Post/Author/DateTime	Post
archwizard 11-29-07, 11:10 AM	does anybody knows anything about the 13 princes that existed before shar and shelune?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-29-07, 12:26 PM	does anybody knows anything about the 13 princes that existed before shar and shelune? Uh, what?:confused:
Meldread 11-29-07, 01:15 PM	He is talking about the Shadevari, the thirteen lords of shadow. I believe they were in a novel called "The Crypt of the Shadowking." In any event they were imprisoned by Azuth in the Shadowstar which was crafted by Gond, if I understand correctly.
Green Elven Vampire 11-29-07, 01:24 PM	Sounds interesting. I'd like to know a bit more about them as well. I'd assume they were Shadowmages and not Shadow Adepts.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-29-07, 01:38 PM	Whatever they are, I somehow doubt they existed before Shar and Selune.
Gnaipnur 11-29-07, 02:19 PM	Actually, I remember reading something about that in a book in the original Baldur's Gate game. I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one (I was beginning to douby my memory). I think it said something about them existing in the hazy time before light and darkness were separated.
Warning 11-29-07, 02:21 PM	Whatever they are, I somehow doubt they existed before Shar and Selune. Why's that? I know that Shar and Selune were one of the 1st deities but, if you never heard of them, they must be very old, perhaps older than Shar and Selune? Imprisoning them would probally make thier status unknown.
OrderofUhlrik 11-29-07, 02:53 PM	The only thing we really have is the impression that Ao was first since he absolutely controls all of Realmspace and that would imply he created the world. So in theory, there very well could be older entities than Shar and Selune. Not that its likely, just that its possible. I'm also interested to know more about these 13 princes. I'm curious if they are some sort of failed deity group or what.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-29-07, 03:20 PM	Actually, if I recall correctly it was Selune who created the world (which is why Shar hates her so much). Shar and Selune weren't merely "two of the first deities"--the world didn't even exist before they did.
Gnaipnur 11-29-07, 03:50 PM	No, Shar became enraged when Selūne gave into Chauntea's (Abeir-Toril) plea of warmth and created Amaunator (the Sun), even though Shar opposed agreeing to this. I can't remember who created Chauntea; it may have been the twins or maybe Ao. Anyway, she was cold and her surface dead. She needed life. This was of course in stark contrast to Shar's preference of darkness, cold and lifelessness.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-29-07, 03:57 PM	It wasn't AO--as I said Chauntea (the world) didn't exist before Shar and Selune did.
MarkusTay63 11-29-07, 03:58 PM	Those guys sound intriguing! :D We know there are two sets of seven lost gods, so if one god wound up listed in both groups (not all of them have been named in FR canon), then they may very well indeed be these 'lost deities' from primordial times. If they are indeed ancient gods, then it seems a little strange that it was Azuth who imprisoned them, though.
Gnaipnur 11-29-07, 04:01 PM	No, but just because the planet didn't exist doesn't mean that the Thirteen didn't. Like I said: Hazy time before light and darkness separated. Fact is; what little is known about them places them at the very beginning, or even before that, of Realmspace. As far as I know, there's no source on where they came from.
OrderofUhlrik 11-29-07, 05:07 PM	I hate when I make a mistake of semantics that shoots my whole arguement in the damned foot. I meant Ao created the Crystal Sphere most likely, so therefore there could have been an infinate number of occurances and peoples before Shar/Selune came into existance. Especially since Ao has the power to alter memory of every inhabitant of the sphere etc.
Aldareth 11-29-07, 05:15 PM	He is talking about the Shadevari, the thirteen lords of shadow. I believe they were in a novel called "The Crypt of the Shadowking." In any event they were imprisoned by Azuth in the Shadowstar which was crafted by Gond, if I understand correctly. Marchayn of Archendale, the feared "Mad Witch" of the Thunder Peaks, has been found in her citadel, mindless and drooling, amidst chaos. All about her tower lay the dead bodies of the orcs (and worse) that served her, and much of her tower is now a fire-blackened shell. The herdsman who found her reported to merchants of Arabel that Marchayn (who soon died and whose body was burned by the herdsman) repeated endlessly, "Dove! Dove! Smashed the black star . . . Dove!" i think the shadowstar = black star.... i solved the mystery of the spellplague :D
Alkasyn 11-29-07, 05:25 PM	The only thing we really have is the impression that Ao was first since he absolutely controls all of Realmspace and that would imply he created the world. So in theory, there very well could be older entities than Shar and Selune. Not that its likely, just that its possible. I'm also interested to know more about these 13 princes. I'm curious if they are some sort of failed deity group or what. But Ao does have someone above him in the hierarchy, right?? I remember hearing that in one of the books he's reporting the currenta ffairs to someone more important than him, at least judging from the form Ao does it in.
Aldareth 11-29-07, 05:34 PM	AO has only WotC above him
GothicDan 11-29-07, 11:40 PM	I believe they are briefly described more in the Villain's Lorebook.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 12:10 AM	-The Shadevari were featured in the novels Crypt of the Shadowking and Curse of the Shadowmage, as well as being featured in The Villain's Lorebook. Beasts from the long-lost past of Toril, shadevari were recently summoned to be the servants of Shadowkings. They are bipedal and covered with irongray lizard scales, with misshapen faces; two black tusks curving like scimitars from their mouths. A single, serrated onyx horn crowns their foreheads; wicked barbs sprout from their chests, arms, and the crests atop their heads; shallow depressions exist where their eyes should be to finish their ghastly faces. The beasts have retractable talons on their hands and feet. --SPOILER BELOW-- The first recorded occurrence of shadevari in modern-day Faerūn was in 1364 DR. One of these creatures was sent by Snake, a shade in the service of the Shadowking, after the Harpers Caledan Caldorien, Mari Al'maren, and their allies. After a long pursuit and several battles, the beast was destroyed. Not long after that, another new Shadowking began to make his presence known in the Realms. This was Caledan Caldorien. Feeling a part within him changing, he fled from his friends and loved ones, fearing for their safety. These same friends went after him, unaware of the reason for his flight. As the evil within him grew, Caledan developed a split personality. He fought to retain control, but the evil of the Shadowking would overpower him at times and cause havoc. The undead beings known as shadows were under the Shadowking's control, as were all the 'shadow magic' wizard spells. With these tools, the Shadowking wreaked much havoc and grew in strength. The evil within Caledan also released not one but three shadevari into the Realms to pursue and kill the Harper's friends. After a long journey and many trials, the heroes came upon the Shadowkings birth. While unable to prevent the event, they mortally wounded the newborn king while fighting the shadevari. The heroes knew that killing the Shadowking could well cost their friend his life as well. Fortunately, the shadevari were destroyed under unique circumstances, and Caledan emerged from the king's corpse, just barely alive. The prospects for his long-term survival do not appear to be good.
Warning 11-30-07, 02:26 AM	I'm guessing they are evil, hence the "13" princes. (Using 13 as the unlucky number or bad omen)
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 02:32 AM	I'm guessing they are evil, hence the "13" princes. (Using 13 as the unlucky number or bad omen) -Indeed. -The Shadevari are basically the evil shadow soldiers from the first season of Sailor Moon, if anyone is familiar with it.
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 04:10 AM	So then... that means Caledan was born by cesarean the second time? -The Shadevari are basically the evil shadow soldiers from the first season of Sailor Moon, if anyone is familiar with it.Do the un-original rip-offs never end? :rolleyes:
Zanan 11-30-07, 04:20 AM	I'm guessing they are evil, hence the "13" princes. (Using 13 as the unlucky number or bad omen) Unless I am mistaken, this superstitous bad omen thing comes, much like "Friday the 13th", from the very date the French king ordered the Knights Templars in all of France to be persecuted and imprisoned. And I haven't heard about these 13 princes either. Any source for the initial question?
Meldread 11-30-07, 04:24 AM	Although I do not have it, I have heard that they appeared in Faith's and Avatar's. I think they were either removed or retconned in 3rd Edition. From my understanding the Shadevari appeared or existed before Selune and Shar, but were not made out to be gods. They seemed to be just powerful beings that existed within the shadowy void before time. Then Shar and Selune came along, did their thing, Selune brought light to the world which angered Shar, and the Shadevari seemed to side with Shar. Nothing much seemed to come out of it, and eventually Azuth managed to get rid of them some thousands of years later with the assistance of Gond. I am pretty sure they have been retconned in some way for 3rd Edition because in Faith's and Pantheons they are not mentioned at all.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 04:27 AM	So then... that means Caledan was born by cesarean the second time? -Yes. Although I do not have it, I have heard that they appeared in Faith's and Avatar's. I think they were either removed or retconned in 3rd Edition. I am pretty sure they have been retconned in some way for 3rd Edition because in Faith's and Pantheons they are not mentioned at all. -Being as that all of the Shadevari have either been killed or reimprisoned, there really isn't a reason to give them stats. Same deal as the Gnazeths (Sp?).
Stigger 11-30-07, 04:38 AM	I thought that there was still one gazneth, or whatever they're called, running around... I don't recall him doing anything but walking off into the sunset.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 04:47 AM	I thought that there was still one gazneth, or whatever they're called, running around... I don't recall him doing anything but walking off into the sunset. -Tanalastha's suitor? Yeah, maybe you're right...
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 04:59 AM	Yup... the new King's daddy. :devil:
18DELTA 11-30-07, 10:06 AM	-Indeed. -The Shadevari are basically the evil shadow soldiers from the first season of Sailor Moon, if anyone is familiar with it. Now why in the world are you watching "The First Season of Sailor Moon"? Sicko!!!;) :P :D
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 11:19 PM	Now why in the world are you watching "The First Season of Sailor Moon"? Sicko!!!;) :P :D -I liked Sailor Moon when I was younger. Your point?
18DELTA 11-30-07, 11:29 PM	-I liked Sailor Moon when I was younger. Your point? Now dont go and get offened ok. I never figured that the "Archmage of Archmages" would watch that annoying show.:P :P :P
GothicDan 11-30-07, 11:34 PM	I watched Mighty Morphin Power Rangers in 2nd-3rd grade. And Ronin Warriors until.. Uh.. A few months ago. But that was mostly nostalgia.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 11:56 PM	I watched Mighty Morphin Power Rangers in 2nd-3rd grade. -As did the Archmage of Archmages, and I'm sure, 80% of other males around our age. I never figured that the "Archmage of Archmages" would watch that annoying show.:P :P :P -The Archmage of Archmages has watched plenty of TV shows over the years.
sfdragon 12-01-07, 02:48 AM	the power rangers are getting to be same old same old, and that gets boring fast.
Lord Karsus 12-01-07, 02:51 AM	the power rangers are getting to be same old same old, and that gets boring fast. -Well, that's kinda what happens when you have the same thing for...ten years, now? Fifteen?
sfdragon 12-01-07, 03:21 AM	-Well, that's kinda what happens when you have the same thing for...ten years, now? Fifteen? same thing past 10 years is old and boring. so you'd be correct and the power rangers were boring after the 5th year only because they were a voltron carbon copy.
Lord Karsus 12-01-07, 03:22 AM	same thing past 10 years is old and boring. so you'd be correct -Depending on what it is, the same thing past a few minutes can become boring.
Stigger 12-01-07, 06:37 AM	Power Rangers... I think I was married just a little before that series started...
Suin Bahhar 12-03-07, 08:50 AM	I adored Robotech and Eulysses in the 80ties. Learned English by watching He-man. :embarass: What are the princes whereabouts? So the last of the thirteen is somewhere on the plane of shadow surrounding fearun now. Where are the others imprisoned?
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 09:05 AM	What are the princes whereabouts? So the last of the thirteen is somewhere on the plane of shadow surrounding fearun now. Where are the others imprisoned? -The Shadevari aren't exactly Princes or anything...But, I digress. If I remember correctly, all of the Shadevari, except for the 1 that was never released, are dead.
buzzard 12-03-07, 10:28 AM	From Faiths and Pantheons p. 173 (Volumvax and the Adumbral Calyx sidebar) "...Volumvax fancies himself one of the shadevari, primordial creatures of shadow whose existence predated the creation of Shar and Toril itself..." However we have information that contradicts the last statement. Shar is actually older than Selūne and probably as old as the Crystal Sphere (so the shadevari shouldn't be older than Shar), from Shar's entry in F&P (p. 58): "...Shar's existence, paradoxically, is tied to the shrouded nothingness that existed prior to Ao's act of creation..." -this is in reference to his creation of Shar and Selūne-. We can deduce by this that Shar already had a form (nothingness) and merley gained a consciousness thanks to Ao, while Selūne was completely made from zero (mind and body) by the overdeity. A timeline would look like this: 1st Ao's existence 2nd Creation of the Crystal Sphere and the nothingness inside of it (Shar's body) 3rd The Shadevari 4th Shar's consciousness and the creation of Selūne 5th The creation of Chauntea by Shar and Selūne
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 11:31 AM	From Faiths and Pantheons p. 173 (Volumvax and the Adumbral Calyx sidebar) "...Volumvax fancies himself one of the shadevari, primordial creatures of shadow whose existence predated the creation of Shar and Toril itself..." -And, as we know now, Volumvax isn't one of the Shadevari. A timeline would look like this: 1st Ao's existence 2nd Creation of the Crystal Sphere and the nothingness inside of it (Shar's body) 3rd The Shadevari 4th Shar's consciousness and the creation of Selūne 5th The creation of Chauntea by Shar and Selūne -Remember, however, that's all based on mythology. Not that it isn't correct, however...
buzzard 12-03-07, 02:05 PM	-And, as we know now, Volumvax isn't one of the Shadevari. Yes true, he merley fancies himself a shadevari, it's just one of his delusions. I wrote that to add another source that states that the shadevari are older than Shar. -Remember, however, that's all based on mythology. Not that it isn't correct, however... I'm inclined to say that that creation myth is true though. If one reads Chauntea's and Shar's entries in F&P the events of the creation of the crystal sphere and Toril are presented as facts (only in Selune's case they are presented as possibly myth but, considering that next to Selune's comes Shar's information -and written as if everything was a fact-, we could pretty much conclude that it's true). i.e.: Chauntea's entry: "Shar and Selūne predate her, having given her life when they created the world of Toril" Shar's entry: "After Lord Ao created the universe, the swirling chaos coalesced to form twin deities"
Alkasyn 12-03-07, 04:05 PM	From Faiths and Pantheons p. 173 (Volumvax and the Adumbral Calyx sidebar) "...Volumvax fancies himself one of the shadevari, primordial creatures of shadow whose existence predated the creation of Shar and Toril itself..." However we have information that contradicts the last statement. Shar is actually older than Selūne and probably as old as the Crystal Sphere (so the shadevari shouldn't be older than Shar), from Shar's entry in F&P (p. 58): "...Shar's existence, paradoxically, is tied to the shrouded nothingness that existed prior to Ao's act of creation..." -this is in reference to his creation of Shar and Selūne-. We can deduce by this that Shar already had a form (nothingness) and merley gained a consciousness thanks to Ao, while Selūne was completely made from zero (mind and body) by the overdeity. A timeline would look like this: 1st Ao's existence 2nd Creation of the Crystal Sphere and the nothingness inside of it (Shar's body) 3rd The Shadevari 4th Shar's consciousness and the creation of Selūne 5th The creation of Chauntea by Shar and Selūne These comments are well versed, and they remind me of my philosophy classes - the same area of discussion, but whereas there I can't seem to understand what the lady's talking about, here it all fits nicely. Sometimes I wonder if i know more about RPG stuff than about real life stuff:P
Karsus the Mad 12-07-07, 01:39 PM	I adored Robotech and Eulysses in the 80ties. Learned English by watching He-man. :embarass: What are the princes whereabouts? So the last of the thirteen is somewhere on the plane of shadow surrounding fearun now. Where are the others imprisoned? I haven't read the novels in a decade or so, but if I recall correctly, they were imprisoned when Azuth "tricked" them into a shadowy dimension of Gond's creation (or maybe I'm remembering incorrectly and Gond only forged the key...the shadowstar). The novel is somewhat inaccurate as it also places (or implies heavily at least) their imprisonment thousands of years ago, which would be long before Azuth was born, let alone ascended to godhood, but that might simply be due to not having any actual information on Azuth's ascension at the time of the novels publication. I also recall some serious abnormalities involving the Talfir, the Shadowking being a Shadow Weave user (which didn't exist at the time, but has since been retconned in RoF), Azuth, and other little tidbits....
Fingoldfin 12-07-07, 06:37 PM	I haven't read the novels in a decade or so, but if I recall correctly, they were imprisoned when Azuth "tricked" them into a shadowy dimension of Gond's creation (or maybe I'm remembering incorrectly and Gond only forged the key...the shadowstar). The novel is somewhat inaccurate as it also places (or implies heavily at least) their imprisonment thousands of years ago, which would be long before Azuth was born, let alone ascended to godhood, but that might simply be due to not having any actual information on Azuth's ascension at the time of the novels publication. I also recall some serious abnormalities involving the Talfir, the Shadowking being a Shadow Weave user (which didn't exist at the time, but has since been retconned in RoF), Azuth, and other little tidbits.... You should dig those novels out. A priestess of Shar keeps talking to Volumvax in Paul Kemp's novels. I also think that the shadowstar is the thing that Cale cut in half. The "Shadowstorm" and Spellplague could be linked to the "missing" gods. In a response to me Baker said that some of the pantheon changes were the result of an idea Ed came up with that he called the "Sleeping Gods." Maybe these sleeping gods are the dark primordial gods. Maybe they get released at the end of Kemp's series. That would explain why WotC doesn't want to talk about the new Realms. It spoils the book.
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 10:37 AM	A priestess of Shar keeps talking to Volumvax in Paul Kemp's novels. -As I mentioned before, Volumvax isn't one of the Shadevari. Volumvax is Mask's first Chosen, Kessen Rel.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-08-07, 08:33 PM	Yeah, Volumvax is a friggin' poser!
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 08:49 PM	Yeah, Volumvax is a friggin' poser! -Indeed.
Eli_the_Tanner 12-12-07, 01:34 AM	If these Shadevari predate the existance of Shar and Selune and no reference is made of AO creating them, it may be that they are the original inhabitants of the "shrouded nothingness that existed prior to Ao's act of creation". It may be Ao just pitched his caravan on their lovely patch of nothingness. Then Ao invites all his friends around and refuses to move on - the pikey swine.
Rauric 12-12-07, 07:14 AM	Actually, if I recall correctly it was Selune who created the world (which is why Shar hates her so much). Shar and Selune weren't merely "two of the first deities"--the world didn't even exist before they did. Maybe Selune created Toril but who created Abeir?
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 09:54 AM	If these Shadevari predate the existance of Shar and Selune and no reference is made of AO creating them, it may be that they are the original inhabitants of the "shrouded nothingness that existed prior to Ao's act of creation". -That's a possibility. Although, things get foggy when you consider the Shar-Selūne story a myth that isn't true... Maybe Selune created Toril but who created Abeir? -There is no seperate entity of 'Abeir'. These are simply rumors, and hints in books of something to come- what? We don't know. Abeir-Toril is the name of the planet, and it continues to be the name of the planet, until some misguided products says otherwise.
Rauric 12-12-07, 07:05 PM	Maybe the explaination of calling Toril Abeir-Toril is that there were previous gods and beings (aboleths, kuotoa ect) that ran the planet and their name for it was Abeir. Then the other gods showed up or were created to take over. Maybe Shar/Selune were created after a great catastrophe that wiped out the Old Ones... I mean old gods. ;)
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 08:37 PM	Maybe the explaination of calling Toril Abeir-Toril is that there were previous gods and beings (aboleths, kuotoa ect) that ran the planet and their name for it was Abeir. Then the other gods showed up or were created to take over. Maybe Shar/Selune were created after a great catastrophe that wiped out the Old Ones... I mean old gods. ;) -All of that is a good theory, but the fact remains that there is absolutely no evidence of any of that, barring the tenets of the Keepers of the Cerulean Sign. At least, right now, anyway.
Rauric 12-12-07, 08:47 PM	-All of that is a good theory, but the fact remains that there is absolutely no evidence of any of that, barring the tenets of the Keepers of the Cerulean Sign. At least, right now, anyway. Right, the stuff I posted above is just a thought of what might be coming dow nthe road. I am starting to piece a few things together and IMO it leads to Sleeping Gods, Abeir, and aboleths all mixed together.
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 08:51 PM	-Whatever it is, Aboleths certainly seem to be involved. For such powerful creatures (they retain all memories of those they consume!), they are underrated enemies. Before all of this Abeir-Aboleth nonsense, I inserted an Aboleth-controlled territory (The Aboleth Lands) into my campaign setting, and when you think about it, numerous Aboleth are indeed quite fightening.
Rauric 12-12-07, 11:30 PM	-Whatever it is, Aboleths certainly seem to be involved. For such powerful creatures (they retain all memories of those they consume!), they are underrated enemies. Before all of this Abeir-Aboleth nonsense, I inserted an Aboleth-controlled territory (The Aboleth Lands) into my campaign setting, and when you think about it, numerous Aboleth are indeed quite fightening. Yup. Don't they also have the memories of the being who spawned them?
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 11:52 PM	Yup. Don't they also have the memories of the being who spawned them? -Yes, because they eat their parents! :coolcthul
Rauric 12-12-07, 11:58 PM	See, the next big baddies in 4E are the Sleeping gods and their minions. This is definitly Cthuthulu and EB esque. More Chtuthulu than EB though.
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 12:06 AM	See, the next big baddies in 4E are the Sleeping gods and their minions. This is definitly Cthuthulu and EB esque. More Chtuthulu than EB though. -Lord of Madness, which most this is coming from, directly borrows from the Call of Cthulu mythos in many cases, and it says as much in the "Resources" section on the first page.
Stigger 12-13-07, 01:02 AM	Good to know... another reason to avoid that book for me. Can't stand Cthulu stuff.
18DELTA 12-13-07, 01:10 AM	:dancin: :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul:dancin:
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 01:13 AM	Good to know... another reason to avoid that book for me. Can't stand Cthulu stuff. -It's a poor man's version (in theory, not price!) of The Ilithiad, Eye, Tyrant, and Call of Cthulu, all wrapped into one 3e package. All in all, it is interesting, if nothing else.
Stigger 12-13-07, 01:44 AM	I've never like Aberrations much to be honest. I just don't find them that compelling.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-13-07, 10:45 AM	See, the next big baddies in 4E are the Sleeping gods and their minions. This is definitly Cthuthulu and EB esque. More Chtuthulu than EB though. Has this been confirmed somewhere?
Rauric 12-13-07, 12:14 PM	Has this been confirmed somewhere? No, it is just me guessing. Seems like the way they may handle it with all the clues they have been dropping.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-13-07, 12:53 PM	Hmm, maybe.
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 07:00 PM	Has this been confirmed somewhere? -Based on the clues provided in these threads, and in the novel Stardeep, a mighty Aboleth-led city from another world is constantly in peril of spilling over into Faerūn. This is, presumably, the "merging of worlds".
Rauric 12-13-07, 07:14 PM	Can you spoil Stardeep for me please?
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 07:39 PM	Can you spoil Stardeep for me please? -Heh, I accidentally already did. ;) Stardeep is an ancient citadel that (somehow)predates the Sildeyuir. The Traitor (Who can possibly be Mourel Duskwalker, from the Twilight Tomb module) somehow gained the knowledge of how to call the Aboleth and their "Elder deities", who once ruled Toril, but were cast away by long-forgotten deities and the Cerulean Sign. He was cast away, and sealed in Stardeep, as a ritual or his death could cause the Aboleth-led city of X-something to spill into Faerūn. Every so often, the Traitor tries to escape, and it was one escape attempt that caused Kiril's blade, Angul, to be forged from the soul of her lover, Nangulis. A Keeper of the Cerulean Sign in Stardeep, who also happened to be a Diviner, saw the need to forge a blade from the remnant of Nangulis' essence, Nis, which he would need to counter the Aboleth threat he saw in his dreams. Eventually, he lures Kiril to Stardeep, as she used to be a Keeper, and reunited Angul-Nis, going crazy in the process. And, what's where I'm at.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-13-07, 08:30 PM	-Based on the clues provided in these threads, and in the novel Stardeep, a mighty Aboleth-led city from another world is constantly in peril of spilling over into Faerūn. This is, presumably, the "merging of worlds". I meant the stuff about the 13 princes/sleeping gods.:) I didn't think they were associated with the aboleth stuff.
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 08:39 PM	I meant the stuff about the 13 princes/sleeping gods.:) I didn't think they were associated with the aboleth stuff. -The "Sleeping deities" are associated with aberrations, however. According to Lords of Madness: Antediluvian Aberrations Aberrations hailing from exceedingly ancient times are the remnants or survivors of an ancient world, now replaced by the world that seems normal or natural to humans. Some predate creation itself, existing as the last vestiges of a previous creation, an older multiverse in which the rules were very different. While this would imply a span of billions of years in our own universe, in the fantastic universe of the D&D game the creation of the world might be far more recent, a span of a few hundred or few thousand years. Creatures of antiquity deeply resent the arrival of brash new humanoid races and “creator” deities who erased the ancient predecessor universe and replaced it with a less hospitable (to the aberrations, anyway) world.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-13-07, 08:46 PM	I figured the 13 princes would be humanoid--goes to show how anthropocentric I am.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 12:18 AM	-It's all mildly interesting, but, to me, it's simply importing someone else's campaign setting into the Realms.
Stigger 12-14-07, 12:24 AM	Can't stand the way it insinuates itself into every bloody setting I can think of... we can find plenty of evil and horror out there without having to rely on what's becoming a tired cliche.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 12:25 AM	Can't stand the way it insinuates itself into every bloody setting I can think of... we can find plenty of evil and horror out there without having to rely on what's becoming a tired cliche. -Agreed, which is why, though all of it interesting, with the Aboleth and the Elder Evils and all that good stuff, I'm not too enthused.
Rauric 12-14-07, 08:37 AM	Actually there are many gamers out there that do not know about Chuthulu or any of the mythos. It will all be new to some folk. Plus elves retreating to an Island is a tad cliche but it worked for FR. Know it all wizards with big hats being cryptic all the time is cliche but it worked for the Realm. (Even if El never wore a hat he was portrayed as a Gandalf ripoff on the box covers of the TSR stuff.) If you want minimal cliches pick up a Dark Sun book. Oh wait, that setting was discontinued. ;)
Stigger 12-14-07, 08:47 AM	Interesting... I thought DS was fairly cliched in its whole evil-tyrant, post-apocalyptic approach to things. Just replace evil tyrant mage with evil tyrant psionic. At least it seemed that way to me on the few glances I gave it. As to Cthulu... it made its way into bloody everything when I was a lad, so my reaction to it is usually pretty hostile, no matter how good the attempt might be. Personally, I'd love to let it just die, but you're probably right about it being new to quite a few people.
Rauric 12-14-07, 09:22 AM	I said minimal cliches but you make a good point. When it comes down to it every campaign is cliched as is every advenutre. It porbably has all been done before and if you're an older player you have seen it all. I have a buddy who hates Star Wars because it is very cliche. There are people who have no idea about any of these cliches though.
Karsus the Mad 12-14-07, 11:17 AM	Huh....I thought Stardeep was Halastar's cheesy Astroid M copyright law breaking lair...... Wait...that was Stardock.... Silly me....
RanielK 12-14-07, 11:31 AM	Maybe Selune created Toril but who created Abeir? Ronson, God of Alcohol and Apathy. Ooops, wrong pantheon. :D
RanielK 12-14-07, 11:34 AM	-Yes, because they eat their parents! :coolcthul Mmmmmmmmm, fish 'n chips! Stop you're makin' me hungry! :P
RanielK 12-14-07, 11:38 AM	No, it is just me guessing. Seems like the way they may handle it with all the clues they have been dropping. Yeah, no kiddin'. Just look at the Exemplars of Evil followed by the Elder Evil books. Elder Evil is all about Armageddon/Apocolypse/what have you. And it's most common form (based on the excerpts and interviews, don't have the book) is some thing that came before the current gods or was a contemporary of the gods comin' back and gankin' your whole world (or best case scenario only eating your PC's who sacrifice themselves to save everyone else).
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 12:26 PM	Actually there are many gamers out there that do not know about Chuthulu or any of the mythos. It will all be new to some folk. Plus elves retreating to an Island is a tad cliche but it worked for FR. Know it all wizards with big hats being cryptic all the time is cliche but it worked for the Realm. (Even if El never wore a hat he was portrayed as a Gandalf ripoff on the box covers of the TSR stuff.) If you want minimal cliches pick up a Dark Sun book. Oh wait, that setting was discontinued. ;) -All of that worked in the Realms, though, because mechanisms were built into the setting to make it work. With the Elves, for instance. Well, in the past, they created Evermeet as a safe haven. The Elven race soon began dwindling. The Retreat began, and the Elves fled west. Regarding Elminster...Well, he likes hats, and one of Elminster's mottos is, "The bigger, the better", so that works (;)). -While a lot of that Elder Evil stuff is interesting, mechanisms are't really built into the setting to make it seem anything other than a massive retcon. For example, in Stardeep , it is mentioned that Abberations once ruled the world, before any of the modern deities existed, and that ancient deities banished them using the Cerulean Sign. There is absolutely no information contained in the setting before Stardeep to support that idea. If anything, there are things that contradict it!
Rauric 12-14-07, 03:13 PM	There are comments made about aboleths and kuo-toa running the show at some point in some book. Maybe it is part of the creator races section. Again it doesn't have to be retcon (even though it could be) if all knowledge of the Lost Empires and Sleeping Gods is wiped from existence. Plus this is part of Eds ideas I think.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 04:40 PM	There are comments made about aboleths and kuo-toa running the show at some point in some book. Maybe it is part of the creator races section. Again it doesn't have to be retcon (even though it could be) if all knowledge of the Lost Empires and Sleeping Gods is wiped from existence. Plus this is part of Eds ideas I think. -There is the Amphibian Creator Race, but they aren't the Aboleth, et al. They are the...Batreti (I know that's spelled incorrectly. Someone correct me). -Note, though, that I have no clue what Ed's idea of "Sleeping deities" is. I'm basing all of what I am saying on the idea that the "Sleeping deities" are the Elder Evil powers hinted at in Stardeep and Lords of Madness. I might be barking up the completely wrong tree, there.
Stigger 12-14-07, 05:18 PM	Batrachi I think it was... not sure, and too lazy to look it up. :D
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 05:29 PM	Batrachi I think it was... not sure, and too lazy to look it up. :D -Yeahyeahyeahyeah, that's it.
Suin Bahhar 12-14-07, 06:43 PM	I always liked Gray Richardsons and (I believe it was Krashos) suggestion the realms are factually older than 30.000 years. Shar and Selune created Chauntea who would now be more than 70.000 years old. So the Sarrukh would have been the first creator race when Chauntea was warm enough to hold coldblooded life. Inbetween the first millenia (or was it days?) of Chauntea darkness allowed Aboleths and other abberations to thrive untill the Celestial Sun was put in the Sky. I prefer a slow nurturing and gradually growing Chauntea over a folly formed gentle one. Jergal is one of the first interloper gods. He might have had abberation followers as a head of the Sleeping gods.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 07:17 PM	So the Sarrukh would have been the first creator race when Chauntea was warm enough to hold coldblooded life. Inbetween the first millenia (or was it days?) of Chauntea darkness allowed Aboleths and other abberations to thrive untill the Celestial Sun was put in the Sky. I prefer a slow nurturing and gradually growing Chauntea over a folly formed gentle one. Jergal is one of the first interloper gods. He might have had abberation followers as a head of the Sleeping gods. -I like that, too, and I don't have any problems with that. The point I'm trying to get across is that since there isn't any precident for many of those ideas, it comes across, to me, as a massive retcon. We've been told for years now that, for instance, the Creator Races were the first creatures to inhabit Abeir-Toril. Now, theoretically, they weren't. It's not that it can't be fenagled so that it all makes sense, but it just rings hollow to me, you know? And then, before the Aberations were the Fey. And, before the Fey were the Undead...etc.
Vulpes 12-15-07, 01:24 AM	Well, aboleths at least like to make their homes in the lightless depths, so even if they were around before the Creator Races (who themselves are a bit of construct of elven historians, hence the controversy over whether or not to include dragons) or even the sun, and land life was possible, they may not be much apparent evidence for their former dominance. But I see what Lord Karsus is saying. Personally, I like a bit of Cthulu-esque stuff (though I actually think a lot of the aberrations aren't quite Lovecraftian clones) and find wrestling with an alien mindset interesting, but the designers DO seem to have a bit of a hard-on for them lately. Perhaps Bruce Cordell's influence? He certainly seems to be interested in that sort of thing.
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 01:50 AM	Perhaps Bruce Cordell's influence? He certainly seems to be interested in that sort of thing. -I figured it was the other way around- Bruce has been featuring them a lot in his work (Stardeep, Twilight Tomb)because the 4e manuscript gives them a larger, more defined role in the "new" Realms. But, it could have been Bruce's idea in the first place, also.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-15-07, 05:55 PM	I think this is a case of Bruce Cordell's influence, myself, because I distinctly recall him saying (probably on Candlekeep) that he is a big fan of sci/fi-ish and Lovecraftian stuff. And that preferance definitely shows in his novels, the last two ones especially.
JosephL 12-16-07, 09:04 AM	Getting back to the gods who trapped the abberations, I mentioned in anther thread, in the novel "The Symbles Gift" a group of lost gods was mentioned. These gods were origanly worshipped by ancient humans befor the wild elves came to Toril. When the elves came they adopted these "wild" gods into their own pantheons. As time went on and half-elves came to run rhe show in the Yuri these older gods were forgotten, the last reminder being a set of miur stone set in two rings with the ancient human gods' names carved on the inside stones and the elven gods on the out side, like the outside ring was contaning the inside ring. If I was to venture a gess, either these ancient gods were at war with the abberations or even helping them when the evles came to the Yuri wood and this is when the Traitor in star deep was imprisoned.:)
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 12:26 PM	Getting back to the gods who trapped the abberations, I mentioned in anther thread, in the novel "The Symbles Gift" a group of lost gods was mentioned. These gods were origanly worshipped by ancient humans befor the wild elves came to Toril. When the elves came they adopted these "wild" gods into their own pantheons. As time went on and half-elves came to run rhe show in the Yuri these older gods were forgotten, the last reminder being a set of miur stone set in two rings with the ancient human gods' names carved on the inside stones and the elven gods on the out side, like the outside ring was contaning the inside ring. If I was to venture a gess, either these ancient gods were at war with the abberations or even helping them when the evles came to the Yuri wood and this is when the Traitor in star deep was imprisoned.:) -You know, that all makes sense. That would explain why the Star Elves are the keepers of Stardeep and the Traitor. That would also explain why, even though I asked like four times, the designers wouldn't reply to my query as to what the names of the deities that were on the faded menhirs in the Yuirwood. -And, as a sidenote, "XYZ of the Cerulean Sign" sounds a lot like the way all of the Yuir deities were names- "Relkath of the Infinite Branches", "Magnar the Bear", "Zandilar the Dancer", etc. -I think we might have solved the little riddle, here. :)
Suin Bahhar 12-16-07, 12:46 PM	The lost gods were like an anti-abberation pantheon and imprisoned the abberation gods. Good stuff. Could these be the new gods introduced? They were seven of these lost gods right, or were those a different set of lost dieties?
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 12:57 PM	The lost gods were like an anti-abberation pantheon and imprisoned the abberation gods. Good stuff. Could these be the new gods introduced? They were seven of these lost gods right, or were those a different set of lost dieties? -The deities of the Yuir, there were 10- five that survived, and five that faded away. I'm going on the basis that the ones who faded away are they are the "Lost Deities", since a lot of the facts click, and it generally makes sense. As to where they are, no one knows. The sources simply say that they were ancient deities whose worship has since faded, and the names on the menhirs faded, obscuring their names and identities.
Suin Bahhar 12-16-07, 01:08 PM	Quite nice find. I hope they are empowered again.
JosephL 12-18-07, 01:33 AM	I don't think these gods will be brought back as full powered gods, they may be used as story devices to explain the pantheon shake ups. If WOTC uses these older gods and other powers like the ones in "Frost Fell" to break up racial pantheons to wider groups of worshipers then the cosmology shifts might start to make sense. For example if when Mystra dies the Symble begins to receive guidance from Yuir elves and half-elves gods then slow other wizards may do the same. Since they say the sleeping gods is Ed Greenwoods idea it makes more sense that way; his ideas seem to be more flowing then a single event with a start and a stop. Mr Greenwood always seems to have three more things that will happen from one story idea and those three will affect an idea he started half way across the map, and all with out blowing something up or almost destroying an entire nation. It is why he's the king!:)