| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| BrennonGoldeye05-21-07, 08:40 PM | OK, I have some good ideas about what miffs folk about Mystra, and for that matter the rest of the Divine.. Now how about Their Chosen, note the Their. It's seems that much of the problem is with the worshipers, not the Worshiped. Thus People & Places... Phrase it calmly and succinctly. Once again, all posts will be respected, if not agreed with. Please signature quote, even you old farts that normally don't. It's not only a sign of respect, but wisdom. |
| Karsus the Mad05-21-07, 08:48 PM | Is this a deja vu scenario:confused: In any event, I don't have any problem with Chosen or proxies or seraphs or whatever term one desires to call them. I may have a dislike of certain individuals who just happen to be Chosen/proxy/seraph, but it has nothing to do with their status. |
| Old Sage05-21-07, 09:02 PM | Please signature quote, even you old farts that normally don't.You don't think I'm that old, do you Bren? :D |
| Old Sage05-21-07, 09:03 PM | And I don't think I'll contribute anything to this right now. I'll sit back and see how this discussion evolves -- standing ready to correct any misconceived notions or poorly researched statements when necessary. |
| Karsus the Mad05-21-07, 09:10 PM | Here's some coffee for your vigil:whatsthis and my mantle. It might come in handy. It was designed to allow me to go for long periods of time without food or rest, afterall. |
| Lord Karsus05-22-07, 12:02 AM | -You should fix the title, Bren. The HTML doesn't apply there. -Anyway, I wish some of the "old school" Chosen-haters were around... |
| Alediran05-22-07, 12:18 AM | -Anyway, I wish some of the "old school" Chosen-haters were around... It's probably they converted. |
| msatran05-22-07, 12:25 AM | Can cast in an anti magic field. Broken. Remove this ability, and Mystra is fine. |
| Lord Karsus05-22-07, 12:29 AM | It's probably they converted. -Or, they died. Either way...:shifty: |
| GothicDan05-22-07, 12:29 AM | Ed's already expressed his opinion that any sufficiently powerful Mage in FR should be able to bypass Anti-Magic fields, through the use of spells like "spell shear" (never officially statted). And you don't have to worship Mystra to do it. |
| Lord Karsus05-22-07, 12:31 AM | -You know, speaking of Mystra's Chosen, when was the last time The Simbul posted? Been a while... |
| Old Sage05-22-07, 01:21 AM | Ed's already expressed his opinion that any sufficiently powerful Mage in FR should be able to bypass Anti-Magic fields, through the use of spells like "spell shear" (never officially statted). And you don't have to worship Mystra to do it.Indeed. Ed noted that an anti-magic spell is still, essentially, a spell. It's not really something you can consider to be dead magic as it still has a connection to the Weave itself. I recall Ed suggesting the possibility of creating a spell which was tailored specifically to handle anti-magic shells and be cast in areas of anti-magic. |
| allenchan05-22-07, 03:10 AM | Im curious, how many Chosen exist, and of what dieties? Is there a list somewhere, by any chance? It seems like Mystra has a ton, but I know other dieties have them as well... |
| The_King_in_Yellow05-22-07, 06:52 AM | Ed's already expressed his opinion that any sufficiently powerful Mage in FR should be able to bypass Anti-Magic fields, through the use of spells like "spell shear" (never officially statted). And you don't have to worship Mystra to do it. Someone on the main board suggested it, I can't think of the feat's name and I'm not going digging though it's meta magic. Is is shape spell? A shape which doesn't include the centre square, in other words a donut shape. I can't believe this thread has returned, looks like I'll have to rally the hater ranks. :) |
| Karsus the Mad05-22-07, 07:26 AM | an anti-magic spell is still, essentially, a spell. It's not really something you can consider to be dead magic as it still has a connection to the Weave itself. Which is a very reasonable view actually. I don't see any reason why a spell of a reasonably sufficient level (in this case, at least 7th level) couldn't be researched to specifically nullify an anti-magic field. A metamagic feat sounds more game-ish tho'. One that allows a spell to opperate in anti-magic. +7 slot modifier. |
| Lord Karsus05-22-07, 08:25 AM | Im curious, how many Chosen exist, and of what dieties? Is there a list somewhere, by any chance? It seems like Mystra has a ton, but I know other dieties have them as well... Canon Chosen Mystra Elminster Aumar Storm Silverhand Laeral Silverhand Alustrial Silverhand The Simbul Sylune Silverhand Qilue Veladorn Dove Falconhand Noumea Drathchuld Alvaerele Tasundrym Azuth (Ascended to Divinity) Symrustar Auglamyr (Deceased) Khelben Arunsun (Deceased) Sammaster (Depowered and Deceased) The Srinshee Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep Nadrathen (Deceased) Bane Fzoul Chembryl Cyric Malik el Sami yn Nasser Deneir Cadderly Bonaduce Pertelope (Deceased) Eilistraee Qilue Veladorn Eldath Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Gilgleam Shuruppak (Ex-Chosen since Gilgleam's death) Mask Kesson Rel Avner of Hartsvale Erevis Cale Drasek Riven Mielikki Jeryth Phaulkon Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Oghma Sephris Dwendon Shar A Mysterious Being Silvanus Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Talona The Rotting Man Tiamat Tchazzar Ubtao Alisandra Rayburton Dhlamass Rayburton Ras Ni Fipya Kwalu Mainu Ossaw I Umberlee Slarkrathel Malar Anth-Malar Lolth Liriel Baenre (possibly but might be a ExChosen) Halisstra Melarn, the Lady Penitent Merrshaulk/Sseth Pil'it'ith (Ex-Chosen) Sehanine Moonbow Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep Labelas Enoreth Vartan Hai Sylver The Seldarine Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet Ilyrana Gzimnind Skixtalq Possible Chosen Erevan Illesere Fox-At-Twilight Gruumsh Obould Many-Arrows Teylas Yamun Khahan Qotal Erix |
| ShadezofDis05-22-07, 09:48 AM | My "problem" isn't even really a problem per say (as I easily work around it). But I would love to see more focus on the worshipers and less on the worshiped. (Gods don't work well as characters, IMO, the upstart 3 worked well at first, since they still had more mortal outlooks vs immortal {really long lived at least *g*} but for the rest of the gods, well, they shouldn't be working on a day to day scale, more of a century to century) So, in other words, I'd love to see the Chosen of a particular god work more independently than is typically shown (though, IMO, they do exactly that and IMR, in my realms, that's how they operate). :) |
| Stigger05-22-07, 10:13 AM | I have no problem with any of the Chosen of any of the deities really... makes sense to me that certain deities would have empowered agents to enforce their will and to protect their interests, beyond what the clergy can or will do. By the same extension, it also makes sense to me that certain deities would not bother with them at all. Were they not already there, I probably would have stuck them in anyway. Other than that observation, I'm not sure how much else I could contribute to this potential debate... |
| Old Sage05-22-07, 10:24 AM | I hadn't noticed until now but LK, Dragons of Faerūn tells us that Tchazzar is not a Chosen of Tiamat. It's just a title. |
| Chosen of Bane05-22-07, 10:33 AM | If I read/remember correctly, Tchazzar was given the title of Chosen by Tiamat herself. So, even if he doesn't have a nice template of powers that we've grown accustomed too, I would still consider him a canon Chosen. And for the record, I have no problem with Chosen. It makes perfect sense for the deities to have a mortal (or select few) who act as their favored proxy. |
| MarkusTay6305-22-07, 10:38 AM | And I don't think I'll contribute anything to this right now. I'll sit back and see how this discussion evolves -- standing ready to correct any misconceived notions or poorly researched statements when necessary.Its all very simple really, the chosen are only as powerful and involved IG as the DM allows. When DMs complain about them, I get very confused. The Chosen should not be running around helping/hindering the PCs, until they start appoaching the lev 18 range. Before that, their business is on a whole different scale. Thats the exact reason why the world still needs heroes; Elminster is not about to stop every gang of bandits or Orc raiding party, but he 'might' put the word out through intermediaries so the problem will get taken care of by people of a more appropriate level. Comic Fans should know how to play them. Their are three different level of heroes - Human, Empowerd, and Cosmic. Human are people like Batman and Daredevil, who stop bankrobbers. Empowered are people like Spiderman and Flash, who may occassionally stop a bank roberry, but are more concerned with foiling the plans of powerful villains. And then there's the Cosmic level, which is like Chosen. These types stop alien Invasions, extra-dimensional intrusons, and planet-eaters. They are the Supermans and the Fantastic Fours. Those guys don't stop bank robbers, thats just way beneath them. So, if you have everything in balance in your game, then everything has a place. ;) |
| Old Sage05-22-07, 11:22 AM | And for the record, I have no problem with Chosen. It makes perfect sense for the deities to have a mortal (or select few) who act as their favored proxy.As I've said many times... I never lump Mystra's Chosen together with the rest of the now more apparent Chosen of deities in the 3e FR. Part of why Mystra's Chosen are unique is because of their role. They balance out Mystra, and store some of her power in case it's needed. They're kinda like "loyal opposition" -- they are loyal to Mystra, but they are not controlled by her, and with them having some of her power, they can act in opposition to her if she gets out of control. They are also assistants of a sort; they work to further the spread of magic, but in a pinch, they can also help to maintain the Weave. That is why Mystra has Chosen. That is why hers are special. The other Chosen of FR deities, or rather... Divine Champions as I call them, are but pale shadows. "Divine Champion" would work well enough for any. Or any other title of specialty that doesn't reflect a connection to the special nature of Mystra's own Chosen. There's very little basis for the connection between the roles of the other "Chosen" of the various deities and Mystra's Chosen -- so the titles should be different. To make the Divine Champions of the other deities similar to Mystra's Chosen takes away the charm of the Chosen of Mystra characters and makes their entire position in the Realms seem "usual". |
| The Ubbergeek05-22-07, 11:35 AM | It should be usual - a Chosen is a Champion. Semantic. (In history and society and game role, maybe not metaphisicaly, but.... look down) And let us remember that the 'Chosens of mystra are her safeguard thing' is the official tale... Things may be different. |
| Old Sage05-22-07, 11:43 AM | Mystra's are a unique case: they exist primarily to hold parts of her divine power as a precaution against the catastrophe of her death. It is only one mortal theory that Ao ordered this. (In Ed Greenwood's original conception, Mystra's were the only Chosen. Other authors added additional ones, misunderstanding Ed's purpose and starting something of an arms race.) |
| Lord Karsus05-22-07, 12:03 PM | And then there's the Cosmic level, which is like Chosen. These types stop alien Invasions, extra-dimensional intrusons, and planet-eaters. They are the Supermans and the Fantastic Fours. Those guys don't stop bank robbers, thats just way beneath them. -The Fantastic Four do plenty of community policing. I hadn't noticed until now but LK, Dragons of Faerūn tells us that Tchazzar is not a Chosen of Tiamat. It's just a title. -Great. You know, I always thought there was something fishy about Tchazzar being a Chosen of Tiamat, anyway. -You'd think they'd choose a less ambiguous title... |
| MarkusTay6305-22-07, 12:52 PM | -The Fantastic Four do plenty of community policing.They all do on occassion, even Superman will foil a bank robbery if he happens to pass one on the street, but its way diffeent then actively seeking out such low-level scum when there are bigger fish to fry. Reed Richards has all kinds of cosmic whosy-whasis watching alternate dimensions like the negative zone. If you are going to tell me he is simultaneously keeping track of the Yancy Street Gang then I have big problems with that (unless he has unknown powers that allow him to slow time, be in multiple places at once, and never sleep). Its all about scaleability, and the Realms are chock full of that. In a properly run (low-level) game, the Chosen are scenary. A cameo once in a blue moon might be okay, but unless your characters are doing something major to catch their attention then their is no reason for them to be more then backdrop. Why would someone who doesn't like them even use them IG? :confused: |
| zerodeviere05-22-07, 12:57 PM | Not Crazy about Mystra's chosen.... they seem to use the extra power for their own needs more so than the needs of the regular people. they act more like petty tyrants than people of virtue and goodness. if they are going to be doing good for the sake of the people they should also understand that the people like explainations not just being pushed out of the way because a chosen says so. IMO |
| Faraer05-22-07, 01:29 PM | But I would love to see more focus on the worshipers and less on the worshiped.I think pretty much all the authors do too. But even in mouse type the F&A books didn't have enough space for much detail on the churches, Dragon never wanted it, Faiths and Pantheons was directed to waste pages on god stats, and the success of the Elminster novels and the Avatar series has led TSR and Wizards to this skewed approach which has leached into reader expectations as well. And let us remember that the 'Chosens of mystra are her safeguard thing' is the official tale... Things may be different.Not official, it's a secret, and part of a bigger, more secret one. |
| Lord Karsus05-22-07, 01:38 PM | Why would someone who doesn't like them even use them IG? :confused: -To justify why they don't like the characters in the first place, by portraying them in a negative light in their own campaigns, stories, and whatever else. Many people (particularly women, and I have both my mother and my sister to support my view on this) find something they don't like, and fixate on it, trying to make it look worse in their own eyes, and trying to make it look bad in the eyes of others. |
| msatran05-22-07, 01:41 PM | Yeah, I wasn't happy with Faiths and Pantheons having so many pages wasted on God stats either. Church organization and how clerics should behave, more information on dogma and ceremonies, and most importantly... HOW A PRIEST OF A FAITH SHOULD VIEW THEIR DOMAINS! In all honesty, if they had ONE PRC for every deity, as much as I loathe the idea, I would have preferred that to the retarded amount of space spent on diety stats. It would have kept the crunch people happy, and since deity specific PRCs are actually lore based, it would have shut the rest of us up. Unfortunately, they're not that smart. A book with 150 PRCs in it would have sold tons of copies no matter what it was. |
| Lord Karsus05-22-07, 01:49 PM | Church organization and how clerics should behave, more information on dogma and ceremonies, and most importantly... HOW A PRIEST OF A FAITH SHOULD VIEW THEIR DOMAINS! -That stuff was in Faiths and Avatars, Demihuman Deities, and Powers and Pantheons. Though I agree 100% with you, all of that information was already published and accessable, though in a different group of books. |
| Chosen of Bane05-22-07, 01:58 PM | Mystra's are a unique case: they exist primarily to hold parts of her divine power as a precaution against the catastrophe of her death. It is only one mortal theory that Ao ordered this. (In Ed Greenwood's original conception, Mystra's were the only Chosen. Other authors added additional ones, misunderstanding Ed's purpose and starting something of an arms race.) Sage, I truly hate to disagree with you because I realize you have a far higher level of realms knowledge than I and I take your opinions as near fact both here and at Candlekeep. But I feel that too many people hold Mystra's Chosen in a special light because they have a sense of nostalgia from being the first and the one's that the Creator (Ed) made himself. (and I too am a big Ed fan) For instance, I don't think that "existing primarily to hold parts of her divine power as a precaution against the catastrophe of her death" has to be something that is unique to Mystra. Sure she may have come up with the idea but that is completely plausable for other deities as well. Bane for instance was killed once and only came back because his sentience was stored in Xvim. What if Bane decided he doesn't want to die for good so he stores some of his divine power in Fzoul Chembry to "hold parts of his divine power as a precaution against the catastrophe of his death." He also acts as the embodiment of Bane's dogma and assists to further the spread of tyranny, much like the Chosen of Mystra to with Mystra's dogma and the spread of magic. Mystra's chosen definitely have the good of the realm in their thoughts far more than the other Chosen that I know of but to me, that is because of the nature of Mystra. The other deities with Chosen may be more selfish but to them, their agendas are just as important. The only other point I'll disagree with is that Mystra's Chosen are "loyal to Mystra, but they are not controlled by her". Sure she doesn't mind control them, but neither does any god as far as I know. In all the stuff I've read the Chosen do work to do Mystra's bidding and even put themselves at great personal risk in order to further her plans. That is controling them as much as any other Chosen is controlled that I know of. And as I said above, I truly hate to disagree with the Old Sage, but on this one occasion I have to. I am a big fan of Mystra's Chosen and I appreciate the role they have, but we have no reason to assume that the other Chosen don't have equally unique and important roles. |
| MarkusTay6305-22-07, 06:20 PM | Yeah, I wasn't happy with Faiths and Pantheons having so many pages wasted on God stats either. Ya know, I used to regret NOT buying this tome, but the more I hear about it the more worthless I realize it is. I have everything I will ever need with the three 2e books. :D Also, only Mystra will ever have Chosen IMGs, the rest will have Champions, as it should be. Elric was NOT a Chosen of Arioch, he was a Champion of Chaos, and he was definately cool enough with that. |
| GothicDan05-22-07, 06:29 PM | I like using them as Proxies. It's more similar, from what I can tell, to how similar things were done in Greek legends (aristea). Not the Chosen of Mystra, though. The divine fire in them burns independently. |
| Lord Karsus05-22-07, 06:41 PM | Ya know, I used to regret NOT buying this tome, but the more I hear about it the more worthless I realize it is. -It has some nice pictures, and that's about it. Everything else is either: A) A rehash from the 2e diety soucrbooks B) Not very useful (PrCs, Deity Stats, Deific Feats/Abilities) -It does update Bane, though. A whole ambiguous paragrah or so. |
| MarkusTay6305-22-07, 06:57 PM | But I can get the pics for free here online, without shelling out any cash. I looked at them about a week ago though, and was once again glad I didn't waste my money. :nonono: I just don't get it, I see TONS of excellent amateur art online that WotC could probably pick up for next to nothing, yet they still continue to publish abysmal illustrations a lot. There were several in Silver Marches that made me have to control my gag reflex.... Speaking of which... Dan, proxies are also a good way of dealing with the chosen of other deities, but I always felt the terminology was too 'Planescape-ish'. Not that I don't love PS, but the it just doesn't seem FR enough. |
| MaskedOne05-22-07, 07:44 PM | Canon Chosen Mystra Elminster Aumar Storm Silverhand Laeral Silverhand Alustrial Silverhand The Simbul Sylune Silverhand Qilue Veladorn Dove Falconhand Noumea Drathchuld Alvaerele Tasundrym Symrustar Auglamyr (Deceased) Khelben Arunsun (Deceased) Sammaster (Depowered and Deceased) The Srinshee Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep Nadrathen (Deceased) Bane Fzoul Chembryl Cyric Malik el Sami yn Nasser Deneir Cadderly Bonaduce Pertelope (Deceased) Eilistraee Qilue Veladorn Eldath Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Gilgleam Shuruppak (Ex-Chosen since Gilgleam's death) Mask Kesson Rel Avner of Hartsvale Erevis Cale Drasek Riven Mielikki Jeryth Phaulkon Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Oghma Sephris Dwendon Shar A Mysterious Being Silvanus Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Talona The Rotting Man Tiamat Tchazzar Ubtao Alisandra Rayburton Dhlamass Rayburton Ras Ni Fipya Kwalu Mainu Ossaw I Umberlee Slarkrathel Malar Anth-Malar Lolth Liriel Baenre (possibly but might be a ExChosen) Halisstra Melarn, the Lady Penitent Merrshaulk/Sseth Pil'it'ith (Ex-Chosen) Sehanine Moonbow Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep Labelas Enoreth Vartan Hai Sylver The Seldarine Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet Ilyrana Gzimnind Skixtalq Possible Chosen Erevan Illesere Fox-At-Twilight Gruumsh Obould Many-Arrows Teylas Yamun Khahan Qotal Erix Would it do me any good whatsoever to reproduce the text from Secrets of the Magister that heavily suggests if not blatantly states that Azuth went from Magister to Chosen to God, again or should I presume that barring a direct statement from Greenwood I'm the only one who ever puts him on the list of Chosen? |
| Old Sage05-22-07, 08:12 PM | they act more like petty tyrants than people of virtue and goodness.Do you have examples to support this statement? |
| Old Sage05-22-07, 08:15 PM | Church organization and how clerics should behave, more information on dogma and ceremonies, and most importantly... HOW A PRIEST OF A FAITH SHOULD VIEW THEIR DOMAINS!Ed's managed to share what little he can about particular faith practices and rituals and ceremonies of specific clergies through his replies at Candlekeep. Unfortunately, TSR/WotC have never given much emphasis to such content in their FR products, so the extensive notes Ed has on these aspects of the various divine clergies active in the Realms today aren't likely to see any "official" spotlight. That is, unless you ping Ed over at Candlekeep in an attempt to see what he can reveal about a particular deity's divine rituals and the like. |
| Lord Karsus05-22-07, 08:16 PM | Would it do me any good whatsoever to reproduce the text from Secrets of the Magister that heavily suggests if not blatantly states that Azuth went from Magister to Chosen to God, again or should I presume that barring a direct statement from Greenwood I'm the only one who ever puts him on the list of Chosen? -Poor Azuth gets just as little respect as Savras. I'll add him, don't worry. |
| Zandilar05-22-07, 08:45 PM | Heya, -To justify why they don't like the characters in the first place, by portraying them in a negative light in their own campaigns, stories, and whatever else. Many people (particularly women, and I have both my mother and my sister to support my view on this) find something they don't like, and fixate on it, trying to make it look worse in their own eyes, and trying to make it look bad in the eyes of others. I don't think that's something specific to women, I think it's just human nature in general. Take a look at the Religious Right (controlled primarily by straight white males) and their attitudes to abortion and homosexuality sometime to see what I mean. On the subject - I recall vaguely reading somewhere that "Mysta's Chosen hold a portion of her power to keep her in check/to guard against disaster" is just one theory, and isn't necessarily true. It is supposed to be a mystery, after all! |
| Faraer05-22-07, 08:56 PM | We know from the Shadow of the Avatar novels that that's so at least as a mortal description, or rather that it's part of the situation. It's unknown to mortals whether it was Ao's command, Mystra's own wisdom, or what. |
| Zandilar05-22-07, 08:58 PM | Heya, We know from the Shadow of the Avatar novels that that's so at least as a mortal description, or rather that it's part of the situation. It's unknown to mortals whether it was Ao's command, Mystra's own wisdom, or what. Ah, thanks for that! :) The mysterious mystery of the Lady of Mysteries! :D |
| MaskedOne05-22-07, 09:03 PM | -Poor Azuth gets just as little respect as Savras. I'll add him, don't worry. Thanks. |
| Lord Karsus05-22-07, 09:09 PM | I don't think that's something specific to women, I think it's just human nature in general. -It was the only example I could think of where I could provide actual, first-hand evidence. It's nothing against women or anything... |
| GothicDan05-22-07, 09:51 PM | The very fact that we don't KNOW largely what the FULL capabilities OR responsibilities of Mystra's Chosen are, largely, I think, why they should be kept separate. It's not a matter of "who came first," but rather, that they're DIFFERENT. Just because the Wizard came before the Sorcerer in lore, for instance, doesn't mean that they're the same class, even if they're similar - and the same goes for the Druid and the Cleric. Just the name 'Chosen of X..' seems silly. I wouldn't even mind it if they just changed the names that these deities referred to them by. It seems ludicrous for a very independent group of deities to all call their deities 'Chosen of....'. |
| Stigger05-23-07, 06:21 AM | Those other Chosen are simply a plot by Shar, a massive disinformation campaign to marginalize her old foe... so I completely ignore the evil of it and just stick with Mystra's, as a good little faithful should. ;) |
| BrennonGoldeye05-23-07, 07:57 AM | I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.:yuck: |
| Stigger05-23-07, 08:31 AM | Feh, weenie, I do that all the time... well, I was when I was choking constantly anyway... but that's neither here nor there. So, what bit is the regurgitation for anyway? |
| BrennonGoldeye05-23-07, 01:06 PM | Let's just call it an allergy. ;) BTW, I figured I shouldn't even try to fix the thread title. Everybody seems to be going along just fine, and it proves that I'm human, or at least partially so.:D |
| Flicker05-23-07, 01:28 PM | Scuse the ignorance, When did Khelben snuff it? |
| GothicDan05-23-07, 01:30 PM | He passed on to Arvandor in Blackstaff. |
| BrennonGoldeye05-23-07, 01:31 PM | Scuse the ignorance, When did Khelben snuff it? In the novel Blackstaff. Very good novel that.:) |
| msatran05-23-07, 01:33 PM | Well, that just shows how FUNNY a god Umberlee is. People say she has no sense of humor? Making your chosen a squid? THAT'S FUNNY! |
| GothicDan05-23-07, 01:44 PM | I lawled a little when I first read it. |
| Lord Karsus05-23-07, 02:19 PM | -Hey, those things can get pretty damn big. And, there's no better enforcer on the open seas than a Giant Kraken! |
| allenchan05-23-07, 06:39 PM | Thanks for the list, btw. ps: Wasnt Iraclea a "possible" Chosen of Auril? |
| Stigger05-23-07, 06:57 PM | He was a Kraken, not a giant squid, at least as far as I remember it... /semantical Dan mode :D |
| Lord Karsus05-23-07, 11:26 PM | ps: Wasnt Iraclea a "possible" Chosen of Auril? -She was a powerful Cleric, yes, but nothing suggests that there was anything more to her than just that. |
| PharaunMizzrym05-24-07, 02:00 AM | As the God of the Dead, Kelemvor should eventually have a Chosen with a similar if not a bit greater level of power than Mystra's Chosen, but he should only have one (his 'Angel of Death"). Instead of silver fire, he would use the energy of the faithless trapped in the wall of Kelemvor in much the same way 'soul fire'. He would also be able to conscript the service of the souls of the false. they would be ghostlike in appearance but in actuality be treated as incorporeal outsiders instead of undead. Immunity to certain Necromancy spells would also be included. Instead of plus 10 to constitution he would recieve plus 10 to charisma (the better to turn undead with). He would be lawful neutral to the core, existing in body and soul only to carry out the 'natural/cosmic laws' of Kelemvor. Positive criticism and praise are appreciated. |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 02:12 AM | Kelemvor's DvR isn't near Mystra's, and the Weave is even more integral to Faerun than death is. And the question is... Are you basing your assertion for Kelemvor's Chosen off of Mystra's Chosen or the other 'Chosen' (Proxies)? The 'Other Chosen' have abilities, attitudes, and alignments that are more directly useful and analogous to their gods, while Mystra's are something altogether different (alignment, abilities - +10 Con for a Sorc/Wiz isn't the 'best', efficiency wise). |
| PharaunMizzrym05-24-07, 02:39 AM | For concentration the constitution boost is very efficient. as well as dealing with the usual frailty of mages. Magic is more important than death? If Fearun lacked magic it would be Midieval Europe and Egypt with the addition of monsters. Without death faerun would become overpopulated to the pointwhere resources would deplete and Abeir-Toril would wither. |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 02:46 AM | In Faerun, Magic infuses all things. It's like the Force in Star Wars. Reality would literally crumble apart, bit by bit, without it. This isn't speculation. Ed's said as much. The world would literallly go insane, and bit by bit would be destroyed, until order was restored... Somehow, if possible. |
| PharaunMizzrym05-24-07, 02:47 AM | Reality doesn't crumble in dead magic zones. |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 02:53 AM | No, because they're isolated pockets. They're effectively held together by the reality AROUND them, I would assume. Let me see if I can dig up the post from Ed. EDIT: I may have been hyperbolic in my above statement. When I meant 'go insane' and 'fall apart' I was referring to the widespread chaos and destruction as Ed states in his reply. |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 02:55 AM | Here we are. "September 27, 2005: Hello again, all. Ed replies to Kuje's plea for a debate-ending response to this: "What would happen to Realmspace/Toril/Faerun if the Weave was completely destroyed or Mystra was and no deity replaced the Weave or her? You've hinted in the past but some posters need more then hints to get the clear picture. And is Chauntea more powerful then Mystra because Chauntea has a higher divine rank according to Faiths & Pantheons even though you've repeatedly said Mystra is more powerful." Ed speaks: First and foremost, all gamers should remember that none of the information about the gods of the Realms can truly be trusted: it's a collection of what mortals imperfectly understand and can visualize (muddied by the 'pet theories' of many sages and priests, both current and down the centuries) about divine beings who may or may not impart accurate information to their worshippers (as the power of deities is related to the number and strength of their worshippers, it's best to think of deities as somewhat akin to used-car salesmen in the real world, presenting everything to make themselves look good or at least vitally necessary and as important as possible). So arguments about specifics of the gods (as opposed to their mortal churches and faithful) are essentially futile, because none of the data those arguing use can be trusted. With that said, the Weave can most precisely be defined as a system of "seeing" (identifying, understanding, and influencing or "calling on") the natural flows of energy in Realmspace/Toril/Faerūn. Some folk say the Weave IS magic, and that magic is natural energy harnessed. Priests of Mystra often say that "Mystra IS the Weave." The priests are correct: Mystra is the Weave, and if there was another deity controlling magic, whatever precise system of harnessing natural energies (whether it was called the Weave or not) would be (at the least) subtly different from the Weave as Faerūnians know it today. The "some folk" in my sentence above are for all practical daily purposes correct, but not precisely accurate: the Weave is the predominant and "most correct" (and thus, most powerful) means of harnessing natural energies: in other words, it is magic but it's not the ONLY magic (as evidenced by the Shadow Weave and other, less-powerful alternatives to the Weave: table magic, pluma magic, etc.). It seems likely that to destroy Mystra would be to destroy the Weave, and vice versa (I say likely because a lot would depend on the deeds and dispositions of other "deities of magic" like Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon, and the nonhuman deities concerned with governance over magic, at the time of the fall of Mystra and/or the Weave). This would NOT mean that Realmspace/Toril/Faerūn would necessarily be destroyed, nor that magic would 'go away.' It probably would mean a lot of widespread magical chaos, and magic that thereafter 'worked differently' (either wholly or subtly) from the system of spells described in the current game rulebooks - - because they deal with magic in Faerūn "under the Weave." So a DM who wants to change magic in his or her Realms campaign to a spell-points system, or back to the spell levels and descriptions of earlier D&D editions, or substitute magic systems from other games, or just "tinker" with the published spells, could readily use a "destruction of the Weave" catacalysm as an in-game reason for such alterations. As for the differing ranks of Chauntea and Mystra: two factors apply here. The first is that divine "rankings" are part of the game rules, a way of expressing relative power relationships AS MORTALS SEE THEM. In other words, Lolth doesn't turn to Malar and say, "Nyah nyah! I'm an Intermediate Deity and you're only a Lesser Deity!" (Why? Because neither of them even knows the terms, let alone clearly understands or accepts the power differences between them.) The gods carry on endless struggles for supremacy and influence, tempered by their natures (which are in large part governed by their portfolios: in other words, Tempus is a warlike, competitive god, but Eldath isn't, and never will be; Tempus may do aggressive things but any violence Eldath engages in will essentially be defensive or retributive), but they don't get little gold stars or anything else that tells them their divine rank today. They can often sense their relative level of power versus another deity, but may well be wrong: Realms fiction is full of scenes wherein gods obviously have different views over who's most powerful, and who should prevail. Moreover, the importance of a deity in the eyes of mortals has to do with how important they are, and how liked (or rather welcomed) they are, versus how feared they may be. Humans have to eat, so agriculture and the bounty of nature are more important than magic (remember, game adventures and fiction tend to concentrate on power, and therefore on magic and its users and on adventurers and royalty more than the majority of "folk really living in the Realms" would) and fear abundantly-growing vegetables (remember, blights, diseases, poisonings, and natural crop-destroying disasters like storms, early winter weather, mudslides, and volcanic eruptions are all blamed on other deities) a lot less than they do magic (which is important, but not quite as important as food). Advantage Chauntea. The second factor is the deliberate distribution of Mystra's power amongst other deities (Azuth, et al) and among mortals (her Chosen), lessening her "true total" of power. Again, advantage Chauntea. So Chauntea is more essential to the lives of more humans in Faerūn, and thus more powerful - - but by her natural-cycles, nuturing nature a lot more passive and slow-moving. Chauntea can't and doesn't lash out with her power. Mystra can, and (sometimes, especially in Realms-shaking times or when her portfolio is held by a green recent-mortal who's still "learning the ropes") does. Mystra can call up and wield far more power than Chauntea (so is "more powerful" by THAT measure) and is more important among the gods, because all gods use (and dispense to mortals) magic, and Mystra has successfully gained control over magic through the Weave (gods can bypass her to call on natural forces directly only in limited ways, simulated in 2nd Edition by the ability of priests to gain 1st and 2nd level spells without contact with the gods). So Mystra can influence the relative powers of gods in their struggles with each other, by how she limits or augments the specific amount of natural energies specific gods can source, and precisely how they can do so (magic). It's like the difference between a jackhammer and a tree: if you're defending a perfectly flat, flawless asphalt surface, a man with a jackhammer is an immediate threat whom you'll run to prevent first - - even though the roots of the tree, if not severed and the tree prevented from vigorously replacing them, will destroy the asphalt just as thoroughly. I've blathered long enough; I hope this helps. (Saith Ed, creator of Mystra, most of the other deities of Faerūn, Faerūn itself, and divine portfolios.) Kuje, I added that last line in parentheses to Ed's words, but I suggest you include it when reposting to the Boards That Are Not Named, just to underscore the expertise Ed's arguing from, especially for younger gamers who tend to mentally separate "old gaming farts" from any understanding of game concepts and details they may currently be arguing about. :} Ah, well. Back to true Realmslore next time. love to all, THO" |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 03:01 AM | So, without the Weave, Kelemvor couldn't even access magic in Realmspace (nor could any other god that didn't use the Shadow Weave). Without the Weave... Bad things happen. There's no controlled form of magic - and in D&D, the ability for the gods to wield their power on Abeir-Toril is expressed in the form of magic. |
| msatran05-24-07, 04:50 AM | Guys, a Kraken really is just a bigger squid. It's still funny. Let's face it. Squids are funny. There's not a lot about squids that isn't funny. Calling it a Kraken just means that it's got social issues. Oh, and the Rotting Man is no longer a Chosen. He's a floating energy essence. YES. IT IS RETARDED! But that doesn't mean it isn't so. |
| PharaunMizzrym05-24-07, 04:56 AM | Kelemvor could always adopt Incarnum as his own system (with a few changes from core incarnum). But I get your point. Hard to argue with Ed who created the whole world. Like arguing with God. Though that could work, if Asmodeus volunteers his services. He's the D&D equivalent of OJ's lawyers. |
| PharaunMizzrym05-24-07, 04:57 AM | Why did that happen to The Rotting Man? Which book was that in? |
| MaskedOne05-24-07, 10:51 AM | So, without the Weave, Kelemvor couldn't even access magic in Realmspace (nor could any other god that didn't use the Shadow Weave). Without the Weave... Bad things happen. There's no controlled form of magic - and in D&D, the ability for the gods to wield their power on Abeir-Toril is expressed in the form of magic. No controlled form of magic for whatever length of time it takes people to learn how to wield one of the bypasses, but yeah lack of the Weave is a messy thing. |
| msatran05-24-07, 12:09 PM | Apparently, in one of the priests books, he exploded. I haven't dealt with that yet, I'm too busy dealing with the consequences of said explosion. He is now apparently a floating energy essence that has no body and no significant consciousness. |
| zerodeviere05-24-07, 01:18 PM | Quote: Originally Posted by zerodeviere they act more like petty tyrants than people of virtue and goodness. Do you have examples to support this statement? well there are many like in spellfire trilogy where The Simbul wants to kill the weilder of spellfire simply because she feels threatened. but its common in all books that contain the chosen that they do what they want when they want even in places like Cormyr simply because there is noone more powerful to stop them. Then they claim they they are subject to mystras commands and that is more important that the laws of a kingdom and that alone gives them the right. But if you examine it Fzoul could easily use the same excuse... im not evil im just doing Banes will. Mystra can't control other peoples followers so she has her Chosen out doing it in her place apparently. Any way you look at it Forcing people to do what you want them to because you know you are more powerful weather you are being Divinely led or not is the act of a tyrant. As a good person you work within the laws of other lands when it will help that land to do so weather you are chaotic or not. You can always chose to just go banging down doors where evil hides even knowing that with a nudge the lawful guards would help you too,but the reality of chosing to go it without getting city guard help will make them despise you not respect you like everyone seems to do with the chosen. kind of like the police and the feds they cant get along even though both stand for justice ( or are supposed to anyways ) but thats because they feel they are each more right than the others and would share information or work together. sorry to much going on and on and on. but thats my opinion. |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 02:00 PM | Kelemvor could always adopt Incarnum as his own system (with a few changes from core incarnum). But I get your point. Hard to argue with Ed who created the whole world. Like arguing with God. Though that could work, if Asmodeus volunteers his services. He's the D&D equivalent of OJ's lawyers. You're most certainly right. As Ed noted, deities (and mortals) COULD try to find alternate methods of magic. The question is, can they learn to master those methods of magic, from scratch, before they die? With no priests being granted ANY spells, with Kelemvor having no ability to actually work miracles in Abeir-Toril, his divinity is going to plummet like woah. (As will every other gods', with the possible exceptions of Shar and Chauntea, and maybe Selune, since they are all integral to Realmspace, partially like Mystra.) If the Weave was actually destroyed, I would consider it as close to an apocalypse as Faerun is likely to ever have. Widepsread wild magic zones, dead magic zones, magical beasts just dying out altogether, priests without power, earthquakes, storms of fire, raw magic just tearing through the land... I am almost certain Shar would come out on top, since she's the only deity in canon that has a definite alternate method of accessing magic (the Shadow Weave). Maybe, just maybe, Selune could pull off picking up the remnants of the previous Weave and construct one (since she helped create the original Mystryl/Weave in the first place). |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 02:03 PM | well there are many like in spellfire trilogy where The Simbul wants to kill the weilder of spellfire simply because she feels threatened. but its common in all books that contain the chosen that they do what they want when they want even in places like Cormyr simply because there is noone more powerful to stop them. Then they claim they they are subject to mystras commands and that is more important that the laws of a kingdom and that alone gives them the right. But if you examine it Fzoul could easily use the same excuse... im not evil im just doing Banes will. Mystra can't control other peoples followers so she has her Chosen out doing it in her place apparently. Any way you look at it Forcing people to do what you want them to because you know you are more powerful weather you are being Divinely led or not is the act of a tyrant. As a good person you work within the laws of other lands when it will help that land to do so weather you are chaotic or not. You can always chose to just go banging down doors where evil hides even knowing that with a nudge the lawful guards would help you too,but the reality of chosing to go it without getting city guard help will make them despise you not respect you like everyone seems to do with the chosen. kind of like the police and the feds they cant get along even though both stand for justice ( or are supposed to anyways ) but thats because they feel they are each more right than the others and would share information or work together. sorry to much going on and on and on. but thats my opinion. When it comes to religious doctrines, and the carrying out of them, absolutely anyone can look like a tyrant, depending on where you're looking from. |
| Bonzai05-24-07, 02:11 PM | As to the rotting man, he is still alive, and presumably still a chosen, though was weakened in the events that occured in Lady of Poison. Which brings me to the only problems I have with the chosen.... a lack of Stats for the non-Mystra ones. I would love to use the Rotting Man in an upcoming campaign, but could use some more stats. |
| Stigger05-24-07, 02:27 PM | Also note that the Chosen have a considerable amount of authority in some unlikely places due to old and moldering agreements and the like, particularly Elminster... as far as I'm aware, he pulled rank on Vangey a time or two due to some of those old bits of mostly hinted-at-but-not-fully-revealed lore. Same case for him in Waterdeep as I recall... and he's probably not the only one who has things like that floating around in their pasts. Not sure why a chaotic of any stripe would give a damn about working within another country's laws though... that doesn't make much sense really. Doesn't really work with their general worldview. |
| Flicker05-24-07, 02:31 PM | So, without the Weave, Kelemvor couldn't even access magic in Realmspace (nor could any other god that didn't use the Shadow Weave). Without the Weave... Bad things happen. There's no controlled form of magic - and in D&D, the ability for the gods to wield their power on Abeir-Toril is expressed in the form of magic. Sorry Dan, I don't quite agree, certainly bad things would happen, but the assumption seems to be that there would be a status quo. Certainly i agree that Shar would likely be top dog for a while based on the principle of 'ahead of the game'. But who is to say that somebody wouldn't just adopt the portfolio, there is precedence after all ie the changes between Myrkul/Cyric/Bane/Bhaal/Lleira and the shifting of all the other parts of gods portfolios. Granted, I think its unlikely, far more likely that one of the other gods of magic would step into the breach, or perhaps a mortal could be elevated, Elminster anyone? (yes i know he's immortal), again we have precedent with Midnight. Besides, aren't we forgetting 1 thing, 1) something has to destroy Mystra??? So if it isn't Ao, its not going to be from the realms, after all she restricted the use to prevent it repeating, what could it be?? not likely that she gets knocked down in traffic!!! What i'm getting at, is even if a DM said, i know i'll kill Mystra, what do you do to do it? Perhaps a magical plague that kills spell casters would it be in Talona's interests for that to happen? Personally I think not, in fact I'd go so far as to say that the gods would actively work to prevent such a thing if it got to crisis point. Thoughts anyone? |
| GothicDan05-24-07, 02:36 PM | Certainly i agree that Shar would likely be top dog for a while based on the principle of 'ahead of the game'. But who is to say that somebody wouldn't just adopt the portfolio, there is precedence after all ie the changes between Myrkul/Cyric/Bane/Bhaal/Lleira and the shifting of all the other parts of gods portfolios. We are talking about if the Weave was DESTROYED. As in, destroyed. Gone. No more Weave, no more portfolio. All of the deities you mentioned were not their portfolios incarnate. The Weave is a living, breathing element of the reality of Realmspace. It would be equivalent to destroying the Positive Energy Plane or the Negative Energy Plane, and expecting the Gods of Death and Life to not be affected by it (and by extension, everyone else). |
| Alediran05-24-07, 02:42 PM | Personally I think not, in fact I'd go so far as to say that the gods would actively work to prevent such a thing if it got to crisis point. Exactly, most gods, even evil ones, like bane who wants to conquer not destroy would work to avoid the destruction of Realmspace, that's why Shar has no true allies. |
| PharaunMizzrym05-24-07, 02:47 PM | His stats should have been in The Unapproachable East. He and his machinations were mentioned in a good amount of the book, yet he was not detailed himself, making it harder to use his area of Faerun to the fullest effect. Im not even sure if the book even calls him the Chosen of Talona. It would make an interesting quest for an evil group of adventurers to restore him to his former self. Have to consider that...:ghosted: |
| msatran05-24-07, 05:16 PM | Actually, I have a bunch of good adventurers trying to stop the number 2 guy in the church from stealing his power and becoming the Chosen of Talona himself. Though I admit, the sick and twisted idea of Volodni Cleric 20 and his goal of steal the Rotting Man's power and unleashing Blightspawned Spellwarped Woodling Tarrasque upon the world does kind of make the evil DM in me snicker. Yeah. I just said it. Blightspawned Spellwarped Woodling Tarrasque Read it and weep. |
| msatran05-24-07, 05:20 PM | And just in case you were wondering... Blightspawned Spellwarped Woodling Tarrasque CR 25 Neutral Evil Colossal aberration (augmented magical beast) Init +7; Senses Listen +25, Spot +25; darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent AC 44, touch 5, flat-footed 41; Dodge hp 1037 (48 HD); DR 15/epic and 5/slashing, regeneration 40, Toughness (5) Immune ability damage, critical hits, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep, stunning Resist SR 59 Fort +41, Ref +30, Will +20 Weakness vulnerability to fire Speed 20 ft. (4 squares) Melee bite +61 (4d8+21/18-20/x3) or bite +61 (4d8+21/18-20/x3) and 2 horns +56 melee (1d10+10) and 2 claws +56 melee (1d12+10) and tail slap +56 melee (3d8+10) Space 30 ft.; Reach 20 ft. Base Atk +48; Grp +83 Atk Options augmented critical, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Enlarge Breath, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Multigrab, Power Attack Special Actions frightful presence, improved grab, rush, swallow whole Spell-Like Abilities (CL 48th): 3/day -- speak with plants 1/day -- animate plants, command plants, control plants, entangle, summon nature's ally II, summon nature's ally IV, summon nature's ally VI, summon nature's ally VIII, summon nature's ally IX Abilities Str 53, Dex 18, Con 41, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 10 SQ carapace, plant traits, spell absorption Feats Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness (5) Skills Hide -12, Jump +15, Listen +25, Search +11, Spot +25, Survival +14 Augmented Critical (Ex): The blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18-20 and deals triple damage on a successful critical hit. Blight Touch (Ex): Supernatural Disease, DC 39, incubation period 1d6 days, damage 1d4 temporary constitution and 1d4 temporary charisma. Unlike normal diseases, the effects of Blight Touch continue until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies), Charisma 0 (Becoming a Blightspawned Creature if the character qualifies), or receives Cure Disease or Similar Magic. Carapace (Ex): The blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque's armorlike carapace is so tough and reflective that it can deflect all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. Any such effect has a 30% chance of reflecting back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature's spell resistance. Frightful Presence (Su): The blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Each affected creature must succeed on a DC 35 Will save or become shaken, and that condition lasts as long as it remains within 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round. Plant Traits: The blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque is immune to paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep, and stunning. It is not subject to critical hits or mind-affecting effects. The creature has low-light vision. Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque. It regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature's full normal hit points +10 (or 1047 hp). The blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem's cursed wound ability. The blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 1047 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead. If the blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes. (The detached piece dies and decays normally.) The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump. Rush (Ex): Once per minute, the blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque can move at a speed of 150 feet. Swallow Whole (Ex): The blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside the tarrasque, the opponent takes 2d8+8 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the creature's digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 50 points of damage to the tarrasque's digestive tract (AC 25). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque's gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures. Skills: The blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque has a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. Undead Transformation (Su) : Each Month that a blightspawned Spellwarped Woodling Tarrasque spends as a blightspawned, it must succeed at a fortitude save (DC 15 +1/previous saving throw attempted) or die. A blightspawned spellwarped woodling tarrasque that dies in this fashion animates as a juju zombie. |
| allenchan05-24-07, 05:37 PM | maybe you should post that elsewhere, instead of hijacking the thread (like over on the monster forums, since I see quite a few things wrong with it). |
| PharaunMizzrym05-24-07, 06:51 PM | All blightspawn eventually turn into juju zombies. Thats one large juju zombie. |
| Zandilar05-24-07, 07:58 PM | Heya, I am almost certain Shar would come out on top, since she's the only deity in canon that has a definite alternate method of accessing magic (the Shadow Weave). Maybe, just maybe, Selune could pull off picking up the remnants of the previous Weave and construct one (since she helped create the original Mystryl/Weave in the first place). Two things... I believe where the Weave goes, Realmspace follows. Destroy the Weave and destroy Realmspace. Therefore, you're right. Shar comes out on top because she fulfills her goal of annihilation of existence, not because she has access to the Shadow Weave. Secondly, even if it doesn't result in that level of destruction, I think it could be argued that there's a fundamental link between the Weave and the Shadow Weave - while you can destroy portions of the Weave and not effect the Shadow Weave - if you destroyed the entire Weave, the Shadow Weave would disappear too - they are parts of the same system, at least the way Ed described it (with the Weave being the arteries, and the Shadow Weave being veins). |
| Old Sage05-24-07, 08:31 PM | Secondly, even if it doesn't result in that level of destruction, I think it could be argued that there's a fundamental link between the Weave and the Shadow Weave - while you can destroy portions of the Weave and not effect the Shadow Weave - if you destroyed the entire Weave, the Shadow Weave would disappear too - they are parts of the same system, at least the way Ed described it (with the Weave being the arteries, and the Shadow Weave being veins).As Ed said back in late '04 with respect to the relationship between the Weave and Shadow Weave - "To use a slightly clumsy real-world analogy, Mystra is the brain observing and in small ways controlling the heart, the Weave is the heart and the arteries, and the Shadow Weave is the veins." |
| Stigger05-25-07, 11:30 AM | Personally I'd subscribe to the whole of Realmspace being destroyed if the Weave itself were ever destroyed. Not much point to the Realms without magic in my mind as it is... |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 11:42 AM | I think I'd go with wholescale magical chaos that might as well be the Apocalypse, even if it isn't, technically. The Weave is more like a primordial force of nature - like one of our Fundamental Interactions in real life. It suffuses everything, even 'nonmagical' things (just like there are still charged particles in non-magnetized objects). Take away the Electron-Magnetic Interaction and try to tell me that "everything would be okay in the universe." ;) |
| Stigger05-25-07, 11:46 AM | Well, it probably would be okay on a cosmic level, since it probably happened for a good reason, just not from a human perspective. ;) |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 12:08 PM | If it didn't make sense from human perception, and you're asserting that it "probably" did on a cosmic level (referring to the destruction of the Weave, I assume), aren't you asserting that you perceive something that the rest of humanity does not? If you're referring to my physics analogy, and on "cosmic scale" you mean as a product of things we are not aware of... I completely agree. And this is largely why Dan finds much spirituality faulty. :) |
| Stigger05-25-07, 03:00 PM | That was in reference to the physics analogy. Don't quite see how it corresponds to spirituality though. Most of spirituality is a construct we came up with to help us explain the universe, part of that whole pattern finding creature thing we have going on. Its a coping mechanism, and as such doesn't have to be technically true to fulfil its purpose, so long as it helps us sleep better at night. ;) |
| Karsus the Mad05-25-07, 03:24 PM | Personally I'd subscribe to the whole of Realmspace being destroyed if the Weave itself were ever destroyed. Not much point to the Realms without magic in my mind as it is... I think I'd go with wholescale magical chaos that might as well be the Apocalypse, even if it isn't, technically. The Weave is more like a primordial force of nature - like one of our Fundamental Interactions in real life. It suffuses everything, even 'nonmagical' things (just like there are still charged particles in non-magnetized objects). Take away the Electron-Magnetic Interaction and try to tell me that "everything would be okay in the universe." Thankfully magic doesn't depend upon the Weave then....and even more thankfully nothing else requires the Weave to exist.... |
| ShadezofDis05-25-07, 03:27 PM | Thankfully magic doesn't depend upon the Weave then....and even more thankfully nothing else requires the Weave to exist.... Uh oh.... :hides: |
| Stigger05-25-07, 03:33 PM | I know that, its simply the interface for mortals to access magic, but its too much bother to rework the system after such a catastrophic system failure, so I'd be in favor of just chucking it and getting a replacement rather than trying to fix the mess. :D |
| Zandilar05-25-07, 08:07 PM | Heya, Thankfully magic doesn't depend upon the Weave then....and even more thankfully nothing else requires the Weave to exist.... That is not what has been implied. It's not that magic is in everything, surrounds everything, etc... it's that the Weave herself is in everything - that is why Mystra is so important and so powerful. If you take the Weave away, or destroy it, everything that is connected to it ceases to work and is ultimately destroyed. However, I suppose there could be an argument made that the gods of Abeir-Toril would survive the calamity - especially if someone is using the Great Wheel - since the gods live on the Great Wheel, and the Weave is a Realmspace only thing*. The thing is, if that's true - which deities in their right mind would let Mystra/the Weave die, as this would lead to a wholesale destruction of their Faithful? I personally think Ao would step in, and if the current Mystra couldn't be saved, a new Mystra would be born/created/elevated/promoted very quickly. * How that actually works, I don't know - what would happen to mortal planeswalkers? The Weave is in them too, right? Does that mean they bring a part of the weave with them into the planes? Or does a spellcaster of the Realms need to adjust their magic to the planes? If so, why don't they need to learn a whole new way of casting spells? |
| Flicker05-25-07, 08:25 PM | Heya, That is not what has been implied. It's not that magic is in everything, surrounds everything, etc... it's that the Weave herself is in everything - that is why Mystra is so important and so powerful. If you take the Weave away, or destroy it, everything that is connected to it ceases to work and is ultimately destroyed. However, I suppose there could be an argument made that the gods of Abeir-Toril would survive the calamity - especially if someone is using the Great Wheel - since the gods live on the Great Wheel, and the Weave is a Realmspace only thing*. The thing is, if that's true - which deities in their right mind would let Mystra/the Weave die, as this would lead to a wholesale destruction of their Faithful? I personally think Ao would step in, and if the current Mystra couldn't be saved, a new Mystra would be born/created/elevated/promoted very quickly. * How that actually works, I don't know - what would happen to mortal planeswalkers? The Weave is in them too, right? Does that mean they bring a part of the weave with them into the planes? Or does a spellcaster of the Realms need to adjust their magic to the planes? If so, why don't they need to learn a whole new way of casting spells? Hang on, we're back to my point, if Mystra is the weave and vice versa its like saying i know i'll destroy space or chorlophyll or sugar. Come on, be serious all threats to the weave so far have been a lack of control (i believe Mystra acts as a regulator). Its like somebody on earth saying, i know i'll launch every nuke, sure earth will suffer but you aren't going to wipe out 'everything' and if the weave is in 'everything' then the weave is in the gods, even Shar etc, who for 1 second might go yeah I won, just before she goes 'oh ****!!!!!' What i'm getting at, is from a rational DM stance trying to say there's no weave in realmspace is like saying there's nothing. I disagree that there would just be magical chaos, without the weave, what holds Faerun in the crystal sphere, what makes the moons orbit, what makes the gods live. I'd say the weave is FR and vice versa, hence why Mystra is so powerful, its a focused power of a particular thing, sort of like the difference between a laser and a knife but its abstract, I think she realises without her, nothing will exist. |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 08:45 PM | Its like somebody on earth saying, i know i'll launch every nuke, sure earth will suffer but you aren't going to wipe out 'everything' As a physicist (or almost) here speaking, I'll have to step in on this. Everything of substantial human civilization WOULD be destroyed. The atmosphere would be barren. Temperatures would sky rockets. A new ice age could be caused... For all purposes, everything as far as humanity is concerned would be destroyed. And in Faerun, without worshippers, all deities die. As I said, only Shar would probably remain, since she's the darkness before creation personified. What i'm getting at, is from a rational DM stance trying to say there's no weave in realmspace is like saying there's nothing. Who said anything different? Ed Greenwood - the default DM of FR, really - said what would happen IF the Weave was destroyed. He did not say it was likely. |
| XHereticX05-25-07, 09:24 PM | That was in reference to the physics analogy. Don't quite see how it corresponds to spirituality though. Most of spirituality is a construct we came up with to help us explain the universe, part of that whole pattern finding creature thing we have going on. Its a coping mechanism, and as such doesn't have to be technically true to fulfil its purpose, so long as it helps us sleep better at night. ;) Despite all of Religion's faults, you have to admit this. Spirituality gives men a purpose in life, and a sense that they are more than just a chance of Quantum Physics and are insignificant in the greater outlook. Sprituality makes human beings feel important knowing that there is a greater power out there that has a purpose in mind for you and that you are actually worth something. Despite admitting the logic of modern science, I continue to believe in higher powers due to the fact that a universe that exists just because it does and the fact that life is nothing more than a coincidence makes the universe seem...bleak. Just read Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life and you will know the significance of religion in giving men purpose. There is a word we call people without a purpose, they are called Emos... |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 10:33 PM | I find absolutely no comfort in trying to believe in something that would be good IF it was true, with no actual direct evidence of it (evidence meaning something that does not have a more generalized and universal explanation that explains things in more depth). That's almost like truly believing that someone loves you, when you've never met that person, talked to that person directly, or having been told by that person you're loved. That's called delusional. |
| XHereticX05-25-07, 10:38 PM | I find absolutely no comfort in trying to believe in something that would be good IF it was true, with no actual direct evidence of it (evidence meaning something that does not have a more generalized and universal explanation that explains things in more depth). That's almost like truly believing that someone loves you, when you've never met that person, talked to that person directly, or having been told by that person you're loved. That's called delusional. Lemme guess, your atheist. Thank God for Atheism!:D Well, actually, unlike some people, I actually DO believe god exists. I have found a perfectly logical way to balance him with modern science. I do believe in physics and all that stuff, I just say that god is the force behind it all. And I take the Bible as a book of Metaphors, which makes a lot more sense if you look at it that way. It is perfectly plausible to have religion and science perfectly complement each other with no need for conflict. One is for the mind, the other, the soul. |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 10:57 PM | Which is fine, if you believe in a soul. Being scientific and a bit of an empiricist, I do not, since we've seen no conclusive data to suggest the existence of one. I worry the most about what we see, not what we wish might be true. Navel-gazing for decades in a monastary may make you feel better about yourself, but it won't impact other people. And, as far as I'm concerned, if you're not going to be fully dedicated to the world around you, in some way or form - if you're not going to live to love, live to prosper, live to survive - what's the point in living at all? Did I also mention I was a bit of an Epicureanist? *Plays with new hair cut.* |
| XHereticX05-25-07, 11:05 PM | Which is fine, if you believe in a soul. Being scientific and a bit of an empiricist, I do not, since we've seen no conclusive data to suggest the existence of one. I worry the most about what we see, not what we wish might be true. Navel-gazing for decades in a monastary may make you feel better about yourself, but it won't impact other people. And, as far as I'm concerned, if you're not going to be fully dedicated to the world around you, in some way or form - if you're not going to live to love, live to prosper, live to survive - what's the point in living at all? Did I also mention I was a bit of an Epicureanist? *Plays with new hair cut.* Hey, I haven't gone to church in ages. Plus, I don't think that isolation really is that much of a bad thing. The world is corrupt and sinful, and if you are not careful you may bite off more than you can chew. In reality, isolation and self-sufference is a painful but effective way to remain pure and achieve enlightenment. Hey, that is how most of our great prophets were made. I personally have some very heretical beliefs. I take regular christianity and augment it with wisdom from almost every sensable religion I can think of and add to it some crazy beliefs that I and only I have. I believe that all religions inevidably lead to the same conclusions if you look at it detailedly and worship the same power. I am not so much a christian as I am a religionist, I believe in the power of religion. |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 11:09 PM | It may sound weird, but I tend to have even less respect (spiritually) for people who are general 'religionists' or 'spiritualists' or 'nondenominational.' It's almost like, "You're halfway there (to atheism). And you still refuse to take the blind fold off. I'm done with you!" Nothing personal, of course! |
| XHereticX05-25-07, 11:16 PM | It may sound weird, but I tend to have even less respect (spiritually) for people who are general 'religionists' or 'spiritualists' or 'nondenominational.' It's almost like, "You're halfway there (to atheism). And you still refuse to take the blind fold off. I'm done with you!" Nothing personal, of course! Bah, my friend is Atheist and he gives me that kind of crap every day. For all the openmindedness Atheists are supposed to have, you sure don't have any tolerance for those with a tolerance for all religions. Oh, there is logic in Atheism I admit, but it had one major flaw and that is relevence. The only purpose I see in mind for Atheism is to destroy the beliefs of others and force them upon the bleak entity that is a coincidentual and totally irrelevent existance. For gods sake, we don't need any more emos than we already have. A common argument my friend uses for Atheism is, "If god can do anything, can he create a rock which he can't lift." |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 11:24 PM | Who said I was openminded? I have very strong ethics. I do not believe in morality. I do not believe that anything is good or evil, right or wrong. I do think that certain paths are more preferrable than others, and I will fight to the last to support what I want. I never said I wanted religious freedom. I wish everyone was atheist. Sun Elf is I. ;) Oh, there is logic in Atheism I admit, but it had one major flaw and that is relevence. The only purpose I see in mind for Atheism is to destroy the beliefs of others and force them upon the bleak entity that is a coincidentual and totally irrelevent existance. For gods sake, we don't need any more emos than we already have. You can be completely non-emo without needing to believe in a higher power. I take great joy in the mere ability for humanity to achieve greatness, to excel and become powerful. I became "un-emo" (was once very, very depressed, about 6 years ago) when I realized the sheer possibilities of what I could become and achieve if I just wanted to hard enough. Nietzsche was actually arguing against nihilism and 'emo' in his "God is dead" bit. He was disgusted with the downward spiral of society that had lost their passion for life just because they had given up on spirituality. |
| Lord Karsus05-25-07, 11:26 PM | -I said it in the other thread, and I'll say it here: Cut out the CoC-prohibited conversation...:eek: |
| XHereticX05-25-07, 11:28 PM | Who said I was openminded? I have very strong ethics. I do not believe in morality. I do not believe that anything is good or evil, right or wrong. I do think that certain paths are more preferrable than others, and I will fight to the last to support what I want. I never said I wanted religious freedom. I wish everyone was atheist. Sun Elf is I. ;) So bascically you are a Boneheaded, souless, nihilistic, scientificly analytical soldier fanatic who would take over the world and throw all religious people into concentration camps unless they convert to Atheism. In short, you are the Spanish Inquisition with the removal of god, goodness, and faith from your vocabulary. Thats cool, "I fart in your general direction.":D |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 11:32 PM | I'll stop. But only so I can engage in further conversations in the future, up until the last moment when it seems like we've broken the CoC too much. At least we were being mostly civil! *Runs and hides.* |
| XHereticX05-25-07, 11:33 PM | Ok, I'll stop too, just because Karsus is my superior and I am compelled to obey. |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 11:35 PM | .. It was civil until he started calling me names and farting at me! LK, whip some respect into your inferior before I have to. *Corellon voice.* |
| Lord Karsus05-25-07, 11:37 PM | -Heretic, don't fart at Dan. It's not civil. -Good job. Here's a $5 bonus. Don't spend it all in one place. |
| XHereticX05-25-07, 11:39 PM | Hehe, I'll remember to do it again |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 11:53 PM | -Good job. Here's a $5 bonus. Don't spend it all in one place. Greater Gods can react small text. We'll discuss this at the Spire, Mad One.... |
| XHereticX05-25-07, 11:55 PM | Don't worry Karsus, I will make sure to grab my buddies in the Nine Hells to back you up. What is there to fear from some gay elfin god anyway:P |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 12:10 AM | We were going to have a civil debate in the Spire, where all powers are equalized and neutral, and where only the Rilmani hold jurisdiction. Your Baatefic allies would be spikey puppy dogs. |
| Lord Karsus05-26-07, 12:25 AM | -I say we play Faerūnian Risk. I call Black! |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 12:34 AM | No, -I- call black. I'm older. |
| Alediran05-26-07, 01:08 AM | I'm older than both of you and I'll take green. |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 01:23 AM | Okay! Then I get black... You get green. |
| Zandilar05-26-07, 02:01 AM | Heya, i know i'll launch every nuke, sure earth will suffer but you aren't going to wipe out 'everything' and if the weave is in 'everything' then the weave is in the gods, even Shar etc, who for 1 second might go yeah I won, just before she goes 'oh ****!!!!!' That is exactly what Shar wants. :) |
| XHereticX05-26-07, 10:18 AM | Heya, That is exactly what Shar wants. :) Bah Shar, the only true god of nihilism is Tharizdun. |
| ShadezofDis05-26-07, 02:29 PM | I might be older still! I'd take yellow anyways though :p And I'm agnostic. Why? Because XHereticX don't know and Dan don't know and I haven't heard anyone who actually knows so I keep an open mind. :) As for the Weave thang, I think there would be a large amount of failing enchantments, a huge amount of magical chaos (blunted, to an extent, by the Gods and others). Further, since I already have my "True Magic is a carcinogen and the Weave filters out the carcinogens" theory then the BIG differences would be; Mortals have to find a new "filter" for magic, they'd be able to find a system to tap "true magic" easy enough but using "true magic" would burn them to a crisp (VERY quickly, haven't thought out a system for it yet but it'd be terrible to cast using "true magic"). An example of such a filter would be Dark Sun's magic system (or, that's my opinion anyhow) but there are certainly other ways to do it (not that I've thought them out). Gods would be able to use magic, but it'd give them cancer, it'd be like smoking or something (and this includes granting mortals spells, though granting spells wouldn't hurt the god as much as casting a spell would and the god can chose how much to "filter" for the mortal) Ummm. . . that sums it up for right now :) |
| ShadezofDis05-26-07, 02:30 PM | Bah Shar, the only true god of nihilism is Tharizdun. Blasphemer!:nonono: |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 04:02 PM | Shar is teh r0x, mmk? |
| Lord Karsus05-26-07, 04:23 PM | -Damn it, I already called black. -You know, Faerūnian Risk actually sounds fun. We should order MT to whip up a nifty FR Risk map. |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 04:45 PM | There was someone who, awhile ago, was working on that project... No clue who it was. |
| Karsus the Mad05-26-07, 05:16 PM | -Damn it, I already called black. -You know, Faerūnian Risk actually sounds fun. We should order MT to whip up a nifty FR Risk map. You could easily use the FR Region Map in the FRCS. How would magic work tho':confused: A series of spell cards? |
| Lord Karsus05-26-07, 05:34 PM | You could easily use the FR Region Map in the FRCS. How would magic work tho':confused: A series of spell cards? -Hmm...Give me a little time to think about that. I have to work tomorrow, so that will give me plenty of time. ;) |
| GothicDan05-26-07, 05:59 PM | I think each Region should provide benefits, and have a Region Card, like Army Number, Specials, etc. Then each round, you'll collect your resources. And there should be heroes, too, which is where spellcasting will come in. Actually, I'm thinking of something a lot like the Heroscape game, only with more soldiers. |
| Lord Karsus05-26-07, 08:22 PM | -Hmm...Perhaps this deserves it's own thread. Risk isn't the problem with the Chosen. Or, maybe it is. |
| BrennonGoldeye05-26-07, 09:48 PM | Enough of the equality in stupidity and brilliance of Theism and Atheism(don't test this kiddies). These folk know the truth. Lucky them. Move on.;) |
| Flicker05-27-07, 12:07 PM | i'll be Red, but only cos i'm English and we can have an empire again ;) oh and I don't think Shar is a nihilist, yeh, she wants the world of darkness, but I don't think she's insane, I see her as more of a Sauron type not a kill everything person, I think she's too vain for that. |
| Stigger05-27-07, 12:55 PM | You know, I made a map of Faerun once at a 15mile hex grid scale for Europa wargaming rules once... got destroyed when I moved though unfortunately. Was a fun little project really. |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 01:23 PM | oh and I don't think Shar is a nihilist, yeh, she wants the world of darkness, but I don't think she's insane, I see her as more of a Sauron type not a kill everything person, I think she's too vain for that. You're actually getting Shar all wrong... Sauron = Bane. That's why he's LE. It's no rumor that she wants the total annihilation of everything - that's largely what defines her. She was born in a time or primordial nothingness and darkness, when nothing existed... And that's how she wants it again. |
| XHereticX05-27-07, 02:02 PM | Shar is actually more like Morgoth than Sauron. Morgoth wants to corrupt the world and sink it into darkness. Anyway, Tharizdun>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Shar any day:P |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 02:04 PM | You know, mathematicalyl speaking, I don't think what you said makes any sense. > would. So would >>. But not >>>>>(so on). |
| XHereticX05-27-07, 02:06 PM | You know, mathematicalyl speaking, I don't think what you said makes any sense. > would. So would >>. But not >>>>>(so on). You spell MATHAMATICALLY wrong. |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 02:09 PM | So did you. It's mathematically. Mine was obviously a mistype. Yours is just plain wrong. ;) |
| XHereticX05-27-07, 02:10 PM | So did you. It's mathematically. Mine was obviously a mistype. Yours is just plain wrong. ;) hey, I was only off by one letter:P |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 02:13 PM | But it was a very important one! |
| Lord Karsus05-27-07, 07:00 PM | -Don't be so judgmental. |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 07:03 PM | I see you've learned how to spell! Maybe, one day you'll be able to read and write Seldruin, young one... |
| Stigger05-28-07, 12:06 PM | You're both sitting at the kiddies table where I'm concerned, so pipe down you two, the old man is trying to sleep. :tongue: |
| XHereticX05-28-07, 04:09 PM | You're both sitting at the kiddies table where I'm concerned, so pipe down you two, the old man is trying to sleep. :tongue: "Takes Bass Guitar and blasts a chord into stigger's ear":P |
| Lord Karsus05-28-07, 05:41 PM | -All right, one rule that all of my minions must abide by is not to disturb Stigger when he's getting ready for his nap. It's bad publicity. |
| XHereticX05-28-07, 05:51 PM | -All right, one rule that all of my minions must abide by is not to disturb Stigger when he's getting ready for his nap. It's bad publicity. As you wish my lord, but sometime you overstep your bounds. I have very powerful friends in the lower planes and I would advise you to keep on my good side:) |
| Lord Karsus05-28-07, 06:04 PM | -I would advise you not to do that. Never again, never do what you just did. |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 06:15 PM | LK... How can you be both an Arcanist and a High Mage? |
| Lord Karsus05-28-07, 06:30 PM | -I'm that good. |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 06:33 PM | ... at lying. |
| Lord Karsus05-28-07, 06:40 PM | -It's not my fault your capability of percieving reality can't pick up my greatness. |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 06:41 PM | Perceiving. |
| Karsus the Mad05-28-07, 06:44 PM | LK... How can you be both an Arcanist and a High Mage? He has levels in High Mage, I have levels in Netherese arcanist. We got screwed with the conversion to 3.5:nonono: |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 06:45 PM | To have levels in Elven High Mage, you must be an Elf! |
| Karsus the Mad05-28-07, 06:46 PM | To have levels in Elven High Mage, you must be an Elf! Race matters not to those of such greatness... |
| Lord Karsus05-28-07, 06:49 PM | Perceiving. -I knew something looked wrong. |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 06:50 PM | Race matters not to those of such greatness... Yes it does!!! *Shows him Races of Faerun.* See? SEE? |
| Karsus the Mad05-28-07, 07:17 PM | Yes it does!!! *Shows him Races of Faerun.* See? SEE? Ya had to go get technical all over me didn't you?:cool: *Shows Lost Empires of Faerun* If Ioulaum can keep the benefits of his Netherese arcanist levels despite nolonger meeting the racial prerequisites, LK can be a High Mage despite nolonger meeting the prerequisites anymore:pbbbtt: Epic transform spells are fun... |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 07:20 PM | But Karsus was never an Elf to begin with! None of his parts! |
| Karsus the Mad05-28-07, 07:22 PM | But Karsus was never an Elf to begin with! None of his parts! The joys of game designers not including "born as" in racial requirements;):evillaugh |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 07:23 PM | Hm. Are there any actual rules for what happens if you no longer meet the prereqs started in Prestige Class levels you've taken? |
| Zandilar05-28-07, 07:34 PM | Heya, Hm. Are there any actual rules for what happens if you no longer meet the prereqs started in Prestige Class levels you've taken? It ususally goes along the lines of losing all class features, or something. I'd leave it up to the DM, and as DM I'd say "well fine, use everything you've got, but you can't advance any further" - of course, if an ability seemed specific to the required (and no longer met) race, I'd make them lose the use of that as well. |
| Karsus the Mad05-28-07, 07:36 PM | Hm. Are there any actual rules for what happens if you no longer meet the prereqs started in Prestige Class levels you've taken? I haven't looked up rules that often in ages. I remember that if you nolonger meet the prerequisites for feats, you lose the ability to use the feat (as well as anything that has the feat as a prerequisite, including PrC's, etc), but that doesn't apply to racial requirements. The only thing I can find is that you must meet the requirements for a PrC to take the 1st level. Other than that it doesn't say. Which is weird, given the various transformation magics available. I would assume one would lose the PrC if they didn't meet ALL the requirements, and as a DM that's how I'd rule it, but I can't find any rules that state such. WHOO HOO! I'm going to be a high mage/Netherese arcanist/ beholder mage! |
| Lord Karsus05-28-07, 08:57 PM | WHOO HOO! I'm going to be a high mage/Netherese arcanist/ beholder mage! -First, let's find our lost brother...:( |
| Karsus the Mad05-28-07, 09:02 PM | -First, let's find our lost brother...:( Of course...we must have our priorities afterall... . . . . . . . . . THEN Karsus will be a high mage/Netherese arcanist/beholder mage! |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 09:18 PM | If I didn't like Karsus the character so much, I'd help you guys. I'll stick over here. With the pretty elf boys, kthnxbye. |
| Lord Karsus05-28-07, 09:20 PM | Of course...we must have our priorities afterall... . . . . . . . . . THEN Karsus will be a high mage/Netherese arcanist/beholder mage! -For that fact, I will double my search. |
| MaskedOne05-28-07, 10:58 PM | As you wish my lord, but sometime you overstep your bounds. I have very powerful friends in the lower planes and I would advise you to keep on my good side:) *Blend of mortal and divine voice* No pup, you might have allies in the lower planes who out of varying degrees of self interest will occasionally deign to waste their time and energy on a foolish mortal but you don't have friends there and your allies will not be suffered to interfere unless you can trick Karsus into following you out of my reach. *more mortal voice* LK, I expect the impertinent puppies that work for you to forget minor things like manners and self-preservation when dealing with me (oddly, they generally don't so perhaps I should improve my description of two of them). For all that I can smash all of them and the nations they hail from, I'm still a servant of Lady Magic and they might expect you to save their scrawny hides. However, when did you start taking on half-trained poor excuses for apprentices, that also have the utter gall to threaten you directly, as Hands? |
| GothicDan05-29-07, 12:18 AM | This is why I've brought up his recent actions for review by the Circles... |
| MaskedOne05-29-07, 12:48 AM | Interesting. The Srinshee and Amlauril know my council. I will be absent as the last time I encountered High Magi in quantity, I nearly gave Corellon cause to be annoyed with me. Sorry but some of your comrades shouldn't be. Convey my regards to the eldest Durothil present and remind said elf that their house still owes me a great deal of wine. |
| GothicDan05-29-07, 01:14 AM | You're speaking to a Durothil, of course! I have some nice Sembian Red, here... |
| Stigger05-29-07, 04:22 AM | Pipe down you whippersnappers... *goes off grumbling about insolent youth* |
| GothicDan05-29-07, 02:19 PM | Stigger, you're not even an elf! How can you be that old? |
| Zevox05-29-07, 03:11 PM | Shar is actually more like Morgoth than Sauron. Morgoth wants to corrupt the world and sink it into darkness. Morgoth, like Shar? Oh no, not at all. He wanted to corrupt the world, true, so he could control it. His purview within the world was all things evil and dark, so covering the world with such corruption would help give him control of it and take it away from the Valar (for instance, recall how his corrupting the rivers was driving away Ulmo's power from them). He didn't want to destroy the world - he helped create it, even, if you recall the Music of the Ainur - he just wanted to have power over it, to bend it to his will, just as Eru had power over and a plan for his creations. Shar actually wants to destroy the world - and everything else for that matter - to return existence to nothingness. Zevox |
| Lord Karsus05-29-07, 04:49 PM | However, when did you start taking on half-trained poor excuses for apprentices, that also have the utter gall to threaten you directly, as Hands? -It was starting to get a little dull, what, with all of my Hands blindly obeying me and all. So, I decided to make a little excitement. Mystra did the same if I am not mistaken. A few of her Chosen were rabble-rousers, too. Stigger, you're not even an elf! How can you be that old? -True, Stigger isn't an Elf. That raises the question, "Just what is he, then?" |
| Karsus the Mad05-29-07, 07:28 PM | No pup, you might have allies in the lower planes who out of varying degrees of self interest will occasionally deign to waste their time and energy on a foolish mortal but you don't have friends there and your allies will not be suffered to interfere unless you can trick Karsus into following you out of my reach. *more mortal voice* Hey. Karsus doesn't interfere with your work, don't interfere with ours. Let the Tripartite Karsi deal with their own employees as they deem appropriate. Frankly, you insult us/me, by even suggesting we can be "tricked". Honestly, you think so low of us? Any "trickery" is by our whim. |
| Stigger05-29-07, 08:05 PM | For a cabbage, I am ancient... for a mountain I have not even begun in years... for a Stigger, I'm just right. :tongue: As to what I am... well, that is a good question. One I don't wish to answer, but a good question nonetheless. Wouldn't want the rest of you getting inferiority complexes or anything... ;) :D |
| BrennonGoldeye05-29-07, 10:17 PM | You're both sitting at the kiddies table where I'm concerned, so pipe down you two, the old man is trying to sleep. :tongue: Amen. We might need less than you whippersnappers, but we prefer quality. "Takes Bass Guitar and blasts a chord into stigger's ear":P I advise you put away the sonics. Some of us have played for quite awhile. ;) As you wish my lord, but sometime you overstep your bounds. I have very powerful friends in the lower planes and I would advise you to keep on my good side:) See upcoming quote by Masked. :cool: LK... How can you be both an Arcanist and a High Mage? He borrowed a bit of tissue. I always wondered why.:eek: -I'm that good. Yet not good enough to remember. Humans, no matter how they lengthen their lives, their brains aren't quite wired correctly....:rolleyes: *Blend of mortal and divine voice* No pup, you might have allies in the lower planes who out of varying degrees of self interest will occasionally deign to waste their time and energy on a foolish mortal but you don't have friends there and your allies will not be suffered to interfere unless you can trick Karsus into following you out of my reach. *more mortal voice* LK, I expect the impertinent puppies that work for you to forget minor things like manners and self-preservation when dealing with me (oddly, they generally don't so perhaps I should improve my description of two of them). For all that I can smash all of them and the nations they hail from, I'm still a servant of Lady Magic and they might expect you to save their scrawny hides. However, when did you start taking on half-trained poor excuses for apprentices, that also have the utter gall to threaten you directly, as Hands? See previous reference to above quote.:cool: For a cabbage, I am ancient... for a mountain I have not even begun in years... for a Stigger, I'm just right. :tongue: As to what I am... well, that is a good question. One I don't wish to answer, but a good question nonetheless. Wouldn't want the rest of you getting inferiority complexes or anything... ;) :D I still feel like I am old for a Brennon...:bored: ;) :P ;) |
| MaskedOne05-29-07, 11:02 PM | Hey. Karsus doesn't interfere with your work, don't interfere with ours. Let the Tripartite Karsi deal with their own employees as they deem appropriate. Frankly, you insult us/me, by even suggesting we can be "tricked". Honestly, you think so low of us? Any "trickery" is by our whim. I did not suggest you could be tricked. I stated that tricking you was the only way he'd get you in reach of his allies, allies whom I have a vested interest in keeping out of this affair. No where is there any deliberate implication that he is actually capable of decieving you. There is a difference between knowing what to do and being capable of doing it. Nor have I, yet, chosen to handle your employee directly. I have stated that I will not suffer his allies to interfere in this matter. If that complicates his plans then he needs stronger allies or the ability to stand alone. Either way, his allies aren't your employees and barring their path does fall within the parameters of the mandate that was given to me by Mystril and re-affirmed by both of her successors. Gothic: There's more than one way to live a while. I was born human. The number of elves who've years enough to impress me (that I'm aware of) can be counted on the fingers of one hand. LK: Mystra generally draws the line at agents who threaten her with fiends. Nadrathen did and lived to be an object lesson but I stripped him of about 80 percent of his strength before sending packing in shame, he'd already been slotted for a role in El's education so the simpler, more efficient route was forbidden. |
| Lord Karsus05-30-07, 12:16 AM | LK: Mystra generally draws the line at agents who threaten her with fiends. Nadrathen did and lived to be an object lesson but I stripped him of about 80 percent of his strength before sending packing in shame, he'd already been slotted for a role in El's education so the simpler, more efficient route was forbidden. -Only Karsus knows what I/We have in store...All shall be revealed in due time, venerable Masked One. -By the way, can you re-send that PM you sent me? I had a chance to quickly skim through it, but I accidentally deleted it before I could really read it in depth and tell you what I thought. |
| MaskedOne05-30-07, 12:44 AM | Accurate and as your counterpart contended, your employee your problem. At least unless he has the poor taste to deliberately make himself subject to my mandate in a way that does not involve you after my attention to his affairs has been openly declared. |
| BrennonGoldeye05-30-07, 08:41 AM | Accurate and as your counterpart contended, your employee your problem. At least unless he has the poor taste to deliberately make himself subject to my mandate in a way that does not involve you after my attention to his affairs has been openly declared. I blame it on the rarefied workforce.:) |
| XHereticX06-01-07, 07:19 PM | Morgoth, like Shar? Oh no, not at all. He wanted to corrupt the world, true, so he could control it. His purview within the world was all things evil and dark, so covering the world with such corruption would help give him control of it and take it away from the Valar (for instance, recall how his corrupting the rivers was driving away Ulmo's power from them). He didn't want to destroy the world - he helped create it, even, if you recall the Music of the Ainur - he just wanted to have power over it, to bend it to his will, just as Eru had power over and a plan for his creations. Shar actually wants to destroy the world - and everything else for that matter - to return existence to nothingness. Zevox No, if you read the silmarillion more detailedly, you will find that Morgoth's true intent is to plunge the world into the void. Sauron was a little wiser, and resorted to corrupting the world. Morgoth was the original inspiration for Tharizdun, Sargeras, Chaos Gods, and other such powerful nihilistic beings. |
| Zevox06-02-07, 01:28 PM | No, if you read the silmarillion more detailedly, you will find that Morgoth's true intent is to plunge the world into the void. Sauron was a little wiser, and resorted to corrupting the world. Morgoth was the original inspiration for Tharizdun, Sargeras, Chaos Gods, and other such powerful nihilistic beings. My friend, I've read that book many times over. I'm quite certain Morgoth had no intention of destroying the world - his desire for it was born as soon as he saw it in the vision Eru gave him. Hells, even before he saw the world in that vision, he desired the Imperishable Flame so that he could make creatures in his own image as Eru had made him. Here, I'll give you a couple of quotes: [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places, seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. But when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Iluvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place. And of these Melkor was the chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music. <snip sentence about the intentions he faked to the others> But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Iluvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills. I think those two should make it obvious that destroying the world was the last thing he would want. Sauron was just a chip off the old block, just a little smarter about where he invested his power (focusing it into the Ring to amplify it rather than spreading it out across his servants and the world to combat the Valar's influence). Zevox |
| XHereticX06-02-07, 01:33 PM | Exactly, he sought to remake the world in his own vision, and then deliver it into the void.;) |
| boards06-02-07, 06:19 PM | Given that Tolkien refers to ME as Morgoths ring I seriously doubt that he wants to deliver it to the void. Morgoth sank a great deal of his personal power into ME in order to dominate it, hence the reason Beleriland was destroyed. If he had consigned it to the void much of his own power would be destroyed with it, much the Saurons was when his ring was destroyed. |
| Zevox06-02-07, 06:50 PM | Given that Tolkien refers to ME as Morgoths ring I seriously doubt that he wants to deliver it to the void. Morgoth sank a great deal of his personal power into ME in order to dominate it, hence the reason Beleriland was destroyed. If he had consigned it to the void much of his own power would be destroyed with it, much the Saurons was when his ring was destroyed. To be technical, most of Beleriand was broken in the War of Wrath, and the rest sunk with Nśmenor, not because Morgoth's power was in it. Otherwise, yes, thats all correct. Zevox |