Post/Author/DateTime	Post
scatode 03-12-07, 05:38 PM	I just re reading the Cormyr trilogy and I know that there is a new Royal Mage etc. but I remember reading somewhere that he was to become a chosen of Mystra/giant dragon to protect Cormyr from future major hassel. What is the crack and is there any stats for him now and what is he doing?
dragonheart 03-12-07, 08:45 PM	he was not becoming a chosen - he ended up getting help from a chosen (EL) and a dragoness who chose to join him. for details see the novel Elminster's Daughter. so far no stats on either Vangy or the dragoness.
Old Sage 03-12-07, 09:24 PM	Some thoughts from Garen "Brian Cortijo" Thal, Ed and The Hooded One from Candlekeep:- From Brian... "A black dragon? Oh, no no, Mr. Phipps. I'm rather certain that Vangerdahast wound up as a steel dragon (despite any official word in any direction)... but what know I?" and - "And taken so. Thank you. Dragons, as a general rule, have attitudes that match their alignments. Humanoids that become dragons, however, tend to adopt forms--either intentionally, or because of the magics that make them so--that match their previous alignments and attitudes. For instance, Lorelei Alavara, the elf driven mad by the death of her betrothed Thatoryl (and swiftly descended into evilly chaotic behavior) wound up as the "Devil Dragon" Nalavara that later menaced Cormyr. It's only reasonable to assume that Vangerdahast, a lawful neutral wizard leaning toward lawful goodness (but much blood on his hands and willing to stain them still further) would adopt a LN dragon form... assuming he had any say in the matter. The steel/Greyhawk dragon is best suited for Old Thunderspells; it enjoys playing with human folks, is interested in the defense of civilized realms, and is more magically powerful than even the gold and red dragons. Emerald and sapphire dragons are also LN, but don't have the natural propensity to shift away from their base alignments as easily as steel dragons do. I'm inclined to believe that, given the freedom, Vangerdahast will eventually wind up as lawful good. After much soul-searching and penance, of course." From Ed and THO... "Garen Thal, Ed says you are right on all of this. As usual. :} He did, however, point out that Vangey retains his magic use in any form, and probably would use it to be a steel dragon that LOOKS LIKE a black dragon gone purple with age. love, THO"
bitter thorn 03-13-07, 12:54 AM	Good info Old Sage! BTW, the OP might want to throw a spoiler warning into the thread title if that's possible.
Derren S. 03-13-07, 03:16 AM	Elminsters Daughter spoiler: The short story is that Vangey developed a dragon enslavment spell which threatened whole dragonkind and after a skirmish with thayans and dragons who either wanted the spell for themself or see it destroyed a song dragon which he did capture and torture before decided to sacrifice her hoard and most of her live to save him from draconig vengance and agreed to spend the rest of her live in stasis together with him as cormyrs protecter. Oh and this song dragon also has a child with Elminster. Realms logic... :rolleyes:
MaskedOne 03-13-07, 10:12 AM	Care to explain how being forced into a familiar form that was often willingly adopted, temporarily (lasting under 10 minutes) immobilized for a conversation that both sides were more than willing to carry and then being knocked out for a couple hours counts as torture? Vangey's actions in that scene barely constitute a harsh interview and over half might not have been there if the dragon didn't try something that tends to irritate most sentients like oh say killing him. If you're going to level accusations at Vangey, at least hunt down accurate ones. He was downright restrained in responding to an attack on his life.
Derren S. 03-13-07, 12:44 PM	And having a dozend helmed horrors hack at the dragon even though Vangey is able to end the fight immediatly is a nice thing to do? Torture or not, what some things which happens in the novel are still very silly. Realms logic, as I said as the strange behaviour of the dragon is not the only silly thing. When you have a dragon which will defend your country (because of one reason or another), keeping it in stasis is the most stupid things you can do because it prevents the dragon to become more powerfull.
herceg 03-14-07, 07:57 AM	Not just 'not becoming powerful' but also completely sealed off from information. It'll exist in a 'knowledge-vacuum', not knowing what to defend (within 'the Country' or 'the Realm' specifically) from whom and why and how (I mean specific methods that would use the weaknesses of the specific aggressor), and why the thing it defends was attacked in the first place, and how and... you know what I mean.
Derren S. 03-14-07, 08:24 AM	Good point. The dragon would be absolutly clueless about how to counter new weapons/spells which were developed while it slept (or how to work with those weapons/spells). So this novel contains a lot of "strange" things which make no sense and for me it is hard to take anything from the novel serious. That might explain my opinion about the whole vanderghast/dragon thing. Its imo simply ridiculous.
Jhiroth 03-14-07, 08:20 PM	He did, however, point out that Vangey retains his magic use in any form, and probably would use it to be a steel dragon that LOOKS LIKE a black dragon gone purple with age. Now there is a writeup I'd like to see. Did anyone ever stat out that dragon from the Cormyr novel? I forget it's name, the one Cormyr was named after if I recall...
herceg 03-14-07, 08:25 PM	You mean the Purple Dragon Thauglorimorgorus? EDIT: According to Dragons of Faerun (pg156), he was an ancient one (male ancient black dragon).
Old Sage 03-14-07, 08:57 PM	Now there is a writeup I'd like to see. Did anyone ever stat out that dragon from the Cormyr novel?Officially? No. Though, I sure that if you perform a search through Google, you'll likely find one or more fan-based interpretations.
Garen Thal 04-23-07, 12:38 AM	You mean the Purple Dragon Thauglorimorgorus? EDIT: According to Dragons of Faerun (pg156), he was an ancient one (male ancient black dragon).The age cited in DoF is necessarily wrong. Thauglor appears in the very beginning of the book, in the year -400 DR. Thauglor is slain in 1018 DR. Even if Thauglor were only first hatched in that prologue chapter, he'd have been 1418 years old at the time of his death--more than enough to put him into great wyrm territory. The fact that he's dealing with one of his granddaughter's ten-year-old offspring makes him far older than that; dragons don't begin mating until the the end of their first century of life, or sometimes later. Thauglor can be assumed to be at least 1600 years old when he is slain, making him a great wyrm black dragon, very probably advanced (per the rules in ELH) as well.
MarkusTay63 04-23-07, 12:54 AM	I was thinking of picking up this novel next, but thanks to the complete and total lack of spoilers I no longer need to. :rolleyes: It does sound strange though - under most circumstances beings go into stasis to avoid aging, but in the case of a dragon that is completely counter-productive. Whats the point of prolonging your life, when you are practically immortal to begin with? :confused: Maybe to stave-off boredom, which would get to most people after the first thousand years or so, but in the case of a mage, even a dragon-mage, with access to the entire multiverse, how could you possibly EVER get bored? Just think of the things you could do, the stuff you could see, with near-unlimited power and nigh-unlimited time. And Vangy was known for hanging out on other primes (wasn't it mentioned somewhere that he was a 'regular' on Oerth{GH}), I just don't buy the anti-boredom argument. The stasis-thing seems to be another not-well thought out idea. :nonono:
Derren S. 04-23-07, 01:28 AM	It does sound strange though - under most circumstances beings go into stasis to avoid aging, but in the case of a dragon that is completely counter-productive. Whats the point of prolonging your life, when you are practically immortal to begin with? :confused: Thats FR logic, meaning it doesn't make sense at all. Plane hopping might would not be possible as the dragon always has to be ready to defend the country but because of the reasons mentioned above (knowledge, ageing) it is extremly stupid to put a dragon in stasis. Sorry for spoiling the book, but it was you who decided to read all the spoilers. But the book has two plot lines and we spoiled only one of them.
Stigger 04-23-07, 02:24 AM	Kinda hard to imagine a wizard of Vangey's accomplishments wouldn't realize that little problem and take steps to sidestep it somehow... not like any details beyond the most basic and vague are ever sketched out of how that spell is intended to work. Like I sai, its hard to conceive that a mage as clever as Vangerdahast wouldn't take it into account and do something about it. Though I am kinda curious Derren, if you don't like the Realms as much as you seem to, why even bother with these boards? Seriously, not trying to start anything here, but I'm honestly curious as to what you do like about the Realms, since I can't recall seeing anything you do seem to like. What do you find so fascinating with the Realms that keeps you around, despite your seeming dislike of a lot of key aspects of it? Might give me some useful insight into an aspect I haven't considered is what I'm thinking with that question.
Derren S. 04-23-07, 02:33 AM	Kinda hard to imagine a wizard of Vangey's accomplishments wouldn't realize that little problem and take steps to sidestep it somehow... not like any details beyond the most basic and vague are ever sketched out of how that spell is intended to work. Like I sai, its hard to conceive that a mage as clever as Vangerdahast wouldn't take it into account and do something about it. Problem is that Vangey designed the spell to work this way. The entire stasis thing was his idea. (But to defense, he actually meant to use enslaved dragons for this, not willing ones). Though I am kinda curious Derren, if you don't like the Realms as much as you seem to, why even bother with these boards? Seriously, not trying to start anything here, but I'm honestly curious as to what you do like about the Realms, since I can't recall seeing anything you do seem to like. What do you find so fascinating with the Realms that keeps you around, despite your seeming dislike of a lot of key aspects of it? Might give me some useful insight into an aspect I haven't considered is what I'm thinking with that question. Yes I dislike many key aspects of the realms, but not all of them. But I am (much) more vocal about the ones I dislike because to me they are extremly silly. That doesn't mean that I find everything in the realms bad. When you cut down the power level and the amount of high level NPCs doing crazy stuff and the elf favoritism the FR is actually quite good. And I just like to argue.
Stigger 04-23-07, 07:01 AM	Well, yeah the whole unwilling part didn't make giving mad as hell dragons more power to smote you with all that great of an idea. Presumably he wouldn't put himself and a willing dragon under such a condition though... unless he really was losing it towards the end there. Which could be kind of amusing having a half-mad, forgetful wizard coming to save the save the day when the Kingdom is truly in need... Interesting take on the Realms there. Being a fan of arguement myself, I can get behind that. Like epic level stuff though personally, so gonna have to disagree there, but I can get behind the bad plotline/do-no-wrong elf thing pretty well. Maybe a 1 RSE per edition limit being imposed on the Realms would be nice too... :D
Derren S. 04-23-07, 09:48 AM	I don't remember every detail, but I think it was at least hinted that Vangey and the other dragon will spend their time in stasis. One could argue that stasis is needed when you have unwilling dragons so they have no chance to free themselves from the spell which controls them, but when you have willing dragons stasis serves no purpose and is actually counter productive as it was already pointed out. But don't the elves of Evermeet do something quite similar with their willing and close dragon allies (keeping them in stasis)? Most storyline problems come from novels. Thats because most authors do not stick to gaming rules too closely (if at all). And as every author, consciously or unconsciously wants their characters to be good, it leads to that the characters pull off more and more crazy stunts to surpass the things they did in the last novel. That most novels which are produced by WotC are RSE or otherwise involve extremely high powered people (or because of the last point the characters get displayed as extremely powerful) doesn't help. It just create a rift between the novels and the gaming world which operates at vastly different power levels (which player can hope to pull of anything remotely as "cool" as Elminster/other chosen did in the latest novel)? It might only imagine things, but I also see a trend similar to the movie industry, where the novels get more and more "cool flashy action" and less story with each year. And finally I blame the current definition of "cool" ;) That elves are so "leet" (to use MMO speak) is a holdover from LotR and while it was a nice touch in LotR for a short while imo the FR is overdoing it. Elves have high magic, elves have the best general magic, elves have the best and most beautiful craftsmanship, elves are the most knowledgeable,... It gets very irritating, especially as there is no apparent reason of why the elves are the best. Elves have lost their mystery and now being the best in everything without a real reason its just silly. But its not just elves. There is a general imbalance of how the races in the FR are displayed. How many novels about gnomes and famous gnome NPCs exist (not counting gnome comic relive characters)? How detailed is the gnome society? The same applies to halflings. Elves simply get the most spotlight. The last thing which irks me is how monsters are portrayed in the realms which ties in with racial imbalance issue mentioned above. In nearly all newer FR lore monsters mainly sit in a cave and wait for adventurers. Even monsters with a high level of intelligence are reduced to adventurer fodder in the realms. This monsters include dragons, beholders, giants and even hobgoblins. Those monsters are displayed as having next to no ambitions and no society at all. Most of the time they simply appear when the adventurers need something to kill, but in FR there are no hobgoblin countries, no giant cities and beholders and dragons simply sit around doing nothing most of the time. Sure there is ancient lore of, for example, dragons ruling Faerun but that are things of the past and strangly those races don't try to regain at least a small bit of their lost glory. Imo such lore only emphasises the problem of monsterous inaction. The only monsters which get a semblance of society are "cool" (again that word) monsters like mind flayers and drow. The rest is stuffed into 10 ft. x 10 ft. rooms with a chest in the middle.
kaor 04-23-07, 11:54 AM	Derren I think we have similar views on FR. But things are the way they are for a reason. If someone wrote a three volume series about halflings in Luirien or gnomes in the Western Heartland would it sell? You could also write a novel about the orc tribes of the north, how they live, where their camps are, putting the horde together, but I doubt that would sell either. Drow. That word has come to mean a lot of things over the past twenty years or so, a lot of it due to Drizzt. It's what people want to buy and read about. Every little leather corset of it. Elves. Evermeet. Mythals. etc. And brain eating. That's always cool. Doesn't seem to help the zombies in literature though. I'd love to read some different sorts of books. Maybe a shirtless, dancing, clean shaven, long haired Dwarven Bard who has one of those cloaks from Calimshan. Things like O.R.C.S. Or Villains by Necessity. Though neither of those sold like even a slightly successful Dragonlance book. Maybe someone could come up with a book to make halflings cool, but the public seems to want elves. Sourcebooks have the same problems. I understand. But I'm still going to complain about it.
Stigger 04-23-07, 03:50 PM	Those are pretty valid complaints really... well, if you perceive those things to be a problem anyway. I'd completely agree that the rest of the races have been utterly shafted... I'd love a novel about Luiren personally, with Hin as the main stars. And something about a real, actual Gnomish hero/heroine would be great. Elves are getting a tiny bit old, and to be honest, the only thing they're doing is making them look like pricks, at least from what I can tell. The treatment of monsters... well, that's never bothered me for some reason. Always kinda liked that aspect of it really, even if it doesn't make much sense if one really thinks about it. I don't see a problem with the high level stuff, but I like high level gaming the most, so that's just a preference issue. Really, overall, you've pretty much described why I don't read too many of the novels though. The movie analogy is pretty much dead on, from what I can tell.
Burningspear 04-23-07, 04:35 PM	anybody remember how Gullykin are portrayed in Dragonlance? and halflings that are always annoying thieves that did not know the item was actually yours... that kind of mis concept put to a race does not endure it to be well liked i guess. I would love to play a serious Gnome once and kick butt in a way...lol, and not be seen as that gullykin kinda thieving half annoying ling..
Aldareth 04-24-07, 03:39 AM	The last thing which irks me is how monsters are portrayed in the realms which ties in with racial imbalance issue mentioned above. In nearly all newer FR lore monsters mainly sit in a cave and wait for adventurers. Even monsters with a high level of intelligence are reduced to adventurer fodder in the realms. This monsters include dragons, beholders, giants and even hobgoblins. Those monsters are displayed as having next to no ambitions and no society at all. Most of the time they simply appear when the adventurers need something to kill, but in FR there are no hobgoblin countries, no giant cities and beholders and dragons simply sit around doing nothing most of the time. Sure there is ancient lore of, for example, dragons ruling Faerun but that are things of the past and strangly those races don't try to regain at least a small bit of their lost glory. Imo such lore only emphasises the problem of monsterous inaction. The only monsters which get a semblance of society are "cool" (again that word) monsters like mind flayers and drow. The rest is stuffed into 10 ft. x 10 ft. rooms with a chest in the middle. I have to disagree with this passage , just take dragons ( the chromatic ) they have no society because THEY ARE so ambitius , they have so much ambitions that they cant trust anyone else , and some basic trust is the key to every society ( trust that you dont get attacked on sight for example ), and a shinning example for this are the talons of justice ( the silver dragon group ) they have this trust and they have also some form of society. just look at the article wyrms of the north on this site and you will see that every dragon detailed has ambitions and a goal, sure the majority of them are elder dragons , but to you think a younger dragon who just want to survive so he can get Old is not ambitius? as to vangey and his dragon enslavement: Wo gehobelt wird, da fallen späne ( soory but i have to express it in german because i didnt know how to say it in englisch , maybe derren can ) or you have to set prioritys, cormyr has for vangey more priority than every dragon, so what if dragons get upset? As to hobgoblins , giants and the like , why do you think the dont have nations just because they dont appear in the novels? the tribe of Karflak the hobgoblin considers everything that is in 3 days march as his territory , is this in your eyes no country? just because they dont have ambassadors or trade with other countrys? as to beholders , they have own countrys and ambitions ( this thief guild in skullport for example, or the monster kingdoms in Veldon , or that big city in the Underdark or that collony near Thay). Just because there is no Novel about the doings of this intelligent monsters , that dont mean that they are inactive or have no other ambitions other than to wait in a 10x10 feet room with a chest in it.
Stigger 04-24-07, 04:18 AM	Good point about the monsters there Aldareth. There's Thar as well really... and quite a bit of the mountains in the North are essentially owned by the various monstrous races. Would be nice if they were treated as something other than lairs waiting to be invaded though...
r6art 04-24-07, 09:43 AM	To weigh in on this issue ... Anybody notice how poor a showing humans have in the FR (especially in the pages of a certain Drow's books)? The only humans who aren't portrayed as greedy, self absorbed (and mostly Evil) jerks are either super wizards who learned their social skills (and everything else) at the feet of benevolent Elves, or orphaned children who learned their nobility from the hard-working Dwarves (and how to fight, of course, from Drow). It seems that the rush to glorify their favorite race, too many Realms authors are all too willing to tinkle down the necks of the humans.
Aldareth 04-24-07, 09:58 AM	To weigh in on this issue ... Anybody notice how poor a showing humans have in the FR (especially in the pages of a certain Drow's books)? The only humans who aren't portrayed as greedy, self absorbed (and mostly Evil) jerks are either super wizards who learned their social skills (and everything else) at the feet of benevolent Elves, or orphaned children who learned their nobility from the hard-working Dwarves (and how to fight, of course, from Drow). It seems that the rush to glorify their favorite race, too many Realms authors are all too willing to tinkle down the necks of the humans. can you count some of that evil and self absorbed humans? i think i missed something...
Derren S. 04-24-07, 11:33 AM	I have to disagree with this passage I probably used the wrong word. I don't mean a society, but rather a civilization. Sure dragons do have a society (at least the lawful ones) but non of them have a civilization. In the past they ruled countries etc. Today the sit in unmarked lairs the lesser races don't care about and wait. When you take a map of Faerun you won't find a spot on the map with fixed borders and the words "Dragon territory" (or "Giant territory", "Hobgoblin Territory") on it. Why is it that the PHB races have dozends of countries in the FR but the "monster" race, even when they are better than humans or elves (for example dragons) or just equal (like hobgoblins) have nothing like that? The best thing monsters get is a band of nomads. The worst is a single lair and no purpose at all except waiting for adventurers. Its not just what is portrayed in the novels, its about what is in the FRCS and supplements and even there there is nothing about monsters building any form of civilization (except cool ones). As for vangey and his dragon enslavement. Why he did it is clear (Cormyr > everything. Thats pretty LN). But the way how he tried to do it is more than just a little silly. Not only is the whole stasis thing a bad idea, by randomly enslaving dragons, he (and with it cormyr) make all other dragons, even the good ones their enemies. And nations who have dragons as allies might also be more distant towards cormyr in the future. Not to mention that many chaotic and/or good characters will also object.
Aldareth 04-24-07, 01:04 PM	I probably used the wrong word. I don't mean a society, but rather a civilization. Sure dragons do have a society (at least the lawful ones) but non of them have a civilization. In the past they ruled countries etc. Today the sit in unmarked lairs the lesser races don't care about and wait. i thought i allready give you facts that they dont sit around a wait... as to civilization, i dont think that dragons are so stupid that they think they can rule countries /civilizations with the PHB races anymore, dont forget dragons rule trugh fear and terror and no PHB race will tolerate this because they evolved ( thachzzar is the exeption from that rule), monstrous humanoids on the other side are slaves to some dragons , so we can stretch the issue and say that dragons still rule countries When you take a map of Faerun you won't find a spot on the map with fixed borders and the words "Dragon territory" (or "Giant territory", "Hobgoblin Territory") on it. Why is it that the PHB races have dozends of countries in the FR but the "monster" race, even when they are better than humans or elves (for example dragons) or just equal (like hobgoblins) have nothing like that? The best thing monsters get is a band of nomads. The worst is a single lair and no purpose at all except waiting for adventurers. oh i see fixed borders...ask Karflak the hobgoblin, he will say : anything in 3 days march is ours! that sounds pretty fixed...and if you ask about civilization he will say that hobgoblin civilization is the best! dont forget not every one have the same opinions about civilization i have i idea for your games, send the PCs on a mission to make clear to Balagos that his domain is inside the borders of tethyr and he better have to leave...dragons JUST DONT CARE about what the little pitty animals that humans are think about it, they consider everything in sight as hers. Its not just what is portrayed in the novels, its about what is in the FRCS and supplements and even there there is nothing about monsters building any form of civilization (except cool ones). As for vangey and his dragon enslavement. Why he did it is clear (Cormyr > everything. Thats pretty LN). But the way how he tried to do it is more than just a little silly. Not only is the whole stasis thing a bad idea, by randomly enslaving dragons, he (and with it cormyr) make all other dragons, even the good ones their enemies. And nations who have dragons as allies might also be more distant towards cormyr in the future. Not to mention that many chaotic and/or good characters will also object. and you think cormyr cares what the others think? cormyr cares for cormyr first and for every 1 one who will complain about the enslavement of the dragons 10 will raise their hands in and start a party, dont forget that even the good dragons strike fear in the hearts of simple men. As to nations with dragon allies...hmmm lets think about how many that are...evermeet?! what a loss if they get distant... as to make dragons to enemies..why care if you have dragons to fight them or better if you can enslave them to fight for you! oh and just make a little math to see how much it takes to feed a dragon and the whole stasis maybe dont a bad idea at all
Derren S. 04-24-07, 01:35 PM	As to nations with dragon allies...hmmm lets think about how many that are...evermeet?! what a loss if they get distant... Damara (partially because as I understood it Bahamuts church is quite active there), Impiltur (at least before the rage), Silverymoon (close ties between Alustirel and the dragon queen) and Unther (Techezzar). And don't forget the cult, although it is currently very weakened and teh church of Tiamat.
Zandilar 04-24-07, 11:03 PM	Heya, why care if you have dragons to fight them or better if you can enslave them to fight for you! May the gods have mercy on the souls of those arrogant enough to think they can enslave dragons without facing the consequences. Not even Vangerdahast knew if his spell would have lasted forever. One small weakness, and BAM dragons destroy Cormyr for her arrogance. Fortunately for Cormyr, things didn't pan out that way.
Stigger 04-25-07, 02:00 AM	Probably more fortunate for Vangey in the short term...
creyzi4zb12 04-27-07, 06:55 AM	Damn!Dragons really know how to better up a bargain. Now Vangey being a dragon to protect Cormyr.....not bad. I'd prefer an orc tho'
GothicDan 04-27-07, 06:58 AM	Vangy as an orc makes me throw up a little in my mouth.
Derren S. 04-27-07, 08:07 AM	Damn!Dragons really know how to better up a bargain. Not really. The bargain is extremly bad. Loss of hoard and a life in stasis together with a wizard turned dragon who wanted to enslave dragonkind.
Zandilar 04-27-07, 08:31 PM	Heya, Not really. The bargain is extremly bad. Loss of hoard and a life in stasis together with a wizard turned dragon who wanted to enslave dragonkind. I don't think Vangey was intending to turn into a dragon himself at first, and I don't really think it was his intention to end up in stasis either. But the whole plan was very poorly thought through on Vangerdahast's part - I'm rather surprised by that, really.
Stigger 04-27-07, 09:16 PM	Its called senility... ;)
Derren S. 04-28-07, 12:05 AM	Heya, I don't think Vangey was intending to turn into a dragon himself at first, and I don't really think it was his intention to end up in stasis either. Certainly not but the other option was death at the hands of some angry dragons. But I actually meant how bad this bargain is for the Song Dragon. She had to give away its (apparently very valuable) hoard to save Vangey and lost her freedom and has to spend her life in stasis (probably forever) together with a human turned dragon who some days ago tried to enslave her whole race.
Zandilar 04-28-07, 04:56 AM	Heya, Certainly not but the other option was death at the hands of some angry dragons. But I actually meant how bad this bargain is for the Song Dragon. She had to give away its (apparently very valuable) hoard to save Vangey and lost her freedom and has to spend her life in stasis (probably forever) together with a human turned dragon who some days ago tried to enslave her whole race. Well, I have a cynical side. My cynical side says it has to do with Ed Greenwood's creative tick* that has him pairing lovely nubile women with old fat hairy men. ;) After all Vangey definitely fell into the latter category (he even managed to get Myrmeen Lhal pregnant** before he went into stasis), and Joysil fits into the former. The more optimistic side of me says that there was a whole lot of stuff concerning Joysil and Vangerdahast that got edited out. Ed continually contests that much of his novels get cut on a regular basis in order to fit into the publisher's standard page length. As a writer myself, I know how it can be - I started a short story once and at 20,000 words it still wasn't complete. *Ed would probably say that he doesn't have such a creative tick, however IMHO there are just far too many examples of them in his writing for it to be coincidence. I mean no disrespect by this at all, so please don't take it that way! (After all, who am I to talk? I have a creative tick that leads me to turn my lead female characters into lesbians or bisexuals. ;)) **This happened in Elminster's Daughter***. Wanna bet we hear nothing more about this, just as we didn't hear anything more about Krystin, whom Myrmeen kind of adopted in the novel The Night Parade? ***In my opinion, Myrmeen is too old to be realistically having babies if she has any hope of ever having one without some risk of the child having some kind of abnormality. In this day and age with our modern medicine, women are strongly urged not to have children after 40 because of this. Having said that, there are exceptions even in the real world... But it simply isn't realistic to expect that Myrmeen wouldn't have any problems at all - and will quite possibly have a need for magical intervention before the end... That is, unless Mystra and/or Tymora intervene to ensure no problems occur - but I want to be shown that and not have to figure it out for myself, thanks! :)
creyzi4zb12 04-28-07, 10:15 AM	Well he did say he was going to protect the place with dragons with any means necessary. At least the dragons were able to create a more humane treatment to his plans rather than being put into stasis themselves. But enslaving dragons was really a bad idea if you'd ask me. If he only used orcs then he really wouldn't have a problem. -they're cheap -they grow fast -they can be easily enslaved with powerful magic -they're strong
Derren S. 04-28-07, 10:51 AM	When you think about it, Vangeys plan wasn't any different morally than what the Shades tried with melting the ice. Improving the situation for their nation at the expense of a whole race/everyone else around them.
Alediran 04-28-07, 06:50 PM	When you think about it, Vangeys plan wasn't any different morally than what the Shades tried with melting the ice. Improving the situation for their nation at the expense of a whole race/everyone else around them. That is why Vang is LN (and not good), he is doing good for his side at the expenses of others.
Braekor Dragonfang 05-03-07, 03:26 PM	someone should write about low level characters a weak willed screw-up elf who runs from people by dropping bags of marbles behind him A talking artifact level sword that only he/she can use, but constantly insults him for his poor social and combat skills a human with mostly good qualities a kobold and his lizardfolk second cousin
Steelwind 05-04-07, 11:09 PM	You know Im pretty sure I remember Vangy as being listed somewhere as a Wizard10/War Wizard of Cormyr5/Archmage3. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Lord_Madrigan 05-04-07, 11:37 PM	someone should write about low level characters Time for a novel about Volo? He is only what level 4 or 5? or perhaps something like Tag & Bink.
Stigger 05-05-07, 09:07 AM	Think Volo was around 9-11 in 2e actually.
Steelwind 05-05-07, 11:36 AM	I am about 90% sure that the 2ed Heroes Lorebook had him listed as a Bard 5.
GothicDan 05-05-07, 04:12 PM	I thought he was a Wizard 5.
Stigger 05-06-07, 02:35 AM	Oops, my mistake, you're right, Wiz 5 in VGtW.
Old Sage 05-06-07, 05:02 AM	Here's a 3e version Tom Costa worked up of Volo -- "... it is not a direct conversion of his 2E stats because I thought what I did more appropriate to his descriptions, and it does need updating to 3.5E however.... VOLOTHAMP “VOLO” GEDDARM Male human Exp 2/Wiz 5/Brd 2: CR 8; Medium-size humanoid (human); HD 4d6+5d4+27; hp 56; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 12 (touch 12, flat-footed 10); Atk +5 melee (1d6+1/18-20, rapier), +6 melee (1d4+1/19-20, masterwork dagger), +7 ranged (1d4+1/19-20, masterwork dagger); SQ Bardic music 2/day, bardic knowledge +6, spellcasting; AL CG; SV Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +11; Str 12 (+1), Dex 15 (+2), Con 17 (+3), Int 18 (+4), Wis 11 (+0), Cha 16 (+3); Height 5 ft. 8 in. Skills: Alchemy +9, Concentration +7, Craft (weaving) +5, Decipher Script +6, Diplomacy +9, Gather Information +7, Knowledge (Arcana) +11, Knowledge (Literature; see Sword and Fist) +6, Knowledge (Local – Amn) +6, Knowledge (Local – Cormyr) +6, Knowledge (Local – Dalelands) +6, Knowledge (Local – Dragon Coast) +6, Knowledge (Local – Moonsea) +6, Knowledge (Local – The North) +6, Knowledge (Local – Sembia) +6, Knowledge (Local – Silver Marches) +6, Knowledge (Local – Tethyr) +6, Knowledge (Local – The Vast) +6, Knowledge (Local – Waterdeep) +7, Knowledge (Local – Western Heartlands) +7, Knowledge (Streetwise, see Sword and Fist) +5, Listen +6, Perform (ballad, dance, storytelling) +6, Profession [brewer) +2, Profession (cook) +3, Profession (scribe) +8, Ride +4, Search +8, Sense Motive +2, Speak Language (Chondathan, Damaran, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven), Spellcraft +11, Spot +6, Wilderness Lore +6. Feats: Alertness, Brew Potion, Luck of Heroes, Martial Weapon Proficiency (rapier), Scribe Scroll, Smooth Talk, Spell Focus (illusion), Survivor. Special Qualities: Bard Class Features: Bardic music (inspire courage, countersong, fascinate) 2/day, bardic knowledge +6, Martial Weapon Proficiency (rapier). Wizard Spells per Day: 4/4/3/2; Base DC = 14 + spell level, 16 + spell level for illusion spells; Caster level 5th. Spellbook: 0 – arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, open/close, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic, resistance; 1 – change self, color spray, mage armor, Nystul’s magic aura, Nystul’s undetectable aura, shield, silent image; 2 – blur, fool’s gold (see below), invisibility, minor image, see invisibility; 3 – clairaudience/clairvoyance, gaseous form, invisibility sphere, major image. Bard Spells per Day: 3/1; Base DC = 13 + spell level, 15 + spell level for illusion spells; Caster level 2nd. Bard Spells Known: 5/2; 0 – daze, ghost sound, light, mage hand, prestidigitation; 1 – expeditious retreat, feather fall. Possessions: +2 ring of necromancy resistance, rod of enemy detection, boots of elvenkind, beast-speaker brooch (with horses), rapier, masterwork dagger, spyglass. NEW MAGIC ITEMS Ring of Spell School Resistance: This simple ring offers magic protection in the form of a +2, +4, or +6 resistance bonus against one school of magic’s spells and effects. Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Forge Ring, resistance; Market Price: 1,000 gp (+2), 4000 (+4), 9,000 (+6). Beast-Speaker Brooch: This simple brooch is engraved with an elven totem of power that allows its wearer to communicate with any one type of animal such as horses, eagles, wolves, or bears, as the speak with animals spell at will. Caster Level: 3rd; Prerequisites: Forge Ring, speak with animals; Market Price: 6,000 gp. NEW SPELLS FOOL’S GOLD Illusion [Glamer] Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 full round Range: Touch Target: Metal objects of up to 10 cu. in. in volume/level Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with) Spell Resistance: No This spell makes metal objects, such as a bronze statue or copper pieces, appear to be gold. The caster can effect 10 cubic inches of metal – the equivalent of about 150 coins – per level. If the caster is trying to effect multiple objects, such as a chest full of coins, the caster only needs to touch one of the objects, providing all of the other effected objects are in contact with one another. Material Component: A powdered gem of at least 15 gp value sprinkled over the object(s)."
Stigger 05-06-07, 01:41 PM	I'd think that Spell Focus Illusion should be replaced with Spell Focus Divination, given that it was mentioned that he "specialized" in spells to snoop out other peoples secrets... otherwise looks pretty decent.