Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 11:13 PM	We might as well have a thread about this, given the amount of times that this subject comes up. I thought since it's actually getting some canon attention that we'd actually bother to discuss the issue being "put to rest" and our retrospective on it. Frankly, there is some merit to the idea that the Chosen of Mystra might be overpowered. I rather liked the original Elminster who was, what, 14th to 17th level in the original markup of the Realms? I always felt there was a rather ludicrous power creep occurring to them. I knew that Elminster didn't need to be as powerful as he was when I ran magic going wild during a 2nd edition game and El was transformed into a 0-Level Sage with a Ring of Teleportation and nothing had changed about the character. Of course, in my games, the Chosen of Mystra never went adventuring like people seemed to imply they did. They were much more like the Circle of Eight. Alustriel, Khelben, Larael, and the Simbul have CITIES to protect. Quil has an entire religion to run out of the Promenade. King Garath and King Azoun were busy running their countries! Simply put, I did feel a lot of characters were just ridiculously high level for the Hell of it. It makes sense if Elminster is the Forgotten Realms Yoda to have 20 or so levels and it's alright for him to be "the best magician in the entire Realms." But what exactly is the reason that Azoun is the absolute best swordsman? I always felt it was a trifle strange that we're supposed to believe Artemis and Drizzt couldn't take the middle aged King of Cormyr in a fight together. I also still stare at King Garath's levels at times and wonder how exactly he didn't clean the entire Forgotten Realms out with the ridiculous grandioseness of his party. I'm not saying anyone who defeated Zhengyi the Witch King shouldn't be ridiculously high level but it loses a sense of Grandeur if you don't say "he's the most famous guy in the Realms for this amount of skill." Know what I'm saying?
selunatic2397 10-23-07, 11:56 PM	Yup! I have always ignored the Chosen and all the rest of the iconic novel characters...for one simple reason... I have never viewed the novels as canon. Storm got mentioned only due to a bard pc asking about her..."Yeah she's around Shadowdale...somewhere..." But I do agree with you about the novel viewpoint imposing itself over game material...some of those descriptions were right out of Marvel/DC! The PC's should be the center attraction in the story both the DM and the Players are writing. Give Azoun a round shield and you have Captain Cormyr...Elminster is a shoe in for Doctor Strange...and Storm pretty much dresses like Wonder Woman anyway! King Garath's whole party should have been able to wipe out every entry in the books on evil baddies.
Bonzai 10-24-07, 12:09 AM	It's only a problem if you as the DM allow it to be. As the DM, you have the responsibility for your campaign. If you include them, and then feel that they are over powering, then you have only yourself to blame. Posts like this are why they are starting to kill off the iconic characters, when the problem is that the dm's are their own worst enemy. If you don't like them, don't use them. They are (or I should say were) a part of the realms flavor.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 12:21 AM	Yes, or we could improve the Realms by lowering their levels. Because, my point is that it's a problem for almost all DMs and that you might as well say you could raise the levels of them. I'm a Greenwood purist overall.
Telagaunt 10-24-07, 12:51 AM	hey, you stole the line I said from another thread :P Except I said they weren't. Anyway, as I said in the other post, as Bonzai said here, it's entirely up to the DM to allow it, and the PC's. If a DM doesn't even want to bring them up, a a PC says, "Why not get Alustriel to help us?" Well clearly the answer is, "F**k no. She's busy." I mean honestly, how hard is it to not get these NPC's involved into your story. It's actually part of the challenge your PC's are going against. Yes making a name for themselves, becoming heroes, etc..? They can still do that lol The Chosen, Drizzt, whoever, they're not running around saving cats out of trees, and defeating every level 20 orc they find. Or every lich. Or every demon. Etc.. Have faith in your characters, have faith in your DM and ideas. If anything if PC's are dealing with something marginally 'epic', maybe the point is that you're on the same level of heroism as these NPC's now. "Wow, the Chosens are elsewhere, it's up to us to do this." That's the point of the D&D. You become the heroes. And there is always room for heroes (or villains). Lol and if villain, maybe you'll get high enough level you actually kill these people yourself in your campaign, is that so hard? lol I really liked how The Rage trilogy dealt with this. They even stated several times where are these so called heroes. Answer: Elsewhere. It's that simple.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 12:43 PM	I also still stare at King Garath's levels at times and wonder how exactly he didn't clean the entire Forgotten Realms out with the ridiculous grandioseness of his party. I'm not saying anyone who defeated Zhengyi the Witch King shouldn't be ridiculously high level but it loses a sense of Grandeur if you don't say "he's the most famous guy in the Realms for this amount of skill." Know what I'm saying? I have to admit, not really. I'm sure there's a point in there but I can't find it. There is no definitely answer to the question of "who's the best/most famous X in the Realms". I agree with Faraer when he says there are no Realmswide celebrities. I do agree, however, that these characters are not a problem! I've been saying such for a long time now. Forcibly removing them from the setting (as is happening regarding some characters in the official setting) is acknowedging a problem that doesn't really exist.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 04:00 PM	I have to admit, not really. I'm sure there's a point in there but I can't find it. There is no definitely answer to the question of "who's the best/most famous X in the Realms". I agree with Faraer when he says there are no Realmswide celebrities. I do agree, however, that these characters are not a problem! I've been saying such for a long time now. Forcibly removing them from the setting (as is happening regarding some characters in the official setting) is acknowedging a problem that doesn't really exist. Wow, you missed the point that they're underdeveloped blocks of stats? That takes effort. For me, I think a stronger focus on character in the Realms would be necessary. I'm sorry if people are so obsessed with stats and high levels they don't think that low level characters and mid to high level ones can contribute anything to the Realms. For me, I want to see more "iconic" Realms characters and the focus on them as a living part of the world. It's not enough that King Gareth is part of Damara, I want to see things like how he impacts other settings and the Realms as a whole. I didn't get that until the Sellswords and I thank R.A. Salvatore mightilly for providing us with that. If your character has power, he should be intergrated into the setting and its changing as well as evolving nature. If the Stat-Monkeys can't accept that you shouldn't put Nighty 20th level Wizards in a 10x10 room in a dungeon without explaining why then I don't think you really appreciate the depth and importance of the Realms. It should be about the setting rather than the Power and I really can't respect those who like to see the Realms be more about the storytelling than Kewl Powers. I can't even consider people who want the Realms to be drenched in MMORPG levels of 70th level Barbarians to be really fans of it. I think they're fans of hack'n'slash and crunch that have lost sight of the Realm's Realism that has always been one of the most important factors of the fantasy world. Ed Greenwood's consistency and balancing of the various powers is not something that can be causally disrupted. I'm not referring to anyone in this thread but it's a serious problem amongst the Realms fandom and a major reason why that the Realms have become such a mess that they need to burn away serious chunks of the fat that makes no sense.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 06:04 PM	Wow, you missed the point that they're underdeveloped blocks of stats? That takes effort. Yeah, you're right--your post was crystal clear about that. Totally.:rolleye2: And as I've said to you before, who is "iconic" and who isn't has more to do with marketing than anything else.
Bonzai 10-24-07, 06:35 PM	Ok, you want realism. Your office has a computer network. Something goes haywire, and the network comes crashing down. What are you going to do? Using your analogy, there is nothing for you to do, as Bill Gates will come running along, and will personally fix your problem. There is no need for you to fix it yourself, or even call the company IT guy, because Bill Gates can solve any problem you may have. It doesn't quite work like that does it? How often have you met Bill Gates? How many times have you demanded that he do something, and he complied? Does his existance deprive your own of meaning? So why should it be any different in the realms?
Puritan13 10-24-07, 06:38 PM	Ok, you want realism. Your office has a computer network. Something goes haywire, and the network comes crashing down. What are you going to do? Using your analogy, there is nothing for you to do, as Bill Gates will come running along, and will personally fix your problem. There is no need for you to fix it yourself, or even call the company IT guy, because Bill Gates can solve any problem you may have. It doesn't quite work like that does it? How often have you met Bill Gates? How many times have you demanded that he do something, and he complied? Does his existance deprive your own of meaning? So why should it be any different in the realms?Bill Gates. I had to ***** slap that guy last time he came around. Then I took both dollars in his wallet.
The_King_in_Yellow 10-24-07, 07:07 PM	I'd say Bill Gates is about seventh level...:D . I'd agree with Charles Phipps.
ExtinctionBeta 10-24-07, 07:23 PM	I'd say ExtinctionBeta is about seventh level...:D . I'd agree with Charles Phipps. Why thank you.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 07:56 PM	So why should it be any different in the realms? Well, that's a perfectly valid example, except for the fact that the problem with my computer is that my Windows is threatening to set off a chain reaction nuclear countdown that will result in the total destruction of Life As We Know It!TM. What are the Chosen Doing? Is an easy enough problem to deal with when you're running games where the player characters are repulsing Kobold attacks but I've always felt it's very important to treat heroes as doing things much like the Novels only Better. The Crystal Shard is about par average for my games. A vast horde of Terrible SomethingsTM is about to pour out and destroy the countryside. I think that player characters should have some knowledge about how big their accomplishments are. Part of the problem, I believe is that they assume that 20th Level Azoun has to have done everything that 20th level Bob the Paladin has done to get to that level. WHERE WERE THESE AWESOME ADVENTURES?
Zsych 10-26-07, 07:32 PM	Hmm... looking at the title, I realize that if the Chosen declared themselves the Justice League of Faerun, my opinion of them might actually improve :P As for Azoun, actually Vandergahast used a spell to transfer fighting knowledge from a bunch fighters into Azoun. He also cast a permanent version of Tenser's Transformation on Azoun, easily substituting years of training and experience... :P
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 09:37 PM	Wow, that's such a Twinky PLAYER thing to do.
MerrikCale 10-26-07, 09:46 PM	I would love to see the chosen have a base on Selune
Derren S. 10-28-07, 06:56 AM	Ok, you want realism. Your office has a computer network. Something goes haywire, and the network comes crashing down. What are you going to do? Using your analogy, there is nothing for you to do, as Bill Gates will come running along, and will personally fix your problem. There is no need for you to fix it yourself, or even call the company IT guy, because Bill Gates can solve any problem you may have. It doesn't quite work like that does it? How often have you met Bill Gates? How many times have you demanded that he do something, and he complied? Does his existance deprive your own of meaning? So why should it be any different in the realms? No, if his office is an analogy to the realms there is indeed nothing to do as the local admin/helpdesk/network expert will come and fix the network. Only when you crash the whole internet Bill Gates will come personally. You forge tthat despite the chosen (which will fix every epic threat the PCs mess up to stopp) there are a myriad of slightly lower level NPCs in the realms. No matter what the threat is, there are always NPCs in teh realms who are interesting in seeing this threat stopped and better suited to do it than the PCs. If you use all the published NPCs in your game then teh PCs are not needed.
GoldDragon 10-28-07, 07:26 AM	Yes, or we could improve the Realms by lowering their levels. Because, my point is that it's a problem for almost all DMs and that you might as well say you could raise the levels of them. I'm a Greenwood purist overall. What does Novels set in the Forgotten Realms have to do with a D&D Campaign set in the Forgotten Realms? First line of defense is usually the Local Law enforcement, if that fails then Local Heros, if that fails then Hired Heroes, if that fails the more powerful hired heroes. etc,etc. Iconic people like Eliminster are only bothered if all else fails. Even in Shadowdale, in which it would be silly to cause trouble, there are a whole bunch of passing by and local and retired Adventurers that could handle most minor troubles in town without having to Summon Eliminster from his tower to deal with it.(Not that he is necessarily home anyway) Likewise, a D&D Campaign makes the PCs responsible for solving the problem whether by first shot or or the fact that the other group(s) "was never seen again" and your PCs are the next/last hope
Derren S. 10-28-07, 11:21 AM	Likewise, a D&D Campaign makes the PCs responsible for solving the problem whether by first shot or or the fact that the other group(s) "was never seen again" and your PCs are the next/last hope As you can see in your analysis, there isn't really much for the PCs to do when you use all NPCs. In many parts of the realm the local heroes are enough to defend against minor threats. And major threats ping on the "Chosen Justice League" or equivalent radar and will be taken care of by them. So the only adventures left for the PCs are those threats slightly too high for the local ones (depending on teh location that already has to be very high) but low enough to be not worth the time for the local super NPC(s). That isn't really much. And I imagine that some players will become bored when they are constantly only the second choice send in when the first choice failed.
GothicDan 10-28-07, 12:08 PM	I'll absolutely never understand the modern perceptions of 'roleplaying.'
johnkretzer 10-28-07, 12:27 PM	I'll absolutely never understand the modern perceptions of 'roleplaying.' I am starting to agree...though PM you concept of RPing first to see if I agree.
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 01:13 PM	Listen, I have a mix of various game types in my campaign. I'll list the last three games we played. All are divergents on existing modules. Doom Came to Daggerdale: The PCs investigate the disappearance of all the cats in Daggerdale after they run out of pocket money. They discover Conrad Morn (Wight W9) has been sacrificing them on his makeshift altar to Cyric and Velsharoon while assembling a small undead army to attack the city. This is just a divergence so he can assassinate Randal and with illusions, take over heroically by defeating his makeshift 'army' The Sacking of Tilverton: The Shades have been blasting the city and the PCs have taken a portal there right in the middle of the battle. They must cut their way through enslaved Shade minions and try and lead as many townsfolk out of the slaughter/fire as possible before the town is destroyed. (They ended up rescuing 75) The Four from Cormyr: Gondegal's Clone is leading his rebellion with the aid of Ashemmi and Semmenon in the wake of the shade attack. Alusair is heading into my version of the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar to try and recover many powerful relics an ancient but cursed adventuring party. If the adventure goes well, she'll lead the entrapped spirits to smash the 1,000 Calvary of Lord Adris the Zhentarim Commander. Subplots in the Campaign are one PC being tried out to become a Chosen of Mask and another being a Bhaalspawn. I think the above are a nice mixture of heroic and Faerun-shaking consequences. but it won't be until later the PCs successfully save all of Faerun.
Derren S. 10-29-07, 06:19 AM	I'll absolutely never understand the modern perceptions of 'roleplaying.' Come off your high horse. Its not about the players want to me the most important person in the realms like you complained so often in similar discussions but that unless you ignore many published NPCs in the realms the PCs wouldn't have something to do at all. There are so many powerful, adventerous NPCs which are interested in protecting a certain area that there have to be more plots going on at the same time than in the Marvel and DC universe combined to give the PCs a chance to adventure without interference. Of course you can always say that the NPCs are busy elsewhere or ignore them otherwise but for people who are interested in "the big picture" this is a very unsatisfying solution.
GothicDan 10-29-07, 07:24 AM	Of course you can always say that the NPCs are busy elsewhere or ignore them otherwise but for people who are interested in "the big picture" this is a very unsatisfying solution. Now who's on his high horse? I admitted that my ideas of roleplaying were different than yours and others. Yet you accuse me of not being interested in the "big picture," when I'm a physics, history, linguistics, and religion maniac, and when in my own campaign worlds, I literally go back MILLIONS of years... You're accusing people of being actually ignorant. I'm merely saying I don't understand why other people like, what they like.
Derren S. 10-29-07, 08:29 AM	Yet you accuse me of not being interested in the "big picture," when I'm a physics, history, linguistics, and religion maniac, and when in my own campaign worlds, I literally go back MILLIONS of years... Which has nothing to do with D&D. When you play an FR adventure just to have fun and to have an adventure then the high level NPCs are probably not a problem (ignore). But if you constantly ask yourself while being on that adventure why the NPCs don't intervern (High level NPC x is active in the area and an enemy of our BBEG. Also when we fail everything goes to hell. So what the hell is this guy doing which is more important than our quest? He should help us/do it himself), and yes, such people exist, then you do have a problem with those NPCs. Constantly saying that "There is a bigger threat they have to deal it" doesn't work for such people asthat is equally unlogical than simply ignoring them. (big picture) I'm not saying that the "ignore" method is wrong, but it is not working for everyone. And that is certainly not a "modern perception" and certainly is not a lesser form of roleplaying (or why did you put in apostrophes?)
Alediran 10-29-07, 09:08 AM	Which has nothing to do with D&D. When you play an FR adventure just to have fun and to have an adventure then the high level NPCs are probably not a problem (ignore). But if you constantly ask yourself while being on that adventure why the NPCs don't intervern (High level NPC x is active in the area and an enemy of our BBEG. Also when we fail everything goes to hell. So what the hell is this guy doing which is more important than our quest? He should help us/do it himself), and yes, such people exist, then you do have a problem with those NPCs. Constantly saying that "There is a bigger threat they have to deal it" doesn't work for such people asthat is equally unlogical than simply ignoring them. (big picture) I'm not saying that the "ignore" method is wrong, but it is not working for everyone. And that is certainly not a "modern perception" and certainly is not a lesser form of roleplaying (or why did you put in apostrophes?) A player who constantly asks that kind of questions is destroying the suspension of disbelief and ruining the fun for the other players. What if the DM HAS a plan for all those NPCs, and the player who asks many questions breaks the wonder of discovering what happened to them because of those questions?
GothicDan 10-29-07, 09:17 AM	Which has nothing to do with D&D. It all does - if you see the "big" picture. All of the above passions I have extend to D&D worlds too, meaning that I look for the same in D&D worlds. When you play an FR adventure just to have fun and to have an adventure then the high level NPCs are probably not a problem (ignore). Good point. I don't actually play FR adventures, of course, so your statement is nonapplicable to me, at least. (or why did you put in apostrophes?) Because in MY eyes, it's not roleplaying at all. There's no lesser/greater to it. But my way isn't RIGHT - that would imply there's one "correct" way. I don't even believe in morality, why would I believe in an absolute right/wrong for roleplaying?
Derren S. 10-29-07, 09:47 AM	Because in MY eyes, it's not roleplaying at all. There's no lesser/greater to it. But my way isn't RIGHT - that would imply there's one "correct" way. I don't even believe in morality, why would I believe in an absolute right/wrong for roleplaying? Wait, am I reading that correctly? You say that your way to roleplay isn't the only correct one but in the same paragraph you are saying that how the others play isn't roleplay at all? Thats still saying that your way to play > their way to play. I roleplay, they don't...
Alediran 10-29-07, 10:08 AM	Wait, am I reading that correctly? You say that your way to roleplay isn't the only correct one but in the same paragraph you are saying that how the others play isn't roleplay at all? Thats still saying that your way to play > their way to play. I roleplay, they don't... No, GD meant that nobody is right or wrong with their gamestyle. He was applying Quantum physics to his answer.
Charles Phipps 10-29-07, 02:48 PM	It all does - if you see the "big" picture. All of the above passions I have extend to D&D worlds too, meaning that I look for the same in D&D worlds. In other words, you let your other interests prejudice your take on the group. Everyone does that, however, that doesn't mean that it makes you better able to appreciate it. Spelljammer I cannot get into because of my love of physics but that doesn't mean it's not a good campaign setting.
Stigger 10-29-07, 03:46 PM	Amazing how much misunderstanding and misinterpretation can creep into some discussions... Word of advice to all, try to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt before drawing inflammatory conclusions. As to how to handle high-level NPC's... levels don't matter, never have, never will, unless the DM lets them. They're plot devices more often than not, things to aspire to, have make cameo appearances, and namedrop on occassion. Deal, move on, if you don't like them, ignore their existance, make up new ones, or whatever... as they say, don't be a hater, be a participator. ;) :D
johnkretzer 10-29-07, 04:05 PM	Frankly, there is some merit to the idea that the Chosen of Mystra might be overpowered. I rather liked the original Elminster who was, what, 14th to 17th level in the original markup of the Realms? Actualy in the Halls of Heroes supplement which is 1st edition first write up of Elminster among others Elminster: 26th level Magic-User(what 1st edition called wizards, my god how much I rejoiced when they changed the name.) Alustriel: 22nd level Magic-User Khelban:26th level Magic-User Storm Silverhand: 5th level Theif, 7th level fighter, 7th level bard(back in the day when Bard was a PrC, also this is high for a dual-class character) The Simbul:27th level Magic-User Dove:11th level Ranger Sylune:22nd level Magic-User (Both Laeral and Qilue I don't think were stated out in 1st edition...though they might have been) In Second Edition using The Seven Sister soucebook and Heroes' Lorebook Elminster:29th level Mage(2nd edition name for wizards) Khelban:27th level Mage Alustriel:24th level Mage Dove:14th level Ranger Laeral:25th level Mage The Simbul:30th level Mage Storm:22nd level Bard Sylune:Spectral Harpist Qilue:16th level Cleric. While there is some levels gained I think that can mostly be chalked up to the fact time pasted. And because it is a growing living setting NPCs gain levels too. Hey if you want to lower them that is fine by me...I just thought I'll point out they were in other editions. Though I find it funny that the previous design team could deal with these high level characters before(and by the way they are really high level considering the level how fast one leveled in 1st and 2nd), but now they can't...
johnkretzer 10-29-07, 04:13 PM	Which has nothing to do with D&D. When you play an FR adventure just to have fun and to have an adventure then the high level NPCs are probably not a problem (ignore). But if you constantly ask yourself while being on that adventure why the NPCs don't intervern (High level NPC x is active in the area and an enemy of our BBEG. Also when we fail everything goes to hell. So what the hell is this guy doing which is more important than our quest? He should help us/do it himself), and yes, such people exist, then you do have a problem with those NPCs. Constantly saying that "There is a bigger threat they have to deal it" doesn't work for such people asthat is equally unlogical than simply ignoring them. (big picture) I'm not saying that the "ignore" method is wrong, but it is not working for everyone. And that is certainly not a "modern perception" and certainly is not a lesser form of roleplaying (or why did you put in apostrophes?) If a PCs is asking me where so and so...I look at him or her gravely..."Can you please tell me how your character will know this infomation?" The fqact is player don't need to know everything that is going on especialy if their PCs doesn't have a way to know this info. It is a lesser form RP(and there is really nothing new about it though) it is called metagaming. Sure one day the PCs will learn what those NPCs are doing but they definitly don't need to know right then. If they did the NPC would tell them what is up.
Charles Phipps 10-29-07, 05:46 PM	I think Elminster appeared in Dragon Magazine twice before Halls of Heroes.
johnkretzer 10-29-07, 06:56 PM	I think Elminster appeared in Dragon Magazine twice before Halls of Heroes. I don't remember that though you might be right as they were large holes in Dragon collection. But I don't think he was ever stated as low as 20th...(actualy when I looked that up today I was surprised to see that he was that high of a level...then again bqack in that day they didn't have pages of stat blocks, they just had a couple of stats.) Maybe it is just the length of stat block that makes people think they are just shooting up in power...
Derren S. 10-30-07, 04:41 AM	If a PCs is asking me where so and so...I look at him or her gravely..."Can you please tell me how your character will know this infomation?" And what is when the players look for that information in game? And even if you dismiss their question with "your characters don't know that", the player wil always think during this adventure that it is unlogical because the high level NPCs would support them in their quest. And please, what will you tell the player later what the NPC was doing? "There were something bigger going on"? The realms is no marvel universe where it is normal that at any timer there are dozends of world/country/multiverse destroying plots going on. As to how to handle high-level NPC's... levels don't matter, never have, never will, unless the DM lets them. They're plot devices more often than not, things to aspire to, have make cameo appearances, and namedrop on occassion. And thats what I mean with ignoring because that is not how those high level NPCs would behave (according to their profession, alignment and according to novels they appear in).
Stigger 10-30-07, 08:18 AM	How about a simple, well, he was gonna get involved, but saw your lot was dealing with it and so decided to take a bath instead, too many cooks in the kitchen and all that... or maybe they just didn't notice since they were in the library researching a new spell. Or just didn't notice because they don't exactly have magic spy satellites watching for Evil Afoot on every inch of Faerun's surface, much less CNN to keep an eye on things. ;)
Bonzai 10-30-07, 12:37 PM	And what is when the players look for that information in game? And even if you dismiss their question with "your characters don't know that", the player wil always think during this adventure that it is unlogical because the high level NPCs would support them in their quest. And please, what will you tell the player later what the NPC was doing? "There were something bigger going on"? The realms is no marvel universe where it is normal that at any timer there are dozends of world/country/multiverse destroying plots going on.). Actually... latley it has been that way. Dragon Rages, Civil wars in Thay, Shades making a move on Sembia, Myth Dranor returning, the Drow Patheon imploding, etc.. etc... It would be nothing to throw in a Maugrym invasion or two to keep the Chosen busy. Also keep in mind, that the Chosen of Mystra have very specific mandates. They are there to protect the weave, and to help spread the use of magic in the realms. Anything else that they accomplish is more or less a hobby, something to do on their spare time. It could very well be that Mystra asked them not to interfere. Take the Shade situation in Sembia for example. Why weren't the Chosen stopping them? Probably because for good or ill, the spread of shade influence will increase the proliferation of magic. So when the players ask about these NPC's, first ask them to make the appropriate knowledge checks to even know of these peoples existance. Player knowledge is not character knowledge. If they know enough historical, local, or religious knowledge for them to know enough about the chosen, then they may also learn that the Chosen are basicly their dieties errand boys, and have quite a bit less freedom to act than some may think. If they still persist, then I'd let them attempt to try and find the Chosen to warn him of the danger, and ask for his help. As the DM though, I would make this more difficult and longer than solving the problem themselves. In fact, I would make it that by the time they confronted the chosen, they would learn that another group of adventurers already came by and solved the problem, and now they have a slightly annoyed Chosen wondering why they are waisting his valuable time.
Derren S. 10-30-07, 12:44 PM	Like many others you are reducing this issue to the chosens. What if the PCs don't want to know why the chosens are not interfeering but the local lvl 20 archmages, the high level guard captains, the monk order on the nearby mountain with its hundereds of lvl 14+ monks, the large mercenary company, etc. If it were just the chosens then there wouldn't bu much of a problem because of the things you wrote. But there are so much other high level NPCs in the realms too.
Alediran 10-30-07, 12:59 PM	Like many others you are reducing this issue to the chosens. What if the PCs don't want to know why the chosens are not interfeering but the local lvl 20 archmages, the high level guard captains, the monk order on the nearby mountain with its hundereds of lvl 14+ monks, the large mercenary company, etc. If it were just the chosens then there wouldn't bu much of a problem because of the things you wrote. But there are so much other high level NPCs in the realms too. You apply the same things with little twists. For example the lvl 20 Archmage is TN and uninterested in what is happening. The mercenary band asks for more money that they can get if they did it by themselves, the guard captains have a DUTY that they can't avoid, the monks don't involve too much in the material existences of other people, it must affect them directly to do something.
Derren S. 10-30-07, 01:16 PM	You are forgetting that most evil plots involve dominating/destroying a stretch of land which is most of the time inhabited. And when the Archmage etc. do live on this land then the will do something TN or not.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-30-07, 01:19 PM	Why did the PCs become adventurers in the first place if they are always wondering why someone else isn't doing their work for them?
Charles Phipps 10-30-07, 02:16 PM	The last Chosen plot I used was Khelben in our Moonstar's plot climax. After refusing membership in it, the PCs were sent by the Harpers to recover the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings from where it was broken as they were constantly pursued by Lord Orgauth along with Demons from Hellgate Keep he'd made pact with. The ending being that they were actually on a False Trail set up by Khelben with their SotSK being a fake/bomb that he made that blew Hellgate Keep to pieces. This is how Hellgate Keep was destroyed and Orgauth slain in our campaigns. It REALLY got them angered as being Khelben's patsies but I think worked well to demonstrate his intellect.
johnkretzer 10-30-07, 03:53 PM	And what is when the players look for that information in game? And even if you dismiss their question with "your characters don't know that", the player wil always think during this adventure that it is unlogical because the high level NPCs would support them in their quest. If they look for it in game then they might get a answear... do remember powerful NPCs have powerful enemies by nature they don't advertise their movements. And they have to hide their tracks much better. I actualy have no problem with them asking though I'll ask why they are looking. Also it depends on the quest. Do PCs when they reach high levels care about everything that happens especialy if somebody is dealing with it? Why should NPCs have to? I mean I am sure they do but every single one people complain about have other things to take care of. Sure I am pretty positive Alkustiel would love to track down a band trolls lets say terrorizing the Silver Marches...but 1) She has people who can do that for her...including the PCs. 2) If she takes a day to do so who knows what will happen in that day to Silverymoon. 3) Why use a sledge hammer to squash ants? Also lets say the PCs are Harpers and are given a job...why would they ask why isn't Storm handling this.(The answear is simple because she is busy making sure that the others things need to get done get done by watching the bigger picture.) But do you constantly ask what you boss is doing at a particular moment...or ask why can't your boss do this job? Same idea atleast to me. And please, what will you tell the player later what the NPC was doing? "There were something bigger going on"? The realms is no marvel universe where it is normal that at any timer there are dozends of world/country/multiverse destroying plots going on. Actualy I would like to disagree with you that there aren't a dozen plots going on around in the Realms...just the number of evil organization would indicate that they are a lot of plots going on...and that doesn't include independents. So I guess our world is unrealistic like the Mavel universe because they are lot of things that go on in our world. Also why does very plot that any evil comes up with destroys the world? I mean novels aside most of the groups want to control the world not destroy it... But I think you miss my point. Why would a powerful NPC take a bunch of 1st level characters who they don't know into their trust. I mean heck I usualy don't have the PCs get noticed till atleast 6th level(depending on how the group operates) and it is usualy by 12th level that the party proves trust worthy and capable for these NPCs to trust with matters...of course eventualy those NPCs start coming to the PCs for help and starts to view them as equals. Or is your ego is so big that you think that PCs' actions should start shaking the Realms at 1st level? And thats what I mean with ignoring because that is not how those high level NPCs would behave (according to their profession, alignment and according to novels they appear in). I'll just make a note about novels. A author is writing to tell a story. So any character in that novel will act according to what he need for them to do to accomplish what he needs done. I personaly don't treat D&D as storytelling. A example of this is in the Orc King. Alustriel actions is so out of character considering the same author had her personaly come to Mithrel Halls aid when the Drow attacked, but he needed her to act this way to tell the story he wanted to tell. As for their professions(sure many of them as professions that would actualy keep the quite busy like being a ruler or a head of a continent spaning organization, or in Elminster case exploring the planes). As for alignments just because you might want to do something doesn't mean you can do it as you might of other responsibilities.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-30-07, 04:19 PM	I'll just make a note about novels. A author is writing to tell a story. So any character in that novel will act according to what he need for them to do to accomplish what he needs done. I personaly don't treat D&D as storytelling. A example of this is in the Orc King. Alustriel actions is so out of character considering the same author had her personaly come to Mithrel Halls aid when the Drow attacked, but he needed her to act this way to tell the story he wanted to tell. I also think it was a bit odd how Alustriel personally stayed at Mithral Hall to help build the wall and bridge. I know she's friends with Drizzt and Co., but doesn't she have a Realm to run?
MarkusTay63 10-30-07, 04:24 PM	But RAS is the new Overgod of the Realms (he killed Ao and took his stuff ;) ). That means when he says jump, Alustriel says "how high?" :rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 10-30-07, 04:26 PM	I also think it was a bit odd how Alustriel personally stayed at Mithral Hall to help build the wall and bridge. I know she's friends with Drizzt and Co., but doesn't she have a Realm to run? She's :censored: Alustriel. Whose going to gainsay her? The girl probably has regents and stuff plus can pop in and out whenever she likes.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-30-07, 05:55 PM	She's :censored: Alustriel. Whose going to gainsay her? The girl probably has regents and stuff plus can pop in and out whenever she likes. That applies equally to bridge-building and wall-building, as far as I can tell. If it's that easy to get underlings to rule in her place, it should be just as easy to find someone else to take her place in bridge-building... She doesn't pop in and out in the book, either.
MarkusTay63 10-30-07, 06:24 PM	She needed to use all those levels in Craft (Masonry) somewhere. :P
Stigger 10-30-07, 06:28 PM	Actually, the way that I've always taken the Chosen in their personalities, there are a lot of people who would gainsay them. Well, maybe not Khelben or the Simbul so much, but the rest of them don't really strike me as being that intimidating or arrogant as to not to listen to good advice, and in fact would seem to invite and welcome differing points of view. As to what to do for the non-Chosen Derren, its not any different at all. Vangey or Calednei aren't going to involve themselves in every little detail or hiccup that shows up, presuming they even know about it in the first place. Something happens in some little corner of Cormyr that doesn't have a local War Wizard or Crown Agent who has access to a Sending spell (not many land-line telephones, much less cellulars in Faerun that I'm aware of afterall) is pretty much going to leave the Crown/War Wizards blind... and the PCs left holding the bag in terms of stopping said case of Evil Afoot. Besides, even if a messenger is sent to warn someone, that doesn't mean that the bad guys can't have someone waiting to kill said messenger a little farther down the road... I mean really, its that simple. You have to be aware of a problem before you can act to stop it, and that gets a lot more difficult without things like phones, news agencies, and the like. Really, I fail to see why this would even be an issue in the first place...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-30-07, 06:37 PM	Actually, the way that I've always taken the Chosen in their personalities, there are a lot of people who would gainsay them. Well, maybe not Khelben or the Simbul so much, but the rest of them don't really strike me as being that intimidating or arrogant as to not to listen to good advice, and in fact would seem to invite and welcome differing points of view. And on that note, in this novel (The Orc King) Alustriel is hesistant to act openly against the orcs precisely because she feels she must abide by the wishes of the Council (I presume the Council of the Silver Marches). So, she doesn't feel she can just do whatever she wants with her power.
msatran 11-05-07, 01:14 PM	None of us wrote Bloodstone Pass, those modules come with pregens, Gareth's one of them. So he's ridiculously high level. He FOUGHT AN AVATAR OF ORCUS AND WON. He had a party of adventurers with him. It's okay to have NPC parties of adventurers. Toril's not going to turn into a pumpkin.
Bonzai 11-06-07, 01:34 PM	And building up to that, Gareth and his friends fought against the zhengi's minions, slew a few dragons (I think), and eventually defeated the Zhengi it's self. So it wasn't like they have no justification for their levels.
18DELTA 11-07-07, 06:23 PM	I tend to think of the Chosen as the Avengers, East and West Coast.;)
Stigger 11-07-07, 06:28 PM	They have way too many loose clothes on to quite reach that conclusion for me... put them in spandex and I could maybe see it if I look at it sideways enough though.
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 06:58 PM	If The Chosen Were the Avengers it would be a team consisting of: Scarlet Witch, Janet Van Dyne, Tigra, Mockingbird, Sersei, Crystal, Spiderwoman, Hank Pym and Tony Stark
18DELTA 11-07-07, 09:37 PM	If The Chosen Were the Avengers it would be a team consisting of: Scarlet Witch, Janet Van Dyne, Tigra, Mockingbird, Sersei, Crystal, Spiderwoman, Hank Pym and Tony Stark :D
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 10:40 PM	You know that Tony picked that team. And Hank solely so he could act smug and superior.
18DELTA 11-08-07, 12:04 AM	You know that Tony picked that team. And Hank solely so he could act smug and superior. Cause Tony is such a ladies man!:D Hank is so insecure.:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 11-08-07, 01:53 AM	I think they're more like the Super Friends. :D "Apache Chief... Grooooow!" :dancin: Then we can get all the bad guys - Szass Tam, Manshoon, Shoon VII, ect... to form the Legion of Doom. "Solomon Grundy want pants!" :P
18DELTA 11-08-07, 12:01 PM	No the Masters of Evil!:D
MerrikCale 11-08-07, 08:36 PM	No the Masters of Evil!:D my favorite baddies of all time. though I did name my fantasy football team the Legion of Doom
Charles Phipps 11-08-07, 08:46 PM	The Legion of EVIL Manshoon, Quenthel, Fzoul, Halastar, Ssass Tam, Artemis Enteri, Kymil Nemsin, Obould Many Arrows, Jarlaxle, Diedre Kendrick, Malik, and Inferno are at it again!
18DELTA 11-08-07, 11:38 PM	my favorite baddies of all time. though I did name my fantasy football team the Legion of Doom Hawk and Animal?:D Then there is the Marauders, The 4 horsemen(no not Rick Flair, Arn Anderson, Steve "Mongo" McMicheal, and Chris Beniot), The Brotherhood of Evil!:D What are some more Evil groups from Marvel? Never got into DC..."SHRUGS".;)
MarkusTay63 11-09-07, 01:07 AM	There's Spiderman's Sinister Six. The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants The Hellfire Club. Wasn't there agroup of 'Cobra' wanna-be's? I think they even had snakes on them... The Serpent Society? Nay... that was another bunch or wierdos... DC had dozens - just about every major hero had a Rogues Gallery, and they would often team-up. EDIT: HYYDRA!!! :D - I remembered!
Charles Phipps 11-09-07, 01:09 AM	There's DC's KOBRA And there's The Sons of the Serpent. HYDRA is a different group altogether.
18DELTA 11-09-07, 10:29 AM	You guys Rock!:D
MerrikCale 11-14-07, 11:16 PM	What are some more Evil groups from Marvel? The Lethal Legion, the U-Foes, A.I.M., the Reavers, the Frightful Four
MarkusTay63 11-15-07, 05:54 PM	Not to mention the off-world groups, such as the Brood, Skrull, Kree, Badoon, Dire Wraiths, and even the Shi'ar on occassion. ;)
MerrikCale 11-16-07, 09:46 PM	Not to mention the off-world groups, such as the Brood, Skrull, Kree, Badoon, Dire Wraiths, and even the Shi'ar on occassion. ;) Or the Brethren (a name which I stole from my campaign). There's also the Gatherers.
Sol_Odlanier 11-17-07, 01:14 AM	Hawk and Animal?:D Then there is the Marauders, The 4 horsemen(no not Rick Flair, Arn Anderson, Steve "Mongo" McMicheal, and Chris Beniot), The Brotherhood of Evil!:D What are some more Evil groups from Marvel? Never got into DC..."SHRUGS".;) The Hand The Sinietro Corps (I know is DC:yuck: But I think is really cool) The LA-LE-LU-LE-LO( sorry couldn't help it) Is That group that THe Red Skull has right now has a name? That Hulk army ( not evil persee but they are still kicking goods guys rears)
MerrikCale 11-17-07, 10:45 AM	That Hulk army ( not evil persee but they are still kicking goods guys rears) you mean the Hulkbusters
Blibbering_Humdinger 11-17-07, 04:44 PM	I guess that would make the Zhentarim, Red Wizards, etc. the Forgotten Realms' Legion of Doom... :P
Dark Wizard 11-17-07, 10:02 PM	Maybe the Twisted Rune = the Legion of Doom.
boards 11-19-07, 02:35 AM	you mean the Hulkbusters I think he is talking about the warbound from the planet hulk/world war hulk series in which Hulk does some serious butt wooping.:D
MarkusTay63 11-19-07, 02:47 AM	Maybe the Twisted Rune = the Legion of Doom.The Legion of Rune? The Twisted Doom? Hmmm.... that second one does sound pretty cool... :plotting:
Blibbering_Humdinger 11-19-07, 11:34 AM	The Twisted Lethal Legion of Evil Doom, then. It's long enough. I think...
Stigger 11-19-07, 11:52 AM	With chapter houses in Westgate, Calimport, Bezantur, Zhentil Keep, and Hlondeth... Bringing Evil Doom to a City Near You...