Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chloramantis 04-22-08, 09:44 PM	After reading Neversfall I began to wonder what the people of Var, Estagund, Dupar and most of all Ulgarth look like. I need to put a real world finger on them. From the weapons and dress, I'm thinking Arabian or Indian? But from source books, Ulgarth doesn't seem to fit either of these two? They seem almost Norse? Any ideas?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-23-08, 11:06 AM	I think there are some good pictures in the 3E Shining South sourcebook.:)
Stigger 04-23-08, 01:31 PM	My own impression was more Indian than anything else, but I seem to recall that the Ulgarth were partly descended from Illuskan bloodlines, so the Norse image holds some truth to it. Overall, I'd tend towards Indian with subtle hints of Norse.
MarkusTay63 04-23-08, 02:38 PM	Ulgarth is never fully explained, even in the 2e SS which provided the best coverage for the realm. Near as I can figure, from the various timelines of nearby regions, Ulgarth is an Amalgam of several cultures. The original being Muhjein (Arabic/Zakharan), then later getting some Mar (Indian) influence from the Utter East, then some Muhjein (Imaskar) influence again (as that Empire establisherd it's southern frontier). Then when Imaskar fell, a period of barbarism (similar to Kushan Afghanistan), and then Mulan (Persian/Egyptian) influence (as the Mulhorand and Untheric Empires grew). None of that points to why there is a somewhat European-like form of Feudalism within the country ATM. :bored: Non-Canon: In the Utter East thread, I hypothesized that the nation of Veldorn had the largest population of Dathites (Chondathan) in the south at one time. This group would have been displaced as the Mulan spread west, and while most of them hugged the coastlines (Vilhon Reach) and moved even further west, a small portion went south and established the nation of Veldorn on the northern border of the Shining Lands. This would have been similar to how Byzantium was a bastion of western culture in the eastern world in our own history. In order to explain some inconsistencies with the timelines, I hypothesized that a Horde of barbarians arose in Ulgarth and swarmed north and west, through parts of the Shining Lands, and eventually conquering Veldorn. For whatever reason, they found allies/kindred spitits amongst the Arkauins of Shandaular, who were raiding into Unther themselves for quite awhile, and the two groups continued to make themselves a major nuisance to the northern empires. At that point, many of the Chondathan people of veldorn, after living there for centuries, would have been driven to other cities that had not yet fallen to the horde of horsemen. In canon, Unther and Mulhorand 'teamed-up' to put down the barbarians along their southern border. The Arkaiuns were driven into Dambrath by Unther (canon), but I also surmize that the Ulgarthan Horde (now dwelling in Veldorn) were nearly wiped out by the might of the Mulhorand army. Mulhorand took this opportunity to devestate (pillage and loot) whatever cities and settlements it marched through, using the excuse of supplying its army. There are several canon dates in the timeline that support this (crushing the Ulgarth barbarians, and contention with Durpar and the Shining Lands). Eventually, the Mulhorand army would have chased the last of the barbarians all the way into the Stoney wastes of Ulgarth, where they were too well hidden to 'ferret out' fully (and many remain to this day). Now, many of the original Veldornites would have taken up with Mulhorand army, and travel with it, for protection (camp followers), and I assume many of them would have stayed behind in the now 'cleared' region of Ulgarth (along the coasts). Mulhorand would have pulled it's armies back, having 'other business' to attend in the north, and eventually left the Shining Lands completely. They would have retained a few garrisons in the now-defunct land of Veldorn, and any Veldornites that remained would have been persecuted for following a religion other then the official Pharaonic Pantheon. There is a canon reference to 'criminals' settling Ulgarth, and that is what Mulhorand would have considered anyone not complying with their religious doctrine. At this point, whatever few Veldornites left alive in Veldorn, and in ghettoes throughout the Shining Lands, would have emigrated into the newly-settled region of Ulgarth (think 'Israel' - with Ulgarth being the new Dathite {Veldornite} homeland for all those displaced by years of war). In this way, all of the canon dates and invasions are covered, and we have a very good reason why a 'European-style' (Chondathan) culture exists that far south, that doesn't appear related to the surrounding peoples. So you have a mostly-northern people, with major influences from several other cultures over centuries of strife, which created something rather unique (an area wear 'knights' where light leather, rather then the traditional plate armor). Also, by 'filling-in' some Veldorn history, we can see now how a country could have fallen so readily to monsters - it was already pretty much abandoned, and the few garrisons that would have been left (Mulhorandi and Durparan) would have been easily overrun. Also, that would have been the reason behind one last, final migration of Veldornites south to Ulgarth, to the new kingdom established there. I'm working on Ulgarth right now, as the first part of the Utter east project, so all of this 'conjecture' will find its way into there eventually (along with the history of 'lost' Thommar, which was absorbed by Ulgarth and Durpar).
Chloramantis 04-24-08, 11:43 AM	very interesting, thanks.
Mula 04-26-08, 10:50 PM	None of that points to why there is a somewhat European-like form of Feudalism within the country ATM. :bored: Are you actually trying to imply that not everything in the Realms makes sense and that it's a bit like comic books and other silly high fantasy literature/entertainment? I'll let you know that I disagree! I am an 18th-level sun elven (Ar-Tel'Quessir) wizard of Evermeet! Yes, the Realms (not the destroyed nothing-makes-sense-4e-realms-that-aren't-the-Realms-even-though-the-company-that-owns-the-IP-says-it-is) have ancient Egypt, medieval Europe, ancient Greece, India (of circa 1400 AD or sumthin), Aztec, Maya, Inca, ancient Africa, medieval Russia, Ottoman Empire wannabes, and everything in between coexisting at the same time. And elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and parrot men too. It's all very serious, however. So yeah, the most powerful spellcaster is a massive living brain - is that a problem? Eberron is soooo over-the-top...
MarkusTay63 04-27-08, 12:15 AM	I wasn't addressing the problem of pasted-in cultures, I was adressing the strangeness of a culture that doesn't appear to be related to any of the surrounding ones, and DIDN'T come from 'somewhere else' (as in, another world). Everything in a game world needs a reason for being the way it is, even if that explanation is 'magic'. When magic isn't involved and something is still 'odd', then we are forced to figure out why things are the way they are. I don't know about you, but I can't game in a world unless I know how the economies work, and the cultures interact, and all that geo-political type crap that makes a fantasy world 'come alive'. Even fantasy needs to follow some sort of logic, otherwise it loses its credibility and the 'immersion factor' of the stories.
1 ton ghost 04-30-08, 07:19 PM	Well said. I particularly liked your hypothesis concerning the Arkaius and their forays in the Shining South before the drow smashed them precipitating Dambrath.
MarkusTay63 05-01-08, 11:07 AM	Thank You - that part (about the Arkauins) is canon, and is in the history of the SS. There is also some confusing history concerning the 'barabarians of Ulgarth' that occur right around the same time (two years apart!), so that is why I decided to 'lump them together' as a 'horde' on the southern border of the mighty Mulhorand and Untherite Empires, since both groups seem to have been 'smashed' by those two groups during the same period, it just made sense. As to the OP's original question, which I seem to have strayed from, ALL peoples of the Shining Sea would have a 'Moorish' cast to them (to use RW terminology) They wouldn't exactly be Arabic-looking; you'd find that a little further south in Zakhara. The Mujein people, who migrated up from Zakhara some 10,000 years ago, would be more like the Moslem peoples living along the northern coast of Africa today. I use to picture them being like Morrocans, but I think Calimshan better fits that (in my mind, anyway - officially its more like Turkistan). So, they might look very similar to the people of Zakhara (having originaly been a part of them), but their customs and dress would have evolved quite differently after some ten millenia. You won't see any women wearing Veils, but you will see a lot of light, baggy clothing (with women wearing Shou Silk, which is more readily available there). As far as attitudes - think early Meditteranean - like the Greeks and others of the time, trading with everyone for everything. For the most part, they are far more interested in what goods you have to offer, then converting you to their beliefs (as the Hellenes did RW). I find the nations around the Golden Waters facinating, and I am really hoping they slipped under the radar in 4th edition. It seems everything that caught the designer's attention unfortunetly got 're-invented'. I thought Bruce Cordell was going to go all 'Far Realms' on the region, but now I think they are going that way with Thay instead, going by certain comments. Unless they plan on making the whole eastern end of Faerūn into 'aberration land', which would be just horrible. :(