the drow to bring some wizards and better gear or else look like a bunch of sorry primitive newbs to some humans (which she can't have, of course). Not better gear, just level appropriate gear. That is enough to destroy the seals which aren't newbs but also level 20 soldiers. But as they don't have magic they will loose. First of all, the standard army rifle m16 in d20 modern does about 2d10 dmg. Did anyone here know that there was a feat that gives an extra 2d10 dmg? Did anyone else here know that there were feats to increase accuracy and critical hit capabilities (i.e. override armor AC)? Anyone else here know there were feats to increase "spray and pray" potential? Yes, all these feats (I don't know if bullet gave his SEALS) exists for people with guns, and their growth potential to be nasty with their weapons is just as large as with a sword fighter, and maybe even larger when they can add an extra 2d10 dmg, and burst multiple 40 potential damaging bullets into people. The M16 and the M4 do 2d8 damage. Only the G3 does 2d10. I assume that the +2D8 damage you mentiones is Burst Fire. That is fine but useless if the Drow is invisible as it can't be combined with Autofire (which as I have mentioned before has a DC 15 Reflex Save to negate). And the drow have feats too you know. And if we are talking about high level SEALS, they would at least have +3 or +4 master crafted weapons and armor (of course it appears many have been assuming they would be geared like newbs, but maybe I mis-read these posts). A +4 Masterwork is nothing compared to +6 Weapons and Armor the Drow have in addition to all other magical items. Of course all this pales in comparison to the 20th lvl drow wizard who has 2 stop time spells in his lvl 9 slots, one summon balor, and who had disturbing, prophetic whisperings of humans with strange, deadly weapons the night before from Lloth herself, but still... For everything else, there's a tactical nuke. =D Just compare your level 20 soldier with +4 masterwork weapon to a level 20 Drow fighter with +6 or +7 weapon and armor, rings of protection, cloak of displacment, boots of dimension door and all the potions he has. 4d8 damage per attack is nothing compared what the drow can do and there is so much magic which negates the range advantage of the seals (for example fog clouds (concealment), invisibility (aka the seals loose spell) or dimension door/teleport). And when the seals get into contact with the drow they can sunder the guns, disarm them or simply do a 100-200 damage full attack while the Seals will still have trouble beating teh drows AC with their 3rd and 4th attacks..
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 01:35 PM	Wait, is this the same adamantine we are talking about? -Indeed, it is. Drow are not going to be wearing Heavy Armor, as they negates their DEX scores. So, they are going to have Light or Medium armor. I'd like to see Adamantine chainmail withstanding armor-piercing ammo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell#Armor-piercing_ammunition). Remember, I said that it would depend on the type of gun.
Derren S. 01-05-08, 02:09 PM	It happens because they rules say it does. Also Adamantine has the same hardness as a M1A2 Tank. Think about it. Sure a chain shirt is much thinner and overall not as protective but it shows how hard adamantine is.
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 05:17 PM	It happens because they rules say it does. Also Adamantine has the same hardness as a M1A2 Tank. Think about it. Sure a chain shirt is much thinner and overall not as protective but it shows how hard adamantine is. -Alright, but when shot from a gun equipped with armor piercing rounds, as demonstrated before, the armor is going to be pierced. There was no context given (ie, SEALs need to have said weapon/ammo readily available), so, the armor is sitting on a stand somewhere, and is being shot at.
Derren S. 01-05-08, 05:33 PM	And? The armor still does provide its full AC bonus so it doesn't matter. Especially as the armor will likely be enchanted so that it is even harder than a tank.
Warning 01-05-08, 05:34 PM	it is even harder than a tank. ROFL, what are you smoking?
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 05:44 PM	And? The armor still does provide its full AC bonus so it doesn't matter. Especially as the armor will likely be enchanted so that it is even harder than a tank. -Then a heavier gun is used until it gets the job done. Take into account it is going to grow stucturally weaker as round after round is pumped into the same point over and over.
MarkusTay63 01-05-08, 05:50 PM	Theres also a new type of gun, that can shoot around corners. (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/12/us-police-get-g.html) In an underground environment, that would make all the difference in the world. I was going to PS a pic of a Drow clubbing a baby seal, but then I decided it really wasn't worth the effort. :P
Derren S. 01-05-08, 05:50 PM	ROFL, what are you smoking? Nothing. As per D20 Modern rules a M1A2 has a hardness of 20, the same as adamantine has. And through enchantment the armor gets even harder. -Then a heavier gun is used until it gets the job done. Take into account it is going to grow stucturally weaker as round after round is pumped into the same point over and over. And what weapon should that be? Also this isn't covered by the D&D rules. By the rules the seals can of course hit the drow. It will be hard because of enchanted armor and other protective gear, not because of adamantine. The little DR this armor gives doesn't matter much.
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 05:56 PM	Theres also a new type of gun, that can shoot around corners. (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/12/us-police-get-g.html) In an underground environment, that would make all the difference in the world. -While certainly useful, it looked slightly silly. ;) And what weapon should that be? -Whatever weapon fits the bill. Also this isn't covered by the D&D rules. By the rules the seals can of course hit the drow. It will be hard because of enchanted armor and other protective gear, not because of adamantine. The little DR this armor gives doesn't matter much. -We're not talking about SEALs and Drow right now.
Derren S. 01-05-08, 06:05 PM	-We're not talking about SEALs and Drow right now. Oh sorry, I got confused by the thread title and all the other people who did discuss about seals vs drow.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 12:30 AM	Oh sorry, I got confused by the thread title and all the other people who did discuss about seals vs drow. -You should pay more attention, then. It does wonders.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 01:23 AM	Lvl 20 Fighters have so much magical equipment that they don't really need wizards and clerics to deal with the Seals. Except that magic is a perfectly viable option to be utilised or exploited as seen fit by the drow. The talk of bringing in orbital relays, fighter jets, cruise missile ships or multiple bombardment platforms into Faerun to counter a perceived or supposed "imbalance" is, frankly, illogical and silly. I have to italicise Faerun, because that's exactly where the conflict is 'scheduled.' Faerun. If it was a neutral field of battle, the SEALs can knock themselves out by bringing in additional equipment, or similarly if the conflict transpired on Earth, the SEALs can access whatever they like. But it's Faerun, not any of those other places. -Indeed, it is. Drow are not going to be wearing Heavy Armor, as they negates their DEX scores. So, they are going to have Light or Medium armor. I'd like to see Adamantine chainmail withstanding armor-piercing ammo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell#Armor-piercing_ammunition). Remember, I said that it would depend on the type of gun. The drow could be wearing light or medium armor, but it doesn't preclude the stronger ones from donning heavy armor. Ryld wore a dwarven breastplate and that was pretty heavy. FYI, adamantine is a special material, not an armor type/category. And do you understand what DR X/- means? Have you even read the qualities of adamantine and the benefits it confers? Go here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction). -Then a heavier gun is used until it gets the job done. Take into account it is going to grow stucturally weaker as round after round is pumped into the same point over and over. Examples? And don't just say 'because we say so.' Oh sorry, I got confused by the thread title and all the other people who did discuss about seals vs drow. Yes, silly us for actually paying attention to the thread and the OP. -You should pay more attention, then. It does wonders. His sarcasm escaped you I see.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 01:36 AM	The drow could be wearing light or medium armor, but it doesn't preclude the stronger ones from donning heavy armor. Ryld wore a dwarven breastplate and that was pretty heavy. FYI, adamantine is a special material, not an armor type/category. -Heavy Armor comes with Armor Check penalties that makes their sneaking abilities less effective. And, it messes with a Wizard's ability to cast, as well. It's highly unlikely, in my mind- especially for a random patrol that just happens to stumble upon a group of SEALs spelunking in the Underdark. And do you understand what DR X/- means? Have you even read the qualities of adamantine and the benefits it confers? Go here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction). -Yes, yes, yes... Examples? And don't just say 'because we say so.' -Examples of what? An item's quality diminishing after being damaged? In D&D terms, that's what item hardness, Hit Points and Armor Class are for, aren't they. I don't use those rules, however... His sarcasm escaped you I see. -No, he was being 'snarky', and I responded in turn.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 01:44 AM	-Heavy Armor comes with Armor Check penalties that makes their sneaking abilities less effective. And, it messes with a Wizard's ability to cast, as well. It's highly unlikely, in my mind- especially for a random patrol that just happens to stumble upon a group of SEALs spelunking in the Underdark. Um, what? Why would an arcane caster type wear heavy armor?...how does a wizard become one of the stronger ones all of a sudden?... Since the drow in question would've already donned heavy armor, they wouldn't care if they are less stealthy or less dextrous than their peers. The drow patrol would be sufficiently prepared but not overly so, since they are patroling the wilds of the Underdark. They would have to rely on drow tactics. -Yes, yes, yes... Really? Specifically that adamantine confers DR 1/- to light armor, DR 2/- to medium armor and DR 3/- to heavy armor? And that "When a damage reduction entry has a dash (-) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction"? And that "Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20"? -Examples of what? An item's quality diminishing after being damaged? In D&D terms, that's what item hardness, Hit Points and Armor Class are for, aren't they. I don't use those rules, however... No, I was referring to what guns can overcome adamantine. -No, he was being 'snarky', and I responded in turn. Sarcasm is different to snarkiness.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 01:52 AM	Um, what? Why would an arcane caster type wear heavy armor?... -They wouldn't, which is my point. Since the drow in question would've already donned heavy armor, they wouldn't care if they are less stealthy or less dextrous than their peers. The drow patrol would be sufficiently prepared but not overly so, since they are patroling the wilds of the Underdark. They would have to rely on drow tactics. -Why would a party of Drow slinking around, patroling the Underdark be garbed in Heavy Armor, that gives them penalties to sneaking, hiding, climbing, swiming, and a host of other abilities one might need to rely on while exploring? The four Heavy Armors (Splint, Banded, Half-Plate and Full-Plate) bestow a -7, -6, -7, -6, respectivley, to those relevant skills. Really? Specifically that adamantine confers DR 1/- to light armor, DR 2/- to medium armor and DR 3/- to heavy armor? And that "When a damage reduction entry has a dash (-) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction"? -Indeed. No, I was referring to what guns can overcome adamantine. -According to Derren, "Adamantine has the same hardness as a M1A2 Tank". Thus, any weapon with ammunition designed to pierce M1A2 tanks works. Sarcasm is different to snarkiness. -The two are related. Snarkiness is a more...aggressive form of sarcasm.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 01:59 AM	-They wouldn't, which is my point. No, your point actually quite plainly stated that wizards would be wearing heavy armor, since it 'interferes with their spellcasting.' My point and statement was that it would be only the stronger ones that wear it, not wizards. -Why would a party of Drow slinking around, patroling the Underdark be garbed in Heavy Armor, that gives them penalties to sneaking, hiding, climbing, swiming, and a host of other abilities one might need to rely on while exploring? The four Heavy Armors (Splint, Banded, Half-Plate and Full-Plate) bestow a -7, -6, -7, -6, respectivley, to those relevant skills. Wait, how do you know that the party of drow would be slinking around? Can you automatically assume that the drow party would be inclined to and only inclined to stealth? No, the drow patrol would be composed of different members with different roles, and thusly different arms and armor. -Indeed. Because it really seems to me that you haven't. -According to Derren, "Adamantine has the same hardness as a M1A2 Tank". Thus, any weapon with ammunition designed to pierce M1A2 tanks works. Specifically what would that be? -The two are related. Snarkiness is a more...aggressive form of sarcasm. He wasn't being aggressive and wasn't being snarky. He would've been hitting his head against the wall though.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 02:12 AM	No, your point actually quite plainly stated that wizards would be wearing heavy armor, since it 'interferes with their spellcasting.' My point and statement was that it would be only the stronger ones that wear it, not wizards. -My point was that the members of the group would not be wearing heavy armor. I then justified this, in the case of the Wizards in the party, by demonstrating how wearing Heavy Armor would impede their ability to cast spells. Wait, how do you know that the party of drow would be slinking around? Can you automatically assume that the drow party would be inclined to and only inclined to stealth? No, the drow patrol would be composed of different members with different roles, and thusly different arms and armor. -And, you think that the Drow patrol would be "blatently" walking around in the wilds of the Underdark? That's unrealistic, if this is a random Drow patrol group. It only takes a single member of the party to be noisy (fail a Move Silently check) to give up the location of the entire group to roaming creatures in the Underdark. It only takes a single member not being able to hide from a creature (fail a Hide check) to give up the location of the entire group to roaming creatures in the Underdark. Of course they are going to be armed and armored differently, but it is unrealistic to say that members of the patrol are going to be garbed in Heavy Armor. A war party? Sure. A raiding party? Sure. A scout/patrol party? No, I don't think so. Specifically what would that be? -Well, the 40 mm L70 is a random weapon that would work. He wasn't being aggressive and wasn't being snarky. -He seemed so to me, and that is all that matters.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 02:22 AM	-My point was that the members of the group would not be wearing heavy armor. I then justified this, in the case of the Wizards in the party, by demonstrating how wearing Heavy Armor would impede their ability to cast spells. Except you quite plainly said that wizards would be wearing heavy armor, what with the negatively affecting the casting of spells and all; since wizards wouldn't even wear heavy armor in the first place, this is quite illogical and irrelevant by/in itself. You never actually gave a reason or explanation why the drow wouldn't be wearing heavy armor, except that it would impede their dex or sneaking. I stated that the stronger ones would wear it and wouldn't care if it impeded them. -And, you think that the Drow patrol would be "blatently" walking around in the wilds of the Underdark? That's unrealistic, if this is a random Drow patrol group. It only takes a single member of the party to be noisy (fail a Move Silently check) to give up the location of the entire group to roaming creatures in the Underdark. It only takes a single member not being able to hide from a creature (fail a Hide check) to give up the location of the entire group to roaming creatures in the Underdark. Of course they are going to be armed and armored differently, but it is unrealistic to say that members of the patrol are going to be garbed in Heavy Armor. A war party? Sure. A raiding party? Sure. A scout/patrol party? No, I don't think so. No, I never said anything about blatantly moving around. I did say that it is no good to just automatically assume that the drow would be slinkers and stealthy types. These are drow, they would likely want to present and project a presence to all in the vicinity, especially if they wish to retain that portion of the Underdark. You also seem to have a rather personal, subjective take of what constitutes a patrol party. It is not unrealistic to have one or more members of the patrol party to wear heavy armor. What is unrealistic is artificially limiting their options. A war party, yes. A patrol party, also very yes. -Well, the 40 mm L70 is a random weapon that would work. And what about the hardness and thickness of the special material? Does it go through that? -He seemed so to me, and that is all that matters. Except where you misrepresent him and mischaracterise him, or falsely imply something.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 02:47 AM	Except you quite plainly said that wizards would be wearing heavy armor, what with the negatively affecting the casting of spells and all; since wizards wouldn't even wear heavy armor in the first place, this is quite illogical and irrelevant by/in itself. -Wizards wearing Heavy Armor is indeed illogical, which is why I said that it is highly unlikely that the Drow in the group (Wizard included) would be wearing Heavy Armor. You never actually gave a reason or explanation why the drow wouldn't be wearing heavy armor, except that it would impede their dex or sneaking. I stated that the stronger ones would wear it and wouldn't care if it impeded them. -See my response above or below, then. No, I never said anything about blatantly moving around. I did say that it is no good to just automatically assume that the drow would be slinkers and stealthy types. These are drow, they would likely want present and project a presence to all in the vicinity, especially if they wish to retain that portion of the Underdark. You seem to have a rather personal, subjective take of what constitutes a patrol party. -According to Underdark, a Drow Scouting party consists of 1d3+2 1st level Warriors, and 1 NPC (1d3+1 Level) leader, which can be a Cleric, Fighter, Rogue or Wizard. A Drow Patrol party consists of 1d3+2 Fighters (Level 1d3+2), 1 NPC Cleric (1d3+5 Level), and 1 NPC Wizard (1d4+4). Drow inhabit the Middledark, which is home to wandering Formians, Grell, Hook Horrors, Maurs, Mind Flayers, Orogs, and Umber Hulks. Based on the extreme care Drow Patrol parties take in the novel Homeland, Patrol parties take care to not attract unwarranted attention. Thus, they would eschew instruments that would draw undue attention to them- lit torches, for example. Heavy Armors make it harder to perform the more basic duties one needs to survive in the Underdark- Balancing, Climbing, Escaping, Hiding, Jumping, Moving Silently, Tumbling, and Swimming. A -6 or -7 penalty is sufficient to not only negate the natural DEX bonus to these skills, and skill points invested in them, but to bring them into negatives as well. It is illogical to believe that any member of the Patrol party is going to sacrifice these necessary skills in favor of armor- armor that ultimatley proves unnecessary if the aforementioned skills are used sucessfully. Furthermore, The Drow of the Underdark (Zanan: ;)) specifically states that Drow "Warriors (Figher being synonymous in 2e) on patrol" wear Chain mail. And what about the hardness and thickness of the special material? Does it go through that? -Yes. Except where you misrepresent him and mischaracterise him, or falsely imply something. -Except I'm not.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 02:58 AM	-Wizards wearing Heavy Armor is indeed illogical, which is why I said that it is highly unlikely that the Drow in the group (Wizard included) would be wearing Heavy Armor. You merely gave the statement that heavy armor would make their stealthiness less effective and that it would hamper a wizard's spellcasting effectiveness/ability. Why would it be highly unlikely for drow to wear heavy armor? The example involving the wizard was irrelevant. You could have produced a better example. -See my response above or below, then. Also refer to the above. What do you provide as a counter to my statement that the stronger ones would don heavy armor? You can't just say it is merely highly unlikely. -According to Underdark, a Drow Scouting party consists of 1d3+2 1st level Warriors, and 1 NPC (1d3+1 Level) leader, which can be a Cleric, Fighter, Rogue or Wizard. A Drow Patrol party consists of 1d3+2 Fighters (Level 1d3+2), 1 NPC Cleric (1d3+5 Level), and 1 NPC Wizard (1d4+4). Drow inhabit the Middledark, which is home to wandering Formians, Grell, Hook Horrors, Maurs, Mind Flayers, Orogs, and Umber Hulks. Based on the extreme care Drow Patrol parties take in the novel Homeland, Patrol parties take care to not attract unwarranted attention. Thus, they would eschew instruments that would draw undue attention to them- lit torches, for example. Heavy Armors make it harder to perform the more basic duties one needs to survive in the Underdark- Balancing, Climbing, Escaping, Hiding, Jumping, Moving Silently, Tumbling, and Swimming. A -6 or -7 penalty is sufficient to not only negate the natural DEX bonus to these skills, and skill points invested in them, but to bring them into negatives as well. It is illogical to believe that any member of the Patrol party is going to sacrifice these necessary skills in favor of armor- armor that ultimatley proves unnecessary if the aforementioned skills are used sucessfully. Furthermore, The Drow of the Underdark (Zanan: ;)) specifically states that Drow "Warriors (Figher being synonymous in 2e) on patrol" wear Chain mail. Which Underdark? The Forgotten Realms specific supplement I assume? The supplements gave statistics to the composition of a drow patrol party but don't provide the mechanics for individual members. Hence, heavy armor is something that could be possible. And the description of a drow party in that novel is merely and exactly that, one description. One way of doing things. Other drow parties would eschew stealth for something else. There would likely be drow parties that don't care for stealth or care little for stealth and see presenting a solid front as more vital. It is illogical to pigeonhole drow patrol party members as only favoring stealth or only using stealth. It is also illogical to pigeonhole members as only favoring one armor. In a true patrol party, you'll find different roles and hence different arms and armors. Also, realise we are talking about 20th level drow here. -Except I'm not. By mislabelling him as snarky, you quite clearly were/are. He wasn't even personally attacking you.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 03:23 AM	Except you never said any of that, you merely gave the statement that heavy armor would make their stealthiness less effective and that it would hamper a wizard's spellcasting effectiveness/ability. You never said that they would not be wearing heavy armor. -Are you arguing fr the sake of arguing at this point? What you do provide as a counter to my statement that the stronger ones would don heavy armor? -Multiple points: Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14748329&postcount=727), here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14753744&postcount=739), here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14753854&postcount=741), here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14753978&postcount=743), and here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14754167&postcount=745). Which Underdark? The Forgotten Realms specific supplement I assume? -There is only 1 D&D supplement called Underdark. The supplements gave statistics to the composition of a drow patrol party but don't provide the mechanics for individual members. Hence, heavy armor is something that could be possible. -For the reasons given above, Clerics, Fighters, Rogues, Warriors and Wizards wearing Heavy Armor would be unrealistic. And the description of a drow party in that novel is merely and exactly that, one description. One way of doing things. Other drow parties would eschew stealth for something else. There would likely be drow parties that don't care for stealth or care little for stealth and see presenting a solid front as more vital. -So, we're going to be throwing out factual examples, in favor of assumptions now. By mislabelling him as snarky, you quite clearly were/are. He wasn't even personally attacking you. -I, however, am not mislabeling him as snarky. His comment was sarcastic, with the rolling eyes and the grin on the face- snarky.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 03:29 AM	-Are you arguing fr the sake of arguing at this point? The point of discussion is expressing your points in tangible form and not as half-hearted or half-discussed or half-touched upon. That was the point of the post, but I've already changed the content of that post. I did read your post, but wanted you to give more pertinent points and better examples, to help your position. Just because you can't find another good point to post doesn't mean or equate that I am arguing for the sake of arguing. And you haven't even countered my point of the stronger drow in the party having the strength to don heavy armor. -Multiple points: Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14748329&postcount=727), here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14753744&postcount=739), here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14753854&postcount=741), here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14753978&postcount=743), and here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14754167&postcount=745). I hardly find them to be sufficient reason to arbitrarily deny heavy armor to the drow. You're arguing the same point over and over and over again even when I poked holes through it. -There is only 1 D&D supplement called Underdark. Obviously, but the other supplements can be shortened to Underdark. -For the reasons given above, Clerics, Fighters, Rogues, Warriors and Wizards wearing Heavy Armor would be unrealistic. Not for clerics, not for fighters, not for warriors. For wizards, yes, and something I already mentioned. For rogues, yes. -So, we're going to be throwing out factual examples, in favor of assumptions now. No, but the point of those statistics is to present only an example of a drow party. Obviously not all drow parties are going to composed like that. And again, realise the drow we are talking about are 20th level. So your example falls flat and is irrelevant. -I, however, am not mislabeling him as snarky. His comment was sarcastic, with the rolling eyes and the grin on the face- snarky. Wow, just a couple of posts above, you quite clearly labeled him as snarky. Deny much?
Philalexandros 01-06-08, 04:22 AM	According to the information presented in a book involving how to run campaigns in the Realms, physics works differently to how it functions in our world. What book is that? The question remains one of how. How does the tech affect the situation, what tactical benefits does it confer, etc? ... No tactics are posted, ... A very good point. The premise of this conflict needs to be qualified with certain basic elements if we're going to have a fair debate. Who, where, when, and, perhaps, why are very important questions to ask. We're talking about Navy SEALs, right? What does "SEALs" mean? Are we talking about a SEAL operator engaged in a one-on-one fight with a drow? How experienced is either individual? Are we talking about a SEAL that's just out of BUD/S and recently assigned to a unit, or a Senior Chief with 10+ years spent in a variety of theatres and operations? Is the drow elf a fighter? A mage? Both? Or are we talking about groups? What kind of groups? A SEAL Team comprises three, forty man Task Units. Each Task Unit has two SEAL platoons, each with sixteen men. The two platoons correspond to eight four-man fire teams. SEALs assigned to a Task Unit might fall under the (I'm only listing those likely to be applicable) core skills of breaching, climbing, communications, corpsman (medic), driver, engineering, heavy weapons operator, point-man/navigator, sniper, etc. What kind of equipment are we talking about? Much of it is classified, but we do know of the basics: an eight-man squad will have both light and heavy machineguns, at least one grenade launcher, and at least one sniper-specific rifle. Both night-vision (think D&D Low-Light vision) and thermal imagery (think Dark Vision) optics will be available. Weapon optics and pointers currently allow for both higher accuracy (red-dot scopes, infrared beams) and flexibility of use (scopes transmitting feed to a helmet-mounted HUD). Tactical radios mean instant communication. Grenades are one thing; flash-bang grenades would be the bane for any spellcaster; a drow even moreso. See below for body armour considerations. Well, you needn't have to post complicated maneuvers, just tactics or strategies that the SEALs are 'famed for,' ... Well, again, we need concretely defined opposing groups. For example, if one were to use a drow patrol as defined by Menzoberranzan the boxed set... a SEAL platoon would wipe the floor clean with them in more situations than not. To begin with, we're talking about a massive firepower advantage enjoyed by the SEALs--as well as the advantage afforded by distance. Sixteen SEALs are capable of simultaneously firing hundreds of bullets per second at distances exeeding those of their opponents' weaponry. Beyond that, we need to take into consideration the limitations of terrain. In any situation involving firearms, constrictive terrain is always a greater disadvantage to those without such weapons. A drow without the magic necessary to offset this disadvantage would find itself pinned down and destroyed by gunfire. So, again, we need to determine what elements are engaged against one another. Situationally, the SEALs will in no case be blind in the Underdark; their infrared light-backed up optics will ensure this. you can even look at what they do in movies to get an idea . ... Or how about we don't? ;) Adamantine and other protective enchantments, not magic, would ensure that the bullets do not penetrate. Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. I saw the post later on that pointed to the comparative hardness in the SRD. The fact remains that D&D in no way points at any rule wherein bronze, stone, wooden, iron, steel, etc., weapons cannot affect an individual wearing adamantine armour. None. Realmsian fighters don't need to make called shots in order to bypass adamantine armour with their mundane swords; neither would a SEAL firing rounds capable of penetrating composite materials far more durable than any forged steel. Sure, DR would apply (unless higher-grade weaponry were used)... but not to the extent where an individual's life would not be in danger. So I guess the main thing to do now is to get away from conjecture and "what ifs" where the drow force is concerned. Let's think of some possible match-ups for fun's sake. Perhaps example (A) can be a SEAL squad or platoon (8 or 16 men) against a Menzoberranyr patrol; example (B) can be a similar SEAL element against a high-ranking House's patrol of elites; and example (C) could be a similar SEAL element against a famous high-level individual (think Gromph or Triel) and their typical entourage (if any).
Derren S. 01-06-08, 05:02 AM	Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. I saw the post later on that pointed to the comparative hardness in the SRD. The fact remains that D&D in no way points at any rule wherein bronze, stone, wooden, iron, steel, etc., weapons cannot affect an individual wearing adamantine armour. None. Realmsian fighters don't need to make called shots in order to bypass adamantine armour with their mundane swords; neither would a SEAL firing rounds capable of penetrating composite materials far more durable than any forged steel. No one said that the drow would be immune because of adamantine armor (they would be immune with the correct spells they probably don't have). But seals wouldn't do touch attacks against them. And because the drow have enchanted armor and possibly other protective gear the seals will have trouble hitting the drow as they only have a small masterwork bonus to attack and nothing else. And because of weapon and ability enchantments the drow would be able to do more damage than the seals with their modern weapons. And range is easily negated by invisibility. Sure, DR would apply (unless higher-grade weaponry were used)... but not to the extent where an individual's life would not be in danger. That is wrong. DR would always apply no matter how big the weapon is.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 06:23 AM	What book is that? The 16th post on the first page of this thread referenced Running the Realms booklet, specifically page 9 of that document. A very good point. The premise of this conflict needs to be qualified with certain basic elements if we're going to have a fair debate. Who, where, when, and, perhaps, why are very important questions to ask. The premise is already qualified with basic and specific parameters. I was referencing and asking how tech can overcome magic. We're talking about Navy SEALs, right? What does "SEALs" mean? Are we talking about a SEAL operator engaged in a one-on-one fight with a drow? How experienced is either individual? Are we talking about a SEAL that's just out of BUD/S and recently assigned to a unit, or a Senior Chief with 10+ years spent in a variety of theatres and operations? Is the drow elf a fighter? A mage? Both? Navy SEALs. SEALs is an acronym that stands for Sea, Air and Land. We are talking about one (or more) party of drow in conflict or in a battle scenario with one (or more) sweeper teams of SEALs. Char level of both opposing members is set at 20th level, it's on the first page of this thread; I suggest you actually go and peruse the entirety of this thread, a lot of us read through the entire thing. That is absolutely important. The drow party can be comprised of any char class. Or are we talking about groups? What kind of groups? A SEAL Team comprises three, forty man Task Units. Each Task Unit has two SEAL platoons, each with sixteen men. The two platoons correspond to eight four-man fire teams. SEALs assigned to a Task Unit might fall under the (I'm only listing those likely to be applicable) core skills of breaching, climbing, communications, corpsman (medic), driver, engineering, heavy weapons operator, point-man/navigator, sniper, etc. Already mentioned, group teams. And you lifted that straight out of wiki; the article would've already most of your questions. But, no, there wouldn't be that many SEALs in Faerun at the one time. Initially, we could involve one or two 4 or 6 man SEALs sweeper teams or two 4 drow parties. If more are needed, then more can be introduced. I wrote in my post on page 22 or somewhere on this thread that the SEALs had all specialists involved in their squad, ie this would involve demolitions, assault and recon, sniper squad, etc. Again, I suggest you read through the thread. What kind of equipment are we talking about? Much of it is classified, but we do know of the basics: an eight-man squad will have both light and heavy machineguns, at least one grenade launcher, and at least one sniper-specific rifle. Both night-vision (think D&D Low-Light vision) and thermal imagery (think Dark Vision) optics will be available. Weapon optics and pointers currently allow for both higher accuracy (red-dot scopes, infrared beams) and flexibility of use (scopes transmitting feed to a helmet-mounted HUD). Tactical radios mean instant communication. Grenades are one thing; flash-bang grenades would be the bane for any spellcaster; a drow even moreso. See below for body armour considerations. Your basic firearms and standard tech, but all are set to the most advanced and absolute best, ie it would involve shotguns, sub-machine or machine guns with attached grenade launchers, etc. All items were already stipulated in a previous post of mine. There are spells and magic items that confuse, frustrate or negate darkvision. There are spells and magic items that negate the effects of bullets and flashbangs. Well, again, we need concretely defined opposing groups. For example, if one were to use a drow patrol as defined by Menzoberranzan the boxed set... a SEAL platoon would wipe the floor clean with them in more situations than not. It would certainly not involve that patrol party statted in the Menzoberran box set. Consider the level involved in this scenario. Consider the relevancy. You are absolutely mistaken and obviously biased in your assessment of a certain SEALs victory. The opposing viewpoint favoring the drow has always argued from a position of neutrality and objectiveness. Unlike the debating side who favors the SEALs, who are almost always subjective and always biased. To begin with, we're talking about a massive firepower advantage enjoyed by the SEALs--as well as the advantage afforded by distance. Sixteen SEALs are capable of simultaneously firing hundreds of bullets per second at distances exeeding those of their opponents' weaponry. All this would be nullified. Those bullets would be stopped like a wall of lead stops radiation by the adamantine armor of the drow. Beyond that, we need to take into consideration the limitations of terrain. In any situation involving firearms, constrictive terrain is always a greater disadvantage to those without such weapons. A drow without the magic necessary to offset this disadvantage would find itself pinned down and destroyed by gunfire. So, again, we need to determine what elements are engaged against one another. Obviously, and something that I have consistently argued. Again, you are mistaken, the drow possess other means to harm the aggressor. The drow are also very experienced in battle tactics and the like. You are mistaken in your assumption that the drow would fold like paper. Situationally, the SEALs will in no case be blind in the Underdark; their infrared light-backed up optics will ensure this. Again, there are ways to confuse this type of tech. Or how about we don't? ;) That post had an emoticon. But, it was made to give an idea what they can do in such a situation. Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. I saw the post later on that pointed to the comparative hardness in the SRD. The fact remains that D&D in no way points at any rule wherein bronze, stone, wooden, iron, steel, etc., weapons cannot affect an individual wearing adamantine armour. None. Realmsian fighters don't need to make called shots in order to bypass adamantine armour with their mundane swords; neither would a SEAL firing rounds capable of penetrating composite materials far more durable than any forged steel. Sure, DR would apply (unless higher-grade weaponry were used)... but not to the extent where an individual's life would not be in danger. You underestimate adamantine or don't understand what it is. I suggest you look it and other relevant articles up in the SRD and educate yourself. So I guess the main thing to do now is to get away from conjecture and "what ifs" where the drow force is concerned. Let's think of some possible match-ups for fun's sake. Perhaps example (A) can be a SEAL squad or platoon (8 or 16 men) against a Menzoberranyr patrol; example (B) can be a similar SEAL element against a high-ranking House's patrol of elites; and example (C) could be a similar SEAL element against a famous high-level individual (think Gromph or Triel) and their typical entourage (if any). If you actually read what is written in previous posts, you'd know that the responses given and made already answer your questions. To reiterate, again. 1 or 2 SEALs sweeper teams comprised of 4 to 6 men, with the absolute best in equipment and tech, ie infrared tracking technology, thermal imagers, machine guns, etc. 1 or 2 drow patrol parties, adamantine arms and armor with protective enchantments. May be comprised primarily of fighters or a team that involves a variety of character classes. These last two are absolutely and vitally important. Set in Faerun and 20th level. No named individuals. Remember that you are in a fantasy campaign setting, hence D&D rules over real life.
Philalexandros 01-06-08, 11:07 AM	The 16th post on the first page of this thread referenced Running the Realms booklet, specifically page 9 of that document. Thanks. For whatever reason, I missed that the first time--I saw Stigger's initial post, which didn't cite it. The premise is already qualified with basic and specific parameters. I was referencing and asking how tech can overcome magic. The same way magic can overcome tech. I'm not sure why this has to be difficult; a non-magical M4 carbine or MP5 submachingun should be subject to the same constraints and limitations as any other non-magical weapon. If we're to put the physics limitations of FR in place, this entire debate is pointless. The tactics, training, and procedures that define a SEAL are centered around a range of equipment, without which they become something very different. We may as well call this debate "So how about those non-specialized hand-to-hand combatants vs Drow"... :D Navy SEALs. SEALs is an acronym that stands for Sea, Air and Land. I know this. :) I asked that question as a way to get people to understand this debate better. Certain individuals were talking about Javelin missiles, close air support aircraft, etc. That's not "SEALs"--that's a variety of equipment and platforms that are part of the greater US Department of Defense. Hence, my attempt at pining this debate down to concrete, debateable elements. We are talking about one (or more) party of drow in conflict or in a battle scenario with one (or more) sweeper teams of SEALs. SEAL sweeper team? What is a sweeper team? Again, I'm trying to pin down basic things. See below. :) Char level of both opposing members is set at 20th level, it's on the first page of this thread; I suggest you actually go and peruse the entirety of this thread, a lot of us read through the entire thing. That is absolutely important. See above. Level alone won't make this debate workable. The drow party can be comprised of any char class. I'm not sure that's concrete enough, though. If you don't identify specifics such as class, equipment, attributes... You're simply not going to arrive at a valid conclusion. We could be having this conversation ad nauseum over just a 20th level fighter versus a 20th level wizard. I could be arguing against your wizard with a Diviner in mind; you could be arguing against my fighter with a master of hand-crossbows in mind. ;) Already mentioned, group teams. A "group team" doesn't mean anything. And you lifted that straight out of wiki; ... Wikipedia's article was the fastest way to present easily understandable, non-classified information about Naval special operations forces. Are you trying to come off as smug? Please don't. I would much rather have a nice conversation. :) But, no, there wouldn't be that many SEALs in Faerun at the one time. Initially, we could involve one or two 4 or 6 man SEALs sweeper teams or two 4 drow parties. If more are needed, then more can be introduced. So, to make things simpler, either an 8 man squad or a 16-man platoon, right? There's no point in coming up with things that depart from SEAL TTP. There are reasons why they deploy in certain-sized elements; equipment and the tactics they determine are two of those. Again, I suggest you read through the thread. I read through a good part of it. At some point, one has to determine whether he is willing to make an investment. Posts (not yours) that argue the improbable, unlikely, and inaccurate make it less worthwhile to make that investment. There are spells and magic items that confuse, frustrate or negate darkvision. There are spells and magic items that negate the effects of bullets and flashbangs. Obviously, which brings us to the other side of my questions (re: the Drow). You are absolutely mistaken and obviously biased in your assessment of a certain SEALs victory. You do see the irony of you being absolutely sure regarding how wrong my absoluteness is, right? The opposing viewpoint favoring the drow has always argued from a position of neutrality and objectiveness. Unlike the debating side who favors the SEALs, who are almost always subjective and always biased. Hmmm. No. Although we have established that we are no longer using the parties in quesiton (from Menzo), I invite you to look back at the composition of one such patrol, take into consideration their equipment, classes, levels, and abilities, and compare them to 16 SEALs equipped as they would be. I have no particular penchant for SEALs, so please don't accuse me of bias. I'm using the extant Realms record to arrive to a plausible conclusion. All this would be nullified. Those bullets would be stopped like a wall of lead stops radiation by the adamantine armor of the drow. I'm assuming you're arguing on the lines of Realmsian physics. Otherwise, you are mistaken. If steel weapons can and do injure individuals wearing Adamantine armour, I assure you that weapons that defeat steel can and would injure individuals wearing Adamantine armour. The drow are also very experienced in battle tactics and the like. That's a rather vague statement; what kind of tactics would you say drow are trained in? You are mistaken in your assumption that the drow would fold like paper. No, I stated that a SEAL platoon would wipe the floor clean with a Menzoberranyr patrol as statted in the boxed set. I by no means stated that drow, in general, would fold like paper. But, it was made to give an idea what they can do in such a situation. No, movies don't do that. Movies, more often than not, tend to give a very poor impression of what most modern military formations do. You underestimate adamantine or don't understand what it is. I suggest you look it and other relevant articles up in the SRD and educate yourself. I'm aware of what adamantine can and does do. I'm also kind of getting annoyed by your assumption that those who don't agree with your points must somehow suffer from ignorance or arrogance. Damage reduction is not an end-all, be-all. Damage reduction means you still likely take damage. In the case of the weapons in question, the damage dealt by them more than compensates for the DR. I am indeed operating with D&D rules in mind. I insist that you need to qualify the basic elements of this fight even further than they have been already. Until you do so, you are basic your conclusions on assumptions. Cheers, P.
Philalexandros 01-06-08, 11:10 AM	No one said that the drow would be immune because of adamantine armor (they would be immune with the correct spells they probably don't have). Touche. :) That is wrong. DR would always apply no matter how big the weapon is. It was not my intent to imply that. I meant that, the higher the weapon damage, the less the worth of the DR. :)
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 11:29 AM	And you haven't even countered my point of the stronger drow in the party having the strength to don heavy armor. -Never once did I say that the stronger Drow in the party (ie, Fighters/Warriors) lack the strength to wear Heavy Armor. I hardly find them to be sufficient reason to arbitrarily deny heavy armor to the drow. You're arguing the same point over and over and over again even when I poked holes through it. -Holes? What holes? All you have provided is baseless assumptions based on what you want to believe. At least I offer assumptions based directly on and extrapolating from canonical data sources. Obviously, but the other supplements can be shortened to Underdark. -Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark is shortened as DDGttU, The Drow of the Underdark is shortened as 2e DotU, Drow of the Underdark is shortened as 3e DotU, and Underdark is shortened as Und. Now you know. Not for clerics, not for fighters, not for warriors. For wizards, yes, and something I already mentioned. For rogues, yes. -For any of them to be wearing Heavy Armor is unrealistic, again, based on the natural perils and dangers of the Underdark- jumping, climbing, swimming, hiding, sneaking, etc. No, but the point of those statistics is to present only an example of a drow party. Obviously not all drow parties are going to composed like that. -Why? What evidence do we have to say that other Drow Patrol/Scout parties act differently. And again, realise the drow we are talking about are 20th level. So your example falls flat and is irrelevant. -No, we are talking about a Drow Scouting party, which consists of 1d3+2 1st level Warriors, and 1 NPC (1d3+1 Level) leader, which can be a Cleric, Fighter, Rogue or Wizard, or a Drow Patrol party, which consists of 1d3+2 Fighters (Level 1d3+2), 1 NPC Cleric (1d3+5 Level), and 1 NPC Wizard (1d4+4). Wow, just a couple of posts above, you quite clearly labeled him as snarky. Deny much? -I am not mislabeling him. Pay attention.
Derren S. 01-06-08, 11:32 AM	Karsus, with every post you change the parameters of the discussion. First it are level 20 fighter drow, then it are wizard drow and for a short while you are not talking about drow at all before going back to level 20 fighter drow and now it is a low level scouting party. Instead of always changing the subject when you realize that you are wrong I suggest that instead you admit that or if you are too proud for that stop posting. But stop trying to confuse the others with always changing parameters.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 01:44 PM	-If you are going to compare and contrast different things, then the parameters of the discussion must change. Discussing the "stopping power" of Adamantine armor, for example, has nothing to do with Drow, SEALs, and so on. Discussing every single variable, as we are doing- including Wizards in a party, not including Wizards in a party, including magical enchantments, not including magical enchantments, and so on and so forth demands the parameters of the discussion change.
Derren S. 01-06-08, 01:48 PM	-If you are going to compare and contrast different things, then the parameters of the discussion must change. Discussing the "stopping power" of Adamantine armor, for example, has nothing to do with Drow, SEALs, and so on. Discussing every single variable, as we are doing- including Wizards in a party, not including Wizards in a party, including magical enchantments, not including magical enchantments, and so on and so forth demands the parameters of the discussion change. Except that you are changing them without notice and without the previous discussion being resolved.
Stigger 01-06-08, 02:20 PM	Javelins should be in a SEAL inventory... or maybe I'm confusing them with something else, either that or they changed a designator while I wasn't looking. Predators were the little guys, while the Javelins were their larger cousings, right? I can't quite fathom why they wouldn't have them if they have on occassion issued them things like Stingers for ADA stuff. Certainly not standard issue, but quite possible if they're the dual-role shoulder-launched ones I'm thinking of. As to the CAS stuff, that was more the idea of equalling out the odds a spellcaster would present as a support unit. Which I might point out wasn't actually my idea, that was Ody's concept for evening the odds up against a high-level spellcaster. I happen to agree that if you're going to hand the Drow a 20th level caster, then in the interests of 'fairness' CAS/Artillery/Heavy Weapons should be present to even up the firepower discrpency that would pop up from it. It wasn't intended to suggest that they were part of the 'SEALs' in the first place, on either of our parts I think. So :P @ Phil. :D Though on a seperate note, in regards to armor piercing, more of it depends on the angle the armor is hit at rather than some arbitrary number... unfortunately D20/D&D rules just don't quite capture the idea of just how modern weaponry works. Power's going a bit wonky again... but at least the PSU works right. Blasted Storms. :(
Warning 01-06-08, 03:52 PM	I can't figure out if Stigger is trying to look at both sides of the argument. But you do seem less bias than Derren S. and Shadow. I could say the drow are tied up without any magic or weapons and they would reply that the Drow would explode in a fury of fire and escape....escape? I meant, stand over the dead Seal body and laugh spitting on their corpse. "Drow armor is stronger than a tank...durrrr!". Yes because we have stats for a actually modern tank in DnD and it was compared in one of RAS novels....great job dude. Than again, I could be said the same for the biasness for Seals, but I know I'm right. I know all. Warning doesn't play god. Playing is for children.
Derren S. 01-06-08, 04:27 PM	I can't figure out if Stigger is trying to look at both sides of the argument. But you do seem less bias than Derren S. and Shadow. I could say the drow are tied up without any magic or weapons and they would reply that the Drow would explode in a fury of fire and escape....escape? I meant, stand over the dead Seal body and laugh spitting on their corpse. "Drow armor is stronger than a tank...durrrr!". Yes because we have stats for a actually modern tank in DnD and it was compared in one of RAS novels....great job dude. Than again, I could be said the same for the biasness for Seals, but I know I'm right. I know all. Warning doesn't play god. Playing is for children. Warning, don't make things up. Without magic the drows would loose but as level 20 drows have a lot of magic this is not the case. And enchanted adamantine armor is technically harder than a tank. A M1A2 (2nd best tank in the world) has a hardness of 20, the same hardness as adamantine armor. And when you enchant armor its hardness increases. So for every plus the armor has 2 more hardness than the tank. Another fun fact, with a +5 enchantment the armor itself would also have more HP than the tank. If someone here is biased than it is you as you refuse to compare the stats and instead continue your "seals are awesome" mantra and discredit everyone who thinks different with made up stories. If you really think that the seals would be stronger then explain it with the D20 modern and D&D stats. Javelins should be in a SEAL inventory... or maybe I'm confusing them with something else, either that or they changed a designator while I wasn't looking. Predators were the little guys, while the Javelins were their larger cousings, right? I can't quite fathom why they wouldn't have them if they have on occassion issued them things like Stingers for ADA stuff. Certainly not standard issue, but quite possible if they're the dual-role shoulder-launched ones I'm thinking of. Aren't those all guided anti tank weapons? Pretty useless for infantry combat if you ask me. D20 Modern has stats for LAWs (10d6 Ref DC 15 halves). That should be enough. Has the USA army a weapon similar to RPGs?
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-06-08, 04:33 PM	Warning, don't make things up. Without magic the drows would loose but as level 20 drows o have a lot of magic this is not the case. And enchanted adamantine armor is technically harder than a tank. A M1A2 (2nd best tank in the world) has a hardness of 20, the same hardness as adamantine armor. And when you enchant armor its hardness increases. So for every plus the armor has 2 more hardness than the tank. Another fun fact, with a +5 enchantment the armor itself would also have more HP than the tank. If someone here is biased than it is you as you refuse to compare the stats and instead continue your "seals are awesome" mantra and discredit everyone who things different with made up stories. If you really think that the seals would be stronger then explain it with the D20 modern and D&D stats. Glad to know we agree on something Derren...
Warning 01-06-08, 04:57 PM	If you really think that the seals would be stronger then explain it with the D20 modern and D&D stats. RAS has already explained in the renewed version of the Drizzt novels that stats don't work well with an actual battle situation. So that comming from an FR author, I'd take his theory over yours. But thanks for the suggestion. ;)
Derren S. 01-06-08, 05:06 PM	In a novel situation the hero of the story always wins no matter the odds. So the novel perspective is the absolutely the worst thing to evaluate the strength of a character or a group. You have to look at the stats and there the drow win.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-06-08, 05:06 PM	Derren isn't Theoryising nothing, he's using he rules of d20 and even though I don't agree with him on the end result of the battle he's at least going with the rules of the system involved in the debate. RAS Is what you said, an AUTHOR (and a Overrated one IMO) not a DESINGNER.
Warning 01-06-08, 05:09 PM	You have to look at the stats and there the drow win. You have to let a Drow look down the barrel of D. Eagle, and there the Seals win.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-06-08, 05:12 PM	SEALs Don't use that Weapon....
Red_Wizard 01-06-08, 08:00 PM	No, it's definitely not as simple as that. There's adamantine and protective enchantments, etc. There's other factors. Yours is the simple-minded approach and a situation that ignores or underestimates the benefits of magic or magic items. I don't honestly think that the Seals could beat the Drow. Magic will trump tech as I said, the only instance where this is would prove different is the one I suggested in which the drow blindly and aimlessly run at the SEAL's as they fire upon them. I was NOT suggesting they were doing so in magic armor, nor that they were in any way buffed. It was a facetious comment based on some of the remarks I have read here. The only way for the tech to trump the magic, is for the magic wielders to forgo any advantage and opt to charge to their death. Lastly, as we do not have adamantine armor, nor spells to test your theory of what would and wouldn't stop a bullet, I put forth the obvious point that the drow would NEVER fight fairly. They would attack using the advantage of magic, and through it would win fairly quickly. Maybe next time before you call the view simplistic, you will step back and realise it is a realistic response, and one that would have saved many people 26 pages of IMO pointless back and forth debate. :rolleyes: -RW
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 09:37 PM	Thanks. For whatever reason, I missed that the first time--I saw Stigger's initial post, which didn't cite it. No worries. Wasn't referring to Stigger's initial post, but subsequent responses/replies. The same way magic can overcome tech. I'm not sure why this has to be difficult; a non-magical M4 carbine or MP5 submachingun should be subject to the same constraints and limitations as any other non-magical weapon. If we're to put the physics limitations of FR in place, this entire debate is pointless. The tactics, training, and procedures that define a SEAL are centered around a range of equipment, without which they become something very different. We may as well call this debate "So how about those non-specialized hand-to-hand combatants vs Drow"... :D You misunderstand the reasons why tech was originally barred from functioning and the subsequent change (by me of all people) to have it functioning again. Tech didn't function because of the say-so of one debating team, rather it was expressed quite clearly in the rules governing running campaigns in the Realms. This wasn't exactly fair to begin with, so I changed it to have the SEALs' tech and equipment working again, like it does in our world. I know this. :) It was for the benefit of all. I asked that question as a way to get people to understand this debate better. Certain individuals were talking about Javelin missiles, close air support aircraft, etc. That's not "SEALs"--that's a variety of equipment and platforms that are part of the greater US Department of Defense. Hence, my attempt at pining this debate down to concrete, debateable elements. I tried to do this too, I explained the reasons why the SEALs wouldn't have and wouldn't be inclined to utilise fighter jets and the like, as it detracts from the role of SEALs and what the SEALs represent. This was ignored and subsequent posts argued in favor of correcting a supposed imbalance. SEAL sweeper team? What is a sweeper team? Again, I'm trying to pin down basic things. See below. :) Your 4-man squad comprised of specialists. See above. Level alone won't make this debate workable. In this case it does. The obvious reason is because it's set in a D&D setting using D&D rules. I'm not sure that's concrete enough, though. If you don't identify specifics such as class, equipment, attributes... You're simply not going to arrive at a valid conclusion. We could be having this conversation ad nauseum over just a 20th level fighter versus a 20th level wizard. I could be arguing against your wizard with a Diviner in mind; you could be arguing against my fighter with a master of hand-crossbows in mind. ;) You can. As I did before in previous posts, I and others have attempted to break it down into those variables. However, again, this was ignored in favor of bias. Diviners have pretty good spells up their sleeves, which would counteract many of the advantages of a SEAL. With the master of hand-crossbow, it's similar, but involving different means and different ends. All of those hand-crossbow bolts could be poisoned for example, and we all know how potent drow poison is. A "group team" doesn't mean anything. ... You can't honestly be arguing that... By definition of a group team, we already know it does not involve a single individual, but a group of humanoids. Wikipedia's article was the fastest way to present easily understandable, non-classified information about Naval special operations forces. Are you trying to come off as smug? Please don't. I would much rather have a nice conversation. :) Since you never explained what your intent was with your previous questions, ie were you trying to post for the benefit of the group or the benefit of yourself, I suggested that you use wiki. If you posted for the benefit of the group, they could have also easily accessed wiki. It didn't come off as smug, merely suggested that people could look up that resource. Please don't assume. So, to make things simpler, either an 8 man squad or a 16-man platoon, right? There's no point in coming up with things that depart from SEAL TTP. There are reasons why they deploy in certain-sized elements; equipment and the tactics they determine are two of those. Either or is fine. There are also a reason why they don't deploy in 40 4-man teams all at once. I read through a good part of it. At some point, one has to determine whether he is willing to make an investment. Posts (not yours) that argue the improbable, unlikely, and inaccurate make it less worthwhile to make that investment. Yes, I agree with your latter. However, reading it through always gives one an understanding of the other side's position. Obviously, which brings us to the other side of my questions (re: the Drow). Yes. And something which I argued for, but wasn't heeded to because people still favored the SEALs regardless of our arguments and regardless of our reasoning. You do see the irony of you being absolutely sure regarding how wrong my absoluteness is, right? From what you have argued constituting an absolute SEALs victory, I am absolutely sure that you are wrong in your assessment. Hmmm. No. Although we have established that we are no longer using the parties in quesiton (from Menzo), I invite you to look back at the composition of one such patrol, take into consideration their equipment, classes, levels, and abilities, and compare them to 16 SEALs equipped as they would be. No, the composition of that drow patrol is irrelevant to the context at hand. That drow party had the levels set at 1d3+2 (fighter), 1d3+5 (cleric) and 1d4+4 (wizard). This isn't relevant at all since it was quite clearly stipulated in the OP that the scenario involved 20th level chars, which I and others have stated over and over and over again, it becomes tiresome and frustrating. It already is like banging our heads against a brick wall. Does anyone pay attention? I have no particular penchant for SEALs, so please don't accuse me of bias. I'm using the extant Realms record to arrive to a plausible conclusion. You can use Realms material to arrive at a conclusion, but you also need to pay attention to the relevancy of whether it fits within the framework of things. That drow patrol is irrelevant, hence you can't use it to posit a tactical response. And you seem to have a very personal take of what you mean by bias or haven't read what you yourself wrote. Your posts have argued in favor of a SEALs absolute certainty of a victory, while arguing that drow would fold like paper; 'destroyed by gunfire.' I'm assuming you're arguing on the lines of Realmsian physics. Otherwise, you are mistaken. If steel weapons can and do injure individuals wearing Adamantine armour, I assure you that weapons that defeat steel can and would injure individuals wearing Adamantine armour. No, you're the one who is mistaken, and please don't go jumping to incorrect conclusions. I have always argued in favor of the tech and equipment of the SEALs working fine on Toril. If you actually did read my posts (I stated my position many times already), you'd realise that the content of subsequent posts after the OP stated that the physics of Faerun works differently to that of Earth, meaning that the tech of the SEALs wouldn't have worked at all. Did you read what the mechanics say involving adamantine? Do you understand what DR is? I and others have already given reasons why adamantine would fortify and protect the drow to nullify bullets and the like. And you're wrong in your assumptions. Any individuals wielding enchanted arms can cut through adamantine. It confers DR X/- for a reason. That's a rather vague statement; what kind of tactics would you say drow are trained in? I and others have already given tactics and strategic responses. The onus falls on the side in support of the SEALs to provide an equivalent response. No, I stated that a SEAL platoon would wipe the floor clean with a Menzoberranyr patrol as statted in the boxed set. I by no means stated that drow, in general, would fold like paper. But a scenario involving SEALs versus the drow in that supplement is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. 20th level and all that. You did say that the SEALs enjoy massive firepower, and that sixteen SEALs are capable of simultaneously firing hundreds of bullets per second at distances exeeding those of their opponents' weaponry. You assumed that the drow would not have the magic to offset that advantage, they would, they would still have magic items. This would seem indicative of the drow folding like paper. No, movies don't do that. Movies, more often than not, tend to give a very poor impression of what most modern military formations do. Movies still do give an impression of what is possible in real life, even if they do exaggerate. And movie spec ops do tend to follow the basic maneuvers of the real life spec ops. That was the point of the post, to give an idea and impression of the sorts of capabilities of the SEALs. I'm aware of what adamantine can and does do. I'm also kind of getting annoyed by your assumption that those who don't agree with your points must somehow suffer from ignorance or arrogance. Damage reduction is not an end-all, be-all. Damage reduction means you still likely take damage. In the case of the weapons in question, the damage dealt by them more than compensates for the DR. It doesn't seem like it to me. If you did actually know what adamatine does then you wouldn't have said that those who wield steel weapons can cut through adamantine. This is ignorance. I wasn't been arrogant, I just wanted you to read for yourself re adamantine and other relevant articles. Don't assume. You are confused about 'normal' damage reduction and damage reduction/-. DR X/- means it ignores the damage of all weapons, "When a damage reduction entry has a dash (-) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction." Hence the -, if it negated a certain amount, then it would have provided another variable, ie magic, or good or silver, etc. As you say that you are aware of what adamatine is and what it can do combined with your It was not my intent to imply that. I meant that, the higher the weapon damage, the less the worth of the DR. :) , I can only assume this is ignorance on your part. I am indeed operating with D&D rules in mind. I insist that you need to qualify the basic elements of this fight even further than they have been already. Until you do so, you are basic your conclusions on assumptions. Were you really though? It didn't seem like it. Since you mistakenly assumed that adamantine would be cut by ordinary steel weapons, etc. And we, the side in support of the drow, actually had the D&D rules in mind. What the opposing side has done is introduce realistic and real world variables into the context. However, consider where the conflict is taking place, etc. Cheers, P. Cheers to you too. Thanks for participating in this discussion.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 10:00 PM	-Never once did I say that the stronger Drow in the party (ie, Fighters/Warriors) lack the strength to wear Heavy Armor. Yet you always sidestepped the issue. -Holes? What holes? All you have provided is baseless assumptions based on what you want to believe. At least I offer assumptions based directly on and extrapolating from canonical data sources. Not unlike your arbitrary denial of heavy armor to the drow because it supposedly makes them less stealthy and/or interferes with their spellcasting capacity. You have not provided extrapolations from canonical data sources at all, but what you have done is to provide baseless assumptions derived from incorrect conclusions. I and others have already given the reasons why arbitrarily denying the drow heavy armor is a bad idea and you have ignored those reasons, instead believing what you want to believe. Let me reiterate. Not all drow patrols will be inclined to stealth. Just arbitrarily them heavy armor is unrealistic, especially if the fighters of the group don't mind if they make too much noise. Adamantine heavy armor lessens the armor check penalty by 1. -Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark is shortened as DDGttU, The Drow of the Underdark is shortened as 2e DotU, Drow of the Underdark is shortened as 3e DotU, and Underdark is shortened as Und. Now you know. All of those can be shortened to just Underdark. And I did say that it was Underdark that you were referring to. -For any of them to be wearing Heavy Armor is unrealistic, again, based on the natural perils and dangers of the Underdark- jumping, climbing, swimming, hiding, sneaking, etc. ... Unrealistic how? Full plate only provides a max Dex bonus of 1 and gives an armor check penalty of -6. But this wouldn't matter too much, especially if that drow favors strength. And you are assuming that the drow patrol would be jumping, climbing, swimming, hiding or sneaking, etc. However, what you can't do is arbitrarily deny heavy armor to the drow just because of some perceived reason. -Why? What evidence do we have to say that other Drow Patrol/Scout parties act differently. Because it quite clearly states that it is to be used as an example only. -No, we are talking about a Drow Scouting party, which consists of 1d3+2 1st level Warriors, and 1 NPC (1d3+1 Level) leader, which can be a Cleric, Fighter, Rogue or Wizard, or a Drow Patrol party, which consists of 1d3+2 Fighters (Level 1d3+2), 1 NPC Cleric (1d3+5 Level), and 1 NPC Wizard (1d4+4). Why is this relevant though? Where did you miss 20th level? :confused: You can't just go arbitrarily changing the stipulations of the OP when it suits you for no reason at all, especially when we've (most of us) been arguing from the perspective of exactly those stipulations. -I am not mislabeling him. Pay attention. No, you're wrong. -No, he was being 'snarky', and I responded in turn. Should it be you who needs to pay attention or I?
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 10:18 PM	Instead of always changing the subject when you realize that you are wrong I suggest that instead you admit that or if you are too proud for that stop posting. But stop trying to confuse the others with always changing parameters. I agree with this. Please abide by one set of stipulations, in this case, what is written by the OP. And please don't arbitrarily change it to favor one or the other side. Also, just ignore Warning, he doesn't post any relevant responses. -If you are going to compare and contrast different things, then the parameters of the discussion must change. Discussing the "stopping power" of Adamantine armor, for example, has nothing to do with Drow, SEALs, and so on. Discussing every single variable, as we are doing- including Wizards in a party, not including Wizards in a party, including magical enchantments, not including magical enchantments, and so on and so forth demands the parameters of the discussion change. Step back from your narrowly focused vision and consider why it was said in the first place. Actually pay attention to the thread. I and others have already posted this... The drow and SEALs are 20th level. The drow have access to wealth equivalent to their level, either PC or NPC wealth. Adamantine is appropriate to their wealth and level, and something that the drow would have access to. The benefits of adamantine are manifold. Namely, in this scenario, it's going to stop bullets, etc. Coupled with enchantments, again, appropriate for the level of the drow, this is going to make it that much more harder to penetrate and hit (AC). I don't honestly think that the Seals could beat the Drow. Magic will trump tech as I said, the only instance where this is would prove different is the one I suggested in which the drow blindly and aimlessly run at the SEAL's as they fire upon them. I agree with your assessment that the SEALs could not beat the drow. Please consider the relevancy of your statement, the intelligence of the drow (+2 to Int), etc. Why would the drow blindly and aimlessly run at the SEALs as they fire upon them? It absolutely makes no sense and is totally illogical. I was NOT suggesting they were doing so in magic armor, nor that they were in any way buffed. It was a facetious comment based on some of the remarks I have read here. The only way for the tech to trump the magic, is for the magic wielders to forgo any advantage and opt to charge to their death. Again, why would sapient intelligent humanoids forego tactics and just blindly charge the opposition? Especially if that way means their death? :/ :confused: Lastly, as we do not have adamantine armor, nor spells to test your theory of what would and wouldn't stop a bullet, I put forth the obvious point that the drow would NEVER fight fairly. They would attack using the advantage of magic, and through it would win fairly quickly. No, but we have D&D rules, and I have always advocated people actually read them to understand what they and we are talking about. Maybe next time before you call the view simplistic, you will step back and realise it is a realistic response, and one that would have saved many people 26 pages of IMO pointless back and forth debate. :rolleyes: Perhaps you should consider your posts and the points I and others have made before you jump to conclusions? Also, consider that the setting is Faerun, hence you would did to think it through in terms of D&D rules.
Philalexandros 01-07-08, 01:05 AM	Javelins should be in a SEAL inventory... or maybe I'm confusing them with something else, either that or they changed a designator while I wasn't looking. Predators were the little guys, while the Javelins were their larger cousings, right? The Predator is an unmanned aerial vehicle. The latter can be equipped with missiles and even GPS-guided bombs, but it is a remote-controlled platform that is not part of SEAL inventory. I can't quite fathom why they wouldn't have them if they have on occassion issued them things like Stingers for ADA stuff. Certainly not standard issue, but quite possible if they're the dual-role shoulder-launched ones I'm thinking of. The Javelin is a 25+lb missile system that, weight aside, does not lend to mobility when being carried. Ditto for the Stinger. It's all mission-dependent, really. Would a SEAL platoon be carrying one on every push? No. As to the CAS stuff, that was more the idea of equalling out the odds a spellcaster would present as a support unit. Fair enough, but it's not part of a SEAL team... so I'm not sure that it's very helpful. If anything, it opens the debate to even more parameters and questions. :) Though on a seperate note, in regards to armor piercing, more of it depends on the angle the armor is hit at rather than some arbitrary number... unfortunately D20/D&D rules just don't quite capture the idea of just how modern weaponry works. To be sure. :) Unfortunately, d20 rules are what we have to go by.
Lord Karsus 01-07-08, 01:31 AM	Yet you always sidestepped the issue. -That any specific Drow has or doesn't have the physical strength to wear Heavy Armor never was the issue. Not unlike your arbitrary denial of heavy armor to the drow because it supposedly makes them less stealthy and/or interferes with their spellcasting capacity. -Supposedly nothing. Heavy Armors come with a -6/-7 armor check penalty, and a high Arcane Failure rate, for Mages. You have not provided extrapolations from canonical data sources at all, but what you have done is to provide baseless assumptions derived from incorrect conclusions. -Funny. Where am I getting my factual information, then? I and others have already given the reasons why arbitrarily denying the drow heavy armor is a bad idea and you have ignored those reasons, instead believing what you want to believe. -And you have ignored the reasons why arbitrarily giving the Drow Heavy Armor is a bad and illogical idea, so we are at an inpasse. ... Unrealistic how? Full plate only provides a max Dex bonus of 1 and gives an armor check penalty of -6. But this wouldn't matter too much, especially if that drow favors strength. And you are assuming that the drow patrol would be jumping, climbing, swimming, hiding or sneaking, etc. -Just what do you do in the Underdark, then? However, what you can't do is arbitrarily deny heavy armor to the drow just because of some perceived reason. -Arbitrary nothing. The only canon source on the topic at hand backs what I say, as it says the average warrior/fighter in a Drow patrol wears chain mail, meaning they are not wearing Heavy Armor. You can't just go arbitrarily changing the stipulations of the OP when it suits you for no reason at all, especially when we've (most of us) been arguing from the perspective of exactly those stipulations. -The stipulations of the encounter have changed tenfold since the thread was started. When we began talking/mentioning Drow Patrols, I provided the canon data of what a Drow Patrol is composed of. When we began talking about the stopping power of Adamantine armor, I erased Drow and SEALs from the situation, as they are not relevant in such a discussion. When we began talking about Red Wizards, I erased Drow from the situation, as they are not relevant in such a discussion. No, you're wrong. -No, you are wrong, and I tire of arguing how my own perceptions of something can be incorrect.
Philalexandros 01-07-08, 02:04 AM	You misunderstand the reasons why tech was originally barred from functioning and the subsequent change (by me of all people) to have it functioning again. I'm not sure there was any confusion. I was just making a statement. :) I tried to do this too, I explained the reasons why the SEALs wouldn't have and wouldn't be inclined to utilise fighter jets and the like, as it detracts from the role of SEALs and what the SEALs represent. This was ignored and subsequent posts argued in favor of correcting a supposed imbalance. I would recommend you stick to your guns, as you are correct in this situation. A SEAL element, regardless of size, brings certain things to a fight. Beyond those, we're talking about a military force that exceeds the parameters of the debate. Your 4-man squad comprised of specialists. I'm not sure that this is very realistic, though. SEALs operate in certain ways... independent 4-man teams don't really lend themselves to what they do well. I've seen half-squad elements operate before... but almost always in conjunction with other forces. In this case it does. The obvious reason is because it's set in a D&D setting using D&D rules. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. There are enough feats, items, spells, and differentials between attributes to argue between just two individuals of two different classes--let alone a battle between 16-32 individuals of that high a level. You can't honestly be arguing that... By definition of a group team, we already know it does not involve a single individual, but a group of humanoids. I think you took me too literally; I meant that it's better to stick to the established SEAL TTP for nomenclature and such--to make things more transparent for everyone participating. Since you never explained what your intent was with your previous questions, ie were you trying to post for the benefit of the group or the benefit of yourself, I suggested that you use wiki. This is what I was referring to: "And you lifted that straight out of wiki..." There was no offer to look anything up; seemed like an accusation to me. As for my intent, I think it's been fairly clear from the get-go. :) It didn't come off as smug, ... That's an opinion; much like mine. ... merely suggested that people could look up that resource. Please don't assume. I did no such thing. I asked you directly if that was your intent. Beyond that, I continued my post in civil tone, with the assumption that the above was not the case. From what you have argued constituting an absolute SEALs victory, I am absolutely sure that you are wrong in your assessment. That's the second time you've made more or less the same statement. The irony is still there. No, the composition of that drow patrol is irrelevant to the context at hand. Admittedly, it was relevant only to the sidebar discussion we were having. ... it was quite clearly stipulated in the OP that the scenario involved 20th level chars, which I and others have stated over and over and over again, it becomes tiresome and frustrating. It already is like banging our heads against a brick wall. Does anyone pay attention? I'm merely pointing out that it is a somewhat unrealistic example lacking necessary detail. I admit that it would be a rather heinous proposition to stat out a minimum of 16 nerfed characters for the purposes of accurately simulating within d20 parameters what would happen. At the same time, I am trying to point out that, unless one does this, all that will occur in this thread is a constant melee of "I'm right!"/"No, I'm right!" And, in many cases, such statements will based only on conjecture and opinion. Your posts have argued in favor of a SEALs absolute certainty of a victory, while arguing that drow would fold like paper; 'destroyed by gunfire.' No, that is incorrect. My posts have included the proposal that a 16-man SEAL platoon would defeat the stated Menzoberranyr patrol. Beyond that, my posts have consistently asked for greater detail and for a variety of comparisons. I think (I could be wrong) that you have been frustrated enough by your opposition in this thread that you'd rather peg me into a stereotype. Please don't. :) Did you read what the mechanics say involving adamantine? Yes... Do you understand what DR is? Yes... I and others have already given reasons why adamantine would fortify and protect the drow to nullify bullets and the like. I am curious about this. It's quite clearly spelled out how damage resistance works. Given that the d20 M16s and such inflict 2d8 points of damage, it's higly unlikely that the average attack will somehow be "nullified" (given average damage rolls of 8-10 points of damage befor DR is applied). And you're wrong in your assumptions. Any individuals wielding enchanted arms can cut through adamantine. It confers DR X/- for a reason. I didn't say they couldn't! :) I stated that ANY individual wielding a mundane weapon could potentially harm a drow wearing adamantine armour. To whit, an individual with a longsword (1d8 damage) that strikes a drow wearing adamantine plate for 8 damage would in fact inflict 5 points of damage on said drow. Is this correct, or not. I didn't answer the paragraph previous to the one above because it seems we are constantly going in circles on that topic. I'm afraid you automatically assume I'm trying to say or argue something that I'm not. I and others have already given tactics and strategic responses. The onus falls on the side in support of the SEALs to provide an equivalent response. Thus far, you've given me a number of individuals and an indeterminate break-down of what classes they follow. Given this, no: I don't believe that we have concretely identified what tactics the drow would be trained in. Or, in other words: 16 SEALs that are part of the same platoon train together exclusively to work as a team. 16 drow may very well have done the same, but unless we pin down what classes they belong to, we can't possibly know what their tactics would be. You did say that the SEALs enjoy massive firepower, and that sixteen SEALs are capable of simultaneously firing hundreds of bullets per second at distances exeeding those of their opponents' weaponry. You assumed that the drow would not have the magic to offset that advantage, they would, they would still have magic items. This would seem indicative of the drow folding like paper. Once more: that example was contigent on using the Menzoberranyr patrol as an example. I understant we're not using that example. Having said that, I stated that the magic, items, etc., fielded by that group, as statted, would not have overcome the firepower of the 16-man SEAL platoon. Movies still do give an impression of what is possible in real life, even if they do exaggerate. And movie spec ops do tend to follow the basic maneuvers of the real life spec ops. That was the point of the post, to give an idea and impression of the sorts of capabilities of the SEALs. I'm sorry friend, but this is a misconception. Movies rely on technical advisors to present a visually pleasing version of how SoF operate. If you base your theories on what movies are offering, you're beginning with incorrect premises. It doesn't seem like it to me. If you did actually know what adamatine does then you wouldn't have said that those who wield steel weapons can cut through adamantine. See the above example. What happens when an individual with a steel longsword successfully strikes a drow wearing heavy adamantine armour for 4+ points of damage? Answer: the drow takes 1+ point of damage (depending on damage roll, of course). This is ignorance. No, it wasn't. I wasn't been arrogant, I just wanted you to read for yourself re adamantine and other relevant articles. Don't assume. It's looking like it's the other way around at this point... You are confused about 'normal' damage reduction and damage reduction/-. No, I'm afraid you were confused about what I was saying. See all above examples. I can only assume this is ignorance on your part. No, that's just mathematics. If I am capable of only doing 1-8 points of damage, DR 3/- is worth quite a bit. If I am capable of doing 2-16 points of damage, DR 3/- is worth quite less. In the case of the former, 50% of the time you could negate all but 1 from the damage inflicted. In this case of the latter? Significantly less. Were you really though? As it turns out, yes. Yes I was. Cheers, P.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-07-08, 03:29 AM	-That any specific Drow has or doesn't have the physical strength to wear Heavy Armor never was the issue. Yet your perceptions deemed it was an issue. If it weren't an issue in the first place, you would have responded to the pertinent point, but you didn't -Supposedly nothing. Heavy Armors come with a -6/-7 armor check penalty, and a high Arcane Failure rate, for Mages. Are they your only arguments? I've already stated why an argument for denying a mage heavy armor is irrelevant, since they wouldn't wear it in the first place. A mage, however, would wear robes or similar. I never said anything about a drow mage wearing heavy armor. Strength is required for anyone to wear heavy. Since a char in D&D cannot have good stats in all ability, it is logical that there would be dump stats involved. Hence, the drow who wear heavy armor wouldn't mind a hit to dex or armor check penalty. -Funny. Where am I getting my factual information, then? You arrived at an incorrect conclusion from your factual data. What you have done is not extrapolate from canonical resources, but post verbatim what it says in said supplement. The factual data you posted is irrelevant in the context of drow versus SEALs. -And you have ignored the reasons why arbitrarily giving the Drow Heavy Armor is a bad and illogical idea, so we are at an inpasse. An armor check penalty and arcane spell failure chance are hardly good or logical reasons to deny heavy armor to drow. It, however, is arbitrary. I can turn around and give humans or dwarves or elves heavy armor, would you use the same argument? The point was, your argument was flawed and illogical to begin with. You don't arbitrarily deny equipment to something or someone because of those perceived deficits. -Just what do you do in the Underdark, then? All sorts of things. But you don't necessarily have to engage in stealth. Certainly it helps but it's not mandatory. -Arbitrary nothing. The only canon source on the topic at hand backs what I say, as it says the average warrior/fighter in a Drow patrol wears chain mail, meaning they are not wearing Heavy Armor. It is arbitrary. Overwhelmingly so. And even more so when you consider the stipulations of the thread, ie 20th level. It is arbitrary for precisely the reasons you have given. No one's going to care if it gives a negative modifier to armor check or lowers dex. They are not sufficient reasons to arbitrary deny heavy armor to drow. -The stipulations of the encounter have changed tenfold since the thread was started. When we began talking/mentioning Drow Patrols, I provided the canon data of what a Drow Patrol is composed of. When we began talking about the stopping power of Adamantine armor, I erased Drow and SEALs from the situation, as they are not relevant in such a discussion. When we began talking about Red Wizards, I erased Drow from the situation, as they are not relevant in such a discussion. In your mind, it may have, but for others it has not. The scenario still involves 20th level, which is why your canon data is irrelevant. ... How is adamantine not relevant? I already stated the reasons why adamantine is not only relevant it belongs in the scenario. Consider the wealth level of the drow, consider the setting they are in, consider the equipment they can have. -No, you are wrong, and I tire of arguing how my own perceptions of something can be incorrect. It is very clear you are wrong. You quite clearly labeled him as snarky. Too proud to admit it when you are wrong? If you are, don't bother to post because it makes you come across as ignorant or petulant. I and others too tire, but it's because repeated banging of our heads against the wall. Others and myself have always argued from a neutral viewpoint and backed our arguments up. You and the team favoring the SEALs have always relied on conjecture and assumptions or don't acknowledge the stipulations of the thread. We have always listened to what your side has to say, at least be considerate and return the favor.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-07-08, 04:10 AM	I'm not sure there was any confusion. I was just making a statement. :) You did seem to be confused though. You said that I naturally assumed that the tech of the SEALs would fail. This is not so. Hence why I said you were mistaken. I always give reasons why people are mistaken or misunderstand, unlike some others. I would recommend you stick to your guns, as you are correct in this situation. A SEAL element, regardless of size, brings certain things to a fight. Beyond those, we're talking about a military force that exceeds the parameters of the debate. Indeed. People were talking about bringing in additional troops to correct a perceived imbalance. Doing that would mean that it wouldn't involve just SEALs and drow anymore. I'm not sure that this is very realistic, though. SEALs operate in certain ways... independent 4-man teams don't really lend themselves to what they do well. I've seen half-squad elements operate before... but almost always in conjunction with other forces. Hence why I said that the SEALs could start off with either one or more squads and bring in more as needed. This was quite clearly stated. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. There are enough feats, items, spells, and differentials between attributes to argue between just two individuals of two different classes--let alone a battle between 16-32 individuals of that high a level. Disagree about D&D rules? The scenario involves D&D precisely for the reason that it's set in Faerun and that it involves 20th level. How can you disagree? :/ I think you took me too literally; I meant that it's better to stick to the established SEAL TTP for nomenclature and such--to make things more transparent for everyone participating. Not everyone is going to understand the nomenclature, hence why simplified terminology is better. This is what I was referring to: "And you lifted that straight out of wiki..." There was no offer to look anything up; seemed like an accusation to me. I didn't mean it to be an accusation, but considering that I didn't know why you were doing it, yes, it may have been accusatory. As for my intent, I think it's been fairly clear from the get-go. :) As have I :). That's an opinion; much like mine. Which is the truth. I wasn't smug. And if you assume that I was, then you're wrong, hence please don't assume. I did no such thing. I asked you directly if that was your intent. Beyond that, I continued my post in civil tone, with the assumption that the above was not the case. That's the second time you've made more or less the same statement. The irony is still there. By implying that I was smug you did assume, by implying that weapons that could ordinary steel would cut through adamantine, you are assuming. And can you comprehensively be assured of a SEALs victory given all that was discussed? By saying so, you are making a subjective statement and opinion. Absolute certainly and subjective statements are mutually exclusive. You'll note that I and Derren S have done no such thing. Admittedly, it was relevant only to the sidebar discussion we were having. I don't know how that sidebar discussion cropped up in the first place considering that it quite clearly stated in the thread that it was to involve 20th level drow and SEALs. I'm merely pointing out that it is a somewhat unrealistic example lacking necessary detail. I admit that it would be a rather heinous proposition to stat out a minimum of 16 nerfed characters for the purposes of accurately simulating within d20 parameters what would happen. At the same time, I am trying to point out that, unless one does this, all that will occur in this thread is a constant melee of "I'm right!"/"No, I'm right!" And, in many cases, such statements will based only on conjecture and opinion. I already gave examples in a previous post how the drow can emerge in victory, and the basis did rely on D&D rules, considering this was in Faerun, it made sense. Discussions call for the backing up of viewpoints and arguments. To have a discussion you would need to do much to actually give reasons why you think as you do. Otherwise, the point of discussion fails. And while discussion would involve conjecture and opinion, it would also involve facts and relevancy in equal measure. No, that is incorrect. My posts have included the proposal that a 16-man SEAL platoon would defeat the stated Menzoberranyr patrol. Beyond that, my posts have consistently asked for greater detail and for a variety of comparisons. I think (I could be wrong) that you have been frustrated enough by your opposition in this thread that you'd rather peg me into a stereotype. Please don't. :) Once more: that example was contigent on using the Menzoberranyr patrol as an example. I understant we're not using that example. Having said that, I stated that the magic, items, etc., fielded by that group, as statted, would not have overcome the firepower of the 16-man SEAL platoon. Please be clear. You say level alone wouldn't/won't matter, then go on down to say that we have already established that we are no longer using the party from Menzo, then go further on to say that the 16 man SEAL platoon would defeat the Menzoberranzyr patrol. See where I'm going? Yes... Yes... Because it still seems to be that you haven't. I am curious about this. It's quite clearly spelled out how damage resistance works. Given that the d20 M16s and such inflict 2d8 points of damage, it's higly unlikely that the average attack will somehow be "nullified" (given average damage rolls of 8-10 points of damage befor DR is applied). It does, however, damage reduction A and damage reduction B works differently. In this case, since adamantine confers DR X (where x is the numerical)/-. This means that it negates the damage from weapons altogether, hence no weapon negates the DR. I didn't say they couldn't! :) You quite clearly said in your previous response that weapons that could defeat steel could defeat adamatine...my point is that only enchanted arms can cut through it (adamantine). Hence, why you are wrong in your assumptions. I never make baseless points or statements or opinions. I stated that ANY individual wielding a mundane weapon could potentially harm a drow wearing adamantine armour. To whit, an individual with a longsword (1d8 damage) that strikes a drow wearing adamantine plate for 8 damage would in fact inflict 5 points of damage on said drow. Is this correct, or not. No, that is incorrect. And makes it quite clear you haven't actually read the rules. Or if you have, then you didn't understand the rules. If the former, please don't lie. :) If the latter, I'll gladly help you out; but I don't understand how you could have missed it, it is stated quite clearly in the rules. As per the rules regarding adamantine it confers DR X/-. As per the rules governing damage reduction, where there is a hyphen after the /, it means that no weapon could negate the DR; in other words, the DR completely negates the damage from the attack. So, you'll be stuck with firing at the drow in adamantine but never actually hitting. Couple this with enchantments, ie heavy fortification, etc, this becomes more of a problem. I didn't answer the paragraph previous to the one above because it seems we are constantly going in circles on that topic. I'm afraid you automatically assume I'm trying to say or argue something that I'm not. But you have made more assumptions than I, and everything that Derren S or I have written, we have always backed it up with the relevant rules or points. Thus far, you've given me a number of individuals and an indeterminate break-down of what classes they follow. Given this, no: I don't believe that we have concretely identified what tactics the drow would be trained in. Or, in other words: 16 SEALs that are part of the same platoon train together exclusively to work as a team. 16 drow may very well have done the same, but unless we pin down what classes they belong to, we can't possibly know what their tactics would be. This would be something that help the discussion at hand. I could give you some tactics that the drow may utilise, but Derren S and I have already argued how magic and magic items can stop tech. Once more: that example was contigent on using the Menzoberranyr patrol as an example. I understant we're not using that example. Having said that, I stated that the magic, items, etc., fielded by that group, as statted, would not have overcome the firepower of the 16-man SEAL platoon. Yes to the first and yes to the second. I'm sorry friend, but this is a misconception. Movies rely on technical advisors to present a visually pleasing version of how SoF operate. If you base your theories on what movies are offering, you're beginning with incorrect premises. It was just to give an idea. It wasn't supposed to be taken as absolute fact. See the above example. What happens when an individual with a steel longsword successfully strikes a drow wearing heavy adamantine armour for 4+ points of damage? Answer: the drow takes 1+ point of damage (depending on damage roll, of course). That individual can't as per the rules. Your answer is an assumption and based on conjecture only. You haven't looked at or don't understand the rules. Refer to my responses above and below this statement. No, it wasn't. No, I'm afraid you were confused about what I was saying. See all above examples. Yes, it is. Especially in light of your example above, especially considering how you say you have read the rules... It's looking like it's the other way around at this point... Please don't mischaracterise or misrepresent me. No, that's just mathematics. If I am capable of only doing 1-8 points of damage, DR 3/- is worth quite a bit. If I am capable of doing 2-16 points of damage, DR 3/- is worth quite less. In the case of the former, 50% of the time you could negate all but 1 from the damage inflicted. In this case of the latter? Significantly less. If you didn't understand, please don't hesitate to ask me. I'm always happy to help. If you didn't bother to read the rules, please do and please don't lie about it :). As it turns out, yes. Yes I was. As it turns out, you still seem confused over DR X/-. It doesn't work like DR 5/magic or DR 10/magic and silver. Cheers, P. Cheers, mate.
Stigger 01-07-08, 04:52 AM	The Predator is an unmanned aerial vehicle. The latter can be equipped with missiles and even GPS-guided bombs, but it is a remote-controlled platform that is not part of SEAL inventory. I was under the impression that Predator was the name given to the SRAW program, to replace the AT-4 system. I'm guessing they changed it since I last read up on it. The Javelin is a 25+lb missile system that, weight aside, does not lend to mobility when being carried. Ditto for the Stinger. It's all mission-dependent, really. Would a SEAL platoon be carrying one on every push? No. I had actually qualified that one earlier in the thread, that a lot of the equipment was tailored to their current mission. Fair enough, but it's not part of a SEAL team... so I'm not sure that it's very helpful. If anything, it opens the debate to even more parameters and questions. :) Which was kind of the point if we're opening it up to 20th level wizards... ;) To be sure. :) Unfortunately, d20 rules are what we have to go by. Indeed unfortunate. Pity really. I was looking it over at Borders today and was struck by the lack of lethality of most of it in the Armory book. I suppose it makes for longer lasting characters, but it was very poor for simulating the actual effects of modern firepower, at least as far as I was concerned. Derren - I'm wondering what you're putting in at the best tank in the world if its not the M1a2? I can't think of any offhand that are actually superior to it in all respects. A few ones on a fairly equal footing, but none that exceed it. Oh, and yes, they are ATGMs, though from what I recall they are IIR guided, which I would think might have a slim chance of achieving lock onto the Drow's presumably slightly radioactive armor... it should generate some heat I would think, presuming the mild radioactivity is still true, though I'm pretty unsure if its enough for a lock-on. I don't recall if it was supposed to have a anti-bunker capability though, so I'm not sure if it can be fired without a lock. Warning - Yes, I am trying to see both sides of this. I don't know if there is all that much difference between two level 20 fighter types, except for style, and in that case, superiority is highly situational. In this instance, I see the SEALs being superior at range, and the Drow being superior in melee/close quarters, but neither superior over the other inherently. General - Though something to keep in mind, that if we use LA stuff, the Drow are only going to actually be 18th level, even though I don't care for LA modifiers for the most part.
Derren S. 01-07-08, 04:59 AM	Derren - I'm wondering what you're putting in at the best tank in the world if its not the M1a2? I can't think of any offhand that are actually superior to it in all respects. A few ones on a fairly equal footing, but none that exceed it. Leopard 2 The Leopard 2 and the M1A2 are fairly equal but the L2 is slightly better.
Stigger 01-07-08, 05:03 AM	Very debatable there... but I'll just chalk that up to rooting for the home team on both our parts. :D
Derren S. 01-07-08, 05:46 AM	Very debatable there... but I'll just chalk that up to rooting for the home team on both our parts. :D There has been a study which concluded that the Leo 2 beats the M1A2w as best tank by a small margin. http://www.defense-aerospace.com/produit/4088_us.html Although I don't know if there is a newer study than this (most of such articles require subscriptions etc.)
Stigger 01-07-08, 06:34 AM	Hmmm... could be. Not sure I would call it really comprehensive if its just based on four criteria. Though I thought that the M1a2 was upgraded to the Rheinmetal a while ago, and already had the LRP ammunition, so I'm not sure that's too current. Could be wrong though, don't really keep up with tanks and armored vehicles too much.
Derren S. 01-07-08, 06:55 AM	Anyway, back to drow. Here a small comparisation of seals and drow HP: Seals (Because Drow level adjustment) Ability scores: Drow (Magical equipment) AC: Drow: Magical Equipment Attack: Drow (Ability scores + magical equipment) Damage: Equal (High base damage vs. magical enchantments) Range: Seals (Ranged vs Melee) Utility: Drow (Magical items) Battlefield Control: Drow (Magical Items) Movement: Drow (Flying+Teleporting) As you see the only advantage the seals have is range. In all other areas they loose against properly equipped level 20 drow fighter. While their damage is equal they will hit less because of their low attack compared to AC. How to negate the seals range advantage: - Invisibility - Dimension Door (Boots of) - Arrow Deflection (Armor enchantment) - Cover (Adamantine Tower Shield) Reduce the effect of range advantage: - Increased speed - Displacement (Cloak of) - Darkness Of course the drow will not have all of those items but the chance is very high that they have one of them and then the only advantage the seals have is gone.
Stigger 01-07-08, 07:04 AM	Maybe not on AC, depends on the type, and it could hurt the dex bonus if its heavy or not. I'd say that was conditional, depending on armor type. That could affect the attack thing as well, narrowing the gap if they're using a finesse weapon, goes along with the armor issue. And what are we defining as utility there? That's a little... vague. Everything else looks about right though.
Derren S. 01-07-08, 07:19 AM	Maybe not on AC, depends on the type, and it could hurt the dex bonus if its heavy or not. I'd say that was conditional, depending on armor type. Its not only the type of armor. A +5 Chain Shirt together with a Necklace of Natural armor +3 and a Ring of Protection +3 together with some AC giving feats and some potions will result in a much higher AC than what the Seals have without limiting the Dex Bonus. That could affect the attack thing as well, narrowing the gap if they're using a finesse weapon, goes along with the armor issue. The Max Dex bonus from armor only affects how much Dex you can count to your AC, not Weapon Finesse or Dex Checks. Those still use the full Dex Bonus. Maximum Dex Bonus This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer’s ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn’t affect any other Dexterity-related abilities. And what are we defining as utility there? That's a little... vague. Everything magical equipment can give you which doesn't fit into the other categories like summoning, spiderclimb, flying, instant fortress, etc.)
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-07-08, 07:33 AM	Which was kind of the point if we're opening it up to 20th level wizards... ;) I know that you're being tongue in cheek here, but I'll write a response that's relevant to the discussion. It makes more sense for the drow to have access to wizards and arcane and divine spellcasters than it is for the SEALs to diversify and bring in additional logistics. Especially considering that the portals necessary for such vast-scale transportation would draw the attention of other nations and perhaps the attention of deities. This was the point that I made earlier why SEALs bringing in additionals is illogical. And I see you haven't addressed my points yet ;). Though something to keep in mind, that if we use LA stuff, the Drow are only going to actually be 18th level, even though I don't care for LA modifiers for the most part. The poster never did specify whether he was referring to LA, CR or levels. So, we're just assuming that 20 character levels is pertinent. While the LA of drow may be +2, the CR is +1 Anyway, back to drow. Here a small comparisation of seals and drow Careful there, people may start to argue a tangential point to the discussion at hand to find a way around it! Or may disprove of your points just because! As for magical equipment, some people may disapprove! With full magic at hand, it's going to be a lot worse. As you see the only advantage the seals have is range. In all other areas they loose against properly equipped level 20 drow fighter. While their damage is equal they will hit less because of their low attack compared to AC. Even with range that advantage is negated, especially if said drow wears adamantine armor. And it's going to be a lot worse if the drow wield adamantine weapons. - Invisibility Everything magical equipment can give you which doesn't fit into the other categories like summoning, spiderclimb, flying, instant fortress, etc.) Whoa, you're using a spell effect here! And having the drow have access to magic items and equipment! This is a big no-no! Its not only the type of armor. A +5 Chain Shirt together with a Necklace of Natural armor +3 and a Ring of Protection +3 together with some AC giving feats and some potions will result in a much higher AC than what the Seals have without limiting the Dex Bonus. And that's only one set of armor, if one is so inclined, one could easily optimise either the AC, damage, or attack of a drow. But since that's munchkinism, it isn't appropriate here. Anyway, that's only one way of doing it but a good way and even with an average Dex of just 14 (as stipulated in the OP), the drow in question will be hitting an AC of 27 (10+5+3+3+4+2), not counting Combat Expertise, special materials, or the like. If you have an extra dextrous drow, ie Dex 20 or 18, that's an AC of either 30 or 29. Since Derren S was kind enough to lay down some comparisons, I'll figure that I'll also be more in-depth with mine. I'll actually post two sets of comparable, one that involves SEALs versus drow fighter, while the other will involve SEALs fighting a drow party with all four iconic roles covered. I'll continue to use the spells I've given or the time being.
Red_Wizard 01-07-08, 10:50 AM	I agree with your assessment that the SEALs could not beat the drow. Please consider the relevancy of your statement, the intelligence of the drow (+2 to Int), etc. Why would the drow blindly and aimlessly run at the SEALs as they fire upon them? It absolutely makes no sense and is totally illogical. Again, why would sapient intelligent humanoids forego tactics and just blindly charge the opposition? Especially if that way means their death? :/ :confused: Sigh. That was the point. They would never do this, thus the SEAL's would never win. As I said, it was meant to be Facetious. I was pointing out that the only way for the SEALs to win, was for the Drow to not act rationally, or "realistically". No, but we have D&D rules, and I have always advocated people actually read them to understand what they and we are talking about. Yes we do, and the fact that Lesser Ironguard, and Ironguard were not mentioned would lead me to believe people wish to argue rather than prove their point. One relatively simple spell, and the Drow COULD run blindly at the SEALs, having the bullets simply fly harmlessly through them. Perhaps you should consider your posts and the points I and others have made before you jump to conclusions? Also, consider that the setting is Faerun, hence you would did to think it through in terms of D&D rules. I have considered them, and my conclusion remains unchanged. Things seemed fairly simple to me from the beginning, but I suppose that isn't the same for all of us. -RW
Philalexandros 01-07-08, 11:25 AM	You did seem to be confused though. I'm afraid you simply misunderstood me. Look back at that original paragraph--it's really just a rhetorical question. I knew what you were trying to say; I was asking why following your lead on this (assuming that both tech and magic worked) was so hard. If anything, the only part of that statement directed toward you was the part that said "The same way magic can overcome tech...", as in, where it logically applies given the rules. Eg, M4 5.56mm ammunition should not be able to pierce a Wall of Force. Disagree about D&D rules? The scenario involves D&D precisely for the reason that it's set in Faerun and that it involves 20th level. How can you disagree? :/ Please re-read my post. I specifically stated that I disagreed with the idea that one can plausibly debate this topic given just the amount of data you listed. I then went on to qualify exactly what I thought was necessary to get past the presumptive thought phase. Not everyone is going to understand the nomenclature, hence why simplified terminology is better. That's presumptive. To begin with, the TTP is by no means harder to understand than what you propose. Beyond that, what you propose is not SEAL-realistic. There's a reason why SEALs don't go into the field independently in smaller-than-squad size elements (unless absolutely necessary). Firepower, fields of fire, redundancy, etc, are part of this. If we're going to assign the SEALs incorrect tactics, why not say the drow will also act contrary to what works best for them? I didn't mean it to be an accusation, but considering that I didn't know why you were doing it, yes, it may have been accusatory. No worries! :) Which is the truth. I wasn't smug. And if you assume that I was, then you're wrong, hence please don't assume. I didn't; I asked. Notice that I accepted your answer. :) ... by implying that weapons that could ordinary steel would cut through adamantine, you are assuming. Answer this question E.S.: what happens to someone wearing adamantine plate armour when he is successfully struck by someone wielding a steel weapon for 4 points of damage? And can you comprehensively be assured of a SEALs victory given all that was discussed? Regarding the standard templated Menzoberranyr party? Reasonably, yes. Regarding the the actual discussion topic? Of course not--hence my asking for more data. :) By saying so, you are making a subjective statement and opinion. Absolute certainly and subjective statements are mutually exclusive. You'll note that I and Derren S have done no such thing. Derren hasn't. You yourself have stated absolute statements (about the same sub-topic I introduced) while providing no more data than I did. I'd say that's ironic. I don't know how that sidebar discussion cropped up in the first place considering that it quite clearly stated in the thread that it was to involve 20th level drow and SEALs. And I have no problem dropping it. Conversely, though, I would really appreciate that we expand on this topic by actually dealing with concrete numbers: how many fighters, how many wizards, how many clerics, how many rogues, etc., do the drow have, what are their attributes, and what items do they have? I see Derren is already moving in that direction. I already gave examples in a previous post how the drow can emerge in victory, and the basis did rely on D&D rules, considering this was in Faerun, it made sense. Did you do so while providing as a minimum the above data? If not, I will respectfully decline to accept your results as more than honest conjecture. Discussions call for the backing up of viewpoints and arguments. To have a discussion you would need to do much to actually give reasons why you think as you do. Otherwise, the point of discussion fails. And while discussion would involve conjecture and opinion, it would also involve facts and relevancy in equal measure. I think I have provided sufficient reasons as to why the above detail is needed. Without it, I highly doubt you could reasonably argue the outcome between two different fighters. You would almost certainly have to get into inventories, feats, etc., proving that additional data is needed. And we're talking about two formations of distinctly different enemies. Please be clear. You say level alone wouldn't/won't matter, then go on down to say that we have already established that we are no longer using the party from Menzo, then go further on to say that the 16 man SEAL platoon would defeat the Menzoberranzyr patrol. See where I'm going? I believe the only confusion here lies in the fact that the Menzoberranyr example keeps popping up--due to limitations of this sort of forum, I'm afraid. Here's an attempt to be as clear as possible: 1) The templated Menzoberranyr patrol would, IMHO, be defeated by a 16-man platoon of SEALs using the applicable SoF template and equipment from D20 Modern. 1a) Having said that... I understand we are not to base the overall debate on this example. 2) Where the main topic at hand is concerned, I believe we need to nail down how many drow, how many of each class, what inventories each has, and what attributes each has. This means that it negates the damage from weapons altogether, hence no weapon negates the DR. I didn't say it didn't. I have repeatedly pointed to the fact that, even given heavy adamantine armour, 4+ points of damage dealt will ensure the wearer suffers 1+ point of damage (depending on what the damage roll ultimately was). You quite clearly said in your previous response that weapons that could defeat steel could defeat adamatine...my point is that only enchanted arms can cut through it (adamantine). Hence, why you are wrong in your assumptions. I never make baseless points or statements or opinions. See above... As per the rules regarding adamantine it confers DR X/-. As per the rules governing damage reduction, where there is a hyphen after the /, it means that no weapon could negate the DR; in other words, the DR completely negates the damage from the attack. So, you'll be stuck with firing at the drow in adamantine but never actually hitting. My understanding of DR 3/- is that the individual enjoying this benefit will always subtract 3 points of damage from every damage die rolled against him. Hence, once again, if someone does 4 points of damage to said person... He actually only suffers 1 point of damage. Is this incorrect? But you have made more assumptions than I, and everything that Derren S or I have written, we have always backed it up with the relevant rules or points. No, ES, in fact... I have asked more questions and did so in the spirit of getting this debate past guess-work and assumption. Feel free to continue harping on my Menzoberranzan example, but I think the majority of my posts speak for themselves. This would be something that help the discussion at hand. I could give you some tactics that the drow may utilise, ... That would help, along with the other data I requested. ... but Derren S and I have already argued how magic and magic items can stop tech. That's less than helpful, though, given that we have yet to identify what the SEALs' actual enemy would be. In other words, by not identifying concrete basics (X fighters, Y mages, Z clerics, etc.), we can't really establish what kind of magic the drow would have and how much of it would be available. It was just to give an idea. It wasn't supposed to be taken as absolute fact. I understand, but I would point to the fact that, just as I am not excited about dramatized, inappropriate movie depictions for the SEALs, neither would you be favorable toward the novelized depiction of drow. Or are you prepared to take a handicap and accept the possibility that one of your fighters might schew the results by trying to "pull a Dinin" on one of your wizards... or "pull a Berg'inyon" and run-off on the remainder of the force if it starts looking bad? See what I'm getting at? ;) That individual can't as per the rules. Your answer does not reconcile with the rules. If the - in DR X/- meant that nothing can affect the individual endowed with DR regardless of the damage rolled, then the number would be unnecessary! Clearly, the number shows that the individual resists only that amount of damage listed (1, 2, or 3, depending on the armour), and that any damage above and beyond that would be subtracted normally from their HP. What am I missing here? Please don't mischaracterise or misrepresent me. Word that rhymes with pit for tat, my friend. (edit: I did not intend to use vulgar language here; apparently, the first word in that commonly used phrase is equated to popular vernacular for "nipple") If you didn't understand, please don't hesitate to ask me. I'm always happy to help. If you didn't bother to read the rules, please do and please don't lie about it :). Please don't assume people lie. I invite you to look at DR again for yourself. As it turns out, you still seem confused over DR X/-. It doesn't work like DR 5/magic or DR 10/magic and silver. What happens when an individual who has DR 5/magic receives 6 points of non-magical damage? What happens when someone with DR 10/magic and silver receives 11 points of non-magical, non-silver damage? Ciao, P.
Red_Wizard 01-07-08, 11:59 AM	If there is any confusion on DR, I'll help clarify. DR = Damage Reduction. DR X/ Magic means that only weapons that are magical can overcome the DR. DR 10/ Magic Means that unless the weapon is Magical, the first 10 points of damage from a non magical weapon are negated. DR X/ - means that you have DR to ALL weapons, and no individual thing overcomes it. DR 5/ - Means that the first 5 points of damage from all weapons is negated. Overflow is taken normally. DR "-" does not make you immune to everything, nor would it negate all the damage derived from bullets. Maybe I misunderstand ES's remarks, but this was the impression I felt you were giving. -RW
Sol_Odlanier 01-07-08, 03:27 PM	Strength is required for anyone to wear heavy. Since a char in D&D cannot have good stats in all ability, it is logical that there would be dump stats involved. Hence, the drow who wear heavy armor wouldn't mind a hit to dex or armor check penalty. What I think That Master LK meant is that regardless of what a Drow favors, is unpractical that a Drow would have that kind of armor since it is a "pratrol party" not a "raiding party" or a "anti SEALs party", therefore they need light armor (otherwise they'll suffer an armor check penalty that they don't want) to explore those areas there the enemy (whether is SEALs monters or other drow) can be potencially hidden. That's called "noise disipline" The same reason Soldiers don't(or shouldn't) use reflective glasses or light up a cigarrette in the dark and they walk/run to whoever they need to talk to instead of yelling. Does it make sense:) ? Now, I'm really trying to be inpratial here (I don't care either way it goes) I have a suggetion for both sides, how about you sir/ma'am build lv 20 "Pratrol party" and Master Karsus (or any one that has the books) builds an Lv 20 SEAL team, give it to an inpartial party and/or trade the stats with eachother and DUKE IT OUT separately.
Sol_Odlanier 01-07-08, 03:46 PM	Anyway, back to drow. Here a small comparisation of seals and drow HP: Seals (Because Drow level adjustment) Ability scores: Drow (Magical equipment) AC: Drow: Magical Equipment Attack: Drow (Ability scores + magical equipment) Damage: Equal (High base damage vs. magical enchantments) Range: Seals (Ranged vs Melee) Utility: Drow (Magical items) Battlefield Control: Drow (Magical Items) Movement: Drow (Flying+Teleporting) As you see the only advantage the seals have is range. In all other areas they loose against properly equipped level 20 drow fighter. While their damage is equal they will hit less because of their low attack compared to AC. How to negate the seals range advantage: - Invisibility - Dimension Door (Boots of) - Arrow Deflection (Armor enchantment) - Cover (Adamantine Tower Shield) Reduce the effect of range advantage: - Increased speed - Displacement (Cloak of) - Darkness Of course the drow will not have all of those items but the chance is very high that they have one of them and then the only advantage the seals have is gone. I agree with it exept for the adamantine Tower Shield unless is a DANCING Adamantine Shield( and they don't need one since They Should know the area better thn SEALs and know where to get cover:D And IMO you should includes Skills (which I will give to the SEALS because the soldier Class is sorta rougueish) unless the whole Patrol Party is composed of rogues then It also more power to the Drow.
Stigger 01-07-08, 04:23 PM	I know that you're being tongue in cheek here, but I'll write a response that's relevant to the discussion. It makes more sense for the drow to have access to wizards and arcane and divine spellcasters than it is for the SEALs to diversify and bring in additional logistics. Especially considering that the portals necessary for such vast-scale transportation would draw the attention of other nations and perhaps the attention of deities. This was the point that I made earlier why SEALs bringing in additionals is illogical. And I see you haven't addressed my points yet ;). You'll have to refresh my memory then, since I have no idea what points you're referring to. As to the whole support issue drawing attention, so? What does that have to do with anything? Really, this whole questions started out as a Drow warrior versus a SEAL (whom I'm presuming represent the pinnacle of soldierliness to the OP, I'd have gone SAS or SF myself, but that's neither here nor there) to see who would come out on top in a relatively fair one on one fight. Yes, before you even say it, I know its moved beyond that, but what I want to know is how bringing a spellcaster or two, who are essentially the equivalent of walking artillery batteries, even remotely makes sense in the context of this discussion? This isn't a question of who's society, magic, equipment, weaponry, or whatever is better, its a question of pinnacle of Drow versus the pinnacle of human and seeing who comes out on top. If we reduce this to a battle of equipment and spells, the point of the exercise just gets lost completely, at least in my opinion. The poster never did specify whether he was referring to LA, CR or levels. So, we're just assuming that 20 character levels is pertinent. While the LA of drow may be +2, the CR is +1 In regards to the LA stuff, I hate LA with a violent passion to be honest, and just toss it as a concept period in my games, but those are the rules, so establishing how we're going to treat that one is probably in order. Oh, yeah, almost forgot, the Intelligence modifier of +2 for the drow only results in a modifier increase of +1, which translates to a +5% bonus to checks, which isn't that impressive if you really think about it. Guess I didn't word that quite precisely enough. Otherwise I'd pretty much agree with Sol's suggestions up there, though I'd suggest that posting builds to compare to each other would probably be a better idea to give us something we can all agree with and lets us avoid cries of foul later on.
Sol_Odlanier 01-07-08, 04:43 PM	...whom I'm presuming represent the pinnacle of soldierliness to the OP, I'd have gone SAS or SF myself,.... Pss, SF>SAS sorry, you know I had to (The home team and all that;) Oh, yeah, almost forgot, the Intelligence modifier of +2 for the drow only results in a modifier increase of +1, which translates to a +5% bonus to checks, which isn't that impressive if you really think about it. Guess I didn't word that quite precisely enough.. Hmm, Good point.... Otherwise I'd pretty much agree with Sol's suggestions up there, though I'd suggest that posting builds to compare to each other would probably be a better idea to give us something we can all agree with and lets us avoid cries of foul later on. Exactly!
Warning 01-07-08, 04:48 PM	Pss, SF>SAS sorry, you know I had to (The home team and all that;) Actually, Sas>SF. And so you understand I am not biased, I am an American and have been supporting Seals throughout this debate. The british are the best trained and the US is the best equipt. If you look at the training the British have to go through over all compared to that of the US, you would understand that they have a clear tatical advanatage over us. And for those of you who will disagree, research it, come back and tell me, because I know I am 100% correct on this one.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-07-08, 05:26 PM	Actually, Sas>SF. And so you understand I am not biased, I am an American and have been supporting Seals throughout this debate. The british are the best trained and the US is the best equipt. If you look at the training the British have to go through over all compared to that of the US, you would understand that they have a clear tatical advanatage over us. And for those of you who will disagree, research it, come back and tell me, because I know I am 100% correct on this one. I can understand why Red Wizard says Drow will win. Look at his name. Man, I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but I'm so sick of you nerds and arguing with you. If you actualy belive Guns would loose to swords, then I'm done with this. You think living in your mothers basements reading manga, playing DnD games, reading orc goblin novels means you knwo about military forces? You are sadly mistaken. Warning, That's not the Thread debate, is SEALs vs Drow, If you want to start a Thread about, Gun vs swords go to the Armor and equipment form and do so and I will back you up. And for the record I live in the barracks I don't read manga, I (sadly) don't play D&D (no one to play with :() I have Never read an Orc (or goblin) novel, and I don't only know about the military, I live the military.
Red_Wizard 01-07-08, 05:37 PM	lmao, Warning, no matter your incarnation, you continue to amuse me. More so in the "Huh, there really are people that pathetic" kind of way. ;) As for your nerd comment, grow up man. I know you are still young, but at least pretend the years have taught you some meager measure of maturity. You yourself are on a site dedicated to Fantasy RP, which would suggest you are either yourself a fan, or in turn lack enough of a social life that you feel some inner need to troll these -- and perhaps other-- boards to pass away your time. Drawing simplistic conclusions, and evoking tired stereotypes such as living in ones parents basements, and reading manga belittle both yourself, and those here who are far removed from such instances. I myself strongly dislike manga, and neither live with, nor near my parents, of which both instances seem to disprove your opinions of me as a -- unfortunately-- fellow poster. The question and answer is not about guns VS swords, it is about tactics and the advantages each side have at their disposal. Thus, Magic VS Tech is the point of contention. In the non magical arms race, sure the SEALs have the advantage. I don't think anyone would contest that mundanely in a flat featureless arena, the gun has the advantage. But we are not in a mundane flat arena for this debate now are we? If you answer yes, then skip the remainder of the post, as you clearly have no wish to see this resolved. Now then, given that Magic allows a person to instantaneously transport themselves to any location, AND magic allows a person to strike invisibly from a safe location perhaps miles or planes away, what could possibly make you think the SEALs, or any other Spec. Op. group, could hope to attain a victory here? If I sit quietly in an extra-dimensional space and simply wait for you to sleep, then strike at you with a magic blade, what good did all those "advanced" weapons do you? Now you can try to argue contrary to this, but even someone exhibiting the remotest manner of logic has to concede that the Drow have never been portrayed as a race that fights fairly. Therefore one must also concede that given the advantage of supreme stealth via varied magics, they should in ALL instances win. This is not to belittle the work of the SEALs, nor is it to suggest that in their mundane element they would not have the advantage. However, when a person can cast a simple spell to protect themselves from all metal objects, what use are bullets? When magical healing can put a critically wounded soldier back in the fight seconds after he fell, what even would superior numbers mean? I'm sorry if you are saddened by the fact that few wish to listen to your inane rants, and it's sadder still that you wish to so blindly make a fool of yourself around people who are more knowledgeable than you in most areas. If you'd care to calm down for a second, and try an disprove any of what I have said pertaining to the Drow, then I welcome it. However if all you wish to do is continue to be belligerent, then perhaps it is best you were on your way as you said. I, nor any other here, have the time of day for your snarky immature attitude. -RW P.S. Should you try to argue in favour of heat seeking technology to pinpoint the Drow, you would need to determine whether or not invisibility protects the recipient from emitting heat signals. As the rules on Infravision were changed due in part to this very unanswered question, you will be hard pressed to accomplish such a feat.
Warning 01-07-08, 06:52 PM	Ok, first off. Sorry for lashing out at you. I just got frustrated after going to court today for some stupid traffic ticket. But you know I don't play DnD games. And I hate going to the candle keep because if your post is anything other than sucking up to the author, automatic ignored/baned/not taken into consideration. It's like that forum was made only to praise authors than actualy discuss positives AND negitives. Maybe since I don't know the whole stats ordeal I get frustrated. So it's like, whenever I come up with a good point, someone just throws some stats back in my face, and I don't know how to counter that. Also it just gets me upset to see people actually belive that some 4ft tall purple elves that live underground and serve women would take down an elite special military squad. But I guess to each their own.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-07-08, 07:19 PM	Ok, first off. Sorry for lashing out at you. I just got frustrated after going to court today for some stupid traffic ticket. But you know I don't play DnD games. And I hate going to the candle keep because if your post is anything other than sucking up to the author, automatic ignored/baned/not taken into consideration. It's like that forum was made only to praise authors than actualy discuss positives AND negitives. . Wow, Its so nice when you behave, good job keep it up:D Can't comment about CandleKeepthough, never been there... Maybe since I don't know the whole stats ordeal I get frustrated. So it's like, whenever I come up with a good point, someone just throws some stats back in my face, and I don't know how to counter that..Well my friend You don't have to counter evrything out there, just take notes for future references, and I you don't play or have a problem with stats PM me and I'll tell you all you want to know (I may not be a may not be as knowledgeble as most here but I have over 70(80?) souce books and I think that counts Also it just gets me upset to see people actually belive that some 4ft tall purple elves that live underground and serve women would take down an elite special military squad. But I guess to each their own. I suggets to take back that "Women" remark it can be take as sexist
Red_Wizard 01-07-08, 08:24 PM	Ok, first off. Sorry for lashing out at you. I just got frustrated after going to court today for some stupid traffic ticket. But you know I don't play DnD games. And I hate going to the candle keep because if your post is anything other than sucking up to the author, automatic ignored/baned/not taken into consideration. It's like that forum was made only to praise authors than actualy discuss positives AND negitives. I won't comment one way or the other on Candlekeep, as I rarely frequent the forum other than in search of this tidbit of lore or that. However, this is NOT Candlekeep, I am NOT an author, and I do NOT require sucking up to. I'll give it as it is, and play nicely if others do the same. Hostility isn't something I would prefer to deal with here, but I won't shy from poking the proverbial stick in one eye or the other from time to time. ;) Maybe since I don't know the whole stats ordeal I get frustrated. So it's like, whenever I come up with a good point, someone just throws some stats back in my face, and I don't know how to counter that. And that again is the problem now isn't it? You want to argue/ discuss with us here on the forum, and you may know a thing or two about what you bring up from time to time. But when you won't take the time to see where your opposition is coming from, it makes you look damned silly trying. Were I to argue tactics with someone, or perhaps discuss the best way to brew wine, I would first find all relevant material on the matter, and read before hand. Alternatively, from your stance, I could in theory argue my point, and then if disproved or countered, take the time then to read the available material I was being beaten with. Ignorance is never a valid argument I am afraid, nor one I would have expected you to continue hiding behind. I think you have had ample time to be honest to at least TRY and find the material, yet continuing to yell "I'm right" repeatedly, and expecting us to cave seems to be the avenue you have instead chosen. Maybe for some it works, but if your time here has shown you anything, we are not amongst the crowd won over by such verbal tactics. Also it just gets me upset to see people actually belive that some 4ft tall purple elves that live underground and serve women would take down an elite special military squad. But I guess to each their own. Well here is the way I see it. They do not exist, so if you wish to pit real world against imagination, I suppose real world will win. But, if you legitimately want to debate the topic, then we must turn to the information given. You will complain incessantly I am sure that it is ridiculous we throw stats at you as proof, when you don't know the stats. Aside from you choosing ignorance in such matters, how else would you suggest we prove the case? The Drow only exist on paper, and are supported by numbers. If you refuse us the information on them, how then can you hope to debate who would stand the victor? If I took all information away from you, and stripped you of all memory on the SEALs, only to say "ok, defend their position" you would come up short. You can not tell me that you could defend the position of anything without information, so why demand that we ignore the only valid information we have for the debate. If you wish to win by striking out our side, and saying "Ha Ha, win now" bravo, I'd cede you the victory. After all I will not claim that I can win an argument if information on the topic does not exist. However, if you truly want to try and learn about the Realms, and decide for yourself knowing both views, ask me, and I will be happy to help. After all, one less person running their mouth without knowing the facts is always a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. ;) -RW P.S. You are still overlooking Magic here I'm sorry to say. We aren't talking the Mundane. Not arm wrestling, not boxing, not knife fighting, not MMA, not dancing, nor any other of a long list of rather mundane physical comparisons. If you are assuming the SEALs have their weapons, training, gear, and are allowed to preform via their tactics, and at their peak efficiency, why deny the opposition the same? The question wasn't mundane weapon on weapon, it was being on being. Comparing and contrasting the former is already agreed to which is the victor, it is the latter however that is the point we discuss and you miss.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-07-08, 08:41 PM	Sigh. That was the point. They would never do this, thus the SEAL's would never win. As I said, it was meant to be Facetious. I was pointing out that the only way for the SEALs to win, was for the Drow to not act rationally, or "realistically". Why would you want to bring up a facetious point to a discussion though? And I was poking fun at you. Yes we do, and the fact that Lesser Ironguard, and Ironguard were not mentioned would lead me to believe people wish to argue rather than prove their point. One relatively simple spell, and the Drow COULD run blindly at the SEALs, having the bullets simply fly harmlessly through them. Even with the spell cast, the drow are too intelligent to run blindly at the SEALs. That'd still be an extremely stupid tactic. I have considered them, and my conclusion remains unchanged. Things seemed fairly simple to me from the beginning, but I suppose that isn't the same for all of us. Yes, with your great example of facetious statements, it really helped!
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-07-08, 09:19 PM	I'm afraid you simply misunderstood me. Look back at that original paragraph--it's really just a rhetorical question. I knew what you were trying to say; I was asking why following your lead on this (assuming that both tech and magic worked) was so hard. If anything, the only part of that statement directed toward you was the part that said "The same way magic can overcome tech...", as in, where it logically applies given the rules. Eg, M4 5.56mm ammunition should not be able to pierce a Wall of Force. Rhetorical questions don't work very well on forum boards, especially given the context which you asked said rhetorical question in. Please try to make everything clearer in the future, as I would endeavor to do as well, but many/the majority (I won't be so arrogant as to say all) of my points are already quite clear. Please re-read my post. I specifically stated that I disagreed with the idea that one can plausibly debate this topic given just the amount of data you listed. I then went on to qualify exactly what I thought was necessary to get past the presumptive thought phase. I wasn't debating from data posted on the page we were discussing on, but the pages before that page. That's presumptive. To begin with, the TTP is by no means harder to understand than what you propose. Beyond that, what you propose is not SEAL-realistic. There's a reason why SEALs don't go into the field independently in smaller-than-squad size elements (unless absolutely necessary). Firepower, fields of fire, redundancy, etc, are part of this. If we're going to assign the SEALs incorrect tactics, why not say the drow will also act contrary to what works best for them? However, the point remains that simplified terminology is always going to be easier to understand than specific terms, especially given the niche value of the terminology. For the moment, take me as someone who doesn't understand the SEALs at all (I'm familiar with SEALs and know what they can do, but this is for the benefit of all), what would you suggest as 'realistic'? We already know that SEALs wouldn't team in 40 4-man squads and we know that the SEALs wouldn't have fighter jets, orbital bombardment platforms, etc, on stand-by. I didn't; I asked. Notice that I accepted your answer. :) Uh, you implied that I came off as smug and then backed it up by saying it was your opinion. Okay. Answer this question E.S.: what happens to someone wearing adamantine plate armour when he is successfully struck by someone wielding a steel weapon for 4 points of damage? What kind of adamantine armor? You have to realise it's not as simple as that. Enchanted, normal, heavy, light, medium, etc. I'll address the DR X/- further down your responses, if that's okay. Regarding the standard templated Menzoberranyr party? Reasonably, yes. Regarding the the actual discussion topic? Of course not--hence my asking for more data. :) Yes, I was poking fun at you; yes, it doesn't carry very well over the forums. Though really, that tangential discussion topic shouldn't have happened. Derren hasn't. You yourself have stated absolute statements (about the same sub-topic I introduced) while providing no more data than I did. I'd say that's ironic. My absolute statement involved the actual relevancy of the subtopic to the discussion at hand. There's a difference. My 'absolute' statement involved 20th level SEALs versus 20th level drow. There's a difference. And I have no problem dropping it. Conversely, though, I would really appreciate that we expand on this topic by actually dealing with concrete numbers: how many fighters, how many wizards, how many clerics, how many rogues, etc., do the drow have, what are their attributes, and what items do they have? I see Derren is already moving in that direction. Good. I would like that too. I'll be sure to provide actual numbers - but actually read what I written beforehand, I have already written that it may include 2 drow parties comprised of the iconic roles, I've said this for a while now. I can provide ability scores and items carried and wielded by the drow. What do the SEALs bring? Did you do so while providing as a minimum the above data? If not, I will respectfully decline to accept your results as more than honest conjecture. They're already posted on the other pages. I think I have provided sufficient reasons as to why the above detail is needed. Without it, I highly doubt you could reasonably argue the outcome between two different fighters. You would almost certainly have to get into inventories, feats, etc., proving that additional data is needed. And we're talking about two formations of distinctly different enemies. I have too, which is why I argued for everyone to be clear and relevant in their arguments. Tangential topics do not help the discussion at hand. I believe the only confusion here lies in the fact that the Menzoberranyr example keeps popping up--due to limitations of this sort of forum, I'm afraid. Here's an attempt to be as clear as possible: Even though the OP stipulated that it was to involve 20th chars? The poster of that quite explicitly said that it didn't involve drow versus SEALs anymore. Why was it even brought up in the first place? Why was the latter statement even brought up in the first place? It's not thread debate, it doesn't even involve the thread debate at all. There has to relevancy to the discussion at hand. If you want to have the Menzoberranyr patrol drow to versus the SEALs, do so in another thread. Or at least ignore tangential, irrelevant discussions. 1) The templated Menzoberranyr patrol would, IMHO, be defeated by a 16-man platoon of SEALs using the applicable SoF template and equipment from D20 Modern. 1a) Having said that... I understand we are not to base the overall debate on this example. 2) Where the main topic at hand is concerned, I believe we need to nail down how many drow, how many of each class, what inventories each has, and what attributes each has. See how easier it is to be clear, and yes, I understood you the first time, but wanted you to be clear for the benefit of others, that was the point of my statements. I didn't say it didn't. I have repeatedly pointed to the fact that, even given heavy adamantine armour, 4+ points of damage dealt will ensure the wearer suffers 1+ point of damage (depending on what the damage roll ultimately was). See above... Again, what type of armor is it, etc? My understanding of DR 3/- is that the individual enjoying this benefit will always subtract 3 points of damage from every damage die rolled against him. Hence, once again, if someone does 4 points of damage to said person... He actually only suffers 1 point of damage. Is this incorrect? Aye, it would be incorrect and because DR X/- works differently to the other 'named examples,' ie DR 10/magic etc. DR X/- is precisely so potent because it ignores all of the damage, even with subsequent damage, it's always going to ignore damage. No weapon ignores the damage reduction, so despite a non-magical silver weapon dealing 15 damage and thus dealing 5 damage because of DR 10/magic and silver, DR X/- is going to ignore all of that damage, hence why no weapon negates the damage reduction. DR X/- is going to ignore all damage where X is the variable. So, DR 3/- is going to ignore 3 points of damage at the first attack and subsequent damage variables. No, ES, in fact... I have asked more questions and did so in the spirit of getting this debate past guess-work and assumption. Feel free to continue harping on my Menzoberranzan example, but I think the majority of my posts speak for themselves. ... You were the one who was always harping on the Menzoberranzan example. I asked why it was relevant. And Derren S and I worked from solid facts without making assumptions, the examples are quite clear from our previous posts. That would help, along with the other data I requested. I'd do that, and because you're 'taking care of the SEALs' (playing Devil's advocate, etc), also post the SEALs' side of the discussion. That's less than helpful, though, given that we have yet to identify what the SEALs' actual enemy would be. In other words, by not identifying concrete basics (X fighters, Y mages, Z clerics, etc.), we can't really establish what kind of magic the drow would have and how much of it would be available. Wait, did you even bother to read the points I made why magic stops tech? If you haven't, please do so then we'll talk about it being less than helpful. I specified in my example on previous pages that a wizard and cleric (only two individuals) at 20th level have magic that will trump tech. I understand, but I would point to the fact that, just as I am not excited about dramatized, inappropriate movie depictions for the SEALs, neither would you be favorable toward the novelized depiction of drow. Or are you prepared to take a handicap and accept the possibility that one of your fighters might schew the results by trying to "pull a Dinin" on one of your wizards... or "pull a Berg'inyon" and run-off on the remainder of the force if it starts looking bad? See what I'm getting at? ;) I don't mind novelised depiction of drow, since it gives an example of what they (the lower-levelled ones) can do; the pertinent point here remains, it was to give an example of what they can do, an example. And it's drow, of course they'll pull a Dinin or Berg'inyon, in fact, everyone'll be happy if they did ;). Your answer does not reconcile with the rules. If the - in DR X/- meant that nothing can affect the individual endowed with DR regardless of the damage rolled, then the number would be unnecessary! Clearly, the number shows that the individual resists only that amount of damage listed (1, 2, or 3, depending on the armour), and that any damage above and beyond that would be subtracted normally from their HP. What am I missing here? Exactly. That's exactly what the rules say. No weapon at all is going to negate the DR. It's spelt out quite clearly in the SRD. Word that rhymes with pit for tat, my friend. (edit: I did not intend to use vulgar language here; apparently, the first word in that commonly used phrase is equated to popular vernacular for "nipple") Except that you were the one who called me (implied that I was) smug and called me arrogant. I merely called your claims mistaken or that you misunderstood or don't go jumping to incorrect conclusions, I never attacked you personally, merely said that your assumptions were false or misleading. So, again, please don't mischaracterise or misrepresent me and don't keep insulting me, it doesn't look good for you. And keep the insults (which is what you've been doing) to a minimum. Please don't assume people lie. I invite you to look at DR again for yourself. I've been looking at it for a while now. What happens when an individual who has DR 5/magic receives 6 points of non-magical damage? What happens when someone with DR 10/magic and silver receives 11 points of non-magical, non-silver damage? Both my examples (which you've reiterated) are different to DR X/- (which I've actually spelt out for you, go reread my previous responses). They actually give you an idea of what overcomes the DR regardless of whether or not you have the appropriate damage-dealer. In the case of DR 5/magic, it's going to deal 1 point of damage. In the case of DR 10/magic and silver, it's going to deal 1 point of damage. In the case of DR 3/-, it's always going to ignore the 3 points of damage, regardless of how or when it inflicts the damage. You will also need to hit the AC to be able to penetrate the armor. You can't not penetrate AC to deal damage to the individual. I've always argued that with protection conferred by enchantments this is going to render the wearer effectively immune. I haven't said that with just adamantine will it make the drow immune. What I have said is that steel or other unenchanted weapons isn't going to penetrate adamantine or will have a hard time doing so, especially heavy armor made from adamantine. If there is any confusion on DR, I'll help clarify. Thanks for doing that, but it seems you are confused and mistaken yourself. DR X/ - means that you have DR to ALL weapons, and no individual thing overcomes it. DR "-" does not make you immune to everything, nor would it negate all the damage derived from bullets. Maybe I misunderstand ES's remarks, but this was the impression I felt you were giving. Since my words aren't taken at first value, which is unfortunate considering they are what the D&D rules actually say, I'll post this. When a damage reduction entry has a dash (-) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-07-08, 09:39 PM	What I think That Master LK meant is that regardless of what a Drow favors, is unpractical that a Drow would have that kind of armor since it is a "pratrol party" not a "raiding party" or a "anti SEALs party", therefore they need light armor (otherwise they'll suffer an armor check penalty that they don't want) to explore those areas there the enemy (whether is SEALs monters or other drow) can be potencially hidden. That's called "noise disipline" The same reason Soldiers don't(or shouldn't) use reflective glasses or light up a cigarrette in the dark and they walk/run to whoever they need to talk to instead of yelling. Does it make sense:) ? By arbitrarily denying the drow 'access' to heavy armor is illogical, which is precisely what LK has done - considering that that drow party would, especially at 20th level, include many iconic roles (ie wizard, cleric, etc) and most (I'm not going to say all) armors and arms. At 20th level, they wouldn't exactly care if have an armor check penalty or penalty to hiding, etc. And even if they did it's not going to matter much, at 20th level, they're still going to hide and sneak very well. Drow at lower levels wearing heavy armor is possibly another matter, but is certainly not an issue at the higher levels, and even at the lower levels it wouldn't matter too much anyway; the drow patrol party was tangential and irrelevant to main discussion, so you can't argue from that particular perspective. Now, I'm really trying to be inpratial here (I don't care either way it goes) I have a suggetion for both sides, how about you sir/ma'am build lv 20 "Pratrol party" and Master Karsus (or any one that has the books) builds an Lv 20 SEAL team, give it to an inpartial party and/or trade the stats with eachother and DUKE IT OUT separately. I've been arguing this and for this for a while now. You'll have to refresh my memory then, since I have no idea what points you're referring to. You were referring to bringing fighter jets etc into the scenario, which was illogical. As to the whole support issue drawing attention, so? What does that have to do with anything? Really, this whole questions started out as a Drow warrior versus a SEAL (whom I'm presuming represent the pinnacle of soldierliness to the OP, I'd have gone SAS or SF myself, but that's neither here nor there) to see who would come out on top in a relatively fair one on one fight. Do we really want to that single SEAL to have the inability to fire his or her weapons or have his or her equipment not functioning? Because it's precisely going in that direction, especially since the SEALs' equipment and other tech won't work. Yes, before you even say it, I know its moved beyond that, but what I want to know is how bringing a spellcaster or two, who are essentially the equivalent of walking artillery batteries, even remotely makes sense in the context of this discussion? This isn't a question of who's society, magic, equipment, weaponry, or whatever is better, its a question of pinnacle of Drow versus the pinnacle of human and seeing who comes out on top. If we reduce this to a battle of equipment and spells, the point of the exercise just gets lost completely, at least in my opinion. It was changed to have the SEALs' arms and equipment functioning again, by me. It was also reasonable for magic to be introduced, especially considering that they were/are in Faerun. Did you even bother to read my points addressing why I said magic and magic wielders were appropriate? If you didn't, please do. Oh, yeah, almost forgot, the Intelligence modifier of +2 for the drow only results in a modifier increase of +1, which translates to a +5% bonus to checks, which isn't that impressive if you really think about it. Guess I didn't word that quite precisely enough. Wait? What have you been smoking? It's simple maths. A drow with an Int of 12 (base Int 10+2) has an Int modifier of +1, while the drow with an Int of 16 (base Int 14+2) has an Int modifier of +3. A drow with an Int of 13 (base Int 11+2) has an Int modifier of +1 while the drow with a Int of 17 (base Int 15+2) has an Int modifier of +3. Modifiers advance at every even level, so every two levels, ie 10 = 0, 12 = 1, 14 = 2, etc. Every odd level stays the same as the previous even level increase. How did you get a modifier increase of +1?...it makes no sense at all. It's exactly as it says it is, an Int bonus of +2, how'd you get +1 from that?
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-07-08, 09:49 PM	well a int int +2 give you a modifieer of +1
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-07-08, 10:04 PM	How does that work? It's not a fixed Int score like 10 or 16, its Int +2. How does it become a modifier of +1? It doesn't make sense.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-07-08, 10:38 PM	ok my bad, it will increase your modifier +1
Derren S. 01-08-08, 04:50 AM	Conversely, though, I would really appreciate that we expand on this topic by actually dealing with concrete numbers: how many fighters, how many wizards, how many clerics, how many rogues, etc., do the drow have, what are their attributes, and what items do they have? I see Derren is already moving in that direction. When I made my comparisation I assumed a small party of lvl seals (5-6 members) against an equally large party of ECL 20 drow fighters. No wizards or clerics. So all magically effects must come from (stock) items or potions. Equipment may be varied. I assumed that the seals would be equipped with M4 or M16 (which are better than M4s) + sidearm, maybe one seal with a heavy MG. All have some grenades and maybe even a LAW. I haven't thought much about what equipment the drow would have except that it should be level appropriate and melee orientated. Another thing, I don't understand the fascination with adamantine. Even if the drow all wear heavy armor adamantine would only subtract 3 points of damage form every attack. Considering that the seals have a base damage of 2d8 at least, possibly as high as 4d8, I don't think that this will have a big effect.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-08-08, 06:26 AM	ok my bad, it will increase your modifier +1 That still doesn't make sense at all. Why would it be +1 when it quite clearly is +2? In case you missed it, A drow with an Int of 12 (base Int 10+2) has an Int modifier of +1, while the drow with an Int of 16 (base Int 14+2) has an Int modifier of +3. A drow with an Int of 13 (base Int 11+2) has an Int modifier of +1 while the drow with a Int of 17 (base Int 15+2) has an Int modifier of +3. Modifiers advance at every even level, so every two levels, ie 10 = 0, 12 = 1, 14 = 2, etc. Every odd level stays the same as the previous even level increase. How did you get a modifier increase of +1?...it makes no sense at all. Another thing, I don't understand the fascination with adamantine. Even if the drow all wear heavy armor adamantine would only subtract 3 points of damage form every attack. Considering that the seals have a base damage of 2d8 at least, possibly as high as 4d8, I don't think that this will have a big effect. Consider the benefits of adamantine and why it is so useful. The point was that the drow would have access to appropriate resources of the relevant level. Adamantine is a resource that the drow would be quite happy to use or exploit as seen fit. With DR 3/-, it's going to negate the 3 points of damage every time, so you're essentially having to delete 3 points each time from every hit, even within the same damage type. That's why DR X/- is so potent, and why it's above and beyond DR 10/magic et al. Also, because adamantine is so hard, it's going to be difficult to sunder, etc. It's going to be difficult to shoot through, if we're going to argue 'realism.' The armor check penalty of adamantine armor is always lessened by 1. Adamantine weapons ignore hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects; ignoring hardness less than 20. Weapons made from adamantine wielded by drow is going to sunder the guns of the SEALs. Enchanted adamantine is going to confer even more benefits.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-08-08, 07:00 AM	a +2 in anAbility Score gives you a +1 in the MODEFIER Read Pg 7 of the PHB and look at table 1-1 in pg 8
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-08-08, 07:13 AM	You are mistaken and you can't phrase it like that. You can't look at it that way. A +2 to an Int of 14 gives you an Int modifier of +3, while a +2 to an Int 15 still gives you a modifier of +3. Still +2s but the modifiers remain the same. Again, +2 is not a hard stat like 10 or 16. A +2 can give you a variable modifier depending on where it's put in the ability score.
Derren S. 01-08-08, 07:15 AM	Consider the benefits of adamantine and why it is so useful. The point was that the drow would have access to appropriate resources of the relevant level. Adamantine is a resource that the drow would be quite happy to use or exploit as seen fit. With DR 3/-, it's going to negate the 3 points of damage every time, so you're essentially having to delete 3 points each time from every hit, even within the same damage type. That's why DR X/- is so potent, and why it's above and beyond DR 10/magic et al. Also, because adamantine is so hard, it's going to be difficult to sunder, etc. It's going to be difficult to shoot through, if we're going to argue 'realism.' The armor check penalty of adamantine armor is always lessened by 1. Adamantine weapons ignore hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects; ignoring hardness less than 20. Weapons made from adamantine wielded by drow is going to sunder the guns of the SEALs. Enchanted adamantine is going to confer even more benefits. DR 3/- is nice but the seals rely more on few heavy hits than on many weak hits (High base damage, unenchanted attack bonus vs. enchanted armor). DR is still useful in this case but not so much that it becomes a decisive factor imo. In this specific case DR 10/magic would be much better as DR 3/- as the entire point is that the seals do not have magic. "Shooting through armor" is not covered by D&D rules (technically even a wooden Tower Shield would prevent the seals from attacking. I just used a adamantine one to prevent further arguments about that issue) and I don't think the seals have any weapon which would be capable to sunder the drows equipment anyway. The Drow on the other hand could easily sunder the seals equipment even without adamantine weapons. Adamantine does give the drow an additional advantage, just not a very big one.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-08-08, 07:30 AM	You still get a Modifier increase of +1, look if you ha 1 14 is a + 2 in the modifier, if you get and +2 in that ability it becomes a 16 (+3) right? now in case of a 15 that is also a +2 in the modifier, and get an a ability increase of +2 it gives you a a 17 and that gives you an +3 in your modifier right? so therefore an +2 in your ability gives you a +1 in your modifier (BTW (1)Im not wrong if I go by the book, (2)I can phrase it any way I want (english impared ,read the warning tag...) and (3)my english can't be that bad
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-08-08, 07:30 AM	Example 20th level drow fighter. If using NPC wealth, 220,000 gp. If using PC wealth, 760,000 gp. Str 24, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 9, Cha 10 Equipment: greater piwafwi (+5 to hide and fire resistance 5), +5 adamantine defending longsword, +5 adamantine longsword of wounding, +5 adamantine drow chainmail of silent moves and shadow, cloak of major displacement, belt of giant's strength +6, boots of teleportation, bracers of armor +5, amulet of health +6, +3 hand crossbow, poisoned darts, ring of protection +5, manual of bodily health +5, manual of gainful exercise +5, dust of disappearance, bag of holding. 18 feats; example feats-Stealthy, Two-Weapon Fighting chain, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative, Track, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization. Hit Points: 20d10+100 (210 hp) AC: 35 (36 with Dodge, 45 with Improved Combat Expertise, 51 with defending). DR: 2/-. Attack: +34/+29/+24/+19; damage (1d8+16 + wounding), can Power Attack up to base attack bonus, ie 20 more points of damage. Spell-Like Abilities: can use globe of darkness once per day Others: can use dust of disappearance to render itself invisible as greater invisibility;, may teleport up to 3/day. If using NPC wealth feel free to edit the above.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-08-08, 07:33 AM	I agree, is FAR more likely to fing a Drow in a patrol wearing a studded leather with enchanted DR than an adamantine armor
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-08-08, 07:35 AM	You still get a Modifier increase of +1, look if you ha 1 14 is a + 2 in the modifier, if you get and +2 in that ability it becomes a 16 (+3) right? now in case of a 15 that is also a +2 in the modifier, and get an a ability increase of +2 it gives you a a 17 and that gives you an +3 in your modifier right? so therefore an +2 in your ability gives you a +1 in your modifier (BTW (1)Im not wrong if I go by the book, (2)I can phrase it any way I want (english impared ,read the warning tag...) and (3)my english can't be that bad You can't say it is an Int modifier of +1 since what one needs to be doing is not go by the bonus Int of +2, but by the modified ability score. Hence an Int 16 would become a modifier of +3 and an Int 12 would become a modifier of +1. The modifier has changed based on the ability score in question, you can't say that it has been modified by +1 because that's not true and it's wrong. What you have done is add +2 to the (base) ability score. If it were always +2 = +1, then Int 12 and Int 13 would result in different Int modifiers and that's simply not true; you need to think it through because the books don't say that (what you imply it says). I agree, is FAR more likely to fing a Drow in a patrol wearing a studded leather with enchanted DR than an adamantine armor Appropriate gear for 20th level.
Derren S. 01-08-08, 07:36 AM	I agree, is FAR more likely to fing a Drow in a patrol wearing a studded leather with enchanted DR than an adamantine armor I am not so sure about that. In the Underdark adamantine might be more readily available as good leather.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-08-08, 07:38 AM	You can't say it is an Int modifier of +1 since what one needs to be doing is not go by the bonus Int of +2, but by the modified ability score. Hence an Int 16 would become a modifier of +3 and an Int 12 would become a modifier of +1. The modifier has changed based on the ability score in question, you can't say that it has been modified by +1 because that's not true and it's wrong. What you have done is add +2 to the (base) ability score. If it were always +2 = +1, then Int 12 and Int 13 would result in different Int modifiers and that's simply not true; you need to think it through because the books don't say that (what you imply it says). Appropriate gear for 20th level. ...Sure
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-08-08, 07:41 AM	I am not so sure about that. In the Underdark adamantine might be more readily available as good leather. And adamantine is apparently only found in the Underdark. It supposedly crumbles to dust in sunlight. ...Sure *sigh* *more sighing* Any relevant discourse or rebuttal?
Derren S. 01-08-08, 07:46 AM	And adamantine is apparently only found in the Underdark. It supposedly crumbles to dust in sunlight. That was 2nd Edition.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-08-08, 07:48 AM	I see, good to know. Oh, almost forgot, the drow in question may have access to (a) minor artifact/s or even (a) major artifact/s.
Derren S. 01-08-08, 07:57 AM	Oh, almost forgot, the drow in question may have access to (a) minor artifact/s or even (a) major artifact/s. Lets not overdo it. No artifacts, just 20th level gear (Don't know if PC or NPC wealth).
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-08-08, 07:58 AM	DR 3/- is nice but the seals rely more on few heavy hits than on many weak hits (High base damage, unenchanted attack bonus vs. enchanted armor). DR is still useful in this case but not so much that it becomes a decisive factor imo. In this specific case DR 10/magic would be much better as DR 3/- as the entire point is that the seals do not have magic. Well, this assuming that the SEALs actually deal enough damage to 'induce' the DR into not taking effect. With the given AC of the drow, the SEALs wouldn't be able to hit the drow, let alone score damage or cause enough damage to matter. Also, with the DR with the attached magic variable, be careful, people may cry foul! (I'm being very tongue in cheek here, but the point remains). "Shooting through armor" is not covered by D&D rules (technically even a wooden Tower Shield would prevent the seals from attacking. I just used a adamantine one to prevent further arguments about that issue) and I don't think the seals have any weapon which would be capable to sunder the drows equipment anyway. The Drow on the other hand could easily sunder the seals equipment even without adamantine weapons. You would need to hit AC first to even begin to contemplate causing damage. That was a point I was trying to make. That the adamantine coupled with protective enchantments and associated feats is going to stop most attempts at penetrating it or dealing damage to the wearer. Adamantine just provides more advantageous variables to the situation. Adamantine does give the drow an additional advantage, just not a very big one. It's going to give more benefits than mithral, cold iron, silver or other special materials. It's also going to be better than just stand-alone enchanted armor. Lets not overdo it. No artifacts, just 20th level gear (Don't know if PC or NPC wealth). People may cry foul with exceptional loudness at that (I'm, and was, being very tongue in cheek there and by my statement that the drow may have artifacts). I would like to finish this communication by saying: "Sword chucks, yo!"
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-08-08, 08:14 AM	And adamantine is apparently only found in the Underdark. It supposedly crumbles to dust in sunlight. *sigh* *more sighing* Any relevant discourse or rebuttal? Um, no. That little discution was a total waste of my time because A) it was off topic and B)either i'm to stupid to make myself underdtood or you are just pulling my leg...
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-08-08, 08:18 AM	Um, no. That little discution was a total waste of my time because A) it was off topic and B)either i'm to stupid to make myself underdtood or you are just pulling my leg... Arguing about the drow's Int bonus of +2 is not a waste of your time :). It's relevant because it affects the drow, so it's relevant to the discussion at hand. And you're not stupid, don't feel that way, and don't (ever) let others make you feel stupid :). Step back for a minute and consider what I have posted and what results from that Int bonus, consider also that the Int modifier of the ability score is always going to be different depending on the ability score in question.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-08-08, 08:20 AM	I am not so sure about that. In the Underdark adamantine might be more readily available as good leather. True, I meant to say light(er) armor, studded leather was the first light armor that crossed my mind. :D
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-08-08, 08:23 AM	But the example adamantine armor would be an appropriate resource for the level. And hilarity ensures (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/Draconis145321/1190678269192.jpg)
Philalexandros 01-08-08, 08:48 AM	I wasn't debating from data posted on the page we were discussing on, but the pages before that page. Then it's odd that you chose to do so. :confused: However, the point remains that simplified terminology is always going to be easier to understand than specific terms, especially given the niche value of the terminology. ES, no offense... but your terminology isn't simplified; it's simply incorrect. Using terms like "sweeper team" don't make the subject simpler... they simply provide inappropriate data to the discussion. For the moment, take me as someone who doesn't understand the SEALs at all (I'm familiar with SEALs and know what they can do, but this is for the benefit of all), what would you suggest as 'realistic'? We already know that SEALs wouldn't team in 40 4-man squads and we know that the SEALs wouldn't have fighter jets, orbital bombardment platforms, etc, on stand-by. As I said earlier: 8-man squads, or, more appropriately, 16-man platoons. Uh, you implied that I came off as smug and then backed it up by saying it was your opinion. Okay. Once more, I asked you if that was the case. I have since stated more than once that I accepted your answer (which was "no"). For the record, while I no longer think you're smug, I do think you find it very hard to let go of arguments. But that's just an opinion, and may very well have no bearing on reality. My absolute statement involved the actual relevancy of the subtopic to the discussion at hand. There's a difference. My 'absolute' statement involved 20th level SEALs versus 20th level drow. There's a difference. ES, I really don't see the point of arguing this any further. I made a statement in which I indicated what I believed would be the winning side in a side-topic. Your response, which I found ironic clearly had nothing to do with topic relevance; you specifically stated "You are absolutely mistaken and obviously biased in your assessment of a certain SEALs victory". There was no qualification about relevancy or what have you; furthermore, you were responding to a statement that was specifically about said sub-topic rather the main topic. Arguing that it was about something else is disingenuous, at best. Let's please drop this, OK? Good. I would like that too. I'll be sure to provide actual numbers - but actually read what I written beforehand, I have already written that it may include 2 drow parties comprised of the iconic roles, I've said this for a while now. I can provide ability scores and items carried and wielded by the drow. Then let's please start working from that angle, as opposed to indeterminate numbers and classes. :) What do the SEALs bring? I don't have the d20 Modern book on me, so I will require some help: 1) 16-man SEAL element 2) 2x sniper rifles 3) 1x heavy machinegun; 1x light machinegun 4) 2x grenade launchers 5) 1x portable anti-tank weapon 6) 16x assault rifles with scopes, flashlights, infrared pointers, and thermal imagery as part of the modular package 7) Level IV body armour and helmet 8) Portable radio communications devices (hands free) 9) PELTOR headsets (for radios; also act as noise suppressors--this is actually, pretty cool... you can hear someone talking just fine, but it registers and suppresses high-decibel effects) 10) Close-combat weapon (knife) 11) Personal sidearm with attached flashlight (could be 9mm, .45, or .50 cal) 12) Night-vision devices and/or thermal optics 13) At least 4x Claymore mines 14) 2x fragmentation, smoke, and flash-bang grenades per individual 15) Four vehicles w/ a light machinegun and either a .50 caliber machinegun or an automatic grenade launcher on gun mounts; no more than 35 gallons of additional fuel. Depending on the mission at hand, they may or may not have SCUBA apparatus as part of their load-out. They're already posted on the other pages. So using them should not be an issue then? :) See how easier it is to be clear, and yes, I understood you the first time, but wanted you to be clear for the benefit of others, that was the point of my statements. Look, no offense ES... but notice how no one else seemingly had any issue understanding what I was trying to say? Aye, it would be incorrect and because DR X/- works differently to the other 'named examples,' ie DR 10/magic etc. DR X/- is precisely so potent because it ignores all of the damage, even with subsequent damage, it's always going to ignore damage. No weapon ignores the damage reduction, so despite a non-magical silver weapon dealing 15 damage and thus dealing 5 damage because of DR 10/magic and silver, DR X/- is going to ignore all of that damage, hence why no weapon negates the damage reduction. DR X/- is going to ignore all damage where X is the variable. So, DR 3/- is going to ignore 3 points of damage at the first attack and subsequent damage variables. ES, I'm so happy to see that, after all this time--and despite your numerous arguments to the contrary--we agreed all along where DR was concerned. Let's go back and re-visit my posts again, shall we? "The fact remains that D&D in no way points at any rule wherein bronze, stone, wooden, iron, steel, etc., weapons cannot affect an individual wearing adamantine armour." "If steel weapons can and do injure individuals wearing Adamantine armour, I assure you that weapons that defeat steel can and would injure individuals wearing Adamantine armour." You said: "... ANY individual wielding a mundane weapon could potentially harm a drow wearing adamantine armour. ... a longsword (1d8 damage) that strikes a drow wearing adamantine plate for 8 damage would in fact inflict 5 points of damage on said drow." And finally, following post after post wherein you insisted on telling me I either needed to learn the rules or stop lying... You say: "So, DR 3/- is going to ignore 3 points of damage at the first attack and subsequent damage variables." Gosh, well that sounds familiar! So, once more, ES. A non-adamantine longsword that rolls 8 points of damage against someone with DR 3/- will, per your OWN WORDS, inflict 5 points of damage. ... I'm not going to continue this side-conversation. I've stated myself clearly and succinctly. I'd do that, and because you're 'taking care of the SEALs' (playing Devil's advocate, etc), also post the SEALs' side of the discussion. The SEAL's side is actually remarkable simple, IMHO. Unfortunately, I don't have a 20d Modern book handy with me. :( Wait, did you even bother to read the points I made why magic stops tech? If you haven't, please do so then we'll talk about it being less than helpful. I specified in my example on previous pages that a wizard and cleric (only two individuals) at 20th level have magic that will trump tech. ES, I intend you no insult here, but please pay attention and address my posts as they are written--not the message you think they are trying to convey. I specifically stated we need to know how many of each there would be in order to determine amounts and type of magic--not that it was less than helpful. I don't mind novelised depiction of drow, since it gives an example of what they (the lower-levelled ones) can do; the pertinent point here remains, it was to give an example of what they can do, an example. It's a bad example and conducive to poor assumptions regarding likely tactics. Plain and simple. And it's drow, of course they'll pull a Dinin or Berg'inyon, in fact, everyone'll be happy if they did ;). The point being this: would you feel that it would be conducive to a good simulation in determining "who is more likely to win" if someone from the other side argued that X percentage of your force turn on their fellows or otherwise act in a way likely to skew the outcome? Exactly. That's exactly what the rules say. No weapon at all is going to negate the DR. It's spelt out quite clearly in the SRD. Well, considering I never said anything would negate DR, I'm not sure where the issue lies. Please, go back and find a single example wherein I advocated anything other than the fact that any damage roll of 4 or more against DR 3/- inflicts 1+ points of damage. Except that you were the one who called me (implied that I was) smug and called me arrogant. I didn't call you anything, ES. I asked you if that was the case. I could ask you if you had $20 I could borrow from you, but that doesn't mean I possess detailed knowledge of your financial status. So, again, please don't mischaracterise or misrepresent me and don't keep insulting me, it doesn't look good for you. And keep the insults (which is what you've been doing) to a minimum. Man, something about pots and kettles just keeps nagging at me. For the life of me, though... ;) I've been looking at it for a while now. I think we've finally arrived at the conclusion that you knew how it worked... and I knew how it worked... but for whatever reason you didn't think that I knew how it worked. That's the only thing I could arrive at after seeing your last DR 3/- related post, above. In the case of DR 5/magic, it's going to deal 1 point of damage. In the case of DR 10/magic and silver, it's going to deal 1 point of damage. So, just to reiterate: when adamantine-derived DR 3/- is dealt 4 points of non-adamantine damage, the wearer of adamantine armour suffers 1 point of damage. In the case of DR 3/-, it's always going to ignore the 3 points of damage, regardless of how or when it inflicts the damage. Still on the same page, then! Excellent. You will also need to hit the AC to be able to penetrate the armor. That's a given... I never argued otherwise. I've always argued that with protection conferred by enchantments this is going to render the wearer effectively immune. I haven't said that with just adamantine will it make the drow immune. I'm afraid that either that hasn't been the case, or you simply haven't been posting in a way that reflects your sentiment: "Adamantine and other protective enchantments, not magic, would ensure that the bullets do not penetrate." 'Ensure' seems a pretty absolute term given that adamantine would prevent only a certain portion of the damage rolled. "I and others have already given reasons why adamantine would fortify and protect the drow to nullify bullets and the like." 'Nullify' is also an interesting term to use. Conversely, my examples have been rather straightforward: I have, on more than one occassion, provided simple scenarios wherein a standard weapon inflicts a certain amount of damage and is mitigated by the automatic benefit of DR 3/-. What I have said is that steel or other unenchanted weapons isn't going to penetrate adamantine or will have a hard time doing so, especially heavy armor made from adamantine. No, not really. You offered questionable terminology and either misunderstood or didn't notice basic mathematic examples. That, in and of itself is all well and good (it's a friendly forum, after all)... but the fact that you have doggedly insisted on pawning off ignorance or falsehood on others while doing such a consistently bad job of reading posts (things as simple as "I do 8 points of damage; your DR 3/- reduces that to 5") has made this discussion incredibly frustrating. Thanks for doing that, but it seems you are confused and mistaken yourself. No; no he wasn't. And neither was Derren. I found it very telling that both of these individuals said the same thing I've been saying all along (subtract 3 points of damage from the total rolled); heck,one of them even addressed you directly, and you tried to tell him that he was confused as well. Finally, I would like a clarification on what Stigger brought up. Drow get a +2LA. That means that the drow in question should actually have 18th levels if they are to be equivalent to 20th level characters. Do we agree on this? More to follow... Cheers, P.
Philalexandros 01-08-08, 08:52 AM	Example 20th level drow fighter. If using NPC wealth, 220,000 gp. If using PC wealth, 760,000 gp. Str 24, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 9, Cha 10 Equipment: greater piwafwi (+5 to hide and fire resistance 5), +5 adamantine defending longsword, +5 adamantine longsword of wounding, +5 adamantine drow chainmail of silent moves and shadow, cloak of major displacement, belt of giant's strength +6, boots of teleportation, bracers of armor +5, amulet of health +6, +3 hand crossbow, poisoned darts, ring of protection +5, manual of bodily health +5, manual of gainful exercise +5, dust of disappearance, bag of holding. 18 feats; example feats-Stealthy, Two-Weapon Fighting chain, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative, Track, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization. Hit Points: 20d10+100 (210 hp) AC: 35 (36 with Dodge, 45 with Improved Combat Expertise, 51 with defending). DR: 2/-. Attack: +34/+29/+24/+19; damage (1d8+16 + wounding), can Power Attack up to base attack bonus, ie 20 more points of damage. Spell-Like Abilities: can use globe of darkness once per day Others: can use dust of disappearance to render itself invisible as greater invisibility;, may teleport up to 3/day. If using NPC wealth feel free to edit the above. Excellent build! I would only suggest one thing: lower him to 18th level, so as to make him a proper 20th level character. :) I'll wrack my brain to try to come up with a good, 20th level SEAL counterpart. Not having the d20 Modern book with me, would it be appropriate to use the SRD fighter as a basis for a SEAL? Also, here's a question directed to anyone: Given that modern body armor (which covers roughly the same areas as a breastplate and a helmet) can defeat munitions far more capable of armour penetration than your average melee weapon, what DR capability should be attributed to it? Does d20 modern give a rating for this?
Derren S. 01-08-08, 09:28 AM	Given that modern body armor (which covers roughly the same areas as a breastplate and a helmet) can defeat munitions far more capable of armour penetration than your average melee weapon, what DR capability should be attributed to it? Does d20 modern give a rating for this? None. Imo the seals would wear Tactical vests. +6 AC +2 Max Dex -5 check penalty, 25 ft speed. No DR. In the real world kevlar protects against bullets but against knives it is a lot less protective.
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 09:30 AM	Why would you want to bring up a facetious point to a discussion though? And I was poking fun at you. Even with the spell cast, the drow are too intelligent to run blindly at the SEALs. That'd still be an extremely stupid tactic. Yes, with your great example of facetious statements, it really helped! To save time, the point was for Warnings benifit in the instance. I hadn't intended in becoming so embroiled in this, but as I evidently am, that is why I included the comment at all. :P And I don't need to be told that the Drow would never run in blindly. I think I have been playing the game long enough, and played the drow enough when it began, to at least know that small fact regarding them. :P -RW
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 09:39 AM	Thanks for doing that, but it seems you are confused and mistaken yourself. Since my words aren't taken at first value, which is unfortunate considering they are what the D&D rules actually say, I'll post this. lol, didn't I just say no weapon overcame the DR X/ -? I Was pointing out more specifically though, as it seemed that you were suggesting DR X/ - implied that ALL damage was negated, that in truth "X" will always be substituted by a number, and only that number will be subtracted from the damage dealt. So with DR 5/ -, a person sustaining 15 points of damage from a weapon, would instead take only 10 points of damage. Note that Spells are not effected by DR, unless they replicate weapon damage. IE: Wall of Blades. And that is what I was getting at. No offense, but you seem to be arguing -- with me at least -- on points that don't seem to be in contention. I am not arguing against the Drow, to the contrary I am arguing form them, and even going so far as to say the debate should never have lasted so long given the overwhelming evidence in their favour. And judging by the former part of this post, I think you might have a handle on DR, so telling me I am mistaken or wrong is foolish. -RW P.S. Had you not edited out the middle part of my quoted post, you would be showing that what I was saying was more than in agreement with the SRD, and additionally was giving an example of what "X" might stand for.
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 09:55 AM	Ok, one more post here, just because -- and I'm sorry ES -- but you are wrong in arguing this point. The Ability score is +2 the Ability modifier is +1. A Drow with 10 Int + 2 Ability Score, now has a 12 Intelligence. A 10 Int has a ability modifier of +0, and 12 has a +1. Thus you can see exactly where the +1 modifier is coming into play. If the Drow had 13 int, which is a modifier of +1, and added the +2 Score adjustment to get an additional +1, the end result would be 15 int, and +2 modifier. The Math is correct, and those are the rules. An ability score bonus of +2 always confers an Ability modifier of +1. -RW
Warning 01-08-08, 10:41 AM	Something I would like to make clear to everyone. When you get into a fist fight let's say, do you think to yourself: "What's the statistics of his/her winning ratio? What is his/her bicep width in CM? How powerful is his/her punch in terms of a scale?". No? I had thought not. You just fight, correct? So why do any of you belive that Stats/Levels/Statistics mean anything in this concept battle? If they were ever to make a movie on this hypothetically, do you think it would be based from DnD stats? Can any of you tell me that Luke SkyWalker and DarthVader fought based on stats? Using dice is always chance, no matter how good/bad you actualy are. Using skill is always absolute no matter how good/bad you actualy are. I'd perfer it if we could see this concept battle in terms of logic, and not in terms of games. I understand this is a gaming site but, if any of you have seen the new Rock movie (it sucked), you would know stats mean nothing to simmulate a battle.
Rauric 01-08-08, 10:48 AM	Why do you care about AOs stats so much then? ;) I keed I keed. This isn't a really decent thread anymore to lurk in because you guys keep changing the paremeters of the conflict. Warning is right though. It really depends on the situation. What weapons both groups can use, and if they can use magic factors into everything. There are too many variables though. My 2 cents. Go on with the madness. :P
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 10:55 AM	How would you propose a concept fight in reality? Unless you think that Drow are real, then there is absolutely no other way to determine who would win other than by the stats. Also we are not talking about a street scrap, we are talking two groups of professionals combating one another. It is no different than comparing two Boxers, or MMA fighters. You can look at their fight record, and watch how they fight in a match, and from there draw conclusions as to who might win the majority of the time. For example, let us look at Rich franklin, and Anderson Silva. They have fought twice now, both times with the same result. His style and ability is simply far superior to that of Rich Franklin. Both on paper and in the ring, he wins. Now, looking at the Drow -- even going so far as to avoid stat numbers -- tactics and Magic available to them makes them far superior to ANY force comprised solely of mundane soldiers. Again, and I hope for the final time, if you are immune to your enemies weapons, and can instantly place yourself at their centre on a whim, how can you not hope to achieve victory? If your whole argument is that Drow aren't real, and the SEALs are, then fine, I don't think any of us were arguing to the contrary, but seriously, if you honestly want to debate this, at least pretend you are reading some of what we're saying. -RW
Warning 01-08-08, 11:02 AM	How would you propose a concept fight in reality? Unless you think that Drow are real, then there is absolutely no other way to determine who would win other than by the stats. Novels? Thanks. RAS made the Drow and he does not like to use the stats when creating a fight scene in his novels. This comming from the creator of your beloved so called "victor", I'd take it we can determine it quite well from prior knowlege. RW::eek: EB::ayyyy!:
Derren S. 01-08-08, 11:11 AM	And how would you compare this situation according to novels? I don't care what RAS said but novels are the absolute worst indicator of power in existence. The main character always wins except he is supposed to loose according to the plot. It doesn't matter who the enemy is. When you write a book about Sqeeky the one armed, one legged, blind goblin commoner then he can as main character defeat the whole US army when the plot wants him to do so.
Rauric 01-08-08, 11:14 AM	Novels? Thanks. RAS made the Drow and he does not like to use the stats when creating a fight scene in his novels. This comming from the creator of your beloved so called "victor", I'd take it we can determine it quite well from prior knowlege. RW::eek: EB::ayyyy!: Drow were created by people before RAS though. RAS just really brought them into the spotlight. This debate is like Superman Vs Batman though. Even Punisher VS. Silver Surfer. Is Ennis writing the Punisher Vs Surfer story? If so then Punny wins. He hates any superbeing so he will have Punny win no matter how ridiculous the situation. So if RAS is writing the story drow win, if Clancey is doing it SEALS win. ;)
Warning 01-08-08, 11:17 AM	And how would you compare this situation according to novels? I don't care what RAS said but novels are the absolute worst indicator of power in existence. The main character always wins except he is supposed to loose according to the plot. It doesn't matter who the enemy is. Awesome. So the next time you get into a fight, you make sure to have a pen and paper with you to caculate out the battle. I'm sure you will have the advantage.
Derren S. 01-08-08, 11:22 AM	Awesome. So the next time you get into a fight, you make sure to have a pen and paper with you to caculate out the battle. I'm sure you will have the advantage. And what would you do? Beat the other guy with a book? This is a completely fictional situation and to be able to discuss it we need a point of reference for both sides. The rules does offer us this point of reference. Novels don't.
Warning 01-08-08, 11:25 AM	And what would you do? Beat the other guy with a book? This is a completely fictional situation and to be able to discuss it we need a point of reference for both sides. The rules does offer us this point of reference. Novels don't. I'd use my better judgment to determine the outcome of the fight. Not statistics. Oh, by the way, I'd rather read a book on how someone fights than look at the numbers of it. I don't know about you, but reading how someone threw a punch and where the punch landed on his opponent is much more intresting and detailed than what level the punch was and how much damage. If I read the Drows tatics in the novels, that gives me a better chance of beating them, than knowing there stats in terms of level.
Derren S. 01-08-08, 11:40 AM	I'd use my better judgment to determine the outcome of the fight. Not statistics. How do you judge something which does not exist and defies reality fighting against something no one here really knows its capabilities?
Warning 01-08-08, 11:41 AM	How do you judge something which does not exist and defies reality fighting against something no one here really knows its capabilities? I never been to a country outside of USA, but from knowelge of books/maps/TV, I can jugde how it might turn out?
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 11:45 AM	Two points of contention Warning. 1st, the Drow are the creation of Gary Gygax, not of RAS. 2nd, your arguments aren't based on better judgment, they are based on personal preference, and your duly noted hatred for the Drow. Whether or not you prefer to read a fight VS looking at the numbers is a grossly moot point here. Last time I check, the title of the thread was not "Does Extinction Beta, and his less creative alter Ego Warning think that the SEALs should win because he likes novels better than the game"? You came here to argue, so use the only method possible to definitively determine who would win. If we could field test this, I'm sure we would. however, we can not field test it, thus we must go with collected data on the matter. Perhaps if the competition were close, I might more keenly wish to hear you out, but you are shouting now about a fight IMO that is long won. The Drow by the rules can pop in an out unseen killing the SEALs on a whim. It doesn't matter how well trained you are if your foe can defy the common laws of Physics. -RW
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 11:47 AM	I never been to a country outside of USA, but from knowelge of books/maps/TV, I can jugde how it might turn out? You could yes. Afterall, if you'd not read something good about another place, what would make you want to go there? -RW
Warning 01-08-08, 11:53 AM	You know what. Feel special, you are arguing with someone who doesn't know the Stats, and taking advantage of it too. (Don't worry, so would I ;) ) Funny how you haven't said anything other to LK yet, he knows just as much as you do if not more on these stat topics and you have yet to prove anyone wrong concerning the people who know stats and are pro-seals.
ORC_Sinister 01-08-08, 12:31 PM	I'm very concerned that this thread is getting personal and aggressive. I'd like to point out that drow don't really exist so getting worked up to a point of frenzy about the matter really can't help your blood pressure. Also the code of conduct says we must stay on topic and not be harassing each other. So please return to a friendly on-topic tone.
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 12:45 PM	You know what. Feel special, you are arguing with someone who doesn't know the Stats, and taking advantage of it too. (Don't worry, so would I ;) ) Funny how you haven't said anything other to LK yet, he knows just as much as you do if not more on these stat topics and you have yet to prove anyone wrong concerning the people who know stats and are pro-seals. I am not trying to prove LK wrong though, nor do I care if anyone is a Pro SEAL. To Be honest, If anything, being a "Pro SEAL" would make your opinion biased and invalid. This is not saying that this is fact, but more likely than not. ;) As for taking advantage of the stats, I am doing nothing of the sort. I am presenting the information as needed, the fact you don't want to learn the information isn't my fault now is it? ;) If LK, or any other is stating something that contradicts me, by all means they are welcome to point it out, and prove me wrong. However I think I have played the rules "lawyer" long enough in most campaigns to know a least a smattering of them. :P -RW
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 01:07 PM	It's funny because your quote linked nicely to a prime example of how things would look should one Seal Fight a single Drow wizard. Minus the blood on one the wizards side. :P As for the accompanying list, I'm not sure what you hoped to prove with that, other than more people posted in favour of the SEALs than against them. That only proves that there is a personal preference one way. Had the favour been towards the Drow, I would state similarly, so before you go off on that tangent, I'll save you the typing time. :P Case and point I have yet to see anywhere in here, where one can show the SEALs tech, beating the Drows best magic. Until that happens, I am unsure how one could vouch for simple mundane humans. I am sorry if people don't want to hear that their precious Spec. Op. forces aren't able to counter everything with brute force, but it isn't my place to make people feel important. This situation is purely hypothetical, so I suppose you can draw comfort from that simple fact if you wish. Forgoing all advantages, sure, perhaps the Drow would lose sword v.s. gun, but that isn't the case, so continuing to play it as such is irrelevant. -RW P.S. Awww, you removed your post :P
Warning 01-08-08, 01:09 PM	It's funny because your quote linked nicely to a prime example of how things would look should one Seal Fight a single Drow wizard. Minus the blood on one the wizards side. :P As for the accompanying list, I'm not sure what you hoped to prove with that, other than more people posted in favour of the SEALs than against them. That only proves that there is a personal preference one way. Had the favour been towards the Drow, I would state similarly, so before you go off on that tangent, I'll save you the typing time. :P Case and point I have yet to see anywhere in here, where one can show the SEALs tech, beating the Drows best magic. Until that happens, I am unsure how one could vouch for simple mundane humans. I am sorry if people don't want to hear that their precious Spec. Op. forces aren't able to counter everything with brute force, but it isn't my place to make people feel important. This situation is purely hypothetical, so I suppose you can draw comfort from that simple fact if you wish. Forgoing all advantages, sure, perhaps the Drow would lose sword v.s. gun, but that isn't the case, so continuing to play it as such is irrelevant. -RW Doesn't matter. Sinister is being a jerk and deleted it. It wasn't hurting or bashing anyone. I love being treated like a child probally by somone younger than me. God forbid someone on ESPN would tell you what players are on what football team sinister.... http://youtube.com/watch?v=pwCtyX3MCPY&feature=related http://youtube.com/watch?v=zKwch-Z_oyE&feature=related http://youtube.com/watch?v=yWaKVuRoKCg&feature=related This was orignally posted that Wizard was replying too. And also I concluded who was in favor for Drow or Seal in no harming or insulting way. I also got my post deleted on ShadowDale for getting mad at people changing the topic. Yet there Sex topics opf 1900 numbers didn't get erased. Love the bash today. I'm sure now the Mods are going to take this personal and A: erase this B: Ban me C:Erase and Ban Me D: Leave me alone knowing full well I'm not doing anything agains't any WotC Rules EDIT: I just got a PM by him saying I can't change peoples quotes around. So that was my mistake. But you did not have to erase the whole post that took my 45 mins to conclude.
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 01:38 PM	You have to admit it is in extremely poor taste to do such a thing at least right? I mean for anyone coming late to the thread, they may very well read only your post, and assume the quoted portion is accurate. As this isn't the first time you edited a post, I think that removing the entire post should stand as a valid warning to cease and desist. -RW
Warning 01-08-08, 01:42 PM	You have to admit it is in extremely poor taste to do such a thing at least right? I mean for anyone coming late to the thread, they may very well read only your post, and assume the quoted portion is accurate. As this isn't the first time you edited a post, I think that removing the entire post should stand as a valid warning to cease and desist. -RW Quit sucking up. And I don't need your advice. Save your judgment for yourself. There was nothing wrong with the 2nd half of it. Anyway, those videos goes to show that guns are better than swords...even enchanted ones like the Paladin had. Enchanted bullets as the vampire had do better. So if the Drow wins, it's because of being pysically better, not better equipt. If you stack 2 equal opponents and give one a gun, one a sword, the gun will win hands down.
Sol_Odlanier 01-08-08, 01:56 PM	Warning, comparing stats is use in the 'real' world, Boxing is my favorite sport and before the fight stats are taking into account height, reach, age, record... now stats are a base line inumerable times the under dog wins (think they rolled 20s :D), but stats are still a good way to measure the fight before hand, Now I agree that the Drow haev the advantage(Terrain and Power), But I think the SEALs have a chance (in the dicipline and training) and even though the Drow ha a INT +2 the SEAL IMO on average smarter than Drow (this are not thugs)
Warning 01-08-08, 01:59 PM	Warning, comparing stats is use in the 'real' world, Boxing is my favorite sport and before the fight stats are taking into account height, reach, age, record... now stats are a base line inumerable times the under dog wins (think they rolled 20s :D), but stats are still a good way to measure the fight before hand, Now I agree that the Drow haev the advantage(Terrain and Power), But I think the SEALs have a chance (in the dicipline and training) and even though the Drow ha a INT +2 the SEAL IMO on average smarter than Drow (this are not thugs) ACTUALLY, I had stated in a recent post that if you had watched the newest rocky movie, they clearly show that stats are worthless when it comes down to the actual event.Oh, and it's a boxing movie, just for you Sol.
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 02:06 PM	I don't suck up kid, and you need advice from someone, as there clearly wasn't enough of it growing up for you evidently. If growing up is what you can really call your brief stint here since birth. I wasn't commenting on the latter part if you'll read again from your quoted post, only on the poor taste in which you choose to edit others posts in your quotes. As for the videos, they in no part showed the gun being superior to the sword. They showed a virtually indestructible being using the benefits his power granted him to win fights. Comparably he would be the Drow wizard and his opponents the SEALs. No matter how superior they might prove to be physically, the advantages of undeath, or in the case of the Drow magic, will always prove the better. AND AGAIN FOR YOU. The thread IS NOT about Guns VS Swords. If it was, I WOULD NOT be arguing with you about the Drow. However, it is about the Drow, ergo my comments on them. It DOESN'T matter what gun you use, when your foes are immune to bullets. It doesn't matter how well you see in the dark, if your opponents are invisible. It Doesn't matter how well you fortify you base, if they can simply teleport in whenever they wish. These are the simple things you over look time and again.... and Again, and AGAIN. I hear your argument, and I heard it the last forty odd times you said it. But if all you are going to do when I counter it is stare at me blankly, and then repeat yourself, you'd be better off calling it quits, and wandering off to convince someone with only the remotest iota of intelligence remaining. Sorry if you're frustrated here, but I have made many a valid point, and each time, as you have done in the past, you skip over it, and simply say the same thing again. Maybe in your family that us how a debate is held and resolved, but in the real world, you will receive only mockery from your opponent. :P -RW
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 02:07 PM	ACTUALLY, I had stated in a recent post that if you had watched the newest rocky movie, they clearly show that stats are worthless when it comes down to the actual event.Oh, and it's a boxing movie, just for you Sol. It's also fiction, a rocky movie, and Sylvester Stylone. IMO enough said. :P If you believe Rocky is realistic, you might want to reconvene in 5-10 years. -RW
Warning 01-08-08, 02:10 PM	It's also fiction, a rocky movie, and Sylvester Stylone. IMO enough said. :P If you believe Rocky is realistic, you might want to reconvene in 5-10 years. -RW Then what the hell is Drow? Not-fiction? Rofl? If you believe that a drow concept battle is more realistic than a boxing movie, you might want to reconvene in 5-10 years. -EB
Warning 01-08-08, 02:23 PM	I don't suck up kid, and you need advice from someone, as there clearly wasn't enough of it growing up for you evidently. If growing up is what you can really call your brief stint here since birth. You're like, a year older than me? Maybe only months?...kid? Nice math you've learned since growing up. Where did you go to school? I wasn't commenting on the latter part if you'll read again from your quoted post, only on the poor taste in which you choose to edit others posts in your quotes. Poor taste in my word choosing? Looks like it was good enough to get you to respond in muilti-paragraph form instead of putting me on ignore list...ouch? AND AGAIN FOR YOU. The thread IS NOT about Guns VS Swords. If it was, I WOULD NOT be arguing with you about the Drow. However, it is about the Drow, ergo my comments on them. I never said it was about sword vs guns, but proving that a a gun is stronger than sword in a battle situation such as this only shows that the Seals have a better advantage in terms of victory than that of a drow using a sword. So please understand, everything I post here is linked to my cause whether you choose to see it or not. That's up to your comprehension. It DOESN'T matter what gun you use, when your foes are immune to bullets. It doesn't matter how well you see in the dark, if your opponents are invisible. It Doesn't matter how well you fortify you base, if they can simply teleport in whenever they wish. Yes it doesn't matter if your enemies are immune to bullets. Good thing for the Seals the Drow are very much not immune to bullets. It doesn't matter how invisable you are to the naked eye when you can't fool a thermal vision or a cameras vision. You can teleport in whenever you wish, if you can find them. These are the simple things you over look time and again.... and Again, and AGAIN. There are simple things you get too arrogant about that you over look again...Again, and AGAIN. I hear your argument, and I heard it the last forty odd times you said it. But if all you are going to do when I counter it is stare at me blankly, and then repeat yourself, you'd be better off calling it quits, and wandering off to convince someone with only the remotest iota of intelligence remaining. If you need to take the time out of your day to convince someone like me that you are right AFTER 40 TIMES, then you are the one that needs to check up on your iota of intelligence remaining. Sorry if you're frustrated here, but I have made many a valid point, and each time, as you have done in the past, you skip over it, and simply say the same thing again. Maybe in your family that us how a debate is held and resolved, but in the real world, you will receive only mockery from your opponent. :P Sorry if you are frustrated right now, but you only made a valid point to your closed minded perspectives. Maybe you can't win a debate with the real world or hence your family. So you try 40+times with the same person to make up for it. You will recieve mockey only when you break the golden rule with me. :P
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 02:24 PM	lol, I left that open for you. Thought you deserved a moment of feeling special, amidst all the moments of foolishness you have chalked up since your arrival. Regardless, I have stated time and again, that the Drow are fictional. I have also said that the only way to show who would win is by the numbers, as that is the only form in which they exist. Now the problem with your logic -- one part of many -- Is that in order to have a fair unbiased fight, one must take the two sides in a base form. Not from hype via movies, nor from novels where the protagonist has to win for story. It is in this setting that one must compare the two forces arrayed. If you want some shoot em up film, with an American twist, in which guns blazing the SEALs run out from cover shooting blindly, and managing to score head shots on a whim, then by all means envision such an encounter. But as realistically as possible, we are comparing the two. And, in that form, the Drow WILL win. On paper you can guess which boxer will win, but in the ring anything can happen, from a slip, to a lucky punch. Here we are overlooking luck as best as possible, omitting such happenings as guns jamming, spells misfiring, magic failing, or grenades blowing up before thrown. When analyzed as thus, the Drow with comparable, if not superior ground tactics, coupled with Magic, really can't lose. If you honestly think that by watching Rocky you know Boxing, or any war movie and you are a veteran, you are sadly mistaken. Likewise, assuming how a race is portrayed in a novel is in fact how they legitimately are is equally foolish, as unless they are the protagonist to the story, their failures will ring out far louder than that of the "good guys". -RW
Warning 01-08-08, 02:29 PM	Think you missed the other post. Look above you buddy. ;) RW is responding to the Rocky post I believe for everyone who reads this and is confused. lol, I left that open for you. Thought you deserved a moment of feeling special, amidst all the moments of foolishness you have chalked up since your arrival. Of course. Because you like to give people a chance to feel good about themselves all the time without insulting their: intelligence/Family/Age. It is impossible for someone to prove you wrong in something you may have overlooked.
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 02:48 PM	You're like, a year older than me? Maybe only months?...kid? Given that I associate with people on average 10 years older than myself, opting to forgo the immaturity that runs rampant amongst those my age and younger, I hardly would count myself mentally anywhere near you. Ergo, I treat you the way you act. Poor taste in my word chosing? Looks like it was good enough to get you to respond in muilti-paragraph form instead of putting me on ignore list...ouch? Unfortunately for you I have no reason to have you blocked. Evidently you haven't noticed I enjoy running people down mentally, and it hardly matters to me whether or not it's a challenge. Blocking you would come across as more a victory for you than anything, and unlike some, you don't bother me enough to opt to ignore you. ;) I never said it was about sword vs guns, but proving that a a gun is stronger than sword in a battle situation such as this only shows that the Seals have a better advantage in terms of victory than that of a drow using a sword. So please understand, everything I post here is linked to my cause whether you choose to see it or not. That's up to your comprehension. Ah but you do. The fact you can't see that based on what I state is your folly, not mine. As I have said before, in an even mundane fight, with no magic, and only man with gun and man with sword, standing at 40 paces I am sure that 99.9% of the time, the man with the gun will triumph. HOWEVER, taking that to the level that the debate is on, it no longer applies. For all I care the SEALs could be sporting antimatter weapons, and the Drow have bent butter knives. But if I appear behind you, and put that butter knife in your jugular before you drop the antimatter, did it matter that your weapon was Superior in a fair fight? It absolutely did not. Yes it doesn't matter if your enemies are immune to bullets. Good thing for the Seals the Drow are very much not immune to bullets. Step one Cast lesser Iron Guard. Step two, Immune to Bullets. Huh, guess that they would be, given the low level of that spell. :rolleyes: It doesn't matter how invisable you are to the naked eye when you can't full a thermal vision or a cameras vision. You're right, you win.....Oh wait, didn't I say that the designers never decided how Invisibility and thermal imaging worked? Didn't I say that one of the many reasons they opted to nerf Infravision from 2nd Ed. to 3rd was that very fact? As there is no ruling one way or another as to whether invisibility prevents such methods of detection, it is an argument I myself pointed out as invalid. Additionally who said that being invisible always meant the spell. Did you even listen to me when I pointed out pocket planes? I think your evidently did not. I'd like to see the technology the SEALs use on a daily basis to bridge the planes. :P LMAO, thats rich. You can teleport in whenever you wish, if you can find them. Unless the SEALs sport spells of non-detection, I believe their is a form of magic called divination. ;) Maybe you should read up on it. There are simple things you get too arrogant about that you over look again...Again, and AGAIN. I have overlooked nothing my poor misguided friend. I await to see how you will respond to this post, but I'll wager now you won't touch on any of the points regarding DnD rules. ;):P I'll wager further you will get angry, and yell at me that you don't know the rules, as you did repeatedly in the past. ;) If you need to take the time out of your day to convince someone like me that you are right AFTER 40 TIMES, then you are the one that needs to check up on your iota of intelligence remaining. Ever think that I happen to multi task better than yourself?:P Doesn't take a lot of thought to figure out that perhaps my job permits me the time and ability to run you down, and make money. ;) :P Sorry if you are frustrated right now, but you only made a valid point to your closed minded perspectives. Maybe you can't win a debate with the real world or hence your family. So you try 40+times with the same person to make up for it. You will recieve mockey only when you break the golden rule with me. :P lol, you have a golden rule? How quaint. I'm sorry that you think what I say is invalid. Perhaps you would like me to visit sometime, and bring every piece of information needed to show you how foolishly wrong you are. Perhaps that's it hmmm? You are lonely, and simply want someone to keep talking to you. :P I can keep talking indefinitely, and argue even longer. Especially when I know I am right. :P -RW
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 02:55 PM	Think you missed the other post. Look above you buddy. ;) RW is responding to the Rocky post I believe for everyone who reads this and is confused. Didn't miss it, it happened to come through as I was responding. ;) Of course. Because you like to give people a chance to feel good about themselves all the time without insulting their: intelligence/Family/Age. It is impossible for someone to prove you wrong in something you may have overlooked. I mean making you feel special in the most condescending way possible I promise. *pats head* No EB, I don't overlook simple things, when the situation is equally laid back. I even had a good chuckle to myself when I opted to respond to your little quip, as I found it terribly funny you wanted to rule out numbers saying they were unrealistic, and then turned around and based your argument off of Rocky. Had you done as I did, and picked two real fighters, and shown how they matched up via numbers, and then shown how one beat the other legitimately in a real fight, perhaps I would have taken pause. Sadly that was not the case. In order to try and prove that our numbers are invalid, and that your reality is correct, you have twice slipped into referencing fantasy films and novels. So sorry for your simplicity, but thinking one step ahead of you isn't that hard. ;) :P -RW
Warning 01-08-08, 02:56 PM	Ok buddy, you know what. I'll make a bet with you. Now, we both agree that Drow are psychically better than humans. So everyone here for the Seals con, argues that the better equipment will give them the egde. Here is a prime example. I give a 10 year old a gun, you being a 21 year old with a sword. You are psychically better than a child. Does that mean you will win? As long as the child knows how to point...pull the trigger, it's over. And the Seals very much so know how to do that and more very profesionally, but because the Drow have magic, then it becomes a debatable battle. Not one sided drow victory.
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 03:03 PM	lol, like I said, you ignore my post. I am not, will not, do not, have not, did not ever say that the sword was the guns superior. You are arguing a debate that isn't going on. We are talking the SEALs VS the Drow. If you don't see that I don't know what else to say. The skill of the shooter plays no part in the superiority of Magic. Is that so hard to fathom? -RW
Warning 01-08-08, 03:06 PM	And you don't seem to understand that I am implying that not having to be very skillful to use a gun (which the Seals are still exceptionaly skillful), equals out in the equations where magic would triuph over none-magic. THEREFORE SAYING THAT RULING THE DROW WOULD HANDS DOWN WIN AGAISNT THE SEALS IS FALSE.
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 03:26 PM	Ok, one more time shall we, this time with a visual. The night was cold and dark, and were it not for the early morning chill he'd have slipped into the welcoming embrace of sleep hours ago. It had been four day's since last he'd slept well, and two since he'd slept at all. But damned if he could figure out how they kept coming. On the first even of combat, they'd managed to fell four of the shadowy creatures, despite no bodies being recovered. Since then, their squad of 16 had dwindled down to five. He shifted uncomfortably, and focused his mind back on the field before him. Their location was accessible from only a single angle, one that he was determined to make any being, demon or man, pay dearly for trying to take. Armed with armor piercing rounds, and Thermal imaging, his confidence was beginning to return. Movement to the left. He turns sharply, quickly taking in the silent form of the lone Drow charging his position. With a swift flick of the finger the safety is off. Faster than he can blink, two shots leave the chamber noiselessly flying off for the Drows skull. He grins. With a shrill whistle, the bullets pass harmlessly through the Drows flesh, and off into the night. Their aim had been true, and were it not for the protective enchantments of the parties wizard he would most certainly have perished. Foolish human he chuckled. A look of shock crossed the concealed SEALs face. Those rounds should have made short work of a cinder block. No manner of so small a skull should have survived. Panic flooded his body, and he Leapt quickly to his feet, unleashing as he rose a barrage of fire from his silenced weapon. Shots panged angrily off of unseen stones far out in the night, yet the Drow ran on, silent and undeterred. "Impossible" he mouthed, turning to sound the alarm and rouse his companions. What he saw shocked and sickened him beyond belief. Fighting down the bile that rose in his throat, the last thing he saw as the blade pieced the base of his skull were the serene faces of his sleeping companions, removed and adorning the skulls of the laughing dark elves. But he hadn't even heard them arrive. -RW P.S. Sorry, but if you can't kill something with the only weapon you have, how do you suppose you will win? If I am immune to the 10 yr. olds bullets, what hope does he have against my sword?
Rauric 01-08-08, 03:27 PM	OMG this is mindnumbing. :weep: The whole thread is like a train wreck with bodies everywhere and I can't keep my eyes off it for some reason.
dethmetal 01-08-08, 03:27 PM	I can't belive this thread has reached 30 pages. I'm way to lazy to read through that much text so if this has been brought up before i'm sorry but here's how i see it. Drow win, and here's why. Tactics... not that the drow have better tactics then the trained fighting squad of SEAL's but in the type of Tactics they use. Drow tend to fight with alot of fodder on the front lines, slaves kobold, goblin, human, whatever they can get to go stand in the way of whatevers being thrown at them. You're average SEAL is not going to be willing to sacrafice, dozens, or even hundreds of lives just to distract or weaken the opponents they are facing.
Rauric 01-08-08, 03:30 PM	Nobody wins in this thread. ;)
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 03:32 PM	Another valid point as well. I had assumed they would simply be fighting team on team, but fodder would solidify further their win. -RW
dethmetal 01-08-08, 03:32 PM	obviously Lolth wins from the resulting chaos, is there a strife diety? because they're probally raking in the winnings like it was a poker tourney
Sol_Odlanier 01-08-08, 03:33 PM	I give a 10 year old a gun, you being a 21 year old with a sword. You are psychically better than a child. Does that mean you will win? As long as the child knows how to point...pull the trigger, it's over... Actually (as Ody point out in a previous post) the guy with sword would win, because 1)Unlock the weapon , 2) you need to calibrate the weapon for your sight (5 minutes in a hurry) 3) the recoil may harm the 10 y.o. 4) if dont know how to shoot you'll be shooting all over the place(unless is a shotgun:D) And I advise you to stop the discution before a WizO do it for you....
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 03:36 PM	Cyric is Strife. ;) And who say's that isn't what I am shooting for? :P -RW
dethmetal 01-08-08, 03:39 PM	So that settles it. In a battle of Drow Vs. SEALS Cyric wins. Oh hey, pg. 30! The simplest things make me happy sometimes.
Warning 01-08-08, 05:11 PM	You know what I just relized? You say the Drow are immune to bullets. Well then, why do they carry poision arrow cross-bolts? We all know guns are better than cross-bolts. I'll tell you why, because RW decides too use the best of the best for his cause, and give his opponent the worst of the worst for theirs. "Elimnster vs the Coast Guard". If all the Drow were immune to bullets and could envoke all the Drow with this spell, the world would be over-run by now. Deities would have trouble taking them down. It's like saying, a child is 2'5 Ft Tall and can't touch a mans face that is 6Ft tall. NOT ALL PEOPLE ARE ONLY 2'5FT TALL! NOT ALL DROW ARE IMMUNE. STOP DETAILING OUT ALL THE FLAWS OF THE DROW AND LEAVING IN ONLY THE FAULTLESS ASPECTS OF THEM. Now then, all Seals are elite and on par with nearly any other force. Drow however, vary from entity to entity. So yes, if you are taking the best of the best Drow vs the Seals in gerneral, they would win. But if you are talking loosely: Drow vs Seal, leaving open the possbility for any Drow, then the Seals win hands down. Your done kid, take a seat. Shut down your computer. In fact, just go take a nap. I roll kids on the FR forums like it's my job.
Khaelieth 01-08-08, 05:16 PM	The Hell!? This thread is still about! It's like two kids arguing about whose daddy's strongest!
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-08-08, 06:39 PM	or whose "manhood" is bigger... Anyways now that we have a built and another one on the way(?) we have to mutually agree on How the SEALs get to Faerun(by chance or knowingly) and exactly where the fight would be, I vote for Cormanthor(to make the battle more even while still being the Drow's "turf"...
18DELTA 01-08-08, 06:56 PM	:rolleyes: -Nah, I want to see if those Drow could beat RAMBO!!!!:P:rolleyes: -Cause we all know that RAMBO!!! being make believe would have a better chance of owning those SILLY DROW.:rolleyes: -Maybe Drizzt vs. Marine Force Recon could do the trick!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: P.S. The Red Wizards would spank those S.A.S. Punks like little girly men!!!!:)
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-08-08, 07:08 PM	:rolleyes: -Nah, I want to see if those Drow could beat RAMBO!!!!:P:rolleyes: -Cause we all know that RAMBO!!! being make believe would have a better chance of owning those SILLY DROW.:rolleyes: -Maybe Drizzt vs. Marine Force Recon could do the trick!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: P.S. The Red Wizards would spank those S.A.S. Punks like little girly men!!!!:) :mymy: :rant:Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that Mr. Stalone have been mentioned Twice in this thread? :noway:
Red_Wizard 01-08-08, 08:18 PM	I'm sorry that some feel I am myself acting immature in my responses. It was not my intent, but if you feel it so, I guess that it came across as such. I do however think it's quite unfortunate to see responses regarding competition over Manhood, or ones Fathers. I had assumed the point of the topic was to show definitively one side or the other. After all, what would be the point of allowing this to go so long, if the purpose would be otherwise? :rolleyes: Regardless, my intent was to point out what I felt was more than obvious. Perhaps that was not what was needed, and having the "Yes they are" "non they're not" debate run on in my absence was preferred. As for you Warning, whether or not you like how I conduct myself, is irrelevant. If I wish to end a post with the initials of my login name, far be it from you to stop me. What you call the best of the best, I simply call a 5th level spell, capable of being cast by ANY 11th level wizard, Drow or otherwise. The fact novels do not show such castings as commonplace, is accountable to the fact it would hardly be interesting to the reader if all soldiers could be harmed only by magical weapons at least. When one looks at the spells cast on average however in any given novel, you quickly see that the run of the mill ones such as fireball, and lightning bolt often hold more screen time than any other. This in turn is due to the fact that most wizards can quickly and safely begin to control a battlefield by 5th level, which again is less than interesting to the average fan. Additionally cross bow bolts are not comprised entirely of metal. They have iron tips, and wooden shafts. Additionally, poison on the weapon will still effect the victim, even if the weapon/ projectile does not stick. Last time I checked however, the SEALs use neither wooden projectiles nor poison, so it once more a moot point. If you are going to allow the SEALs to be fully and completely prepared with any and all materials you feel they would have/ need to combat the threat, I think it only fair to extend similar treatment to their opposition. As I said though, if you wish to have it rigged in the favour of the SEALs, by all means do so, and you then become correct, the SEALs win. -RW P.S. I like both Briton and Thay, equally for many varied reasons. However if I am to give the advantage to the Drow in a fight with the SEALs, why on earth would I say that the superior casters of Thay would, or could lose to the SAS? :rolleyes:
WizO_Kwai_Chang 01-08-08, 08:48 PM	Everyone: Please keep all posts polite and respectful.
Philalexandros 01-09-08, 01:10 AM	None. Imo the seals would wear Tactical vests. +6 AC +2 Max Dex -5 check penalty, 25 ft speed. No DR. In the real world kevlar protects against bullets but against knives it is a lot less protective. Derren, I accept that canon rules do not provide DR for modern body armor. Having said that (and for our own internal discussion), I assure you--from our own testing and experience--that kevlar-based body armor and the vests they come with are effective against not only knives, but other effects that are far more damaging than metal weapons--think shrapnel, for instance. One could argue that the non-plated portions of body armor would fail to protect against, say, a direct knife stab. Said argument would be incorrect to begin with, but even if this were the case... the AC and DR affixed to "archaic" armor is only an approximation. Eg, one could wear an adamantine chain shirt. He would enjoy an AC that's at least XX and DR 3/-. Nonetheless, the chain shirt only in fact provides protection to one's torso (and parts of the head, if you take the PHB illustration as binding). Thus, IF modern body armor were to enjoy the benefits I thought it should, I would say that its AC and DR would be well-earned nonetheless. :) Cheers, P.
Philalexandros 01-09-08, 04:26 AM	Red Wizard, I think you make thoughtful, challenging points. Having said that, I have a couple of questions: 1) How many drow wizards realistically carry enough defensive spells to augment an entire party of the size in question? I guess I'm asking if we're going with the logical answer ("I carry as many as it takes to ensure my teammates can secure the victory without compromising my own effectiveness") or with the "realistic" answer ("I treat my lowly 2) Do the drow know of the SEALs? How about vice-versa? Is this a "Final Countdown"-like scenario, except that... instead of time-travelling to pre-WWII times the SEALs dimensionally fold to Faerun? Beyond that, I think that, being far more familiar with D&D rules rather than the effects of modern weaponry, people on this forum might be more inclined to think of the effects described in the former as more potent. One of the reasons why I kept asking for concrete numbers and statted out characters is because that way we would know *exactly* what effects the drow could bring to bear and thus determine, hopefully through objective debate (and, granted, somewhat unrealistic rules :) ), whether those effects would overcome a SEAL squad or platoon. In that way, we could finally determine under what conditions the two parties meet; where they do so; and who would actually get to do what... Maybe you're right; perhaps the drow could overcome an initial SEAL onslaught of firepower and gracefully skewer the obstinate humans! Or maybe enough SEALs at that level would have had the benefit of initiative and been able to (conceivably) ruin spellcaster concentration with flash-bang grenades (deafening, blinding, stunning effects) or energy-based attacks (regular hand-grenades, explosive projectiles, etc.). Who knows? I did enjoy your descriptive piece, though. :) Also, I think we need to start thinking more about the points False-paradox-Truth made--both about the feats available to a SEAL and the rules surrounding death by massive firearm damage. Unless we specifically define the drow that will be fighting, the spells that will be available to them, and the items they will be wielding, the abilities (just to pick two out of hand) to make as many as 4 bursts per round--each inflicting 4d8 or 4d10 damage--and to automatically confirm criticals (at triple damage) simply cannot be ignored out of hand. :)
Derren S. 01-09-08, 05:44 AM	thought it should, I would say that its AC and DR would be well-earned nonetheless. :) Does a tactical/kevlar vest protect someone better against cuts etc. than a plate mail? Probably not and when the plate mail does not get build in DR why should the vest? Imo you won't get definitive stats for either party as this discussion is just too chaotic. People can't even agree on numbers and classes. I can offer a scenario but I don't have the time to stat the characters out. Also the problem is that the characters have to be statted unbiased and not tailored to defeat the others. My scenario: Clear night, open field with few cover. Open hostility (both parties will attack on sight) Starting encounter distance 500 ft. 6 man squads Seals: 4 normal gunners with M4or M16 (your pick,M16 is slightly better) 1 Heavy machine gun (or other heavy weapon) 1 sniper Drow: 4 Sword and Shield fighter 1 2 handed weapon guy 1 two weapon fighting guy All combatants are ECL 20 with the elite stat array. Equipment: Core only (Core = D20 modern for seals, D&D for drow), no precast spells. Seals: Whatever is logical for them (no vehicles) Drow: Level appropriate gear (NPC or PC wealth? Maybe something in between?) You or someone else might stat them. Ressources: www.d20srd.com http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd One thing, when you stat them please give the Drow potions of invisibility or improved invisibility and soem teleporting boots as imo those things are the main reasons why the drow would win. Or at least explain to me how the seals would defend against those things. You are of course free to change this scenario if you think that something is unfair for one of the sides. I tried to make this scenario neutral, giving each side an advantage.
Philalexandros 01-09-08, 06:09 AM	Does a tactical/kevlar vest protect someone better against cuts etc. than a plate mail? Probably not ... Well, it all depends on location, right? I agree that most versions of heavy D&D armor (plate, full plate, etc.) protect a greater portion of the body than, say, the combat helmet and body armor (Interceptor, Dragonskin, Paraclete, etc., all of which basically replicate a back-and-breastplate) used by a US servicemember. That having been said, yes: tests have shown that modern body armor--especially this "Dragonskin" variant that was just released--can and will protect against cuts better than plate armor. Even the non-plated portions of the basic Interceptor armor protect against 9mm rounds, which pack much greater penetrating trauma than the primitive ball rounds of early gunpowder weapons that defeated the pinnacle of European metallurgy. Where the plated portions are concerned, there is very little, if any, chance at all of penetration via melee weapons. And we haven't even begun addressing the advanced stuff that SpecOps actually fields and evaluates. I was getting into that stuff, and then I realized I was simply rambling! :D ... and when the plate mail does not get build in DR why should the vest? To be truthfully honest with you, my favorite variation of D&D rules involves armor providing only DR benefits (not AC) and a derivitive of the Defense Bonus rules system (I feel differently than the WotC people as to what class merits what). Imo you won't get definitive stats for either party as this discussion is just too chaotic. People can't even agree on numbers and classes. I can offer a scenario but I don't have the time to stat the characters out. Also the problem is that the characters have to be statted unbiased and not tailored to defeat the others. Here is what I will attempt to do when I get a little more time: 1) I'll stat out a 20th level d20 Modern (using SRD and nothing else) Soldier Hero using feats and equipment that make sense for a SEAL. 2) I'll also stat out an 18th level (+2 LA = 20th level character) Drow fighter with equipment appropriate to an NPC of that level. I'll allow you or any other person to overrule me with more appropriate feat selection, item selection, etc. We'll use that mini-scenario as a launching point. If we feel there's more to be gained, we'll continue with your scenario. Deal? :)
Red_Wizard 01-09-08, 10:00 AM	OK, just quick here. First off I am assuming if you are using an elite squad of RW warriors, the same courtesy should be extended the Drow. After all, of all the fighting forces we have, the Spec. Ops. comprise a very VERY small portion. This for the most part is equally true for the Drow. So to clarify, I am assuming the best trained Drow, VS the Best trained SEALs. Additionally, for the sake of fairness, given that the scenario can't be field tested, I am assuming that both sides have had several skirmishes, allowing them to get a nearly perfect account of weapons and tactics for each. Hence Armor piercing rounds to counter the adamantine, and Thermal Imaging, despite the grey area of Invisibility. All of this factored in, one IMO can safely assume that both sides are doing all they can to nullify any advantage the opposition has, and thus I come to my answers. They may not be popular, but IMO the only way to Fairly judge this fight, is to remove as much of the random factors as one can, stripping it to bare bones. -RW
Derren S. 01-09-08, 10:04 AM	Hence Armor piercing rounds to counter the adamantine, and Thermal Imaging, despite the grey area of Invisibility. All of this factored in, one IMO can safely assume that both sides are doing all they can to nullify any advantage the opposition has, and thus I come to my answers. Why? Armor Piercing rounds are not needed because adamantine (if Phil uses it) does not negate the atacks of the seals. It just reduces the damage by up to 3 points. Armor piercing ammunition does not change that (unless they are statted in D20modern and it says they do). And Night Vision equipment is statted in the D20 modern book. it does only give you darkvision, not the ability to see invisible creatures. Thermal Image would be the same. It won't counter invisibility as you still can't see the drow no matter what spectrum you use.
Red_Wizard 01-09-08, 10:18 AM	I was saying it more in regards to the SEALs natural response to a situation in which their weapons were not affecting the target. Ramp it up, so to speak. :) As I pointed out before, there was no decision in DnD one way or the other as to whether or not Infravision could see through Invis, so I was inclined to say it did not. However, to cover the bases, I figured It was better to put it out there, and have someone say it doesn't work, thank omit it, and be yelled at for not "giving the SEALs their due". :) -RW
Derren S. 01-09-08, 10:27 AM	As I pointed out before, there was no decision in DnD one way or the other as to whether or not Infravision could see through Invis, so I was inclined to say it did not. It doesn't matter anyway. In the D20 Modern rules "thermal vision goggles" do not exist, only night vision goggles and those only provide the benefits of darkvision.
Warning 01-09-08, 06:21 PM	It doesn't matter anyway. In the D20 Modern rules "thermal vision goggles" do not exist, only night vision goggles and those only provide the benefits of darkvision. Dude, I hate how you keep taking away from Seals to give advantage to Drow. This has been the only way you have seen the Drow to win, which in my eyes, is an insult to Drow. *** at least he let's me keep my arguments about any advantage the Seals DO have and tries to prove it wrong from there. I remember in the start of this topic, you had tried to imply that the Seals electronics did not work and that they had no guns. Now you are still on the debate for factual grounds as to of what the Seals can't have and the Drow having everything to their disposal. So if you want to say that the Seals don't have all their pliminary equipment, yes the Drow would win. But if you want to be fair about it, no the Seals win, when both sides are at equal grounds of their prepration. And if you say it's because "This topic was made on the foundations of Seals w/o electronics" because of the FR universe laws. Then by all means, post that so I can make a new topic where we can have this unbiased thread "Seals vs Drow in a neutral territory". You forget, that me (ExtinctionBeta), is the reason Starploknight made this thread basing what I had posted in another thread about the Seals beating the Drow. So if you want to get technical, in no way did I have the intent in my posting of Seals having any equipment,skill,knowlege,electronics taken away in due battle.
WizO_Mimir 01-09-08, 07:27 PM	The personal attacks need to cease immediately. Kwai Chang already asked everyone to post nicely. If you can't discuss the topic at hand without sniping at each other and calling each other names, then this thread will be at an end. Post nice!
Warning 01-09-08, 07:32 PM	The personal attacks need to cease immediately. Kwai Chang already asked everyone to post nicely. If you can't discuss the topic at hand without sniping at each other and calling each other names, then this thread will be at an end. Post nice! Awsome. Not saying I will "snip" at anyone. But then I can make a new thread that will have logic and none-disadvatage of biased ground settings. "Let's have a shark sitting on land with no water surrounding it and all it's teeth pulled out tied up with chains and it's eyes gouged out and I'm sure I would beat it". Thanks for taking away Seals equipment Derren S. Let's remember, "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight!". This is fake and would never happen: Fake video #1:http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TEg32t30yA Fake video #2:http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z5_RP1NLTAQ Both of these are video games for a reason. In reality it would be more like this: Fact video #3: http://youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc
Philalexandros 01-10-08, 12:30 AM	OK, just quick here. First off I am assuming if you are using an elite squad of RW warriors, the same courtesy should be extended the Drow. After all, of all the fighting forces we have, the Spec. Ops. comprise a very VERY small portion. This for the most part is equally true for the Drow. So to clarify, I am assuming the best trained Drow, VS the Best trained SEALs. That goes without saying. :) And, as I said, I will be relying on y'all to make suggestions on improving inventories/etc. Additionally, for the sake of fairness, given that the scenario can't be field tested, I am assuming that both sides have had several skirmishes, allowing them to get a nearly perfect account of weapons and tactics for each. For my first trial run, I'm afraid I will not go that route. It will be a 1-on-1 fight, fought in an Underdark corridor (approx. 20 feet wide). The encounter will be initiated when both opponents see one another via their respective Darkvision (at 120 feet distance). Hence Armor piercing rounds to counter the adamantine, and Thermal Imaging, despite the grey area of Invisibility. All of this factored in, one IMO can safely assume that both sides are doing all they can to nullify any advantage the opposition has, and thus I come to my answers. Do you have any D20 Modern resources other than the SRD? I do not, being in Afghanistan at this time. If you don't either, I'm afraid we have to go by SRD vs. SRD considerations.
Philalexandros 01-10-08, 01:33 AM	A couple more questions/points: 1) Does the d20 Modern death by massive damage rule count? 2) If not, I would seriously consider mitigating what I see as a rather silly d20 Modern rule--the requirement to take Light and Medium Armour Proficiency feats prior to taking Heavy Armour Proficiency. I can assure everyone in this forum that no one in the military starts off with "undercover shirts" or "leather jackets". We go straight into heavy, tactical, plated vests. I bring this up because the starting occupation of "Military" allows you to choose Armour Proficiency-Light, which is plainly ridiculous. 3) Does anyone feel better about keeping things simple by making a "SEAL" a straight D&D Fighter w/d20 Modern Feats?
Derren S. 01-10-08, 09:45 AM	1) Does the d20 Modern death by massive damage rule count? What are those rules? 2) If not, I would seriously consider mitigating what I see as a rather silly d20 Modern rule--the requirement to take Light and Medium Armour Proficiency feats prior to taking Heavy Armour Proficiency. I can assure everyone in this forum that no one in the military starts off with "undercover shirts" or "leather jackets". We go straight into heavy, tactical, plated vests. I bring this up because the starting occupation of "Military" allows you to choose Armour Proficiency-Light, which is plainly ridiculous. The soldier class does get several bonus feats, so no matter what the soldiers should have heavy armor proficiency. What would be the difference? 1 feat? 3) Does anyone feel better about keeping things simple by making a "SEAL" a straight D&D Fighter w/d20 Modern Feats? The soldier class does get some different abilities, not to mention that the base class is very different from a fighter. But if the others are only interested in magic vs technology then this would be the best idea.
Red_Wizard 01-10-08, 10:21 AM	Awsome. Not saying I will "snip" at anyone. But then I can make a new thread that will have logic and none-disadvatage of biased ground settings. "Let's have a shark sitting on land with no water surrounding it and all it's teeth pulled out tied up with chains and it's eyes gouged out and I'm sure I would beat it". Thanks for taking away Seals equipment Derren S. Let's remember, "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight!". This is fake and would never happen: Fake video #1:http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TEg32t30yA Fake video #2:http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z5_RP1NLTAQ Both of these are video games for a reason. In reality it would be more like this: Fact video #3: http://youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc Sigh. Still going huh? Do you like to ignore the rules, or is it something you do specially for the benefit of those of us who try to inform you of them. The latter video you call "fact", is close to what would most likely happen in a normal, magic free Sword on Gun fight. The former videos look alot closer to how things would pan out when the opponent had magic. Last time Warning, no one is arguing that in a mundane magic free environment, where the playing field is flat, and the swordsman distanced from the marksman that the Shooter would most likely win. However, we are not talking in such a scenario. -RW
Philalexandros 01-10-08, 10:26 AM	What are those rules? From the SRD: "Any time a character takes damage from a single hit that exceeds the character’s massive damage threshold, that damage is considered massive damage. A character’s massive damage threshold is equal to the character’s current Constitution score; it can be increased by taking the Improved Damage Threshold feat. When a character takes massive damage that doesn’t reduce his or her hit points to 0 or lower, the character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15). If the character fails the save, the character’s hit point total is immediately reduced to –1. If the save succeeds, the character suffers no ill effect beyond the loss of hit points. Creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to the effects of massive damage." So, either way, the odds of an 18th level fighter missing the Fort. save are low... but still there (between 5%-10%, depending on the CON modifier). The soldier class does get several bonus feats, so no matter what the soldiers should have heavy armor proficiency. What would be the difference? 1 feat? Unfortunately, it's much more substantial. A human Fighter has automatic proficiency in all types of armor and shields--somewhat unrealistically, given that there's no guarantee one's social class or wealth level would allow for this. He also has, by level 4, a total of 5 feats. A d20 Modern hero also has 5 feats by level 4. Regardless of class chosen, though, no armor proficiency is provided. Basic Classes in d20 are all restricted to certain selections where their level-based feats are concerned. Not a single one allows for an Armor Proficiency Feat to be taken. The Advanced Class of Soldier allows for it, it has a pre-requisite of Personal Firearms Proficiency as well (duh). Worse, he only receives 3 feats between levels 1-10. To save you time numbers crunching and such, the only Class-Feat combination that allows full Armor proficiency prior to becoming a Soldier (min. lvl 4) is to pick the Fast Hero (the Rogue of d20...) and burn every single level 1 feat on armor proficiency. This is because the Fast Hero is the only hero that allows access to the Personal Firearms feat after level 1. Any other Class-feat combo requires that you burn Soldier feats on armor... at the expense of developing any firearms feat tree. Not very realistic if you ask me; I'm rather proficient with heavy, d20 Modern-style armor, and I assure you: I have never spent a day messing around with "undercover shirts". Anyways, please don't read into this an attempt to influence the debate... I'm venting more than anything else. :D The soldier class does get some different abilities, not to mention that the base class is very different from a fighter. Fair enough. :) Basically, I'm almost done with this build. As unrealistic and unfair as it's going to be, I'm afraid I will have to forego appropriate armor proficiency. Incidentally, is data from WotC's Urban Arcana book (which has the actual Special Operations prestige class) eligible*? Technically, the drow are not in the SRD either... ;) * Either way, I may not have access to it soon enough.
Flicker 01-10-08, 10:43 AM	Well, it all depends on location, right? I agree that most versions of heavy D&D armor (plate, full plate, etc.) protect a greater portion of the body than, say, the combat helmet and body armor (Interceptor, Dragonskin, Paraclete, etc., all of which basically replicate a back-and-breastplate) used by a US servicemember. That having been said, yes: tests have shown that modern body armor--especially this "Dragonskin" variant that was just released--can and will protect against cuts better than plate armor. Even the non-plated portions of the basic Interceptor armor protect against 9mm rounds, which pack much greater penetrating trauma than the primitive ball rounds of early gunpowder weapons that defeated the pinnacle of European metallurgy. Where the plated portions are concerned, there is very little, if any, chance at all of penetration via melee weapons. And we haven't even begun addressing the advanced stuff that SpecOps actually fields and evaluates. I was getting into that stuff, and then I realized I was simply rambling! :D To be truthfully honest with you, my favorite variation of D&D rules involves armor providing only DR benefits (not AC) and a derivitive of the Defense Bonus rules system (I feel differently than the WotC people as to what class merits what). Here is what I will attempt to do when I get a little more time: 1) I'll stat out a 20th level d20 Modern (using SRD and nothing else) Soldier Hero using feats and equipment that make sense for a SEAL. 2) I'll also stat out an 18th level (+2 LA = 20th level character) Drow fighter with equipment appropriate to an NPC of that level. I'll allow you or any other person to overrule me with more appropriate feat selection, item selection, etc. We'll use that mini-scenario as a launching point. If we feel there's more to be gained, we'll continue with your scenario. Deal? :) In an attempt to understand this thread without getting booted by the WizO's, please can both of you remember 1 thing. While agreement can probably be reached on stats and feats and equipment, given a fair minded scenario, you will only be able to compare the 2 within a D&D framework and the assumed subsequent combat, of the 2 characters. Unfortunately does that really answer the question? Are we trying to imagine how these characters/people would be in real life? Assuming everything worked? The point I'm getting at, is neither knows the capability of the other or is able to put it in a framework of reference they would understand without full assessment of the others abilities etc. Just having them come face to face in a tunnel, would likely lead to both retreating to assess the relevant threat levels, of which the drow would then come out superior due to innate abilities of magic. Now, if you use the D20 rules accordingly both modern and traditional, then again the Drow should win, all other things been equal due to innate abilities etc, yes the SEAL can do more damage with a modern weapon, but as the modern armies have found if you don't know where your foe is/can't see him, all the firepower in the world doesn't help you. Oh and when will somebody comment that SEALS are specialists, they are explosives,obstacle clearance and recon specialists. you should really use a Marine.
Derren S. 01-10-08, 11:04 AM	The massive damage rules sound like they would be an advantage for the seals, but that depends on the attack vs AC. But as you said it would be a pretty random event. I have nothing against using D&D massive damage rules (or ignoring it altogether) and giving the seals all armor proficiencies but I don't know if others would complain if we change too much. (But when I think about it, most other people in this discussion don't use stats anyway...) Feel free to make an additional "special Ops class" team. But I also want to see the results of soldiers vs drow.
Rauric 01-10-08, 12:16 PM	"Oh and when will somebody comment that SEALS are specialists, they are explosives,obstacle clearance and recon specialists. you should really use a Marine." Marines arn't as "leet" and cool as SEALS tho. OMG, SEALS can kill AO most likely with enough prep time! Check AOs stats and you will see what I'm saying. Oi, just joking all .;)
Derren S. 01-10-08, 12:19 PM	Lets rename this in "Generic though soldier" vs. Drow.
Sol_Odlanier 01-10-08, 03:28 PM	"SpecOps" is an more appropiate name :)
Sol_Odlanier 01-10-08, 03:36 PM	3) Does anyone feel better about keeping things simple by making a "SEAL" a straight D&D Fighter w/d20 Modern Feats? I personally don't like the idead since (as you know) the fighter doesn't have skills that are the "bread and butter" of "SpecOps" and I agree whith Darren that the "SF(or whatever)" can use tech to see the Drow with their gear (so Listen Check is key) Also it will differ one Soldier from the other (Gunner, Demo,Medic, and so on....)
Stigger 01-14-08, 01:44 PM	This is going back a few pages, but just to make my point clear on the attribute bonus issue, if you increase any attribute by +2, the modifier will increase by +1, regardless of what the attribute score is. 22 to 24, 10 to 12, 60 to 62, the increase is always going to be +1 from whatever it was before. Not sure why that seems to be so difficult to understand... Feh, anyway, as to the rest, I'm done with this. Just don't have the patience anymore, been a crappy week.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 05:15 PM	Feh, anyway, as to the rest, I'm done with this. Just don't have the patience anymore... -Exactly.
Straploknight 01-18-08, 02:28 PM	I'm amazed its lasted this long, how bout we take it to thne next level and make it S.E.A.Ls vs. Drow - Requiem!
Stigger 01-18-08, 07:40 PM	Heh, thanks, but... no thanks. :D
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:17 AM	-How 'bout Lord Karsus parts the skies, and hurls down an Empowered, Maximized, Twinned Delayed Blast Fireball?
Straploknight 01-19-08, 01:21 AM	Only after you convince everybody in Waterdeep that the center of the city is the extraction point and 4 people ride out on a magic carpet as your nu... I mean fireball blasts Waterdeep :P
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:25 AM	-Nah, I'm just blowing up the the random Drow who happen to be fighting with the random Navy SEALs. You know, making sure there is no encore.
Warning 01-19-08, 04:49 AM	Feh, anyway, as to the rest, I'm done with this. Just don't have the patience anymore, been a crappy week. GG. Now good day sir.:clap:
Sol_Odlanier 01-20-08, 03:41 PM	So you've been hiding for weeks and come out just to be rude?
Warning 01-20-08, 07:48 PM	So you've been hiding for weeks and come out just to be rude? Ah, so you been keeping tabs on me. I'm glad to see you care so much when I'm not around. Did you miss me Sol? =] BTW GO GIANTS: It's 7:46 pm Eastern currently NYG:6 GYB:7. LK BETTER BE GOING FOR THE GIANTS OR YOU ARE A FAKE NEW YORKER YOU NONE YANKEES FAN.
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 03:14 AM	-Big Blue won, and I've got a good feeling for the Super Bowl. What else is there to say? -Mind you, baseball is inferior to football, but football is a decent sport, nonetheless. It ranks #3 on my spectrum, behind baseball and hockey, but above basketball, golf, and whatever is left. -And, dude, don't call me a fake New Yorker. Again.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-21-08, 02:06 PM	Ah, so you been keeping tabs on me. I'm glad to see you care so much when I'm not around. Did you miss me Sol? =] BTW GO GIANTS: It's 7:46 pm Eastern currently NYG:6 GYB:7. LK BETTER BE GOING FOR THE GIANTS OR YOU ARE A FAKE NEW YORKER YOU NONE YANKEES FAN. Well when some thing like a tumor in the base of your spine is gone for a while, you sorta notice, and DO NOT miss it. :P
Warning 01-21-08, 07:53 PM	-And, dude, don't call me a fake New Yorker. Again. Fake New Yorker.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 06:15 AM	-Oh, boy, you sure are a rebel...:rolleyes: -For the life of me, I don't understand why this thread hasn't been closed. I mean, it's got it all- Off-topicness, flames, trolling, personal attacks, bickering, back-and-forths. What doesn't it have?
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 07:28 AM	Why won't this thread die!? Power word kill!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 01:31 PM	Okay, guys: "If you need instructions on how to get through the hotels, check out the enclosed instruction book.":)
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 01:48 PM	-Mind you, baseball is inferior to football, but football is a decent sport, nonetheless. It ranks #3 on my spectrum, behind baseball and hockey, but above basketball, golf, and whatever is left. Fireball hurling beats all these sports.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 02:01 PM	Fireball hurling beats all these sports. -Hell no. Baseball is still better. You don't understand- I'm an oldschool Jew from Brooklyn. I sometimes (not intentionally) say 'youse' and 'tree', when saying 'you' pluralized, and 'three'. Bagels and baseball is in my genes. Sandy Koufax is still my hero.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 02:34 PM	-Hell no. Baseball is still better. You don't understand- I'm an oldschool Jew from Brooklyn. I sometimes (not intentionally) say 'youse' and 'tree', when saying 'you' pluralized, and 'three'. That's cool! :rofl:
18DELTA 01-22-08, 02:35 PM	Well when some thing like a tumor in the base of your spine is gone for a while, you sorta notice, and DO NOT miss it. :P ROFL!!! LORD DELTA:rofl:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-22-08, 02:41 PM	ROFL!!! LORD DELTA:rofl: :bravo: Just for the record, I wasn't trying to be funny, just objective;)
Straploknight 01-22-08, 06:16 PM	-Oh, boy, you sure are a rebel...:rolleyes: -For the life of me, I don't understand why this thread hasn't been closed. I mean, it's got it all- Off-topicness, flames, trolling, personal attacks, bickering, back-and-forths. What doesn't it have? As a Wizo, would you waste the time to peruse a post titled "So about those S.E.A.Ls vs. Drow", it was half-hearted at best. Imagine my suprise its gone as long as it has (reminds me of the spartan hate pit post over on the CoH boards).
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 06:20 PM	As a Wizo, would you waste the time to peruse a post titled "So about those S.E.A.Ls vs. Drow", it was half-hearted at best. Imagine my suprise its gone as long as it has (reminds me of the spartan hate pit post over on the CoH boards). -Just one click, and it's all gone. They've come in an edited posts, and told people to be civil multiple times now. Just one click...
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-22-08, 06:44 PM	:bump: -Just one click, and it's all gone. They've come in an edited posts, and told people to be civil multiple times now. Just one click...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 06:59 PM	-Just one click, and it's all gone. They've come in an edited posts, and told people to be civil multiple times now. As far as I'm aware, they usually come when prompted by someone reporting a post.
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 07:12 PM	-Hell no. Baseball is still better. You don't understand- I'm an oldschool Jew from Brooklyn. I sometimes (not intentionally) say 'youse' and 'tree', when saying 'you' pluralized, and 'three'. Bagels and baseball is in my genes. Sandy Koufax is still my hero. I say yous and I speak with a Scots accent;) And tbh, my favourite sports would be: 1. Football (European) 2. Rugby - close second 3. Bandy - Football on ice skates with shinty sticks for those who know what that is. Also love snooker and pool, but they're only technically sports.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-22-08, 07:19 PM	Boxing for me...
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 08:04 PM	I say yous and I speak with a Scots accent;) And tbh, my favourite sports would be: 1. Football (European) 2. Rugby - close second 3. Bandy - Football on ice skates with shinty sticks for those who know what that is. Also love snooker and pool, but they're only technically sports. -Ah, crazy European sports. :P Boxing for me... -While I don't activley follow boxing, it is a pretty good sport. If the boxing industry was more unified, with there being one central boxing authority, instead of multiple ones, with multiple belts, etc., I think boxing would benefit. -I've been watching a lot of WWF/WWE wrestling on Youtube lately. :embarrass :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 08:07 PM	-I've been watching a lot of WWF/WWE wrestling on Youtube lately. :embarrass :D You watch that too? *laughs* A few years ago my step-brother sorta-kinda (but not really!) got me into that. I even saw a few shows live, at the Meadowlands/Continental Airlines Arena.:)
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 08:26 PM	Boxing for me... I used to box, but only fight club-ish. No ring, just a ring of arms around and only way out was if you won or got knocked out. Was 16 and stupid, and knocked a mate out cold on TV. Heh. Then the guy arranging it all smashed (not broke, smashed) some fellows jaw at a party and had to do some civil stuff and we sorta stopped.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 08:26 PM	You watch that too? *laughs* A few years ago my step-brother sorta-kinda (but not really!) got me into that. I even saw a few shows live, at the Meadowlands/Continental Airlines Arena.:) -When I was a young kid (from around 92-94), and then again when I was older (from around 96-99). Then I stopped watching. But, recently, the WWF had a 15th Anniversary show, and I watched the entire thing on Youtube. Afterwards, it got me thinking, "Hey, what happened in the inbetween". Suffice to say, a lot of it is extremely crappy, and apparently the time I was into it (96-99) was the 'Renaissance' of the WWF. -When I was younger, I went to a live show. I don't remember much, but I remember Macho Man was wrestling.
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 08:30 PM	Wrestling never appealed to me. Too much male skin-on-skin contact.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 09:47 AM	-When I was younger, I went to a live show. I don't remember much, but I remember Macho Man was wrestling. I saw Stone Cold Steven Austin (although he didn't wrestle, he drove out on some car-thing). :rofl:
18DELTA 01-23-08, 09:59 AM	-Yeah my grandpappy got me into watching that silly @ss trailerpark white trash nonsense!!!:D Down here in the Feywild(Texas) The Von Erichs and their promotion was what was the big time. Then they started to all die.:rolleyes: Yeah its weird seeing wrestlers that are still around from the late 80's early 90's still kicking @ss, or getting their @ss kicked!:D Now I watch to see the Divas!!!:dancin: :love: :drool: :inlove: Yes I am using my army of smilies again!!!:P DELTA;)
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-23-08, 10:47 AM	Stacy Kebler. Nuff said
dethmetal 01-23-08, 12:42 PM	Stacy Kebler. Nuff said We have a winner
Stigger 01-23-08, 04:31 PM	Pro Wrestling still exists? News to me...
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-24-08, 10:41 AM	:rofl: Hey Warning! Stig was in favor of the SEALs
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 11:08 PM	-Wait...What if the SEALs were Transformers? Now what?
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-30-08, 06:10 AM	-Wait...What if the SEALs were Transformers? Now what? :rofl: Tor...err Optimus Prime, nuff said! :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 01:42 PM	-Wait...What if the SEALs were Transformers? Now what? Then they'd say stuff like "Transformers...roll out!"
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 01:49 PM	I going to throw a wrench into this whole argument. What if the SEALS were able to utilize the Triforce of ****? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViVj3Vc_hbI)
Red_Wizard 01-30-08, 01:59 PM	-Wait...What if the SEALs were Transformers? Now what? Summon a pack of rabid Rust Monsters. -RW
Lord Karsus 01-30-08, 02:25 PM	Summon a pack of rabid Rust Monsters. -RW -Transformers are made of plastic, nowadays.
dethmetal 01-30-08, 02:33 PM	I going to throw a wrench into this whole argument. What if the SEALS were able to utilize the Triforce of ****? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViVj3Vc_hbI) that made my head hurt. :confused:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 04:11 PM	that made my head hurt. :confused: Ha ha! :rofl: LK, you should check the video out, it uses Beatles music. ;)
Red_Wizard 01-30-08, 05:29 PM	-Transformers are made of plastic, nowadays. Isn't everything. *looks hungrily at plastic fruit* -RW
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:23 AM	LK, you should check the video out, it uses Beatles music. ;) -I did. I was going to comment on it, but I was really at a loss of words. The use of Beatles music in that I equate to having sex in a church. You just don't defile something sacred like that. ;) Isn't everything. *looks hungrily at plastic fruit* -RW -Ironically enough, when my grandmother died a year ago, one of the things I took from her house was the plastic fruit. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 10:57 AM	-I did. I was going to comment on it, but I was really at a loss of words. The use of Beatles music in that I equate to having sex in a church. You just don't defile something sacred like that. ;) Oh, NO!:eek: I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your grandmother.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:34 PM	Oh, NO!:eek: I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your grandmother. -That was a year ago (almost exactly to the day, actually). I got over it a long time ago. She was due to die.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 02:37 PM	-That was a year ago (almost exactly to the day, actually). I got over it a long time ago. She was due to die. I'm still sorry to hear about it. I lost my father 5 years ago, so I know what it feels like.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 02:41 PM	I'm still sorry to hear about it. I lost my father 5 years ago, so I know what it feels like. -Ah, sorry about that. There is a difference between a father, who was probably between 45-65, and probably shouldn't have died, and a grandmother, who is in amazingly bad heath, and was 83, even if I was close with her.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 02:50 PM	-Ah, sorry about that. There is a difference between a father, who was probably between 45-65, and probably shouldn't have died, and a grandmother, who is in amazingly bad heath, and was 83, even if I was close with her. Thank you.:) Yes, my father was only 47, and seemingly in very good health and shape, yet he died suddenly in his sleep (apparently, he had an enlarged heart). No one expected it.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 07:45 PM	We all are dying, act accordingly. -Indeed. Good advice that we should all follow. By the way, I'd like to take the liberity that Rino is indeed for the Seals. She PMed me this video to show her love for gun fights: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ff5DlpZiMZ0 Great taste in movies Rino ;) -Somehow, I don't know...
Warning 02-05-08, 06:12 PM	-Indeed. Good advice that we should all follow. -Somehow, I don't know... LK also sent me this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=D7gXsw24CrA This forum really knows how to pick em. Let's see a drow take that on. Your done kids, take a seat and turn off your computers.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 06:26 PM	LK also sent me this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=D7gXsw24CrA -No I didn't.
Warning 02-05-08, 06:28 PM	-No I didn't. Don't be shy.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 06:30 PM	-Oh...Okay, sure...Gee, how could I forget...:rolleyes:
Stigger 02-12-08, 04:24 AM	Still not dead yet... gonna need a bigger stake to kill it I guess...
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-12-08, 03:54 PM	Still not dead yet... gonna need a bigger stake to kill it I guess... You know you love it :P
Stigger 02-12-08, 07:51 PM	Love and hate are siblings...
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 08:24 PM	Love and hate are siblings... -They go on different knuckles.
Stigger 02-14-08, 01:28 AM	Not always... don't ask... but not always...
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 03-29-08, 02:25 PM	I as The One With The Last Word declare in the name of Lord Karsus that the human S.E.A.L.s Warriors are The Champions of this Contest!!! :P Gods I'm bored
Stigger 03-29-08, 02:28 PM	You must be to revive something as evil as this thread. Just let it die the Slow Death and be done with it...
Lord Karsus 03-29-08, 02:29 PM	-Indeed...
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 03-29-08, 02:38 PM	C'mon I know I got at least a "Holy ****" from you ;) but if you both insist:allalone:
Straploknight 03-29-08, 04:08 PM	/e Gets AA-12 shot gun, pops 96 round drum with explosive anti zombie rounds. /e pulls trigger This thread is dead!:devil:
Khaelieth 03-29-08, 04:17 PM	As one says here... "Oy, see you! Yer deid!"
Lord Karsus 03-30-08, 01:41 AM	This thread is dead!:devil: -Which isn't necessarily going to stop it.
Straploknight 03-30-08, 04:15 PM	shhhhhhhh...... it thinks it died twice now, just let it sleep.
Warning 04-04-08, 06:50 PM	Fantasy swords would beat guns. But how about fantasy guns? Try this Elf lovers...: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gpByy8bRzyo
18DELTA 05-23-08, 07:43 AM	You must be to revive something as evil as this thread. Just let it die the Slow Death and be done with it... -:plotting: :evillaugh :rofl: :rofl: :P 18D;)
Straploknight 05-24-08, 10:21 AM	Machete - check AA12 Shot Gun - check Thermite - check Okay got all my zombie gear and I'm going in after this thread. Remeber if I come out walking real quiet and slow with a dull look and blank stare mumbling something about brains, you guys know what to do. :P
Rauric 05-25-08, 12:40 AM	Fantasy swords would beat guns. But how about fantasy guns? Try this Elf lovers...: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gpByy8bRzyo Why do you post on different "Avatars" every few months? Why do you post the same hateful way? Even if you do not put your birthdate in yuor profile I think we can figure out which "avatar is you Extinction/Salvation/NoPity. Give it a rest please.
18DELTA 05-25-08, 01:28 AM	Why do you post on different "Avatars" every few months? Why do you post the same hateful way? Even if you do not put your birthdate in yuor profile I think we can figure out which "avatar is you Extinction/Salvation/NoPity. Give it a rest please. -Because a certain someone goes and gets banned, so they create a new name probably with a new e-mail address. And the process starts all over again.:rolleyes: 18D:(
Rauric 05-25-08, 08:01 AM	-Because a certain someone goes and gets banned, so they create a new name probably with a new e-mail address. And the process starts all over again.:rolleyes: 18D:( Ah, so they do actually ban people around here. Tis good to know. Stay vigilant folks.:D
MerrikCale 05-26-08, 12:52 AM	Ah, so they do actually ban people around here. Tis good to know. Stay vigilant folks.:D like Karsus the Mad
NoPityForACoward 05-31-08, 11:02 AM	Why do you post on different "Avatars" every few months? Why do you post the same hateful way? Even if you do not put your birthdate in yuor profile I think we can figure out which "avatar is you Extinction/Salvation/NoPity. Give it a rest please. Where did you get Salvation from? I was under the impression it was CreationOmega. But uh, hey, I like that...has a nice tune to it. CreationSalvation...rofl. I bring no hate here buddy, you are bashing me constantly along with Rino. I'll make a deal with you, leave me alone for a while along with her, and I will leave. You can say that I won't, or you can at least give it a try. Also why do you say you can figure which avatar is mine? They are not different each time? Are they names the exact same (with the exception of EB and CO). All my names come from music bands, not DnD Elf and Goblins and Wizards. I do other stuff with my time bro, I get on like, a few hours out of the week? Here Rauric, this is what this newest avatar's name is from http://youtube.com/watch?v=dnd2fRqoqAE&feature=related Suicide Silence- No Pity For A Coward Btw..SEALS FTW!!! M4's>Crossbolts
MerrikCale 05-31-08, 12:07 PM	Where did you get Salvation from? I was under the impression it was CreationOmega. But uh, hey, I like that...has a nice tune to it. CreationSalvation...rofl. I bring no hate here buddy, you are bashing me constantly along with Rino. I'll make a deal with you, leave me alone for a while along with her, and I will leave. You can say that I won't, or you can at least give it a try. Also why do you say you can figure which avatar is mine? They are not different each time? Are they names the exact same (with the exception of EB and CO). All my names come from music bands, not DnD Elf and Goblins and Wizards. I do other stuff with my time bro, I get on like, a few hours out of the week? Here Rauric, this is what this newest avatar's name is from http://youtube.com/watch?v=dnd2fRqoqAE&feature=related Suicide Silence- No Pity For A Coward Btw..SEALS FTW!!! M4's>Crossbolts I believe he meant different name
NoPityForACoward 05-31-08, 12:16 PM	I believe he meant different name No? My other account he is reffering too is CreationOmega, but somehow he thinks it to be CreationSalvation. BTW: M4's>CrossBolts Nukes>Lolth Snipers>Archers Inferred>Invisibility Tanks>Spiders
Red_Wizard 05-31-08, 03:20 PM	Cool, good to know. Thread resolved. -RW
NoPityForACoward 05-31-08, 06:58 PM	Cool, good to know. Thread resolved. -RW Excellent, you conceed defeat to Seals handling Drow like small children in the battle field? Thread resolved indeed. I'm glad you opened your eyes. Now then, next: SAS>Red Wizards
Red_Wizard 05-31-08, 07:23 PM	Sure. Again, resolved. -RW
NoPityForACoward 05-31-08, 07:27 PM	Sure. Again, resolved. -RW Quoting on signiture that you admit defeat in the glory of guns. Heil to the bullet!
MerrikCale 05-31-08, 08:10 PM	Excellent, you conceed defeat to Seals handling Drow like small children in the battle field? You the heck cares?:confused:
NoPityForACoward 05-31-08, 08:13 PM	You the heck cares?:confused: Obviously this 30+ page topic, alot of people do.
Stigger 06-01-08, 11:42 AM	Or, alternately, we could just have a semi-obsessive love of arguement that is occassionally taken to unhealthy extremes, as this thread amply demonstrates...
NoPityForACoward 06-01-08, 12:09 PM	Or, alternately, we could just have a semi-obsessive love of arguement that is occassionally taken to unhealthy extremes, as this thread amply demonstrates... One that you are a hippocrite in for you have helped apply those "unheathly extreames" of posting and contributing to. How many post have you got on this topic buddy?
Stigger 06-01-08, 01:14 PM	Hypocritical? Note the use of the word 'we' there... which would include myself. I know I have a semi-obsessive love of arguement that is occassionally taken to an unhealthy extreme, what's your excuse? ;)
NoPityForACoward 06-01-08, 01:16 PM	what's your excuse? ;) I'm EB?
Stigger 06-01-08, 01:18 PM	No idea. Don't really care either. That was more of a question referring to your seeming love of arguement for its own sake, in this forum in general, not just this thread.
NoPityForACoward 06-01-08, 01:20 PM	No idea. Don't really care either. That was more of a question referring to your seeming love of arguement for its own sake, in this forum in general, not just this thread. I really did not understand anything you just said with all honesty. And uh, Drow suck!
Stigger 06-01-08, 01:22 PM	As in what's your excuse for the argumentative, somewhat confrontational attitude you adopt here? If you're going to be flinging around the word hypocrite, I think its a fair question in response. ;)
NoPityForACoward 06-01-08, 01:25 PM	As in what's your excuse for the argumentative, somewhat confrontational attitude you adopt here? If you're going to be flinging around the word hypocrite, I think its a fair question in response. ;) Let's get back on topic here since I brought back a semi-dead thread, but 33+ pages don't die easy. Now then, how long would it take a Drow Wizard to cast a fireball and how long would it take for a Seal to squeeze the trigger? Artemis dogded a fireball before, I doubt he could do the same for a bullet(s). "Fireball does more damage durr!" Yeah, and when you have a gernade launcher strapped on with that M4, you're done.
Stigger 06-01-08, 01:26 PM	Interesting dodge... whatever. No longer interested, but enjoy yourself nonetheless.
NoPityForACoward 06-01-08, 01:28 PM	Interesting dodge... whatever. No longer interested, but enjoy yourself nonetheless. I argue because I am right. How's that?
ORC_Wyvern 06-01-08, 07:47 PM	Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. Please return discussion to the topic of the thread, or it may need to be closed.
Rauric 06-01-08, 09:13 PM	If Tom Clancy is writing the story the SEALS win if RAS is writing it the drow win then Drizzt saves the SEALS. Pretty simple.
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 01:10 AM	If Tom Clancy is writing the story the SEALS win if RAS is writing it the drow win then Drizzt saves the SEALS. Pretty simple. That last part of Drizzt saving Seals I could see happen. Not joking either, I can really imagine that happening since he tries to save the world like some super paladin. Drizzt puts Lathander to shame.
Stigger 06-02-08, 01:12 AM	Some of the SEALs would probably die though at least with Clancy... Not sure about Marines or SF guys, but SEALs I could see him killing. Unless they happened to have a last name like Clark. :D
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 01:16 AM	Some of the SEALs would probably die though at least with Clancy... Not sure about Marines or SF guys, but SEALs I could see him killing. Unless they happened to have a last name like Clark. :D Um, "Not sure about SF guys". So Stigger, what do you think the Seals are? The national gaurd? (Psst, Special Forces) Yes he would have a few die, but it would be epic and whatever "Seal" he had as the main character would live to be a legend in his story vs the drow and win throughout the end.
Stigger 06-02-08, 01:45 AM	SF referring to US Army Special Forces, not SOCOM in general. :P
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 02:41 AM	SF referring to US Army Special Forces, not SOCOM in general. :P A gun is a gun. Bullets>Swords. If tom clancy wrote the novel, he'd laugh at the middle-aged weaponary and make it a 50 page color book of pure masacre slaughter of the drow. Matron mother: "Ilbilth, get him" *Points at 1 Seal out in plain view with 2 crossbow-men and 4 swordsmen* *2 Swords men flank the lone Seal* *She hears static radio communctions comming from the scout seal* *BAM! 2 Drow down* *Lone seal still in same postion, unmoving, making no movement* *"More Ilbilth?! Where?!" *A razor wire wraps around the matron mothers neck* *2 Crossbow men take a few steps back* *BOOM! Trip wire* "Mission acomplished, reporting back to HQ"
Stigger 06-02-08, 03:14 AM	Right... not getting into this discussion again, thankyouverymuch.
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 03:41 AM	Right... not getting into this discussion again, thankyouverymuch. That's a cool scenrio right? Give me that at leaste.
Zanan 06-02-08, 06:20 AM	That's a cool scenrio right? Give me that at leaste. No, it is not. :rolleyes:
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 06:26 AM	No, it is not. :rolleyes: Of course, when the description is of Drow losing, it's terrible.
Rauric 06-02-08, 07:04 AM	Some of the SEALs would probably die though at least with Clancy... Not sure about Marines or SF guys, but SEALs I could see him killing. Unless they happened to have a last name like Clark. :D Interesting. I am not a Clancy fan so this goes a bit over my head.
Zanan 06-02-08, 08:49 AM	Of course, when the description is of Drow losing, it's terrible. No, because you have no clue what drow and magic in general are capable of. You could easily substitute the drow with the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, the Harpers, or someone else.
Red_Wizard 06-02-08, 09:11 AM	Indeed, but I'll sum up his argument for you, and save everyone the trouble of further pressing him. "Drow are ****** pansys that should die because I said so" "I Have never read any ******* material on the rules, so therefore it doesn't matter to the argument" "Guns PWN because I don't know magic, so it doesn't matter if you do" "**** reading, I'm right, you all suck $%^$^&*&*(....." "Me > All of you" Etc. Summed up about 40 pages there. -RW
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 10:05 AM	No, because you have no clue what drow and magic in general are capable of. You could easily substitute the drow with the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, the Harpers, or someone else. And you could easily subsititute Seals with SaS, Rangers, or someone else.
Zanan 06-02-08, 10:29 AM	And you know nothing of fire-arms or what they are capable of in general, you could easily subsititute Seals with SaS, Rangers, or someone else. How did you acquire that knowledge? I just enjoyed the last six days at the Berlin (Germany) Air Show watching Spitfires and Mustangs, Eurofighters and Tornadoes, Phantoms and B 1s. I'd take a SIG 542 ahead of any other machine gun, though a spare Kalashnikov is always useful. You see, people on here can have many hobbies and sometimes even have a real life as well. But that is not to be discussed on here, as this is a FR board.
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 10:37 AM	I just enjoyed the last six days at the Berlin (Germany) Air Show watching Spitfires and Mustangs, Eurofighters and Tornadoes, Phantoms and B 1s. I'd take a SIG 542 ahead of any other machine gun, though a spare Kalashnikov is always useful. . So then, you have been shown the truth and no longer see the Drow filth as a threat among any fire-arm. And you heil to the .50 Cal? By the way, word on the street is Germany and Japan can not have anything other than a self-defense army after WW2. Most Japanees have never even seen a gun up close. Is this the same for Germany, or was I misled?
Zanan 06-02-08, 11:07 AM	So then, you have been shown the truth and no longer see the Drow filth as a threat among any fire-arm. And you heil to the .50 Cal? By the way, word on the street is Germany and Japan can not have anything other than a self-defense army after WW2. Most Japanees have never even seen a gun up close. Is this the same for Germany, or was I misled? No. People do serve in the army over here and always have, even since WW II. But that is no topic here. As for your argument, a drow group intent for murder will cloak themselves into invisibility (low key magic), silence (low key magic) and use a teleport spell (mid-level magic) to transport straight into the HQ of your SEAL squadron and end the lifes of their leaders before they know they are there. They will not even get the chance to draw they guns. Three moments later, they will go back where they came from ... And thus ends this debate.
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 11:22 AM	No. People do serve in the army over here and always have, even since WW II. But that is no topic here. As for your argument, a drow group intent for murder will cloak themselves into invisibility (low key magic), silence (low key magic) and use a teleport spell (mid-level magic) to transport straight into the HQ of your SEAL squadron and end the lifes of their leaders before they know they are there. They will not even get the chance to draw they guns. Three moments later, they will go back where they came from ... And thus ends this debate. No, you seem to think that the Seals will show themselves openly saying "It's time to duel!". When in reality, they are masters of camoflauge and will be seen nothing more than the enviorment to the drow, the underdark and their "invisibility" means nothing to thermal vision/night vision. Let's go with that rediculous scinerio of yours that they just teleport into the squadron.. 1: There is always a sniper watching over the squad from a far distance. 2: Radio communications work better than the silent hand drow sign language (Sniper scout would notify them of the drow activity) 3:There guns are always drawn, the 1st drow to slash his sword and lets say get a lucky hit is going to be shot down 4: If they somehow manage to pull off the impossible and kill them, they would pull the gernade pin straped to their equipment taking the Drow down along with them. 5: Seals set up premiters, Trip wires, Stationary turrets (on rare occations) 6: Let's see how a Drow raid party handles flash gernades...rofl
Stigger 06-02-08, 11:50 AM	Take my advice, just walk away Zanan... :blink: And no, its not a particularly interesting scenario... first off your forgetting muzzle flash giving away position to extremely light-sensitive drow, so remaining motionless isn't going to help much, secondly matrons don't leave cities without armies, and sorry, but they're not just going to sneak into a drow city without being noticed, much less get close enough to ambush a matron, and third and most unforgiveably you used M4s over MP-5N's... and on #3 you've just received a fail from me, so case closed, everyone tossed up their hands in disgust over that one, packed up, and went home without anyone getting killed, just to spite you. :P
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 11:57 AM	Take my advice, just walk away Zanan... :blink: And no, its not a particularly interesting scenario... first off your forgetting muzzle flash giving away position to extremely light-sensitive drow, so remaining motionless isn't going to help much, secondly matrons don't leave cities without armies, and sorry, but they're not just going to sneak into a drow city without being noticed, much less get close enough to ambush a matron, and third and most unforgiveably you used M4s over MP-5N's... and on #3 you've just received a fail from me, so case closed, everyone tossed up their hands in disgust over that one, packed up, and went home without anyone getting killed, just to spite you. :P Yes because when you "THROW" a flash band, the Seal is still holding it right? Let the muzzle give away the postion of the FLASH BAND and not the SEAL. It's not like a gun has 1 bullet per clip...let them bring their armies..marching in formation while the Seals pick the Drow off from a enviormental camoflauge area. HE gernade(High Explosive) solves the "army" problem. And when you have a Sniper, I don't know what you think is going to stop and AWP from blowing a matron mothers head back into Lloth's realm. And what would the Drow do when their Matron is dead? Leaderless? They are usually cocky and would probaly be arrogant in showing themselves in charge giving away and turning into a clear disadvatage.
Red_Wizard 06-02-08, 12:05 PM	No, you seem to think that the Seals will show themselves openly saying "It's time to duel!". And you seem to think the drow will run head on at a bunker of SEALS. IF we are to prove either force to be the superior, we must assume they both have equal knowledge of the other in the area. SEALS can sit and hide in thier holes forever, but without the intel backing their movement they can do little but twiddle their thumbs. When in reality, they are masters of camoflauge and will be seen nothing more than the enviorment to the drow, And in reality, the Drow don't even need to be within 100 miles of them to slip past their defenses. Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Teleport.htm), and Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensiondoor.htm) only need be on the same plane as them. And, while it may take a reclusive wizard 50 years to master their knowledge by studying ancient tombs, it can take perhaps a year of heavy adventuring to become of significantly notable power. This is more than comparable to a SEALs training. the underdark and their "invisibility" means nothing to thermal vision/night vision. Night Vision isn't comparable to Darkvision. Darkvision sees flawlessly in the dark, while Nightvision only improves the image greatly. Additionally Nightvision, and Thermal vision can not see through stone. A Drow need but hide behind a rock to mask their Thermal signature, and the SEALS are foiled. If you don't know how Thermal vision works, perhaps we should break for you to brush up on the material. Additionally, Invisibility means just that, so regardless of method of site, the drow are shrouded. Only magic can pierce magic. "Nuff said". Let's go with that rediculous scinerio of yours that they just teleport into the squadron.. Yes lets. maybe you'll finally realise how futile it would be. 1: There is always a sniper watching over the squad from a far distance. 1. I didn't realize that Snipers also kept watch down through miles of stone. I was also no aware that there was any ammunition in the world capable of piercing over a mile of stone. You are still assuming the Drow would fight fairly, and run at the SEALS blades drawn. Your folly, not ours. 2: Radio communications work better than the silent hand drow sign language (Sniper scout would notify them of the drow activity) Again, they didn't come from the front. they appeared right in the tent. Sniper never saw them come. If he's lucky, they left him alive to mock the death of his comrades. If not, then a simple sphere of silence dropped over him, instantly blocks all communication, and silences the sound of any ensuing fire. He is dead within seconds, as a single invisible Drow can dimension door in, stab your sniper in the back of the neck, and be gone again without breaking a sweat. 3:There guns are always drawn, the 1st drow to slash his sword and lets say get a lucky hit is going to be shot down Wrong again. Soldiers do not sleep with their guns in hand, and the safety off. And the Drow would not attack them while they were awake. Your sniper is dead, not communication came through, and now there are anywhere from 5-15 armed Drow standing silently in the room. Silent hand communication means the Drow can now mock their victims. 4: If they somehow manage to pull off the impossible and kill them, they would pull the gernade pin straped to their equipment taking the Drow down along with them. How can dead men pull pins? And as you said, children can use some weapons, so what is stopping militaristic Drow from simply picking up on, and riddling the SEALS where they sleep? 5: Seals set up premiters, Trip wires, Stationary turrets (on rare occations) They set up perimeters against foes who have to obey the laws of Physics. Magic spits in physics face, and then smiles while killing it. With magic you can't even trust gravity. Lets say both sides are in a barren wasteland, where the SEALS seem to have the advantage of range. Well Reverse Gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reversegravity.htm) just sent your boys skyward. Hope they can fly, and there wasn't a chopper about them. ;) But wait, lets make it more humiliating for them. They get beaten by one 5th level Wizard. Invisible, that Wizard uses the spell Suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm) to have you Sniper friend pick off his own guys. Damn shame too they they had a seeming traitor in their midst. ;) 6: Let's see how a Drow raid party handles flash gernades...rofl Unless the SEALS through them at the floor every thirty seconds, and have an unlimited supply of them, I can't see how they could possible catch the Drow in the burst. I wonder how the SEALS fair with Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm).:P I'll await you yelling fit. -RW p.s. Keep your sexual revelations off the boards. It's PG 13 here. p.p.s. If you knew anything of war, you could look back less than 100 years and see a prime example of where the Pen was Mightier than the sword. Ignorance is your strong point though, so I'll give you two final links. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles http://www.answers.com/topic/washington-naval-arms-limitation-treaty Read them before commenting please.
Stigger 06-02-08, 12:09 PM	Right... and I'm sure they'll probably descend upon the myriad drow corpses and drink the blood of the fallen, desecrate the corpses with more bullets, and then liberally spread grenade traps among the fallen to kill even more drow who come to look for their buddies, all the while a metal headbanger soundtrack is playing somewhere in the distance...
Red_Wizard 06-02-08, 12:09 PM	Yes because when you "THROW" a flash band, the Seal is still holding it right? Let the muzzle give away the postion of the FLASH BAND and not the SEAL. It's not like a gun has 1 bullet per clip...let them bring their armies..marching in formation while the Seals pick the Drow off from a enviormental camoflauge area. HE gernade(High Explosive) solves the "army" problem. And when you have a Sniper, I don't know what you think is going to stop and AWP from blowing a matron mothers head back into Lloth's realm. And what would the Drow do when their Matron is dead? Leaderless? They are usually cocky and would probaly be arrogant in showing themselves in charge giving away and turning into a clear disadvatage. You even remember when I told you that bullets would fly clear through someone with even "Lesser Iron Guard" cast upon themselves? I bet not as you don't read anything valid to this argument, so you'll have overlooked anything that proves devastating to your pre adolescent views. ;) They'd not even need armor to walk up and **** slap the SEALS into oblivion. :P -RW
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 01:11 PM	RW, what makes you keep wanting to give the advantage to the Drow? Not only do you say it takes place in FR, but as well as in the underdark, and vs an Drow army backed by a matron mother. If you are going to go that far, why not let me include nuclear warheads? Or we can say they are on the surface in broad day-light in an open filed 60 yards apart and the SEALS have Proxy Mines set all along the fields. Oh but wait, according to you, all Drow can Teleport including those who are melee classes...nice logic.
Red_Wizard 06-02-08, 01:18 PM	lmao. You had an hour and that's the best retort you could come up with? *Shakes head* I accept your defeat then. No hard feelings and all that. -RW
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 01:22 PM	lmao. You had an hour and that's the best retort you could come up with? *Shakes head* I accept your defeat then. No hard feelings and all that. -RW I re-edited my post, re-look, re-post. Your logic fails kid.
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 01:31 PM	Also RW, you do understand that elves don't just teleport. They must channel the spells, speak it, as soon as he stops teleporting to cast his attack spell, Seal takes out his deagle and puts one in his dome.
Red_Wizard 06-02-08, 01:32 PM	Editing after a response is your shortcoming not mine. Come back when you have a real defense though, and maybe I'll be kind enough to let you try for a round two. ;) *Pats head* -RW
Red_Wizard 06-02-08, 01:34 PM	Also RW, you do understand that elves don't just teleport. They must channel the spells, speak it, as soon as he stops teleporting to cast his attack spell, Seal takes out his deagle and puts one in his dome. Elves don't. Wizards can. The Wizard teleports the fighters in, and keeps them invisible. Logic +1 as you put it. ;) And stop assuming they do this while everyone is awake. -RW
NoPityForACoward 06-02-08, 01:40 PM	Elves don't. Wizards can. The Wizard teleports the fighters in, and keeps them invisible. Logic +1 as you put it. ;) And stop assuming they do this while everyone is awake. -RW Yeah right, because if the SEALs are there, they are not going to attack the Drow until they get some rest first right? Because no Spec Ops ever does his mission without sleeping on the job first. According to you, every single Drow in this scenario consist of this Godly class: Expert meele fighter/Arch-wizard/Master Strategist/High alchemist/enchanter/Preist/Preistess of Lloth/Armor and Weaponary and Casting tools that put the first noble house of the underdark to shame. Yeah, I agree, the Drow would win. Why not just take away the SEALs guns and say they are brainless monkeys while your at it?
Red_Wizard 06-02-08, 01:40 PM	RW, what makes you keep wanting to give the advantage to the Drow? Um, the fact they have every advantage? :P Not only do you say it takes place in FR, but as well as in the underdark, and vs an Drow army backed by a matron mother. I dare you to quote where I said this. Go on, give it a shot. ;) What? Nothing? Good, cause I didn't :P. I gave your SEALS the ground they fully prepared, and only made the underdark reference as on possible scenario. The range of Teleport means they can come from anywhere they wish. If you are going to go that far, why not let me include nuclear warheads? You know what? Have them. Have 40 tactical nukes if you want. Cause guess what? You still lose. :P You need intel to tell you where to drop your weapons. And I tell you what junior, you have none. Not one lick of intel for the SEALS, but the Drow wizards can scry you left right and centre. Or we can say they are on the surface in broad day-light in an open filed 60 yards apart and the SEALS have Proxy Mines set all along the fields. Oh but wait, according to you, all Drow can Teleport including those who are melee classes...nice logic. Never said ALL Drow. But Drow Wizards can. And Teleport can be used on multiple targets. Thus the Wizards can move in the Warriors. Simple logic for those who know this little one. But I have also said in the past, if you care to re-read the thread, that the SEALS can win, if you make the situation rediculous. But then, Swords beat a jammed gun, so maybe I should start assuming all the guns jam at the same time. Sound fair? Probably not, so why assume the Drow come any less than fully prepared? :P -RW
Red_Wizard 06-02-08, 01:45 PM	Yeah right, because if the SEALs are there, they are not going to attack the Drow until they get some rest first right? Because no Spec Ops ever does his mission without sleeping on the job first. According to you, every single Drow in this scenario consist of this Godly class: Expert meele fighter/Arch-wizard/Master Strategist/High alchemist/enchanter/Preist/Preistess of Lloth/Armor and Weaponary and Casting tools that put the first noble house of the underdark to shame. Yeah, I agree, the Drow would win. 1. Are we assuming both sides are prepared? IE: Awake, guns loaded, locations picked for holding, spells ready, ETC. 2. Are we assuming they both know they're fighting one another? 3. are we assuming they have seen one another fight before? If any of these three are no, then there is no contest, as you cannot FAIRLY -- I know you hate things when they're fair-- draw any conclusion. If however you concede these three points, then for every advantage the SEALS have, the Drow have no less than three counters for it. If you knew the rules, you'd know this. You don't, so you can't defend against that statement. Do you think lawyers that go to court with nothing but "I should win, cause I'm a lawyers" statements can possibly hope to be anything but laughed out of there? -RW
Red_Wizard 06-02-08, 01:53 PM	Yeah right, because if the SEALs are there, they are not going to attack the Drow until they get some rest first right? You need intel to complete the mission. You have no intel on where the Drow are located. Imagine trying to pinpoint a fugitive if he could flit from place to place around the world. We don't currently have the technology to monitor such movement. Because no Spec Ops ever does his mission without sleeping on the job first. No, but they have to sleep sometime. The Drow have the luxury of watching and waiting for them. The SEALS have to either kill them, or flee if they want to survive. According to you, every single Drow in this scenario consist of this Godly class: Expert meele fighter/Arch-wizard/Master Strategist/High alchemist/enchanter/Preist/Preistess of Lloth/Armor and Weaponary and Casting tools that put the first noble house of the underdark to shame. They don't even need to be more than 7th level each to do what I say. They can accomplish all I suggest with single classes, and the right selection of spells. Yeah, I agree, the Drow would win. There, doesn't that feel good? I'll sig this for you, so you can always be reminded. ;) Why not just take away the SEALs guns and say they are brainless monkeys while your at it? Why not take away the Drows magic, and say they are brainless monkeys while YOU'RE at it? ;) It's what you've been trying to do. Tell us how rediculous the Drow are, when reduced to you're level of reasoning. Yep, seems logical that anyone would run blindly at a foe bunkered in with projectile weapons. Mmmhmmm. *Shakes head* -RW P.S. As I said with the "Ironguard" spell. Even running at them blindly would prove an easy win. The ammunition passes through them. ;)
Zanan 06-02-08, 02:07 PM	Take my advice, just walk away Zanan... :blink: NAy, I don't walk away, I stride away!
Stigger 06-02-08, 03:08 PM	Well, that's much better than walking... depends on the hips though, whether its a good yummy stride or just a plain old boring one. :D
18DELTA 06-02-08, 04:56 PM	-:dancin: :mage: :pumpkin: :mage: :pumpkin: :mage: :pumpkin: :mage: :pumpkin: :mage: :pumpkin: :dancin:- 18D:P
Zanan 06-02-08, 05:38 PM	Well, that's much better than walking... depends on the hips though, whether its a good yummy stride or just a plain old boring one. :D Well ... if you can lay your hands on Dragon 176, you'd see the hips too. And that big black widow spider ...
Stigger 06-03-08, 02:26 AM	Pass, don't like spiders... Though semi-on-topic, look into serious spelunking and perhaps you'll understand why the SEALs would be utterly screwed in any underdark encounter... above ground, I'd give them a slight advantage, underground they're toast.
Diffan 06-03-08, 04:52 AM	You know, it might actually be entertaining to see someone roll up some Modern d20 SEAL characters against some drow characters and see who wins through different scenarios. SEALs would of course use hi/tech gadgets while Drow use spells, and of course this would be from a game experience and not a reflection (in any way) what would happen in an actual live encounter. But since we're discussing this on a message board designed for gaming pleasure, I think i'd be fun.
Suin Bahhar 06-03-08, 07:27 AM	This was done around page 9 or 10 or so. The assaulting drowteam (I believe it was about CR 20) won twice out of a best of 3.
ORC_Clayben 06-03-08, 07:31 AM	Locked as per VCL request. :)