Starym Family [Archive] - Wizards Community

Starym Family [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
boards
09-08-07, 10:43 PM After Josidya Starym left Myth Drannor to get the artblade, some Starym Family members came from Evermeet to take control of the family. One of them went to Moander with the moonblade and had it corrupted so that he could draw it. Did the leaders of Cormanthor discover this, or did they decide to leave on their own to form the EV? If they did find out did they issue a proclomation and attempt to hunt them down. Were any of the Starym still living in Evermeet as a political entity, and if yes were they affected by the Moonblades corruption (ie following the member of the family that held it?
GothicDan
09-08-07, 10:47 PM Well, we know that the first 'wave' of Staryms were Gold Elves. Josidiah was one of the last. By the time they assassinated Irithyl, they were by and large completely Silver Elves. All of those who had passed on to other Realms were Gold Elves, by far and large.

Being as Gold Elves traditionally couldn't use Moonblades, I doubt they were corrupted by its presence later on. But I could be wrong.
Lord Karsus
09-09-07, 09:59 AM Did the leaders of Cormanthor discover this, or did they decide to leave on their own to form the EV?

-The Starym left Myth Drannor basically in response to Coronal Eltargrim's proclimation that the city was to be opened to all. It was sometime after this period that they, along with four other families who did the same, founded the Eldreth Veluuthra.
danielmayer
09-09-07, 06:46 PM The Starym Moonblade (in its corrupted form) has been stated in some 2E Sourcbook... Volos Guide to magical things all want to have? I suppose.
Afaik, some Staryms (the moon elven branch) did much in the Weeping Wars to defend Myth Drannor, so they're not all bad... :) Josidiah wasn't the only nice guy in that clan.
As stated in LEoF:
"262 DR: Five major houses, [...]Starym[...], left MD for purely elven holdings in Cormanthyr or elsewhere."
The corrupted Mblade was not known to anyone.

Greetings,
D
Lord Karsus
09-09-07, 07:04 PM The Starym Moonblade (in its corrupted form) has been stated in some 2E Sourcbook... Volos Guide to magical things all want to have?

-Volo's Guide to All Things Magical. ;)
danielmayer
09-10-07, 03:52 AM Thanks LK,
I detected an error in my last post:
It needs to be spelled "The corruption of the MBlade is not known to anyone." :)
Alediran
09-10-07, 10:55 AM All evil Staryms should have died in the Weeping War for what they did to Myth Drannor, the one who corrupted the Moonblade was the same elf who assasinated Aravae Irithyl (Eltargrim's niece), leaving Cormanthor without a strong leader. That was the starting point for Myth Drannor's fall.

And newbies say that Gold Elves = evil, Moon elves = Good. The impudence! The biggest group of good elves from Cormanthor where the Golds (in your face MT :p).
Lord Karsus
09-10-07, 12:33 PM -I never liked that fact that is was revealed who killed Aravae. I liked the whole unsolvable mystery thing.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
09-12-07, 12:51 PM -I never liked that fact that is was revealed who killed Aravae. I liked the whole unsolvable mystery thing.

Me too.
Ianten_Silverblade
09-12-07, 10:03 PM That was the starting point for Myth Drannor's fall.

My friend, the fall began long long ago at the beginning of the Crown Wars. In short, the elves are somewhat if not entirely responsible for the forces of good being at such a tremendous disadvantage during the recent years in the Realms (during the forces of evil's rise to power [such as Szass Tam, King Obould Manyarrows, and the Shades]). Why you ask? Simple.

During the Crown Wars the Gold Elves and the Drow (well, before Corellon cursed them to be Drow [I don' t really know what they were called before they were Drow) causes the entire race to suffer such calamities and devastation of death and destruction that their entire race was utterly dismayed. What did the elves do in fact when all of the Crown Wars were over? Stay and continue the fight?

Nope, they signaled the Retreat and that event alone is what is responsible for evil's endurance. Had the elves been vigilant and had not considered themselves the "ultimate race" or the "ubervitch" as some gold elves still might consider themselves as then Faerun would be much more prepared to handle the Shades or even those monstrosities that broke the Sharn Wall (can't remember their names either0).

In fact, most of the blame rests completely on the gold elves. They instigated the Crown Wars and were a major reason why the Drow turned to Wendoni for help (and thus worship) of Lolth. It was the gold elves who signaled the retreat and the gold elves who were responsible for leaving Myth Drannor without an heir (of course that female moon elf high mage who had the Crown Blade also bears some of the blame for Myth Drannor's fall as well but that's beside the point).

All in all, the gold elven branch of the elf race has been arrogant and prideful and almost always pride does come before the fall. I fear Faerun or the elves as a whole have not yet come to realize how much the gold elves mistakes has truly cost the good folk when fighting the good fight.
Lord Karsus
09-13-07, 12:50 AM -That is full of so many glaring holes and errors, it makes me laugh. :D

:: Opens a Gate for GD ::

;)
GothicDan
09-13-07, 08:35 AM During the Crown Wars the Gold Elves and the Drow (well, before Corellon cursed them to be Drow [I don' t really know what they were called before they were Drow) causes the entire race to suffer such calamities and devastation of death and destruction that their entire race was utterly dismayed. What did the elves do in fact when all of the Crown Wars were over? Stay and continue the fight?

Nope, they signaled the Retreat and that event alone is what is responsible for evil's endurance. Had the elves been vigilant and had not considered themselves the "ultimate race" or the "ubervitch" as some gold elves still might consider themselves as then Faerun would be much more prepared to handle the Shades or even those monstrosities that broke the Sharn Wall (can't remember their names either0).

The Retreat happened thousands of years after the Crown Wars, though the founding of Evermeet generally is thought to have preceded it (before the Sundering, Aryvandaar was originally Sharlarion, for example - named after one of the most famous MOON Elves). While some Elves did prefer to retreat to Evermeet over the many millennium, this was not the Retreat.

The number of powerful, long-lived Elven cultures, empires, and settlements after the Crown Wars is incredibly long. Take a read through Cormanthyr and LEoF. Cormanthyr's prime isn't even that long ago, in the grand scheme of things - there's some Elves still alive who remember being there!

As to the Gold Elves? Culturally, they feel their way is superior - which is pretty much a normal historical pattern for those who hold or once held great power (Rome, for example). But it's a terrible analogy to call them the "ubermensch," a term coined by Nietzsche, who was a notorious, vehement atheist. The Sun Elves genuinely feel they are DIVINELY granted the right to uphold all that is most ELVEN, by the Seldarine. And considering their overwhelming prevalence of High Magi and high Priests (particularly of Corellon), it's not at all unfathomable to interpret this as a passive agreement from Corellon. The Coronal of Arvandor isn't going to allow his most ranking Priests to be spouting things that are entirely false.

(And I have my own philosophy as to WHY the Sun Elves actually BETTER represent Corellon's dogmas of freedom and choice.)

n fact, most of the blame rests completely on the gold elves. They instigated the Crown Wars and were a major reason why the Drow turned to Wendoni for help (and thus worship) of Lolth. It was the gold elves who signaled the retreat and the gold elves who were responsible for leaving Myth Drannor without an heir (of course that female moon elf high mage who had the Crown Blade also bears some of the blame for Myth Drannor's fall as well but that's beside the point).

All in all, the gold elven branch of the elf race has been arrogant and prideful and almost always pride does come before the fall. I fear Faerun or the elves as a whole have not yet come to realize how much the gold elves mistakes has truly cost the good folk when fighting the good fight.

Ilythiir burned 3 Elven nations to the ground - razed them - before Aryvandaar ever shows a blip of corruption on the timelines. And they were also worshiping, in at least a commonly accepted way, dark entities like Ghaunadaur into their culture before the Sun and Moon Elves even arrived in Faerun.

And, as I pointed out, Sharlarion was originally Aryvandaar. We have no suggestions of corrupt, militaristic, or uncivil actions by Aryvandaar prior to House Vyshaan's rise to power, and we've only seen Sharlarion referenced in the Evermeet novel. It, again, gives only a picture of a magically powerful, long-established, proud Elven empire - but no fiendish influence or dark pacts or the like.

Also, House Starym was a Moon Elf House when it helped found the Eldreth Veluuthra. And there's Elaith. And the Moon Elf (.. Fire, something) who rather stupidly dived head-first into the portal to the Abyss and drew Lolth's attention back to the world of Abeir-Toril. Not evil, but certainly showing a tendency for recklessness that's more commonly associated with the Silvers than Golds.

Kimil Nimesin, House Vyshaan, and (part) of the EV do not 'cancel out' the significance of Durothil, Vhoori, the Simbul (originally a Sun Elf!), Ulair, and Eltargrim, not to mention the propensity of GOOD-aligned Sun Elven Clerics of Corellon.

Nor does Elaith and House Starym cancel out the virtue of Amlaruil, Sharlario, and House Moonflower.

I truly grow tired of having these conversations, though. I just don't understand how people come to the conclusions they do.

[And the starting points of Myth Drannor's fall were really the haphazardly coordinated portals chipping away at the Mythal and 3 Nycaloths floating over the city.]

PS: Without the Gold Elves' somewhat zealous dedication to the Arcane arts, and High Magic in particular, I shudder to think what would have happened to the Tel'Quessir over the years. The fact that Moon Elves (other likely candidate for arcane casters) are much more likely to multiclass, meander, and spread their attentions thin, means that overall Elven society would not be nearly as magically integrated as it's historically been.
Lord Karsus
09-13-07, 10:40 AM And the Moon Elf (.. Fire, something) who rather stupidly dived head-first into the portal to the Abyss and drew Lolth's attention back to the world of Abeir-Toril.

-Kethryllia Amarallis.
SATA
09-13-07, 02:13 PM My friend, the fall began long long ago at the beginning of the Crown Wars. In short, the elves are somewhat if not entirely responsible for the forces of good being at such a tremendous disadvantage during the recent years in the Realms (during the forces of evil's rise to power [such as Szass Tam, King Obould Manyarrows, and the Shades]). Why you ask? Simple.

During the Crown Wars the Gold Elves and the Drow (well, before Corellon cursed them to be Drow [I don' t really know what they were called before they were Drow) causes the entire race to suffer such calamities and devastation of death and destruction that their entire race was utterly dismayed. What did the elves do in fact when all of the Crown Wars were over? Stay and continue the fight?

Nope, they signaled the Retreat and that event alone is what is responsible for evil's endurance. Had the elves been vigilant and had not considered themselves the "ultimate race" or the "ubervitch" as some gold elves still might consider themselves as then Faerun would be much more prepared to handle the Shades or even those monstrosities that broke the Sharn Wall (can't remember their names either0).

In fact, most of the blame rests completely on the gold elves. They instigated the Crown Wars and were a major reason why the Drow turned to Wendoni for help (and thus worship) of Lolth. It was the gold elves who signaled the retreat and the gold elves who were responsible for leaving Myth Drannor without an heir (of course that female moon elf high mage who had the Crown Blade also bears some of the blame for Myth Drannor's fall as well but that's beside the point).

All in all, the gold elven branch of the elf race has been arrogant and prideful and almost always pride does come before the fall. I fear Faerun or the elves as a whole have not yet come to realize how much the gold elves mistakes has truly cost the good folk when fighting the good fight.

With all due respect Ianten_Silverblade, I have to add to the comments of LK and GD that, now that you read the reason why you were mistaken about the issues and events that led to the Fall of Myth Drannor and that the Gold Elves are not responsible as you portrait. Is weird how you complain about the elves and blame them and call them names and at the same time wish they never Retreat cuz that way they would be here and there to help fight the good fight. I guess that all by yourself have them in the top as "the ultimate race".
Alediran
09-13-07, 04:08 PM GD, I have to disagree in one point about the Fall of Myth Drannor. The Nicaloths where the ones attacking Myth Drannor. But if the had tried doing that during Eltargrim's life they wouldn't had stand a chance. When they attacked they had a powerfull advantage, Cormanthyr was divided, without a strong leader and it's luster was already diminishing.

If Eltargrim and the Shrinshee where in Myth Drannor during the Weeping War, the allied forces would have been more effective to counter the Army of Darkness. And the proof of this is that even with it's might weakened, Myth Drannor almost won the War, it's heroes killed the Trio Nefarious (half the army with only fourteen strikes of a hammer and one of the 'loths seconds later)
Aldareth
09-14-07, 02:38 AM Kimil Nimesin, House Vyshaan, and (part) of the EV do not 'cancel out' the significance of Durothil, Vhoori, the Simbul (originally a Sun Elf!), Ulair, and Eltargrim, not to mention the propensity of GOOD-aligned Sun Elven Clerics of Corellon.

you mean the Srinshee right?
Karsus the Mad
09-14-07, 10:08 AM Cormanthyr was divided, without a strong leader and it's luster was already diminishing.
Largely attributed to Sun Elves refusing other races and non-sun elves to attempt the claiming ceremony, after every sun elf that attempted to draw the crownblade failed. I still agree with GD's assessment tho'; a few bad apples isn't exactly a proper base for analysis. Then again, neither are a few good apples, but meh.
danielmayer
09-15-07, 06:09 PM If Eltargrim and the Shrinshee where in Myth Drannor during the Weeping War, the allied forces would have been more effective to counter the Army of Darkness. And the proof of this is that even with it's might weakened, Myth Drannor almost won the War, it's heroes killed the Trio Nefarious (half the army with only fourteen strikes of a hammer and one of the 'loths seconds later)

In fact, I have to disagree with both of you: It has been stated more than once in the 2E-sources that nearly all *really* strong spellcasters left the city because of the prediction/divination of one of the Seven Wizards, afaik. Imho, the Fall of MD was nothing less than the epitome of the self-fullfilled prophecy. The Seven had left, some of the Windsong had left, the Shrinshee had left (ok, other reasons, but anyway...), I can't recall the others at the moment, but most of them were named in the sources (whole clans left, rember?). Eltargrimm or not - MD had simply not enough strong mages left. If they hadn't left, the "Forces of Good" would've been strong enough to repel the attack.

If at least I'd been there.... could've been enough additional power to save Josidiah, multiplying effects after that day...
Sad, so sad... :weep:
GothicDan
09-15-07, 06:27 PM Yes, I meant the Srinshee. Sorry.

And why disagree with me? I never stated why I thought the strong spellcasters left. There still still plenty left to have handled a horde containing all of, what, 1 or 2 powerful wizards? - if the Mythal hadn't been corrupted. Honestly, under any set of rules, the fraction of the city's power that was still left could have repulsed the invading forces, ESPECIALLY given the way Elven High Mages were fully statted in full power in Cormanthyr.

Truly, it makes me pretty sure that, despite the Fall of Myth Drannor product's accounting (and it was a good one), the Fall itself WAS fate (or at least someone/something trying to control destiny, since Ed has said fate itself isn't an actual force on Abeir-Toril).

As to the Sun Elven division - well, you could just as easily have said that it was the OTHER races who tried to wrest control from a Realm that had had Sun Elven leadership since its inception (or there might have been one Moon Elf in there...) that caused the division. Heck, I would say that. How many presidents have we had that were born outside of our country?

Almost ALL national leaders that were voted/accepted into office WITHOUT a lot of aggression and violence were from the native cultural stock. I honestly would never feel comfortable being ruled by a completely different species, who literally, neurologically, think and FEEL things a different way.
danielmayer
09-17-07, 11:07 AM How many presidents have we had that were born outside of our country?
The first one at least, I'd say :D
But the next one is waiting:
He "will be back"... :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus
09-17-07, 01:03 PM The first one at least, I'd say :D

-George Washington was born in Virginia, which technically would be within our country, if you figure that that American colonies are technically within our state currently.
DarkSongKnight
09-17-07, 01:10 PM I also thought that the Fall of Myth Drannor came about as a result that most of it's citizens had forgotten the dream of Eltargrim, and that they took for granted the city itself. While yes, many mages and artists left, the city could have survived that and flourished. It was when the ego of the individual outweighed the "for the good of the people" that Myth Drannor began to fall, as many began pursuing their own goals, and not contributing to the livelihood of the city.

The Srinshee I think said something along the lines of that...
So in a way, the citizens began the erosion of the city... They might have found peace again, IF the Trio Nefarious hadn't come along. In the state the city was in, when fiends began attacking it, what else was there to do? With most citizens pursuing their own goals, they probably felt little obligation to the city. The natural choice was to flee.

The "fate" seemingly involved in the fall of the city could be seen as natural selection, perhaps?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boards 09-08-07, 10:43 PM	After Josidya Starym left Myth Drannor to get the artblade, some Starym Family members came from Evermeet to take control of the family. One of them went to Moander with the moonblade and had it corrupted so that he could draw it. Did the leaders of Cormanthor discover this, or did they decide to leave on their own to form the EV? If they did find out did they issue a proclomation and attempt to hunt them down. Were any of the Starym still living in Evermeet as a political entity, and if yes were they affected by the Moonblades corruption (ie following the member of the family that held it?
GothicDan 09-08-07, 10:47 PM	Well, we know that the first 'wave' of Staryms were Gold Elves. Josidiah was one of the last. By the time they assassinated Irithyl, they were by and large completely Silver Elves. All of those who had passed on to other Realms were Gold Elves, by far and large. Being as Gold Elves traditionally couldn't use Moonblades, I doubt they were corrupted by its presence later on. But I could be wrong.
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 09:59 AM	Did the leaders of Cormanthor discover this, or did they decide to leave on their own to form the EV? -The Starym left Myth Drannor basically in response to Coronal Eltargrim's proclimation that the city was to be opened to all. It was sometime after this period that they, along with four other families who did the same, founded the Eldreth Veluuthra.
danielmayer 09-09-07, 06:46 PM	The Starym Moonblade (in its corrupted form) has been stated in some 2E Sourcbook... Volos Guide to magical things all want to have? I suppose. Afaik, some Staryms (the moon elven branch) did much in the Weeping Wars to defend Myth Drannor, so they're not all bad... :) Josidiah wasn't the only nice guy in that clan. As stated in LEoF: "262 DR: Five major houses, [...]Starym[...], left MD for purely elven holdings in Cormanthyr or elsewhere." The corrupted Mblade was not known to anyone. Greetings, D
Lord Karsus 09-09-07, 07:04 PM	The Starym Moonblade (in its corrupted form) has been stated in some 2E Sourcbook... Volos Guide to magical things all want to have? -Volo's Guide to All Things Magical. ;)
danielmayer 09-10-07, 03:52 AM	Thanks LK, I detected an error in my last post: It needs to be spelled "The corruption of the MBlade is not known to anyone." :)
Alediran 09-10-07, 10:55 AM	All evil Staryms should have died in the Weeping War for what they did to Myth Drannor, the one who corrupted the Moonblade was the same elf who assasinated Aravae Irithyl (Eltargrim's niece), leaving Cormanthor without a strong leader. That was the starting point for Myth Drannor's fall. And newbies say that Gold Elves = evil, Moon elves = Good. The impudence! The biggest group of good elves from Cormanthor where the Golds (in your face MT :p).
Lord Karsus 09-10-07, 12:33 PM	-I never liked that fact that is was revealed who killed Aravae. I liked the whole unsolvable mystery thing.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-12-07, 12:51 PM	-I never liked that fact that is was revealed who killed Aravae. I liked the whole unsolvable mystery thing. Me too.
Ianten_Silverblade 09-12-07, 10:03 PM	That was the starting point for Myth Drannor's fall. My friend, the fall began long long ago at the beginning of the Crown Wars. In short, the elves are somewhat if not entirely responsible for the forces of good being at such a tremendous disadvantage during the recent years in the Realms (during the forces of evil's rise to power [such as Szass Tam, King Obould Manyarrows, and the Shades]). Why you ask? Simple. During the Crown Wars the Gold Elves and the Drow (well, before Corellon cursed them to be Drow [I don' t really know what they were called before they were Drow) causes the entire race to suffer such calamities and devastation of death and destruction that their entire race was utterly dismayed. What did the elves do in fact when all of the Crown Wars were over? Stay and continue the fight? Nope, they signaled the Retreat and that event alone is what is responsible for evil's endurance. Had the elves been vigilant and had not considered themselves the "ultimate race" or the "ubervitch" as some gold elves still might consider themselves as then Faerun would be much more prepared to handle the Shades or even those monstrosities that broke the Sharn Wall (can't remember their names either0). In fact, most of the blame rests completely on the gold elves. They instigated the Crown Wars and were a major reason why the Drow turned to Wendoni for help (and thus worship) of Lolth. It was the gold elves who signaled the retreat and the gold elves who were responsible for leaving Myth Drannor without an heir (of course that female moon elf high mage who had the Crown Blade also bears some of the blame for Myth Drannor's fall as well but that's beside the point). All in all, the gold elven branch of the elf race has been arrogant and prideful and almost always pride does come before the fall. I fear Faerun or the elves as a whole have not yet come to realize how much the gold elves mistakes has truly cost the good folk when fighting the good fight.
Lord Karsus 09-13-07, 12:50 AM	-That is full of so many glaring holes and errors, it makes me laugh. :D :: Opens a Gate for GD :: ;)
GothicDan 09-13-07, 08:35 AM	During the Crown Wars the Gold Elves and the Drow (well, before Corellon cursed them to be Drow [I don' t really know what they were called before they were Drow) causes the entire race to suffer such calamities and devastation of death and destruction that their entire race was utterly dismayed. What did the elves do in fact when all of the Crown Wars were over? Stay and continue the fight? Nope, they signaled the Retreat and that event alone is what is responsible for evil's endurance. Had the elves been vigilant and had not considered themselves the "ultimate race" or the "ubervitch" as some gold elves still might consider themselves as then Faerun would be much more prepared to handle the Shades or even those monstrosities that broke the Sharn Wall (can't remember their names either0). The Retreat happened thousands of years after the Crown Wars, though the founding of Evermeet generally is thought to have preceded it (before the Sundering, Aryvandaar was originally Sharlarion, for example - named after one of the most famous MOON Elves). While some Elves did prefer to retreat to Evermeet over the many millennium, this was not the Retreat. The number of powerful, long-lived Elven cultures, empires, and settlements after the Crown Wars is incredibly long. Take a read through Cormanthyr and LEoF. Cormanthyr's prime isn't even that long ago, in the grand scheme of things - there's some Elves still alive who remember being there! As to the Gold Elves? Culturally, they feel their way is superior - which is pretty much a normal historical pattern for those who hold or once held great power (Rome, for example). But it's a terrible analogy to call them the "ubermensch," a term coined by Nietzsche, who was a notorious, vehement atheist. The Sun Elves genuinely feel they are DIVINELY granted the right to uphold all that is most ELVEN, by the Seldarine. And considering their overwhelming prevalence of High Magi and high Priests (particularly of Corellon), it's not at all unfathomable to interpret this as a passive agreement from Corellon. The Coronal of Arvandor isn't going to allow his most ranking Priests to be spouting things that are entirely false. (And I have my own philosophy as to WHY the Sun Elves actually BETTER represent Corellon's dogmas of freedom and choice.) n fact, most of the blame rests completely on the gold elves. They instigated the Crown Wars and were a major reason why the Drow turned to Wendoni for help (and thus worship) of Lolth. It was the gold elves who signaled the retreat and the gold elves who were responsible for leaving Myth Drannor without an heir (of course that female moon elf high mage who had the Crown Blade also bears some of the blame for Myth Drannor's fall as well but that's beside the point). All in all, the gold elven branch of the elf race has been arrogant and prideful and almost always pride does come before the fall. I fear Faerun or the elves as a whole have not yet come to realize how much the gold elves mistakes has truly cost the good folk when fighting the good fight. Ilythiir burned 3 Elven nations to the ground - razed them - before Aryvandaar ever shows a blip of corruption on the timelines. And they were also worshiping, in at least a commonly accepted way, dark entities like Ghaunadaur into their culture before the Sun and Moon Elves even arrived in Faerun. And, as I pointed out, Sharlarion was originally Aryvandaar. We have no suggestions of corrupt, militaristic, or uncivil actions by Aryvandaar prior to House Vyshaan's rise to power, and we've only seen Sharlarion referenced in the Evermeet novel. It, again, gives only a picture of a magically powerful, long-established, proud Elven empire - but no fiendish influence or dark pacts or the like. Also, House Starym was a Moon Elf House when it helped found the Eldreth Veluuthra. And there's Elaith. And the Moon Elf (.. Fire, something) who rather stupidly dived head-first into the portal to the Abyss and drew Lolth's attention back to the world of Abeir-Toril. Not evil, but certainly showing a tendency for recklessness that's more commonly associated with the Silvers than Golds. Kimil Nimesin, House Vyshaan, and (part) of the EV do not 'cancel out' the significance of Durothil, Vhoori, the Simbul (originally a Sun Elf!), Ulair, and Eltargrim, not to mention the propensity of GOOD-aligned Sun Elven Clerics of Corellon. Nor does Elaith and House Starym cancel out the virtue of Amlaruil, Sharlario, and House Moonflower. I truly grow tired of having these conversations, though. I just don't understand how people come to the conclusions they do. [And the starting points of Myth Drannor's fall were really the haphazardly coordinated portals chipping away at the Mythal and 3 Nycaloths floating over the city.] PS: Without the Gold Elves' somewhat zealous dedication to the Arcane arts, and High Magic in particular, I shudder to think what would have happened to the Tel'Quessir over the years. The fact that Moon Elves (other likely candidate for arcane casters) are much more likely to multiclass, meander, and spread their attentions thin, means that overall Elven society would not be nearly as magically integrated as it's historically been.
Lord Karsus 09-13-07, 10:40 AM	And the Moon Elf (.. Fire, something) who rather stupidly dived head-first into the portal to the Abyss and drew Lolth's attention back to the world of Abeir-Toril. -Kethryllia Amarallis.
SATA 09-13-07, 02:13 PM	My friend, the fall began long long ago at the beginning of the Crown Wars. In short, the elves are somewhat if not entirely responsible for the forces of good being at such a tremendous disadvantage during the recent years in the Realms (during the forces of evil's rise to power [such as Szass Tam, King Obould Manyarrows, and the Shades]). Why you ask? Simple. During the Crown Wars the Gold Elves and the Drow (well, before Corellon cursed them to be Drow [I don' t really know what they were called before they were Drow) causes the entire race to suffer such calamities and devastation of death and destruction that their entire race was utterly dismayed. What did the elves do in fact when all of the Crown Wars were over? Stay and continue the fight? Nope, they signaled the Retreat and that event alone is what is responsible for evil's endurance. Had the elves been vigilant and had not considered themselves the "ultimate race" or the "ubervitch" as some gold elves still might consider themselves as then Faerun would be much more prepared to handle the Shades or even those monstrosities that broke the Sharn Wall (can't remember their names either0). In fact, most of the blame rests completely on the gold elves. They instigated the Crown Wars and were a major reason why the Drow turned to Wendoni for help (and thus worship) of Lolth. It was the gold elves who signaled the retreat and the gold elves who were responsible for leaving Myth Drannor without an heir (of course that female moon elf high mage who had the Crown Blade also bears some of the blame for Myth Drannor's fall as well but that's beside the point). All in all, the gold elven branch of the elf race has been arrogant and prideful and almost always pride does come before the fall. I fear Faerun or the elves as a whole have not yet come to realize how much the gold elves mistakes has truly cost the good folk when fighting the good fight. With all due respect Ianten_Silverblade, I have to add to the comments of LK and GD that, now that you read the reason why you were mistaken about the issues and events that led to the Fall of Myth Drannor and that the Gold Elves are not responsible as you portrait. Is weird how you complain about the elves and blame them and call them names and at the same time wish they never Retreat cuz that way they would be here and there to help fight the good fight. I guess that all by yourself have them in the top as "the ultimate race".
Alediran 09-13-07, 04:08 PM	GD, I have to disagree in one point about the Fall of Myth Drannor. The Nicaloths where the ones attacking Myth Drannor. But if the had tried doing that during Eltargrim's life they wouldn't had stand a chance. When they attacked they had a powerfull advantage, Cormanthyr was divided, without a strong leader and it's luster was already diminishing. If Eltargrim and the Shrinshee where in Myth Drannor during the Weeping War, the allied forces would have been more effective to counter the Army of Darkness. And the proof of this is that even with it's might weakened, Myth Drannor almost won the War, it's heroes killed the Trio Nefarious (half the army with only fourteen strikes of a hammer and one of the 'loths seconds later)
Aldareth 09-14-07, 02:38 AM	Kimil Nimesin, House Vyshaan, and (part) of the EV do not 'cancel out' the significance of Durothil, Vhoori, the Simbul (originally a Sun Elf!), Ulair, and Eltargrim, not to mention the propensity of GOOD-aligned Sun Elven Clerics of Corellon. you mean the Srinshee right?
Karsus the Mad 09-14-07, 10:08 AM	Cormanthyr was divided, without a strong leader and it's luster was already diminishing. Largely attributed to Sun Elves refusing other races and non-sun elves to attempt the claiming ceremony, after every sun elf that attempted to draw the crownblade failed. I still agree with GD's assessment tho'; a few bad apples isn't exactly a proper base for analysis. Then again, neither are a few good apples, but meh.
danielmayer 09-15-07, 06:09 PM	If Eltargrim and the Shrinshee where in Myth Drannor during the Weeping War, the allied forces would have been more effective to counter the Army of Darkness. And the proof of this is that even with it's might weakened, Myth Drannor almost won the War, it's heroes killed the Trio Nefarious (half the army with only fourteen strikes of a hammer and one of the 'loths seconds later) In fact, I have to disagree with both of you: It has been stated more than once in the 2E-sources that nearly all really strong spellcasters left the city because of the prediction/divination of one of the Seven Wizards, afaik. Imho, the Fall of MD was nothing less than the epitome of the self-fullfilled prophecy. The Seven had left, some of the Windsong had left, the Shrinshee had left (ok, other reasons, but anyway...), I can't recall the others at the moment, but most of them were named in the sources (whole clans left, rember?). Eltargrimm or not - MD had simply not enough strong mages left. If they hadn't left, the "Forces of Good" would've been strong enough to repel the attack. If at least I'd been there.... could've been enough additional power to save Josidiah, multiplying effects after that day... Sad, so sad... :weep:
GothicDan 09-15-07, 06:27 PM	Yes, I meant the Srinshee. Sorry. And why disagree with me? I never stated why I thought the strong spellcasters left. There still still plenty left to have handled a horde containing all of, what, 1 or 2 powerful wizards? - if the Mythal hadn't been corrupted. Honestly, under any set of rules, the fraction of the city's power that was still left could have repulsed the invading forces, ESPECIALLY given the way Elven High Mages were fully statted in full power in Cormanthyr. Truly, it makes me pretty sure that, despite the Fall of Myth Drannor product's accounting (and it was a good one), the Fall itself WAS fate (or at least someone/something trying to control destiny, since Ed has said fate itself isn't an actual force on Abeir-Toril). As to the Sun Elven division - well, you could just as easily have said that it was the OTHER races who tried to wrest control from a Realm that had had Sun Elven leadership since its inception (or there might have been one Moon Elf in there...) that caused the division. Heck, I would say that. How many presidents have we had that were born outside of our country? Almost ALL national leaders that were voted/accepted into office WITHOUT a lot of aggression and violence were from the native cultural stock. I honestly would never feel comfortable being ruled by a completely different species, who literally, neurologically, think and FEEL things a different way.
danielmayer 09-17-07, 11:07 AM	How many presidents have we had that were born outside of our country? The first one at least, I'd say :D But the next one is waiting: He "will be back"... :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 09-17-07, 01:03 PM	The first one at least, I'd say :D -George Washington was born in Virginia, which technically would be within our country, if you figure that that American colonies are technically within our state currently.
DarkSongKnight 09-17-07, 01:10 PM	I also thought that the Fall of Myth Drannor came about as a result that most of it's citizens had forgotten the dream of Eltargrim, and that they took for granted the city itself. While yes, many mages and artists left, the city could have survived that and flourished. It was when the ego of the individual outweighed the "for the good of the people" that Myth Drannor began to fall, as many began pursuing their own goals, and not contributing to the livelihood of the city. The Srinshee I think said something along the lines of that... So in a way, the citizens began the erosion of the city... They might have found peace again, IF the Trio Nefarious hadn't come along. In the state the city was in, when fiends began attacking it, what else was there to do? With most citizens pursuing their own goals, they probably felt little obligation to the city. The natural choice was to flee. The "fate" seemingly involved in the fall of the city could be seen as natural selection, perhaps?