Post/Author/DateTime	Post
balfor 06-10-07, 10:08 PM	Does anyone know anything about Ulgarth in the Utter East? I know only the brief description found in the Shining South.
Old Sage 06-10-07, 10:19 PM	There's an entire chapter on Ulgarth in FR16 The Shining South.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 12:26 AM	MAP (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/54652810/)
BadCatMan 06-11-07, 08:06 AM	There are also some small tidbits related to Ulgarth in The Horde Campaign Setting. Also some here in Candlekeep's web enhancement to Lost Empires Of Faerun: http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/leof_ipl.htm And some unofficial info from the guy who first mentioned Ulgarth in Old Empires in the PDF here: http://members.tripod.com/KingsTears/Scott%20Bennie/scott_bennie.htm I think that's all that there is to know about Ulgarth.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 04:08 PM	I think that the Amethyst Sodality sounds like the group that is alluded to in the Hordelands CS, called "the secret Imaskar Empire". Also, you do realize that Ulgarth is incredibly close to the 'Free Cities' of Zakhara, and the city of Utaqa is just below the edge of my map? Ulgarth is in a VERY unique position, because it is closer to Zakhara then the Heartlands of Faerūn, and they also have an old trade road into Kara-Tur. That road was most likely in use during the Kingdom of Guge period, but it still appears on the maps and could be easily re-opened. Ulgarth could very well be in a position to be THE economic powerhouse of the future, especially since the states of the Golden waters have been sending ships across to maztica as well.
BadCatMan 06-11-07, 08:47 PM	There's supposed to be some place called the Five Kingdoms (?) just past Ulgarth in the Utter East, which was the setting for Faces Of Deception. Then in all the maps I've found, there's just large desert from there on until one gets to Zakhara proper. I've become quite intrigued with the place. It joins four separate Torilian campaign settings, and now links to Maztica as you say, and all the great cultures of each. For what initially looks like a fairly dull place, it has a lot of possibility. I went on (and on) about throwing funky new stuff into Ulgarth in the latest Tome Of Battle thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=792515
Old Sage 06-11-07, 09:37 PM	The only places to discuss the Utter East were Faces of the Deception and the Double Diamond saga. There was an old video game that was ostensibly set in the Utter East, but as we've learned, aside from having the D&D brand on it, had nothing recognizably D&D or FR about it. Additionally, the 1e FR boxed set has some minor references. As does the The Shining South [FR16].
Old Sage 06-11-07, 09:39 PM	And here's a little from Tom Costa, collated from both WotC and Candlekeep - "The Utter East appeared in the non-canon Double Diamond series of mini-novels and the canon Faces of Deception novel (who's main characters were given 2E stats in Dragon sometime back). The Kingdoms lie just south of Ulgarth (see FR16 Shining South and the 3E Shining South) and north of Zakhara (the Al-Qadim setting). Essentially, the natives have a mythical (Asian) Indian culture that was conquered by a mixed group of Northmen and Ffolk arcane casters. The Five Kingdoms fell to warring with one another using these giant magical gates called Blood Forges that brought in a lot of fiends. To recreate it, I'd start with the 3E Oriental Adventures web enhancement Mahasarpa." and - "Further south and off the 3E map, the Utter East is populated by an Asian Indian-esque culture dominated by emigrated Northmen and Ffolk from the Moonshaes." and - "Faces of Deception began in Erlkazar and traveled to the Utter East, which is located just north of Zakhara in that wedge of land that seperates Faerun, Zakhara, and Kara Tur. The Utter East, however, was on the W portion of that bit of land and clearly more influenced by Faerun than the other contintinents. It most definitely did not end up in Kara Tur." and - "The Kingdoms lie just south of Ulgarth (see FR16 Shining South and the 3E Shining South) and north of Zakhara (the Al-Qadim setting). Essentially, the natives have a mythical (Asian) Indian culture that was conquered by a mixed group of Northmen and Ffolk arcane casters. The Five Kingdoms fell to warring with one another using these giant magical gates called Blood Forges that brought in a lot of fiends. To recreate it, I'd start with the 3E Oriental Adventures web enhancement Mahasarpa." and - "You should do a search on these boards or the WotC boards. There have been lengthy discussions on the Utter East in the past. The Utter East is the region between Zakhara and Faerun's Ulgarth, also known as the Five Kingdoms. The Five Kingdoms' natives are the Mar, a pseudo-Asian Indian-like people (which makes sense because the pseudo-Indians in Kara Tur are on the other side of the mountains). They were conquered by a mix of Northmen and Ffolk from the Moonshaes a long time ago. These conquers quickly fell to warring with one another's kingdoms, dragging in evil outsiders to do their bidding through giant portals they lost some control over. The books appear in the apocryphal (that is not canon) Double Diamond saga of novels and Faces of Deception (which is canon and the main characters of which got some 2E treatment in Dragon Magazine way back). They also were the setting for an old video game, something with Blood in the title, which really had no Realmslore at all and is insiginficant ot the discussion. As for what I would do. I would take the Mahasarpa web enhancement for the 3E Oriental Adventures and then talk on the invaders and the fiend engine/portals. You could maybe through some Yak Men in (can't remember which book they were updated in) too. This region is not discussed in Shining South, though Ulgarth gets a fair amount of attention in the 2E Shining South and updating in the 3.5E Shining South."
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 12:11 AM	Uh-oh... :doh: Whenever I came across the words 'Utter east', I had always thought it was a reference to the Hordlands (being past the "Unapproachable East"). I have a big empty area between Utaqa and Ulgarth... I need to find out more about these 'Five Nations' pronto. I stuck a Minotaur nation in that region, to balance out the Yakmen in Zakhara and the Bargda (Goatmen) I placed on the eastern side of the Yehimels - sort of a three-way beastman stand-off which caused the entire region to become a 'no-man's land' (no pun intended). Now I have to re-think all of that. Really HATE the fact that they were invaded by the Ffolk and Northmen, though; that makes no sense to me what-so-ever. :thinks: I mean, really, who the hell thought of that? :confused:
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 12:43 AM	Really HATE the fact that they were invaded by the Ffolk and Northmen, though; that makes no sense to me what-so-ever. :thinks: I mean, really, who the hell thought of that? :confused: Troy Denning. Just kidding. ;) Or am I... :D Also check out Scott Bennie's unofficial 3e update .pdf with his musings on the Old Empires and far southeastern reaches of Faerun.
Old Sage 06-12-07, 01:01 AM	I have a big empty area between Utaqa and Ulgarth... I need to find out more about these 'Five Nations' pronto.The sources Tom and I covered above are pretty much it. So they're likely the best sources for you to start learning about the region.
TomCosta 06-12-07, 02:26 PM	Just to be clear. Ulgarth, which is just off the SE corner of the 3E map, is covered in 2E's FR16 The Shining South and gets a page or so in the 3.5E Shining South. It is otherwise barely mentioned at all. The Utter East is further SE of Ulgarth and seperates the rest of the Realms and Ulgarth from Zakhara/Al-Qadim.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 03:43 PM	Okay, going to add this stuff to my map, and then see if it meets with 'official' approval. I found this list - The Five Kingdoms Doegan Edenvale Kelazzan Konigheim Langadarma Is that correct? Anything specific about their placement I need to know? Also, what the heck are the free cities of Parsanic; I found this list - Zendar Dekar Zendum Tharkar They don't appear related to the Free cities in Zakhara - would these be further north of those and therfore NOT under the control of the Sultan? I am totally facinated by this new bit of lore, and now must race out and find the books these areas appeared in. :D If I can get a quick reply to these questions, I would like to work on this ASAP. Thanks - Mark
Old Sage 06-12-07, 09:01 PM	The Map Room at Candlekeep has a map of the region:- http://www.candlekeep.com/downloads/uttereast.jpg The Five Kingdoms are Parsanic, Eldrinpar [Doegan], Konigheim, and Edenvale. The fifth kingdom, as I recall, is the mystical kingdom from the novels and thus not pictured on the map.
BadCatMan 06-12-07, 09:02 PM	Well, Kelazzan is one of the cities of Ulgarth. I don't know why it's been listed with the Five Kingdoms. Perhaps there's two cities by that name (not unlike the ever-popular Thebes) or Ulgarth has gained control of it from the Five Kingdoms (should be the Four Kingdoms then), or it has special independent status. Or the reference is simply wrong. A quick Google search on Kelazzan turned up that it was referenced in Volo's Guide To The North and The North, wherein a group of Luskan slavers are said to operate as far away as the Utter East. This turns up another locale, Esbresh. Kelazzan and Esbresh are both said to be "near the Utter East".
Old Sage 06-12-07, 09:05 PM	Langdarma is not one of the Five Kingdoms either. It's a lost valley nestled deep within the Yehimals (closer to Tabot than Edenvale).
BadCatMan 06-13-07, 12:03 AM	Maybe Ulgarth is in fact one of the Five Kingdoms? It is a kingdom and is just next door, and it would explain why Kelazzan is included in that list. It just sitted so well on that map Old Sage linked to. And it would explain why it also has such a western Faerunian culture if the Ffolk and Illuskans colonised there too. Which brings us all the way back to that Luskan trader-slaver. As I'm seeing it (as of now, anyway): The Five Kingdoms Of The Utter East: Ulgarth (Kelazzan and several other cities known in Shining South) The Free Cities Of Parsanic (Zendar, Dekar, Zendum, Tharkar) Doegan (capital Eldrinpar) Edenvale Konigheim Some notes: Free Cities Of Parsanic - I presume they used to be a kingdom (perhaps called Parsanic?) until they revolted, hence the prominent name 'Free'. Esbresh - It could be anywhere in here, though probably not in Ulgarth since that's more well covered. Barbarian lands - They lie in the desert west of Ulgarth. This would explain the gap between Ulgarth and Parsanic in the map Old Sage linked. Clearly not one of the Five Kingdoms. Langdarma - Also not one of the Five Kingdoms. So which of these did Faces Of Deception or Double Diamond visit?
Old Sage 06-13-07, 12:41 AM	Ulgarth is not one of the Five Kingdoms. The regions comprising the Five Kingdoms are those I noted above. Faces of Deception began in Erlkazar and traveled to the Utter East, which is located just north of Zakhara in that wedge of land that seperates Faerun, Zakhara, and Kara Tur. The Utter East, however, was on the W portion of that bit of land and clearly more influenced by Faerun than the other contintinents. It most definitely did not end up in Kara Tur.
BadCatMan 06-13-07, 12:57 AM	Ulgarth is not one of the Five Kingdoms. The regions comprising the Five Kingdoms are those I noted above. You said: "The Five Kingdoms are Parsanic, Eldrinpar, Konigheim, and Edenvar. The fifth kingdom, as I recall, is the mystical kingdom from the novels and thus not pictured on the map." Then you said: "Langdarma is not one of the Five Kingdoms either. It's a lost valley nestled deep within the Yehimals (closer to Tabot than Edenvale)." Langdarma's the mystical kingdom, isn't it? So I figured that you'd decided that Langdarma wasn't one of the Five Kingdoms. This left four, so I thought Ulgarth would make a good fit. Faces of Deception began in Erlkazar and traveled to the Utter East, which is located just north of Zakhara in that wedge of land that seperates Faerun, Zakhara, and Kara Tur. The Utter East, however, was on the W portion of that bit of land and clearly more influenced by Faerun than the other contintinents. It most definitely did not end up in Kara Tur. I found a review of Faces Of Deception that mentioned they'd passed through Edenvale, to be more precise.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 12:58 AM	Figures, I got those lists from Wikipedia. :rolleyes: wonder why whoever made that entry listed Langdarma as one of the five. Also, several online sources, including wikipedia, list Ulgarth WITH the Utter east, rather then the Shining South or the Golden Waters, so it would make sense if it was the fifth. Perhaps thats where the confusion with Kelazzan comes from, or everything west of the Copper Bay may have at one point been a seperate kingdom called Kelazzan, although it is more likely just a mistake of Wikipedia. Tentatively, I will place Esbresh in the empty mountainous region north of Konigheim, so that will keep that map correct while placing yet another canon location. This will give us a 5th kingdom, either way. If it turns out that Esbresh is not the 'mystical kingdom', then we can simply say that the Free Cities of Parsanic do not constitute a true nation, bringing our number back down to five again, so no matter what it all works. The empty barbarian region should remain empty, becuse it both serves my nefarious purposes AND official maps list that region as unclaimed barbarian lands. No other info on the 'mystical kingdom', huh sage? Also, what source is Langdarma in?
BadCatMan 06-13-07, 01:52 AM	He [Inther Blackfeather] does very well fronting for a dozen or more slavers who operate out of Luskan and reach as far south as Kelazzan and Esbresh near the Utter East. By that I would presume that Esbresh is much like Kelazzan: a coastal port city with visitations from pirates, traders and slavers. It could be your San Tuar, MarcusTay. At a guess, I'd make it the capital city of Konigheim (a coastal kingdom without any cities that seem to be known), and place it by the mouth of that river that runs through the land. (As seen on that map.) The novel Faces Of Deception is the source of much of this Five Kingdoms stuff. I haven't read it, I'm just going by the review here: http://www.candlekeep.com/bookshelf/novels/8586.htm and Old Sage's quotes above. And yeah, Langdarma is the mystical lost paradise (a lot like Shangri-La or Shambhala). It's in the Yehimal mountain range, either in or not far east of Edenvale, which was passed through in the novel. That computer game set in the Five Kingdoms is Blood & Magic. You can get the demo here: http://www.fileplanet.com/11114/10000/fileinfo/Blood-&-Magic Or just read a summary here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_&_Magic
Old Sage 06-13-07, 02:36 AM	You said: "The Five Kingdoms are Parsanic, Eldrinpar, Konigheim, and Edenvar. The fifth kingdom, as I recall, is the mystical kingdom from the novels and thus not pictured on the map." Then you said: "Langdarma is not one of the Five Kingdoms either. It's a lost valley nestled deep within the Yehimals (closer to Tabot than Edenvale)." Langdarma's the mystical kingdom, isn't it?No. So far as I know, Langdarma is not part of the Five Kingdoms. So I figured that you'd decided that Langdarma wasn't one of the Five Kingdoms. This left four, so I thought Ulgarth would make a good fit.Well, Tom Costa has said that Ulgarth is not part of the Five Kingdoms, so that still leaves the mystical kingdom from the novels as the fifth of the Five Kingdoms. And given their geographical location, just south of Ulgarth itself, the Five Kingdoms can be considered separate regions altogether and not actually connected with Ulgarth. The Five Kingdoms, being south of Ulgarth, are those indicated on the map I linked to above -- four of which are named, with the fifth not being directly referenced on the map itself.
Old Sage 06-13-07, 02:38 AM	No other info on the 'mystical kingdom', huh sage?There isn't much more, no. Just what's in the novels themselves. Also, what source is Langdarma in?See Faces of Deception.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 02:47 AM	Hmmm... making Esbresh a kingdom doesn't seem to work, nor does making it a capital, going by that quote there. It says it's near the Utter east, so my best guess would be it is the furthest south city of Parsanic. Other sources I found list Parsanic seperate from the Utter East, but include Ulgarth, so I would assume that either Langdarma is the mystical 5th kingdom, or Unther is (which makes sense, because it isn't considered part of the Golden Waters, which include Durpar, Estagund, Veldorn, and Var the Golden (although Veldorn is usually left off the list these days). I'm modifying the region right now, but it was pretty damn close to the CK map to begin with, so I must have done something right. The small swamp and forest were my add, so I'll just shrink the forest a bit and nudge some mountains around, and everything should fit perfectly. Probably will have to lose San Tuar though. Too bad, I rather liked the location for a pirate town, but I guess any of the 'free cities' will work just as well. Might have to lose the town of Maize too, but I can just put that further into the mountains, I suppose. Its all good, thanks for your help.
BadCatMan 06-13-07, 02:52 AM	Well, Tom Costa has said that Ulgarth is not part of the Five Kingdoms, so that still leaves the mystical kingdom from the novels as the fifth of the Five Kingdoms. And given their geographical location, just south of Ulgarth itself, the Five Kingdoms can be considered separate regions altogether and not actually connected with Ulgarth. The Five Kingdoms, being south of Ulgarth, are those indicated on the map I linked to above -- four of which are named, with the fifth not being directly referenced on the map itself. Shrug. Brian R James / Iakhovas said it the other way - "From north to south, the Five Kingdoms of the Utter East are Ulgarth, Parsanic, Doegan, Edenvale, and Konigheim" - in this old thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-684267.html He's legit now, maybe GHotR will shed a clue or two on this in addition to all its other goodies. :) On the other hand, maybe the missing 5th kingdom is the Kingdom Of Nix from Blood & Gold. :D
Old Sage 06-13-07, 03:02 AM	I don't think Brian's entirely correct there. Tom said, back in October last year at Candlekeep, that Ulgarth was not one of the Five Kingdoms. The fifth Kingdom is the unnamed region along with the other named Kingdoms on the map I indicated above. Ulgarth is clearly separate from the region of the Five Kingdoms.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 04:05 AM	On the map, it indicates "The Mead Hall of the Northmen" - is that part of the 'Mystical Kingdom', or perhaps near it?
Iakhovas 06-13-07, 09:40 AM	I'll have to respectfully disagree with Tom here. In my view Ulgarth is indeed one of the Five Kingdoms. And yes the Grand History will include new lore on the region.
Old Sage 06-13-07, 10:59 AM	Well, from what we've learned regarding Ulgarth in the 3e Shining South tome, I still feel there hasn't been much in the way of "recognised" support, through official Realmslore, to suggest that Ulgarth is one of the Five Kingdoms.
Iakhovas 06-13-07, 07:41 PM	True enough. Add this region to the list of places that need more love from the designers. Well, from what we've learned regarding Ulgarth in the 3e Shining South tome, I still feel there hasn't been much in the way of "recognised" support, through official Realmslore, to suggest that Ulgarth is one of the Five Kingdoms.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 07:57 PM	Guys, please, you're scaring the children. ;) I have a map that shows "Utter East" on it in the water right next to Ulgarth, and Ulgarth is almost always listed with the Utter East, but not the Shining Lands, which lends a great deal of credence to Brian's argument. However, the cities of Parsanic are also listed amongst the Utter East but are not considered one of the Five Kingdoms, nor does that indicate in any way that the Utter East is synonymous to the 'Five Kingdoms'. I really need to read that novel, because I'm still not getting something here... Is the secret valley (Langdarma) the Mystic Kingdom, or merely a country passed through to get to the real 'Mystic Kingdom (which seems a little odd to me)? Also, if the characters in the novel were traveling north to south, and also slightly east, in their journeys through the Utter East, then it might make some sense that they passed through Langdarma (as stated) before reaching their final goal. Since the most southeast location on that map is the Mead hall, then I can assume that was the final destination of the journey, and perhaps even part of the 'Mystical Kingdom'?
Old Sage 06-13-07, 08:21 PM	True enough. Add this region to the list of places that need more love from the designers.On that, we can agree. ;)
Old Sage 06-13-07, 08:22 PM	Guys, please, you're scaring the children. ;)Good. :D I have a map on it that shows "Utter East" in the water right next to Ulgarth, and Ulgarth is almost always listed with the Utter East, but not the Shining Lands, which lends a great deal of credence to Brian's argument. However, the cities of Parsanic are also listed amongst the Utter east but are not considered one of the Five Kingdoms, nor does that indicate in any way that the Utter East is synonymous to the 'Five Kingdoms'.I'd chalk this up to the region not having enough attention in the Realmslore to properly nail down ALL the hard facts concerning the Five Kingdoms. The earlier debate about Ulgarth's status as one of the Five Kingdoms is proof of that. I really need to read that novel, because I'm still not getting something here... Is the secret valley (Langdarma) the Mystic Kingdom, or merely a country passed through to get to the real 'Mystic Kingdom (which seems a little odd to me)? Also, if the characters in the novel were traveling north to south, and also slightly east, in their journeys through the Utter East, then it might make some sense that they passed through Langdarma (as stated) before reaching their final goal. Since the most southeast location on that map is the Mead hall, then I can assume that was the final destination of the journey, and perhaps even part of the 'Mystical Kingdom'?Faces of Deception is set primarily in the Yehimal mountain range which rests east of Edenvale. It's been said, though not specifically stated in the Realmslore, that the Yehimals could be considered part of Kara-Tur (which would be the western border of the nation of Tabot) and not part of the Utter East specifically. Thus, I don't think Langdarma, as the lost valley sitting deep within the Yehimals, can be considered the mystical kingdom. It's not considered part of the Five Kingdoms.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 09:01 PM	Uh-oh... I have to disagree with you here Sage. The Yehimals is the only mountain range that exists in ALL four campaign settings. It may be called different names on each side, but it has dozens of 'arms' extending into each area. Come to think of it, it contains a Starport so technically it exists in FIVE settings. :D Now those are some big a__ mountains! :eek: And if we count the RPGN's Malatra campaign as a seperate setting, AND take into account that the entire southern Jungle is the Malatra (which I personably find questionable), then we can lay claim to SIX seperate settings that mountain range has some presence in. Plus the Dwarves came from there, how cool is that? :cool:
Old Sage 06-13-07, 09:17 PM	Well, the "arms" of the Yehimal that extend into the Realms, aren't specifically part of the Utter East.
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 02:31 AM	Submitted for your approval - My Utter East Map (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/57622290/) The names of the four forests, as well as the forests themselves, are my add, because this region was looking pretty sparse. Also, the Konig Peaks and the city of Konigburg where my invention as well. I just though that Konigheim needed at least one city. I placed Langdarma on the map, which is a canon location, and I used an unamed valley from the map that came with Ronin Challenge, because it seemed the best fit. The little Lake and Forest in that mystical valley were also added by me, but the valley itself already existed. I figure if the place was supposed to be Shangri-La, then it ought to look pleasant. The river running toward Phutan was canon, I just extended it. The two rivers dumping into the lake from the glaciers were my idea. The Yehimals look a bit rough, and I haven't named any of the ranges in it yet because I'm not really done with this part of the map. I just want to make sure its Okay before I add the map key and compass rose and dress it up a bit more. Campaign Hook -There is a two way sea-portal that connects this region to the Sword Coast. One end is in the center of the three tiny islands west of Candlekeep halfway to the Moonshaes. The other end is between the two tiny isles known as Naarlith, which lie 300 miles south of the forest of Gundar in Var the Golden and Estagund. This portal was discovered approximately 50 years ago, and has been used extensively by pirates of the Nelanther and the Corsairs to the south. At least one Luskan merchant, a certain Inther Blackfeather, deals with slavers that use this route, trading in the pirate port of Esbresh. The pirates may have known about the portal much longer ago, because they have often used those three little islands off the sword coast as a temporary base to repair their ships and obtain fresh water. Some time ago, The Ffolk of the Moonshaes and the Northman who share their isles got tired of the continuos pillaging by the pirates near their waters, and put together a very large fleet to put an end to the pirate threat once and for all. The Armada chased down a group of pirate vessels into the small islands, where the pirates sailed directly into the portal. Fearing that their quarry was getting away, the Northmen and Ffolk persued the pirates through the portal, only to run smack dab into a hurricane that was raging in the southern waters. Fortunately, most of the boats made it ashore, but were badly damaged. they also had no idea where they were, and had no way of knowing exactly where the portal was located after the storm blew over. They decided to remain in this strange new territory, building a town and raiding nearby native villages for supplies and women. In time, they dominated the region, and so began The Five Kingdoms. The only part of that that I made up was the existance of the portals and the hurricane, to supply a reasonable explanation of why the other canon portions are possible. Inther Blackfeather is mentioned in The North, along with his dealing with Esbresh.
Old Sage 06-15-07, 06:26 AM	Looking good Markus! I'm not too sure about some of the added forests, as it tends to deviate a little from the map I linked to earlier. Though, given the fact that this region has received so little attention, it's not too much of a stretch to assume that new elements, like the forests, might be revealed should the area ever receive an official update in the Realmslore.
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 12:21 PM	I've come across several forests that have either appeared or disappeared between additions, as well as one in Rashemen that split in two. The forest of Gundar in nearby Var the Golden is a prime example of a forest that has moved around and vanished. I look at it this way, their are probably thousands of forests that wind up undeocumented on various maps, and this region seems the most 'mysterious' as far as cartographers are concerned. Early Faerūn maps showed an endless plain to the east of Ulgarth. The Kara-Tur Trail Map showed all of the rivers you see, but none of the other geography. Even the Zakhara map deviated from the Kara-Tur one in the Sempadan, adding more rivers in the north. So I figure I'll just add to the confusion. ;) I mentioned everything I added both here and at Deviantart so that DMs may choose to ignore my adds. I originally only had one tiny forest near Ulgarth, but the region looked 'ugly'. I figure there had to be something here to attract the Norsemen and Ffolk to the region, so I figured a little greenery wouldn't hurt. I finished it at 3 AM, and I'm just looking at it with a clear head for the first time. I think I'll lose the Konig Forest (but keep the mountains), and shrink up the Darkwood. That would make more sense, I think. Any input from anyone else? Also, does Langdarma look right? Also, is it spelled corectly, because on Wikipedia it's spelled Langadarma?
Old Sage 06-15-07, 08:01 PM	The Wiki entry is incorrect. It's "Langdarma."
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 08:29 PM	I've moved this to the Utter East thread, because we have moved away from the original topic of Ulgarth. ------ Mark EDIT: Revised map (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/57670523/)
BadCatMan 06-17-07, 10:55 PM	Those are some fantastic maps, Markus. :) I'm kind of moving back on the Ulgarth topic, so I'm posting here. The Candlekeep Index references some books that mention Ulgarth: http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/frindex/detail_61.htm#Ulgarth though the most solid have been mentioned above. The Dragon Annual 4 listing would be this: http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/specialIssues/v5748btpy7cyc&source=rss probably referring to the Speaking In Tongues article. Presumably they speak 'Ulgarthic', also in the Candlekeep Index. Previously they've been said to speak an Imaskari dialect, and straight Common. I found a copy of Faces Of Deception and flicked through it. The book seems to agree with Blood & Magic and makes those events canon, though puts them far in the past. The Golems were built on the Bloodforges, but these destabilized the underground prisons/tombs(?) of some powerful fiends. These sound a lot like the 'Tanray-Men' that Scott Bennie mentioned in his Utter East musings about Ulgarth. These were only mistakenly identified as Tanar'ri men, and could be anything. They were also entombed deep beneath the earth. Between these monstrous slave warriors, and the Basal Golems and their Bloodforges, and the massive portals in the Tom Costa quotes above, I'm put in mind of the Imaskari Artificers. And we already know Ulgarth was settled by a few refugee Imaskari. In fact, given the golems and their forges and the artificers mentioned in the game, they sound a lot like Eberron's Warforged and the Artificer class. I love the Forgotten Realms there's always something new to discover. :D
Iakhovas 06-18-07, 09:19 AM	This event occurs between 648 DR to 657 DR and is known as the Bloodforge Wars. As a result of these wars, antediluvian horrors entombed by the Imaskari are inadvertently released leading to an event known as the Scouring of the Utter East. The Grand History will have more details. I found a copy of Faces Of Deception and flicked through it. The book seems to agree with Blood & Magic and makes those events canon, though puts them far in the past. The Golems were built on the Bloodforges, but these destabilized the underground prisons/tombs(?) of some powerful fiends.
BadCatMan 06-18-07, 10:27 AM	New fact! Good fact!
TomCosta 06-18-07, 05:42 PM	I believe Langadarma is the fifth kingdom and not Ulgarth, but honestly it's been a long time since I read the Double Diamond saga or Faces of Deception and I don't have them handy. But here's my recollection. Ulgarth first appeared in detail in the 2E Shining South with nary a mention of Five Kingdoms, nor was it settled by Ffolk/Northmen who dominated the Mar population with demon forges (or whatever they called them). Consequently, it didn't make sense to me that Ulgarth was the fifth kingdom, as it's never mentioned with the others or vice versa. Nevertheless, there are only four kingdoms on the map, and IIRC, at least in one of the books they make reference to a mystical fifth kingdom (ie Langadarma), but like I said its been a while. Someone want to dig up their books and look.....
TomCosta 06-18-07, 05:43 PM	Oh, and the map is awesome. Great work.
Old Sage 06-18-07, 08:55 PM	I believe Langadarma is the fifth kingdom and not Ulgarth, but honestly it's been a long time since I read the Double Diamond saga or Faces of Deception and I don't have them handy. But here's my recollection. Ulgarth first appeared in detail in the 2E Shining South with nary a mention of Five Kingdoms, nor was it settled by Ffolk/Northmen who dominated the Mar population with demon forges (or whatever they called them). Consequently, it didn't make sense to me that Ulgarth was the fifth kingdom, as it's never mentioned with the others or vice versa. Nevertheless, there are only four kingdoms on the map, and IIRC, at least in one of the books they make reference to a mystical fifth kingdom (ie Langadarma), but like I said its been a while. Someone want to dig up their books and look.....I did look over the relevant sections of the books. As I see it, there just hasn't been a strong enough connection made for Langdarma being considered as the fifth 'mystical' kingdom. Like Ulgarth, it hasn't been mentioned all that often with the other four kingdoms.
Razz 06-19-07, 06:11 PM	This is all very fascinating stuff. Why does the FR designers think stuff like this won't be accepted or be popular to FR players? If they gave places outside Faerun a chance after 20-some odd years, then maybe we'll see more info on these "lost" areas. That has me wondering, I wonder what the popularity scale for that "Hordelands" issue done in Dragon Magazine sometime back is, and if it'll warrant an FR book beyond Faerun? Great work MarkusTay on those maps!
TomCosta 06-20-07, 05:42 PM	Old Sage, correct if I'm wrong, but I just don't remember ever seeing Ulgarth (which is not made up of Ffolk, Northmen, or Mar like the four kingdoms we know) mentioned with the Five Kingdoms, but I do remember seeing Langadarma mentioned with the Five Kingdoms (which is a special place for the Mar). That said, I'm not much invested in the statement. Either way works for me.
Old Sage 06-20-07, 08:26 PM	Well, we both seem to agree on Ulgarth not having a place among the Five Kingdoms. As for Langdarma, I didn't read anything definitive on my quick scans through the books. I may have to read through them again just to be sure... but as it stands now, I don't distinctly remember reading Langdarma as one of the Five Kingdoms. It could be that Langdarma was one of the Five Kingdoms before the coming of the Northmen and the Ffolk and that, at the time of the Mar, Langdarma was 'the mystical kingdom.' After the Mar were conquered, the 'special place' of Langdarma was essentially lost to the rest of the Five Kingdoms. All this is just speculative anyway... until I've read through the relevant sections of the book again.
MarkusTay63 06-24-07, 07:29 PM	I hadn't realized this thread continued. I'd like to add to this, although my knowledge of the region does not go beyond what was discussed in this thread. #1 Ulgarth is usually listed with the Utter east, and not the Shining South, at least not since 2e. However, I would have to agree, and I think everyone here does, that Ulgarth is NOT currently one of the five kingdoms. Notice I used the word 'currently'... #2 I believe, from what little I have gleened, that the "Five Kingdoms" is an old reference to this region, and may not pertain to any of the kingdoms in their current incarnation. The Parsanic Cities are certainly not a true nation, so they may not be counted either as one of the Five Nations. I would hazard to guess at some time in the past, LONG before the Ffolk/Northmen came, the Mar had five distinct kingdoms in this region, which may or may not have included Langdarma, Ulgarth, or even the Parsanic Cities. After the arrival of the invaders, the borders were most likely greatly altered, and the original five may have been nothing like what is left now. So, I think 'Five Kingdoms' is an archaic term held over by the native Mar, and was 'picked-up' by the newcomers, and is still in use today, even though it actual meaning is 'lost'. #3 I left room for at least one more country both to the south and east of Konigheim, so there may be something there, or perhaps there was something there in the past. If the Parsanic Cities don't count as one of the five, you could even say there are two 'missing', which brings me to my next point.. #4 Don't forget that the forest at the bottom edge of the map is the Sempadan, and we KNOW there were two fallen kingdoms in THAT region - Nog and Kadar! Both of those have conections with the islands to the southeast, which had a psuedo-Vedic culture as well, just like the Mar. ;)
Dark Wizard 06-24-07, 10:22 PM	#4 Don't forget that the forest at the bottom edge of the map is the Sempadan, and we KNOW there were two fallen kingdoms in THAT region - Nog and Kadar! Both of those have conections with the islands to the southeast, which had a psuedo-Vedic culture as well, just like the Mar. ;) I envy the treatment of the Utter East region to some extent. There is something official (and semiofficial) existing about it, allowing for a Vedic/Indian-esque area to officially exist, but enough of it is left undetailed to allow much independent development, without the weight of preexisting canon to get in the way (especially if that canon is based strongly on real world analogies). Certainly there is some analogy involved, but due to the lack of detail, most of which is vague and iffy anyway, it could be easily overridden by way of DM's personal development or future supplements with almost no effort. If only the same could be said of some other areas. /Rant.
MarkusTay63 06-24-07, 10:57 PM	There is evidence of a Vedic culture ALL around the Yehimals, in all three settings (Kara-Tur, Hordelands, and Zakhara). I figure there was some kind of VERY large region where this culture existed, probably in many seperate small kingdoms (like early India), but then the Sundering either created the Yehimals smack in the middle of it, or, more likely, drove a smaller existing range to 'new heights', as it were. The major geographical upheaval of that event then caused that culture to fracture, so that later on these various groups would be veiwed as seperate peoples. Imaskar was known to have conquered peoples to the south, before the Dupari even formed into nations. Solon and Ra-Khati, both Imaskar survivor states (The Horde, pg.18) did not speak Roushoum, but rather Devic, which sounds like a typical 2e transliteration of 'Vedic'. I figure there is a connection there with the 'Ang' peoples of the Malatra, the peoples of the Sempadan (Nog and Kadar) and connected Jungles (detailed in Ronin Challenge), and the various Islands in the Segara Sea (Foreigner's sea in AQ) like Afyal, Isle of the Elephant, where I would assume this culture most likely originated. Now if only someone would connect all of this in an article... :plotting:
Dark Wizard 06-24-07, 11:17 PM	There is evidence of a Vedic culture ALL around the Yehimals, in all three settings (Kara-Tur, Hordelands, and Zakhara). I figure there was some kind of VERY large region where this culture existed, probably in many seperate small kingdoms (like early India), but then the Sundering either created the Yehimals smack in the middle of it, or, more likely, drove a smaller existing range to 'new heights', as it were. True, it's a sign of a large and widespread human 'ethnicity' in that area, just like Chondathan and Illuskan are major groups in Faerun. It would be interesting to see this place developed in a reasonable direction. Solon and Ra-Khati, both Imaskar survivor states (The Horde, pg.18) did not speak Roushoum, but rather Devic, which sounds like a typical 2e transliteration of 'Vedic'. Devic seems like one example of better name scrambling by TSR, an infinite improvement over Tabot and Koryo. I actually like the name, it reminds me of Deva (another concept borrowed heavily from West and South Asian culture/mythology, but equally heavily transformed from the source material to fit D&D). A mildly Vedic culture inspired by powerful setting-unique Deva celestials? Hmm... I figure there is a connection there with the 'Ang' peoples of the Malatra, the peoples of the Sempadan (Nog and Kadar) and connected Jungles (detailed in Ronin Challenge), and the various Islands in the Segara Sea (Foreigner's sea in AQ) like Afyal, Isle of the Elephant, where I would assume this culture most likely originated. Some good strong sword and sorcery vibe locales (a firm nod to some of the more exotic places of Hyboria, but just a nod) might just be what the Realms needs for this region, at least as one of many aspects of the place. Now if only someone would connect all of this in an article... :plotting: Would be a good article, or series of articles. Too bad Dragon is no longer being printed.
MarkusTay63 06-25-07, 02:25 AM	There are other... places. ;) Do not fret grasshopper, all will be revealed. :D
BadCatMan 06-25-07, 11:33 AM	I found Esbresh - it's on the FR Atlas map, in Ulgarth. Right where MarkusTay put it (I guess that means you already found it, huh?) I'm not too sure now on Ulgarth's connection with the Five Kingdoms. The history I have found goes in different directions, though I still think it's a good fit. I guess we can all agree that there's the Half-Dozen Kingdoms Of The Around That Area, of which Ulgarth is certainly one. A different spin on the Five Kingdoms would be British India - lots of western colonialists lording it over the natives. Anything is possibe though. If anyone's interested, I found a copy of Blood & Magic: http://www.squakenet.com/abandonwarering/site.asp?idgame=2192&url=http://www.abandonware-france.org/ltf_abandon/ltf_jeu.php?id=674 This time a complete version and not a demo. It's not exactly software piracy, it's abandonware, meaning that it will most likely never be sold and thus charged for again. Oh, and the website's French - good luck! Now to find a computer old enough to run it... or hack it open to get at the juicy lore and stuff and not bother playing the bad prehistoric game.
MarkusTay63 06-25-07, 05:31 PM	I consider Esbresh a seperate city-state from Ulgarth, and yes, I found it on an old 2e map. Esbresh will be getting a blurb in 'something' soon enough - stay tuned. British India is a good start, althought that Mead Hall of the Northmen threw me. Thats why I figure the people in this region to be similar to the germanic tribes during the Roman empire. Not very organized, and not all that civilized. The older Mar (Vedic) culture has been repressed, so basically you get something similar to British India, but with overlords actually much less 'advance' then the local populace, hence once again similar to the Germanic tribes having taken over numerous parts of the 'civilized' Roman Empire. No good Real-world analogy, but thats really a good thing, when it comes right down to it.
Razz 06-25-07, 07:28 PM	Would be a good article, or series of articles. Too bad Dragon is no longer being printed. Someone can still put this together and send it in to the WotC, because they are accepting submissions for their Digital Initiative content, and it will appear in DI. :P
MarkusTay63 06-26-07, 01:36 PM	As I've mentioned in the above post, it WILL appear somewhere... ;) You guys don't think I do all this research out of bordeom, do you? Well... maybe most of it, I do... :embarrass * *We need a different "embarrass" smiley, that one looks like I'm sleeping.