Stats for Major characters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Stats for Major characters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
vstat
03-19-07, 04:10 PM I have a copy of Heros Lorebook, which give stats for important NPCs. The problem is that it is written for AD&D. Is there an update book for 3.0 or 3.5?

Also, I'm fairly new to the world, who are some of the biggest names? I know of Drizzt and Eleminster. Who would you recommend (high profile people) to throw into a campaign?
TomCosta
03-19-07, 04:33 PM No 1E or 2E products were officially updated per se, though obviously regions have been revisited.

As to your question, the answer is most of the characters have not been officially updated. That said several appear in the 3E FRCS (with the most powerful getting a little update in the Epic Level Handbook) and others have gotten some update in various other books. For example, Wulfgar and Bruenor are in Silver Marches. The rest of the Drizzt crew were updated on the WotC book site (search in the archives for the Companions of the Hall article from 2003 IIRC -- can't remember exactly, but I wrote it -- but be warned, searching the archives of the WotC book section is horrible). Some newer characters have appeared in various issues of Dragon magazine, perhaps a search of DragonDex.com will help you find some of them.

Lastly, there is a thread here on the boards under the people section wherein fans have converted nearly every major character to various degrees of success IMO, but all still quite usable and the works done. :-)

Now if you're looking for somone specific, well, you'll have to let us know.
Lord Karsus
03-19-07, 05:03 PM Who would you recommend (high profile people) to throw into a campaign?

-Do this in moderation, because player might begin to become unsettled and say things akin to, "Well, let's just let Elminster handle this problem, since he is a mighty wizard, and we're just a low-level band of PCs".
Old Sage
03-19-07, 07:58 PM vstat, I would recommend you look over Kuje's 3e/3.5e NPC listing (http://home.rochester.rr.com/kuje/npcs%203e.xls) for the official stats and their sources of 3e/3.5e NPCs from the Realmslore.
Green Giant
03-19-07, 08:42 PM Check the links in my sig for some unofficial stats for Realms NPCs.
Mad Mage
03-19-07, 09:13 PM Here's the official 3.X stats for Cattie Brie, Regis, and the Bouldershoulder Brothers (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats).

And here's official 3.X stats for Cadderly Bonaduce (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneir).

Wulgar & Bruenor Battlehammer both appear in Silver Marches, but those stats (particularly Bruenor's) have some errors in them. I have some homebrew stats for Bruenor here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11312377).

I have these in my Favorites. :D

I'm not as much making suggestions as I am showing you some stats for famous NPCs that appeared in the Heroes Lorebook.
Critalondel
03-20-07, 10:26 PM Here's the official 3.X stats for Cattie Brie, Regis, and the Bouldershoulder Brothers (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats).

And here's official 3.X stats for Cadderly Bonaduce (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneir).

Wulgar & Bruenor Battlehammer both appear in Silver Marches, but those stats (particularly Bruenor's) have some errors in them. I have some homebrew stats for Bruenor here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11312377).

I have these in my Favorites. :D

I'm not as much making suggestions as I am showing you some stats for famous NPCs that appeared in the Heroes Lorebook.
Man, I really love how Drizzt is like twice the level of every other character in those novels. Reading over Regis and Cattie Brie's made me dig around and find my book with Wulfgar and Bruenor's...and it really just pisses me off how much the "fanboyism" infect Salvatore himself (from reading the later novels) and the official "stat up some NPCs" design team at Wizards.
The Simbul
03-21-07, 01:19 AM Man, I really love how Drizzt is like twice the level of every other character in those novels. Reading over Regis and Cattie Brie's made me dig around and find my book with Wulfgar and Bruenor's...and it really just pisses me off how much the "fanboyism" infect Salvatore himself (from reading the later novels) and the official "stat up some NPCs" design team at Wizards.I was under the impression that Drizzt's high level, which goes back to AD&D or even earlier, was necessary to give an in game justification and accounting for most of his numerous combat abilities, presumably displayed in the novels.

Of course I could personally care less, but that is the impression I was under.

I also don't believe R.A. Salvatore does or has written any of the NPC statistics blocks, so pinning the level discrepancy on him seems a little off. If he does in fact write the statistics for his characters, then he should be required to stat out whatever dagger he gave to Artemis that we keep seeing endless stat-speculation threads discussing every other month, as well as a version of Obould that can actually survive longer than three rounds of combat against Drizzt at the game table, let alone actually defeat him.
Faraer
03-21-07, 03:43 PM Also, I'm fairly new to the world, who are some of the biggest names? I know of Drizzt and Eleminster. Who would you recommend (high profile people) to throw into a campaign?These characters have a high profile in the *marketing* of the Realms, not in the setting itself. Drizzt is little known outside the Sword Coast North. Elminster is legendary and widely rumoured, but few know much truth of him.

NPCs should be used as and when it's appropriate for the location and events of your campaign, not as gratuitous 'guest stars'.
TomCosta
03-21-07, 04:59 PM Man, I really love how Drizzt is like twice the level of every other character in those novels. Reading over Regis and Cattie Brie's made me dig around and find my book with Wulfgar and Bruenor's...and it really just pisses me off how much the "fanboyism" infect Salvatore himself (from reading the later novels) and the official "stat up some NPCs" design team at Wizards.

Well, without steering us too far off the original topic of this thread.... I found this comment for lack of a better word, odd.

Drizzt's and the Companions (Wulfgar, Bruenor, Catti-brie, Regis, Guen, as well as Artemis) levels were set in the orignal Hall of Heroes, a very early 2E (or maybe late 1E) product, and if I recall correctly were worked up originally by Salvatore who used to play D&D himself. These were carried over and updated into the Heroes Lorebook and eventually to the 3E FRCS. They were then, and I think are now a fair representation of the characters (though in 3E their magic items were purposefuly downplayed.)

I'm not sure if you're upset because you think Drizzt is just too powerful or that his companions should be more powerful or just with Salvatore's writing or fans, but I can speak specifically to the stats for Catti-brie, Regis, and the revised Guen, as I wrote them, and the bottom line is I had to make them comparable to what had come in earlier editions of the game, my interpretation of the what had occurred in the novels, and compared to what the current state of the Companions was (in FRCS and Silver Marches). Frankly, I was pretty darn happy with them, and I'm sorry if they didn't work for you.

That said, there are many folks who believe that Drizzt, in particular, should be of much higher level because of some of the funky leveling issues in 2E and the descriptions of the character in the books (particularly in battling various demons, though it's important to note the divergent power levels of demons between editions, including the beef up between 3E and 3.5E), particularly as Artemis (his near equal) goes toe to toe with characters established to be around 20 in his most recent trilogy. It's a fair argument IMHO. That said, I understand the fan desire to pump their favorite characters. Sometimes I think they're right and sometimes not, and there are plenty of boards here to discuss that.

As for whether Drizzt is statted as too powerful to begin with or in comparison to his other companions, I would only suggest that that is a fair portrayal of how capable he is shown to be in the books compared to other characters we know the levels of. Practically speaking, he is both much older than Catti-brie and Wulfgar and more used to a life of constant battle because of his history than any of the companions. Ultimately, however, it is the way the character has been portrayed from the beginning.

And if you just don't like Drizzt, Salvatore's writing, or his fans, well, than that is simply your prerogative, but probably not relevant to the questions asked by the originator of this post or within the discussion parameters of the boards.
Critalondel
03-22-07, 02:11 AM It just seems odd to me -- every time I think about it -- that the dark elf ranger that was originally intended to be a sidekick/support character to Wulfgar...has morphed into a guy that's twice as powerful as any of his best friends in the world, instead. It's always been my understanding the FR novels are supposed to appeal to gamers by, in some fashion, ringing true to our in-game experiences. I've long been of the opinion that most gamers play in groups, alongside friends playing characters of comparable power levels (easily enough worked out, since it's a level based system, after all)...

...and yet, in an awful lot of Salvatore's work, it's like he gets so excited about one or two characters in each storyline that they end up completely leaping ahead of everyone else that they're supposed to be adventuring with in these novels we read. Drizzt isn't that much older than several of his companions in just raw years (Heck, Bruenor's older than him, last I checked) and in terms of "my age versus the longevity of my race" isn't any older than Wulfgar or Cattie Brie (both of whom are, IIRC, approaching middle age while it's still decades away for Drizzt)...yet he's twice the level of most of his stalwart companions (who are barely even the Robins to his Batman, as a result). Ditto, Cadderly (seriously, he's running around with a couple 7th level Dwarves?), though his case is both (a) somewhat special (and actually more pronounced) in that there's "Chosen" stuff going on, and (b) a less popular series/character than what's become "The Legend of Drizzt." It just always strikes me as odd that there's one guy that's got to be head and shoulders out front of all his buddies, in stories that are -- in theory -- supposed to be about the group as a whole, not a hero and a few hangers-on.

If I outright disliked Salvatore's writing, I certainly wouldn't own as much of it as I do. It's just that I begin -- towards the end of the series, or in my case every time I read over official game stats for most of them -- to get the feeling Salvatore is, for lack of a better term, reading his own hype. Drizzt is popular, so Drizzt gets more powerful, so Drizzt gets more popular, so Drizzt gets more powerful, etc, etc, etc. It's odd to me that so many people enjoy that, as the cycle continues and the power gap widens. The term that's sometimes used for that special type of exuberance in other on-line communities is "drinking the kool-aid."

D&D's always been a game about teamwork -- I think someone on here even has a quote from Greenwood in their sig about the very subject -- and about the various members of a party needing one another to survive, to thrive, and to succeed. I think Ed even said "when that is no longer the case, the game will no longer be D&D." And yet, for some reason, in so many of the setting's most popular novels, having one character two (or more) times as powerful, and very obviously so than all of his buddies is seen as perfectly okay.

I apologize if this sort of discussion is against the forum ToS or anything (I've only been here a few weeks, and maybe I missed a rule somewhere). It's just that seeing the official game stats again sort of rubbed salt in the wound, so to speak, and got me all riled up. My issue isn't one with the game stats -- from all that I've read, they're perfectly accurate -- it's, I guess, an issue with the fact that they are so accurate, and there really are fantastically popular novels about an ubermensch leading a cadre of lackies around (in terms of power level), instead of the most wildly popular FR stories being about groups of similarly experienced and powerful friends working together and relying on each other the way D&D parties are meant to. You seem to have done a good job statting everyone up, and my beef isn't with you so much as it's with the source material itself. :)

It's not so much a matter of anger or anything, as much as disappointment. I guess it just makes me a little sad that the most popular FR novels aren't about a traditional group of D&D type characters working together, so much as they seem to be novelizations of a solo campaign that has a few handy NPCs floating around in it (but that still always has "the GM" make sure that one character shines twice as bright as anyone else).
Lord Karsus
03-22-07, 09:14 AM -Crit, that was all very poignant.
PaulKemp
03-22-07, 10:43 AM Crit,

I'd submit that you may be confusing what makes for good gaming in D&D with what makes for a good novel set in a world that also serves as a setting for D&D games. The idea that adventurers of various classes and similar power levels would hang out together for mutual gain and exploration is a conceit designed to facilitate an enjoyable playing experience for players in the game. That's understandable, because it is generally true that few players would enjoy playing in a group where Bob is 20th level and everyone else is 5th.

In a novel, that concern is gone. There is no external group dynamic that needs to be managed (there's only a dynamic internal to the protagonists). The point is simply to tell a good story. Sometimes that is done in a group with disparate power levels (one need only look at the Fellowship in the Lord of the Rings to see a relatively wide gap between the power levels of the various members, or Moorcock's Elric tales, or Conan, etc.) and sometimes not. But the presence or absence of power parity among the protagonists is not, in an of itself, an indicator of whether the story is good or bad. It's just a storytelling device. You may not like it, and that's fine, but it's not a flaw in any literary sense.
Faraer
03-22-07, 05:49 PM I certainly agree that character parity is no standard of good, but . . .

Aspects of the Realms are influenced by the wish to accommodate and make natural adventuring and adventuring companies: hence the adventuring culture, abundant ruins of ancient civilizations, etc.

A party of equally potent adventurers is to some extent a conceit, a D&D convention, but not entirely. It's a common dynamic within the setting: many adventuring companies grew up together or otherwise joined as novices, and a band is likely to seek new members of roughly equal ability that can pull their weight without being a threat to the social balance of the group. From a storytelling point of view, peers working together is a pleasing and productive dynamic, in roleplaying and in prose. (Compare, similar and different: people's friends tend to be about the same age, but mixed-age groups are also good.)

There are published adventuring companies, NPCs and PCs too, with disparities in character level, such as Dove in the Knights of Myth Drannor. The social nature of RPG play makes for differences with written fiction, but the same storytelling principles apply more than not. There's no big necessary gap here between novel and game, rather between novel and a particular, limited idea of D&D, one that isn't strictly kept to in the Realms. Some players don't like their PC to follow another leader, a Florin or a Mane, but many don't mind. At extremes, it's true that mighty leader plus followers is an unpromising set-up for RPG play, but in a novel or film, too, that usually translates to main character plus sidekicks or extras, not several leads.

All things being equal, I like a family of friends (who needn't be all the same 'level') better as a model of healthy human consciousness than a leader and servants; and the more so in the Realms, where cooperation is such a deep and developed part of the setting's theme of societal good.

The Companions of the Hall, we also remember, spend far more time apart than a typical adventuring band.
Grandmaster_Kane
03-25-07, 04:24 PM Throw grandmaster kane in and watch the bodies pile up lol
bitter thorn
03-25-07, 09:58 PM These characters have a high profile in the *marketing* of the Realms, not in the setting itself. Drizzt is little known outside the Sword Coast North. Elminster is legendary and widely rumoured, but few know much truth of him.

NPCs should be used as and when it's appropriate for the location and events of your campaign, not as gratuitous 'guest stars'.

To expand on this concept, it really depends on your gaming group also. My group hates gratuitous cameos, but some gaming groups really get a kick out of the celebrity factor of running into iconic Realms NPCs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vstat 03-19-07, 04:10 PM	I have a copy of Heros Lorebook, which give stats for important NPCs. The problem is that it is written for AD&D. Is there an update book for 3.0 or 3.5? Also, I'm fairly new to the world, who are some of the biggest names? I know of Drizzt and Eleminster. Who would you recommend (high profile people) to throw into a campaign?
TomCosta 03-19-07, 04:33 PM	No 1E or 2E products were officially updated per se, though obviously regions have been revisited. As to your question, the answer is most of the characters have not been officially updated. That said several appear in the 3E FRCS (with the most powerful getting a little update in the Epic Level Handbook) and others have gotten some update in various other books. For example, Wulfgar and Bruenor are in Silver Marches. The rest of the Drizzt crew were updated on the WotC book site (search in the archives for the Companions of the Hall article from 2003 IIRC -- can't remember exactly, but I wrote it -- but be warned, searching the archives of the WotC book section is horrible). Some newer characters have appeared in various issues of Dragon magazine, perhaps a search of DragonDex.com will help you find some of them. Lastly, there is a thread here on the boards under the people section wherein fans have converted nearly every major character to various degrees of success IMO, but all still quite usable and the works done. :-) Now if you're looking for somone specific, well, you'll have to let us know.
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 05:03 PM	Who would you recommend (high profile people) to throw into a campaign? -Do this in moderation, because player might begin to become unsettled and say things akin to, "Well, let's just let Elminster handle this problem, since he is a mighty wizard, and we're just a low-level band of PCs".
Old Sage 03-19-07, 07:58 PM	vstat, I would recommend you look over Kuje's 3e/3.5e NPC listing (http://home.rochester.rr.com/kuje/npcs%203e.xls) for the official stats and their sources of 3e/3.5e NPCs from the Realmslore.
Green Giant 03-19-07, 08:42 PM	Check the links in my sig for some unofficial stats for Realms NPCs.
Mad Mage 03-19-07, 09:13 PM	Here's the official 3.X stats for Cattie Brie, Regis, and the Bouldershoulder Brothers (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats). And here's official 3.X stats for Cadderly Bonaduce (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneir). Wulgar & Bruenor Battlehammer both appear in Silver Marches, but those stats (particularly Bruenor's) have some errors in them. I have some homebrew stats for Bruenor here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11312377). I have these in my Favorites. :D I'm not as much making suggestions as I am showing you some stats for famous NPCs that appeared in the Heroes Lorebook.
Critalondel 03-20-07, 10:26 PM	Here's the official 3.X stats for Cattie Brie, Regis, and the Bouldershoulder Brothers (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats). And here's official 3.X stats for Cadderly Bonaduce (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneir). Wulgar & Bruenor Battlehammer both appear in Silver Marches, but those stats (particularly Bruenor's) have some errors in them. I have some homebrew stats for Bruenor here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11312377). I have these in my Favorites. :D I'm not as much making suggestions as I am showing you some stats for famous NPCs that appeared in the Heroes Lorebook. Man, I really love how Drizzt is like twice the level of every other character in those novels. Reading over Regis and Cattie Brie's made me dig around and find my book with Wulfgar and Bruenor's...and it really just pisses me off how much the "fanboyism" infect Salvatore himself (from reading the later novels) and the official "stat up some NPCs" design team at Wizards.
The Simbul 03-21-07, 01:19 AM	Man, I really love how Drizzt is like twice the level of every other character in those novels. Reading over Regis and Cattie Brie's made me dig around and find my book with Wulfgar and Bruenor's...and it really just pisses me off how much the "fanboyism" infect Salvatore himself (from reading the later novels) and the official "stat up some NPCs" design team at Wizards.I was under the impression that Drizzt's high level, which goes back to AD&D or even earlier, was necessary to give an in game justification and accounting for most of his numerous combat abilities, presumably displayed in the novels. Of course I could personally care less, but that is the impression I was under. I also don't believe R.A. Salvatore does or has written any of the NPC statistics blocks, so pinning the level discrepancy on him seems a little off. If he does in fact write the statistics for his characters, then he should be required to stat out whatever dagger he gave to Artemis that we keep seeing endless stat-speculation threads discussing every other month, as well as a version of Obould that can actually survive longer than three rounds of combat against Drizzt at the game table, let alone actually defeat him.
Faraer 03-21-07, 03:43 PM	Also, I'm fairly new to the world, who are some of the biggest names? I know of Drizzt and Eleminster. Who would you recommend (high profile people) to throw into a campaign?These characters have a high profile in the marketing of the Realms, not in the setting itself. Drizzt is little known outside the Sword Coast North. Elminster is legendary and widely rumoured, but few know much truth of him. NPCs should be used as and when it's appropriate for the location and events of your campaign, not as gratuitous 'guest stars'.
TomCosta 03-21-07, 04:59 PM	Man, I really love how Drizzt is like twice the level of every other character in those novels. Reading over Regis and Cattie Brie's made me dig around and find my book with Wulfgar and Bruenor's...and it really just pisses me off how much the "fanboyism" infect Salvatore himself (from reading the later novels) and the official "stat up some NPCs" design team at Wizards. Well, without steering us too far off the original topic of this thread.... I found this comment for lack of a better word, odd. Drizzt's and the Companions (Wulfgar, Bruenor, Catti-brie, Regis, Guen, as well as Artemis) levels were set in the orignal Hall of Heroes, a very early 2E (or maybe late 1E) product, and if I recall correctly were worked up originally by Salvatore who used to play D&D himself. These were carried over and updated into the Heroes Lorebook and eventually to the 3E FRCS. They were then, and I think are now a fair representation of the characters (though in 3E their magic items were purposefuly downplayed.) I'm not sure if you're upset because you think Drizzt is just too powerful or that his companions should be more powerful or just with Salvatore's writing or fans, but I can speak specifically to the stats for Catti-brie, Regis, and the revised Guen, as I wrote them, and the bottom line is I had to make them comparable to what had come in earlier editions of the game, my interpretation of the what had occurred in the novels, and compared to what the current state of the Companions was (in FRCS and Silver Marches). Frankly, I was pretty darn happy with them, and I'm sorry if they didn't work for you. That said, there are many folks who believe that Drizzt, in particular, should be of much higher level because of some of the funky leveling issues in 2E and the descriptions of the character in the books (particularly in battling various demons, though it's important to note the divergent power levels of demons between editions, including the beef up between 3E and 3.5E), particularly as Artemis (his near equal) goes toe to toe with characters established to be around 20 in his most recent trilogy. It's a fair argument IMHO. That said, I understand the fan desire to pump their favorite characters. Sometimes I think they're right and sometimes not, and there are plenty of boards here to discuss that. As for whether Drizzt is statted as too powerful to begin with or in comparison to his other companions, I would only suggest that that is a fair portrayal of how capable he is shown to be in the books compared to other characters we know the levels of. Practically speaking, he is both much older than Catti-brie and Wulfgar and more used to a life of constant battle because of his history than any of the companions. Ultimately, however, it is the way the character has been portrayed from the beginning. And if you just don't like Drizzt, Salvatore's writing, or his fans, well, than that is simply your prerogative, but probably not relevant to the questions asked by the originator of this post or within the discussion parameters of the boards.
Critalondel 03-22-07, 02:11 AM	It just seems odd to me -- every time I think about it -- that the dark elf ranger that was originally intended to be a sidekick/support character to Wulfgar...has morphed into a guy that's twice as powerful as any of his best friends in the world, instead. It's always been my understanding the FR novels are supposed to appeal to gamers by, in some fashion, ringing true to our in-game experiences. I've long been of the opinion that most gamers play in groups, alongside friends playing characters of comparable power levels (easily enough worked out, since it's a level based system, after all)... ...and yet, in an awful lot of Salvatore's work, it's like he gets so excited about one or two characters in each storyline that they end up completely leaping ahead of everyone else that they're supposed to be adventuring with in these novels we read. Drizzt isn't that much older than several of his companions in just raw years (Heck, Bruenor's older than him, last I checked) and in terms of "my age versus the longevity of my race" isn't any older than Wulfgar or Cattie Brie (both of whom are, IIRC, approaching middle age while it's still decades away for Drizzt)...yet he's twice the level of most of his stalwart companions (who are barely even the Robins to his Batman, as a result). Ditto, Cadderly (seriously, he's running around with a couple 7th level Dwarves?), though his case is both (a) somewhat special (and actually more pronounced) in that there's "Chosen" stuff going on, and (b) a less popular series/character than what's become "The Legend of Drizzt." It just always strikes me as odd that there's one guy that's got to be head and shoulders out front of all his buddies, in stories that are -- in theory -- supposed to be about the group as a whole, not a hero and a few hangers-on. If I outright disliked Salvatore's writing, I certainly wouldn't own as much of it as I do. It's just that I begin -- towards the end of the series, or in my case every time I read over official game stats for most of them -- to get the feeling Salvatore is, for lack of a better term, reading his own hype. Drizzt is popular, so Drizzt gets more powerful, so Drizzt gets more popular, so Drizzt gets more powerful, etc, etc, etc. It's odd to me that so many people enjoy that, as the cycle continues and the power gap widens. The term that's sometimes used for that special type of exuberance in other on-line communities is "drinking the kool-aid." D&D's always been a game about teamwork -- I think someone on here even has a quote from Greenwood in their sig about the very subject -- and about the various members of a party needing one another to survive, to thrive, and to succeed. I think Ed even said "when that is no longer the case, the game will no longer be D&D." And yet, for some reason, in so many of the setting's most popular novels, having one character two (or more) times as powerful, and very obviously so than all of his buddies is seen as perfectly okay. I apologize if this sort of discussion is against the forum ToS or anything (I've only been here a few weeks, and maybe I missed a rule somewhere). It's just that seeing the official game stats again sort of rubbed salt in the wound, so to speak, and got me all riled up. My issue isn't one with the game stats -- from all that I've read, they're perfectly accurate -- it's, I guess, an issue with the fact that they are so accurate, and there really are fantastically popular novels about an ubermensch leading a cadre of lackies around (in terms of power level), instead of the most wildly popular FR stories being about groups of similarly experienced and powerful friends working together and relying on each other the way D&D parties are meant to. You seem to have done a good job statting everyone up, and my beef isn't with you so much as it's with the source material itself. :) It's not so much a matter of anger or anything, as much as disappointment. I guess it just makes me a little sad that the most popular FR novels aren't about a traditional group of D&D type characters working together, so much as they seem to be novelizations of a solo campaign that has a few handy NPCs floating around in it (but that still always has "the GM" make sure that one character shines twice as bright as anyone else).
Lord Karsus 03-22-07, 09:14 AM	-Crit, that was all very poignant.
PaulKemp 03-22-07, 10:43 AM	Crit, I'd submit that you may be confusing what makes for good gaming in D&D with what makes for a good novel set in a world that also serves as a setting for D&D games. The idea that adventurers of various classes and similar power levels would hang out together for mutual gain and exploration is a conceit designed to facilitate an enjoyable playing experience for players in the game. That's understandable, because it is generally true that few players would enjoy playing in a group where Bob is 20th level and everyone else is 5th. In a novel, that concern is gone. There is no external group dynamic that needs to be managed (there's only a dynamic internal to the protagonists). The point is simply to tell a good story. Sometimes that is done in a group with disparate power levels (one need only look at the Fellowship in the Lord of the Rings to see a relatively wide gap between the power levels of the various members, or Moorcock's Elric tales, or Conan, etc.) and sometimes not. But the presence or absence of power parity among the protagonists is not, in an of itself, an indicator of whether the story is good or bad. It's just a storytelling device. You may not like it, and that's fine, but it's not a flaw in any literary sense.
Faraer 03-22-07, 05:49 PM	I certainly agree that character parity is no standard of good, but . . . Aspects of the Realms are influenced by the wish to accommodate and make natural adventuring and adventuring companies: hence the adventuring culture, abundant ruins of ancient civilizations, etc. A party of equally potent adventurers is to some extent a conceit, a D&D convention, but not entirely. It's a common dynamic within the setting: many adventuring companies grew up together or otherwise joined as novices, and a band is likely to seek new members of roughly equal ability that can pull their weight without being a threat to the social balance of the group. From a storytelling point of view, peers working together is a pleasing and productive dynamic, in roleplaying and in prose. (Compare, similar and different: people's friends tend to be about the same age, but mixed-age groups are also good.) There are published adventuring companies, NPCs and PCs too, with disparities in character level, such as Dove in the Knights of Myth Drannor. The social nature of RPG play makes for differences with written fiction, but the same storytelling principles apply more than not. There's no big necessary gap here between novel and game, rather between novel and a particular, limited idea of D&D, one that isn't strictly kept to in the Realms. Some players don't like their PC to follow another leader, a Florin or a Mane, but many don't mind. At extremes, it's true that mighty leader plus followers is an unpromising set-up for RPG play, but in a novel or film, too, that usually translates to main character plus sidekicks or extras, not several leads. All things being equal, I like a family of friends (who needn't be all the same 'level') better as a model of healthy human consciousness than a leader and servants; and the more so in the Realms, where cooperation is such a deep and developed part of the setting's theme of societal good. The Companions of the Hall, we also remember, spend far more time apart than a typical adventuring band.
Grandmaster_Kane 03-25-07, 04:24 PM	Throw grandmaster kane in and watch the bodies pile up lol
bitter thorn 03-25-07, 09:58 PM	These characters have a high profile in the marketing of the Realms, not in the setting itself. Drizzt is little known outside the Sword Coast North. Elminster is legendary and widely rumoured, but few know much truth of him. NPCs should be used as and when it's appropriate for the location and events of your campaign, not as gratuitous 'guest stars'. To expand on this concept, it really depends on your gaming group also. My group hates gratuitous cameos, but some gaming groups really get a kick out of the celebrity factor of running into iconic Realms NPCs.