the (dis)advantages of fame, age and power [Archive] - Wizards Community

the (dis)advantages of fame, age and power [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
shion
05-21-07, 05:31 PM Of all teh residents of Faerun, the wizard Elminster is probably the most famous of all, his reputed strength par him with demigods and whatever he can't handle he got a lot of powerful allies and Mystra's support. So is he truly that powerful? I mean no one has ever bested him in a fight beacuse the retaliation? That no one has tried doesn't mean that he can be defeated, for a simple stat comparison he has an un-optimized array of stats, skill and classes.

Yeah, sure he got the munckin-goddess watching his back; but is truly Mystra that bored that she is always watching him? Some may argue that as a Chosen he is a being directly involved in the mind of his deity, but what makes this of him if every time he is risk of death or in dire danger "Puff" there goes Mystra to the rescue.

My real inquiry is a character like Elminster has a real challenge? Have those "favored of the Gods" gotten really boring excuses of live? are they too covered in fame and glory that nothing bothers them really, no one able to fight them or willing to?

Perhaps i sound biased against Elminster, not at all; i love the idea of a old Wise man that can be funny, intrepid and way smart, but i hate to watch such an active member of society forced to do gardening all day in his lrealy late years

comments? ideas?
GothicDan
05-21-07, 05:43 PM Yeah, sure he got the munckin-goddess watching his back

Because of this statement, I won't even bother going further into it then:

Yes. They all have challenges. All the time. Some Chosen have died, multiple times. Others have experienced emotional and spiritual tribulations the likes of which would crush any mortal twice over.
shion
05-21-07, 05:58 PM personally i think that mystra is too involved where she should, and given her level of power AND the quality of it: the weave itself, every new splatbook throwing powerful Mystra-related classes, feats that makes everyone wonder why the heck every creature in faerun isn't worshipping this Goddess ( you get a lot of nifty benefits by doing so).

And if you don't think that Mystra-related material is overwhelming and powerful, then where it goes the ability to tear a hole in the SHADOW weave, something she shouldn't be able to do so, or the "Cheater of mystra" build that even without the prestige class that mekes it utterly broken, its a viable and obscene Mystra-realted build

But this ratn isn't about Mystra but about her most poular devout, so back to teh comments
Krash
05-21-07, 07:01 PM The reply is that Elminster shouldn't have stats. He's a plot device. A non-combat NPC. There should be no reason for your PCs to square off against him in combat and ergo he doesn't require game statistics. So to answer your question: for YOUR campaign, just like for Ed's home campaign, he should be as powerful as you want him to be. If he features in your Realms and in your campaign he should sustain and enhance the story and plot of your gaming. Stats don't have anything to do with it. If you want him to be unbeatable in combat, then so be it. If you want to have him on the run and his tower in ruins after an attack by Szass Tam of Thay, go for it. Make Elminster your own. Don't rely on other writers or gamers or commentators to dictate what he should or shouldn't be for you.

-- George Krashos
msatran
05-21-07, 07:10 PM Truth be told, I never needed anything other than the stats in the book for Elminster.

He's 1,000+ years old, he has 9th level spells and the smarts to use them in the most ridiculous way possible. ANyone who assaults his tower should be the victim of "Pave Penny" tactics over and over again.

What was that? You attacked Elminster's tower? So how many rocks turned into Great Wyrm Gold Dragons from contingent Polymorph Any Object?

Did you survive that?

Whoops, you killed them all? Wow, you must be really uber. How many hit points do you have left? Excellent, second contingent effect goes off, all Great Worm Gold Dragons transform into 200 foot wide cubes of adamantine. Make a reflex save at DC 50, because realistically, you shouldn't be able to dodge a 200 foot wide cube of Adamantine.

The adamantine hits you, crushing you, and then turns into an earthworm, which becomes a rock in a few rounds. Sure, it costs 300 XP to relandscape everything afterwards, but so what?

Only a complete munchkin would include the phrase "Protected by a Goddess, blah blah blah" without thinking through that there had to be a reason why he got that way.

And yes, that means he can out-munchkin you. Too bad.
Old Sage
05-21-07, 08:12 PM Elminster has been defeated many times. The events of Elminster in Hell prove this. Only a sadist could ask for a bigger defeat than that.

Elminster, like many of his allies and foes, has lived for hundreds of years by careful preparation of skills, knowledge, hanging magics, pacts and alliances. It just isn't likely that someone so long-lived, and not through luck, should happen to permanently die in the few-decades span of the published 'current' Realms. Yet, he will.
Lord Karsus
05-22-07, 12:05 AM -The disadvantages of fame, age and power? Itty-bitty living space...;)
Lord_Madrigan
05-22-07, 01:22 AM -The disadvantages of fame, age and power? Itty-bitty living space...;)

We got spells for that.

As for Disadvantages, Well when you hit any note worthy level of power
A bunch of Idiots always show up to try and take it from you.

Just ask Elminster he gets them about once a month.
Aegis_Chiron
05-22-07, 02:59 AM Carefully read the novels and you begin to realize that something important about ole El. He may know every spell known to man/elf/dragon or whoever else, he may be able to craft whatever item at a moments notice and he MAY even have a goddess at his beck-and-call (depending on how you view their relationship), but he's far from invincible.

In many of the novels, you see him considering his 1000+ year life, and realizing just how many people he's left behind. How many women he's known, how many friends have died (even worthy opponents!). I truly beleive the ravages of time will defeat Elminster better than any spell or demon can.
Lord Karsus
05-22-07, 08:10 AM We got spells for that.

-Nevermind. I was trying to be funny...:rolleyes:
ShadezofDis
05-22-07, 10:32 AM As for Disadvantages, Well when you hit any note worthy level of power
A bunch of Idiots always show up to try and take it from you.

Just ask Elminster he gets them about once a month.

Yep, there's that one.

And all the people coming to you for help, from haughty noble to desperate commoners, then complaining when that help wasn't exactly what they wanted.

Then there are all the people you've managed to **** off over the years. :)
Lord_Madrigan
05-22-07, 01:54 PM -Nevermind. I was trying to be funny...:rolleyes:

I Know :P so was I
I also saw that movie.
Lord Karsus
05-22-07, 01:56 PM -A surprisingly good movie, at that- especially since I am still saying that, when I am much older than when I was when I first saw it. :embarrass

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shion 05-21-07, 05:31 PM	Of all teh residents of Faerun, the wizard Elminster is probably the most famous of all, his reputed strength par him with demigods and whatever he can't handle he got a lot of powerful allies and Mystra's support. So is he truly that powerful? I mean no one has ever bested him in a fight beacuse the retaliation? That no one has tried doesn't mean that he can be defeated, for a simple stat comparison he has an un-optimized array of stats, skill and classes. Yeah, sure he got the munckin-goddess watching his back; but is truly Mystra that bored that she is always watching him? Some may argue that as a Chosen he is a being directly involved in the mind of his deity, but what makes this of him if every time he is risk of death or in dire danger "Puff" there goes Mystra to the rescue. My real inquiry is a character like Elminster has a real challenge? Have those "favored of the Gods" gotten really boring excuses of live? are they too covered in fame and glory that nothing bothers them really, no one able to fight them or willing to? Perhaps i sound biased against Elminster, not at all; i love the idea of a old Wise man that can be funny, intrepid and way smart, but i hate to watch such an active member of society forced to do gardening all day in his lrealy late years comments? ideas?
GothicDan 05-21-07, 05:43 PM	Yeah, sure he got the munckin-goddess watching his back Because of this statement, I won't even bother going further into it then: Yes. They all have challenges. All the time. Some Chosen have died, multiple times. Others have experienced emotional and spiritual tribulations the likes of which would crush any mortal twice over.
shion 05-21-07, 05:58 PM	personally i think that mystra is too involved where she should, and given her level of power AND the quality of it: the weave itself, every new splatbook throwing powerful Mystra-related classes, feats that makes everyone wonder why the heck every creature in faerun isn't worshipping this Goddess ( you get a lot of nifty benefits by doing so). And if you don't think that Mystra-related material is overwhelming and powerful, then where it goes the ability to tear a hole in the SHADOW weave, something she shouldn't be able to do so, or the "Cheater of mystra" build that even without the prestige class that mekes it utterly broken, its a viable and obscene Mystra-realted build But this ratn isn't about Mystra but about her most poular devout, so back to teh comments
Krash 05-21-07, 07:01 PM	The reply is that Elminster shouldn't have stats. He's a plot device. A non-combat NPC. There should be no reason for your PCs to square off against him in combat and ergo he doesn't require game statistics. So to answer your question: for YOUR campaign, just like for Ed's home campaign, he should be as powerful as you want him to be. If he features in your Realms and in your campaign he should sustain and enhance the story and plot of your gaming. Stats don't have anything to do with it. If you want him to be unbeatable in combat, then so be it. If you want to have him on the run and his tower in ruins after an attack by Szass Tam of Thay, go for it. Make Elminster your own. Don't rely on other writers or gamers or commentators to dictate what he should or shouldn't be for you. -- George Krashos
msatran 05-21-07, 07:10 PM	Truth be told, I never needed anything other than the stats in the book for Elminster. He's 1,000+ years old, he has 9th level spells and the smarts to use them in the most ridiculous way possible. ANyone who assaults his tower should be the victim of "Pave Penny" tactics over and over again. What was that? You attacked Elminster's tower? So how many rocks turned into Great Wyrm Gold Dragons from contingent Polymorph Any Object? Did you survive that? Whoops, you killed them all? Wow, you must be really uber. How many hit points do you have left? Excellent, second contingent effect goes off, all Great Worm Gold Dragons transform into 200 foot wide cubes of adamantine. Make a reflex save at DC 50, because realistically, you shouldn't be able to dodge a 200 foot wide cube of Adamantine. The adamantine hits you, crushing you, and then turns into an earthworm, which becomes a rock in a few rounds. Sure, it costs 300 XP to relandscape everything afterwards, but so what? Only a complete munchkin would include the phrase "Protected by a Goddess, blah blah blah" without thinking through that there had to be a reason why he got that way. And yes, that means he can out-munchkin you. Too bad.
Old Sage 05-21-07, 08:12 PM	Elminster has been defeated many times. The events of Elminster in Hell prove this. Only a sadist could ask for a bigger defeat than that. Elminster, like many of his allies and foes, has lived for hundreds of years by careful preparation of skills, knowledge, hanging magics, pacts and alliances. It just isn't likely that someone so long-lived, and not through luck, should happen to permanently die in the few-decades span of the published 'current' Realms. Yet, he will.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 12:05 AM	-The disadvantages of fame, age and power? Itty-bitty living space...;)
Lord_Madrigan 05-22-07, 01:22 AM	-The disadvantages of fame, age and power? Itty-bitty living space...;) We got spells for that. As for Disadvantages, Well when you hit any note worthy level of power A bunch of Idiots always show up to try and take it from you. Just ask Elminster he gets them about once a month.
Aegis_Chiron 05-22-07, 02:59 AM	Carefully read the novels and you begin to realize that something important about ole El. He may know every spell known to man/elf/dragon or whoever else, he may be able to craft whatever item at a moments notice and he MAY even have a goddess at his beck-and-call (depending on how you view their relationship), but he's far from invincible. In many of the novels, you see him considering his 1000+ year life, and realizing just how many people he's left behind. How many women he's known, how many friends have died (even worthy opponents!). I truly beleive the ravages of time will defeat Elminster better than any spell or demon can.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 08:10 AM	We got spells for that. -Nevermind. I was trying to be funny...:rolleyes:
ShadezofDis 05-22-07, 10:32 AM	As for Disadvantages, Well when you hit any note worthy level of power A bunch of Idiots always show up to try and take it from you. Just ask Elminster he gets them about once a month. Yep, there's that one. And all the people coming to you for help, from haughty noble to desperate commoners, then complaining when that help wasn't exactly what they wanted. Then there are all the people you've managed to **** off over the years. :)
Lord_Madrigan 05-22-07, 01:54 PM	-Nevermind. I was trying to be funny...:rolleyes: I Know :P so was I I also saw that movie.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 01:56 PM	-A surprisingly good movie, at that- especially since I am still saying that, when I am much older than when I was when I first saw it. :embarrass