| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| DicipleofLolth09-23-07, 03:01 AM | What happens to them with the death of mystra? |
| Zandilar09-23-07, 03:10 AM | Heya, What happens to them with the death of mystra? At the moment, we don't know. Though there is only six of them left, since Sylune was permanently killed in the module Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land |
| Green Elven Vampire09-23-07, 01:00 PM | Knowing WoTc.... they'll replace the 7 sisters with the 8 brothers and their aunt. |
| MarkusTay6309-23-07, 01:34 PM | The Circle of Eight? How Cool! Looking forward to it... :P Really, do we need more then one or two of the 'clone' sisters? Sad about Sylune, though... I rather liked THAT one. :( She was the only one that was different. |
| ikki09-23-07, 04:07 PM | poor blackstaff twins... mom and dad both dead by the time they are 10. Maybe their adoptive dad.. err.. mom, survives ;) |
| GothicDan09-23-07, 04:21 PM | I don't see how Dove was like the Simbul was like Alustriel, etc. People, you are all weird. |
| Jon-Rigel09-23-07, 04:40 PM | What happens to them with the death of mystra? Holy carp! Will someone please tell me how the Seven Sisters died and when. I guess, technically, Sylune has been (un)dead for a while. Jeez, I know I haven't been paying attention for a while, but damn!... Or are you people just jesting? Next you'll be telling me Tymora is dead or going to be killed off as well. Say it aint so! |
| The_King_in_Yellow09-23-07, 05:24 PM | Next you'll be telling me Tymora is dead or going to be killed off as well. Say it aint so! No worries there, she's just tying the knot.................................... ..............With Tyr! |
| Zandilar09-23-07, 06:20 PM | Heya, Holy carp! Will someone please tell me how the Seven Sisters died and when. I guess, technically, Sylune has been (un)dead for a while. Jeez, I know I haven't been paying attention for a while, but damn!... Or are you people just jesting? Thus far: Sylune is "put to rest" by Sharrans in the module Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land Of the others, there has been no word of their fates one way or the other. My guess is that five will survive. Without knowing for certain, I'm guessing that something tragic befalls Qilue given what is said in the prologue of the novel The Orc King. I want to emphasize this point before people go off half-cocked... There has been no word of their fates one way or the other Next you'll be telling me Tymora is dead or going to be killed off as well. Say it aint so! As the poster above me quips - she'll be safe in the House of the Triad. :rolleyes: (Can someone tell me why Sune arranged that stupid thing and why Tymora went along with it? Honestly, I hope she tears herself away from that stupidity and goes home to Brightwater.) @GothicDan - Yeah, that has me puzzled as well. I've seen more than one person make that remark. My guess is that they really don't know them, otherwise they wouldn't be making such... well I'll be polite here... such comments that seem so uninformed. |
| Jon-Rigel09-23-07, 07:29 PM | No worries there, she's just tying the knot.................................... ..............With Tyr! Thanks, King In Yellow. As long as Lady Luck never marries Cthulhu. As for Tyr, I imagine my Lady would drive him mad with all the gambling and sex! And would Tymora stop fooling around with Brandobaris? Now that would surely **** Tyr off to the point of apolplexy. Uhm... all that said, are you people kidding when you talk about this union between Tymora and Tyr? My irony gene isn't working that well today. |
| Jon-Rigel09-23-07, 07:37 PM | Heya, Thus far: Sylune is "put to rest" by Sharrans in the module Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land Of the others, there has been no word of their fates one way or the other. My guess is that five will survive. Without knowing for certain, I'm guessing that something tragic befalls Qilue given what is said in the prologue of the novel The Orc King. I want to emphasize this point before people go off half-cocked... There has been no word of their fates one way or the other As the poster above me quips - she'll be safe in the House of the Triad. :rolleyes: (Can someone tell me why Sune arranged that stupid thing and why Tymora went along with it? Honestly, I hope she tears herself away from that stupidity and goes home to Brightwater.) @GothicDan - Yeah, that has me puzzled as well. I've seen more than one person make that remark. My guess is that they really don't know them, otherwise they wouldn't be making such... well I'll be polite here... such comments that seem so uninformed. Much obliged for the intel, Zandilar. That all sounds very sad and very traumatic. I was in B&N today and almost looked at the Shadowdale book; now I'll have to. Too bad about Sylune. And I hope that Qilue comes out of things okay. She's my favorite of the Sisters, followed by the incomparable Simbul. I read that excerpt from The Orc King. I've worked as a publicist in the publishing biz, and it's Job One to pump up the public before the official release of a product. I think folks should hold off on too many wild, entirely dire speculations until Tuesday when the book hits. And I can see Tymora surviving because the major part of her portflio/ethos is a fundamental force of nature, even more so than Mystra--without magic, there would still be Lucky and unLucky people. I suspect that you can expect that any diety with an intermdiate ot higher rating that can make such a claim has a decent chance of surviving. Thanks again, Z. -JR |
| BrennonGoldeye09-23-07, 08:24 PM | Hmm. |
| MerrikCale09-23-07, 09:40 PM | @GothicDan - Yeah, that has me puzzled as well. I've seen more than one person make that remark. My guess is that they really don't know them, otherwise they wouldn't be making such... well I'll be polite here... such comments that seem so uninformed. Not this again. From a novel's potrayals, these character are basically identical. |
| GothicDan09-23-07, 09:53 PM | No. They are not. Then again, you're a lawyer. I shouldn't expect you to recognize the most minute of differences that a student of particle physics could. ;) BUUURN. |
| johnkretzer09-23-07, 10:14 PM | Not this again. From a novel's potrayals, these character are basically identical. So because a writer(s) can't write you make the assumption that these characters are identical. This is why I hate the Realms novels. |
| Selvarin09-23-07, 10:16 PM | poor blackstaff twins... mom and dad both dead by the time they are 10. Maybe their adoptive dad.. err.. mom, survives ;) That's easy, Danilo Thann raises them. By then he's Khelben's successor, in spirit if not magical might. Oh wait, he has to die because of the Spellplague too, doesn't he? Nice work, WotC. |
| Old Sage09-23-07, 10:16 PM | So because a writer(s) can't write you make the assumption that these characters are identical. This is why I hate the Realms novels.I'm not getting into this again. |
| MerrikCale09-23-07, 10:55 PM | So because a writer(s) can't write you make the assumption that these characters are identical. essentially yes |
| Zandilar09-24-07, 12:45 AM | Heya, Thanks, King In Yellow. As long as Lady Luck never marries Cthulhu. As for Tyr, I imagine my Lady would drive him mad with all the gambling and sex! And would Tymora stop fooling around with Brandobaris? Now that would surely **** Tyr off to the point of apolplexy. :rofl: Yes I can just see that happening... Though Tymora's romance with Brandobaris is not set in stone or confirmed - there are stories of that, there are stories of them pulling pranks together and otherwise seeming to be platonic friends. Halflings would probably say they were romantically involved, but I think humans would beg to differ (I know this deity... err human does!). (Sharess and Tymora... Mmmmm... ;)) Seriously, I can only see the Tyr/Tymora thing ending in tears. The only things they have in common are the letters T, Y, and R. ;) Uhm... all that said, are you people kidding when you talk about this union between Tymora and Tyr? My irony gene isn't working that well today. No, sorry, we aren't kidding you. It really happens... Though what I've read isn't clear on whether or not the marriage actually goes ahead, just that Tymora goes quietly with Tyr to the House of the Triad after he's killed Helm. Tymora should have just kicked him (and Helm both) in the nads and told Sune to bugger off, IMHO, and stayed right where she was. IIRC, Brightwater was basically Tymora's idea, not Sune's. Sune just lent her might to make it happen. |
| MarkusTay6309-24-07, 01:31 AM | Not this again. From a novel's potrayals, these character are basically identical.The differences are purely cosmetic - their personalities are nearly identical. This one's dead, that one's hair goes all 'wavey', that one likes to wear leather, that one sleeps with khelben, that one's a Drow, etc... Sorry, all cosmetic. Show me one who eats small children when she's hungry and I'll say she's different. ;) Keep Dove, Sylune, and and Qilue(sp?)... and perhaps Alustriel... ditch the rest... BORING. I don't really hate any NPCs in the Realms (although Fzoul should loose the cheesy mustache), but I could accept some trimming of the fat. Even Mystra's expendable, as long as they come up with a GOOD back-story for it. In fact, I just realized in the last two days I don't truly hate any of the changes... its the way in which they are being done that looks like plot butchery to me. |
| Selvarin09-24-07, 01:54 AM | The whole thing is ill-concieved (as ill-concieved as a baby in the back of a '79 Chevy--sorry!). Tyr and Tymora...makes no sense. Brandobaris and Tymora? yeah, stick with that. Let some other flighty sort hang with Tyr. I mean really, they messed him up by giving him the blindfold and the missing hand (alluding too much to real-world myths), he was better off as he was. So let him grow a hand, or at least regain his sight and only wear a blindfold when delivering justice in a godly court. Now, away from there...who would be a better mate for Tyr? Why not (gasp) have Siamorphe and Tyr reconcile and get more chummy? Too logical, I know. And how about this? When Cyric slays Mystra, Kelemvor loses his composure--and impartiality. He seeks Hoar's assistance with vengeance against Cyric but, being allied with Shar (and thence to Cyric), refuses. Seeing that Hoar has been under Shar's shadow for too long, Kelemvor slays Hoar and takes up his portfolio. AO chastises him but does not remove his divinity, apparently deciding that (aside from his lack of impartiality over Mystra's death) he will be a better deity of vengeance in the long-run. Just as he judges the dead fairly, so shall he judge who deserves vengeance. |
| Xaean09-24-07, 02:47 AM | Not this again. From a novel's potrayals, these character are basically identical. The only thing that is truely identical is the color of their hair. There might be some author out there who portrayed as almost identical, but there are many FR novels and if you desperatly search for a reason to hate a certain character you will likely find a novel that provides one. Source books like 2E's Seven Sister and many novels as well describe them their wide variety of personalities quite well. |
| MarkusTay6309-24-07, 03:06 AM | Since this is a matter of opinion, I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind here. I could take them or leave them - they matter not at all to me one way or the other. |
| Dark Wizard09-24-07, 03:50 AM | Maybe it's because I haven't read any novels with them so in my opinion they're still okay. The ones I really don't care one way or another: - Alustriel, from what I hear she really does approach an untouchable, ever-loved and adored persona. - Qilue, nothing against her, but she never appeared in anything enough for me to care either way. - Sylune, she's dead already, been enough time to pass on. - Storm, approaches the impossibly charmed quality of Alustriel, but less so. I do like that she seems to have some unpleasant moments in her life bundled up in her. So she's sort of in the middle of my list of must keeps and meh. The ones I would want to stay: - Dove, never really bothered anyone. She's an NPC in Ed's home game, would suck to actively seek her end before Ed feels it's time. Even if his games don't follow the published Realms, there is still the matter of courtesy. - Laeral, I really don't know what it is, but I like her for some reason. Maybe it's because she founded a failed kingdom and has that hanging over her. Or that she was driven crazy once by Aumvor and Myrkul (?). Or maybe she just hung out with Khelben, cool by association. - The Simbul, she's the one sister closest to innately crossing the line of sanity. No magic needed, she fears going berserk just by being herself. If they played on this more and brought the level creep down a few notches, I think she would make a very interesting character. |
| Old Sage09-24-07, 04:13 AM | The differences are purely cosmetic - their personalities are nearly identical.I'm actually a little surprised by this particular statement... especially coming from you Markus. But, as I said earlier, I'm not getting into this again. I'll just say that I've come to value a number of your insights into the Realmslore. Some of which often suggested to me that you possessed a discerning and canny understanding of Ed's Realmslore. What you've said here has really surprised me. *shrug* |
| ElberethSilverleaf09-24-07, 04:42 AM | And I can see Tymora surviving because the major part of her portflio/ethos is a fundamental force of nature, even more so than Mystra--without magic, there would still be Lucky and unLucky people. I suspect that you can expect that any diety with an intermdiate ot higher rating that can make such a claim has a decent chance of surviving. Thanks again, Z. -JR There are no unlucky or lucky prople just like there is no luck. There is merely random chance and probability which is affected by the surrounding circumstances...So I say keep Mystra and off with Tymora! |
| ElberethSilverleaf09-24-07, 04:48 AM | Tyr and Torm marrying and becoming husbands/shield-mates seems more realisitic than what they've got in the works. |
| Selvarin09-24-07, 05:03 AM | Tyr and Torm marrying and becoming husbands/shield-mates seems more realisitic than what they've got in the works. I had that thought as well, had to bite my lip and avoid the temptation to post it. |
| Bonzai09-24-07, 07:12 PM | I don't know... I've seen enough differences among them to establish some distinct behavior. Alustiel is the little miss perfect Sister... You know the one that seems to do "everything" right, and it drives all the other Sisters nuts. It's no suprise that SHE founded the most perfect and enlightened Kingdom in the Northern Hemisphere. It's no suprise that all her people love her, and it becomes one of the few bastions of good in a 100 years. Of course she is too perfect to be smug about it, and thats what keeps the rest of her sisters from hating here. So when they hear about all her achievements they just roll their eyes and say "Of course she did". Sylune.... Well, I've never read about her doing anything while alive. Still, she's been dead and loving it for a long time now. She seems the most laid back of the sisters... I guess once your dead, what is there to be stressed out about? She seemed to spend most of her time amusing herself in small ways, and being an etherial shoulder to cry on for all her sisters. So she is in to all the gossip, and is the first person to go to when you want to find out info on the other Sisters. Storm seems to be the most cranky of the Sisters (I'd use another adjective, but I'm afraid that boards won't let me. Lets just say it rymes with witch). She was very harsh on Galeron in the Return of the Arch Wizard Trilogy, and was even worse in the ToT books. Always seeming to want to believe the worst about some one, she is really quick to pass judgement. As hard nosed as she is, it's a wonder that she hasn't done more.... oh, like ... take out the small Zhentish problem around Shadowdale. Oh wait, the Zhents already took Shadowdale. I bet she already has some one to blaim for that too. Dove always seems to be overshadowed by her Sisters. Alustriel is Miss perfect, the Simbul is the most powerful sorceres ever, Laerial married Khelben, etc.. etc.. So she seems to be the under achiever of the Sisters. She knew she couldn't out do her sisters in magic, so she said screw it, and went and played in the woods instead. Most of her Sisters ended up being Queens, or powerful ladies. Instead she settled for a nice knight in shining armor. She strikes me as the most down to earth of the Sisters. Laeral... what can I say about Laeral? To the public she is a doting wife with a wry sense of humor. She was always there to soften Khelbens hard edges, and appreared to be the most happily married of the Sisters. I said appears. The way she kept Khelben in check, I suspect a much darker side to her. I'm thinking Norbit here. I'm picturing thrown dishes and silver fire. Khelben was powerful, arrogant, and sort of machavelian. To any other woman, he would be "Begon foolish woman, whilst I perform great feats of manly wizardry!". But not to Laeral. All Laeral has to do is give him "the look", and it becomes "yes dear", "right away dear". Maybe the crown of horns was just the excuse they used for a really bad arguement they had early on in their relationship. Quilue probably has the most pressure of all the sisters. It's bad enough having a goddess for a mother, let alone being of a completley different race (imagine having to explain that at dinner partys), and being the chosen of a DROW goddess. Still she handles it fairly well. She is constantly being pulled back and forth between the two goddesses. Half the time, she is out saving the weave, and thwarting some major catastophe or another with her sisters, the other half she is acting as the leader and hope of all good drow wanting to return to the surface. She is long over due for a break down, and when it happens, it won't be pretty (she is drow after all). Finally we have the Simbul. Can we say bi-polar? She is like a menstrual demi god. More power than she knows what to do with, she accomplishes very little, but in spectacular faction. How much has Agalrond improved under her rule? Very very little if at all. The most she can claim, is the death of several hundred Red Wizards. Now if it was Alustriel.... See? They are all very different. :P |
| Dark Wizard09-24-07, 07:25 PM | A dysfunctional sort of functional with strong willful personalities, sex and violence; sounds like the pitch to a new HBO show. |
| Zandilar09-24-07, 07:59 PM | Heya, Tyr and Tymora...makes no sense. Brandobaris and Tymora? yeah, stick with that. Let some other flighty sort hang with Tyr. I mean really, they messed him up by giving him the blindfold and the missing hand (alluding too much to real-world myths), he was better off as he was. The missing hand actually makes sense, since Tyr is an interloper deity and his origin is the Norse pantheon. Let us just forget for the moment that the Norse deity of Justice was Forsetti, not Tyr. ;) We could do without the "blind justice" motif though. Tyr and Torm marrying and becoming husbands/shield-mates seems more realisitic than what they've got in the works. Now that I would like to see! :) Finally we have the Simbul. Can we say bi-polar? She is like a menstrual demi god. More power than she knows what to do with, she accomplishes very little, but in spectacular faction. How much has Agalrond improved under her rule? Very very little if at all. The most she can claim, is the death of several hundred Red Wizards. Now if it was Alustriel.... Call me PMSing, but you could have done without the bolded portion right there. ;) (I'm not, by the way.) Also, I disagree with you completely on Laeral. :) |
| Jon-Rigel09-24-07, 08:07 PM | There are no unlucky or lucky prople just like there is no luck. There is merely random chance and probability which is affected by the surrounding circumstances...So I say keep Mystra and off with Tymora! Hey there Elby, Aren't there times when you're reading a book (or watching a movie) and think, for the umpteenth time, about a particularly loved or unloved, yet seemingly eternally enduring character: "NO WAY!! S/He should not have survived that!" You start thinking about the laws of physics or the mechanics of a certain spell in play in the enoucnter, and you know that the only explanation for the character's survival is... LUCK! It's the Captain Kirk factor. In the Realms, there is even a regional Feat called Luck of Heroes. -J.R. PS: Your blasphemy notwithstanding, when the fell acolytes of Beshaba come for you, the goodly Auspicians of Tymora will still endeavor to save you. :D :angel: |
| Jon-Rigel09-24-07, 08:30 PM | Heya, :rofl: Yes I can just see that happening... Though Tymora's romance with Brandobaris is not set in stone or confirmed - there are stories of that, there are stories of them pulling pranks together and otherwise seeming to be platonic friends. Halflings would probably say they were romantically involved, but I think humans would beg to differ (I know this deity... err human does!). (Sharess and Tymora... Mmmmm... ;)) Seriously, I can only see the Tyr/Tymora thing ending in tears. The only things they have in common are the letters T, Y, and R. ;) No, sorry, we aren't kidding you. It really happens... Though what I've read isn't clear on whether or not the marriage actually goes ahead, just that Tymora goes quietly with Tyr to the House of the Triad after he's killed Helm. Tymora should have just kicked him (and Helm both) in the nads and told Sune to bugger off, IMHO, and stayed right where she was. IIRC, Brightwater was basically Tymora's idea, not Sune's. Sune just lent her might to make it happen. *Prank Suggestion: Here's an idea for a Tymora/Brando prank: Blind Tyr thinks he's getting it on with Tymora, but hey, he's blind, and those delicate little hands are not Tymora's but Brandobaris's! I love that!! Re. Sharess/Tymora hookup: You just know that Brandobaris would sell tickets! Re. Tyr/Tymora compatability: Well, they are both Good aligned gods. If Mary Matalin and James Carvil can make it work in our world, perhaps Tyr and Tymora could give it a reasonable go. The lovers' spats would be epic, and probably funny. And I bet Tymora really knows how to make up--she's got a very high Charisma. Say, is this ostensibly preposterous yenta-ing by Sune also in the Shadowdale book/adventure about which I've been hearing so much? Much Obliged, JR |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-24-07, 09:01 PM | Storm seems to be the most cranky of the Sisters (I'd use another adjective, but I'm afraid that boards won't let me. Lets just say it rymes with witch). She was very harsh on Galeron in the Return of the Arch Wizard Trilogy, and was even worse in the ToT books. Always seeming to want to believe the worst about some one, she is really quick to pass judgement. As hard nosed as she is, it's a wonder that she hasn't done more.... oh, like ... take out the small Zhentish problem around Shadowdale. Oh wait, the Zhents already took Shadowdale. I bet she already has some one to blaim for that too. Storm is my favorite Sister. Whenever Ed writes her, I actually get the impression that she is patient, kind, and very down-to-earth and approachable. The books you've mentioned weren't written by Ed. |
| Selvarin09-24-07, 11:04 PM | I've been around, Zandilar, so I'm well aware thank you very much. ;) I'll settle for him not being blinded. Tyr could always put a shield on the arm with no hand. And Jon, I'd be more amused by having Brandobaris cut the bottom out of Tyr's throne chair and placing a pot of ice water underneath. No god wants a cold wet pair of buns. (A more daring version of leaving-the-seat-up-in-the-bathroom. Usually you have to know someone well enough to understand when they're too preoccupied to look before sitting down.) |
| Bonzai09-25-07, 12:12 AM | Storm is my favorite Sister. Whenever Ed writes her, I actually get the impression that she is patient, kind, and very down-to-earth and approachable. The books you've mentioned weren't written by Ed. Fair enough, but those are the ones that left an impression on me. Oh and Zandi, I didn't mean to offend. However that was the most fitting adjective that came to mind at the time. Help me with a more appropriate adjective and I'll be happy to change it. |
| msatran09-25-07, 12:19 AM | That Tyr/Torm hookup thing? I LOVE it. It makes more sense than what I saw written. |
| MarkusTay6309-25-07, 01:27 AM | But, as I said earlier, I'm not getting into this again. I'll just say that I've come to value a number of your insights into the Realmslore. Some of which often suggested to me that you possessed a discerning and canny understanding of Ed's Realmslore. What you've said here has really surprised me.Sorry, but sometimes I have to be honest with my opinions, even to my own detriment at times. :rolleyes: I know most 'Ed fans' love the Seven sisters, but they never really 'grabbed me', what can I say. I suppose if I actually read the Seven Sisters (which I bought but have never truly read) I would feel differently. But, unfortunately, all of my experience with them has been through authors who haven't done a whole lot to differentiate them in my eyes. I'm not, in any way, saying I am correct in this - it's just the way I feel. Chalk it up to my own predjudices against strong female character types (more honesty) coupled with less-then-steller novel characterizations. Damn shame - they got rid of the only one I really think stood out from the pack. :( |
| Old Sage09-25-07, 01:51 AM | I suppose if I actually read the Seven Sisters (which I bought but have never truly read) I would feel differently.Then I would suggest you find the time to do so. Because you're depriving yourself of some truly inspiring Ed-crafted Realmslore. ;) |
| MarkusTay6309-25-07, 01:54 AM | As soon as I finish my shiney new GhotR. ;) |
| Jon-Rigel09-25-07, 08:59 AM | And Jon, I'd be more amused by having Brandobaris cut the bottom out of Tyr's throne chair and placing a pot of ice water underneath. No god wants a cold wet pair of buns. (A more daring version of leaving-the-seat-up-in-the-bathroom. Usually you have to know someone well enough to understand when they're too preoccupied to look before sitting down.) Selvy, That's a great sounding prank. I can imagine Tyr's furious roar, as he clumsily tries to lever himself of his throne with his one hand. I mean, he could just Teleport off, but I'd like to imagine he'd be so furious, he'd forget. Good thing Brado is a good hider--I'd hate to see anything permananetly bad happen to the little guy. Glad I read your reply before my morning coffee, else I'd have had to blame you for the laughing spit-up on my keyboard. JR |
| Rauric09-25-07, 10:53 AM | Then I would suggest you find the time to do so. Because you're depriving yourself of some truly inspiring Ed-crafted Realmslore. ;) I didn't care for this book at all. I like some of Ed's books but others just leave me :weep: . Still, I love anything he does when it comes to game lore. The first and second Elminster books were great, I think his Daughter book was ok, but Spellfire and 7Sisters were just not appealing to me. Anyway the FR should at least keep El and the Sisters around as high level NPC's. A DM never needs to use them, but they should be left in the Realms. |
| Zandilar09-25-07, 08:16 PM | Heya, And Jon, I'd be more amused by having Brandobaris cut the bottom out of Tyr's throne chair and placing a pot of ice water underneath. No god wants a cold wet pair of buns. (A more daring version of leaving-the-seat-up-in-the-bathroom. Usually you have to know someone well enough to understand when they're too preoccupied to look before sitting down.) LOL! Poor Tyr... but he's so stuffy, he just asks for such things to happen... Oh and Zandi, I didn't mean to offend. However that was the most fitting adjective that came to mind at the time. Help me with a more appropriate adjective and I'll be happy to change it. You could have just left it at bipolar. :) We all got it from that, I'm sure. *Prank Suggestion: Here's an idea for a Tymora/Brando prank: Blind Tyr thinks he's getting it on with Tymora, but hey, he's blind, and those delicate little hands are not Tymora's but Brandobaris's! I love that!! :eek: That's not such a nice prank! Re. Sharess/Tymora hookup: You just know that Brandobaris would sell tickets! :rolleyes: He would if he could find them. You never know with Sharess, though. She might like the idea. However, I should just point out that when two ladies are... ahem... together that way, they're not doing it for the benefit of any males who might happen to be spying on them, and 9 times out of 10, they're not interested in a male joining in. (If Sharess did object, and she knew Brandobaris was watching (and she would, as she's the goddess of pleasure, and I'm pretty sure she's more than capable of sensing pleasure), then he needs to watch out! Especially if Tymora found out too!) Re. Tyr/Tymora compatability: Well, they are both Good aligned gods. If Mary Matalin and James Carvil can make it work in our world, perhaps Tyr and Tymora could give it a reasonable go. The lovers' spats would be epic, and probably funny. And I bet Tymora really knows how to make up--she's got a very high Charisma. She has a high Charisma, yes. But the first ingredient in any true marriage (from my completely biased point of view) is love. If she doesn't love him, or if he doesn't love her, then it's just not going to work. We'll end up with two miserable deities, and probably infidelity from Tymora... Which is something Tyr wouldn't abide (though I suppose Lawful doesn't necessarily mean monogamous, it's just more likely he'd want some kind of formal, in writing arrangement, where as Tymora is more likely to do things on the spur of the moment without any thought towards her "contract" with Tyr). If I'm brutally honest, a good portion of my upset (aside from the out of character actions from Sune, Tymora, Tyr, and Helm) is because I really don't want to see Tymora tied down to any particular male deity. If she's single, I'm in a far better position to play with her love life. I normally chafe at any of my favorites being tied to a man, because if I am writing femslash about them I need to find ways of getting their man out of the picture - which means I usually don't bother... it kills the fun. :( Say, is this ostensibly preposterous yenta-ing by Sune also in the Shadowdale book/adventure about which I've been hearing so much? Just AGHotR. It is preposterous for a couple of reasons... which I think I've mentioned before. (You know, Tymora meekly going along with a political marriage arranged by the goddess of love.) I honestly think Tymora would have nipped things in the bud. She's a good goddess, and she knows that she's fickle by nature. She wouldn't want to hurt Tyr, and so she'd have just turned it down in the first place to save them both heartache down the track. (I might add, Tyr should have said "no" to it too - given he has a wisdom of 40. He should know full well what a marriage to Tymora would involve... Tymora's got 28 wisdom, and that's good enough for the same realization too, IMHO.) Storm is my favorite Sister. Whenever Ed writes her, I actually get the impression that she is patient, kind, and very down-to-earth and approachable. The books you've mentioned weren't written by Ed. I'm sure she has a temper, but you're right. Those novels in which she appears written by people other than Ed seem to focus on her temper (she's Storm, she must be tempestuous by nature!), and not on her virtues. Does anyone else think Storm was acting completely out of character during the Avatar novel Shadowdale? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-25-07, 08:40 PM | I'm sure she has a temper, but you're right. Those novels in which she appears written by people other than Ed seem to focus on her temper (she's Storm, she must be tempestuous by nature!), and not on her virtues. Yeah, that's the problem. Storm does have a temper, but if she's being written as if she is stuck in a never-ending bad mood, something's wrong. Also, she seems to me to be playful, even when matters are pretty serious. What I found off-putting about Storm's portrayal in Farthest Reach (The Last Mythal series) was how unrelentingly grim she was whenever she was on stage, although at least she wasn't made out to be a b*tch. No one writes her the way Ed does, IMO. |
| MerrikCale09-25-07, 09:38 PM | Then I would suggest you find the time to do so. Because you're depriving yourself of some truly inspiring Ed-crafted Realmslore. ;) what makes you say that? :) |
| Old Sage09-25-07, 10:24 PM | Quiet you! ;) Seriously though, as I said, 'tis some truly inspiring Ed-crafted Realmslore. The Seven Sisters does much to not only elaborate on the shared origins of each of the Seven Sisters... but delves into the personal elements shaping each of them into the unique and interesting characters they have become. |
| MerrikCale09-25-07, 10:33 PM | I sense an arguement between myself and Old Sage on the merits of Ed Greenwood's fiction |
| Selvarin09-25-07, 10:45 PM | The Seven Sisters 2e supplement is pretty decent, even if one can't get into the novelization of the characters (either by Ed or anyone else). The best way to handle it is to treat it as, well, one writer reporting what he/she sees from a distance. It's all in the perception. So in the end I mentally gloss over and rewrite what doesn't jibe or impress. |
| MerrikCale09-25-07, 10:47 PM | The Seven Sisters 2e supplement is pretty decent, even if one can't get into the novelization of the characters (either by Ed or anyone else). The best way to handle it is to treat it as, well, one writer reporting what he/she sees from a distance. It's all in the perception. So in the end I mentally gloss over and rewrite what doesn't jibe or impress. Actually, I found the Seven Sisters one of the more palatable books by Ed. Even if the characters are pretty much all the same..... |
| Selvarin09-25-07, 11:17 PM | I liked that game supplement as well, but treatment of the characters in actual novels and elsewhere tends to vary. Some are used just as name plates to fill in, sometimes they're handled very well. The reasons are myriad. |
| MarkusTay6309-25-07, 11:27 PM | The problem is that when I bought it, I started reading it for a little while before I went to bed. I've never felt the urge to pick it back up again, and I remember almost nothing of what I read (or even how much). Drow of the Underdark I read cover-to-cover, so it's not the author, just the material. :rolleyes: I sense an arguement between myself and Old Sage on the merits of Ed Greenwood's fictionI love the man's imagination, but I would have to agree that some of his books are hit or miss. I finished Harry Potter (800+ pages?) in 15 hours, yet it took me a week to get through Elminster's daughter. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it, but it just couldn't hold my attention for long periods. If you've ever started reading a book one night, and suddenly found the sun has come up, you know that one is a winner. And I honestly can't put my finger on what makes them so. :confused: |
| Old Sage09-25-07, 11:41 PM | I sense an arguement between myself and Old Sage on the merits of Ed Greenwood's fictionI've no interest in another debate. I'm content to continuing assuming, as I've said before, that your own perspectives on Ed's fiction derive solely from a misconceived dislike of his writing style. You've already proven that with some of the points you have made to support your opinions in previous discussions about Ed's characterisation of the Seven Sisters. A full and thorough reading of the appearances of ALL the Seven Sisters in the entirety of the Realmslore published, including everything Ed's written about them at Candlekeep, hints at the amount of differentiation and diversity established for the characters themselves. As well as how they've each developed, and grown into the individual characters we now read about. There's no satisfyingly accurate support for one to claim otherwise. Especially when there's 20 years worth of Realmslore on the subject [not to mention Ed's own personal notes about their development in his home campaign], that supports Ed's efforts to clearly make these characters as individual as possible. |
| Selvarin09-25-07, 11:49 PM | I can point to two things that are both strengths and weaknesses in their own right: 1) Characters--usually too darn many in the novels which don't add much to the main story or plot threads. The Waterdeep novel he co-wrote is a prime example. It felt like I was getting whipped back and forth. Which group? Who? When? Same goes for the first Knights of Myth Dranno book. 2) Detail--too much clutter, unfortunately. Really, some of it is great for a game supplement but bad for a novel. You know, I can read a Paul Kemp book from end to end till 4 AM in the morning. I did the same when it came to books in the War o/t Spider Queen and Lady Penitent trilogies. I don't notice as much literary 'noise', I can keep everything straight. When reading a Greenwood novel sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in a carriage ride with a gossipy old aunt who can't stop remarking about this shop and that shop, who's wearing what, and so on...when all I asked for was the name of the person who dropped off a letter for me on her doorstep this morning. |
| Mula09-26-07, 12:52 PM | I honestly think Tymora would have nipped things in the bud. She's a good goddess, and she knows that she's fickle by nature. She wouldn't want to hurt Tyr, and so she'd have just turned it down in the first place to save them both heartache down the track. (I might add, Tyr should have said "no" to it too - given he has a wisdom of 40. He should know full well what a marriage to Tymora would involve... Tymora's got 28 wisdom, and that's good enough for the same realization too, IMHO.)On the other hand, the marriage does have the backing of the Goddess of Love. That should count for something. Goddess. Of love. (And a greater one too.) |
| MarkusTay6309-26-07, 01:42 PM | Sage, in defense of the people who don't care for them, It is most likely do to the inept handling of them by authors. I read a lot of FR novels, but only a few of Ed's, and mostly ones without chosen in them (rare). So without reading all of Ed's replies at the keep (which I and others haven't), or reading the Seaven Sisters, one can easily surmise that they are nothing more then 'cosmic muppets'. Case in point - Alustriel's near-useless appearance in Blackstaff. She could have been replaced with any of the sisters, or left out entirely, and it would have made no difference what-so-ever in the story. I also detested Elminster's 'cavalier' attitude toward Khelben dying in that same novel, so mayhap only Ed should be writing Ed's characters. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-26-07, 02:25 PM | When reading a Greenwood novel sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in a carriage ride with a gossipy old aunt who can't stop remarking about this shop and that shop, who's wearing what, and so on...when all I asked for was the name of the person who dropped off a letter for me on her doorstep this morning. Understood, but I personally enjoy all those details, because it makes me feel more immersed in the setting (which, I have to admit, is one reason why I read FR books to begin with). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-26-07, 02:27 PM | On the other hand, the marriage does have the backing of the Goddess of Love. That should count for something. Goddess. Of love. (And a greater one too.) It could also just mean that the plot wasn't well thought out. Why should we just assume it all makes sense somehow? A good story should make some sense all by itself. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-26-07, 02:34 PM | Sage, in defense of the people who don't care for them, It is most likely do to the inept handling of them by authors. I read a loy of FR novels, but only a few of Ed's, and mostly ones without chosen in them (rare). So without reading all of Ed's replies at the keep (which I and others haven't), or reading the Seaven Sisters, one can easily surmise that they are nothing more then 'cosmic muppets'. True--notice how many negative comments about Storm (not just right here and now, either) are prompted by books like the Avatar Trilogy. As for just not liking Ed's work? Well, as I've said before not everyone is going to like what he writes--it's a given. No one can please everybody. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-26-07, 02:37 PM | Case in point - Alustriel's near-useless appearance in Blackstaff. She could have been replaced with any of the sisters, or left out entirely, and it would have made no difference what-so-ever in the story. Well, Silverymoon is near the High Moor, and the purpose of the events in that novel are very much in line with what Alustriel wants for Silverymoon (and, for that matter, the world). I could never have pictured, say, the Simbul in Alustriel's role there. I also detested Elminster's 'cavalier' attitude toward Khelben dying in that same novel, so mayhap only Ed should be writing Ed's characters. This is just me, but I didn't think Elminster had a cavalier attitude towards Khelben's death. He cracked some jokes here and there, but that's not quite the same thing. |
| Duedaine09-26-07, 04:56 PM | When did mystra die? In what book? Who's tending the weave now that she's gone? |
| MarkusTay6309-26-07, 05:16 PM | Well, Silverymoon is near the High Moor, and the purpose of the events in that novel are very much in line with what Alustriel wants for Silverymoon (and, for that matter, the world). I could never have pictured, say, the Simbul in Alustriel's role there.But she really didn't DO anything - it was basically just a useless cameo - which is why people have the bad opinion about them. I could have pictured the Simbul there, for no other reason then she likes to meddle in stuff whenever El is involved. Of course, Qilue would have been a GOOD choice, given that they were bringing back a city from an ancient Dark Elven Kingdom... Oh wait... thats right... none of the people who actually lived there were brought back... :uh-huh: I know... I just can't let it go... :rolleyes: This is just me, but I didn't think Elminster had a cavalier attitude towards Khelben's death. He cracked some jokes here and there, but that's not quite the same thing.Right - one of his oldest friends, a fellow Harper and ex-pupil, was going to die (or was already dead), and he was making jokes. I understand a certain detachment after centuries of watching everyone and everything you love die, but I thought it was in bad taste and not really in keeping with El's charcter Just my opinion, that's all. No two people will read the same story and walk away with the same thing in their heads - it's human nature. And I also enjoyed the novel, despite its flaws. ;) |
| Zandilar09-26-07, 06:04 PM | Heya, On the other hand, the marriage does have the backing of the Goddess of Love. That should count for something. Goddess. Of love. (And a greater one too.) But she arranged a marriage that had... well... NO LOVE IN IT. Why? Because she needed to address the balance between Brightwater and the House of the Triad. So for political reasons. So she arranged a loveless political marriage. That is why it makes no sense. |
| Zandilar09-26-07, 06:07 PM | When did mystra die? In what book? Who's tending the weave now that she's gone? I think I'm going to have to make a cut and paste for this. This is something we've been talking about on these boards for a couple of weeks now, and you'll find all you need to know by reading some of the threads going around. But since you ask, here's the short of it... Where? In A Grand History of the Realms, in the last 10 pages. What? Mystra Dies. Weave Dies. No Weave. |
| Selvarin09-26-07, 09:02 PM | Understood, but I personally enjoy all those details, because it makes me feel more immersed in the setting (which, I have to admit, is one reason why I read FR books to begin with). Which is why I like all the extra padding in the game supplements, even though that's been limited due to the desire for more crunch. The sequel to 'Spellfire' (as another example) felt like an on-the-run lecture on Realms lore as opposed to a real adventure. Too much was squeezed in. One can either have a novel that has a story that can be followed without overburdening or one can have a fluffy game supplement with short story snippets to mentally illustrate things better. In other words, keep the peanut butter out of the barbecue sauce, and vice-versa. |
| GothicDan09-26-07, 09:50 PM | But she really didn't DO anything - it was basically just a useless cameo - which is why people have the bad opinion about them. I personally hate novels where everything is "useful" - driven solely by "pushing the plot/theme/whatever." |
| MarkusTay6309-26-07, 11:23 PM | I personally hate novels where everything is "useful" - driven solely by "pushing the plot/theme/whatever."I understand that, and usually feel the same way. However, the seven sisters are almost always used in such a manner, so people have developed a poor opinion of them. "oh, its one of those uber-powerful silver-haired chicks again..." I personally have never read a novel that had one as a main character, so my perceptions are tainted by these 'pop-in, do something spectacular, and pop-out again' scenarios. Case in point - Alustriel's grandiose cameo in the Hunter's Blade trilogy. |
| MerrikCale09-26-07, 11:34 PM | I understand that, and usually feel the same way. However, the seven sisters are almost always used in such a manor, so people have developed a poor opinion of them. "oh, its one of those uber-powerful silver-haired chicks again..." I personally have never read a novel that had one as a main character, so my perceptions are tainted by these 'pop-in, do something spectacular, and pop-out again' scenarios. Case in point - Alustriel's grandiose cameo in the Hunter's Blade trilogy. Stormlight was actually decent |
| MarkusTay6309-26-07, 11:43 PM | Why is it I only notice my typos when someone else quotes them? :confused: I'm working my way through a bunch of older novels now, so it will be awhile before I'm up to that. Also, since starting the WoT series, I have promised myself I would never, EVER read a series that wasn't already completed. Case in point - I read The Sellswords AFTER RotP came out. ;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-27-07, 01:27 PM | But she really didn't DO anything - it was basically just a useless cameo - which is why people have the bad opinion about them. I could have pictured the Simbul there, for no other reason then she likes to meddle in stuff whenever El is involved. Ah, well, personally I liked it that Alustriel showed up. So for me, it wasn't useless. And yes, it might have been nice and have made sense if some of the other Sisters were there (Storm, Qilue), but oh well. Just my opinion, that's all. No two people will read the same story and walk away with the same thing in their heads - it's human nature. And I also enjoyed the novel, despite its flaws. ;) Don't worry, you should know by now that I don't slap people down just because they got a different impression than I did.:) If you said you hated the novel, I wouldn't care (it's your right to). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-27-07, 01:37 PM | One can either have a novel that has a story that can be followed without overburdening or one can have a fluffy game supplement with short story snippets to mentally illustrate things better. Here's my take on things. Obviously, the first priority of a novel is to tell a story in the best way possible (that means different things to different people, of course). But reading a story isn't just about finding and digesting its "point". It's also about the experience a reader has while reading it. Certain details may not be absolutely necessary to tell a story, but they absolutely add to the pleasure I feel as I read through a novel and immerse myself in the novel's world. Granted, that doesn't mean you should detract from the story too much (again, that means different things to different people). But I do think something is lost when rich, enjoyable details get edited out. On Candlekeep.com, I asked Paul Kemp why a certain character I liked was never mentioned at all in his recent novels, and he replied that the main reason was due to space--having to fit the whole tale into 340-odd pages. Now don't get me wrong, I DON'T want FR novels to turn into telephone books, but sometimes I wonder about what neat story threads we miss out on because of the space requirements. |
| Zandilar09-27-07, 06:38 PM | Heya, I understand that, and usually feel the same way. However, the seven sisters are almost always used in such a manner, so people have developed a poor opinion of them. "oh, its one of those uber-powerful silver-haired chicks again..." I personally have never read a novel that had one as a main character, so my perceptions are tainted by these 'pop-in, do something spectacular, and pop-out again' scenarios. Alustriel was pivotal to a particular plot point of Blackstaff, though. She was the messenger who told Khelben that his wife was pregnant with twins, something Khelben hadn't known to that point. Alustriel was probably the best of the Seven to deliver that news. Qilue was not appropriate in that role, IMHO, because I suspect she would have been quite scathing and angry towards Khelben, especially with his planned sacrifice, that would leave his children fatherless before they were even born. Storm Silverhand is not the only Chosen with a temper. |
| Selvarin09-27-07, 07:20 PM | Yes and the point in the EG/EC Waterdeep novel seemed to be about showing what a hustle-and-bustle place Waterdeep is, with all its schemings and the various groups doing what they were doing. This is one instance where it might've been better as a two-parter or a trilogy. |
| Mula09-30-07, 12:01 AM | Heya, But she arranged a marriage that had... well... NO LOVE IN IT. Why? Because she needed to address the balance between Brightwater and the House of the Triad. So for political reasons. So she arranged a loveless political marriage. That is why it makes no sense. I'm seeing it more like Sune arranging the marriage in order to create more love - she's creating a relationship, and as the goddess of love, it will work! Or something like that. :) Sune's your typical matchmaker. The thing that separates her is her divinity. She really CAN make those matches work. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-30-07, 12:08 AM | I'm seeing it more like Sune arranging the marriage in order to create more love - she's creating a relationship, and as the goddess of love, it will work! Or something like that. :) Sune's your typical matchmaker. The thing that separates her is her divinity. She really CAN make those matches work. Even if that's true, it's still built on a shaky premise--that Siamorphe (a demipower) moving house creates some "imbalance" among the planes, and Tymora (an *intermediate* power) MUST marry (not hang out with--marry) Tyr in order to correct this vague imbalance. |
| Dark Wizard09-30-07, 12:15 AM | And since when were CG and LG deities so caught up with the notion of balance? |
| Mula09-30-07, 01:36 AM | Even if that's true, it's still built on a shaky premise--that Siamorphe (a demipower) moving house creates some "imbalance" among the planes, and Tymora (an *intermediate* power) MUST marry (not hang out with--marry) Tyr in order to correct this vague imbalance.Well, yeah, it's forced as hell, but I wasn't arguing against that. :P Edit: Though I can sort of see Sune trying to play things in her favor and gain more power, being a deity. Kind of intrinsic to gods (but I can understand other views on this). |
| Dark Wizard09-30-07, 02:21 AM | Gaining power is probably a far secondary to being what they are, which is very heavily based on their portfolios. If gaining power disrupts their sync with their portfolios then the gods, as they seem to work in the setting, start to shift away from their current self or identity. That's probably not the wisest move, trade power over something familiar for power over something else with unknown effects. (Strangely, that's how WotC operates in reality.) The attempt to gain power doesn't quite work either. Obviously because Sune had to mediate some exchange it means that any god moving from one major divine plane to another causes a flow of power. It would have been in Sune's best interest to have more deities on her plane. So she should have never bothered to make up for Brightwater gaining a new goddess. I suppose it worked out in the end. She traded an intermediate deity for another, gained a minor deity to her side, and Tyr lost an intermediate deity ally who lived on his plane. Tyr and buddies really got the short end of the stick. Actually, this whole think leads to me to postulate that Sune has actually fallen to evil. Everything in the Tyr vs. Helm struggle lead to gains on her part and losses on Tyr's part. Was it Cyric's manipulation or was Sune in one it? Has Shar finally gotten to Sune's vanity? Only 4E can tell. |
| Meldread09-30-07, 02:32 AM | Actually, this whole think leads to me to postulate that Sune has actually fallen to evil. Everything in the Tyr vs. Helm struggle lead to gains on her part and losses on Tyr's part. Was it Cyric's manipulation or was Sune in one it? Has Shar finally gotten to Sune's vanity? Only 4E can tell. That would totally rock and make the whole situation make so much more sense. I speculated that somehow Cyric had manipulated Sune into doing what she did, but it would be even better if Shar had somehow brought her over to the dark side. Brightwater becomes Darkwater. :P |
| Dark Wizard09-30-07, 02:35 AM | Does that mean pirates can now ply the shadowy tides of that plane? |
| Meldread09-30-07, 02:51 AM | :rofl: Yes, but now that it has become Darkwater, we need a young Prince and 13 mystical treasures to restore the place. To bad we'll only get up to eight and the campaign will be canceled. :( |
| Zandilar09-30-07, 03:15 AM | Heya, Gaining power is probably a far secondary to being what they are, which is very heavily based on their portfolios. If gaining power disrupts their sync with their portfolios then the gods, as they seem to work in the setting, start to shift away from their current self or identity. That's probably not the wisest move, trade power over something familiar for power over something else with unknown effects. (Strangely, that's how WotC operates in reality.) The attempt to gain power doesn't quite work either. Obviously because Sune had to mediate some exchange it means that any god moving from one major divine plane to another causes a flow of power. It would have been in Sune's best interest to have more deities on her plane. So she should have never bothered to make up for Brightwater gaining a new goddess. I suppose it worked out in the end. She traded an intermediate deity for another, gained a minor deity to her side, and Tyr lost an intermediate deity ally who lived on his plane. Tyr and buddies really got the short end of the stick. Actually, this whole think leads to me to postulate that Sune has actually fallen to evil. Everything in the Tyr vs. Helm struggle lead to gains on her part and losses on Tyr's part. Was it Cyric's manipulation or was Sune in one it? Has Shar finally gotten to Sune's vanity? Only 4E can tell. Brightwater has always been a cooperative plane. Sune may have been the resident Greater Power, and without her it may not have worked, but the actual main motivator behind the formation of the plane was TYMORA. I don't see that Sune gains much anyway. She trades a rather powerful Intermediate power for a rather weak demipower and a weak Intermediate (sorry, but Tymora > Ilmater as far as power goes). Perhaps Siamorphe and Ilmater together are as powerful as Tymora, and maybe that makes a balance... Plus she contravenes her own portfolio by trying to arrange a loveless political marriage. Anyway, we don't know if the marriage actually happens after Helm is killed, only that Tymora goes with Tyr to the House of the Triad. Really, I hope she doesn't stay. She doesn't belong there. Maybe Sune has been corrupted by Shar. That'd be right, lets just kill all the non-evil deities and have Shar replace Ao. :raincloud (Sorry, fueled by alcohol and tiredness - not a good combination.) |
| Selvarin09-30-07, 03:27 AM | Let's not mistake half-thought-out concepts for corruption on Sune's part. |
| Meldread09-30-07, 04:13 AM | Brightwater has always been a cooperative plane. Sune may have been the resident Greater Power, and without her it may not have worked, but the actual main motivator behind the formation of the plane was TYMORA. ...and Tymora sullenly slips off into the night with her newest husband (or husband to be) Tyr. Seeing as how Tymora is now gone, pawned away in Sune's schemes... guess who is the undisputed head of Brightwater now? :P Let's not mistake half-thought-out concepts for corruption on Sune's part. How do we know it was only half-thought-out? All we have is a very small little blurb in GHotR. It could be the most ingenious and best story the FR has ever seen for all we know... and like some great stories, when reduced to their most base elements they seem lame. Of course, it could just be lame, but they've been working toward this for years. I know I could perhaps spin a pretty damn good story out of it, one that makes sense. If I can do it, I am sure someone over at WotC can pull it off. |
| Selvarin09-30-07, 04:56 AM | Except, gee, what has Shar not been doing the past few years? That is both far-fetched even for WotC as well as serious over-use of a single deity. They've given every baddy their 15 minutes (Bane, Cyric, etc.), that would seriously be stretching it. It would be more likely that WotC would have Shar take over as Goddess of Magic and that isn't going to happen either. Considering we know exactly why the planes are changing, having Sune get overtaken is NOT a byproduct of WotC scripting. But it's perfectly fine for those in their home-brew who haven't gotten sick and tired of Shar, Monks of the Dark Moon, the Shades, the Dark Weave, Shar's assistance in slaying Mystra, etc., ad nauseum. |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 11:14 AM | I sure did like Shar before WotC got to her. |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 01:53 PM | I like the idea of Sune making a power-play; it would explain much. Thats the kind of creative thinking I think most fans would welcome, instead of more of this "Shar's behind it all" cr@p. Being recently divorced myself, I often equate love with unmitigated evil. :D This whole thing smacks of Trojan Wars to me, with 'the face that launched a thousand ships'. No direct analogies, mind you, but there was love at the center of human and deific conflict. BTW, any psych major can tell you that love is just a conditioned response centered around the base impulse of desire. There are two states of being - one at rest, which we call 'placated', and one of agitation, where something has caught our attention (hunger/food, a mate, a shiney object, etc..) and we therefor covet it. Even animals display this behaviour - the more complicated the brain, the more complicated the behaviour becomes. Simple power is the most human desire, so an anthropomorphic goddess like Sune should examplify this. "Look at me, aren't I pretty" screams 'I want to be the center of attention'. I can see her becoming more self-serving over time, something akin to what happened to Auraushnee when she turned into Lolth. In her vanity, she decided only she was fit to rule - and isn't vanity what Sune is all about? Would make a very interesting storyline - lets just hope Wizards came up with something half as good. |
| Selvarin09-30-07, 02:37 PM | Great, maybe Sune and Sharess can get in a girl-slap hair-pulling fight in the pool of Evergold. Hanali can officiate. |
| Dark Wizard09-30-07, 04:39 PM | My little theory was in jest. I would even say it's too gutsy for WotC to pull off. Their changes seem limited to killing gods, not genuinely changing them. It's easy to kill something and call it a day, it's more involving to change a character and having to deal with the consequences. There's too much of that "old Realms baggage" concept attached, WotC doesn't seem fond of that. Saying that, Markus' idea of Sune just going through a change into something more power-hungry works. She does seem more CN on occasion. We don't know that Tymora will not return to Brightwater, if she does then Sune really does win. Given her major alignment and portfolio differences from Tyr that seems likely. It is no wonder she liked Helm more, I think guardians need luck as much if not more than anyone else. Justice shouldn't be about luck. What I would like to see, Helm's death was a ruse he worked out with Tyr to ferret out some problem or another. Maybe for once Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral will not come across as Lawful Stupid and Lawful Meh, but I think I'm hoping for too much. Before 3e, I barely knew Shar existed. Maybe it was better that way, she was and powerful evil deity for the DM to utilize as necessary. |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 04:49 PM | Great, maybe Sune and Sharess can get in a girl-slap hair-pulling fight in the pool of Evergold. Hanali can officiate.As long as they wear white T-shirts. :P Saying that, Markus' idea of Sune just going through a change into something more power-hungry works.Truth be told, someone else said it first... I just liked the creativity behind it. ;) Maybe for once Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral will not come across as Lawful Stupid and Lawful Meh, but I think I'm hoping for too much.:rofl: "Lawful Meh" - thats a good one. :D Maybe in 4e they will rename FR something like "Mystra's Eternal Tribulations", and we can just call the setting 'MEH' from now on. ;) |
| Selvarin09-30-07, 04:49 PM | The explanations for certain things happening will probably change but the actual changes will largely remain. Helm's job can be done by Torm easily, therefore he's gone. And as tired as some are of Cyric I could see where he's utilized (again) to kill off another deity--a two-for-one in preparation for 4e FR, if you will. (Perhaps he's the one responsible for the misunderstandings between Tyr and Helm.) The Tymora part is way too contrived, as is Siamorphe tromping off to Brightwater, but that can get shaken out. But I don't see anything happening with Sune and Shar. Shar's focused on Mystra and Selune, unless someone else steps directly in her path she will work primarily to undermine those two. In her way of thinking, the rest can wait. |
| Selvarin09-30-07, 04:55 PM | Yeah, t-shirts. And pools. Did I mention I'm partial to redheads? :eek: *looks at the rendition of Sune in F&P* But anyhow... I just thought of something. If only the Greater powers can hold their domains together how will Lolth fare? Being an Intermediate power currently...*hmmm*...Sorry, I'm on several threads so it makes me consider tons of possibles. |
| Dark Wizard09-30-07, 05:21 PM | The explanations for certain things happening will probably change but the actual changes will largely remain. Helm's job can be done by Torm easily, therefore he's gone. I strongly disagree with this. Superficially they appear similar, but they have fundamental differences. If one where to take up the other's job, they would be greatly changed or bring about a great change in how those portfolios are approached. It wouldn't be the same job or the same god. And as tired as some are of Cyric I could see where he's utilized (again) to kill off another deity--a two-for-one in preparation for 4e FR, if you will. (Perhaps he's the one responsible for the misunderstandings between Tyr and Helm.) Heck, most of the gods already think the Tyr vs. Helm thing was Cyric's fault. But anyhow... I just thought of something. If only the Greater powers can hold their domains together how will Lolth fare? Being an Intermediate power currently...*hmmm*...Sorry, I'm on several threads so it makes me consider tons of possibles. I think Lolth got upgraded to greater deity after the War of the Spider Queen. |
| Selvarin09-30-07, 05:38 PM | Yes, the approach would change somewhat but it's not like Torm would become LN. The alignments of the gods themselves have been dictated in 3e somewhat by how the designers view the worshippers. In this case, how many envision LE guardian-priests of Helm? Not to say it isn't or can't, but protection and guardianship seem more benevolent if not outright 'good' portfolios. LN and LG guardian priests are easier to imagine, in my opinion, and it still stands that if Helm is killed Torm would be the most logical choice. If that happens he will become a LG Intermediate Diety, better-placed to oppose Bane in the dark times ahead. I guess I should also mention I have no great stake in this, I just find Torm to be the logical choice and if he took over he'd be a more attractive choice should I create a paladin or guardian-type priest. |
| Meldread09-30-07, 05:39 PM | They made sure Lolth was made a Greater Power VERY recently, and that the Demonweb Pits split off from the Abyss. Mother Lolth is safe, rest assured. :P |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 05:40 PM | She was never officially stated as a Greater power in any novels or books, though. |
| Dark Wizard09-30-07, 06:02 PM | Yes, the approach would change somewhat but it's not like Torm would become LN. The alignments of the gods themselves have been dictated in 3e somewhat by how the designers view the worshippers. In this case, how many envision LE guardian-priests of Helm? Not to say it isn't or can't, but protection and guardianship seem more benevolent if not outright 'good' portfolios. LN and LG guardian priests are easier to imagine, in my opinion, and it still stands that if Helm is killed Torm would be the most logical choice. If that happens he will become a LG Intermediate Diety, better-placed to oppose Bane in the dark times ahead. I guess I should also mention I have no great stake in this, I just find Torm to be the logical choice and if he took over he'd be a more attractive choice should I create a paladin or guardian-type priest. I agree he is the next most logical choice, but that doesn't mean he's perfect or the same as Helm. Helm's take on guardianship was mostly good but there were times when he could go to any means to protect something good, that meant compromising himself a bit. It also allows for the possibility that defense of human areas could come at the expense of other races. It's a far more pragmatic view I think, where as Torm is more of an idealist (like the old cavalier kit compared to the noble warrior kit). Why I felt Helm was a very interesting god especially when he was buddies with Torm but their clergy didn't get along. Of course I'll state very clearly that I do have an interest in how this turns out. Helm was one of my favorite Realms deities. I like Torm too, and I like both of them more so than Tyr who while interesting is a bit bland in my opinion. |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 06:08 PM | She was never officially stated as a Greater power in any novels or books, though. Never officially, but the series was one of the many obvious lead-ins to the 4e cosmology. They made sure Lolth was made a Greater Power VERY recently, and that the Demonweb Pits split off from the Abyss. Mother Lolth is safe, rest assured. :PThats exactly how I feel. When I read the series, I was left with a distasteful feeling of "what purpose did any of THAT serve?" Then all the 4e badness was announced and I said "Ach ha!" (in my best yiddish accent). Now it all makes sense - rather then give us the reasons why Lolth had no problem in the NWO, the SOLD them to us in that self-serving series. Why give away what you can sell, eh? ;) |
| Zandilar09-30-07, 08:57 PM | Heya, I like the idea of Sune making a power-play; it would explain much. Thats the kind of creative thinking I think most fans would welcome, instead of more of this "Shar's behind it all" cr@p. Sune... Chaotic GOOD remember? She wouldn't sell her friends down the river the way she did Tymora. How she managed to convince Tymora that marriage to Tyr was a good idea, I'll never know. Sune is CHAOTIC good. Arranging a political loveless marriage for the purposes of planar balance is a VERY Lawful thing to do. I don't think the designers know what they're doing, and I sincerely hope this whole sham turns out to be one of those things they "tweak" to make more sense. Being recently divorced myself, I often equate love with unmitigated evil. :D I'm sorry to hear that. :( However I sincerely hope you don't mean the latter half of the quote (love is inherently good, don't let Shar's bitterness influence you. ;)). "Look at me, aren't I pretty" screams 'I want to be the center of attention'. I can see her becoming more self-serving over time, something akin to what happened to Auraushnee when she turned into Lolth. In her vanity, she decided only she was fit to rule - and isn't vanity what Sune is all about? I always felt that Sune got the rough end of the stick as far as characterization goes. Sune is NOT about vanity. She's the goddess of BEAUTY, LOVE, and PASSION. It's so easy to trivialize these things (Beauty becomes Vanity, Love becomes self absorbed desire for attention, and Passion becomes sexual only), but they are far more than just those things. Mothers and fathers love their children all the world around, people have passion for their hobbies and their professions, and still others create works of art and beauty that uplift and inspire people. How can you say that Sune is all about vanity? Sune is the goddess who went out of her way to rescue Sharess from Shar, remember. (And I just KNOW someone's going to try and give a CN or CE bent on her doing that too. :rolleyes: ) Would make a very interesting storyline - lets just hope Wizards came up with something half as good. Would make a stupid and very stereotypical story (as well as smacking of sexism/misogyny), and I, for one, don't want to see another deity I like completely trashed thanks. :raincloud Great, maybe Sune and Sharess can get in a girl-slap hair-pulling fight in the pool of Evergold. Hanali can officiate. That wouldn't happen. Sharess is the goddess of felines. As such she's capable of more than just girl-slap hair-pulling. Sune would just snuff Sharess out by looking at her. Gods, what's happened to this forum? Saying that, Markus' idea of Sune just going through a change into something more power-hungry works. She does seem more CN on occasion. We don't know that Tymora will not return to Brightwater, if she does then Sune really does win. Given her major alignment and portfolio differences from Tyr that seems likely. It is no wonder she liked Helm more, I think guardians need luck as much if not more than anyone else. Justice shouldn't be about luck. She does, huh? Nope. I don't see where you get Sune = CN from. Her portfolio is made up of at least ONE virtue that is inherently Good, and it's the most important one - Love. (Yes, all those evil people who love, have the spark of good within them and the chance for redemption if they tried for it.) I agree that Tymora is not likely to stay with Tyr. However, as for her liking Helm more? Helm's LN. His alignment is completely different from Tymora's, and as such, he has no common ground with her. (Tyr does, since he's Good, but his Lawfulness would only rub Tymora up the wrong way, IMHO.) What I would like to see, Helm's death was a ruse he worked out with Tyr to ferret out some problem or another. Maybe for once Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral will not come across as Lawful Stupid and Lawful Meh, but I think I'm hoping for too much. Now that would be an interesting and far more in character idea for them. Perhaps trying to ferret out Shar's influence? Before 3e, I barely knew Shar existed. Maybe it was better that way, she was and powerful evil deity for the DM to utilize as necessary. Not knowing about Shar would be completely in keeping with Shar's character. She is the goddess of secrets, after all. ;) |
| Old Sage09-30-07, 09:26 PM | I always felt that Sune got the rough end of the stick as far as characterization goes. Sune is NOT about vanity. She's the goddess of BEAUTY, LOVE, and PASSION. It's so easy to trivialize these things (Beauty becomes Vanity, Love becomes self absorbed desire for attention, and Passion becomes sexual only), but they are far more than just those things. Mothers and fathers love their children all the world around, people have passion for their hobbies and their professions, and still others create works of art and beauty that uplift and inspire people. How can you say that Sune is all about vanity?Indeed. Sune isn't superficial. The beginning of her "Dogma" section in Faiths & Avatars is evidence enough of that. Vain priests like Adon of the Avatar trilogy exist, but aren't typical. The entire concept of love as Sune champions it, because even the noblest love can be "dirty" at times, can be embodied in the aspects which she supports. As I've said before, "Sune is about how love can lead you to the truest path of your heart's desire... sometimes even if you don't know it yet yourself." Sometimes, we don't see the love we have for another staring us right in the face, because we're consumed with feelings that impose themselves upon the love we should be feeling -- feelings of hatred, of anger, or perhaps, even resentment. This changes the state of what could be a noble love, to something that is "dirty". If the love is meant to be, then it will endure. It will evolve. It will become your true path to your heart's desire. That's hardly fitting for a deity supposedly said to also support the notion of vanity as it exists within the concept of love. |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 09:46 PM | Indeed. Sune isn't superficial. The beginning of her "Dogma" section in Faiths & Avatars is evidence enough of that. Vain priests like Adon of the Avatar trilogy exist, but aren't typical.Another instance of authors ruining people's perceptions. :( Since Adon was my only experience with Sune, I just assumed this was what she was all about. However, I am still bitter (my own problem... I'll get over it), so I can't help but look at women in such a 'biblical' fashion. I still enjoy them from afar, but I will never let another one get to me again. There is much to be said about being alone. :cool: The Ex would NEVER let me hang around forums 24/7. :P Also, I'm not saying 'Sune gone bad' would be a good scenario, just an interesting one. Much more interesting then the current stupidity we are being handed, which doesn't even have any sort of logical reasoning behind it. Who knows, maybe Shar 'infected' Sune somehow with some darkness during the ToT... perhaps with Talona's help (she WAS mortal then, after all). They did say some of what is currently going on started back in the ToT, so it would make sense even though its 'ugly' and loaded with more 'Shadowcrap'. I just want things interesting, like it used to be. Now it seems we are stuck in some sort of perpetual 'meh' machine. |
| Dark Wizard09-30-07, 10:04 PM | Gods, what's happened to this forum? The Spellplague has arrived, a third of us have gone insane :coolcthul, another third have actually become undead or deathless :f:, so only one third of responses can be considered normal :dancin:. Yes, normal people dance perpetually. She does, huh? Nope. I don't see where you get Sune = CN from. Her portfolio is made up of at least ONE virtue that is inherently Good, and it's the most important one - Love. (Yes, all those evil people who love, have the spark of good within them and the chance for redemption if they tried for it.) Not sure, it's just a vibe I get from her and her followers. Maybe they haven't emphasized the good aspect of her to the point where I noticed or it overwhelmed the shadier parts of her clergy's portrayal of her. I'm not saying she is CN, just that at times she seems more C than G. And this time, well it's almost neither good or chaotic so maybe that's throwing me off, a lot. I agree that Tymora is not likely to stay with Tyr. However, as for her liking Helm more? Helm's LN. His alignment is completely different from Tymora's, and as such, he has no common ground with her. (Tyr does, since he's Good, but his Lawfulness would only rub Tymora up the wrong way, IMHO.) Maybe. I figured from portfolio (also part of their personality as much as alignment) it might work out better. I always figured there was a softer, more laid back side to Helm, he's kind of like Khelben in a way, except warrior-like and godly. Now that would be an interesting and far more in character idea for them. Perhaps trying to ferret out Shar's influence? That would be great, but it'll never happen. If they ever stopped treating paladin-like gods as dumb, blindly charging, frontal assault idiot tin-cans with swords I could get behind the new Realms. I like the Triad and related gods, I'll even say I copied the Triad and Helm wholesale for my home setting before those gods evolved into their own entities. Not knowing about Shar would be completely in keeping with Shar's character. She is the goddess of secrets, after all. ;) Exactly. WotC could hype up a deity without ever revealing her plans or have her directly involved in anything. That would be one scary deity. "Maybe Shar was involved, or maybe not, or maybe she was, or maybe she wants you to think she was involved only to deny it in your head, but really she was." |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 10:05 PM | I actually kind of liked Adon, but meh. The deities that would make up my 'core' pantheon would be Sune, Sharess, Liiira, Oghma, Azuth, Mystra, Shar, Myrkul, Jergal, and Talos. A little bit of everything, including a healthy dose of Epicureanism. :) That's if I was a human, of course. |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 11:28 PM | Mine would be Arioch, Xiombarg, etc.... :devil: Strangely, I am drawn to this 'new' astral sea and all is cross-planar glory. Too bad it's FAR from original. |
| Mula10-01-07, 12:21 AM | Would make a stupid and very stereotypical story (as well as smacking of sexism/misogyny), and I, for one, don't want to see another deity I like completely trashed thanks. :raincloud Changing Sune into something closer to evil really would make a very cliche story. However, making her just a little rough around the edges could make Sune a little more useable as a storyline catalyst. At the moment, I find her a bit too shallow. This power gathering she seems to be doing (circa 1385 DR) could work out really well. She doesn't have to become a total biyatch - just highlight the slight ruthlessness that's often attributed to deities in mythology. (And while Sune IS good, so is Lathander and his Dawn Cataclysm.) |
| Meldread10-01-07, 03:34 AM | Zandilar- Assuming that a deity at least to some degree embodies their portfolio's Sune has two that make her seriously vulnerable: Love and Passion. There cannot be two more easily manipulated things in the world. How many times has someone done something that they later regretted in the name of love or passion? If WotC rewrites Cyric to actually be capable of embodying his portfolio's, and makes a complete break from the "evil must be stupid, incapable, and never win" policies of TSR - he could totally screw Sune over easily. Out of all the deities in the Pantheon she's the one with the biggest 'Please manipulate me into doing your bidding' sign on her forehead. --- Possible Scenario: Cyric being the god of illusions, deception, lies, and intrigue pretends to begin to fall in love with Sune, smitten by her beauty. He showers her with praise, lies, but to her ears sound like truths. He approaches her noble side first, and Sune - while not truly loving Cyric is led to see a possibility within him for redemption. Love conquers all in the mind of Sune, and love is something that had always eluded Cyric in his mortal life. Perhaps if she showed him kindness and compassion, she could turn him away from the darkness and toward the light. She begins meeting with Cyric in secret, comforting him, showing him endless amounts of beauty and trying to teach him that there is a better way of doing things. Cyric listens and pretends to be interested, which in turn fills Sune with hope. It is then that Cyric, pretending to be on the road to redemption, begins to wish to give "back" to Sune all that she has given to him. Sune, not wanting to seem to push him away, is suspect at first, but Cyric's advice proves useful in dealing with a few minor situations. A bond of trust begins to form, and Sune can almost feel a bit of love forming in her heart for Cyric. As this all happens Cyric and Shar plot together moving things around like pawns on a chess board, all in the preparation to destroy Mystra. The stage is being set for the grand finale. It is at this point that Cyric begins to covertly play to Sune's vanity. Believing him on the road to redemption, Sune feels empowered. You know the feeling of when you first fall in love? That feeling that makes you feel almost invincible? The feeling that just makes everything seem brighter, smell sharper, the world - it just seems a better place over all? Well magnify that feeling a thousand times for a goddess of love and passion. Feeling that she had just won a major victory against the forces of evil - Sune feels all powerful, as if she can take on anything. She is FULL of passion and is just ready to make the world right. Cyric manipulates those good intentions and persuades her to speak to Siamorphe about relocating to Brightwater. He points to her growing power in Tethyr and persuades Sune that it would give her great amounts of influence - and thus more chances to spread her goodness - if she would perform this act. He makes some suggestions on what Sune should say to Siamorphe to persuade her as well... and it is successful. Siamorphe relocates. Tyr grows angry at the defection and claims that it upsets the balance. Sune tries to speak to him, to explain her position on the matter, but Tyr will hear none of it. He wants Siamorphe to return. However, she refuses and Sune does not wish for her to leave. They seem at an impasse, when Sune turns to Cyric - whom her love for has grown for comfort. Cyric "thinks" about it and makes the suggestion that perhaps she should encourage a marriage between Tymora and Tyr. In doing so it would balance out the power between the planes and strengthen the alliance between Brightwater and the House of the Triad. At first Sune is reluctant to do such a thing. How could she ask such a thing of one of her closest friends? However, Cyric can make even the most implausible things seem plausible, and Sune has already been caught up into his web of lies and deception. What she does not know is that Shar has informed Cyric of a quiet but growing love between Tymora and Helm. They have kept it secret, even from Sune, and Helm begins to feel something for Tymora that he hasn't felt since the death of Murdane. Tymora sees a softer side within Helm, and she grants him good luck in all things he does. Sune approaches Tyr with the proposal to which he agrees that it would satisfy the terms and rebalance the shift in power. Sune then approaches Tymora who is reluctant and tells Sune that she needs time to think about it. When Tymora approaches Helm with what has happened he feels challenged. Helm approaches Tyr in a confrontational manor in which in no certain terms he proclaims Tymora as his love and only his love. She will not be given to him under any circumstances. However, Tyr proclaims that the deal has already been made. Helm makes it clear that Tymora is under his protection and that she will not leave Brightwater to be his wife. Tyr then makes it clear to Helm that will stay away from his wife. (As it is very much illegal to sleep with another man's wife, punishable by death.) Helm boldly proclaims that it is too late, that Tymora is already his and that he will never have her. That is when the battle begins and Helm is slain. When the news reaches Brightwater Sune is stunned and shattered. Tymora is devastated. It is a shock to the senses that a simple misunderstanding could have resulted in such a situation. However, unknown to Sune, Cyric had managed to steal from her a magical bottle of her perfume. Being the deity of illusions and lies, along with that perfume it allowed him to masquerade around as Sune. In that illusionary form he approached Tyr, after Sune had spoken to him and delivered into his hands a marriage contract. A contract which he had forged the name of Tymora. Tyr later arrives in Brightwater and boldly displays the contract to Tymora. He claims that he has come for her. It is then that the plot begins to unravel. However, just as word of Cyric's involvement begins to leak out and a scandal begins to surround Sune, Shar appears to Sune and bids for her watch something. She peers into a pool of darkness, and sees what appears to be herself walking through the halls of Dweomerheart. The "fake" her approaches Mystra - who has her back turned. She bids Sune greetings and questions what brings her to Dweomerheart. Sune responds, "I've come to give you a beautiful present. It is something I have planned for a very long time." Mystra begins to turn slightly, a bit taken back and as she does so blades appear within the hands of Sune and run Mystra through. Her eyes widen in shock as the illusion shatters revealing Cyric who smiles at her dying form, "I hope you enjoy it." He laughs and fades from Dweomerheart as Mystra's essence explodes, killing Savras as he appears within feet of her form to warn of impending danger, and hurling Velsharoon and Azoth into the Astral Plane. Dweomerheart collapses, and with Mystra's death brings an end to the Weave. Shar smiles a cold smile over Sune who stares disbelievingly at what unfolded before her. Shock. Horror. A sense of numbness pervades her as the realization of the part she had played sinks in. A sense of loss fills her, and she begins to weep for the part she played. Shar begins to inform her of where she went wrong - the inanity of hope and even she is not beyond her touch. She then fades to leave Sune alone, to allow the suffering to fully sink in. As the reality of all that has happened begins to sink into the minds of the gods Tymora leaves Brightwater to join Tyr, heartbroken that her love had been slain by the foolishness of her friend. Sune begins to feel isolated and alone... As she experiences love that ends badly. This is a perfectly conceivable scenario. Just as Lathander is doomed to repeat the same mistakes again and again, so too is Sune doomed by her faults. She is forever doomed to believe that Love conquers all, and that Love can redeem even the blackest of souls. Just as Lathander is forever doomed to believe in renewal and rebirth, and Cyric forever doomed to lie, deceive and to murder. |
| Zandilar10-01-07, 07:49 AM | Heya, Zandilar- Assuming that a deity at least to some degree embodies their portfolio's Sune has two that make her seriously vulnerable: Love and Passion. There cannot be two more easily manipulated things in the world. How many times has someone done something that they later regretted in the name of love or passion? Love is also a strength, as is passion. (Note one of the two latin phrases in my sig. ;)) On to the plot holes... Sune has portfolio sense with regards to love. Cyric is only one DvR higher than Sune, and thus may not be able to completely obscure her portfolio sense. In other words: Sune would sense there is no true love in Cyric's heart. Tyr then makes it clear to Helm that will stay away from his wife. (As it is very much illegal to sleep with another man's wife, punishable by death.) Helm boldly proclaims that it is too late, that Tymora is already his and that he will never have her. That is when the battle begins and Helm is slain. Since when has adultery in the Realms been punishable by death? Oh Please! There's no justice in that. Tyr would also know better than to expect true fidelity out of a Chaotic deity who is as fickle as Tymora. Also, I still don't see what Tymora and Helm have in common. I also don't like the idea of Tyr and Helm arguing over Tymora like she was property - "She's MINE!" "NO she's MINE!!" *fistycuffs* Tymora is Tymora's. However, unknown to Sune, Cyric had managed to steal from her a magical bottle of her perfume. Being the deity of illusions and lies, along with that perfume it allowed him to masquerade around as Sune. In that illusionary form he approached Tyr, after Sune had spoken to him and delivered into his hands a marriage contract. A contract which he had forged the name of Tymora. Tyr later arrives in Brightwater and boldly displays the contract to Tymora. He claims that he has come for her. It is then that the plot begins to unravel. Tyr, being more powerful than Cyric (by one rank), would know the contract was a fake without even having to try very hard to see it. However, just as word of Cyric's involvement begins to leak out and a scandal begins to surround Sune, Shar appears to Sune and bids for her watch something. She peers into a pool of darkness, and sees what appears to be herself walking through the halls of Dweomerheart. The "fake" her approaches Mystra - who has her back turned. She bids Sune greetings and questions what brings her to Dweomerheart. Mystra, being more powerful than Cyric (by 1 rank - though I think she should be more powerful), and having a portfolio sense for the Weave, would have known well in advance that the Weave was in danger, and would do as much as she could to prevent this. (This is one of the problems I have with the actual in text version of events too.) Savras would have been able to warn her too, but Mystra would have already known. Sune responds, "I've come to give you a beautiful present. It is something I have planned for a very long time." Mystra begins to turn slightly, a bit taken back and as she does so blades appear within the hands of Sune and run Mystra through. Her eyes widen in shock as the illusion shatters revealing Cyric who smiles at her dying form, "I hope you enjoy it." He laughs and fades from Dweomerheart as Mystra's essence explodes, killing Savras as he appears within feet of her form to warn of impending danger, and hurling Velsharoon and Azoth into the Astral Plane. Dweomerheart collapses, and with Mystra's death brings an end to the Weave. All Magic trumps Illusion, so Mystra would have also seen through Cyric's illusion. As the reality of all that has happened begins to sink into the minds of the gods Tymora leaves Brightwater to join Tyr, heartbroken that her love had been slain by the foolishness of her friend. Sune begins to feel isolated and alone... As she experiences love that ends badly. Tymora, if she truly had loved Helm, would never have countenanced going with her love's killer. This is a perfectly conceivable scenario. Just as Lathander is doomed to repeat the same mistakes again and again, so too is Sune doomed by her faults. She is forever doomed to believe that Love conquers all, and that Love can redeem even the blackest of souls. Just as Lathander is forever doomed to believe in renewal and rebirth, and Cyric forever doomed to lie, deceive and to murder. I think we see the Realms in different ways. The scenario you have outlined would never happen in my Realms. |
| Zandilar10-01-07, 07:52 AM | Heya, I actually kind of liked Adon, but meh. Meant to reply to this too in my last post. I did too, he was one of the only characters in the Avatar series to actually grow. I felt quite ripped off when he was killed during Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. |
| Zandilar10-01-07, 08:03 AM | Heya, Sorry for the triple posting here... Not sure, it's just a vibe I get from her and her followers. Maybe they haven't emphasized the good aspect of her to the point where I noticed or it overwhelmed the shadier parts of her clergy's portrayal of her. I'm not saying she is CN, just that at times she seems more C than G. And this time, well it's almost neither good or chaotic so maybe that's throwing me off, a lot. I don't see where you're getting the idea that her clergy portray her as shady. But then again, Sune is not a terribly popular deity, and so her page time has been far less than other deities. Shame about that really. Maybe. I figured from portfolio (also part of their personality as much as alignment) it might work out better. I always figured there was a softer, more laid back side to Helm, he's kind of like Khelben in a way, except warrior-like and godly. Helm's hardly ever seen outside his armour. He's quite a forbidding deity, and cold too (though I know he's rather protective of children for some reason or other, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's any warmer with them). I never really liked Khelben, not even during Blackstaff. He was very hard to fathom, and I don't understand what Laeral saw in him. So I suppose it's no surprise that I am also a little annoyed that Tsarra has basically had to give up her own life to be him. I like the Triad and related gods, I'll even say I copied the Triad and Helm wholesale for my home setting before those gods evolved into their own entities. Tyr existed in my original homebrew world as the God of Law (with Forestti being the actual God of Justice)... Yes, I had the Norse pantheon for one of the nations of that world. Since then, I've had to revamp the gods, since I am planning to write a series of novels set there (hopefully to be eventually published)... So they've been replaced with a single god called Karrik the Flame of Justice (LN male intermediate: law, justice, impartiality, logic). The other triad members aren't represented, since Tyr came from the Norse pantheon, not the Realms one. :) Exactly. WotC could hype up a deity without ever revealing her plans or have her directly involved in anything. That would be one scary deity. "Maybe Shar was involved, or maybe not, or maybe she was, or maybe she wants you to think she was involved only to deny it in your head, but really she was." Shar is the deity of the original Mind... umm... you know, a word I dare not say here. ;) |
| Meldread10-01-07, 09:18 AM | Zandilar- Since when have stats ever influenced stories? :P I normally ignore things like that and just assume that a deity is the complete embodiment of their portfolios. If Cyric tells a lie, even a blatant lie such as "The Sky is pink with purple polka dots" it sounds completely and 100% believable to anyone who hears it. They would look at the sky to verify his claims and then be astonished that it wasn't true. If you are in the presence of Shar you are surrounded by alluring darkness, that threatens to pull you into it. Feelings of loss, bitterness, regret and other such negative emotions flood your senses. Old forgotten memories, especially those kept secret, are brought to the forefront of your mind - ESPECIALLY if they draw upon negative emotions. When you are in the presence of Sune it is almost impossible not to be captivated by her beauty, her grace, her every movement. The deities in a sense draw their strengths from what they are, but that which gives them strength is also their greatest weakness. Thus, Shar is forever doomed to know loss and spread it to others, and bring darkness to all that she touches. Cyric is forever doomed to lie, murder and deceive. Helm is forever doomed to guard and protect, even unto death. (Which is really what I was going for in my pseudo-explanation. He was trying to protect and guard Tymora's right to remain free.) Tyr is forever doomed to bring justice to the world, be they friend or foe - when you break a law he will be forced and compelled to bring justice. Sune is forever doomed to believe that Love conquers all and attempt to find it in the most unlikely of places, and once found to try and nurture it and help it grow. The only thing that could possibly change them is a modification in their alignment. While that won't change their portfolios (in most cases) it will change how they perceive them. However, if we go by the outline you've put down for Mystra then she's invincible outside of Ao himself striking her down. That simply isn't fair to the character or the story. It puts her on a higher pedestal than any other deity, who has no hope of challenging her dominance. Also, in many cultures (both modern and past, especially in a medieval-like setting) adultery is punishable by death. It would make it even more so if it was a political marriage as not only would it carry with it the normal problems and stigma of adultery it would be the breaking of a contract. In some cases the breaking of a contract alone is punishable by death. When I wrote the above I did it completely freeform without any real thought of where it would lead. When I got to the part about the adultery I remembered a similar situation in which Keldorn (BGII) found himself. He was never there with his wife and kids, and his wife had been cheating on him with another man. He struggled with his feelings, turning to the PC for guidance. Under the law both she and her lover were punishable by death. You could give him guidance to turn her in (at which point she and her lover are executed), for him to kill the lover, or for him to forgive her and try and make things right. So when I was writing the above, the thought of how Tyr would react was pretty clear. When faced with a similar situation, believing that he was the legal husband of Tymora, and Helm's admission that he had been with her, Tyr was forced (by his portfolio of justice) to execute Helm. Likewise Helm was forced by his portfolio to protect and guard Tymora unto death. In the larger picture both Shar and Cyric knew this and set it up so the confrontation would play out exactly the way it did. |
| Rauric10-01-07, 10:11 AM | I hate that the gods are statted. Maybe that was for older edition fans who would eventually go to the planes and kill the gods because the Prime no longer help any XP for them? :P Any, I hate that thew gods are statted. |
| Selvarin10-01-07, 11:22 AM | That wouldn't happen. Sharess is the goddess of felines. As such she's capable of more than just girl-slap hair-pulling. Sune would just snuff Sharess out by looking at her. Gods, what's happened to this forum? It's called humor, Zandilar. It could also be a dash of sarcasm since some of the plots suggested have made my eyes roll just a bit. |
| Meldread10-01-07, 11:33 AM | I hate that the gods are given stats as well. I can understand their avatars being given stats assuming that they could send them to roam the prime material plane. However, a deity themselves should just be so far beyond a mortal that they break the game rules. "You attack Cyric. The God of Murder laughs. You die instantly." :P It really irks me when people make comments saying things like <insert god / character here can't be killed>. I seem to have the innate uncontrollable urge to wish to prove people wrong. When someone tells me something can't be done, I instantly want to find a way to make it happen. I can't help believe that people who say such things suffer from a lack of imagination. Maybe it's a pet peeve, I don't know, but whenever I hear something like Mystra can't be killed it makes me just want to send her off packing to the Abyss for Demigorgon to use as his personal slave. I feel the same way when people coo over the uberness of Drizzt - it makes me want to kill him in the most un-heroic and epic fashion. He gets captured by a group of evil flesh eating gnomes, who slay him with a thousand paper cuts. |
| Selvarin10-01-07, 11:43 AM | It's been lamented by more than a few game designers that F&P had stats for deities because it took away precious space that could've been used for more useful matters. Avatars are fun to kill though. :P |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 01:34 PM | Anyway, we don't know if the marriage actually happens after Helm is killed, only that Tymora goes with Tyr to the House of the Triad. Really, I hope she doesn't stay. She doesn't belong there. I can't believe she would just walk away with the guy who killed one of his friends over her.:rolleyes: Maybe Sune has been corrupted by Shar. That'd be right, lets just kill all the non-evil deities and have Shar replace Ao. :raincloud Might as well. Shar is obviously the FR design team's favorite deity. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 01:37 PM | My little theory was in jest. I would even say it's too gutsy for WotC to pull off. Their changes seem limited to killing gods, not genuinely changing them. Except in the case of Eilistraee. :raincloud |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 01:52 PM | Also, in many cultures (both modern and past, especially in a medieval-like setting) adultery is punishable by death. It would make it even more so if it was a political marriage as not only would it carry with it the normal problems and stigma of adultery it would be the breaking of a contract. In some cases the breaking of a contract alone is punishable by death. It doesn't say anyway in GHotR that Tymora had been married to anyone at the time, though! And while I don't condone adultery, I think capital punishment absolutely does not fit such a wrong doing (it's not even a crime, at least not were I live, the U.S). Not that this story makes any sense, anyway. The Faerunian gods (and most other gods) don't seem that interested in getting married to begin with--regardless of alignment. This "political marriage" thing is a total anomaly. |
| Meldread10-01-07, 03:05 PM | Rinonalyrna- Well Tymora went off with Tyr in the end. One would assume that if she hadn't already married him that she had sullenly resigned herself to such a position. Of course capital punishment doesn't fit the crime by modern western standards. However, there are a lot of things in the Realm's that do not fit our "standards" and it is loosely based off medieval society. Slavery isn't even evil per-say in the FR (only how you treat the slaves). Don't believe me? Ask Horus-Re and the Mulhorandi. Most of the Mulhorandi pantheon is LG, NG or Neutral with good leanings. They happily embrace slavery. |
| Selvarin10-01-07, 03:08 PM | We'll be lucky if Eilistraee makes the cut as a demipower. |
| buzzard10-01-07, 03:57 PM | On to the plot holes... Sune has portfolio sense with regards to love. Cyric is only one DvR higher than Sune, and thus may not be able to completely obscure her portfolio sense. In other words: Sune would sense there is no true love in Cyric's heart. Deities are able to block the sensing ability of other deities of equal rank, so Cyric should be able to block Sune's sensing ability completely. Mystra, being more powerful than Cyric (by 1 rank - though I think she should be more powerful), and having a portfolio sense for the Weave, would have known well in advance that the Weave was in danger, and would do as much as she could to prevent this. (This is one of the problems I have with the actual in text version of events too.) Savras would have been able to warn her too, but Mystra would have already known. Shar can (and probably was) blocking Mystra's sensing abilities, as well as Savras' (or in Savras' case Cyric could block him too). From the info we have on AGHOTR, Cyric did the killing and Shar gave him some help, this help was probably Shar confusing Mystra and/or Savras or the combination of lies and secrets to avoid detection (secrets alone should be enough since both Mystra and Shar have equal divine rank but let's add lies into the equation). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 04:20 PM | Of course capital punishment doesn't fit the crime by modern western standards. However, there are a lot of things in the Realm's that do not fit our "standards" and it is loosely based off medieval society. Slavery isn't even evil per-say in the FR (only how you treat the slaves). Don't believe me? Ask Horus-Re and the Mulhorandi. Most of the Mulhorandi pantheon is LG, NG or Neutral with good leanings. They happily embrace slavery. "Don't believe me?" Oh please. I'm aware of Mulhorand, have been for a long time, and I don't consider it "good" no matter how the slaves are treated. Mulhorand's primary alignment is LN according to the FRCS. And no, capital punishment for adultery doesn't seem to be common at all in the FR. The example you gave is from a CRPG game. That was a great game, but it's not canon. |
| Dark Wizard10-01-07, 05:34 PM | That some of the gods couldn't sense something should be reason enough to be on their guard. Tyr is a god of justice and thus truth (or as close to it as he can get). His blindness actually gives him an advantage, he does not need to see the truth to arrive at it. He is the archetypal honest, impartial judge who uses the best information he could get before making a judgment. Helm is the eternal watcher and guardian, you know looking out for this sort of thing. Guards stare into the darkness anticipating stuff to come out, whatever it may be, blatant foe or friends manipulated by dark powers. Savras, god of diviners, he probably has experience with divinations that don't make sense or are blocked. He should have pieced together something was up. Once something felt wrong, there is nothing stopping Mystra and Savras working together to overcome or deduce some of what would happen. The thing is the evil deities were allowed to act within their portfolio and their full capacity, while the good deities were not. They were simply lethargic sitting ducks. The deaths are not the main concern so much as the method of death. Basically all of them got "punk'd." I could understand the rare occasion when one deity had their guard down, but they stretched believability by having two evil deities completely flank the majority of the good side of the pantheon. Then if these evil deities are so badass, why could three good deities lock up one of the main culprits? If they wanted a darker world, they just undid half of their work. |
| Zandilar10-01-07, 06:22 PM | Heya, Since when have stats ever influenced stories? :P Since never, but that's really beside the point. Especially since I've acknowledged that you and I obviously see the Realms differently. I normally ignore things like that and just assume that a deity is the complete embodiment of their portfolios. If Cyric tells a lie, even a blatant lie such as "The Sky is pink with purple polka dots" it sounds completely and 100% believable to anyone who hears it. They would look at the sky to verify his claims and then be astonished that it wasn't true. And even then, Cyric could probably talk a person into believing that Blue = Pink, and White = Purple. But this isn't the case with a deity, especially since there are many deities for whom seeing through lies is essential. (Tyr anyone?) If you are in the presence of Shar you are surrounded by alluring darkness, that threatens to pull you into it. Feelings of loss, bitterness, regret and other such negative emotions flood your senses. Old forgotten memories, especially those kept secret, are brought to the forefront of your mind - ESPECIALLY if they draw upon negative emotions. When you are in the presence of Sune it is almost impossible not to be captivated by her beauty, her grace, her every movement. Yep, I know full well what she feels like. In the modern world, she's called depression. I think Shar would rather you forgot those forgotten memories, though, since forgetfulness is part of her portfoilo, and if you're remembering, you're not giving her any power. The deities in a sense draw their strengths from what they are, but that which gives them strength is also their greatest weakness. Thus, Shar is forever doomed to know loss and spread it to others, and bring darkness to all that she touches. Cyric is forever doomed to lie, murder and deceive. Helm is forever doomed to guard and protect, even unto death. (Which is really what I was going for in my pseudo-explanation. He was trying to protect and guard Tymora's right to remain free.) Tyr is forever doomed to bring justice to the world, be they friend or foe - when you break a law he will be forced and compelled to bring justice. Sune is forever doomed to believe that Love conquers all and attempt to find it in the most unlikely of places, and once found to try and nurture it and help it grow. Yep, and all Shar got out of this latest thing was loosing the Shadow Weave. A small price to pay for the death of her greatest enemy bar one. As for "(Which is really what I was going for in my pseudo-explanation. He was trying to protect and guard Tymora's right to remain free.)" You said (bolding mine): "Helm boldly proclaims that it is too late, that Tymora is already his and that he will never have her." That doesn't sound like Helm protecting her right to be free, it sounds like Helm protecting his territory. This Helm would have had a harder time with Tymora than Tyr, methinks. (Brandobaris's relationship with Tymora, whether or not it is completely intimate/romantic, would definitely pose a challenge to both Helm and Tyr, especially if both deities expect monogamy.) However, if we go by the outline you've put down for Mystra then she's invincible outside of Ao himself striking her down. That simply isn't fair to the character or the story. It puts her on a higher pedestal than any other deity, who has no hope of challenging her dominance. She might not have saved herself. She might have seen past the Spellplague to her next incarnation, or she might realize that there's nothing at all she can do - one way or the other the Weave will be destroyed. As much as I hate to say all this, there must be some reason why it happened. If nothing else, destroying the Weave by killing Mystra upsets Ao's precious balance, and I can't see why he wouldn't have stepped in except if it was part of some kind of play on Mystra's (and/or Ao's) behalf (or if he decided it was time that the Weave and the Shadow Weave cease to be). Mystra is supposed to be the single most powerful deity in the Realms, no matter what her DvR is. She should have at least had a chance to react, much as Mystryl did when Karsus stole her divinity, even if it was just to project to Faerun a part of herself or protect the parts of herself on Faerun (ie: her Chosen, and possibly a successor). Also, in many cultures (both modern and past, especially in a medieval-like setting) adultery is punishable by death. It would make it even more so if it was a political marriage as not only would it carry with it the normal problems and stigma of adultery it would be the breaking of a contract. In some cases the breaking of a contract alone is punishable by death. But we're not talking about medieval Earth. We're talking about Faerun, where they have completely different attitudes towards sex, sexuality, and, more pertinently, marriage. The death sentence for adultery comes from societies where women were considered to be chattel, not people. In our more modern and enlightened time, women are considered people... And even the Anglican Church in Australia has recognized this, why only this week! (There is more to it than that, and my last line is a gross simplification of what was going on, but still it was a eye rolling moment when papers were reporting it that way.) When I wrote the above I did it completely freeform without any real thought of where it would lead. When I got to the part about the adultery I remembered a similar situation in which Keldorn (BGII) found himself. He was never there with his wife and kids, and his wife had been cheating on him with another man. He struggled with his feelings, turning to the PC for guidance. Under the law both she and her lover were punishable by death. You could give him guidance to turn her in (at which point she and her lover are executed), for him to kill the lover, or for him to forgive her and try and make things right. So when I was writing the above, the thought of how Tyr would react was pretty clear. When faced with a similar situation, believing that he was the legal husband of Tymora, and Helm's admission that he had been with her, Tyr was forced (by his portfolio of justice) to execute Helm. Likewise Helm was forced by his portfolio to protect and guard Tymora unto death. In the larger picture both Shar and Cyric knew this and set it up so the confrontation would play out exactly the way it did. I played through that game and that plot line, and I thought it was ridiculous. Bioware is such a shining beacon of Lore :rolleyes:. There were plenty of things in BG2, especially attitudes towards sex and sexuality that were more informed by Earth than they were by the Forgotten Realms of Ed Greenwood. Deities are able to block the sensing ability of other deities of equal rank, so Cyric should be able to block Sune's sensing ability completely. Okay, I'll give you that. Sune is less powerful than Cyric in rank. Shar can (and probably was) blocking Mystra's sensing abilities, as well as Savras' (or in Savras' case Cyric could block him too). From the info we have on AGHOTR, Cyric did the killing and Shar gave him some help, this help was probably Shar confusing Mystra and/or Savras or the combination of lies and secrets to avoid detection (secrets alone should be enough since both Mystra and Shar have equal divine rank but let's add lies into the equation). I would have thought there was some kind of contest there between Shar's blocking ability and Mystra's sensing ability. Given the two deities are identical in DvR, there should have been some possibility of Mystra being able to see through Shar's block. Plus, Shar would have had to have been blocking more than just Mystra and Savras... Deities who I think might have had some inkling - Helm (Mystra is the Guardian of the Weave, amongst other things), Kelemvor (Mystra's Death), Lathander (the death of the weave would be concidered a new begining for something else), Oghma (the god of Knowledge, perfect counter to the goddess of Secrets), Loviatar (Mystra's pain in the moment of her death), Red Knight (a strategy that comes to fruition), Talos (Destruction of the Weave), and most deities whose worshipers were effected (ie: Selune, who has many female spell casters as worshipers). So in addition to blocking Mystra, she'd have to be blocking nigh on everyone... Which would mean either that she's more powerful than Mystra, or that she was doing nothing else in the 18 weeks (?) before (so Mystra doesn't sense anything's a miss), and while Cyric did his dirty deed, and for at least 18 weeks afterwards (because Mystra senses that far ahead of time, so on the day she would have to not see what was going on afterwards). That big a block of not sensing what was going on for that many deities would have drawn attention, don't you think? Mystra, especially, would have noticed that she wasn't sensing anything about the major part of her portfolio. And no, capital punishment for adultery doesn't seem to be common at all in the FR. The example you gave is from a CRPG game. That was a great game, but it's not canon. Capital punishment for adultery seems competely out of theme for the Realms. It's called humor, Zandilar. It could also be a dash of sarcasm since some of the plots suggested have made my eyes roll just a bit. Yeah, I'm just tired of those kinds of jokes. People don't realize the power these jokes have to perpetuate stereotypes that should have long since been dead and buried. Maybe we're not so enlightened after all. (One reply to come) |
| Zandilar10-01-07, 06:24 PM | Heya, That some of the gods couldn't sense something should be reason enough to be on their guard. Exactly! The thing is the evil deities were allowed to act within their portfolio and their full capacity, while the good deities were not. They were simply lethargic sitting ducks. The deaths are not the main concern so much as the method of death. Basically all of them got "punk'd." I could understand the rare occasion when one deity had their guard down, but they stretched believability by having two evil deities completely flank the majority of the good side of the pantheon. Then if these evil deities are so badass, why could three good deities lock up one of the main culprits? If they wanted a darker world, they just undid half of their work. QFT. I don't think I could have said it any better myself. |
| buzzard10-01-07, 07:13 PM | I would have thought there was some kind of contest there between Shar's blocking ability and Mystra's sensing ability. Given the two deities are identical in DvR, there should have been some possibility of Mystra being able to see through Shar's block. According to the rules Shar is able to completely block Mystra's sensing, and Mystra can accordingly completely block Shar. Plus, Shar would have had to have been blocking more than just Mystra and Savras... Deities who I think might have had some inkling - Helm (Mystra is the Guardian of the Weave, amongst other things), Kelemvor (Mystra's Death), Lathander (the death of the weave would be concidered a new begining for something else), Oghma (the god of Knowledge, perfect counter to the goddess of Secrets), Loviatar (Mystra's pain in the moment of her death), Red Knight (a strategy that comes to fruition), Talos (Destruction of the Weave), and most deities whose worshipers were effected (ie: Selune, who has many female spell casters as worshipers). So in addition to blocking Mystra, she'd have to be blocking nigh on everyone... Shar doesn't need to actively block every deity that she wants not to learn about what's transpiring, she just needs to block the location where it will be happening, by blocking the place where Mystra is located she cuts every other deity on any plane from learning something about her plans. Which would mean either that she's more powerful than Mystra As per the rules, she doesn't need to be more powerful, just AS powerful. That big a block of not sensing what was going on for that many deities would have drawn attention, don't you think? This point is rendered moot. Mystra, especially, would have noticed that she wasn't sensing anything about the major part of her portfolio. That much is true. However, Mystra can't know WHY she isn't sensing anything if she's being blocked. Of course, an assassination attempt would be the most logical option but, there could be hundreds of other reasons why she's not sensing anything, maybe she's felling very ill and has to go to the bathroom urgently :D. just kidding. The thing is the evil deities were allowed to act within their portfolio and their full capacity, while the good deities were not. They were simply lethargic sitting ducks. Well, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Mystra is the main offender when it comes to acting according to her capacity. I mean, she defeated Asmodeus on his home plane (where he is all-powerful), now Shar and Cyric did the same thing to her, that novel written by Ed Greenwood actually set a precedent. If one god can defeat a being who's on par with the deities, then two gods surely have a better chance to succeed. Savras, god of diviners, he probably has experience with divinations that don't make sense or are blocked. He should have pieced together something was up. Once something felt wrong, there is nothing stopping Mystra and Savras working together to overcome or deduce some of what would happen. It doesn't work that way, Shar as a MUCH more powerful deity can totally nullify Savras' sensing ability, she can even block Mystra who is as powerful as her. And also, by that logic (putting aside the block sensing ability) since Shar is goddess of Secrets and IS more powerful than Savras' then surely she can prevent him from divining anything. |
| GothicDan10-01-07, 07:17 PM | You're referring to the rules which are basically ignored at every turn, historically speaking? The rules that say there's basically no way Cavatina (sp?) could have killed Eilistraee with a 'High Magic' ritual? No one's going to take anyone seriously who's seriously relying on "the rules" as their only reasoning for having what happened, happened. Note: I personally LIKE Shar more than Mystra. But this is still a bunch of BS. Personal feelings should not get in the way of the verisimilitude of reality. |
| Meldread10-01-07, 07:19 PM | Sigh. I really do not have the energy (or the care) to argue with anyone here. All right, you obviously do not like what happened. Fine. There is nothing wrong with that. However, they happened. These are confirmed changes and WotC is unlikely to revoke them or change their mind. They've been planning this for over two years. What I have made the attempt to do is blatantly make the best out of a situation you define as 'bad' - to try and give it more context, meaning, have it make more sense. I realize that no matter what I say or do it will be twisted and my words assaulted because I do not fall into immediate attack mode against WotC and join lock-step with the rest of the angry villagers by grabbing my pitchfork. So, really I have to wonder how much longer this is going to go on. When are we going to be able to return to discussing the Realm's in a way that is constructive to its growth? I am already growing tired of this endless vitriol in every single thread. Did Mystra get gimped? Yes. She got gimped. That shouldn't have come as a shock to anyone. Mystra gets gimped practically every time there is a major change in the Realm's. We just lost her third incarnation for crying out loud. Did some of the deities act strange and basically conform to allow this to happen? Yes. Go cry tears on Cyric's shoulder for how many times he's taken it rough and hard as the punching bag for the biggest joke to ever become a deity. At least before he's imprisoned he gets to somewhat redeem his badly defamed character, even though the taint of his endless string of failures will forever haunt him. (Much like the laughable joke that is the Zhents.) That is the Forgotten Realm's. This is what the Forgotten Realm's is becoming. You don't like it? Well, I'm sorry to inform you that at this point, it's really too late and too bad. So instead of being negative, spiteful, and overall simply foul it might do you (and everyone else) more good to at least find a silver lining somewhere and just latch onto it. Because at this point you haven't even heard the worst of it yet. And is this not directed at any one person, but to every person that it applies too. There are just too many threads to post this in, and perhaps belongs in a topic all of its own. |
| GothicDan10-01-07, 07:23 PM | Meldread, that's the best post you've made so far. Sometimes - always, for me - it's best to just state the truth, and that's all. I personally tire of people trying to make the best out of a miserable situation. If I get a D on a test, sure, I'll try harder next test, but that doesn't alleviate the grief of the first grade. I don't think one should misconstrue the potential to rebound with quality in and of itself, and that's what it seems like a lot of people are trying to do. |
| Dark Wizard10-01-07, 07:51 PM | Well, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Mystra is the main offender when it comes to acting according to her capacity. I mean, she defeated Asmodeus on his home plane (where he is all-powerful), now Shar and Cyric did the same thing to her, that novel written by Ed Greenwood actually set a precedent. If one god can defeat a being who's on par with the deities, then two gods surely have a better chance to succeed. She didn't kill Asmodeus. She didn't even permanently hurt him, just temporarily set him back. If all it takes is just two gods to kill one and all her lesser deity allies, one wonders why it isn't a more common occurrence. Together the Triad and Helm have more than enough power to take out several prominent evil deities. Lathander and Selune can wipe out a good portion of dark gods. Bane alone can crush many beneath his feet. Talos should destroy lesser gods at will. It doesn't work that way, Shar as a MUCH more powerful deity can totally nullify Savras' sensing ability, she can even block Mystra who is as powerful as her. And also, by that logic (putting aside the block sensing ability) since Shar is goddess of Secrets and IS more powerful than Savras' then surely she can prevent him from divining anything. Then if all the deities are running their interference all the time, it becomes the standard. The abilities cancel each other out and we're back to square one, figuring things out the old fashion way. Like I said, it just seemed all the good deities were simply sitting on their thumbs waiting to get killed like in some MMO. Maybe there will be a new spawning by next edition. I know the evil deities and villains got similar treatment in years past, but I was hoping for a sign of intelligent plots and characters across the board, not just switching back and forth, like the good guys finally get their overdue comeuppance. @Meldread - Why pretend the changes are something they're not? None of the Realms fixing points had to be dealt with specifically by the bloating events they put forth. The spectacular way in which everything falls apart is exactly what caused all the supposed bloat in the first place. I've put forth the perfect way for all this speculation to end and all the discussion on it to stop, WotC can simply cease destroying the Realms and show us what they've actually done with it. I'm not saying reveal all their info, just enough to show the Realms are still the Realms or give a statement that it's not. They do more to complicate the issue by putting out little irritating bits for people to speculate about. Though this may be their strategy all along, test the waters and adjust by the time the new book comes out. In which case the discussions here are paramount to helping shape the Realms. However, I highly doubt WotC is so magnanimous. I think they're just putting out the worst parts first to let the outcry die down by the time the FRCS 4E comes out. Maybe it's a good strategy. |
| Meldread10-01-07, 08:19 PM | Dark Wizard- Rich Baker has already stated clearly that WotC has set the course for the new edition, and at best any complaining about what is happening will result in minor cosmetic modifications. With Ed Greenwood signed up to put in 50,000 words in the new FRCS I think we are going to get all the lipstick and mascara possible. So any complaining done is moot. WotC is not going to change their mind, and it really has to be understood that the designers have known about these changes YEARS in advance. All of the most recently released novels have been leading up to it. Do you think the wholesale slaughter of Drow deities was happening just because someone felt like it? Do you think Lolth had her power increased simply because it was long overdue? Do you think the return to the Elves to Faerun happened just because (say goodbye to Evermeet)? No, things have been plotted out long in advance. The pieces have been put into place and WotC is ready to move full steam ahead. They have already prepared for every possible scenario (including massive fan boycotting of the new product) and the endless stream of flames they will receive. What do you hope to accomplish? |
| GothicDan10-01-07, 08:20 PM | According to WotC, the development of 4E is only fairly new... You callin' them liars? :p |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 08:33 PM | Well, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Mystra is the main offender when it comes to acting according to her capacity. I mean, she defeated Asmodeus on his home plane (where he is all-powerful), now Shar and Cyric did the same thing to her, that novel written by Ed Greenwood actually set a precedent. If one god can defeat a being who's on par with the deities, then two gods surely have a better chance to succeed. It's not the same. Asmodeus is still around, but Mystra is going to be DEAD. And this particular incident (Mystra's death) is not the only one where the good deities and their followers are made out to be sitting ducks for the benefit of deities like Shar, and her followers. Just check out the treatment of the Chosen of Mystra in the new Shadowdale adventure, and note the level of the Sharan priestess behind it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 08:40 PM | Meldread, that's the best post you've made so far. Sometimes - always, for me - it's best to just state the truth, and that's all. I personally tire of people trying to make the best out of a miserable situation. If I get a D on a test, sure, I'll try harder next test, but that doesn't alleviate the grief of the first grade. I don't think one should misconstrue the potential to rebound with quality in and of itself, and that's what it seems like a lot of people are trying to do. Agreed, totally. Sometimes things really are a mess, we get upset, and there is no "bright side". That's life. Granted, we are talking about an issue of minor importance (it's just a game after all), but that doesn't mean what I said doesn't apply to it. I don't like these changes, and I don't like the way they are done. That's it. There's no pitchfork, no desire to take revenge on the guys making 4E FR, no foaming at the mouth anger here. But I'm not going to be a beacon of optimism about stuff I dislike, either. |
| The_King_in_Yellow10-01-07, 08:46 PM | She didn't kill Asmodeus. She didn't even permanently hurt him, just temporarily set him back. Just like Highlander II that never happend I tell you!!! Either that or it was all a plot by Asmodeus (well an aspect that holds rule over the fortress Malsheem, at least) to gain a minor advantage in the Blood War, you see with Halaster's insanity so came insight in to the unique way in which Undermountain's gate magic works, that foolish god of F.R magic played straight into A's hands. It's the only excuse that keeps me from hunting out every last copy of that book and burning them all :D. Also I'm looking forward to reading about the changes to the Forgotten Realms I don't find it so implausible these plans Wotc have laid out for the campaign setting. I think F.R is in need of *real* shake up for once... ...P.S If you need me, I'll be barricaded in my fall out shelter awaiting the backlash this post will invetiably create. :D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 08:46 PM | What do you hope to accomplish? What do you hope to accomplish by posting here, Meldread? As I've stated before, people don't post here to "accomplish" something, they post to state their opinions. That's the whole point of participating on a message board! I'm not going to stop expressing my distaste and dismay at these ridiculous changes just because it probably won't change WotC's mind. So no, Meldread, I'm not going to shut up. How about you? |
| Meldread10-01-07, 09:35 PM | According to WotC, the development of 4E is only fairly new... You callin' them liars? :p Yep. :P I based my comment on a statement made by Ed. Basically, he was talking about how he felt about the changes and inadvertently let slip when people started finding out about the new direction. Rinonalyrna- Where did I say you had to shut up? I asked what you hoped to accomplish. That is a very valid question, because at this point you are accomplishing nothing but throwing a tantrum. You are stomping your feet, complaining, then going to every single thread that is posted and restating an opinion that you've already shared at least 100 times. That really is not a constructive use of energy. Also, the forums aren't here for people to ***** constantly. They are here for people to share information about the Forgotten Realm's. You will notice that there is not a single forum that has either a title or description, "Please post your *****ing and flames here!" Alright, everyone understands that you hate the changes. Do you plan to continue to be here 3 years after the 4E FRCS and other Source Books are released, still sharing the same opinion in every single thread? No matter how many times you share it, it isn't going to change the fact that 4th Edition and the changes to the Realm's are coming. So that really leaves you with two options: You can continue as you are doing, wasting your time and energy, or you can try and find something to make the changes bearable. At the very least, you could save your vitriol for those who made the changes and not people who show a precursory interest. As things stand you and others have attacked pretty much anyone who has played a MMOG, touched a play station, happens to be under the age of 20, has a dislike for any iconic character (in particular Mystra's Chosen), believes that the setting was too lighthearted, and anyone who has shown a precursory interest in the changes. I'm sure if things keep going it will eventually become the fault of old grannies with walkers as well. |
| Dark Wizard10-01-07, 10:16 PM | What do you hope to accomplish? (Theoretical Future Scenario) I'm figuring into WotC's master plan as the new generation of Realms hater and detractor. I will become one of those who complains relentlessly about the setting. Even though I have never played in the new Realms and all I know about the setting is from a few blurbs and hearsay on other forums I will dismiss it entirely. I will complain like the new Realms caused me grievous personal harm, great public embarrassment, and deep mental damage. I will crusade on the forums ardently for the destruction of the Realms, citing various settings that are better such as the new settings Khyber and Siberys, or older settings like the City of Greathawk and the rest of Ol'Aerthe, Black Star, Spellhammer, Crowsflat, Drakespear, even Inheritance or something third party like Battleaxe Fantasy, Saga of the Four Rings, or Counties of Calamari. I will complain that Shar is overpowered and all her Dark Chosen should die horrible, terrible, humiliating deaths because my worst is less than what they deserve. They singlehandedly ruined all my games and all future games I will ever have. I will have my PCs brutally murder them in all the excruciating ways our sick little minds can come up with. Then I will concoct grand plots to have Shar strung up as a dribbling husk of a divinity at the mercy of a triumphantly returned and genuinely P.O.'ed off Midnight (yes, not even Mystra III, but Midnight) after an ingenious ruse using her Silver Weave. After that I will continue on to poke at the bloated, stale, shallow corpse of a setting that the new Realms have become since the decade it's been out. I do this because I know for certain that WotC will listen to my cries for change. I know they will listen because I will then be part of their untapped market. They will recreate the setting using a cosmic world shattering event called the Shadowphage at the advent of the new edition E.V and cater the world to my tastes. Then all will be good again. (end Theoretical Future Scenario) All kidding aside whether or not this all matters doesn't matter. I am voicing my opinion and I hope I'm doing so with some semblance of an argument. It will probably go unheeded. I could be utterly wrong and fail to accomplish anything. I could be right and managed to help save a venerable setting. I could be right and this still goes to hell. The flames from these threads can be so great as to set Wizards HQ on fire, forcing them to pull back on the changes as much as they can. If it all goes wrong I can sit back and pull a Nelson (Ha HA! ..points..). If the New Realms does great, I will be wrong and I can sulk with my archaic "bloated, stale" Realms. If it's does well and I actually like it I can jump ship and be a traitor to my old beliefs. Either way the best I can do is to voice my opinion in the most convincing way I can manage and hope something happens, even if it's not something I like. Perhaps I can convince WotC to actually give us some good hints for once and then you can have your silver lining to latch on to. Or they could ignore us and continue to be big, mysterious corporation with trade secrets, guarded sales figures, and long reaching plans to shape our fragile little gamer minds. However, I will not praise what I don't feel is good or well thought out. I will praise what I like. When they give me something I like I promise to be their loyal fanboy. This is simply how things go, but through it all I hope to state at least half-decent arguments based on my observations and the facts we have. Yeah, I had a little too much fun writing the Theoretical Future Scenario. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 10:18 PM | Where did I say you had to shut up? I asked what you hoped to accomplish. And I answered it. That is a very valid question, because at this point you are accomplishing nothing but throwing a tantrum. You are stomping your feet, complaining, then going to every single thread that is posted and restating an opinion that you've already shared at least 100 times. That really is not a constructive use of energy. If you don't want to read what I'm writing, feel free to ignore my posts. I'm not breaking any rules, and I'm not concerned with your opinion about it. Also, the forums aren't here for people to ***** constantly. They are here for people to share information about the Forgotten Realm's. You will notice that there is not a single forum that has either a title or description, "Please post your *****ing and flames here!" Who's flaming? And yes, people are allowed to b*tch. Alright, everyone understands that you hate the changes. Do you plan to continue to be here 3 years after the 4E FRCS and other Source Books are released, still sharing the same opinion in every single thread? No matter how many times you share it, it isn't going to change the fact that 4th Edition and the changes to the Realm's are coming. And your point is...? So that really leaves you with two options: Gee, Meldread, thank GOD I have you here to tell me what my options are. I don't know what I'd do without you. You can continue as you are doing, wasting your time and energy, or you can try and find something to make the changes bearable. I think I'll be the judge of whether or not I'm wasting my time and energy, but thanks for your kind concern all the same. At the very least, you could save your vitriol for those who made the changes and not people who show a precursory interest. Now you're talking like an idiot. I haven't attacked people who simply happen to like the changes. As things stand you and others have attacked pretty much anyone who has played a MMOG, touched a play station, happens to be under the age of 20, has a dislike for any iconic character (in particular Mystra's Chosen), believes that the setting was too lighthearted, and anyone who has shown a precursory interest in the changes. My goodness, Your Honor, I had no idea the charges against me were so extensive. Thank god you are here to be the Great Decider, and to explain with absolute clarity what I (and others:rolleyes: ) have said and what I did not say, and why it's so terrible. |
| GothicDan10-01-07, 10:22 PM | Meldread's going off his rocker. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 10:24 PM | Yeah, I had a little too much fun writing the Theoretical Future Scenario. You forgot to mention how PCs should be made out as more powerful than the NPCs, so they can be kings and queens wherever they go. After all, it's all about the players! |
| GothicDan10-01-07, 10:26 PM | I think Ed's quote in my sig. concerning how FR was made to show that the players just can't traipse through the world and knock down NPCs, shows a CLEAR departure from the future Realm's theme. And that's that! |
| Meldread10-01-07, 10:36 PM | Rinonalyrna- My goodness, Your Honor, I had no idea the charges against me were so extensive. Thank god you are here to be the Great Decider... You're welcome. Now, chill out and take a Prozac. Dark Wizard- You see that is all I was asking for... :P Really, I would like WotC to release more stuff as well preferably framed in a way that will get current fans exciting about the New Realm's. Although it is pretty clear and obvious that they are targeting those who have yet to sign onto the setting and those who have left it in the past. It is a gamble, one that I am shocked to see them taking, but I am interested to see the final product. |
| GothicDan10-01-07, 10:45 PM | Also... I was frankly shocked at how well Rino took your post, Meldread. I was frankly enraged at several parts of it. That may be partially from lingering fury over what WotC's done to FR's "omnipotent forces of good," however. Oh well. It's all gone to crap. I'll just focus ever more on academia and making my own settings, and reading snippets from Ed on what used to be. |
| Selvarin10-01-07, 10:57 PM | So Evermeet's going away too? Guess they needed it for more...ocean. |
| johnkretzer10-01-07, 11:10 PM | Rinonalyrna- Where did I say you had to shut up? I asked what you hoped to accomplish. That is a very valid question, because at this point you are accomplishing nothing but throwing a tantrum. You are stomping your feet, complaining, then going to every single thread that is posted and restating an opinion that you've already shared at least 100 times. That really is not a constructive use of energy. Also, the forums aren't here for people to ***** constantly. They are here for people to share information about the Forgotten Realm's. You will notice that there is not a single forum that has either a title or description, "Please post your *****ing and flames here!" Alright, everyone understands that you hate the changes. Do you plan to continue to be here 3 years after the 4E FRCS and other Source Books are released, still sharing the same opinion in every single thread? No matter how many times you share it, it isn't going to change the fact that 4th Edition and the changes to the Realm's are coming. So that really leaves you with two options: You can continue as you are doing, wasting your time and energy, or you can try and find something to make the changes bearable. At the very least, you could save your vitriol for those who made the changes and not people who show a precursory interest. As things stand you and others have attacked pretty much anyone who has played a MMOG, touched a play station, happens to be under the age of 20, has a dislike for any iconic character (in particular Mystra's Chosen), believes that the setting was too lighthearted, and anyone who has shown a precursory interest in the changes. I'm sure if things keep going it will eventually become the fault of old grannies with walkers as well. I don't how much of 'a waste on energy' it is. I mean people like you have been '*****ing' about wanting these changes for years now. It seems that you got your way. And wow that was a rude post. |
| Meldread10-01-07, 11:15 PM | You are mistaking rudeness with blunt truth. Well, I guess in a way they are somewhat similar, but someone had to say it. These forums are bordering on the ridiculous. |
| Dark Wizard10-01-07, 11:30 PM | Also I'm looking forward to reading about the changes to the Forgotten Realms I don't find it so implausible these plans Wotc have laid out for the campaign setting. I think F.R is in need of *real* shake up for once... ...P.S If you need me, I'll be barricaded in my fall out shelter awaiting the backlash this post will invetiably create. :D If the setting had to change in this way I wished they would have thought of something a bit different than just Mystra dying. WotC complains about the setting being stale, well it is their own doing. You see that is all I was asking for... Really, I would like WotC to release more stuff as well preferably framed in a way that will get current fans exciting about the New Realm's. Although it is pretty clear and obvious that they are targeting those who have yet to sign onto the setting and those who have left it in the past. It is a gamble, one that I am shocked to see them taking, but I am interested to see the final product. Yeah, it would help a lot. Instead they chose to reveal only the destructive changes to rub the old fans all the wrong way. It seems they aren't done with the negative reveals yet. If they could only give us something to get more of the old fans on board we could actually help with the transition, by being DMs so when 4E comes out, so the Realms will see lots more play by default. Or we could just praise the new changes on the forums, in game shops, at our own groups to raise up some free word-of-mouth marketing amongst gamers. Imagine if all the negative reviews of the setting changes were positive instead, even those who never heard of, cared for, or even disliked the Realms would take a look. Keeping the old fans is not mutually exclusive to gaining new fans. The changes didn't have to destroy the setting but they still could have enacted changes to widen the appeal, make it more welcoming to new players, even removed the most blatantly tiresome pieces (to those who dislike the Realms). I don't see why WotC is going about this as an all or nothing situation. |
| johnkretzer10-01-07, 11:34 PM | You are mistaking rudeness with blunt truth. Well, I guess in a way they are somewhat similar, but someone had to say it. These forums are bordering on the ridiculous. Sorry, but atleast the people who are against the changes haven't just dismissed those pro the changes as just biching...that is why it is insultive. And me being a old fashion kind of guy think you should apologize for talking to woman in such away. Not that she seems to need me to defend her or anything. Also she propably accomplishes what I hope to. A change in what they are doing. Sure it might be a longshot but there is always a chance. Just wondering any other avenues people can think of to get them to hear us? |
| Dark Wizard10-01-07, 11:39 PM | Actual physical paper mail to the company. Actual sales of the FRCS 4E within the first two months of release. Subsequent online surveys. Eventually, probably web hits on their new DI for FR related articles. |
| Meldread10-02-07, 12:24 AM | Sorry, but atleast the people who are against the changes haven't just dismissed those pro the changes as just biching...that is why it is insultive. No, they've just been blamed for the changes themselves as if they paid off WotC's marketing people. And me being a old fashion kind of guy think you should apologize for talking to woman in such away. Right, she (and everyone else the post was directed at) will get an apology when she cleans herself up, stops acting like one of those twelve year old, MMOG loving, playstation owners. By the way, I believe in equality, I hate you both equally. :P |
| MarkusTay6310-02-07, 01:40 AM | I will agree with Meldread on only one point, because it is important to point out their duplicity whenever possible. Ed, amongst several others, has already stated that they have been planning 4e for OVER TWO YEARS! That means they started working on it immediately after 3.5 shipped. Someone at a Euro-gencon (or some such) asked them jokingly if they were thinking about 5e yet and the resposne was "we are waiting until after 4e ships before we consider it". When then asked "so, there will be a 5e?', the response from a WotC official said "of course". So then why don't we all just wait for the better one in a couple of years? ;) Truthfully, I'm looking forward to the 4e rules, but now I'm thinking I should just wait for 2010 4.5 update. Obviously, it is inevitable. I just started playing with my group again, along with teaching a few noobs the game, and we are having a great time with all of my old 1e, 2e, and now 3e stuff. I realize that I have everything I will ever need to play this game, and I have Rich Baker to thank for that. What a great guy - with all the money I'm saving maybe I can take my kids to Disneyland... again. ;) |
| 18DELTA10-02-07, 02:33 AM | Personally I think the designers are looking at the gods in a 4E mindset. Where alignment is different than, 1E, 2E, 3E. Tyr is lawful, so what. Tymora is chaotic, big whoop. I have a feeling that really isnt going to matter in 4E. JMHO. Yeah the pantheon is getting reshuffled, cool. Some of the changes, blow btw. Yet that is what we are getting in the 4E Realms. Me I am on the fence till August2008. This has been a really good thread peeps.;) |
| johnkretzer10-02-07, 02:38 AM | Personally I think the designers are looking at the gods in a 4E mindset. Where alignment is different than, 1E, 2E, 3E. Tyr is lawful, so what. Tymora is chaotic, big whoop. I have a feeling that really isnt going to matter in 4E. JMHO. Yeah the pantheon is getting reshuffled, cool. Some of the changes, blow btw. Yet that is what we are getting in the 4E Realms. Me I am on the fence till August2008. This has been a really good thread peeps.;) um...the 'romance' of Tyr and Tymora is not stupid based on alignment...it is stupid based on the personalities of the characters. |
| Zandilar10-02-07, 06:04 AM | Heya, No, they've just been blamed for the changes themselves as if they paid off WotC's marketing people. Well, I am not blaming you. You can like the changes, I won't get upset at you. To be honest, some of the stuff I've heard about 4e is rather intriguing, but I think they could have gone about incorporating those changes into the Realms in a better way. For example - instead of killing Mystra (again), they could have just had Mystra quietly reorganizing the way the Weave worked so that it ends up being consistent with 4e magic. (Though Mystra's death isn't really the main thing that's upset me - it's the whole Tyr/Tymora/Helm thing... Mystra's death, unfortunately, is completely in character for Cyric and Shar - but Sune setting Tymora up with Tyr in a political marriage to balance out the defection of a demideity, and then Tyr getting upset at Helm and killing him for no apparent reason... just... I can't comprehend it. It's like the good deities all replaced their brains with badly made sponge cake (even with Cyric involved - he's not perfect!)!) I can't help but feel a little attacked by the designers, even though I know that's stupid of me. My favorite characters and deities in the Realms are under threat. Mystra will be dead, Eilistraee changed, Tymora and Sune acting completely out of character, Eilistraee's followers and the Chosen of Mystra (in particular the Seven Sisters) with a totally uncertain future (one of the latter is already dead... well deader than she was)... They represent the majority of what interests me in the Realms, and they're all messed with. I suppose if you're not attached to these characters, then you might not see where I'm coming from. Right, she (and everyone else the post was directed at) will get an apology when she cleans herself up, stops acting like one of those twelve year old, MMOG loving, playstation owners. (FWIW: I own a Playstation 2, I play World of Warcraft and Tabula Rasa (still in beta), and I'm 35 years old.) |
| Rauric10-02-07, 09:27 AM | Meldread, this is like a Concerns and Criticism thread for the Realms. That one post was a little nasty. I know where you were going with it but you could have done it in another way. Rino, he wasn't telling you to shut up, I think he was just getting frustrated reading the same stuff over and over. I understood that his second post came from anger since you put words in his mouth. He should not have gone that way with the next post though. Basically this is a complaining thread which is okay. People that do not like it or wish the posters would stop it should just not read this post. There are a few people that wish to share their distaste with one another. I think they are going in circles, but who cares? This is just one of those threads. Try not to troll. On another note if someone tries to make a post on their positive feelings about the upcoming Realms hopefully the naysayers will be just as accomedating and polite on that thread. When it comes to posting on the net lets breathe first before posting anymore crazy nonsense. ;) About the topic, (kind of) if their is a new god of magic I hope the Sisters are still alive, even if it is in a lesser magical capacity. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-02-07, 01:14 PM | Rinonalyrna- You're welcome. Now, chill out and take a Prozac. Don't flatter yourself. I'm not upset with you, because as I said I'm not concerned with your opinions about what I write. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-02-07, 01:20 PM | That may be partially from lingering fury over what WotC's done to FR's "omnipotent forces of good," however. It was shocking to me that anyone from the FR design team would imply that the Chosen of Mystra are "omnipotent forces of good". Hasn't Ed been telling us for years that that is not the case? And showing us, in his novels? Maybe it's mean to say it, but it's hard not to think of the FR design team as being out of touch when they say stuff like that. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-02-07, 01:30 PM | Right, she (and everyone else the post was directed at) will get an apology when she cleans herself up, stops acting like one of those twelve year old, MMOG loving, playstation owners. What's funny is that I don't recall ever actually dissing MMORPG-lovers, Playstation players, etc. I've played the Playstation. I'm not into MMORPGs, but I don't care if other people like them. And many of my comments are directed at whomever they apply to, regardless of age. If you are the type player who wants your PC to traipse through the Realms knocking down all the NPCs who stand if your way, then I don't care if you are 14 or 40--you have the "spoiled brat mentality" I mentioned before. I don't need an apology from you. If you really do "hate" me, well (*laughs*) you're way more invested in this than I am. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-02-07, 01:39 PM | I can't help but feel a little attacked by the designers, even though I know that's stupid of me. It's not stupid. I feel the same way, and apparently so do plenty of other people. When WotC ends up destroying (even without having "malicious" intentions, necessarily) characters that I've loved for years and grown attached to, how can I not feel attacked? Granted, every one in awhile it makes sense that a beloved character will pass on, and fans of that character are bound to feel sad. But this feels like a deliberate, arbitrary massacre, and I can't say "It makes sense that he would die" any longer. It's not what Faraer calls "organic development". |
| MarkusTay6310-02-07, 03:02 PM | I have an 'organic development' every day... I usually leave it in my toilet, though.... :rolleyes: |
| johnkretzer10-02-07, 04:05 PM | Basically this is a complaining thread which is okay. People that do not like it or wish the posters would stop it should just not read this post. There are a few people that wish to share their distaste with one another. I think they are going in circles, but who cares? This is just one of those threads. Try not to troll. On another note if someone tries to make a post on their positive feelings about the upcoming Realms hopefully the naysayers will be just as accomedating and polite on that thread. Actualy I think for the most part the discussion of the changes has been polite...there have been a few exception on both parts though but that will always be the case with large numbers of people discussion things anonymously. And I'll say this also the debate has gotten stagnate to a degree because well it seems those who like the changes are just as often repeating themselves too. I mean I on a thread I pointed out 9 ways why a campaign world would benefit from having high level good aligned NPCs...and why having soo many gods are great for a setting because of the options...and why graduel changes are better to these RSE...but I have yet to read any responses that actualy defended the changes as good for the Realms playing community as a whole. Besides I have put alot of money into D&D as have many others...so we do have the right to make our displeasure heard. Personaly I am looking to do more than voice my displeasure over the boards...because we have every right to feel betrayed by what they are doing because they pretty much have said to us "you are playing the game wrong...this is our vision and we are going to enforce it." |
| Selvarin10-02-07, 06:36 PM | Some of the ideas aren't horrible. For example, pushing the official time forward by up to a century provides a rationale for why many of the more normal (but beloved) NPC's are no longer with us, and yet provides room for novels set in that bygone time. Especially for novels like The Orc King . Also, people can keep playing in their own time till they 'catch up'. No big whoop. At the same time, as ambivilent about Mystra and her stranglehold on the Weave (and the over-used-to-the-point-of-boring-cliche Shar), did she truly have to die? Why not something half as traumatic as War of the Spider Queen? Really, what if Mystra found something left behind by her predecessor which was being kept in hiding by Oghma regarding magic? Imagine a story of transformation--as she finds out more, her own understanding of magic transforms the Weave and the way magic works in the Realms. Bam! Magic again becomes more mysterious, priests and arcanists alike have something new to discover. And for those with a fetish for Shar, have her steal it away So Mystra can fight her to a standstill, wrest it away and destroy the Shadow Weave in the process, changing the Goddess of the Weave irrevocably--but without killing her. Amazing eh? :rolleyes: WotC, it's time to hand out a few pink slips in order to make room for me on your design team. I don't work cheap. :cool: :P |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-02-07, 06:37 PM | Yes, there's no reason not to voice our displeasure over the direction that this setting--a setting many of us love--has taken. I think I've earned that much, at least. |
| msatran10-02-07, 07:10 PM | I think we should put it in the same place as Markus's organic direction. FLUSH. Richard Baker Must Be Stopped! |
| Dark Wizard10-03-07, 02:00 AM | I'm starting to think that maybe WotC does attentively read the message boards (and looking at sales and surveys of course). I mean, a vocal bunch (can't tell if it's a minority or majority) of people have criticized the Realms in the usual way for years. It didn't get them anywhere until now. It seems the setting is finally being changed virtually according to their exact wishes, drastically and quickly. There has been more catering to that group in the last month than in all of 3e's eight years combined. I mean this is practically their 'liquid' dream. Traditionally they've demanded: - Death of Mystra (by Cyric and/or Shar nonetheless) [Check] - Without rebirth of a goddess of magic [Check so far] - Removal of the Weave from FR [Check] - A non-good deity of magic [If Shar makes any moves, maybe Check] - Cyric doing something useful [Check] - Get rid of Cyric [Check as long as arrest holds and actually contains] - Trim large pantheon(s) [Check] via spectacular deaths [Check] - Successful evil [Check] especially the Zhents [Check] - Shadowdale gets wrecked or conquered [Check more or less] - Elminster gets ruffed up [Check] pushed out of the way [Check] - Seven Sisters get reduced [Check] - Rid the overpowered Chosen of Mystra [According to Chris Perkins, Check] - Too many mages, reduce them [Check] via spectacular deaths [Check] - Setting is too high magic, change it [going by above, Check] - Make the Realms darker (attepted via Points-of-Light approach) [Check] - Too many developed areas [via PoL and Spellplague, Check] - Get rid of the useless areas [via PoL and Spellplague, Check] - Realms needs a shake-up [Check] - Long lasting RSE [Check] - Realms need to be destroyed [Check] - Realms needs to be remade or overhauled [Check] arguably both this and above have or will come about - Drow are annoying and good, make them evil again [Trying to it seems] So that's the majority of the loudest specific complaints that seem to have cropped up over the years (decades). About the only things (most of them aren't too major and more meta-game than in-game) people have called for that WotC hasn't done yet are: - Kill Drizzt [Too profitable and iconic, so No way] - Kill Elminster [Too profitable and iconic, No] - Non-canon Novels [No answer yet, but good sales, so probably No] - Fix up the other continents/settings [Keep dreaming small fry, No] - Halt to RSEs [How else do you expect WotC to accomplished the above Checks, plus RSEs market themselves, No] - Hold timeline in place [Progression allows new books, No] If anything,the recent changes show it is useless to remain quiet. The more you say, the better you say it, the longer and more often you say it, the more noticeable you are when saying what you want to say, the more likely WotC will see your perspective. Then they might consider the subset of the market represented by you and like-minded forum posters a worthwhile consumer base. If it worked for the old detractors, it will work for new detractors against the new Realms. It makes sense, how else besides raw sales numbers will they know what people think and what those details are. If they feel ready for the new DI setup, WotC probably now considers the message boards a potentially valid sample of their consumers. I'm all for free and open discussion on the forums. My views are not guaranteed to succeed but one has to at least try in order to get anything they want. |
| capnvan10-03-07, 06:09 AM | I confess I don't much like the "well put" posts, but, well... Well put. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-03-07, 01:30 PM | I have read that we got the Shadow Weave (and the Shadovar) because people complained about Mystra and her Chosen being too powerful and too good, and there was nothing in the world to counter them (yeah right:rolleyes: ). Of course, that wasn't enough...so yes, now the rule of the game is "reduction"...especially when it applies to Mystra, her Chosen, and the other forces of good. |
| The Simbul10-05-07, 02:01 AM | What happens to them with the death of mystra?When Mystra was slain during the Time of Troubles, her Chosen did not suddenly implode in a burst of silver flames. More precisely, Mystra's Chosen were specifically selected/created by her to act as vessels for the Weave in the event of her destruction, to safeguard it from usurpation by the other gods, and to guard against any potential exploitation of its power by Mystra herself. The divine spark within them persisted beyond Mystra's death during the Time of Troubles, and it could not be seized from them by any being without their consent--not even by Mystra herself. From what we do know about the Spellplague (as indicated in Grand History of the Realms), and combined with all other history, lore, and precedent, it seems perfectly logical to me that of all the mages in the realms the Chosen of Mystra should be the least likely to perish as a result of the Spellplague. The 1385 DR entry states that as Mystra perishes and the Weave breaks its bonds, that thousands of mages are either destroyed or driven insane in the ensuing chaos. This is clearly in reference to the recurring theme in the realms that the raw power of the Weave can often corrupt the minds or consume the bodies of those it directly touches if they are ill prepared to handle it. The existing Chosen of Mystra were specifically selected by Mystra for their very ability to resist and endure the extremes of the raw power of the Weave--namely its purported tendency to either drive one insane (such as the case with Sammaster) or destroy someone entirely (such as the case with Aloevan of Ardeep). Chosen such as Elminster have proven more able than most touched by the Lady of Mysteries to resist the extremes of the Weave and the ill effects of bearing much of her power. Moreover, due to a lack of suitable mortal vessels who could withstand this burden, Mystra specifically created and engineered the Seven Sisters to have the very physical and mental fortitude (vis-a-vis exceptional ability scores[?]) necessary to serve this purpose as well. From the very moment of their conception they were exposed to and immersed the raw power of the Weave, and it lay dormant within them for decades or centuries until Mystra finally awakened it in each of them in turn, and thus made them her Chosen. If the raw power of the Weave breaks its bonds, and in turn consumes the minds and bodies of thousands of mages, then it would seem fairly obvious to me that those most accustomed to its extremes, dangers, and perils should be the most resilient against the chaos that ensues. More precisely, it would seem fairly reasonable to me that if magic in the Realms does survive Mystra's destruction--in the new form it takes in 4E--then the Chosen aught to be the ones who have a hand in steering it to safety in its new state, and preventing ANY deity (new or old) from claiming dominion over magic at all. From all that has been revealed thus far, it seems perfectly reasonable to conclude that if the Chosen of Mystra meet some inglorious or contrived end as a result of the edition change and the Spellplague, then it will not be one that is rooted in any previous realms history or precedent. It will rather be a contrived scenario in order to appease those few who vocally despise them, at the expense of any silent majority of the fanbase who are either indifferent or amicable to their presence in the realms. (note: since multiple instances of similar topics often require multiple instances of similar replies. As such, I have found it necessary to replicate much of this reply from similar replies I have made in similar threads) |
| The Simbul10-05-07, 03:04 AM | Actually, I found the Seven Sisters one of the more palatable books by Ed. Even if the characters are pretty much all the same.....So as not to burden anyone else with too much reading, or with the necessity to acquire books long out of print, why don't we do the following; Lets all read the biographical and historical text on Storm, the Simbul, and Alustriel in their respective NPC Spotlight sections of the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (on pages 140, 200, and 276 respectively). Those being the only three of the sisters to be highlighted in that book, and that being the one book that nearly every random passerby on this thread should have reasonable access to. Now, using those paragraphs of text as a starting point, please inform me in detail as to how the Bard of Shadowdale, the Witch-Queen of Aglarond, and the High Lady of the Silver Marches are all "the same character". |
| The Simbul10-05-07, 03:07 AM | Case in point - Alustriel's near-useless appearance in Blackstaff. She could have been replaced with any of the sisters, or left out entirely, and it would have made no difference what-so-ever in the story.Alustriel is arguably the closest of the seven sisters to Laeral and Khelben. When Alustriel was nearly slain by Sammaster, it was Khelben and Laeral who came to her rescue. When Laeral was later driven mad by the crown of horns, it was Alustriel who aided Khelben in confronting and restoring Laeral to her former self. It would seem rather silly for Alustriel to somehow refuse to aid Khelben when his hour of need was at hand. Moreover, as a result of these aforementioned occurrences, and as a precaution against potential others, the three Chosen share a magical link by which they can call upon one and other, without resorting to speech or spellcasting, in order to come to the aid of one and other. Therefore it would seem rather silly--and potentially dangerous--for Alustriel to not be fully apprised of what would take place upon the High Moor. Beyond that, of all the seven, Alustriel is the most logical choice for Laeral to have confided the knowledge of her pregnancy with, not only for the reasons above, but for the more relevant fact that Alustriel has borne no less than twelve sons in her lifetime. As for Khelben's secrets and his plans, Alustriel left the ranks of the Harpers in order to establish the Silver Marches, and thus unlike Storm and Dove she has no conflicting political allegiances in terms of Khelben and his breakaway Moonstars, and in turn is less likely to question his plans or reveal them to others. Beyond that, Alustriel would logically be more suited to casting High Magic than Dove or Storm, even if the other two sisters could potentially do so. In addition, of all the Seven, Alustriel has the purest idealistic vision and hope in the innate goodness of people in the realms and the possibilities for the future, and as such is a far more suitable archmage to take part in the ritual to rebuild the City of High Magic than say a violent, pessimistic realist like the Simbul. Meanwhile the Chosen of Mystra who were actually gathered at the ritual are those who likely had the most experience with Elven High Magic insofar as the lore and history of the realms is concerned--Elminster helped raise the mythal over Myth Drannor, Alustriel is responsible the wards of Silverymoon, and Khelben and Laeral use rites akin to Elven High Magic rituals to imbue Moonstar Agents with their supernatural and spell-like powers. By your own admission you own but have not read The Seven Sisters AD&D Accessory, at least not before composing the statement above. I cannot speak for him, but I am more than willing to assume Steven Schend did manage to peruse the book--and logically everything else pertaining to the Chosen--sometime before composing Blackstaff. |
| Markustay10-05-07, 02:27 PM | I only read those things that interest me, sorry. I also own 2e Cult of the Dragon, but have never even cracked its covers. At least I gave Seven Sisters a chance before it bored me. Its a matter of taste really, I'm just not 'into' them. That being said, I never even heard of Sammaster until I read GHotR. :P I completely ignore the existance of the CotD in MY Realms, and will continue to do so. I liked Laeral when she wore that crown... perhaps I'll give it back to her. :devil: Either way, the designers have already stated that we fans are not going to like what happens to the chosen, so all of this is a moot point, They're goners, get over it. :bored: But don't feel bad... so is everyone else.... :rolleyes: |
| Faraer10-05-07, 03:02 PM | On one hand, TSR shouldn't have commissioned The Seven Sisters in place of more generally useful Realmslore. On the other, the book is extremely informative about the Realms and how it works, going far beyond its nominal subject, like all Ed's books in the FOR series. |
| 18DELTA10-05-07, 05:44 PM | I have read that we got the Shadow Weave (and the Shadovar) because people complained about Mystra and her Chosen being too powerful and too good, and there was nothing in the world to counter them (yeah right:rolleyes: ). Of course, that wasn't enough...so yes, now the rule of the game is "reduction"...especially when it applies to Mystra, her Chosen, and the other forces of good. Cause WotC is removing Eds fingerprints from the setting! Then 10 years from now another crew of D&D R&D, will do the same to the current crew. So on & so forth ad nausem!;) Everything that made the Realms a beutiful setting Ed put in. What is being removed, What Ed created! |
| Zsych10-05-07, 10:38 PM | I think the Shade princes could actually have worked out as evil counterparts to the 7 sisters with more fleshing out(assuming that was the intent). I persnally don't expect anything to happen to the sisters(unless Qilue really is dying... don't remember the relevant stuff) |
| GothicDan10-05-07, 10:39 PM | They've already told us that the Chosen's fate isn't going to be very... "happy making" for those that like them. So I'm sure you'll approve, Zysch. ;) |
| Selvarin10-05-07, 11:04 PM | I think the Shade princes could actually have worked out as evil counterparts to the 7 sisters with more fleshing out(assuming that was the intent). I persnally don't expect anything to happen to the sisters(unless Qilue really is dying... don't remember the relevant stuff) What, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers? *Can't remember how many princes of Shade there are* And it's already been confirmed (as others have said) some Chosen will survive but other won't. My bet is Qilue bites the dust. Few drow stories don't involve a good drow dying (unless it's a few evil ones doing the dying). |
| GothicDan10-05-07, 11:17 PM | I'm thinking WotC will do a sweeping "all Chosen of Mystra die except.." a handful. Maybe 2-3. Elminster's going to live. I bet the Simbul will. And then either Laerel, Alustriel, or Dove. I REALLY hope the Simbul lives, actually. I love the fact that she's portrayed as insanely powerful, and a battle monster - it makes her a LEGEND. |
| Selvarin10-05-07, 11:26 PM | Yep, Simbul's a force of nature but I bet they want her moved out of Aglarond so some other things can happen. |
| 18DELTA10-05-07, 11:40 PM | What, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers? *Can't remember how many princes of Shade there are* And it's already been confirmed (as others have said) some Chosen will survive but other won't. My bet is Qilue bites the dust. Few drow stories don't involve a good drow dying (unless it's a few evil ones doing the dying). :rofl: :bow: :clap: :dancin: :cheer: :ayyyy!: That was priceless. Seven Shades for Seven Sisters!;) :P |
| Selvarin10-05-07, 11:43 PM | Yep, and the brides will all wear black. :rimshot: Except the dead one, I'm thinking only latex will work for her. |
| 18DELTA10-05-07, 11:52 PM | Yep, and the brides will all wear black. :rimshot: Except the dead one, I'm thinking only latex will work for her. Yeah if the boys are anything like papa. Those sisters will be busy poping out little Shadow Fire users! Cause Lord Shade got busy awhile back if you know what I mean!:P |
| Selvarin10-06-07, 12:08 AM | Except they can't have kids without Mystra's permission/assistance. (Nevermind Alustriel and her sons, and the Simbul's daughter, and...hmm, a few exceptions.) Hmm...if Dove survives maybe she can finally concieve. |
| Zsych10-06-07, 02:50 AM | @GothicDan: I like the 7 sisters fine(minus the Simbul :P) Also, I see no actual reason for them to die, unless Shar has sent armies of servants to hunt them down, with enough support to get past all their defences(which admittedly would probably be in bad shape... but they have non-magical allies) Plus, at least Alustriel and Silverymoon should stick around for decency. Thay won't be around anymore so I don't know if the Simbul will be needed, but she could possibly expand and create an Aglarondan empire(that I fully expect to actually be evil, since thats part of how I view the Simbul and the world that she would create). I think a twisted reflection of Thay ruled by the Simbul with an expanded Silverymoon ruled by Alustriel... both former chosen of Mystra, would be quite interesting... especially if the two places could become political enemies. ... I can't say I'm really understanding why Wizards wants to make sweeping changes to the Realms in one go, and push the timeline forward in a way that much of current knowledge of the realms becomes obsolete. Unless the time jump is really just 10 years, but still, if most strong mages died the whole situation would become very strange. Wonder if the spell plague will also be bringing down liches and other non-human mages. Wonder if the Sarrukh will be able to sleep through this one. |
| Storm_Silverhand10-06-07, 08:45 AM | Heya, Except they can't have kids without Mystra's permission/assistance. (Nevermind Alustriel and her sons, and the Simbul's daughter, and...hmm, a few exceptions.) Laeral has had three children, one is not Khelbens. (Khelben's two are actually still on the way, but...) Dove has had at least one child, a son, with Florin. Alustriel has had 12 sons we know about, who all share the same elven father, and has also had daughters (and maybe even other sons), an unknown number of them, that we don't know anything about. Qilue has also had at least one daughter. Elminster has fathered an unknown number of children. Laspeera and Filfaeril are both directly related to him somehow (though they both called themselves his daughters to Narnra, perhaps as a comfort to her), and the only child I know of who has been named is Narnra from Elminster's Daughter. Khelben has fathered an unknown number of children down the ages, two of which are the children Laeral currently is carrying. (Also, Khelben the younger is his son, right?). Sylune is dead, I don't think she had any children before her death. Storm has always wanted children, but to her sorrow has never been able to have them. The Simbul is waiting on Elminster to sire a child on her. (I am not aware of her having any children to this point, but I could be wrong given your comment about her daughter in your post, Selvarin... not that it really makes much difference.) Other Chosen of Mystra - I have not the slightest clue. Now... The former, all the ones who have had or sired children... There's nothing anywhere saying that Mystra didn't approve and allow the children to be conceived. Because of that little clause in the "Chosen Contract", we must then assume that she did approve of all these children, and it was by her grace that they were conceived, borne, and born. Obviously she hasn't wanted Storm to have children at all, or else Storm is really and truly barren (but a god could fix that without even thinking about it, so we're still left with the former idea - that Mystra hasn't wanted her to have children.) Hmm...if Dove survives maybe she can finally concieve. She's already had one child, and it appears that the child is part of at least one plan of Mielikki and Mystra for Dove and Florin. Storm's the "barren" one. My theory is that she is, in fact, genuinely barren... But once Mystra is dead and gone, perhaps she won't be subject to Mystra's whim and will be able to take magically corrective measures. (Or else, Storm not bearing any children despite wanting them could be a sign that Mystra had a special plan for her that we haven't seen yet - perhaps Storm is the new goddess of magic? :P But I'm biased, as you can probably tell! :D) |
| Old Sage10-06-07, 10:51 AM | Laeral has had three children, one is not Khelbens. (Khelben's two are actually still on the way, but...)Laeral has a daughter named Maura, who is the consort of the Crown Prince Lamruil of Evermeet. Alustriel has had 12 sons we know about, who all share the same elven father, and has also had daughters (and maybe even other sons), an unknown number of them, that we don't know anything about.The father of all the Aerasumé is Taerntym Tanagathor/"Taern Moonweather" -- per Steven Schend:- "> Mention of Alustriel's sons can be found in her description in the accessory > "Seven Sisters". One is also mentioned in the Silverymoon Dragon Annual #1 > article and another in The North boxed set (Cities book, p.55). > > As for other "official" references there are none....yet. Keep a look out in > the upcoming Cloak & Dagger for a mention of another Aerasume (the one who > features in "The Simbul's Gift" IIRC). Unofficially, given Steven's love for > Khelben and the city of Silverymoon, it's likely that they have been named, > detailed and their dad has been named. Will the info ever see the light of > day? With Steven gone from TSR now, probably not .... Oh ye of little faith....... George, you should know better.... ;) As y'all can see by the date on this discussion/question with Ed on the references on the Tall Ones, I've given some thought to the sons of Alustriel quite a bit. Not that I needed to take them much farther than these notes for the purposes of the Cloak & Dagger and some other Silverymoon work I've done. Now bear in mind that none of this is official any longer, as I never published any of this as an FR designer. I'm just providing it to y'all on the list as a courtesy for your own campaigns (and if the designers who skulk on this list find it interesting (James? Jim? Hiya guys..) I can always expand on it in DRAGON or elsewhere.. Steven Schend Who unofficially adopted Silverymoon as a pet project for 2 years before leaving WotC... At 05:06 PM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote: > >North boxed set for Alustriel's sons? Bob in Streams of Silver? fr5 >Savage Frontier? Don't know where that ref might be, myself.... Actually, I found it in the back of 7 Sisters, under Alustriel's bit in the campaign use chapter. They allegedly all use the surname Aerasume, which translates to Silverymoon, though I'm going to amend that and scatter their surnames among our three options now (though all with the same father). Their names are (alphabetically) Andelver, Boesild, Dolthauvin, Elinthalar, Ghaelryss, Inthylyn, Lilinthar, Methrammar, Naerond, Raerilarr, Tarthilmor, and Uoundeld. They seem to have connections to the Harpers (since they can contact Cylyria Dragonbreast and Sharanralee of Everlund as well as Mom....). Tarthilmor Aerasume (CG hem F11/W12) is set as one of the two Captains of the Spellguard under Jorus Azuremantle. DRAGON ANNUAL #1, p60 Methrammar Aerasume, the Shining Guard (LG hem F14/W12) and commander of Luruar's armies. THE NORTH, Cities p55 At this point, here's my suggestions for birthdates and whatnot on these guys (of whom there are now 17, but 5 of them are either unknown to the Silverymoon folks but famous within the Moonwood and their father's people or are dead: Alustriel Silverhand + Taerntym Tanagathor/"Taern Moonweather" (sorta married, at least as these two go...they're soulmates but kept apart often) Dalbrant Tanagathor (1240 - 1313?) Disappeared while on quest given him by Taerntym Hardorbryn Tanagathor (1242 - 1343) Twin of Alondel; died in battle with the Moonlight Men Alondel Tanagathor (1242 - 1343) Twin of Hardorbryn; died in battle with the Moonlight Men Boesild Aerasume (1244 - ?) Oldest known/acknowledged surviving son of Alustriel; former apprentice of Khelben the Elder just after he left Waterdeep in 1256; now part of the Teukiira/Moonstars. Elnriyr Moonweather (1250 - 1347) Priest of Sehanine; died in the fire that destroys Everdusk Hall Baerndar Tanagathor (1266 - ?) Uoundeld of Silverymoon (1269 - ?) Teacher at the Lady's College (Tactical & Strategic Spellcasting) Dolthauvin Aerasume (1295 - ?) Wanderer in the Moonwood & Coldwood Elinthalar Tanagathor (1299 - ?) Twin of Andelver; wanderer of Lurkwood Andelver Tressymfriend (1299 - ?) Twin of Elinthalar; wanderer of Lurkwood Methrammar Aerasume (1304 - ?) The Shining Guard & most recognized son of Alustriel Inthylyn of Silverymoon (1314 - ?) ????????????????? Lilinthar Moonweather (1337 - ?) Triplet brother of Naerond & Tarthilmor; huntmaster of Moonweather clan in Moonwood? Naerond Aerasume (1337 - ?) Triplet brother of Lilinthar & Tarthilmor; crusader/mage for Mystra? Tarthilmor Aerasume (1337 - ?) Triplet brother of Naerond & Lilinthar; Spell Captain of the Spellguard in Silverymoon Raerilarr Aerasume (1340 - ?) Smallest of Tall Ones at 6'7" and nicknamed "Tiny" by brothers; most hot-tempered of brothers, rabid drow hunter (and prejudiced vs. dwarves for some reason and therefore often absent from his mother's court for obvious reasons) Ghaelryss the Bold (1345 - ?) Uses no surname, raised in Silverymoon, living in Everlund? I see the younger ones bonding more like brothers, while the older ones (especially those among the elves) are almost more like uncles or foster fathers to the others, as Alustriel got too busy to help raise the children in the 1270s and 1340s (see Silverymoon timeline). How their levels and abilities differ, and how their deific backgrounds (as grandchildren of Mystra) might be reflected along with their half-elven blood is yet unknown--I see a few with silver hair, all of them with longer lifespans than average half-elves, and enhanced abilities almost equal to full elves (due to ties to Weave, including reverie rather than sleep). How's that? With this being the case, I've adopted Boesild as my regional contact for Khelben, and we can easily ensconce him in the Vault of the Sages or the Lady's College in Silverymoon. That work for you? SES" ... And Ed has confirmed she has daughters, though they've received little attention in published Realmslore. Qilue has also had at least one daughter.Who is now deceased. Elminster has fathered an unknown number of children.Remembering, from Ed - "Over his thousand-some years of lusty living, he’s sired quite a few offspring, though not nearly as many as he would have done if Mystra hadn’t been applying her silent “you’re one of my Chosen, and I don’t want you to father anyone just now, so here’s my birth control” powers so often." Laspeera and Filfaeril are both directly related to him somehow (though they both called themselves his daughters to Narnra, perhaps as a comfort to her), and the only child I know of who has been named is Narnra from Elminster's Daughter.Aye. Filfaeril isn't literally a daughter of Elminster, but rather a descendant of his. Khelben has fathered an unknown number of children down the ages, two of which are the children Laeral currently is carrying. (Also, Khelben the younger is his son, right?).Many of Khelben's children exist as brief references in sources like Steven Schend's mind and as part of his work on the "Khelben Arunsun Official Timeline". And in Blackstaff. Storm's the "barren" one. My theory is that she is, in fact, genuinely barren... But once Mystra is dead and gone, perhaps she won't be subject to Mystra's whim and will be able to take magically corrective measures. (Or else, Storm not bearing any children despite wanting them could be a sign that Mystra had a special plan for her that we haven't seen yet - perhaps Storm is the new goddess of magic? :P But I'm biased, as you can probably tell! :D)A little from Ed:- "Storm wasn’t barren at birth, but was damaged during the adventures of her “teenaged” years (actually, of her teens and twenties). As to the precise nature of what happened to her; well, that’s where the NDA comes in for now, I’m afraid. As of “right now, Realmstime” (and over all the time back to that early calamity, which I will go so far as to term a “violation”) Storm can conceive only with divine aid (Mystra, Azuth) - - not just godly approval, but active godly help. In the matter of approval, she is “controlled” by Mystra in the same way that all Chosen of Mystra are. This restriction doesn’t bother her in the slightest; she enjoys mothering others, as Rinonalyrna Fathomlin pointed out, and she also enjoys being free to do anything sexually without fear of becoming pregnant. Not that she is any sort of sexual predator; I mean, rather, that it’s one more thing she just doesn’t have to worry about. She’s perfectly content with things as they are, being as she gets to “mother” scores of Harpers - - in the same way many real-world women get to be a mother to many foster children, regardless of whether or not they have (or can have) any of their own." |
| Selvarin10-06-07, 02:09 PM | Aha, so it was only Storm with the issue! (I have all of the books, etc., but I don't have time to sift through every single one.) Personally I like Alustriel other than the 'lady all about town' thing but that is minor, we do with the Chosen as we wish in our own campaigns. Hope they don't kill the Chosens' children. But hey...maybe they're all latent 'Chosen' as well (the children), kinda like with Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Eh ehh ehhh, whattaya think? :D :king: |
| 18DELTA10-06-07, 02:50 PM | Sage did I ever tell you that, your my Hero?:D |
| Selvarin10-06-07, 03:02 PM | I hope you don't start singing the Bette Midler tune. |
| Markustay10-07-07, 12:10 AM | Hmmmm... It almost appears as if Storm has been 'set-up' to bear the young of a god. Perhaps a 4e newcomer to the pantheon that will give us some connection to a deceased one... like Helm? Iyachtu-Helm, anyone? ;) To be serious for a moment, I can see the designers making some of the new Realms NPCs decendents of ones now passed. This way, they hope we will still feel some sort of connection to the setting we know. |
| Selvarin10-07-07, 12:40 AM | Hmmmm... It almost appears as if Storm has been 'set-up' to bear the young of a god. Perhaps a 4e newcomer to the pantheon that will give us some connection to a deceased one... like Helm? Iyachtu-Helm, anyone? ;) To be serious for a moment, I can see the designers making some of the new Realms NPCs decendents of ones now passed. This way, they hope we will still feel some sort of connection to the setting we know. Maybe the designers will have a satyr god try to romance her. He'd be a Faerunian version of Larry the Cable Guy. :P It's possible that some Chosen will be more likely to get killed off based upon if they have enough descendents to carry the torch. For example, Alustriel has more than a few. Perhaps her legacy will be the dream of a peaceful kingdom in the North. *hmm* |
| Dark Wizard10-07-07, 12:43 AM | The descendants of the old NPCs could be a double-edged sword. To some people they will appear as clones of the original, so not as appealing. Others will only see them as filling in the out-of-control roles again. Worst is if the whole cycle repeats and authors pick up these characters as their own and tell all their stories without regard for the game-side of the setting. Then in a few years time we're back to square one. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-07-07, 01:46 AM | The descendants of the old NPCs could be a double-edged sword. To some people they will appear as clones of the original, so not as appealing. Others will only see them as filling in the out-of-control roles again. Worst is if the whole cycle repeats and authors pick up these characters as their own and tell all their stories without regard for the game-side of the setting. Then in a few years time we're back to square one. I totally agree. Not that I think that these NPCs are harmful to the setting (certainly not!), but from the viewpoint of WotC it'd be counter-productive. |
| Selvarin10-07-07, 01:49 AM | Yep, it could be like Jr. Chosen and whatnot. In any event the descendents of various characters would need careful writing, otherwise...yep, as you said. Or worse. |
| Dark Wizard10-07-07, 02:22 AM | When I think about the children of the famous Realms characters written by someone other than their creators (or handed out as assignments or just in general even) I get a strange vibe as if I'm reading some sort of fanfic. Though this may be influencing my personal experience for other settings. ::guilty grin:: |
| Selvarin10-07-07, 02:36 AM | Didn't Elaine Cunningham include one of Alustriel's sons in a novel of hers? She seems to have been pretty good about it. I know what you mean, though. Sometimes it's just a name-dropping thing. |
| Dark Wizard10-07-07, 02:48 AM | I meant as main characters mostly. Name-dropping is okay. Besides Elaine is one of the few who pulls off something like that well, like when Ed keeps complimenting (beyond being just courteous or supportive) her depiction of Elaith that probably means she got that character down (whether or not if he was exactly as Ed used him for his home game). |
| 18DELTA10-07-07, 04:33 PM | The descendants of the old NPCs could be a double-edged sword. To some people they will appear as clones of the original, so not as appealing. Others will only see them as filling in the out-of-control roles again. Worst is if the whole cycle repeats and authors pick up these characters as their own and tell all their stories without regard for the game-side of the setting. Then in a few years time we're back to square one. Thats probably whats going happen anyway when 5E hits in 8 years!:rolleyes: |
| Stigger10-08-07, 03:58 AM | Geez, go away for a little while and this is what I read first... just makes my bloody head hurt for the pain of it. I have a feeling I'm not going to like where this 4e stuff is taking the Realms... feels like White Wolf's travesty of the Reckoning all over again.... |
| Suin Bahhar10-08-07, 09:38 AM | Welcome back Stigger! ^^ |
| Fire_Wraith10-08-07, 10:56 AM | I think one of the things that bothers me so much about the idea of so many of these characters that we love getting killed off in rapid succession is the feeling that it will rob their deaths of any meaning, and leave their stories feeling unfinished, or unfulfilled. I'm reminded of a (in)famous quote by a particularly evil dictator: 'One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.' While not exactly the way it was meant in, it illustrates the point. A single character, dying in a story, can be a very profound event, both for the reader, and for the other characters in the story. Too many deaths though, in such specific terms, dilute the effect. When one member of a cast of characters dies, we focus on that event. When half the cast dies, there is no focus - just slaughter. Ideally, this is why writers tend not to let the reader get to know anyone that is slated to die, unless intending to make a specific point of that death. If a hero falls in battle, amid a hundred faceless comrades, we focus only on the hero amid the carnage. I can think of several instances where too many primary or secondary character deaths at once have turned me off from various stories. Dragons of Summer Flame is one that has been cited in reference to the current situation in the Forgotten Realms, since it accompanied drastic changes to the gameworld (and not for the better). While I've greatly enjoyed most of R.A. Salvatore's work, both in the Realms and original fiction, I was turned off of the Demon Wars saga by the first book for similar reasons. It seemed like I was introduced to an entire cast of characters, only to have them all die save two by the end of the first book. I'm sure there were probably good reasons for why certain characters die off, but at a given point, I just don't want to read anymore. This is about where I feel things are heading with all of the rumored NPC and God killings that are coming. As I've said in other posts, it's one thing for Khelben to sacrifice himself in a meaningful way - it's another for major NPCs to just start going "poof" in the prelude text, a la Sylune or Halaster in the recent Shadowdale and Undermountain adventures, respectively. It just feels like it's going to be too much, and that what's to come will be more of it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-08-07, 02:00 PM | Didn't Elaine Cunningham include one of Alustriel's sons in a novel of hers? She seems to have been pretty good about it. No, that wasn't Elaine, that I can recall. Rich Baker put Methrammar into the first book of his Last Mythal series, and I thought...well, I won't go into what I thought about that here. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-08-07, 02:03 PM | A single character, dying in a story, can be a very profound event, both for the reader, and for the other characters in the story. Too many deaths though, in such specific terms, dilute the effect. When one member of a cast of characters dies, we focus on that event. When half the cast dies, there is no focus - just slaughter. And a sense that all those deaths are arbitrary and meant to fulfill some meta-textual purpose (that is, a purpose having nothing to do with the actual story). Stigger: Welcome to the club! |
| Selvarin10-08-07, 02:07 PM | Well one could always imagine most of those characters going into 'magical protective custody' until the current regime gets shuffled to different posts and positions. :P Yep, DoSF was the last straw for me. I did pick up one DL book a few years ago but I never got around to buying any more. That says a lot I guess. I still have a place in my heart for the old campaign. Btw, Dark Wizard mentioned how the descendents of such characters can appear as clones. What about Khelben's lookalike namesake Kelben 'Ravencloak' Arunsun? He migrated to Greyhawk a while back, you think they'll send Cyric or some other assassin lackey to take him out? :D |
| Selvarin10-08-07, 02:15 PM | You know this begs the question, do you suppose they going to kill off Amlaruil now that A) there's a female coronal in Myth Drannor and B) the Tree of Souls is being transferred to the mainland? She may deserve a rest from carrying her burdens but plunging Evermeet to the bottom of the ocean isn't the way to go for a vacation. |
| Alediran10-08-07, 02:24 PM | You know this begs the question, do you suppose they going to kill off Amlaruil now that A) there's a female coronal in Myth Drannor and B) the Tree of Souls is being transferred to the mainland? She may deserve a rest from carrying her burdens but plunging Evermeet to the bottom of the ocean isn't the way to go for a vacation. If they do that then they'll make enemies of at least two thirds of the boards, me included. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-08-07, 02:29 PM | If they do that then they'll make enemies of at least two thirds of the boards, me included. I'll just say that I couldn't stand the plot (or the outcome) of the Last Mythal series... Take from that what you will. |
| Alediran10-08-07, 02:30 PM | I'll just say that I couldn't stand the plot (or the outcome) of the Last Mythal series... Take from that what you will. At least for me is a good framework to make a Myth Drannor recovery campaign (chapter 4th of my current campaign, it gives me the possibility to use Heroes of Battle rules to make good massive battles) |
| Stigger10-08-07, 04:57 PM | Well, occassionally a meaningless death can have an impact if its done properly... I don't think that's going to be the case here, but I'm just saying... ;) |
| Bonzai10-08-07, 05:31 PM | I didn't mind the Last Mythal trilogy. I liked the over all theme of an Elven Return. It was a lot cleaner than my campaign based around the restoration of Myth Drannor. In my campaign, Myth Drannor was reclaimed not by elves alone, but by a force composed of humans, dwarves, Moon elves, Half Elves, haflings, gnomes and even some half orcs. They all worked together to drive out the demons, and worse who thrived there. They were able to seal up the portals, at the cost of destroying the Mythal. Then Bit by bit, they were able to clean out the ruins, and reclaim the city. No Sirenshee or Crown blade, no glorious return of the elves. No high magic, or repaired Mythals. It was brought about by the races working together, realizing the Colonal's dream of unity and brotherhood. After the city was reclaimed, they settled it, electing the human leader of the expedition as the new Colonal. Three months after their victory, an Enbessy of Sun elves from Evereska and Evermeet arrive, claiming the city in the name of the elven people, and demand that the settlers leave. The settlers refuse, and the campaign ended with the threat of a war with the elves and the newly reformed Myth Drannor hanging in the air. Some how I think most people would prefer the Last Mythal Trilogy's ending over my campaign. LOL. |
| Suin Bahhar10-08-07, 05:43 PM | Nice diplomacy campaign right there. I feel the tension. Well done. |
| Stigger10-08-07, 05:49 PM | Think I'd have preferred your version Bonzai... :) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-08-07, 07:12 PM | I didn't mind the Last Mythal trilogy. I liked the over all theme of an Elven Return. It was a lot cleaner than my campaign based around the restoration of Myth Drannor. That is one of many reasons why I disliked it. No restoration of Myth Drannor should ever be "clean" and neat. In my campaign, Myth Drannor was reclaimed not by elves alone, but by a force composed of humans, dwarves, Moon elves, Half Elves, haflings, gnomes and even some half orcs. They all worked together to drive out the demons, and worse who thrived there. They were able to seal up the portals, at the cost of destroying the Mythal. Then Bit by bit, they were able to clean out the ruins, and reclaim the city. No Sirenshee or Crown blade, no glorious return of the elves. No high magic, or repaired Mythals. It was brought about by the races working together, realizing the Colonal's dream of unity and brotherhood. After the city was reclaimed, they settled it, electing the human leader of the expedition as the new Colonal. Three months after their victory, an Enbessy of Sun elves from Evereska and Evermeet arrive, claiming the city in the name of the elven people, and demand that the settlers leave. The settlers refuse, and the campaign ended with the threat of a war with the elves and the newly reformed Myth Drannor hanging in the air. Some how I think most people would prefer the Last Mythal Trilogy's ending over my campaign. LOL. I love your campaign, actually, precisely because everything isn't all tied up into a neat package (complete with a bow) as it was in the books. A neat package created by and for a bunch of NPC pet characters that I could not care less about. |
| johnkretzer10-08-07, 07:32 PM | I didn't mind the Last Mythal trilogy. I liked the over all theme of an Elven Return. It was a lot cleaner than my campaign based around the restoration of Myth Drannor. In my campaign, Myth Drannor was reclaimed not by elves alone, but by a force composed of humans, dwarves, Moon elves, Half Elves, haflings, gnomes and even some half orcs. They all worked together to drive out the demons, and worse who thrived there. They were able to seal up the portals, at the cost of destroying the Mythal. Then Bit by bit, they were able to clean out the ruins, and reclaim the city. No Sirenshee or Crown blade, no glorious return of the elves. No high magic, or repaired Mythals. It was brought about by the races working together, realizing the Colonal's dream of unity and brotherhood. After the city was reclaimed, they settled it, electing the human leader of the expedition as the new Colonal. Three months after their victory, an Enbessy of Sun elves from Evereska and Evermeet arrive, claiming the city in the name of the elven people, and demand that the settlers leave. The settlers refuse, and the campaign ended with the threat of a war with the elves and the newly reformed Myth Drannor hanging in the air. Some how I think most people would prefer the Last Mythal Trilogy's ending over my campaign. LOL. I loved it...Question how were the PCs involved? Also your way even if it was a novel creates something that offers alot more then their solution. Personaly I didn't think I would like any story of the retaking of Myth Drannor because it was something that the PCs should do...in your campaign you did well and left alot of room for more adventures for either that group or a new group.....:clap: |
| Alediran10-09-07, 10:02 AM | If you continue your campaign, give Myth Drannor to the elves, it's theirs and it has always been. You can make both groups join forces, but the Crownblade is the one thing that decides who rules over Cormanthor's forest and will only chose an elf. |
| Stigger10-09-07, 10:21 AM | Screw the elves, they ditched Cormanthyr, so let the people who bled for it to be reclaimed keep it I say. :P |
| Alediran10-09-07, 11:11 AM | They didn't ditched Cormanthyr, they where forced out. If the Khov'Annilesa hadn't attacked then Myth Drannor would still be in the hands of the elves. And Sembia and Zhentil Keep would not exist. |
| MarkusTay6310-09-07, 02:37 PM | The only case in the RW of a race claiming a parcel of land because of ancient previous ownership is Israel. By your logic, the Americans should all move out of the U.S. and give the continent back to the Indians, right? :D Something I'd be all in favor for, BTW. ;) |
| Bonzai10-09-07, 03:19 PM | Thanks all for the kind praise. Yes, the PC's all had an intergal part in the reclamaition. The whole thing was started by a charismatic human bard. It's been so long now, that I've forgotten his name. The Bard was a decendant of a human soldier who grew up in Myth Drannor, and died fighting to protect the refugee's retreat. His journal was passed down through the generations, giving glowing praise to the utopia the colanal had created, and lamenting the tragedy that befell it after his death. The Bard vowed at an early age to champion the Colonals dream, and restore the city. Over the years he put together a rag tag following of adventurers and kindred spirits, and began in earnest. The PC's were recruited with the promise of danger, treasure, and furthering a worthy cause. The PC's ended up discovering and shutting down several portals, and discovering that the portals were being created by the corrupted Mythal. Then after a long battle, they destroyed the Mythal (by destroying it's anchor), and set about the task of finally defeating the demon's leader. After that, the crusaders were able to go room by room and clean out the city. When the Elves showed up, it was designed to be a real bitter moment. The players had worked so hard to realize the Colonal's dream, only to see that his very people were unable to live up to it. No one was willing to abandon what they worked so hard to achieve, so there threat of war seemed inevitable. If I had continued with this campaign, I would have sent them on a quest to recover the crown blade. I hadn't written it out fully yet, but ultimatley they would fail. However, the people of Myth Drannor would band together, and decide that they don't need some ancient relic to govern them. That they could decide things for themselves, and as long as they stood together, nothing could defeat them. I am no longer with that group, and so with my new group the Last Mythal events have occured. Feel free to steal whatever you like though. :D |
| Alediran10-09-07, 04:32 PM | The core argument of LMT, the elves mending one of their greatest mistakes is a good one. One of the positive aspects of the trilogy was to finally see many sun elves as what they truly are, not that WotC invention of Sun Elf = evil. Seiveril was one of my favorite characters, he aroused the sleeping spirit of thousands of elves of Evermeet who wanted to repair the damage their ancestors made. The execution wasn't as good as the concept. But It still gives me plenty of material to make a Heroes of Battle campaign using the Elven Crusade. Each one of my players will be a ranking officer in Seiveril's Crusade that will have to push their company to victory (even if that battle was a victory for Sarya's minions, those battles will mean victory = survival of the company). |
| Stigger10-09-07, 05:39 PM | Nah, that whole Retreat thing was pretty much ceding any rights to their old realms on the mainland. :P ;) |
| Storm_Silverhand10-09-07, 06:19 PM | Heya, How did we go from talking about the fates of the Seven Sisters to Elf Bashing over Myth Drannor? IMHO, Myth Drannor is not Myth Drannor without Elves. |
| Bonzai10-09-07, 06:36 PM | Lol, thats funny, from my perspective, Myth Drannor isn't Myth Drannor without all sorts of Demons and other flavors of Nasty swarming you... But in the case of my Campaign, yes there were elves, but they weren't the majority. The largest population was human, followed by Dwarves, then Elves, then Half Elves, Haflings, Half Orcs, and there was a tolken gnome. They developed a council, with the Colonal as the head. |
| Rauric10-09-07, 06:58 PM | I bought the old Myth Drannor Box set and was never really happy with it. I thought it should have been designed much better than that so seeing it retaken is fine with me. |
| johnkretzer10-10-07, 02:44 AM | I bought the old Myth Drannor Box set and was never really happy with it. I thought it should have been designed much better than that so seeing it retaken is fine with me. I have never been happy with any module ever( ok except for few Basic D&D ones and the City of Lies for L5R). So I had design it myself...it was interesting. And eventualy the PCs would have taken it back...though I didn't put much thought on how it would have worked after that though. |
| Storm_Silverhand10-10-07, 04:48 AM | Heya, Lol, thats funny, from my perspective, Myth Drannor isn't Myth Drannor without all sorts of Demons and other flavors of Nasty swarming you... I was not talking about the Ruins of Myth Drannor. ;) But in the case of my Campaign, yes there were elves, but they weren't the majority. The largest population was human, followed by Dwarves, then Elves, then Half Elves, Haflings, Half Orcs, and there was a tolken gnome. They developed a council, with the Colonal as the head. Well, it's your game. :) (It's coronal, by the way, with an r. Think coronet, as in a little crown.) |
| Fire_Wraith10-10-07, 10:52 AM | Personally, I was just happy enough to see the story told. It had felt like the forces of good had taken a few setbacks in a row, so it was nice to see them resurgent for a change, particularly the elves, and especially against the arrogant fey'ri/daemonfey. Having the elves (or some of them) get involved in the main world again was a good thing, in my opinion. But yes, we are a bit off topic. To try and draw a parallel to my previous post from this, I'll use Seiverel's death as an example. He dies at the end of the series, within sight of the end of his great quest, yet his sacrifice makes the victory for everyone else possible, and enables the defeat of his enemies. It parallels in a way with Araevin's sacrifice of his (pure) elven-ness, given up so that he would be able to use the High Magic necessary to defeat Sarya and her minions. These sorts of things do have some meaning, and it doesn't feel like (to me at least) it was done for the purpose of anything other than telling a good story, or because it made sense in the context of that story. I will be very sad if any of the Seven Sisters are killed off. However, if it happens for the right reasons, in the right context, I'll understand, and I'll appreciate it. A good death, and a good ending to a character's story, is a special thing, even if it's sad at the same time. But it has to be right, feel right - because it was right for the story, right for the character, and given the right dramatic treatment in the story. I really don't want to see what happened to Sylune (or Halaster) happen to one of the Six others. Characters like that deserve better, even in - especially in - death. |
| Ramenth10-10-07, 11:46 AM | Given that DR 1425 is the year of the Seven Sisters, I assume the suriving ones go down in some sort of grand-stand while ending the Spellplague or something equally overly dramatic. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-10-07, 01:23 PM | The core argument of LMT, the elves mending one of their greatest mistakes is a good one. One of the positive aspects of the trilogy was to finally see many sun elves as what they truly are, not that WotC invention of Sun Elf = evil. See, I always knew sun elves weren't evil and didn't deserve the bad rap they've gotten in the past.:) Seiveril was one of my favorite characters, he aroused the sleeping spirit of thousands of elves of Evermeet who wanted to repair the damage their ancestors made. I actually found him to be pretty incompetent as a leader. Don't get me started on his death scene... Not saying you have to agree with me, though.:) Bonzai: I like that concept you would have used, about a magical sword not mattering that much in the end. I love the artifacts from Cormanthyr such as the blades, but in real life I believe choosing leaders based on inanimate objects would be silly. I liked Moonblades a lot less after having read the Evermeet novel. |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 01:35 PM | There is an Elven Colonel - he opened up a fried-chicken franchise somewhere down in Halrua. :P Given that DR 1425 is the year of the Seven Sisters, I assume the suriving ones go down in some sort of grand-stand while ending the Spellplague or something equally overly dramatic.You know, I don't think anyone else has noticed that yet. I wonder if the designers realize it? They've already killed one (again), so in 1425 there can be no more then six. It would make a good year for the setting to reset to (not that I would like that), because we could have a really excellent story about how the sisters sacrifice themselves and their remaining power to re-stabilize magic for good. And El would weep and become a sad hermit forever more ... Thats the kind of epic deaths we wouldn't mind in 4e - not make a saving throw and see if they survive. :yuck: |
| Bonzai10-10-07, 01:41 PM | Bonzai: I like that concept you would have used, about a magical sword not mattering that much in the end. I love the artifacts from Cormanthyr such as the blades, but in real life I believe choosing leaders based on inanimate objects would be silly. I liked Moonblades a lot less after having read the Evermeet novel. Lol, the way you phrased it reminds me of that scene in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail. Denis: "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony....Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away". |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-10-07, 01:42 PM | Lol, the way you phrased it reminds me of that scene in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail. *chuckles* As silly as that scene was, I think there was truth to it, yes.:) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-10-07, 01:44 PM | You know, I don't think anyone else has noticed that yet. I wonder if the designers realize it? They've already killed one (again), so in 1425 there can be no more then six. I recall seeing that year, though I haven't thought about it lately.:) Yes, I do have to wonder how they would handle that year (if they chose to) given that "Seven Sisters" is no longer accurate. |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 02:31 PM | They'll probably say something happened to the seven daughters of some merchant in Selgaunt.... :rolleyes: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-10-07, 06:17 PM | They'll probably say something happened to the seven daughters of some merchant in Selgaunt.... :rolleyes: True! That year might not be about the Seven Sisters. |
| Stigger10-11-07, 02:06 AM | I'm more of the thought that they just prove Alaundo wrong for once and discard the name/year thing entirely... wouldn't surprise me much with everything else going on. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-11-07, 10:27 AM | I'm more of the thought that they just prove Alaundo wrong for once and discard the name/year thing entirely... wouldn't surprise me much with everything else going on. Possibly, but WotC has caught on the trend of taking the names literally and using them as plot hooks for RSE, so I have the feeling they won't ditch the year names. Plus they have the all new, more accurate SHADOW ROLL OF YEARS for even more RSE plot hooks!:rolleyes: |
| MarkusTay6310-11-07, 03:11 PM | You know, that just gave me a scarey thought - If we take some of the hints lately about an alternate reality returning, or at least a different timeline merging with the main, and combine that with this new role of years - :eek: The new roll may OVERULE the old one - after all, Shar is responsible for both the Spellplague AND the new roll of years, so those new names could be the timeline she has now diverted the 4e Realms into. I remember discussing 'prophesy' and how it may effect the Realms with a designer some months back, and he seemed to think we may see something along those lines soon. That was awhile ago, but I could see Shar's clergy researching Alaundo's prophesies and finding a way of making a certain timeline take the forefront. Once again, it would explain much, like why they decided to hand us this new roll of years now. Ergo, the timeline with the 'seven sisters' year no longer exists. The scarey part about THAT is that it means this time they have PLANNED out the future of FR through their new roll of years, rather then just assigning random names to them as they did the first time around. |
| Alediran10-11-07, 03:12 PM | Ugh, that is SO LAME! Is NOTHING SACRED ANYMORE? Where can I read the Shadow(crap) Roll of the Years so I can poke my eyes with burning metal sticks? |
| MarkusTay6310-11-07, 03:22 PM | So far, they've only gone up to 1385 (The year of Revelation). What little there is is on pg. 157 of the GHotR. Just double checked - the year of the Time of Troubles (1358, Year of Shadows), is called The Year of Ascension by Shar! Since we have been told that the Spellplague has it's roots in the ToT, perhaps Shar did something THEN that changed everything? :cool: |
| Selvarin10-11-07, 03:51 PM | So far, they've only gone up to 1385 (The year of Revelation). What little there is is on pg. 157 of the GHotR. Just double checked - the year of the Time of Troubles (1358, Year of Shadows), is called The Year of Ascension by Shar! Since we have been told that the Spellplague has it's roots in the ToT, perhaps Shar did something THEN that changed everything? :cool: I kind of believe it's Shar's attempt to imprint her own view of the future, not that it will necessarily work out after helping to get Mystra killed. Alediran it's in the Grand History of the Realms on page 157. |
| Stigger10-11-07, 04:49 PM | *bangs head into computer screen* I'm beginning to suspect that someone's been taking cues from White Wolf on how to completely and utterly undermine a setting and send it crashing into the ground... |
| Alediran10-11-07, 04:56 PM | The WoD setting wasn't even the worst part, it was the bad DMs who forced players to play every single vampire as it's clan/tradition/auspice/methodology concept demanded (Brujah always hotheads, Tremere always unstrustful occult sorcerers, Tzimisces always monsters, Virtual Adepts computer nerds, werewolves unthinking beasts...) |
| Stigger10-11-07, 05:06 PM | Wow, never ran into that problem... then again, I almost always DM. Which tells me that either I'm quite good at it since none of my players ever step up to it, or that I'm a massive control freak who just happens to have convinced others that its a good thing. Feh, either way, probably some combination of the two. :D |
| MarkusTay6310-11-07, 08:32 PM | No matter how many times someone has a bad idea, someone else comes along and thinks they can do it right. :rolleyes: |
| Alediran10-12-07, 09:02 AM | For me was the opposite thing, every WoD DM I knew was a "I love to kill my player's characters" type of DM who couldn't understand how a Virtual Adept was interested in researching history and making simulation programming based on that information. He said, your character is a historian or a programmer, bot can't be both (I was internally saying to him "WTF? I love history, I'm a good programmer and much more things that this character will be, he is even older than me!) That day I quited playing WoD. |
| Bonzai10-12-07, 04:20 PM | Lol, WoD depended a lot on the Story teller, that is true. Of course, I gave as good as I got. Like my Elvis Impersonater Celestial Chorus member, who had the manafest avatar trait (Elvis), and believed tha Elvis was the second coming.... How is that for stereo typical? |
| Stigger10-16-07, 03:18 AM | Nice... I'd have had the Crats nuke you just on principle for it ;) , but I have to give you credit for creativity on that one... Rise of the Church of Elvis and all that. :D Weird bunch them, by the way, knew one of their ministers years ago who kinda freaked me out... |
| Selvarin10-16-07, 03:47 AM | There's a Church of Tom Jones in nearby Sacramento, believe it or not. Look for an episode of 'Web Drifter' on the Revision 3 site, some guy interviews the minister there. Funny stuff. |