Thunder Peaks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Thunder Peaks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WotC_GregB
02-03-08, 04:59 PM Does anyone know what nation claimed the Thunder Peaks before Cormyr existed?
Iakhovas
02-03-08, 05:46 PM Does anyone know what nation claimed the Thunder Peaks before Cormyr existed?You may be thinking of the lost nation of Orva, which is now sunk beneath the waters of the Vast Swamp of eastern Cormyr.
selunatic2397
02-03-08, 10:07 PM Brian, is there anything that you don't know? :confused:
Lord Karsus
02-04-08, 12:24 AM -Can I ask why you're asking? :confused:
MarkusTay63
02-04-08, 02:35 AM There was also a Goblin Kingdom that existed in Cormyr's distant past - the same goblins that later came back and caused problems when Azoun died.

I don't think the Kingdom that the Goblins were from was ever named in canon, but I think that whatever was left of that group took over Tethyamar.

Their extra-dimensional city was known as Grodd.
You may be thinking of the lost nation of Orva, which is now sunk beneath the waters of the Vast Swamp of eastern Cormyr.Where is that from, again? :confused:
Lord Karsus
02-04-08, 03:24 AM Where is that from, again? :confused:

-I think that is from either Demihuman Deities, or Four from Cormyr. Orva was the Human realm that worshipped Labelas Enoreth in his 'Kronus' guise, if I am not mistaken.
Old Sage
02-04-08, 08:00 AM The 'Orva' details are in the second paragraph of Labelas's entry in Demihuman Deities. Eric says that Orva's status as a human kingdom is probable. He added the "probable" qualifer because he had to insert a little bit of Realmslore in Demihuman Deities in the write-up of Labelas Enoreth [look at the alias list.] This was to patch up the lack of a time portfolio among any human Realms god and because the only gods left to detail at the time were nonhuman gods.
Lord Karsus
02-04-08, 11:53 AM -There, I knew it.

-Hmm...Since Mystryl once held the time portfolio, Kronus must have appeared after the time of Netheril, if you want to go with the idea that there is only one deity per portfolio for all Human pantheons.
WotC_GregB
02-04-08, 03:15 PM -Can I ask why you're asking? :confused:

I'm working on a freelance article for DDI to come out in May and wanted to provide some historical context and backstory to the events taking place in the adventure material.

I knew that Orva comprised part of the lands of Cormyr, but I haven't been able to find a definitive boundary. Did it extend into the Thunder Peaks?
Old Sage
02-04-08, 07:05 PM I don't immediately recall the political boundaries of Orva being specifically defined in the Realmslore. Orva was based around the region which the Vast Swamp now occupies. It may have had some claim to, or influence in, the southern-most sections of the Thunder Peaks however, given the geographical closeness between the two areas.
Iakhovas
02-04-08, 08:12 PM Orva's influence in the Thunder Peaks was likely limited to the southern peaks around modern-day Highdale. Any new lore on this lost kingdom would be welcome indeed Greg. I cannot wait to read it!
Krash
02-05-08, 09:25 AM Does anyone know what nation claimed the Thunder Peaks before Cormyr existed?

The answer to that question is likely "it depends".

The sources state that Cormyr is the first human kingdom north of the Lake of Dragons, with Marsember being the first permanent settlement in those parts being founded in -74 DR, a century before Cormyr is founded as a kingdom proper.

The scant information we have on Orva is found in the adventure "Four From Cormyr" (p.75). This information does not tell us whether Orva was a human kingdom or something else. For continuity's sake and given what we know of the far greater extent of forests in and around the present day Inner Sea lands, it is likely that Orva was an elven satellite kingdom, similar to the realm of Iliphar Nelnueve which was founded in -205 DR. The fact that the elven deity Labelas was worshipped there is likely proof enough of this but by far the best material to suport this contention is the "The Cormyrean Marshes" booklet (p.32) from the "Elminster's Ecologies" boxed set. This talks extensively about ancient elven-looking ruins in the Vast Swamp.

The reference in "Four From Cormyr" talks about Orva having existed "two millenia ago" (i.e. c. -630 to -650 DR or so). This predates Iliphar's kingdom by several centuries. I note that the Vast Swamp borders the Hullack Forest. Within the Hullack Forest is Elfhold which is detailed in "Faiths & Pantheons". The Elfhold is linked with Iliphar and his house, Amaratharr.

My thoughts are that Orva existed from around the -600s DR for a couple of centuries. House Amaratharr was a part of that realm until the king (likely a "laranlor" in elvish which means a monarch of a realm not powerful enough to consider labelling himself a "coronal") exhibited the tyrannical traits and 'delusions of empire' that led to the realm's demise. They likely fled back to Cormanthyr and told the coronal at the time, Tannivh Irithyl, what was going on. Before the elves could react, Orva became a hell-blasted ruin. The High Mages sent to bring this vassal realm to heel undertook the clean up work to seal the gate/portal between the region and the Nine Hells and to do what they could to ward the sourrounding lands from the evils that were created in the cataclysm.

As a reward for their loyalty, House Amaratharr and Iliphar were eventually granted the woodlands of Lythtlorn (the elven name for the Wolf Woods or what is now Cormyr - see Dragon#276, p.79).

Which brings us back to the Thunder Peaks. Before Cormyr, the whole region would have nominally been claimed by the elves of Cormanthyr and their satellite vassal kingdoms such as Orva and Arnothoi (see FRCS [2E]: A Grand Tour of the Realms, p.58 and a recent reference in Paul Kemp's short story in 'Realms of War'). In truth however the Thunder Peaks has always been dragon country. It's a running joke among a few of us FR fans and scholars that there are more dragons per square mile in the Thunder Peaks than anywhere else in the Realms.

By far the most formidable is the dracolich Aurgloaroasa "the Sibilant Shade" (see "Dragons of Faerūn" and the older 2E "Cult of the Dragon" sourcebooks) but there have been a host of others, mostly red. A possible reason they all clustered in the Thunder Peaks is that they were driven off or feared the mighty dragon Thauglor, suzerain of the lands of Cormyr and beyond until his defeat by Iliphar in -205 DR.

So in conclusion, the answer is Cormanthyr or one of its satellite, vassal elven realms depending on what historical period you refer to, but it would definitely be a situation of "claiming" rather than actually having a presence there and "ruling".

-- George Krashos
MarkusTay63
02-05-08, 10:29 AM Two things -

Once again I applaud Krash's excelent research, but it can be taken a step further: -74 DR is the year the first permanent Human settlements were founded north of the Dragonreach, but isn't it entirely possible that whatever few humans WERE in that area (barbarians, explorers, refugees, etc) settled in Elven Orva?

Its quite possible that Orva was one of the first Elven Realms with a sizeable human 'ghetto', as it were. If the leader of that Realm had gone power-mad, it seams likely that he would have attempted to gleen knowledge from whoever he could, including non-Elves. So what might on the surface seem like a 'nice' thing to do (inviting humans to live amongst Elves) could have been part of his greater plans which never saw fruition. Perhaps that Realm is what gave the Coronal of Cormanthyr the idea of allowing non-Elves within his Realm, which eventually lead to the creation of Myth Drannor. It would also explain why humans began worshipping Elven deities in that area, albeit under different names.

The second thing is this -

According to Tom Costa's sidebar on pg. 9 of the GHotR, Urd refugees from Darastrixhurt hi's built the first Kingdom in the Thunder Peaks. That would have occurred soon after the first Rage of Dragons, circa -25,000 DR. Not sure if that helps, as I'm don't know how far back you intend to go with the article.

Also, it appears the Goblin (Grodd?) Kingdom would have been in western Cormyr, whereas Orva would have occupied the eastern half, and the two may have been contemporaries for a short period of time. Both would have fallen around the time of the Fall of Netheril, give or take a couple of centuries.

That gives you plenty of time time between the urd Kingdom and the fall of Netheril to create just about anything you wanted there. ;)
Jiggawha
02-05-08, 11:35 AM Krash that's impressive

also I was reading Elder Evils a few days ago, it briefly mentions that the high elves (?) in the age of Myth Drannor opened a portal to the Far Realms to Father Llymic, his body is entombed in the Thunder Peaks

IMO that sidebar sucks, but could be related to the topic
WotC_GregB
02-05-08, 03:34 PM Thanks for the help guys, I appreciate it.
The Ubbergeek
02-05-08, 03:39 PM I hope nobody will be bad at him - he at least ASKED for infos. Which means that he cared for canon, veracity and all that.
Lord Karsus
02-05-08, 04:30 PM also I was reading Elder Evils a few days ago, it briefly mentions that the high elves (?) in the age of Myth Drannor opened a portal to the Far Realms to Father Llymic, his body is entombed in the Thunder Peaks

-Technically, that's not even Forgotten Realms canon. See, that's what happens when they use Forgotten Realms locales in "Generic" things.

-By the way, since you have Elder Evils (It seems), how does it tie to Halaster's death in Return to Undermountain?
MarkusTay63
02-05-08, 11:05 PM I used to say that 3e Undermountain was core, and therefore Halaster DID NOT die in FR, but I was told that that kind of thinking is just plain 'wrong' by those in charge. If something happens in a core book, but it mentions specific things regarding an FR NPC or locale, then it IS considered FR canon... now.

It's a 4e Multi-versal way of thinking, I suppose - and besides, you were totally aware of the Cormanthyr Elves mucking about with the Far Realms, weren't you LK? ;)

I hope nobody will be bad at him - he at least ASKED for infos. Which means that he cared for canon, veracity and all that.Now you're being ridiculous. :ahem:

Whenever someone asks a legitimate question regarding lore on these boards, no matter who it is, the regulars here try to help them within the best of their abilities. If anything, I would rather see designers coming here and asking us questions just to back up there own research, rather then just taking a stab in the dark and fudging things.

No one knows EVERYTHING about the setting (except, perhaps, Old Sage), and everyone needs a hand sometimes sifting through the enormous amount of information we have on the Realms. This site and Candlekeep are both wonderful resources for people who need help, and I would much rather spend all my time looking something up for folks, then arguiing about the latest 4e news release.

Only a stupid person DOESN'T ask questions. :detect:
Lord Karsus
02-05-08, 11:12 PM I used to say that 3e Undermountain was core, and therefore Halaster DID NOT die in FR, but I was told that that kind of thinking is just plain 'wrong' by those in charge.

-As was I.

If something happens in a core book, but it mentions specific things regarding an FR NPC or locale, then it IS considered FR canon... now.

-That is not what I was told. I was told that by either Krash or Brian (Don't remember which one of the two it was) that an entry about Halaster's death would be appearing in AGHotR, thereby 'validating' that lore. I was not told that anything FR-specific in a 'Generic' sourcebook is considered canon.

If anything, I would rather see designers coming here and asking us questions just to back up there own research, rather then just taking a stab in the dark and fudging things.

-That would be cool, if it happened more often. I'm not necessarily saying that it needs to happen more often, but...;)
MarkusTay63
02-05-08, 11:16 PM At least it shows a love and respect for established lore, which is always a BIG plus when demonstrated by those 'in charge'. :)
Old Sage
02-06-08, 01:24 AM No one knows EVERYTHING about the setting (except, perhaps, Old Sage), and everyone needs a hand sometimes sifting through the enormous amount of information we have on the Realms.I'll admit, even I need help sometimes. ;) Granted, it's rare indeed when I'll ask a Realmslore question [excluding the heap that currently exist in the backlog of questions that I've posed to Ed over at Candlekeep]. But I do have one or two weak spots when it comes to the Realmslore. Like when it comes to rules and FR-specific mechanics that reflect certain Realmslore elements. I'm still just a clueless berk who often needs as much assistance as I can get from those who are more accustomed to the FR/D&D rules sets. Take the concept of elven High Magic for example... even after all my years with the Realms [since 1987], I still don't fully understand it. :P
Old Sage
02-06-08, 01:27 AM -That is not what I was told. I was told that by either Krash or Brian (Don't remember which one of the two it was) that an entry about Halaster's death would be appearing in AGHotR, thereby 'validating' that lore. I was not told that anything FR-specific in a 'Generic' sourcebook is considered canon.Rich Baker also confirmed it in his Q&A scroll on the 15th June '07:-

"Yes, Halaster is no more. You'll see an entry to that effect in the Grand History when it comes out."
Lord Karsus
02-06-08, 01:36 AM Take the concept of elven High Magic for example... even after all my years with the Realms [since 1987], I still don't fully understand it. :P

-It's very simple now. It's just Epic Magic. :)

Rich Baker also confirmed it in his Q&A scroll on the 15th June '07:-

"Yes, Halaster is no more. You'll see an entry to that effect in the Grand History when it comes out."

-Either way, the effect is the same: It didn't become Forgotten Realms canon until it was printed in a Forgotten Realms product.
Old Sage
02-06-08, 01:44 AM -It's very simple now. It's just Epic Magic. :)I suppose now would be the time that I note that I also have difficulties understanding the Epic Magic system. ;)
Lord Karsus
02-06-08, 02:07 AM I suppose now would be the time that I note that I also have difficulties understanding the Epic Magic system. ;)

:shifty:

-I do too, but I don't tell anyone. Just smile and nod, and no one asks questions...

:)
MarkusTay63
02-06-08, 11:07 AM I have no clue how to use it either, so join the club. :D

I don't run epic games, so its never been a problem, and if I need the 'villain' to do so, it just happens - I don't need rules for that. ;)

Well, at least the three of us can be glad all of that is being chucked out with 4e - Epic spells are just the ones that go from 21 to 30 now, otherwise all of the mechanics will be the same. So you see, 4e does have its merits, at least as far as the rules are concerned.
18DELTA
02-06-08, 11:07 AM -:eek:

18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus
02-06-08, 12:28 PM Well, at least the three of us can be glad all of that is being chucked out with 4e - Epic spells are just the ones that go from 21 to 30 now, otherwise all of the mechanics will be the same. So you see, 4e does have its merits, at least as far as the rules are concerned.

-If you go by the definition, that Epic Magic is magic that surpasses the boundaries of normal spellcasting, then Epic Magic is going to be anything 30+, since 30 is going to be the new boundary of spellcasting.
Jiggawha
02-07-08, 06:17 AM -Technically, that's not even Forgotten Realms canon. See, that's what happens when they use Forgotten Realms locales in "Generic" things.

yea, it's ridiculous, in this case the concentration of elder evils per square mile, tough I've always considered these things canon, even liked some sidebars in MMs 3-5, obviously they are intended for FR fans, so they're canon

also Pandorym is in there
WotC_GregB
02-07-08, 11:06 PM Seeing as we're promoting epic-level play for 4th edition, you can expect to see some serious attention given to elven high magic. I was hoping to have an epic-level "Create Mythal" ritual in an FR book I was working on (I won't say which book), but after a talk with the designers, we agreed it was better to wait until we can devote a large amount of thought (and writing) to dealing with elven high magic. However, I did end up including several rituals inspired by peoples' favorite spells from another thread I started a month or two ago.

I'm still (relatively) new to the realms, but I try to use the forums and sites like Candlekeep to make sure I'm true to the lore and the fans. On the other hand, I'm not going to be shy about creating new lore as appropriate. Hopefully you'll see a little of both when the article I'm working on (and the book) appear.

Thanks again for the help. :)
18DELTA
02-07-08, 11:52 PM Seeing as we're promoting epic-level play for 4th edition, you can expect to see some serious attention given to elven high magic. I was hoping to have an epic-level "Create Mythal" ritual in an FR book I was working on (I won't say which book), but after a talk with the designers, we agreed it was better to wait until we can devote a large amount of thought (and writing) to dealing with elven high magic. However, I did end up including several rituals inspired by peoples' favorite spells from another thread I started a month or two ago.

I'm still (relatively) new to the realms, but I try to use the forums and sites like Candlekeep to make sure I'm true to the lore and the fans. On the other hand, I'm not going to be shy about creating new lore as appropriate. Hopefully you'll see a little of both when the article I'm working on (and the book) appear.

Thanks again for the help. :)
-You just got a +1 in my book. I think it would help the community if more developers and designers posted on these forums regularly. Plus Rich would get a welcome relief from angry posters. Right now my dog and cat are freaking out about something. Chasing each other around. Ripping and romping, the little freaks!!!:D

18DELTA:cloud9:
MarkusTay63
02-08-08, 12:59 AM -I think it would help the community if more developers and designers posted on these forums regularly. Plus Rich would get a welcome relief from angry posters.QFT - I would love to see more back-and-forth like this with designers; the fans of the setting are actually one of its biggest assets, so don't be afraid to use us. ;)

...Chasing each other around. Ripping and romping, the little freaks!!!Your pets, or the designers? :confused:

:P :D
18DELTA
02-08-08, 11:23 PM QFT - I would love to see more back-and-forth like this with designers; the fans of the setting are actually one of its biggest assets, so don't be afraid to use us. ;)
-QFT!!!:)

18DELTA;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WotC_GregB 02-03-08, 04:59 PM	Does anyone know what nation claimed the Thunder Peaks before Cormyr existed?
Iakhovas 02-03-08, 05:46 PM	Does anyone know what nation claimed the Thunder Peaks before Cormyr existed?You may be thinking of the lost nation of Orva, which is now sunk beneath the waters of the Vast Swamp of eastern Cormyr.
selunatic2397 02-03-08, 10:07 PM	Brian, is there anything that you don't know? :confused:
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 12:24 AM	-Can I ask why you're asking? :confused:
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 02:35 AM	There was also a Goblin Kingdom that existed in Cormyr's distant past - the same goblins that later came back and caused problems when Azoun died. I don't think the Kingdom that the Goblins were from was ever named in canon, but I think that whatever was left of that group took over Tethyamar. Their extra-dimensional city was known as Grodd. You may be thinking of the lost nation of Orva, which is now sunk beneath the waters of the Vast Swamp of eastern Cormyr.Where is that from, again? :confused:
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 03:24 AM	Where is that from, again? :confused: -I think that is from either Demihuman Deities, or Four from Cormyr. Orva was the Human realm that worshipped Labelas Enoreth in his 'Kronus' guise, if I am not mistaken.
Old Sage 02-04-08, 08:00 AM	The 'Orva' details are in the second paragraph of Labelas's entry in Demihuman Deities. Eric says that Orva's status as a human kingdom is probable. He added the "probable" qualifer because he had to insert a little bit of Realmslore in Demihuman Deities in the write-up of Labelas Enoreth [look at the alias list.] This was to patch up the lack of a time portfolio among any human Realms god and because the only gods left to detail at the time were nonhuman gods.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 11:53 AM	-There, I knew it. -Hmm...Since Mystryl once held the time portfolio, Kronus must have appeared after the time of Netheril, if you want to go with the idea that there is only one deity per portfolio for all Human pantheons.
WotC_GregB 02-04-08, 03:15 PM	-Can I ask why you're asking? :confused: I'm working on a freelance article for DDI to come out in May and wanted to provide some historical context and backstory to the events taking place in the adventure material. I knew that Orva comprised part of the lands of Cormyr, but I haven't been able to find a definitive boundary. Did it extend into the Thunder Peaks?
Old Sage 02-04-08, 07:05 PM	I don't immediately recall the political boundaries of Orva being specifically defined in the Realmslore. Orva was based around the region which the Vast Swamp now occupies. It may have had some claim to, or influence in, the southern-most sections of the Thunder Peaks however, given the geographical closeness between the two areas.
Iakhovas 02-04-08, 08:12 PM	Orva's influence in the Thunder Peaks was likely limited to the southern peaks around modern-day Highdale. Any new lore on this lost kingdom would be welcome indeed Greg. I cannot wait to read it!
Krash 02-05-08, 09:25 AM	Does anyone know what nation claimed the Thunder Peaks before Cormyr existed? The answer to that question is likely "it depends". The sources state that Cormyr is the first human kingdom north of the Lake of Dragons, with Marsember being the first permanent settlement in those parts being founded in -74 DR, a century before Cormyr is founded as a kingdom proper. The scant information we have on Orva is found in the adventure "Four From Cormyr" (p.75). This information does not tell us whether Orva was a human kingdom or something else. For continuity's sake and given what we know of the far greater extent of forests in and around the present day Inner Sea lands, it is likely that Orva was an elven satellite kingdom, similar to the realm of Iliphar Nelnueve which was founded in -205 DR. The fact that the elven deity Labelas was worshipped there is likely proof enough of this but by far the best material to suport this contention is the "The Cormyrean Marshes" booklet (p.32) from the "Elminster's Ecologies" boxed set. This talks extensively about ancient elven-looking ruins in the Vast Swamp. The reference in "Four From Cormyr" talks about Orva having existed "two millenia ago" (i.e. c. -630 to -650 DR or so). This predates Iliphar's kingdom by several centuries. I note that the Vast Swamp borders the Hullack Forest. Within the Hullack Forest is Elfhold which is detailed in "Faiths & Pantheons". The Elfhold is linked with Iliphar and his house, Amaratharr. My thoughts are that Orva existed from around the -600s DR for a couple of centuries. House Amaratharr was a part of that realm until the king (likely a "laranlor" in elvish which means a monarch of a realm not powerful enough to consider labelling himself a "coronal") exhibited the tyrannical traits and 'delusions of empire' that led to the realm's demise. They likely fled back to Cormanthyr and told the coronal at the time, Tannivh Irithyl, what was going on. Before the elves could react, Orva became a hell-blasted ruin. The High Mages sent to bring this vassal realm to heel undertook the clean up work to seal the gate/portal between the region and the Nine Hells and to do what they could to ward the sourrounding lands from the evils that were created in the cataclysm. As a reward for their loyalty, House Amaratharr and Iliphar were eventually granted the woodlands of Lythtlorn (the elven name for the Wolf Woods or what is now Cormyr - see Dragon#276, p.79). Which brings us back to the Thunder Peaks. Before Cormyr, the whole region would have nominally been claimed by the elves of Cormanthyr and their satellite vassal kingdoms such as Orva and Arnothoi (see FRCS [2E]: A Grand Tour of the Realms, p.58 and a recent reference in Paul Kemp's short story in 'Realms of War'). In truth however the Thunder Peaks has always been dragon country. It's a running joke among a few of us FR fans and scholars that there are more dragons per square mile in the Thunder Peaks than anywhere else in the Realms. By far the most formidable is the dracolich Aurgloaroasa "the Sibilant Shade" (see "Dragons of Faerūn" and the older 2E "Cult of the Dragon" sourcebooks) but there have been a host of others, mostly red. A possible reason they all clustered in the Thunder Peaks is that they were driven off or feared the mighty dragon Thauglor, suzerain of the lands of Cormyr and beyond until his defeat by Iliphar in -205 DR. So in conclusion, the answer is Cormanthyr or one of its satellite, vassal elven realms depending on what historical period you refer to, but it would definitely be a situation of "claiming" rather than actually having a presence there and "ruling". -- George Krashos
MarkusTay63 02-05-08, 10:29 AM	Two things - Once again I applaud Krash's excelent research, but it can be taken a step further: -74 DR is the year the first permanent Human settlements were founded north of the Dragonreach, but isn't it entirely possible that whatever few humans WERE in that area (barbarians, explorers, refugees, etc) settled in Elven Orva? Its quite possible that Orva was one of the first Elven Realms with a sizeable human 'ghetto', as it were. If the leader of that Realm had gone power-mad, it seams likely that he would have attempted to gleen knowledge from whoever he could, including non-Elves. So what might on the surface seem like a 'nice' thing to do (inviting humans to live amongst Elves) could have been part of his greater plans which never saw fruition. Perhaps that Realm is what gave the Coronal of Cormanthyr the idea of allowing non-Elves within his Realm, which eventually lead to the creation of Myth Drannor. It would also explain why humans began worshipping Elven deities in that area, albeit under different names. The second thing is this - According to Tom Costa's sidebar on pg. 9 of the GHotR, Urd refugees from Darastrixhurt hi's built the first Kingdom in the Thunder Peaks. That would have occurred soon after the first Rage of Dragons, circa -25,000 DR. Not sure if that helps, as I'm don't know how far back you intend to go with the article. Also, it appears the Goblin (Grodd?) Kingdom would have been in western Cormyr, whereas Orva would have occupied the eastern half, and the two may have been contemporaries for a short period of time. Both would have fallen around the time of the Fall of Netheril, give or take a couple of centuries. That gives you plenty of time time between the urd Kingdom and the fall of Netheril to create just about anything you wanted there. ;)
Jiggawha 02-05-08, 11:35 AM	Krash that's impressive also I was reading Elder Evils a few days ago, it briefly mentions that the high elves (?) in the age of Myth Drannor opened a portal to the Far Realms to Father Llymic, his body is entombed in the Thunder Peaks IMO that sidebar sucks, but could be related to the topic
WotC_GregB 02-05-08, 03:34 PM	Thanks for the help guys, I appreciate it.
The Ubbergeek 02-05-08, 03:39 PM	I hope nobody will be bad at him - he at least ASKED for infos. Which means that he cared for canon, veracity and all that.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 04:30 PM	also I was reading Elder Evils a few days ago, it briefly mentions that the high elves (?) in the age of Myth Drannor opened a portal to the Far Realms to Father Llymic, his body is entombed in the Thunder Peaks -Technically, that's not even Forgotten Realms canon. See, that's what happens when they use Forgotten Realms locales in "Generic" things. -By the way, since you have Elder Evils (It seems), how does it tie to Halaster's death in Return to Undermountain?
MarkusTay63 02-05-08, 11:05 PM	I used to say that 3e Undermountain was core, and therefore Halaster DID NOT die in FR, but I was told that that kind of thinking is just plain 'wrong' by those in charge. If something happens in a core book, but it mentions specific things regarding an FR NPC or locale, then it IS considered FR canon... now. It's a 4e Multi-versal way of thinking, I suppose - and besides, you were totally aware of the Cormanthyr Elves mucking about with the Far Realms, weren't you LK? ;) I hope nobody will be bad at him - he at least ASKED for infos. Which means that he cared for canon, veracity and all that.Now you're being ridiculous. :ahem: Whenever someone asks a legitimate question regarding lore on these boards, no matter who it is, the regulars here try to help them within the best of their abilities. If anything, I would rather see designers coming here and asking us questions just to back up there own research, rather then just taking a stab in the dark and fudging things. No one knows EVERYTHING about the setting (except, perhaps, Old Sage), and everyone needs a hand sometimes sifting through the enormous amount of information we have on the Realms. This site and Candlekeep are both wonderful resources for people who need help, and I would much rather spend all my time looking something up for folks, then arguiing about the latest 4e news release. Only a stupid person DOESN'T ask questions. :detect:
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 11:12 PM	I used to say that 3e Undermountain was core, and therefore Halaster DID NOT die in FR, but I was told that that kind of thinking is just plain 'wrong' by those in charge. -As was I. If something happens in a core book, but it mentions specific things regarding an FR NPC or locale, then it IS considered FR canon... now. -That is not what I was told. I was told that by either Krash or Brian (Don't remember which one of the two it was) that an entry about Halaster's death would be appearing in AGHotR, thereby 'validating' that lore. I was not told that anything FR-specific in a 'Generic' sourcebook is considered canon. If anything, I would rather see designers coming here and asking us questions just to back up there own research, rather then just taking a stab in the dark and fudging things. -That would be cool, if it happened more often. I'm not necessarily saying that it needs to happen more often, but...;)
MarkusTay63 02-05-08, 11:16 PM	At least it shows a love and respect for established lore, which is always a BIG plus when demonstrated by those 'in charge'. :)
Old Sage 02-06-08, 01:24 AM	No one knows EVERYTHING about the setting (except, perhaps, Old Sage), and everyone needs a hand sometimes sifting through the enormous amount of information we have on the Realms.I'll admit, even I need help sometimes. ;) Granted, it's rare indeed when I'll ask a Realmslore question [excluding the heap that currently exist in the backlog of questions that I've posed to Ed over at Candlekeep]. But I do have one or two weak spots when it comes to the Realmslore. Like when it comes to rules and FR-specific mechanics that reflect certain Realmslore elements. I'm still just a clueless berk who often needs as much assistance as I can get from those who are more accustomed to the FR/D&D rules sets. Take the concept of elven High Magic for example... even after all my years with the Realms [since 1987], I still don't fully understand it. :P
Old Sage 02-06-08, 01:27 AM	-That is not what I was told. I was told that by either Krash or Brian (Don't remember which one of the two it was) that an entry about Halaster's death would be appearing in AGHotR, thereby 'validating' that lore. I was not told that anything FR-specific in a 'Generic' sourcebook is considered canon.Rich Baker also confirmed it in his Q&A scroll on the 15th June '07:- "Yes, Halaster is no more. You'll see an entry to that effect in the Grand History when it comes out."
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 01:36 AM	Take the concept of elven High Magic for example... even after all my years with the Realms [since 1987], I still don't fully understand it. :P -It's very simple now. It's just Epic Magic. :) Rich Baker also confirmed it in his Q&A scroll on the 15th June '07:- "Yes, Halaster is no more. You'll see an entry to that effect in the Grand History when it comes out." -Either way, the effect is the same: It didn't become Forgotten Realms canon until it was printed in a Forgotten Realms product.
Old Sage 02-06-08, 01:44 AM	-It's very simple now. It's just Epic Magic. :)I suppose now would be the time that I note that I also have difficulties understanding the Epic Magic system. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 02:07 AM	I suppose now would be the time that I note that I also have difficulties understanding the Epic Magic system. ;) :shifty: -I do too, but I don't tell anyone. Just smile and nod, and no one asks questions... :)
MarkusTay63 02-06-08, 11:07 AM	I have no clue how to use it either, so join the club. :D I don't run epic games, so its never been a problem, and if I need the 'villain' to do so, it just happens - I don't need rules for that. ;) Well, at least the three of us can be glad all of that is being chucked out with 4e - Epic spells are just the ones that go from 21 to 30 now, otherwise all of the mechanics will be the same. So you see, 4e does have its merits, at least as far as the rules are concerned.
18DELTA 02-06-08, 11:07 AM	-:eek: 18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 12:28 PM	Well, at least the three of us can be glad all of that is being chucked out with 4e - Epic spells are just the ones that go from 21 to 30 now, otherwise all of the mechanics will be the same. So you see, 4e does have its merits, at least as far as the rules are concerned. -If you go by the definition, that Epic Magic is magic that surpasses the boundaries of normal spellcasting, then Epic Magic is going to be anything 30+, since 30 is going to be the new boundary of spellcasting.
Jiggawha 02-07-08, 06:17 AM	-Technically, that's not even Forgotten Realms canon. See, that's what happens when they use Forgotten Realms locales in "Generic" things. yea, it's ridiculous, in this case the concentration of elder evils per square mile, tough I've always considered these things canon, even liked some sidebars in MMs 3-5, obviously they are intended for FR fans, so they're canon also Pandorym is in there
WotC_GregB 02-07-08, 11:06 PM	Seeing as we're promoting epic-level play for 4th edition, you can expect to see some serious attention given to elven high magic. I was hoping to have an epic-level "Create Mythal" ritual in an FR book I was working on (I won't say which book), but after a talk with the designers, we agreed it was better to wait until we can devote a large amount of thought (and writing) to dealing with elven high magic. However, I did end up including several rituals inspired by peoples' favorite spells from another thread I started a month or two ago. I'm still (relatively) new to the realms, but I try to use the forums and sites like Candlekeep to make sure I'm true to the lore and the fans. On the other hand, I'm not going to be shy about creating new lore as appropriate. Hopefully you'll see a little of both when the article I'm working on (and the book) appear. Thanks again for the help. :)
18DELTA 02-07-08, 11:52 PM	Seeing as we're promoting epic-level play for 4th edition, you can expect to see some serious attention given to elven high magic. I was hoping to have an epic-level "Create Mythal" ritual in an FR book I was working on (I won't say which book), but after a talk with the designers, we agreed it was better to wait until we can devote a large amount of thought (and writing) to dealing with elven high magic. However, I did end up including several rituals inspired by peoples' favorite spells from another thread I started a month or two ago. I'm still (relatively) new to the realms, but I try to use the forums and sites like Candlekeep to make sure I'm true to the lore and the fans. On the other hand, I'm not going to be shy about creating new lore as appropriate. Hopefully you'll see a little of both when the article I'm working on (and the book) appear. Thanks again for the help. :) -You just got a +1 in my book. I think it would help the community if more developers and designers posted on these forums regularly. Plus Rich would get a welcome relief from angry posters. Right now my dog and cat are freaking out about something. Chasing each other around. Ripping and romping, the little freaks!!!:D 18DELTA:cloud9:
MarkusTay63 02-08-08, 12:59 AM	-I think it would help the community if more developers and designers posted on these forums regularly. Plus Rich would get a welcome relief from angry posters.QFT - I would love to see more back-and-forth like this with designers; the fans of the setting are actually one of its biggest assets, so don't be afraid to use us. ;) ...Chasing each other around. Ripping and romping, the little freaks!!!Your pets, or the designers? :confused: :P :D
18DELTA 02-08-08, 11:23 PM	QFT - I would love to see more back-and-forth like this with designers; the fans of the setting are actually one of its biggest assets, so don't be afraid to use us. ;) -QFT!!!:) 18DELTA;)