Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grishmal 01-30-07, 11:48 PM	Did the time of troubles take place outside of Faerun as well as within? Did the gods talk Kara-Tur? Are there now dead magic zones in Zakhara?
MarkusTay63 01-31-07, 12:58 AM	AFAIK, yes. Originally, according to the Gold boxed set, those areas had their own Overgods so probably weren't affected. However, when newer material came out all of Abeir-Toril was affected by the time of troubles, and the gods walked there as well.
Lord Karsus 01-31-07, 01:16 AM	Did the time of troubles take place outside of Faerun as well as within? -Outside of Faerûn, yes. Outside of Realmspace, no. Did the gods talk Kara-Tur? -Yes. Are there now dead magic zones in Zakhara? -If you want there to be, then there are. Dead Magic zones are not specific to the Time of Troubles, though, I hope you know. The Time of Troubles did contribute to the creation of many of them, though. Anyway, I'm sure there is at least 1 Dead Magic Zone in all of Zakhara.
see 01-31-07, 04:32 AM	In the 1990 hardback Forgotten Realms Adventures, page 1, it's said that Kara-Tur did have the gods walking around. What effect they had is unknown -- Eliminster's source says that the gods all went up to the mountains and meditated, while Vangderhast's sources say they caused as much trouble as they did in Faerun. Zahkara's chronology has never been firmly tied to Faerun's, as best I can tell. Whether and how the gods messed with it is unknown. Maztica's chronology is known, and it's pretty clear from its official history that it was not affected by the gods the way Faerun was. The big deity-intervention crisis there happened three years after the ToT.
BrianCritchley 01-31-07, 09:56 AM	maybe they caused trouble bny meditating?
Cowboy_Neal 01-31-07, 07:14 PM	Speaking of the time of troubles, what year(s) did it happen in? I read the Tilverton, Shadowdale, Waterdeep trilogy years ago but don't remember.
Faraer 01-31-07, 07:19 PM	Tom Costa's article seems to have fallen off wizards.com, but here it is (http://web.archive.org/web/20030625082548/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/deitytrouble).
Old Sage 01-31-07, 08:16 PM	Speaking of the time of troubles, what year(s) did it happen in? I read the Tilverton, Shadowdale, Waterdeep trilogy years ago but don't remember.The year was 1358 DR.
Lord Karsus 01-31-07, 08:18 PM	Tom Costa's article seems to have fallen off wizards.com, but here it is (http://web.archive.org/web/20030625082548/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/deitytrouble). -A lot of the articles on the WotC website have either been removed, or are now a lot more difficult to find, for whatever the reason.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-02-07, 07:45 PM	AO is supposed to be the Over-God of all of Abeir-Toril and realms space. So I think everyone got bit** slapped during the time of troubles. What I want to know was majic unstable on the planes too? Or just in the realms. Because AO is not the over-god of the entire mulitverse. Right????
Lord Karsus 02-02-07, 10:58 PM	What I want to know was majic unstable on the planes too? Or just in the realms. Because AO is not the over-god of the entire mulitverse. Right???? -Correct. What happens in the Realms stays in the Realms. And anyway, there is no overdeity of the entire multiverse. The closest thing is Ptah, but he (at least now) is certainly no overdeity.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 10:30 PM	-Correct. What happens in the Realms stays in the Realms. And anyway, there is no overdeity of the entire multiverse. The closest thing is Ptah, but he (at least now) is certainly no overdeity. Ptah is only the creator of the Egyptian Parathion. They claim he created everything. Anyway if you read the last page of Waterdeep you will remember that even AO had a boss. Abeir-Toril and realms space is just AO’s little piece of the action. AO’s BOSS: “And how does your cosmos fare, AO?” The voice that was both gentle and admonishing. AO: “They have restored the Balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure.”
Lord Karsus 02-03-07, 10:37 PM	Ptah is only the creator of the Egyptian Parathion. They claim he created everything. Anyway if you read the last page of Waterdeep you will remember that even AO had a boss. Abeir-Toril and realms space is just AO’s little piece of the action. -Ptah is widely worshipped by various spelljamming personas, which has led many to believe that Ptah might have, at one point, been a much stronger deity, who might have created wildspace, thus being the closest thing there is to a multispheric overdeity, or something more perhaps. AO’s BOSS: “And how does your cosmos fare, AO?” The voice that was both gentle and admonishing. AO: “They have restored the Balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure.” -The DM/Reader is Ao's master, thus allowing the DM/Reader to be in complete control of the Forgotten Realms.
MarkusTay63 02-03-07, 10:44 PM	But if you played Spelljammer you would know that Ptah is the only universal religion, which comes in handy for a spacefaring cleric.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 10:49 PM	But if you played Spelljammer you would know that Ptah is the only universal religion, which comes in handy for a spacefaring cleric. :rolleyes: Spelljammer was the biggest mistake in D&D history and every accessory since then has ignored its existence. Besides the universe is small when compared to the infinite planes of existence in the Multiverse and that’s not even counting all the parallel Universes that are attached to the Multiverse.
Lord Karsus 02-03-07, 10:50 PM	:rolleyes: Spelljammer was the biggest mistake in D&D history and every accessory since then has ignored its existence. Besides the universe is small when compared to the infinite planes of existence in the Multiverse and that’s not even counting all the parallel Universes that are attached to the Multiverse. -You speak heresy! That proves that you are no son of mine/ours! -Every accessory in 3e has ignored Spelljamming. 2e embraced the idea.
Alediran 02-03-07, 10:54 PM	-You speak heresy! That proves that you are no son of mine/ours! -Every accessory in 3e has ignored Spelljamming. 2e embraced the idea. Where is that Banish False Clone spell when one needs it?
Lord Karsus 02-03-07, 10:56 PM	Where is that Banish False Clone spell when one needs it? -No, no, it's even better now. This is the son of one of my clones. I told KtM we should have made 'em sterile. but he wanted to see what would happen...Grumble, grumble, grumble...
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 11:02 PM	-Ptah is widely worshipped by various spelljamming personas, which has led many to believe that Ptah might have, at one point, been a much stronger deity, who might have created wildspace, thus being the closest thing there is to a multispheric overdeity, or something more perhaps. -The DM/Reader is Ao's master, thus allowing the DM/Reader to be in complete control of the Forgotten Realms. I like the Plane Scape mythology to good old crusty Path! I mean come on SpellJammer? That was one of TSRs biggest drunken mistakes. There are a lot of Over-Powers, but I don’t think that Path could be considered one of them. The Egyptian religion isn’t event he oldest religion on our planet. I don’t doubt that he created the Egyptian Parathion, but not the whole Multiverse! P.S. I would like to do like most gamers and forget Spelljammer ever happened it was very dramatic and emotional part of my childhood the day that retarded supplement was laid out on the gaming table. I think I quit playing for like two years after that!:weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep:
Lord Karsus 02-03-07, 11:04 PM	There are a lot of Over-Powers, but I don’t think that Path could be considered one of them. -Right now, no he isn't. There are only two overdeities that we know of- Ao, of Realmspace, and The High God, of Krynnspace. Theoretically, though, there is an overdeity for every Crystal Sphere. P.S. I would like to do like most gamers and forget Spelljammer ever happened... -Most of us here like Spelljammer. We're old-school...or something like that.:cool:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 11:10 PM	-You speak heresy! That proves that you are no son of mine/ours! -Every accessory in 3e has ignored Spelljamming. 2e embraced the idea. Then why did TSR stop making Spelljammer? And if you read the products form the mid to late 90’s they rarely if ever mention Spelljammer. Spelljammer turned a lot of people off to D&D when it came out.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 11:15 PM	-Right now, no he isn't. There are only two overdeities that we know of- Ao, of Realmspace, and The High God, of Krynnspace. Theoretically, though, there is an overdeity for every Crystal Sphere. -Most of us here like Spelljammer. We're old-school...or something like that.:cool: old school? According to your profile you were 3 years old when Spelljammer came out?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 11:22 PM	-Right now, no he isn't. There are only two overdeities that we know of- Ao, of Realmspace, and The High God, of Krynnspace. Theoretically, though, there is an overdeity for every Crystal Sphere. -Most of us here like Spelljammer. We're old-school...or something like that.:cool: Don't forget the Lady of Pain! She can deny all the Over-powers! And what about Jazirian and Ahriman? Ahriman is more commonly known as Asmodeus or Lucifer. Jazirian hasn’t been seen since the creation of the Multiverse. All Over-Powers in their own right!;)
Lord Karsus 02-03-07, 11:30 PM	Don't forget the Lady of Pain! She can deny all the Over-powers! -The Lady of Pain is something less, something more, both, or neither. No one knows what she is. She'd throw you in the Mazr for saying that, though. And what about Jazirian and Ahriman? Ahriman is more commonly known as Asmodeus or Lucifer. Jazirian hasn’t been seen since the creation of the Multiverse. All Over-Powers in their own right!;) -They're all known for being deities, though, not overdeities.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-03-07, 11:36 PM	-The Lady of Pain is something less, something more, both, or neither. No one knows what she is. She'd throw you in the Mazr for saying that, though. -They're all known for being deities, though, not overdeities. Well they all have their own creation myths. They were present at the beginning. Where was Path? I doubt the Lady of Pain would send me to a Maze. I doubt she would take any notice of anyone unless your a God trying to get into her city. She might throw you in a maze for saying she is less then a Deity though.
Lord Karsus 02-03-07, 11:49 PM	Well they all have their own creation myths. They were present at the beginning. Where was Path? I doubt the Lady of Pain would send me to a Maze. I doubt she would take any notice of anyone unless your a God trying to get into her city. She might throw you in a maze for saying she is less then a Deity though. -The Lady would throw you in the maze for saying she's a deity. old school? According to your profile you were 3 years old when Spelljammer came out? -You don't have to be 40+ years old to enjoy The Beatles.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-04-07, 12:10 AM	-The Lady would throw you in the maze for saying she's a deity. -You don't have to be 40+ years old to enjoy The Beatles. I never said she was a deity. I said she might possibly be an Over-Deity if not thee Over-deity. P.S. I wouldn’t say that the Spelljammer campaign was the Beatles of D&D it was more like the Monkeys or Michael Jackson. Embarrassing and best forgotten! And the true Old school gamers would agree with me.
Old Sage 02-04-07, 12:37 AM	:rolleyes: Spelljammer was the biggest mistake in D&D history...How so? ...and every accessory since then has ignored its existence.That's actually incorrect. Spelljammers still exist in FR. Both the FRCS and Rich Baker confirm that spelljamming still exists in the 3e FR cosmology. These are the earliest indications, with several more that followed in successive 3e FR sourcebooks -- such as the "thinly veiled" reference in the write-up for Kethid of Serpent Kingdoms. Spelljamming has been referenced in core 3e D&D also, through the Neogi entry in Lords of Madness.
MarkusTay63 02-04-07, 12:57 AM	Also in the novel Evermeet. Isn't Io an overpower? Or is that just my cable company? (LK probably will get the reference) I heard he was even Overpower of Greyspace, but that doesn't make sense since he was grandpa dragon. Also, just because RW Ptah is just the overgod of the Egyptian pantheon doesn't mean he is not something more in D&D. In fact, in the latest incarnation of legends & lore they moved away from the whole name 'Egyptian' and now call it the Pharoanic pantheon (probably to avoid confusion with the Mulhorandi). If your a Stargate fan, then you might figure Ptah might have been AT LEAST an Overgod of some other crystal sphere other then Earth, where perhaps the rest of the 'Pharoanic' pantheon were THE gods of choice. Besides, I've liked Ptah since the 1e Deities and Demigods. Any being who has galaxies swimming around in his eyes is just too cool. Somewhat off topic but since we are discussing gods - does anyone remember the name of the God of night/shadow that appeared in Dragon awhile back. he was also VERY cool.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-04-07, 01:01 AM	How so? That's actually incorrect. Spelljammers still exist in FR. Both the FRCS and Rich Baker confirm that spelljamming still exists in the 3e FR cosmology. These are the earliest indications, with several more that followed in successive 3e FR sourcebooks -- such as the "thinly veiled" reference in the write-up for Kethid of Serpent Kingdoms. Spelljamming has been referenced in core 3e D&D also, through the Neogi entry in Lords of Madness. The reason I think it was a mistake for TSR is as follows: 1. It has no place in a sword and sorcery type fantasy role playing game. I mean if people wanted to role play in Space there where a lot cooler games back then. Rifts! Star Trek! It was just cheesy and out of place in the D&D world. 2. It turned a lot of people off to the game, because of the cheesiness! I mean come on do you really think Spacefaring Mindflyers and planet hopping Orcs is really a great idea for this game? Darksun was pretty cool. Plane Scape was fun. RedSteel a little more stupid, but Spelljammer was by far TSR’s darkest hour! Where at in FRCS? Page number? Just because they reprinted a monster doesn’t mean they are bringing that crap back. At least I hope not. Please let me know where I can find these references so I can read them and then gash out my eyes.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-04-07, 01:11 AM	Also in the novel Evermeet. Isn't Io an overpower? Or is that just my cable company? (LK probably will get the reference) I heard he was even Overpower of Greyspace, but that doesn't make sense since he was grandpa dragon. Also, just because RW Ptah is just the overgod of the Egyptian pantheon doesn't mean he is not something more in D&D. In fact, in the latest incarnation of legends & lore they moved away from the whole name 'Egyptian' and now call it the Pharoanic pantheon (probably to avoid confusion with the Mulhorandi). If your a Stargate fan, then you might figure Ptah might have been AT LEAST an Overgod of some other crystal sphere other then Earth, where perhaps the rest of the 'Pharoanic' pantheon were THE gods of choice. Besides, I've liked Ptah since the 1e Deities and Demigods. Any being who has galaxies swimming around in his eyes is just too cool. Somewhat off topic but since we are discussing gods - does anyone remember the name of the God of night/shadow that appeared in Dragon awhile back. he was also VERY cool. They probably called it the Pharoanic Pantheon to be PC. I thought Path was pretty cool too, but he is kinda short for the creator of the Universe! I don’t think he is the creator of the Multiverse. Could be but I doubt it. Oh and I think you are referring to Erebus, the void between the stars. Lord of Darkness. And I agree he was very cool and apparently older then all the other Gods.:P
MarkusTay63 02-04-07, 01:49 AM	Yup, that was him! Whats wrong with a bald Dwarf? Don't you like mini-me? :D
see 02-04-07, 03:56 AM	I mean if people wanted to role play in Space there where a lot cooler games back then. Rifts! Star Trek! Except that it wasn't roleplaying in anything like real-world outer space, like Star Trek. It was roleplaying in an unusual fantasy setting with certain passing resemblances to outer space. It's like saying, "The Forgotten Realms were a mistake. If people wanted to play a wizard in Medieval Europe, there were a lot cooler games back then. Ars Magica!" Except, of course, that the Forgotten Realms and Ars Magica's Mythic Europe are actually have about a hundred times more in common than the settings of Spelljammer and Star Trek. And, Rifts? If Rifts isn't cheesy, there's never been a cheesy game setting ever published.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-04-07, 10:24 AM	Fine don’t believe me. Believe the public! Just look at the games sales? How many Spelljammer accessories were made? Probably thee shortest lived Campaign setting ever. I mean come on steam engines in space and Sails? I’m sure even Jules Verne would have spit on Spelljammer. It doesn’t belong in a fantasy replaying game. Anyone that thinks Spelljammer was less cheesy then Rifts should get checked out by a Psychiatrist ASAP.:P
Lord Karsus 02-04-07, 04:17 PM	How many Spelljammer accessories were made? -Quite a few, actually. It also got a six-part novel series, a primitive, early 90's computer game, numerous references in other novels, and numerous references in other sourcebooks. -MT: I've got satallite. My Uncle first got it whe Time-Warner didn't have the YES channel, since he's a big Yankees fan. After I saw how awesome satallite TV was, with all of those awesome channels, I made sure that it was eventually installed in my house as well. :)
Old Sage 02-04-07, 08:35 PM	It doesn’t belong in a fantasy replaying game.That's your opinion. Though, plenty of fan-based material, an official 3e update, and several references to spelljamming, and aspects of the setting in 3e lore would seem to counter your opinion. Plus, official comments made by Rich and several other designers also support the fact that spelljamming is still an accepted element in D&D 3e. Anyone that thinks Spelljammer was less cheesy then Rifts should get checked out by a Psychiatrist ASAP.:PIs this really necessary? You are still *new* to these boards. I would suggest you try to be a little less antagonist and start appreciating that your opinions, when expressed on a public message board, are simply that... opinions.
Lord Karsus 02-04-07, 08:54 PM	You are still *new* to these boards. I would suggest you try to be a little less antagonist and start appreciating that your opinions, when expressed on a public message board, are simply that... opinions. -I was going to mention something like that, but I thought to myself, "Nah, don't bother. It's probably just in my mind, anyway". I was also going to say it much less eloquently than that. Glad to see that it wasn't just me who was thinking along those lines, though.
MarkusTay63 02-04-07, 11:26 PM	Fine don’t believe me. Believe the public! Just look at the games sales? How many Spelljammer accessories were made? Probably thee shortest lived Campaign setting ever. I mean come on steam engines in space and Sails? I’m sure even Jules Verne would have spit on Spelljammer. It doesn’t belong in a fantasy replaying game. Anyone that thinks Spelljammer was less cheesy then Rifts should get checked out by a Psychiatrist ASAP.:PActually, if you must know, TSR didn't even think of the idea. The year before Spelljammer was released GDW won the 'Game of the Year' Award for Frank Chadwick's AMAZING genre-creating Space: 1889 Game, (http://www.space1889.org/) an RPG where you flew in space with steam-age technology. The game was excellent, original, and garnered a dedicated fan-following for several years. TSR, always the greedy little monkey, slapped together a bunch of cr@p and tried to cash in on the other companies success. Alas, Space: 1889's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space:_1889) following were very loyal and would not come over to the dark side (the SILLY darkside). Spelljammer did manage to get a few D&D players to switch settings, but since that was not TSR's intention you could call it a failure. Problem was, what worked in that game just didn't work well in D&D - why would anyone travel for months to an alternate world when all you had to do was cast a spell? It was very inefficient, and as soon as the novelty wore off it took a nose dive. However, in defense of it, both Barfright and Council of Worms were much shorter lived. At least Spelljammer had a decent run and left vestigal traces all over our nice clean settings. And as long as we are on the subject of manners, double posting is frowned upon... triple is just plain rude.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-05-07, 12:42 AM	-Quite a few, actually. It also got a six-part novel series, a primitive, early 90's computer game, numerous references in other novels, and numerous references in other sourcebooks. -MT: I've got satallite. My Uncle first got it whe Time-Warner didn't have the YES channel, since he's a big Yankees fan. After I saw how awesome satallite TV was, with all of those awesome channels, I made sure that it was eventually installed in my house as well. :) When compared to the other products in was there biggest market failure. Humm has anyone seen any new Spelljammer supplements or novels lately?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-05-07, 12:50 AM	That's your opinion. Though, plenty of fan-based material, an official 3e update, and several references to spelljamming, and aspects of the setting in 3e lore would seem to counter your opinion. Plus, official comments made by Rich and several other designers also support the fact that spelljamming is still an accepted element in D&D 3e. Is this really necessary? You are still *new* to these boards. I would suggest you try to be a little less antagonist and start appreciating that your opinions, when expressed on a public message board, are simply that... opinions. They are just that my opinions. I’m sorry you think they are antagonistic. I didn’t know your feelings for Spelljammer ran so deep. What I was trying to express was my deep seated hatred for something that almost ruined the D&D world for me and (I Feel) many others. You’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. I’m also entitled to think you a little crazy for liking Spelljammer!
Lord Karsus 02-05-07, 12:53 AM	When compared to the other products in was there biggest market failure. -As MT so graciously pointed out, both Barfright and Council of Worms had shorter life-spans, meaning that they were ended early because they were not producing enough revenue. Meanwhile, Spelljammer endured. Thus, your statements are false, and Spelljammer is not the biggest market failure for TSR/WotC. Humm has anyone seen any new Spelljammer supplements or novels lately? -Your point? Planescape was a hit, and yet, TSR/WotC decided to drop it. Grayhawk was a hit, and yet, TSR/WotC decided to drop it. Dragonlance was a hit, and yet, TSR/WotC decided to drop it.
johnnykot 02-05-07, 12:59 AM	One man's trash is another man's treasure.:)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-05-07, 01:09 AM	-As MT so graciously pointed out, both Barfright and Council of Worms had shorter life-spans, meaning that they were ended early because they were not producing enough revenue. Meanwhile, Spelljammer endured. Thus, your statements are false, and Spelljammer is not the biggest market failure for TSR/WotC. -Your point? Planescape was a hit, and yet, TSR/WotC decided to drop it. Grayhawk was a hit, and yet, TSR/WotC decided to drop it. Dragonlance was a hit, and yet, TSR/WotC decided to drop it. OK, I’ll give you Birthright, but Council of Worms was usable on any world in any setting. It took place on an Island. Council of Worms could be off the coast of any world. Regardless it deviated from the D&D genera and is therefore D&D’s biggest sin. I cannot fathom for the life of me why any gamer would defend such a retched setting. It lowers my opinion of you, but to each his own.:embarrass Spelljammer endured?
Lord Karsus 02-05-07, 01:23 AM	Regardless it deviated from the D&D genera and is therefore D&D’s biggest sin. -The D&D Genre is "Adventure Fantasy". Why can't an adventure happen in the void? What's the difference between setting a campaign in the water, on a vessel, or in the void, on a vessel. It lowers my opinion of you, but to each his own.:embarrass -Let's not even bring up my opinion of you...:nonono: Spelljammer endured? -Do you ever wonder why Spelljammer is one of the few discontinued settings that has it's own threads? -You must have missed/overlooked what Sage said: ...plenty of fan-based material, an official 3e update, and several references to spelljamming, and aspects of the setting in 3e lore would seem to counter your opinion. Plus, official comments made by Rich and several other designers also support the fact that spelljamming is still an accepted element in D&D 3e.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-05-07, 01:35 AM	-The D&D Genre is "Adventure Fantasy". Why can't an adventure happen in the void? What's the difference between setting a campaign in the water, on a vessel, or in the void, on a vessel. -Let's not even bring up my opinion of you...:nonono: -Do you ever wonder why Spelljammer is one of the few discontinued settings that has it's own threads? -You must have missed/overlooked what Sage said: If you want to play a space role playing game go play one. Don’t pollute D&D! Hey even the Netherese gave up on Spelljamming. It’s just silly! You could teleport, plane shift, or use a portal to another world. If you wanna swashbuckle around there are plenty of oceans. I’m still waiting for Sage to post the locations of those references. I have my scissors ready to cut out the Spelljammer references from my autographed FRCS book. :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep:
Lord Karsus 02-05-07, 02:13 AM	If you want to play a space role playing game go play one. Don’t pollute D&D! -What part of "Space-Faring Fantasy" is not D&D? You could teleport, plane shift, or use a portal to another world. -Unless you Planeshift to Sigil, or some other location with a multitude of gates to the Prime Material Plane, Planeshifting doesn't allow you to go to other worlds, in the sense that Spelljamming does. All of the different Crystal Spheres are on the Prime Material Plane, thereby rendering Planeshifting from Krynnspace to Realmspace a fantasy that cannot actually work. I’m still waiting for Sage to post the locations of those references. I have my scissors ready to cut out the Spelljammer references from my autographed FRCS book. :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: -Give him time then. Sage is perminently effected by a Tell Truth spell, and does not lie or make things up, like many others on these boards do.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-05-07, 02:38 AM	-What part of "Space-Faring Fantasy" is not D&D? -Unless you Planeshift to Sigil, or some other location with a multitude of gates to the Prime Material Plane, Planeshifting doesn't allow you to go to other worlds, in the sense that Spelljamming does. All of the different Crystal Spheres are on the Prime Material Plane, thereby rendering Planeshifting from Krynnspace to Realmspace a fantasy that cannot actually work. -Give him time then. Sage is perminently effected by a Tell Truth spell, and does not lie or make things up, like many others on these boards do. Depending on which cosmology you subscribe to. When you plane shift from the Outerplanes you could end you in the Realms or Krynn. There are and infinite number of Prime Material Planes. Travel by spell is quicker, cheaper, and more medieval fantasy like.
Old Sage 02-05-07, 08:27 AM	You’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine.While that is true... you'll note that I never actually criticised your opinion or your apparent dislike of the SPELLJAMMER setting. I simply noted that it was your opinion only and that it would be wise for you to respect the opinions of others while participating in discussions on a public message board. I’m also entitled to think you a little crazy for liking Spelljammer!Of course you're entitled to *think* it. Though, again, publically expressing such thoughts isn't exactly the best way for you to encourage long-standing members of this community toward discussing the Realmslore. This is simply an insulting remark -- and probably something that really should not have been posted here.
Old Sage 02-05-07, 08:28 AM	I’m still waiting for Sage to post the locations of those references.I already referenced one source -- Serpent Kingdoms. And the spelljamming references in the FRCS occur on pgs. 230 and 231. The Blackstaff novel also, which according to Steven, has a helm that is said to be a spelljamming helm. And, of course, there is the Beyond the Moons website:- http://spelljammer.org/
Old Sage 02-05-07, 08:29 AM	And, the "Shadow of the Spider Moon" module in POLYHEDRON #151. It was an interpretation of a SJ-ing like setting in 3e. The module is set completely within its own solar system -- and while it did contain details for "interplanetary" travel it never actually gave any particular focus to the Phlogiston or Crystal Spheres. It does provide 3e mechanics for SJing aspects... such as helms and Wildspace travel. SotSM doesn't set SJ in a cosmology all its own... rather presents a solitary Crystal Sphere that could be placed anywhere within the Phlogiston should you wish to draw upon the older lore for the setting.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-05-07, 10:16 PM	While that is true... you'll note that I never actually criticised your opinion or your apparent dislike of the SPELLJAMMER setting. I simply noted that it was your opinion only and that it would be wise for you to respect the opinions of others while participating in discussions on a public message board. Of course you're entitled to *think* it. Though, again, publically expressing such thoughts isn't exactly the best way for you to encourage long-standing members of this community toward discussing the Realmslore. This is simply an insulting remark -- and probably something that really should not have been posted here. I publicly expressed them; because I was shocked any true gamer enjoyed that setting. Sorry if my tone appeared insulting. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, I’m still looking for third edition references to Spelljammer crap? I reread those pages just now in FRCS and they mention flying ships, but the word Spelljammer is never used. What part of the BlackStaff Novel? I just completed it and I don’t remember Spelljamming being mentioned. I don’t have access to the Serpent Kingdoms, but I will make sure to check the next time I have it at hand. I have been to the miserable website, but the website could hardly be considered 3rd edition cannon. Glad I didn’t find anything in FRCS I would hate to take the scissors to my baby!:D
Lord Karsus 02-05-07, 11:12 PM	Glad I didn’t find anything in FRCS I would hate to take the scissors to my baby!:D -The section that Sage mentioned on Pg. 230 directly references Spelljamming, in the 'Sea of Night' section. And then, on the following page, it says, "...few people have could make a reasonable guess as to who lives there (Selûne's Tears). Fewer still have actually been there and reported back."
Old Sage 02-05-07, 11:19 PM	Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.Again, that is true. However, it's usually also an accepted practice on a public message board to respect the opinions of others and to not criticise them. I reread those pages just now in FRCS and they mention flying ships, but the word Spelljammer is never used. What part of the BlackStaff Novel? I just completed it and I don’t remember Spelljamming being mentioned. I don’t have access to the Serpent Kingdoms, but I will make sure to check the next time I have it at hand.Both Rich Baker and Eric Boyd have stated that the references in the FRCS and Serpent Kingdoms provide a grounding for SJing in FR 3e. That's canon confirmation. And there is a reason why more specific SJ-jargon is usually not used in 3e FR. I discussed this with Eric back in October of last year. Basically, the potential for game designers, who are looking to drop any further SJ references into future 3e Realmslore, still exists. However, trying to include SJ-ing lore for fans while not leaving non-SJ-fans in the dark, may suggest a limit to the overall amount of SJ-lore that can be dropped into 3e FR. In other words, not every FR fan, now, is familiar with SJ and not every FR fan is familiar with the elements of the Unhuman Wars and the IEN that have been dropped into previous editions of the Realmslore. The opportunity for game designers to use specific SJ references from 2e and from 2e FR in 3e FR will likely be somewat dictated by these facts. I have been to the miserable website, but the website could hardly be considered 3rd edition cannon.And what exactly makes the "Beyond the Moons" site miserable?
Zevox 02-06-07, 12:41 AM	@ Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron - If it means anything here, I agree with you. To me, its the single worst D&D idea ever created. Worse than Warforged or Half-Golems even, and I hate those with a passion. Including multiple worlds is one thing, but I'd prefer travel between them to be restricted to portals, teleportation, or things like the Plane of Shadows links; not space travel :rolleyes: . That said, LK and Old Sage are right, you could've watched your words better there. Definitely too many negative connotations in some of those phrases for someone who might like that thing. Zevox
MarkusTay63 02-06-07, 02:19 AM	As usual, I really can't agree with anybody. :P Although I try to remain somewhat polite at all times. ;) I really didn't care for spelljamming AS PRESENTED by the rules. I loved the concept, bought MOST of the books, etc... just never played it. Tried to start a SJ campaign to move some of my old Greyhawk group when I started running FR, but I couldn't generate enough interest. About a year later some members of my FR group started up a game, and I was invited to play, but I really wasn't interested in it enough. Like I said, I only wanted to use it to move some stuff between campaign worlds. I like reading about it, in source, on websites, in novels, etc... but I don't want to ever see it in a game. weird, huh? :thinks: The only thing I can think of for my attitude is that I must really dislike the rules, and some discussion over at CK has really got me thinking about it again. It was the helms! The rules were just too.. too.. convoluted? can't think of a better word, but anyway, several sites have improvements over the old rules so I'll be looking into it again (although I still probably won't use it). Strangely, the stuff I'm working on currently for the Elven netbook ties directly into Spelljamming, something I'm not overly fond of. :uh-huh: Go figure.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-06-07, 03:13 AM	-The section that Sage mentioned on Pg. 230 directly references Spelljamming, in the 'Sea of Night' section. And then, on the following page, it says, "...few people have could make a reasonable guess as to who lives there (Selûne's Tears). Fewer still have actually been there and reported back." Flying ships does not qualify as Spelljamming. The word Spelljammer is never mentioned on either one of those pages. Thank the Gods!
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-06-07, 03:29 AM	@ Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron - If it means anything here, I agree with you. To me, its the single worst D&D idea ever created. Worse than Warforged or Half-Golems even, and I hate those with a passion. Including multiple worlds is one thing, but I'd prefer travel between them to be restricted to portals, teleportation, or things like the Plane of Shadows links; not space travel :rolleyes: . That said, LK and Old Sage are right, you could've watched your words better there. Definitely too many negative connotations in some of those phrases for someone who might like that thing. Zevox Thanks for the support. I have been taking a beating over this Spelljammer love fest! I guess I get testy when people gang up on me. Especially when it comes to Spelljammer as it disgusts me. I wasn’t even going to mention Eberron, because I’m sure a bunch of fans would come out of the woodwork to defend that crappy setting. When it comes to D&D I’m kind of a purist! Sci-Fi and D&D shouldn’t mix. Some people like SJ I just happen to think its very unD&D.:( :( to each his own
MarkusTay63 02-06-07, 03:34 AM	I wasn’t even going to mention Eberron, because I’m sure a bunch of fans would come out of the woodwork to defend that crappy setting. Actually, on the FR boards most would probaably agree with you, just don't say that stuff on the Eberron boards. to each his ownWords to live by, my friend. ;)
Stigger 02-06-07, 04:14 AM	Well... all things considered, it's more appropriate in ships than you might think. Consider just how huge astronomy/astrology was during the Rennaisance... to the point that they were present in more than a few courts of Europe. Given the tremendous interest in the stars, it's not hard to extrapolate and extend the idea to ships flying through them. Historically, it's got a decent amount of precedence, and considerably more basis in 'fact' than does the existance of wizards. I do like the idea of it personally, not necessarily the way it was presented, as I'm far more partial to the system presented in Mage: The Sorcerer's Crusade and the sort used by the Sons of Ether in the World of Darkness, but that's just me. And, just remember, tact is your friend, and he likes being used.
Old Sage 02-06-07, 08:53 AM	Flying ships does not qualify as Spelljamming.As I said... both Rich Baker and Eric Boyd confirm them as spelljamming references. The word Spelljammer is never mentioned on either one of those pages.As for this... there is a reason, as I said above in post #53.
Lord Karsus 02-06-07, 09:12 AM	Flying ships does not qualify as Spelljamming. The word Spelljammer is never mentioned on either one of those pages. Thank the Gods! -I don't have my FRCS right in front of me, but it says something about Elven ships grown from crystal that fly into and out of the night sky. What do you think they are referencing? If you don't know, Elves grow their spelljammers from living crystal, most likely produced by the Elaorman High Magic ritual.
Tergiver 02-06-07, 09:23 AM	Lost Empires of Faerun also contains at least one spelljamming reference on page 115 - "streaking meteors" are seen in the sky, and in the same year (-2391DR) a beholder city is formed. As far as I can tell, this is a reference to the spelljammer crash that brought beholders to the Realms. Page 98 is a more oblique reference toward the Netherese experiments with spelljamming. It seems obvious to me that the spelljamming references from second edition are still there, but the details are left out, possibly to keep sensitive gamers from being overcome by the vapours.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-06-07, 05:49 PM	As I said... both Rich Baker and Eric Boyd confirm them as spelljamming references. As for this... there is a reason, as I said above in post #53. Or maybe they are too embarrassed to use the word SPELLJAMMER? Just a possibility one should consider.
Old Sage 02-06-07, 08:17 PM	Errr... no. It's largely as I said above -- the designers do this to make it easier for those newer FR fans who may not be immediately familiar with SPELLJAMMER.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-06-07, 08:24 PM	Errr... no. It's largely as I said above -- the designers do this to make it easier for those newer FR fans who may not be immediately familiar with SPELLJAMMER. Sounds like a flimsy excuse to avoid saying what a lot of people think. Spelljammer is just wrong in a D&D atmosphere. I wonder what spell Kiaransalee used to erase the existence of Orcus? Maybe we could use it on Spelljammer and erase all existence of it from recoded history! Not a permanent solution, but it sure would be fun. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Old Sage 02-06-07, 08:35 PM	Sounds like a flimsy excuse to avoid saying what a lot of people think. Spelljammer is just wrong in a D&D atmosphere.Except that there are many game designers who like the SPELLJAMMER setting, some of which have worked, and are still working, with the Realms. They've said that they like to try and provide a nod toward older SJing references in the Realmslore whenever they have the opportunity to do so. I don't think it's a "flimsy" excuse, and it's certainly obvious that few game designers subscribe to the "theory" you're proposing here -- otherwise, there'd be no SJing references in 3e FR lore. It's more likely that game designers for the 3e Realms appreciate and understand that newer fans of FR may not simply have the benefit of access to older lore like those of us who have been with the Realms since its official beginnings. And thus, make every effort to ensure newer lore is as easily accessible for such fans, as it can be... without having to know too much of the older material.
Stigger 02-06-07, 11:18 PM	Opinion does not equate to objective fact.
Grishmal 02-06-07, 11:21 PM	Wow I was just looking for a little info on the Time of Troubles but since we’re on the topic here is what I think of Spelljammer. Unlike a lot of people the space aspect doesn’t bother me that much. Stories about magic ships sailing through space to other worlds dates back to ancient Greece and possibly further, and the idea of planets inside crystal spheres comes from the dark ages. While I wouldn’t want to base a campaign in Spelljammer I wouldn’t mind using some of its aspects for an adventure or two. That said the thing that really bugged me about Spelljammer was how it forced other D&D settings together. This bugged me about Planescape too (although not so much with Ravenloft for some reason). I’m a big Dragonlance fan and I was horrified when they introduced spelljamming drow to the setting. Same with when Tinker Gnomes started showing up across Faerun and when write-ups for every large city started mentioning that there was a spaceport in the harbor. I think spelljammer worked the best with the Realms because it is such an all-inclusive setting but for the most part I prefer to keep the various campaign settings and their surrounding cosmos’s separate.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-07-07, 02:19 AM	Except that there are many game designers who like the SPELLJAMMER setting, some of which have worked, and are still working, with the Realms. They've said that they like to try and provide a nod toward older SJing references in the Realmslore whenever they have the opportunity to do so. I don't think it's a "flimsy" excuse, and it's certainly obvious that few game designers subscribe to the "theory" you're proposing here -- otherwise, there'd be no SJing references in 3e FR lore. It's more likely that game designers for the 3e Realms appreciate and understand that newer fans of FR may not simply have the benefit of access to older lore like those of us who have been with the Realms since its official beginnings. And thus, make every effort to ensure newer lore is as easily accessible for such fans, as it can be... without having to know too much of the older material. Regardless of what some game designers believe. Not like they have ever understood the fans anyway. It should always be about the fans! I will remain happy as long as the so called references remain ambiguous and the word Spelljammer is not used in any Realms accessory. ;)
Stigger 02-07-07, 02:58 AM	words just fail...
Old Sage 02-07-07, 08:15 AM	Regardless of what some game designers believe. Not like they have ever understood the fans anyway. It should always be about the fans! I will remain happy as long as the so called references remain ambiguous and the word Spelljammer is not used in any Realms accessory. ;)::Shakes head:: I think I'm done with this conversation.
Lord Karsus 02-07-07, 10:48 AM	-Sage, hold the door. Wait for me...
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-07-07, 11:32 AM	::Shakes head:: I think I'm done with this conversation. Well regardless of what we all believe, the words Spelljammer have not made it to 3rd edition. Why do you guys insist on defending this horrible setting?
MarkusTay63 02-07-07, 01:16 PM	Stigger, Sage, Karsus... I'll see you at the bar. At least its nice to see WE all agree on something. ;)
GothicDan 02-07-07, 07:23 PM	I'll hold the flares to light the path away.
Zevox 02-07-07, 08:50 PM	the idea of planets inside crystal spheres comes from the dark ages. Actually, the crystal spheres in cosmology idea far predates the Middle Ages. It originated in ancient Greece, most famously with Aristotle, and was more or less finalized by Ptolemy as part of the Geocentric system for the universe. It survived into the middle ages and up until Galileo's time mostly because the Christian church adopted it (along with a lot of other Aristotelean things), even though even back in ancient times a number of intellectuals contested it. Zevox
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-08-07, 09:39 PM	Maybe we should get back on Subject. The Time of Troubles is full of all kinds of interesting stuff. Like why did AO take down that Imaskari barrier after the Time of Troubles? Was it just then starting to bug him? P.S. Spelljammer is still a disgrace to all things D&D!!:D :P
Stigger 02-09-07, 01:28 AM	So if you're a purist, why not adopt it if it actually predates and co-exists with the time periods 'fantasy' is usually based upon? Could it be something other than fantasy purity... like personal preference maybe? :P :D
Zevox 02-09-07, 02:02 PM	So if you're a purist, why not adopt it if it actually predates and co-exists with the time periods 'fantasy' is usually based upon? Could it be something other than fantasy purity... like personal preference maybe? :P :D Tut - I never said I was a "purist". I'm not, though several of my opinions coincide with those of folks who call themselves that. It was Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron was said that. I said I simply prefer my fantasy without space travel - so I admitted from the beginning that my opinion was based in personal preference. Zevox
Stigger 02-09-07, 06:37 PM	The purist thing was directed at LLKN actually... :P
Zevox 02-09-07, 06:45 PM	The purist thing was directed at LLKN actually... :P Ah - thought it was at me, since I was the one to note the origins of the Crystal Sphere cosmology. My mistake. Zevox
Grishmal 02-09-07, 06:59 PM	Speaking of the Imaskari barrier were the gods of Unther and Mulhorand able to grant spells to clerics from outside those nations? I know their were no foreign priests of those gods before the Time of Troubles but was that because the gods couldn't give them spells or just because they choose not to?
Stigger 02-10-07, 09:16 AM	Not a clue... would presume it had more to do with xenophobia, but I have a feeling I'm wrong about it.
boards 02-10-07, 07:01 PM	Ao's restrictions means that the various pantheons have a clearly defined area of influence. For the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons that is the region of the Old Empires. If a priest from there goes into the Heartlands then he will be able to keep his spells, but Horus-Re cannot try to influence things in that area.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-14-07, 05:37 PM	Ao's restrictions means that the various pantheons have a clearly defined area of influence. For the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons that is the region of the Old Empires. If a priest from there goes into the Heartlands then he will be able to keep his spells, but Horus-Re cannot try to influence things in that area. You’re talking post-barrier. I believe the question was pre-barrier oriented. The Imaski barrier was just taken down after the time of Troubles! Why? Just because? Stingger, Purists believe that a thing should remain true to its origins and D&D at its start was a medieval fantasy setting covered with magic. Flying around in silly little Spelljammers is something best left to Rifts or some other space fairing game. Just doesn’t belong! Nuf said.
Stigger 02-14-07, 09:28 PM	That depends on your definition of purist... you could define it a number of ways, from someone who pays more attention to historical detail, to someone who uses only official canon, to someone who uses only a certain edition and its expansions while ignoring others... each of them can be labelled purists in one respect or another, each correctly so. My point is that there really isn't such a thing as a purist ultimately, at least where D&D is concerned, as it really just boils down to a personal preference. You're arguing as if your opinion were fact, which I assure is never the case, regardless of the subject.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-15-07, 04:56 PM	That depends on your definition of purist... you could define it a number of ways, from someone who pays more attention to historical detail, to someone who uses only official canon, to someone who uses only a certain edition and its expansions while ignoring others... each of them can be labelled purists in one respect or another, each correctly so. My point is that there really isn't such a thing as a purist ultimately, at least where D&D is concerned, as it really just boils down to a personal preference. You're arguing as if your opinion were fact, which I assure is never the case, regardless of the subject. So if it was my opinion that D&D exists, that would not be a fact? I think you logic is a little faulty here.;) Definition of Purist: A purist is one who desires that a particular item remain true to its essence and free from adulterating or diluting influences. Many would argue that Spelljammer is a diluting influence that is not in any way shape or form true to the essence of D&D.
Stigger 02-15-07, 08:44 PM	You're opinion would simply follow a demonstrable fact. Nothing more. However, in the case of something that cannot be 'proven' objectively, spelljammer in this case, you're simply stating an opinion. What is an adulterating or diluting influence in this case? You obviously would say Spelljammer was, but there is not way to actually prove that it was in an objective sense. It's part of canon, something that is uncontestable, so someone could easily argue that including it is a form of purism. You say it has no place within the realm of fantasy, so excluding it is a form of purism. Both are right, neither is wrong, so... you're arguing opinion, not fact. ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-16-07, 12:18 PM	You're opinion would simply follow a demonstrable fact. Nothing more. However, in the case of something that cannot be 'proven' objectively, spelljammer in this case, you're simply stating an opinion. What is an adulterating or diluting influence in this case? You obviously would say Spelljammer was, but there is not way to actually prove that it was in an objective sense. It's part of canon, something that is uncontestable, so someone could easily argue that including it is a form of purism. You say it has no place within the realm of fantasy, so excluding it is a form of purism. Both are right, neither is wrong, so... you're arguing opinion, not fact. ;) You may be right, but the last time I checked there were no direct Spelljammer references in any 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms products. So you must conclude that if it is an opinion that its an opinion held by many.
GothicDan 02-16-07, 12:28 PM	According to modern Western logic, if something is not included in the null set ("It does not exist..") then it must be "ambiguously true." So, Spelljammers "ambiguously do exist in Faerun."
Lord Karsus 02-16-07, 12:34 PM	According to modern Western logic, if something is not included in the null set ("It does not exist..") then it must be "ambiguously true." -To put it in the vernacular, for you LLKN, "If it smells like sh**, it is sh**". ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-16-07, 04:20 PM	-To put it in the vernacular, for you LLKN, "If it smells like sh**, it is sh**". ;) I agree Spelljammer smells like sh** with a side of rotting crap.:D ;)
Stigger 02-16-07, 06:50 PM	Making my head hurt now...
Lord Karsus 02-16-07, 06:57 PM	Making my head hurt now... -I have an Ultimate Sphere of Annihilation that I'd be willing to rent out to you for...25 GP an hour. That's a 50% discount off of the normal price. What say you? :cool:
Old Sage 02-16-07, 07:01 PM	I think it's infectious...
Lord Karsus 02-16-07, 07:03 PM	I think it's infectious... -Sage, I'll make you the same deal. I'm just an Archmage looking for a buck. Got a family to feed, you know...;)
Old Sage 02-16-07, 07:17 PM	I don't have any gold pieces on me at the moment. Though, if you can make the trip to Lantan... I have a nice silver Gond bell ready for payment. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-16-07, 07:36 PM	I don't have any gold pieces on me at the moment. Though, if you can make the trip to Lantan... I have a nice silver Gond bell ready for payment. ;) -Works for me. -Now then, lemme show you how this baby works...:)
Karsus the Mad 02-16-07, 09:25 PM	One man's trash is another man's treasure. And one man's treasure is another man's trash. I'm a proud dumpster diver. I've saved myself thousands scrounging parts from trashbins. Found myself a flatscreen monitor the other week, and it works, save for a barely noticable white spot in the lower left corner. ...trash=treasure. Thankfully my treasure=someone elses trash:D Sci-Fi and D&D shouldn’t mix. I love my technological dungeons and cyberorganic dragons, thank ye:P I just have a problem with how it's often presented in a setting in which it causes serious problems in my view. -To put it in the vernacular, for you LLKN, "If it smells like sh**, it is sh**". Sh** isn't the only thing that smells like sh**. You should take a wiff of my boss :twitch: Or the smell of the cooked ground beef at Taco Bell.......tho' I'm not sure about the ingredients. I hate spelljamming in FR with a passion also LLKN, but it's no reason to go insulting other peoples mental faculties if they happen to like it. But you're correct, there is no spelljamming mentioned by name in any 3e FR products, which I too am utterly grateful for. However, there's plenty of ambiguous references, which suit me just fine. People can choose to include spelljamming, or they can easily explain it as something else.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-16-07, 11:19 PM	And one man's treasure is another man's trash. I'm a proud dumpster diver. I've saved myself thousands scrounging parts from trashbins. Found myself a flatscreen monitor the other week, and it works, save for a barely noticable white spot in the lower left corner. ...trash=treasure. Thankfully my treasure=someone elses trash:D I love my technological dungeons and cyberorganic dragons, thank ye:P I just have a problem with how it's often presented in a setting in which it causes serious problems in my view. Sh** isn't the only thing that smells like sh**. You should take a wiff of my boss :twitch: Or the smell of the cooked ground beef at Taco Bell.......tho' I'm not sure about the ingredients. I hate spelljamming in FR with a passion also LLKN, but it's no reason to go insulting other peoples mental faculties if they happen to like it. But you're correct, there is no spelljamming mentioned by name in any 3e FR products, which I too am utterly grateful for. However, there's plenty of ambiguous references, which suit me just fine. People can choose to include spelljamming, or they can easily explain it as something else. They can choose to incorporate it if they want. Its their game. Like I said before “to each his own.” I’m still glad it’s not specifically named in the Realms products. Maybe there is an Epic spell I could use to erase it from my childhood and remove all the emotional damage caused by SpellJammer. :P Ahh, to remember only the good things about D&D! I would have to erase Red Steal as well to be totally happy, but I think the spell can be created!:D
Stigger 02-17-07, 05:03 AM	Lobotomy's are supposed to be helpful with forgetting unwanted things... ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-17-07, 12:10 PM	Lobotomy's are supposed to be helpful with forgetting unwanted things... ;) If it means the death of all things Spelljammer for me in my own little word then it would be well worth. Of course on could argue fans of Spelljammer have already enjoyed the benefits of a lobotomy. Maybe that’s why they enjoy it so.
Stigger 02-17-07, 03:10 PM	Or it could just be a matter of differing tastes... Homogeneity is not a virtue more often than not.
MarkusTay63 02-17-07, 05:58 PM	I wasn't planning on coming back here after leaving, but since the rest of my drinkin' buddies did... I would have to erase Red Steal as well to be totally happy, but I think the spell can be created!:DOKAY :hoppingma I agree I didn't like Spelljamming per se', and that is why in my games the Phlogiston = The Deep Ethereal. Wanna go to another planet? Sail a ship into the ethereal and there you go. 'Confused' individuals think you had to first 'lift-off' into space, but that was just a ruse started by the Arcane Consortium so they could sell more helms. You sail through the Ethereal, and everything else works exactly the same. You get the effect of Spelljamming, without leaving your fantasy traditions by the side of the road. At least thats how I play it.... (Big Elric fan here) That being said, I thought Red Steel was an ingenious twist on the standard campaign. True, I had to greatly modify it, but I loved the 'Wild West meets Fantasy' take it had. Some of the place names, NPCs, and regions were cheesy (Texerias?), but the overall concept was very intriguing. There are still bits and pieces of it in modern D&D, including the wonderful Aranea and Lupines. The Tortles I could have lived without.... :rolleyes: Unfortunately, my players weren't crazy about it, so it was dumped after only a few sessions, but I still like to use pieces of it in my Realms every once in awhile. Wyatt Elf, anybody? :D
Lord Karsus 02-17-07, 07:10 PM	If it means the death of all things Spelljammer for me in my own little word then it would be well worth. -Being the nice aspect that I am, I'll help pay for your lobotomy using Sage's Lantanese stash I just recovered.
Old Sage 02-17-07, 07:47 PM	If it means the death of all things Spelljammer for me in my own little word then it would be well worth. Of course on could argue fans of Spelljammer have already enjoyed the benefits of a lobotomy. Maybe that’s why they enjoy it so.Okay, that's enough. We understand... you don't like SPELLJAMMER. Now, why don't you take some time to respect the opinions of those of us who do and keep these comments to yourself. Nobody is forcing you to like the setting and, quite frankly, I'm becoming more than a little tired of seeing these types of comments pop up in threads that have nothing to do with spelljamming. You're quickly becoming another part of my list of reasons to spend less time here.
BrennonGoldeye 02-17-07, 10:04 PM	Hmm...Who's this then... ...sniff sniff... Ahh.. Lord_Lucien... Well Met, have at you..:duel: Spelljammer was the biggest mistake in D&D history and has every accessory since then ignored its existence. Um, no. As has been stated above.:heehee Besides the universe is small when compared to the infinite planes of existence in the Multiverse and that’s not even counting all the parallel Universes that are attached to the Multiverse. Um, no. This universe is infinite. Same as the others. No bigger nor smaller, just infinite. :cip: I like the Plane Scape mythology to good old crusty Path! I mean come on SpellJammer? That was one of TSRs biggest drunken mistakes. There are a lot of Over-Powers, but I don’t think that Path could be considered one of them. The Egyptian religion isn’t event he oldest religion on our planet. I don’t doubt that he created the Egyptian Parathion, but not the whole Multiverse! Um, no. Two does not alot make. It would be correctly phrased "There are a couple of Over-Powers". :rolleyes: I do believe the oldest religion on our planet would be animism. Watch out for that Lemur God! He's a ring-tailed tooter! Exactly when did the age of a religon have anything to do with the power of it's dieties? Think about that one before the comeback. If we follow the Over-diety thing, time means nothing. Once an Over-diety comes into existence, it has always been. Kinda makes your head hurt, huh.:uh-huh: P.S. I would like to do like most gamers and forget Spelljammer ever happened it was very dramatic and emotional part of my childhood the day that retarded supplement was laid out on the gaming table. I think I quit playing for like two years after that! Let's rephrase that to child gamers. I can understand why it might have frightened you, with the memory of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier and Back to the Future Part II making all that crazy cross cultural stuff spooky. :bigeyes: Then why did TSR stop making Spelljammer? And if you read the products form the mid to late 90’s they rarely if ever mention Spelljammer. Spelljammer turned a lot of people off to D&D when it came out. I can honestly say that if spelljammer turned them off, it wasn't that big a loss. :m: Don't forget the Lady of Pain! She can deny all the Over-powers! And what about Jazirian and Ahriman? Ahriman is more commonly known as Asmodeus or Lucifer. Jazirian hasn’t been seen since the creation of the Multiverse. All Over-Powers in their own right! As LK has said, it's Powers, not Overpowers. Also a note that Lord Jazirian has been around since the creation of His universe, not the multiverse. I believe you yourself ascibe to this theory in the second listed quote.:P old school? According to your profile you were 3 years old when Spelljammer came out? And I was 20. What does it matter. Old school is a state of mind. You'll get that someday.;) The reason I think it was a mistake for TSR is as follows: 1. It has no place in a sword and sorcery type fantasy role playing game. I mean if people wanted to role play in Space there where a lot cooler games back then. Rifts! Star Trek! It was just cheesy and out of place in the D&D world. 2. It turned a lot of people off to the game, because of the cheesiness! I mean come on do you really think Spacefaring Mindflyers and planet hopping Orcs is really a great idea for this game? Darksun was pretty cool. Plane Scape was fun. RedSteel a little more stupid, but Spelljammer was by far TSR’s darkest hour! Where at in FRCS? Page number? Just because they reprinted a monster doesn’t mean they are bringing that crap back. At least I hope not. Please let me know where I can find these references so I can read them and then gash out my eyes. Thanks for the numbers, it saved me the boldtype. 1. Maybe the people wanted to play D&D, at least those of us old enough to have something better to do those nights. If you find the fact that the realms is actually a planet cheesy, your loss.:globe: 2. Since the Spacefaring Mindflyers are now pure canon in at least 2 other books, I would no cheese. What exactly do you have against AD&D sans atmosphere? :confused: They probably called it the Pharoanic Pantheon to be PC. I thought Path was pretty cool too, but he is kinda short for the creator of the Universe! I don’t think he is the creator of the Multiverse. Could be but I doubt it. Oh and I think you are referring to Erebus, the void between the stars.Lord of Darkness. And I agree he was very cool and apparently older then all the other Gods. They called it the Pharaonic Pantheon because they were the God's of the pharaohs, not Egypt as a whole. Many more Dieties exist outside the Pharaonic Pantheon that could be described as Egyptian. Jeez... That would be older than what? Human Gods? Elven Gods? Illithid Gods? Aboleth Gods? LeShay Gods? Get the drift? :allalone: Fine don’t believe me. Believe the public! Just look at the games sales? How many Spelljammer accessories were made? Probably thee shortest lived Campaign setting ever. I mean come on steam engines in space and Sails? I’m sure even Jules Verne would have spit on Spelljammer. It doesn’t belong in a fantasy replaying game. Anyone that thinks Spelljammer was less cheesy then Rifts should get checked out by a Psychiatrist ASAP. If Jules Verne had the magical ability to.. 1.Shield himself from vacuum with magic. and 2. Cause a whole train to fly. ..I have no doubt he would have chugged his way to Luna. Well, this next one would be my cue. flexing fingers They are just that my opinions. I’m sorry you think they are antagonistic. I didn’t know your feelings for Spelljammer ran so deep. What I was trying to express was my deep seated hatred for something that almost ruined the D&D world for me and (I Feel) many others. You’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. I’m also entitled to think you a little crazy for liking Spelljammer! Easier than I thought. Deep + deep = Nada. Just how many others do you know that were adversely affected by the trauma of Spelljammer? Seems many here enjoyed it, so be done with it. Let's just let the whole sillyness drop. Besides, we don't consider it nice to be prickily with the Sage. :waits: Ahh, good stretch that. :monk:
Karsus the Mad 02-17-07, 11:37 PM	I'll start the collection plate for the operation...:twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :cookie: hey, the crumbs were in my pocket ok?
MarkusTay63 02-18-07, 01:54 AM	@LLKN - I actually agree with quite a bit you say, that is why I changed up my version of Spelljamming. However, there are nicer ways to communicate your feelings then insulting people. AND HIS NAME IS PTAH!!! I usually don't correct people like that, but it was REALLY getting on my nerves. And yes, he is most likely an Overgod, along with Io and perhaps Annam, definately the lady of pain and most likey Ahriman/Asmodeus. I figure if you are the absolute ruler of a sphere, plane, or even some demi-planes then you deserve Overgod status. See? There is no reason to get nasty, some people might find what you say more meaningful if you say it properly. Anyway, just looking through my red Steel campaign... Aranea, Avariel, Glassteel... yeah... I guess nothing good came out of that setting... :rolleye2:
Soltares 02-18-07, 02:34 AM	The whole 'setting wars' thing is silly, IMO. All of them have good aspects and bad aspects, and contrary to popular opinion, liking more than one setting is okay. In another thread, I mentioned a Greyhawk diety in a less than derogatory fashion, and it was some sort of sin against the Forgotten Realms, apparently. That's just insane. The Realms has tons of good stuff, and the quality of the Realms material *has nothing to do* with the quality of Greyhawk or Spelljammer or Planescape (which makes sense, since *they are often written by the same TSR staffers!*). Saying that some other setting sucks doesn't make your favorite setting good, it just means that you have a working mouth. The setting should stand on it's own merits, not on 'sucks less than Spelljammer.' Spelljammer was kinda fun for me. Not at all 'dramatic' or 'traumatic' even. There was some silliness in it, but how can there not be in a setting where floating eyeballs that shoot magic rays out of their head-tentacles are a major race? Beholders are even sillier than Flumph, and that's saying something. Ravenloft I didn't like much, 'though. I love stuff like Call of Cthulhu and Paranoia where you know you aren't gonna win (or even survive) anyway, but I didn't care for the AD&D attempt at horror gaming. The setting was fine, the game experience, not so much. Maybe the DMs I had for it just didn't 'get it,' or maybe it just isn't my cuppa tea. Never touched Red Steel, no opinion. Ah, Dark Sun. The notion of harsh elven desert raiders, half-giants, thri-kreen, cannibalistic halflings and playing in a setting that had integrated psionics was awful fun. Baxa's art turned me off to a lot of it, I'm afraid. Brom's stuff got me into the setting, but he went on to do other stuff. I fear that the Eberron artist (Wayne Reynolds?) is gonna do the same, and I'm gonna start drifting away. I'm shallow that way. Dragonlance had great novels and characters, but a nearly unplayable world-setting, IMO. The meta-plot pretty much ran all over everything. Unfortunately, that became the wave of the future, and the Realms started having yearly 'let's break stuff and mess everything up!' events, like the Horde thing or the Time of Troubles and Greyhawk jumped on the bandwagon with Greyhawk Wars, From the Ashes and that grotesque Vecna Lives fiasco. Yes, I'm still bitter that Lleira is dead and doesn't have 3.X Clerics, why do you ask? For that matter, I'm pretty fond of Lolth, and it sounds like she's dead this week. Bummer. When my characters outlive a half-dozen *immortal GODS,* I know that there is something drastically, fundamentally wrong with the setting. Yeah, Dragonlance pisses me off for introducing the whole idea of making by changing crap around every summer and then never again printing any support for fans who are still using the 'dead' gods, characters, cities, countries, classes, races, etc. Stop taking things away from me! I wasn't done yet! Mystara had some great ideas, and some I didn't like so much. I would love to see select parts of it cherry-picked out and revisited. Glantri was a happening place. The whole Immortals thing 'tho? Yuck. Points to them for being the first attempt at 'Epic level' D&D, but still, see 'yuck.' Oriental Adventures / Kara-Tur was an *awesome* setting. I loved the inclusiveness. If I wanted Japanese-style Asian gaming, there were two entire countries in that style, each aping different eras of Japanese history. If I wanted Chinese wuxia stuff, Shou Lung and Tu Lung, again, *two* countries in that vein, so that I could season it exactly to the era / mood I'm looking for. The decision to embrace Rokugan as the 3.5 OA setting, by comparison, turned out to be quite the dissapointment for me, even though I certainly don't dislike that setting, I just know crap all about it, so it's not useful for me at all without buying a bunch of 3rd party stuff. Al-Qadim was my favorite setting for awhile. Sha'ir, for me, where what the Warlock is in 3.5, my favorite class ever. (Although I also loved the Totem-Sister kit from Elves of Evermeet, which made for some rocking druids.)
ElberethSilverleaf 02-18-07, 02:44 AM	In what sourcebook is Ahriman discussed? I'm curious as in the real world Ahriman is another name for Angra Mainyu, the equal but evil counterpart to Ahura Mazda in the Zoroastrian religion. It wasn't until the early 1900's that the philosopher Rudolf Steiner equated Ahriman with the biblical Satan and the Hebrew demon Mephistopheles. Ahriman (evil) and Ahura Mazda (good) were both formed at once from time. Zoroastrians worship Ahura Mazda but recognize Ahriman as being equally powerful. Christian missionaries in India gave them all kinds of grief over this, because to them the Zoroastrians were saying that Satan is as powerful as Yahweh, which is/was I guess a major no no.
Stigger 02-19-07, 04:49 AM	And yet funnily those Zoroastrians were essentially the source from which those same Christian missionaries sprang really... nothing like a good bit of cosmic irony. No clue as to what sourcebook it's in though, I'd guess the new Codex books, since I don't have them and don't recall seeing that referred to as such in anything else I've come across.
Andyr 02-19-07, 12:23 PM	In what sourcebook is Ahriman discussed? I'm curious as in the real world Ahriman is another name for Angra Mainyu, the equal but evil counterpart to Ahura Mazda in the Zoroastrian religion. It wasn't until the early 1900's that the philosopher Rudolf Steiner equated Ahriman with the biblical Satan and the Hebrew demon Mephistopheles. Ahriman is taken as the original/an alternate name for Asmodeus in the Guide to Hell 2E supplement. The book plays off the Zoroastrian ideas.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-19-07, 01:20 PM	Hmm...Who's this then... ...sniff sniff... Ahh.. Lord_Lucien... Well Met, have at you..:duel: Um, no. As has been stated above.:heehee Um, no. This universe is infinite. Same as the others. No bigger nor smaller, just infinite. :cip: Um, no. Two does not alot make. It would be correctly phrased "There are a couple of Over-Powers". :rolleyes: BrennonGoldeye you should really read the thread before you throw your comments out there. Regardless Sage is right; this Thread is about the Time of Troubles, which is what we all should be discussing! I would never want to annoy the venerable Sage.:D :D
Lord Karsus 02-19-07, 05:15 PM	-Not to beat a dead horse, but I want to throw it out there. In Sacrifice of the Window, Neogi are mentioned. And, we all know where Neogi come from... -Oh, and I do think that Brennon pwned you a little bit, there. Heh, that word is so funny...
Stigger 02-19-07, 05:20 PM	Yeah, just a little... is an amusing word though.
Old Sage 02-19-07, 07:50 PM	-Not to beat a dead horse, but I want to throw it out there. In Sacrifice of the Window, Neogi are mentioned. And, we all know where Neogi come from...And, as I noted in another recent SJ discussion here, they've already been included in core 3e lore with their entry in Lords of Madness.
BrennonGoldeye 02-19-07, 08:04 PM	BrennonGoldeye you should really read the thread before you throw your comments out there. Regardless Sage is right; this Thread is about the Time of Troubles, which is what we all should be discussing! I would never want to annoy the venerable Sage.:D :D I accept. Anyway, Lk answered the entire ToT question in his first two posts. Any more questions?:)
Lord Karsus 02-19-07, 08:59 PM	And, as I noted in another recent SJ discussion here, they've already been included in core 3e lore with their entry in Lords of Madness. -Have they been? I never picked up Lords of Madness...Are they the kind we've all come to know, or did Lords of Madness change their "racial backstory"? I accept. Anyway, Lk answered the entire ToT question in his first two posts. Any more questions?:) -I did? Oh, I did!
ElberethSilverleaf 02-20-07, 12:03 AM	Now in the aftermath of the ToT we have all of these chosen. Has a chosen of any of the Seldarine been appointed?
GothicDan 02-20-07, 06:35 AM	Queen Amlaruil is the Chosen of ALL of the Seldarine. Other Seldarine who have individual Chosen include: Labelas Enoreth, Sehanine Moonbow, Erevan Illsere, and I think Illyana (sp?) qualifies as a Chosen of Angarradh...
Lord Karsus 02-20-07, 09:27 AM	-And, if you want to count Proxies as chosen, all of the Seldarine have 'em.
GothicDan 02-20-07, 03:16 PM	-I- don't want to. WotC does, for some of them, apparently.
BrennonGoldeye 02-20-07, 07:19 PM	Hmm, all Chosen are Proxies, but not all Proxies are Chosen. Or is it the other way around? :cip:
Alediran 02-21-07, 07:32 AM	I belive it was the other way. Al Proxies are Chosen, but not all Chosen are Proxies.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-22-07, 12:58 AM	And, as I noted in another recent SJ discussion here, they've already been included in core 3e lore with their entry in Lords of Madness. The core rule books are free to include them. Like I said before. I’m just glad that SJ is not mentioned in Realms lore. Nuf Said. :) LK BrennonGoldeye did not own me. As you so politely put it. She just restated the same arguments I had already refuted.:rolleyes: I didn’t think a lengthy response to all her comments was necessary as I had already shot holes in all those ideas earlier in the thread.:P Proxy’s are Chosen to be the Gods divine emissary or herald if you will. I suppose the Chosen fit that bill, but they do tend to focus on the Realms. So I would imagine there are different roles for Proxy’s. So I must conclude that yes the Chosen are Proxies. :D
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 01:16 PM	LK BrennonGoldeye did not own me. As you so politely put it. She just restated the same arguments I had already refuted.:rolleyes: I didn’t think a lengthy response to all her comments was necessary as I had already shot holes in all those ideas earlier in the thread.:P -Well, read his reponses again them. I believe that does count as a mini-pwning. Proxy’s are Chosen to be the Gods divine emissary or herald if you will. I suppose the Chosen fit that bill, but they do tend to focus on the Realms. So I would imagine there are different roles for Proxy’s. So I must conclude that yes the Chosen are Proxies. :D -The thing is that Chosen only existed in the Realms (as far as I know). When 2e became 3e, and the idea of Proxies and Seraphim were removed, the Proxies and Seraphim had to be something. Since Chosen still existed, and since they were similar enough, they were simply made into Chosen. But, even though they are similar, I believe that there are enough differences to warrant the two being seperated once more.
BrennonGoldeye 02-22-07, 08:29 PM	Mini? Pft...:w:
Karsus the Mad 02-22-07, 10:15 PM	Mini? Pft...:w: Don't **** off the mini. Mini-dogs, mini-sweats, but most importantly, mini-taco's! They rule! I can't LIVE without mini-tacos! It's the only thing that makes life bearable in Finland....so don't insult the Mini!!!!!!!!!!
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 11:27 PM	Don't **** off the mini. Mini-dogs, mini-sweats, but most importantly, mini-taco's! They rule! I can't LIVE without mini-tacos! It's the only thing that makes life bearable in Finland....so don't insult the Mini!!!!!!!!!! -How are the, uh, tacos in Finland?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 02:55 AM	Mini? Pft...:w: Mini? More like Nil.
ShadezofDis 02-23-07, 11:39 AM	Mini? More like Nil. Again, I think you'll find yourself disagreeing with everyone else on the boards. In other words, looked a lot like owned to me.
BrennonGoldeye 02-23-07, 11:56 AM	Don't **** off the mini. Mini-dogs, mini-sweats, but most importantly, mini-taco's! They rule! I can't LIVE without mini-tacos! It's the only thing that makes life bearable in Finland....so don't insult the Mini!!!!!!!!!! Hey hey now, I like bitesize. Bitesize is good.:) -How are the, uh, tacos in Finland? As long as they are not fishy tacos, it's all good. Honestly California, what were you thinking.:yuck: Mini? More like Nil. Mini? This would be a mini. Consider it bitesized. Read the posts.:lightbulb Think about the posts.:plotting: Respond with your brain:teach:This often means not responding. :rolleyes: Read what you type. :whatsthis Then, if needed, have an adult read it.:tiphat: Then post.. :ayyyy!: I'll take my warning now, and join Dan in the corner.... P.S.F.E.E.L.L.K.N- :dancin: Frat party in the corner.:dancin:
Lord Karsus 02-23-07, 12:31 PM	As long as they are not fishy tacos, it's all good. Honestly California, what were you thinking.:yuck: -Fishy tacos? Hmm...You know what? I'm not even going to formulate a response to this, for reasons that should be quite obvious for anyone who passes a Sense Motive check...:cool:
BrennonGoldeye 02-23-07, 01:14 PM	-Fishy tacos? Hmm...You know what? I'm not even going to formulate a response to this, for reasons that should be quite obvious for anyone who passes a Sense Motive check...:cool: :dice: :dice: - Hey it worked for Eilistraee :heehee , As I said, California.:cool:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 01:16 PM	Again, I think you'll find yourself disagreeing with everyone else on the boards. In other words, looked a lot like owned to me. Your opinion buddy! Go eat a fishy taco! Or reread the thread.
Alediran 02-23-07, 01:39 PM	KtM at least there you don't get fried by 36 celsius degrees most of the summer, and for someone like me who feels more comfortale with low temperatures it's very anoying (I get grumpier than Elminster when he doesn't get his weekly lady).
ShadezofDis 02-23-07, 01:57 PM	Your opinion buddy! Go eat a fishy taco! Or reread the thread. We'll take it point by point; 1) You're right! It is my opinion! I'm also quite sure it's not only my opinion but an opinion shared by many on this board :) 2) No thanks, fishy taco sounds . . . well. . . fishy. 3) Read the thread several times, I haven't seen you poke holes in anything Bren posted. I've seen you emphatically state your opinion and ignore everything said that doesn't support your opinion but I haven't seen a sound argument from you. :)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 02:10 PM	We'll take it point by point; 1) You're right! It is my opinion! I'm also quite sure it's not only my opinion but an opinion shared by many on this board :) 2) No thanks, fishy taco sounds . . . well. . . fishy. 3) Read the thread several times, I haven't seen you poke holes in anything Bren posted. I've seen you emphatically state your opinion and ignore everything said that doesn't support your opinion but I haven't seen a sound argument from you. :) Read it again then my fiend. I used fact. Not supposition.
Lord Karsus 02-23-07, 11:17 PM	THIS is the thread which I will entitle "Maximum Pwnage". I actually was at a comic book store, and I was thinking about picking up the Maximum Carnage graphic novel. -I then realized it was $35, and I put it down. ;)
MarkusTay63 02-23-07, 11:39 PM	LK BrennonGoldeye did not own me. As you so politely put it. She just restated the same arguments I had already refuted.:rolleyes: I didn’t think a lengthy response to all her comments was necessary as I had already shot holes in all those ideas earlier in the thread.:P Brennon's a chick? :confused: News to me. :thinks: I was thinking of starting my own RSE, because frankly, I don't think there are enough of them. I mean, come on... only ONE a year? :rolleye2: Mine's gonna be called "The Time of Bubbles". Let's see, I got Don Ho, Ed Sullivan, and that cute little Power Puff girl all lined up as the triumverate of evil... :plotting:
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 12:02 AM	Brennon's a chick? :confused: News to me. :thinks: -Heh. Good thing Karsus is an Equal Opportunity Employer...;) I was thinking of starting my own RSE, because frankly, I don't think there are enough of them. I mean, come on... only ONE a year? :rolleye2: Mine's gonna be called "The Time of Bubbles". Let's see, I got Don Ho, Ed Sullivan, and that cute little Power Puff girl all lined up as the triumverate of evil... :plotting: -I can't recall from where, but I'm pretty sure there is a monkey named Bubbles out there somewhere...:thinks:
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 02:25 AM	-I can't recall from where, but I'm pretty sure there is a monkey named Bubbles out there somewhere...:thinks:By Gods! You're right! :eek: I think I need to do more research, wasn't he Ronald Reagan's chimp? Lets see now, I have a Wizard (you don't think Ed's Wand was just for directing his orchestra, do you?), a Bard (Don Ho, obviously), and a Fighter (Power Puff), so I guess the monkey can be a thief! :D It works for me, but I still need an evil priest who has bubbles in his portfolio..
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-24-07, 03:31 AM	Brennon's a chick? :confused: News to me. :thinks: I was thinking of starting my own RSE, because frankly, I don't think there are enough of them. I mean, come on... only ONE a year? :rolleye2: Mine's gonna be called "The Time of Bubbles". Let's see, I got Don Ho, Ed Sullivan, and that cute little Power Puff girl all lined up as the triumverate of evil... :plotting: I thought Bren was a chic, because Bren was really annoying. So kind of reminds me of some chicks I know. Brennon is a Chick name right? Sounds like a chick. Transvestite? What?
BrennonGoldeye 02-24-07, 08:39 AM	I thought Bren was a chic, because Bren was really annoying. So kind of reminds me of some chicks I know. Brennon is a Chick name right? Sounds like a chick. Transvestite? What? That big talk from somebody named Lucien... Btw, you have been warned.
Old Sage 02-24-07, 09:08 AM	I thought Bren was a chic, because Bren was really annoying. So kind of reminds me of some chicks I know. Brennon is a Chick name right? Sounds like a chick. Transvestite? What?Was that really necessary?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-24-07, 02:20 PM	Was that really necessary? She/it started it!
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 03:57 PM	That big talk from somebody named Lucien... Btw, you have been warned.Now I'm curious, are you a guy like I always thought, or is LLKN more perceptive then me? (scarey thought)
Stigger 02-24-07, 05:32 PM	Brennon and Lucien are both male names as far as I'm aware... though the sexist 'chick' comments were tremendously unneccessary and unworthy.
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 05:41 PM	I take the blame for that, I said it first in a 'tongue-in-cheek' manner, and LLKN rolled with it. That was not my intention, and I apologize to Brennon, who I like and respect very much, regardless of his/her sex.
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 06:33 PM	It works for me, but I still need an evil priest who has bubbles in his portfolio.. -Hmm...Not many evil deities out there with the bubbles portfolio. Let's give it Talona, though. I mean, the stereotypical fantastical evil potion bubbles, froths and fizzes, right? I thought Bren was a chic, because Bren was really annoying. So kind of reminds me of some chicks I know. Brennon is a Chick name right? Sounds like a chick. Transvestite? What? -Brennon is most certainly a male name. How can that even be misconstrued as a woman's name? The closest thing I can think of is Brenda, but 'Brenda' is clearly not 'Brennon'. Now I'm curious, are you a guy like I always thought, or is LLKN more perceptive then me? (scarey thought) -Don't worry. You've still got your wits about you. ;) -Now...Back to the Time of Troubles...:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 06:46 PM	-Now...Back to the Time of Troubles...:rolleyes:I thought we had moved on to MY Time of Bubbles! So far, Don Ho has manged to steal the artifact known as the "Ukulele of Death and Destruction" from Tiny Tim, the god of andogynous whimsy. The incredibly powerful Bubbles, girl wonder, has been turned to evil by the machinations of Bubbles the Chimp. Known in another life as Mojo Jojo, Bubbles (the chimp) has placed the recently retreived Crown of Horns on her sweet little head. Meanwhile, a lone priestess of Talona named 'Toil N. Trouble', has begun to create her vilest toxin yet... "Bubble, bubble..." she chants, as her potion of "Speaking French" reaches culmination, what can... what WILL, our heroes do.... Stay tuned.
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 07:00 PM	Stay tuned. -Believe you, me. I shall...:P
Karsus the Mad 02-25-07, 01:32 PM	KtM at least there you don't get fried by 36 celsius degrees most of the summer, and for someone like me who feels more comfortale with low temperatures it's very anoying (I get grumpier than Elminster when he doesn't get his weekly lady). +36 or -36....I think we're screwed:P I thought we had moved on to MY Time of Bubbles! So far, Don Ho has manged to steal the artifact known as the "Ukulele of Death and Destruction" from Tiny Tim, the god of andogynous whimsy. The incredibly powerful Bubbles, girl wonder, has been turned to evil by the machinations of Bubbles the Chimp. Known in another life as Mojo Jojo, Bubbles (the chimp) has placed the recently retreived Crown of Horns on her sweet little head. Meanwhile, a lone priest of Talona named 'Toil N. Trouble', has begun to create her vilest toxin yet... "Bubble, bubble..." she chants, as her potion of "Speaking French" reaches culmination, what can... what WILL, our heroes do.... Stay tuned. I like this new series. Time of Bubbles...hmmmmm...I'll be waiting with tight undies til' the next episode.
Alediran 02-25-07, 05:26 PM	Here +36. And today the thermal sensation scrached 40 degrees. I'm telling you, this is a dwarven furnace during a war with orcs. -36 is far more likeable for me, at least I can cover myself with more clothes.
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 12:22 AM	+36...-36...Use real temperature measurements, dammit! :P :D
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-26-07, 02:01 AM	+36...-36...Use real temperature measurements, dammit! :P :D Yeah let’s see some Fahrenheit temperatures! America refuses to be oppressed by users of Celsius! :D :D :D :D :D :D ;)
Stigger 02-26-07, 02:49 AM	And of course we will not stop until all those other minor nations convert to standard measurement... which is pretty much everyone, so we're essentially going to have to go it alone on it, but damn them all, the world will be standardized once more... :evillaugh
Alediran 02-26-07, 07:35 AM	Yeah let’s see some Fahrenheit temperatures! America refuses to be oppressed by users of Celsius! :D :D :D :D :D :D ;) Celsius is the best when dealing with liquids. 0 Celsius is the freezing temperature of water. 0 Kelvin is the absolute 0. I never use Farenheit because it needs a multiplication to convert one number to another, while Celsius and Kelvin don't have that problem.
ElberethSilverleaf 02-26-07, 12:20 PM	I've never understood why we keep the standard system. Everything is sooo much easier using metric. But then I'm a science major and literally everything is measured metrically in science...