Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rikkiwalker 06-29-07, 12:58 AM	When are writers going to start writing about elves the way they are portrayed in books like Races of the Wild? I am tired of reading about elves living in crystal palaces and looking down their noses at every other race out there. The Silvanesti, Qualinesti, Ar-Tel Quessir; they are all whiny stuck up snobs who do nothing but blame other races for thier setbacks and problems and act like they are the gods gift to creation. I want to read about an overall culture of elves that are actually enlightened to the point of being above attitudes like that and are open minded and accepting of other races and change.
Zsych 06-29-07, 03:56 AM	If you ignore places like Netheril and Imaskar(which the elves feared, but probably including them too), born in a high level elven civilization where you've seen humans and others typically as short-lived, ugly and savage creatures... not looking down on humans should be hard. And if you respect them, its likely to be a condescending kinda respect usually, or like that of an adult to a child(with a few great humans seeming like exceptions rather than the rule). ... Plus, with a long lived species, changing your traditional view point couldn't possibly be easy. By the time you're 150+(and barely just an adult), you've likely picked up a huge amount from your parents and their beliefs, and likely no longer can change too much from their PoV. --- I think elves who never lived in the great elven cities would have a better chance of respecting other species(like wood-elves who actually manage to live in forests) btw... the stuck-up-ness, is primarily supposed to be a gold-elf trait. Others aren't supposed to be quite so annoying(although even Amlaruil disowned her daughter for loving a human)
The_Shaman 06-29-07, 06:29 AM	The moon elves are believed to be rather tolerant, on the whole. Sure, some of them - especially the nobles - are likely to be stuck-up, maybe a little more than their human counterparts. Wood elves, afaik, are living mostly in tribes or small cities, so they are not likely to have much in way of aristocracy. Also, they are described as a little introverted; I do not know if it counts as being stuck up, but at least chances are they will not actively bother you about how incredible they are. Unless you ask them about it, of course. Wild elves... I'm thinking of them as the elven variety of a nomadic or clannish tribe. If you are accepted, you're accepted. If not, they want you to leave them alone. OTOH, they are more likely to make their point with the business end of a spear or arrow rather than a harangue about how your lowly race is never up to any good etc etc etc, which is a mixed blessing.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 11:42 AM	Races of the Wild does not apply to Faerun. And I for one love Gold Elves and the Silvanesti. They are by far my favorites. And there are several others on these boards that feel the same, too. We just need authors who know how to portray them. Tolerance is not a form of 'enlightenment;' it's just another social philosophy with its own merits and drawbacks.
Boda 06-29-07, 12:58 PM	When are writers going to start writing about elves the way they are portrayed in books like Races of the Wild? I am tired of reading about elves living in crystal palaces and looking down their noses at every other race out there. The Silvanesti, Qualinesti, Ar-Tel Quessir; they are all whiny stuck up snobs who do nothing but blame other races for thier setbacks and problems and act like they are the gods gift to creation. I want to read about an overall culture of elves that are actually enlightened to the point of being above attitudes like that and are open minded and accepting of other races and change. What have you done!!!!Now the elven horde will be all over you! Run for your life!!!
pokie 06-29-07, 01:18 PM	Play RPG in LotR world for nicer elves. :)
GothicDan 06-29-07, 01:29 PM	Boda, you do realize what you just said counts as trolling, right?
pokie 06-29-07, 01:30 PM	Oh come on, trolling, shmolling... be a person...
XHereticX 06-29-07, 01:33 PM	Yes, I am. Although I still love Sun Elves and DL's nesti elves, I think elves need a little change to them That is why the new setting I am working on with my friend has nonarrogant, nonprejudiced elves who were cowed by Goblin empires ages ago:D
pokie 06-29-07, 01:36 PM	an easy solution is to get rid of humans - the most boring "fantasy" race ever, imo.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 01:38 PM	an easy solution is to get rid of humans - the most boring "fantasy" race ever, imo. My setting puts the humans at a minimum too. The dominant races are Ogres and Goblins.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 01:47 PM	I prefer settings that either go almost-completely human, or almost no human at all (or no human at all). I've played with both types of settings.
pokie 06-29-07, 02:50 PM	I want to do a pure aberrations prime world at some point. With other races being outsiders.
Boda 06-29-07, 07:12 PM	Boda, you do realize what you just said counts as trolling, right? I tought this was about elfs?!
Dr_Tough 06-29-07, 11:55 PM	I want to do a pure aberrations prime world at some point. With other races being outsiders. A game where the PCs were all beholders would be boss. Fake edit: Elves are "stuck up" because they're the best and they know it. They have the best magic, the best history, the best architecture, the best art, etc. Basically the same reason that the French were "stuck up" in the 1700's, the British in the 1800's, and Americans now.
pokie 06-30-07, 12:52 AM	Americans do not have the best art right now, and some countries rival their tech level... However, Americans are still stuck up :).
GothicDan 06-30-07, 01:09 AM	I think that most Americans are too worried about having their personal desires appeased without any actual work to be truly stuck up. Then again, I'm a (somewhat) Anti-American American elitist bastard. And I'm wholly a Sun Elf.
pokie 06-30-07, 01:18 AM	Many Americans are certainly more arrogant in their attitude toward the rest of the world than FR elves ever were.
Dr_Tough 06-30-07, 01:47 AM	Many Americans are certainly more arrogant in their attitude toward the rest of the world than FR elves ever were. Oh, I wouldn't go that far. Sun elves certainly have even the James K. Polks of America beaten in terms of nationalism and pride. I remembered in Elminster in Myth Drannor that the elves wanted to kill immigrants and outsiders. Even the most extreme position in the current debate on the subject involves deporting illegal immigrants. No one that I know of is saying we should kill foreigners that come near us (hyperboles on the policies of the current government aside).
pokie 06-30-07, 01:48 AM	hehe
Drew1369r 06-30-07, 02:07 AM	Many Americans are certainly more arrogant in their attitude toward the rest of the world than FR elves ever were. You must be French... or French Canadian. Elves are stuck up because they can be... they live longer but thats about it... they don't have the best magic, they don't have the best equipment, nor the best history, crown wars anyone... loss of myth Drannor... their past is just as turbulant as the other races. The Sun elves are just racist, much like the Drow. Exception being that Sun elves MIGHT work side by side with a human and soon enjoy the company!
boards 06-30-07, 02:29 AM	"Elves are "stuck up" because they're the best and they know it. They have the best magic, the best history, the best architecture, the best art, etc" I just have this bad image of a gold elf in spandex saying "Here at Evermeet, we're better than you and we know it".:D :P *Dodgeball ftw
The_Shaman 06-30-07, 03:44 AM	Eeh, with sun elves it's a bit of a "sneer and let sneer" situation. Drow-anything else relations tend to be a little more of "who kills first, kills best"
Stigger 06-30-07, 03:59 AM	So what culture out there hasn't been arrogant, prideful, and annoying at some point? I'd be interested to find out really... ;)
captaincarot 06-30-07, 08:28 AM	So what culture out there hasn't been arrogant, prideful, and annoying at some point? I'd be interested to find out really... ;) kobolds! and i've been trying to stop my self from posting this well stop getting stuck up em then as a reply to the original question. but i can't i'm sorry. bad jason naughty jason i'm gonna have to go out and punish my self for that now.
pokie 06-30-07, 12:18 PM	You must be French... or French Canadian. Nope, i have been here, in the USA, for the most of my life. And I have been to France only when I was 12 (never been to Canada). But I have been to many parts of the world... The attitude of many Americans towards foreign countries and the USA foreign policies has made it the bully of the world, whom almost everyone dislikes.
captaincarot 06-30-07, 12:36 PM	i don't dislike americans at all. they are in general lovely people all the one's i've met have been anyway. their president is an arse but the rest of em seem nice.
Eladrinstar 06-30-07, 12:41 PM	Okay, how come when Dark Elves did bad things, the Seldarine was all "You are banished!". But when the Sun Elves sundered the world the elven gods were like "Hey, you want a tree. It's all shiny and magic!" The Sun Elves killed millions of beings out of their own idiocy of trying to make a homeland in an already beautiful world that was probably full of places to be all elven-like. And thank you for knowing Bush is the problem. Lot's of foreigners think we all like the idiot in office, but only 30% approve of him.
pokie 06-30-07, 01:26 PM	You did vote this idiot into office :)
captaincarot 06-30-07, 01:29 PM	You did vote this idiot into office :) twice for moradins sake twice.
Eladrinstar 06-30-07, 02:24 PM	Because he used our fear of terrorists and lied to us all.
Boda 06-30-07, 02:33 PM	What is the ''best history''? Americans arent stuck up, just ignorant about the world. Why would a people with acess to knowledge and a fairly good life quality choose to be ignorant, ...well, that another thing alltogether.
Eladrinstar 06-30-07, 02:56 PM	What is the ''best history''? Americans arent stuck up, just ignorant about the world. Why would a people with acess to knowledge and a fairly good life quality choose to be ignorant, ...well, that another thing alltogether. I would just like to point out you are generalizing. We aren't as stupid as people point out. At least the people I hang out with aren't.
Drew1369r 06-30-07, 04:02 PM	Interesting how this turned into an American bashing thread... just like the normal world... can't figure out why something happened... blame Bush and blame Americans... its all of our fault anyway who cares.
GothicDan 06-30-07, 06:33 PM	Okay, how come when Dark Elves did bad things, the Seldarine was all "You are banished!". But when the Sun Elves sundered the world the elven gods were like "Hey, you want a tree. It's all shiny and magic!" The Sun Elves killed millions of beings out of their own idiocy of trying to make a homeland in an already beautiful world that was probably full of places to be all elven-like. All Elves save the Dark Elves engaged in the Elven High Magic Ritual that started the Sundering, and the central caster was a Wood Elf. And they did it with no foreknowledge that such destruction would result. The Ilythiiri knew exactly the evils they were performing every step of the way. Try to keep up with historical accounts before slinging mud. There are some mighty bad Sun Elves out there, no doubt, but also some mighty good ones. Their capacity for greatness - for good or for evil - is personally what makes them my favorite culture.
Dr_Tough 06-30-07, 07:15 PM	What is the ''best history''? The most glorious history filled with heroes, victorious battles, romances, etc. Think Virginia versus, say, the Sahara Desert. Interesting how this turned into an American bashing thread... just like the normal world... can't figure out why something happened... blame Bush and blame Americans... its all of our fault anyway who cares. That's kind of my fault, I compared the haughtiness of the sun elves to the haughtiness of various human countries throughout recent history, and used the USA for present day.
XHereticX 06-30-07, 07:18 PM	Interesting how this turned into an American bashing thread... just like the normal world... can't figure out why something happened... blame Bush and blame Americans... its all of our fault anyway who cares. America bashing is equivelent to common sense, we at least bashing America in its current state is. As for Sun Elves, I might hate them if their women weren't so damn hot, but still, I think all elves have split personalities. One moment they are lounging around in the patio watching the songbirds sing, the next they are using epic High magic spells and going all genocide happy. scary, and just plain awesome:D :D
Boda 06-30-07, 07:25 PM	The most glorious history filled with heroes, victorious battles, romances, etc. Think Virginia versus, say, the Sahara Desert. Wwwwaaaayyyy diferent time spans, and besides your forgetting the they arent the oldest race around, and the history of others is very unknow. But they sure win in the genocidal contest.
The Ubbergeek 06-30-07, 07:30 PM	i don't know, but you don't HAVE to play by the stereotypes. You could very well have an elf who, while very proud of his heiritage, keep an open mind for foreign cultures. Like a sort of scholar. Elves are kind of like the 'high cultures' of our past - like Greece, the Iranians, Indians, Chineses.... often, the past is just TOO glorious and high. Overbearing and demanding. I think the haughtyness is frequently more forced by social mores and traditions, than really though. It must be hard to be an elf, really.
Dr_Tough 06-30-07, 07:31 PM	Wwwwaaaayyyy diferent time spans, and besides your forgetting the they arent the oldest race around, and the history of others is very unknow. But they sure win in the genocidal contest. That's the point, no one knows about the other, older races. So they can't compare them to the sun elves. How is some guy in Cormyr or whatever going to compare elven society to some race he's never even heard of. That's like comparing Chinese society to space lizards or something.
XHereticX 06-30-07, 07:43 PM	That's like comparing Chinese society to space lizards or something. Who says we aren't?;) Elves are arrogant simply because they generally as a race are more powerful, experienced, and educated than those not of their race. This arrogance also stems from an anger at the younger races for disposing of their great empires and building so called "barbaric" civilizations from it. I have a theory, that the elves initially as a race were CG and unarrogant, but as the world began to wear on them and forget their achievements, they started to nurse a cold anger for the world and the other races, which they mask with simple arrogance and elitism.
The Ubbergeek 06-30-07, 08:08 PM	Well, my analogies hold... Listen to some chinese ultranationalist, by example; 'the foreigners stole us everything and broken China! Let's work on returning it to it's full glory!'
XHereticX 06-30-07, 08:11 PM	Well, my analogies hold... Listen to some chinese ultranationalist, by example; 'the foreigners stole us everything and broken China! Let's work on returning it to it's full glory!' That was right before all that crap called the Cultural Revolution happened, please don't remind me:rolleyes: I doubt the elves will sink so low as to resort to Communism though
Dr_Tough 06-30-07, 08:27 PM	Well, my analogies hold... Listen to some chinese ultranationalist, by example; 'the foreigners stole us everything and broken China! Let's work on returning it to it's full glory!' Except that foreigners did actually steal from and exploit China... That's pretty much Chinese history in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
The Ubbergeek 06-30-07, 08:45 PM	Except that foreigners did actually steal from and exploit China... That's pretty much Chinese history in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Yes, and so it happened to the elves; But things are not so black and white. The chineses are not so innocent, as they have also agressed peoples around, stole lands, etc.... Ask a vietnamese, by example. Again, my analogy hold, really. Perhaps even the 'communism' bit as there is some analogies to be made to pre-modern socialistic ideas. (and the chinese nationalism IS on the rise... Lot of hot winds directed at Japan, and surrounding countries. And Taiwan, of course.)
XHereticX 06-30-07, 08:55 PM	Yes, and so it happened to the elves; But things are not so black and white. The chineses are not so innocent, as they have also agressed peoples around, stole lands, etc.... Ask a vietnamese, by example. Again, my analogy hold, really. Perhaps even the 'communism' bit as there is some analogies to be made to pre-modern socialistic ideas. (and the chinese nationalism IS on the rise... Lot of hot winds directed at Japan, and surrounding countries. And Taiwan, of course.) Nobody is innocent. But if everyone sought vengence for every little slight, the world would be a puddle of blood and ash right now. So none of the elves arrogance or elitism, nor that of the chinese, is truly justified in any way. Yet the fact that one would pursue such desires is only natural, so neither is it abbhorridly despicable.
Max the Immortal 06-30-07, 09:19 PM	The Ilythiiri knew exactly the evils they were performing every step of the way. I'll give you that, but all (or virtually all) of their evil acts were part of an arms race in response to aggression from Aryvandaar. The Vyshaanti atrocities were in the same league at those of the Ilythiiri; they even annihilated the nation of Miyeritar. When the Descent occurred, all dark elves, even the surviving Miyeritari, were forever excommunicated from the favor of the Seldarine. Given the contrast between Arvandor and the Demonweb Pits, this is tantamount to enternal damnation for the entire race. The sun elves, not even the Vyshaanti did not face any sort of divine retribution. The sun elves' vulnerability to corruption persisted, as illustrated by House Dlardrageth, and yet they still retained the favor of the Seldarine. Could this double standard be at least in part because Corellon is gold-skinned and Araushnee/Lolth is black-skinned?
XHereticX 06-30-07, 09:26 PM	I'll give you that, but all (or virtually all) of their evil acts were part of an arms race in response to aggression from Aryvandaar. The Vyshaanti atrocities were in the same league at those of the Ilythiiri; they even annihilated the nation of Miyeritar. When the Descent occurred, all dark elves, even the surviving Miyeritari, were forever excommunicated from the favor of the Seldarine. Given the contrast between Arvandor and the Demonweb Pits, this is tantamount to enternal damnation for the entire race. The sun elves, not even the Vyshaanti did not face any sort of divine retribution. The sun elves' vulnerability to corruption persisted, as illustrated by House Dlardrageth, and yet they still retained the favor of the Seldarine. Could this double standard be at least in part because Corellon is gold-skinned and Araushnee/Lolth is black-skinned? Nope, its just that the Ilythiiri as a whole fell into darkness when they decided to embrace the drow pantheon. The sun elves, despite their atrocities, in the end, were mostly still loyal to Corellon and the Seldarine. The Sun Elves that needed to be punished (Vyashaar, Dlargardreth, the Fey-Ri) were. Also, The Elves never intended to punish the Ilythiiri as a whole, they overdid their High Magic, again.
The Ubbergeek 06-30-07, 09:38 PM	To be the devil advocate.... Corelion have a side of him less known, a god of penitance and all. There was in the old book of nonhuman gods (A greyawhk-only myth, perhaps) a tale about him and a mortal elf man who did something bad, and accepted a VERY hash punishment by Corelion. But COrelion admitted himself that his punition was exagerated, and made basicaly a very humble sorry to the mortal elf. (sorry, forgot most of the tale, if someone know it...) I wonder at times if he is not sad at the whole mess.... Thinking of the drow as lost children, and secretly, maybe even weep at the lost - and the lost of his ex-wife. It fits with what with know of his links to Eilistraee, I say.
Lord Karsus 06-30-07, 10:39 PM	I'll give you that, but all (or virtually all) of their evil acts were part of an arms race in response to aggression from Aryvandaar. -Untrue. Even before Aryvandaar and Ilythiir were formally established, the Dark Elves of Atornash were enslaving Wood Elves, attacking the trade routes of Sharlarion, and stealing the magic from the Aquatic Elves. Could this double standard be at least in part because Corellon is gold-skinned and Araushnee/Lolth is black-skinned? -Oh, enough with that stupidity...Yes, yes, Sun and Drow Elves exist to show the racial superiority of whites over blacks...:rolleyes: -And, might I remind everyone that political commentary is against the CoC.
GothicDan 06-30-07, 10:45 PM	And Aryvandaar - or Sharlarion as it was originally known, named after a MOON ELF - had no hints of corruption or evil doings prior to the rise of the Vyshaanti to power. And the Vyshaanti were hunted down and killed to an elf, as mandated by a council of Elves formed of all subraces, at Corellon's word. This discussion has been had a dozen times before. Ultimately, it comes down to people willing to read and interpret LEoF in the vein in which it was written, versus those who specifically try to twist the words there to mean things they do not.
Lord Karsus 06-30-07, 10:55 PM	I wonder at times if he is not sad at the whole mess.... Thinking of the drow as lost children, and secretly, maybe even weep at the lost - and the lost of his ex-wife. It fits with what with know of his links to Eilistraee, I say. -Somewhere on these boards, I wrote up a "heresy" concerning this- instead of shunning Drow, servants of the Protector are supposed to try to bring Drow back into the fold. All in all, it was very much like what Eilistraee tries to do.
MarkusTay63 06-30-07, 11:01 PM	I don't know if he misses her, but she had the prettiest face he ever came across. ;) BTW, is anyone else looking forward to the Billy and Mandy "Spider Queen" episode? And yeah, she has an elven face and a spider's body. The shows pokes fun at D&D a lot, so it should be interesting how much the writers really know. It could very well be our South Park/WoW episode.
Drew1369r 07-01-07, 02:32 AM	Who says we aren't?;) Elves are arrogant simply because they generally as a race are more powerful, experienced, and educated than those not of their race. This arrogance also stems from an anger at the younger races for disposing of their great empires and building so called "barbaric" civilizations from it. I have a theory, that the elves initially as a race were CG and unarrogant, but as the world began to wear on them and forget their achievements, they started to nurse a cold anger for the world and the other races, which they mask with simple arrogance and elitism. Perhaps if the didn't invade Faerun anyway they wouldn't have turned into such punks... Elves have no right to be arrogent in Faerun... they are just as screwed up as the Humans... they just wont admit it
Wizardman 07-01-07, 03:24 AM	The Ssri'Tel'Quessir were screwed when Corellon failed to take back "control" of them from Araushnee. This doesn't absolve the guilty among them of their crimes, but if Corellon (and the rest of the Seldarine) left them to Lolth and Vhaeraun. Eilistraee knew exactly what would result, which is why she begged her father to exile her so that she could protect the Ssri'Tel'Quess. I have no idea why Corellon even put her in the position of having to do that; if he could strip her of her godhood, surely he could take back control of the dark elves as well. Eilistraee sacrificed almost everything just for the chance to protect the dark elves. She knew was outnumbered (even before the drow pantheon expanded further), she knew she was outgunned, and she did it anyway. She doesn't get nearly enough credit for that, and Corellon doesn't take nearly enough flack. And couldn't somebody do something about those dark elves of Miyeritar who chose not to change back so that they wouldn't become drow?
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 03:28 AM	Your spoiler was the whole reason the novel left a bad taste in my mouth. Don't get me wrong, the writing and storytelling were very good, I was just major-league disappointed with the ending. I guess RAS still has the market cornered on 'good Dark Elves'... and maybe Elaine. :(
Wizardman 07-01-07, 03:36 AM	Your spoiler was the whole reason the novel left a bad taste in my mouth. Don't get me wrong, the writing and storytelling were very good, I was just major-league disappointed with the ending. I guess RAS still has the market cornered on 'good Dark Elves'... and maybe Elaine. :( I must admit, it served to balance things out a bit further. A lot happened at the end of that novel, and on the macro scale most of it was good. I can see why they decided to make it less than completely good, even if it doesn't exactly reflect well upon certain divine personages.
The_Shaman 07-01-07, 04:26 AM	Okay, how come when Dark Elves did bad things, the Seldarine was all "You are banished!". But when the Sun Elves sundered the world the elven gods were like "Hey, you want a tree. It's all shiny and magic!" The Sun Elves killed millions of beings out of their own idiocy of trying to make a homeland in an already beautiful world that was probably full of places to be all elven-like. Is this a rhetorical question? You stick by a deity's estranged wife-***-nemesis and see where it gets you.
Derren S. 07-01-07, 04:31 AM	Okay, how come when Dark Elves did bad things, the Seldarine was all "You are banished!". But when the Sun Elves sundered the world the elven gods were like "Hey, you want a tree. It's all shiny and magic!" The Sun Elves killed millions of beings out of their own idiocy of trying to make a homeland in an already beautiful world that was probably full of places to be all elven-like. Yes, this is a major pet peeve of mine (among other things). Netheril: You endangered the weave with your selfish acts. Down into the dust with your civilization and no more level 10+ magic for you. Elves: You have endangered the weave, killed million beings and split the continent in half because of your selfish desires. Be careful next time but don't worry, you can keep your extremly powerfull and highly destructive magic. Why doe elves get away with all those idiotoc things while humans and other races get punished for similiar acts?
Zsych 07-01-07, 06:49 AM	Because elves are basically good looking humans, and good looks sway a lot of weak minded people... apparently also including gods :P More seriously though, Mystra deciding to defend herself is somewhat understandable. It was Mystryl who was willing to allow all kinds of magic to proliferate(although the fact that elven kingdoms slowly lost their greatest magic, implies that Mystryl might not have been too supportive of that which might decrease the proliferation of magic(by killing too many magic users)) Whereas, the Netherese for the most part(I think), didn't create widely destructive magic. Focussing more on their shiny new magical TVs, instead of creating large scale magical nukes(even if there was some level of competition between Archmages, I don't think anyone was actually trying to even drop the other guy's enclave).
The Ubbergeek 07-01-07, 12:05 PM	mystryl was ln, and corelion is cg. cqfd.
Derren S. 07-01-07, 12:10 PM	So a good god cares less when its followers kill millions of beings with their spells than a neutral god? How many people died because of Karsus anyway? I suppose a lot less than because of the sundering. Also Correlon had nothing to say in this issue. If Mystril wanted to she could simply remove high magic.
GothicDan 07-01-07, 12:30 PM	Corellon lets his Children do as they wish, and then has them deal with the consequences. That's why even Evil Elves are tolerated in their society. What the Dark Elves did - turning from the Seldarine completely - went against Elven culture, not alignment.
The Ubbergeek 07-01-07, 12:30 PM	A good god tend to be more leniant than a neutral god, and an evil god, well.. This is not to say that Corelion can't punish. In the famous tale I mentioned, he punished the bad actions of an elf - and even to injustice. My point is, he punished the evil elves quite. There is also, to this a point of balance - MANY a nethereese was coldly neutral or ended up evil, where elves were and are still a force for good. It's kind of asking why the God have not punished the USA with divine smackdown for the hard-handed things they did in WW2 and the subsequent Cold War era.
The Ubbergeek 07-01-07, 12:32 PM	Corellon lets his Children do as they wish, and then has them deal with the consequences. That's why even Evil Elves are tolerated in their society. What the Dark Elves did - turning from the Seldarine completely - went against Elven culture, not alignment. I don't always agree with him, but he have a point - albeit the elves of FR are very goody goody, and I don't think evil elves are that tolerated much.
GothicDan 07-01-07, 01:44 PM	They are. Read the novels and sourcebooks. Only when they actually majorly disrupt the Elven status quo or go against cultural standards are they expelled. Cormanthyr has quite a number of evil Elven NPCs in its society (see the download).
Dr_Tough 07-01-07, 02:11 PM	I don't always agree with him, but he have a point - albeit the elves of FR are very goody goody, and I don't think evil elves are that tolerated much. Practically every other elf in Elminster in Myth Drannor was evil. You'd think it was the Zhentil Keep of elves with all the evil mages.
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 02:16 PM	I never tire of stuck-up Elves... in fact, I had two for lunch. :D by-the-by, this is one of the few times I would agree with Dan about Elves 100%, I just need to embolden the important part - Only when they actually majorly disrupt the Elven status quo or go against cultural standards are they expelled. Cormanthyr has quite a number of evil Elven NPCs in its society (see the download).Elves do not care one iota when other Elves are being mean to other races. Even the good ones just turn their backs. :nonono:
Derren S. 07-01-07, 02:35 PM	Elves do not care one iota when other Elves are being mean to other races. Even the good ones just turn their backs. :nonono: That sounds reather similiar to the kobold society. Are you sure that elves are normally good?
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 03:00 PM	You must understand, Elves are good according to THEIR world veiw. When they toss around Tidal Waves, or shatter a continent, they don't confer with other races; they just do what's best for Elves. They have a 'chosen people' attitude. Even the 'good' ones that get along with 'lesser' races are condescending... without meaning to be. The Elves do not mean to be bigots, but they can't help it do to the culture they were razed in. When I was a child, my father used to use several deregatory terms when refering to Afro-Americans. He DID NOT use the 'N' word, but used a rather 'colorful' variety of others. My father, BTW, was not at all predujice - in fact, he dated a black girl in the late 40's, something unheard of! He even had two roomates back then that were black. He used these words all his life, and so did everyone else in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s; no one thought anything of it, even in 'polite' society (suburbia). Then the Television series All in the Family came around in the seventies, and it became my father's favorite show. The main character was portrayed as a crotchity old bigot. This had a strange effect on my dad - after awhile he STOPPED used deregatory terms, all because he SAW how ignorant it made him look. Probably one of the all-time BEST programs, because it taught all of America what they sounded like to outsiders. Elves are like my Dad was - they don't think there is anything wrong with patronizing 'lesser folk', because that is just the way it has always been. In that regard, you can't really blame them - when they arrived we were little more then animals. The new generation, the ones that have come along since the Retreat, are learning that Humans, Dwarves, etc... should be treated as equals. I never read any of the Cormanther novels, but it sounds like it revolved around that conflict between established values and the 'New world' of cultural exchange. Myth Drannor was ahead of its time, and paid the price. Most of the 'elitist' Elves now live on Evermeet, for fear of 'contamination'. The ones you find on the mailand today are mostly okay, and have learned to except other races as equals. A hard pill to swallow, for such a long-lived and traditionalist people.
Zsych 07-01-07, 03:32 PM	I think most main-land elves live seperately from the other races, so at the least, they shouldn't be too welcoming(unless thats how they treat all guests) Myth Drannor... although I don't know everything about its fall... might just've had bad luck. I think their mythal malfunctioned or something, rather than it being a case of a flaw in the society. The society itself was thriving with the combined talents of the various races(or so I recall), and it probably held out a lot longer than it would have otherwise thanks to the humans and dwarves(though without the rangers, there wouldn't have been trouble with Halaster)... still the elves probably blame the humans and dwarves for Myth Drannor's destruction(was that way in an Elminster novel anyway)
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 03:57 PM	From what I've read, including many of the wonderful articles on the Elven Netbook thread (shameless plug ;) ), their were many nobles houses working against the more excepting leader, going so far as to murder their own! If the Mythal was defective, it was probably a bad-seed Elven High Mage that set the wheels in motion (having the number of non-Elves within the Mythal act as a corrupting force, degrading it over time). There were many reasons that brought Myth Drannor low, but it was their inability to stand together that destroyed them in the end. :(
Derren S. 07-01-07, 04:06 PM	You must understand, Elves are good according to THEIR world veiw. When they toss around Tidal Waves, or shatter a continent, they don't confer with other races; they just do what's best for Elves. The problem is that alignment in D&D does not depend on your own view. It is absolute. What you do is either good, evil or neutral and does not depend on how you personally see the act.
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 04:34 PM	In core, perhaps, but in FR it is more a matter of how your gods perceive the act. Stuck-up gods = stuck-up followers. Certain good gods allow their Paladins to murder for the greater good, others are more of the 'reform the sinners' variety. What one Paladin does as an act of his faith could VERY well be perceived as an evil act by another Paladin. We recently had a discussion about a Paladin executing prisoners in the field. The Paladin was a Cormyrian officer, and the criminals were judged as traitors, so since he was a Paladin of Tyr (Justice) it was okay. If he had been a Paladin of Ilmater, it may have been a different story. So you see, alignment is flavored by the god you worship. In Lolths eyes, killing Elves is a VERY GOOD thing. :devil: Of course, that is an extreme case, but I doubt Drow consider themselves evil. They probably think its their rightful place to rule and make war on others (like Nazi Germany). Alignment is also dependent on race, obviously.
Zsych 07-01-07, 04:43 PM	There, alignment may depend upon whether or not you are willing to back-stab your own people or not(as opposed to lower beings)
Derren S. 07-01-07, 05:36 PM	Of course, that is an extreme case, but I doubt Drow consider themselves evil. They probably think its their rightful place to rule and make war on others (like Nazi Germany). Alignment is also dependent on race, obviously. So does that mean a human (not elven) paladin could not effectivly smite them nor detect them as evil as the drow view themself as good? What when this paladin encounters a evil race, which considers itself to be good, he never heared of before? As what alignment would the paladin detect them? Alignemnt in D&D does not depend on personal interpretation. If it would all the detect spells (and other alignment related abilities) would make no sense. A paladin would be unemployed as nearly no one would see himself as evil and so he has nothing to fight against. And do you really think all the people stated as being evil (including the accepted evil elves) think of themself as "Yes, I am evil and proud of it"? Because with subjective alignment that would be the only way for them to have that evil alignment.
sages 07-01-07, 06:06 PM	Elves destroyed the 12 cities of Jhaamdath with a tidal wave, and in the process they killed many Aquatic elves and nearly destroyed a God.
The Ubbergeek 07-01-07, 06:38 PM	Also, a note to be brought; Dwarves also have a stuck up, elitist and condescending attitude to other races. Different way, but a very similar feeling. Sadly, it's always the elves who are blamed.
Derren S. 07-01-07, 06:53 PM	The dwarves simply have to do more PR. But it is hard to beat "altering the continent+killing millions" and additional general high magic genocidic magic so don't feel bad when the elves get more attention than dwarves.
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 07:01 PM	@Sages - They also wiped entire races off the planet with the Sundering, and the Jaamdath thing killed thousands of innocent women and children. And still... Corellon loves them. :rolleyes: @Derren S.- You bring up a good point. There is an old non-setting specific series of modules called Jakandor, where the natives raised their dead to work in the fields and do menial labor. It was part of their culture and if you cast detect evil on the undead it wouldn't detect them, nor the necromancers. There was a second culture that landed on their island (similar to the Norse or Illuskans) who thought that the undead were abominations, and the Detect Evil spell would detect them and the necromancers... but only when cast by them. Thats pretty tricky to DM though, because then the Drow version of 'detect Good' should really mean "detect people who don't think like me". Conversely, 'Detect Evil' should read "detect people who DO think like me". So the spells don't really detect Good and Evil, but rather a certain mindset. Its up to the individual to determine weather he veiws it as good or evil. That raises some problems, though, when confronted with criminals. A common thief who kills someone who suprises them during a robbery would be evil, even by his own standards, but someone who is stealing food to feed their family would 'slip under the radar', as it were. Then we have the Psychopath, who's brain doesn't process society's morays. They can get up everyday and go to work like a normal person, and then one day twist the head off an old lady on the way, and not even bat an eye. By my logic, detect evil should not work on him at all, because there is nothing evil about his actions (to him, and even to a medical professional; he is merely just 'broken'). So the police in Waterdeep looking for 'The Midnight Slasher' would have trouble using the normal spells used in detective work, but if a smart mage cast 'Detect Chaos' instead, then he should be off the chart. Like I always say, I never really cared for alignments in D&D, because there are too many ambiguities as far as what constitutes 'Good & Evil'; thats why I always set my players at (N) to start and then adjusted their Algn. as I see fit. They still chose their own at the beginning, but it was just a 'goal' as far as I was concerned, and I kept track of where I thought they should really be. Usually it was pretty close, if not on the mark. Strangely, alignments work well across the Law and Chaos axis, and there isn't any grey area there. I think when it comes to 'good and evil', it all comes down to intent. The Elves didn't set out to killl hundreds of thousands of people in Jaamdath, they intended to end a threat to their own people. So, by their point of view, their act was one of protection and therefore good.
Zsych 07-01-07, 07:24 PM	In Jhaamdath's case. The spell went out of their control(like with the Sundering or some other cases that I don't remember right now). Elves just can't handle high level magic decently(probably due to them using it so rarely).
Eladrinstar 07-01-07, 07:34 PM	More evidence of Gold elf arrogance. In Evermeet, they state specifically that dark elves (it is important to note this is before they all become drow) are not to be allowed on the new homeland. Anyone who argues otherwise for the sake of Eilistraeens is "drowned by the insistent chorus of Gold elven voices seeking a return to the glories of Faerie." Faerie, like they're old homeland Tintageer. The great civilization destroyed by High Magic similar to which they are about to cast, only this time hundreds of High Magi are about to do the casting. Nothing could possibly go wrong. :rolleyes: @Sages - They also wiped entire races off the planet with the Sundering, and the Jaamdath thing killed thousands of innocent women and children. Emphasis mine. I know it is commonly stated that way, and sometimes I do it, but now that it is pointed out, doesn't it strike you as weird as stating women were killed as if the men weren't innocent? Especially in the realms, where women seem to have had equality for a long time. Why do we say that?
Zsych 07-01-07, 07:38 PM	It seems more tragic to say that, since women are generally not considered combatants(by us) And there could have been sex based segregation in Jhaamdath, its just not mentioned if there was(and likely won't be)
Eladrinstar 07-01-07, 07:44 PM	It seems more tragic to say that, since women are generally not considered combatants(by us) And there could have been sex based segregation in Jhaamdath, its just not mentioned if there was(and likely won't be) Fair. But how exactly does gender help you when a wall of water a hundred feet high is heading towards you? After all, combatant or not, you're dead.
Zsych 07-01-07, 07:55 PM	The point probably being, if you assume women and children innocent, that the elves attacked in an indiscriminate way, not at all caring about who was actually responsible for the harm to their forests(typically only a few leaders making the decisions)
Karsus the Mad 07-01-07, 07:58 PM	Thats pretty tricky to DM though, because then the Drow version of 'detect Good' should really mean "detect people who don't think like me". Conversely, 'Detect Evil' should read "detect people who DO think like me". So the spells don't really detect Good and Evil, but rather a certain mindset. Its up to the individual to determine weather he veiws it as good or evil. That's similar to how I do it. Since I don't use the alignment system, detect evil/good, etc detects what the caster would consider to be evil or good in comparison to his own outlook.
Straploknight 07-01-07, 08:16 PM	My setting puts the humans at a minimum too. The dominant races are Ogres and Goblins. who all bow to the flumph overlords!
421 07-01-07, 08:22 PM	"I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure." I can't help thinking that many elf do share agent smith point of view.
Zsych 07-01-07, 08:25 PM	Thats why Smith was defeated by a human :)
GothicDan 07-01-07, 08:50 PM	In Evermeet, they state specifically that dark elves (it is important to note this is before they all become drow) are not to be allowed on the new homeland. Anyone who argues otherwise for the sake of Eilistraeens is "drowned by the insistent chorus of Gold elven voices seeking a return to the glories of Faerie." Faerie, like they're old homeland Tintageer. The great civilization destroyed by High Magic similar to which they are about to cast, only this time hundreds of High Magi are about to do the casting. Nothing could possibly go wrong. And I'll also note that he CN Drow-hating god Sheverash was a WOOD ELF in life. Stop trying to pin everything on the Sun Elves, people. Even Elaine - who WROTE Evermeet - denies that Sun Elves are more likely to be "Evil" than Moon Elves. The novel is an abstraction, a story, and the events in it are all purposefully slanted to be pro-Moonflower family. And let's not talk about the Matrix. Atrocious.
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 09:53 PM	More evidence of Gold elf arrogance. In Evermeet, they state specifically that dark elves (it is important to note this is before they all become drow) are not to be allowed on the new homeland. Anyone who argues otherwise for the sake of Eilistraeens is "drowned by the insistent chorus of Gold elven voices seeking a return to the glories of Faerie." So, obviously they hated the 'darkies' right from the beginning. :rolleyes: Emphasis mine. I know it is commonly stated that way, and sometimes I do it, but now that it is pointed out, doesn't it strike you as weird as stating women were killed as if the men weren't innocent? Especially in the realms, where women seem to have had equality for a long time. Why do we say that?They were killed because of the deforestation - women do not make very good lumberjacks. And besides, the Jaamdathan strength was their psionic abilities. Where do you figure buying shoes = mental power. ;) :dancin:
Zsych 07-01-07, 10:42 PM	@GD: I rather recall Elaine saying that not everyone followed the stereotype, not that the stereotype was completely invalid(obviously some elves do manage to grow up)
GothicDan 07-01-07, 10:51 PM	What stereotype? She's expressed numerous times at Candlekeep that she's tired of the "Sun Elves are evil" tripe, and that the only reason she chose a Moon Elf line for the rulers of Evermeet is because they weren't as isolationist. Note, of course, that I never said that Gold Elves weren't elitist, isolationist, prideful bastards. That's why I love them. They're just not often "Evil" (in terms of alignment); not only has Elaine said this, but I've also crunched the statistical data from the printed NPCs. Everyone forgets Durothil's sacrifice and his founding of the Windriders, Vhoori's greatness, Eltargrim's (and the previous Gold Elven Irythyl Coronals that came before him) achievements, Askhahala, and the like. They just remember the Nimesins and Dlardrageths. They forget the Craulnobers. The fact that the Sundering was done by ALL Elven subraces, as was the Descent. They ignore the fact that Iythiir made attacks against multiple Elven nations before the Crown Wars ever started (that's all the knowledge we have; THEY attacked; that is all). They ignore the fact that, before the Sundering, Sharlarion had NO evidence of evil, corruption, or infernal encounters, that it wasn't until a SINGLE family attained power that they gained any sort of hellish patronage, whereas the Dark Elves were already worshipping Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun before Sharlarion/Aryvandaar was even a nation. But, you know what? This isn't going to make any difference to those who so blindly support the Dark Elves. I'm not sure why I'm wasting my time typing it.
Zsych 07-01-07, 10:54 PM	The Sun elves are isolationist because they think they and their way of life are far superior to that of others.
GothicDan 07-01-07, 11:06 PM	Where did I deny that? I don't think it's a bad thing at all. Having strong convictions about your beliefs, and being zealous about them, does NOT make you evil in the D&D ruleset, people, no matter what hippies the hippies may tell you. That's almost the definition of elitism, in fact - and it's something that I wish was more prevalent in modern culture. You can oppose me all you want, but you better have the guts and firepower to back up your opinion and PROVE to me that it's better than mine. I'm not going to accept it just because. I guess it's the Nietzsche in me.
The Ubbergeek 07-01-07, 11:29 PM	Where did I deny that? I don't think it's a bad thing at all. Having strong convictions about your beliefs, and being zealous about them, does NOT make you evil in the D&D ruleset, people, no matter what hippies the hippies may tell you. That's almost the definition of elitism, in fact - and it's something that I wish was more prevalent in modern culture. You can oppose me all you want, but you better have the guts and firepower to back up your opinion and PROVE to me that it's better than mine. I'm not going to accept it just because. I guess it's the Nietzsche in me. And so, it' sone of the many reason why I think it's utherly wrong. A point why the Shura is so utherly wrong in the FONS universe - there is no truth and all, only strenght. Strenght do not make one right, elitist man. or more, the strenght of the biceps. I will take a Toki (the 'dead moral' of the past according to your dear Nietzche) over the ubermensch Raoh. Beside, it,s Ken who won at the end. Yeah, yeah, anime fan here. It is fitting here, though. The tragedy of modern world - might make right, and some rulers are still acting like thugs because they think that they are right.
GothicDan 07-01-07, 11:43 PM	I never said that might makes 'right.' Might merely makes. I don't believe in morality, personally, so it would be utterly idiotic of me to pretend like Nietzsche's philosophy is 'right.' It simply is correct (not ethically speaking). And there's nothing 'modern' about it. Animals have been exerting strength over other animals since they came into existence. And where do you get the impression that when I say strength, I was referring only to violent or physical strength? Nietzsche never believed that, and neither did I. If I was that sort of person, I'd be very Pro-Sports, pro-Athletics, pro-Sparta. I'm the scientist who makes fun of the Spartans and thinks that Athens was the stronger culture.
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 01:28 AM	Everyone forgets Durothil's sacrifice and his founding of the Windriders, Vhoori's greatness, Eltargrim's (and the previous Gold Elven Irythyl Coronals that came before him) achievements, Askhahala, and the like. They just remember the Nimesins and Dlardrageths. -Very true. The fact that the Sundering was done by ALL Elven subraces, as was the Descent. -Except the Dark Elves, of course. Though, we don't know exactly who was "at" the Descent. Might be an interesting plothook, or whatever they are called, if a group of Eilistraeean Dark Elven High Magi participated in the spell, to curse themselves and their fellow Dark Elves for what had happened. They ignore the fact that, before the Sundering, Sharlarion had NO evidence of evil, corruption, or infernal encounters... -Well, there was Durothil, who fell victim to the corrupting influence of Ghaunadaur, but in the end, he did repent. And, that did predate Sharlarion, anyway. The Sun elves are isolationist because they think they and their way of life are far superior to that of others. -Well, it kind of is. The affluent do try to stay away from the riff-raff, and I don't blame them. I know that if I were rich, I'd move to a middle-to-upper class neighborhood, rather than, say, move to the projects.
GothicDan 07-02-07, 01:49 AM	-Well, there was Durothil, who fell victim to the corrupting influence of Ghaunadaur, but in the end, he did repent. And, that did predate Sharlarion, anyway. Yeah. I think giving up your OWN life to a demon lord to save your people counts a doing a good thing, even if things started out fuzzy. And it is made clear in the novel that he didn't know that Ghaunadaur was even really demonic - The Master of the Mountain had to tell him of the sort of 'price' that he demanded.
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 01:53 AM	-Ghaunadaur isn't a demon, it is a full fledged deity. At the time, it was a lot more powerful than it is today, since it hadn't wiped the minds of it's ooze worshippers yet. But, either way, that doesn't really make much of a difference. It was still a malicious, evil entity. -Who said, I'm paraphrasing, do the right thing for the right reason? Kant? I really don't remember. I think that was Kant...Sounds Kantian.
GothicDan 07-02-07, 01:57 AM	I've always thought Ghaunadaur to be Abyssal in origin, but technically, you're right. But that also doesn't change my point, really - that Durothil was unaware of the depths of his true nature. There's no evidence of him actually doing anything to turn away from the Seldarine... He just needed to find a quicker route to power to affect the wyrm. Ghaunadaur offered it, and he was able to save his people. Since Durothil was by far their most powerful Mage, and even his magic was paltry against the Red's, I really think they would have been lost without the deal. Then again, that could be my interpretation of Elaine's superb writing talking, too. ;)
boards 07-02-07, 02:03 AM	Yeah, wood/wild elves are just as xenophobic as gold elves, it is simply that gold elves have the capability through high magic to do something about it. The less magically advanced elves have less options. Moon elves are somewhat more likely to be tolerant of other races which is why one of their race was chosen as King of Evermeet.
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 02:04 AM	I've always thought Ghaunadaur to be Abyssal in origin, but technically, you're right. But that also doesn't change my point, really - that Durothil was unaware of the depths of his true nature. There's no evidence of him actually doing anything to turn away from the Seldarine... He just needed to find a quicker route to power to affect the wyrm. Ghaunadaur offered it, and he was able to save his people. Since Durothil was by far their most powerful Mage, and even his magic was paltry against the Red's, I really think they would have been lost without the deal. Then again, that could be my interpretation of Elaine's superb writing talking, too. ;) -I never said I disagreed with you. ;) -Ghaunadaur could possibly have some ties to the Abyss, since it did subsume Jubilex's persona in the Realms.
GothicDan 07-02-07, 02:41 AM	I love agreeing with LK. The Sun Elven Collective grows in strength. This is why we are the best Elven High Magi. ;) I still think the Circlesingers need to be written up. Circles of geometrically spaced Gold Elves using Circle Magic, chanting in Seldruin with glowing eyes, hands linked, blasting apart demons and Drow with bolts of golden fire just brings a tear to my eye. Circlesingers using High Magic.. Ohgod, I love you Corellon.
Eladrinstar 07-02-07, 02:54 AM	I admit the moon elves do have their faults. Like the sadist practice that is moonblade inheritance. Okay, why not just have the swords fail, instead of blowing up the inheritor?
GothicDan 07-02-07, 03:02 AM	Because the Elves probably didn't design every aspect of them down to a T. It's not uncommon in myths for artifacts to be harmful to wielders. The Moonblades, particularly the old ones, most likely simply have too much power running through them for some to properly wield (not necessarily powerful in terms of levels, either). The Elves as presented by Elaine (including the Moonblades) are very Arthurian in inspiration, on purpose. But, sure, the Moon Elves are more tolerant, but on that other hand, that same tolerance makes their own inherent culture less tightly bound. Sun Elves are more likely to help each other JUST for being Sun Elves, and are zealously devoted to BEING Elves. That massive unity is what powers Elven High Magic - unity among Elves. In my opinion, it's one of the many reasons why Sun Elves tend to be the most numerous and powerful Elven High Magi. Zealous, isolationist internal unity.
Eladrinstar 07-02-07, 03:18 AM	Right. Sun elves are just the most arrogant. Not that others don't have problems, I single out the Gold elves because you simply cannot deny their noble families have serious issues. The dark elves noble families have even worse issues, but issues are more noticable in a person who is actually good at heart. You can't deny elven arrogance, but it is the gold elven arrogance that seems to often have the most serious consequences, so they need to work on that. Modern gold elves seem to be slowly realizing humans are the future, and seem to be less elitist. Slowly of course, as in a step every few decades, but they are getting there.
MarkusTay63 07-02-07, 05:01 AM	Elves blowing up is the only part about those blades I like. :D I would have to agree with all of you though, they're really aren't ANY good Elves, just different levels of evil. ;) After all, on Earth dragons would be considered an endangered species, yet those so-called tree-hugging Elves would just love to move them to the 'extinct' list. Personally, I felt really bad for the dragon and hated the evil Elf for tricking him that way. Nice of him to feed Moander, though.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 08:22 AM	Ok, to make things clear. Most of the crap that had happened as a result of the sun elves "atrocities" were due to an excessive overload of high magic and an inability to control their own power. Also, it would be natural for the Sun Elves to be more arrogant than other species as they are the "original" elven race from Faerie and all the other elves evolved from them after the arrival on Toril. They woudn't have as much of an attachment to their adopted world as the other species and inside, would imagine a nuch better world inhabited by only elves. Also, the Sun Elves have a lot more high mages than any other elven race, so I suppose more of the mages that commited the Dark Disaster and other cataclysm were sun elves by default. What elves had done, every other race had also done, abiet on a smaller scale so it did not cause as much destruction. Also, many of the other races are to be blamed for effectively ruining the elven civilizations and wreacking their ideal world. The elves and their views were literally ignored for millenia and they were left to sit there seething as they faded from existence. Don't forget when they tried to resist, they were often slaughtered such as in Jhaamandath, and only struck back twice as hard due to once again an inability to control their magic. If there is one race that has wrecked Faerun more than any other, it is humans. Yet nobody is complaining about them are they? In a way, what is happening to the elves right now is similar to what is happening between pop culture and traditional way of life in the Real world. Its bascially Mcworld vs olive trees, with the elves trying to hold on to the old ways of life while trying to stop the rapid explansion of the human monopoly on Faerun and culture. Plus, with many elves being integrated into this new culture, the elves feel desperate and often strike back with violence.
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 10:16 AM	If there is one race that has wrecked Faerun more than any other, it is humans. Yet nobody is complaining about them are they? -Did you know that in the last two hundred years, the temperature on Abeir-Toril has risen exactly three degrees, and the Great Ice is slowly melting? I love agreeing with LK. -I do too! :D I still think the Circlesingers need to be written up. -I do too, but, I don't want to touch that one, fearing I might offend the order. As it comes to making/updating kits to PrCs, I'm not worthy. Okay, why not just have the swords fail, instead of blowing up the inheritor? -With great power comes great responsibility. If you are haughty enough to believe that you can claim the ultimate prize, especially for the wrong reasons (power, pride, and so on) you should be prepared to face your ultimate fate.
GothicDan 07-02-07, 12:42 PM	Another thing to note: not just the Moon Elves created the Moonblades. It was another case of a concertive Elven High Magic Ritual being cast. I really hope that Gold Elven elitism doesn't fade away. Saying that "humans are the future" is like implying there's some sort of fate behind it - and Ed has said there's truly no such thing as fate or destiny in Faerun. The Gold Elves simply need to figure out how to expand in number and power again.
Boda 07-02-07, 01:28 PM	I really hope that Gold Elven elitism doesn't fade away. The Gold Elves simply need to figure out how to expand in number and power again. Me too. It's always handy to have a example of this kind nearby. Makes humans look better in the picture.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 01:30 PM	Another thing to note: not just the Moon Elves created the Moonblades. It was another case of a concertive Elven High Magic Ritual being cast. I really hope that Gold Elven elitism doesn't fade away. Saying that "humans are the future" is like implying there's some sort of fate behind it - and Ed has said there's truly no such thing as fate or destiny in Faerun. The Gold Elves simply need to figure out how to expand in number and power again. Personally, I think the Gold Elves should not and cannot increase in numbers again. Elves in my mind, are always meant to remain in few numbers. They as a race are smarter, more powerful, wiser, longer-lived, and magically-giften than most mortal races. Plus consitering the amount of magic they wield, their arrogance, and their inability to control themselves, they could really make a mess out of the world if they were as numerous as humans. The elves were once the dominant race in the world, and look what happened. The elves are slow to change as well, and hard to admit their flaws, so I doubt they will change much if there is a second time around. They should just stay in the shadows and act as guardians for the younger races, like in LoTR.
Boda 07-02-07, 01:31 PM	I don't think it's a bad thing at all. Having strong convictions about your beliefs, and being zealous about them, does NOT make you evil in the D&D ruleset, people, no matter what hippies the hippies may tell you. That's almost the definition of elitism, in fact - and it's something that I wish was more prevalent in modern culture. You can oppose me all you want, but you better have the guts and firepower to back up your opinion and PROVE to me that it's better than mine. I'm not going to accept it just because. I guess it's the Nietzsche in me. So, we could apply this reasoning to Orcs, Phaerimm, Beholders, Dragons, Sarrukh, Shades, etc, right?
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 01:57 PM	They should just stay in the shadows and act as guardians for the younger races, like in LoTR. -The Realms aren't Middle-Earth, though.
Eladrinstar 07-02-07, 02:12 PM	"Humans are the future" doesn't mean they have any destiny. It simply means its obvious that humans will be the dominant race for a long time. It is like the elves have been waiting for the humans to sink back down to small numbers, but that doesn't look to happen for a while.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 02:18 PM	-The Realms aren't Middle-Earth, though. True, but the strong should always remain few in number and protect the weaker, younger races, and help them achieve their destiny. Lst the world falls into chaos. That is most likely what happened in the elves old world and almost happened as a result of the Crown Wars. I love the elves and all, but even their arrogance should have an end when it comes to such dangerous power.
Zémobiel 07-02-07, 02:20 PM	When are writers going to start writing about elves the way they are portrayed in books like Races of the Wild? Maybe one of the reason autor dont do this is cause Races of the Wilds go against everything thatwas writed on elves before it... This book is a big pule of crap... Saying that elf have mature body at 25 but dont want to travel and go in adventure until 125 is pure idiocy
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 02:25 PM	Saying that elf have mature body at 25 but dont want to travel and go in adventure until 125 is pure idiocy -Indeed, it is. Man, I am happy I don't have that book now...:nonono:
MarkusTay63 07-02-07, 02:51 PM	Humans are the future. A lot of the way the multiverse works in D&D, and to a lesser extent in FR, is based on Michael Moorcock's works. In all of them, the 'old races' are dwindling, and the time of humans has come. It is the premise behind the older parts of LotR (Silmarillion), Dragonalance, and just about every other Fantasy story, including traditional folklore. It is based on our RW perception that many of these creatures actually existed at one time, but man has risen to prominence and the other races are rarely, if ever, seen anymore. Personally, I like that concept. FR might be able to hold off the inevitable a few thousand more years, but humans are like cockroaches. Its pretty much the only concept I liked about RoD - Humans are destined to rule. We even see this concept in SciFi, with things like Star Trek and Star Wars, where humans pretty much run everything. -Did you know that in the last two hundred years, the temperature on Abeir-Toril has risen exactly three degrees, and the Great Ice is slowly meltingThe world is still slowly recovering from the devastation wrought by the sundering, and the "Seven years of Winter". It created a 'little Iceage', covering most of the North with a polar Icecap. There is TONS of evidence in source that the Ice used to be MUCH further north, and I get the feeling that there was very little in the way of glaciers around when the Elves came. The world was MUCH hotter then, and allowed races like the Sarrukh to dominate. Have you ever taken a close look at some of the ancient Serpent Kingdoms? Only one is located in a Jungle region, which is the Yuan-ti environment of choice. Why would cold-blooded creatures build civilizations in regions that would be hard for them to survive in? Simple - those regions were tropical at one point. Around -35.000 DR, I picture Toril looking more like a jungle/swamp world. Eventually the world will go completely back to the way it was, and then all of those Island nations and coastal areas will just disappear (or, the Underdark will completely flood, which should happen anyway - it really doesn't make a lot of sense). I really hope that Gold Elven elitism doesn't fade away. Saying that "humans are the future" is like implying there's some sort of fate behind it - and Ed has said there's truly no such thing as fate or destiny in Faerun. The Gold Elves simply need to figure out how to expand in number and power again.Accent mine - yes there is; she's alive and well and living in Zakhara right now. ;) The concepts of 'Fate' and 'Destiny' exist in Zakhara, Kara-Tur, and the Malatra (three seperate pantheons). It seems those gods never made it over from the Greek Pantheon with Tyche and Sune (Aphrodite), so the Faerūnian Pantheon is suspiciously absent of those portfolios.
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 03:00 PM	The world is still slowly recovering from the devastation wrought by the sundering, and the "Seven years of Winter". It created a 'little Iceage', covering most of the North with a polar Icecap. There is TONS of evidence in source that the Ice used to be MUCH further north, and I get the feeling that there was very little in the way of glaciers around when the Elves came. The world was MUCH hotter then, and allowed races like the Sarrukh to dominate. Have you ever taken a close look at some of the ancient Serpent Kingdoms? Only one is located in a Jungle region, which is the Yuan-ti environment of choice. Why would cold-blooded creatures build civilizations in regions that would be hard for them to survive in? Simple - those regions were tropical at one point. Around -35.000 DR, I picture Toril looking more like a jungle/swamp world. Eventually the world will go completely back to the way it was, and then all of those Island nations and coastal areas will just disappear (or, the Underdark will completely flood, which should happen anyway - it really doesn't make a lot of sense). -Just so you know, I was being sarcastic. ;)
GothicDan 07-02-07, 03:03 PM	Boda: The same thing could be said for the other races, yes. What's your point? Heretic: One of the thing that makes the Elves of Faerun (the Sun Elves in particular) separate from those of LotR is their ambition and drive. It's one of my favorite characteristics about them. Markus: As I said, in Faerun. ;) I go with what Ed says regarding Fate. That being said... Now I work more on my Aryvandaar story/novel, and on my Pre-Vyshaanti Aryvandaar/Sharlarion write up (currently 50+ pages), while studying E&M Fields.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 03:13 PM	Heretic: One of the thing that makes the Elves of Faerun (the Sun Elves in particular) separate from those of LotR is their ambition and drive. It's one of my favorite characteristics about them. sigh, such an irresponsible use of power. I guess that is what makes the Sun Elves unique. "Hey, if we try hard to rule the world and it gets blown up in a magical explosion, we don't care since we didn't get to rule it anyway." I don't know whether to admire them or faint in horror. I can see why you admire them, I see some striking similarities to certain nuclear phycists (coughOppenheimercough). In the end though, they must fail...
Zsych 07-02-07, 03:52 PM	I don't really find FR elves all that ambitious at all. They generally tend to stick to what they have been. As for the Sundering and such. Accidents happen, and the elves had a right to try and protect their own future.
Derren S. 07-02-07, 04:47 PM	As for the Sundering and such. Accidents happen, and the elves had a right to try and protect their own future. The same right the netherese had to protect their future, but they get screwed up for a much smaller mistake while the elves keep their destructive magic they are happy to use.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 05:02 PM	The same right the netherese had to protect their future, but they get screwed up for a much smaller mistake while the elves keep their destructive magic they are happy to use. The Nethernese tore up the weave itself, what happened to them was not an intentional punishment but backlash from Mystryl's desperate attempt to save it.
Derren S. 07-02-07, 05:06 PM	The Nethernese tore up the weave itself, what happened to them was not an intentional punishment but backlash from Mystryl's desperate attempt to save it. I was speaking of the ban. Mystra could have simply disallowed the Avatar spell, but instead she banned all 10th level+ magic the source of Netherils power. While the elves are still allowed to happily throw around high magic spells even after the Sundering (which also wasn't very Weave and Toril friendly). What I want to say with this is that elves get much leeway in the FR lore. If any other race would have done similliar things than the elves did, they would be clearly labled as evil and/or would have been punished by the gods.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 05:30 PM	I was speaking of the ban. Mystra could have simply disallowed the Avatar spell, but instead she banned all 10th level+ magic the source of Netherils power. While the elves are still allowed to happily throw around high magic spells even after the Sundering (which also wasn't very Weave and Toril friendly). What I want to say with this is that elves get much leeway in the FR lore. If any other race would have done similliar things than the elves did, they would be clearly labled as evil and/or would have been punished by the gods. For one, Mystra isn't in control of the elves' High Magic, Corellon is. Plus, what Netheril???? It dosen't really matter that she banned all 10+ spells since the Nethernese were mostly dead and those that wern't were dangerous and powerful liches or helpless civilians. As for the elves and High Magic, back during the crown wars Mystryl was CN and not too fond of setting up rules and all that. Plus as far as I know, Corellon has higher authority over High Magic than even Mystryl/Mystra, and apparently he thought the elves had been punished enough. The elves that needed to be punished were, the Nethernese (most of them died anyway) that needed to be punished were. Nuff said.
Drew1369r 07-02-07, 06:03 PM	For one, Mystra isn't in control of the elves' High Magic, Corellon is. Uuhhhh yeah she is... if its magic on Toril she is in control.
MarkusTay63 07-02-07, 06:11 PM	This is a grey area. Although it is specifically stated in canon sources that she is the goddess of ALL magic in Realmspace, it has since been reiterated that she has NO control over the Hishna and Pluma magic of Maztica. I think she is the goddes of the Weave of all of Realmspace, but only the goddess of magic in the FR/Old Empires pantheon regions. That would make the most sense, IMHO. There are other forms of magic, like the Shadow weave, that she has no control over, so that just backs up my theory that she is duel-aspected.
Zsych 07-02-07, 06:22 PM	High Magic is Weave dependent magic, so Mystra has control over it. On any other world Corellon might have control over it(although I don't actually think that he has control over High Magic, the way Mystra has control over magic on Toril). Elven High Magic is a casting style, a method to get more power and weave more complex spells. Anyone could conceivably learn it. (although with the elven training style, a human in their society would never get the chance, and if he did get it, would likely die before the training was complete :)) --- As for the Netherese. 3 enclaves remained. Plenty of wizards remained, and the whole basis of Netheril's progress was that their cities could fly so that they could go to where they needed to be, and they could be outside the reach of attackers like Orcs and such(or any other kingdom). Without 10th level magic, mythallar could no longer be made, and thus Netheril, along with the opportunity it gave the human race, could not exist. ... I'm just surprised that the people/wizards left behind didn't just pack up and head for another world.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 06:50 PM	Hmm, this is very gray. I think such a decision will involve negotiation between Mystra and Corellon since Corellon is the patron of elven high magic and elven magic in whole. Mystra dosen't dare move on his right to those portfolios without his permission. By the way Drew, Mystra most likely dosen't even exist in places like Osse so I woudn't say on Toril. Hmm, now that I think about it, does the weave even exist in these other places? since Mystra technically is THE goddess of the weave.
Boda 07-02-07, 07:47 PM	Boda: The same thing could be said for the other races, yes. What's your point? If gold elfs arent evil because they're just doing what they think it's best, so why are so many other evil? They are also doing what they think it's best. Golds think they are better. So do dragons, beholder,etc. But these are evil and gold elfs are not?! Why?
Coldoneknight 07-02-07, 07:51 PM	Ok first off everyone is complaining about the ban of tenth level spells i think its fair that the elves keep high magic because high magic requires the efforts of a a group of high mages and sometimes the community just to cast and in most cases the circle leader dies that is a pretty steep price where as 10th lvl spells like the avatar spell could be developed and cast by a single caster without death. And secondly the elves do have the right to be arrogent because the one time they tired to give humans, dwarfs, and an red dragon a chance their magic failed them. I think this is because as written in older lore and recently dug up in novels elves share a bond with each other from birth and its that bond that i believe where the true power of high magic lies. Oh and just a reminder Myth Dranyor is back. If i got any of this wrong please correct me as im only working with the earlier materials i could find online and at book resale stores and have only played in 3e but trying to understand the background and history of the setting.
Zsych 07-02-07, 08:14 PM	If you're gonna cast magic with circles, a telepathy spell should be enough to surpass the benefits of elven communion. Anyway, as regards high magic. If your community has grown up to knowingly or unknowingly have evil intentions, the use of the magic isn't really safe, and plenty of dangerous stuff is still possible. And as regards evil people. As I've said before, perhaps good and evil has to do with how you deal with the people around you. An elf might consider a human to just be some type of animal, but in a society of elves, the guy might actually be quite nice to everyone around him. --- Anyway, where Mystra and High Magic are concerned. I doubt that Corellon can overpower her in her own domain, Mystra's knowledge of magic is probably more vast(taking in all the kinds of bizarre magic that exist in Toril, as opposed to a small subset).. and on Toril, with her mastery over spells, Mystra would have more knowledge of high elven magic than even Correlon. ... Outside of Toril though, Mystra would probably be a weakling diety not able to at all effect how Correlon deals with his elves there. ------- Mystra should send powerful wizards of her own teaching, to other realms, where some gods would send clerics.. to increase her power elsewhere. With knowledge of every spell and magical training technique ever created(along with knowledge of spells for knowledge transference), she could be spawning a hundred archmages a day if she wanted to, and hiring the service of countless others across the planes :P
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 08:45 PM	I was speaking of the ban. Mystra could have simply disallowed the Avatar spell, but instead she banned all 10th level+ magic the source of Netherils power. While the elves are still allowed to happily throw around high magic spells even after the Sundering (which also wasn't very Weave and Toril friendly). What I want to say with this is that elves get much leeway in the FR lore. If any other race would have done similliar things than the elves did, they would be clearly labled as evil and/or would have been punished by the gods. -Netheril wasn't the only one "punished". Everyone was "punished". Elves could no longer cast 10+ Level magic. Dwarves could no longer cast 10+ Level Magic. Gnomes, Halflings, Ogre Mages, and so on- no one could cast 10+ Level magic after the casting of Karsus' Avatar. This isn't a case where one kid acted out and was punished. One kid acted out, and everyone was punished, in this scenario. Uuhhhh yeah she is... if its magic on Toril she is in control. -High Magic is moderated by Corellon Larethian and Mystra. But, by virtue, since High Magic exists out of Realmspace, Elves are dependent on Corellon Larethian for it, and not Mystra. In Realmspace, it seems to me that Corellon Larethian acts like a gentleman, allowing Mystra to get the nod before he grants the magic to his Elves. By the way Drew, Mystra most likely dosen't even exist in places like Osse so I woudn't say on Toril. Hmm, now that I think about it, does the weave even exist in these other places? since Mystra technically is THE goddess of the weave. -The Weave is supposedly an all-encompassing thing. As such, it exists in Osse. But, if magic does exist on Osse- and I am assuming it does- Mystra is probably known as something other than Mystra. If gold elfs arent evil because they're just doing what they think it's best, so why are so many other evil? They are also doing what they think it's best. Golds think they are better. So do dragons, beholder,etc. But these are evil and gold elfs are not?! Why? -Elves are inherently chaotic good creatures. In other words, they are both with strong inclinations to be chaotic and good. Creatures like Beholders, Illithid, Demons and Chromatic Dragons are just the opposite. It is in their nature to be evil. They are born to evil, literally.
Zsych 07-02-07, 09:29 PM	Corellon can grant magic to his elves all he wants, but like with clerics, if Mystra wants to stop it, there's nothing Corellon can do about it. High magic, is ultimately just epic magic(of the Weave). The elves were just lucky that when they came to Toril they found a world where the magic was similar to what they knew. --- And in 2E, humans were punished more than the other races. Although it didn't exactly hurt the other races much to lose 10+ magic, since their lives didn't depend on it anyway.
KarsusAspectOfZsych 07-02-07, 10:40 PM	I must say old chaps, that everything Zsych here says, makes complete sense.
Drew1369r 07-02-07, 11:15 PM	This is a grey area. Although it is specifically stated in canon sources that she is the goddess of ALL magic in Realmspace, it has since been reiterated that she has NO control over the Hishna and Pluma magic of Maztica. I think she is the goddes of the Weave of all of Realmspace, but only the goddess of magic in the FR/Old Empires pantheon regions. That would make the most sense, IMHO. There are other forms of magic, like the Shadow weave, that she has no control over, so that just backs up my theory that she is duel-aspected. I should have thrown shadow weave exempt... what sources is the pluma magic and hisna(never read anything that she couldn't touch those) I mean that any magic that uses the weave she has control of. Thats her ability... weave dependent she can shut it off.
Drew1369r 07-02-07, 11:17 PM	--But, by virtue, since High Magic exists out of Realmspace, Elves are dependent on Corellon Larethian for it, and not Mystra. Where is this stated that Mystra can't cut off high magic, or outside of realms space?
Zsych 07-02-07, 11:59 PM	Outside of Toril and Realmspace, where people aren't dependent on the Weave for magic that functions normally, she has no control. Inside that area, regular magic(and its extensions like High Magic) are her property, lent out to others at her whim :)
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 12:04 AM	Where is this stated that Mystra can't cut off high magic, or outside of realms space? -Mystra is the Weave. The Weave does not exist anywhere outside Realmspace. Thus, Mystra has no power over magic that exists outside Realmspace. Corellon can grant magic to his elves all he wants, but like with clerics, if Mystra wants to stop it, there's nothing Corellon can do about it. -High Magic stems from a collaboration between Mystra and Corellon Larethian. Either party theoretically could prevent the casting of it, for whatever reason. But, as Corellon Larethian is a more powerful deity than Mystra, and an ally no less, is she really going to take a chance, and do something to get on his bad side, as much as the jovial Corellon Larethian has a bad side? The elves were just lucky that when they came to Toril they found a world where the magic was similar to what they knew. -We know nothing about the types of magic that were utilized on Faerie, or any other places that immigrant Elves stem from. We know that the survivors of Tintageer used Elven High Magic, so it existed, in some capacity, there.
boards 07-03-07, 12:05 AM	I really hope that Gold Elven elitism doesn't fade away. Saying that "humans are the future" is like implying there's some sort of fate behind it - and Ed has said there's truly no such thing as fate or destiny in Faerun. The Gold Elves simply need to figure out how to expand in number and power again. Heya Dan Does Ed say that there IS no fate, or just that the gods dont BELIEVE in Fate as that would mean that there are other gods who control it? If it is the second, well AO comes to mind.
Zsych 07-03-07, 12:11 AM	Fate is the natural consequence of people's actions(already known by a diety with prescience). And it is fate that an inferior species like the elves will eventually vanish from the face of Faerun :P As for High Magic. I really wonder if Corellon can really control it much at all, and I seriously doubt that Mystra needs any help allowing it to function in her Weave. ... as for whether or not she'll pick a fight.. although I don't really think that Corellon could beat her in her own domain, I think she won't. (Let Corellon attack Mystra, and he'll find that Mystra I was researching 12th level spells of her own, that Midnight has inherited :P)
Drew1369r 07-03-07, 12:26 AM	-Mystra is the Weave. The Weave does not exist anywhere outside Realmspace. Thus, Mystra has no power over magic that exists outside Realmspace. No... sorry, what I ment to ask was where does it say that high magic is outside realmsspace when on the realms? I know they are allies and that she wouldn't but say the elves wanted to try another sundering in FR what would prevent Mystra from stopping it IF she wanted to?
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 12:29 AM	And it is fate that an inferior species like the elves will eventually vanish from the face of Faerun :P -And you are getting this information...where? If you look at the facts, the number of Elves in Faerūn is actually rising. As for High Magic. I really wonder if Corellon can really control it much at all, and I seriously doubt that Mystra needs any help allowing it to function in her Weave. -Corellon Larethian is the source of Elven High Magic. ... as for whether or not she'll pick a fight.. although I don't really think that Corellon could beat her in her own domain, I think she won't. -Neither one of them have any reason to come to blows. I was just stating before that Corellon Larethian is a stronger deity (ie, has a higher DR) than Mystra. (Let Corellon attack Mystra, and he'll find that Mystra I was researching 12th level spells of her own, that Midnight has inherited :P) -Makes you wonder if Mystra's Ban applies to, well, Mystra. ;)
Derren S. 07-03-07, 12:59 AM	High Magic is just a elven name for a magical technique everyone can use. So why would have Correlon and not Mystra controll over this magic when it isn't even elven? -Elves are inherently chaotic good creatures. In other words, they are both with strong inclinations to be chaotic and good. Creatures like Beholders, Illithid, Demons and Chromatic Dragons are just the opposite. It is in their nature to be evil. They are born to evil, literally. From what I know of elven history it doesn't look to like the majority behaves chaotic. And as pointed out in this thread many acts the "higher up" elves did also wasn't very good. If it behaves not good, it probably isn't good. Except for elves they have a lore gurantee to be able to do nearly anything and still stay good at all times. Killing millions while modifing the continent to their liking? Good. Killing whole nations with Floods? Good. Afflicting a race consisting half out of very good hearted beings with a magical afflictions which causes them to rage and to endanger themselves and many of the other races who live around them even though the elves could have protected them? Good. And I am sure that this list can be continued for quite some time.
Aldareth 07-03-07, 01:55 AM	High Magic is just a elven name for a magical technique everyone can use. So why would have Correlon and not Mystra controll over this magic when it isn't even elven?. right Corellon will sure grant a bunch of Orcs the benefits of a magical technique where it is wriiten that HE HAS TO APROVE for the ritual. think about it...twice From what I know of elven history it doesn't look to like the majority behaves chaotic. And as pointed out in this thread many acts the "higher up" elves did also wasn't very good. . so drow are chaotic , but if you look at menzo there is a strict order/hierarchy what does that mean? and sure there should be more books of the majority of commoner elves and there faszinating farmer life ( i am sure they are evil and thinking of a plot to destroy another civilization yet ) If it behaves not good, it probably isn't good. Except for elves they have a lore gurantee to be able to do nearly anything and still stay good at all times. Killing millions while modifing the continent to their liking? Good. so the knew that will happen? no? ohhh... Killing whole nations with Floods? Good. War? die at the hands of the "victims"? Afflicting a race consisting half out of very good hearted beings with a magical afflictions which causes them to rage and to endanger themselves and many of the other races who live around them even though the elves could have protected them? Good face extinction at the hands of the not good half? sure thats ok. at the time of the draco rage mythal the situation was dire, it was a sort of last chance and it is known that at that time the "good" dragons wasnt that good at all And I am sure that this list can be continued for quite some time . sure but please read the books twice , than think about them and read them again twice, your lack of understanding is a pain
Zsych 07-03-07, 02:58 AM	Corellon okaying the rituals would make him responsible for the Sundering and the destruction of Jhaamdath and such. I would think of him more as a master of elven high magic, keeper of its lore, and responsible for granting it to elves in times of need. And ultimately (nowadays) elven high magic draws upon the same power as any epic magic.
Derren S. 07-03-07, 06:34 AM	right Corellon will sure grant a bunch of Orcs the benefits of a magical technique where it is wriiten that HE HAS TO APROVE for the ritual. think about it...twice Correlon does not have to grant anything. Non elves can get the exact same effects with the exact same spell technique with the exact same effort and result. That Correlon needs to approve is more a cultural thing or is because of his elven portfolion but other races can use epic spells which are exact copies of elven high magic spells perfectly fine whithout Correlon so drow are chaotic , but if you look at menzo there is a strict order/hierarchy what does that mean? and sure there should be more books of the majority of commoner elves and there faszinating farmer life ( i am sure they are evil and thinking of a plot to destroy another civilization yet ) Come on. The whole concept of noble houses and queens just screems lawful. Elves are theoretically chaotic beings but the society looks like a neutral/lawful human (neutral race) society. Doesn't that seem strange to you? so the knew that will happen? no? ohhh... Karsus also didn't know what would happen. But "his" magic got banned while elves are free to make mistakes again. War? die at the hands of the "victims"? There are multiple ways to fight a war. Complete destruction of the enemy including the civilians is a more evil way to do it. Keep in mind that because of their usual alignemtn elves should behave more good than humans. face extinction at the hands of the not good half? sure thats ok. at the time of the draco rage mythal the situation was dire, it was a sort of last chance and it is known that at that time the "good" dragons wasnt that good at all Thats a ok explanation why they did it. But why didn't the elves reversed the effect when the dragons were no threat anymore and the only thing the rage accomplished was the destruction of dragons (good and evil alike) and the death of thousands of other beings which are killed by the raging dragons? Or if you believe that the elves did forget that they were responsible for the rage (which some people say is not possible) then they could at least have supplied the good dragons with King Killer shields. But they also didn't do that. Good? sure but please read the books twice , than think about them and read them again twice, your lack of understanding is a pain Your favoritism of elves is also quite uncomfortable. I ask you this. If for exmple the centaurs discovered a new way of magic and used it to create a huge plain (a paradise for them) but because of unforseen consequences the spell destroys the weave in that area and tens of thousands other beings living in the area get killed. Do you think that Mystra will simply sit there and do nothing like she did with elves or remove that sort of magic or t least punish the centaurs in a other way like she did with the Netherese? Generally, take one event, replace the word "elf" with "human" and look at it again. Most of the time you would probably relate the way the humans behaved with Thay, the shades or the Zents but not with Cormyr. Ask yourself, which human nation would use extreme magic to completly erradicate their enemy including many civilians? Thay or Halruua?
sages 07-03-07, 06:36 AM	Mystra okaying the rituals would make her responsible for the Sundering and the destruction of Jhaamdath and such? Did the Gods know that elves would lose control of the spell(The sundering)? What happend in Jhaamdaths case?
Zsych 07-03-07, 07:07 AM	I would think that Mystra has a fair chance of knowing that the Sundering or Jhaamdath spell would malfunction. ... but as long as the Weave or her own security isn't effected, I don't think that Mystra cares much... and Mystryl might generally not have cared even if the Weave was partially damaged(she just continued fixing it as much as possible, and allowing people freedom)
Aldareth 07-03-07, 07:32 AM	Correlon does not have to grant anything. Non elves can get the exact same effects with the exact same spell technique with the exact same effort and result. That Correlon needs to approve is more a cultural thing or is because of his elven portfolion but other races can use epic spells which are exact copies of elven high magic spells perfectly fine whithout Correlon you just can ignore the fluff , others dont, elves cast elven high magic ( epic spells if you like ) in community and ask corellon to grant them the power, corellon grants or grants not , that is the way of the elves like it or not but fluff plays a role in the realms Come on. The whole concept of noble houses and queens just screems lawful. Elves are theoretically chaotic beings but the society looks like a neutral/lawful human (neutral race) society. Doesn't that seem strange to you? believe it or not even chaotic individuals can live in a structured society ( somebody just say drow?). i just have to look at myself a behave pretty much chaotic sometimes nice sometimes not, sometimes helpfull sometimes not but i still live in a lawfull country Karsus also didn't know what would happen. But "his" magic got banned while elves are free to make mistakes again. right but nobody said that karsus was evil, his fault was just too dangerous to risk it happen again There are multiple ways to fight a war. Complete destruction of the enemy including the civilians is a more evil way to do it. Keep in mind that because of their usual alignemtn elves should behave more good than humans. usual, but not always, dont forget that elves are a pretty warlike race and dont make the fault to compare nowadays morales with older ones or realms morales ( mongols slautered whole cities that denied capitulation , where they evil? dont think so it was their way ) Thats a ok explanation why they did it. But why didn't the elves reversed the effect when the dragons were no threat anymore and the only thing the rage accomplished was the destruction of dragons (good and evil alike) and the death of thousands of other beings which are killed by the raging dragons? Or if you believe that the elves did forget that they were responsible for the rage (which some people say is not possible) then they could at least have supplied the good dragons with King Killer shields. But they also didn't do that. Good? it is written that everyone that know of the ritual died in the defense of the mythal , hard to believe but still a written fact , thats enough for me Your favoritism of elves is also quite uncomfortable. I ask you this. If for exmple the centaurs discovered a new way of magic and used it to create a huge plain (a paradise for them) but because of unforseen consequences the spell destroys the weave in that area and tens of thousands other beings living in the area get killed. Do you think that Mystra will simply sit there and do nothing like she did with elves or remove that sort of magic or t least punish the centaurs in a other way like she did with the Netherese? she wouldnt do nothing ,maybe her chosen would try to stop/alter the spell so that the consequences will not occur but mystra herself would act after the spell ist cast and consider consequences. and where did mystra punish the netherese? the arcanists still where casting spells after karsus folly just not that powerfull anymore Generally, take one event, replace the word "elf" with "human" and look at it again. Most of the time you would probably relate the way the humans behaved with Thay, the shades or the Zents but not with Cormyr. Ask yourself, which human nation would use extreme magic to completly erradicate their enemy including many civilians? Thay or Halruua? i take jamdath...( even if they was psionics )
boards 07-03-07, 08:18 AM	The difference between elves and dragons, beholders, illithids etc is that the elves are not actively trying to enslave, kill destroy other races. These races are trying to exert there will over the other races. Elves for the most part simply want to live in their own little world and let the outside pass them by. During the crown wars they seem to have been a little different with a much more war like attitude and well the creation of the high moor was done by the followers of an evil family. This family was utimately sentenced to death and hunted down to be killed. In the destruction of Jhamdath the elves had 3 options 1. leave and let the humans destroy their home, 2. fight a conventional war, die heroically and have their home destroyed, or 3. pool their resources and destroy their attackers In this case they chose option 3 and i cant say as i particularly blame them. In the case of the sundering, the elves simply didnt care what effect the spell would have on the other races. Is this a good act, no probably not, but elves look out for themselve and the rest of the world can go to the abyss. This doesnt mean that Mystryl should ban them however. Mystra didnt ban 10th+ magic because Karsus's spell caused death to lots of people, she did it because that little upstart* human challenged her:bigeyes:. How dare a human think to challenge a god:headexplo. If an elf had cast the same spell Mystra would have done exactly the same thing. * Sorry Karsus:angel:
sages 07-03-07, 08:28 AM	What kind of extreme magic did Jhaamdath use? Elves did not show mercy to those who were against the war( and it was not a small number of people).
sages 07-03-07, 08:40 AM	It would be better that Dracorage mythal still exists.
boards 07-03-07, 08:49 AM	What kind of extreme magic did Jhaamdath use? Elves did not show mercy to those who were against the war( and it was not a small number of people). They didnt, they "hunted them down and slaughted the elves" with supperior numbers for 20 years. The elves simply couldnt cope in a conventional battle, so they had to defend themselves in the only way they could, can you say TSUNAMI:D
Derren S. 07-03-07, 09:31 AM	you just can ignore the fluff , others dont, elves cast elven high magic ( epic spells if you like ) in community and ask corellon to grant them the power, corellon grants or grants not , that is the way of the elves like it or not but fluff plays a role in the realms And you can't dispute that High Magic is nothing special. Anyone can cast spells which do exactly the same thing as high magic as normal epic magic spells with no additional cost and without Correlons approval. believe it or not even chaotic individuals can live in a structured society ( somebody just say drow?). i just have to look at myself a behave pretty much chaotic sometimes nice sometimes not, sometimes helpfull sometimes not but i still live in a lawfull country Using a other elven society as justification in this case is not really convincing. right but nobody said that karsus was evil, his fault was just too dangerous to risk it happen again And a sundering isn't? usual, but not always, dont forget that elves are a pretty warlike race and dont make the fault to compare nowadays morales with older ones or realms morales ( mongols slautered whole cities that denied capitulation , where they evil? dont think so it was their way ) Thats pretty evil to me. But ask youself. Were they good? Because according to their alignment the majority of elves should be good and not neutral like humans. it is written that everyone that know of the ritual died in the defense of the mythal , hard to believe but still a written fact , thats enough for me Its also written that the elves were able to create a spell to protect dragons from the rage during the Crown Wars. So even if the elves at that point did not knew what caused the Rage but were still able to create a defense against it (unlikely imo) why haven't the elves shared this spell with the good dragons are at least created sanctuaries for them? she wouldnt do nothing ,maybe her chosen would try to stop/alter the spell so that the consequences will not occur but mystra herself would act after the spell ist cast and consider consequences. And that consequences would be? and where did mystra punish the netherese? the arcanists still where casting spells after karsus folly just not that powerfull anymore Considering that the power of Netheril depended on 10th level magic yes it is a punishment when you consider that the Elves were still allowed to use their supermagic after making a similiar, but not less devastating, error. i take jamdath...( even if they was psionics ) What alignment was Jamdath? Good? WHen they behave like the elves do then that must be their alignment. Also when someone can create a spell to destroy a whole nation one certainly can also create a spell to "just" destroy the army.
sages 07-03-07, 10:29 AM	Darren S.- Also when someone can create a spell to destroy a whole nation one certainly can also create a spell to "just" destroy the army. I agree with that. Did elves acted in vengeance without regard to the consequences ( it is likely that they destroyed a Aquatic elf city in the process) or did they miscast high magic again?
Aldareth 07-03-07, 10:39 AM	And you can't dispute that High Magic is nothing special. Anyone can cast spells which do exactly the same thing as high magic as normal epic magic spells with no additional cost and without Correlons approval. Using a other elven society as justification in this case is not really convincing. not if no one dispute that drow are usual chaotic evil And a sundering isn't? not for a diety, puny mortals die all the time , so what? Thats pretty evil to me. But ask youself. Were they good? Because according to their alignment the majority of elves should be good and not neutral like humans. they where neutral , as are elves ( chaotic neutral, tending to good dont make them good ) Its also written that the elves were able to create a spell to protect dragons from the rage during the Crown Wars. So even if the elves at that point did not knew what caused the Rage but were still able to create a defense against it (unlikely imo) why haven't the elves shared this spell with the good dragons are at least created sanctuaries for them? because the most expieriencd dragons had a way do protect their selfs from they rage , falling in slumber , and not all dragons where allies to the elves so why care about them? the elves are not a social help organisation And that consequences would be? only mystra knows, maybe none at all , at least why should there be consequences at all? just because some ten thousands beeings died? why should mystra care? magic was advanced by the casting , that is was count for mystra, because if not then thay would be a long time dead country considering all the attrosities they did Considering that the power of Netheril depended on 10th level magic yes it is a punishment when you consider that the Elves were still allowed to use their supermagic after making a similiar, but not less devastating, error. anything that a 10th level spell can do , could be made with epic casting , so where is point? What alignment was Jamdath? Good? WHen they behave like the elves do then that must be their alignment. Also when someone can create a spell to destroy a whole nation one certainly can also create a spell to "just" destroy the army. i think they where in the majority neutral as the elves and now ask your self if jamdath did care of elven noncombatants, i think the words "mercillesly slaughtered " states they didnt, so why should the elves? LEoF page 120: The need for wood to build their ships turned the people of jhaamdath into terrible despoilers of nearby woodlands.Jhaamdathan forces mercillessly slaughtered the elves of nikerymath when the latter fought to defend their forest home.
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 10:50 AM	No... sorry, what I ment to ask was where does it say that high magic is outside realmsspace when on the realms? -As I mentioned above, the survivors of Tintageer transported themselves to Realmspace using Elven High Magic. Thus, it exists in at least one other place asides for Realmspace- Faerie. I don't know what you mean about Elven High Magic being "outside realmspace when on the Realms". What I just wrote a few sentences ago is what I meant. ...what would prevent Mystra from stopping it IF she wanted to? -Divine politics, theoretically. It's not like the Elves are actually going to cast another Sundering, though, you know? Correlon does not have to grant anything. High Magic is just a elven name for a magical technique everyone can use. So why would have Correlon and not Mystra controll over this magic when it isn't even elven? -Once again, you demonstrate a startling lack of knowledge on the subject. Elven High Magic is a collaborative effort between Corellon Larethian and Mystra. Only Elven Selu'Taar have the knowledge of High Magic, and thus, are the only ones who can cast it. In order for their magics to be granted to them, both Mystra and Corellon Larethian have to approve of the casting. In other words, Corellon Larethian gives the nod, Mystra gives the nod, and the spell is granted. Should either party not give the nod, the Epic Spell is not permitted. As discussed above, the odds are low for either Corellon Larethian or Mystra to disapprove of a casting. And you can't dispute that High Magic is nothing special. Anyone can cast spells which do exactly the same thing as high magic as normal epic magic spells with no additional cost and without Correlons approval. Non elves can get the exact same effects with the exact same spell technique with the exact same effort and result. That Correlon needs to approve is more a cultural thing or is because of his elven portfolion but other races can use epic spells which are exact copies of elven high magic spells perfectly fine whithout Correlon/ -And, in order to do that, they would need to get their hands on the techniques used to develop said Elven High Magic spells, which is something that most Elves don't get access to. Karsus also didn't know what would happen. But "his" magic got banned while elves are free to make mistakes again. -Elven High Magic isn't destructive to the Weave. There are no Elven High Magic spells that allow the caster, or the circle to usurp the powers of a deity. True 10+ Level magic was destructive to the Weave, and Karsus' spell did allow the caster to usurp the powers of a deity. Killing millions while modifing the continent to their liking? Good. Killing whole nations with Floods? Good. Afflicting a race consisting half out of very good hearted beings with a magical afflictions which causes them to rage and to endanger themselves and many of the other races who live around them even though the elves could have protected them? Good. -Going by that logic, any state that goes to war with another state and causes high casulties, no matter what the reason war is for, should be considered evil. The Allied Powers of World War II should be considered evil then, because they caused billions of dollars worth of damage to Europe and the Pacific, killed hundreds of thousands of enemy soldiers, and dropped an atomic bomb. Now, I ask you- should the Allied Powers of World War II be considered the evil party of the war? Its also written that the elves were able to create a spell to protect dragons from the rage during the Crown Wars. So even if the elves at that point did not knew what caused the Rage but were still able to create a defense against it (unlikely imo) why haven't the elves shared this spell with the good dragons are at least created sanctuaries for them? Thats a ok explanation why they did it. But why didn't the elves reversed the effect when the dragons were no threat anymore and the only thing the rage accomplished was the destruction of dragons (good and evil alike) and the death of thousands of other beings which are killed by the raging dragons? Or if you believe that the elves did forget that they were responsible for the rage (which some people say is not possible) then they could at least have supplied the good dragons with King Killer shields. But they also didn't do that. Good? -That's a problem due to the poorly thought out and executed Year of the Rogue Dragons trilogy. There are multiple ways to fight a war. Complete destruction of the enemy including the civilians is a more evil way to do it. Keep in mind that because of their usual alignemtn elves should behave more good than humans. -According to today's PR rich society, sure. But, as little as even sixty years ago, this was not the case. If you weren't with us, you were against us. Civilians supported the war effort of an enemy, thus, they were our enemies, too.
BrennonGoldeye 07-03-07, 11:40 AM	Correlon does not have to grant anything. Get this through your skull Derren. When any elf uses High Magic, they must have the (at least tacit) approval of Corellon. Period. End'o'story. And you can't dispute that High Magic is nothing special. Anyone can cast spells which do exactly the same thing as high magic as normal epic magic spells with no additional cost and without Correlons approval. Yes, others can bring about the same effects through Epic Magic. It takes up a much higher % of their lives to get to such heights, they must pay higher penalties than the High Mages, their research takes even longer, and I don't quite think normal classless humans are able to participate in the rituals as the elves can. Still, nothing special.:rolleyes: Using a other elven society as justification in this case is not really convincing. Fine, we vicious Americans are a lawful society of individualists. Hows that? Its also written that the elves were able to create a spell to protect dragons from the rage during the Crown Wars. So even if the elves at that point did not knew what caused the Rage but were still able to create a defense against it (unlikely imo) why haven't the elves shared this spell with the good dragons are at least created sanctuaries for them? Come on Derren, at least try to get one right here. They have, and did. Also when someone can create a spell to destroy a whole nation one certainly can also create a spell to "just" destroy the army. And why, in this situation, would one do that? You have a nation of humans lead by a militant emperor intent upon cutting down your entire homeland so he can build ships to invade the rest of the lands of the Inner Sea. And guess what. It was the civilian loggers who were cutting down the trees. And killing the elves. 21 years later the elves fought back the only way they could be assured of victory(that victory being survival), they sank 90% under the waves. Ah phrase comes to mind.."uh uh uh, it's not nice to mess with Mother Nature". I would think that Mystra has a fair chance of knowing that the Sundering or Jhaamdath spell would malfunction. Probably not, since neither spell "malfunctioned". The Sundering did have unforeseen consequences, but it did what it was meant to. The destruction of Jhaamdath worked perfectly and was, IMO, an approporiate response to attempted genocide. :cheer: Did She know of the spells. Yep. Comes with the portfolio. Should She have stopped them? Look at Mystryl and you can answer that question yourself.:)
BrennonGoldeye 07-03-07, 11:41 AM	Think of it this way Derren. At least you help lots of folks increase their typing speed. ;)
sages 07-03-07, 12:30 PM	BrennonGoldeye -˝And why, in this situation, would one do that? You have a nation of humans lead by a militant emperor intent upon cutting down your entire homeland so he can build ships to invade the rest of the lands of the Inner Sea.˝ Do you respond to genocide with a genocide? Why wouldn't they show mercy to the innocent if they could only destroy the army? So in the WWII they should have killed every German and Italian child and all other civilians? The elves also killed many Aquatic elves with that wave.
Boda 07-03-07, 12:42 PM	-Elves are inherently chaotic good creatures. In other words, they are both with strong inclinations to be chaotic and good. Creatures like Beholders, Illithid, Demons and Chromatic Dragons are just the opposite. It is in their nature to be evil. They are born to evil, literally. So gold elfs elitism is chaotic good trait? But other chaotic good creatures dont share it. So elfs are born to good, but they can do evil, right? By the same reasoning, beholder, chromatics dragons, etc, could do good, right? The reinging logic sems to be:'' They are born evil to the core '' So actually, this paragons of evil are blameless, since they dont have free choice do they? So actually, a elf with free choice, that chooses to be evil or like GDan said, do somethings that others might think it's evil, are alot more dangerous and ''evil'' that the beholders, chromatics, etc. Dealing with absolutes is a tricky affair.
Derren S. 07-03-07, 02:06 PM	Get this through your skull Derren. When any elf uses High Magic, they must have the (at least tacit) approval of Corellon. Period. End'o'story. Sure, but not because the spell requires it. Other races can cast epic spells which are exact copies to high magic spells just fine without Correlon. This approval is, if anything, a cultural thing. Yes, others can bring about the same effects through Epic Magic. It takes up a much higher % of their lives to get to such heights, they must pay higher penalties than the High Mages, their research takes even longer, and I don't quite think normal classless humans are able to participate in the rituals as the elves can. Still, nothing special.:rolleyes: *sigh* ok, the non elf caster has +2 or +4 higher DC to cast the spell and has to pay more money to develop it. Thats all the advantages the High Mage PRC gives. Hardy a "much higher" cost. There is no "elven only" seed or mitigation factor. Fine, we vicious Americans are a lawful society of individualists. Hows that? And where is the connection to D&D? Come on Derren, at least try to get one right here. They have, and did. When? They didn't share this spell, they used it to protect their allies. The non elven ally dragosn were very clueless about what caused tha rage and that the elves have a protection against it. Or do you think Lareth decided to implement the risky plan of sleeping through the rage instead of just casting King Killer Shield to create sanctuaries out of fun? And why, in this situation, would one do that? You have a nation of humans lead by a militant emperor intent upon cutting down your entire homeland so he can build ships to invade the rest of the lands of the Inner Sea. And guess what. It was the civilian loggers who were cutting down the trees. And killing the elves. 21 years later the elves fought back the only way they could be assured of victory(that victory being survival), they sank 90% under the waves. Ah phrase comes to mind.."uh uh uh, it's not nice to mess with Mother Nature". No one messed with mother nature. They messed with elitist pseudogood elves who decided they need to preform genocide on them. They could have used Storm Erosion to destroy the cities without harm to the civilians, Probably not, since neither spell "malfunctioned". The Sundering did have unforeseen consequences, but it did what it was meant to. The destruction of Jhaamdath worked perfectly and was, IMO, an approporiate response to attempted genocide. :cheer: Read the Sundering entry in Cormanthyr. To quote part of its entry: "In its ultimate form, the Weave is temporarily torn asunder, and the damage is made manifest in major cataclysms and storms, tidal waves, and permanent changes to the lands of any planet." (So much about "High magic not destructive to the weave") Considering that the intended function of Karsus Avatar is "just" to temporarily steal the power of a deity, the Sundering is much more dangerous to the planet and to the Weave. Also Karsus Avatar also worked as intended with the unforseen consequence that having the power of a deity doesn't automatically mean that you can controll that power. So again, why did Netherese magic get banned while elves are still allowed to use much more dangerous magic which they have shown to be willing to use to destroy mortals and to damage the weave and Toril (Chauntea) alike?
MarkusTay63 07-03-07, 02:17 PM	Thats why I hate alignments, they're too artificial, and most other systems don't use them. About High Magic - Drow have been known to use High Magic rituals, in at least one documented case. Who granted that? :confused: Humans have also participated in Elven High Magic, so obviously humans can use it to. Given this fact and the one above, I don't think High Magic has anything to do with the Elves. It is a more ancient form a spellweaving that taps directly into raw magic, and bypasses the Weave. I would think Mystra has very little to say about that. On the other hand, Mystra would have allowed the destruction of Jaamdath because it was a psionic empire, not a magical one. She wouldn't want that 'stuff' catching on, know what I mean? Also, she would have punished Karsus over the Elves because Karsus KILLED her! The Elves, who were the most magically potent race at the time, simple killed millions of lesser cratures she could care less about. Since the Elves had the potential of raising the magic level in the world, and therefore contributing to her portfolio, she would have wanted them to take a position of dominance back then. But personally, I still don't think Mystra has a lot of say over High Magic - it just doesn't fit (canon or not).
BrennonGoldeye 07-03-07, 03:36 PM	BrennonGoldeye -˝And why, in this situation, would one do that? You have a nation of humans lead by a militant emperor intent upon cutting down your entire homeland so he can build ships to invade the rest of the lands of the Inner Sea.˝ Do you respond to genocide with a genocide? Why wouldn't they show mercy to the innocent if they could only destroy the army? So in the WWII they should have killed every German and Italian child and all other civilians? The elves also killed many Aquatic elves with that wave. Sages, sages know how to quote.:P As my original quote stated, the army wasn't the ones cutting down the trees. It was the loggers. If a colony of ant's were invading your house, destroying your walls, removing your food, attacking your kin, I doubt you would have little trouble dropping an ant trap and poisoning the queen. Kill an enemy's army without occupying it and soon you will have a brand new army at your door, especially when they breed like, you guessed it, ants. This isn't modern era Earth we are talking about. This is FR. Nothing in the RW me could condone genocide. This isn't the RW, and if in the FR your folk were constantly driving mine out of their homeland and slaughtering all in their path, then yes, I would respond by removing your folks ability to attack me, permanently. In fact, I would call it a "Good" act. The elves of Nikerymath saved countless lives of all races by ending the threat then and there. So gold elfs elitism is chaotic good trait? But other chaotic good creatures dont share it. Boda, what is the dominant alignment of the Gold Elves? Hmm?? Do you even know? So elfs are born to good, but they can do evil, right? By the same reasoning, beholder, chromatics dragons, etc, could do good, right? No Boda, no-one ever gets past their birth and they always follow the strictures of their ancestors to the tee. :rolleyes: And it's elves. The reinging logic sems to be:'' They are born evil to the core '' So actually, this paragons of evil are blameless, since they dont have free choice do they? I believe "Paragons of Evil" wouldn't quite be something a mortal is born into. Graz'zt is a Paragon of Evil. Drow, goblins, ogres and even Red Dragons are far from "Paragons of Evil". At least to start out with.;) So actually, a elf with free choice, that chooses to be evil or like GDan said, do somethings that others might think it's evil, are alot more dangerous and ''evil'' that the beholders, chromatics, etc. Well, I would say less expected, and probably more dangerous, but no more evil than the troop of Gloom I'm sending your way. :devil: Dealing with absolutes is a tricky affair. Yes, yes it is. Thanks for the visual aid. By the way, check out this link. http://dictionary.reference.com/ Might come in handy with all those elfs and their reinging. *sigh* ok, the non elf caster has +2 or +4 higher DC to cast the spell and has to pay more money to develop it. Thats all the advantages the High Mage PRC gives. Hardy a "much higher" cost. There is no "elven only" seed or mitigation factor. Now lets just see if you can go a tad bit farther with that. Humans living long enough to cast such spells. Elves? Humans finding other humans who would actually share such knowledge with them? Elves? Humans being able to get anywhere near the DC of High Magic Spells? Elves? I'm not saying that it is impossible. This is AD&D after all. All I'm saying is that High Magic is a "sub-section" of Epic magic that outpaces the normal in the same way the Netherese did, only better. Hello? Elven civilians aiding in casting? Oh my, I just lost 100yrs of lifespan. Saved my people and I'm not dead, and I haven't ruined magic for the rest of the world(sorry boss;) ). Epic magic is very capable of recreating the effects of High Magic, it's just more costly to those who are not of the People. Sorry ya don't like it. I'm actually not the biggest fan myself. :) And where is the connection to D&D? Good god man. :P You weren't happy with drow as an example, so I gave you a human example that I thought would allow you to understand. That seems to be a lot harder task than I thought. :confused: When? They didn't share this spell, they used it to protect their allies. The non elven ally dragosn were very clueless about what caused tha rage and that the elves have a protection against it. Or do you think Lareth decided to implement the risky plan of sleeping through the rage instead of just casting King Killer Shield to create sanctuaries out of fun? Hmm. So sharing is only sharing when you share it with everyone? I believe if you look a little closer at the lore you would know that Lareth had the ability to be totally unaffected. He could have left for a couple of months. He just didn't want to lose His hoard. Or His power. Just like the chromatics. The exact reason the elves created the Dracorage in the first place. Draconic power. Those they trusted they shared with. Those they didn't.... No one messed with mother nature. They messed with elitist pseudogood elves who decided they need to preform genocide on them. They could have used Storm Erosion to destroy the cities without harm to the civilians, Oh great, now you have 100,000's of homeless humans who need more wood to build new homes. That's brilliant.:rolleyes: Read the Sundering entry in Cormanthyr. To quote part of its entry: "In its ultimate form, the Weave is temporarily torn asunder, and the damage is made manifest in major cataclysms and storms, tidal waves, and permanent changes to the lands of any planet." (So much about "High magic not destructive to the weave") Considering that the intended function of Karsus Avatar is "just" to temporarily steal the power of a deity, the Sundering is much more dangerous to the planet and to the Weave. Also Karsus Avatar also worked as intended with the unforseen consequence that having the power of a deity doesn't automatically mean that you can controll that power. So again, why did Netherese magic get banned while elves are still allowed to use much more dangerous magic which they have shown to be willing to use to destroy mortals and to damage the weave and Toril (Chauntea) alike? Finally, a good point. I would say that K ****** of the wrong Chick, on purpose. The elves didn't get off for free. As has been pointed out they also suffered greatly, and, to put it quite simply, they didn't try to subsume a God. Some of their kin did that, and their universe, heck, even their era, ceased to exist. Let's not pretend that the elves of Faerun haven't paid for their mistakes. They have. Luckily for them they weren't on the receiving end of that Tidal Wave. Not so lucky for the Psi-Apes.:P
Derren S. 07-03-07, 03:54 PM	Now lets just see if you can go a tad bit farther with that. Humans living long enough to cast such spells. Elves? Humans finding other humans who would actually share such knowledge with them? Elves? Humans being able to get anywhere near the DC of High Magic Spells? Elves? I'm not saying that it is impossible. This is AD&D after all. All I'm saying is that High Magic is a "sub-section" of Epic magic that outpaces the normal in the same way the Netherese did, only better. Hello? Elven civilians aiding in casting? Oh my, I just lost 100yrs of lifespan. Saved my people and I'm not dead, and I haven't ruined magic for the rest of the world(sorry boss;) ). Epic magic is very capable of recreating the effects of High Magic, it's just more costly to those who are not of the People. Sorry ya don't like it. I'm actually not the biggest fan myself. :) High Magic is not a sub-section of epic magic. High Magic is epic magic with a different (cultural) name and a special PRC. Good god man. :P You weren't happy with drow as an example, so I gave you a human example that I thought would allow you to understand. That seems to be a lot harder task than I thought. :confused: I assumed that you know that real world examples do not mix well with D&D worlds. Apparently I assumed wrong. Whats hard in finding a non elven D&D example? And really. When the statement is "The elven society is too lawful for their alignment" answering with "But look at those other elves. They are also chaotic and have a lawful society" is not really very convincing. Hmm. So sharing is only sharing when you share it with everyone? I believe if you look a little closer at the lore you would know that Lareth had the ability to be totally unaffected. He could have left for a couple of months. He just didn't want to lose His hoard. Or His power. Just like the chromatics. The exact reason the elves created the Dracorage in the first place. Draconic power. Those they trusted they shared with. Those they didn't.... The elves didn't share it. They used it when their allies in a war needed it. But the allies never got their hands (claws) on the spell themself and neither did the elves give them any informations about the rage and how to protect themself and others from it. That is not sharing. Please tell me where it says that Lareth had a way to protect himself from the rage. I find it hard to believe that he could do that, yet he still left his hoard to sleep with the others and in the end he was killed by the rage. Why didn 't the dragons ask the elves to ward the sanctuary with the King Killer Shield spell (Or why wasn't such a sanctuary established long ago)? Oh great, now you have 100,000's of homeless humans who need more wood to build new homes. That's brilliant.:rolleyes: Considering how people described them, they wanted to kill elves no matter what. But after a Storm Errosion they do not have any economy to support their war (not to mention that a lot of forest gets restored). Finally, a good point. I would say that K ****** of the wrong Chick, on purpose. The elves didn't get off for free. As has been pointed out they also suffered greatly, and, to put it quite simply, they didn't try to subsume a God. Some of their kin did that, and their universe, heck, even their era, ceased to exist. Let's not pretend that the elves of Faerun haven't paid for their mistakes. They have. Luckily for them they weren't on the receiving end of that Tidal Wave. Not so lucky for the Psi-Apes.:P Compared to the Netherese the elves did get off free. They only suffered the consequences of the spell. The Netherese did that too and in addition got robbed of their most powerfull weapon. And they didn't try to subsume a god, they tried to temporarily steal a gods power. That isn't any worse than trying to temporarily destroy the weave (which is Mystra by the way) like the Sundering does. Also why wasn't only the Avatar spell banned but the whole 10th+ level spells? High magic is as dangerous and destructive (to mortals and the weave alike) than those spells and the elves have shown that they are willing to use it.
Karsus the Mad 07-03-07, 04:08 PM	Get this through your skull Derren. When any elf uses High Magic, they must have the (at least tacit) approval of Corellon. Period. End'o'story. I always thought it was a Mystra+Corellon type of thing myself. Meh. Now lets just see if you can go a tad bit farther with that. Humans living long enough to cast such spells. Elves? Humans finding other humans who would actually share such knowledge with them? Elves? Humans being able to get anywhere near the DC of High Magic Spells? Elves? I'm not saying that it is impossible. This is AD&D after all. All I'm saying is that High Magic is a "sub-section" of Epic magic that outpaces the normal in the same way the Netherese did, only better. Hello? Elven civilians aiding in casting? Oh my, I just lost 100yrs of lifespan. Saved my people and I'm not dead, and I haven't ruined magic for the rest of the world(sorry boss ). Epic magic is very capable of recreating the effects of High Magic, it's just more costly to those who are not of the People. Sorry ya don't like it. I'm actually not the biggest fan myself. I'm not sure where you got that from, but I'll be glad to go further into the subtle facts of epic magic with you my dear;) Research takes precisely the amount of time it takes as dictated by the final Spellcraft DC of an epic spell (taking into account factors, mitigating factor, class feature bonuses, etc). Given that the Elven High Mage prc is an epic prestige class that can at earliest be taken at 24th level (requires two epic feats....oddly, Epic Spellcasting is required to gain any benefit but it's not listed as a requirement!) which, when combined with the lore of how long apprenticeships last, means it actually takes far far longer to get to such heights than a regular wizard of 21st level who takes Epic Spellcasting. The elven high mage recieves a -2 to a specific seed, saving him 18,000gp, 720 XP, and 1 day in development costs when developing an epic spell utilizing that specific seed. He can choose up to 4 seeds by 8th level (for a grand total of -8 if he uses all four seeds in a single spell). That's the same effect as an xp burn of 800 XP or an additional 8 minutes in the casting time. And that's only if he uses all four seeds he chose. If he uses only 1 seed, that's a -2. He/she also gets a 25% reduction to a single epic spell, up to a total of 4 individual epic spells by 9th level. All other spells researched are at full cost in accordance with epic spell development rules. The Netherese arcanist, despite it's craptastiness, outstrips the HM. The Netherese arcanist outstrips the High Magi when you take into account that an NA pays only 7,000gp x final Spellcraft DC, and adjusts time to research and XP accordingly to any and all epic spells he ever develops. The Netherese arcanist also gets a free +2 to the saving throw DC of all his epic spells, (which ordinarily requires a +4 to the Spellcraft DC) which saves him another 36,000gp, 1,440 XP, and 1 day, making it all that much more difficult to protect against. And of course that -5 to Spellcraft DC for any epic spell within his/her major field, saving him an additional 45,000gp, 1,800 XP, and another day in the research department (and making it that much easier to successfully cast). And no, Field specialization doesn't take away 1/3 of all seeds from the NA. It prevents an NA from creating epic spells based off the seeds, yes, but does not prevent one from being used as a secondary seed. The Elven High Mage Epic Spell skills outstrips the Netherese arcanist's only in craptastic value. Humans can participate equally in rituals. Elves get absolutely no additional bonuses for utilizing the Additional Participants mitigating factor, and are subject to the same restrictions (each participant can sacrifice only a single spell slot) as everyone else. This is what really whacks me out about the high mage PrC, among all the rest of it as well. No additional benefits to ritual magic? Meh. I hate both PrC's. A quick and dirty run down. Start with 34th level characters with base 18 Int Elf Wizard 24/ Elven High Mage 10 20 (+2 race) + 8 (level) = 28 (+9 modifier) Max ranks in Knowledge arcana (to determine number of epic spell slots) = 37, resulting in 3 epic spells per day.. Max ranks in Spellcraft 37. After modifier +46 Caster Level: 29th Seed affinity x 4 (-2 to total of four seeds of choice). Saving of 18,000gp, 720 XP, 1 day for researching. Total amount to be saved if all four seeds used in a single epic spell 72,000gp, 2,880 XP, 1 day. Mythal invention (pays only 75% of development cost for a total of 4 epic spells of choice). In this regard, I'll use a DC 50 epic spell. To develop as is would be 450,000gp, 18,000 XP, 9 days. In the best short term scenario: An HM can use all four seeds in a spell to get max benefit. That's results in a DC of 42 spell costing 378,000gp, 15,120 XP, 8 days. Lets say he uses his mythal invention for that. That drops it even further to a cost of 283,500gp, 11,340 XP, 8 days. Savings: 166,500gp, 6,660 XP, 1 day. That's a best short term scenario. Remember, he can only do that with a total of 4 epic spells. After number 4, best long term scenario becomes 378,000gp, 15,120 XP, 8 days. Final Spellcraft DC required for him to cast the spell: 42 (easily covered). Saving throw DC of the spell: 29. Worst case scenario, no benefits means he's paying 450,000gp, 18,000 XP, 9 days. With a Spellcraft DC of 50. Saving throw DC of 29. Human Wizard 29/ Netherese arcanist 5 18 + 8 (level) = 26 (+8 modifier) Max ranks in Knowledge arcana (to determine number of epic spell slots) = 37, resulting in 3 epic spells per day. Max ranks in Spellcraft 37. After modifier +45 Caster Level: 34th Field Specialization (variation) (-5 Spellcraft DC of epic spells based on any of 8 seeds). Saves 45,000gp, 1,800 XP, 0 days for any epic spell utilizing any of the variation seeds. Epic Spell Artisan: multiply Spellcraft DC of epic spell by 7,000gp instead of 9,000gp to determine cost, xp, and time to develope. Saving: N/A soley dependent upon Spellcraft DC. Greater Spell Focus (epic): +2 to the saving throw DC of each spell, without increasing the Spellcraft DC by +4. Saving of 36,000gp, 1,440 XP, 0 days. In this regard, I'll use a DC 50 epic spell. To develop as is would be 450,000gp, 18,000 XP, 9 days. In the best short term scenario, an NA recieves a -5 to the Spellcraft DC automatically if it uses any of 8 seeds (which this does, best scenario thing). That results in a DC 45 spell costing 405,000gp, 16,200 XP, 9 days. However, he always calculates it by x7,000gp rather than 9,000gp. That results in a cost of 315,000gp, 12,600 XP, 7 day. Savings: 135,000gp, 5,400 XP, 2 days. That's a best short term scenario. Unlike the Elven High Mage however, it's also the best long term scenario. Final Spellcraft DC required for him to cast the spell: 45 (easily covered). Saving throw DC of the spell: 30 (without the extra cost). Worst case scenario, no benefits means he's still only paying 350,000gp, 14,000 XP, 7 days. With a Spellcraft DC of 50. Saving throw DC of 30. What have we learned. Best Short Term for EHM: 283,500gp, 11,340 XP, 8 days Best Long Term for EHM: 378,000gp, 15,120 XP, 8 days Worst Case for EHM: 450,000gp, 18,000 XP, 9 days Best Short Term for NA: 315,000gp, 12,600 XP, 7 day Best Long Term for NA: 315, 000gp, 12,600 XP, 7 day Worst Case for NA: 350,000gp, 14,000 XP, 7 days And the NA still has a a saving throw 1 higher than the EHM, and a Caster level 5 higher. For the EHM to equal the NA in those regards with an epic spell to be of equal DC and have a caster level to overcome a targets spell restance and to beat a foe's dispel attempts, it would increase the cost by (+2+10+10=+22) 198,000gp, 7,920 XP, 4 days. But then that would put it at a DC of 66 even in the best scenario. And why, in this situation, would one do that? You have a nation of humans lead by a militant emperor intent upon cutting down your entire homeland so he can build ships to invade the rest of the lands of the Inner Sea. And guess what. It was the civilian loggers who were cutting down the trees. And killing the elves. 21 years later the elves fought back the only way they could be assured of victory(that victory being survival), they sank 90% under the waves. Ah phrase comes to mind.."uh uh uh, it's not nice to mess with Mother Nature". Ya know, that sounds a lot like Aryvandaar, the whole empire lead by militant emperor conquering and killing everyone in their way thing. Not even trying to start one of those threads, just happen to notice the odd surface similarity that had previously escaped me.
sages 07-03-07, 04:56 PM	On the other hand, Mystra would have allowed the destruction of Jaamdath because it was a psionic empire, not a magical one. She wouldn't want that 'stuff' catching on, know what I mean? Why would she then save their psionic god? As my original quote stated, the army wasn't the ones cutting down the trees. It was the loggers. If a colony of ant's were invading your house, destroying your walls, removing your food, attacking your kin, I doubt you would have little trouble dropping an ant trap and poisoning the queen. You cant compare humans to ants. There were innocents, there were those who rebeld against the actions of their army.(Most of the church of Auppenser was against the war.) Some examples. Quoted from candlekeep Dharien orders the military to seize those udoxias still in possession of the church. Hundreds of Jhaamdathans in cities loyal to the church bar the military from entering the temples. After a short standoff, Dharien surprisingly concedes defeat ordering his troops to stand down. Hundreds of dissenters among the church of Auppenser are imprisoned. Some are publicly executed for treason but most are released after being altered with mind-affecting psionics that instill loyalty to Dharien. Church protest over the new regime declines and many members go into hiding. The city of Gharrent, led by church members, attempts to secede from the empire. It is denounced as rebellious by Dhorien who immediately invades the city to crush the rebellion. All suspected rebels and all psiarchs and monastic servants are tried for treason and summarily executed publicly. Gharrent's udoxias is removed by Dhorien's forces and hidden. Loggers didn't destroy the elves, army did. What about the aquatic elves(Coryselmal), did they also deserve destruction by the tidal wave. Elves are using their high magic recklessly.
MarkusTay63 07-03-07, 05:04 PM	Why would she then save their psionic god?Professional Curtesy? ;) You know what I'm even more tired of then Stuck-up Elves? Threads about Elves!!! :headexplo Is there no Halfling and Dwarf love? I can understand the Gnomes (Ed didn't have them in his game, and neither do I), but the other two are still kinda cool. And what happen to all the Leprecauns? They were always after me Lucky Charms! :P
sages 07-03-07, 05:16 PM	You know what I'm even more tired of then Stuck-up Elves? Threads about Elves!!! :headexplo Because the tree huggers are very mischievous. I can not stop loving them.:D
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 05:17 PM	About High Magic - Drow have been known to use High Magic rituals, in at least one documented case. Who granted that? :confused: -What the Drow cast in Sacrifice of the Widow was not Elven High Magic. Lisa Smedman still has some learning to do. Epic Magic cannot be written as a scroll (thanks Brennon!). "Epic" Scrolls are mundane scrolls, with metamagic tricks applied to them. Furthermore, all Elven High Magic records rest in Selu'Kiira, not scrolls. Humans have also participated in Elven High Magic, so obviously humans can use it to. -Anyone can contribute to the Circle in a Ritual of Compliment or a Ritual of Myriad. The Center of the Circle must be Elven, however. Contributors to a Circle need not be Elven, or even magicians. So gold elfs elitism is chaotic good trait? -Elitism is a trait of those who are superior to others. But other chaotic good creatures dont share it. So elfs are born to good, but they can do evil, right? By the same reasoning, beholder, chromatics dragons, etc, could do good, right? -Incorrect. I'll explain this as best as I can, and hopefully you'll get it. It is a bit complicated. Are you familiar with the Nature versus Nurture argument? If not, here it is a very brief nutshell. A being is born with a preset way of behavior (Nature), or is born with a tabula rasa (blank slate), and it taught how to behave (Nurture). -Elves are creatures that are born with a tabula rasa. Elven society teaches young Elflings how to act. Thus, since the majority of Elven society is Chaotic Good, the majority of Elves are going to be Chaotic Good. Some groups of Elves are taught to be more respectful of tradition than others. These Elves (Sun Elves) are going to be more law oriented. Other groups of Elves are taught that being evil is what is accepted(Drow), and these Elves are going to be evil. -Other creatures are not born with a tabula rasa. There is something in their very being that tells them how to behave. Demons, for example, are Chaotic Evil, pure and simple. Their very essence causes them to behave in a chaotic and evil manner. Devils are Lawful Evil. Their very nature tells them to behave in a lawful and evil manner. The reinging logic sems to be:'' They are born evil to the core '' So actually, this paragons of evil are blameless, since they dont have free choice do they? -Choice or no choice, evil is still evil, and needs to be snuffed out, does it not? So actually, a elf with free choice, that chooses to be evil or like GDan said, do somethings that others might think it's evil, are alot more dangerous and ''evil'' that the beholders, chromatics, etc. -Perhaps. There are a lot of variables in the situation, though, that prevents us from saying a definite yes or no. For example, a Aquatic Elf who becomes evil to the core, but can't really manifest any of that hostility, is obviously not as dangerous as the Ancient Red Wyrm that kidnaps princess' and razes farming villages for fun.
MarkusTay63 07-03-07, 05:39 PM	-What the Drow cast in Sacrifice of the Widow was not Elven High Magic. Lisa Smedman still has some learning to do. Epic Magic cannot be written as a scroll (thanks Brennon!). "Epic" Scrolls are mundane scrolls, with metamagic tricks applied to them. Furthermore, all Elven High Magic records rest in Selu'Kiira, not scrolls.Which brings me to my point - High Magic is a more ancient form of spell casting, and does not neccessarily belong exclusively to the Elves. The traditions of Elven High Magic are theirs and theirs alone, but thats the same as saying 'Halruan Magic' , 'Thayan Magic' or 'Netherese Magic'. Those are all just different traditions applied to the same form of casting spells. Karsus's Heavy Magic was an idiotic attempt at using weave magic to synthetically tap into 'True Magic', or Primal magic, or whatever else you want to call it. The way I see it, Mana is a primal force in the universe which can be used to alter reality or even create physical material. It is THE creative force in the univers, and ALL forms of magic derive from it, include Arcane, Devine, Hishna, Voodoo, Alchemy, etc, etc... Elven High Magic is just one tradition for tapping into that primal force, and is most likely directly related to tradional Fey Magic (if you read folklore, you know that many spell effects happened while the fairies were singing). Anyone tapping directly into Mana is basically doing 'high magic', its just called different things by different people. High Magic is almost like an unlimited wish spell - the more power (casters) you put into it, the greater changes you can make. High Magic requires singing, or at the very least chanting or even rhyming. It is unlocked by using a complicated formula of harmonicss and rythms modulated just so. For what its worth, there are two (crappy) PrCs in complete Arcane that try to recapture that. The Sublime Song is the Music of the Spheres... it is the true voice of God and the most powerful way to tap into the creation forces of the universe. Power word spells, True names... all just cheap reflections of true High Magic. When the Elves use their version, they request Corellon act as a conduit to the devine - and that is probably why they wind up over-powering many of their rituals. Its like pouring Rocket Fuel into a Moped. :cool: Mystra created "The Weave" so that mortals would have a simpler time manipulating magic, while at the same time allowing her to maintain some control over the sphere's Mana useage. The weave is nothing more then an interface, like Windows on a computer. Programmers who know how to use Assembler are much more powerful, but that is an incredibly difficult language to learn and is basically a 'lost art' nowadays. High Magic is much the same, IMHO - humans don't have hundreds of years to learn all of the intricate rituals so they take the short-cut and use the interface (the Weave). Just my :twocents:
Stigger 07-03-07, 05:52 PM	You know, I was never all that impressed with the idea of ancient magic... if it was useful, it would survive, if it wasn't, it would be discarded and lost... how many killing spells do you really need in the world afterall. As to Elven High Magic, its ancient certainly, but that doesn't necessarily mean that its more powerful, simply older. And probably not as streamlined and up-to-date. Hard to be on the bleeding edge of magic using archaic techniques and theories, if you see where I'm going with that... same could be pretty easily applied to Netheril and Imaskar really.
boards 07-03-07, 07:13 PM	No one messed with mother nature. They messed with elitist pseudogood elves who decided they need to preform genocide on them. They could have used Storm Erosion to destroy the cities without harm to the civilians. So the elves create Storm Erosion, 20 years later (a very short time to an elf) the humans are at it again, are they expected to continually repeat this act. You say it doesnt harm civillains, it destroyed there homes, put them out in nature with no shelter, their food all gone, 100's if not 1000's of people will die. Humans have a tendency not to forgive acts against them, and future generations will attack the evil elves to destroyed their precious homes. Given that High Magic often takes a tole on the casters (ie death), will there be elves able to cast the magic again and again. If they do die, what happens next time. The elves were backed into a corner and they lashed out. "If you mess with the bear, don't be surprised when the bear fights back." This applies equally well with elves. If Jhamdath hadnt gone all imperalistic and started attacking elves and destroying there homeland they wouldn't have acted. Jhamdath attacked the elves and they paid the price. Elves dont act like 20th century humans and they dont have a Geneva Convention that tells them that civllians are innocent, so why should they put the lives of humans against the lives of elves. Elves arent philanthropist giving money to the poor, they look out for the well being of elves. This doesnt make them evil, it simply makes them not 20th century humans.
XHereticX 07-03-07, 07:27 PM	Jesus, just one day and...:eek: Derren, nice work on getting people fired up over this topic;) As it stands, I still believe elves are an inherently good race that has in effect changed due to the pressures of "modern" Faerun. The elves certainly have suffered a lot at the hand of the younger races, most notably humans, and therefore nurse wounds and burning anger at such. Elves overall however, compared to humans, dwarves, and many other races, are more inclined towards good and only seem more evil because of their greater power. Remember, the elven pantheon, which embodies the ideals and traditions of the elves, has NO evil deities, while the dwarven one does and the human...you don't even have to ask. As for High Magic, Karsus has already maintained that it is drawn from a source outside Faerun so technically Mystra has no control over it. However, Corellon being the nice guy he is does allow her to monitor in its use for the practical reason in keeping his mages in check.
sages 07-03-07, 07:39 PM	I also agree that elves were right in teaching Jhaamdath not to mess with elves, but could they not do it with better precision? Or with not so dire consequences to Coryselmal.
XHereticX 07-03-07, 07:41 PM	I also agree that elves were right in teaching Jhaamdath not to mess with elves, but could they not do it with better precision? Once again, they didn't intend to commit mass genocide, only to stop the Jhaamandathi. They lost control of their High Magic and overdid it, just like the Dark Disaster and the Sundering of Evermeet.
The Ubbergeek 07-03-07, 07:46 PM	ALL magic is overseen by the Weave incarnation, no exception. Elves should not have a freeway, and I guess it's just the elves's pride who claim otherwise.
boards 07-03-07, 07:56 PM	It may have changed since Cormanthor, but in that book it states that High Magic is the direct energy of the weave, not reduced/directed by the use of components. High magic can work outside of Toril, ie Tintageer, but it does not draw its power from somewhere outside of Toril.
421 07-03-07, 08:33 PM	Going by that logic, any state that goes to war with another state and causes high casulties, no matter what the reason war is for, should be considered evil. The Allied Powers of World War II should be considered evil then, because they caused billions of dollars worth of damage to Europe and the Pacific, killed hundreds of thousands of enemy soldiers, and dropped an atomic bomb. Now, I ask you- should the Allied Powers of World War II be considered the evil party of the war? WW II is an exception. Quite a few war did not have a "good party". Just conflicting interest. And why, in this situation, would one do that? You have a nation of humans lead by a militant emperor intent upon cutting down your entire homeland so he can build ships to invade the rest of the lands of the Inner Sea. And guess what. It was the civilian loggers who were cutting down the trees. And killing the elves. 21 years later the elves fought back the only way they could be assured of victory(that victory being survival), they sank 90% under the waves. Ah phrase comes to mind.."uh uh uh, it's not nice to mess with Mother Nature". With the same motto, the US would have nuked half of europe and all japan during WW II. The Jhaamdathan Empire, wasn't an "empire of evil". It was founded in -5800DR, and destroyed in -255DR. Dharien's bloody coup to take control of the empire was in -276DR. Now, Dharien rules 20 years out of 5550.... During the 5524 years before Dharien, the main drive of Jhaamdath's foreign policy was to set slaves from calimshan and tethyr free. That hardly qualify them as an unredeemable band of hairy barbarian. One could expect the mainly chaotic elf to be rather sympathetic to that kind of goal. They have done the same for the slaves of netheril. Finding a non-elven empire with the same respect for individual freedom should have pleased them. One could even expect that long-living people like elf should also have long memory, and should be able to remember that time. After all as it has been already told many times, 20 years for an elf is just a fleeting instant. Yet, no after a mere 20 years they just blown it up. With no second thoughts on the fact that hundreds of Jhaamdathans in cities loyal to the church bar the military from entering the temples in -273, or that the city of Gharrent have attempted to secede from the empire in -264, or the rebellion of the church of Auppenser. But, to save the tree they nuke it with a tidal wave which has probably destroyed the tree anyway. All in all the destruction of Jhaamdath sounds to me as an ill-designed way to explain the relative lack of psionic in Faerun. Elitism is a trait of those who are superior to others. Elitism is a trait of those who think they are superior to others As for High Magic, Karsus has already maintained that it is drawn from a source outside Faerun so technically Mystra has no control over it. No matter where it come from, as long as it tap on the weave Mystra has dominion over it. A wizard from another plane may be able to cast true 10th level magic on his home plane, but he can't do it on Toril, at least not without Mystra approval.
Zsych 07-03-07, 08:53 PM	As far as the Sundering and Dark Disaster are concerned. Both happened under Mystryl. The Sundering was harmful to the Weave, but Mystryl at least chose not to be bothered by that. Mystra, chose to be bothered by Karsus spell. As for the destruction of Jhaamdath. I think that Mystra should be able to foresee a spell going out of control, if she can see it at all. She chose not to interfere, for whatever reasons she had. Really, the first Mystra wasn't actually aligned with good, so there was no serious need for her to act. --- As for high elven magic not being harmful to the Weave. I suspect that all magic, and especially all powerful magic, puts a strain on the Weave, and Mystra brings in magic from the surrounding areas to support the magic needs of an area(to a certain degree). I suppose High elven magic is likely to be much more rare than the 10+ magic the Netherese were using, since few elves know it, and they don't actually use it in their regular lives.
XHereticX 07-03-07, 09:09 PM	As far as the Sundering and Dark Disaster are concerned. Both happened under Mystryl. The Sundering was harmful to the Weave, but Mystryl at least chose not to be bothered by that. Mystra, chose to be bothered by Karsus spell. As for the destruction of Jhaamdath. I think that Mystra should be able to foresee a spell going out of control, if she can see it at all. She chose not to interfere, for whatever reasons she had. Really, the first Mystra wasn't actually aligned with good, so there was no serious need for her to act. --- As for high elven magic not being harmful to the Weave. I suspect that all magic, and especially all powerful magic, puts a strain on the Weave, and Mystra brings in magic from the surrounding areas to support the magic needs of an area(to a certain degree). I suppose High elven magic is likely to be much more rare than the 10+ magic the Netherese were using, since few elves know it, and they don't actually use it in their regular lives. CN Mystryl was did not set rules after the sundering. LN Mystra did set rules after Karsus's Avatar. Make sense?;) (hint hint, check out the alignments) Oh, High Magic is not even drawn from the weave, if what Karsus says is right. Plus, Corellon has highest jurisdiction over it, not any of the three Mystras.
Zsych 07-03-07, 09:13 PM	I refuse to believe that about elven high magic. Elves probably just ask Corellon for permission as part of a ritual(or gave him power over their use of high magic, through their belief that he has power over it, rather than due to any actual power he had over it) If I recall correctly from 2E, High elven magic was mostly a case of being more in touch with the Weave, and circle casting, where different parts of a spell would be handled by different people, so one guy would just pull out a lot of uncontrollable power, and the others would redirect that power, working together to get what they want. ... wasn't exactly clerical power, being drawn from a god.
Karsus the Mad 07-03-07, 09:20 PM	Oh, High Magic is not even drawn from the weave, if what Karsus says is right. Plus, Corellon has highest jurisdiction over it, not any of the three Mystras. Except, of course, he's not correct, at least not in the manner I think you're interpreting. He said Corellon was the source of High Magic. He never said it wasn't drawn via the Weave. Just like shadow magic, the plane of shadow is the source of shadow magic, but while utilized in Realmspace, it still must utilize the Weave, or that raw magic is the predominant source for magic, but the Weave is still required to access that source. While in Realmspace, High Magic, like any magic that doesn't draw upon the Shadow Weave (or whatever pluma and table draw on) draws upon the Weave, as such Mystra (or whatever past or future incarnation of the Weave) holds highest jurisdiction over the energy drawn via the Weave to achieve the effect of the ritual. While not in Realmspace, it draws upon whatever provides magic. Nothing has ever mentioned that it has it's own unique conduit, thus it doesn't. Perform High Magic on a different plane? It draws it's power from whatever provides access to magic for the plane.
XHereticX 07-03-07, 10:01 PM	Except, of course, he's not correct, at least not in the manner I think you're interpreting. He said Corellon was the source of High Magic. He never said it wasn't drawn via the Weave. Just like shadow magic, the plane of shadow is the source of shadow magic, but while utilized in Realmspace, it still must utilize the Weave, or that raw magic is the predominant source for magic, but the Weave is still required to access that source. While in Realmspace, High Magic, like any magic that doesn't draw upon the Shadow Weave (or whatever pluma and table draw on) draws upon the Weave, as such Mystra (or whatever past or future incarnation of the Weave) holds highest jurisdiction over the energy drawn via the Weave to achieve the effect of the ritual. While not in Realmspace, it draws upon whatever provides magic. Nothing has ever mentioned that it has it's own unique conduit, thus it doesn't. Perform High Magic on a different plane? It draws it's power from whatever provides access to magic for the plane. Ahh of course, the weave is just the conduit from which it is drawn, like all magic, but is not the source. Silly me, I can't believe I forgot that:embarrass Still, it is Corellon that has ultimate jurisdiction over High Magic, though Mystra has the actual power to ban its drawing, she could not do it due to divine political reasons without Corellon's ascent.
Karsus the Mad 07-03-07, 10:17 PM	Ahh of course, the weave is just the conduit from which it is drawn, like all magic, but is not the source. Silly me, I can't believe I forgot that:embarrass Still, it is Corellon that has ultimate jurisdiction over High Magic, though Mystra has the actual power to ban its drawing, she could not do it due to divine political reasons without Corellon's ascent. Thus I used this very carefully worded sentence :) "as such Mystra (or whatever past or future incarnation of the Weave) holds highest jurisdiction over the energy drawn via the Weave to achieve the effect of the ritual." I didn't say she had jurisdiction over the high magic ritual itself, merely the energy drawn by the ritual via the Weave. Yes, I know, I'm splitting hairs here, but discussing anything divine is splitting hairs, so to speak.
MarkusTay63 07-04-07, 03:50 AM	If Shadow Weave magic must go through the Weave, then that just doesn't make sense. It has also been established that Pluma (Hishna? I always get them mixed up) magic doesn't draw on the weave at all. If the Weave is a conduit to Mana (magical energy), then there most certainly can be other conduits, like the Shadow Weave. Mystra might have final say about all magic, but the Weave is not absolute. Mystra is a human god, and there were plenty of others casting magic long before humans stopped living in caves. Why would such a human concept like Mystra be able to control forces that were around long before she was? The whole system is fundamentally flawed. The Sarrukh, Batarchi, and Aaerie would have laughed at her. I personally think Mystra's Church has a good PR dept., and they spread that propaganda. The rest of the planet hasn't even heard of Mystra!
Drew1369r 07-04-07, 04:06 AM	The shadow weave is the space between the weave itself and Mystra has absolutly NO control over the shadow weave... Any magic that touches the weave Mystra has full control over and it doesn't matter what type of magic it is. I have no idea what this Pluma or Hishna magic is so if it ain't published in 3.x ed it doesn't exist to those of us that have no earlier versions so why is it even being discussed... Hows this for a rule, if its in a free download page for WotC provide a link and a page number so we (those without the earlier versions) can read these things as well, if its not free lets leave these stupid 2nd and 1st ed crap out of the discussion because it doesn't help anyone but those that has the source meterials. Sorry for the vent but its getting stupid with all the "well in the 1st ed grey box it says this or in 2nd ed it says this" SOME OF US DON'T HAVE THOSE!!!
Derren S. 07-04-07, 04:09 AM	I didn't say she had jurisdiction over the high magic ritual itself, merely the energy drawn by the ritual via the Weave. Yes, I know, I'm splitting hairs here, but discussing anything divine is splitting hairs, so to speak. And how is that different from all other magic? Technically what you just said can be applied to all spells. So does that mean that Mystra in reality has no juristicion about magic itself but only about the energy? It seems so. And Mystra is not a human god. She (or at least the position of god of magic/weave) is far older than humans or elves. That the position of Mystra was filled by the human is because the FR is in the end very human centric (with a big minority of elf lovers).
MarkusTay63 07-04-07, 04:42 AM	#1, and I reiterate, anything that has not been specifically changed in 3e still exists in 3e, thats the OFFICIAL ruling. Also, the Weave isn't the source, the weave is Mystra - she's just the middleman. You can access magic without using the Weave (The Shadow Weave is only one example). #2, Mystra IS a human god, because she is not a member of any non-human pantheon! It doesn't matter that her 2nd AND 3rd incarnations were human, I'm not even talking about that. Her Avatar takes human form - why would the original have done that back when the Sarrukh were doing all the magic, or when the Elves came around? I doubt there even was a weave back in the days of Thunder. She probably 'booted-up' Weave 1.0 the first time someone screwed up in a major way (probably Imaskar), and has been patching it with regular updates ever since (Karsus's Folly = Weave 2.0), and after the ToT we have 3.0 (might even be 3.5 ;) ). The Weave doesn't 'allow' magic, it controls the flow. It is basically just a stop-gap to keep mortals from harnassing energies they can't handle.
Derren S. 07-04-07, 04:49 AM	It is basically just a stop-gap to keep mortals from harnassing energies they can't handle. Which includes elves. And they have screwed up more than any other mortal race (or tied with the Netherese). Still they are allowed to use their destructive, unpredictable magic (or just because evil magic if those big rituals worked as intended) because <add explanation. I can't think of any except elf fanboydom>
Boda 07-04-07, 07:04 AM	Boda, what is the dominant alignment of the Gold Elves? Hmm?? Do you even know? No Boda, no-one ever gets past their birth and they always follow the strictures of their ancestors to the tee. :rolleyes: I believe "Paragons of Evil" wouldn't quite be something a mortal is born into. Graz'zt is a Paragon of Evil. Drow, goblins, ogres and even Red Dragons are far from "Paragons of Evil". At least to start out with.;) Well, I would say less expected, and probably more dangerous, but no more evil than the troop of Gloom I'm sending your way. :devil: Yes, yes it is. Thanks for the visual aid. By the way, check out this link. http://dictionary.reference.com/ Might come in handy with all those elfs and their reinging. Yes, i do know. Do you know on what post i was replying to? Aparently, they do since elfs are assumed by default to be good. That wasnt my statement. So if they arent evil by default, killing them on that assumption is...? ooohhh, i so dread the gloom. Thank you.
Boda 07-04-07, 07:23 AM	-Elitism is a trait of those who are superior to others. -Incorrect. I'll explain this as best as I can, and hopefully you'll get it. It is a bit complicated. Are you familiar with the Nature versus Nurture argument? If not, here it is a very brief nutshell. A being is born with a preset way of behavior (Nature), or is born with a tabula rasa (blank slate), and it taught how to behave (Nurture). -Elves are creatures that are born with a tabula rasa. Elven society teaches young Elflings how to act. Thus, since the majority of Elven society is Chaotic Good, the majority of Elves are going to be Chaotic Good. Some groups of Elves are taught to be more respectful of tradition than others. These Elves (Sun Elves) are going to be more law oriented. Other groups of Elves are taught that being evil is what is accepted(Drow), and these Elves are going to be evil. -Other creatures are not born with a tabula rasa. There is something in their very being that tells them how to behave. Demons, for example, are Chaotic Evil, pure and simple. Their very essence causes them to behave in a chaotic and evil manner. Devils are Lawful Evil. Their very nature tells them to behave in a lawful and evil manner. -Choice or no choice, evil is still evil, and needs to be snuffed out, does it not? -Perhaps. There are a lot of variables in the situation, though, that prevents us from saying a definite yes or no. For example, a Aquatic Elf who becomes evil to the core, but can't really manifest any of that hostility, is obviously not as dangerous as the Ancient Red Wyrm that kidnaps princess' and razes farming villages for fun. Superior or those that think they are? I do get it. Note that my statement was a question regarding others opinion. The little ''?'' in the end was suppose to reflect that. I do agree with the ''nurture'' pespective. Then again, i not the one that assumes a elf as good, and a chromatic dragon as evil. Of course, devils and demons are suppose to evil, since they are embodiments of it. Again i didnt mention them in the discussion. Sure, if your good. But destroying someone because you assume it's nature, isnt that a ''evil'' to start with? If someone killed Drizzt, many would see it as fighting evil (since drow are assumed to be evil), but he isnt actually. True. My point is that a tool is hardly in the same rank as a source. If you would consider all beholders as evil ( by default), then they wouldnt actually have a choice, so the responsability for the evil deeds they commit would hardly be the same of a creature that isnt ''evil'' by default, and choose to be so?
Zsych 07-04-07, 08:19 AM	Regarding High Magic, I think that if Mystra wants to grant it to someone, she doesn't need Corellon's consent for that. It is my opinion at least, that she can replicate all magic that has ever been done using the Weave.
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 08:20 AM	If Shadow Weave magic must go through the Weave, then that just doesn't make sense. It has also been established that Pluma (Hishna? I always get them mixed up) magic doesn't draw on the weave at all. ? Not sure where you got that. Magic drawn via the Shadow Weave, psionic manifestations, pluma magic, and table magic are known methods of harnessing magic without using the Weave, and as such Mystra has no power to deny or allow them. And how is that different from all other magic? Technically what you just said can be applied to all spells. So does that mean that Mystra in reality has no juristicion about magic itself but only about the energy? It seems so. Let's see, yes, I suppose it can be applied to all spells that do not draw upon the Weave if one desires that. Despite being in her portfolio, like Magic, her portfolio sense only works for the spells that draw energy from the Weave. It's a wee bit of a conundrum isn't it? If High Magic draws upon the Weave, then how can I say Mystra doesn't have jurisidiction over the ritual? Easy, I didn't say she didn't have jurisidiction, but neither did I say that she did. I left it open. I merely reiterated that she has jurisdiction over the energy the ritual draws via the Weave. The nearest way I can think of it even semi-working with game rules (and not personal desire to discredit one group over another) is that despite High Magic being merely an elven term for Epic Magic, it is still the elven tradition of epic magic, which Corellon holds sway over. Mystra does not have divine fiat over magical traditions. Like Velsharoon or Savras, Corellon is a god of a specific idea/tradition/school/category/methodology of magic, rather than of magic itself.
Zsych 07-04-07, 08:23 AM	What are pluma and table magic?
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 08:25 AM	What are pluma and table magic? Obscure traditions of magic never mentioned in published sources, only in Ed's Replies (as far as I know) that do not draw upon the Weave.
Zsych 07-04-07, 08:26 AM	So these are strange things that run on raw magic?
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 08:28 AM	So these are strange things that run on raw magic? Unknown what the source is. They may draw upon raw magic directly, or the magical energies present in living people, or the personal energy imbued into physical objects, or any number of things. We simply don't know.
Zsych 07-04-07, 08:32 AM	Ahh... need more soul magic... or pure faith magic that isn't quite clerical in nature(humans who have mastered the power of faith and use it to manipulate reality.. the same power that creates gods in human hands :P) ... gods reactions to something like that could be funny.
boards 07-04-07, 09:12 AM	Obscure traditions of magic never mentioned in published sources, only in Ed's Replies (as far as I know) that do not draw upon the Weave. Wasn't pluma magic mentioned in the Maztica source books?
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 09:16 AM	Why would such a human concept like Mystra be able to control forces that were around long before she was? The whole system is fundamentally flawed. The Sarrukh, Batarchi, and Aaerie would have laughed at her. Given that the Nether Scrolls hold information on how magic interacts with the Weave, how to manipulate the Weave, the processes involved in the creation and destruction of Dead and Wild Magic zones within the Weave, etc, I think it's a safe bet that the Weave existed during the Days of Thunder when the Nether Scrolls were first created. Mystryl may very well have been the human interpretation and understanding of the entity that embodies the Weave.
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 09:16 AM	Wasn't pluma magic mentioned in the Maztica source books? It may have been. I've no clue. I've never read any of the Maztican sourcebooks.
XHereticX 07-04-07, 09:30 AM	Ahh... need more soul magic... or pure faith magic that isn't quite clerical in nature(humans who have mastered the power of faith and use it to manipulate reality.. the same power that creates gods in human hands :P) ... gods reactions to something like that could be funny. Well, there are always the Shugenju.
MarkusTay63 07-04-07, 12:25 PM	Given that the Nether Scrolls hold information on how magic interacts with the Weave, how to manipulate the Weave, the processes involved in the creation and destruction of Dead and Wild Magic zones within the Weave, etc, I think it's a safe bet that the Weave existed during the Days of Thunder when the Nether Scrolls were first created. Mystryl may very well have been the human interpretation and understanding of the entity that embodies the Weave.You've READ the Nether Scrolls?! :uh-huh: You don't really think your Karsus, do you? :confused: Re-read the section in LEoF on the Nether Scrolls - the Weave isn't mentioned once. They use the term 'magic' at least a dozen times, and things like 'magical Insight' and 'deep understanding'; that sounds an awful like like PURE Magic to me. It was Karsus's study of the Nether Scrolls that allowed him to create Heavy Magic, which is Mana in its pure, unrestrained form, and Mystra has no say over anything that bypasses the Weave. Never heard of of Table Magic, but Pluma (and Hishna) are two traditions of magic in Maztica. There is absolutely, positively no connection in source between the magic of Wu-jen (Kara-Tur) and Mystra. Wu-jen are required to give up things (make sacrifices) to access magic, which implies older, more primitive traditions. Besides, the Weave really doesn't fit the Oriental culture. I'm not saying it isn't present in K-T, but I doubt the natives use it. They were interlopers from another plane, and had their own magical traditions long before they ever came to Abeir-Toril with it's 'Weave'. Like I keep saying, Mystra's church just has good PR guys. There is plenty of proof in source that she is NOT the only game in town. Her Weave is exactly like a computer interface (Windows), and Mystra is just FR's Bill Gates. By making it easy for the masses to access magic, most folks have given up other tradfitions. Its a systematic take-over by Mystra's church for aeons to make her the ONLY god of magic, and her plan is working. The Creation Myths are called 'Myths' for a reason. ;)
Drew1369r 07-04-07, 02:06 PM	#1, and I reiterate, anything that has not been specifically changed in 3e still exists in 3e, thats the OFFICIAL ruling. And again I reiterate, FOR THOSE OF US WITHOUT THE GOD DAMN SOURCE BOOKS, wtf are we supposed to do unless its a free download... all I have is is 3.x books so unless its a free download quit spouting off these stupid rules.
MarkusTay63 07-04-07, 03:45 PM	Choosing which rules to argue about doesn't help the situation, and limits the arguments to only about 10% of available lore. MOST of FR lore was 2e. And besides, my take on how Mystra doesn't really control magic as much as her clergy professes has very little to do with the subject of Elven hubris. One last thing - As far as I am concerned, Corellon, NOT Mystra, is the conduit used by Elven High Magic. He might give a nod to Mystra as a mater of professional curtesy, but I get the feeling that if Corellon needed to accomplish something that was at odds to Mystra, we would find out just how much control she really has. After all, he can just gate all his worshippers to an Elf world and do whatever the hell he wants with them, then send them back. The fact that he has a presence in nearly every single sphere and she is limited to one gives him so much more power on the inter-planar level. I already proved that Drow are really the Good Elves in another thread, and Gold Elves the Evil ones. If the Dark Elves hadn't taken on Aryvadaar that evil empire would have ruled the world and put every human to the sword or enslaved them. That is why the Gold and Moon Elves banished them - they were the only defense an innocent planet had against Elven tyranny. Thats it, I'm done with this.
Stigger 07-04-07, 04:04 PM	Well, you could head over to a place like drivethruRPG or something and get a hold of PDF copies of those old tomes... barring that, suck it up and defer to those who have the old lore here and do what you want at home. ;) :D
XHereticX 07-04-07, 05:48 PM	And again I reiterate, FOR THOSE OF US WITHOUT THE GOD DAMN SOURCE BOOKS, wtf are we supposed to do unless its a free download... all I have is is 3.x books so unless its a free download quit spouting off these stupid rules. 1. Be civil please. 2. I don't have the old stuff either, besides the stuff on this site http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads enjoy:D 3. I am on a budget, so I try looking at free sites with lots of info like Candlekeep and keep my realmslore in check. Plus, if you look real hard, you might be able to find some of those 2nd edition sourcebooks lying around online illegally;) (I found one of those)
Lord Karsus 07-04-07, 06:53 PM	ALL magic is overseen by the Weave incarnation, no exception. -As has been mentioned, there are quite a few "versions" of magic that do not utilize the Weave. WW II is an exception. -Why's that? Elitism is a trait of those who think they are superior to others -If you want, but it is a trait of those who are superior. Here's an example: Humans are superior creatures to rabbits. We think, we create, we destroy, we dominate. Thus, we have no problem paving over a field to create a mall. As for high elven magic not being harmful to the Weave. I suspect that all magic, and especially all powerful magic, puts a strain on the Weave, and Mystra brings in magic from the surrounding areas to support the magic needs of an area(to a certain degree). I suppose High elven magic is likely to be much more rare than the 10+ magic the Netherese were using, since few elves know it, and they don't actually use it in their regular lives. -Epic Magic, which is what Elven High Magic currently is, is not harmful to the Weave. This is why Mystra allows it, and not True 10+ Level spells. This is explained by the fact that Epic Magic has mitigating factors, and what not. True 10+ Level Magic was a "simple" spell that made the Weave take the brunt of the hit. Epic Magic causes the wielder to accrue penalties, meaning that the caster takes the hit that would normally harm the Weave. Except, of course, he's not correct, at least not in the manner I think you're interpreting. -Thank you. I was about to say...I always know myself! ;) The shadow weave is the space between the weave itself and Mystra has absolutly NO control over the shadow weave... -Using abstract thought, the Shadow Weave should crumble if the Weave crumbled. Spaces in the Weave cannot exist without the Weave. I think that might have already been disproved, though...I'm not sure. I have no idea what this Pluma or Hishna magic is so if it ain't published in 3.x ed it doesn't exist to those of us that have no earlier versions so why is it even being discussed... Sorry for the vent but its getting stupid with all the "well in the 1st ed grey box it says this or in 2nd ed it says this" SOME OF US DON'T HAVE THOSE!!! And again I reiterate, FOR THOSE OF US WITHOUT THE GOD DAMN SOURCE BOOKS, wtf are we supposed to do unless its a free download... all I have is is 3.x books so unless its a free download quit spouting off these stupid rules.[/QUOTE] -That doesn't change the fact that everything in 2e is canon. And Mystra is not a human god. She (or at least the position of god of magic/weave) is far older than humans or elves. -See Markus' response. Also note, it is as long as you believe that particular creation myth. It isn't necessarily true. Superior or those that think they are? -See above a few paragraphs. Sure, if your good. But destroying someone because you assume it's nature, isnt that a ''evil'' to start with? If someone killed Drizzt, many would see it as fighting evil (since drow are assumed to be evil), but he isnt actually. -If he was killed by a stereotypical Orc, said stereotypical Orc would have been fighting evil. ;) Obscure traditions of magic never mentioned in published sources, only in Ed's Replies (as far as I know) that do not draw upon the Weave. -Pluma (Feather) and Hishna (Talon) are two forms of magic practiced in Maztica. Pluma Magic seems to be dependent on Qotal, the Feathered Dragon deity. Hishna Magic seems to be dependent on Zaltec, the War deity. barring that, suck it up and defer to those who have the old lore here... -If only more people defered to those who know what they're talking about. ;)
boards 07-04-07, 07:01 PM	I am on a budget, so I try looking at free sites with lots of info like Candlekeep and keep my realmslore in check. Plus, if you look real hard, you might be able to find some of those 2nd edition sourcebooks lying around online illegally;) (I found one of those) Actually there is rather a large amount of 2nd edition books that can be found illegally on the net, but as I am rather Lawful I wont say were they are:D
421 07-04-07, 07:46 PM	it is a trait of those who are superior. Could you define "superior" MOST of FR lore was 2e. Quite true, C:EoE p126 "Like many forces, High Magic is both one thing and many. In its fullest essence, High Magic is the direct energy of the Weave, the web of energy that sustains the planet’s life (and that of every living being upon it) and provides the source of magic for both wizards and High Mages. Whereas wizardly magic pulls an infinitesimal bit of energy out of the Weave to harness its effects, High Magic maintains the Weave but redirects and manipulates the local flow of energy to achieve the effects of the ritual. Three types of High Magic rituals are known, all of which tap the Weave, but each draws upon a different level of power, as shown by the number of casters." High Magic tap the weave, Mystra control the weave ergo Mystra control High Magic.
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 10:11 PM	You've READ the Nether Scrolls?! Actually, yes I have. I have read everything, and I do mean everything (that is publicly possible in the current day, and even some of the non-possible stuff by Ed), as it pertains to the Nether Scrolls. I do not claim to be a god of it, but I, in my own knowledge of that which I have read, do claim to be an expert on the matters pertaining to the Nether Scrolls. If you wish to dispute this claim, please provide counter evidence (which will be easy. Lore is full of holes to abuse!:) ). Everything I stated in the post that you responded to is rather easiliy discovered in CEoE, all within 2 to 3 pages. If you have trouble with my claim, I will, as soon as I wake up tomorrow from this horrible hangover, provide you with exact quotes and page numbers:P You don't really think your Karsus, do you? You made a mistake. It's you're, not your. Even in jest, that's not something I take as a funny:P LK likes it tho'! go bug him with it!:P Considering since from the time I was 2 years old (my earliest memories) I desired to be the master of my own destiny (I threw off Christianity and my own mother's will) and to, in effect, be a god (in the actual sense, of my choosing), I find an utterly weird and almost hypocritical connection to the imaginary Karsus. Even my own brother used to call me Raistlin as an insult. My only benefit is that I'm capable of comprehending stupidity within stupidity. In other words, Duh what:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: Re-read the section in LEoF on the Nether Scrolls - the Weave isn't mentioned once. Read the section of the Nether Scrolls in CEoE. Also, read the section on the Nether Scrolls in NEoM. Since their Lore hasn't been overruled, it's still valid. They use the term 'magic' at least a dozen times, and things like 'magical Insight' and 'deep understanding'; that sounds an awful like like PURE Magic to me. It was Karsus's study of the Nether Scrolls that allowed him to create Heavy Magic, which is Mana in its pure, unrestrained form, and Mystra has no say over anything that bypasses the Weave. First, there's nothing that suggests Karsus used the Nether Scrolls to discover heavy magic, especially given the dates. There's a good chance that at best he had access to 19 scrolls. That means only 1 full chapter, and 9 pages of another, at best. And also, despite what the RotA trilogy character Melegaunt (who was wrong in everything else he said) Heavy Magic is not "true magic". Heavy magic is perfectly detailed in the NEoM. It is a liquidized form of magic, that can be enspelled, and the effects of such spell can be painted or daubed onto any surface. Never heard of of Table Magic, but Pluma (and Hishna) are two traditions of magic in Maztica. There is absolutely, positively no connection in source between the magic of Wu-jen (Kara-Tur) and Mystra. I wouldn't know, as I haven't read either source. Wu-jen are required to give up things (make sacrifices) to access magic, which implies older, more primitive traditions. Besides, the Weave really doesn't fit the Oriental culture. I'm not saying it isn't present in K-T, but I doubt the natives use it. They were interlopers from another plane, and had their own magical traditions long before they ever came to Abeir-Toril with it's 'Weave'. Why wouldn't they use it? It's present in throughout Toril. Just because they don't KNOW they're using it doesn't mean they're NOT using it. The Elves had their own traditions long before they came to toril, but even their most sacred of tradtions requires the Weave, while in Realmspace. Like I keep saying, Mystra's church just has good PR guys. Yes she does. Rather sad I think, that such a deity requires such, but eh, I'm a mere mortal. There is plenty of proof in source that she is NOT the only game in town. She's not the only game in town. Sadly, she's the one that most decide to gamble with:P Her Weave is exactly like a computer interface (Windows), and Mystra is just FR's Bill Gates. By making it easy for the masses to access magic, most folks have given up other tradfitions. Its a systematic take-over by Mystra's church for aeons to make her the ONLY god of magic, and her plan is working. Which is precisely what anyone would do. You blame bill gates for taking advantage of those who are easily taken advantage of for his own benfit? Bleh. Next time don't be so gullable then. If my neighbors were even more stupid than they are, I'd certainly take advatange of it for my own benfit. It has nothing to do with personal preference. The Creation Myths are called 'Myths' for a reason. Yes they are, your point? When facts back up myth, myth is still a myth, but it's no less false because of it. I should prolly sober up...it's been over a week since my last beer:P
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 10:31 PM	And again I reiterate, FOR THOSE OF US WITHOUT THE GOD DAMN SOURCE BOOKS, wtf are we supposed to do unless its a free download... all I have is is 3.x books so unless its a free download quit spouting off these stupid rules. And I'm sorry about it. It's unfortunate, but you'll find people citing previous editions (including me!), without actually posting the exact wording they're claiming. My only advice is to ignore them, as I found out some months ago, certain people, for whatever reason, feel their opinion is fact, and refuse to post actual citations that may contradict what they proclaim.
MarkusTay63 07-04-07, 11:25 PM	Sorry, I can't read C:EoE - I've tried... I really have, but its so 'Elfocentric' it makes me ill. Maybe I'll read the part containing the Nether Scrolls tonight, just to see the older version. Then I'll need a drink. ;) The thing I don't understand is, if an Elven High Magic ritual can be cast outside of Realmspace, then it should not depend on the weave. So, the only way I can rectify that is that OUTSIDE of Realmspace the traditions DO require supplications to Corellon, who in turn (as God of Elven Magic) grants. Within Realmspace, Corellon is required by Ao to defer to Mystra on all things magical. I am sure they have some sort of 'private arrangement' concerning this, but it appears that she pretty much gives him free reign on most Elven Magical matters, and in turn he probably helps her maintain the Weave. That part isn't canon, but I'm trying to make some sense of all this. So, as far as the Elves are concerned, nothing has changed, but on a cosmic scale anything over 9th level Corellon has to look to Mystra, and in most cases she just nods her head and lets it fly. To the Elves, they beseeched Corellon, and he responded, end of story. Now, to take this one step further, the ancient Elven traditions are used to handling pure magic without the Weave, but with Corellons help. Now they cast the same spells and perform the same rituals, but they are going through the much easier interface of the Weave, which requires less power to achieve its effects. Add in that Corellon is still giving the spell a little 'push', and BAM! Instant Sundering, Tidal Wave, Dark Disaster, etc... All of a sudden its like the Incredible Hulk trying to sip champaign out of a fine crystal goblet. In a way, Mystra propably knows that the older rituals applied to the new weave will create over-powered effects (ie, disasters), which she considers a 'learning experience' for the Elves. She doesn't want them to rely on their old Magic, she wants them dependent on Torilian brand magic, and her. Since there have been relatively very few High Magic rituals performed since the Elves arrived (less then a hundred?), it seems to me that they would only use one , given the risk, in the direst circumstances. If you take one hundred seperate rituals and spread them over 26,000+ years, it makes it kind of hard for the learning process to kick in. You would think that Corellon would have caught on to the whole thing, and stopped lending his aid OR warned his priesthood to develop less powerful rituals for the Weave. However, he is either too pre-occupied with everything else going on running the Elven Pantheon, or (more likely), he is one of those 'pretty boys' who has more looks then brains. Looking back at some of his past decisions, its hard to believe he's a 'deep thinker'. :P
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 11:45 PM	Then I'll need a drink. Intoxication has led me to personal enlightenment and insight into FR:D As in, one must be completely drunk to make logical sense out of the vast majority of it's inner workings:embarrass And that suits me just fine:cool: Makes it more real that way;)
Lady Rolindin 07-05-07, 12:44 AM	Zsych from page 2: Whereas, the Netherese for the most part(I think), didn't create widely destructive magic. Focussing more on their shiny new magical TVs, instead of creating large scale magical nukes(even if there was some level of competition between Archmages, I don't think anyone was actually trying to even drop the other guy's enclave). Yes the Netehril did, Karsus did this twice. One disappeard into who knows where. Karsus chased Dabloum or made them go into another dimesion, the other city he destroyed. The Netheril were just as bad in some ways as the elfs, they had their beliefs also and killed alot of different races. They even fought against the elfs. Witch race was worse in their beliefs, hard to say. But alot of elfs have matured, while the Shadavar shadow lord really hasen't. He still holds the old believes and has his old palns by the books to reclaim and rebuild a new Netheril. I just hope the Shadovar shadow lord does do what Karsus did and destroy any new floating cities made (once he does make a new Netheril), that **** him off.
sages 07-05-07, 06:16 AM	-If you want, but it is a trait of those who are superior. Here's an example: Humans are superior creatures to rabbits. We think, we create, we destroy, we dominate. Thus, we have no problem paving over a field to create a mall. Who knows maybe rabbits are evil beings with far superior intelligence and understanding.Maybe they are just waiting for the right moment to enslave humans and other inferior creatures. In Monty Python and the holy grail they show their true power. (Do not mention rabbits any more because it will draw their sinister attention). :incog:
BrennonGoldeye 07-05-07, 02:53 PM	Rabbits! Rabbits! Tauric Kobold Were-Rabbits!! Muh-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha!!! Flopity-wopity-doom upon you all!!!! :evillaugh
Lord Karsus 07-05-07, 06:41 PM	Sorry, I can't read C:EoE - I've tried... I really have, but its so 'Elfocentric' it makes me ill. -That's sad. Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves was one of the best 2e sourcebooks- not just because it was "Elfocentric", but just because of the detail and depth the product had. The thing I don't understand is, if an Elven High Magic ritual can be cast outside of Realmspace, then it should not depend on the weave. -It depends on whatever the source of magic is in the current Crystalsphere, it seems.
Alediran 07-05-07, 07:35 PM	This was supposed to be posted last monday. But all boards were blocked in my work. @Eladrinstar: You aren't taking into account the noble MOON ELF families who lived in Myth Drannor before the opening, the Staryms and other families who went against Coronal Eltargrim, a SUN ELF, and The Shrinshee, originaly a SUN ELF, who were the ones that wanted to open Cormanthyr to N'Tel'Quess. Those same MOON ELF families that fought against Eltargrim where the ones who created the Eldreth Veluutra, the famous supremacionist elven organization, where SUN ELVES are the minority. The same Staryms had a SUN ELF, named Josidiah Starym who became the last Spell-Major of Cormathyr by his own merith, finding the lost Ary'Faern Kerym and wielding it. While the MOON ELF Starym who stole Josidiah's position of patron in the Myth Drannar Staryms corrupted his Moonblade with the help of Moander because if he didn't do that he would've died when drawing it. So, where are the good moon elves and the bad sun elves here? For those who talked about Myth Drannor's history you can find a downloadable copy of my work on it in the Elven Netbook thread. It tells the story of Cormathor from the creation of the Elfblades until the Last Flight during the Weeping War. And I want to be clear, there wasn't only one reason for the Fall of Myth Drannor. All began with Eltargrim's passing to Arvandor, the first cause was that no worthy heir of Eltargrim drawed the Crownblade, the only one who could have done it was Eltargrim's niece, Aravae, but she was murdered by the same MOON ELF Starym (yes, the Fall of Myth Drannor was started by a MOON ELF) that corrupted his blade, he is the one who must be most punished for the Fall of Myth Drannor, because the abscence of a good leader who could continue Eltargrim's work was the reason that Myth Drannor weakened so much when the Khov'Annilesa (the Trio Nefarious, the three Nicaloths summoned by a Netherese wizard, again the Netherese destroying the work of elves) returned from their long imprisonment. Alumpiter and his companions worked well, even for lower planes fiends. They reunited a force of tens of thousands of orcs, ogres, gnolls, goblinoids and other 'loths to attack Myth Drannor in a war known as the Weeping War that lasted for almost two years. And while at the begining the elves where the ones who fought the Army of Darkness, when the war came to the streets of Myth Drannor the N'Tel'Quess people of Myth Drannor fought side by side with the elves, becoming one tempered blade of light that struck the Army of Darkness with terrible precision. In the end, the Army of Darkness, won by sheer numbers, if the Cormanthyrians where the ones who won that war you would see the most unified nation of all Faerūn. BTW, The Mythal was corrupted by the corrupting presence of the lower planes fiends, they caused tha malfunction.
Karsus the Mad 07-05-07, 07:45 PM	Yes the Netehril did, Karsus did this twice. One disappeard into who knows where. Karsus chased Dabloum or made them go into another dimesion, the other city he destroyed. That's a bad way of thinking. Don't blame Netheril for the act of one particular nutcase. That's like saying ALL elves are evil bastards because of the Vyshaan Clan. That's a horribly incorrect view of things. Just because Karsus abused magic and destroyed, doesn't mean all of Netheril is guilty for it. Even the very spell description of Mavin's Create Volcano shows the overall responsibilty of Netheril, it explains that while destructive, Netheril refused to use it due to the potential destruction it could cause to Netheril's neighbors. The vast majority of Netheril, despite it's arrogance, was just as responsible for magic use as anyone else, including elves (which doesn't say much, for a reason).
XHereticX 07-05-07, 08:21 PM	Actually there is rather a large amount of 2nd edition books that can be found illegally on the net, but as I am rather Lawful I wont say were they are:D I know one site that does that, but its in German, so I have problems. Tell me plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (in PM). According to multiple alignment tests I'm either CN, CG, or TN, so I got no problem with it;)
MarkusTay63 07-06-07, 04:45 AM	I REALLY think this is the wrong place to be discussing this. You should take it to PMs, or try other boards like Enworld that would be happy to point you in the right direction. Then tell your friends, your neighbors, and everyone else in the world, and no one will have to BUY books... and then of course WotC will go out of business and we won't get anymore books... PERIOD. :ahem: I'm all for downloading bootleg music, because I could give a rat's ass if some pop star goes broke, but when you mess with D&D, you're messing with one of the few things that still brings me joy, and thats just not... nice. :allalone:
Lady Rolindin 07-06-07, 05:04 AM	Karsus The Mad: That's a bad way of thinking. Don't blame Netheril for the act of one particular nutcase. That's like saying ALL elves are evil bastards because of the Vyshaan Clan. That's a horribly incorrect view of things. Just because Karsus abused magic and destroyed, doesn't mean all of Netheril is guilty for it what I was doing was pointing out that Netheril did destroy some of their cities as Zysch was saying. That he didn't believe that the Netheril destroyed other enclaves. Thae fact is they did for waht every reason. The Netheril empire of magic dosen't go into why Karsus and another wizard destroyed they enclaves. WHo knows, maybe Karsus didn't like they way they smelled? He didn't like Dobloum because it turned into a Thiefing enclave, and they disappeared somewhere, thanks to Karsus. I don't think that way just pointed out a fact, and another enclave was destroyed by another wizard. I can look it up in Netheril Empire of magic and say who did, but why? Yes Karsus was a nut job, I agree. The elfs in the crown wars fought each other, just as the other races have in their past's. I just pointed out a fact about Karsus, I didn't judge him for his actions. I don't jundge the elfs for fighting each too in the crown wars, either. Why, because it part of the past. We are to understand the past, not judge it. And not too judge Who is right and wrong, nor their reason. Karsus and the elfs, didn't leave written accounts why they did such things anyway. Your character would have to use a time spell to fund out the resons, I personally don't want to know the resons, just the history. So no time travel for any of my characters, to question Karsus why he don't like this enclave and he like this one. The history is what matters.
RedGlacier 07-06-07, 07:28 PM	To get back on topic: No, I am not tired of stuck-up elves. Because making Sun Elves suddenly become an enlightened society of bunny-loving, human-embracing, all-around nice guys would just be... :yuck: (shivers) I mean come on! This is good old conflict-filled Faerun here! :ayyyy!: Not everyone-forgives-each-other, signs-a-global-peace-treaty, and learns-a-valuable-life-lesson-at-the-end-of-the-show CandyLand! And if you don't like it, your character can always travel the planes to give Corellon and Mystra a good talking to (I'll come too, of course, just to watch what they do to you afterwards. :P ) As for High Magic, why would you want to put a damper on such a great source of entertainment? Seriously. It's like an ecological-disaster movie just waiting to happen! Me, as long as there's a few moon elves willing to party with us humans, I ain't got nuthin' against elves! :pint:
XHereticX 07-06-07, 07:29 PM	what I was doing was pointing out that Netheril did destroy some of their cities as Zysch was saying. That he didn't believe that the Netheril destroyed other enclaves. Thae fact is they did for waht every reason. The Netheril empire of magic dosen't go into why Karsus and another wizard destroyed they enclaves. WHo knows, maybe Karsus didn't like they way they smelled? He didn't like Dobloum because it turned into a Thiefing enclave, and they disappeared somewhere, thanks to Karsus. I don't think that way just pointed out a fact, and another enclave was destroyed by another wizard. I can look it up in Netheril Empire of magic and say who did, but why? Yes Karsus was a nut job, I agree. The elfs in the crown wars fought each other, just as the other races have in their past's. I just pointed out a fact about Karsus, I didn't judge him for his actions. I don't jundge the elfs for fighting each too in the crown wars, either. Why, because it part of the past. We are to understand the past, not judge it. And not too judge Who is right and wrong, nor their reason. Karsus and the elfs, didn't leave written accounts why they did such things anyway. Your character would have to use a time spell to fund out the resons, I personally don't want to know the resons, just the history. So no time travel for any of my characters, to question Karsus why he don't like this enclave and he like this one. The history is what matters. Amen to that sista;) I coudn't have explained it better myself, just work on your spelling and grammar. People just tend to judge the nature of many based upon the actions of the few.
The Ubbergeek 07-07-07, 10:26 PM	To get back on topic: No, I am not tired of stuck-up elves. Because making Sun Elves suddenly become an enlightened society of bunny-loving, human-embracing, all-around nice guys would just be... :yuck: (shivers) I mean come on! This is good old conflict-filled Faerun here! :ayyyy!: Not everyone-forgives-each-other, signs-a-global-peace-treaty, and learns-a-valuable-life-lesson-at-the-end-of-the-show CandyLand! And if you don't like it, your character can always travel the planes to give Corellon and Mystra a good talking to (I'll come too, of course, just to watch what they do to you afterwards. :P ) As for High Magic, why would you want to put a damper on such a great source of entertainment? Seriously. It's like an ecological-disaster movie just waiting to happen! Me, as long as there's a few moon elves willing to party with us humans, I ain't got nuthin' against elves! :pint: No, but you DON'T have to follow the 'haughty elves' cliché everytime, gee,.... it's tiring and reducdant. How about humble elves, for once?
Azameth22 07-08-07, 12:06 AM	an easy solution is to get rid of humans - the most boring "fantasy" race ever, imo. I personally think Humans are great in almost any setting. I love playing human arcane spellcasters because it is a PC that is like us but can also be more. It allows you to really use your imagination. Netheril is one of my favorite concepts as a whole in FR because it was humans at the absolute peak of their exsistance, but they were brought down by arrogance and greed. (how life like). Also, many of the other races tend to have very cliche attitudes and behaviors. Haughty, arrogant Sun Elves; boisterous, loud, drunken, bearded dwarves; sneaky, theiving halflings, tinkering, intelligent, but air-headed gnomes. Although its great to see members of these races without these traits, they do tend to appear ALOT. I love Humans in RPGs because they are almost always discribed as very versatile. I can be whatever I want. And lastly I think that all fantasy worlds need aspects to connect them to the real world and make them believable. An author could just as easily make a world that has no humans and a completely different climate and have 40 hour days and 1000 day years etc, etc. but how well would we really except something that we couldn't relate to at all.
captaincarot 07-08-07, 02:23 AM	boisterous, loud, drunken, bearded dwarves yep that's us alright. as for the elves, if you can get them to extract their heads from their own special place that the sun don't shine they are actually very nice people. your human problem is by the time the elf has realised you exist, you don't anymore because you've grown old and died. heck we're boisterous loud drunken and live 4 times as long as you lot and we've only managed to get a few of em annoyed at the noise from the party next door.
XHereticX 07-09-07, 08:17 PM	yep that's us alright. as for the elves, if you can get them to extract their heads from their own special place that the sun don't shine they are actually very nice people. your human problem is by the time the elf has realised you exist, you don't anymore because you've grown old and died. heck we're boisterous loud drunken and live 4 times as long as you lot and we've only managed to get a few of em annoyed at the noise from the party next door. Brutes find courage at the bottom of a bottle of spirits;) I dislike dwarves because they are the only race that gets to be LN and drunken boors at the same time.:mad:
MarkusTay63 07-10-07, 02:07 AM	You haven't lived until you've 'done a Dwarf'. ;)
Lord Karsus 07-10-07, 02:29 AM	-I wish Merrik was subscribed to this thread. He'd have a good come-back to that line...
Green Elven Vampire 07-10-07, 04:14 AM	Brutes find courage at the bottom of a bottle of spirits;) I dislike dwarves because they are the only race that gets to be LN and drunken boors at the same time.:mad: Then maybe you don't know how to play a dwarf PC or played with someone who knows how to play a Dwarf. They can be as mischievous as any halfling, gnome or elf.
The_Shaman 07-10-07, 04:26 AM	You haven't lived until you've 'done a Dwarf'. ;) What, you mean then you just want to lay down and die? :P As for elves... well, if my chars see a boor, they see a boor. Most of them - with a few notable exceptions - react in a similar way to arrogant lovechilds of all races.
Khaelieth 07-10-07, 08:45 AM	To get back on topic: No, I am not tired of stuck-up elves. Because making Sun Elves suddenly become an enlightened society of bunny-loving, human-embracing, all-around nice guys would just be... :yuck: (shivers) I mean come on! This is good old conflict-filled Faerun here! :ayyyy!: Imagine a sun elf Drizzt. *Spasms*
Lord Karsus 07-10-07, 10:52 AM	Imagine a sun elf Drizzt. *Spasms* -That made me think of Anakin Skywalker, for whatever reason.
MarkusTay63 07-10-07, 03:29 PM	You must be thinking of the "Arakin Skywalker" (see the ToC in the K-T thread). ;) I have no idea what that is yet, but I just couldn't resist. :D
Lord Karsus 07-10-07, 05:28 PM	You must be thinking of the "Arakin Skywalker" (see the ToC in the K-T thread). ;) I have no idea what that is yet, but I just couldn't resist. :D -Hmm...He must be the 'Chosin' One! :rimshot:
MarkusTay63 07-11-07, 02:41 AM	Well, you know what he used to say - "I never met-a-chlorin I didn't like". This is just getting bad... ;)
Zsych 07-11-07, 03:13 AM	@LK: What exactly makes you think that epic magic has no harmful effect on the Weave? I've never seen anything suggesting that. Mitigating factors don't change anything. You yourself don't need to take the brunt of the magic, and even if you do, that's mostly a side-effect. In lore terms as opposed to stats, I'd think an epic spell that harmed the user as being something unstable or beyond his control where he hadn't worked the kinks out, or simply wasn't capable of it.... Doesn't mean the amount of magic being used is less, or that its side-effects are lesser. Like the elven spell that destroyed Jhaamdath, it was basically a very powerful spell that went out of control. It was the pure power they (mainly the central caster) unleashed and then couldn't manage that was the problem. The power cost to the Weave must've been much the same as a 10th level spell.. maybe even more.
Wizardman 07-11-07, 06:04 AM	Imagine a sun elf Drizzt. *Spasms* In a way, we already have one. His name is Kymil Nimesin. Before anyone starts questioning my sanity, let me explain. Drizzt, for all that he embodies certain drow traits (their perfectionism, their chaotic nature, their profound religiosity), is in fact the "perversion" of everything that they hold dear. So it is with Kymil Nimesin. He is both a skilled fighter and a skilled mage. He is very much a perfectionist. He is also quite honourable, in his way. That said, he is the perversion of everything that they hold dear. He would stop at nothing to achieve his ideal elven society, including forming alliances with humans and drow, despoiling Evermeet, and striking out at the Chosen of the Seldarine, whom an overwhelming majority of elves view as akin to a demi-goddess. He has willingly sold himself to Lloth herself, and set the Ityak-Ortheel at his own people. There are quite a few sun elves who are manifestly not bigoted, but remain every bit an Ar'Tel'Quess. Eltargrim and Aravae Irithyl are examples, as is the lady Oluevaera Estelda. Symrustar Auglamyr (after her attitude adjustment) is another. Araevin Teshurr serves as a more contemporary example.
The_Shaman 07-11-07, 09:15 AM	Wait a minute. I've read only a few Salvatore novels (the original trilogy and Legacy), but Drizzt did NOT strike me as overly religious, at least for the Realms. After all, pretty much everyone there knows gods DO exist. I can agree with some of the rest, though.
Wizardman 07-11-07, 05:33 PM	He talks about his faith more in Starless Night and Siege of Darkness. He doesn't wear it on his sleeve, but he feels it very deeply.
MarkusTay63 07-11-07, 05:38 PM	He's a dark Elf worshipping a Finnish god - he has serious issues and needs a therapist. ;)
Alediran 07-11-07, 06:05 PM	He's a dark Elf worshipping a Finnish god - he has serious issues and needs a therapist. ;) Actually it makes more sense than if Drizzt worshipped Artemisa.
Lord Karsus 07-11-07, 07:11 PM	@LK: What exactly makes you think that epic magic has no harmful effect on the Weave? I've never seen anything suggesting that. Mitigating factors don't change anything. You yourself don't need to take the brunt of the magic, and even if you do, that's mostly a side-effect. -There is nothing to suggest that it is harmful on the weave either. -The fact that the caster takes the brunt of the harmful effects of the spell suggests that it is this is the raw power that was what made True 10+ Level magic harmful to the weave. Why would Mystra allow Epic Magic to exist, but not True 10+ Level magic? The only difference between the two, really, is all of those mitigating factors, and all that jazz. Epic Magic causes the caster to sap and damage him/herself. True 10+ Level Magic caused the caster to sap and damage the Weave. @Doesn't mean the amount of magic being used is less, or that its side-effects are lesser. The power cost to the Weave must've been much the same as a 10th level spell.. maybe even more. -I never said that Epic Magic is less powerful than True 10+ Level magic. Epic Magic is an equal to this method of casting, but more convoluted.
BrennonGoldeye 07-11-07, 08:58 PM	-I never said that Epic Magic is less powerful than True 10+ Level magic. Epic Magic is an equal to this method of casting, but more convoluted. Thus the workings of the Weave are more spread out, and the consequences of damage as well. Karsus Avatar would be much less tenable under the present system of Mystra's Chosen, even without the Ban.
boards 07-11-07, 11:10 PM	There are quite a few sun elves who are manifestly not bigoted, but remain every bit an Ar'Tel'Quess. Eltargrim and Aravae Irithyl are examples, as is the lady Oluevaera Estelda. Symrustar Auglamyr (after her attitude adjustment) is another. Araevin Teshurr serves as a more contemporary example. Is Symrustar a sun elf? In EiMD she has royal blue hair, usually a moon elf trait.
Wizardman 07-12-07, 02:58 AM	Is Symrustar a sun elf? In EiMD she has royal blue hair, usually a moon elf trait. Cormanthyr lists her as a sun elf. It also lists the Srinshee as a sun elf, and she also has the blue hair (longer than she is tall). Correct me if I'm mistaken, but even though the Srinshee is usually listed as a gold elf in the crunch, the fluff holds that even she doesn't remember which subrace she was. I definitely remember reading that somewhere; perhaps in one of Ed's short stories?
Zsych 07-12-07, 06:44 AM	I doubt that Mystra actually cares about moderate damage to the Weave, and I do think that all strong magic puts a strain on the Weave, no matter who is doing it, or for what. Normally, magic from elsewhere can be rerouted to stablize the Weave in the strained area. --- And the reason for banning 10+ magic seems obvious... Fear of the people who used it. Fear of anyone else ever becoming that strong again. Epic magic may well face similar bans, if it causes similar trouble some day(although, with the way an epic spell can sorta work in a dead magic zone, perhaps such magic is not so easy for Mystra to ban, because it can perhaps draw power from elsewhere than just the Weave)
Derren S. 07-12-07, 06:54 AM	Epic magic may well face similar bans, if it causes similar trouble some day Epic magic did already cause similiar trouble when the elves used it to reshape Toril.
Zsych 07-12-07, 07:14 AM	That was in Mystryl's time. Mystryl didn't care. And Mystra as an ascended human was likely more afraid of someone managing to pull off another Karsus Avatar on her, than anything the elves could reasonably be expected to do. The Sundering too, was partly an accident. An unstable spell, not like the fully stable and controlled spell that Karsus could manage. ... Just brute force, by itself, isn't really something to be worried about very much. --- Although my impression is that originally, it was meant to be that: Humans were punished for their arrogance, the elves had their unique magic, which in a magical setting, made them seem more magical again than the humans... in other words magic that made them elves(which I think is actually meant to be a kind of cooler human). (the situation has changed some since 3E came in) Elven High magic wasn't really available to PCs before I think(so it didn't unbalance the game the way 10+ spells could unbalance the game, without limits since they'd be human spells), and epic magic just didn't exist in its current form in 2E.
Derren S. 07-12-07, 11:12 AM	The Sundering too, was partly an accident. An unstable spell, not like the fully stable and controlled spell that Karsus could manage. According to 2Ed sources, one of the intended functions of the Sundering ritual is to temporarily disrupt (destroy?) the weave toril wide when used with its full power.
Alediran 07-12-07, 07:37 PM	According to 2Ed sources, one of the intended functions of the Sundering ritual is to temporarily disrupt (destroy?) the weave toril wide when used with its full power. There is a difference between temporary stop and complete stealing of the Weave. Mystryl didn't care about the first, but she became very ****** off for the second.
Derren S. 07-13-07, 02:40 AM	Karsus Avatar also was temporary (6 hours I believe?) and would have killed Karsus after it expired.
Zsych 07-13-07, 02:43 AM	Off-topic: I think the death Karsus would've found at the end of the spell was the same one he found now. Without Mystryl's divinity attached to him, he was a god, but a god with no source of power and no worshippers. In other words, instant carcass on the astral plane :)
MarkusTay63 07-13-07, 03:17 AM	That should be the name of his autobiography - From Karsus to Carcass in 12 easy levels ;)
BrennonGoldeye 07-13-07, 07:07 AM	That should be the name of his autobigraphy - From Karsus to Carcass in 12 easy levels ;) :ahem:
boards 07-13-07, 05:45 PM	:rofl: Now that would be a cool book name LOL
MarkusTay63 07-13-07, 06:05 PM	:ahem::rofl: Don't feel bad BG, you could've picked a worse cult to join. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 07-13-07, 08:48 PM	:rofl: Don't feel bad BG, you could've picked a worse cult to join. ;) Coming from the true Master of "a worse cult" I will take that as a compliment.;)
Lord Karsus 07-13-07, 11:29 PM	Correct me if I'm mistaken, but even though the Srinshee is usually listed as a gold elf in the crunch, the fluff holds that even she doesn't remember which subrace she was. I definitely remember reading that somewhere; perhaps in one of Ed's short stories? -Somewhere along the line (LEoF, I believe), she was incorrectly mentioned as a Moon Elf. And, since the new canon "trumps" the old, she "officially" became a Moon Elf. Thanks to quick thinking by Ed in his short story from Realms of the Elves, the Srinshee revealed that she "transcended" the need to identify herself as Sun, Moon, or what not, and simply is an Elf. Some see her as a Sun, some see her as a Moon. I doubt that Mystra actually cares about moderate damage to the Weave, and I do think that all strong magic puts a strain on the Weave, no matter who is doing it, or for what. Normally, magic from elsewhere can be rerouted to stablize the Weave in the strained area. -Obviously she cares about the Weave, because she literally is the Weave. It is the duty of Mystra's priesthood (Or perhaps just one specific sect) to travel around and fix Dead/Wild Magic Zones -Again, it is canon fact that the powerful magics used during the Netheril-Phaerimm conflicts were taxing to the Weave, which is why Mystra eventually banned the use of such spells after her "birth". And the reason for banning 10+ magic seems obvious... Fear of the people who used it. Fear of anyone else ever becoming that strong again. -It was banned because of all of the taxation and pressure that it caused on the Weave during the wars between the Netherese and the Phaerimm. This is canon fact. Epic magic may well face similar bans, if it causes similar trouble some day(although, with the way an epic spell can sorta work in a dead magic zone, perhaps such magic is not so easy for Mystra to ban, because it can perhaps draw power from elsewhere than just the Weave) -This wouldn't happen, precisely because it draws power from things other than the Weave.
Zsych 07-14-07, 01:01 AM	... in other words, if Mystra was capable of completely banning epic magic, its likely that she would have. Anyway, the kind of strain 10+ put on the Weave, was likely the kind of strain any spell puts on the Weave. Mystryl handled it fine, and Mystra could have handled it if she had wanted to. She was afraid of future attacks by great mortals who could sidestep her divine power, as Karsus did.
XHereticX 07-14-07, 09:41 AM	:rofl: Don't feel bad BG, you could've picked a worse cult to join. ;) As one of the more violent and direct hands, :mage: :mage: :mage: :mage: Epic Magic probably does take a toll on the weave (since they are equivelent to lv 10 spells in power) Then again, High Magic dosen't directly draw from the weave anyway.
MarkusTay63 07-14-07, 01:37 PM	For Mystra, a High Magic Ritual OR Epic magic (levels 9½ and 9¾ :P ) is the equivalent of a human female's "Time of the Month". The other gods have learned to avoid her during those periods. ;)
Lord Karsus 07-14-07, 05:58 PM	... in other words, if Mystra was capable of completely banning epic magic, its likely that she would have. -Maybe, though I doubt it. Epic Magic doesn't/didn't unravel the Weave as fast as True 10+ Level Magic did. Mystryl handled it fine, and Mystra could have handled it if she had wanted to. -Mystryl did not handle it fine. Were she able to handle it fine, the Weave would not have been in such as "sorry" state when I/We cast Karsus' Avatar.
Zsych 07-14-07, 10:25 PM	1. There's no way to be sure that the harm to the Weave by epic magic is lesser than 10+ Just the fact that it draws on large quantities of magic, while not going through the Weave could disturb the Weave in that area. 2. The Weave wasn't in a sorry state. A lot of power was being drawn in certain areas, so power was being redirected from elsewhere to compensate. Typical power company situation. (of course, that's my opinion :P)
Lord Karsus 07-14-07, 10:53 PM	1. There's no way to be sure that the harm to the Weave by epic magic is lesser than 10+ Just the fact that it draws on large quantities of magic, while not going through the Weave could disturb the Weave in that area. -Yes there is. Again, Mystra placed a ban on 10+ Level Magic, which was severely draining to the Weave, and not Epic Magic, which was not severely draining to the Weave. 2. The Weave wasn't in a sorry state. A lot of power was being drawn in certain areas, so power was being redirected from elsewhere to compensate. Typical power company situation. -Again, yes it was. According to Netheril: Empire of Magic, "...the weave that Netheril and its glut of magic and the phaerimm with their magic drain spells constantly threatened to unravel." (Emphasis Mine) -Were the Weave not in a troubled state, it would not have been on the verge on unraveling. (of course, that's my opinion :P) -Exactly.
Zsych 07-15-07, 07:43 AM	It could just as well be about to unravel from people using 3rd level spells, if Mystra didn't bring magic around from elsewhere to support it. How do you know how much power it can handle without any work whatsoever by Mystra? Just the fact that a 9th level spell: Wish can repair a dead magic zone, something we know to be very draining for the Weave, and problematic enough that Mystra doesn't want her Chosen doing it all the time, and doesn't do herself casually, should tell you how much power is going into the thing. Castings like that no doubt force Mystra to bring in magic from elsewhere to stablize the Weave. Heck something like a Wish isn't even likely to be anywhere near as efficient as the use of Silver Fire for a task its specially designed for, meaning that the strain it would put on the Weave/Mystra(as a 9th level spell) to work, would be much greater. ... It relates to the question I once asked... how much magic overall can the Weave really support? If there was a person everywhere on Toril casting a 1st level spell at the same time. I wouldn't be shocked if the Weave broke. --- And it has never been stated that the banning of 10+ magic was to stop further damage to the Weave. It was and is, an act of cowardice by the goddess of magic. And epic magic is likely around only because Mystra herself likely doesn't have the power to ban it.
Alleran 07-15-07, 10:24 AM	Just the fact that a 9th level spell: Wish can repair a dead magic zone, something we know to be very draining for the Weave, and problematic enough that Mystra doesn't want her Chosen doing it all the time, and doesn't do herself casually, should tell you how much power is going into the thing. Castings like that no doubt force Mystra to bring in magic from elsewhere to stablize the Weave. A Wish spell also drains experience from the caster, IIRC, so the Weave isn't taking the full force of the spell - part of the caster's life essence or whatever you want to call it is going into the spell.
Zsych 07-15-07, 03:12 PM	Losing experience is just one of the strange mitigating factors people put into this stuff, to keep you from using such spells excessively in the game. What would you say about Mystra herself, who can practically cause instantaneous castings of spells without trouble for herself, not using Wishes to solve her DMZ and WMZ problems? ... Mystra I worked on the issue for thousands of years, with only some results.
Alleran 07-16-07, 06:46 AM	Losing experience is just one of the strange mitigating factors people put into this stuff, to keep you from using such spells excessively in the game. What would you say about Mystra herself, who can practically cause instantaneous castings of spells without trouble for herself, not using Wishes to solve her DMZ and WMZ problems? ... Mystra I worked on the issue for thousands of years, with only some results. Dragons are listed in the Draconomicon as having an experience cushion each day that they can deplete before using "earned experience", so I would assume that Mystra (any deity, really) has something along those lines. I haven't read Faiths and Pantheons in a while, either, so she might just have the Alter Reality divine ability.
Lord Karsus 07-17-07, 10:47 PM	How do you know how much power it can handle without any work whatsoever by Mystra? -Don't know. The Weave might have a cap, and it might not. Judging by the fact that it's still going strong, I'd venture a guess that it doesn't. And it has never been stated that the banning of 10+ magic was to stop further damage to the Weave. -The canon explanation (It might have since been retconned), according to Magic of Faerūn, is that, "...[Mystra] was able to repair [the Weave] so that powerful magic was no longer possible." And epic magic is likely around only because Mystra herself likely doesn't have the power to ban it. -As Epic Magic is magic, Mystra indeed has a role to play in it's casting. The fact that Elven High Magic involves Corellon Larethian and Mystra is canon proof that Mystra deals with Epic Magic, along with Mundane Magic. Losing experience is just one of the strange mitigating factors people put into this stuff, to keep you from using such spells excessively in the game. -And game mechanics have this habit of morphing into and becoming lore. :P
Stigger 07-19-07, 07:55 AM	Well, not precisely canon proof... mostly just a very, very likely interpretation of an incredibly probable inference... :D
Lord Karsus 07-19-07, 09:56 AM	Well, not precisely canon proof... mostly just a very, very likely interpretation of an incredibly probable inference... :D -In my mind, that is canon proof. If we know that the school crossing guard helps students of all ages cross the street, then we know that she helps 5th graders, 4th graders, 12th graders, kindergarten children, 8th graders, and so on...
BrennonGoldeye 07-19-07, 10:17 AM	Heck, one helped me across the street last week, and by any definition my grade would be considered Epic.;)
Lord Karsus 07-19-07, 11:43 AM	-Heh, there we go. Firsthand proof. :)
BrennonGoldeye 07-19-07, 12:02 PM	Well, I guess I could have asserted that I was well beyond grade school and therefore my crossing of the street was far beyond her purview of knowledge. But she was uniformed, octagonally hand-signed, and skillfully whistled. I just took her advice and it all turned out for the best. :)
Stigger 07-19-07, 05:11 PM	You know, I don't think I've seen a crossing guard in the last 10 years... Though on the matter at hand, its not explicitly stated that Mystra concerns herself with Epic magic, so it is vaguely open to some interpretation, even if its a pretty thin arguement. ;)
Lord Karsus 07-19-07, 05:59 PM	Though on the matter at hand, its not explicitly stated that Mystra concerns herself with Epic magic, so it is vaguely open to some interpretation, even if its a pretty thin arguement. ;) -This takes us back to the Mystra-Corellon Larethian-Elven High Magic threesome. Why would she "dabble" with Elven High Magic, but not "dabble" with other Epic Magic? It's a really weak argument to counter it...
Karsus the Mad 07-19-07, 07:58 PM	-Don't know. The Weave might have a cap, and it might not. Judging by the fact that it's still going strong, I'd venture a guess that it doesn't. Let's be honest. It's not going strong persay. It's making it at well as can be expected, but it's not strong. -The canon explanation (It might have since been retconned), according to Magic of Faerūn, is that, "...[Mystra] was able to repair [the Weave] so that powerful magic was no longer possible." It's also been said that she recreated the Weave:embarrass Sadly, anyone, everyone, writing about the incident simply can't seem to make up their mortal minds about the specifics:P *winks* you're correct I think tho. -As Epic Magic is magic, Mystra indeed has a role to play in it's casting. The fact that Elven High Magic involves Corellon Larethian and Mystra is canon proof that Mystra deals with Epic Magic, along with Mundane Magic. Whoa....wait. It has nothing to do with *magic* itself. Epic Magic, until noted otherwise, is treated precisely as all other magic in FR, which means Mystra has dominion over it only if it is Weave dependent. -And game mechanics have this habit of morphing into and becoming lore. :P Sad isn't it?
Stigger 07-20-07, 08:41 AM	Weak as the arguement may be... its still enough room to wiggle with debate wise, as KtM pointed out so nicely.
Lord Karsus 07-20-07, 02:35 PM	Let's be honest. It's not going strong persay. It's making it at well as can be expected, but it's not strong. -I'm talking about the Weave in the present. What's wrong with it? Nothing. It's also been said that she recreated the Weave:embarrass Sadly, anyone, everyone, writing about the incident simply can't seem to make up their mortal minds about the specifics:P *winks* you're correct I think tho. -Every source says something different. If only they knew the truth, like we do... Whoa....wait. It has nothing to do with *magic* itself. Epic Magic, until noted otherwise, is treated precisely as all other magic in FR, which means Mystra has dominion over it only if it is Weave dependent. -All right, so if Epic Magic is to be treated as all other magic in the Realms is, then what's the problem? Mystra has dominion over all Magic in the Realms. -Note, I am being extremely semantic. Magic that taps into the Weave is "Magic", magic that taps into the Shadow Weave is "Shadow Weave Magic", magic that stem from Psionic abilities are "Psionics", and so on. ;) Sad isn't it? -Eh, yes and no. Like everything else, there is potential for good. Of course, there is also potential for stupidity, like Infravision simply disappearing, and being replaced with Darkvision, with no explanation.
Karsus the Mad 07-20-07, 07:03 PM	-I'm talking about the Weave in the present. What's wrong with it? Nothing. Wild magic, dead magic, mystic maelstroms, sparks, and so forth is what I was thinking of.
BrennonGoldeye 07-20-07, 08:27 PM	You two are giving me a headache. I have to get up early. Hush. :P
Lord Karsus 07-20-07, 09:48 PM	Wild magic, dead magic, mystic maelstroms, sparks, and so forth is what I was thinking of. -Those were there then, too. You two are giving me a headache. I have to get up early. Hush. :P -Oh, you hush!
Karsus the Mad 07-20-07, 09:52 PM	-Those were there then, too. Yeah, but the subsequent death of two goddesses of magic added considerable damage to it. Besides, you said there was nothing wrong with the Weave. I merely pointed out several things that are wrong with it;) Well, sparks might be considered a benefit.
XHereticX 07-21-07, 10:57 PM	Gee, I leave for a week and when I come back what do I see?? A Karsefight? This explanation clears things up for me. Everything depends on the weave for a conduit from which to draw magic from (not the actual source) cept' shadow weave magic, magic from other worlds (coughElven Highcough), and maybe Psionics. Epic Magic, if it dosen't fall into any of those catagories, still depends on the weave for power. As for why Mystra didn't ban Elven High Magic after the sundering and dark disaster? Simple, because she didn't have to proper jurisdiction and Corellon can sometimes be a little too forgiving of his people.
Karsus the Mad 07-21-07, 11:06 PM	Gee, I leave for a week and when I come back what do I see?? A Karsefight? Meh. LK and I have had similar debates in the past. It doesn't harm our personal relationship one bit. I simply can't be angry at myself, despite all my attempts. This explanation clears things up for me. Everything depends on the weave for a conduit from which to draw magic from (not the actual source) cept' shadow weave magic, magic from other worlds (coughElven Highcough), and maybe Psionics. Epic Magic, if it dosen't fall into any of those catagories, still depends on the weave for power. As for why Mystra didn't ban Elven High Magic after the sundering and dark disaster? Simple, because she didn't have to proper jurisdiction and Corellon can sometimes be a little too forgiving of his people. Actually, Epic Magic, like all other magic, is completely dependent upon which weave it is drawn from. Whether it is drawn from the Weave or Shadow Weave, Epic Magic is still Epic Magic. Epic Manifestation is merely another term for the psionic version of the same thing. I'm more curious as to Epic Pluma, or Epic Table Magic:eek: hehe
Lord Karsus 07-22-07, 12:31 AM	Meh. LK and I have had similar debates in the past. It doesn't harm our personal relationship one bit. I simply can't be angry at myself, despite all my attempts. -And believe us, we've tried. ;)
GothicDan 07-22-07, 02:57 AM	The Netherese are dumb! Elves rock! *Cackles, runs off.*
BrennonGoldeye 07-22-07, 10:01 AM	*sticks tongue out at LK & KtM and merrily skips off after Dan*
Lord Karsus 07-22-07, 05:41 PM	-Wait for me! :: Opens up a Dimension Door and steps in ::
Stigger 07-22-07, 06:04 PM	No mud being flung... and no considerably less polite sorts of projectiles either... not much of a fight really. Not really even a minor spat... how very disappointing.
GothicDan 07-23-07, 06:54 PM	Hoorah! Elf fans this way! *Leads to the best places ever.*
Lord Karsus 07-23-07, 08:48 PM	*Leads to the best places ever.* -Miami Beach
Stigger 07-24-07, 08:53 AM	Nothing is ever the 'best' if it resides in Florida... :tongue: *ducks and runs from thread*
Lord Karsus 07-24-07, 09:17 AM	Nothing is ever the 'best' if it resides in Florida... :tongue: *ducks and runs from thread* -Well, I was thinking more along the lines of the thousands of college girls that flock there for Spring Break. Other than that, and Universal Studios, Florida doesn't really have much to offer. Maybe Dontrelle Willis, but he'll be out of FLA by the time the season starts next year.
Stigger 07-24-07, 09:22 AM	Well, I seem to recall it producing more than its share of religious wackos and bizarre murderers... though really, those college girls aren't really my cup of tea these days. Getting too old to bother with people that inexperienced in life, no matter how good they look. ;)
Lord Karsus 07-24-07, 09:38 AM	Well, I seem to recall it producing more than its share of religious wackos and bizarre murderers... -What's life without a few religious wackos and a few bizarre murders? Boring, that's what. ;) though really, those college girls aren't really my cup of tea these days. Getting too old to bother with people that inexperienced in life, no matter how good they look. ;) -Ah, the woes of growing older.
Karsus the Mad 07-24-07, 01:14 PM	My bro lives there...it's not special really, and kinda misleading. For each college girl you have 5 wrinkly crones:D
Stigger 07-24-07, 06:05 PM	Hardly a woe... never really dating young women, even when I was a younger fellow. Nothing softer than an older woman's skin really... but that's a whole other discussion really. :D And there's nothing wrong with those wackos and psychos, so long as they stay over there... but why walk into their house if you can at all avoid it... ;)
Smilin_Bandit 07-24-07, 06:27 PM	After reading Evermeet I was confused about one thing though. Moon elven scouts were the ones that discovered the Daraugh cities, and from what I recall they possessed the features that their race possesses in the present world, the dark obsidian skin, white hair, so on. They just appeared out of nowhere. When the elven races first met with them, they immediately began plotting against their elven neighbors. It was these plots that brought Llolth's attention to them. My question is this? Where the heck did they come from? They were a race unknown to the other elven races before they met them and Llolth didn't create them. It should also be known that humans weren't even aware of fire and still flung poo for recreation at this point, so this will give you some idea of how far back in Toril's history this goes. It should also be known that this is thousands of years after the original creator races disappeared as well. I forget what the reptillian races are called, but they went into hibernation or whatever they did long before the elves gated into Toril. I need to reread Evermeet.
Smilin_Bandit 07-24-07, 06:44 PM	I don't recall anything about a sundering anywhere but in the World of Warcraft game. This sundering occurred on Toril as well? I'm lost. I don't recall there being a sundering in any of my sourcebooks regarding to the Forgotten Realms history.
Smilin_Bandit 07-24-07, 07:16 PM	It seems more tragic to say that, since women are generally not considered combatants(by us) And there could have been sex based segregation in Jhaamdath, its just not mentioned if there was(and likely won't be) PFFFFFT, not combatant?!? I wish I could introduce you to most of my ex's, especially my ex-wife. For that matter every dang female I know would like nothing more than to put a man in his place. Not combatant. pffft, right!:D
GothicDan 07-24-07, 07:44 PM	Florida is hell. Totally moving to either WA or CA, here.
Karsus the Mad 07-24-07, 08:11 PM	Florida is hell. Totally moving to either WA or CA, here. Sacramento is the bestest of places....;) Or San Fran....
BrennonGoldeye 07-24-07, 09:10 PM	See, I knew my presence wasn't necessary for thread degradation. Just wait til I get my hands on Sage.....:shifty:
Stigger 07-24-07, 09:29 PM	Sacramento? Always thought it was a backwater personally, but I'll admit I haven't been there in many, many years... SF/O isn't bad, but I much prefer Sonoma county... Santa Rosa in particular. Probably why I live in Santa Rosa actually... :D The word Sundering shows up in a lot of games actually... WoW apparently as well, no idea, never tried it... but there was definitely one in the Realms in its ancient past, and White Wolf's Changeling: The Dreaming had one... its an appropriately dramatic word to describe cataclysmic events, so I'm sure its popped up other places as well.
Smilin_Bandit 07-24-07, 09:34 PM	I am curious. If it was noted in the book Evermeet Than I fear that I have become too old and am now becoming senile. I don't recall any sundering at all. What source describes it, I would very much like to look into it?
Stigger 07-24-07, 09:43 PM	Was in Grand History of the Realms as far as I know... which was/is available as a PDF, and it will likely show up in the 'official' print version as well... I seem to recall it being mentioned in a few of the old 2e elfocentric sourcebooks as well, but I could be misremembering that. Can't say I've ever read Evermeet, so can't help you there.
BrennonGoldeye 07-24-07, 10:26 PM	Hoorah! Elf fans this way! *Leads to the best places ever.* Dan, we went there last week. I still have that giftcard for the club. If we can get MarkusTay to come I bet that fiendish dwelven waitress with the antlers will comp the food. :) -Miami Beach Oh how nice....:cool: Nothing is ever the 'best' if it resides in Florida... :tongue: *ducks and runs from thread* He you, me mum is there, and "best" is a well deserved title for anything that can escape from her...(love ya mum).. My bro lives there...it's not special really, and kinda misleading. For each college girl you have 5 wrinkly crones:D Sounds good, lotsa hard-up college guys.:bounce: Dan, prepare the wardrobes, were going huntin........:thumbsup:
Green Elven Vampire 07-24-07, 11:19 PM	Yeah, well, Erevan Ilesere has never been caught or bested by any other deity of any divine rank!! :cool: :confused:
MarkusTay63 07-25-07, 03:07 AM	I went to Disney in Aug last year - you'd have to be INSANE to live in Florida. I like it 'warm', but I don't like my air the way I like my peanut-butter; chunky style. I could cut that cr@p with a knife, it was so bad... :rolleyes: I didn't like the giant rodents much either... :P BTW, I get everything comp Brennon... it's a gift. :D The Sundering occurs in Evermeet: IoE starting at the bottom of pg. 159 - "Starleaf felt it first..." and is referred to as The Sundering for the first time right at the the beginning of the next chapter on pg. 164 That entire chapter details the after-effects of the sundering, and how Lloth was of "mixed mind" about it - it killed her favorite plaything (Ka'Narlist), but created the many tunnels that the Drow would someday call home. I believe the Sundering was first mentioned in source in Comanthyr: Empire of the Elves, but I could be wrong there.
Smilin_Bandit 07-25-07, 11:22 AM	Cool, Thanks! ~ Smilin_Bandit ~ :D
ElberethSilverleaf 07-27-07, 12:25 AM	As a whole I generally dislike the Eberron setting. however they have done some really original work on their version of "Drow" or dark elves IMO.
Ianten_Silverblade 07-28-07, 06:37 PM	Play RPG in LotR world for nicer elves. :) Yeah. Play the glorious middle earth elves, who would rather up and run away like little girls then fight against an enemy that was once one of their greatest blacksmiths. Play them and then head immediately into the gray havens leaving the rest of the world to rot in a stinking hell until Sauron gets enough power to reach the gray haven's itself and then whine that this is all the humans fault when Orc, Trolls, and fouler things land on the beaches of the Gray Havens. :rolleyes:
Ianten_Silverblade 07-28-07, 06:49 PM	Americans do not have the best art right now, and some countries rival their tech level... However, Americans are still stuck up :). And the French, British, and other bloody nations aren't? My friend, you trending on dangerous ground here. We may be a nation with many idiots but your European nations have a history twice as bloody with human rights violations all the back to Rome and Greece! That doesn't even speak of the nations such as those in Africa and the Middle Eastern Nations (such as Pakistani, Uzbekistan, and Afghanistan as well as Saudi Arabia and the Sudan), whose civil rights and human rights violations make you Europeans look like eaters of little fluffy cakes!
Ianten_Silverblade 07-28-07, 06:51 PM	Many Americans are certainly more arrogant in their attitude toward the rest of the world than FR elves ever were. Gee, I wonder why. I dunno. Maybe cause we've won two wars, organized relief efforts around the world (such as the formation of the Red Cross and other charities) as well as form the foundation for the United Nations were your European nations just gobbled up crap and made war with each other.
Ianten_Silverblade 07-28-07, 06:54 PM	Nope, i have been here, in the USA, for the most of my life. And I have been to France only when I was 12 (never been to Canada). But I have been to many parts of the world... The attitude of many Americans towards foreign countries and the USA foreign policies has made it the bully of the world, whom almost everyone dislikes. Yeah. Everyone dislikes us and then we come back to our own nation and try and keep to ourselves only to have you other nations pull us back into the fray! Sometimes I freaking wonder what you nations want sometimes?
Ianten_Silverblade 07-28-07, 06:58 PM	You did vote this idiot into office :) No. You implies our nation as a whole! Thus you mean we! And we all DID NOT vote the baboon that now sits in the oval office into power! Don't freaking lump all American's in as supporters of Bush. Plenty of us hate his freaking guts dude! We're just bound by laws to grudgingly acknowledge him as our leader for now.
Lord Karsus 07-28-07, 08:47 PM	-So, this guy and an emu walk into a bar...
BrennonGoldeye 07-28-07, 10:10 PM	OH, um, wait, I know this one, I pick the :turkey: Well, unless the guy is an :elf: But not a french :elf: If so, I go back to the :turkey: P.S.- OK, maybe if He's a really cute french :elf:
MarkusTay63 07-29-07, 12:22 AM	Actually, I'm fairly certain we DID NOT vote him into office, at least not the first time. Bush's brother in Florida had crucial votes in anti-Bush districts destroyed and kept blacks from voting, and Bush only won because he took Florida. Had his brother not rigged the election, that criminal would not be sitting in the white house today. Sorry, but so many people forget the facts that revolved around the first election. :headexplo He would've lost the second one - his exceptence rating was hovering around 14% - if 9-11 didn't happen. His exceptance rating went to 95% overnight. Makes you think, don't it? ;) I used to be heavily involved in politics (actually ran for office when I was 19) and had an uncle run for congress twice. If you think your vote counts at all your seriously mistaken. The people don't pick their leaders, the corporations do, and they are in the business of sucking us dry. Sorry for the rant, we now bring you back to your regularly scheduled mindless drivel. :cool:
Derren S. 07-29-07, 04:39 AM	Oh great, real world politics... One of the stranges things about the USA is that the people somhow behave as if "their" democracy is the best democracy in the world but the laws in the US, especially the ones about voting are not democratic at all. Or how would you call a system where the president can be elected by the minority? Give me a single reason why there are no direct votes in the US except it being a holdover from 200 years ago. That gerymandering is legal in the US and it has been used to the extreme so that the votes of many people doen't count at all anymore is also not very democratic. Still the US is so arrogant to think that they have to spread their democracy around the world by force. And I agree that the US is the bully of the world. How many countries did the US invade or staged a coup in them because they weren't satisfied with the elected presidens of those countries? Quite a lot. And the US is so hypocritical. Offically they want to spread democracy but they have no problem with assasinating democratically elected leaders or otherwise staging a coup and installing dictators. And its not only in foreign politics. Clinton did lie while he was not under oath and the impeachment was started nearly immediatly. Bush continually lies, breaks laws and the constitution, attacks countries out of personal reasons (It is proven that the Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and actually was an enemy of Al-Quaeda) and nothing happens to him. Considering this, the US is really a good model of evermeet. The elves are also extreme hypocrits (Extremly lawful despite their alignment is usually chaotic). Leading families who are not in touch with the rest of the population, arrogant and not very good diplomats.
Karsus the Mad 07-29-07, 12:34 PM	-So, this guy and an emu walk into a bar... *follows emu for a drink* Yeah. Play the glorious middle earth elves, who would rather up and run away like little girls then fight against an enemy that was once one of their greatest blacksmiths. Play them and then head immediately into the gray havens leaving the rest of the world to rot in a stinking hell until Sauron gets enough power to reach the gray haven's itself and then whine that this is all the humans fault when Orc, Trolls, and fouler things land on the beaches of the Gray Havens. :rolleyes: Add in "begins to return and are upset that others have claimed their former land that they willingly gave up." and you have FR elves!:P
Stigger 07-29-07, 02:33 PM	The US isn't a democracy... I can't think of many nations that qualify as a democracy to be honest. It's a republic... slight bit of a difference there really. As to the hypocrisy of the US, what exactly does one expect? There is nothing the US is currently doing that European nations haven't done in the past... we're just a little bit behind the historical curve there, but we're a young nation, so cut us a bit of slack and give us a few more decades to really get our act together. No one has any idea what's going on now that we don't have a Cold War to define the status quo, and enforce the need to maintain it. By and large, I'd say that while the US has made many mistakes, it also tends to have a much higher learning curve historically than most other nations out there... generally speaking. The current Administration seems bent on repeating quite a few mistakes that should have been avoided, but hey, no one ever said Neo-Cons had any bleeding clue what the hell they were doing. So yeah, all things considered, I don't think the US is really comparable to the elves really... similar in some respects perhaps, but considering that the average middle aged elf is considerably older than the US... I'd say they had far less of an excuse for acting the way they do. ;)
Derren S. 07-29-07, 03:27 PM	If we assume that elves are as tenacious as humans are then there isn't a big difference. Humans might make a mistake, suffer from it, avoid it but then forget it again and repeat the mistake. In that timeframe (several 100 years) the original elves are still in charge which means elves are still in the first "make mistake" phase. Generally new ideas only come with new blood while the old "blood" will stick with old ideas. The problem is that "new blood" is relativly rare in the elven society compared to nearly everyone else. That the elven society is heavily based on nobility and tradition (which strangely is as unchaotic as it can get) increases those problems as the elves in charge always come from the same families with the same background.
BrennonGoldeye 07-29-07, 10:00 PM	If we assume that elves are as tenacious as humans are then there isn't a big difference. We assume nothing of the sort. Hominid tenacity hits somewhere close to Elven apprenticeship. One of the stranges things about the USA is that the people somhow behave as if "their" democracy is the best democracy in the world. Yet again:rolleyes: , the USA is not a Democracy. We have a Democratic Party, and we aspire to the tenets of Democracy, but our founding leaders set up a Republic. We Americans do have a tendency to show great pride in our nation. Rightly so. We are the children of those who fled from the rest of the crazy genocidal bastages who still rule many parts of the world today. Or maybe those that were sold by their own brethren for power. Or those who had their land taken and despoiled. Many of us are all of the above and more. We aren't perfect, don't claim to be. We are a young nation that has waged less war and given more of itself to other nations than any great power in history. Those nations we have warred with seem to be in much better shape compared to those defeated by other nations. Look outside your window and you'll see what I mean. That gerymandering is legal in the US and it has been used to the extreme so that the votes of many people doen't count at all anymore is also not very democratic. I agree fully. Not really anything that has to do with the Presidency, but I still agree. I find it appropriate that the word gerrymandering comes from the governor of Massachusetts who was proceeded by a man named Gore and replaced a US Vice President named Clinton. Those crazy 19th century Vice Presidents. Silly fact I know, but it's just so rare we agree it popped into my head out of shock.;) Still the US is so arrogant to think that they have to spread their democracy around the world by force. I agree that force is never a good option. And its not only in foreign politics. Clinton did lie while he was not under oath I'm not sure if your saying he lied or not. He lied on national TV and to our Congress. A great majority of Americans don't give a flip if he got a BJ or not. It's none of our business. He wasn't the first, and he won't be the last. We care that he lied. Should he have been impeached? I don't believe so, but one branch of government lying to another is paramount to treason if you want to get technical, and would you like to give me an example of a parliamentarian that doesn't like to get technical? :cip:
Derren S. 07-30-07, 06:14 AM	-I removed the post because it was not appropriate.- Derren
Karsus the Mad 07-30-07, 06:24 AM	Can we cut out the political tennis match? This thread, while rather pointless in it's inherent value, has lasted for 12 pages, and deserves the chance to live til' 15:emp:
BrennonGoldeye 07-30-07, 08:18 AM	Can we cut out the political tennis match? This thread, while rather pointless in it's inherent value, has lasted for 12 pages, and deserves the chance to live til' 15:emp: Agreed.
Smilin_Bandit 07-30-07, 02:21 PM	So, elves being my favorite race to p.ay, I have to say that there aren't too many on this thread that like them, or that sound like they like them. I think they've gotten a bad rep. Lets look at them for a moment. They are friggin OLD! Real friggin OLD!!! They have screwed up not only their own homeworld, but Toril. They've fought amonst themselves and the dragons of old for so long that they have driven their numbers into the ground. However, with all of this in mind, they have seen their mistakes, and although they have been known to make the mistake more than once, we have to remember that although they are a very OLD race, they don't have old memories. They rebelled against the humans of Netheril because of their dangerous and wasteful use of magic, because they saw what they had done with magic, and because of the way the humans were treating the other races within their borders and beyond. As far as I know, they never enslaved any other races. Well the non Dark Elves didn't. That's a plus. Their major cities and empires kept from falling into ruin and lived much longer than any human or dwarven empire. That's a plus. Finally, the elves cleared the path for the other races to be able to prosper within their lands. The elves domesticated the Dalelands and the forest of Cormyr, forcing the dragons and powerful evil creatures of those lands to withdraw. Without this cleansing of the continent, the other races might very likely be under the tyranical influence of some venerable red dragon, or Phaerimm or some such. Of course you do have a few bad apples in any race, so those racist elves, normally of the gold elf variety, tend to be a little genocidal in nature. Wood and Wild elves just don't trust the other races. That's not arrogance, that's xenophobia. As for Moon elves, they can be arrogant, but no more arrogant than the big brother who has the knowledge of the ages and the skill and power to defend themselves should one of the other races decide to get froggy. They offer their knowledge, but with restraint, knowing that humans and other races have none. Now add a bit of mystery, language barriers, cultural differences, and an almost fanatical desire to be accepted into Arvandorr when they pass over, and you have, what other races would consider, an intolerable habit towards arrogance. There you have it in a nutshell. ~Smilin_Bandit~ :D
Lord Karsus 07-30-07, 05:50 PM	-Ah, I love how everything is George Bush's fault. George Bush caused Tilverton...:nonono:
GothicDan 07-30-07, 06:26 PM	It's hard for one man's stupidity to cause such huge errors. This means there's a LOT of idiots in America, in all strata of society, which is what I always thought anyway.
Karsus the Mad 07-30-07, 06:31 PM	-Ah, I love how everything is George Bush's fault. George Bush caused Tilverton... Of course it is:P Nations and governments as a whole, and those under them, have this bad habbit of not being able to take responsibility for their own stupidity, and are rather over-eager to point their fingers at others, rather than face the sad truth that their pathetic existence is entirely their own fault in one way or another. Seriously! Do you really think Shade would have attacked Tilverton if Bush was behind Cormyr?:P It's hard for one man's stupidity to cause such huge errors. This means there's a LOT of idiots in America, in all strata of society, which is what I always thought anyway. Replace "America" with "humanity" and you got it correct. That's been my experience anyway. People are pretty much people, regardless of where you go. That means stupid people are everywhere....sadly.... Meh. I've gotten 6 out of 7 continents covered, but when I get to Antarctica, I'll let ya know if stupidity has spread to that continent also:D
GothicDan 07-30-07, 06:36 PM	People are stupid everywhere, but in different ways. I firmly believe in cultural differences. :)
Lord Karsus 07-30-07, 06:37 PM	Meh. I've gotten 6 out of 7 continents covered, but when I get to Antarctica, I'll let ya know if stupidity has spread to that continent also:D -I read on the back of a Snapple cap that the longest pizza delivery was to Antarctica, from Miami, or something like that. Now, that's stupidity. Who gets pizza from Miami?
GothicDan 07-30-07, 06:39 PM	I hope they like cold pizza.
Lord Karsus 07-30-07, 06:41 PM	-Now, that's a real test of those pizza sleeve things that keep 'em hot while being delivered.
Karsus the Mad 07-30-07, 07:04 PM	People are stupid everywhere, but in different ways. I firmly believe in cultural differences. :) Well, yes, there is cultural diversity when it comes to stupidity:P Tho' I've noticed this little odd trend that is cross-cultural. It's primarily a pre-fabricated complaint, where one just fills in the blanks:P "I lost my job! Damned <insert key cultural nemesis> ruin everything!" Of course, one never blames oneself for their own laziness....:rolleyes: And "Things were better in the old days before those damned <insert key nation of dissention> poked their noses in!" Obviously, things are always so much better in a time in which one isn't alive:rolleyes: And my personal favorite, which I over-heard in a bar in Brussels: "Damned <insert religious sect/national origin/etc, in this case America>, they're unfairly making <insert favored culture/nation/way of life, in this case English> work harder!" And then there's the way I met my bestest of friends, Andy (in my sig). I was at pub 57, just below my balcony actually, drinking away the night as usual, and I heard this gods aweful english accent, and there was this chap, chit chatting with the locals, and he said "The only good American is a dead one.", at which point I promptly leaned over and asked in a perfect American accent (which is something difficult for me to do, since I don't speak english all too often), "Now what precisely did *I* ever do to *you* to deserve death? Hmmm?" We were best of mates til' the end:D -I read on the back of a Snapple cap that the longest pizza delivery was to Antarctica, from Miami, or something like that. Now, that's stupidity. Who gets pizza from Miami? Huh...my bet was going on the taxi ride from France to Algeria, but it seems I was wrong:P
Lord Karsus 07-30-07, 11:50 PM	Huh...my bet was going on the taxi ride from France to Algeria, but it seems I was wrong:P -I just meant that, of all of the places in the world, why get pizza from Miami? Might as well go those extra hundreds of miles north, and get it straight from the source of pizza.