Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wizardude9 07-23-07, 07:45 PM	If all of the seven sisters are daughters of Mystra how is Qilue a drow and chosen of Mystra and Chosen of Eilistraee?
Old Sage 07-23-07, 07:57 PM	Qilue was born to a drow female and prominent worshipper of Eilistraee. Elue Shundar, the mortal host of Mystra, died before Mystra/Shundar could carry the seventh child, Qilue, to full term. And so, a new mother had to be found before Mystra's own power consumed the child. Mystra set about looking for another suitable womb for the unborn Qilue, and found Iliryztara Veladorn. Veladorn was also pregnant but her adventuring ways had resulted in the death of her own unborn child -- she was not aware of this however -- and as a result, her own life was threatened because of it. Mystra decided to replace Iliryztara's dead unborn child with Qilue, thus saving both Qilue's and Iliryztara's lives. However, Eilistraee had plans for Iliryztara and her unborn child. Mystra, thus, sought permission from Eilistraee about whether the Goddess of Mysteries could intervene in Veladorn's life. Eilistraee agreed and Qilue was placed in Iliryztara's womb. When Qilue was born, she was born a drow and servant of both Mystra and Eilistraee. This is explained fully in The Seven Sisters.
Lord Karsus 07-23-07, 09:18 PM	-Well, there isn't much else to say... -Hmm...Qilue appears in a few novels, including, but not limited to Sacrifice of the Widow, Silverfall, and Daughter of the Drow.
XerelinFexdrion 08-14-07, 01:11 PM	Speaking of Qilue... i'm running a campaign that involves my guys getting attacked at the promenade... so i need a write-up on Qilue. does anybody have one or can tell me where to get one?:confused:
DarkSongKnight 08-14-07, 01:21 PM	Speaking of Qilue... i'm running a campaign that involves my guys getting attacked at the promenade... so i need a write-up on Qilue. does anybody have one or can tell me where to get one?:confused: Don't have a full-blown writeup, but I do know she is a Cleric 16/Divine Disciple 3 of Eilistraee, and also a Chosen of Mystra. From what I remember she had incredible ability scores. Str 14, Dex 18, Con 26, Int ?, Wis 19, Cha 18. Talk about a massive Con score.... She wields a silver singing bastard sword +3, a silver dagger, and a Rod of some sort... Her priestess robe/gown is very nice too, and has special powers (invisibility at will, on the robe mind you, as I remember). Don't quote me on any of this, its what I remember off the top of my head... :D
XerelinFexdrion 08-14-07, 05:21 PM	thanks to DarkSongKnight. that's helps out a bit. i've already compiled some info on her and that'll build to the pile, hopefully i'll have enough to get some good out of it before next meeting.
Old Sage 08-14-07, 08:32 PM	Speaking of Qilue... i'm running a campaign that involves my guys getting attacked at the promenade... so i need a write-up on Qilue. does anybody have one or can tell me where to get one?:confused:Do you have a copy of the Heroes' Lorebook? Qilué has a detailed entry within. Her entry in The Seven Sisters tome will also prove useful.
Zandilar 08-14-07, 08:40 PM	Heya, Do you have a copy of the Heroes' Lorebook? Qilué has a detailed entry within. Her entry in The Seven Sisters tome will also prove useful. I believe that at least the Heroes Lorebook is available as a free PDF download. Seven Sisters may be one of those 2nd Ed sources that are not available at all.
XerelinFexdrion 08-15-07, 10:50 AM	do you know wher i could find said hero's lorebook as a free PDF because i don't have a chance to obtain a hard copy? Thanks for the source. and all the help.
Old Sage 08-15-07, 11:57 AM	Zandilar may actually be referring to the Villains' Lorebook, which is available as a free PDF download (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) here at WotC. Heroes' Lorebook is not available as a free PDF. You purchase it, as a PDF, for just $4US at paizo.com (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/2ndEdition/v5748btpy7mld&source=search).
XerelinFexdrion 08-15-07, 01:00 PM	thanks. it's not what i was looking for, but it was something cool to look at.:D
Eli_the_Tanner 08-15-07, 01:27 PM	Does anyone know if the Chosen of Eilistraee template has been statted antwhere?
Zandilar 08-15-07, 07:37 PM	Heya, Zandilar may actually be referring to the Villains' Lorebook, which is available as a free PDF download (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) here at WotC. Heroes' Lorebook is not available as a free PDF. You purchase it, as a PDF, for just $4US at paizo.com (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/2ndEdition/v5748btpy7mld&source=search). Doh, you're right. :) I've lost track of which ones I paid for, and which ones were free. :)
Old Sage 08-15-07, 08:42 PM	Does anyone know if the Chosen of Eilistraee template has been statted antwhere?Not officially. You're bound to find one or two fan-based interpretations elsewhere however.
The Simbul 08-17-07, 05:01 AM	Obviously enough, The Seven Sisters sourcebook is infinitely superior to the Heroes Lorebook if you are specifically seeking information on them. Do not waste time/money on the latter if you plan to acquire the former, since the information from the Heroes Lorebook is directly lifted from the other, and you would only need the Heroes Lorebook if you want information on other characters of the realms, or if you absolutely must have an NPCs information condensed and hacked up into a two page description. In some cases many of the powers, abilities, allies, or other notable details from The Seven Sisters are missing from their Heroes Lorebook sections due to the haphazard collection of information from the older tome into the newer one. I am not sure if this applies to Qilué , but it does apply in the case of Alustriel and Dove. Among other things, I am more than willing to wager that the reason why Alustriel does not protection from spells as a supernatural ability in 3E (much like the additional special abilities in the stat blocks for Laeral, the Simbul, and Storm) is likely due to her 3E stat block being drawn more from the Heroes Lorebook than the original source, which failed to note her permanent Serten's spell immunity (protection from spells in 3E) among her powers listed in The Seven Sisters. In short, basically having seven pages on an NPC (plus additional sections on their spells, magic items, and using them in a campaign) is better than having barely two.
admdavid 08-17-07, 01:15 PM	Ditto what The Simbul said. The Seven Sisters book is so much better because of the detail and actual background information you get along with the stat blocks.
BlackHalfDragon 08-17-07, 02:19 PM	I've often dreamed of runnign a campagin for evil characters who must hunt down and kill them all for sheer badness... alas...
MerrikCale 08-17-07, 10:48 PM	Can I just say how much I loathe the seven sisters? They're all the same character.
Old Sage 08-17-07, 11:47 PM	How exactly? Most of Ed's writings on the Seven present each of them in their own unique ways... I'm puzzled by this statement.
Zandilar 08-18-07, 07:58 AM	Heya, How exactly? Most of Ed's writings on the Seven present each of them in their own unique ways... I'm puzzled by this statement. Well the problem is they don't have any brothers... And none of them are men. So therefore they must all be the same, despite differing temperaments and characters. :rolleyes:
The Simbul 08-18-07, 02:32 PM	They're all the same character.No, that would be the twelve princes of shade my dear. After an entire novel trilogy and a "definitive" list in Lords of Darkness (which still ended up being quite a few short) we have none who are memorable, noteworthy, or somehow non-interchangeable with their brothers, beyond the three who received a fragment of personality and dialog before being killed off at the end of each novel (Melegaunt in The Summoning, Rivalen in The Siege, and Escanor in The Sorcerer). Of course my personal all-time favorite was in The Sorcerer, when we had three of the princes melted out of the battle by the invisible spell barrier of the Chosen, and the author apparently realized it would not even be important enough to the audience for him to actually name them. Or better yet--we have Mattick and Vattick, where we get to have two characters for half the creative work, by having two of the twelve princes be identical twins with identical personalities and identical classes and levels. With the possible exception of Paul S. Kemp's current trilogy, and a one-shot part of the Priests series--neither of which I have gotten to yet--I think it is safe to say at least nine of those 12 are nothing more than background scenery, and even the other three only barely received a character transplant before dying.
MerrikCale 08-18-07, 04:26 PM	No, that would be the twelve princes of shade my dear. After an entire novel trilogy and a "definitive" list in Lords of Darkness (which still ended up being quite a few short) we have none who are memorable, noteworthy, or somehow non-interchangeable with their brothers, beyond the three who received a fragment of personality and dialog before being killed off at the end of each novel (Melegaunt in The Summoning, Rivalen in The Siege, and Escanor in The Sorcerer). Of course my personal all-time favorite was in The Sorcerer, when we had three of the princes melted out of the battle by the invisible spell barrier of the Chosen, and the author apparently realized it would not even be important enough to the audience for him to actually name them. Or better yet--we have Mattick and Vattick, where we get to have two characters for half the creative work, by having two of the twelve princes be identical twins with identical personalities and identical classes and levels. With the possible exception of Paul S. Kemp's current trilogy, and a one-shot part of the Priests series--neither of which I have gotten to yet--I think it is safe to say at least nine of those 12 are nothing more than background scenery, and even the other three only barely received a character transplant before dying. I'll give you the shades are worse than the seven sisters. The seven sisters are far from having different temperaments with the possible exception of Storm, maybe. All 7 (except maybe Storm) are dull IMHO. Of course, for some reason, Zandilar thinks that if I don't like female characters I must be a sexist. Thats some jump
Old Sage 08-18-07, 07:34 PM	Yet you've failed to explain how you can justify that the Seven Sisters are 'far from having different temperaments,' especially when a thorough reading of the existent Realmslore on the Seven themselves, clearly proves otherwise. Please enlighten us.
Zandilar 08-18-07, 08:41 PM	Heya, I'll give you the shades are worse than the seven sisters. The seven sisters are far from having different temperaments with the possible exception of Storm, maybe. All 7 (except maybe Storm) are dull IMHO. Of course, for some reason, Zandilar thinks that if I don't like female characters I must be a sexist. Thats some jump That might be true if I had actually came right out and said it (and yes, it would have been a very big jump). As it was, I was being sarcastic. I don't think you're sexist. Perhaps I should choose my words better next time and make a more constructive post, rather than just a sarcastic comeback. Anyway, only a few of the Seven have had any serious page time, so unless you have access to the out of print and unobtainable Seven Sisters, it might be possible to come to your conclusion... Especially if you have only read some of the novels in which these character's have had page time - such as some of the RotAW trilogy, Silverfall, Stormlight, some of the Avatar trilogy, some of the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy, some of the Elminster novels, some of Elaine Cunningham's Liriel novels, and quite possibly a number of short stories I don't care to find the names of... I've probably left some out there, but only Storm has had a full novel dedicated to her (one I'm not particularly fond of, unfortunately, as it introduced her invisible boyfriend who has never been mentioned since). I guess it's no surprise that Storm is the only one you make an exception for. That list might look long, by the way, but the vast majority of their appearances (except for Silverfall, Stormlight, and maybe Shadows (it's been a very long time since I read them)) have been along the lines of camoes. The Seven Sisters still has the most comprehensive and definitive descriptions of their personalities you'll find anywhere.
boards 08-18-07, 08:54 PM	The Simbul gets a lot of attention devoted to her in Elminsters Gift IIRC. It's not entirely about her but she is one of the central characters.
MerrikCale 08-18-07, 09:16 PM	Anyway, only a few of the Seven have had any serious page time, so unless you have access to the out of print and unobtainable Seven Sisters, it might be possible to come to your conclusion... Especially if you have only read some of the novels in which these character's have had page time - such as some of the RotAW trilogy, Silverfall, Stormlight, some of the Avatar trilogy, some of the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy, some of the Elminster novels, some of Elaine Cunningham's Liriel novels, and quite possibly a number of short stories I don't care to find the names of... I've probably left some out there, but only Storm has had a full novel dedicated to her (one I'm not particularly fond of, unfortunately, as it introduced her invisible boyfriend who has never been mentioned since). I guess it's no surprise that Storm is the only one you make an exception for. That list might look long, by the way, but the vast majority of their appearances (except for Silverfall, Stormlight, and maybe Shadows (it's been a very long time since I read them)) have been along the lines of camoes. The Seven Sisters still has the most comprehensive and definitive descriptions of their personalities you'll find anywhere. I do in fact have the old Seven Sisters Trade paperback (that must be 15 years old). Dull. The best book on any of the sisters was probably Stormlight You were implying that I was sexist, but I understand you were being sarcastic. I apologize for not picking that up
MerrikCale 08-18-07, 09:18 PM	Yet you've failed to explain how you can justify that the Seven Sisters are 'far from having different temperaments,' especially when a thorough reading of the existent Realmslore on the Seven themselves, clearly proves otherwise. How so? In reading the Ed books where these characters are potrayed they are for the most part (excpet maybe Storm) interchangeable personality-wise. Even Quile is essentially the same character type.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-18-07, 09:19 PM	No, that would be the twelve princes of shade my dear. HA! Too true, but to be fair a couple of the princes are fleshed out a bit more in Paul Kemp's recent novel. Or better yet--we have Mattick and Vattick, where we get to have two characters for half the creative work, by having two of the twelve princes be identical twins with identical personalities and identical classes and levels. And mostly identical names, too--there's one letter of difference between them.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-18-07, 09:24 PM	Anyway, only a few of the Seven have had any serious page time, so unless you have access to the out of print and unobtainable Seven Sisters... Well, I *did* just recently order it from nobleknight.com.:) I think you're just being funny, here, but you can still obtain this book.
Old Sage 08-18-07, 09:31 PM	How so?I've would imagined that, after reading most of the sources, you'd have realised differently. In reading the Ed books where these characters are potrayed they are for the most part (excpet maybe Storm) interchangeable personality-wise. Even Quile is essentially the same character type.Again, I'm failing to see your perspective on this. Unless you're intent on providing actual examples of why you feel this is so, I'm content to continuing assuming that you've clearly not made the effort to properly understand the existing Realmslore on the Seven Sisters. Nor, for that matter, Ed's comments about them made at Candlekeep.
MerrikCale 08-18-07, 11:56 PM	Again, I'm failing to see your perspective on this. Unless you're intent on providing actual examples of why you feel this is so, I'm content to continuing assuming that you've clearly not made the effort to properly understand the existing Realmslore on the Seven Sisters. Nor, for that matter, Ed's comments about them made at Candlekeep. I'm basing it on my reading of the Seven Sisters, Stormlight, and the various other novels written by Ed. I am not basing any of my opinions on these characterizations on any comments made by Ed but strictly on the various works of the author only. To me, in the novels, all of these characters (again with the possible exception of Storm) are essentially one-dimensional. Of course, IMHO, while I feel Mr. Greenwood is an amazing developer, I am generally not a fan of his fiction (I'm gonna hear it now for sure). I enjoyed Stormlight and the most recent Swords of Eveningstar was somewhat enjoyable. The Cormyr books were OK and thats about it. It is difficult to point out a specific example of two characters being the same basic characters when you are basing it on a novel. The opposite is also true. But thats how I feel what can I say? Don't get mad at me, Old Sage
Zandilar 08-19-07, 12:03 AM	Heya, Well, I *did* just recently order it from nobleknight.com.:) I think you're just being funny, here, but you can still obtain this book. I was seriously under the impression that it was actually Out of Print. Are you sure you haven't ordered a 2nd hand copy? (Most stuff of that vintage is out of print, and as far as I know any you might be able to obtain are those that are left over from the last print run or second hand.)
MarkHall 08-19-07, 01:38 AM	Truthfully, I don't like the Seven simply because I don't like most of Ed's demigods.
Old Sage 08-19-07, 03:17 AM	*sigh* 'Ed's demigods?' Really, can you at least explain why you think this is so?
Zandilar 08-19-07, 08:12 AM	Heya, *sigh* 'Ed's demigods?' Really, can you at least explain why you think this is so? Oh! Oh! Let me try! :D They're high level characters who are favoured of the most powerful deity in Faerun. Expanding this a little further (and please, don't assume I'm accusing people of being sexist here)... They're all female, they have silver hair, they are unusually long lived, most of them appear to be in their early middle age and are gorgeous (and one's a ghost, which surely appeals to the goths and the emos, and one's a drow, which appeals to the emos and Drizzt fanbois). They can't seem to do anything wrong (at least for anyone who just glosses over their histories and stories). Oh, and they have all the guys and half the girls fawning over them. :rolleyes: (Not to mention that a few among their number are also bisexual, and Alustriel likes to throw orgies just for fun, but I'm sure alternate sexualities aren't really an issue. :rolleyes:) In short, if you squint just the right way and tilt your head just so, they might even seem to be Mary Sueish. Disclaimers: 1) This is not my opinion. This is my speculation on how someone might come to this conclusion. 2) This is partially tongue in cheek/sarcastic too, so don't get any ideas that I might be insulting anyone in particular - that wasn't my aim.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-19-07, 08:47 PM	Heya, I was seriously under the impression that it was actually Out of Print. Are you sure you haven't ordered a 2nd hand copy? (Most stuff of that vintage is out of print, and as far as I know any you might be able to obtain are those that are left over from the last print run or second hand.) Yes, the book is out-of-print...but that doesn't mean it's unobtainable. Or even necessarily 2nd hand (nobleknight.com has mint condition stuff). Almost any of these books are obtainable unless one is adamantly against ordering anything online.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-19-07, 08:56 PM	*sigh* 'Ed's demigods?' Really, can you at least explain why you think this is so? These are just people's opinions. I don't agree with them, myself, but I don't think it's worth being frustrated over.:) There are always people who dislike Ed's characters, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Imagine how frustrated *I'd* be if I felt beholden to certain new changes in the Realms (which are, essentially, WotC's opinion of what the Realms should be like).
MerrikCale 08-19-07, 11:01 PM	*sigh* 'Ed's demigods?' Really, can you at least explain why you think this is so? well at least he's not mad at me anymore. I suppose calling the characters carbon copies is better than calling them Ed's demigods
Old Sage 08-19-07, 11:18 PM	It has little to do with anger. Rather, it's more about ascertaining why particular Realms devotees harbor these 'thoughts' about specific aspects of the Realms, especially when existent Realmslore tends to suggest such 'thoughts' may not be entirely accurate, at times.
MerrikCale 08-19-07, 11:26 PM	It has little to do with anger. Rather, it's more about ascertaining why particular Realms devotees harbor these 'thoughts' about specific aspects of the Realms, especially when existent Realmslore tends to suggest such 'thoughts' may not be entirely accurate, at times. why do you believe they are not essentially the same character?
MarkusTay63 08-19-07, 11:33 PM	Doesn't matter - they'll probably be dead by this time next year - along with every other 'big gun' in the setting. The Spell Plague just screams "Mage-Death" to me, and they are going to need the IG reason for why magic (and magic-users) are starting over from scratch. So weather you love 'em or hate 'em, kiss the 'bettys' goodbye. ;)
DarkSongKnight 08-19-07, 11:43 PM	*gasp* Spell plague?! Not the Seven! :weep: I really hope they don't destroy another piece of our treasured Realms.
MarkHall 08-20-07, 01:30 AM	*sigh* 'Ed's demigods?' Really, can you at least explain why you think this is so? Yes, Ed's demigods. While they lack a Divine Rank, the Seven Sisters are all direct descendants of Mystra, and, at least in earlier editions (my preferred edition is 2nd), had the ability to hear when the Rune of the Seven, and their names or nicknames, were spoken, along with the next nine words. While they will turn it off as an aid to concentration, they can hear and understand the many times that a common rhyme is recited (the Seven Sister supplement mentions it being used in many situations, as simply a common charm... much as an invocation of a deity might be used, similar to the takbir of Islam), and can understand them separately. Add in the fact that all are accomplished magic-users (lowest spellcasting level is 9th level wizard in 2nd edition; aside from Dove, they range from 16th to 30th level; 3e, I know, has increased some of these levels), the slew of immunities and bonuses granted to those who are the Chosen of Mystra, and you have characters who are, essentially, demigods, lacking only a divine rank. Can you explain to me how they are not demigods, aside from the aforementioned lack of a divine rank? As for why I don't like them, it's not a matter of thinking they are horrible people, or even horrible characters (I've not read a lot which involved them, directly; my Realmslore primarily comes from gaming materials, not novels). I do not, as Zandilar implies (while claiming not to be), object to them because they are female, because they are beautiful, or anything of that nature. I don't think they're infallible, since no god is. Rather, I dislike them, in a game sense, because they require the DM to come up with excuses for them. As essentially free agents of great power and good alignment (especially, in this case, Dove and Storm, and to a lesser extent Laeral; Khelben and Elminster can be included here, as well), you have to come up with reasons why the campaign's issues have to be resolved by the PCs, instead of by Ed's demigods. Why are they unavailable, especially since they know what is said about them, when their aid is asked (they hear, in addition to the Rune of the Chosen, their names, and nicknames, the next nine words that are spoken), and have access to expansive spy networks (being rulers, Harpers, or friends thereof). Sure, when the problem is "local orcs are raiding caravans", it's no problem... that doesn't require the intervention of the Sisters (though most could resolve the immediate problem in an idle afternoon, with little personal risk). However, when the threat is bigger, such as the orcs being in the area since they were driven out of their homes by an even larger menace, you have to wonder "Where are the Sisters" if you're a PC, and decide why they're unavailable if you're a DM. Even novel-writers do this; witness in Realms of the Elves, wherein there's a story about "What is Elminster and other Chosen doing while the Dalelands become a war zone?" In gaming terms, they are either story-telling crutches or stumbling blocks. I prefer my games to involve the PCs as the heroes, gaining their own legend. I find this works better if they're not overshadowed by demigods.
Old Sage 08-20-07, 01:43 AM	why do you believe they are not essentially the same character?Because of the way Ed has written about each of them -- in both sourcebooks and novels. And, by extension, through his replies at Candlekeep. I believe I've said this already. Can you explain to me how they are not demigods, aside from the aforementioned lack of a divine rank?Becuse they've never been officially described as 'demigods.' There shouldn't be an exact, consistent definition of what the 'Seven Sisters' are. Mystra has simply chosen to invest a few of her followers with certain special roles and powers. Nothing more. They aren't divine characters, and they certainly have never been portrayed as demigods. Your interpretation doesn't have any connection with how the Seven Sisters have each been officially established in the Realmslore.
MarkHall 08-20-07, 02:52 AM	Becuse they've never been officially described as 'demigods.' There shouldn't be an exact, consistent definition of what the 'Seven Sisters' are. Mystra has simply chosen to invest a few of her followers with certain special roles and powers. Nothing more. They aren't divine characters, and they certainly have never been portrayed as demigods. Your interpretation doesn't have any connection with how the Seven Sisters have each been officially established in the Realmslore. I'm failing to see how. They are, aside from Qilue, 600 year old humans who are the direct lineal descendants of a deity. That's more or less the definition (http://bartelby.com/61/11/D0121100.html) of demigod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demigod). Heck, they're even prayed to as part of people's daily lives, through the Rune of the Seven. Whatever the reason, it is clear that Mystra told Azuth at about the time of the Year of the Rising Flame (0 DR) that some of her divine power must be given into the hands of mortals. It would slumber within them, so that Mystra could call on it only with their permission. It would serve to help them heal quickly and would stretch their years into virtual immortality, but otherwise it would avail them little. The Chosen might gain some special powers, but these would still be far less than those of a deity (see the following chapter, “Powers of the Chosen,” for the actual benefits of possessing some of Mystra’s power). ... It soon became clear to Mystra that most mortals were not tough enough to carry divine power. ... Mystra decided that Faerûn was furnishing the hardy and noble, such as Khelben, and wily but loyal rogues, such as Elminster, too rarely to suit her purpose. She set about breeding individuals to serve as her Chosen, rather than trying to induce mature and powerful mortals into her service. Again, how do they not meet the definition of demigods? Not "are not portrayed that way in Realmslore", but the definition of demigods? EDIT: Checking the SRD, they also fall very close to the RAW definition of quasi-deities; they're not statted with Divine Rank 0, but they're close in terms of D&D definitions to what Divine Rank 0 means. Rank 0: Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.
Old Sage 08-20-07, 04:23 AM	Again, it comes directly back to the fact that there is no exact or consistent definition of what the 'Chosen' and the 'Seven Sisters' are. We look to the Realmslore and interprete Mystra's actions as merely investing select followers with certain specialised duties/roles and specific powers that are apparently crucial to the function of her faith. There are lots of different ways a god can invest a mortal follower with power, which we could arbitrarily divide into, from lesser to greater: 1. priests; 2. things like Mystra's spellstaves; 3. the Chosen of Bane or Deneir, Seraph of Lies, or the Magister; 4. Mystra's Chosen, which are a unique case. None of these have officially equated with the conception of a 'demigod,' nor have they been specifically stated as such in the existent Realmslore. You're trying to define the conceptual basis of the Chosen and the Seven Sisters, apparently unaware of the fact that their natures simply shouldn't be so easily understood.
Zandilar 08-20-07, 07:02 AM	Heya, As for why I don't like them, it's not a matter of thinking they are horrible people, or even horrible characters (I've not read a lot which involved them, directly; my Realmslore primarily comes from gaming materials, not novels). I do not, as Zandilar implies (while claiming not to be), object to them because they are female, because they are beautiful, or anything of that nature. I don't think they're infallible, since no god is. I think you missed my point. The important sentence in that post was "In short, if you squint just the right way and tilt your head just so, they might even seem to be Mary Sueish." Many of the things I had mentioned in the previous paragraph are clues towards a Mary Sue style character - being beautiful, being beloved by everyone, can never do anything wrong (or always does everything wrong, but is always forgiven), and possess unusual physical traits and powers - in this case that's fairly obvious. I guess I'm going to have to stop being sarcastic from here on in. *sigh* By the way MarkHall, the very first paragraph of the post I'm replying to, and the next post you made to Old Sage, make up an excellent argument why they should actually be demigods, and I agree with many of your points. Rather, I dislike them, in a game sense, because they require the DM to come up with excuses for them. As essentially free agents of great power and good alignment (especially, in this case, Dove and Storm, and to a lesser extent Laeral; Khelben and Elminster can be included here, as well), you have to come up with reasons why the campaign's issues have to be resolved by the PCs, instead of by Ed's demigods. Why are they unavailable, especially since they know what is said about them, when their aid is asked (they hear, in addition to the Rune of the Chosen, their names, and nicknames, the next nine words that are spoken), and have access to expansive spy networks (being rulers, Harpers, or friends thereof). Sure, when the problem is "local orcs are raiding caravans", it's no problem... that doesn't require the intervention of the Sisters (though most could resolve the immediate problem in an idle afternoon, with little personal risk). However, when the threat is bigger, such as the orcs being in the area since they were driven out of their homes by an even larger menace, you have to wonder "Where are the Sisters" if you're a PC, and decide why they're unavailable if you're a DM. Even novel-writers do this; witness in Realms of the Elves, wherein there's a story about "What is Elminster and other Chosen doing while the Dalelands become a war zone?" In gaming terms, they are either story-telling crutches or stumbling blocks. I prefer my games to involve the PCs as the heroes, gaining their own legend. I find this works better if they're not overshadowed by demigods. I'd point you to The Simbul's post on this very subject (if you haven't already read it). I somehow suspect that it wouldn't change your mind either, but I guess you never know. Lemme see *rummage rummage rummage* *search search search* Here's her post... If Mystra's Chosen are a "problem" for your Forgotten Realms... (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=817656)
Alleran 08-20-07, 09:12 AM	As essentially free agents of great power and good alignment (especially, in this case, Dove and Storm, and to a lesser extent Laeral; Khelben and Elminster can be included here, as well) Khelben was LN, I believe. Mystra's Chosen tend to be good-aligned (or neutral) because Mystra's experience with mortals is that good-aligned ones are more likely to do what she needs them to do than evil-aligned ones, simple as that. However, on the note of them being a problem, I believe the post that the Simbul made and somebody linked to provides an accurate method of keeping them from being a problem. I apply the same to Halaster and Undermountain-specific details. It's one of the biggest graves of adventurers in the Realms, so why should your party encounter Halaster when probably around 95% of the others don't? Now, on the note of what to classify the Seven Sisters as (demigods, quasi-deities, or what-have-you), I class them as DvR 0, but instead of the abilities listed in the SRD, they have the Chosen template applied to their statblock. If the template as given in the FRCS seems incomplete, then note that Ed's words on the subject indicate that there is far more to their capabilities than just what is presented in the aforementioned FRCS, so they can be powered up at the DM's discretion assuming that they're in your campaign.
MarkHall 08-20-07, 12:28 PM	I think you missed my point. The important sentence in that post was "In short, if you squint just the right way and tilt your head just so, they might even seem to be Mary Sueish." I did miss your point; I read it as "If you spin everything the right way and ignore everything that contradicts it, then they're Mary Sues." Thanks for your clarification. By the way MarkHall, the very first paragraph of the post I'm replying to, and the next post you made to Old Sage, make up an excellent argument why they should actually be demigods, and I agree with many of your points. Thanks. I'm wondering if part of this came down to terminology; I called them demigods because I tend to think in real terms first, 2nd edition Realms terms second, and official D&D terms third; demigods is a good word for what they are, though the game term for characters of that power would be quasi-deities. I'd point you to The Simbul's post on this very subject (if you haven't already read it). I somehow suspect that it wouldn't change your mind either, but I guess you never know. Lemme see *rummage rummage rummage* *search search search* Here's her post... If Mystra's Chosen are a "problem" for your Forgotten Realms... (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=817656) I found it to be condescending and poorly thought out. Sure, there's a huge population to Faerun, and a portion of that will be evil*, but it does not stand to reason that there is no chance of the Chosen getting involved in a campaign. If you're set in a common area (such as the Dalelands or the North), in both cases you have at least 2 Chosen who are resident to the area, and are presumably concerned about things that happen there. Sure, they're not going to get involved in some bandits, and they're not going to walk out of every dungeon crawl, brushing dead orcs out of their hair, as the PCs walk up. However, when Obould Many-Arrows and his horde come pouring out of the Spine of the World, or the Zhentarim make another forceful push into the Dalelands, are the Chosen going to sit on their thumbs? Alustriel might not take the field as a war-wizard (though she would if Silverymoon were threatened or beseiged), but is Storm Silverhand going to sit around and let the Dalelands get butchered and enslaved if she is not occupied? What about Dove Falconhand, or the Old Mage himself? If my campaign is down in Tethyr or Calimsham, there's less chance of stumbling over a Chosen; none of them live there. If it's on the Shaar or in Lurien, then I'm unlikely to run into them unless the DM is putting there for a reason; they don't live there, and the groups they're associated with are less powerful there. But we're talking about core areas of the Realms. Saying that there's a lot of people in the world and the Chosen have big things to worry about doesn't wash when you're in their area of the world and big things are going on... and their area of the world happens to be the best detailed. *Though the 3.5 DMG, on page 110, says that 50% of NPCs are evil, it also says that 4% of good NPCs will be paladins, that 20% of good people are Wizards, and doesn't cover NPC classes at all. Oh, and 1% of all evil clerics, fighters, rogues, sorcerers, and wizards will be Mind Flayers. 1% of those will be half-fiend mindflayers. By TheSimbul's numbers, that means that the population of Half-fiend Mindflayer wizards in Faerun is about 510. And that's just the wizards. A better number for mass population is given on page 138, when discussing the alignment of power centers. That puts the average world at 41% good, 35% evil, and 24% neutral.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-20-07, 01:43 PM	No one person can dip their toes in everyone's problems, no matter how powerful they are. Also, who is to say any of the Chosen would want to be involved in X conflict? Regarding the Seven Sisters and whether they are Mary Sues--every one reacts to characters differently. There are characters I've read about that I winded up hating with a passion, but I don't expect everyone to feel the same way I do. Same goes for characters that I adore. I think everyone's made their point about whether or not the Seven Sisters are all identical or Mary Sues, so why not just accept each other's differences and let the subject rest?
MarkHall 08-20-07, 02:03 PM	No one person can dip their toes in everyone's problems, no matter how powerful they are. Also, who is to say any of the Chosen would want to be involved in X conflict? I think I've pointed this out. Heck, it wouldn't be in their characters to remain completely uninvolved in events of sufficient size. They're (mostly) human. They live in certain areas and, presumably, have friends who they don't want to die and/or lose everything. Most are good aligned, which means any threat of sufficient magnitude is going to attract their interest, if not their action.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-20-07, 02:14 PM	Just making a general comment, Mark.:) Nothing I've said was personal.
Zandilar 08-20-07, 06:08 PM	Heya, I think I've pointed this out. Heck, it wouldn't be in their characters to remain completely uninvolved in events of sufficient size. They're (mostly) human. They live in certain areas and, presumably, have friends who they don't want to die and/or lose everything. Most are good aligned, which means any threat of sufficient magnitude is going to attract their interest, if not their action. Well then, this is probably not going to effect your campaigns until they're of sufficient power. From about level 1 to 15, there's no chance a Chosen will intervene. From about level 15 to 20, there's a very small chance the Chosen will intervene directly, they're only slightly more likely to do so indirectly. Epic levels, the chances of both indirect and direct intervention increase the higher level you go. If they do intervene, if it's not something they need to do something about right now, they will almost certainly act through intermediaries - including PCs (even if they don't know they're acting on their behalf). However, in the event of an RSE, of course they're going to intervene directly and personally, it would be unrealistic otherwise. But it won't just be the Chosen, it will be all the major NPCs in a given region... For example, in Cormyr it won't just be Storm and Elminster, it will be Alusair, Caladnei, the War Wizards, the Highknights, the Purple Dragons, individual nobles of varying power etc. In fact, even without an RSE, if you're playing in Cormyr, Caladnei is far more likely to be a player in your PCs lives, for example, at even lower levels than the Chosen (say from about 7th-8th or so onwards). And don't underestimate her based on her levels in the FRCS! She has the full force of the entire War Wizards organization behind her, access to countless obscure and powerful magical items, access to the Highknights and the Purple Dragons, as well as other official and unofficial spy networks (of which Filfaeril, Alusair, and Laspeera all undoubtedly have). So when you think about it, you've got a harder time explaining why Caladnei isn't meddling in Cormyrean PCs lives than explaining why Storm doesn't in the same region.
Narsil 08-20-07, 06:36 PM	I don't know why anyone despises the Chosen of Mystra, beyond some of the silliness Elminster displayed in Elminster in Myth Drannor, because they aren't quite as Realms-shattering as people would like to believe. If you actually read the novels, there's a series of repeated statements to this wee effect here; 'Whenever I look upon mages, I see snakes who use their spells to make folk fear them - like a whip to drive others to obey. Hard, arrogant men who can take a life, or destroy a hall in a few breaths, and not care what they've done, so long as their whims are satisfied.' -Elminster Aumar, prior to becoming a mage ... and... This work took up much of his time in the service of Mystra, these days, at her bidding, Elminster traveled Faerun visiting ruins and the tombs of dead mages, planting "old" scrolls, spellbooks, minor enchanted items, and even the occasional staff for later folk to find...and all such leavings were in truth items he'd just finished Grafting, and made to look old. Almost always, part of the treasures he left for others included notes that should lead anyone with a gift for magic to experiment and successfully create a "new" spell. Mystra cared not overmuch who found these magics, or how they used them...so long as ever more magic was in use and ever more folk could wield it, rather than a few archwizards lording it over the spell-poor or magically barren, as had happened in the days of lost Netheril. El loved this sort of work and always had to fight a tendency to linger in the ruins and crypts, mischievously letting his lights and spell-effects be seen by others, to lure exploring adventurers toward his leavings. -Temptation of Elminster If the Chosen were to start meddling in everything, they would - other than having a massive mental breakdown - be breaking their own personal rules. Let people solve their own problems until it turns into a Realms Shattering Incident, or at least a Rather Big Enough To Be Noticed Several Realms Away Incident.
MarkusTay63 08-20-07, 07:13 PM	Spellplague........ :ghosted: Except for El, I expect most of Ed's characters to dissappear in the new edition. No-one lasts forever... ;)
MerrikCale 08-20-07, 09:01 PM	Because of the way Ed has written about each of them -- in both sourcebooks and novels. And, by extension, through his replies at Candlekeep. I believe I've said this already. and to me, Ed writes them as if they are carbon copies in the novels. Although it has been quite a few years
GothicDan 08-20-07, 09:12 PM	I should really read some more of Ed's stuff. All I know is that I read El in Hell, and while I wasn't a fan of the writing style per se (nor am I a fan of Tolkien's or Steinbeck's and more..), I really loved how El and the Simbul were portrayed.
MerrikCale 08-20-07, 09:15 PM	I should really read some more of Ed's stuff. All I know is that I read El in Hell, and while I wasn't a fan of the writing style per se (nor am I a fan of Tolkien's or Steinbeck's and more..), I really loved how El and the Simbul were portrayed. It was OK. It seems like all of the seven sisters have slept with Edminster somewhere along the way. And none of them have any sense of modesty, or much of a sense of humor, or show much concern when faced with any type of danger.
GothicDan 08-20-07, 10:53 PM	Well, we know that El hasn't slept with all of them - far from it - and I seem to recall some bits in which the Sisters show a sense of humor...
Zandilar 08-21-07, 03:44 AM	Heya, It was OK. It seems like all of the seven sisters have slept with Edminster somewhere along the way. And none of them have any sense of modesty, or much of a sense of humor, or show much concern when faced with any type of danger. I presume "Edminster" was a deliberate misspelling? Try to remember this important fact: The Realms aren't Earth. Realms folk behave differently to Earth folk. The baggage we Earth folk carry around regarding nudity, sex, and sexuality does not exist in the Realms (and if some does exist it's usually practical reasons, such as incest being taboo between individuals who could procreate together, and is usually not to the same degree as it is here in the Real World TM). Saying that they've "all" (:rolleyes:) slept with El, and that they don't seem to show much modesty, is not a bad thing... Remember, people all over the Realms behave in this kind of fashion. One last thing, Ed has always maintained that most of the Chosen of Mystra (at least ones who have been Chosen for a long while) are only marginally sane. Also, if you think El & the Sisters is bad... How about Mirt and Asper? Asper, the girl Mirt raised from the time she was a baby after slaughtering her family and destroying her village, later on was apparently so grateful to him for raising her that she seduced him and later married him.
Old Sage 08-21-07, 08:41 AM	Try to remember this important fact: The Realms aren't Earth. Realms folk behave differently to Earth folk. The baggage we Earth folk carry around regarding nudity, sex, and sexuality does not exist in the Realms (and if some does exist it's usually practical reasons, such as incest being taboo between individuals who could procreate together, and is usually not to the same degree as it is here in the Real World TM). Saying that they've "all" (:rolleyes:) slept with El, and that they don't seem to show much modesty, is not a bad thing... Remember, people all over the Realms behave in this kind of fashion. One last thing, Ed has always maintained that most of the Chosen of Mystra (at least ones who have been Chosen for a long while) are only marginally sane.For further elaboration, see Ed's compiled Candlekeep replies on the subject.
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 06:37 PM	Also, if you think El & the Sisters is bad... How about Mirt and Asper? Asper, the girl Mirt raised from the time she was a baby after slaughtering her family and destroying her village, later on was apparently so grateful to him for raising her that she seduced him and later married him.I believe that Woody Allen would fit right in, in the Realms. ;) Yes, our own 'morays' are greatly predjudiced by our Judaeo-Christian upbringing. Morality is a fairly new concept - just watch a few episodes of Rome to see what pre-Christian humans were like. In fact, marriage has only been around for a few hundred years. Nobles would make a big deal and have a ceremony, but most rural folks would just move-in with each other, and move out when they tired of each other. Most 'primitive cultures' (and I'm talking about everyone from the Vikings to the Aboriginies) would pass women around, and no-one thought anything of it. It's 'animal nature' to do so, and without all of the artificial dogma attached to procreating by the church, we would be just like those 'loving' folks in the Realms. To keep this on topic - I believe Alustriel showed a bit of her humorous side in Blackstaff - so did El, and I found THAT HIGHLY innapropriate. :nonono:
MerrikCale 08-21-07, 09:18 PM	Heya, I presume "Edminster" was a deliberate misspelling? Try to remember this important fact: The Realms aren't Earth. Realms folk behave differently to Earth folk. The baggage we Earth folk carry around regarding nudity, sex, and sexuality does not exist in the Realms (and if some does exist it's usually practical reasons, such as incest being taboo between individuals who could procreate together, and is usually not to the same degree as it is here in the Real World TM). Saying that they've "all" (:rolleyes:) slept with El, and that they don't seem to show much modesty, is not a bad thing... Remember, people all over the Realms behave in this kind of fashion. One last thing, Ed has always maintained that most of the Chosen of Mystra (at least ones who have been Chosen for a long while) are only marginally sane. Also, if you think El & the Sisters is bad... How about Mirt and Asper? Asper, the girl Mirt raised from the time she was a baby after slaughtering her family and destroying her village, later on was apparently so grateful to him for raising her that she seduced him and later married him. You are correct about the misspelling. Funny right? I understand the Realms aren't Earth or even medieval Earth. And I never said lack of modesty was bad. Its just gets boring with these characters after awhile. And yes, Mirt is the Realmsian Woody Allen. Just not as funny or creepy
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-22-07, 01:23 PM	Heya, Well then, this is probably not going to effect your campaigns until they're of sufficient power. From about level 1 to 15, there's no chance a Chosen will intervene. The Chosen can and do intervene in the affairs of "low-level" characters, certainly. But does that mean it has to happen in any given game? Definitely not.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-22-07, 01:27 PM	Well, we know that El hasn't slept with all of them - far from it - and I seem to recall some bits in which the Sisters show a sense of humor... In fact, I've seen the Seven Sisters criticized for being too "silly" or not taking matters seriously enough. They make witty comments all the time. Again, it all goes to show that everyone reacts to characters differently.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-22-07, 01:45 PM	Spellplague........ :ghosted: Except for El, I expect most of Ed's characters to dissappear in the new edition. No-one lasts forever... ;) You keep repeating this idea (most mages will die as a result of this Spellplague) but I've yet to see any sources for it? We know a huge event called the Spellplague is coming (not for MY Realms, but I digress...), but we have not been officially told exactly what it is, or what its effects will be.
Zandilar 08-22-07, 06:27 PM	Heya, You keep repeating this idea (most mages will die as a result of this Spellplague) but I've yet to see any sources for it? Maybe he's hoping if he repeats it enough it will be true? Anyway, this has kind of disturbed me... I've posted a question for Ed on Candlekeep about it... Now I probably won't get an answer due to NDAs, but hopefully I've kept it vague enough that I'll get something to come back here with. We'll have to see. We know a huge event called the Spellplague is coming (not for MY Realms, but I digress...), but we have not been officially told exactly what it is, or what its effects will be. I might have the plague happen, especially if I do end up getting 4th Ed. But I doubt I'll let it off my favorite characters - even if they're gone officially.
Zandilar 08-22-07, 06:50 PM	Heya, You are correct about the misspelling. Funny right? It's amusing, but not because it's true. I understand the Realms aren't Earth or even medieval Earth. And I never said lack of modesty was bad. Its just gets boring with these characters after awhile. You did imply it, though. If they all have slept with El, so what? What's the problem? Your statement in that post implied that this (and the lack of modesty) was a bad thing. Of course, what you said isn't true. Of the Seven, Storm is close to El and probably has slept with him, and the Simbul, one of the Seven he didn't specifically raise (unlike Storm), is in love with him and wants his child, and we know she's definitely sleeping with him every chance she gets! Is there something wrong with either case? There are four sisters we know who seem to have a particular disregard for modesty.... (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, though.) The Simbul, who really doesn't care what anyone thinks of her in the first place, so why does she have to be worried by little things like the way she dresses? Why can't she dress the way she likes, even if it is a whole wardrobe of tattered black dresses? Also, magical fire can be a real killer to clothes, let me tell you. Storm Silverhand believes in the virtue of labouring au natural, like chopping wood. At least she is practical enough to wear boots and gloves while doing so. Alustriel, has lust in her name (literally), and she isn't backwards in coming forwards when it comes to physical intimacy - it's how she shows her love for those close to her. So her lack of modesty is no surprise. Qilue, as a priestess of Eilistraee, she dances naked beneath the moon with her sisters. I don't believe she's as immodest as the other three of her sisters mentioned here. And yes, Mirt is the Realmsian Woody Allen. Just not as funny or creepy Not as creepy? I think he's more creepy, personally. I don't like Mirt, and I really can't see what Asper sees in him. Maybe it's because we've seen so little of the wheezing old warhorse and his barely out of her teens daughter-wife. Please forgive my rather scatter-shot/brained post here, I'm up far earlier than I wanted to be, and decaf just isn't the same. :(
MerrikCale 08-22-07, 09:21 PM	You did imply it, though. If they all have slept with El, so what? What's the problem? Your statement in that post implied that this (and the lack of modesty) was a bad thing. ( I don't think lack of modesty or "sleeping with Edminster" is necessarily a bad thing, its just tedious when all the characters are like that. As with the "laughing in face of death" bit, its OK but not when its constant. Its dull. Thats how I feel about these characters, they're dull. And sure Mirt is creepy. But Mr. Allen is uber-creepy
MarkHall 08-22-07, 09:57 PM	In fact, marriage has only been around for a few hundred years. Nobles would make a big deal and have a ceremony, but most rural folks would just move-in with each other, and move out when they tired of each other. Most 'primitive cultures' (and I'm talking about everyone from the Vikings to the Aboriginies) would pass women around, and no-one thought anything of it. It's 'animal nature' to do so, and without all of the artificial dogma attached to procreating by the church, we would be just like those 'loving' folks in the Realms. I'm afraid you are wrong. You've got the Romans, who were pretty well documented for their marriages. Amongst the upper classes, it was a system of alliances (Caesar and Pompey were both serial spouses; they weren't faithful, by our standards, but they were married). Several Viking sagas go into detail about marriage ceremonies; the religions of the Norse, Romans, Egyptians, and Greeks all had clear ideas of marriage relationships amongst their deities. There are a couple differences between their marriage and our marriage, however. First of all, many of their marriages were undertaken for alliance purposes, especially in the upper levels of society; while at the lower levels of society, people would marry as they wished, marrying X because they were related to Y was common in the upper levels of society. The second major difference was the principle of ownership of the bride. In most cases, the wife was legally considered to be passing from the ownership of her father into the ownership of her husband; this is well illustrated by the Roman concept of paterfamilias, in that the head of a family could kill any member of the family without legal repercussions; when a woman married, her father ceased to be her paterfamilias, and her husband became her paterfamilias. The Norse modified this somewhat; a divorced, or especially widowed, woman had a large amount of control over her own property. But to say that marriage has only been around for a few hundred years is inaccurate.
MarkusTay63 08-23-07, 12:02 AM	Modern marriage, with its concept of Monogamy, is not that old. It was considered perfectly acceptable for a man to do what he wanted to whom he wanted, especially when away from home. Also, the modern concept considers marriage a partnership, whereas the older idea (ideal?) was that a woman was nothing more then a man's property. Rural peasants did not have the money for ceremonies, or anything to provide the bride with a dowery, ergo they just 'moved in together', and were consider married from that point on. The nobility and upper classes only account for a very tiny percentage of the population.
Alleran 08-23-07, 02:14 AM	It was considered perfectly acceptable for a man to do what he wanted to whom he wanted, especially when away from home. Wait, you mean we can't do that now? :confused: ;)
GothicDan 08-23-07, 03:25 AM	Marriage as it's currently defined under United States law has only been (roughly) around for a few hundred years. The sort of agreements of the past between spouses were largely different enough to be considered entirely different things.
Galad 08-23-07, 08:19 AM	Wait, you mean we can't do that now? :confused: ;) I don't know about yours but my wife has focus and specialization in frying pan so I just am not taking that chance. :eek:
Alleran 08-23-07, 08:36 AM	Does she have Overwhelming Critical in it, though? Or any Epic-level stuff? You should be able to tank it without too much trouble unless she casts the Level 9 version of Divorce on you. :)
421 08-23-07, 09:24 AM	Divorce is not such a bad spell, unfortunately it is usually cast with Summon Layer which is a nasty bit of spellwork.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-23-07, 01:11 PM	Heya, Maybe he's hoping if he repeats it enough it will be true? Anyway, this has kind of disturbed me... I've posted a question for Ed on Candlekeep about it... Now I probably won't get an answer due to NDAs, but hopefully I've kept it vague enough that I'll get something to come back here with. We'll have to see. The idea disturbs me as well, because unlike some people I actually like characters like the Seven Sisters, the Chosen of Mystra, and all the other powerful wizards that often get complained about. Thanks for asking Ed about this, but like you I have the feeling he can't tell us much. PS: I recall Ed saying that Storm never slept with Elminster. :)
MarkusTay63 08-23-07, 04:46 PM	DAMN! You mean he missed one? ;) Did you here about the time Alusair met Elminster? That was when she dissappeareed for three years - still not sure who won THAT contest, though. :P Does she have Overwhelming Critical in it, though? Or any Epic-level stuff? You should be able to tank it without too much trouble unless she casts the Level 9 version of Divorce on you. :)My wife had a +3 Rollingpin with the Belittle Husband in Public special property. I cast Divorce on her last year. :D
GothicDan 08-23-07, 07:09 PM	Isn't the only Sister that El's slept with in explicit canon, the Simbul?
MarkHall 08-23-07, 07:23 PM	I cast Divorce on her last year. :D I'm in the middle of that ritual magic right now.
Zandilar 08-23-07, 10:08 PM	Heya, The idea disturbs me as well, because unlike some people I actually like characters like the Seven Sisters, the Chosen of Mystra, and all the other powerful wizards that often get complained about. Thanks for asking Ed about this, but like you I have the feeling he can't tell us much. I like them too, very much. In a genre that's often starved for strong female characters (heroes rather than supporting characters), the Seven Sisters are a breath of fresh air. I suppose if most of them go, then at least I'll still have Alusair, Caladnei, Myrmeen, and the women of Cormyr... Oh wait. 10 years later - Alusair will married with kids of her own, and be on the verge of stepping aside as Regent for her nephew (Azoun V) to be King, Caladnei will be grooming Myrmeen's child to replace her in the fullness of time (who will inevitably be a son and, for those who don't know, is Vangerdahast's heir), and Myrmeen will... be Myrmeen, I suppose... Alone still, her adopted daughter Krystin still MIA. So, I lose both ways. :( (Please note, the speculations about Cormyr are speculations, and pessimistic ones at that. I really don't know anything!) PS: I recall Ed saying that Storm never slept with Elminster. :) I vaguely recall that, though I don't think he said she'd never slept with him... however, context is important... Sleeping with someone and sleeping with someone are two different things. ;) I seem to recall something about Ed saying they'd not been "together that way"... He said something about them sharing a deep and intimate friendship, and being completely comfortable around each other, to the point where they could or would sleep together - which, of course, doesn't automatically mean they were having sex... I'd be bothered only because I like Storm and find Ed's track record (which doesn't really do him any favours, unfortunately) of paring nubile young (seeming in some cases) ladies, with elderly and/or fat and/or hairy men to be disturbing. Not to mention I'm fairly biased and wouldn't mind seeing some of these so called bisexual females (Storm, and Myrmeen too, among others) being in a relationship with a member of the same sex for once (but I don't think that's ever going to happen :nonono:). As far as Storm actually sleeping with Elminster goes - some people will see only what they want to see, and I'm beginning to think that there's no point trying to dissuade them... Edit: GothicDan, you are correct. :) Though I think I recall El and Storm sharing a campfire together and sleeping side by side - but that doesn't count. ;)
MarkusTay63 08-24-07, 01:48 AM	I'm sure Storm will stay, as will Dove - neither one of them are really heavy-hitters. The Silver Marches (Luruar) is a fairly new kingdom, so I don't see them killing off Alustriel either. If Thay falls, the Simbul may have to go for balance, and I can see Khelben's squeeze following him into oblivion (and the new Blackstaff raising the baby). There's really no reason to kill Qilue, but several plots are coming to a head right now, so the whole deal with Lolth might have some effect on her and her patron - only time will tell. Once again, I KNOW nothing... these are just random musings of mine. ;) I would like to see Storm in a bisexual relationship as well... perhaps with Alusair... Mmmmm.... You'll have to excuse me....
Zandilar 08-24-07, 08:31 AM	Heya, I'm sure Storm will stay, as will Dove - neither one of them are really heavy-hitters. The Silver Marches (Luruar) is a fairly new kingdom, so I don't see them killing off Alustriel either. If Thay falls, te Simbul may have to go for balance, and I can see Khelben's squeeze following him into oblivion (and the new Blackstaff raising the baby). There's really no reason to kill Qilue, but several plots are coming to a head right now, so the whole deal with Lolth might have some effect on her and her patron - only time will tell. Laeral, aside from actually being pregnant with twins, isn't likely to be joining Khelben so soon... I think it would be interesting to see what happens when Laeral and Tsarra spend any length of time together. ;) So I hope they don't off her. I think you underestimate Storm as far as who is and who is not a heavy hitter. :) Dove, though, I agree with you completely. As for the Simbul... I don't think she'll be gone any time soon. Mystra needs her loose cannon. Once again, I KNOW nothing... these are just random musings of mine. ;) I would like to see Storm in a bisexual relationship as well... perhaps with Alusair... Mmmmm.... You'll have to excuse me.... Storm might be able to appeal to Alusair's more physical side... But she'd be one of the very few women in the Realms who would. ;) Personally, I'm not into fighting my lover (and not holding back) before sex... Just doesn't do it for me.
GothicDan 08-24-07, 03:11 PM	I think that the Simbul will stay - as Zandilar said, Mystra needs her loose cannon. She's sort of Mystra's "battle mage." Or I could see her becoming a sort of demigod/'patron saint' of the church. Alustriel, I agree, isn't going anywhere. Laeral I don't WANT to see go, but I think that WotC might see the new Blackstaff as a way to more realistically give the setting the new, lower level hype. Though I REALLY want to see what becomes of the child of two Chosen of Mystra! (Simbul and El's child is still a scary possibility... Maybe he'd inherit his mother's hotness and passion, and his father's intelligence and charm... I think I'm theoretically in love.) Fighting lovers. Mmm, hello Tempus in my bed.
Zandilar 08-24-07, 07:26 PM	Heya, Laeral I don't WANT to see go, but I think that WotC might see the new Blackstaff as a way to more realistically give the setting the new, lower level hype. Though I REALLY want to see what becomes of the child of two Chosen of Mystra! (Simbul and El's child is still a scary possibility... Maybe he'd inherit his mother's hotness and passion, and his father's intelligence and charm... I think I'm theoretically in love.) The "just" had Tanalasta die in the process of giving birth to Azoun V. I sincerely hope they don't take another mother away from her children. That is completely the wrong message to send. Fighting lovers. Mmm, hello Tempus in my bed. Even if it results in broken bones before hand? I can see that getting in the way of things. :)
SirUrza 08-24-07, 08:02 PM	Heya, Oh! Oh! Let me try! :D They're high level characters who are favoured of the most powerful deity in Faerun.Expanding this a little further (and please, don't assume I'm accusing people of being sexist here)... They're all female, they have silver hair, they are unusually long lived, most of them appear to be in their early middle age and are gorgeous (and one's a ghost, which surely appeals to the goths and the emos, and one's a drow, which appeals to the emos and Drizzt fanbois). They can't seem to do anything wrong (at least for anyone who just glosses over their histories and stories). Oh, and they have all the guys and half the girls fawning over them. :rolleyes: (Not to mention that a few among their number are also bisexual, and Alustriel likes to throw orgies just for fun, but I'm sure alternate sexualities aren't really an issue. Dang.. you just listed the reasons I like them.. should I feel bad? :weep:
kaor 08-24-07, 08:24 PM	Hmmm, let me guess: all the bisexuals referred to are women, right? Orgies? Where did that reference come from? I'm surprised that would ever have been in a novel or sourcebook.
SirUrza 08-24-07, 08:28 PM	As far as we know, the Seven Sisters are all woman, so yes bisexual = interest in women as well as men. As for the orgies, comes from Ed himself.. besides, Alustriel has quiet the suggestive nickname that has been used in the novels. ;) This from Ed... http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ed-alustriel.htm
kaor 08-24-07, 09:01 PM	You know a literary critic could have a field day deconstructing Realmslore. Not to mention a psychiatrist.
MerrikCale 08-24-07, 09:05 PM	Hmmm, let me guess: all the bisexuals referred to are women, right? Orgies? Where did that reference come from? I'm surprised that would ever have been in a novel or sourcebook. Lets face facts, the vast majority of D&D players and D&D novel readers are male
SirUrza 08-24-07, 09:06 PM	Until Elminster chases it one out. :)
Old Sage 08-24-07, 09:17 PM	Laeral I don't WANT to see go, but I think that WotC might see the new Blackstaff as a way to more realistically give the setting the new, lower level hype. Though I REALLY want to see what becomes of the child of two Chosen of Mystra! (Simbul and El's child is still a scary possibility... Maybe he'd inherit his mother's hotness and passion, and his father's intelligence and charm... I think I'm theoretically in love.)Regarding Laeral, this bit comes from Steven, back in Sep. '06:- "Oh, and Laeral's not going off anywhere; I thought I left it clear that she's staying in Rhymanthiin, at least until the twins are born." And this, also from Sep. '06:- "FIrst, I have to acknowledge that I've got no control over what WotC or another author does with Laeral. That said, I assume she'll have some minimal contact with Blackstaff Tower, if only to claim some of her things sent over to the new Blackstaff Tower (whose elven name I'm blanking on, as I've not had coffee yet) in Rhymanthiin. If it were up to me, Laeral wouldn't set foot in Blackstaff Tower for the next 5-10 years at the least--the pain's too raw (and as another example, reread how she reacted to his death in Stornanter). But I've learned to never say never.....especially since I don't get to write the Adventures of Laeral and the Blackstaff's Babies." And it's entirely possible Steven will elaborate more on the twins in Blackstaff Tower [Autumn '08] -- the sequel to his incredible Blackstaff novel.
Old Sage 08-24-07, 09:18 PM	Orgies? Where did that reference come from? I'm surprised that would ever have been in a novel or sourcebook.Actually, orgies have been mentioned in several Realms sources -- 'The City' book from the Menzoberranzan boxed set immediately comes to mind.
Old Sage 08-24-07, 09:19 PM	Re: orgies, love and relationships From Ed:- "September 10, 2004: Hello to all scribes. Ed is still up to the end of his beard in family and other matters, but I managed to shift the longhaired cat who is the only fetching young lady on my naked lap (sorry, Karth) aside long enough to pound out a query to the Creator of the Realms, and managed to catch him late at night, as he arrived home and start wading through his e-mail (queries from Hollywood types into the “not bloody likely” folder; queries from game companies into the “groan, like I have TIME” folder; queries from editors into the “grovel quickly, ASAP” folder, and so on :} ). He sent this reply: Zandilar, the quick answer to your initial question is that every time I try to write anything non-standard regarding gender and characters who are “strong”/dominant or “weak”/submissive [strong females paired or interacting with weaker males, for example, such as Shandril and Narm] my editors have fits (“Doesn’t fit our readership! Will hurt sales! Must fix at once!”). Such things “don’t fit” the genre expectations. In various ways, there’s been a (usually friendly) tug-of-war between me and TSR/WotC/Hasbro over various details of the Realms since my first hints of the Realms were published in (what was then) “The Dragon” back in 1979. The “original” Realms, “my” Realms, was my own imaginary fantasy setting for fiction before D&D® ever existed, and then my own D&D campaign world for years before it became an “official” D&D® setting. It was purchased to be the official ‘home’ of the 2nd Edition D&D® game, and therefore by definition had to be, and still must be, ‘all things to all people.’ In light of that prime philosophy and publishing need, it’s foolish to upset some Realms fans by stating matters too baldly and being too definite when we (various Realms designers and authors) can HINT to our collective hearts’ content -- and in doing so, leave DMs full leeway to run particular characters however best suits their principles and preferences. In fact, it’s ALWAYS better design work to hint (“Elminster says he’s heard of many orc sightings in and about the ruins”) rather than stating things too precisely (“There are six orcs and one hobgoblin in the ruins, and they’ll be found waiting for PCs in the following rooms . . .”). Hence the very existence of unreliable narrators such as Elminster, and storytelling colour (“fluff” to some) over rules stats in most Realms writings. The Realms is people (characters) and THEIR STORIES, not stats -- and not merely their bedchamber preferences, either. It should come as news to no one that many consumers, particularly in the United States, have religious and societal views that clash with in-thy-face lesbian, gay male, and bisexual lifestyles. With that said, yes there are a LOT of “non-modern-real-world-American-mores-standard” relationships in the Realms. I don’t make a big issue of it for several reasons. First, offending some fans as referred to above. Secondly, TSR Code of Ethics/WotC and Hasbro Code of Conduct prohibitions (e.g. on sodomy, incest, etc.) and editorial censorship, which has (as some scribes have already noted) by and large been relaxing over the years, but has occasionally reached ridiculous heights. For example, I once had a fight with a DRAGON assistant editor over an article (which I refused to finish, under such conditions) wherein I wrote that many Arthurian tales describe Lancelot and Guinevere as “lovers,” and was told that I couldn’t use the word “lovers” or IN ANY WAY IMPLY extramarital sex (i.e. Arthur could be assumed to make love to his wife so long as I made no direct reference to it, but I couldn’t even hint that someone else could). Sheesh. I directed the editor to the standard roster of Greek and Roman myths, legends, and fables for hardcore sexual hijinks, but she dismissed my point as irrelevant. So what you correctly refer to as “dance around definitions,” Zandilar, is how staffers at WotC have to operate, and merely good business sense (again, those who wish to read the obvious hints re. lifestyles can do so, and those offended by such matters don’t get their noses rubbed in it so harshly that it ruins their enjoyment of the setting). simontrinity is correct in saying that I can go much farther in sexual matters (and, yes, innuendo, which I enjoy) these days than I could when I started writing Realms books. So the horizons ARE widening. However, my great friend and Realms-champion Steven Schend has, as usual, already said it best in this thread: that we shouldn’t be defining characters by their sexual preferences. There’s far more to people than their jobs, or their hobbies, or how they like to dress, or how they engage in sexual behaviour. I’ve actually written many gay (and far more bi- ) males and females into the Realms that NO ONE recognizes as such, purely because they DON’T adopt modern real-world sterotypical styles (such as so-called “butch” behaviour or effeminate “limp-wristed and lisping”). In “my” Realms, there’s no general prejudice against love of same gender or love of both genders. There ARE individuals who hold such prejudices, and in general, members of nobility or royalty or any other group in which lineage and inheritance is important frown on deviance from whatever their locally accepted norm of pairing is, so that “the line can be maintained in a clear, can’t-be-challenged manner.” I’m not sure if you’ll see a clearly lesbian or gay male character in a novel soon, because the only way to give them that status “clearly” is to engage in protracted sex scenes, which are seldom okay with editors (a story would have to be constructed that would make such matters integral to the plotline and not “gratuitous,” and although I can and have written colourful porn, it’s not something WotC would welcome in the Realms line). Let’s just see how far I can go in the Knights novels, shall we? :} And yes, I regard your problem (“I personally would love to see characters in the Realms that I can personally relate to, and I keep coming up short.”) as something that Realms fiction as a whole should address, for as wide a variety of Realms readers as we can collectively manage. So in design or creative terms, there is or should be a “place at the table” for, say, openly lesbian characters. Bear in mind, however, that many Realms fans delight in pouncing on me for being a dirty-minded “pervert” (most of them, of course, not even understanding the meaning of that word) for merely showing casual nudity, kissing, caresses, and even footrubs in my fiction . . . things many Canadians (and, from my conversations with them, more than a few Americans) who went to summer camp in their teens accepted as normal in such settings. (And being as the Realms is “my” setting, *I* get to define what is ‘normal’ in the Realms; that’s even in the original Realms agreement). So let me turn this matter back to fellow scribes: how much overt sex would YOU like to read in, say, Ed Greenwood-penned Realms novels? Where’s the “line of comfort” for you? (I seriously want to read posted opinions here, without offending Alaundo or others by getting too explicit. Anyone who’s attended any of the annual Spin A Yarn seminars at GenCon knows that although my own flirtations encourage Realms fans to delve into matters “blue,” they’re always VERY eager to do so. I encourage the racy stuff, but the audience provides it.) On to polyamory (committed relationships): quite common in backlands Realms villages, often ‘dressed up’ in annual festival customs (such as Midsummer Night) to make the maximum number of people comfortable with it. In many farming and frontier areas of the Realms, “families” dwelling and working together may consist of several males and several females, not “one-man-one-woman.” Again, don’t expect this to be underscored in print in official products, because it points towards incest and the polygamous controversies current in some American states, and in general upsets some folks who might otherwise happily buy Realms products. Remember the editorial fits I caused just mentioning brothelsXXXX ahem, “festhalls.” My view was that I was just reporting, a la National Geographic: ‘The native women have long, floppy . . .’ and the TSR editors disagreed violently. BTW, the very existence of all those brothels point to the number of men and women in the Realms who want casual sex, or who don’t get what they want at home, or who don’t want to wait until they get home. Sex IS alive and well in the Realms. Please also always remember that the long-lived members of the Chosen are EXCEPTIONS to the rules: their very longevity and loss of sanity leads them to grasp at affection whenever they can, and to consider themselves so far beyond all notions of prudishness and propriety (they’ve outlived entire kingdoms full of social thou-shalt-nots, and been around long enough to see many priesthoods make major changes in doctrine) that they just don’t care what others may think of them -- unless they need the support and aid of particular “others” at the moment. So, yes, Alustriel does take pleasure in hosting orgies in which she physically enjoys both males and females, and lots of them enjoy each other, and lah dee dee dah dah. This does not make her a nymphomaniac, an empty-headed lust bunny, or deficient in any way. In fact, she’s achieved more through seduction and founding firm friendships and making others long for another chance to dive into the comfort of one of Alustriel’s large and well-filled baths than many rulers ever manage with dozens of treaties and scores of wars, skirmishes, and threats. If you need validation, yes, Alustriel and Zelauma make love. Storm makes love with both guys and gals (the Harpers don’t regard her as a ‘den mother’ for nothing :} ). Think of her as the comforting arms they run to, for advice and soothing companionship and understanding. However, she does as much listening and dispensing warm soup as she does riding and being ridden. I hesitate to wander around identifying major NPCs as gay males or females, because someone else reading this may be far more comfortable in their use of the Realms if I never put such notions into their heads regarding particular characters. So let me say just this much: most males in the Realms weep, hug, and even caress and kiss as much as real-world modern females do. How comfortable a given character is with doing such things with others of the same gender (or, for that matter, with persons of different races) varies widely -- but it’s safe to say that given the opportunity, most characters have “tried everything” at least once, and between travelers outside their own communities (where such acts might well upset family members, especially if loss of virginity is involved), there’s little or no stigma in such experimentation. Please note the full implications of this: if your character in the Realms is part of an adventuring “party” and female or male characters in that party hop from bedroll to bedroll as nights on the trail pass, those bed-hoppers WILL NOT be generally viewed as “loose” or “perverted.” Note that I said “generally.” Couples in committed relationships whose partner goes off jumping the bones of others without prearrangement are going to feel just as hurt and betrayed as you might expect. Moreover, some characters will be uncomfortable with such behaviour, sometimes for religious reasons. Myself, I see this as best left to the roleplaying chemistry of individual gaming groups rather than shoved down anyone’s throat by my or anyone else’s Realms writings. However, Zandilar, just between you and me (and of course everyone across the world with Net access who reads this :} ): I personally happen to be a guy who likes gals, but I’m quite comfortable kissing, hugging, and even caressing or comforting guys. Such activities don’t happen to turn me on sexually. I’m a “toucher,” and always have been: I hug and kiss a lot, perhaps more naturally than I shake hands (when greeting females formally, I was taught to kneel and kiss their hands). However, I know that such close contact gives a lot of people the creeps, and I have utterly no interest in upsetting people outside of a roleplaying session in which we’re both acting: if someone goes red or jerks away from me, oops: MY bad. That’s why I don’t want to write too forcefully about such things. But I hint like crazy. Steven not only expressed Khelben and Laeral’s relationship perfectly, he directed you to some of his character writeups for a look-see, and I’ll do the same: look back over my Realms writings (such as the NPC sections of the Volo’s Guides) and the hints are there. Bushels of them, in fact. :} Although overly aggressive butch lesbian behaviour and over-the-top prancing ‘mincing’ gay male behaviour both strike me as ridiculous, the relationships underlying them (including the physical sides of such relationships) do not. When the lesbians who happen to own the cottage four down from mine go out on their dock at dusk to make love, I don’t yell angrily at them, ridicule them, or rudely watch them, but if I happen to be out on my point (which is high enough to overlook their dock), I’ll smile and wave at first sight and then carry on as if they’re not doing anything. This has led to them in turn casually accepting my distant presence: they usually make love, then plunge in for a dip that includes lots of splashing and laughter, and then they climb back out on the dock to dry off (if the night’s too cold or mosquito-ridden for that, it’s on with the towels and back inside). Either way, they usually wave and call “good night” as they go. That’s the same style and balance I’d like to strike in my Realms writings: casual acceptance of such matters for those interested in them, and a tacit agreement to overlook them for those who aren’t. With the ground prepared, so to speak, I can now tackle your query about strong female characters choosing older, fatter, hairier males. (And for readers waiting to denounce this as my personal sexual wish-fulfillment, I proffer three words: oh, grow up. I did, after all, establish these characters and relationships when I was a skinny, young, bespectacled nerd of a youngster who never thought he’d ever either get fat or grow a beard. Old, yes, I knew that would happen if I didn’t get myself killed. But I digress. :} ) My point in depicting several “gals like old fat hairy males” relationships was deliberately to point out that these particular females chose what they wanted, and it wasn’t “brainless handsome hunks” but rather men with wits and characters they could respect. For example, in the case of Mirt and Asper, I wanted to show a Realms instance of something that happened many times in real-world past history: a young ward growing up to genuinely love her much older guardian (yes, I’m well aware that there were even more real-world instances of guardians forcing themselves on their wards, or marrying them over their objections). I’ve written a story that you’ll probably never see (because it does include several explicit love scenes) wherein Mirt uncomfortably rebuffs his increasingly amorous ‘little girl,’ and succeeds only in driving the past-puberty-and-in-the-thrall-of-raging-hormones Asper to seduce him: she’s taken her measure of a lot of men in Waterdeep, and decided the man who raised her is the best, and she’ll have HIM, thank-you-very-much. I, too, don’t like gals to collapse into mush whenever Macho Hero Number 36 strides manfully onto the scene. However, I have written several scenes in which women who know quite well that their physical strength and personal social standing can’t win them a clear victory over Mister Macho, and who have enough personal self-confidence not to have to be seen to “win” every moment, do the collapse act to manipulate Macho into doing what they wanted, WITHOUT a large and damaging conflict. MY pet-hate, never-want-to-write characters are STUPID females (except as passing villains who get what they deserve). What sort of things would you like to know about Caladnei of Cormyr? I didn’t create her, but have used her in my Realms of Shadow story and in Elminster’s Daughter (the mind-meld sequences therein shared important highlights of her personal ‘back story’ with readers), and plan to reveal more of her in tales to come. To some extent, the Royal Magician of Cormyr must have some ‘air of mystery’ to be effective, and Caladnei is very much ‘learning on the job’ and growing and changing in doing so. (And if it’s hints of lesbianism you’re looking for, take a good look at Caladnei and Alusair in that Realms of Shadow story.) I’m not sure how soon Laeral of Loudwater will reappear in print. It depends on a lot of not-yet-settled projects, but is unlikely to be less than three years or so. You may in a year or so see a rather powerful story concerning Alusair and her sexuality. Or may not; again, we’ll have to see. Regarding slash: although I’m well aware that in this age of instant Net publishing examples of slash writing can be distressing to some authors, I personally have no trouble with it, so long as it’s always made clear it’s not the work of the original author. Satire defenses aside, I also fully understand when someone is upset by a depiction of his or her character and tries to vigorously defend the original by legally punishing the writer of the slash, or getting the slash removed from circulation, and so on. However, I regard all fannish writing as something humans DO. Have always done. In the same way that children play with dolls, readers play with characters they develop an affection (or love-hate) for. I have read some wonderfully affectionate fan writings about the Realms, and some vicious and hilarious slash about Realms characters. (The one in which Elminster was magically cursed to continuously grow breasts and ******s that roamed around the surface of his body, whilst he exuded an aroma that made all humans and elves [especially drow, OF COURSE] around him mad with lust for him, had me rolling on the floor whooping with laughter. I just wish the writer had been competent enough to go on to tell a good story after the few vivid scenes of debauchery. But I digress again. :} ) I hope I’ve answered your questions without overly offending anyone, Zandilar and other scribes. As you can probably tell, I’m not shy about discussing such topics, and I’m sure Alaundo and Tethtoril will step in if they think matters are getting (ahem) out of hand, so if you’ve follow-up questions, feel free. However, folks, please let’s NOT get into an endless round of “So is Manshoon gay? Is Fzoul? Okay, how about Larloch?” I would hope there are more things to talk about in the Realms than that. So saith Ed. Thy Hooded One will demurely add just this much to the words of the Master: Ed can parody the mincing male homosexual with devastating verve while DMing, and in our original Realms group (never shy about matters sexual) could, ahem, bring to colourful life orgies, the entry of the Knights into brothels or bedchambers, and so on. However, I’ve also seen him “turn off” this side of play completely when running sessions of younger gamers at GenCons: as he said, it’s all about what your particular gaming groups want the Realms to be for them. And in the interests of full disclosure: I’m happily heterosexual but have enjoyed several lesbian relationships of the “cozy longtime friends who enjoy occasional fun sex” variety. And I happily offer my shoulders, back, and feet to Ed to rub whenever he’s within reach, because he’s so good at it -- and DOESN’T expect it to lead to our leaping onto the gaming table together for wild sex in the next few minutes. (Though, if he ever offered . . .) Love to all, THO" More from Ed, from July '05, re: Shieldmeet-related festivities of Silverymoon "MIDSUMMER: The Feast of Love. No shops are open past highsun on this day. At highsun, small feasts (private meals) begin, and open public lovemaking begins. Many folk don’t take part, and stay home in their shuttered rooms, but the majority of citizens wander, watching or fondling or diving right in and participating in sex acts with those who beckon. Open doors are invitations to all, priests cast curative spells against diseases for free, orgies and public nudity and dalliance are commonplace, and even staid old Silvaeren tell off-colour jokes or make frank, lewd remarks or praisings they’d never dream of daring to utter on any other day (and to which those they are made to are supposed not to react, “forgetting” everything that happened on Midsummer after the next dawn). Traditionally, Alustriel makes love to all sorts of strangers of both genders and many races, and leads a “Hunt of Maidens” (which of course is nothing of the sort, but rather a hunt for a specific mask - - or rather, the person wearing it - - through various gardens) after the moon rises. Clergy of Loviatar and Ilmater give demonstrations involving lovemaking, and various wealthy folk with large homes host parties at which naughty games are held (eating various sweet desserts off the bared bodies of fellow revellers is a favourite tradition)." And because I was curious about an aforementioned reference to halfling orgies, here's another bit from Ed:- "Oh, and a postscript from Ed, re. halfling orgies: to The Sage, it’s not the exotic foods so much as it’s how far they can SLIDE in exotic foods."
GothicDan 08-24-07, 10:42 PM	Wow. Hasbro still has policies regarding sodomy? It's funny that I consider 'standard' intercourse to be something worthy of making me nearly vomit thinking about it... If my rainbow flag was bigger I'd be ranting. ;)
MerrikCale 08-24-07, 10:56 PM	Wow. Hasbro still has policies regarding sodomy? I thought there were still states that have sodomy as being illegal
GothicDan 08-24-07, 11:02 PM	There are. Though I'm almost sure that if someone was actually 'persecuted' for it, it'd probably go to the Supreme Court and get shot down.
MerrikCale 08-24-07, 11:10 PM	There are. Though I'm almost sure that if someone was actually 'persecuted' for it, it'd probably go to the Supreme Court and get shot down. Actually, they did. I believe the case was called Harwick v something or other and stemmed from a law in the South. Somehow, the SC upheld the law and said it did not violate the Right to Privacy. This was still the law back in the late 90s when I was in law school. That case (which had been good law for 15 to 20 years) may or may not have been overturned since.
GothicDan 08-24-07, 11:16 PM	Interesting! You should keep more informed so you tell me these things.
MerrikCale 08-24-07, 11:25 PM	Interesting! You should keep more informed so you tell me these things. If I practiced Constitutional Law I would know it, but since I don't I am not sure it is good law. All I can tell you it was good law 8 or 9 years ago. One would hope they have since overturned that ridiculous decision.
GothicDan 08-24-07, 11:48 PM	One would hope so, indeed! Even if I'm not a big fan of sodomy. I'm so weird.
MarkHall 08-24-07, 11:55 PM	There are. Though I'm almost sure that if someone was actually 'persecuted' for it, it'd probably go to the Supreme Court and get shot down. Again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy#Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States FWIW, I imagine that there are individuals of noble families in the Realms who might usually be consider "gay", but who "take one for the team" in their family's case, having the one or two vital heirs, then go back to their discrete lovers. I would also be willing to bet that the church of Chauntea, at the very least, has low-level spells which can control a person's fertility.
GothicDan 08-24-07, 11:59 PM	I'm happy that they're being overturned. But the military inference that same-sex sodomy is on the same level as bestiality is just... Well. Let's just say I'm pretty disapproving of this.
kaor 08-25-07, 01:01 AM	I read that Ed Greenwood thing the Sage posted. Normally I just skim over Greenwood writings (I've never been able to finish one of his works of fiction), but I read this twice. Things must be very, very different in Canada. Because based on my experiences his knowledge of human nature is so poor, it's not even wrong. I can just picture going to one of those polyamour get-togethers, and reading that to a bunch of alternatively lifestyled people, while dressed as Elminster. It would probably all be in the delivery but I bet it would be good for 5 minutes of solid laughter. And on the previous page I read about Alustriel being a, well, deepspawn. Spitting 'em out every nine months. "Mother who was my Father?" "Err T'el Keuss-Nigh Oth-Myun (Elven for number '1,382', got to number in Elven. And she ran out of names long ago.), I don't really remember. Or maybe I just don't know, it is so hard to tell without divinatory magic. Tee-hee, and if I did that I'd never stop!" "Mother! I'm T'el Diir-Kris Yhr-Paiih! (Number 1,265)" She must have a dormitory just for her own children. D&D isn't a realistic genre. But come on. Read this thread. Read what is posted. This is some silly, silly stuff.
MarkHall 08-25-07, 01:02 AM	The military has always been weird on this. I'm guessing that it won't last too much longer, though; societal pressure is getting larger, and the military is taking a lot of flak from firing qualified Arabic translators because they liked their own sex more than the UCMJ thought was appropriate.
Dark Wizard 08-25-07, 03:38 AM	Things must be very, very different in Canada. Because based on my experiences his knowledge of human nature is so poor, it's not even wrong. Eh? I can just picture going to one of those polyamour get-togethers, and reading that to a bunch of alternatively lifestyled people, while dressed as Elminster. It would probably all be in the delivery but I bet it would be good for 5 minutes of solid laughter. Why would you dress as Elminster to read it to that particularly group uninvited in the first place? And on the previous page I read about Alustriel being a, well, deepspawn. Spitting 'em out every nine months. "Mother who was my Father?" "Err T'el Keuss-Nigh Oth-Myun (Elven for number '1,382', got to number in Elven. And she ran out of names long ago.), I don't really remember. Or maybe I just don't know, it is so hard to tell without divinatory magic. Tee-hee, and if I did that I'd never stop!" "Mother! I'm T'el Diir-Kris Yhr-Paiih! (Number 1,265)" She must have a dormitory just for her own children. D&D isn't a realistic genre. But come on. Read this thread. Read what is posted. This is some silly, silly stuff. Similar occurrences have happened in real life. Yes, with the standard current Western (Judeo-Christian influenced) mindset I was indoctrinated into (along with many of us here), I find it strange and awkward to read about these things. Yet having studied a bit of history and anthropology, this is not as uncommon as we think. Given that cultures of the Realms differ from those of Earth in all the necessary aspects for this to happen, it makes sense that this is even more prevalent. Besides, the drow do this, then it must be good. ;) Not to mentioned, I've encountered a few writers/gamers online who use such elements in their games. I was quite surprised when I first got sidewindered by such a scene. Like a few other gamers in these play-by-email games, I left not too long after this started since it was not what I was looking for in a game. I've played in 'regular' PBeM games with some of these players. Got to know them a bit, about as well acquainted as people can get online, a few claimed to participate in aspects of such lifestyles. I've yet to meet a gamer face-to-face who claims such, but then again I rarely play games life or 'meatspace' as 4E calls it. Edit: Other posters have noted their own experiences with meeting (or even close association with) people who practices these lifestyles. So again, not as uncommon as some would like to think. As for the Alustriel's children bit, well considering that she's an archmage with great intellect and wisdom (at least in the lore), it shouldn't be a problem to remember everyone. Divination magics are not a problem for the same reason. Besides, as a person of near royal status, it would be quite important to keep track of lineages for her. She's wealthy and powerful enough to to have someone do it for her, full time if need be. There is an organization and even a Chosen who do just this sort of thing for all sorts of lineages across the Realms). Do not make the mistake of thinking these characters are regular human, not fully at least and definitely not mentally. In fact this vaguely reminds me of the Bene Gesserit from Dune.
MerrikCale 08-25-07, 09:21 AM	Again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy#Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States FWIW, I imagine that there are individuals of noble families in the Realms who might usually be consider "gay", but who "take one for the team" in their family's case, having the one or two vital heirs, then go back to their discrete lovers. I would also be willing to bet that the church of Chauntea, at the very least, has low-level spells which can control a person's fertility. Thanks for the link. I had a feeling they tossed the old Hardwick case but I couldn't be sure. I never think to look on Wikipedia and I don't know why
MarkHall 08-25-07, 11:30 AM	Thanks for the link. I had a feeling they tossed the old Hardwick case but I couldn't be sure. I never think to look on Wikipedia and I don't know why I'm in Texas, with a number of gay friends. It was THE news for a bit.
MarkusTay63 08-25-07, 01:57 PM	I apologize in advance for the split-posting, but it's easier to address a few things this way - it is not meant to be belligerant in any way. I read that Ed Greenwood thing the Sage posted. Normally I just skim over Greenwood writings (I've never been able to finish one of his works of fiction), but I read this twice.I skipped it last night as well, because of its length. Thats pretty sad, considering I often make posts that long myself. However, you're post made me go back and read it... most of it, anyway. Things must be very, very different in Canada. Because based on my experiences his knowledge of human nature is so poor, it's not even wrong.I'm not understanding this sentiment at all. I can just picture going to one of those polyamour get-togethers, and reading that to a bunch of alternatively lifestyled people, while dressed as Elminster. It would probably all be in the delivery but I bet it would be good for 5 minutes of solid laughter.Do you know people who practice this lifestyle? :confused: I have 'experienced' it, but only as an observer, and decided it really wasn't my cup of tea. It grossed me out, really, and I am no prude - far from it. I'm just not comfortable with open sexuality on any level; I prefer things more 'one-on-one' if you catch my drift. However, I am friends with some people who do participate, and I do not find anything amusing or 'wrong' in anything Ed has said. In fact, before the advent of Aids non-monogamous relationships between homosexual men seems to have been the norm, if anything. I've heard many a disturbing story about the 'bathouses' of old. And on the previous page I read about Alustriel being a, well, deepspawn. Spitting 'em out every nine months.In answer to THAT, I will post this - The greatest officially recorded number of children born to one mother is 69, by the first of two wives of Feodor Vassilyev, a peasant from Shuya 150 miles east of Moscow.If a HUMAN can do that, why can't an Elf do far more? D&D isn't a realistic genre. But come on. Read this thread. Read what is posted. This is some silly, silly stuff.As I have said, I don't see the silliness of it. I find it disturbing that people would add these elements to D&D, but HEY, to each his own. I played a female spellcaster once, a long time ago, and another female (both IG and in-Character) kept 'persuing' my character, mostly because she knew it bothered the heck out of me. The girl was several years older then me, and openly bi, something not often encountered in 1979. Today I would not have the same reaction. Most of my son's female friends are bi, as are my brother-in-laws, and so are about half the girls my wife works with under the age of 25. I don't know if its like this everywhere, but appears to be becoming more the norm then heterosexuality - something that would have scared the cr@p out of me 30 years ago. Today, I just take it all with a grain of salt. Oh - and I ask my wife's co-workers to 'make-out' for me whenever we're all hanging out. I may be uncomfortable with 'interacting' with bi-people, but I have NO problem watching. :D I'm not trying to argue with you here, Kaor, but I would like for you point out some of the things you thought were silly. :)
DarkSongKnight 08-25-07, 06:09 PM	I'm glad to hear that some of my favorite Chosen will probably still be around. Qilue first of all, as she is the high priestess of Eilistraee's faith. Since she wields divine magic more so than arcane, the spellplague I can see as not having quite as drastic an effect on her. Her faith and dedication to Eilistraee may save her in the end, should anything happen to Mystra (yet again!). Alustriel is much an embodiment of the Silver Marches, as she helped build Silverymoon, became its ruler, and oversaw the construction of the alliance that makes up the Silver Marches. She seems tied to the fate of that realm, and seeing her go would be like watching the Silver Marches fade... and I for one am not ready for another Myth Drannor. The Simbul is likewise an integral part of Aglarond. She is one of the main reasons Thay hasn't conquered it yet. Her passion and drive may be what saves her when the spell plague hits. She has quite the zest for life. Storm would be quite a loss too. She fits in nicely as a leader of the Harpers and as an agent in the Dalelands. Considering she is more martial than her sisters, this could help her survive. Elminster I think will still be around, as he is a big part of the lore of the Realms. "The Old Sage" everyone can look to for information and such, and he presents the Realms oftentimes. With the spellplague on it's way, I know not to hope that all the Chosen will survive, but I do hope the ones above do. They are my favorites, and the ones I think whose loss would deal an especially devastating blow to the Realms.
Zandilar 08-25-07, 06:54 PM	Heya, You know a literary critic could have a field day deconstructing Realmslore. Not to mention a psychiatrist. Strangely enough, I agree. But that would be missing the point. Both a literary critic and a psychiatrist would be deconstructing the Realms through the prism of real Earth history and experience. The Realms aren't Earth. What means something here (with all our history, mythology, and symbolism), might mean something entirely different in the Realms (which doesn't have our history, mythology, or symbolism). So we wouldn't get an accurate reading of the Realms... What it might say about Ed Greenwood (a real Earth human living on Earth) on the other hand, is different, however (even though I hate to say it). Personally, I love the Realms simply because it is so different to Earth. If they were real and I lived there, I'd be free of many of the hassles of all the baggage we Western Humans carry about things like nudity and sexuality (and it doesn't end there, either, the idea of gods who actually respond to prayer and magic that has tangible effects, has strong appeal for me too). Edit: Re... Hmmm, let me guess: all the bisexuals referred to are women, right? I'm all for seeing more LGBT representation in the Realms period, 'cause lets face it, without our (Earth) society and mores (handed down mostly from the Abrahamic religions) it would be more acceptable and therefore people of so-called "alternate" sexualities wouldn't have any reason to be closeted, so it would seem more common. However, the characters I was talking about (particularly Alustriel, Storm, and Myrmeen Lhal) are all female and have flexible sexualities (in the case of Myrmeen, Ed Greenwood himself called her a true bisexual). Edit 2: Oh, koar, Alustriel's 12 sons all have the same father. She has daughters too, but we know nothing about them - I have a feeling they'll probably have the same father too. Alustriel is Mystra's Chosen, and like all Chosen, she only gets to have kids when Mystra wants her to (and Mystra obviously wants her to have a lot of them). Given she's over 600 years old, she's had a very long time to have that many children - especially considering that the father of those children is an Elf.
GothicDan 08-25-07, 07:10 PM	In fact, before the advent of Aids non-monogamous relationships between homosexual men seems to have been the norm, if anything. I've heard many a disturbing story about the 'bathouses' of old. It still IS the norm among many. I actually see absolutely nothing wrong with it, and once I move to CA, I might participate in it, just a bit. ;) I'm super amused by Kaor's POV.
kaor 08-26-07, 01:38 AM	Okay just a few responses. MarkusTay63: "Oh - and I ask my wife's co-workers to 'make-out' for me whenever we're all hanging out. I may be uncomfortable with 'interacting' with bi-people, but I have NO problem watching." I don't buy this. No gay woman I know would be comfortable with this. It would be a good way to get hit actually, if you brought it up. And your wife is okay with this? And with people she works with everyday? I also don't believe this statement by Ed Greenwood: "When the lesbians who happen to own the cottage four down from mine go out on their dock at dusk to make love, I don’t yell angrily at them, ridicule them, or rudely watch them, but if I happen to be out on my point (which is high enough to overlook their dock), I’ll smile and wave at first sight and then carry on as if they’re not doing anything. This has led to them in turn casually accepting my distant presence: they usually make love, then plunge in for a dip that includes lots of splashing and laughter, and then they climb back out on the dock to dry off (if the night’s too cold or mosquito-ridden for that, it’s on with the towels and back inside). Either way, they usually wave and call “good night” as they go." Right. Sounds like he is talking about bears in a nature film. Zandilar: On page 3 of this thread there is a link close to the bottom. From the page linked to: " The original Mystra seemed to encourage Alustriel to have children (why? Hoho! SO many mysteries, waved before you!), because she conceived every nine months and a day or two, giving Faerun a succession of healthy males in a series of easy births (and being little constricted or uncomfortable while pregnant, because rather than acquiring a ballooning belly, the High Lady always put on weight all over, and retained her poise, balance, and activities). Yes, she's given birth to females, and no, I’m not going to say ANYTHING more about that for future schemes reasons. :} The new Mystra may have other ideas, because (as far as Elminster knows -- and he doesn't hesitate to ask her, straight out) Alustriel isn't pregnant right now, and shows no signs of becoming so." I'm taking this to mean she stayed pregnant until the second Mystra was killed by Helm. I don't think the father of all of her children was the same elf. Now imagine how many children that would be. Also tell me how many of her children she has outlived. How did she have time to take care of the on average 15 or 16 or so she had on hand at any given time. (Assuming adulthood in the realms is 15 or 16.) Did she breastfeed? If she did, that is seriously freaky. Or maybe that whole thing wasn't thought out. Zandilar, the Realms aren't real. At all. The only possible analysis of it, is why it is popular with fans. And well, about the people who created it. And as for the bit about female bisexuals, well it is a pretty common male fantasy, and it was a way to say "Typical." GothicDan: You might want to read this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******s_%28novel%29 You may have heard of it. But if you are interested in this kind of lifestyle, I promise you you are no more than a 50 or 75 mile drive away from it at the most, no matter where you are. And if you are at a major university or in a city of say 100,000 or greater you won't have to travel. Or if a major interstate is near you. Why wait? People will be in a bit better shape in California. More plastic surgery. More white wine. More people working as waiters. More annoying, pretentious people. But you can get started anywhere. Next time you go to a truckstop and use the john, read the writing above the urinal. You are looking for stuff written in grease pencil, and dated. It will be something like: "Exit 234, Motel 6, second floor. Shades will be drawn. Knock. 8-22." Look. There is no candyland. You pay a price for everything you get. I could write a long paper on sexual repression. And I could write a longer one on sexuality becoming a commodity, and exactly what is wrong with that. I also think I could write a 20 page paper just on the Ed Greenwood excerpt the Old Sage posted, and that page about Alustriel. I'm not going to bother. I was kind of toying with trying to look up what the probability of dying during childbirth was during the time that Russian woman had her children. And demonstrating what a statistical outlier she was. But that would be taking this whole discussion too seriously.
Zandilar 08-26-07, 08:34 PM	Heya, Zandilar: <snip> I'm taking this to mean she stayed pregnant until the second Mystra was killed by Helm. I don't think the father of all of her children was the same elf. Now imagine how many children that would be. Also tell me how many of her children she has outlived. How did she have time to take care of the on average 15 or 16 or so she had on hand at any given time. (Assuming adulthood in the realms is 15 or 16.) Did she breastfeed? If she did, that is seriously freaky. Or maybe that whole thing wasn't thought out. Well, first of all, what makes you think it wasn't the same father? Ed Greenwood has mentioned several times that it is... Anyway, the official world record for children is 69. 69, and all by the same father. This woman (she was the first wife of Feodor Vassilyev - but her name isn't recorded) was pregnant 27 times, most of those were twins, with some being triplets and quintuplets (no singletons at all). We don't know how many of Alustriel's pregnancies resulted in multiple births. (By the way, of those 69 children, 67 survived past infancy... Quite a feat for the 1700s! Edit: And yes, I know this is a very very very very very rare occurance.) Ed Greenwood has said that Mystra's intervention made each pregnancy easy. (I'd pull the quote out, but I am not in a position to go through Kuje's archives right now and find the post.) He hasn't said if those births were multiples yet, so I guess there's something more to ask. Your comment about breastfeeding is curious. Why do you think it would be freaky for her to breastfeed her children? Want to clarify that a bit? On the other hand, I have problems with how she managed to raise them all too. Where would such a woman find the time? I think most of her offspring were probably farmed out into fosterage at a very young age, given the very tempting target they would present. The other thing I agree with you on is that, even if all her children are half-elves, they would have to be fairly recently born (relatively speaking) if they are still alive in the current game year. Once again, this doesn't come down to what is possible (I mean, magic can be used to explain a lot, and Mystra's matonage even more), but simply - where would Alustriel have the time? She must have had a very nice clear period of years in the recent past where she was fairly constantly pregnant... Yet no such period of time has ever been mentioned in any Faerunian timeline I have seen. So on this point, your guess is as good as mine. Zandilar, the Realms aren't real. At all. The only possible analysis of it, is why it is popular with fans. And well, about the people who created it. And as for the bit about female bisexuals, well it is a pretty common male fantasy, and it was a way to say "Typical." I know they're not real. I realise I made a little trip up with my last post on this point. But the point remains that analysis doesn't tell us anything about the Realms, the only thing it might tell us is something about Ed Greenwood... Unfortunately what it will tell us will be horribly distorted because Ed Greenwood, while the original creator, is not responsible for everything that has seen print. Therefore, we will not get an accurate picture. The other thing to keep in mind also, is that not everything a writer puts down on paper is a reflection of his or her subconscious mind - sometimes a writer writes things they don't actually agree with (don't think that's the case in this case, but it needed to be said). Anyway, creative people tend to be a bit eccentric. I hate to think what a psychiatrist would make of my writing. :eek: Lastly - I'm female. I happen to be a lesbian, and concider myself to be somewhat feminist (and somewhat misandrist too - though I am trying to be better). I would like to see more open LGBT representation in the Realms. Is that wrong of me? Or does that make me a male, with the typical male fantasy, because there are no girls on the internet?
GothicDan 08-26-07, 08:42 PM	Kaor - you can be sure I'll be participating in it, at least to a point, in CA, where the people are in better shape. And once I am, too! That being said - it seems to me like you have some issues regarding sexuality that are really showing through on this thread. But I won't say any more, since that's really taking things too personal/OOC for the topic. But suffice it to say that things in the Realms do not work how they do in real life, including culturally and socially. This makes sense, given there's no actual proof HOW humans were created and developed.
MarkusTay63 08-27-07, 12:50 AM	Okay just a few responses. MarkusTay63: "Oh - and I ask my wife's co-workers to 'make-out' for me whenever we're all hanging out. I may be uncomfortable with 'interacting' with bi-people, but I have NO problem watching." I don't buy this. No gay woman I know would be comfortable with this. It would be a good way to get hit actually, if you brought it up. And your wife is okay with this? And with people she works with everyday? My wife knows that deep down I am a VERY old-fashioned guy, and although I might enjoy looking at other women, I would never, ever consider sleeping with another one. Even now.... and we've been seperated 1½ years - I doubt very much I would be another woman - ever. (and our break-up had zero to do with things in this thread, and we are still good friends). Also, I never mentioned lesbians anywhere in my post - I said 'bi', and just about all of the young women my wife works with are flirts and like to 'show-off' for guys, so yeah, they have no problem with me asking, and the wife thinks it's funny. We used to go to a gay bar every Wednesday night for Karaoke (the only place you can find good karaoke these days) with the gang from her job, and I would be pretty much the only straight guy there. So you have to factor in most of us were a little 'buzzed' when hanging out. The few purely lesbian women I know I wouldn't ask, and wouldn't want to (the drag-queens are usually prettier). My wife does have one young, pretty, 100% gay co-worker, or at least used-to. I never asked her to make-out for me, but she used to do it all the time in front of me, and usually with a different girl each time we hung out. She liked to seduce straight girls, she was funny that way, but I've known some men like that too (my bro-in-law offerred me 'favors', and my wife was VERY annoyed with him over it). Trust me, it's all around you, everywhere - people are only becoming more open about it these days.
danielmayer 08-27-07, 11:24 AM	Totally confused by this thread. But anyway good lecture for an afternoon at work... As it reads, here are only lesbians, gay and straight-but-divorced in the thread... :plotting: Casting 9th-lvl divorce-spells... Damn, I'm stuck with that silly "charm (female) person"-spell. Got it from my grand-dad, a nice 0th-lvl-spell, "suited for everyone" as he told me... ... but doesn't seem to get hold on any (ok, not *any*) women... archmage in game I may be, but listening to those destinys, doom, fate or luck/bad luck... I think I'll remain "single", offers more fun as it seems. Regarding the thread-theme: I agree with the interpretation that the Seven Sisters conform with the Demi-God-description - in "real-world"-definition. But: Also in 3E: Deities&Demigods states on p.25: "Rank 0: [...] Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category [...]". Being born by Mystra and a mortal woman fulfills that definition clearly. In "real-world" surely Hercules is the pendant of this, who is also reffered to as "demi-god" - even if his deity-partent did his contribution in form of a bull... Not Khelben or El have deities as partents. So that's quite a difference. Greetings!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-29-07, 08:33 PM	Well, I'm a straight, single female.:) I read all of that long post with Ed's comments in it. Good stuff--some of it I think I've read before, other stuff I haven't seen until now. As for this: "MIDSUMMER: The Feast of Love. No shops are open past highsun on this day. At highsun, small feasts (private meals) begin, and open public lovemaking begins. Many folk don’t take part, and stay home in their shuttered rooms, but the majority of citizens wander, watching or fondling or diving right in and participating in sex acts with those who beckon. Open doors are invitations to all, priests cast curative spells against diseases for free, orgies and public nudity and dalliance are commonplace, and even staid old Silvaeren tell off-colour jokes or make frank, lewd remarks or praisings they’d never dream of daring to utter on any other day (and to which those they are made to are supposed not to react, “forgetting” everything that happened on Midsummer after the next dawn). Traditionally, Alustriel makes love to all sorts of strangers of both genders and many races, and leads a “Hunt of Maidens” (which of course is nothing of the sort, but rather a hunt for a specific mask - - or rather, the person wearing it - - through various gardens) after the moon rises. Clergy of Loviatar and Ilmater give demonstrations involving lovemaking, and various wealthy folk with large homes host parties at which naughty games are held (eating various sweet desserts off the bared bodies of fellow revellers is a favourite tradition)." I have to admit I found this humorous, albeit in a good way.
The WarOverlord 09-02-07, 12:54 AM	Can I just say how much I loathe the seven sisters? They're all the same character. The Seven Sisters are Chosen and more specifically Mystra's semi-avatars when Mystra gave up trying to convert mere mortals like Eliminster and Kelben with only limited sucess (Most went insane or went renegade...sometimes the same thing) so that they are all similar with very little personality difference would be expected. It was odd that when her end came that most of Mystra's power digressed to Eliminster instead of Midnight or more specifically her one of her custom made Vessles known as the "Seven Sisters"....really odd.
MerrikCale 09-02-07, 09:20 AM	The Seven Sisters are Chosen and more specifically Mystra's semi-avatars when Mystra gave up trying to convert mere mortals like Eliminster and Kelben with only limited sucess (Most went insane or went renegade...sometimes the same thing) so that they are all similar with very little personality difference would be expected. Just because there is an explanation for their similiarities doesn't mean I have to like it
The WarOverlord 09-03-07, 09:21 AM	Just because there is an explanation for their similiarities doesn't mean I have to like it Well, if there is any "one State" simularities between the Seven Sisters and the Dwarfs from Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs then the Simbul is Mystra's "Grouchy"...lol