Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zaistars69 04-06-07, 11:10 AM	Are the sun elves the same as the Grey elves just as the moon elves are the same as the high elves? If I remember right all of the other elven types have the same racial ability adjustments and such as the ones in the MM just with different names. The aquatic elf (appears in the races of Faerun) has the same racial adj as the ones in the SRD and MM. It seems like the newer material should supersede the old 3.0 stuff unless I'm missing a 3.5 FR book (which is easily possible).
Dr_Tough 04-06-07, 12:50 PM	I always thought that moon elves were grey elves and sun elves were also called gold elves. Now that I looked it up in Monster Manual, it appears that you are correct.
The-Half 04-06-07, 04:04 PM	WHAT?!?! You both are confusing me. Unless I'm mistaken: Sun Elves are the same as High Elves, Gold Elves. And Moon Elves are the same as Grey Elves. And Green Elves are the same as Wood Elves. And Brown Elves are the same as Wild Elves. Am I wrong??? Because I'm pretty sure I'm correct.
Ramenth 04-06-07, 04:21 PM	Wait, I thought Wood elves were wild elves? And arent Moon elves often called silver elves, not Gray elves?
The-Half 04-06-07, 04:52 PM	I'm pretty sure Wood Elves and Wild Elves are 2 different things. But I agree with you that I do think Moon Elves are also called Silver Elves..... but I thought they were also called grey elves.
bobiuszzz 04-06-07, 05:08 PM	You are getting them mixed up. Moon Elves (Silver Elves) are the same as the High Elf in the MM. Sun Elves (Gold Elves) are different from Grey Elves. A Sun Elf has +2 Int -2 Con and a bronze taint, while a Grey Elf has -2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +2 INT and a pale skin. Wild Elves (Green Elves) are the same as in the MM. Wood Elves (Copper Elves) have the same as in the MM. In the Realms the woodelves are the result of a mingling of moon, sun and green elves who have interbred into a new subrace. More Details can be found in Races of Fearun
Derren S. 04-06-07, 05:53 PM	This is the proof that there are too many elf subraces.
Lord Karsus 04-06-07, 06:46 PM	-You're all a bunch of Doofi! -Anyway, I just want to add that Grey Elf is a Sun Elven insult towards Moon Elves. -These are the Elven Subraces that exist in Realmspace: Arctic Elves Aquatic Elves Avariel Drow Fey'ri Lythari Marel Moon Elves Star Elves Sun Elves Wild Elves* Wood Elves* *Used to be the same thing, as Wild Elves are really just Wood Elves who have reverted to barbarism and savagery. -Note that "Well, in Core D&D, this Elf is really this Elf" doesn't work, since they are all unique, and have inherently different stories/origins.
GothicDan 04-06-07, 09:12 PM	Let's not talk about the Silvanesti, Qualinesti, and Dargonesti, and the Rockseers, and the Shadow Elves, and..!
Old Sage 04-06-07, 09:55 PM	*Used to be the same thing, as Wild Elves are really just Wood Elves who have reverted to barbarism and savagery.I'll note that Races of Faerūn does suggest that in the period after, or rather during the aftermath of, the Crown Wars, the green elves went in one of two cultural directions - there were those that stayed wild and thus remained greens, or those that adopted a more civilised mindset and became wood (copper) elves. Though, for me, these cultural differences aren't enough to completely justify significant differences in racial stats.
GothicDan 04-06-07, 09:58 PM	Indeed. Especially since Elves don't evolve as we know it, physically, without direct divine patronage.
Old Sage 04-06-07, 09:59 PM	Let's not talk about the Silvanesti, Qualinesti, and Dargonesti..!Now, now GD... I happen to be a fan of the elven races in DL. Besides, you forgot the Kagonesti, Dimernesti, Lucanesti, Hestite, Mahkwahb, Silvanaes, Tamire, Cha'asii, Huldrefolk, Talanesti, and Beekatawahb. ;)
GothicDan 04-06-07, 10:07 PM	I am too! I was just adding more to the mix to confuse people. :) Seeing as I like the Ar'Tel-Quessir so much, it's no I liked first of all the Silvanesti.
The Ubbergeek 04-07-07, 12:31 AM	A few individuals (like the Feyri) a race do not make. And hybrids are not a race eitheir, but hybrids.
Aegis_Chiron 04-07-07, 04:15 AM	Way too many subraces in the realms. It used to be so simple. But there's no sense in longing for the good ole days. What are the Marel Elves? I kid you not, I've never heard of them. And I know the arctic elves are pretty self-explanitory, but where are they mentioned? (Let me guess, Race of Faerun?)
Baptor 04-07-07, 09:52 AM	Aegis; Weren't the Sun, Moon, and Wood elves in the 1ed of Forgotten Realms? I've got my old books somewhere here and I am pretty sure in the good ole days the subraces were still around, even if no one used them.
boards 04-07-07, 06:02 PM	Wasn't there an elven tree back in one of the 2nd edn books that claimed that all of Faeruns elves were offshoots of exploring High Elves of Dungeons and Dragons? Not quite sure how they made that work with all of the other subraces who were created as they are.:confused:
Lord Karsus 04-07-07, 06:03 PM	Way too many subraces in the realms. It used to be so simple. But there's no sense in longing for the good ole days. What are the Marel Elves? I kid you not, I've never heard of them. And I know the arctic elves are pretty self-explanitory, but where are they mentioned? (Let me guess, Race of Faerun?) -The more the merrier I say, as long as they are warranted, and actually make sense within the setting. Anyway, Marel are mentioned in (I believe) in Sea of Fallen Stars, and Mystery of the Moonsea. Basically, they are a "Drow" version of Aquatic Elves. Arctic Elves are never actually mentioned, but they are alluded to multiple times, such as in Demihuman Deities, since one of Lolth's aliases was taken from the Arctic Elves deity. Their actual D&D stats can be found in...Frostburn. A few individuals (like the Feyri) a race do not make. And hybrids are not a race eitheir, but hybrids. -Fey'ri have the capacity to reproduce, and create more Fey'ri. That constitutes a race. Just because their numbers are (currently) low doesn't mean that they are not their own race. Same thing with any other Elves from that list that you don't like. If they can reproduce, and propogate the species, then it is a race. Though, for me, these cultural differences aren't enough to completely justify significant differences in racial stats. -I don't think there is anything to justify two distinct subraces either. In my mind, and all work that I do, Wild Elves are just Wood Elves (Green Elves) who have resorted to savagery, and have become "feral". Wood Elves are not a new species, but are considered so by Human scholars, who are wrong.
Stigger 04-07-07, 06:19 PM	Dunno... Races of Faerun pretty directly indicated that Wood Elves came about from moon elven/gold elven/green (wild) elven intermingling that sprouted from displaced populations after the Crown Wars, the first truly native Faerunian subrace to exist. Looking over their entries in RoF, the differences seem very distinct to me, at least as different as between the other subraces.
Lord Karsus 04-07-07, 06:25 PM	Dunno... Races of Faerun pretty directly indicated that Wood Elves came about from moon elven/gold elven/green (wild) elven intermingling that sprouted from displaced populations after the Crown Wars, the first truly native Faerunian subrace to exist. Looking over their entries in RoF, the differences seem very distinct to me, at least as different as between the other subraces. -It is also established canon, though, that there were native Faerūnian Elves who existed before the first migration of the Avariel and the Lythari, and way before the Sun and Moon Elves. Thus, Wood Elves. That's my take, anyway. They were similar enough to the Green Elves who migrated to Toril, and intermingled with them, tying in the interbreeding thing.
Stigger 04-07-07, 06:27 PM	Which obviously got flushed down the toilet once RoF got published... welcome to the New World. ;)
Lord Karsus 04-07-07, 06:37 PM	Which obviously got flushed down the toilet once RoF got published... welcome to the New World. ;) -Yeah, that happened to a lot of stuff, including, for the most part, the New World (Maztica). -That's one of the troubles of trying to juggle 2e and 3e stuff. It's often hard to find a "middle ground", or a solution, or whatever, that makes sense, and stays true to old lore, and "new" lore.
Stigger 04-07-07, 06:40 PM	Well, you could look at it terms of the Elder Races being the only truly native inhabitants, which definitely takes the elves out of the picture as being a truly native race.
Lord Karsus 04-07-07, 06:41 PM	Well, you could look at it terms of the Elder Races being the only truly native inhabitants, which definitely takes the elves out of the picture as being a truly native race. -Well, some of the lists of who the Creator Races were include Elves. Some do and some don't. ;) -Theoretically, though Wood Elves could have appeared very long ago, and been native to Toril when the other Elves arrived, but not actually natives, as in they "grew up" there. It should be easy enough to figure out, when enough thought and effort is put into it. Ask that wife of yours- she seems to have good ideas at a fairly high and consistent rate. ;)
Stigger 04-07-07, 06:42 PM	Well, you can't blame me for trying to make some sense of this mess at least. :D
Lord Karsus 04-07-07, 06:48 PM	-I know, I know. We did the best we could. ;)
Old Sage 04-07-07, 08:44 PM	Anyway, Marel are mentioned in (I believe) in Sea of Fallen Stars, and Mystery of the Moonsea. Basically, they are a "Drow" version of Aquatic Elves.The Marel were detailed in the 2e supplement -- The Moonsea. The sea elves call themselves the Marel and they are evil as evil can be. Some mariners call them "sea drow" although they are not drow at all - they are proper sea elves. They are said to worship Umberlee and the sunken ruins of Northkeep are part of their territory. There are two gates in their city that lead to the Plane of Water and the Abyss respectively. They don't ally with other evil sea races.
Lord Karsus 04-07-07, 08:52 PM	The Marel were detailed in the 2e supplement -- The Moonsea. -Pah. I was combining 2e with 3e.
Stigger 04-08-07, 01:50 AM	Thought those were actually sahuagin or something that just looked like sea elves... or maybe I'm thinking of something else along the same lines... or possibly just hallucinating again...
Aegis_Chiron 04-08-07, 03:13 AM	Aegis; Weren't the Sun, Moon, and Wood elves in the 1ed of Forgotten Realms? I've got my old books somewhere here and I am pretty sure in the good ole days the subraces were still around, even if no one used them. Oh I freely admit that there werew subraces,and I even used them (2e moon elf crusader!!), but there were only 5 (moon, gold, wild, aquatic, drow). I was happy with them.... But that's beside the point. The sea elves call themselves the Marel and they are evil as evil can be. Some mariners call them "sea drow" although they are not drow at all - they are proper sea elves. They are said to worship Umberlee and the sunken ruins of Northkeep are part of their territory. There are two gates in their city that lead to the Plane of Water and the Abyss respectively. They don't ally with other evil sea races. Moonsea, huh? I'll have to look for that one....thanks for the info guys. Thought those were actually sahuagin or something that just looked like sea elves... or maybe I'm thinking of something else along the same lines... or possibly just hallucinating again... I think you're thinking of the Malenti. They're the rare sahuagin who are born looking like aquatic elves. They usually don't live long, but those who do make excellent spies among the hated elven communities.
Stigger 04-08-07, 07:28 AM	Malenti, those are the ones I was thinking of, thanks Aegis. Come to think of it, I have Moonsea sitting on the shelf and could just look it up there... but as I have very little interest in the aquatic settings of the Realms really, it never sticks in my head.
ElberethSilverleaf 04-08-07, 09:12 PM	If you read the OP's post it appears that he/she may be confusing the Grey and high elves of D&D and Greyhawk with the Gold, Silver, Copper etc elves of Faerun... He mentioned "high" and "Grey", which are specific to Greyhawk. He also has a reference to the MM, which also makes me think he may be confusing the "standard" elves with those of Faerun.... Just a thought....
Lord Karsus 04-08-07, 11:07 PM	If you read the OP's post it appears that he/she may be confusing the Grey and high elves of D&D and Greyhawk with the Gold, Silver, Copper etc elves of Faerun... He mentioned "high" and "Grey", which are specific to Greyhawk. He also has a reference to the MM, which also makes me think he may be confusing the "standard" elves with those of Faerun.... Just a thought.... -Which is why a list of Faerūnian Elves was provided.
Zaistars69 04-09-07, 11:07 AM	If you read the OP's post it appears that he/she may be confusing the Grey and high elves of D&D and Greyhawk with the Gold, Silver, Copper etc elves of Faerun... He mentioned "high" and "Grey", which are specific to Greyhawk. He also has a reference to the MM, which also makes me think he may be confusing the "standard" elves with those of Faerun.... Just a thought.... I wasn't confusing the different elves I was just trying to understand the correlation between the different kinds of elves. Apparently there isn't one. Thanks for the info everyone, now I get to sound reasonably intelligent when I talk about the different elves. Makes me glad I decided to limit the elves in my eberron game to just the high elf. Statistically anyway.
The Ubbergeek 04-09-07, 02:10 PM	I wasn't confusing the different elves I was just trying to understand the correlation between the different kinds of elves. Apparently there isn't one. Thanks for the info everyone, now I get to sound reasonably intelligent when I talk about the different elves. Makes me glad I decided to limit the elves in my eberron game to just the high elf. Statistically anyway. The drow exist too in Eberron (but they are a closely related but different race to elves, and not unlike pre-Descent Drow).
GothicDan 04-09-07, 02:58 PM	I'm into the different subraces created directly by the Seldarine (so each would have a 'chosen child race' sort of); but those without divine genesis (Wild Elf, Star Elf) aren't my cup of tea. This obviously doesn't suit Eberron's style, since overt divine interaction (or inferences of it) aren't supposed to be in the forefront of the setting. However, for a more traditional fantasy setting, it's perfectly acceptable.
Zaistars69 04-09-07, 04:06 PM	The drow exist too in Eberron (but they are a closely related but different race to elves, and not unlike pre-Descent Drow). yea when I said elves I meant those with no level adjustment. Forgot to mention that. I do the same with dwarves, halflings, etc. so I do have deep dwarves, drow, and the sverf
The Ubbergeek 04-09-07, 09:41 PM	I'm into the different subraces created directly by the Seldarine (so each would have a 'chosen child race' sort of); but those without divine genesis (Wild Elf, Star Elf) aren't my cup of tea. This obviously doesn't suit Eberron's style, since overt divine interaction (or inferences of it) aren't supposed to be in the forefront of the setting. However, for a more traditional fantasy setting, it's perfectly acceptable. Why elves not created by the gods are 'uninteresting'? Shouldn't the only important factor be the race in itself? ... Sverf? o.o
GothicDan 04-09-07, 09:43 PM	The genesis of a race is part of a race itself, just like evolution in itself is interesting. And, that being said, I said they weren't my cup of tea, in so far as I don't think they should be added to the mix of other subraces which were all specifically crafted by divinities. I know it's very hard for some people on these boards to understand (not saying you are, Ubber), but just because I think something is 'cool,' doesn't mean I would include it in every campaign setting.
BrennonGoldeye 04-09-07, 09:44 PM	Why elves not created by the gods are 'uninteresting'? Shouldn't the only important factor be the race in itself? ... Sverf? o.o I agree. I find a race that actually "evolved" along with it's Gods more alive and realistic than one that was poofed into the world by divine whim. :)
Lord Karsus 04-09-07, 09:57 PM	I know it's very hard for some people on these boards to understand (not saying you are, Ubber), but just because I think something is 'cool,' doesn't mean I would include it in every campaign setting. -Case in point, the Shadow Weave.
Zevox 04-09-07, 09:58 PM	Are the sun elves the same as the Grey elves just as the moon elves are the same as the high elves? If I remember right all of the other elven types have the same racial ability adjustments and such as the ones in the MM just with different names. The aquatic elf (appears in the races of Faerun) has the same racial adj as the ones in the SRD and MM. It seems like the newer material should supersede the old 3.0 stuff unless I'm missing a 3.5 FR book (which is easily possible). Basically, to answer your question outright rather than making you sift through all that, no, Sun Elves are not the same as the MM's Grey Elves. Statistically, the lack that race's -2str and +2dex. In lore, their society and appearance is totally different. In the Realms, "Grey Elf" is an insult Sun Elves use to refer to Moon Elves, and thats it. Zevox
BrennonGoldeye 04-09-07, 10:01 PM	just because I think something is 'cool,' doesn't mean I would include it in every campaign setting. True true.:)
GothicDan 04-10-07, 12:49 AM	I agree. I find a race that actually "evolved" along with it's Gods more alive and realistic than one that was poofed into the world by divine whim. More realistic in respect to what, though? The intrinsic, internal mechanics of Faerun would indicate that, for FAERUN, this is UNREALISTIC, in fact. (And this is coming from the guy who is talking on and off with a bio major friend specializing in evolution to speculate on alternate forms of intelligent evolution for my own world.) It's cool; just not very consistent.
Stigger 04-10-07, 01:11 AM	Well, humans seem to have evolved just a bit throughout Faerun's history... don't see why elves can't evolve as well, particularly with that chaotic streak running through them... if they were a static species, they'd be far more lawful, I would think.
GothicDan 04-10-07, 01:13 AM	Humans are not Elves...? That's like saying, "Birds have developed wings, so I can't see why rhinos haven't." Humans were not divine-created as far as we know, and behave under an entirely different set of empirical 'genetics' (if one could even use such terminology in Faerun). I'm talking, specifically, about evolution as espoused by biology (Darwin's Origin of the Species). Nothing more than that. Alignment is hardly directly related to evolution (well, it may be, in some arcane formula, but that's an entirely different discussion...). Evolution is not merely change, remember. It's a completely random genetic difference in a species that COINCIDENTALLY leads to that species being more likely to live longer, and thus, reproduce, and eventually, perhaps, become the species carrying the most dominant gene pool. Evolution is entirely dependent on random mutation (not purposeful), the environment, and propagation.
Stigger 04-10-07, 01:52 AM	As far as I'm aware, the origins of humanity have never been explained. Everything other major race in the Realms seems to spring from divine origin, I can't fathom why that wouldn't include humanity. I can see where that wasn't included to stave off a firestorm of religious hysteria over the matter, but if everything else has that origin, I think its reasonable to assume that humans have it as well, even if its not detailed. Thematically, the idea fits better with the Realms than saying that humans are one of the only, if not the only, 'purely biological' intelligent races out there. As to alignment relating to evolution, that's coming from the idea that Corellon created them out of his own blood, he's chaotic, they've developed into many different sub-species with help from that chaotic blood. That chaos puts an impetus of change and variation into them that a lot of other races seem to lack, at least to the degree that elves do. I'd say that the existance of Avariel and Sea Elves, to name but two radically different sub species, are a pretty good indicator of that inherent chaos. Sure a lot of those sub-species are the 'children' of various members of the Seldarine, and reflect that patronage, but the changes wrought in them wouldn't be possible without that chaos of Corellon's blood infusing them in the first place is essentially my point. And that chaos would also, in my view of the matter, make sure that the elven mindset and culture would evolve and change over time in more distinct ways than a lot of other races, despite those changes taking place over longer periods of time. Counterpoint them with dwarves, who culturally seem to be remarkably monolithic, and even to some extent static in a sense, and perhaps the point comes across a bit better.
GothicDan 04-10-07, 01:59 AM	As far as I'm aware, the origins of humanity have never been explained. Everything other major race in the Realms seems to spring from divine origin, I can't fathom why that wouldn't include humanity. I can see where that wasn't included to stave off a firestorm of religious hysteria over the matter, but if everything else has that origin, I think its reasonable to assume that humans have it as well, even if its not detailed. Thematically, the idea fits better with the Realms than saying that humans are one of the only, if not the only, 'purely biological' intelligent races out there. The fact that humans DO evolve would infer that they... Well, evolved. And were not created by deities. Elves were explicitely stated to not have evolved, and to have been created by Corellon (and altered by other deities, in some cases). As to alignment relating to evolution, that's coming from the idea that Corellon created them out of his own blood, he's chaotic, they've developed into many different sub-species with help from that chaotic blood. No, they haven't. It was the direct actions of deities that changed their subspecies (Sehanine -> Moon Elves, Aerdrie -> Avariels, and so on). That chaos puts an impetus of change and variation into them that a lot of other races seem to lack, at least to the degree that elves do. I'd say that the existance of Avariel and Sea Elves, to name but two radically different sub species, are a pretty good indicator of that inherent chaos. Sure a lot of those sub-species are the 'children' of various members of the Seldarine, and reflect that patronage, but the changes wrought in them wouldn't be possible without that chaos of Corellon's blood infusing them in the first place is essentially my point. And that chaos would also, in my view of the matter, make sure that the elven mindset and culture would evolve and change over time in more distinct ways than a lot of other races, despite those changes taking place over longer periods of time. Chaos and change does NOT mean evolution, again. Evolution only occurs under very specific circumstances. Corellon made them as they are, and they have the ability to magically change themselves and their environment with great power, which, if anything, would halt the process of evolution (even if they could). Notice how they fight against overt environmental changes so hard, and how there are specific Elven High Magic rituals to create their Utopian environments (such as the forest-making one). Magic aimed at making static, Utopian environments in which Elves thrive would indicate evolution NOT affecting them as normal - the same way that humans really aren't evolving any more in the classically biological definition any more, because we are controlling our environments so much. In the modern day and age, beyond massive genetic mishaps or physical ailments, random physical flukes of DNA really don't affect one's ability to produce offspring. And that's the core of evolution. Evolution only expresses itself through death and life, NOT change in a given race. Counterpoint them with dwarves, who culturally seem to be remarkably monolithic, and even to some extent static in a sense, and perhaps the point comes across a bit better. We have no direct evidence pointing at how they evolve (if they do at all), but at the very least we have cases of Gold Dwarves, Shield Dwarves, Jungle Dwarves, Arctic Dwarves, Urdiniir (sp? - divine created), Derro, and Duergar. So the idea that alignment somehow excludes new subraces forming from magical or divine interaction really doesn't hold. And there's nothing in the Complete Book of Dwarves or Dwarves Deep that I know of that explicitely stated, "Dwarves did not evolve," as the Complete Book of Elves did about Elves.
Stigger 04-10-07, 02:08 AM	I'd be skeptical about the Complete Book of Elves and its actual application to the elves of Faerun personally... to be honest the whole 2e Complete Book of... line horridly reeked of humanocentric drivel to me. Besides which, its a view that Races of the Wild seems to have done away with, unless I missed something, so being the most current, its the view I'm tending to go by. By the by, I'm not speaking of evolution in a strictly scientific sense, since I'm not conversant enough with anything other than the basics of the theory to hold a truly coherent discussion of them. Think of it less as a scientific term there, and more of a 'for lack of a better word' way.
velvetlinedbox 04-10-07, 02:35 AM	Wow that was confusing. I think I just saw how much more reading I need to do. What Gods created what subraces?
boards 04-10-07, 04:42 AM	An evolutioanry begining for humans is a bit hard to swallow in Fearun. According to Ed most demi-human sages believe that Toril is about 70,000-80,000 years old. This is NOT enough time for humans to have fully evolved without outside help. You could make the argument that they dont know what they are doing, but they do have access to Gods and powerful outsiders who have been alive for as long as the planet has.
The Ubbergeek 04-10-07, 07:25 AM	Faerunian Intelligent Design? Not sure if I'd smile, laugh, groan there....
Stigger 04-10-07, 07:35 AM	Heh, yeah... ID rears its ugly head. Not quite so appalling though, since Faerun does have demonstrable divine presence, even if only fictionally. :D
BrennonGoldeye 04-10-07, 03:51 PM	Dan, I know you don't really like them, but the wood elves of the realms show elven evolution. Since their lifespans are so much longer I would say they evolve even fasterthan humans. And I would like to also add that it is purposeful. All evolution is. The purpose is survival. Among intelligent species that includes being able to get along with others and the ability to learn. Since we pick our partners(at least those of us lucky enough to not be living in the 9th century part of the world) we take purpose at our own evolution. Still, I once again agree that just because something is cool doesn't mean it has to be used.;)
endowhin 04-10-07, 04:16 PM	Going back to the original poster, perhaps your info was from a core source or older edition. Grey elves and high elves are two sub-races in Greyhawk and 1st edition. A Grey elf in GH is equates roughly to a Sun/Gold Elf in Faerun and a high elf is the std PHB elf aka Moon/Silver elf. Hope that helps, -Endowhin
GothicDan 04-10-07, 04:57 PM	Dan, I know you don't really like them, but the wood elves of the realms show elven evolution. Since their lifespans are so much longer I would say they evolve even fasterthan humans. And I would like to also add that it is purposeful. All evolution is. The purpose is survival. Among intelligent species that includes being able to get along with others and the ability to learn. Since we pick our partners(at least those of us lucky enough to not be living in the 9th century part of the world) we take purpose at our own evolution. Still, I once again agree that just because something is cool doesn't mean it has to be used. You do realize that's perhaps the biggest misconception as to the definition of evolution, right? Have you read 'Origin of the Species'? I am speaking of Darwinian, genetic evolution, not social or metaphorical evolution. Evolution, by definition, requires interaction with the environment, and random genetic mutations. Anything that WE personally do to change the environment in which we live, and purposefully changing ourselves to work better in it, exists beyond the classical definition of biological evolution.
BrennonGoldeye 04-10-07, 06:18 PM	Mmmhmm, know that. Just have started to look beyond that. When I say evolution I mean evolution. Not Darwin's take. It's flawed in several ways(such as discounting intelligence). And nigh useless on a world with magic and Gods. Even he would admit that. I thought we were speaking of evolution in the FR, where all those mutations(a mutation is a mutation, no matter what caused it)seem to come at a much quicker pace.;) Ok, hubby is out of the shower so I am off for some birthday steak. SWLL all. GBE
Lord Karsus 04-10-07, 07:33 PM	What Gods created what subraces? Corellon Larethian: Creator of All Elves Aerdrie Faenya: Patroness of the Avariel Deep Sashelas: Patron of the Aquatic Elves Lolth: Patroness of the Drow Fenmarel Mestarine: Patron of the Wild Elves Sehanine Moonbow/Angharradh: Patroness of the Moon Elves Dan, I know you don't really like them, but the wood elves of the realms show elven evolution. -Not really. In fact, Wood Elves show just the opposite, actually. Wood Elves existed as they exist now before Durothil, Sharlario Moonflower, and the refugees of Tintageer arrived in Realmspace, over 20,000 years ago. I don't know about you, but existing in the very same way, in both mental and physical capabilities, proves very much to be the non-existence of any sort of evolution. Ok, hubby is out of the shower so I am off for some birthday steak. SWLL all. GBE -Happy birthday. Enjoy that birthday steak. Going back to the original poster, perhaps your info was from a core source or older edition. Grey elves and high elves are two sub-races in Greyhawk and 1st edition. A Grey elf in GH is equates roughly to a Sun/Gold Elf in Faerun and a high elf is the std PHB elf aka Moon/Silver elf. Hope that helps, -Endowhin -Incorrect. If everything is boiled down to the LCD, High Elves equate to Sun Elves, while Grey Elves equate to Moon Elves.
BrennonGoldeye 04-10-07, 09:45 PM	-Not really. In fact, Wood Elves show just the opposite, actually. Wood Elves existed as they exist now before Durothil, Sharlario Moonflower, and the refugees of Tintageer arrived in Realmspace, over 20,000 years ago. I don't know about you, but existing in the very same way, in both mental and physical capabilities, proves very much to be the non-existence of any sort of evolution. Umm, Boss. Wood elves, not wild. That kinda flips that around basaackwards. ;)
Lord Karsus 04-10-07, 11:35 PM	Umm, Boss. Wood elves, not wild. That kinda flips that around basaackwards. ;) -Wood Elves and Wild Elves are the same thing. It's actually a very big misconception that they are different. Some doofus armchair anthropologist from Waterdeep, who is, no doubt, a celebrity in his circles, can be attributed to that mistake.
GothicDan 04-10-07, 11:59 PM	Mmmhmm, know that. Just have started to look beyond that. When I say evolution I mean evolution. Not Darwin's take. It's flawed in several ways(such as discounting intelligence). And nigh useless on a world with magic and Gods. Even he would admit that. I thought we were speaking of evolution in the FR, where all those mutations(a mutation is a mutation, no matter what caused it)seem to come at a much quicker pace. Then that's not at all the evolution me and LK have been talking about; and it's not at all applicable to the biological terminology. That's just 'change.' :)
Stigger 04-11-07, 01:42 AM	Unfortunately, canon wise, Races of Faerun does not agree with you on the Wood Elf point there LK. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 04-11-07, 07:50 AM	-Wood Elves and Wild Elves are the same thing. It's actually a very big misconception that they are different. Some doofus armchair anthropologist from Waterdeep, who is, no doubt, a celebrity in his circles, can be attributed to that mistake. Um, once again, all kinds of no. Come on now LK. Green elves=Wild Elves, Copper elves=Wood elves. The wood taught ole Nether his first spells for Mystra's sake. Eaerlann ring a bell? Then that's not at all the evolution me and LK have been talking about; and it's not at all applicable to the biological terminology. That's just 'change.' OK, I can go along with that. Let me rephrase. Outside forces(massive wars, epic magic, pisssy demons) convinced many of the green, gold, and silver(with just a tinch of others thrown in) survivors to return to a more woodsy lifestyle. They were soon an entire subrace that had "changed", not only in their outward appearance but stats as well. There, hows that?:)
Stigger 04-11-07, 08:25 AM	Seems like too much semantics to me... evolve is still a valid word there as far as I'm concerned, even if not in a scientific context... kinda hard to speak about evolution of mythical/fictional beings in the first place afterall. :P
BrennonGoldeye 04-11-07, 08:36 AM	Seems like too much semantics to me... evolve is still a valid word there as far as I'm concerned, even if not in a scientific context... kinda hard to speak about evolution of mythical/fictional beings in the first place afterall. :P Umhm. But I have never had a problem with changing my sentence structure to make things more precise. How's that coffee Stigger? ;)
Stigger 04-11-07, 08:43 AM	Feh, I just enjoy poking Dan with sticks sometimes. :P And strangely, had to transmute it into tea though, not supposed to be drinking milk right now, kinda forgot about that for a minute... :(
GothicDan 04-11-07, 09:28 AM	OK, I can go along with that. Let me rephrase. Outside forces(massive wars, epic magic, pisssy demons) convinced many of the green, gold, and silver(with just a tinch of others thrown in) survivors to return to a more woodsy lifestyle. They were soon an entire subrace that had "changed", not only in their outward appearance but stats as well. There, hows that? You do realize that's the point I'm largely arguing that makes no sense, right? :p You can't prove a point by citing the point itself! But at least change IS very different from evolution, and you're using it more correctly. The problem is there's no citation of actual magical rituals, short or long term, or divine interaction, which would have given the actual impetus for the new subrace, which every other subrace had that came before. That was in large part a restriction on the Elven subraces, and why having a Platinum Elf and a Cadburry Bunny Elf and a Spork Elf wouldn't have made sense: Elves don't 'evolve,' so there wouldn't be reasons for dozens of subspecies to exist. But, well, that's been thrown out the window. Now we have even MORE subraces of Elves, and nothing restricting there being a hundred more (which, evolutionary-wise, would be far more probable than if they only were created through magical effects).
GothicDan 04-11-07, 09:31 AM	Seems like too much semantics to me... evolve is still a valid word there as far as I'm concerned, even if not in a scientific context... kinda hard to speak about evolution of mythical/fictional beings in the first place afterall. Semantics affecting conversation? UNPOSSIBLE!!!!!11one ;) Scientific evolution is different enough than the laymen's usage for it that the two cannot be interchanged... And this reminds me of why I don't read pop physics books or listen to philosophers trying to apply quantum mechanics or the like!
Stigger 04-11-07, 09:31 AM	Except for that tiny detail of being pretty much what Races of Faerun states on the matter... like it or not, that's still the official explanation. By the by, I'm not a big fan of semantics simply for the sake of semantics. :P
BrennonGoldeye 04-11-07, 09:43 AM	You do realize that's the point I'm largely arguing that makes no sense, right? :p You can't prove a point by citing the point itself! But at least change IS very different from evolution, and you're using it more correctly. The problem is there's no citation of actual magical rituals, short or long term, or divine interaction, which would have given the actual impetus for the new subrace, which every other subrace had that came before. That was in large part a restriction on the Elven subraces, and why having a Platinum Elf and a Cadburry Bunny Elf and a Spork Elf wouldn't have made sense: Elves don't 'evolve,' so there wouldn't be reasons for dozens of subspecies to exist. But, well, that's been thrown out the window. Now we have even MORE subraces of Elves, and nothing restricting there being a hundred more (which, evolutionary-wise, would be far more probable than if they only were created through magical effects). You do realize that's the point I'm largely arguing that makes no sense, right? :p You can't prove a point by citing the point itself! Actually I was trying to point out the sillyness of your disdain of sub-races who don't have some Divine writ allowing them to exist, and trying to give light to the fact that new God's form when new people arise. Copper copper copper copper. Been around since the last CW. Taught Netheril their first spells. Not present when the elves came from other worlds. FAERUNIAN ELVES! Evolved there. Grew there. Argh..... If you want your elves above and seperate from the rest of the multiverse then that explains quite a bit. Ah well, to each his own. I myself seem to have fallen in with the rest of the worlds where elves evolve(but were not "born") just like the rest. Krynn is quite a nice place, enjoy yourself.;)
Stigger 04-11-07, 09:47 AM	Not being much of a formal academic, you're just gonna have to suffer through the laymen thing Dan, at least as far as I'm concerned. I tend to prefer social sciences over hard science anyway. :P
BrennonGoldeye 04-11-07, 09:55 AM	Scientific evolution is different enough than the laymen's usage for it that the two cannot be interchanged... And this reminds me of why I don't read pop physics books or listen to philosophers trying to apply quantum mechanics or the like! Dan, I'm sending the Finthai now..:)
Lord Karsus 04-11-07, 11:18 AM	Um, once again, all kinds of no. Come on now LK. Green elves=Wild Elves, Copper elves=Wood elves. The wood taught ole Nether his first spells for Mystra's sake. Eaerlann ring a bell? Unfortunately, canon wise, Races of Faerun does not agree with you on the Wood Elf point there LK. ;) -Green Elves are Wood Elves, and Wild Elves. Wild Elves are Wood Elves who have reverted to barbaric tribalism. Are savage tribes in, say, Africa, the Amazon, or the Polynesian Islands Humans, like we are, or are they something else? There is nothing genetically that seperates the two. What does differentiate them is their socity. Second edition agreed with that notion, and personally, it is the only thing that makes sense, when you really sit down and think about it. -Third Edition also has said that any deities that did not appear on a small list did not exist in Faerūn, contrary to twenty years of previous information, so most statements that are "controversial" need to be taken with a grain of salt. There has been no sensible retcon to say that Wild Elves and Wood Elves are two seperate, completely different things, so as far as I am concerned, they aren't.
Khaelieth 04-11-07, 12:58 PM	Eh-hem... *Clears throat* This is quoted from Races of Faerūn, page 45. These elves [Wood elves] (mostly moon, sun and green elves), vowed never again to let internal strife tear their kind apart, retreating to the deepest woodlands to seek shelter from the madnesss of the world. Unlike green elves, these self-imposed exiles did not slip into barbarism. Rather, they formed tightly knit societies that stayed in touch with other like-minded elven communities hidden away in the forest. [...] and became a new subrace of elves apart from their kin: the wood elves. Wood elves are an amalgam of moon, sun and wild elves. They definetly don't get their -2 from us Gold Elves!
The Ubbergeek 04-11-07, 12:59 PM	Wild elves (Grugash, Kaganesti) are a valid subraces, though. At least in Dragonlance and Greyhawk. I'd allow them in FR, albeit perhaps in very, very remote places and the unexplored places, like Anchorome at the north of Maztica.
GothicDan 04-11-07, 01:11 PM	Except for that tiny detail of being pretty much what Races of Faerun states on the matter... like it or not, that's still the official explanation. By the by, I'm not a big fan of semantics simply for the sake of semantics. Obviously not, since you seem to be entirely missing my semantics in explaining *why I don't like what Races of Faerun states*, NOT that it's not canon! That was my point in the first place.
The Ubbergeek 04-11-07, 05:47 PM	Obviously not, since you seem to be entirely missing my semantics in explaining *why I don't like what Races of Faerun states*, NOT that it's not canon! That was my point in the first place. Every book WOTC put is canon unless specificied otehrwise.
zerodeviere 04-15-07, 09:02 PM	WHAT?!?! You both are confusing me. Unless I'm mistaken: Sun Elves are the same as High Elves, Gold Elves. And Moon Elves are the same as Grey Elves. And Green Elves are the same as Wood Elves. And Brown Elves are the same as Wild Elves. Am I wrong??? Because I'm pretty sure I'm correct. I believe that you are correct cause the slang for moon elf that is considered bad taste is grey elf its like calling a Black person the N word. dont have any idea why it is so bad but its that way in Elves of Evermeet.
zerodeviere 04-15-07, 09:05 PM	Wild elves (Grugash, Kaganesti) are a valid subraces, though. At least in Dragonlance and Greyhawk. I'd allow them in FR, albeit perhaps in very, very remote places and the unexplored places, like Anchorome at the north of Maztica. They have them if FR to they were the first elves sent to Evermeet once it was created. Source - Elves of Evermeet
Lord Karsus 04-16-07, 12:05 AM	I believe that you are correct cause the slang for moon elf that is considered bad taste is grey elf its like calling a Black person the N word. dont have any idea why it is so bad but its that way in Elves of Evermeet. -Moon Elves are also known as Silver Elves. By calling them Gray Elves, you are "diminishing" them. Which is a...more "noble" color, silver or gray? Silver invokes more powerful images than dull, old gray.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 08:27 AM	Every book WOTC put is canon unless specificied otehrwise. Yes. You can state the obvious, which again, does not address my point at all. Congratulations, captain.
Stigger 04-16-07, 08:34 AM	But alas the point is moot in a lot of respects, given that "official" sources we have to go on 'disprove' it... though I do see what you're saying. Don't agree with your interpretation in the slightest really, but I do see your point.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 08:39 AM	Just because canon is out on something doesn't mean that the point is moot at all, otherwise these fora as methods of opinion-based discussion would be utterly superfluous. (Daniel's first class was cancelled today due to massive rain.) My point, for those who missed it before: I am stating WHY I don't LIKE what's stated in RoF, NOT that it's not canon. So thanks for making me think I'm banging my head into a brick wall, people. I should expect that by now. ;)
Stigger 04-16-07, 08:43 AM	Surely you can't possibly expect to be able to argue anything that's non-canon that we can't scurry off to disprove with a handy quote or two from the relavant source book...
GothicDan 04-16-07, 08:49 AM	If those sourcebooks specifically are biased towards the issue I'm addressing, then no, you can't. Debate doesn't work like that. ;) The reason why I don't like it is that in PAST sources we've never seen Elves portrayed like this before; so unless you can bring up some credible PAST sources that contradict my opinion, references to RoF and the like are nontopical. Unless you do that, then we're arguing completely different topics. Just sayin'.
Stigger 04-16-07, 08:59 AM	You know, in all honesty, I tended to avoid elven lore in 2e for the most part because the whole level cap thing aggravated my nerves to no end, so I tend to be pretty dismissive of a lot of assumptions that were made about them. Just seemed really slanted towards a very "humans are superior point of view" and felt like it was fishing for reasons as to why that was the case. Given the sheer volume of changes to most races that 3e came up with, I tend to feel fairly well vindicated in that opinion. Kinda hard to debate an opinion though, particularly when its essentially based on very different perceptions of the material.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 09:10 AM	Yeah. It's really amusing that you think that in general, actually, considering almost everyone says that Elven lore from 2E made them out to be uber and so much better than humans in every way. I think the current ones are boring and bland, and resemble little more than humans that look a little different.
Stigger 04-16-07, 09:22 AM	Strange the way we interpret things. If it makes you feel any better, I liked the art portraying elves a whole lot more in 2e than in 3e. They look... oddly misshapen in 3e to me for some reason. Preferred the long and graceful look they had before.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 09:30 AM	Well, it's not entirely strange... I liked demihuman level limits as a rule, because it helped to highlight how, being magical creatures, they had specific traits 'built into them,' whereas humans did not. Often, humans were either created SPECIFICALLY to have a sort of balance/ultimate potential, or they evolved. Again, I liked it as a general rule that helped to back up the lore of the races, but one that could be discarded if necessary. The more rules that back up the lore, the better; the more that do not, the worse. In my never-humble opinion, of course!
Stigger 04-16-07, 09:37 AM	Hard for me to fathom why a innately magical being, such as an elf was supposed to be, capped out as a wizard @ level 17 (high mages aside) when a human could reach a theoretically unlimited level. Hich Level Campaigns only reinforced that idea for me. I can't say I was ever a fan of the slow advancement concept. Always struck me as some artificial ruleset to suggest how humans could keep pace with an incredibly long lived race that should have been beating them at every turn in the name of some artificial sense of balance. But then, I hate the idea of balance in most respects, and I'm probably very weird in that respect.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 09:40 AM	I hate the idea of balance too, which is why I dislike a lot of 3E - which espouses balance above aspects of previous editions of D&D, oddly enough. And my favorite Elves are those from Faerun, where the level cap really didn't apply, even in 2E... Remember, the rules were made for core races. Even if they were largely made as artifacts of balance, they still helped mold the initial cultures of the various races in core.
Stigger 04-16-07, 09:45 AM	The thing I like most about 3e is the ability to eliminate a lot of balance officially and apply your own interpretations to things without the need to virtually rewrite the rule books with house rules. Its open to a lot more interpretation and play styles comparatively, at least that's been my experience with it, particularly true since the ELH came out. And yes, I know the realms never really enforced level caps, but I could always feel them lurking in the background, subtly influencing things. Probably more about perception than anything else though.
The Ubbergeek 04-16-07, 11:08 AM	I like the balance and streamlining - no longer than mish-mash of local exceptions and complicated rules ofr special cases.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 12:45 PM	I like complicated things when they more accurately portray something. Physicists love simplicity, but that doesn't mean you sacrifice idiosycrasy for it. Stigger: The thing I like most about 3e is the ability to eliminate a lot of balance officially and apply your own interpretations to things without the need to virtually rewrite the rule books with house rules. Its open to a lot more interpretation and play styles comparatively, at least that's been my experience with it, particularly true since the ELH came out. Interesting. I tried to make several worlds in 3E-style, and I ended up tossing the system because it didn't represent the cultures and magical systems as I wanted them to - so basically, in my experience, I feel the opposite. When designing my own worlds, I usually end up falling back on a system based on old WoD.
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 01:10 PM	Yeah. It's really amusing that you think that in general, actually, considering almost everyone says that Elven lore from 2E made them out to be uber and so much better than humans in every way. I must be in the minority:) I never got that impression from 2e lore, save for in a few rare specific circumstances, and of course such instances invariably involved high magic gone awry. where the level cap really didn't apply, even in 2E... Where there any methods other than becoming a high mage to bypass the level cap?
GothicDan 04-16-07, 01:25 PM	I must be in the minority I never got that impression from 2e lore, save for in a few rare specific circumstances, and of course such instances invariably involved high magic gone awry. It had to do a lot with things like High Magic, Bladesingers, and various things in the CBoE. :)
Snow Savant 04-16-07, 01:45 PM	Another subsetting of the Elf race you can add to the pile are the environmental and elemental variants from the Unearthed Arcana book. Jungle, Desert, Arctic, & Aquatic Air, Earth, Fire, & Water Of course, anybody adding these optional Elf races to a canon-intensive Realms campaign is just asking for headaches in trying to integrate them into the existing Elf macrocosm. But hey, it's D&D 3.5 legal. :)
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 02:01 PM	It had to do a lot with things like High Magic, Bladesingers, and various things in the CBoE. :) Ahh, that might explain it. I've never read the complete book of elves. That bad/good PR? Another subsetting of the Elf race you can add to the pile are the environmental and elemental variants from the Unearthed Arcana book. * Jungle, Desert, Arctic, & Aquatic * Air, Earth, Fire, & Water Of course, anybody adding these optional Elf races to a canon-intensive Realms campaign is just asking for headaches in trying to integrate them into the existing Elf macrocosm. But hey, it's D&D 3.5 legal. I am *still* waiting for paladium elves and ultraviolet dragons, thank ye very much:D
GothicDan 04-16-07, 02:09 PM	I never really got why people disliked the CBoE so much. The Bladesinger kit was rather strong, though. Anyway, I'd apply almost all of the lore in there to Faerunian Elves (and the book goes into the specific Elven subraces of each world - which is something Races of the Wild did NOT do at all).
Stigger 04-16-07, 06:48 PM	I didn't dislike CBoE per se, I just didn't like some of the core concepts behind non-human races much to begin with. On the whole, it was a decent book with a lot of good ideas, but there was the still the whole underlying Demi-Human tag, a term which just makes my teeth hurt.
BrennonGoldeye 04-16-07, 08:37 PM	Not weird Stigger, sane. :tongue:
Lord Karsus 04-16-07, 11:01 PM	Another subsetting of the Elf race you can add to the pile are the environmental and elemental variants from the Unearthed Arcana book. Jungle, Desert, Arctic, & Aquatic Air, Earth, Fire, & Water Of course, anybody adding these optional Elf races to a canon-intensive Realms campaign is just asking for headaches in trying to integrate them into the existing Elf macrocosm. But hey, it's D&D 3.5 legal. :) -With the exception of Arctic Elves (which are ambiguous), none of those Elves exist on Faerūn.
Stigger 04-17-07, 01:22 AM	Yeah, well sanity and insanity are pretty relative things... ;)
Snow Savant 04-17-07, 11:32 AM	-With the exception of Arctic Elves (which are ambiguous), none of those Elves exist on Faerūn.Obviously. But from a D&D perspective, they are "game legal" as UA is intended to be campaign-neutral. My comment about integrating them into a canon-heavy FRCS game noted the houseruling challenges one would face.
Dremik-the-Taupe 04-25-07, 02:53 AM	Grey Elves (standard) and Gold/Sun Elves (faerun) are similar races that fill the same niche, but faerun's gold elves are stronger and less dexterous than standard grey elves. In Faerun, grey elf is an ethnic slur for moon/silver elves used by gold/sun elves, implying that they are a base metal rather than silver. In standard D & D, grey elf is a race. In faerun, its an insult.
Philalexandros 04-25-07, 09:31 AM	Hmmm, balance was being discussed, and someone brought up Palladium. I always respected that company. I like gaming developers who say "You know what? We'll just let you play whatever it is you want and assume your DM/GM will be adult enough to figure out his/her own campaign. Knock yourselves out!" No XP or such penalties there... Want to have a party where one character is a Goblin pirate and the other is a Dragon spellcaster? Go right ahead.
BrennonGoldeye 04-25-07, 09:33 AM	Hmmm, balance was being discussed, and someone brought up Palladium. I always respected that company. I like gaming developers who say "You know what? We'll just let you play whatever it is you want and assume your DM/GM will be adult enough to figure out his/her own campaign. Knock yourselves out!" No XP or such penalties there... Want to have a party where one character is a Goblin pirate and the other is a Dragon spellcaster? Go right ahead. Good company those folk. Fun is the point after all.
The Ubbergeek 04-25-07, 10:52 AM	Good company? AH! Those guys have a bad reputations, and not without reasons.
Lord Karsus 04-25-07, 10:58 AM	-The name is vaguely familiar, but I know nothing of the company? So, what the deal with them?
BrennonGoldeye 04-25-07, 02:06 PM	Oh well, reputations are like opinions. Everybody has one, and most smell bad to others.;)
The Ubbergeek 04-25-07, 02:25 PM	-The name is vaguely familiar, but I know nothing of the company? So, what the deal with them? No changes in the game whatsoever, terrible power creep, nasty PR, a megalo ceo, etc...
Lord Karsus 04-25-07, 06:36 PM	No changes in the game whatsoever, terrible power creep, nasty PR, a megalo ceo, etc... -Oh, alright. Nothing terribly unordinary, then...