Szass Tam question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Szass Tam question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dankan
04-23-08, 06:44 AM Ok i have a question concerning Szass Tam(and Red Wizards in general). Though he should have 3 schools of magic restricted he seems to be casting spells from almost all of the schools in the Haunted Lands.I think the only kind of magic i haven't seen him use is Illusion.Are there any thoughts or explanations about whay this happens in novels?(I think there are 3 feats that if u take together u can cast spells normallu from a prohibited school and tha can be found in Lost Empires of Faerun)
DMD
04-23-08, 12:03 PM One explanation is that there are feats that allow you to cast spells outside of your prohibited school as a specialist (I believe these feats are listed in Lost Empires of Faerun).

The other explanation is that the novels generally do not follow game mechanics very closely if at all.
Dankan
04-23-08, 03:10 PM I figure out that much on my own thanks.Anyone knows what else cpuld it be or any additional thought on the subject?
Jiggawha
04-24-08, 10:25 AM cause the author hasn't researched it well, or is still in 2e, it happpens in many novels, e.g. House of Serpents trilogy etc.
Chloramantis
04-24-08, 11:05 PM I doubt the author didn't do his or her research, and 2e had opposite schools of magic. So I'll go with novels don't follow game mechanics.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
04-25-08, 12:51 PM I doubt the author didn't do his or her research, and 2e had opposite schools of magic. So I'll go with novels don't follow game mechanics.

I'm not going to cast aspersions on the author, and I also haven't read the second Haunted Lands book yet. However, Red Wizards are well known to be specialist wizards, and the significant drawback of being a specialist wizards is that you cannot cast spells from every school.

If a specialist wizard like Szass Tam is written in a way that enables him to use spells of any school when he's supposed to be a Necromancer, I think that's pretty egregious, since it means he's had one of his prime weaknesses taken away. I hate godlike protagonists, but godlike villains aren't much better.
Jiggawha
04-25-08, 01:19 PM aye

I doubt the author didn't do his or her research, and 2e had opposite schools of magic. So I'll go with novels don't follow game mechanics.

as far as I remember, the only forbidden school for Szass in 2e would be the illusion
The Simbul
04-25-08, 01:35 PM In 2E and 3E D&D Szass Tam was unable to cast Enchantment and Illusion spells.

In 3.5 D&D Szass Tam is still barred from casting Enchantment and Illusion spells, but would also be required to add an additional school of magic to his list of prohibited spells.

As far as the novels are concerned, I suppose it would depend on how precisely these spells are presented in the storytelling. Unless the author is outright stating that "Szass Tam casts dominate monster", then it could very well be that some other spell effect is being used.

I have not delved into the Haunted Lands trilogy yet, so I cannot really comment on the context. At present I have little motivation to read too many FR novels for the time being, specifically when novels and adventures are simply being used to lay out the groundwork for destroying treasured parts of the Realms for 4th edition.

That said, I do not think the author should be faulted for not strictly adhering to the game rules. Not because I think that the rules should be ignored in novels (in fact my opinion is quite the contrary) but only because other more "established" authors persistently ignore, flout, or alter the rules or statistics of characters on whim, and then leave it up to the rest of the gaming community to try to rationalize the how and why.

Moreover, it is far easier to explain away the statistically improbable actions and exploits of a spellcaster in fiction than it is to explain similarly improbable actions by martial characters.

If you really need an explanation, assume that Szass Tam is just using limited wish, his ring of three wishes, or Alamanther's return to duplicate the spells in question.
Dankan
04-26-08, 04:10 AM If you really need an explanation, assume that Szass Tam is just using limited wish, his ring of three wishes, or Alamanther's return to duplicate the spells in question.[/QUOTE]

Yeah i guess that would made sense.thanks for mentioning it.As far as i'm concerned the Haunted Lands isn't a bad trilogy despite the 4E footwork tha representsand what u suggested will most likely explain how Szass casts that spells
MarkusTay63
04-26-08, 12:28 PM Mybe he has The Amulet of Mary Sue, which allows him to do things a normal person can't.

;) :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
04-27-08, 08:02 PM I have not delved into the Haunted Lands trilogy yet, so I cannot really comment on the context. At present I have little motivation to read too many FR novels for the time being, specifically when novels and adventures are simply being used to lay out the groundwork for destroying treasured parts of the Realms for 4th edition.

Emphasis mine--that is exactly how it seems to me, too.
Lord Karsus
04-28-08, 12:38 AM -If it's revelant- and I think it is- authors don't AND SHOULDN'T be forced to adhere to the Player's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and whatever other D&D sourcebooks that are relevant. At the end of the day, a novel is a novel. Authors should be allowed to have the freedom to add/subtract/modify details in their novels.
DMD
04-28-08, 12:16 PM I am enjoying the trilogy as well, however, if Szass Tam was using wishes, the author probbaly would have described him wishing for those spell effects. A wish even a simple one should be carefully worded.
Senevri
04-28-08, 05:23 PM not really. It's just "Limited Wish spell I don't have", as that's a SAFE use... and since in the novels the people aren't specifically screaming out "Fireball!" every time they cast it....
Red_Wizard
04-29-08, 10:13 AM As I recall, I don't remember him ever casting an enchantment, illusion or Abjuration at any point. That is three schools, and three banned are needed for a RW. So it doesn't seem so far fetched that he has acess to the others.

-RW
Dankan
04-30-08, 01:50 AM RW, Szass Tam did cast a spell of the enchantment school(unless i'm mistaken) when he summoned the blood fiend (Tsagoth or whatever his name was) and put a geas on him.Also since he repeatadly says that he has wards against fire, etc almost all the time on his person it only makes sence that he can cast abjurations as well, plus he seems able to cast some protective spells to ward himself against tough situations (he used a prismatic sphere, unless i'm wrong, when he approaches the commanders in the end of Unclean and i think anothe abjuration to protect himself against an entropic reaper whom he accidentaly summmoned when magic failed in Undead).Thus i would say that the only spells that i never saw him casting are illusions.
Stigger
04-30-08, 08:33 AM You could conceivably cast all of those with schools other than abjuration and enchantment. Except the prismatic... but even if that is the case, I thought the RW prestige allowed you to retain any spells in your new prohibited school that you already knew, you just couldn't add any more to your spellbook... presuming that's the case, its conceivable that he could still be using abjurative spells if he already had them.
Red_Wizard
04-30-08, 11:47 AM First, yes it is true that the RW PrC allows you to retain spells and use items of your final banned school, so that would explain any spells cast in that regard.

Most people taking Red Wizard hold off until later in their careers to progress into the PrC, as there is a fine line to be walked between power and sacrifice. Given his levels and age, it is concievable he did not take the cloth until later in life and thus still retains access to more potent Abjurative spells.

Additionally, the ToT changed how magic works, and one must still account for how they cast in previous editions. 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5 each had very different Red Wizards, so one could also speculate that he still retains abilities from previous incarnations.

This said, a lich is a potent being to begin with, and over the years I am quite sure he has found ways to either wish permanent protections on himself, or collect a significant ammount of items to defend against any but the most persistant of opponents.

As for the Ench remark, a blood fiend is an undead creature, so I doubt very much Szass would have any difficulty in controlling it with any number of spells that are not from Enchantment.

-RW

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dankan 04-23-08, 06:44 AM	Ok i have a question concerning Szass Tam(and Red Wizards in general). Though he should have 3 schools of magic restricted he seems to be casting spells from almost all of the schools in the Haunted Lands.I think the only kind of magic i haven't seen him use is Illusion.Are there any thoughts or explanations about whay this happens in novels?(I think there are 3 feats that if u take together u can cast spells normallu from a prohibited school and tha can be found in Lost Empires of Faerun)
DMD 04-23-08, 12:03 PM	One explanation is that there are feats that allow you to cast spells outside of your prohibited school as a specialist (I believe these feats are listed in Lost Empires of Faerun). The other explanation is that the novels generally do not follow game mechanics very closely if at all.
Dankan 04-23-08, 03:10 PM	I figure out that much on my own thanks.Anyone knows what else cpuld it be or any additional thought on the subject?
Jiggawha 04-24-08, 10:25 AM	cause the author hasn't researched it well, or is still in 2e, it happpens in many novels, e.g. House of Serpents trilogy etc.
Chloramantis 04-24-08, 11:05 PM	I doubt the author didn't do his or her research, and 2e had opposite schools of magic. So I'll go with novels don't follow game mechanics.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-25-08, 12:51 PM	I doubt the author didn't do his or her research, and 2e had opposite schools of magic. So I'll go with novels don't follow game mechanics. I'm not going to cast aspersions on the author, and I also haven't read the second Haunted Lands book yet. However, Red Wizards are well known to be specialist wizards, and the significant drawback of being a specialist wizards is that you cannot cast spells from every school. If a specialist wizard like Szass Tam is written in a way that enables him to use spells of any school when he's supposed to be a Necromancer, I think that's pretty egregious, since it means he's had one of his prime weaknesses taken away. I hate godlike protagonists, but godlike villains aren't much better.
Jiggawha 04-25-08, 01:19 PM	aye I doubt the author didn't do his or her research, and 2e had opposite schools of magic. So I'll go with novels don't follow game mechanics. as far as I remember, the only forbidden school for Szass in 2e would be the illusion
The Simbul 04-25-08, 01:35 PM	In 2E and 3E D&D Szass Tam was unable to cast Enchantment and Illusion spells. In 3.5 D&D Szass Tam is still barred from casting Enchantment and Illusion spells, but would also be required to add an additional school of magic to his list of prohibited spells. As far as the novels are concerned, I suppose it would depend on how precisely these spells are presented in the storytelling. Unless the author is outright stating that "Szass Tam casts dominate monster", then it could very well be that some other spell effect is being used. I have not delved into the Haunted Lands trilogy yet, so I cannot really comment on the context. At present I have little motivation to read too many FR novels for the time being, specifically when novels and adventures are simply being used to lay out the groundwork for destroying treasured parts of the Realms for 4th edition. That said, I do not think the author should be faulted for not strictly adhering to the game rules. Not because I think that the rules should be ignored in novels (in fact my opinion is quite the contrary) but only because other more "established" authors persistently ignore, flout, or alter the rules or statistics of characters on whim, and then leave it up to the rest of the gaming community to try to rationalize the how and why. Moreover, it is far easier to explain away the statistically improbable actions and exploits of a spellcaster in fiction than it is to explain similarly improbable actions by martial characters. If you really need an explanation, assume that Szass Tam is just using limited wish, his ring of three wishes, or Alamanther's return to duplicate the spells in question.
Dankan 04-26-08, 04:10 AM	If you really need an explanation, assume that Szass Tam is just using limited wish, his ring of three wishes, or Alamanther's return to duplicate the spells in question.[/QUOTE] Yeah i guess that would made sense.thanks for mentioning it.As far as i'm concerned the Haunted Lands isn't a bad trilogy despite the 4E footwork tha representsand what u suggested will most likely explain how Szass casts that spells
MarkusTay63 04-26-08, 12:28 PM	Mybe he has The Amulet of Mary Sue, which allows him to do things a normal person can't. ;) :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-27-08, 08:02 PM	I have not delved into the Haunted Lands trilogy yet, so I cannot really comment on the context. At present I have little motivation to read too many FR novels for the time being, specifically when novels and adventures are simply being used to lay out the groundwork for destroying treasured parts of the Realms for 4th edition. Emphasis mine--that is exactly how it seems to me, too.
Lord Karsus 04-28-08, 12:38 AM	-If it's revelant- and I think it is- authors don't AND SHOULDN'T be forced to adhere to the Player's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and whatever other D&D sourcebooks that are relevant. At the end of the day, a novel is a novel. Authors should be allowed to have the freedom to add/subtract/modify details in their novels.
DMD 04-28-08, 12:16 PM	I am enjoying the trilogy as well, however, if Szass Tam was using wishes, the author probbaly would have described him wishing for those spell effects. A wish even a simple one should be carefully worded.
Senevri 04-28-08, 05:23 PM	not really. It's just "Limited Wish spell I don't have", as that's a SAFE use... and since in the novels the people aren't specifically screaming out "Fireball!" every time they cast it....
Red_Wizard 04-29-08, 10:13 AM	As I recall, I don't remember him ever casting an enchantment, illusion or Abjuration at any point. That is three schools, and three banned are needed for a RW. So it doesn't seem so far fetched that he has acess to the others. -RW
Dankan 04-30-08, 01:50 AM	RW, Szass Tam did cast a spell of the enchantment school(unless i'm mistaken) when he summoned the blood fiend (Tsagoth or whatever his name was) and put a geas on him.Also since he repeatadly says that he has wards against fire, etc almost all the time on his person it only makes sence that he can cast abjurations as well, plus he seems able to cast some protective spells to ward himself against tough situations (he used a prismatic sphere, unless i'm wrong, when he approaches the commanders in the end of Unclean and i think anothe abjuration to protect himself against an entropic reaper whom he accidentaly summmoned when magic failed in Undead).Thus i would say that the only spells that i never saw him casting are illusions.
Stigger 04-30-08, 08:33 AM	You could conceivably cast all of those with schools other than abjuration and enchantment. Except the prismatic... but even if that is the case, I thought the RW prestige allowed you to retain any spells in your new prohibited school that you already knew, you just couldn't add any more to your spellbook... presuming that's the case, its conceivable that he could still be using abjurative spells if he already had them.
Red_Wizard 04-30-08, 11:47 AM	First, yes it is true that the RW PrC allows you to retain spells and use items of your final banned school, so that would explain any spells cast in that regard. Most people taking Red Wizard hold off until later in their careers to progress into the PrC, as there is a fine line to be walked between power and sacrifice. Given his levels and age, it is concievable he did not take the cloth until later in life and thus still retains access to more potent Abjurative spells. Additionally, the ToT changed how magic works, and one must still account for how they cast in previous editions. 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5 each had very different Red Wizards, so one could also speculate that he still retains abilities from previous incarnations. This said, a lich is a potent being to begin with, and over the years I am quite sure he has found ways to either wish permanent protections on himself, or collect a significant ammount of items to defend against any but the most persistant of opponents. As for the Ench remark, a blood fiend is an undead creature, so I doubt very much Szass would have any difficulty in controlling it with any number of spells that are not from Enchantment. -RW