Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Beaver 08-06-07, 10:18 PM	I am making Szass Tam for my campaign upcoming, and although there is no rush (the characters are all 1st level) I want to at least have his levels done with... He is going to be a 35th level character, and I believe he will be Necromancer 10/Red Wizard 10/ Archmage 5...but I dont know what else I should give him levels in. I am confused about epic spellcasting also, so will someone shed some light?
BlackHalfDragon 08-06-07, 11:17 PM	his stats are in the FR setting already if Im not mistaken ....
runestar 08-07-07, 12:25 AM	his stats are in the FR setting already if Im not mistaken .... Yes, but he is just lv29, and those stats stink to high heavens. If you have complete mage, master specialist is not a bad prc.
Alleran 08-07-07, 01:43 AM	Szass Tam has been statted in the Epic Level Handbook - he's a Necromancer 10/Red Wizard 17/Archmage 2 with the Lich template (total CR of 31). Yes, but he is just lv29, and those stats stink to high heavens. Elminster himself is only a 29th level caster. ;) I am confused about epic spellcasting also, so will someone shed some light? What about it?
Beaver 08-07-07, 01:48 AM	Well, some people have told me that there is no more epic classes.... So, how could there be a Red Wizard up to 20.... Also, the seeds confuse me so much...im debating whether to even run epic level spells like it suggests.... But, if there are no more epic classes....I want Tam to make sense. So, I need to add 10 more class levels of something that would make sense...... Necro 10/Red Wizard 10/ Archmage 5 Just what else??
Alleran 08-07-07, 01:53 AM	Well, some people have told me that there is no more epic classes.... So, how could there be a Red Wizard up to 20.... IIRC, you can have Epic level progression past level 10 in a prestige class as long as you've already reached Epic levels. So if you're a 15th level character (Red Wizard 10, Necromancer 5), then you couldn't gain any more levels in the RW class. But if you're a 21st level character (Red Wizard 10, Necromancer 11), then you could take more levels in the RW class. I think. Also, the seeds confuse me so much...im debating whether to even run epic level spells like it suggests.... How do the seeds confuse you? I always thought they were quite simple to work out - you can use the spells already created as examples for building your own spells up, too. Just what else?? Arcane Lord, perhaps?
Beaver 08-07-07, 02:00 AM	What is arcane lord from? Remember...this is my first DMing experience....so I am sorry for my lack of knowledge.... Epic spells confuse me...I mean...I have read it a few times... They even confuse my DM....who is very experienced...we just havent been able to play with epic level spells... But...seeds confuse me alot...How you obtain them...I just dont know how it makes sense either...maybe someone can explain it... sorry for my ignorance :(
Splarg 08-07-07, 03:08 AM	as soon as you hit level 21 you can take more levels in RW (ie if your necro10/Red10, at CL 21 you can become Necro10/Red11) I believe arcane lord is an epic class presented in dragon magazine around the time the epic handbook came out. It wasn't my favourite class but then you constantly see epic builds of archmages which have levels in the class so i reckon many people think it's a good one. I agree that master specialist would make a good addition to Szass Tam, make him a necro10/red10/master10/archmage5 and he should be pretty decent and powerful. you have access to most of the seeds when you take epic spellcasting (specialist mages will have some which they don't have access to and i believe there are one or two which are divine specific), I find that developing an epic spell is the hardest part about them.
Alleran 08-07-07, 03:18 AM	What is arcane lord from? Remember...this is my first DMing experience....so I am sorry for my lack of knowledge.... The Arcane Lord is an Epic Prestige Class (meaning you can only take levels in it if you're already an Epic character). The full details were in an issue of Dragon (#297, IIRC). They even confuse my DM....who is very experienced...we just havent been able to play with epic level spells... If it's your first time DMing, I'm not sure that you'd want to be going into Epic-level stuff anyway (as in, just use Szass as he is presented in the ELH). But...seeds confuse me alot...How you obtain them...I just dont know how it makes sense either...maybe someone can explain it... An abridged version of how I use them: Once you've taken the Epic Spellcasting feat, you may develop your own spells. They are different in that each day, you have a certain number of Epic Spell slots that depends on your Knowledge skill (arcana for arcane, religion or nature for divine) - the total modifier divided by ten. So if you have a total Knowledge [arcana] of 50, then you have five Epic spell slots. Or if the rank was 30, you'd have three. Epic spells are a part of the caster - akin to Sorceror spells in that he doesn't need a spellbook to memorise them (although in the case of a Wizard, they would need to spend time fixing the spell into their memory, of course). For developing the spell, the following is pinched from the "Animus Blast" Epic spell. To Develop: 450,000 gp; 9 days; 18,000 XP. Seeds: energy (DC 19), animate dead (DC 23). Factors: set undead type to skeleton (–12 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). So a wizard/sorceror/cleric/druid/whatever with the Epic Spellcasting feat would, in order to develop that spell, spend 450000GP, 18000XP, and nine days to create the spell, at which point he or she (or it) may cast the spell once it is memorised. It was developed by combining the two seeds of Energy and Animate Dead. Put together, they have a total DC of 42. So you'd already need a high enough spellcraft skill to ensure that when attempting to cast the spell, you can get at least 42 when adding the total modifier etc. to whatever you get on the roll (or you could just take 10 on the check). To make it easier to cast, the undead type is a skeleton, bringing it down to 30 DC. Then it was given a 1-action casting time, which added 20, bringing it up to 50. So you need at least a Spellcraft of 30 to have a chance at casting the spell (assuming you can get a 20 on the roll when you try). Since this is somewhat difficult, a Spellcraft of 40 is better, since by taking 10 on the check, you'll get 50, which is enough to get the spell cast. Does that sort of explain how at least that particular spell was created? By looking at the seed descriptions for the Animus Blast spell, you can see how the end result came about, and it shouldn't really be that difficult from there on to modify other spells as you see fit or to create entirely new ones. And there's a thread around somewhere with a list of Epic spells developed by people on the forums (somebody has the link in their signature) if you're still uncertain. Really, though, if it's your first time as a DM and all the characters are 1st level, then I would advise that you not go anywhere near the Epic level stuff. Just use Szass as he's presented. Sure, he might be less (or more) powerful than what he should be, but it's easier than rebuilding him from the ground up if you're only a novice.
Stigger 08-07-07, 04:50 AM	Thought it was your actual ranks in Knowledge (arcana/religion/nature) rather than your total modifier. As to how to build Szass... personally given that he's fairly young for a lich, I'm not sure I'd go to 35th level with him. Seems a bit excessive considering some of the mages out there far older with a lot fewer levels. Though I would definitely recommend rebuilding him, given the almost laughable stats he (and most others) were given.
Alleran 08-07-07, 05:04 AM	Thought it was your actual ranks in Knowledge (arcana/religion/nature) rather than your total modifier. I run it as the total modifier. Should have made that clear, I guess.
Beaver 08-07-07, 10:29 PM	Well, I am a very experienced player (just with no experience with epic casting).... And, I am only building the character now, I doubt he actually will ever be used, I just want him in the world...letting the characters choose what they want to do, and me be prepared for it. Like I said, I have time to learn, I just needed it explained to me... and Thanks, that helped alot...so if you have a Knowledge arcana 50, you have 5 slots... can you interchange your spells in those slots, or once you fill a slot can you never change it?
Beaver 08-07-07, 10:31 PM	Also, I cannot find arcane lord online...can anyone give me a link to the class?
Alleran 08-07-07, 11:50 PM	and Thanks, that helped alot...so if you have a Knowledge arcana 50, you have 5 slots... Remember, that's how I run it. The actual RAW might say just the total number of ranks you have in the skill, which is different to the total modifier. can you interchange your spells in those slots, or once you fill a slot can you never change it? Epic Spell Slots for wizards serve the same function as normal spell slots. However, the Epic spell does not need a spellbook to be recorded - the character himself is the spellbook, in a way. Example: If you have two Epic spell slots (Knowledge [arcana] 20), and three Epic spells, you can choose two of those spells (or two memorisations of the one spell) to go into the slots, basically just like a normal wizard does. A sorceror does it slightly differently, and would have two possible castings of an epic spell (casting them as he/she would cast a normal spell). Or in short - yes, you can interchange your spells. You can also never lose access to Epic spells. As I think I said, the way it is written, the spells become an "indelible" part of you. A wizard would still need to spend time "committing" it to memory so as to cast it, but he doesn't need a spellbook to do so.
Green Elven Vampire 08-07-07, 11:55 PM	Use the 3ED epic progression in the FRCS. It's much more simple.
Beaver 08-08-07, 12:05 AM	The problem is that is everyone I play with including my DM (whom is a player in my upcoming DM experience) really prefers everything to be 3.5 Mostly because of power issues, I mean I can remember having a Retributive Amulet (From Exalted Deeds) which says everyone time you get Hit, divide the damage and give your enemy half...with the Feat Robilards Gambit...(every time a creature attacks you, you get an attack of oppurtunity) So in essence, when a creature would attack me, they would take half the damage done to me AND recieve an attack back. Needless to Say, my Halfling Barbarian was almost unstoppable in melee..... So, in just that example we find 3.0 to be unfair...and are trying hard to keep up with 3.5...
Splarg 08-08-07, 06:04 AM	i'm mostly certain that wizards don't need to fill an epic spell slot with their epic spells, they can use their epic spell slots to cast any epic spell they know spontaneously. Edit: nope, i'm completely wrong, they do need to prepare in advance.
Beaver 08-08-07, 03:45 PM	SUCCESS! I reread the epic section on spellcasting a few times and I believe I have it.... Now does anyone have a link to arcane lord? Or the stats they can post?
sleyvas 08-08-07, 05:30 PM	One thing to consider when making epic spellcaster. If you have already attained your 20 levels as a spellcaster, +1 level of spellcasting does not get you extra spells any longer. Thus, many classes that are very good when leveling from 1-20 that are great may not be as good as a class that gets spells every other level.
Duagloth 08-08-07, 09:28 PM	Why not this? Nec10/Red Wiz10/Master Spec.10/Archmage 5 = 35. Quite simple :)
Alleran 08-08-07, 10:05 PM	Now does anyone have a link to arcane lord? Or the stats they can post? I think it might be classed as an IP violation to post the stats, though you could ask somebody over at Dicefreaks if they have them. Not sure, though, so I'm erring on the side of caution.
Beaver 08-08-07, 11:17 PM	Hmmm well if that is true about the legality... could someone email it to me?? tenaciousbeaver@yahoo.com Also, I am debating about master specialist...I am just putting ALOT of thought into Tam, as it may turn out to be very important (The PC's may not be fighting him, but there may be fighting behind the scenes and sometimes I like to roleplay that) So far there are a few possibilities.... Red Wizard to 20 10 Levels of Master Specialist 10 Levels of Arcane Lord if I ever see that. And some variant of the the master of the 7 necromantic secrets, which is from the necronimicom, a source provided by some very skilled DM here on the threads.... So, I have a few to choose from....I would like to see Arcane Lord first....
Stigger 08-09-07, 03:31 AM	I'm pretty sure that Dicefreaks had a write up of the PrC somewhere on its forums... I seem to recall that it came up and was there when I attempted to google it a few months ago. From the glance over I took of it, I was pretty underwhelmed as I recall, but different strokes and all.
Khaira 08-11-07, 12:12 AM	You know, in all reality, you don't have to restat out good old Tam. If you're planning on the PCs fighting Tam (eek! At your proposed 35th level, I'd hope not. :eek: ), I can understand why you would be needing to restat him. If you're just statting him out to see if he can use particular abilities essential to moving the plot along ... have him do it. Personally, I rarely, if ever (unless I know there are going to be definitive combat situation). Alternative to the "The ship goes fast as the plot needs it to go", I generally use " is as powerful and has access to x ability as much as he or she needs to in order to move the plot along." And lastly, I would echo the sentiments of others here who have said that 35 character levels might be a wee bit too potent. To put things into perspective, Larloch from [i]Lords of Darkness, a survivor of ancient Netheril - some thousands of years ago - is only a CR 34. He only has 32 class levels: his Wizard levels and the Epic levels. If a survivor of that long isn't even above 35 levels, I wouldn't think Szass Tam should be or even needs to be. Restatting Szass Tam might be fine for your game, but careful not to play favorites by making him just under the power level of a god. If your goal is simply to show the PCs that there are bigger players in the Realms than them (try not to do that too often: the PCs should be in the limelight), you don't need to worry about the stats too much, I don't think. In the words of Greenwood himself: The secret, the 'tip,' is what it's always been: if you concentrate on roleplaying and forget about rules as much as possible ... most of it just doesn't really mater.
Beaver 08-11-07, 02:22 AM	Thanks for the tips! Well, I am also going with Larloch being the definitive strongest known being in all of Faerun. The reason why Tam has gotten strong in this case is that there has been a good amount of time past from 1372 (It is actually 1416 now), 44 years to be exact. In this time, major events have happened throughout Faerun in our campaign. Ill will go over this now in short; Mephistopheles came to Toril wanting to make it his home plane and rule (The idea was whispered from Asmodeus, as he wanted his rival out of the way) Drow allied themselves with the devilkind of Mephistopheles in a bid to rise from the underdark, extracting revenge upon the surface elves and taking a position of power as well. With Banes return, he allied himself with Velsharoon and took control of the Fugue plane, killing Jergal and imprisoning Kelemvor. With this, Bane grew to easily the strongest deity on Toril, and Valsharoon became very powerful as well. Now, Bane has allied himself with demonkind, allowing them to freely steal souls from the fougue plane in return for their aid on Toril. (Banite clerics took control of Faerun's cities, promising protection from devilkind.) Also, Velsharoon was free to use souls to create hordes of undead to unleash all of Toril, aiding the Banite cause. Borem was resureccted, taking the godslaying dagger that penetrated his heart for so many years and immediatly killed Bane. However, Bane returned shortly after sending Borem back into his Quaqheart. Bane, it was found out, was ressurected each time he was killed thanks to Velsharoon. In the end, Mephistopheles posed the largest threat to Toril, and was eventually killed by a group of epic level PC's (All started from level 1 mind you) and with the help of Geryon (whom bid to return to his seat as an archdevil). Velsharoon was killed, in turn leaving Bane vernerable, and he sooned perished as well returning the fugue plane to Kelemvor. During all this time, Thay was invaded by the 10 drow cities of Undrek'Thoz (whom were eventually defeated). Thay then took the oppurtunity to march upon the southern part of Rashemen, which they found in shambals anyway. After setting up a town of their own, the three Zulkirs opposed to Tam (Lauzoril, Aznar, and Nevron) marched their armies upon Algarond. They were quickly defeated by Simbul, and treachery from Tam. SO Within the last 44 years, Szass Tam has killed 3 other Zulkirs and studied intensely with Larloch. That is why he has gained so much power, he has access to much of Larlochs Tomes and such....
Alleran 08-11-07, 02:47 AM	To put things into perspective, Larloch from Lords of Darkness, a survivor of ancient Netheril - some thousands of years ago - is only a CR 34. He only has 32 class levels: his Wizard levels and the Epic levels. If a survivor of that long isn't even above 35 levels, I wouldn't think Szass Tam should be or even needs to be. It also needs to be said that according to Ed, Larloch is far, far more powerful than his LoD statblock would indicate - CR46 with the ability to choose which spells affect him. He's a PC-be-good stick.
Beaver 08-11-07, 10:32 PM	In my Faerun, Larloch is the most powerful being currently. He will be at least level 45. So....