Wait.... Eastern, red.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wait.... Eastern, red.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Ubbergeek
03-02-08, 09:03 PM You know, I had an epiphany, a strange idea running in my head long ago...

Red wizards. A distant eastern country. Hard dictature (albeit no discernable head directly). A somewhat decentralised, rational political organisation. They led incursions around. The 'bureaus' and 'offices' fight a lot.

... Was Thay in Ed Greenwood a subtile alegory of the USSR originaly?
Old Sage
03-02-08, 09:59 PM No.

So saith Ed [July '06]:- "Thay was my Orient, or as close as the Realms was going to get to it: NOT Oriental human subraces, but rather a warm-climate, dusty-part-desert old and decadent slave empire ruled by people who had mastered powerful magic, shaved their heads (think: Moondragon of Marvel Comics fame), and were cruel by western standards. There was a power struggle of sorts between royalty and nobility on one hand, and these magic-strong zulkirs on the other, with tharchions (and tharchionesses) being regional governors that in the old days were “patronage appointments” given to nobles by reigning royalty, and that were increasingly being seized by zulkirs and filled by themselves or their (militarily capable, ruthless) appointees. Szass Tam was a bit of a restless maverick among the zulkirs, so to stay on top against BOTH his fellow zulkirs and the royalty, he’d have to be super-powerful, and a man who’d been anticipating attacks and treacheries for centuries and preparing for them: he always had a Plan B and C, and X, Y, and Z, all of which he could shift like puzzle pieces to respond to any threat and deflect or shatter it (usually deflect it so as to harm a rival)."
Lord Karsus
03-03-08, 02:49 AM -They were just like the Smurfs are.
Another Gnome
03-03-08, 04:58 AM Don't be silly, everyone knows the Red Wizards are an allegory to this (http://www.yagotta.ca/images/rcmpmarch.jpg).
Lord Karsus
03-03-08, 06:44 AM Don't be silly, everyone knows the Red Wizards are an allegory to this (http://www.yagotta.ca/images/rcmpmarch.jpg).

-Whenever I see a Mounty, I always think of the WWF wrestler of the same namesake. Heh, good times, those.
The Ubbergeek
03-03-08, 09:31 AM Don't be silly, everyone knows the Red Wizards are an allegory to this (http://www.yagotta.ca/images/rcmpmarch.jpg).

Wouldn't that be the Purple knights of Cormyr? ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
03-03-08, 01:20 PM So, Ubbergeek, you thought the Thayans were a bunch of COMMIES?

Ha ha ha!
The Ubbergeek
03-03-08, 06:31 PM So, Ubbergeek, you thought the Thayans were a bunch of COMMIES?

Ha ha ha!

To be serious.... a bit.

Now, I means... Greenwood seems to be learned. Probably a 'liberal' by the american sense (I see him voting for the federal Liberals, even the NDP perhaps). And he was a child of the Cold War era. So, I wondered if there was not, under it, also some political commentary disguised against the USSR.

*shrugs*
MarkusTay63
03-03-08, 11:21 PM "The Red Menace" - LOL :D
Dark Wizard
03-03-08, 11:22 PM Thay represents very little of communist ideals and one of their main enemies, Rasheman, is actually the closest to Russia in vibe. Like Ed said, Thay just fits into the generic easterly slave empire ruled by power hungry magicians. Certainly in some fantasy literature, such empire archetypes did represent the big bad Soviet Union on occasion, but not all of them.

Sometimes red is just a striking color.

If you're looking for analogies, there are other places to look for them in the Realms.
Another Gnome
03-04-08, 06:33 AM Seriously, the Red Army didn't actually wear red, while the color of their clothes is the only thing red about the Wizards.

Also:

"Red" refers to the blood of the working class in its struggle against capitalism.
Jiggawha
03-04-08, 11:43 AM Red Wizards are racist elitists, so nothing close
MarkusTay63
03-04-08, 12:34 PM Its the Soviet brand of Communism, not the Chinese. ;)

"All are equal, but some are equaller then others"

--- George Orwell
Lord Karsus
03-04-08, 01:17 PM Seriously, the Red Army didn't actually wear red, while the color of their clothes is the only thing red about the Wizards.

-An Army wearing red (especially in a region that is more or less dominated by white most of the time), is pretty counterproductive. The only benefit wearing red gives you is the slight psychological benefit that enemies cannot clearly see when you are bleeding.
Khaelieth
03-04-08, 06:30 PM -An Army wearing red (especially in a region that is more or less dominated by white most of the time), is pretty counterproductive. The only benefit wearing red gives you is the slight psychological benefit that enemies cannot clearly see when you are bleeding.

Well, only medieval scouts were cameoflagued (sp?). i can see an army of Thayans dressed in red.
Lord Karsus
03-04-08, 06:34 PM Well, only medieval scouts were cameoflagued (sp?).

-I'm talking about the 'modern era'. That's why the "Red Coats' wore Red Coats.

-A ha! Perhaps Thay is representative of England, being all imperialistic, establishing colonies (Enclaves) all over the rest of the world, having a group of leaders that (Zukirs) were more or less figureheads, because the true power was in the hands of the Crown (Szass Tam).
The_Shaman
03-06-08, 06:59 AM To me, Thay was closest to Stygia from the Conan epos.
1 ton ghost
03-06-08, 01:30 PM Thay kinda' mirrors the Soviet regime in that the zulkirs are a bit of an approximation of the Politburo. that is, they had alot of wealth and privledge while everyone else, uh, didn't.
otherwise, they're pretty fascist w/ each Tharch being a land onto itself and asnwerable to the Tharcion therein. for the most part, Evil being the bread and butter, despotism is the operative word. secret police like the East German Stassi would abound. this is especially scary when coupled w/ the legal authority to Scry and use other divinations whenever the Hell they want. in short, a police state where paranoia is very rampant.
i imagine Priador would've been the worst given its immense wealth in Bezantur and the ruler was also a zulkir. boy, did Byers butcher that one; killing off Thrull in such an incredibly stupid plot hook was hack writing and not in form w/ typical Thayan policy.
Another Gnome
03-06-08, 04:39 PM Thay kinda' mirrors the Soviet regime in that the zulkirs are a bit of an approximation of the Politburo. that is, they had alot of wealth and privledge while everyone else, uh, didn't.

Damn, that would be like living in a country where 1% of the population controls 40% of wealth and 40% of the population owns less than 1% of the total. It's a good thing that doesn't happen in real life. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
03-06-08, 06:18 PM boy, did Byers butcher that one; killing off Thrull in such an incredibly stupid plot hook was hack writing and not in form w/ typical Thayan policy.

I think it's always important to remember (especially in these particular "times of upheaval") that the authors can never make changes to the setting without WotC's consent, and sometimes the changes are in fact WotC's idea--the author has no choice but to follow through with it.

My point? Let's not blame the authors too much for changes we hate.
MarkusTay63
03-06-08, 11:59 PM I think lately - and mind you, this is just my opinion - the authors are given assignments, rather then just writing whatever they want. Sort of like what happened to RAS when he had to kill off Chewie.

Whats stupid about this is that instead of having stories evolve naturally, as they do by other authors in other settings (and not just game), we have an artificial mechanism in place -

"Hey <insert author here>, I need you to have this country's government change, I need these three guys dead, and oh yeah... I neeed you to throw in a silly love affair and at least one big 'monster fight'."

"Does it need to make sense?"

"No, it needs to be done by next month..."

"Okay... I'll make sure I don't put any thought into it then"

Thats meant to de tongue-in-cheek, but the scarey part is that I can see it happening along very similar lines. If you read Ed's 'notes' in the Annotated Elminster, you get a very good idea of how much direction they get, and how much of it is 'forced' into the story, just because of designer's clandestine plans.

Thats why I prefer novels that have NOTHING to do with game settings - the story can go anywhere and do anything, and its all up to the author's imagination, not some set of guidlines handed out by a corporation.
Lord Karsus
03-07-08, 06:24 AM I think lately - and mind you, this is just my opinion - the authors are given assignments, rather then just writing whatever they want. Sort of like what happened to RAS when he had to kill off Chewie.

-I agree, because if you take a look at the 'differences' between most novels published recently, and, say, most novels published ten years ago...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
03-07-08, 12:32 PM "Okay... I'll make sure I don't put any though into it then"

I feel a twinge of guilt for laughing at this, but...it's damn funny! :rofl:
1 ton ghost
03-07-08, 01:13 PM I think it's always important to remember (especially in these particular "times of upheaval") that the authors can never make changes to the setting without WotC's consent, and sometimes the changes are in fact WotC's idea--the author has no choice but to follow through with it.

My point? Let's not blame the authors too much for changes we hate.

that is a good point so forgive me if i spoke out of place. some reasons being: my editor is an ass, no one wants to compromise artistic licesne and become another company man, and...we have bills to pay.
i've enjoyed some of his other work, it's just there are so many gaps and questionable writing in "Unclean", it broke my heart. i had such high hopes too given it's a culture rarely touched on and has great potential.
but it's not like they publish the interviews or creative process that went into the manuscript. that is, we'll never know why the good was good or the bad was bad. they would rather just collect our $ to keep making those books...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
03-07-08, 01:16 PM If you thought Unclean was sad, you ought to check out the Lady Penitent series. :-/

What Markus said has truth in it--sometimes authors are simply told what changes to introduce, and they have to do that in whatever way is expedient. That is quite evident in the aforementioned LP novels.
Faraer
03-07-08, 05:05 PM Thats why I prefer novels that have NOTHING to do with game settings - the story can go anywhere and do anything, and its all up to the author's imagination, not some set of guidlines handed out by a corporation.Shared worlds don't equate to an overheavy editorial hand. If the Realms novel line better respected the Realms as a game setting, there'd be less clumsy metaplot and big-event direction.
Soltares
03-09-08, 05:42 AM There was a power struggle of sorts between royalty and nobility on one hand, and these magic-strong zulkirs on the other, with tharchions (and tharchionesses) being regional governors

And before the regional governors could gain power, the Zulkirs had to dissolve the Senate.

Oh wait. That one doesn't work either, because the Red Wizards would have had to kill every other magic-user in Thay, and have only a couple left at the top of the heirarchy.
MarkusTay63
03-09-08, 02:01 PM And before the regional governors could gain power, the Zulkirs had to dissolve the Senate.Now it sounds like Star Wars... :rolleyes:
The_Shaman
03-09-08, 08:04 PM Should I insert a "Dark Side of the Art" joke here?
Soltares
03-10-08, 07:53 AM Should I insert a "Dark Side of the Art" joke here?

Shadow Weave. Been there, ripped that off.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Ubbergeek 03-02-08, 09:03 PM	You know, I had an epiphany, a strange idea running in my head long ago... Red wizards. A distant eastern country. Hard dictature (albeit no discernable head directly). A somewhat decentralised, rational political organisation. They led incursions around. The 'bureaus' and 'offices' fight a lot. ... Was Thay in Ed Greenwood a subtile alegory of the USSR originaly?
Old Sage 03-02-08, 09:59 PM	No. So saith Ed [July '06]:- "Thay was my Orient, or as close as the Realms was going to get to it: NOT Oriental human subraces, but rather a warm-climate, dusty-part-desert old and decadent slave empire ruled by people who had mastered powerful magic, shaved their heads (think: Moondragon of Marvel Comics fame), and were cruel by western standards. There was a power struggle of sorts between royalty and nobility on one hand, and these magic-strong zulkirs on the other, with tharchions (and tharchionesses) being regional governors that in the old days were “patronage appointments” given to nobles by reigning royalty, and that were increasingly being seized by zulkirs and filled by themselves or their (militarily capable, ruthless) appointees. Szass Tam was a bit of a restless maverick among the zulkirs, so to stay on top against BOTH his fellow zulkirs and the royalty, he’d have to be super-powerful, and a man who’d been anticipating attacks and treacheries for centuries and preparing for them: he always had a Plan B and C, and X, Y, and Z, all of which he could shift like puzzle pieces to respond to any threat and deflect or shatter it (usually deflect it so as to harm a rival)."
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 02:49 AM	-They were just like the Smurfs are.
Another Gnome 03-03-08, 04:58 AM	Don't be silly, everyone knows the Red Wizards are an allegory to this (http://www.yagotta.ca/images/rcmpmarch.jpg).
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 06:44 AM	Don't be silly, everyone knows the Red Wizards are an allegory to this (http://www.yagotta.ca/images/rcmpmarch.jpg). -Whenever I see a Mounty, I always think of the WWF wrestler of the same namesake. Heh, good times, those.
The Ubbergeek 03-03-08, 09:31 AM	Don't be silly, everyone knows the Red Wizards are an allegory to this (http://www.yagotta.ca/images/rcmpmarch.jpg). Wouldn't that be the Purple knights of Cormyr? ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 01:20 PM	So, Ubbergeek, you thought the Thayans were a bunch of COMMIES? Ha ha ha!
The Ubbergeek 03-03-08, 06:31 PM	So, Ubbergeek, you thought the Thayans were a bunch of COMMIES? Ha ha ha! To be serious.... a bit. Now, I means... Greenwood seems to be learned. Probably a 'liberal' by the american sense (I see him voting for the federal Liberals, even the NDP perhaps). And he was a child of the Cold War era. So, I wondered if there was not, under it, also some political commentary disguised against the USSR. shrugs
MarkusTay63 03-03-08, 11:21 PM	"The Red Menace" - LOL :D
Dark Wizard 03-03-08, 11:22 PM	Thay represents very little of communist ideals and one of their main enemies, Rasheman, is actually the closest to Russia in vibe. Like Ed said, Thay just fits into the generic easterly slave empire ruled by power hungry magicians. Certainly in some fantasy literature, such empire archetypes did represent the big bad Soviet Union on occasion, but not all of them. Sometimes red is just a striking color. If you're looking for analogies, there are other places to look for them in the Realms.
Another Gnome 03-04-08, 06:33 AM	Seriously, the Red Army didn't actually wear red, while the color of their clothes is the only thing red about the Wizards. Also: "Red" refers to the blood of the working class in its struggle against capitalism.
Jiggawha 03-04-08, 11:43 AM	Red Wizards are racist elitists, so nothing close
MarkusTay63 03-04-08, 12:34 PM	Its the Soviet brand of Communism, not the Chinese. ;) "All are equal, but some are equaller then others" --- George Orwell
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 01:17 PM	Seriously, the Red Army didn't actually wear red, while the color of their clothes is the only thing red about the Wizards. -An Army wearing red (especially in a region that is more or less dominated by white most of the time), is pretty counterproductive. The only benefit wearing red gives you is the slight psychological benefit that enemies cannot clearly see when you are bleeding.
Khaelieth 03-04-08, 06:30 PM	-An Army wearing red (especially in a region that is more or less dominated by white most of the time), is pretty counterproductive. The only benefit wearing red gives you is the slight psychological benefit that enemies cannot clearly see when you are bleeding. Well, only medieval scouts were cameoflagued (sp?). i can see an army of Thayans dressed in red.
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 06:34 PM	Well, only medieval scouts were cameoflagued (sp?). -I'm talking about the 'modern era'. That's why the "Red Coats' wore Red Coats. -A ha! Perhaps Thay is representative of England, being all imperialistic, establishing colonies (Enclaves) all over the rest of the world, having a group of leaders that (Zukirs) were more or less figureheads, because the true power was in the hands of the Crown (Szass Tam).
The_Shaman 03-06-08, 06:59 AM	To me, Thay was closest to Stygia from the Conan epos.
1 ton ghost 03-06-08, 01:30 PM	Thay kinda' mirrors the Soviet regime in that the zulkirs are a bit of an approximation of the Politburo. that is, they had alot of wealth and privledge while everyone else, uh, didn't. otherwise, they're pretty fascist w/ each Tharch being a land onto itself and asnwerable to the Tharcion therein. for the most part, Evil being the bread and butter, despotism is the operative word. secret police like the East German Stassi would abound. this is especially scary when coupled w/ the legal authority to Scry and use other divinations whenever the Hell they want. in short, a police state where paranoia is very rampant. i imagine Priador would've been the worst given its immense wealth in Bezantur and the ruler was also a zulkir. boy, did Byers butcher that one; killing off Thrull in such an incredibly stupid plot hook was hack writing and not in form w/ typical Thayan policy.
Another Gnome 03-06-08, 04:39 PM	Thay kinda' mirrors the Soviet regime in that the zulkirs are a bit of an approximation of the Politburo. that is, they had alot of wealth and privledge while everyone else, uh, didn't. Damn, that would be like living in a country where 1% of the population controls 40% of wealth and 40% of the population owns less than 1% of the total. It's a good thing that doesn't happen in real life. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 06:18 PM	boy, did Byers butcher that one; killing off Thrull in such an incredibly stupid plot hook was hack writing and not in form w/ typical Thayan policy. I think it's always important to remember (especially in these particular "times of upheaval") that the authors can never make changes to the setting without WotC's consent, and sometimes the changes are in fact WotC's idea--the author has no choice but to follow through with it. My point? Let's not blame the authors too much for changes we hate.
MarkusTay63 03-06-08, 11:59 PM	I think lately - and mind you, this is just my opinion - the authors are given assignments, rather then just writing whatever they want. Sort of like what happened to RAS when he had to kill off Chewie. Whats stupid about this is that instead of having stories evolve naturally, as they do by other authors in other settings (and not just game), we have an artificial mechanism in place - "Hey <insert author here>, I need you to have this country's government change, I need these three guys dead, and oh yeah... I neeed you to throw in a silly love affair and at least one big 'monster fight'." "Does it need to make sense?" "No, it needs to be done by next month..." "Okay... I'll make sure I don't put any thought into it then" Thats meant to de tongue-in-cheek, but the scarey part is that I can see it happening along very similar lines. If you read Ed's 'notes' in the Annotated Elminster, you get a very good idea of how much direction they get, and how much of it is 'forced' into the story, just because of designer's clandestine plans. Thats why I prefer novels that have NOTHING to do with game settings - the story can go anywhere and do anything, and its all up to the author's imagination, not some set of guidlines handed out by a corporation.
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 06:24 AM	I think lately - and mind you, this is just my opinion - the authors are given assignments, rather then just writing whatever they want. Sort of like what happened to RAS when he had to kill off Chewie. -I agree, because if you take a look at the 'differences' between most novels published recently, and, say, most novels published ten years ago...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-07-08, 12:32 PM	"Okay... I'll make sure I don't put any though into it then" I feel a twinge of guilt for laughing at this, but...it's damn funny! :rofl:
1 ton ghost 03-07-08, 01:13 PM	I think it's always important to remember (especially in these particular "times of upheaval") that the authors can never make changes to the setting without WotC's consent, and sometimes the changes are in fact WotC's idea--the author has no choice but to follow through with it. My point? Let's not blame the authors too much for changes we hate. that is a good point so forgive me if i spoke out of place. some reasons being: my editor is an ass, no one wants to compromise artistic licesne and become another company man, and...we have bills to pay. i've enjoyed some of his other work, it's just there are so many gaps and questionable writing in "Unclean", it broke my heart. i had such high hopes too given it's a culture rarely touched on and has great potential. but it's not like they publish the interviews or creative process that went into the manuscript. that is, we'll never know why the good was good or the bad was bad. they would rather just collect our $ to keep making those books...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-07-08, 01:16 PM	If you thought Unclean was sad, you ought to check out the Lady Penitent series. :-/ What Markus said has truth in it--sometimes authors are simply told what changes to introduce, and they have to do that in whatever way is expedient. That is quite evident in the aforementioned LP novels.
Faraer 03-07-08, 05:05 PM	Thats why I prefer novels that have NOTHING to do with game settings - the story can go anywhere and do anything, and its all up to the author's imagination, not some set of guidlines handed out by a corporation.Shared worlds don't equate to an overheavy editorial hand. If the Realms novel line better respected the Realms as a game setting, there'd be less clumsy metaplot and big-event direction.
Soltares 03-09-08, 05:42 AM	There was a power struggle of sorts between royalty and nobility on one hand, and these magic-strong zulkirs on the other, with tharchions (and tharchionesses) being regional governors And before the regional governors could gain power, the Zulkirs had to dissolve the Senate. Oh wait. That one doesn't work either, because the Red Wizards would have had to kill every other magic-user in Thay, and have only a couple left at the top of the heirarchy.
MarkusTay63 03-09-08, 02:01 PM	And before the regional governors could gain power, the Zulkirs had to dissolve the Senate.Now it sounds like Star Wars... :rolleyes:
The_Shaman 03-09-08, 08:04 PM	Should I insert a "Dark Side of the Art" joke here?
Soltares 03-10-08, 07:53 AM	Should I insert a "Dark Side of the Art" joke here? Shadow Weave. Been there, ripped that off.