Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tiamat2 05-15-07, 05:47 PM	I have some general questions about the courts of the Fey and how they relate to Faerun. Since there is no general Fey resource and information on them is scarce (mostly confined to the articles posted on Wizards some years ago), I thought some other people might have some insights. 1. Are the Unseelie and Seelie Courts present in the FR setting? Are they ruled by Titania (Seelie) and the Queen of Air and Darkness (Unseelie) as in most depictions? 2. What types of fey make up the Court fey in each court? The fey presented in the Monster Manuals have never matched my idea of Fey courtiers (I simply can't imagine satyrs, nymphs and pixies being the cut-throat politicos described in the articles that appeared on Wizards). Are fey courtiers fey "monsters" or are they just creatures with the court templates that appeared in Dragon magazine? My picture of fey courtiers has always been closer to the faeries in the mediocre novel Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, rather than just monster manual fey that live together in a close environment. The one thing missing from all of those fey articles about the Court was just who the fey at court were and which fey formed noble houses as described. 3. Are fey immortal in Faerun or just very long-lived? This question is not answered very well in the articles, even though two entire articles take up the topic. Thanks again.
Tyberian 05-15-07, 06:42 PM	At least the Unseelie Court is present in the realms. It is discussed a little in the Elaine Cunningham series about Halruaa. In fact, a trip to their realm was the crucible that boiled away all the not evil components of a particular, but unnamed, Drow priestess' heart and set the dark elves of Illythir down the road of their destruction. I assume the seelie court would exist also. For other D&D, non realms info, you could look into Races of the Wild which has an immortal character race of Fey called the killoren. Also, I believe that in either Complete Mage or Complete Divine there is a prestige class which lets you choose two paths: Seelie or Unseelie.
The Ubbergeek 05-15-07, 06:43 PM	On 2, I think there is two 'circles' to the Court - the more classical feys in the inner ring, the wilder aspects like centaurs outside.
Tiamat2 05-15-07, 06:49 PM	On 2, I think there is two 'circles' to the Court - the more classical feys in the inner ring, the wilder aspects like centaurs outside. What would you consider classical feys?
Gray Richardson 05-15-07, 07:12 PM	1. Are the Unseelie and Seelie Courts present in the FR setting?Yes, although the influence of the fey folk has waned since the peak of their civilization over 30,000 years ago. Today they are mostly hidden in the wilderness places. Their culture has mostly withdrawn to the Plane of Faerie, where they presumably still thrive.Are they ruled by Titania (Seelie) and the Queen of Air and Darkness (Unseelie) as in most depictions?Yes. Although we do not know that the Seelie and the Unseelie are the only cultures/nations/factions among the fey folks. There may be other fey groups, cultures, and nations that are on par with the Seelie and Unseelie.2. What types of fey make up the Court fey in each court?According to the Manual of the Planes, the Seelie are most easily depicted as an elf with the Celestial Template, while the Unseelie are most easily depicted as elves with the Fiendish Template. Dragon Magazine actually had a Seelie and an Unseelie template if I recall, which was reprinted in the Dragon Compendium (highly recommended as a fun and useful sourcebook). Thomas Costa had some Seelie and Unseelie sprites I believe in the Bestiary of the Realms II (http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html). As for the racial make up of the fey courts, this is not particularly detailed anywhere. In general, you could say that evil fey tend toward the Unseelie Court and good fey tend towards the Seelie, but I am not sure that is a hard and fast rule. Feel free to work it however you think best in your own campaign. I would like to recommend a 3rd party book called Faeries (http://dragonwing.net/Faeries.htm) by Bryon Wischstadt which was edited by former realms editor and current author and freelancer Stephen Schend. It has some amazing lore about Faeries and the plane of Faerie, including language, culture, politics, prestige classes, spells, feats, monsters, gods, etc. A really awesome sourcebook that was designed to be as consonant with FR lore and D&D lore as possible without infringing on WotC's copyrights or intellectial property. I believe that Ed Greenwood even consulted on the book. You could certainly use it for the fey creator race in the Forgotten Realms easily as is or with minor modifications if you like. If you click on the link for the book above, there is a cool web enhancement and a preview pdf for the book that you can download from their page which can give you a feel for the book if you are wondering what it is like.Are fey courtiers fey "monsters" or are they just creatures with the court templates that appeared in Dragon magazine?I imagine that fey society is somewhat caste oriented, with various fey races considering themselves as holding certain stations with respect to other fey races. Fey are a diverse lot, and though they are a multi-cultural society, I am not sure how they deal with that, whether they share our modern approach to integrating all their species and sharing in society equally or whether they take a more medieval approach, segregating their cultures by class, caste and race. You are certainly free to design a fey society that approaches your own aesthetics, as there is very little guidance about this in Realms sources.Are fey courtiers fey "monsters" or are they just creatures with the court templates that appeared in Dragon magazine? My picture of fey courtiers has always been closer to the faeries in the mediocre novel Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, rather than just monster manual fey that live together in a close environment. The one thing missing from all of those fey articles about the Court was just who the fey at court were and which fey formed noble houses as described.There used to be a "fey creator race". But no one knows if it was a separate race, or just an aggolomeration of the fey we have now. Many people have suggested using the LeShay form the Epic Level Handbook as the Fey creator race. They don't have much of a presence in Faerūn but perhaps there may be an abundance of them in the Plane of Faerie3. Are fey immortal in Faerun or just very long-lived?Probably just long-lived. They are certainly subject to death by "misadventure" and the wilderlands in which they live have many natural dangers such as predators and diseases and natural injuries and the like. They are very much a part of the natural world in which they live, and like all mortal things are subject to decline with age. Some extraordinary individuals may indeed be immortal, but in general, fey do seem to age with time and may perish as the years overtake them. Again, you should feel free to decide differently or establish expected lifetimes however you see fit for the fey in your Realms. :elf:
Tiamat2 05-15-07, 07:17 PM	Excellent post, Gray and thank you. I ordered the Dragon Compendium recently and will use the Fey templates there for courtiers I think.
The Ubbergeek 05-15-07, 07:30 PM	What would you consider classical feys? Elves in the classical sense, feys, pixies, etc...
Old Sage 05-15-07, 08:36 PM	I would like to recommend a 3rd party book called Faeries (http://dragonwing.net/Faeries.htm) by Bryon Wischstadt which was edited by former realms editor and current author and freelancer Stephen Schend. It has some amazing lore about Faeries and the plane of Faerie, including language, culture, politics, prestige classes, spells, feats, monsters, gods, etc. A really awesome sourcebook that was designed to be as consonant with FR lore and D&D lore as possible without infringing on WotC's copyrights or intellectial property. I believe that Ed Greenwood even consulted on the book.I'll second Gray's suggestion... it's a great resource. Here's a little of what Steven Schend had to say:- "For those interested in another take/option on Faerie, there is a D20 option from Bastion Press y'all might want to take a look at..... Bryon Wischstadt, long-time Realms fanatic and all-around good guy, wrote this guide to Faerie (both the realm/plane and inhabitants) and yours truly edited it alongside him. As both of us (and Jim Butler, Bastion's president, CEO, and chief cook and bottle washer) all have a deep and abiding love for the Realms, there's nothing in there that wouldn't work in terms of using Faerie as a source for ancient elves (or other more modern threats). It's a mix of old folklore and modern conceptions of Faerie and even stats up Old Man Winter, Father Time, and Father Christmas if you want such. Steven Who apologizes profusely for plugging a product but it seems relevant to the discussion at hand"
Tiamat2 05-16-07, 01:58 PM	Steven Who apologizes profusely for plugging a product but it seems relevant to the discussion at hand" Thanks for the plug. I ordered it today.
Old Sage 05-16-07, 08:30 PM	I exist to serve the Sage Schend! :D
Krash 05-16-07, 10:10 PM	You can expect more mentions and information re fey in the Realms by the end of the year. -- George Krashos
Tiamat2 05-16-07, 10:40 PM	You can expect more mentions and information re fey in the Realms by the end of the year. -- George Krashos Really? I hadn't noticed any new products for the Realms coming out that might mention Fey.
Krash 05-17-07, 05:57 AM	Some FR writers are pretty sneaky.:) -- George Krashos
Gray Richardson 05-17-07, 08:13 AM	I am hopeful that A Grand History of the Realms will have some new information about the creator races, including the fey. Although... we also have the Shadowdale adventure coming out and the Expedition to Undermountain adventure too. Both have the kind of authors that would sneak some amazing fey lore into a book on a seemingly unrelated topic. Of course, I counted some 15 novels left to be published this year (if I am not mistakenly counting some reprints) so maybe our fey lore will be found therein. Wow, that leaves me a lot of scouring to do!
Gray Richardson 05-17-07, 08:29 AM	You know, since Serpent Kingdoms came out, I had hoped they might follow up some day with a Sylvan Kingdoms sourcebook of fey lore. It could detail the plane of Faerie and the many fey communities around the Realms and some choice lore about the fey creator race. It could be chock full of new monsters and new fey-related creatures, new spells, new feats, new items and so on. Maybe have some adventures in it. I feel sure that there would be interest. Cross-over interest even among the core D&D crowd. There are any number of talented writers who they could tap for such a project including Eric Boyd, Gwen Kestrel, Bryon Wischstadt, Steven Schend, Tom Costa, Wil Upchurch, Ed Bonny, James Wyatt, Eytan Bernstein, and a dozen others. I would dearly love to see such a project!
Lord Karsus 05-17-07, 10:45 AM	You know, since Serpent Kingdoms came out, I had hoped they might follow up some day with a Sylvan Kingdoms sourcebook of fey lore. -That sure would be nice. Something like that on all of the Creator Races...
Tiamat2 05-17-07, 11:03 AM	The fey have been a heavily neglected group in DnD as a whole and especially in the Realms. I've always thought that it largely was a product of many classical fey races being converted into humanoid or goblinoid races without a faerie connection. Still, it would be nice if they would break some new ground here rather publishing an umpteenth Shadowdale book or yet another Complete "Blank" book.
EytanBernstein 05-18-07, 05:28 AM	You know, since Serpent Kingdoms came out, I had hoped they might follow up some day with a Sylvan Kingdoms sourcebook of fey lore. It could detail the plane of Faerie and the many fey communities around the Realms and some choice lore about the fey creator race. It could be chock full of new monsters and new fey-related creatures, new spells, new feats, new items and so on. Maybe have some adventures in it. I feel sure that there would be interest. Cross-over interest even among the core D&D crowd. There are any number of talented writers who they could tap for such a project including Eric Boyd, Gwen Kestrel, Bryon Wischstadt, Steven Schend, Tom Costa, Wil Upchurch, Ed Bonny, James Wyatt, Eytan Bernstein, and a dozen others. I would dearly love to see such a project! A fey book has been a long dream of mine, but I have no knowledge of any plans to do one. That said, I did talk about fey in my recent Class Chronicles: Warlocks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070328) article.
Gray Richardson 05-18-07, 05:48 PM	Nice! I love those articles. Chock full of such wonderful Realmslore. Great way to work in some fey lore, nice to see the Queen of Air & Darkness get some play. Makes total sense that she would sponsor warlock pacts. You mentioned off-handedly that the Queen has increasing influence in Faerūn of late. I wonder why her power is on the rise? Has there been an influx of unseelie fey back into the Realms from Faerie? Or are they having a higher birthrate in Faerūn in recent years for some reason? Or maybe they are merely bringing more neutral or unaligned fey under their control. Are the Unseelie on the march in the fey lands? There could be a nifty story there. I certainly do hope she is on the rise. I think there are a lot or plot lines and stories one could weave around a resurgence of the Unseelie in Faerūn, especially if the fey were on the march to some dark purpose.
The Ubbergeek 05-18-07, 06:47 PM	Make one wonder if there is a link with another famous darkness goddess of Faerun...
Lord Karsus 05-18-07, 06:54 PM	Make one wonder if there is a link with another famous darkness goddess of Faerun... -If you read her entry in Monsterous Mythology, I really don't think so. But, everyone is allowed to make their own connections and what not.
XHereticX 05-18-07, 07:44 PM	So what kind of place do the Seelie and Unseelie have in the FR cosmology. Is Faerie some sort of Demiplane or something?
GothicDan 05-18-07, 07:47 PM	-If you read her entry in Monsterous Mythology, I really don't think so. But, everyone is allowed to make their own connections and what not. Nothing in Shar's entry in F&A either, if I remember correctly.
MarkusTay63 05-18-07, 11:06 PM	Can't believe I haven't been to this thread before. :eek: In 1979 I was 'commissioned' (read "begged company owner profusely") to do a sourcebook simply called Fäerie for a game called Chivalry and Sorcery produced by Fantasy Games Unlimited. I did months of research, including reading dozens of books either purchased or from my local library. I had started to compile my data and turn it into something 'coherent' for the game, but alas, the company moved out to the west coast and I lost touch with the owner. I recently came across my old notes while cleaning out my attic, and since none of them had been made system-specific yet they are still useful. I plan on doing a Fäerie Netbook eventually somewhere down the road, but the single best D20 product I have seen for them is Goodman Games' The Complete Guide to the Fey, which is as close to anything I myself would have come up with (and, dare I say it, perhaps better?). The way that supplement breaks down the groups of Fey is pure genius, and the rules are both simple and able to explain away most of the strangeness in the thousands of folklore tales about the Fey. It even shows you how to create fey creatures from scratch using a their formula, including the ones in the Monster Manual! My second favorite reference IS D&D - the Creative Crucible Tall Tales of the Wee Folk supplement that came out for the Mystara setting. It sets the Fäerie court in that world, and Oberon's the King (it was a man's world, back then, what can I say?), but otherwise there is some old school TSR goodness to be found within. I haven't seen Faeries (not counting my brother-in-law ;) ), but I will have to look into that source as well: Folklore has been my passion since I was 'but a wee bairn'. If anyone is interested, I did a working model of my latest Fäerie concept over at my Deviantart site. (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/54652539/) It's a work-in-progress, just to help me visualize things for the future article. I now include it in a 'trinity' of Dream Planes, connected but seperate from one another. This thread makes me want to finish my article on the early Elves, which ties into a second article about a centaur scholar named Tiberius, and his history of Fäerie, and the divisions of the courts. Ah well... maybe someday.
Tiamat2 05-18-07, 11:10 PM	My understanding is that the Goodman book is not compatible with the Realms and its presentation of the Fey tends to overemphasize their power. Its one reason I haven't picked it up. I did order Faeries, but I'm having some second thoughts since I haven't seen the words Seelie or Unseelie mentioned once in reviews. But it wasn't expensive and I love reading lore books so its probably not a waste.
MarkusTay63 05-18-07, 11:55 PM	I don't know why it wouldn't be compatible; in fact, the system used therein is kind of universal. My favorite rule in that book (and its lore-heavy, not rule-heavy) is the following - Fey Magic can Counter Arcane magic, but not Devine magic. Arcane magic can not counter Fey magic. Devine magic can counter Fey magic. That simple rule(s) explains about 50% of all faery Folklore. Fey creatures LOVE to mess with wizards, but they are scared to death of priests. That supplement just explained it away, without having to delve into Christianity, demonolgy, and any other 'messy' subject that might otherwise have been incorporated. To me, that is an example of the perfect rule - simple, yet explains much. As far as courts go, it has the Court of Dreams (Seelie), the Court of Nightmares (Unseelie), AND the Twilight Court, which is like a court of neutrality, and is new to Faerie lore (AFAIK). By combining a court with a race and a class, you can come up with every archtype imaginable. It's worth it, trust me. Another pretty good source for 2e Fey is the Shadow Rift supplement for Ravenloft. Although a VERY dark take on the Fey (its RL, whaddya expect?), it does give some interesting insight into their society. There are also bits and pieces of Faerie lore in Planescape products, which are illustrated by one of the greatest 'Fey Artists' I've seen, Tony Di'Terlizzi - the man gave the entire setting a 'dark fey' feel. Anyhow, I would also reccomend Faeries by Brian Froud and Alan lee. Although not a game supplement, it is one of my favorite sources for Fäerie lore.
Gray Richardson 05-19-07, 04:06 AM	My understanding is that the Goodman book is not compatible with the Realms and its presentation of the Fey tends to overemphasize their power. Its one reason I haven't picked it up. I did order Faeries, but I'm having some second thoughts since I haven't seen the words Seelie or Unseelie mentioned once in reviews. But it wasn't expensive and I love reading lore books so its probably not a waste.No worries! The Faeries book definitely has much lore regarding the Seelie and Unseelie. It talks about Titania and the Queen of Air & Darkness and other powerful fey. You will be very pleased with your purchase I assure you. ;) Check out this cool "preview" pdf of the book to see a few pages of what's inside: http://dragonwing.net/downloads/e-faeries.zip There was also this addenda, FAQ and errata web enhancement too that I thought was pretty cool: http://dragonwing.net/downloads/Faeries_errata.pdf It has some neat maps in it and some other cool lore.
MarkusTay63 05-19-07, 01:31 PM	LOL, both of those links just give me a big ol' FORBIDDEN across my screen. Too bad, because you have piqued my interest. EDIT: so does your original link, and I even tried to alter it to go to a 'main page', but still the "Forbidden" screen. I guess the 'Net Faeries' are at it again. ;) Too bad this product is so hard to obtain.
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 01:38 PM	-Adjust your Internet Explorer settings. The links start an automatic download.
MarkusTay63 05-19-07, 02:06 PM	I download stuff from the Internet all the time, and I have NEVER encountered this problem before. I checked my settings, but there is nothing that would block a download. Ah well, I guess it wasn't meant to be. :(
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 10:02 PM	I download stuff from the Internet all the time, and I have NEVER encountered this problem before. I checked my settings, but there is nothing that would block a download. Ah well, I guess it wasn't meant to be. :( -Markus, here's what to do. Go to this link: http://dragonwing.net/downloads -This is the website directory. At the bottom will be a link to E-Faeries.zip. The middle of the page will have a link to Faeries_Errata.PDF. Those are the two files that Gray mentioned. From the page you should be looking at now, you should be able to download them manually. Let me know if that works out.
MarkusTay63 05-19-07, 10:36 PM	LOL :rofl: This is what I see - Forbidden You don't have permission to access /downloads on this server. Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. I've already researched it, and basically there is an incompatible protocol between my ISP and the server hosting the site. There simply is no work around for me. :( It seems my computers faeries don't get along with theirs. Maybe I'll try tomorrow from a different computer, but I'm going to get this same thing from any of the ones here (same ISP).
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 11:04 PM	-Hmm...Sounds like those Unseelie Faeries at work.
squidfur- 05-19-07, 11:28 PM	you might find this link interesting http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20020227a i just did a search for "unseelie" on the wizards main site and came up with a bunch of articles - most general but a few that'd apply to FR.
MarkusTay63 05-19-07, 11:46 PM	I read those awhile ago, and although well-written, there not very useful IG. Except for those 'Elemental fey', they were kinda cool...
Tiamat2 05-21-07, 03:02 PM	I don't know why it wouldn't be compatible; in fact, the system used therein is kind of universal. My favorite rule in that book (and its lore-heavy, not rule-heavy) is the following - Fey Magic can Counter Arcane magic, but not Devine magic. Arcane magic can not counter Fey magic. Devine magic can counter Fey magic. This quote from the description of the Complete Guide to Fey: "The fey races are known for their magic and mystery -- but now, for the first time, they'll be known for what they truly are. The Complete Guide to Fey presents a groundbreaking rules system for tying all the fey races together. Using feats, templates, hosts, and completely new rules, it breaks down all the Monster Manual fey races, rebuilds them, and then ties them into a comprehensive overarching plot where the fate of all the known worlds hangs into the balance." Made me think it wasn't compatible with most settings, but the FR in particular. I'm not sure the idea of the fey holding the fate of the known worlds in the balance works for the FR. Plus, it didn't seem to feature the Seelie and Unseelie courts, though you mention they are in the book under different names.
MarkusTay63 05-22-07, 10:11 AM	Made me think it wasn't compatible with most settings, but the FR in particular. I'm not sure the idea of the fey holding the fate of the known worlds in the balance works for the FR. Plus, it didn't seem to feature the Seelie and Unseelie courts, though you mention they are in the book under different names.They are referred to the Seelie and Unseelie as well, but I believe those are the human names for those courts. Fey can move between courts as well, so the rules simulate quite a few different situations. Actually, the way I have it all worked out, those rules and FR mesh perfectly. :D You see, Fey were actually created at the End of Time (my take, not from that source), and live their lives in reverse! That is why time flows so diffeent around them. The gods created them to save the universe from some cosmic menace, and they did. But they were created super-powerful (lev 90?), so to keep things balanced they get older (yet smaller) and weaker in reverse. If they live their lives frugally, they will last all the way to the beginning of time, but if they waste energy they will dwindle and die all the sooner. I haven't worked all the bugs out of this 'theory' yet, but I do know what the threat was. An evil race following the god of the Far Realms was trying to un-make the universe and return it to the primal chaos. The race would be rewarded by mentally melding with the god, becoming the supreme intelligence of the universe (the ONLY intelligence, in fact). There is a reason the Illithids came back in time.... ;)