Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Warning 11-20-07, 03:05 PM	Could anyone inform me of this? I know he is the divine of all the other Gods...but he still a being none to less, anything that is able to live can die, so he is not some none-moible entity. Thanks
Invoker47 11-20-07, 03:22 PM	I always saw Ao as a practically omnipotent deity, much like God in the Abrahamic traditions, only a lot more aloof when it comes to mortal affairs. Barring that assumption, I have no idea how one would stat out Ao. As far as I'm aware, both Deities & Demigods and Faiths & Pantheons offers no direct guidance on how to make a deity with a divine rank greater than a greater deity. I might be wrong though. I think its up to a lot of interpretation honestly. I'm curious though to see how someone would do this.
Stigger 11-20-07, 03:55 PM	Only stat of Ao's you need to know is Ao>Everything. That is kinda his point... and as to whether he is actually alive, that's debateable, depending on how you define divinity on that level.
dethmetal 11-20-07, 04:46 PM	i just don't get peoples need to stat divine beings. I mean i can understand needing the stats for an avatar cause you what to know what this representation of that divine being is able to do. I just don't see a point for it beyond that. I thought i had alot more to say on this subject but after i got done typeing it all i realized i was just repeating myself. so yeah, god stats bad. mmmkay
Warning 11-20-07, 05:52 PM	i just don't get peoples need to stat divine beings. I mean i can understand needing the stats for an avatar cause you what to know what this representation of that divine being is able to do. I just don't see a point for it beyond that. I thought i had alot more to say on this subject but after i got done typeing it all i realized i was just repeating myself. so yeah, god stats bad. mmmkay If he exsist as a being, then he as a purpose. What says that I have a character to try and raid him? I'm sure I will lose, but to what extent? How will I know how bad I lost or so. This is why I would like to know his stats.
Stigger 11-20-07, 06:26 PM	Mortals don't even know where his realm is located, or if he even has one... so kinda hard to 'raid' someone if you can't even find them. He's a DM deus ex plot device, not something you go and get killed by to put it plainly.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-20-07, 08:34 PM	If he exsist as a being, then he as a purpose. That's not a statement of fact, it's a philosophical position. What says that I have a character to try and raid him? I'm sure I will lose, but to what extent? A great extent, because you couldn't find him, and AO doesn't care about you enough to help you get to him.
BadCatMan 11-20-07, 08:44 PM	Ao is the divine tech support of the Torilian Crystal Sphere. He manages the systems, bug checks and spends most of his time slacking off, surfing the weave-web and playing games with mortals. Look what happened when some gods borrowed his disks without asking. He got shirty and locked everyone out of the system until they were returned. If a mortal tried the same thing, Ao would just delete that bad file without a second thought.
Meldread 11-20-07, 10:55 PM	Here is how Ao works for me. To understand divine power, you have to understand divine rank. Ao is the only deity with a DR greater than 21. If I had to give him a Divine Rank it would be around 30. Any deity has the potential to equal Ao in power, however considering that he is currently the only being of this level of power he doesn't allow it. My Ao is an interloper deity from another world who laid the foundation of all creation in Realmspace. His origins are unknown, but he interloped with the following portfolios: balance, law, order, and administration. Outside of Realmspace he's a DR 20 deity. Inside Realmspace he's reached a level powerful enough to make him omnipotent, but this only functions within Realmspace. Outside of that he follows the regular rules for a DR 20 deity. If you try and fight him in anyway in Realmspace he will know before those thoughts even enter your head, and if you pose an actual threat he possesses enough power to completely erase you from the world - and from the minds of everyone who ever knew you, effectively making it so you never existed at all. Ao Supreme Deity Divine Rank 30 Portfolios: Creation, Divinity, Secrets, Balance, Law, Order and Administration He gains power each time any deity on Toril is worshiped. Think of it as something akin to a divine tax.
Lord Karsus 11-20-07, 11:40 PM	Ao is the divine tech support of the Torilian Crystal Sphere. He manages the systems, bug checks and spends most of his time slacking off, surfing the weave-web and playing games with mortals. Look what happened when some gods borrowed his disks without asking. He got shirty and locked everyone out of the system until they were returned. If a mortal tried the same thing, Ao would just delete that bad file without a second thought. -That's more or less it.
MarkusTay63 11-21-07, 04:53 AM	You want... to kill... AO? :uh-huh: AO stands for Alpha-Omega - the end-all, be-all of the Universe (or at least Realmspace). He doesn't HAVE STATS because you would have to give him a big, fat ∞ - he/she/it is off the scale, undefinable in mortal standards. Thats like wanting to kill GOD. :looloo:
Bullet06320 11-21-07, 06:25 AM	If I had to try and put AO on paper/ something like Divine Rank 30 Monk 100 Wizard 100 Cleric 100 Outsider 100 Automatic spell reflection not sure what else, if I ever try, i'll post it here
Old Sage 11-21-07, 06:37 AM	Ao should be maxed out... in fact, beyond the 3e DvR scale -- 21++. In other words... no-stats required. Ao is the Overgod. Providing stats for him/her/it would be extremely dfficult, if not impossible given the fact that, theoretically, Ao can *do* anything.
Old Sage 11-21-07, 06:39 AM	I think it's important to note, also, that Ao was not something Ed created. TSR come up with the concept of Ao and he was brought into the setting during the Time of Troubles -- through the 1e to 2e change over. As it stands, Ed has no idea on where TSR came up with the concept of Ao.
Bullet06320 11-21-07, 06:49 AM	Ao should be maxed out... in fact, beyond the 3e DvR scale -- 21++. In other words... no-stats required. Ao is the Overgod. Providing stats for him/her/it would be extremely dfficult, if not impossible given the fact that, theoretically, Ao can *do* anything. just thinking about it gave me a headache
BadCatMan 11-21-07, 06:50 AM	If you really must know, look up Pun-Pun.
Stigger 11-21-07, 12:03 PM	:blink: Now that's a scary thought I didn't need...
Warning 11-21-07, 12:39 PM	How boring, we play RPGs to do what we can not in real life, yet when I try to attempt something no one has ever done weather it be possible or not. It's not allowed. What good is a fantasy world with restrictions? But to each his/her own I guess...Sorry for wasting your time everyone. Take care.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-21-07, 01:31 PM	Fantasy worlds still have their own internal rules and logic (or at least, they should).
Stigger 11-21-07, 02:33 PM	A fantasy world without restrictions... interesting thought from a guy who seems to have a technology>magic mantra going. Seriously though, Ao isn't there to be beat on... he's a plot device, nothing more. It's kinda like someone here saying they're going on a quest to beat up God... of course people are going to look at him funny and think he's out of his mind.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 01:22 AM	Thats like wanting to kill GOD. :looloo: -Ah. But, MT, G-d is dead. ;)
Bullet06320 11-22-07, 01:25 AM	got to agree with you on that Stigger
MarkusTay63 11-22-07, 03:27 AM	What says that I have a character to try and raid him?I just noticed that - he's a MORPGer. P&P RPGers go on adventures, the vid-boys go on RAIDS. Its a mind-set thing. :rolleyes: Ain't it great that they are most likely turning 4e FR into THAT?
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 03:46 AM	Ain't it great that they are most likely turning 4e FR into THAT? -Orcs won't mind, so long as they make it into 4e, that is. Of course, what's D&D without Orcs, though?
creyzi4zb12 11-22-07, 03:47 AM	Try to put it this way.... A level (54 paladin/44 fighter named Lacu, a level 62 wizard/22 nether arcanist named Ango, a level 33 barbarian/evel 30 ranger/level 29 fighter named Sabam, a level 50 cleric/30 monk named Kara) set out a party to kill Ao. Lacu strikes with his sword. Rolls a dice = 1d20 = 20 + x =the dice rolls the value 20. he misses Ao Ango conjures his spell fire + magefire magic to blast Ao to oblivion. Rolls a dice = 1d20 + x = the dice rolls the value 20. Ao resists the spells Sabam attacks with his battle axe. Rolls a dice = 1d20 + x = the dice rolls the value 20. he misses Kara calls out divine healing magic to ressurect all her teammates. Rolls a dice = 1d20 + x = the dice rolls the value 20. her spells fail due to Ao's aura that increases spell chance failure by 999% Ao strikes with his knife to attack Lacu. Rolls a dice = 1d20 + x = the dice rolls the value 1. He kills Lacu, CLEAVE = now Sabam is dead, Great Cleave = now Kara dies, Great Cleave = now Ango is dead. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, why would anyone wanna fight Ao? If you're looking for a powerful being to fight with Ao, try putting him up against Annam or THE SERPENT.
johnkretzer 11-22-07, 03:52 AM	Personaly I would say Ao's stats are '8' on their sides.
glitter 11-22-07, 06:56 AM	Stats for Ao ? How would you use these stats ? In the Avatars trilogy, he easily hit Tyr and hurt him permanently. For a "good fight" he is supposed to be above the addition of ALL gods of Toril. Is he omnipotent ? Bane thought he isn't, then, he died :D
Sol_Odlanier 11-22-07, 09:21 AM	How boring, we play RPGs to do what we can not in real life, yet when I try to attempt something no one has ever done weather it be possible or not. It's not allowed. What good is a fantasy world with restrictions? But to each his/her own I guess...Sorry for wasting your time everyone. Take care. Game: 1. an amusement or pastime: children's games. 2. the material or equipment used in playing certain games: a store selling toys and games. 3. a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators. 4. a single occasion of such an activity, or a definite portion of one: the final game of the season; a rubber of three games at bridge. 5. the number of points required to win a game. 6. the score at a particular stage in a game: With five minutes to play, the game was 7 to 0. 7. a particular manner or style of playing a game: Her game of chess is improving. 8. anything resembling a game, as in requiring skill, endurance, or adherence to rules: the game of diplomacy. 9. a trick or strategy: to see through someone's game. 10. fun; sport of any kind; joke: That's about enough of your games. 11. wild animals, including birds and fishes, such as are hunted for food or taken for sport or profit. 12. the flesh of such wild animals or other game, used as food: a dish of game. 13. any object of pursuit, attack, abuse, etc.: The new boy at school seemed to be fair game for practical jokers. 14. Informal. a business or profession: He's in the real-estate game. 15. Archaic. fighting spirit; pluck. –adjective 16. pertaining to or composed of animals hunted or taken as game or to their flesh. 17. having a fighting spirit; plucky. 18. Informal. having the required spirit or will (often fol. by for or an infinitive): Who's game for a hike through the woods? –verb (used without object) 19. to play games of chance for stakes; gamble. –verb (used with object) 20. to squander in gaming (usually fol. by away). —Idioms21. die game, a. to die after a brave struggle. b. to remain steadfast or in good spirits at the moment of defeat: He knew that as a candidate he didn't have a chance in the world, but he campaigned anyway and died game. 22. make game of, to make fun of; ridicule: to make game of the weak and defenseless. 23. play games, to act in an evasive, deceitful, manipulative, or trifling manner dealing with others: Don't play games with me—I want to know if you love me or not! 24. play the game, Informal. a. to act or play in accordance with the rules. b. to act honorably or justly: We naively assumed that our allies would continue to play the game. That's What D&D is... a game no a "Tool" to do stuff you can't do in real life..
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 10:24 AM	Is he omnipotent ? Bane thought he isn't, then, he died :D -Is he omnipotent? No. Is he omnipotent in Realmspace? Debatable. As we don't know enough about Ao, I'm going to say yes.
MarkusTay63 11-22-07, 11:04 AM	Well, he can <fact> - 1) raise mortals to godhood 2) strip gods of godhood 3) alter the memories of everyone in Realmspace 4) FORCE every god in Realmspace into mortal form on Toril - even uber-powerful multi-spheric ones like Corellon and Lolth. Yeah, if he's not Omnipotent, he's damn sure close enough!
Sol_Odlanier 11-22-07, 11:15 AM	It DOES have a master of sorts doesn't it?
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 11:49 AM	Yeah, if he's not Omnipotent, he's damn sure close enough! -Well, going by the fact that Ao has some sort of "luminous being" that seems to be more powerful than it, he therefore cannot be omnipotent, with omnipotent being "all powerful". By virtue, if Ao does not have power over this "luminous being", then he cannot be omnipotent.
Stigger 11-22-07, 11:51 AM	That was actually a reference to me... sorry guys, should have told you sooner. :P Seriously though, wasn't that supposed to be an 'address to the reader' sort of thing?
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 12:03 PM	That was actually a reference to me... sorry guys, should have told you sooner. :P -What's it like being "luminous"? I was phosphorescent once. It wasn't fun...:( Seriously though, wasn't that supposed to be an 'address to the reader' sort of thing? -Something to that effect, it is believed, yes.
Stigger 11-22-07, 12:13 PM	Bright... one of the reasons I'm usually in :cool: , since I blind myself otherwise.
18DELTA 11-22-07, 12:40 PM	I think it's important to note, also, that Ao was not something Ed created. TSR come up with the concept of Ao and he was brought into the setting during the Time of Troubles -- through the 1e to 2e change over. As it stands, Ed has no idea on where TSR came up with the concept of Ao. WotC reset button? A plot device that is no longer in use? When was the last time Ao was mentioned in official Realms lore?:confused: I think that the idea of an over God is retarded, sorry Ao just my opinion.;)
Karsus the Mad 11-22-07, 01:52 PM	Since AO's an overdeity, and they're defined as entities with Divine Rank 21+, and "beyond the ken of mortals", I assume it's impossible to stat. If it's statted, it's within the realm of mortal comprehension, thus wouldn't be AO.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 02:28 PM	When was the last time Ao was mentioned in official Realms lore?:confused: -A Grand History of the Realms.
MarkusTay63 11-23-07, 03:57 PM	Seriously though, wasn't that supposed to be an 'address to the reader' sort of thing?This was officially stated after the novel came out. My personal feelings on this - It was just a nice little way to end the story. You know, the old "know matter how powerful they are, there is always someone stronger" kind of thing. Perhaps that being was meant to be "The One, TRUE, God" by the author, but TSR did not want to open up THAT can of worms, having recently recovered from the whole Catholic Church vs Fiends debacle (how we got Baatezu and Tanari in 2e). So, it was meant as a storypoint, and probably was supposed to be the REAL God, but TSR back-peddled and gave us the excuse that it was "You, the reader" or the DM. I thought that was pretty lame, but when you think about it, do you really think they'd want folks asking for STATS on THAT guy for the next 15 years? You know if they admitted they intended such a being for real, everyone would be screaming for more lore on HIM, like they do with Ao, Calling him "the reader" was just a neat little way, albeit lame, to nip that in the bud. But thats just my opinion - for all I know the author was talking about himself. ;)
Lord Karsus 11-23-07, 11:14 PM	But thats just my opinion - for all I know the author was talking about himself. ;) -Well, we know know that that was Stigger, at then end.
18DELTA 11-23-07, 11:18 PM	-A Grand History of the Realms. :eek: :banghead: :blush: :P
Lord Karsus 11-23-07, 11:49 PM	:eek: :banghead: :blush: :P -Well, AGHotR didn't really add anything new. So, don't worry.
Meldread 11-24-07, 01:20 AM	I still say that Ao is only omnipotent while inside Realmspace. All of Realmspace is pretty much his homeplane. So I would rule that if you even wanted to stand a chance (and you'd still need to have the power to defeat a uber deity) you'd have to do battle with him outside of Realmspace. It can be a good campaign, I suppose. A bunch of followers of a deity (could be anyone from Bane, to Lathander, to Shar to Jergal) traveling the planes in search of a way to draw Ao into a conflict outside of Realmspace, weaken, and then ultimately destroy him with the aid of other deities and whatever entity that was called forth. It'd be one way to challenge a level 40+ group of adventurers. I don't believe anything is impossible. Some things are just more difficult to achieve and require a bit of out of the box thinking.
Stigger 11-24-07, 10:33 AM	So if he's only omnipotent in Realmspace, why exactly would he leave it, presuming all of his duties are there?
Roman 11-24-07, 10:53 AM	That was actually a reference to me... sorry guys, should have told you sooner. :P I, of course, already knew. You see, in the infinite chain of beings towering over and above AO, I stand at the apex. How can one stand at the top of an infinite pyramid you ask? It is conceptually simple: my infinity is greater than all others. This may sound paradoxical to weak mortal minds, but some of the higher beings and even a select few of the more mentally privileged mortals should at least comprehend the notion even if their minds cannot grasp it in its entirety. Do not worry though, neither Realmspace nor the higher cosmic dimensions will be affected by my revelation to any significant degree. The vast majority of mortals simply do not have the capacity to believe or take seriously the greater facts of the cosmos beyond those proximate to their level of existence. Seriously though, wasn't that supposed to be an 'address to the reader' sort of thing? Seriously, your suggestion is feasible, though another interpretation of the reference could be the 'DM' or the 'author(s)' of the novel and/or the Forgotten Realms campaign world itself.
MarkusTay63 11-24-07, 03:10 PM	-Well, AGHotR didn't really add anything new. So, don't worry.Also, he was CONSPICUOUSLY absent at the end there, almost as if he didn't exist anymore. Hopefully, we'll hear something about what he was up to - perhaps even a few snapshots of his vacation in Bermuda. ;)
Lord Karsus 11-24-07, 04:11 PM	Also, he was CONSPICUOUSLY absent at the end there, almost as if he didn't exist anymore. -Well, since appearing in Waterdeep, Ao has "covered" his tracks, making all records of his appearence disappear and all.
Warning 11-24-07, 04:27 PM	So what would AO do if for some hypothetical reason everyone including the Gods, were to try and destroy him? Would he just kill them all off? Make everyone in the FR universe forget about him (assuming he can do that)? They wouldn't know where to find him? I just don't see the point of living or trying to acomplish something even as a God when you know that no matter what you have a leash on you. Not to bash or harrass any religous people/persons, but this is why I am an atheist, I do not like the idea of being a slave and having promises of doomed descruction to if I do not wish to kneel. I would like to think that life is what you make it. It is said that "interacting with mortals only during the most unusual of circumstances such as the Time of Troubles." So basically, even if another God would like to have such a time, AO can just say "Nope I don't like it". And in that sence, Shar will never prevail assuming that her desire is to end all life...what's the point of trying if AO will stop her?
Stigger 11-24-07, 05:06 PM	Interesting thoughts there Warning. For the most part I would agree with you in some respects, particularly in the freedom of will thing. However... think of it this way. You don't have to live on a leash, and just because someone can stop you doesn't mean that you shouldn't try. For society to function, it needs certain rules, otherwise you end up with a chaotic anarchy (no, they aren't the same thing, no matter what the punk movement tells us), in which the strong will dominate the weak, and no one can be truly free, not even the 'strong', whom will often become slaves to their own passions, trapped in a cycle of abuse. Even the strongest of sods ages and weakens afterall, and then they too are deposed and the cycle begins anew. So, rules and regulations become necessary for society to prosper and grow into something worth living in, and voila, we have civilization. Rules and regulations do in a way put a leash on you, but at the same time, they also keep you safe. Absolute freedom requires absolute responsibility aren't just empty words if you really put some thought into them and understand the implications of it... just try to imagine a world where police and governments don't exist that isn't a dystopian nightmare. But until we reach that utopian ideal, even the most civilized societies have criminals, who are generally at the shallow end of the gene-pool and the deep end of stupid, who can't quite live by those rules, and who get into trouble and make life unpleasant for the rest of us. It's stupid to think to think they can get away with the things they try, but they do it anyway... some are even moderately successful for a while, but on the whole, eventually they're gonna get caught and the situation will be corrected. Of course, very occassionally, less and less in the modern era, you get the exception, who actually is successful, and who doesn't get caught. Everyone thinks they're smart enough to be that exception, and yet the jails are filled with the stupid and the inept... Hence, Shar... who may or may not be that exception...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-24-07, 06:24 PM	So what would AO do if for some hypothetical reason everyone including the Gods, were to try and destroy him? Would he just kill them all off? Make everyone in the FR universe forget about him (assuming he can do that)? They wouldn't know where to find him? I just don't see the point of living or trying to acomplish something even as a God when you know that no matter what you have a leash on you. You'd still have a leash on you--it's called death (yes, even for gods). It's not written anywhere that life is pointless unless you have no restrictions.
MarkusTay63 11-24-07, 08:50 PM	-Well, since appearing in Waterdeep, Ao has "covered" his tracks, making all records of his appearence disappear and all.Hence my post on pg. 1 - Well, he can <fact> - 3) alter the memories of everyone in Realmspace;) In fact, I asked the designers a question about that - if someone cast some sort of 'epic magic' and altered a place or an event, AND everyone's memories of said event - would someone OUTSIDE of the effect remember the way it really was? In other words, someone leaves Waterdeep for Sigil immediately following the events of the ToT - he comes back 15 years later for a visit and when he mentions Ao, no one has any clue as to what he is talking about. I've yet to get an answewr to that, but it would be interesting, considering entire civilizations could have rose and fell from -30,000 DR to -17,600 DR and left Realmspace, only to return and find The Sundering erased their entire culture from history! Hey... maybe THAT'S why the Illithids had to return from the FUTURE. :eek:
Meldread 11-24-07, 09:50 PM	So if he's only omnipotent in Realmspace, why exactly would he leave it, presuming all of his duties are there? Because it is theoretically possible that an outside threat of enough importance would require him to at least expend some of his energy fighting it outside of Realmspace. After all, its easier to deal with a foe on the front porch before he gets into the house and starts messing with the children. It is highly likely that there are other beings of equal or greater power than Ao, and it is possible that these beings would put him into a position that made him vulnerable to attack and ultimately destruction.
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 12:08 AM	Hence my post on pg. 1 - ;) -Oh. In fact, I asked the designers a question about that - if someone cast some sort of 'epic magic' and altered a place or an event, AND everyone's memories of said event - would someone OUTSIDE of the effect remember the way it really was? -Whatever the answer, I suggest you let Lisa Smedman know. Kiaransalee has a vested interest in that. ;) I've yet to get an answewr to that, but it would be interesting, considering entire civilizations could have rose and fell from -30,000 DR to -17,600 DR and left Realmspace, only to return and find The Sundering erased their entire culture from history! -The Sundering took place in -24,400. The -17,000 was an error in LEoF that everyone decided to roll with. I refuse to perpetuate incorrect lore.
Stigger 11-25-07, 10:50 AM	Because it is theoretically possible that an outside threat of enough importance would require him to at least expend some of his energy fighting it outside of Realmspace. After all, its easier to deal with a foe on the front porch before he gets into the house and starts messing with the children. It is highly likely that there are other beings of equal or greater power than Ao, and it is possible that these beings would put him into a position that made him vulnerable to attack and ultimately destruction. Why would he bother, presuming omnipotence within Realmspace, with messing with something outside of it, which presumably is beyond his scope of caring about, when he could just wait for them to enter Realmspace and obliterate them with a thought? I'm personally of the opinion that at the level of power that Ao is at, there's not much need for competition with one another. Essentially controlling what passes for a solar system in D&D pretty much says to me that you're beyond the whole "we're the bestest" that mortals engage in and are just concerned with keeping everything running smoothly. Seems theres little to no point of conflict at that level, to me anyway, although I'm sure others would disagree.
Meldread 11-25-07, 11:58 AM	Stigger, Sure, there is little point in it unless for some reason Ao stands in your or your gods way. For a lot of greater deities Ao is certainly a roadblock. Just because Ao is omnipotent in Realmspace does not mean that he's the only being who could enter Realmspace with that capability. What would happen, for example, if Shar sent her followers over to the Grayhawk setting to release Tharizdun and assist him in getting into Realmspace. Then let's presume that if Tharizdun actually entered into Realmspace that he'd be on a power level that was on par with Ao himself. It seems advantageous to Ao to prevent his release, rather than waiting until it happens and then having half or more of Realmspace destroyed before he can once again contain him. Furthermore, if you have a bunch of level 50+ PC's this might be the only thing left that is challenging for them in Realmspace. They'd basically be on par with greater gods.
Stigger 11-25-07, 12:34 PM	Never having gotten into Grayhawk, I can't say I have much of a base of reference as to who this Tharizdun is in the first place... having said that, I'd likely put him/her/it in the same category as Dendar, Kezef, or the big walking mushroom thing... threats to mortals, and even some gods, but serving a purpose within the system that mortals and gods don't have to understand, and ultimately being tools of said "overdeity". As to level 50+ PC's... I can think of lots of things for them to do that don't involve deities and overdeities myself. Then again, I tend to subscribe to the theory that no matter how powerful a mortal gets, they're still mortal and are always going to be lesser beings compared to greater deities, no matter how high they climb.
Sir_Shadow 11-25-07, 02:59 PM	As to level 50+ PC's... I can think of lots of things for them to do that don't involve deities and overdeities myself. Then again, I tend to subscribe to the theory that no matter how powerful a mortal gets, they're still mortal and are always going to be lesser beings compared to greater deities, no matter how high they climb. That and I don't care what level you are, or how many generic magic sword +50 you have...not really going to do much against an entity like AO. No matter what level you are, if you're playing the encounter correctly anyways it'd be something like this: "We're here to kill you AO!" Seconds later. "Hi, I'm Kelemvor, welcome to my city. In case your wondering how you got here, here's a hint. Never try to fight a guy that can erase your existance with a thought. Now over here is the buffet...."
Meldread 11-25-07, 04:38 PM	Tharizdun is basically a being so powerful that it required just about every greater god in the Grayhawk Campaign Setting (good as well as evil) to forge an alliance to imprison him forever. He is a very Shar-like deity, with an even greater focus on the destruction of everything. Tharizdun's doctrine is to destroy all and everything encountered (himself included), as he puts it: "The very threads of existence must be torn asunder, then burned, then the ashes scattered, until all is nothing and no one exists to remember existence." He's the type of guy that Shar could get behind. In any event, you can't really say that a mortal is incapable of killing a Greater Deity. This is especially true when there are endless instances (both known and unknown) where mortals did exactly that. Few if any of those mortals were anywhere near 50+ in level, thus meaning that the greater power held by these individuals would make the task even easier for them. Then again, let's face it - if you ever have a 50+ level character he'd better be a Greater Deity himself. In the end, there is nothing wrong with having a campaign based around killing Ao. It shouldn't be easy, it should be insanely difficult, but it should be possible. I hate it when people say, "You can never, ever, do that. Ever. So don't even try." In my opinion anything is possible, but there is always the question: Do I want to do this, and if I do it... what will be the consequences? Killing Ao will have repercussions that may be worse than having him in existence in the first place... which in turn leads to even more adventures. If something played out like that and Ao was actually destroyed in my game, I'd have Lathander finally assume the power of Amaunator and perform a ritual in which he grows dramatically in power. Lathander and Shar would then enter into an epic and cosmic conflict - good vs evil, light vs darkness, life vs annihilation. They would become somewhat Yin and Yang. (Likely, also, Selune would be destroyed and Shar would absorb her power. Therefore Lathander would have to rise to take her place.) Things would begin to revert more toward what they were like at the beginning of creation. There would be a great conflict among the gods, as Lathander goes after the evil deities and Shar goes after the good-aligned deities. With Ao gone there is no guardian, no rules, and a great cannibalization begins with an almost every-god-for-himself mindset. Old scores finally get settled. Ancient alliances become shattered. It would become a game of Highlander in which there can only be one. In the end things would look very similar to how they look in 4E now, but with only two main churches with all other gods serving as saints within those churches. Other deities outside of those churches might exist, but they would be small cults that would be persecuted endlessly. That could be one end result of the destruction of Ao, but there could be others.
BadCatMan 11-25-07, 06:32 PM	I imagine that visiting Ao (and I mean visiting, because attacking or slaying him is unlikely) would be best left to a follower of the Padhra, the Way or the Path Of Enlightenment simply meditating, for years and years and years, up to a higher plane of existence and saying hi to this supremely enlightened being. Then going back again.
MarkusTay63 11-25-07, 06:43 PM	Padhran Monk: "Hi" Ao: "How did you get in here?" Padhran Monk: "Ummm.... I just meditated for thirty years straight..." Ao: "Security!"
Sol_Odlanier 11-25-07, 07:15 PM	Padhran Monk: "Hi" Ao: "How did you get in here?" Padhran Monk: "Ummm.... I just meditated for thirty years straight..." Ao: "Security!" -There's none (Helm's dead yknow:rolleyes: )
creyzi4zb12 11-25-07, 11:44 PM	Well then what about Annam? Isn't his stats more powerful than Ao's? Or the god from the creator races?
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 11:52 PM	Well then what about Annam? Isn't his stats more powerful than Ao's? Or the god from the creator races? -To address points one and two: No, and none of them.
creyzi4zb12 11-26-07, 12:00 AM	But isn't Annam more powerful than any other god in Faerun?
Lord Karsus 11-26-07, 12:51 AM	But isn't Annam more powerful than any other god in Faerun? -No, and even if he were, Ao isn't a god.
Stigger 11-26-07, 01:46 AM	Suppose its going to have to boil down to agreeing to disagreeing Meldread, since we have two very different concepts of Ao. As to the Tharziwhatever, considering Ao had the power to pretty much simultaneously exile every Power in the Faerunian pantheon, which is considerably more divine power than Grayhawk's pantheon as I understand it, I doubt he'd really break a sweat putting him in the dead-book.
Meldread 11-26-07, 11:29 AM	Stigger- Canonically speaking we know there is an even greater power than Ao. At the end of the Avatar Trilogy he is speaking to this entity. If there is a higher power than Ao out there, it makes sense that there are beings of equal to or slightly greater power than Ao. If you view Ao as a force of cosmic balance and creation, then it also makes sense that there would be an equal, but opposing force of cosmic destruction. Even if this force does not exist in Realmspace, it is possible that it exists elsewhere, and could have the power to enter Realmspace even against Ao's wishes. After all, how can one omnipotent being control and deny another omnipotent being? They would be forced into lesser forms (think Avatar's on par with Greater Gods) to do battle, and in these lesser forms they both become vulnerable. That is the only conceivable way I could imagine defeating Ao... and in truth you wouldn't be doing it, only assisting a being of equal power to him.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-26-07, 11:43 AM	Stigger- Canonically speaking we know there is an even greater power than Ao. Yes indeed. That would be...me...
Stigger 11-26-07, 01:38 PM	Pfeh, I already established that he was speaking to me... :P As to Ao having to have an opposite force of destruction to counter him, I could see where one could come to that conclusion, but I don't necessarily see creation and destruction as mutually exclusive concepts, and in fact are quite complementary to one another. I tend to see the acts of Creation and Destruction at that level as essentially the same thing. When you create something, you destroy any other potentials that the 'matter' you shaped it out of might have had. When you destroy something, you create potential for the 'matter' that used to form whatever it was that you destroyed. So, in my way of thinking Ao would be both a force of creation and destruction, and so wouldn't need an opposite.
Asgetrion 11-26-07, 01:51 PM	Yes indeed. That would be...me... I agree -- I was under the impression that the 'Master' Ao is speaking to is, indeed, *you*, the Dungeon Master (and not just Rino, but *every* DM ;)).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-26-07, 03:48 PM	I agree -- I was under the impression that the 'Master' Ao is speaking to is, indeed, *you*, the Dungeon Master (and not just Rino, but *every* DM ;)). No, really, it was just me... (j/k):P
Blibbering_Humdinger 11-26-07, 07:12 PM	It wasn't any of you! It was Boo! BOO! The true form of the miniature giant space hamster that rules the universe!!!! :mad: Or maybe it was Jarlaxle. The Overlord of the Gods is awesome and all that jazz 'n' rap, but the God From The Machine rules all.
Lord Karsus 11-26-07, 11:50 PM	If you view Ao as a force of cosmic balance and creation, then it also makes sense that there would be an equal, but opposing force of cosmic destruction. Even if this force does not exist in Realmspace, it is possible that it exists elsewhere, and could have the power to enter Realmspace even against Ao's wishes. -Ao, I believe, was very much modeled after the idea of the Judeo-Christian G-d. As such, there need not be a second "Overdeity" to represent everything that Ao isn't. After all, there isn't a second G-d that represents everything that G-d isn't- that's very much an oxymoron. But, still...
creyzi4zb12 11-27-07, 01:03 AM	Whattabout the Serpent? What is Annam anyway. I thought he was some kind of overgod of the giants.
Stigger 11-27-07, 02:08 AM	-Ao, I believe, was very much modeled after the idea of the Judeo-Christian G-d. As such, there need not be a second "Overdeity" to represent everything that Ao isn't. After all, there isn't a second G-d that represents everything that G-d isn't- that's very much an oxymoron. But, still... Not to be difficult, but there were several heretical Christian groups throughout history who believed in just such an entity, who was equal with God, rather than a fallen angel figure.
Lord Karsus 11-27-07, 03:23 AM	Not to be difficult, but there were several heretical Christian groups throughout history who believed in just such an entity, who was equal with God, rather than a fallen angel figure. -And, they're wrong. :) :P
Stigger 11-27-07, 03:29 AM	No more wrong than worshipping a dead-guy on a stick, Elvis, or a textbook. ;) :D
Lord Karsus 11-27-07, 03:41 AM	No more wrong than worshipping a dead-guy on a stick, Elvis, or a textbook. ;) :D -Leave Elvis out of this. Fiend.
Stigger 11-27-07, 03:46 AM	Fiend indeed... you're only now starting to notice that? :P :D
Lord Karsus 11-27-07, 03:52 AM	Fiend indeed... you're only now starting to notice that? :P :D -I just now realized that you're avatar is Sememmon.
Stigger 11-27-07, 03:55 AM	;)
Lord Karsus 11-27-07, 03:59 AM	-At least my avatar has a trustworthy face. :)
Stigger 11-27-07, 04:03 AM	Semmemon is very trustworthy when he bothers to give you his word...
Blibbering_Humdinger 11-27-07, 10:29 AM	If there is an overpower to Ao, it wouldn't be an equal opposite, anyway, else why would he call it "master?" So that discussion is moot. We're looking at an Overlord of the Overlords, here. Perhaps there are an infinite number of Ao's and Ao-ettes running around the multicosmos creating balances between Law and Chaos, inventing their own little pantheons in their own unique styles. All of these, I would think, sprang from the Overlord of the Overlords, the uber-Ao, and he, in turn, is but one of kagillions that sprang from the uber-uber--Ao, and so on, and so forth, until finally you come to Ed Greenwood, who in the beginning was but a twinkle in his father's eye... :D
Meldread 11-27-07, 10:37 AM	If there is an overpower to Ao, it wouldn't be an equal opposite, anyway, else why would he call it "master?" So that discussion is moot. We're looking at an Overlord of the Overlords, here. That's my point. It doesn't matter what people interpret it to mean, whether or not Ao was speaking to the DM or not is irrelevant. Canonically, Ao serves an even greater power than himself, and because of that it is easy to conclude that there are other beings in existence that are equal to or greater than Ao.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-27-07, 01:23 PM	-At least my avatar has a trustworthy face. :) Probably, but I don't know because I can't see your face--it's hidden in the folds of your hood.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-27-07, 01:25 PM	Whattabout the Serpent? I read about "the Serpent" in the very last issue of Dragon, and (assuming we are talking about the same being) it was posited that this entity might be nothing more than a figment of Vecna's imagination.
Sol_Odlanier 11-27-07, 01:39 PM	-I think she meant The serpent from The Avatar series...
Sir_Shadow 11-27-07, 04:24 PM	I read about "the Serpent" in the very last issue of Dragon, and (assuming we are talking about the same being) it was posited that this entity might be nothing more than a figment of Vecna's imagination. You have your eye and hand running around the multiverse (and in some stories your head too) being sought after by adventurers who want to cut off their own hands eyes and heads and wear yours and see if you don't start getting delusional too.....or creeped out. Seriously, I bet Vecna is happy that other parts of him werent floating around for people to graft onto themselves. Depending on the body part that'd be enough to put anyone ina padded room.
Sol_Odlanier 11-27-07, 04:37 PM	You have your eye and hand running around the multiverse (and in some stories your head too) being sought after by adventurers who want to cut off their own hands eyes and heads and wear yours and see if you don't start getting delusional too.....or creeped out. Seriously, I bet Vecna is happy that other parts of him werent floating around for people to graft onto themselves. Depending on the body part that'd be enough to put anyone ina padded room. Why does Tarantino In Planet terror comes into mind?:yuck:
Sir_Shadow 11-27-07, 05:03 PM	Why does Tarantino In Planet terror comes into mind?:yuck: I just get this image of Vecna looking down on the world from his domain (whereever that is) and being horrified. "Oh my god, what are you doing with my hand...ewww ewww, stop that...have some standards...oh gross don't do that. Oh I think I'm gonna be sick. No don't put that there! I'm gonna have nightmares for a week now!"
Lord Karsus 11-27-07, 06:29 PM	Probably, but I don't know because I can't see your face--it's hidden in the folds of your hood.:) :cool: -I think she meant The serpent from The Avatar series... -Dendar the Night Serpent.
Stigger 11-27-07, 07:13 PM	Doubtful it was Elaith really, so Dendar is likely... never know with Creyzi though. :D
Warning 11-28-07, 01:50 PM	Well thank you for your comments everyone. I guess AO has no stats then. So from now on, I will consider him an inanimate object. All though it's kind of silly when you think about it since "he" knows how to think since he involved himself in the time of troubles. And he is considered a deity, and deity's are entities in a logical sense. But hey, I'm probably thinking too far into since it is just a fictional novel and there are flaws in everything after all.
Stigger 11-28-07, 03:27 PM	I don't think we're really supposed to consider him at all really. He's supposed to be beyond mortal comprehension, and as such defies classification or definition from the start.
BurningTiger 11-28-07, 04:27 PM	Doubtful it was Elaith really, so Dendar is likely... never know with Creyzi though. :D I thought he was talking about the World Serpent that the ancient Sarrukh creator race worshiped.
Lord Karsus 11-28-07, 04:53 PM	And he is considered a deity, and deity's are entities in a logical sense. -That's the thing. Ao is not a deity. Ao is.
BadCatMan 11-28-07, 06:45 PM	Padhran Monk: "Hi" Ao: "How did you get in here?" Padhran Monk: "Ummm.... I just meditated for thirty years straight..." Ao: "Security!" :D Enlightenment's a *****, isn't it? Killing Ao would be like killing gravity (coz they're both keeping the little guy down). Extremely difficult, conceptually pointless, and things would really suck afterwards.
Stigger 11-28-07, 06:48 PM	Nicely put there BadCat... a very nice turn of phrase. :)
Karsus the Mad 11-28-07, 07:14 PM	-That's the thing. Ao is not a deity. Ao is. Bastard...I was going to say precisely that after I got off work.... wait...I did say that! woo hoo! I love being tripartite... Anyhoo. AO is not a deity. He's an overdeity (he makes and destroys GODS). By current *rules*, which the OP seems to want, he is of DIVINE RANK 21+, beyond mortal comprehension, and doesn't CARE of the pathetic gamer trying to mechanically stat him (it says so...in a less insulting manner, in the 3.0 Deities and Demigods sourcebook). What's with gleemax? I don't know about everyone else, but when I was I kid, glee was another name for spit shot between your teeth........
Lord Karsus 11-29-07, 12:31 AM	wait...I did say that! woo hoo! I love being tripartite... -Isn't it great? What's with gleemax? I don't know about everyone else, but when I was I kid, glee was another name for spit shot between your teeth........ -I know I've said this before, but, Gleemax is a giant brain from space that is in charge of WotC's R&D. Really.
Blibbering_Humdinger 11-29-07, 12:48 AM	Bastard...I was going to say precisely that after I got off work.... wait...I did say that! woo hoo! I love being tripartite... Anyhoo. AO is not a deity. He's an overdeity (he makes and destroys GODS). By current *rules*, which the OP seems to want, he is of DIVINE RANK 21+, beyond mortal comprehension, and doesn't CARE of the pathetic gamer trying to mechanically stat him (it says so...in a less insulting manner, in the 3.0 Deities and Demigods sourcebook). What's with gleemax? I don't know about everyone else, but when I was I kid, glee was another name for spit shot between your teeth........ These days it means intense joy or mirth. Weird, isn't it, how words involving happiness get warped to and fro across the borders of crudeness? "Glee" was once a word for spit, and now "gay," which once meant simply "happy," is now a disrespectful slang term for homosexuality. What's next, I wonder?
creyzi4zb12 11-29-07, 01:05 AM	-Dendar the Night Serpent. No not Dendar the Night Serpent. I meant The Serpent that was worshipped by the creator races (lizard version) BTW: What is Annam? I've always thought of him to be an overgod of the giants.
Lord Karsus 11-29-07, 01:30 AM	These days it means intense joy or mirth. Weird, isn't it, how words involving happiness get warped to and fro across the borders of crudeness? "Glee" was once a word for spit, and now "gay," which once meant simply "happy," is now a disrespectful slang term for homosexuality. What's next, I wonder? -Glee is a derogotory term now? No not Dendar the Night Serpent. I meant The Serpent that was worshipped by the creator races (lizard version) -Yes, I know. I was responding to Stigger. You meant the World Serpent. The answer is still no. BTW: What is Annam? I've always thought of him to be an overgod of the giants. -Annam is the patron of the Giant Pantheon.
creyzi4zb12 11-29-07, 01:36 AM	-Yes, I know. I was responding to Stigger. You meant the World Serpent. The answer is still no. What do you mean no? No he can't match Ao? Or no as in he's not true?
Stigger 11-29-07, 01:40 AM	No, no way in all of the lower planes could he match Ao... Like Annam, being the head of a pantheon isn't the same thing as being the overgod of Realmspace.
creyzi4zb12 11-29-07, 01:43 AM	I've always thought of him to be an orvergod. Oh well!
Lord Karsus 11-29-07, 01:54 AM	What do you mean no? No he can't match Ao? Or no as in he's not true? -No, he is not on the same "level" as Ao. Powerful as he is, Annam is still a deity.
Meldread 11-29-07, 02:33 AM	-No, he is not on the same "level" as Ao. Powerful as he is, Annam is still a deity. Ao is a deity as well. It's right there in the name, Overdeity. He might possess infinitely more power than most (all?) other deities within Realmspace, but in the end he's still a deity.
Sir_Shadow 11-29-07, 03:02 AM	Yes but a deity that is beyond mortal (and incidentally probably most other deity's) comprehension. By the way thats the same argument I use to prove that a Taco Salad is healthy. Its got salad right in the name.
Warning 11-29-07, 11:26 AM	So funny...all of you...you say AO is! Yet, you also say He!. Is this just the limitation of your vocabulary? Or just whatever auhtor made AO feel to give a none-exsistent being a personaility. Your arguments are contridicting and redundent. Last time I checked...He! was not an it!. But it is just based of fantasy after all..so hey.
Meldread 11-29-07, 11:30 AM	Yes, but the point is he is still a deity even if he functions on a different level. It's not about whether or not taco salad is healthy or not; it's about proving that taco salad is in fact a type of salad. Personally, I dislike the concept of Ao. Ed Greenwood never intended Ao to exist in the Forgotten Realm's and it was fully functional before Ao was grafted into the setting. The Realm's would function just fine if he were suddenly to die, just as they functioned just fine before he existed in cannon. He is conceptually out of place, and his existence diminishes a lot of the prestige the gods should have within the setting. In turn it is a contributing factor toward the whole, "let's kill gods" phenomenon. With Ao at the top of the food chain, it makes greater deities such as Mystra and Shar nothing more than lackeys or henchmen, and at the worst unruly children that need to be frequently disciplined. Additionally, canonically speaking Ao at least fears or believes it's possible for him to be challenged or destroyed. After all, that was the whole reason behind Mystra having so many damn Chosen. She was supposed to pump some of her divine power into them, to prevent herself from rising past Divine Rank 20. Had she disobeyed she would have found herself within Ao's power range.
Warning 11-29-07, 11:39 AM	Yes, but the point is he is still a deity even if he functions on a different level. It's not about whether or not taco salad is healthy or not; it's about proving that taco salad is in fact a type of salad. As I said a deity is a entity, and a over-deity is a entity as well...all that means is that he just has more power than others. It does not make him some super-natural none living being that can somehow still think and act. AO should have stats, even if you disagree. Even if He doesn't, I'm just saying He should. -That's the thing. Ao is not a deity. Ao is. Buddy, last I checked: He is an over-deity? Do you see the word deity in over-deity? I do! Therefore he is an entity. Logic+1 Oh by the way, since when did something none-exsistent have a Gender? Or is this just the previous posters fault?
OrderofUhlrik 11-29-07, 12:20 PM	This is going to probably sound ridiculous, but all stats are relative upon what you're comparing them to. A lvl 1 PC would consider any deity relatively omnipotent. Ao is considered omnipotent relative to every other entity within Realmspace. However, if (this is all conjecture from here on...) Ao is just a powerful deity that discovered the means of creating a crystal sphere, he only has control over his crystal sphere as a wizard would over a spell. He gives it life, and can snuff it out at a whim. But, should a PC group decide to leave said crystal sphere, and recruit a equally powerful god from another sphere that could assault Ao outside realmspace, then who's to say. Ao could easily be a deity from another sphere that is not very prominent there but insanely prominent in Realmspace. So, he could be challenged outside of Realmspace and possibly die in the space between crystal spheres (I envision as akin to defeating a god in the Astral Plane) So, in that situation, Ao would have to have stats, because he is not relatively ominpotent, he is definable outside realmspace. So, if you can arrange a fight outside of Realmspace between Ao and another God or if your PC's are just that damned powerful to force an engagement in neutral ground such as that then Ao could be statted. But, given as our only perception of Ao has been from a Realms perspective we really have no idea on what his classes/abilities would be exactly. I say take the strongest god other than him, double it, and you may get close. Classes? Wizard/Cleric/Fighter seems about right. Thats not adding any Prestige Classes or anything, but who knows.
Warning 11-29-07, 12:26 PM	So, in that situation, Ao would have to have stats, because he is not relatively ominpotent, he is definable outside realmspace. The day is mine! Take a seat everyone.
OrderofUhlrik 11-29-07, 12:30 PM	The only problem we have here is, I've never ever heard about how deities are handled in the areas between crystal spheres. We have multispheric gods like Corellon and Lloth, and they are told to be relatively more or less powerful depending upon the sphere we're talking about. But is there a hierarchy that takes into account all of the crystal spheres that has definable power-levels and talleys the gods? I doubt it. Yet, Ao outside realmspace would have to have stats, unless he just happens to be the overgod of all crystal-spheres, then of course, no. Just no. So, to answer your question, we don't have enough info, so do what you want. If you want to have it go down the way I suggested, just assume he is relatively weaker outside of Realmspace and can in fact be statted. Otherwise, do what you will. He is just a plot-device afterall so use him thusly to your discretion. If you can find stats on Tharizdun that would be a good start I'd say.
Meldread 11-29-07, 01:09 PM	OrderofUhlrik- That was my idea, from earlier in the thread! :P Yeah, if I wanted to get rid of Ao that is how I would do it. However, I have a feeling Ao is going to be non-existent in 4E, especially if we end up back in the standard cosmology, which I am certain we will... Ao may have been destroyed when the cosmology of Realmspace was destroyed. (Or reduced so much in power that he fell below Divine Rank 21, allowing another deity to take him out. Most likely Cyric.)
OrderofUhlrik 11-29-07, 01:13 PM	True, didn't mean to seem like I was taking credit for it, I was just basing my conjecture on what knowledge I had plus the theories you guys posed in this thread. But, now I have a question, do any of you happen to know anything of Deities outside of crystal spheres, or how deities powers are defined in such a place? Now I'm thinking about it, and it frankly blows my mind. Because if they have relative power based upon the sphere they are in at any given time, how could you... Oy, nevermind, just if you have a thought/answer to that I'm curious.
Blibbering_Humdinger 11-29-07, 06:19 PM	AO Ungendered megadeity (The Big One) - Omniclass, 1,000,000,000th level Strength 151 (because that's the number of Pokemon there were in the original Red/Blue versions) Dexterity 101 (because li'l Disney dalmations are cute, warm, and fuzzy! ^____^ ) Constitution 115 (because that's my house number) Wisdom 9999 (because he's like... wise, dude...) Intelligence 9999 (because he's like... SUPER smart!) Charisma 225 (because he's the life of the party when you get him drunk!) Feats: All! PERIOD! Spells: All, unlimited, clerical and wizardly and sorcererly and whatever else there is, no memorization restrictions. Hit Points: Don't even make me count 'em... Possessions owned: You. That cover just about everything? :P
OrderofUhlrik 11-29-07, 06:30 PM	Well, in the Realms sure, but we've already come to the conclusion that Ao can only be TRULY statted outside of the Realmspace because only there is he not relatively omnipotent. That is purely logical. So, if he was outside Realmspace we would either have to conjecture he is roughly equal in power to a creature such as Tharizdun in order to have somewhere to begin or basically say that he is a Overgod amongst a possible multitude of Overgods who could potentially be stronger/weaker. Or, it could be that Ao is a multispheric god who happened to just get a strong grip on Realmspace but is actually equivalent in power to someone like Corellon outside of the Realms. So that is our problem now, a lack of information. So why be so harsh now? He wants to try and stat him, let him try. We just really have no base from which to approach this conundrum other than to make logical assumptions and then repeal them later if more lore points otherwise. So. Lets just say that in realmspace all of his stats are NI (Nigh Infinate) or infinite depending on what you believe concerning infinities. Outside Realmspace lets consider him roughly equivalent to Tharizdun. Probably Divine Rank 30ish Stats at or near 100. High levels in several classes, and alot of feats and special abilities. But not infinately powerful there.
Stigger 11-29-07, 07:20 PM	Over-Deity? Because the human mind has to classify him somehow, and that's the term that has seemingly come into use to describe his position, although it doesn't necessarily define him. He/Him? Again, that's part of that human definition thing at work again. Really, he defies human classification and definition, but for conveniences sake, we try to apply them anyway. The actual power of a deity, even a lesser one, is nearly incomprehensible to most mortals, yet we do our best to rationalize, define, and comprehend them as best we can, but our understandings are inherently flawed since they cannot truly grasp divinity. We can relate to them in limited ways, understanding the concepts the represent and interact with them when they communicate with us, but I doubt we can seriously grasp their true nature without being one ourselves. Now, assuming that my assertations are true, how are we supposed to even remotely understand who is as a deity to the things we call deity? We put labels and definitions, like gender, but how we view Ao really has no bearing on what Ao actually is, and is simply how we perceive Ao, and Ao is certainly under no obligation to live up to, or down to for that matter, our expectations.
Lord Karsus 11-29-07, 08:06 PM	Ao is a deity as well. It's right there in the name, Overdeity. He might possess infinitely more power than most (all?) other deities within Realmspace, but in the end he's still a deity. -Ao isn't a deity. Like I said, all we know about Ao is that Ao is. Is a "Paladin of Freedom" a Paladin? No. A Paladin entails a character being Lawful Good. A Paladin of Freedom entails a character being Chaotc (and maybe good, I don't know). It's simple logic: Paladin = Lawful Good Paladin of Freedom = Chaotic Paladin does not equal Paladin of Freedom -So, we may call Ao an 'overdeity', but that doesn't in any way apply that Ao is a deity. Buddy, last I checked: He is an over-deity? Do you see the word deity in over-deity? I do! Therefore he is an entity. Logic+1 -See above. Plus, I never said that Ao wasn't an entity. By saying that Ao is, I am, in turn, giving creedence to the belief that Ao exists. And, for Ao to exist, it would have to be some kind of entity. Basic Descartes. Oh by the way, since when did something none-exsistent have a Gender? Or is this just the previous posters fault? -Do you see me using gender? -But, traditionally, the concept of some sort of ominscient, omnipotent deity, which Ao seems to be modeled after, is a He. The Brahma, in Hinduism, is defined as a 'he'. Vishnu, in Hinduism, is defined as a 'he'. In Judiasm, Adonai is defined as a 'he'. In Christianity, Jesus is defined as a 'he'. In Islam, Allah is defined as a 'he'.
Warning 11-30-07, 02:10 AM	Over-Deity? Because the human mind has to classify him somehow, and that's the term that has seemingly come into use to describe his position, although it doesn't necessarily define him. He/Him? Again, that's part of that human definition thing at work again. Really, he defies human classification and definition, but for conveniences sake, we try to apply them anyway. The actual power of a deity, even a lesser one, is nearly incomprehensible to most mortals, yet we do our best to rationalize, define, and comprehend them as best we can, but our understandings are inherently flawed since they cannot truly grasp divinity. We can relate to them in limited ways, understanding the concepts the represent and interact with them when they communicate with us, but I doubt we can seriously grasp their true nature without being one ourselves. Now, assuming that my assertations are true, how are we supposed to even remotely understand who is as a deity to the things we call deity? We put labels and definitions, like gender, but how we view Ao really has no bearing on what Ao actually is, and is simply how we perceive Ao, and Ao is certainly under no obligation to live up to, or down to for that matter, our expectations. Lol...You act as if AO should be known as something beyond human comprehension. Yet you forget, that if you are going to base the vocabulary errors on human tongue, then you might as well blame his creation from ED Greenwood or whoever invented him. He is a flawed creation. Should I call him it? Should I call it "always". I think that we are going to far into this, I just need his stats, because when I battle him, only one of us walks away.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 02:15 AM	Lol...You act as if AO should be known as something beyond human comprehension. -According to the rules, that is precisely what Ao is. I think that we are going to far into this, I just need his stats, because when I battle him, only one of us walks away. -These are Ao's stats: > or = ∞ -Hope that helps.
Warning 11-30-07, 02:17 AM	- -These are Ao's stats: > or = ∞ -Hope that helps. This is Chuck Norris stats: Win=Win -There is no hope for help vs him. Only a round-house kick to the face! (By the way, chuck norris can divide by zero...can AO? I think not!)
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:25 AM	So, if you're only interested in beating up on Ao, why not just make something up and go to town... why even bother with the pretense of asking if its possible? Save us all some time and just say you're looking to prove how good of a build you can come up with to pwn Ao, and you'll probably get more what you're looking for...
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 02:26 AM	-I never got the whole 'Chuck Norris' thing. I don't think he's anything particularly special... -But, that's how you can defeat Chuck Norris, I hear. He's like Gladiator of the Imperial Shi'ar Guard, if you're familiar with Marvel Comics. He is weakened the more you realize that you can defeat him. His power comes with his confidence.
Warning 11-30-07, 02:27 AM	So, if you're only interested in beating up on Ao, why not just make something up and go to town... why even bother with the pretense of asking if its possible? Save us all some time and just say you're looking to prove how good of a build you can come up with to pwn Ao, and you'll probably get more what you're looking for... I don't understand. But um, anyway, that was a joke. And also, if anyone can give me stats that are not a joke and to the best of their ability, I'd appreciate it.
Warning 11-30-07, 02:31 AM	-I never got the whole 'Chuck Norris' thing. I don't think he's anything particularly special... -But, that's how you can defeat Chuck Norris, I hear. He's like Gladiator of the Imperial Shi'ar Guard, if you're familiar with Marvel Comics. He is weakened the more you realize that you can defeat him. His power comes with his confidence. How dare you Karsus, may Chuck Norris round-house kick your soul back to sanity. * When Chuck Norris calls 1-900 numbers, he doesnt get charged. He holds up the phone and money falls out. * Chuck Norris once ate a whole cake before his friends could tell him there was a stripper in it. * Some people like to eat frogs' legs. Chuck Norris likes to eat lizard legs. Hence, snakes. * There are no races, only countries of people Chuck Norris has beaten to different shades of black and blue. * When Chuck Norris was denied an Egg McMuffin at McDonald's because it was 10:35, he roundhouse kicked the store so hard it became a Wendy's. * Chuck Norris can't finish a "color by numbers" because his markers are filled with the blood of his victims. Unfortunately, all blood is dark red. * A Chuck Norris-delivered Roundhouse Kick is the preferred method of execution in 16 states. * When Chuck Norris falls in water, Chuck Norris doesn't get wet. Water gets Chuck Norris. * Scientists have estimated that the energy given off during the Big Bang is roughly equal to 1CNRhK (Chuck Norris Roundhouse Kick) * Chuck Norris’ house has no doors, only walls that he walks through. * When Chuck Norris has sex with a man, it won't be because he is gay. It will be because he has run out of women. * How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris? ...All of it. * Chuck Norris doesn't actually write books, the words assemble themselves out of fear. * In honor of Chuck Norris, all McDonald's in Texas have an even larger size than the super-size. When ordering, just ask to be Chucksized. * Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter. * If tapped, a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick could power the country of Australia for 44 minutes. * Chuck Norris can divide by zero. * The grass is always greener on the other side, unless Chuck Norris has been there. In that case the grass is most likely soaked in blood and tears. * A picture is worth a thousand words. A Chuck Norris is worth 1 billion words. * Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick. * Chuck Norris invented his own type of karate. It's called Chuck-Will-Kill. * When an episode of Walker Texas Ranger was aired in France, the French surrendered to Chuck Norris just to be on the safe side. * While urinating, Chuck Norris is easily capable of welding titanium. * Chuck Norris once sued the Houghton-Mifflin textbook company when it became apparent that their account of the war of 1812 was plagiarized from his autobiography. * When Chuck Norris talks, everybody listens. And dies. * When Steven Seagal kills a ninja, he only takes its hide. When Chuck Norris kills a ninja, he uses every part. * Wilt Chamberlain claims to have slept with more than 20,000 women in his lifetime. Chuck Norris calls this "a slow Tuesday." * Contrary to popular belief, there is indeed enough Chuck Norris to go around. * Chuck Norris doesnt shave; he kicks himself in the face. The only thing that can cut Chuck Norris is Chuck Norris. * For some, the left testicle is larger than the right one. For Chuck Norris, each testicle is larger than the other one. * Chuck Norris always knows the EXACT location of Carmen SanDiego. * When taking the SAT, write "Chuck Norris" for every answer. You will score over 8000. * Chuck Norris invented black. In fact, he invented the entire spectrum of visible light. Except pink. Tom Cruise invented pink. * When you're Chuck Norris, anything + anything is equal to 1. One roundhouse kick to the face. * Chuck Norris has the greatest Poker-Face of all time. He won the 1983 World Series of Poker, despite holding only a Joker, a Get out of Jail Free Monopoloy card, a 2 of clubs, 7 of spades and a green #4 card from the game UNO. * On his birthday, Chuck Norris randomly selects one lucky child to be thrown into the sun. * Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee. Except Chuck Norris. * Chuck Norris doesn't throw up if he drinks too much. Chuck Norris throws down! * In the beginning there was nothing...then Chuck Norris Roundhouse kicked that nothing in the face and said "Get a job". That is the story of the universe. * Chuck Norris has 12 moons. One of those moons is the Earth. * Chuck Norris grinds his coffee with his teeth and boils the water with his own rage. * Archeologists unearthed an old english dictionary dating back to the year 1236. It defined "victim" as "one who has encountered Chuck Norris" * Chuck Norris ordered a Big Mac at Burger King, and got one. * Chuck Norris and Mr. T walked into a bar. The bar was instantly destroyed, as that level of awesome cannot be contained in one building. * If you Google search "Chuck Norris getting his ass kicked" you will generate zero results. It just doesn't happen. * Chuck Norris can drink an entire gallon of milk in thirty-seven seconds. * Little known medical fact: Chuck Norris invented the Caesarean section when he roundhouse-kicked his way out of his monther's womb. * Chuck Norris doesn't bowl strikes, he just knocks down one pin and the other nine faint. * The show Survivor had the original premise of putting people on an island with Chuck Norris. There were no survivors, and nobody is brave enough to go to the island to retrieve the footage. * It takes Chuck Norris 20 minutes to watch 60 Minutes. * You know how they say if you die in your dream then you will die in real life? In actuality, if you dream of death then Chuck Norris will find you and kill you. * Chuck Norris has a deep and abiding respect for human life... unless it gets in his way. * The Bermuda Triangle used to be the Bermuda Square, until Chuck Norris Roundhouse kicked one of the corners off. * There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Oklahoma. * Chuck Norris doesn't believe in Germany. * When Chuck Norris is in a crowded area, he doesn't walk around people. He walks through them. * Chuck Norris once ate an entire bottle of sleeping pills. They made him blink. * James Cameron wanted Chuck Norris to play the Terminator. However, upon reflection, he realized that would have turned his movie into a documentary, so he went with Arnold Schwarzenegger. * Chuck Norris can touch MC Hammer. * Thousands of years ago Chuck Norris came across a bear. It was so terrified that it fled north into the arctic. It was also so terrified that all of its decendents now have white hair. * Chuck Norris played Russian Roulette with a fully loaded gun and won. * It takes 14 puppeteers to make Chuck Norris smile, but only 2 to make him destroy an orphanage. * Think of a hot girl.....................done? Chuck Norris did her.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 02:34 AM	:: I disbelieve Chuck Norris :: -He now has no power over me. That's that. (Some of those are pretty funny, though! :D)
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:39 AM	Ao's never been statted, nor will Ao likely ever be statted. Make all of Ao's stats 100, 20 levels in all classes, max out HP, give items for each of the body slots worth 1,000,000gp each, add +100 to natural armor AC, and you should start to approach something that could come relatively close to expressing Ao's stats against a mortal...
Warning 11-30-07, 02:48 AM	:: I disbelieve Chuck Norris :: -He now has no power over me. That's that. (Some of those are pretty funny, though! :D) when chuck norris gets stabbed, the knife bleeds when chuck norris looks at the sun, the sun goes blind chuck norris had a staring contest with god, and god blinked chuck norris started and ended world war II chuck norris doesn’t grow, everything else shrinks chuck norris called 911, backwards Ao's never been statted, nor will Ao likely ever be statted. Make all of Ao's stats 100, 20 levels in all classes, max out HP, give items for each of the body slots worth 1,000,000gp each, add +100 to natural armor AC, and you should start to approach something that could come relatively close to expressing Ao's stats against a mortal... I did not say comparing it to a mortal, I just asked for his stats.
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:51 AM	Well, as you're talking about humans being the baseline for D&D stats, you really can't avoid making the comparison there.
Warning 11-30-07, 02:54 AM	Well, as you're talking about humans being the baseline for D&D stats, you really can't avoid making the comparison there. And you can't avoid seeing him as an entity, and any entity would require stats. It says He, It says AO did this or that, AO was this or that.Ao is a being....just a very powerful being that maybe we can not stat...but he has them even if we can't stat it. So we are in a bit of a dilemma.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 03:01 AM	-I already provided Ao's stats: > or = ∞
Stigger 11-30-07, 03:06 AM	Just because I see him as an entity, and attempt to define him as an entity, does not mean that its true. Does he have definition and boundaries, or even a physical form? Maybe, we don't know. We presume he does, but he might not. Just because we try to assign him stats and the like, to define and shape him in our minds, he is under no obligation to conform to our ideas about him. We perceive him as a male being, but at that level, does gender even have a meaning? Maybe some people saw him as a female and refer to Ao in the feminine... That dilemna you spoke of there was exactly the point I was trying to make to you. You are trying to define and classify (assign stats) for something that defies classification and definition by its very nature.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 03:13 AM	Just because I see him as an entity, and attempt to define him as an entity, does not mean that its true. -Ao exists. Therefore, Ao is some kind of entity, or whatever word you want to use to describe something that exists.
Stigger 11-30-07, 03:25 AM	He could just be a consciousness too... he doesn't really have to have a physical form as we understand one is what I'm getting at.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 03:30 AM	He could just be a consciousness too... he doesn't really have to have a physical form as we understand one is what I'm getting at. -No. The definition of entity does not necessarily include having any kind of corporeal manifestation. 1. something that has a real existence; thing: corporeal entities. 2. being or existence, esp. when considered as distinct, independent, or self-contained: He conceived of society as composed of particular entities requiring special treatment. 3. essential nature: The entity of justice is universality.
Stigger 11-30-07, 03:34 AM	Ah, right. Don't usually define it that way myself, but you are correct there.
Warning 11-30-07, 03:34 AM	Ah, right. Don't usually define it that way myself, but you are correct there. No, no, therefore AO has stats, therefore I am correct and need a answer. All Karsus did was prove why I am right. Thank you GG:P
Stigger 11-30-07, 03:40 AM	No, he simply pointed out that entity has a broader meaning than I was giving it. Besides, I gave you a set of stats up there, it's not my fault you didn't like them. :P
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 03:43 AM	Ao: STR: > or = ∞ DEX: > or = ∞ CON: > or = ∞ INT: > or = ∞ WIS: > or = ∞ CHA: > or = ∞ Reflex: +> or = ∞ Will: +> or = ∞ Fortitude: +> or = ∞ Skills: Alchemy: +> or = ∞ Animal Empathy: +> or = ∞ Etc...
Warning 11-30-07, 03:45 AM	No, he simply pointed out that entity has a broader meaning than I was giving it. Besides, I gave you a set of stats up there, it's not my fault you didn't like them. :P Guess your right, doesn't matter since I will going to destroy him. Too bad there isn't a universal DnD world where are the players are effected by another's actions kinda like in MMORPGS. You would hear of me quite a lot or not at all (Because I try the impossible usually so I either succeed or die) Ao: STR: > or = ∞ DEX: > or = ∞ CON: > or = ∞ INT: > or = ∞ WIS: > or = ∞ CHA: > or = ∞ Reflex: +> or = ∞ Will: +> or = ∞ Fortitude: +> or = ∞ Skills: Alchemy: +> or = ∞ Animal Empathy: +> or = ∞ Etc... I want to know the "Etc..." stats...stop half-assing it...keep going...
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 03:47 AM	(Because I try the impossible usually so I either succeed or die) -Well, in this case, you'd die. You wouldn't even get into combat with Ao, either. Try finding Ao first.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 03:48 AM	I want to know the "Etc..." stats...stop half-assing it...keep going... -I wrote "ETC" because I didn't want to type put every single skill on the character sheet. Imagine that they're all there, and with the +> or = ∞ attached.
Warning 11-30-07, 03:53 AM	-I wrote "ETC" because I didn't want to type put every single skill on the character sheet. Imagine that they're all there, and with the +> or = ∞ attached. I know, but you failed to receive the joke.:weep: But what of another deity or being from another realmspace as others have mentioned. Therefore he can not just be always and #1. He can be taken down. Your thoughts?
Stigger 11-30-07, 03:58 AM	There is no other Realmspace, unless you count Markus' insane ravings about Abeir... As to Ao being taken down MMO style, you're just wrong on so many levels. Its something called a Spawn Timer... ;)
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 03:58 AM	I know, but you failed to receive the joke.:weep: But what of another deity or being from another realmspace as others have mentioned. Therefore he can not just be always and #1. He can be taken down. Your thoughts? -As has been mentioned, Ao transcends divinity as it applies to D&D. Therefore, a deity from anywhere is still sub-Ao. -Only other "overdeities" might equal what Ao represents. We don't know enough about "overdeities" to make a statement grounded in fact like that, however.
Warning 11-30-07, 04:01 AM	Well, in the Realms sure, but we've already come to the conclusion that Ao can only be TRULY statted outside of the Realmspace because only there is he not relatively omnipotent. That is purely logical. So, if he was outside Realmspace we would either have to conjecture he is roughly equal in power to a creature such as Tharizdun in order to have somewhere to begin or basically say that he is a Overgod amongst a possible multitude of Overgods who could potentially be stronger/weaker. Or, it could be that Ao is a multispheric god who happened to just get a strong grip on Realmspace but is actually equivalent in power to someone like Corellon outside of the Realms. So that is our problem now, a lack of information. So why be so harsh now? He wants to try and stat him, let him try. We just really have no base from which to approach this conundrum other than to make logical assumptions and then repeal them later if more lore points otherwise. So. Lets just say that in realmspace all of his stats are NI (Nigh Infinate) or infinite depending on what you believe concerning infinities. Outside Realmspace lets consider him roughly equivalent to Tharizdun. Probably Divine Rank 30ish Stats at or near 100. High levels in several classes, and alot of feats and special abilities. But not infinately powerful there. Take that Stigger.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 04:03 AM	Take that Stigger. -Of course, that all hinges on the fact that Ao can leave Realmspace. There is no reason to believe that Ao can. And, presuming he can, why would he?
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 04:15 AM	To go to the Overgod Convention held in Sigil every Millenium. He really can't stand the other overgods (he's a bit of a tight-_ss), but he does so love to wear those crazy hats and drive around in those funny little cars. The LoP HATES those damn conventions, but it was part of her deal, see.... :cool:
Stigger 11-30-07, 04:17 AM	Take that Stigger. You presume I accept that as true, and I don't, mostly for what LK said. He is Realmspace as far as we understand it, so why would he leave? As far as I'm aware, there has never been another being of Ao's powerlevel even mentioned in D&D lore, except perhaps the Lady of Pain in Sigil, and even that's iffy. We presume other settings have them, but why would they leave their respective territories either? You want to go 'raid' him, fine. Just don't expect anyone to take it seriously. I could sit down, stat out the Judeo-Christian God, and make a character with a build that could defeat the stats I came up with, but what exactly does that prove? Absolutely nothing beyond me having far too much time on my hands...
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 04:19 AM	There is no other Realmspace, unless you count Markus' insane ravings about Abeir...How do I wind up getting mentioned when I'm not even in the conversation? :confused: And besides, of course it's coming back. Everyone could use Abeir at the end of a long, hard day... or Spellplague. :P
Stigger 11-30-07, 04:21 AM	*Groan* *beats Markus with a rolled up newspaper* And I mentioned you because I felt it amusing to... and that is all you need know puny mortal. :P ;)
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 04:23 AM	Everyone could use Abeir at the end of a long, hard day... -Pheh. My original plan tonight was to sit in my basement, on the computer, drinking wine until I got slightly drunk, and then I was going to go to sleep. The damn wine bottle had a cork, and I couln't find a...cork popper for the life of me. Foiled by a cork. Bleh...
Stigger 11-30-07, 04:25 AM	Erm... push it in if you're that desperate... or be a real man and break the bottle, swilling in glass fragments along with your wine. Just think of it like Crunchy Peanut Butter... ;) :D
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 04:27 AM	You call ME a puny mortal - yet mention my name and I appear. :coolcthul
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 04:28 AM	Erm... push it in if you're that desperate... or be a real man and break the bottle, swilling in glass fragments along with your wine. Just think of it like Crunchy Peanut Butter... ;) :D -I was jokingly telling my sister that I was going to do that. :)
Stigger 11-30-07, 04:29 AM	Feh, only because I bound a summoning spell to your name, compelling you to do so subconsciously. Oops, did I say that outloud... my bad.
Warning 11-30-07, 04:57 AM	When I destroy AO with or without his stats, here in death's dominion, where even shadows die. I am the one almighty, you will cry my name. And when you seek forgiveness, you will see there is no god. And for all eternity you will cry my name.
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 05:01 AM	wow... :rolleyes: Just... WOW.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 05:02 AM	When I destroy AO with or without his stats, here in death's dominion, where even shadows die. I am the one almighty, you will cry my name. And when you seek forgiveness, you will see there is no god. And for all eternity you will cry my name. -Destroying Ao likely destroys Realmspace, in turn, destroying you. That's a major D'oh! moment.
Stigger 11-30-07, 06:18 AM	Indeed... though I'm at a loss as to what a shadow dying has to do with anything... and I'm somewhat curious as to why Ao would be in this so called 'death's domain' place, wherever that is... and I for one, will be crying no one's name, except maybe my wife's, but that's none of your business ya little whippersnapper. :P
Meldread 11-30-07, 06:22 AM	He is Realmspace as far as we understand it, so why would he leave? No... just... no... As far as I am aware, there is absolutely nothing that states that Ao is Realmspace manifest. In fact, there are things that point to the contrary. Throw open your 3E FRCS and flip to page 260: "Thus, the history of Faerun began when Lord Ao created the universe that now holds the world of Toril." As mighty as Ao may be, it is impossible for him to create himself, therefore he existed before the creation of the universe (which is called Realmspace). Where did Ao come from? Who created Ao? Where did Ao exist before he created Realmspace? What existed before Ao existed? Here is what we know for certain: - There is a being that Ao sees as his Master. You can interpret that as you like, but canonically speaking there is a being somewhere out there that is so powerful Ao calls it Master. - Ao feared that Mystra could potentially become too powerful and someday be on par with him, thus the reason she was forced to create so many Chosen. The Chosen are supposed to hold some of her divine power - and statistically speaking, this keeps her from rising above her current divine rank. - Ao is omnipotent within Realmspace, and can pretty much do anything he wants. - Because of the above, he has the power and authority to force the gods to do whatever he wants. From the above it is easy to draw the following conclusions. - There are likely beings in existence that are of equal or greater power than Ao. We know of one for certain, and that greatly increases the chances of others. - We know that it is possible for Ao to be challenged in some way, because of his actions with Mystra. - It is reasonable to believe that Ao can leave Realmspace, because he existed before its creation. Therefore, he had to exist somewhere that was not Realmspace. - If Ao and another entity of equal or greater power were to come into conflict it would require them to assume lesser forms. The simple reason for this being that if they are both omnipotent they can simply will/wish the other out of existence. Additionally, being supremely powerful means that you are supremely crippled when fighting an equally powerful being who is also supremely powerful. You will at least need initiative rolls, to see who wills the other out of existence first. Therefore a battle would MOST LIKELY happen like this: Ao's Master will show up, and demand the two entities to assume lesser forms for the battle. These would be the equivalent of Avatar's and they would be statable by the rules. They would do battle, and the loser will be written out of existence by Ao's Master. The end. Thus, if you want to challenge Ao, you need a Divine Rank of at least 21.
Stigger 11-30-07, 06:55 AM	No... just... no... As far as I am aware, there is absolutely nothing that states that Ao is Realmspace manifest. In fact, there are things that point to the contrary. Throw open your 3E FRCS and flip to page 260: "Thus, the history of Faerun began when Lord Ao created the universe that now holds the world of Toril." Read page 260 a bit more carefully, it clearly states that these are accepted as fact by historians, not that they are literal truth. Its origins are noted as coming from mythology and religious text, and so are unreliable as factual evidence. The simple fact there is that we don't know, but this is the sages best guess. And even if we do go by that passage being true, it doesn't say Realmspace, it says Universe, which presumably holds many different worlds on it, so its not just the Faerunian pantheon he's dealing with, but the Pantheons of those worlds as well, which just makes him that much more 'powerful'... and certainly farther beyond mortal reach than we thought him before. Universe afterall implies something a tiny bit greater than a single solar system/crystal sphere. As mighty as Ao may be, it is impossible for him to create himself, therefore he existed before the creation of the universe (which is called Realmspace). Where did Ao come from? Who created Ao? Where did Ao exist before he created Realmspace? What existed before Ao existed? You've got to be a little careful with that logic, as its essentially unanswerable questions you're asking there. If its impossible for Ao to create himself, then the same likely would hold true for any 'master' he had, and lead into a circular cycle of constantly escalating entities ad infinitum, since they all had to come from somewhere. It's quite possible that Ao was simply talking to himself in a weird 3rd person sort of way. Besides, as far as I'm aware, it's been acknowledged in canon that he's talking to the reader, so its a moot point to begin with. - Ao feared that Mystra could potentially become too powerful and someday be on par with him, thus the reason she was forced to create so many Chosen. The Chosen are supposed to hold some of her divine power - and statistically speaking, this keeps her from rising above her current divine rank. That's never been confirmed one way or another, its simply a theory that sages have for why Mystra has Chosen, one of many theories in fact. We simply don't know much about her reasoning beyond a few irrelevant details that have no bearing on the discussion. As to most of your conclusions... I'd say a lot of them were up to considerable amounts of debate, going by my view of things anyway. - If Ao and another entity of equal or greater power were to come into conflict it would require them to assume lesser forms. The simple reason for this being that if they are both omnipotent they can simply will/wish the other out of existence. Additionally, being supremely powerful means that you are supremely crippled when fighting an equally powerful being who is also supremely powerful. You will at least need initiative rolls, to see who wills the other out of existence first. Why would there be a need to come into conflict in the first place with beings of that magnitude of power? And why would they be 'required' to assume lesser forms? Mutually assured destruction is a pretty good reason to avoid coming into conflict in the first place, and would seem far more likely course of action than some divine cage match... Thus, if you want to challenge Ao, you need a Divine Rank of at least 21. That's an idea I can get behind. Now how one goes about doing this is another question entirely...
Meldread 11-30-07, 07:34 AM	Read page 260 a bit more carefully, it clearly states that these are accepted as fact by historians, not that they are literal truth. Its origins are noted as coming from mythology and religious text, and so are unreliable as factual evidence. The simple fact there is that we don't know, but this is the sages best guess. Read page 260 a bit more carefully, it clearly states that these are accepted as fact by historians, not that they are literal truth. Its origins are noted as coming from mythology and religious text, and so are unreliable as factual evidence. The simple fact there is that we don't know, but this is the sages best guess. I am well aware of that, and if anyone else can come up with something that's been written down by a designer or in a source book that clearly states something otherwise, it's cannon and most likely to be true. Let's face it: They write that stuff down not for RP purposes, but so that they can cover their butts if they change their mind later. For all intents and purposes that is what happened until there is information stating otherwise. And even if we do go by that passage being true, it doesn't say Realmspace, it says Universe, which presumably holds many different worlds on it, so its not just the Faerunian pantheon he's dealing with, but the Pantheons of those worlds as well, which just makes him that much more 'powerful'... and certainly farther beyond mortal reach than we thought him before. Universe afterall implies something a tiny bit greater than a single solar system/crystal sphere. Yes, it says universe and when I say Realmspace I am encompassing everything within the Realmspace Universe - not just Faerun or Toril, but everything in existence within the Great Tree cosmology. That would include other planets, possibly even other solar systems, assuming they even exist. You've got to be a little careful with that logic, as its essentially unanswerable questions you're asking there. If its impossible for Ao to create himself, then the same likely would hold true for any 'master' he had, and lead into a circular cycle of constantly escalating entities ad infinitum, since they all had to come from somewhere. I'm well aware of that, but it's irrelevant. It is impossible for Ao to create himself, thus he cannot be the Universe/Realmspace manifested. Because of that there has to be a space between Universes that Ao existed before he created the Universe. It's quite possible that Ao was simply talking to himself in a weird 3rd person sort of way. Besides, as far as I'm aware, it's been acknowledged in canon that he's talking to the reader, so its a moot point to begin with. I highly doubt Ao is insane and is talking to himself in 3rd person. I'm not sure where in canon it says he is speaking to the reader, and even if it is - it does not change anything. There is -still- a being higher than Ao to which he must obey. It does not matter if it is the DM, because if it is the DM he can simply weave a higher being than Ao into existence. It does not matter how this issue is argued - a higher being than Ao exists - and this is canonical fact. That's never been confirmed one way or another, its simply a theory that sages have for why Mystra has Chosen, one of many theories in fact. We simply don't know much about her reasoning beyond a few irrelevant details that have no bearing on the discussion. Be that as it may, it's pretty irrelevant anyway. The fact of the matter is it is theoretically possible to challenge Ao provided you have enough power to do so (power measured in Divine Rank). Why would there be a need to come into conflict in the first place with beings of that magnitude of power? And why would they be 'required' to assume lesser forms? Mutually assured destruction is a pretty good reason to avoid coming into conflict in the first place, and would seem far more likely course of action than some divine cage match... Who knows why they would come into conflict? You have already established previously that Ao is beyond mortal comprehension and therefore any being capable of defeating Ao would be beyond mortal comprehension as well. Who is to say that Ao doesn't have enemies? There are certainly deities under his influence who want to get rid of him. Perhaps there is some great cosmic destroyer of worlds that seeks to undo all of creation. Additionally, battle between deities of this level of power are easy and short battles. All you have to do is figure out an initiative roll. Whoever wins that roll simply wills the other out of existence. End of combat. That is why that they must assume lesser forms, which can be statted. Because they are at a power level where initiative rolls do not even exist. They -always- go first, but if two beings of equal power -always- go first then you get caught in an endless loop of neither actually doing anything. You could roll a d20 and whoever has the highest roll gets to go first, but that's a rather unfair thing to do... and Beshaba could kill Ao right there. Curse him with some bad luck. Boom. He rolls a 1 and the other entity rolls a 2. Ao disappears from existence. Assuming lesser forms (that can be statted in game terms) ensure that it's a fair fight based on skill, luck and strategy. If I had to stat out a "lesser" form for Ao, he'd be a Divine Rank 20 Greater Deity (his Avatar), that is level 200, with a base 100 points in every attribute and skill, at minimum, 200 at maximum.
Rauric 11-30-07, 08:06 AM	All of this talk about AO makes me realize that I don't care for the concept so much. Never really disliked AO much until I read this discussion. I hate the term Realmspace as well. Especially since I picked up a few old Spelljammer stuff a few years ago and reread them. Why did I ever think that stuff was cool? Planscape, still ok. Spelljammer? Good god! FR people don't like these "How do I kill" threads and I cannot say I blame them much. Basically AO probably could take on every god at once even in their own turf. That is the impression I always got. You are not going to get much better than that. AO or its boss is the DM IMO. Again this is just my opinion. People blame 3E on all of this "I need to kill so and so" garbage but I remember people telling me stories of it happening in 1E and 2E as well. That is why I always figured Ed had a bunch of high lvl people around. Because his players probably were causing too much havoc. :D Thankfully my players arn't a bunch of tools like that.
Warning 11-30-07, 01:18 PM	-Destroying Ao likely destroys Realmspace, in turn, destroying you. That's a major D'oh! moment. He brought this upon himself....better to die free than to live a slave.
dethmetal 11-30-07, 01:57 PM	While this thread has been semi entertaining. it is also making my head hurt. i still don't get this desire to stat and kill/raid/just say hello to AO. after you get that accomplished what's next? go find the narrator, and kill him for telling your story? imo having these insanely powerfull characters that can go out and slay any creature every mentioned makes for a really boring story.
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:42 PM	He brought this upon himself....better to die free than to live a slave. Yet you condemn everything else in existence simply to satisfy some petty notion that you can't be truly free unless there is nothing with more power than you? Please... :rolleyes: As to Meldread, I'd respond to that post of yours, and perhaps will later, but I think for the most part I'm done with this thread.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 02:46 PM	He brought this upon himself....better to die free than to live a slave. Just because you're not all-powerful doesn't mean you're a slave.
Puritan13 11-30-07, 03:32 PM	Just because you're not all-powerful doesn't mean you're a slave.Q to the F to the E
Warning 11-30-07, 07:24 PM	Just because you're not all-powerful doesn't mean you're a slave. A leash to say the least then. Shar is dumb for wanting to destroy everyone in your logic, but no one complains of it, so why can't I do the same but more to an extreme.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 07:37 PM	A leash to say the least then. Shar is dumb for wanting to destroy everyone in your logic, but no one complains of it, so why can't I do the same but more to an extreme. No one complains about Shar? I'm sorry, but that's laughable. People complain about her here all the time, myself included.
Stigger 11-30-07, 07:50 PM	Sorry, Nihlism just kinda fails as a philosophy... and its even worse as a way of life. Life isn't fair, nor should it be. Deal with it, move on.
Sir_Shadow 11-30-07, 08:51 PM	I think its amusing that someone actually thinks that it would be possible to even think about killing AO without him knowing about it waaaaaay ahead of time. Any plans, plots, schemes, tricks you can think of, he knows. And if by some far off chance you even got close to being a threat, well AO would most likely, as would any deity or overdeity etc, take steps to make sure you didnt exist BEFORE you had a chance. You know, why is it no one ever sees "I killed Fzoul" or "I kill Cyric/Bane/Etc Etc" What exactly is the fascination with trying to kill the good guys anyways.
Warning 12-01-07, 12:26 PM	Sorry, Nihlism just kinda fails as a philosophy... and its even worse as a way of life. Life isn't fair, nor should it be. Deal with it, move on. Life is fair. Only people who believe in fairy-tales and superstition believe life is unfair. Life is exactly how you make it. If you get shot and you're an innocent person, life gave you the choice of free will of not going to the area where you got shot, dodging a bullet per say, shooting them back, and many many other possibilities. If life truly was unfair, no one would live it. I think its amusing that someone actually thinks that it would be possible to even think about killing AO without him knowing about it waaaaaay ahead of time. Any plans, plots, schemes, tricks you can think of, he knows. And if by some far off chance you even got close to being a threat, well AO would most likely, as would any deity or overdeity etc, take steps to make sure you didnt exist BEFORE you had a chance. You know, why is it no one ever sees "I killed Fzoul" or "I kill Cyric/Bane/Etc Etc" What exactly is the fascination with trying to kill the good guys anyways. Good guys? Who ever said I was going after good guys in specific? Who says that if the deity or overdeity were to take steps to finish me off before I didn't exist, is implying that the deity is fearful of finishing me off where he/she is at the current moment and must seek another advantage. And what says I do not have a time spell myself to counter such a situation. AO exist in FR, therefore he can be made none-existent.
GothicDan 12-01-07, 12:46 PM	Life is unfair by mortal standards. Just not universal ones.
Warning 12-01-07, 12:52 PM	Life is unfair by mortal standards. Just not universal ones. Humans consider life unfair. Humans are imperfect. Einstein: "The universe is infinite, and stupidity is infinite".
GothicDan 12-01-07, 12:54 PM	I know all about Einstein. :) I believe ultimately in self-empowerment. Part of that is knowing how much power you can gain by forming social bonds.
Meldread 12-01-07, 03:32 PM	I still think people are over looking some basic facts. Namely, in order to kill Ao, you'd need to be of comparable power to Ao. This is not impossible. If you have comparable power to Ao, it then means that you are also all-powerful, and thus you can prevent the universe from falling apart (assuming it would - I don't believe it would). You could say, of course, that Ao would simply smite you before you ever became such a threat. This may be true, but this is also the key challenge. It is very possible that Ao is bound by certain laws, similar to how the laws of physics work. Ao can do certain things, under certain circumstances, but under others he is forced to take a backseat and become nothing more than an observer. A good example of this could be when a deity is acting within their portfolios. No matter how hard Ao objects to a deities actions, if they are acting within their portfolios he cannot interfere with them. Thus, in terms of the 4E events, when Cyric killed Mystra Ao could not stop him because Cyric was the god of murder. He also had a legitimate reason to kill Mystra (long standing hatred). His actions and his methods were all on the up and up, and thus Ao could do nothing but watch as it happened. Now let us assume that you can now exploit this known weakness of Ao. You would need to do the following: 1. Become a deity. 2. Assume portfolios that would assist you toward your ultimate goal. 3. Work your ass off to gain divine rank until you've at least achieved a DvR of 21. 4. After this point, the D&D rules break down, but as a DM I would rule that if you wanted to challenge Ao he'd have to assume a lesser form (as would the PC deity in question). This is one method of dealing with Ao, but there are other, perhaps quicker and easier methods. 1. Leave the Universe and the Great Tree Cosmology. 2. Seek out another Overdeity or similarly powerful being. 3. Gain its support for challenging Ao. 4. Get them to fight it out. 5. Sit back and hope for the best. Those would be my two suggestions. I don't believe that there is -anything- within D&D that can't be beaten. I hate the word impossible, nothing is impossible if you are persistent and driven enough. As long as people are having fun, what difference does it make? Frankly, I just pretend Ao doesn't exist because I hate Ao as a concept.
Warning 12-01-07, 03:49 PM	Namely, in order to kill Ao, You need to be me. Also I love you Meldread, way to put AO lovers in thier place!
Meldread 12-01-07, 03:59 PM	In the intrest of full disclosure, even though I've already said it, I'll say it again. I hate the concept of Ao. His purpose was nothing more than a plot device, but it ended up making all of the deities seem like bratty-children by comparison. You had Big Daddy Ao, and then you had his little brats who he struggled to keep in line with the occasional threat or beating. Ao's game purpose is primarily to oversee the deities, ensure that they tend to their worshipers, and ensure that they act within their portfolios. This could have all been accomplished without the need of an Overdeity. Instead, all that was required were some cosmic laws being put into place that governed how the gods could operate. I am reminded of the genie from the Disney movie Aladdin. They get "Phenomenal cosmic powers", but they come with an "itty-bitty tiny expense." They become slaves to their portfolios, alignment and worshipers. Similar to how a genie is bound to his lamp, a deity is bound to his portfolios. It shapes his perceptions of the world and reality. It encompasses who that deity is and how he will act. To become a god is to gain "phenomenal cosmic powers" at the expense of your freedom. You lose everything that made you mortal. Similar to how a genie is bound to his master, a deity is bound to his followers. Belief in him fuels his power, but that belief also shapes who he is - if his followers begin to see him differently, then he could begin to change subtly. If, for example, the followers of Lathander begin to see him as Amaunator Reborn, Lathander will begin to take on some of Amaunator's old personality traits and portfolios. The deities could fight against this, of course, but if the followers of a heresy are persistent and numerous enough it may be too difficult to prevent. This accomplishes everything that Ao accomplishes without diminishing the role of the gods themselves, and actually makes becoming a deity less appealing. It also makes sense in the context of the planes. Why do powerful arch-devils spurn the gods? Why do they think of themselves superior? Because the gods are bound to their followers, they are slaves to their portfolios and their worshipers. A devil is free to act by his own choosing. This explains why certain arch-devils do not seek godhood, as well as powerful mortals. It also makes sense if put into the context of some former deities such as Myrkul, who is happier being in the Crown of Horns.
GothicDan 12-01-07, 04:00 PM	I hate AO, as do the majority of people who have been posting in his favor, I think. Or at least are neutral about him. Remember, some of us don't need to actively like something to show evidence for supporting it.
Puritan13 12-01-07, 04:19 PM	Warning? Where, exactly, is "Virgina"?
Warning 12-01-07, 04:28 PM	Warning? Where, exactly, is "Virgina"? Virginia? Whoops. Um, your face!
Puritan13 12-01-07, 04:35 PM	Virginia? Whoops. Um, your face!:rofl:
Stigger 12-01-07, 05:18 PM	Heh, Dan got it right in my case, I really don't care for him much. But he's there, and so we have to deal with him. As to fair or unfair... you make my head hurt Warning. But to each their own.
Meldread 12-01-07, 05:45 PM	No, we don't have to deal with him. I just ignore him to the point that he might as well not even exist. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-01-07, 06:05 PM	Life is fair. Only people who believe in fairy-tales and superstition believe life is unfair. Life is exactly how you make it. If you get shot and you're an innocent person, life gave you the choice of free will of not going to the area where you got shot, dodging a bullet per say, shooting them back, and many many other possibilities. If life truly was unfair, no one would live it. Thank you for such an enlightening philosophical session.
Warning 12-02-07, 01:21 PM	Thank you for such an enlightening philosophical session. Sarcastic are we? No thank you then. If you weren't, I appreicate it then. As Stigger said, to each his/her own.
Lord Karsus 12-02-07, 02:44 PM	-I don't get it. What does Virginia have to do with anything? :confused:
Warning 12-02-07, 02:50 PM	-I don't get it. What does Virginia have to do with anything? :confused: On my location, I had typed "Virgina", where as the correct spelling is "Virginia". It was just a typo error that was corrected.
Lord Karsus 12-02-07, 03:05 PM	On my location, I had typed "Virgina", where as the correct spelling is "Virginia". It was just a typo error that was corrected. -Heh. Oh, okay. :)
Warning 12-02-07, 05:56 PM	So um, before this topic dies, we all agree AO can die and does has stats? TOPIC COMPLETE MISSION ACOMPLISHED GG
Puritan13 12-02-07, 05:58 PM	So um, before this topic dies, we all agree AO can die and does has stats?Nope. IMC Ao cannot die, and has no stats. But if your DM allows you to attack and fight Ao, let me know how it goes.
Lord Karsus 12-02-07, 06:45 PM	So um, before this topic dies, we all agree AO can die and does has stats? -If you mean die, as in what we do, then no on that point, and yes on the second.
Warning 12-03-07, 08:25 AM	Nope. IMC Ao cannot die, and has no stats. I'd rather you respond that to Meldread than me. He/she had a very detailed explanation as to why AO has stats and can (and will in my case) die. To let this persons persepctive on this go to waste would be unfair. I made this topic because I was unsure, so to argue with me that I am wrong because I simply said something as silly as "I am right" would be unsetteling. Take all the views 1st that have a possbility and sort them out for flaws then say AO can or can't do this. So far, Meldread's theory is more compelling than Puritan or Karsus's "Nope, Ao does not!". At leaste he/she gave the reason to as of why.
Rauric 12-03-07, 08:55 AM	Hopefully all of this will not matter in 4E. I wonder ifthey plan on doing away with AO with the new edition?
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 09:00 AM	So far, Meldread's theory is more compelling than Puritan or Karsus's "Nope, Ao does not!". At leaste he/she gave the reason to as of why. -I already told you that Ao has stats, and I provided them.
Warning 12-03-07, 09:00 AM	Hopefully all of this will not matter in 4E. I wonder ifthey plan on doing away with AO with the new edition? Well do you think anyone has gained out of AO? Or only complaints so far?
PheLioZ 12-04-07, 09:12 AM	First post here... hullo all :D From my point of view, a mortal killing a god is already impossible, even if you got 60th character level or something like that... There are very powerful abilities like Alter Reality (copy all 9th level or lower spells for free?!) and divine splendor (mortal = dead, no saving throw)... You could, however, create some "aspect of AO" (not an avatar!!) whose power level would probably fall to the level of a greater deity or so, and try killing it with a Divine Rank 16+ 60th Level character... But that is just cheating :P
Stigger 12-04-07, 04:14 PM	Hello and welcome. :)
Warning 12-04-07, 04:34 PM	Hello and welcome. :) Yes hello and welcome, also, do we conceed the fact that AO can be killed and has stats? Since Meldread's post, I have seen none to disagree with a compelling statement. GG
Stigger 12-04-07, 04:40 PM	No, but as I don't care to pointlessly argue the matter any further with you, you can think whatever you like. :P
Warning 12-04-07, 04:48 PM	No, but as I don't care to pointlessly argue the matter any further with you, you can think whatever you like. :P Dude chill, it wasn't a argument. I started this topic asking a simple question (well maye not so simple). Then people started a hissy fit. I am only debating so I can get my answer. If the 2nd post would have given me an answer, that would have been all I needed and this topic would have been done. AO can be killed just like Drizzt can be killed. Will either of them die though? Never. That I promise you.
Stigger 12-04-07, 05:04 PM	Note the :P Besides, I already suggested stats to you. 100 in all attributes, 20 levels, at least, in all of the core classes, every divine ability listed in F&P... what else do you need to know? Everything can be worked out from just that information, unless you're saying you're too lazy to work it out and want someone else to do it for you... ;)
Lord Karsus 12-04-07, 05:19 PM	Everything can be worked out from just that information, unless you're saying you're too lazy to work it out and want someone else to do it for you... ;) -There's character generators to do all that, with the exception of the divine abilities or whatever.
Stigger 12-04-07, 05:22 PM	CMP's wasn't bad (wasn't really great either though), but really limited in a lot of respects I found. And horribly slow after the first 30 levels... haven't really tried any others in depth, beyond the trial thing, most just didn't suit my tastes.
Warning 12-04-07, 05:58 PM	Note the :P Besides, I already suggested stats to you. 100 in all attributes, 20 levels, at least, Double it, he will need it. Only one of us walks away.You die before me. Your destiny is in my hands. You are soon to see. My one desire is to rule this world eternally. You will never reach me. I am the darkest one. You will never heal me. A mind beyond repair. I will make you fear me. I slay your hopes and dreams. You're lost forever, in this world of mine. This very morbid mind of mine. Will set your course into and early grave. I twist your fate and seal your doom. I bit you welcome - my eternal slave
Karsus the Mad 12-04-07, 07:09 PM	Yes hello and welcome, also, do we conceed the fact that AO can be killed and has stats? Since Meldread's post, I have seen none to disagree with a compelling statement. GG No, and Yes, insofar as the one statting him is the luminous being he reports to.....which is Stigger. I'm stating it, thus it must be compelling....such is universal law... Double it, he will need it. Only one of us walks away.You die before me. Your destiny is in my hands. You are soon to see. My one desire is to rule this world eternally. You will never reach me. I am the darkest one. You will never heal me. A mind beyond repair. I will make you fear me. I slay your hopes and dreams. You're lost forever, in this world of mine. This very morbid mind of mine. Will set your course into and early grave. I twist your fate and seal your doom. I bit you welcome - my eternal slave Huh...a 15 year old:ayyyy!:
Stigger 12-04-07, 08:32 PM	:evillaugh Yes, bow to me... or not. I'm into free will that way. ;) :D
Karsus the Mad 12-04-07, 08:42 PM	:evillaugh Yes, bow to me... or not. I'm into free will that way. ;) :D How much will you pay, hmmm?
Lord Karsus 12-04-07, 08:42 PM	-And, remember, make it double.
Stigger 12-04-07, 08:45 PM	I don't pay anything, but I don't really do anything if you choose not to either. Come of your own free will, or don't come at all is my motto afterall. :D
Warning 12-05-07, 04:02 AM	Huh...a 15 year old:ayyyy!: I'm 12....what's your excuse?
Stigger 12-05-07, 06:52 AM	That explains a whole lot...
Lord Karsus 12-05-07, 08:30 AM	I'm 12....what's your excuse? -He's kinda 'the Mad'. That explains a whole lot... -Indeed.
GothicDan 12-05-07, 08:44 AM	12? Aw, that's so cute.
Karsus the Mad 12-05-07, 11:52 AM	I'm 12....what's your excuse? Personal entertainment:whatsthis
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-05-07, 12:00 PM	That explains a whole lot... :heehee
Sol_Odlanier 12-05-07, 12:46 PM	I'm 12....what's your excuse? :eek: is he Fo real?
Warning 12-05-07, 01:03 PM	:eek: is he Fo real? Rofl, are you fo real? Unbelievable! My mommy says if I do good on my spelling test, I can stay up until 10pm tonight and post more! Wish me luck guys, tee hee
Puritan13 12-05-07, 01:45 PM	I'm 12....what's your excuse?Well no wonder then. This explains a lot. I was hesitant to state it before, but wanting stats for Ao is an incredibly munchkin thing to ask for.
Warning 12-05-07, 01:54 PM	Well no wonder then. This explains a lot. I was hesitant to state it before, but wanting stats for Ao is an incredibly munchkin thing to ask for. Or a revolutionary thing to ask. "Does the sun really revolve around the earth? Because I seen the shadow on the moon and I don't think it's true." Fathers response: "Of course it does, that's silly to argue against something no one has ever thought of before".........Please don't limit your minds people...thanks. The Dumbest question is the one not asked
Puritan13 12-05-07, 01:57 PM	Warning, you're either gonna be a really cool guy, or a complete turd when you grow up. You have a decent sense of humor, so my money is on "cool".
Warning 12-05-07, 02:07 PM	Warning, you're either gonna be a really cool guy, or a complete turd when you grow up. You have a decent sense of humor, so my money is on "cool". 3rd option......a mastermind.
Puritan13 12-05-07, 02:22 PM	Y'know, megalomania is psychologically aberrant.
Warning 12-05-07, 02:38 PM	Suggesting I may need psychiatric help? This coming from kids who play games pretending they're in some fantasy world full of elves and goblins... Good times, good times...
GothicDan 12-05-07, 02:47 PM	Hitlerism != RPG nerd.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-05-07, 03:09 PM	Or a revolutionary thing to ask. "Does the sun really revolve around the earth? Because I seen the shadow on the moon and I don't think it's true." Fathers response: "Of course it does, that's silly to argue against something no one has ever thought of before".........Please don't limit your minds people...thanks. The Dumbest question is the one not asked So you're basically putting yourself on par with those who questioned the concept of the Earth as the center of the universe?
Warning 12-05-07, 03:13 PM	So you're basically putting yourself on par with those who questioned the concept of the Earth as the center of the universe? On the contrary Rino, I am putting these anti-Ao stat posters on par with those who did not question the Earths concept as the center of the universe.
Puritan13 12-05-07, 03:30 PM	On the contrary Rino, I am putting these anti-Ao stat posters on par with those who did not question the Earths concept as the center of the universe.Here's a little something that will blow your mind. Theoretically, the Earth is the center of the universe. See, in theory, the universe is infinite. Being infinite, it has an infinite number of centers. Having an infinite number of centers means that every point in that universe is the center of that universe. I am the center of the universe and so are you.
Warning 12-05-07, 03:41 PM	Here's a little something that will blow your mind. Theoretically, the Earth is the center of the universe. See, in theory, the universe is infinite. Being infinite, it has an infinite number of centers. Having an infinite number of centers means that every point in that universe is the center of that universe. I am the center of the universe and so are you. Ok, the sun revolving around the earth is a completely different theory then your hypothetical assumption of philosophy. I was using something called "an analogy". But these days, anything can be twisted around to it's actual meaning. Some people think that since Jesus says turn the other cheek when you are hit, "oh you didn't hit me in the cheek, therefore I can hit you back!".
Karsus the Mad 12-05-07, 04:06 PM	Suggesting I may need psychiatric help? This coming from kids who play games pretending they're in some fantasy world full of elves and goblins... Good times, good times... You make me laugh. I like you :)
Stigger 12-05-07, 04:07 PM	Comparing the thought of killing a fictional deific being with something that can be proven or disproven with empirical observation and experimentation is amusing.
Warning 12-05-07, 04:21 PM	Comparing the thought of killing a fictional deific being with something that can be proven or disproven with empirical observation and experimentation is amusing. Killing a deity is easy, even in real life. Jesus who? He is hater of the rotten Earth He is the nova that will drape the sky in woe We drink from his poisoned water He is lord of those who dwell bound in sickness Spitting vomit in the face of faith Cleansing us who must atone for being weak We drink from his poisoned water He is the shadow cast upon those defiled Victorious call It will not befall No salvation is free Death comes beckoning thee Encircle thee Voices come in wind Son of perdition You come beckoning me The sky embedded in the death of a nova Effigy is seen in a second of light No voice in the crack of his mouth Bastard son of God
Stigger 12-05-07, 04:26 PM	Defamation of character doesn't quite qualify as killing a deity, unless you're going for character assassination, in which case, you need to get others to buy into it in significant numbers... ;)
Warning 12-05-07, 04:31 PM	You are ruling the possibility of popular consensus out playing a reality perspective?
Stigger 12-05-07, 04:46 PM	No, but you kinda need to get that popular consensus before you achieve paradigmatic shift... on at least a continental scale.
Warning 12-05-07, 04:50 PM	No, but you kinda need to get that popular consensus before you achieve paradigmatic shift... on at least a continental scale. "If a million people do something wrong, it's still wrong". Stigger, in your opinion, if everyone in the world is crazy, and you are sane...doesn't that make you the crazy one?
Stigger 12-05-07, 04:53 PM	Yes, it does. Sanity, more specifically what and what doesn't constitutes it, is defined by the society at large, not an objective "true" definition. The majority defines the norm, and so if you deviate from that, you are the abberrant one in the equation.
Warning 12-05-07, 05:37 PM	Yes, it does. Sanity, more specifically what and what doesn't constitutes it, is defined by the society at large, not an objective "true" definition. The majority defines the norm, and so if you deviate from that, you are the abberrant one in the equation. But the society at large is what makes it right even if it's not, if this makes any sense to you. Let's say if being an Atheist I was right, there is no God, it wouldn't matter. Depending on a majority scale as you had mentioned, people will delude themselves into believing a lie into a absolute truth. As I said, if the whole world is crazy and you are not...now you are the crazy one.:crazy:
Sol_Odlanier 12-05-07, 06:20 PM	You know "Warnning" is pretty smart FOR A KID!!!! :D
BadCatMan 12-05-07, 06:57 PM	Ah, 12. You know, you really should work on your poetry. Or show it to a psychiatrist. :p Looking for the stats of Ao is nowhere near the scale of questioning whether or not the sun goes around the earth in the face of millennia of scholarly and religious dogma and oppression. For one thing, it's pointless. For another, you just want to test uber builds or something, don't you? No-one's going to build the character for you. We can only give you rough advice: stats are irrelevent, infinite or arbitarily high. Okay, here: Expert 40, DvR 21+. Knock yourself out. Theoretically, the Earth is the center of the universe. See, in theory, the universe is infinite. Being infinite, it has an infinite number of centers. Having an infinite number of centers means that every point in that universe is the center of that universe. I am the center of the universe and so are you. Not quite. The universe is (probably) not infinite, but it is boundless - there is no edge to the universe.* Your point holds, however, as there is still no centre. For example, there is no centre to the Earth's surface either. * That is, the universe is the 3D surface of a 4D sphere. Or possibly a Poincare Dodecahedron or some other funky multi-dimensional shape.
Warning 12-05-07, 07:22 PM	Ah, 12. You know, you really should work on your poetry. Or show it to a psychiatrist. :p Looking for the stats of Ao is nowhere near the scale of questioning whether or not the sun goes around the earth in the face of millennia of scholarly and religious dogma and oppression. For one thing, it's pointless. For another, you just want to test uber builds or something, don't you? No-one's going to build the character for you. We can only give you rough advice: stats are irrelevent, infinite or arbitarily high. Okay, here: Expert 40, DvR 21+. Knock yourself out. Not quite. The universe is (probably) not infinite, but it is boundless - there is no edge to the universe.* Your point holds, however, as there is still no centre. For example, there is no centre to the Earth's surface either. * That is, the universe is the 3D surface of a 4D sphere. Or possibly a Poincare Dodecahedron or some other funky multi-dimensional shape. PMS isn't fun:mad: Thanks for the stats though dude. And it's quite amusing how you inquire such imposing ferocities of our systems conclusive infinite mass. The dilemma we now acquire is not within the confound basis of which you presented it in it's 3 dimensional atmospheric array, but in it's nature that the entities surpasses even among it's confines we hold ourselves contempt to. Abstract the relevance that we as sapiens, are in the 23 dimensional sphere of purgatory essence. I merely intend to out seek our rising potential to the push point of it's limitations (if we have any of course) where as the realistic output can only precipitate that which is. So let AO extend further beyond our grasp of knowledge for the time being. Allah,Jesus,God or whatever is defined as infinite to those who accept it. But as Einstein once said, "the universe is infinite and stupidity is infinite", so please do not push all your inquiries into a single ideal. It is said that time tells all.
Stigger 12-05-07, 07:29 PM	But the society at large is what makes it right even if it's not, if this makes any sense to you. Let's say if being an Atheist I was right, there is no God, it wouldn't matter. Depending on a majority scale as you had mentioned, people will delude themselves into believing a lie into a absolute truth. As I said, if the whole world is crazy and you are not...now you are the crazy one.:crazy: Society is what defines what is correct and what isn't as far as social constructs are concerned. Behaviour, religion, psychology, most 'soft' sciences... they're more the result of current social beliefs than some objective truth. Take a look at anthropology just 50 years ago, it was shaped almost completely from a Eurocentric 'White Man's Burden' perspective, and only now are we beginning to escape the gravity of that thinking. Is the new way of looking at it correct? As far as we're concerned yes. 50 years ago the current views would have been laughable, if not downright dangerous thinking. Looking through the ages, the definition of insanity has changed radically through the centuries and decades, as has our views of it. And that's just from a western perspective... other regions had widely varying views of it. No matter what anyone tells you, science is a remarkably political beast, and our social views tend to influence far more than we'd probably like it to. From funding issues, to interpretation of data, most, if not all of it goes through something of a filter of politics, be it personal politics, or wider political agendas. That's human nature I think. As to the existance of God versus atheism... absolute truth versus shades of gray... it all goes back to our hard-wiring for pattern finding. We look for ways to explain the things we experience, some do it through science, others do it through religion. It doesn't matter which ultimately, at least as far as I'm concerned, as they're both simply ways of explaining the universe to ourselves. Certainly science has the edge in being provable (well, as provable as anything really is), but that doesn't mean that religion doesn't still work as an explanation for those who chose to believe in it. I kinda rambled there... oh well.
BadCatMan 12-05-07, 08:01 PM	PMS isn't fun:mad: Thanks for the stats though dude. And it's quite amusing how you inquire such imposing ferocities of our systems conclusive infinite mass. The dilemma we now acquire is not within the confound basis of which you presented it in it's 3 dimensional atmospheric array, but in it's nature that the entities surpasses even among it's confines we hold ourselves contempt to. Abstract the relevance that we as sapiens, are in the 23 dimensional sphere of purgatory essence. I merely intend to out seek our rising potential to the push point of it's limitations (if we have any of course) where as the realistic output can only precipitate that which is. So let AO extend further beyond our grasp of knowledge for the time being. Allah,Jesus,God or whatever is defined as infinite to those who accept it. But as Einstein once said, "the universe is infinite and stupidity is infinite", so please do not push all your inquiries into a single ideal. It is said that time tells all. I'm sorry, but you are talking absolute nonsense.
Warning 12-05-07, 08:04 PM	I'm sorry, but you are talking absolute nonsense. I wanted to see how long it took for people to figure it out lol. But thanks for giving it a read. I just threw some fancy words together from the top of my head that wasn't incoherent and hoped for a persuasion of the best. I wanted you to feel outdone. Meh, good for you though, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". Neither was the case.
Stigger 12-05-07, 08:06 PM	Hate to tell you, but it wasn't all that coherent really...
Warning 12-05-07, 08:12 PM	Hate to tell you, but it wasn't all that coherent really... Lack of vocabulary on your part? Or lack of sense on mine?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-05-07, 08:15 PM	I didn't see any heavy-duty vocabulary words in there. Besides, it's not what words you know, it's how you use them. Throwing a bunch of words together and hoping they make sense is hardly impressive.
Warning 12-05-07, 08:20 PM	I didn't see any heavy-duty vocabulary words in there. Besides, it's not what words you know, it's how you use them. Throwing a bunch of words together and hoping they make sense is hardly impressive. You wouldn't hurt a 12 year olds feeling would Rino? :weep:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-05-07, 08:21 PM	You wouldn't hurt a 12 year olds feeling would Rino? :weep: Everyone here is fair game.
Warning 12-05-07, 08:22 PM	Everyone here is fair game. Together...we could have ruled the world! You just made a powerful enemy.....
Sol_Odlanier 12-05-07, 10:57 PM	Hey! Catreful how you talk to a Lady Kid, don't make me hit you with my belt now...
MarkusTay63 12-05-07, 11:28 PM	Yes - you leave her be, you houligan! :fight!: She's as close to a 'princess' as we have around here. :D lots of 'would-be' gods, though.... :rolleyes:
Sol_Odlanier 12-05-07, 11:49 PM	he almost made me use my +5,(ubbergeek)Bane,Holy,flamming, pootie tang belt...
GothicDan 12-06-07, 02:02 AM	I'll totally vote Rino Princess of the Boards. (As long as I can be Prince Archmage.)
Stigger 12-06-07, 02:08 AM	You are all as nothing to me... Though I'll go along with Rino as princess, so long as she swears upon pain of unutterable torment and pain never to get locked in a tower awaiting rescue by adventurers... oh, and it was lack of sense on your part warning. Here's an idea, go play with your legos and leave the big words to the grownups, k? :P ;) oh, and another thing... :evillaugh
Warning 12-06-07, 05:55 AM	Arch wizards...princess...Gods....pfff...I could do that and better. And do it at 12! You will see My burning inferno And there is no way In your wildest dreams That you can say no I suffocate your soul And drain you of your lifeblood The breathing darkness here Will make you disappear There is no return I steal your soul And carve a hole right where your heart once used to be I watch you die I hear you cry It fills my soul with such delight You are lost You are entering a dead world Wherever you will turn You will see your spirit burn Your life is over Now it's time to return To the world up above And invite you to burn Oh, the ones that I seek Are defenseless and weak Soon their hearts will be mine And no one can slip From my powerful grip I was born to deceive The smell of your flesh So rancid and fresh It keeps me alive
Che 12-06-07, 07:40 AM	Killing a deity is easy, even in real life. Jesus who? Well... I mean really... this just makes no sense whatsoever... If he was a deity, then he really did rise from the grave and isn't dead and thus he wasn't so much killed as he was relocated. If he wasn't a deity, then they didn't really accomplish anything spectacular at all. Either way, you have completely failed to prove killing a deity would be easy or, for that matter, possible. In fact, you've proven that the only way to kill a deity is for that deity to not be a deity at all... which, I believe is quite the opposite of your actual intent. Can't have it both ways, Warning, my boy. In the future, at least try to apply logic to your arguments instead of just quoting bad Swedish deathmetal as though it were empirical evidence.
Lord Karsus 12-06-07, 07:46 AM	-Man, I don't post for 24 hours, and look at what I miss!
Asgetrion 12-06-07, 08:52 AM	I'll totally vote Rino Princess of the Boards. (As long as I can be Prince Archmage.) Seconded! (As long as I can be the grumpy, old Court Wizard) ;) :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-06-07, 09:43 AM	*is flattered that everyone here wants to make her a princess*:embarrass Don't worry, if I'm locked in a tower...it's because I just want some time to myself!:)
Warning 12-06-07, 11:06 AM	Well... I mean really... this just makes no sense whatsoever... If he was a deity, then he really did rise from the grave and isn't dead and thus he wasn't so much killed as he was relocated. If he wasn't a deity, then they didn't really accomplish anything spectacular at all. Either way, you have completely failed to prove killing a deity would be easy or, for that matter, possible. In fact, you've proven that the only way to kill a deity is for that deity to not be a deity at all... which, I believe is quite the opposite of your actual intent. Can't have it both ways, Warning, my boy. In the future, at least try to apply logic to your arguments instead of just quoting bad Swedish deathmetal as though it were empirical evidence. STOP LOL! I was cracking up for the past min reading this. I don't believe in Jesus because I do not believe in Mother Goose. It was a joke when I wrote that. How would you want me to apply more logic to a illogical myth? I love how people will think I'm crazy if I told them I can fly, yet they will believe that someone can walk on water 2k years old they never met. Ridiculous. BTW, what's wrong with Bloodbath? Try Impending Doom or Debauchery for great European death metal bands. I make Gothic Dan listen to them all the time over aim, but I doubt he likes it lol.
Stigger 12-06-07, 11:19 AM	You're not the son of God, so of course you can't fly... geez. Silly Warning. ;)
Warning 12-06-07, 11:22 AM	You're not the son of God, so of course you can't fly... geez. Silly Warning. ;) But I am real, so therefore I should be more believable....also I'm not on a religious rant to bash any religion but, Herculies, son of Zeus was around the same time as Jesus according to the history time line...
Karsus the Mad 12-06-07, 11:32 AM	I love how people will think I'm crazy if I told them I can fly Nah. It's when you jump from a building to prove it that people begin questioning your sanity. But I am real, so therefore I should be more believable It's not whether you should be more believable or not, but rather that you're far more easier to dismiss.
Warning 12-06-07, 11:38 AM	Most fail to conceive that there was once a time when everyone believed in God and the Church ruled. This was called the Dark Ages. Yes, go ahead and look up a time lime. Anyway, I hate how people are notifying how AO can not consist of stats because he is divine? That's nothing more than some being with more power than another. If AO gave me his powers...I would still be me...living...just powerful. So thanks again for stats those of you who are logical and thought this through without thinking "impossible! No one has asked this before...we should just discard it"
Karsus the Mad 12-06-07, 12:20 PM	Anyway, I hate how people are notifying how AO can not consist of stats because he is divine? Ao is not divine, at least in the DnD usage of the term. Deities in DnD, just as mortals, are subject to the limitations of the game mechanics. There's rules for deities in Deities and Demigods. There are no game mechanics for entities above Greater God status however (other than simply making it according to the standard deity rules while adding +1 DvR). Ao is not a quasi-deity (DvR 0), he's not a demi-god (DvR 1-5), he's not a lesser deity (DvR 6-10), or an intermediate deity (DvR 11-15), or even a greater deity (DvR 16-20). He is an overdeity (DvR 21+). He has, seemingly, omnipotent authority and power over all reality within Realmspace. How do you quantify such a concept with numbers? Over on the Epic Boards, there's a thread about statting the Lady of Pain (Ao is mentioned in there somewhere). That's nothing more than some being with more power than another. If AO gave me his powers...I would still be me...living...just powerful. You think :) This is rather subjective of course, but a possible way to see is to take previous mortals who have gained divinity and see how they've changed. Sure, Midnight is still Midnight, but she's nolonger just Midnight. She's also Mystra and Mystryl, with all the divine baggage those two previous incarnations carried. She's bound to her portfolio and must act accordingly. She simply isn't able to just "be herself". When you become a god, you're not going to be able to remain the exact same person you were before. You're now bound within the parimeters of your divine duties to your portfolio, not to mention anything else about being divine (all the perks, near limitless comprehension, wisdom greater than a mortal could ever achieve, etc). Just my two coppers anyway. So thanks again for stats those of you who are logical and thought this through without thinking "impossible! No one has asked this before...we should just discard it" Lots of people ask it, and will do so in the future. All in all, it's pretty much the same thread every time. You could try looking into the Immortals Handbook for tips. It's likely to be far more applicable when attempting to numerically quantify such entities, as the DnD rules simply fall way short imo. Dicefreak rules are another possible solution.
dethmetal 12-06-07, 12:26 PM	Anyway, I hate how people are notifying how AO can not consist of stats because he is divine? That's nothing more than some being with more power than another. If AO gave me his powers...I would still be me...living...just powerful. So thanks again for stats those of you who are logical and thought this through without thinking "impossible! No one has asked this before...we should just discard it" You're kind of missing the point. It's not that it's "OMG!!!111 no one has asked this before it can't be done!" It's more that there is no reason for it to be done. Ok, you as a player somehow find out about AO, which should be hard to begin with because it's not like he's ever had a chruch or anything more then the most obscure ancient writings would even mention him IMO. Ok, so hurdle one overcame, you've managed to learn that AO exists and is out there somewhere, and somehow you manage to find a way to find where his "physical" presence is and initiate a fight. Somehow you manage to win. Congradulations you're now the most powerfull being in realmspace...what now? You could go to other realms and challenege thier uber divine being, but that's going to get old fast as your entire game is the constant same thing. pick realm a, kill god like being a, move to realm b rinse repeat. You're taking this idea, that was meant as a plot tool, to help keep campaigns in check, and turning it into the final boss in a videogame. To each thier own though, if that's the game you want to play more power to you.
Warning 12-06-07, 12:32 PM	It's so dumb how you imply just because he has authority over realmspace, therefore that should nullify him from any classification other than overdeity. I'm sure a mortal would say the same about a lesser God because it is something beyond them. Well, if hypothetically there was something beyond AO, wouldn't he be classified in order to be differentiated? If AO can create/take and do other various actions, he is a being. You could even have a conversation with him! Or shake his hand! His classification is beyond us, but not beyond classification itself. Get over it, I'm going to curb stomp AO.
Karsus the Mad 12-06-07, 12:40 PM	It's so dumb how you imply just because he has authority over realmspace, therefore that should nullify him from any classification other than overdeity. Little kid, I do not imply Ao is an overdeity simply because he has authority over Realmspace. He IS the overdeity of Toril. Please read page 258 of the FRCS. I'm sure a mortal would say the same about a lesser God because it is something beyond them. Well, if hypothetically there was something beyond AO, wouldn't he be classified in order to be differentiated? He is classified. He's an overgod. If AO can create/take and do other various actions, he is a being. You could even have a conversation with him! Or shake his hand! His classification is beyond us, but not beyond classification itself. Get over it, I'm going to curb stomp AO. Ummm....k:) You run along and do that. I hope you have fun, for that's the point. Huh. I just noticed. That page I mentioned above. "Ao is impervious to all attacks, even by a concerted effort of all the divine powers, and has no known realm among the planes." I'd never noticed that before.
Warning 12-06-07, 12:51 PM	Oh no! He pulled out the book of justice on me! page 258 of the FRCS.!! No wonder he called me kid, I got spanked right there. What are you like, the DnD police to put people in their place who go against statistics? Yeah, AO can die and has Stats, all I needed to know. Thanks! And I will have fun tearing him a new ass. And just for you Judge Dred, I will PM how it happen.
Karsus the Mad 12-06-07, 01:00 PM	Oh no! He pulled out the book of justice on me! page 258 of the FRCS.!! No wonder he called me kid, I got spanked right there. What are you like, the DnD police to put people in their place who go against statistics? Yeah, AO can die and has Stats, all I needed to know. Thanks! And I will have fun tearing him a new ass. And just for you Judge Dred, I will PM how it happen. You nailed it precisely. That's me. I'm detective KtM. I search out and investigate forum members to see whether or not they're following the letter of the published material. Darn you. You blew my cover. I'm going to have to sign in under another username now. Years of undercover work ruined:allalone: It is funny tho' that you first complain when people don't give statistics for Ao, then complain when someone does give what little statistics are known. <shrugs> Looking forward to how you do it :)
MarkusTay63 12-06-07, 02:39 PM	Yes, go ahead and look up a time lime.Would you use one of those in a Chrono-Corona? :P
Warning 12-06-07, 02:41 PM	Would you use one of those in a Chrono-Corona? :P Give me a break, the N is next to the M. :embarrass
MarkusTay63 12-06-07, 03:15 PM	Just making a joke - I really can't see contributing to this thread in any other way without being considered 'rude'. ;) Ao doesn't exist (in any approachable way) IMG, and gods are inviolate, so I can't be of any help to you, sorry.
Warning 12-06-07, 03:31 PM	Just making a joke - I really can't see contributing to this thread in any other way without being considered 'rude'. ;) Ao doesn't exist (in any approachable way) IMG, and gods are inviolate, so I can't be of any help to you, sorry. Then AO isn't in FR. He isn't in any novels. No one has heard of "his" name. Even though "he" has a gender. According to your "none-existing logic". Which is very contridicting might I add.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-06-07, 05:02 PM	Let me break it down for you kid, AO's stat are the ones you want to give them, is just a chararter from a novel that there's simply no rules to make a character so powerful. so if you want to make some house rules to make entities with a DivR of 21+ hey, it's your game have fun, and if you want to post what you did and how, is all good too. but there's no standard rules to make Over-dieties,
Stigger 12-06-07, 07:04 PM	And even if there was, it would still fall down to bickering over what abilities you did or didn't give him... too gimp, too uber, too whatever. No one is ever going to agree with them any way you want to build him.
BadCatMan 12-06-07, 07:42 PM	More fun facts: Jesus is a real historical figure (and more real than Mother Goose). You don't have to believe in his existence, because his existence is a matter of historical record. What you can choose to believe is whether or not he could do magic tricks, was the son of God, and in existence of said God. Jesus is more real than Heracles (the original Greek name, Hercules being the later Latinised form), who only exists as a mythic figure, with little historical evidence to support his existence. And they sure as Hades weren't contemporaries: the myths date back to before 1200 BC, at least. (You know, BC.) You know, if you're going to ask questions, you could try being grateful when people give you answers.
Sol_Odlanier 12-06-07, 08:13 PM	He's like a hyper vertion of Ubber geek;)
Warning 12-07-07, 12:18 PM	More fun facts: Jesus is a real historical figure (and more real than Mother Goose). You don't have to believe in his existence, because his existence is a matter of historical record. What you can choose to believe is whether or not he could do magic tricks, was the son of God, and in existence of said God. Jesus is more real than Heracles (the original Greek name, Hercules being the later Latinised form), who only exists as a mythic figure, with little historical evidence to support his existence. And they sure as Hades weren't contemporaries: the myths date back to before 1200 BC, at least. (You know, BC.) You know, if you're going to ask questions, you could try being grateful when people give you answers. No he was not, I was implying that since we know Hercules isn't real and he was said to be alive roughly around the same time as Jesus, it goes to show how delusional people are. Can you show me the original copy of the bible? No? The latest version copy we have is 4th century..sad..couldn't keep this holy book? Someone just lost it? If he was real, which just by seeing in a book saying he was, does not make him real (because there are how many books with different gods? And they can't all be right), what says when he walked on water, there wasn't a heat wave? When he was "resurrected", he did not wake from a coma? Doubt is what gets you an education. We dance around in a ring and suppose, while the secret sits in the middle and knows." -Robert Frost
Mifelhagen 12-07-07, 12:39 PM	i just don't get peoples need to stat divine beings. Why stat a divine being? Well, how about the fact that they are constantly getting knocked off? How about the fact that portfolios under new management every 30 years or so? That kind of stuff is why you stat them. Obviously, if they are constantly getting killed they must have hit points. And we all know that having hit points means that you can die if the hit points are in the "negative" range.
captaincarot 12-07-07, 01:01 PM	ao's stats are exactly what they need to be to ensure absolute success in anything that he decides to do. plus he has the special ability. of his will = reality. and there aint no save against it.
captaincarot 12-07-07, 01:04 PM	More fun facts: Jesus is a real historical figure (and more real than Mother Goose). You don't have to believe in his existence, because his existence is a matter of historical record. What you can choose to believe is whether or not he could do magic tricks, was the son of God, and in existence of said God. Jesus is more real than Heracles (the original Greek name, Hercules being the later Latinised form), who only exists as a mythic figure, with little historical evidence to support his existence. And they sure as Hades weren't contemporaries: the myths date back to before 1200 BC, at least. (You know, BC.) You know, if you're going to ask questions, you could try being grateful when people give you answers. where is the documentary evidence for your assertions. and don't say the bible. that's as reliable a historical record as the lord of the rings.
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 01:24 PM	No he was not, I was implying that since we know Hercules isn't real and he was said to be alive roughly around the same time as Jesus... -Uh, the times of Jesus and Hercules were seperated by hundreds of years. That hardly makes them contemporaries. Classical Greece, where the story of Hercules came from, ended circa the 4th or 5th century, B.C. Jesus was born and executed five hundred years later. Can you show me the original copy of the bible? -Do you even know what the Christan Bible is? A collection of letters, stories and such, coupled with the Tanakh. The original Christian Bible would simply be the first source that catalogued them all together. where is the documentary evidence for your assertions. -Roman records that state that one 'Jesus of Nazareth' was executed.
Warning 12-07-07, 01:30 PM	-Do you even know what the Christan Bible is? A collection of letters, stories and such, coupled with the Tanakh. The original Christian Bible would simply be the first source that catalogued them all together. Sorry, but this is one of the 1st times I must disagree with you and tell you that you are wrong. Moses died 4 books into the bible, and funny enough, when he wrote it, he had used the term God(s)..not God. Then when the next author took over, the term was used God. Funny how we have the new..testament..then the old...we keep re-writing it to make it a little more believable each time. So I must say, you do not know what the bible is, you have read the politically modern bible, I have read the Hebrew version. I have been Muslim, I have been Christian, I have been Sikh. I have opened my mind and gave everyone the benefit of the doubt. And when I have found no salvation, I turn away from faith and move to logic. And logic has yet to fail me. Only one religion can be right, but they can all be wrong.
dethmetal 12-07-07, 01:35 PM	Why stat a divine being? Well, how about the fact that they are constantly getting knocked off? How about the fact that portfolios under new management every 30 years or so? That kind of stuff is why you stat them. Obviously, if they are constantly getting killed they must have hit points. And we all know that having hit points means that you can die if the hit points are in the "negative" range. Most gods in the fr setting that have been "slain" were not killed by someone coming up to them and hitting them until their hitpoints went into the negative range. And I’m only saying most to cover my ass in case there was some instance where it happened so i don't get a lot of replies being "OH but in this book on page so and so it said that mystra got hit with a dagger until death." And listing a gods portfolio's isn't really "Stat'ing" them, it's just listing the areas they have dominion over. When i said i don't see the reason to stat divine beings, I meant there's no need to assign game statistics to them. Do you give stats to an ant in your game? I'm betting probably not. Why? Because it's pointless, your characters could step on an ant with no effort at all. That's the same relationship mortals have to gods in my games, pc's are the ants. That's not saying there aren't ways gods can be overtaken or killed or overthrown or whatever you want to do to them, but any type of frontal assault, or physical engagement with a god is going to end with the death of the entire adventuring party foolhardy enough to attempt it.
dethmetal 12-07-07, 01:39 PM	And i don't mean to be a jerk, but i don't see what the bible discussion has to do with what AO's stats may or may not be, and if any should be assigned to him(which they shouldn't)
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 01:49 PM	Sorry, but this is one of the 1st times I must disagree with you and tell you that you are wrong. -That's fine, as I know I'm correct. Again, Jesus was a verifiable person, who was predated some 500 years by Hercules, whose documentation cannot be proven. Moses died 4 books into the bible, and funny enough, when he wrote it, he had used the term God(s)..not God. -Moses didn't die in the Bible (which is Christian). He died in the Tanakh. Furthermore, the term G-d is not used, period. In Judiasm, it is disrespectful to write the word, which is why you never see me actually writing it out. Funny how we have the new..testament..then the old...we keep re-writing it to make it a little more believable each time. -Sure, there's a whole bunch of different versions of the Bible, because as I said before, it's simply a collection of letters, coupled with the Tanakh. Whereas the Tanakh has stayed the same, the Bible can be modified by adding and subtracting, depending on the particular Christain denomination. So I must say, you do not know what the bible is, you have read the politically modern bible... -The fact that you mention a 'Hebrew Bible' makes me doubt your understanding. I have read the Hebrew version. -There is no such thing as the 'Hebrew Bible'. You fail. I have been Muslim, I have been Christian, I have been Sikh. -That's certainly a track record. That you so easily "switched" from one to another to another in the twenty-or-so years you've been alive makes me doubt your sincerity to any of them. And when I have found no salvation, I turn away from faith and move to logic. -Logic has it's failing as well. And, the existence and use of logic does not cancel out the possibility of religious truths. Only one religion can be right, but they can all be wrong. -That also applies to atheism, as well.
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 01:50 PM	And i don't mean to be a jerk, but i don't see what the bible discussion has to do with what AO's stats may or may not be, and if any should be assigned to him(which they shouldn't) -Ao's stats are in the Bible. That must be it.
dethmetal 12-07-07, 01:56 PM	I must have missed that psalm. my mistake. carry on in that case.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-07-07, 02:01 PM	Since when is this forum an appropriate venue for debating the veracity of real-world religions?
Warning 12-07-07, 02:01 PM	Documents mean nothing in terms of proof. Documents are just written words. And words are lies. And if you doubt my different faiths, then you doubt my state of reason. No where does it say in any holy book the amount of time it takes to find your faith, 10 mins or 10 years. I have read all that has been offered to me, I have gave glory to god that I have earned and he had not. God sends promises of doomed destruction to those who will not kneel. He can keep wanting praise, but he won't gain any from me for I have turned away. If God doesn't like the way I'm living, let him tell me, not you. How many people believe in God because they want to go to heaven? So they only give him praise for a reward, only become a good person for selfishness of want. You can keep your false beliefs LK, but when I want to seek and answer and gain knowledge, I won't seek it on my knees with my eyes closed, for they will be opened..looking..searching..not waiting.
Karsus the Mad 12-07-07, 02:05 PM	I must have missed that psalm. my mistake. carry on in that case. It's a secret message in Psalms 1.1. 1: Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. Beimnkunurhc Rearanged using the correct decoder ring, you get Uber Munchkin. You also get Dungeons and Dragons. Coincidence? hmmmmmmmm..... Since when is this forum an appropriate venue for debating the veracity of real-world religions? Never. I do believe it's also against the CoC. Whether one is a god-fearing mortal or not, tis wise to be a Wizo-fearing poster.... Documents mean nothing in terms of proof. Documents are just written words. And words are lies. You do realize everything you (or anyone) type is a documentation of words? I doubt you intended it, but you just called yourself and everyone else a liar. No reason to point it out other than the irony of wordplay made me grin :)
ORC_Sinister 12-07-07, 02:09 PM	getting back to the topic (and not real world religion) is a good idea. Sin
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 02:13 PM	Since when is this forum an appropriate venue for debating the veracity of real-world religions? -I just can't stand misinformation, Rino. You should know that. :) Documents mean nothing in terms of proof. Documents are just written words. And words are lies. -Not very logical. And if you doubt my different faiths, then you doubt my state of reason. No where does it say in any holy book the amount of time it takes to find your faith, 10 mins or 10 years. I have read all that has been offered to me, I have gave glory to god that I have earned and he had not. -You're further proving my point in doubting your sincerity. You should really stop while you're ahead. If God doesn't like the way I'm living, let him tell me, not you. -When did I say anything of the sort? How many people believe in God because they want to go to heaven? -In most religions, the belief in G-d (or some sort of divine entity) is not enough to go to Heaven (or some sort of positive divine realm)- it's simply the cornerstone. You can keep your false beliefs LK, but when I want to seek and answer and gain knowledge, I won't seek it on my knees with my eyes closed, for they will be opened..looking..searching..not waiting. -You do realize that some of the greatest scholars were religious folks of various religions, right? -You sound like a poorly undereducated "Nietzscheian", truthfully. -And, that's as much as I'm saying on the subject. If you want to contue, do it via IM or PM. Beimnkunurhc -Don't say that so loud. That also summons the Aboleth...:shifty:
Karsus the Mad 12-07-07, 02:22 PM	getting back to the topic (and not real world religion) is a good idea. Sin See?! I warned you all! Fear the Wizo! Sin...rather apt actually...yet more spooky coinky dinks...:shifty: -You do realize that some of the greatest scholars were religious folks of various religions, right? Like Alaundo actually. Scholar, prophet, devoted to Savras.
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 02:27 PM	Like Alaundo actually. Scholar, prophet, devoted to Savras. -See, in the actual world and the Realms. 2 for 2.
Warning 12-07-07, 02:30 PM	I did not say that the actual reason for believing God was to go to heaven, but that is todays society way of thinking. Do you think most people would rather sit in church on Sunday than watch a football game? Do you think most people would rather starve than to not just eat their food when they are hungry instead of praying? When I help someone, I don't do it because of God, not because I want to go to heaven and earn my reward. Because I truly want to help someone. And you say most scholars were religious? Funny how we would be 1500 years ahead in society if religion were not burning our greatest minds at the stake. 1 school master is more of use than a 100 priest. Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day, give a man religion and he will starve praying for one. Religion has caused more misery than any single idea in our history. Anyway, Rino is right, we are getting off topic, so anymore post or responds from me will be in PM. Btw LK, did you ever think that, it may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him? Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away And as for everyone else: The gods can either take away evil from the world and will not, or, being willing to do so, cannot; or they neither can nor will, or lastly, they are both able and willing. If they have the will to remove evil and cannot, then they are not omnipotent. If they can, but will not, than they are not benevolent. If they are neither able nor willing, then they are neither omnipotent nor benevolent. Lastly, if they are both able and willing to annihilate evil, how does it exist? Epicures, 300 B.C.
Karsus the Mad 12-07-07, 02:32 PM	-See, in the actual world and the Realms. 2 for 2. The Realms are the real world. Soon we will wake up in a comfy levitating bed in a city above the clouds...:crazy:
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 02:37 PM	The Realms are the real world. Soon we will wake up in a comfy levitating bed in a city above the clouds...:crazy: -That's nice...:cloud9: -Well have to make the most of this massivly lucid dream. No casting spells on Mystryl, no having our soul sundered, no dooming our empire...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-07-07, 02:37 PM	-I just can't stand misinformation, Rino. You should know that. :) I do. :) And I agree with you on many points (there is no "Hebrew Bible", for instance, unless it's a Bible that's simply been translated into Hebrew), but I think it's better to avoid the topic here, as interesting as it is.
Warning 12-07-07, 03:05 PM	Warning is right. And he is more powerful than AO. Warning is so fast he ran around the world and punched the back of his head.Warning counted to infinity twice. Warning can slam a revlolving door. When warning looks at the sun, the sun goes blind. Jesus walked on water, warning walked on jesus. Thank you for the facts Rino, but this is common knowelge.
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 03:12 PM	Warning is so fast he ran around the world and punched the back of his head.Warning counted to infinity twice. Warning can slam a revlolving door. When warning looks at the sun, the sun goes :rofl: -That's priceless. Those are good. :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-07-07, 04:28 PM	Everyone here knows I spell and write better than that though.;)
Stigger 12-07-07, 06:06 PM	Just priceless... :rofl: As to Warning's gods versus evil rant... certainly they could were they not countered by evil deities. The idea of balance between the two, and even the centerpoint of neutrality, is one long ingrained into D&D and Realms mythos. Essentially, it comes down to a doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction, so both sides engage in a quiet, small scale war, lest that MAD come to pass. Which of course is one of the major reasons 4e's plotline makes almost no sense in the grand scheme of the Realms...
BadCatMan 12-07-07, 07:01 PM	My apologies for the derailing. I was simply trying to elucidate the comparative existence of Jesus and Hercules, for the purposes of historical education. BTW, the Dark Ages were so named for the loss of Roman culture, at first. Now the term is defined as the lack of information we have about the period. Recent archaeological evidence is showing the period to actually be fairly civilised (as such things go), and culturally and technologically advanced. The Romans left a lot behind. Christianity at the time wasn't the all-powerful monolith it was in the Middle Ages, it was more a lot of missionaries co-opting local pagan faiths. The main reason we are technologically behind is because the Romans went away and all those fancy Alexandrian steam engines were forgotten about. And you can thank early human pattern recognition giving rise to religious-type thought for imagination and big ideas. And you might thank religion for the abolition of slavery and solidly promoting the concept of goodness and just being nice to one another. (I'm a scientist, an atheist, sorta Buddhist, and a Doctor Who fan.)
Sol_Odlanier 12-07-07, 07:42 PM	Am I the only one that imagine that kid with and actual hood over his head and foaming from his/her mouth as it types?
Stigger 12-08-07, 12:56 AM	Nah, I can't see him in a hood. Maybe a tinfoil pyramid perhaps, but a hood would probably be seen as somewhat too remniscent of religion for his liking... ;) Possibly foaming though, depending on his attitudes towards rinsing after brushing his teeth though. :D
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 10:30 AM	Possibly foaming though, depending on his attitudes towards rinsing after brushing his teeth though. :D -I don't rinse after brushing my teeth, and I don't foam.
Karsus the Mad 12-08-07, 03:17 PM	-I don't rinse after brushing my teeth, and I don't foam. You don't use toothpaste either.
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 03:25 PM	You don't use toothpaste either. -Ho, ho, ho! A funny one, eh? Why I outghta...If you weren't me, I'd give you a whoopin'.
Karsus the Mad 12-08-07, 03:40 PM	-Ho, ho, ho! A funny one, eh? Why I outghta...If you weren't me, I'd give you a whoopin'. That's a good thing I suppose. I can't imagine how you'd explain to your girlfriend why you were whipping me....
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 04:22 PM	That's a good thing I suppose. I can't imagine how you'd explain to your girlfriend why you were whipping me.... -Don't jump the gun, there. There's a difference between "whoopins", and "whippings".
Karsus the Mad 12-08-07, 04:26 PM	If you say so :love: Denial isn't good. Afterall, it'd be masturbation :D
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 04:33 PM	-I'm not exactly sure how to respond to that.
Sol_Odlanier 12-08-07, 04:47 PM	I do...EEEEEEEEEWwwwwwwwwwwww
Stigger 12-08-07, 05:18 PM	:blink: :rofl: I just love these boards sometimes... this is definitely one of those times... :D
Mifelhagen 12-08-07, 06:13 PM	Do you give stats to an ant in your game? I'm betting probably not. Why? Because it's pointless, your characters could step on an ant with no effort at all. That's the same relationship mortals have to gods in my games, pc's are the ants. Thats the problem: The pc's are not ants. When characters can become so powerful that they can challenge demon lords and hellish archdukes, they are not ants. The only one's who are ants are the lvl 1 npcs that will never level in DnD. Hence, gods' should have stats because eventual an ambitious group of PCs are going to want to kill that mean spirited god who is trying to convert the whole planet to his religion, and doing such a good job that the pcs need to jump in and kill him. And gods most certainly have stats when they fight each other - as happens often. overthrown or whatever you want to do to them, but any type of frontal assault, or physical engagement with a god is going to end with the death of the entire adventuring party foolhardy enough to attempt it. Yes, without the proper tools a god SHOULD pwn the crap out of pcs. however, there are tools and tactics that pcs can get their hands on that will level the playing field.
Sol_Odlanier 12-08-07, 07:11 PM	*screche head* You know you may feel I'm spupid for saying this but I think is boring fightin AO (witch btw KID it can't be done) or gods, i love playing low lv better. tink about it, you are in the bottom of the food chain no resouses no contacts, you are limited, you have to think on your feet, the first time I ever played D&D I has naked in a cell i use a rusty (-1 ATK and DMG)machete until a rolled a 1 and the ****ing thing broke. ten I use the body of a dead goblin for a while to find a Chaos beast" (all this alone as a lv 1 pal mind you) then I had to toss my "weapon" to the beast so I could run away while it ate it...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-08-07, 08:45 PM	And gods most certainly have stats when they fight each other - as happens often. The gods fight each other mainly through their followers--or at least, it's supposed to be that way in the FR.
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 08:54 PM	-Why would a player be playing a deity? That doesn't sound very fun...
Puritan13 12-09-07, 07:52 AM	-Why would a player be playing a deity? That doesn't sound very fun...You might be surprised. I ran a game where all the characters were deities back in 2e. Had one good, one neutral, and one evil deity in the campaign. They actually cooperated to create a world and thinking races. Then the politics started. Had both the good and evil deities trying to influence the neutral deity into supporting them. All in all, it was a pretty unique gaming experience. I'm convinced it only worked because I had the three right players for the roles involved.
Puritan13 12-09-07, 07:54 AM	The gods fight each other mainly through their followers--or at least, it's supposed to be that way in the FR.Not since the Time of Troubles. I actually think the upcomming RSE will put the "distant, unknowable gods" back into the realms.
Karsus the Mad 12-09-07, 10:01 AM	-I'm not exactly sure how to respond to that. I win. The gods fight each other mainly through their followers--or at least, it's supposed to be that way in the FR. Have you noticed how many supposed to's there are when it comes to deities? I think it's a bad omen. Give a man religion and he'll build a civilization, give a man atheism and he'll start killing everything. :confused:
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 10:26 AM	I win. -Since you win, I also win. It's a win-win situation for us Karsus'.
Karsus the Mad 12-09-07, 11:45 AM	-Since you win, I also win. It's a win-win situation for us Karsus'. One of many perks for the Karsi. We never lose. I bet we could even find the mythical Beholder Toe.
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 12:35 PM	One of many perks for the Karsi. We never lose. I bet we could even find the mythical Beholder Toe. -I bet our lost third, the Beholder Mage, might know!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-09-07, 06:08 PM	Have you noticed how many supposed to's there are when it comes to deities? Yes I have. I certainly have...
Karsus the Mad 12-09-07, 06:58 PM	Yes I have. I certainly have... Ah...my fairest love, dearest poster, most pure lady of hope..... Twas that which you should not see..... tis that which comes to pass... Ye are too innocent.....tho be our last hope....
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-09-07, 07:07 PM	I'm so flattered.:embarrass
Karsus the Mad 12-09-07, 07:11 PM	:) I have my spine cut open tomarrow. Pray for me please. I'm really affraid.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-09-07, 07:35 PM	:) I have my spine cut open tomarrow. Pray for me please. I'm really affraid. I hope your surgery works out well and you get better.:)
Blibbering_Humdinger 12-09-07, 08:48 PM	Give a man religion and he'll build a civilization, give a man atheism and he'll start killing everything. :D Give a man the gift of speech and he'll make himself sound like a biased idiot. That's a better saying, methinks... I'm pretty sure you were joking with your response, but for the record, I'm an atheist (and apart from having never killed anything larger than a persistant mosquito, I'm quite a bit more civilized than many people I know, some of whom are theists of one kind or another, so...). Kindly don't say things like that. (And it'd be equally nice if we didn't say stuff like that fish line, either.)
Blibbering_Humdinger 12-09-07, 08:58 PM	:) I have my spine cut open tomarrow. Pray for me please. I'm really affraid. I'll pray to my god, which is me, that you come through and get well in a hurry. Granted, the great god, which is me, can't do much to actually answer the prayer, but at least I'll be praying, yes? :P
Stigger 12-09-07, 09:52 PM	Not sure I'd want luck so much as a surgeon who knew what they were doing... but good luck anyway KtM. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 10:57 AM	Kindly don't say things like that. (And it'd be equally nice if we didn't say stuff like that fish line, either.) Agreed--it's better to respect everyone here regardless of what their beliefs might be (unless their beliefs truly are egregious, but I haven't seen that yet).:)
Mifelhagen 12-10-07, 01:08 PM	You know, according to that time of troubles trilogy, not only does Ao have a boss, but the universe was already there ruled by some demons. He didn't really create anything, just tricked the big baddies into a prison, banished the little ones, and set up shop. Also, I believe in The Prince of Lies (I think thats the title) Cyric was able to temporarily dim Ao's aura in a meeting of the gods. Quite frankly, Unless this stuff has been retconned out, this doesn't speak favorably for Ao's supposed omnipotents, imo.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 01:14 PM	AO does have a boss. That's me, remember?
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 02:25 PM	Also, I believe in The Prince of Lies (I think thats the title) Cyric was able to temporarily dim Ao's aura in a meeting of the gods. -Cyric was also insane, and to his own senses (which are incorrect, as per the definition of insane), he was an equal to Ao. Quite frankly, Unless this stuff has been retconned out, this doesn't speak favorably for Ao's supposed omnipotents, imo. -No, Ao isn't omnipotent, but he's damn sure the closest being in Realmspace that is.
Kenzuki 12-10-07, 04:45 PM	To sum up Lord Ao's power, please refer to this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCByWzl1K5w&feature=related
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 05:11 PM	To sum up Lord Ao's power, please refer to this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCByWzl1K5w&feature=related -I...don't get it. A bunch of Sprites from Mario, Sonic and Mario RPG, plus a reference to Dragon Ball Z.
Kenzuki 12-10-07, 06:22 PM	It means Lord Ao is like a DBZ character. :cool: Plus his power level is OVER NINE THHOUSSSSSSAAAAAAANNNDDD!
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 07:17 PM	-Oh...Kay.... -If Ao were a DBZ character, I think his power level would be much greater than only nine thousand. Nine thousand is relativley weak.
Puritan13 12-10-07, 08:43 PM	Agreed--it's better to respect everyone here regardless of what their beliefs might be (unless their beliefs truly are egregious, but I haven't seen that yet).:)ExtinctionBeta
Puritan13 12-10-07, 08:44 PM	-Oh...Kay.... -If Ao were a DBZ character, I think his power level would be much greater than only nine thousand. Nine thousand is relativley weak.dry, so very dry...
Kenzuki 12-10-07, 09:03 PM	-Oh...Kay.... -If Ao were a DBZ character, I think his power level would be much greater than only nine thousand. Nine thousand is relativley weak. Lord Ao only needs a power level of Nine Thousand to completely own the entire Faerunian Pantheon. Yes, he's that good.:D
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 09:24 PM	ExtinctionBeta -I think he's dead...:shifty: dry, so very dry... -Well, it's not like that was funny or anything.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 09:26 PM	-I think he's dead...:shifty: He is.
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 09:31 PM	-All of his incarnations.
Sol_Odlanier 12-10-07, 11:09 PM	-All of his incarnations. isn't Mr. Micellany the same dude?
MarkusTay63 12-11-07, 12:07 AM	So, are we going to blame every arrogant, belligerant poster here on Miscellany? :confused: That would make him a god, and those would be his Avatars. :eek: Maybe he's Cyric... :incog: And AO can go Super-Saiyan 40! :P
Stigger 12-11-07, 04:38 AM	Heh, no... don't think EB was/is Miscellany. Styles are way too different.
Kenzuki 12-11-07, 08:12 AM	So, are we going to blame every arrogant, belligerant poster here on Miscellany? :confused: That would make him a god, and those would be his Avatars. :eek: Maybe he's Cyric... :incog: And AO can go Super-Saiyan 40! :P That's not a chin under Lord AO's beard....it's a third fist!
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 09:07 AM	isn't Mr. Micellany the same dude? -No. For as much of a hassle Mr. Misc can be, he is a bright and insightful poster, for the most part. EB, in all his incarnations, for the most part, was not.
Stigger 12-11-07, 09:34 AM	EB had his moments in all fairness.
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 09:36 AM	-Moments of clarity, perhaps. ;)
Stigger 12-11-07, 09:38 AM	Indeed... with the (very) occassional hint of insight.
Lithrac_of_Souls 12-12-07, 09:51 AM	Hi there, first post on the FR boards, Allow me to thank you all for making me laugh as much as I did. That was a really entertaining thread. :D Besides, I couldn't help but notice that warning was the closest person to a Signer (from Planescape) I know. That's quite an achievement!
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 09:55 AM	Besides, I couldn't help but notice that warning was the closest person to a Signer (from Planescape) I know. That's quite an achievement! -He's probably more of a Dustman at heart, methinks. ;)
Stigger 12-12-07, 01:38 PM	Hmmm... I was thinking Athar. Oh, and hello and welcome. :)
Karsus the Mad 12-12-07, 07:38 PM	I'll pray to my god, which is me, that you come through and get well in a hurry. Granted, the great god, which is me, can't do much to actually answer the prayer, but at least I'll be praying, yes? :P I feel rather dumb actually. It was a simple surgery. Some bone cut away from a vertabrae. I left the next morning:embarrass I was so worked up over something so simple. I do however have this really cool stich in the middle of my back:eek: It even bled earlier when I bent over to pick up my boots:) I think my username should be changed to Karsus the Wuss.
Kenzuki 12-12-07, 07:53 PM	I always like to picture Lord Ao as looking like a giant, naked version of Mr. Clean reclining in a law chair working on his cosmic tan. Then when the "children" began to act up he takes off his sunglasses, sighs and grabs his belt.
Lithrac_of_Souls 12-13-07, 12:39 PM	Thank you, Stigger :)
Magadon 12-16-07, 02:19 AM	Ive always wondered who Ao was talking to at the end of waterdeep...I guess even his omnipotence has a boss
Kenzuki 12-16-07, 07:30 AM	Ao was speaking to Chuck Norris.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-16-07, 08:07 AM	That mekes we wonder.... Chuck Norris VS. Mr T. ....
Stigger 12-16-07, 09:46 AM	As has been established, Ao was speaking to me... unless you choose to believe that it may have been Rino, but that would be heresy and a horde of something very small, nasty, and very difficult to get rid of might descend upon you for such blasphemies.... :evillaugh
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 12:33 PM	-Hmm...Now I have to choose between Rino and Stigger? Damn... -Well, no offense Stigger, but I'm going to have to go with Rino, because, odds are, she smells better than you. :)
Stigger 12-16-07, 03:59 PM	*dumps a tin of rotting sardines on Rino's head* I wouldn't count on that one... :evillaugh
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 04:09 PM	-I didn't know you had it in ya, Stigger, being a Californian liberal and all(;))...:P
Stigger 12-16-07, 04:16 PM	Would have been dolphin-unsafe tuna, but its hard to come by in California... :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-16-07, 08:07 PM	-Hmm...Now I have to choose between Rino and Stigger? Damn... -Well, no offense Stigger, but I'm going to have to go with Rino, because, odds are, she smells better than you. :) Correct as usual!:D *dodges the sardines*
Stigger 12-17-07, 03:58 AM	*launches rotten sardines of seeking +10* :P :D
Karsus the Mad 12-17-07, 10:12 AM	*launches rotten sardines of seeking +10* :P :D *casts sardine reflection on Rino*
Stigger 12-17-07, 03:43 PM	*unlocks snack room* *casts Stinking Cloud on Rino's wardrobe*
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 04:26 PM	-Why do I hear the Benny Hill chase music coming on?
Stigger 12-17-07, 05:01 PM	Probably because I just cued it... :D
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 05:07 PM	-Ah, I see. Well, I'll open this door here, and give you a head start. She'll be coming any moment now, I'm sure. :: Opens Door ::
Stigger 12-17-07, 05:10 PM	Feh, I'm going to "accidentally" be running through the ladies lockers & showers... just wouldn't be right if I didn't. :D
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 05:22 PM	-Whoops. Wrong door. :embarrass :: Closes that door :: :: Opens another door :: :: Sees the locomotive headed straight for himself and Stigger :: :eek: :: Quickly slams that door shut in the nick of time :: -You know what, Stig. You choose the door. I'll just tell her which way you went, and adjust the volume and tempo of the song, when necessary. I'll watch out for Ao, as well.
Stigger 12-17-07, 05:28 PM	Feh, Ao just signed onto my payroll, exclusive 15 Millennia contract... well, not mine really, my wife's more specifically, but I get to control him... :evillaugh
Karsus the Mad 12-17-07, 09:01 PM	Feh, Ao just signed onto my payroll, exclusive 15 Millennia contract... well, not mine really, my wife's more specifically, but I get to control him... :evillaugh Insofar as you have him do precisely what she wants:embarrass
Stigger 12-18-07, 12:49 AM	Well, I wasn't going to mention that part... but yes, that's true...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-18-07, 10:57 AM	-Whoops. Wrong door. :embarrass :: Closes that door :: :: Opens another door :: :: Sees the locomotive headed straight for himself and Stigger :: :eek: :: Quickly slams that door shut in the nick of time :: -You know what, Stig. You choose the door. I'll just tell her which way you went, and adjust the volume and tempo of the song, when necessary. I'll watch out for Ao, as well. :rofl: By the way, this post reminds me of one of the opening scenes in the movie Yellow Submarine (what a great movie!).
Lord Karsus 12-18-07, 02:32 PM	:rofl: By the way, this post reminds me of one of the opening scenes in the movie Yellow Submarine (what a great movie!). :: Was watching Yellow Submarine at the time of that posting ::
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-18-07, 03:42 PM	:: Was watching Yellow Submarine at the time of that posting :: Well, that explains it... :rofl: I like the Blue Meanies.
Warning 12-18-07, 03:48 PM	DID YOU THINK ME DEFEATED?!?!
Lord Karsus 12-18-07, 03:56 PM	I like the Blue Meanies. -It's sad, but there's an entire generation of kids out there who don't know who the Beatles are. For Hanukkah, I went to my girlfriend's aunt/uncle's house. Her little cousins (9 and 7) both have iPods. When I was commenting to my girlfriend that I didn't even know what music was when I was that age, I took a look at what was on the seven-year-old's iPod. Mostly Queen and the Beatles. I was plesantly pleased. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-18-07, 04:10 PM	-It's sad, but there's an entire generation of kids out there who don't know who the Beatles are. For Hanukkah, I went to my girlfriend's aunt/uncle's house. Her little cousins (9 and 7) both have iPods. When I was commenting to my girlfriend that I didn't even know what music was when I was that age, I took a look at what was on the seven-year-old's iPod. Mostly Queen and the Beatles. I was plesantly pleased. :) That is impressive. :)
Stigger 12-18-07, 07:00 PM	Can't stand the Beatles... or much of anything from that era. Too much of it crammed down my throat during my youth on the streets of Berkeley for me to be even remotely objective about it. And no, I didn't think you were defeated Warning. That would require me to think of you as a credible threat to the might that is me. :P :D
Lord Karsus 12-18-07, 09:59 PM	And no, I didn't think you were defeated Warning. That would require me to think of you as a credible threat to the might that is me. :P :D -WizO_the_Hutt defeated him, though. ;)
Stigger 12-19-07, 01:57 AM	Pwned him more like it... ;)
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-19-07, 02:31 AM	Well I missed the kid, he's funny (as in a lil chiwawa trying to be tuff funny)
Warning 12-19-07, 12:29 PM	Wizo the hutt who? Um? Maybe I had sh*t to do? So it seems if I don't post here everyday, autmotically something happened to me...rofl. Good times good times..kids these days. I have a life+1
Lord Karsus 12-19-07, 01:47 PM	-WizO_the_Hutt said, "You shall not speak!", and everything you said there went bye-bye. All traces of it.
Karsus the Mad 12-19-07, 02:51 PM	Wizo the hutt who? Um? Maybe I had sh*t to do? So it seems if I don't post here everyday, autmotically something happened to me...rofl. Good times good times..kids these days. I have a life+1 Ahhhhhhh....you're posting in response to silliness posted by other silly people. That by definition means you have no life. Just like the rest of us;)
Stigger 12-19-07, 06:53 PM	Wise words Mad One...
Karsus the Mad 12-19-07, 06:59 PM	Wise words Mad One... Wisdom is gained from Experience. Experience is gained by Living. Living often leads to Insanity. Insanity is a portal to Wisdom..... The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round...the wheels on the bus go round and round...all the live long day... Really though, I'm sure there was a point to my post... I'll be damned if I know it tho'...I try not to tell myself things I shouldn't know. And if I know something I shouldn't know, I try to prevent myself from finding out...No reason to get myself in trouble by letting myself find something out that I shouldn't know, even if I have permission from myself, which I wouldn't know, unless I told myself, which I shouldn't have, thus I'm back to square one...which is... I'm Wise:P
Stigger 12-19-07, 07:05 PM	Oftentimes its easier to just have a ice cream sundae instead of pondering such things I find...
Lord Karsus 12-19-07, 11:58 PM	:shifty: :looloo:
Stigger 12-20-07, 01:44 AM	Lots of love to you too... :P
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-20-07, 11:25 AM	Wisdom is gained from Experience. Experience is gained by Living. Living often leads to Insanity. Insanity is a portal to Wisdom..... The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round...the wheels on the bus go round and round...all the live long day... Really though, I'm sure there was a point to my post... I'll be damned if I know it tho'...I try not to tell myself things I shouldn't know. And if I know something I shouldn't know, I try to prevent myself from finding out...No reason to get myself in trouble by letting myself find something out that I shouldn't know, even if I have permission from myself, which I wouldn't know, unless I told myself, which I shouldn't have, thus I'm back to square one...which is... I'm Wise:P I started to read this but I stoped when "pleuro-celebral(?)" juice started droolin out of my ears...
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 03:25 PM	I started to read this but I stoped when "pleuro-celebral(?)" juice started droolin out of my ears... -Yeah, you need to ward yourself with special magics before listening to some of KtMs speeches.
Suin Bahhar 12-20-07, 03:33 PM	But its all true!
Karsus the Mad 12-20-07, 09:30 PM	-Yeah, you need to ward yourself with special magics before listening to some of KtMs speeches. Traitor! I am the genius that devised humanity to godhood! I was truly the first mortal to become a god, bypassing Ao himself!..... Besides, I have been right in all I say.....have I not? Hmmm... But its all true! It is true. LK simply won't aknowledge it....so sad.... One third of the Karsi has sadly succumbed to the Brass Ball plague...
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 09:54 PM	It is true. LK simply won't aknowledge it....so sad.... One third of the Karsi has sadly succumbed to the Brass Ball plague... -I didn't say it wasn't true. I just said that you need to ward yourself before listening to some of your speeches, sometimes, or your brains begin leaking out of yoir ears. It's because you have such a great talent for giving speeches, that's all.
Karsus the Mad 12-21-07, 03:41 AM	-I didn't say it wasn't true. I just said that you need to ward yourself before listening to some of your speeches, sometimes, or your brains begin leaking out of yoir ears. It's because you have such a great talent for giving speeches, that's all. Oh:P That's also true:embarrass
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 03:49 AM	Oh:P That's also true:embarrass -Yup. ;)
Karsus the Mad 12-21-07, 03:56 AM	Scrambled brains does a zombie good. *wanders back to comfy bed and snoozy land*
Warning 12-24-07, 07:54 PM	Well I win. I came, I saw, I curbed stomped AO's face. Anyone else want a taste? Any of the 4 billion Karsus named members on this forum want some spanks? If anyone needs details to as of how, feel free to PM.
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 01:57 AM	-EB, no one really cares. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-25-07, 01:19 PM	-EB, no one really cares. ;) Quoted for truth!
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 03:14 PM	-We gave you our opinions, and you metaphorically spit in the wind. We don't want to hear what the spit splashing against your face feels like.
Karsus the Mad 12-25-07, 07:21 PM	-We gave you our opinions, and you metaphorically spit in the wind. We don't want to hear what the spit splashing against your face feels like. Yeah....smells like troll poop...ya know, the goopy greyish brown glops that adventureres step in...
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 07:51 PM	Yeah....smells like troll poop...ya know, the goopy greyish brown glops that adventureres step in... -3e trolls, or 4e trolls? I don't like the new look of the 4e trolls. They're juicing, or something. They're friggin' hug. I liked the 3e (and to a lesser degree, the 2e) trolls, that were somewhat skinny, but still hit you like a ton of bricks. -Heh, I remember in a campaign I was played in a few years ago, I was a Cleric of Torm traveling with a Paladin of Torm. A troll attacked us, and knocked me out for like 3 rounds. It grabbed the other character and began trying to choke him and drown him in a river at the same time. When I woke up, I cast Enlarge on myself (Strength Domain power), ran over, rolled lnatural 20, and lifted the Troll, still grasping my companion, over my head, and tossed 'em both onto land.
Karsus the Mad 12-26-07, 12:00 AM	-3e trolls, or 4e trolls? I don't like the new look of the 4e trolls. They're juicing, or something. They're friggin' hug. I liked the 3e (and to a lesser degree, the 2e) trolls, that were somewhat skinny, but still hit you like a ton of bricks. Definately 3e trolls. I'm not even sure the 4e trolls have natural environs, let alone the ability to digest edible substances. -Heh, I remember in a campaign I was played in a few years ago, I was a Cleric of Torm traveling with a Paladin of Torm. A troll attacked us, and knocked me out for like 3 rounds. It grabbed the other character and began trying to choke him and drown him in a river at the same time. When I woke up, I cast Enlarge on myself (Strength Domain power), ran over, rolled lnatural 20, and lifted the Troll, still grasping my companion, over my head, and tossed 'em both onto land. :bored: An attempt for your cleric to uhhh...make up for something?
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 12:48 AM	:bored: An attempt for your cleric to uhhh...make up for something? -Well, he was 54...:shifty:
Karsus the Mad 12-26-07, 01:44 AM	-Well, he was 54...:shifty: Ah...well, then the engrosio spell was appropriate I suppose.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 01:48 AM	Ah...well, then the engrosio spell was appropriate I suppose. -Well, he was wearing full platemail, so no one got hurt.
Warning 12-29-07, 05:51 PM	Omfg LK, I just came back and read 3 things you posted...and you've broke you're promise to me. Sigh, guess it doesn't matter to me anymore, but it's principle that I can't trust anyone on this forum anymore.
Stigger 12-29-07, 08:22 PM	Sure you can... but do recall this is the guy who broke an entire society with a single spell. Not sure how much I'd trust someone who'd do that to begin with. ;) :P :D
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 07:33 AM	Sure you can... but do recall this is the guy who broke an entire society with a single spell. Not sure how much I'd trust someone who'd do that to begin with. ;) :P :D -Not on purpose, mind you. If Mystryl hadn't ended her existence, it's likely that everything would have been fine, more or less.
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 07:33 AM	Omfg LK, I just came back and read 3 things you posted...and you've broke you're promise to me. Sigh, guess it doesn't matter to me anymore, but it's principle that I can't trust anyone on this forum anymore. -Yes, you keep on walking around with that chip on your shoulders.
Elbereth_Silverleaf 12-30-07, 02:51 PM	(I completely shudder at the thought of the misconceived "ghost in the machine" concept of AO) If AO were to step foot on Toril, my character would have to give it/him/her a double-bit*hslap, then sue him/her/it for malpractice.......
Stigger 12-30-07, 06:27 PM	-Not on purpose, mind you. If Mystryl hadn't ended her existence, it's likely that everything would have been fine, more or less. Sure... you keep telling yourself that squishy. :P ;) :D
Suin Bahhar 12-30-07, 06:59 PM	So what are typical salient abilities for overdieties?
Karsus the Mad 12-30-07, 08:09 PM	So what are typical salient abilities for overdieties? Create/destroy deities at will. Uber Alter-Reality. Immunity to all forms of attack including, but not limited to, a concerted attack of all divine entities in existence. The ability to exist in a time/space outside of time/space. Have really cool clothing.
Suin Bahhar 12-30-07, 08:26 PM	*holds hands against the blinding light* My eyes! The blinding truth! AO happens to be a pretty swell guy otherwise he'd shatter all bad leather armors from fearuns existance.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 12:10 AM	Sure... you keep telling yourself that squishy. :P ;) :D -Yeah, yeah, yeah. Think about it like this, though. If *I* were the deity of magic, people wouldn't complain about Mystra. With no one complaining about Mystra, half of the changes that are going to be made to the Realms would not happen. So...
Stigger 12-31-07, 01:50 AM	No, they'd be complaining about Karsus and how he must be stopped...
Karsus the Mad 12-31-07, 01:59 AM	Nope. There wouldn't be anything about Karsus written other than *god of magic*. It'd be defamation of character otherwise.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 02:11 AM	-Exactly. We're very private.
Stigger 12-31-07, 02:17 AM	As if people actually needed a reason to hate something... if it wasn't you or Mystra, it would be some other NPC or other.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 02:18 AM	As if people actually needed a reason to hate something... if it wasn't you or Mystra, it would be some other NPC or other. -A whole bunch of NPCs wouldn't have their notoriety if it weren't for Mystra. The domino effect. Eliminate Mystra, and allow Karsus to reign supreme, and the Realms will be spared!
Stigger 12-31-07, 02:19 AM	Right... you go right on believing that. ;) :P :D
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 02:20 AM	-Stigger, search your feelings. You know it to be true...:emp:
Stigger 12-31-07, 02:22 AM	I did, and I still know that the setting would have been nuked Mystra or no Mystra. :P
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 11:31 AM	-You can still PM me. I'm the Don Corleone of the FR Boards. I listen, respond and hear out everybody.
WizO_Crosis 12-31-07, 12:27 PM	Just as a reminder, please remember to keep all forum posts on-topic. :) That said, all personal messages should be exchanged using our PM system. Thanks. :w:
Karsus the Mad 12-31-07, 12:32 PM	Hey...ummm...where'd my reply to Stigger go:confused:
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 12:35 PM	Hey...ummm...where'd my reply to Stigger go:confused: -The Void. -It was probably erased by Crosis for excessive off-topicyness. I guess we should gather up what's left of this thread, and see if there's anything actually meaty left. I doubt it, but...
Karsus the Mad 12-31-07, 12:40 PM	But it was on topic. I didn't have anything to do with your cat fight with Warning. Well, no matter. I'll just rereply to Stigger. I did, and I still know that the setting would have been nuked Mystra or no Mystra. Prolly. But would it be a cobalt bomb or little boy bomb? Ànd to show that I'm on topic.... Cobalt=destroys all life. I'm using it to mean "massive and drastic changes in the setting that potentially destroys it." Little boy=tiny nuke. I'm using it to mean "bad changes, but the setting as a whole isn't destroyed.".
Stigger 12-31-07, 01:20 PM	I'd go with Cobalt myself... it's inevitable.
Warning 12-31-07, 02:14 PM	so um back to AO. Paul Kemp is dumb because no matter what AO will stop Shar since according to everyone he can do whatever he sees fit. And I'm guessing since he stoped the time for troubles he would do the same for this? Where's the logic in this plot. And once again, if the world is "joined into two", wouldn't other authors imply their characters into this delima. I'm pretty sure since Elminster resides in the same gerneral area he won't just be like "Not my author, so no need for me to get invloved and just let the world die off". Man, I want to see Volmuxx or whatever his name is kick Elminster's ass.
Rauric 12-31-07, 02:21 PM	Heeey ya just insulted an author on the boards. I am sure that will go well for ya. Stop feeding the troll guys. Please?;)
Warning 12-31-07, 03:20 PM	Heeey ya just insulted an author on the boards. I am sure that will go well for ya. Stop feeding the troll guys. Please?;) This isn't the candlekeep kid. Everytime you post, you're never on topic, just bashing someone or something. Anyway, yeah, shar is stupid, it's going prefect for me. And AO will just shut her down according to the previous postings on this topic.
dethmetal 12-31-07, 04:00 PM	so um back to AO. Paul Kemp is dumb because no matter what AO will stop Shar since according to everyone he can do whatever he sees fit. And I'm guessing since he stoped the time for troubles he would do the same for this? Where's the logic in this plot. And once again, if the world is "joined into two", wouldn't other authors imply their characters into this delima. I'm pretty sure since Elminster resides in the same gerneral area he won't just be like "Not my author, so no need for me to get invloved and just let the world die off". Man, I want to see Volmuxx or whatever his name is kick Elminster's ass. Ok, Why is Paul Kemp dumb, that sentance didn't make much sense to me. AO isn't there to stop anyone from doing anything, until they do something outside of thier portfolio. Two examples: Shar, decides she really likes the weave and just takes it from mystra, Then just up and grabs the tablecloth of magic and yanks it off the table (The prime plane). At this point AO steps in and says "Hey Magic isn't your domain, you can't do that. Time out for Shar." Second Example: So lets say the "worlds joined in two" or whatever, i'm assuming it's somethign to do with the shadow and prime planes merging maybe? Why would AO stop that? Shar is the goddess of darkness all she's doing is increaseing the strength of her domain. AO didn't stop the time of troubles either he caused it.... in a nutshell the ToT went like this "gods A, and B sneak into AO's room and try to mess with his notebooks. AO gets pissy and kicks all the goddling kids outta his house and out onto the yard (Toril). Tells em to not come back for two weeks, then goes and has himself some private time in a bubble bath." Maybe it would be better if you dind't think of AO as a god, but more as a lazy security gaurd. AO only ever gets off his ass and out of his heated little guard booth, when the alarms go off. The rest of the time he's to busy reading the sports section of the paper to monitor what's exactly happening. As long as none of the FR deities trip the alarm he c ould care less. But if they do trip the alarm then woe to the person that made AO spill his coffee while standing up! And who's to say that other epic characters won't get involved in the big RSE that is comming? Thier books just haven't been writen yet.
Warning 12-31-07, 04:17 PM	Wow, way to put my ass in my place. Heh. Um, what about when AO stoped the time of troubles? Shars intentions are to kill everyone including herself. So you're telling me he would help magic exist again, but he could care less about life as a whole? Also other characters would not get invloved to the extent of interaction with other authors characters. Never will cale meet Drizzt, or Sazz Tam meet Elminster. The only one who can "save the world forever" is the hero of that book in specific. I love on the back of every novel it's "this will change frauen forever". They may notice the enviorments of other characters actions, but never the character itself. And if you say it just hasn't been written yet, don't hold your breath buddy.
Karsus the Mad 12-31-07, 10:29 PM	I'd go with Cobalt myself... it's inevitable. Cobalts are my fav to. I'd love to wipe out all life on earth one day. It's the drive that keeps me going.....that and large amounts of beer, but that's besides the point.
Alkasyn 12-31-07, 11:14 PM	Ok, Why is Paul Kemp dumb, that sentance didn't make much sense to me. AO isn't there to stop anyone from doing anything, until they do something outside of thier portfolio. Two examples: Shar, decides she really likes the weave and just takes it from mystra, Then just up and grabs the tablecloth of magic and yanks it off the table (The prime plane). At this point AO steps in and says "Hey Magic isn't your domain, you can't do that. Time out for Shar." Second Example: So lets say the "worlds joined in two" or whatever, i'm assuming it's somethign to do with the shadow and prime planes merging maybe? Why would AO stop that? Shar is the goddess of darkness all she's doing is increaseing the strength of her domain. AO didn't stop the time of troubles either he caused it.... in a nutshell the ToT went like this "gods A, and B sneak into AO's room and try to mess with his notebooks. AO gets pissy and kicks all the goddling kids outta his house and out onto the yard (Toril). Tells em to not come back for two weeks, then goes and has himself some private time in a bubble bath." Maybe it would be better if you dind't think of AO as a god, but more as a lazy security gaurd. AO only ever gets off his ass and out of his heated little guard booth, when the alarms go off. The rest of the time he's to busy reading the sports section of the paper to monitor what's exactly happening. As long as none of the FR deities trip the alarm he c ould care less. But if they do trip the alarm then woe to the person that made AO spill his coffee while standing up! And who's to say that other epic characters won't get involved in the big RSE that is comming? Thier books just haven't been writen yet. I think of Ao as someone more than that. He is the overgod, one who has greater power than any of the gods, and all of them combined. He doesn't interfere if he's not needed, because that's his job. Just like a forum moderator, Ao only watches and waits, lurking in the darkness and waiting for a time to act. Ao does care for the Realms and their Gods, but he won't interfere exactly because of that. Only in critical cases, when the balance is tipped, does he step in. In most of the cases, he lets the problem resolve itself. I guess I see him much like the christian God, who doesn't meddle in the affairs of man, but Ao for me is a brighter figure - it's visible he cares for the Realms, as proved by the Time of Troubles.
Rauric 12-31-07, 11:26 PM	This isn't the candlekeep kid. Everytime you post, you're never on topic, just bashing someone or something. Anyway, yeah, shar is stupid, it's going prefect for me. And AO will just shut her down according to the previous postings on this topic. You say I am bashing someone? I am not the one who insulted an author on these forums. I was just telling you that will probably just get you into trouble in the long run. People need to behave a little better online is all. Or apologize when they goof off. deth, did you really think anything he says is supposed to make any sense? Have you read this whole thread? ;)
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-01-08, 01:39 AM	I love that kid He's So....Random...like I said once he's like a little chiwawa :D
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-01-08, 08:09 PM	Ao should be beyond stats, or at least keep everyone guessing like the Lady of Pain. Ao is essentially the deity of deities. Even the Faerunian gods are powerless before him. This was demonstrated ably by Ao's humbling of the gods before, during and after the Time of Troubles. Otherwise, Ao doesn't concern himself much or at all with mortal or divine affairs. If Ao must have stats, it should be a single numerical variable. DvR (divine rank) 24 or 24+.
XHereticX 01-01-08, 10:24 PM	Well, as I recall, Dicefreaks put him at DvR 24. I think they gave him stats too but I can't get the link since they shut their forum down.
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 10:50 PM	Well, as I recall, Dicefreaks put him at DvR 24. I think they gave him stats too but I can't get the link since they shut their forum down. -None of that matters, anyway. When the established limit is 20, and when we don't know his actual capabilities, who is to say that he's a 24, a 34, or a 187234273098409850937537582348 (add commas where necessary)?
MarkusTay63 01-02-08, 12:11 AM	Cobalts are my fav to. I'd love to wipe out all life on earth one day. It's the drive that keeps me going.....that and large amounts of beer, but that's besides the point.Just swing by CERN an pick yourself up some Antimatter - that ought to do the trick. ;) But just make sure you pick up some beer on the way - you'll want to be pretty drunk when the fireworks go off. :D
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 02:52 AM	Well, as I recall, Dicefreaks put him at DvR 24. I think they gave him stats too but I can't get the link since they shut their forum down. It was more of a thought exercise and experiment in design really. Beings/entities like Ao shouldn't really have stats. -None of that matters, anyway. When the established limit is 20, and when we don't know his actual capabilities, who is to say that he's a 24, a 34, or a 187234273098409850937537582348 (add commas where necessary)? No, it matters in the context in which it is written in and the cosmology. In this case, 24 out of a possible 30 DvRs. We tentatively slotted the Lady of Pain at DvR 29 (concept of multiversal balance) and the Overlord of Hell (representing the entirety of the alignment of Lawful Evil), the true form of Asmodeus, at DvR 27.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 09:17 AM	No, it matters in the context in which it is written in and the cosmology. In this case, 24 out of a possible 30 DvRs. We tentatively slotted the Lady of Pain at DvR 29 (concept of multiversal balance) and the Overlord of Hell (representing the entirety of the alignment of Lawful Evil), the true form of Asmodeus, at DvR 27. -Where do you get context from, when we don't even know what Ao is capable of doing, nor do we know, for that matter, what the Lady of Pain, and or Asmodeus are truly capable of?
Stigger 01-02-08, 09:21 AM	Can't fathom it myself LK... he's > the rhetorical you, that's all we need to know in the context of this discussion.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 09:34 AM	Can't fathom it myself LK... he's > the rhetorical you, that's all we need to know in the context of this discussion. -Ah, I see.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 09:39 AM	-Where do you get context from, when we don't even know what Ao is capable of doing, nor do we know, for that matter, what the Lady of Pain, and or Asmodeus are truly capable of? Where does the thought exercise and experiment in design escape you? And it had much to do with the cosmology at hand, namely the DF cosmology, where epic and divine were more seamlessly integrated. The trinity of the Overlord (LE), Supreme Virtue (LG) and Architect (LN) came into design first, they didn't have stats merely DvR 27. As the cosmology was already somewhat fleshed out, we worked out where everything else fit. Given what the Lady could do in Planescape and what she represented, we slotted in appropriate universal cosmic portfolios to go with the numerical. The trinity are all DvR 27 because of their providence over the totality of an alignment while Ao is DvR 24 because he is overdeity of Realmspace. We actually detailed it quite in depth. I can't fish it out for you because it hasn't been reposted yet and the site is experiencing technical difficulties. Can't fathom it myself LK... he's > the rhetorical you, that's all we need to know in the context of this discussion. Wow, that's grossly simpleminded and wrong.
Stigger 01-02-08, 09:55 AM	Um... you do realize that this discussion was centered around the idea of a PC finding and killing Ao, right? Beyond that, I disagree that Asmodeus would have a DvR that high. ;)
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 09:58 AM	Beyond that, I disagree that Asmodeus would have a DvR that high. ;) -4e is (as I hear it) making Asmodeus a greater deity, meaning his Divine Rank is going to be in the 15-20 range, in 3e terms, if 4e does away with that system.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 10:17 AM	Um... you do realize that this discussion was centered around the idea of a PC finding and killing Ao, right? And you do realise it's evolved into something more than that, right? Beyond that, I disagree that Asmodeus would have a DvR that high. ;) No, you're mistaken. That isn't Asmo, it's the Overlord of Hell. Asmo is the avatar, which I explicitly stated in an earlier post. -4e is (as I hear it) making Asmodeus a greater deity, meaning his Divine Rank is going to be in the 15-20 range, in 3e terms, if 4e does away with that system. That's actually not bad news. But they shouldn't artificially conflate the score just because.
XHereticX 01-02-08, 10:20 AM	Oh, are you guys still working on Horrors? I enjoyed TGoH very much (far better than anything woTC has done). Asmodeus as a Greater Deity makes fell feel very good on the inside:)
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 10:21 AM	That's actually not bad news. -I don't mind him being extremely powerful. Obviously, he is Asmodeus, he should be. I just don't like the trend of saying, "Well, such and such is a powerful Outsider, on par with deities, so we might as well make such and such a deity him/herself."
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 10:23 AM	Yep, pretty much. Still working on ALFoH (A Light From on High, detailing the celestial realms - Celestia, Elysium, etc) as well. Thanks for the praise, mate! :D. Release should be a long ways yet, considering at the pace our designers work, the next installment would be out by 3010 (long running joke). Asmodeus was a beast, perhaps too powerful. -I don't mind him being extremely powerful. Obviously, he is Asmodeus, he should be. I just don't like the trend of saying, "Well, such and such is a powerful Outsider, on par with deities, so we might as well make such and such a deity him/herself." You make a good point, but one has to also take into the cosmology and mythology of the setting and the fact that the Lords of the Nine supposedly rule over an entire layer.
XHereticX 01-02-08, 10:29 AM	-I don't mind him being extremely powerful. Obviously, he is Asmodeus, he should be. I just don't like the trend of saying, "Well, such and such is a powerful Outsider, on par with deities, so we might as well make such and such a deity him/herself." Which is why the DF idea of a Cosmic Entities template that rivaled the power of the gods but did not mimic it made so much sense to me.
dethmetal 01-02-08, 12:24 PM	Wow, way to put my ass in my place. Heh. Um, what about when AO stoped the time of troubles? Shars intentions are to kill everyone including herself. So you're telling me he would help magic exist again, but he could care less about life as a whole? Also other characters would not get invloved to the extent of interaction with other authors characters. Never will cale meet Drizzt, or Sazz Tam meet Elminster. The only one who can "save the world forever" is the hero of that book in specific. I love on the back of every novel it's "this will change frauen forever". They may notice the enviorments of other characters actions, but never the character itself. And if you say it just hasn't been written yet, don't hold your breath buddy. maybe i did go a little over the top, but eh what can i say it was a high stress day. And i don't think of it so much as him stopping the time of troubles as it was just him unlocking the front door to the celestial realms again. Atleast in my understanding of the situation. and i don't know how to do quotes of multiple posts, but whomever said that AO is akin to a forum moderator, that was a much better anology, and more of the lines of what i was trying to get across.
MarkusTay63 01-02-08, 02:20 PM	-I don't mind him being extremely powerful. Obviously, he is Asmodeus, he should be. I just don't like the trend of saying, "Well, such and such is a powerful Outsider, on par with deities, so we might as well make such and such a deity him/herself."He really should of been all along, though. After all, he was the master of his own plane, which is quite a bit larger then most god's domains. Also, 2e's Field Guide to Hell claimed that Ahriman became Asmodeus, and Ahriman was one of the first creatures to have formed in the universe, and along with Jazirian created the Great Wheel itself. Now, some of that has been ret-conned, but Asmodeus is still one of the Elder Powers of the Universe, predating almosty all other gods.
Karsus the Mad 01-02-08, 02:42 PM	Where does the thought exercise and experiment in design escape you? Randomly asigning numbers to characters is not a thought excercise. Arbitrarily placing made up abilities is not a design experiment. It is fun tho':D
Warning 01-02-08, 02:49 PM	Omg, can someone answer me please. If Shars purpose is to destroy everyone including herself, would AO not stop that? If your answer is yes, why is anyone worrying in the twilight war? If I were Cale, I would just laugh at Rivalen with his Dieties contridicting views. Also, even if AO wouldn't do anything, I assume 1 of the other billion dieties would jump in to stop her?
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 03:10 PM	What if the Lady of Pain is an aspect of AO and or vice-versa. just putting that out there....
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 03:21 PM	maybe because CALE DOESN'T KNOW WHO AO IS!or maybe Ao is using Cale and has everything planned... and since Shar is a deity of secrets not every god knows.... What do i know? :P
MarkusTay63 01-02-08, 03:41 PM	Ody - be careful, even I wouldn't go so far as to mispell THAT word to get it by the sensors. :rolleyes: AO's one purpose is to make sure the gods are performing their duties according to their portfolios. Shar is supposed to want to destroy everything, so in AO's eyes she is NOT violating her portfolio and will therefore do NOTHING (even if it means his own destruction). AO is NOT a good guy, he is the ultimate in Lawful Neutral, and will stand idly by while billions perish, as long as the laws are being obeyed
Warning 01-02-08, 03:46 PM	maybe because CALE DOESN'T KNOW WHO THE FUKK AO IS!or maybe Ao is using Cale and has everything planned... and since Shar is a deity of secrets not every god knows.... What do i know? :P IF YOU READ THE SHADOWBRED YOU WOULD SEE THAT MASK CLEARLY SAYS "AO" OUT LOUD IN FRONT OF HIM.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 04:03 PM	That does, mean that he know who it is.
Warning 01-02-08, 04:24 PM	That does, mean that he know who it is. DIE
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 04:53 PM	I will SO put that in my sign. :D
Stigger 01-02-08, 05:19 PM	And you do realise it's evolved into something more than that, right? Could be, but as it doesn't really interest me, as I think its an incredibly stupid idea to give stats to deities in the first place, I can't really say I much care. No, you're mistaken. That isn't Asmo, it's the Overlord of Hell. Asmo is the avatar, which I explicitly stated in an earlier post. See, the interesting thing there is that if you look at what I said, I was stating an opinion, not some objective statement of fact, so, I can't really be mistaken. I don't like the concept of uber-powerful archdevils and archdemons being more powerful than gods. That the rules says they are or aren't is immaterial to me and my opinion. ;)
Alkasyn 01-02-08, 06:17 PM	AO is NOT a good guy, he is the ultimate in Lawful Neutral, and will stand idly by while billions perish, as long as the laws are being obeyed Yea, that's how I see him too.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 08:22 PM	Randomly asigning numbers to characters is not a thought excercise. Arbitrarily placing made up abilities is not a design experiment. It is fun tho':D And did the other parts of my post (namely the explanations as to why) escape you? What if the Lady of Pain is an aspect of AO and or vice-versa. just putting that out there.... No, given the histories of each and differences in personality, this is not likely. And Mask could say that he "knows Ao." But, hey, it's Mask. And quite possibly he doesn't know what he's talking about. Could be, but as it doesn't really interest me, as I think its an incredibly stupid idea to give stats to deities in the first place, I can't really say I much care. That's your prerogative. I guess that the divine stats in Faiths and Pantheons and Deities and Demigods are stupid to you. See, the interesting thing there is that if you look at what I said, I was stating an opinion, not some objective statement of fact, so, I can't really be mistaken. I don't like the concept of uber-powerful archdevils and archdemons being more powerful than gods. That the rules says they are or aren't is immaterial to me and my opinion. ;) Yeah, but I was making a joke. I guess I should broken out the emoticons; deadpan doesn't work well on forum boards.
Stigger 01-03-08, 12:54 AM	True, I did find the divine stats in F&P very stupid. Would have been space much better dedicated to more lore, rather than stats that should be left to individual DM's at best. And no, deadpan doesn't work too well on forum boards. :)
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 12:58 AM	That does, mean that he know who it is. DIE :rolleyes:
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 03:52 AM	True, I did find the divine stats in F&P very stupid. Would have been space much better dedicated to more lore, rather than stats that should be left to individual DM's at best. I don't mind the stats, it gives and sets a nice benchmark and separates the mortal from the divine. What the designers didn't take into account was the disparity between divine mechanics and epic. They really should have integrated epic rules from the get go. While flavor would be great for the reader, mechanics take up more space and so books can be filled quicker.
Stigger 01-03-08, 04:32 AM	To each their own. I'd have much preferred something more along the lines of F&A/P&P/DD from 2e.
Karsus the Mad 01-03-08, 08:29 AM	And did the other parts of my post (namely the explanations as to why) escape you? Yeah, I think it did escape me. You see, it was really difficult to focus with a blood alc level bordering on 80 proof:)
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 11:54 AM	Yeah, I think it did escape me. You see, it was really difficult to focus with a blood alc level bordering on 80 proof:) -Don't worry, I was completely sober, and...
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 05:41 PM	And you still didn't get it, even when I explained myself...shame.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 06:20 PM	And you still didn't get it, even when I explained myself...shame. -The equation doesn't work from the beginning because you are limiting yourself (or whoever did it), to only a maximum DvR of 30. It's a fairly arbitrary number. I could generically assign the paragons of the alignments (the same one you alluded to before) at a maximum of 40, bumping Ao up in the process as well.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-03-08, 06:23 PM	I never said that it had to work, the label of thought exercise and experiment in design meant that it wasn't be taken at face value. But it gave pretty good guidelines for the intent. Given what a DvR 20 being can achieve and what it is meant to represent, 40 is artificially inflated to too high an arbitrary numerical. The limitation to DvR 30 took into account the cosmology and the entities in it, we didn't just randomly assign numbers.
Elsenrail 01-03-08, 06:50 PM	He's not so powerful after all. Bane *resisted* longer than others. It's intriguing at least. Moreover, his power is limited/diminished outside Realmspace. He's just a powerful entity. Just like the Lady of Pain. And he, and any other entity similar to him, can be overpowered by the PCs. They just need to find "the key". Vecna found how to enter Sigil, for instance. The multiverse is full of possibilities. Personally, I don't like the whole overgod concept (we know of Ao, but what about other material worlds?), so I would be glad if WotC simply "forgot" Ao. Our mythologies usually have a head of the pantheon like Zeus, Jupiter, Re, Odin. No totally supreme uber-god. This attitude makes sense if the gods fought with the primordials, both born from chaos.... because who was Ao if the Realmspace didn't exist at that point?
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 06:51 PM	Given what a DvR 20 being can achieve and what it is meant to represent, 40 is artificially inflated to too high an arbitrary numerical. The limitation to DvR 30 took into account the cosmology and the entities in it, we didn't just randomly assign numbers. -It isn't necessarily inflated when you keep in mind that we have no real clue of the extent that such entities have. We know Ao is the caretaker of Realmspace, and is nigh-omniscient within it. We know Krynn's High G-d occupies the same position, but in Krynnspace. We know the Lady of Pain seems* to occupy this position as well. That's all we really know, however. In my mind, you can't make an accurate assessment of something or other when you don't know the 'full story'- and, things are complicated when the 'full story' literally can mean infinite things. *The Lady of Pain isn't necessarily an overdeity, deity, or bunch of rodents under a mask.
Stigger 01-03-08, 07:52 PM	Why does it even matter would be my question... that he's over DvR 21 or better should be more than enough to say Ao >>> your PC.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 08:03 PM	Why does it even matter would be my question... that he's over DvR 21 or better should be more than enough to say Ao >>> your PC. -That goes without saying. DvR 1 >>>>> Your PC. -Now we're just discussing metaphysics.
MarkusTay63 01-03-08, 08:59 PM	Correction - Ao >>> Your PC, but < < < ME. :P I'm the guy at the end of the novel - the one who's boots AO licks.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 09:04 PM	I'm the guy at the end of the novel - the one who's boots AO licks. -Actually, its been established that that was Stigger.
Karsus the Mad 01-03-08, 09:59 PM	With all his luminous Stiggerness to boot.
Stigger 01-04-08, 12:09 AM	Indeed. :P @ Markus.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-04-08, 08:05 AM	He's not so powerful after all. Bane *resisted* longer than others. It's intriguing at least. Moreover, his power is limited/diminished outside Realmspace. He's just a powerful entity. Just like the Lady of Pain. And he, and any other entity similar to him, can be overpowered by the PCs. They just need to find "the key". Vecna found how to enter Sigil, for instance. The multiverse is full of possibilities. You're vastly underestimating overdeities, and it seems clear to me that you have no clear comprehension what they represent or how they function. Ao isn't just a powerful entity, he is father, creator, judge, etc to the Torilian deities. His will ensures that the deities of Faerun cater to their worshippers, fulfil the obligations of their portfolio, prevent unnecessary deicide, etc. Well, that is to say until the nascent of 4e, then everything went all pearshaped. It's similar with the Lady of Pain. She ensures that no unwanted trespassers enter Sigil, ie the divine, mazes those whose ambition would ruin the city, ie Rowan Darkwood, maintains the function of the infinite portals to and from the city; Sigil is the City of Doors after all. Most Planescape and other setting fans don't acknowledge the travesty that was Die Vecna Die. Personally, I don't like the whole overgod concept (we know of Ao, but what about other material worlds?), so I would be glad if WotC simply "forgot" Ao. Our mythologies usually have a head of the pantheon like Zeus, Jupiter, Re, Odin. No totally supreme uber-god. This attitude makes sense if the gods fought with the primordials, both born from chaos.... because who was Ao if the Realmspace didn't exist at that point? If you don't like it, don't include it in your games, it's as simple as that. But overdeities have been present throughout our mythology and in D&D mythology. For Kyrnn, there was the Highfather. Toril, Ao. For Planescape, the Lady of Pain, etc. You're simplifying it too much when you lump pantheon heads like Zeus in with overdeities. Pantheon heads and overdeities are apples to oranges. Deities represent a paradigm and portfolio. Overdeities transcend "restrictive" portfolios into encompassing abstract principles and are beyond them. -It isn't necessarily inflated when you keep in mind that we have no real clue of the extent that such entities have. We know Ao is the caretaker of Realmspace, and is nigh-omniscient within it. We know Krynn's High G-d occupies the same position, but in Krynnspace. We know the Lady of Pain seems* to occupy this position as well. That's all we really know, however. In my mind, you can't make an accurate assessment of something or other when you don't know the 'full story'- and, things are complicated when the 'full story' literally can mean infinite things. You're confusing yourself a little and arguing yourself into a tangled circle. If we have no real clue of the extent of the powers and abilities that such entities have, then DvR 40 is not enough, in fact, considering that they are nigh-omniscient in your view, 40 is far from enough. The question is, where does this end? The numbers by association become arbitrarily inflated due. We can, however, operate under assumptions of what we already know, consider the overarching cosmology at hand and slot them in that way. We now about deities and cosmic entities. We know that Ao humbled the deities of Toril, we know that he revoked their divinity with but a thought. We know that Ao is the overdeity of Realmspace but only Realmspace. From there, we can infer into the greater metasetting. We know that the Overlord encompasses an entire alignment, LE. We know that the Lady of Pain once killed a deity and his followers simultaneously and that she can restrict access to divine beings, maze entities and close or open portals at Her whim. From that information alone, we can build up a picture of what is possible by an overdeity, etc. *The Lady of Pain isn't necessarily an overdeity, deity, or bunch of rodents under a mask. I know. And clearly she is three rodents. Why does it even matter would be my question... that he's over DvR 21 or better should be more than enough to say Ao >>> your PC. It matters if you want the cosmology to reflect the scale and wonder of the metasetting. It matters especially if you want to understand the scale of and to scale entities next to each other and admire who can do what and what can achieve what, etc. It matters for the reasons I have already mentioned above.
Lord Karsus 01-04-08, 11:01 AM	For Kyrnn, there was the Highfather. Toril, Ao. For Planescape, the Lady of Pain, etc. -The Lady of Pain is not necessarily a deity, let alone overdeity. Again. You're confusing yourself a little and arguing yourself into a tangled circle. If we have no real clue of the extent of the powers and abilities that such entities have, then DvR 40 is not enough, in fact, considering that they are nigh-omniscient in your view, 40 is far from enough. The question is, where does this end? The numbers by association become arbitrarily inflated due. -You are right. It isn't enough. Because we don't know what overdeities truly are, we cannot give them a DvR, when the infinite is the limit. We know that the Overlord encompasses an entire alignment, LE. We know that the Lady of Pain once killed a deity and his followers simultaneously and that she can restrict access to divine beings, maze entities and close or open portals at Her whim. -None of that necessarily lends to the fact that she is a powerful overdeity of any sort. We can, however, operate under assumptions of what we already know, consider the overarching cosmology at hand and slot them in that way. We now about deities and cosmic entities. We know that Ao humbled the deities of Toril, we know that he revoked their divinity with but a thought. We know that Ao is the overdeity of Realmspace but only Realmspace. From there, we can infer into the greater metasetting. From that information alone, we can build up a picture of what is possible by an overdeity, etc. -A picture that isn't going to be right. And, what good is a picture that isn't going to be right? I'm not arguing about the methods of what you (or whoever) did. I'm arguing that overdeities, simply, transcend Divine Rank, because the possibilities are infinite and limitless, as far as we know. I know. And clearly she is three rodents. -It's true, she is.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-04-08, 08:35 PM	-The Lady of Pain is not necessarily a deity, let alone overdeity. Again. Yes, but I was operating under the assumption involving her displayed powers. -You are right. It isn't enough. Because we don't know what overdeities truly are, we cannot give them a DvR, when the infinite is the limit. But you could theoretically set aside numericals based on what they were displayed to achieve. -None of that necessarily lends to the fact that she is a powerful overdeity of any sort. But it lends great credence and believability and strengthens the argument that she may, in fact, be a powerful overdeity. No deity or other entity can slay divinity and its followers, no mere entity can open or close portals at a whim. No more entity can maze powerful mortals or immortals at a whim. All (abilities) which the Lady of Pain have performed. These powers are simply beyond what a deity or equivalent entity can do/achieve. -A picture that isn't going to be right. And, what good is a picture that isn't going to be right? I'm not arguing about the methods of what you (or whoever) did. I'm arguing that overdeities, simply, transcend Divine Rank, because the possibilities are infinite and limitless, as far as we know. No, but we can quantify when while operating assumptions and from what we already know, and we already know quite a lot. From there, we can infer and compare; overdeities do not simply transcend divine ranks, some overdeities can be quantified within the meta-setting. That was the point I was getting at. -It's true, she is. Hell yeah.
Stigger 01-05-08, 01:34 AM	I think it comes down to my not thinking that an entity like an overdeity is capable of being quantified in mortal terms, at least not with much meaning. Within their own contexts they are infinite, or effectively so from a mortal perspective, so numerical quantification becomes meaningless. They are, that's enough for me to work with. Who is more powerful than who is ultimately a mortal vanity, since at those levels its largely irrelevant, at least the way I view it. Much of that is already visible, since its a mortal concept that being the overdeity of an alignment is inherently more powerful than the overdeity of a solar system or even galaxy. That's how mortals view it, but to paraphrase a physicist, the omniverse is under no obligation to live up to our expectations.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-05-08, 08:20 AM	Yes, that is if you to take things seriously and actually include it in your campaigns. However, what I said are merely products of a thought experiment, we can safely posit. And we can quantify based on what we know, since we already have divine statistics, this makes everything easier. We originally broke down the list into encompassing abstract principles and encompassing solar systems, etc. Since we know that alignments in D&D permeates all settings, we know that an overdeific exemplar of an alignment would be more powerful than a similar overdeity of a solar system, ie Ao or the Highfather. This is something we can work from.
Asgetrion 01-05-08, 03:04 PM	-Actually, its been established that that was Stigger. I thought that was Rino... or maybe she just lied to me? ;) :confused: :P
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 05:07 PM	But you could theoretically set aside numericals based on what they were displayed to achieve. -Of course, but what something can actually do, and what something displays doing are two different things. A baseball prospect can show only midling talent, and then suddenly light it up in the big leagues, doing far more and far better than what was expected of him. I thought that was Rino... or maybe she just lied to me? ;) :confused: :P -I am beginning to think that this 'Luminous Being' is/was a manifestation of all of us.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 12:45 AM	-Of course, but what something can actually do, and what something displays doing are two different things. A baseball prospect can show only midling talent, and then suddenly light it up in the big leagues, doing far more and far better than what was expected of him. Wait, what? Displayed power is precisely a component of what a being can do. By displaying the power of something, you are showing what you can do. That's a mighty big exaggeration you have there and totally dependent on assumptions and conjecture. You are assuming that the prospect will 'omg' out of nowhere display exaggerated talent, you are assuming that time has passed and the prospect has been devoting his or her time to training 24/7. It's illogical to suggest that the prospect will automatically display or turn on unforeseen talent just like that. It doesn't work that way, and more importantly, you are forgetting that if any, the baseball prospect is mortal. An overdeity is another matter altogether. I have shown two things. One, Ao /> all, there are others beyond even him. Two, overdeities can be ranked according to displayed power and encompassing principle.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 12:49 AM	That's a mighty big exaggeration you have there and totally dependent on assumptions and conjecture. You are assuming that the prospect will 'omg' out of nowhere display exaggerated talent, you are assuming that time has passed and the prospect has been devoting his or her time to training 24/7. It's illogical to suggest that the prospect will automatically display or turn on unforeseen talent just like that. It doesn't work that way, and more importantly, you are forgetting that if any, the baseball prospect is mortal. -Joe Smith of the New York Mets was a perfect example. He was a solid AAA player, and impressed everyone enough to make it to the Bigs. Thrust into the Bigs, he suddenly went on a tear until the All-Star Break, when he was sent back down. His ERA was extremely low, and it took multiple games before he gave up his first run- even when called into situations with men on.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 12:53 AM	I don't know much about baseball, since it isn't exactly a big sport down under where I am. What I understood however was your example as already being a respected and successful player, impressing others enough to score it big and make it to the Big League. Once there, he only went downhill, which his talent didn't/doesn't seem to suggest. But your example is at odds to your original post of how your baseball prospect can display middling talent and yet show exaggerated talent once at the big time. However, an overdeity is not going to fall within such boundaries. An overdeity is an altogether different barrel of fish.
XHereticX 01-06-08, 12:54 AM	While we are on the subject of baseball, I just have to say, Go Red Sox!!!! :cheer: :cheer:
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 12:59 AM	I don't know much about baseball, since it isn't exactly a big sport down under where I am. What I understood however was your example already being a respected and successful player, impressing others enough to score it big and make it to the Big League. Once there, he only went downhill, which his talent didn't seem to suggest. But your example is at odds to your original post of how your baseball can display middling talent and yet show exaggerated talent once at the big time. -No, no, you have it reversed. The minor league player in question shows midling talent while in the minor leagues, and then when introduced in the major leagues, he shows potential and talent he never seemed to possess while in the minor leagues. The scenario could apply for any sport, really. I just know baseball the most, so... However, an overdeity is not going to fall within such boundaries. An overdeity is an altogether different barrel of fish. -Of course not, but that's what analogies are for.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 01:05 AM	-No, no, you have it reversed. The minor-league player in question shows midling talent while in the minor-leagues, and then when introduced in the major leagues, he shows potential and talent he never seemed to possess while in the minor leagues. Then why have you posted the minor league player going to the big time and having an ERA that was extremely low and taking multiple games before he gave up his first run? Besides which, your second example isn't someone who has or shows middling while in the minor league. How else could he have impressed everyone? At least explain what you mean by ERA et al. -Of course not, but that's what analogies are for. But your analogy isn't relevant to the context at hand, since it's an overdeity while you are referring to a mortal baseballer. Incidently, how could the minor leaguer with middling talent make it to the big leagues in the first place? If he can't show talent to selection officials, how does your minor leaguer get to play in the Big League? Your example falls flat.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 01:15 AM	Then why have you posted the minor league player going to the big time and having an ERA that was extremely low and taking multiple games before he gave up his first run? Besides which, your second example isn't someone who has or shows middling while in the minor league. How else could he have impressed everyone? At least explain what you mean by ERA et al. -Ah, you do not understand the rules of baseball. -ERA, Earned Run Average, is the measure used to determine how effective a pitcher is. It is the average of how many runs a pitcher gives up over the course of nine innings (one full game). Obviously, the lower the ERA, the better you are, because this means that you give up fewer runs to the opposing team over the course of a game. The record for lowest ERA in a single season is 1.12, achieved by Bob Gibson. This means that, over the fourty or so starts Bob Gibson had, he averaged giving up only one run to the opposing team that season. In modern baseball, an ERA under 2.00 is considered exceptional and is rare. An ERA between 2.00 and 3.00 is also considered excellent and is only achieved by the best pitchers in the league. An ERA between 3.00 and 4.00 is better than average. An ERA between 4.00 and 5.00 is average; the majority of pitchers have an ERA in this range. An ERA above 5.00 is generally considered worse than average, and a pitcher with an ERA above 6.00 for a prolonged period of time is usually in danger of demotion to the bullpen or a lower league Incidently, how could the minor leaguer with middling talent make it to the big leagues in the first place? If he can't show talent to selection officials, how does your minor leaguer get to play in the Big League? Your example falls flat. -Injuries happen (a team must have 25 men on the roster, and if a player is placed on the Disabled List, another player must fill in his spot on the roster for that time). September call ups (the 25 man roster is expanded to 40 men, to allow teams to see how their minor league players perform in the major leagues, at the end of the season).
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 01:27 AM	-Ah, you do not understand the rules of baseball. Yes, I never claimed I did, hence why I said 'I don't know much about baseball.' ;) And I did ask for explanations. Thanks for the explanations! -Injuries happen (a team must have 25 men on the roster, and if a player is placed on the Disabled List, another player must fill in his spot on the roster for that time). September call ups (the 25 man roster is expanded to 40 men, to allow teams to see how their minor league players perform in the major leagues, at the end of the season). Wow...I thought in sports you actually had to be someone of talent or skill to make it to the top...otherwise the selectors wouldn't want you...but it still doesn't explain how a middling talent can just turn on talent like that...talent doesn't turn on and off like a tap. An overdeity is always "on," always potent. An overdeity is to a deity or equivalent entity as to what a deity is to a mortal.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 01:59 AM	...but it still doesn't explain how a middling talent can just turn on talent like that...talent doesn't turn on and off like a tap. -At least in baseball, it does. There's a combination of factors that cause it. Since the pitcher is new, batters might simply not know what to expect. The pitcher, with higher quality coaches on the top level, might change something he does, and cause him to become more dominant. The pitcher may be entering in against low quality teams. Being in the majors gives the pitcher a boost in his confidence that transforms his game. There are a whole bunch of reasons. An overdeity is always "on," always potent. An overdeity is to a deity or equivalent entity as to what a deity is to a mortal. -Correct. However, we may only be seeing them when they are not "fufilling their full potential".
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 02:07 AM	-At least in baseball, it does. There's a combination of factors that cause it. Since the pitcher is new, batters might simply not know what to expect. The pitcher, with higher quality coaches on the top level, might change something he does, and cause him to become more dominant. The pitcher may be entering in against low quality teams. Being in the majors gives the pitcher a boost in his confidence that transforms his game. There are a whole bunch of reasons. This again assumes the preclusion of training by the baseballer. None of those factors actually affects the talent of a hitter or pitcher. A untalented pitcher pitching lazy balls that are easy to hit does not a talented baseballer make. An untalented hitter unable to hit the balls of the pitcher does not a talented pitcher make. Again, talent just doesn't turn on and off like that. To produce the talent needed, the baseballer would have need to combine a training regimen with knowledge of hitting techniques, etc. To say that the middling talented baseballer just turns on a talent he didn't know he possessed is illogical and silly. -Correct. However, we may only be seeing them when they are not "fufilling their full potential". How do you know that they are not?
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 02:20 AM	To say that the middling talented baseballer just turns on a talent he didn't know he possessed is illogical and silly. -Sandy Koufax, perhaps the best pitcher of all time, was an erratic pitcher in his youth, to the point where batters were often afraid of digging in against him. Walt Alston, manager of the Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers, used him extremely sparingly, because he was as likely to strike out the batter as he was to hit him, or walk him. By 1960, five years after his debut, having a losing pitching record, he contemplated quitting. His catcher suggested that he not throw as hard. Koufax listened, and the result is, well, history. Koufax posessed a talent he didn't realize he had, and could not harness. How do you know that they are not? -The same way that we know that they are. There is no definite way to tell, hence why I find the notion of giving overdeities Divine Ranks flawed.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 02:25 AM	-Sandy Koufax, perhaps the best pitcher of all time, was an erratic pitcher in his youth, to the point where batters were often afraid of digging in against him. Walt Alston, manager of the Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers, used him extremely sparingly, because he was as likely to strike out the batter as he was to hit him, or walk him. By 1960, five years after his debut, having a losing pitching record, he contemplated quitting. His catcher suggested that he not throw as hard. Koufax listened, and the result is, well, history. Koufax posessed a talent he didn't realize he had, and could not harness. That was through training yes, hard work, determination, yes? It didn't just suddenly or magically appear. -The same way that we know that they are. There is no definite way to tell, hence why I find the notion of giving overdeities Divine Ranks flawed. Their displayed power is always going to be a component of what they can actually do. You can't say that the overdeity would be capable of more if the overdeity isn't capable of tangibly presenting or manifesting it. It's not divine ranks anymore, it'd be overdeific ranks, something different to divine ranks yet similar, since they are an extension on the power line.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 02:55 AM	That was through training yes, hard work, determination, yes? It didn't just suddenly or magically appear. -No, it was through simply throwing less hard. You can't say that the overdeity would be capable of more if the overdeity isn't capable of tangibly presenting or manifesting it. -The overdeity may be capable of performing said actions. If we aren't privvy to knowing this, does it somehow cause the overdeity to not be capable? No. Objectivism.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 03:00 AM	-No, it was through simply throwing less hard. ... That is hardly the definition of talent suddenly just appearing. It wouldn't even be referred to talent at all. -The overdeity may be capable of performing said actions. If we aren't privvy to knowing this, does it somehow cause the overdeity to not be capable? No. Objectivism. Except we are privy to knowing what the overdeity can/could do. Refer to my stated examples.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 03:08 AM	...That is hardly the definition of talent suddenly just appearing. It wouldn't even be referred to talent at all. -Of course it would- countless authors/writers/announcers, as well as Major League Baseball and Cooperstown seem to agree, as a young pitcher gaining his form is commonly referred to as 'tuning his talent on', and variations on that theme. What would you call it, if not? Except we are privy to knowing what the overdeity can/could do. Refer to my stated examples. -We are privvy to know some things an overdeity can do. Are we privvy to everything an overdeity can do? Possibly, but we can't know for sure- which is where I find fault in assigning said beings a rank on a DvR scale.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 03:13 AM	-Of course it would- countless authors/writers/announcers, as well as Major League Baseball and Cooperstown seem to agree, as a young pitcher gaining his form is commonly referred to as 'tuning his talent on', and variations on that theme. What would you call it, if not? Just by throwing the ball less hard?... ... Again, that's hardly the definition of talent. In any case, he wouldn't have been able to throw it less hard just like that, especially if he had gotten into a habit of throwing the ball harder. He would have had to progressively find a rhythm and new ball throwing technique. -We are privvy to know some things an overdeity can do. Are we privvy to everything an overdeity can do? Possibly, but we can't know for sure- which is where I find fault in assigning said beings a rank on a DvR scale. And from there we can infer onwards. I never said that we are privy to everything an overdeity does or can do, but by comparing and objectively and subjectively quantifying we can achieve a benchmark of who sits in relation to whom. We already know that an overdeity is greater than/beyond a deity. This already places them on the DvR scale.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 11:37 AM	Just by throwing the ball less hard?... ... Again, that's hardly the definition of talent. In any case, he wouldn't have been able to throw it less hard just like that, especially if he had gotten into a habit of throwing the ball harder. He would have had to progressively find a rhythm and new ball throwing technique. -History disagrees with all points. In Spring Training '61, he went from a decent-to-poor pitcher to the most dominant pitcher in any given timeframe in Major League Baseball history, acting on the advice of catcher Norm Sherry. And from there we can infer onwards. I never said that we are privy to everything an overdeity does or can do, but by comparing and objectively and subjectively quantifying we can achieve a benchmark of who sits in relation to whom. We already know that an overdeity is greater than/beyond a deity. This already places them on the DvR scale. -That is certainly possible, but your results, as I said, aren't necessarily going to be correct, and assigning a DvR rank from these comparisons is going to be skewed. Thus, the reason why I do not agree with the process.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-06-08, 10:22 PM	-History disagrees with all points. In Spring Training '61, he went from a decent-to-poor pitcher to the most dominant pitcher in any given timeframe in Major League Baseball history, acting on the advice of catcher Norm Sherry. So, he just suddenly became more talented virtually overnight or within the same day, with no timeframe of transition given? -That is certainly possible, but your results, as I said, aren't necessarily going to be correct, and assigning a DvR rank from these comparisons is going to be skewed. Thus, the reason why I do not agree with the process. Uh, I never claimed they were meant to be correct. I did say they gave guidelines to what an overdeity can achieve. In your words, pay attention.
creyzi4zb12 02-20-08, 10:15 AM	:bump: Come to think of it, I think it is possible to beat Ao, I could remember Tristan from "Darkwell" kicking Bhaal's ass.
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 10:27 AM	:bump: Come to think of it, I think it is possible to beat Ao, I could remember Tristan from "Darkwell" kicking Bhaal's ass. -Bhaal was a deity. We know that deities are 'killable'. Ao is not a deity. He is an Overdeity.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-20-08, 10:42 AM	-Bhaal was a deity. We know that deities are 'killable'. Ao is not a deity. He is an Overdeity. I think that the prolem is that people tend to think Ao is like Zeus or Odin. Ao's not the king of the gods, The's the "god" of the gods.
creyzi4zb12 02-20-08, 10:59 AM	Well, deity's and overdeity's are pretty close....maybe not that close, but Tristan wasn't even one of the most powerful in Faerun...what if 10 of the best in the realms teams up against Ao? That'd be a good match.... Hmmmm....Let's see Shurrupak, Elminster, Larloch, Iaolum, The Simbul and more against Ao, that'd be a good one.
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 11:02 AM	Well, deity's and overdeity's are pretty close....maybe not that close... -Right, not that close. but Tristan wasn't even one of the most powerful in Faerun...what if 10 of the best in the realms teams up against Ao? That'd be a good match.... Hmmmm....Let's see Shurrupak, Elminster, Larloch, Iaolum, The Simbul and more against Ao, that'd be a good one. -No.
Warning 02-20-08, 11:58 AM	I already killed AO already. He was my dad. I actually recorded it. Heres how it went down: http://youtube.com/watch?v=A20Dcw9Izyo Later that day I did this too: http://youtube.com/watch?v=5t_mRwXjcg0 Took over the world. FR is done.
GothicDan 02-20-08, 12:11 PM	No.
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 12:34 PM	No. -That about sums up all 18 pages. Pure 'no'.
GothicDan 02-20-08, 02:48 PM	QED.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-20-08, 08:12 PM	Indeed! Er--I mean, NO!
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-21-08, 12:49 AM	*ahem* NO.:D