Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shiftkitty 02-23-08, 08:34 PM	Why did the Ilythiiri oppose the unification of the Satyrwood? All the GHotR says is that the realms of Thearnytaar, Eiellur, and Syorpiir held discussions on the unification and that the Ilythiiri sent in assassins to thwart it.
Khaelieth 02-23-08, 08:46 PM	Why did the Ilythiiri oppose the unification of the Satyrwood? All the GHotR says is that the realms of Thearnytaar, Eiellur, and Syorpiir held discussions on the unification and that the Ilythiiri sent in assassins to thwart it. "Divide and conquer." Used by Brits and Romans alike and known to work!
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 08:47 PM	Why did the Ilythiiri oppose the unification of the Satyrwood? All the GHotR says is that the realms of Thearnytaar, Eiellur, and Syorpiir held discussions on the unification and that the Ilythiiri sent in assassins to thwart it. -The unification of the Satyrwood would have produce another Elven city-state with some degree of power, which would have lessened the influence Ilythiir had in the Elven world. Furthermore, the Illythiiri were just a bunch of :censored:s.
MarkusTay63 02-24-08, 01:41 AM	Because the Ilythiiri realized that if the other Elves banded together and got too powerful, as they did in the North, they would attack and take their ancestral homelands from them - just as they did in the North. Thats like asking why the CIA worked for forty years to divide the Soviet Union up, back into smaller states - in unity there is strength, and where there is strength, there is contention. What the Illythiir did was nothing more then a brilliant piece of espionage, which ALL soveriegn bodies do in order to protect themselves from possible future threats. It really depends on how you look at things, eh LK? or what color 'rose lens' we wish to view things through. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 12:40 PM	It really depends on how you look at things, eh LK? or what color 'rose lens' we wish to view things through. ;) -Not really. There is an objective truth here. The Illithiiri (those who ruled their nation) were evil- trafficking with demons and devils, consorting with evil deities...
Shiftkitty 02-24-08, 01:38 PM	Did they do this before or after the War of the Three Leaves? I don't see anything that casts the Ilythiiri in a bad light before this. One nation doesn't normally take on three without cause.
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 02:09 PM	Did they do this before or after the War of the Three Leaves? I don't see anything that casts the Ilythiiri in a bad light before this. One nation doesn't normally take on three without cause. -The Ilythiiri were consorting with Lolth long before this. Ka'Narlist, leader of Atornash, the predacessor of the Ilythiiri empire, served as Lolth's consort, until he and his city were washed away by the Sundering. Before that, he and his fellow Dark Elves served Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur. Not very nice deities.
Green Elven Vampire 02-24-08, 02:30 PM	-The Ilythiiri were consorting with Lolth long before this. Ka'Narlist, leader of Atornash, the predacessor of the Ilythiiri empire, served as Lolth's consort, until he and his city were washed away by the Sundering. Before that, he and his fellow Dark Elves served Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur. Not very nice deities. I wouldn't say Vhaeraun is utterly evil. Ghaunadaur on the other hand is a very ancient and powerful evil. Ka'Narlist... one of the most powerful wizards to ever grace Faerun placed the standard for coming generations of the Ilythiiri empire.
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 02:47 PM	I wouldn't say Vhaeraun is utterly evil. -I would. He's a different type of CE, but he's still evil to the core. Ka'Narlist... one of the most powerful wizards to ever grace Faerun placed the standard for coming generations of the Ilythiiri empire. -That, he did.
GothicDan 02-24-08, 11:21 PM	-The Ilythiiri were consorting with Lolth long before this. Ka'Narlist, leader of Atornash, the predacessor of the Ilythiiri empire, served as Lolth's consort, until he and his city were washed away by the Sundering. Before that, he and his fellow Dark Elves served Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur. Not very nice deities. And I'm pretty sure Atorrnash had Faerie Elf slaves, too. They also delved into spirit necromancy (of the black kind), and, as pointed out, they cavorted with dark deities before even Lolth came to them. This is only one of what I propose were the city states that eventually merged into Ilythiir, but it would be a very strange cultural diversion if the other city states weren't similar, at least.
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 11:42 PM	And I'm pretty sure Atorrnash had Faerie Elf slaves, too. They also delved into spirit necromancy (of the black kind), and, as pointed out, they cavorted with dark deities before even Lolth came to them. -Correct on all three points. This is only one of what I propose were the city states that eventually merged into Ilythiir, but it would be a very strange cultural diversion if the other city states weren't similar, at least. -What I conceptualized, and what I'll eventually be using in my essays on the matter, is Ka'Narlist Illythiir led the Dark Elves to Faerūn, from the Plane of Faerie, in order to conquer. The Dark Elves emerged in the Dagon Baronies, and immediatley went to work slaughtering a settlement of Ooze Wyrms. In the process, two things happened. One, they sent a message to the other Dragon barons that they were not a group to be messed with, and two, in slaughtering these Ooze Wyrms, Ghaunadaur appeared to Ka'Narlist. This explains how the Archmage came to have Ghaunadaur as his patron, while most other Dark Elves worshipped Vhaeraun. -Attornash was the major Dark Elven enclave on Faerūn, with a few smaller states, governed by relatives of Ka'Narlist, other Illythiiri clansmen and women, but were close to Attornash, as being too far removed the circle of influence that the major city and Archmage gave off, thus making them targets of the Dragon barons in the region. -The Sundering happened, and Attornash, along with it's resident Archmage, were swept away in the destruction. Daerden Illythiir, a younger cousin of Ka'Narlist, rose to prominence as the Dark Elves were 'picking up the pieces', and, back by a dark and mysterious power (Lolth), he forged what would become the Ilythiiri Empire. -Opinions?
Zireael 02-25-08, 02:33 AM	I seem to recall that the Dark Elves were originally Elves the same as the others, and they all came from Faerie with Durothil.
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 02:36 AM	I seem to recall that the Dark Elves were originally Elves the same as the others, and they all came from Faerie with Durothil. -Incorrect. The Dark Elves came to Faerūn circa -27,000 DR, around the same time the Green (Wood) Elves and most likely the Avariel and the Lythari. The survivors of Tingageer, the Moon Elves and the Sun Elves would arrive some two thousand years later.
Zireael 02-25-08, 02:56 AM	I think those were Sy'Tel'Quessir, Aril', and Ly'. No mention of Ssri'Tel'Quessir anywhere, as far as I know.
GothicDan 02-25-08, 09:49 AM	No. According to Races of Faerun, the Moon and Sun Elves were actually the last to arrive, with jives perfectly with Elaine's novel, showing the Dark Elves and Wood Elves already fully established in Faerun by the time the Faerie Elves arrived from Tintageer.
GothicDan 02-25-08, 09:51 AM	-What I conceptualized, and what I'll eventually be using in my essays on the matter, is Ka'Narlist Illythiir led the Dark Elves to Faerūn, from the Plane of Faerie, in order to conquer. The Dark Elves emerged in the Dagon Baronies, and immediatley went to work slaughtering a settlement of Ooze Wyrms. In the process, two things happened. One, they sent a message to the other Dragon barons that they were not a group to be messed with, and two, in slaughtering these Ooze Wyrms, Ghaunadaur appeared to Ka'Narlist. This explains how the Archmage came to have Ghaunadaur as his patron, while most other Dark Elves worshipped Vhaeraun. I prefer if Ka'Narlist had actually been only one of the powers that brought the Ssri-Tel'Quessir into Ilythiir. Perhaps a former magocratic council, and he was one of the major players, and then the promises of Ghaunadaur were only all the sweeter when he sought to seize total control? And... Change the name of Ooze Wyrms, please. Statim. -The Sundering happened, and Attornash, along with it's resident Archmage, were swept away in the destruction. Daerden Illythiir, a younger cousin of Ka'Narlist, rose to prominence as the Dark Elves were 'picking up the pieces', and, back by a dark and mysterious power (Lolth), he forged what would become the Ilythiiri Empire. I like that. Though I still like the idea of fragment Mage-based sort of rebels pervading Ilythiiri society to break up total authoritarianism of the Lolth-worshiping imperial family. (We know that not all Sun Elves of Aryvandaar agreed with Vyshaan, too, for example.) Also, perhaps some 'freedom fighters' from Miyeritar, in the form of later worshipers of Eilistraee, trying to free the "oppressed" people of the South, and forced to ally at times with these secret rebellious 'mage lords'?
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 12:33 PM	I think those were Sy'Tel'Quessir, Aril', and Ly'. No mention of Ssri'Tel'Quessir anywhere, as far as I know. -Page eight of AGHotR clearly states this. I prefer if Ka'Narlist had actually been only one of the powers that brought the Ssri-Tel'Quessir into Ilythiir. Perhaps a former magocratic council, and he was one of the major players, and then the promises of Ghaunadaur were only all the sweeter when he sought to seize total control? -Ka'Narlist was the undisputed leader of Attornash. Not all Dark Elves left Faerie to come to Faerūn, however. Markus is the one doing research and work cemeting various myths and stories, to get a working sense of what the Dark Elves of Faerie were (are) like. Back of Faerie, I, too, envision a council of elders, or something to that effect, ruling over the Dark Elves. I never intended Ka'Narlist to be a member of this council, hence the reason why he leaves. In his ambition, he felt that the Dark Elves ruled their niche of Faerie for too long, and thus, wanted to empose his will over some new land. Deciding the council a bunch of fools, he gathers members of his own family, mercenaries, and whoever else, and comes to Faerūn. -While E:IoE mentions Ilythiiri, there is no real evidence to demonstrate that the empire was very much...anything. Hence, I have it's first incarnation as mostly Attornash, with a couple of satilite towns and cities, none matching it's grandeur, and it's second incarnation, as the empire that would go one to become a major power player. And... Change the name of Ooze Wyrms, please. Statim. -That's what they are called in the Draconomicon. Ooze Drakes, more specifically. Can't do anything about that. Though I still like the idea of fragment Mage-based sort of rebels pervading Ilythiiri society to break up total authoritarianism of the Lolth-worshiping imperial family. -These are Drow we are talking about, here. Or, rather, those who would become Drow. While there is no doubt in my mind that there were various factions vying for power, none of that comes into play just yet. Ka'Narlist was the undisputed ruler of Attornash, and the pre-Ilythiiri Empire. Afterwards, as there's plenty of time, anything can happen, and I don't forsee myself going into the specifics of thosands of years.
Vulpes 02-25-08, 10:19 PM	Weren't Dark Elves just dark-complected Wood Elves at this point in history?
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 11:15 PM	Weren't Dark Elves just dark-complected Wood Elves at this point in history? -A (semi)retcon I ignore. Just like how Wild Elves and Wood Elves aren't the same thing.
Vulpes 02-26-08, 12:03 AM	-A (semi)retcon I ignore. Just like how Wild Elves and Wood Elves aren't the same thing. What were they before? Just their own thing, a subrace of dusky-skinned elves?
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 12:17 AM	What were they before? Just their own thing, a subrace of dusky-skinned elves? -Yes. -Elves of Faerūn has an excellent piece on their theoretical society.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 01:16 AM	-There's also a lot of good information in this thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=825000
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 12:57 PM	What were they before? Just their own thing, a subrace of dusky-skinned elves?And technically, the Dark Elves were just an even darker version of this group of Sylvan Elves that came first. The group of 'rustic' Elves came to Toril a full 2600 years ahead of the 'others'. I would also lump in my theoretical group of 'Brown (nomadic) Elves' with these. All of them believed in living closer to nature, and had the dark, dusky skin coloring in various hues. Later, they would have split up, as all groups eventually do, into the subraces we know. The main tribes would become the sub-races of today, and they in turn would further fracture into smaller groups as they spread out over the two and a half millenia before the arrival of the Gray (Eladrin) Elves. It really makes sense now, in 4e terms - the Elves we know are divided into the two groups we know travelled to Toril, and all others stem from them. The Lythari probably came over with the first group, but I'm not sure about the Avariels. They appear to look and act more like the second grouping, but according to E:IoE they were already here when the refugees fled Tintageer. My own take - The avariel were a group of Eladrin that left Tintageer/Faerie centuries before the disaster struck, probably around the same time the Sylvan Elves left, and went to Mystara (and perhaps they developed their wings on that world, do to the strange properties of Cinnabar). Either way, I figure they probably came over from there to Toril around -25000 or so. Who knows why they left? Perhaps they had a war with the Pegataurs... Anyway, we've been down this road before, a hundred times, and there is NO proof that the Dark Elves were evil prior to the Crown Wars. Ka'Narlist was obviously an OUTCAST, because if you read that novel correctly, he and his followers were living on the very edge of Illythiiri lands. If he was their leader, or someone important, he would have been closer to the center of power. Obviously, the Dark Elves of that time would have found many of his practices abominable, so he setup shop as far from prying eyes as he could. Saying the Dark Elves in those Days were Evil is like saying all Germans - or even all humans - are evil because of the existance of Hitler. You cannot blame an entire race for one f___ing A-hole! MUCH later on, I would have to agree, and as the Crown wars escalated, BOTH sides needed to turn to bigger and badder 'help', as it were. Think of it as a magical 'Arms Race' - with Outsiders being the equivalent of Nukes. There was no right or wrong in the end, only a whole lot of dead Elves. :(
18DELTA 02-26-08, 01:11 PM	-Thanks guys for this disscussion.:D 18DELTA:)
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 01:58 PM	My own take - The avariel were a group of Eladrin that left Tintageer/Faerie centuries before the disaster struck, probably around the same time the Sylvan Elves left, and went to Mystara (and perhaps they developed their wings on that world, do to the strange properties of Cinnabar). -The Avariel were created by Aerdrie Faenya. Ka'Narlist was obviously an OUTCAST, because if you read that novel correctly, he and his followers were living on the very edge of Illythiiri lands. -That is incorrect. Evermeet: Island of the Elves specifically mentions that Attornash was "perched at the edge of the sea" (The Bay of Banshees), but nothing more. No other mentions of any other Dark Elf settlements anywhere are made during that period of time.
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 05:39 PM	Who's the Geographer here? ;) Trust me, Ka'Narlist was living on the edge, in more ways then one. He may have opened 'Pandora's Box', and later generations built upon the lore of evil magical might he discovered, but I've read that part of the book THREE times, and his whole character just screams LONER to me. He was a glimpse at what Dark Elves WOULD become, not what they were. Unlike the Gray (Gold and Silver) Elves who arrived later, and began commiting henious acts the minute they arrived. C'mon... how can you POSSIBLY defend the Elves?! :uh-huh: They basically arrived on a world that wasn't theirs, and Terraformed it to suit their needs, even though there were already HUNDREDS of other races already living there. Did they give a s__t that they pretty much drowned half the planet and wiped out entire species? Hell No! They're Elves, and they just do whatever the f__k they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want. After screwing up their OWN world, they show up and start the same exact crap that destroyed it, casting those faulty High-Magic rituals and wreaking utter devastation on nature. Elves DON'T do that - they work WITH nature. I guess the designers see it my way too, and they didn't feel that second group were Elves either. :P
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 05:53 PM	Who's the Geographer here? ;) -Which means nothing. The editor of a book can edit and lay the entire thing out, and not have a clue about the content he/she is organizing. Trust me, Ka'Narlist was living on the edge, in more ways then one. He may have opened 'Pandora's Box', and later generations built upon the lore of evil magical might he discovered, but I've read that part of the book THREE times, and his whole character just screams LONER to me. -Be that as it may, there is no mention anywhere of any other Dark Elves on Faerūn during that timer period, except for Attornash. -And, three times? Please, let's not start boasting...;) C'mon... how can you POSSIBLY defend the Elves?! :uh-huh: After screwing up their OWN world, they show up and start the same exact crap that destroyed it, casting those faulty High-Magic ritual and wreaking utter devastation on nature. -So did your precious Dark Elves. Read Evermeet: Island of the Elves, page 113. It specifically mentions that Attornash was created via the use of magic (Elven High Magic, in all likelihood) that rearranged the face of the earth, to create and fill in the Bay of Banshees.
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 06:53 PM	I thought you were the one who said Dark Elves couldn't cast High Magic Rituals, hmmmm? I only read the parts with dark Elves three times... its so hard for me to stomache the rest. :P That is is no indication of Elaine's writing BTW - it was only because of her excellent prose that I was able to make it through it at all. Also, her novel is not 100% accurate, because there are certain decrepencies. In fact, she made THE classic mistake, throughout the book, by calling the Silver Elves 'Gray', when the Silver Elves are actually FR's 'High Elves'. The Gray ones are the aloof (Gold) ones. She did an amazing job reconciling a lot of disparate lore, but the book is far from perfect, so stop using it as the Elven Bible. (;) ) Sharlario came from THE NORTH - if you look at the map on page 13 of the GHotR, Illythiir basically occupied modern day Dambrath (how appropriate, eh?). The ONLY coast it had was TO THE SOUTH. Duroithil encounters Attornash FIRST, before running into any other Illythiir Elves - and there were plenty of others, as told by Eilistraee (or are you calling her a liar?). Eilistraee told Sharlario that MOST of the Dark Elves worshipped Vhaeraun... and yet, Ka'Narlist disavows anything to do with Vaeraun and his worshippers - ATTORNASH was a Ghaunadar City! That means Attornash had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the majority of the Dark Elves! Now reference the map on pg. 6 - Attornash was on the coast, along the path Sharlario was taking while exploring and traveling SOUTH. That means Attornash should have been somewhere on the Shining Sea, probably quite close to the Lake of Steam. The northeastern most territory that was still considered 'Illythiiri Lands' was where Athamault was located... right near the Lake of Steam. Sharlario did NOT travel by boat, he walked, which means he would have encountered Attornash as far to the north of Illythiir proper as possible. On that map, there is a long bay right to the left of the 'B' in 'Batrachi Empires". It is connected to the ancient Lake of Steam - however, it doesn't exist on later maps... almost as if someone filled in the bay. :eek: -Which means nothing. The editor of a book can edit and lay the entire thing out, and not have a clue about the content he/she is organizing.Why bring the Designers into this? :confused:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 07:02 PM	C'mon... how can you POSSIBLY defend the Elves?! :uh-huh: How could he not? Come on, you've been here long enough.;)
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 07:16 PM	I suppose we are both creatures of habit, and neither one of is going to change. But at least I'm willing to admit the current version of my favored race is evil. ;) In fact, I've already figured out that it was really the Elves that were behind the whole 'Death of Mystra'... it wouldn't be the first time they tried to kill her. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 09:01 PM	I only read the parts with dark Elves three times... its so hard for me to stomache the rest. :P That is is no indication of Elaine's writing BTW - it was only because of her excellent prose that I was able to make it through it at all. I sorta kinda felt the same way, although perhaps for different reasons. The Evermeet novel, sadly, actually caused me to like and respect Amlaruil and Zaor less than I did before I read it. I also caused me to lose interest in moonblades! LK, I was sorely tempted (by my "evil" side) to chime in the discussion in Elaine's thread on Candlekeep (you are Dagniron, right?) regarding how some of the princes and princesses were considered unfit to rule and were quietly removed from court life. I womight have said that if someone like Zaor was considered fit to rule, then the Ruler's Blade can't be all that picky.:P
GothicDan 02-26-08, 09:05 PM	Evermeet remains my favorite FR novel. <3 Elaine. Marry me.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 09:08 PM	Evermeet remains my favorite FR novel. <3 Elaine. Marry me. Don't get me wrong, I thought the novel was well-written, and I liked many of the other characters (and I especially enjoyed the earlier parts of the book). But Zaor and especially Amlaruil really...rubbed me the wrong way in that book. And unfortunately, that couple was the book's "centerpiece".
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 09:14 PM	I thought you were the one who said Dark Elves couldn't cast High Magic Rituals, hmmmm? -I never contested that Dark Elves could cast High magic rituals. Drow, however, can not. Drow and Dark Elves are not one and the same, in the context we are referencing them. In fact, she made THE classic mistake, throughout the book, by calling the Silver Elves 'Gray', when the Silver Elves are actually FR's 'High Elves'. The Gray ones are the aloof (Gold) ones. -'Grey' is an insult to Moon Elves, based on the color (bluish) of their skin. To call one 'grey' is akin to using a racial slur based on one's skin color. She did an amazing job reconciling a lot of disparate lore, but the book is far from perfect, so stop using it as the Elven Bible. (;) ) -I have the Elven bible. Rather, I'm working on it... Sharlario came from THE NORTH - if you look at the map on page 13 of the GHotR, Illythiir basically occupied modern day Dambrath (how appropriate, eh?). The ONLY coast it had was TO THE SOUTH. -What good is looking at a modern day map, when this was before the Sundering? Come on, catrographer. Break out the PDF of AGHotR, and look at the 'Atlas of the Ancient World' section, specifically the map of -25,500 DR. Duroithil encounters Attornash FIRST, before running into any other Illythiir Elves - and there were plenty of others, as told by Eilistraee (or are you calling her a liar?). -The novel makes no mention of Sharlario and his son encountering any other Dark Elven settlements. This does not mean that they did not. Eilistraee told Sharlario that MOST of the Dark Elves worshipped Vhaeraun... and yet, Ka'Narlist disavows anything to do with Vaeraun and his worshippers - ATTORNASH was a Ghaunadar City! That means Attornash had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the majority of the Dark Elves! -Incorrect. Ka'Narlist specifically says that HE worships Ghaunadaur. No mention is made of the rest of the populace of the city. But at least I'm willing to admit the current version of my favored race is evil. ;) -Of course, Elves are usually CG.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 09:22 PM	Evermeet remains my favorite FR novel. <3 Elaine. Marry me. -But, you're...And, she's... But Zaor and especially Amlaruil really...rubbed me the wrong way in that book. And unfortunately, that couple was the book's "centerpiece". -Yes, I remember you said her treatment of Arilyn turned you off from her.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 09:28 PM	(you are Dagniron, right?) -Yes, yes I am. I womight have said that if someone like Zaor was considered fit to rule, then the Ruler's Blade can't be all that picky.:P -Zaor, upon his 'transformation' to king, began exhibiting numerous 'lordly' qualities, that I'd want any ruler to have.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 09:56 PM	-But, you're...And, she's... the Konsort of Karsus.:) -Yes, I remember you said her treatment of Arilyn turned you off from her. Yes, that was one reason, out of several. I thought it was unfair of Amlaruil to still speak of Arilyn as a "bastard" even after Arilyn had pledged to serve her (you'd think she would at least be just a bit thankful, and respectful of such a service to the People?). And I thought she was in general a "Mary Sue" type character, and to my mind it felt like the story was "stacked" to make her look like she was great and "in the right" at all times, even though I didn't think that was always the case. Amlaruil is to me as Luke Skywalker is to you.;)
GothicDan 02-26-08, 09:57 PM	-Zaor, upon his 'transformation' to king, began exhibiting numerous 'lordly' qualities, that I'd want any ruler to have. Indeed. Made him more Gold Elven. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 09:59 PM	-Zaor, upon his 'transformation' to king, began exhibiting numerous 'lordly' qualities, that I'd want any ruler to have. Well, everyone experiences characters differently.:) I will say that while I disliked the young Zaor, I actually liked him even less in his old age.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 10:00 PM	Indeed. Made him more Gold Elven. ;) Gold elves turn into doddering old fools who evade their responsiblities because of their personal problems? By the way, it feels good to be talking about this. :) I understand these characters are liked by many, but in my case I was just turned off by their portrayals. If these characters truly are great, it's not because of anything I read in the novel. *shrug*
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 10:53 PM	the Konsort of Karsus.:) -She is? Elaine Cunningham is the Konsort of Karsus!? But, what about you!? Have you abandoned me!? -...It was Dan, wasn't it? Your beauty turned him ungay, and he stole you from me! Dan, how could you...? Our Elven Communion...:( And I thought she was in general a "Mary Sue" type character, and to my mind it felt like the story was "stacked" to make her look like she was great and "in the right" at all times, even though I didn't think that was always the case. -Truthfully, that can be said for any 'main character'. Elminster, Erevis Cale, Amlauril, Drizzt... Amlaruil is to me as Luke Skywalker is to you.;) -Ah, say no more. I understand. By the way, it feels good to be talking about this. :) -We're here to pleasure you...:shifty: -Right, I'll stop now. ;)
MarkusTay63 02-27-08, 01:45 AM	My Main point was that Eilistraee told Sharlario that the majority of the Dark Elves worship Vhauraun, and Ka'Narlist did not! Attornash was HIS city. Would he allow the worship of other gods in HIS city? He mocked the Vhaeraun worshippers! So which is it? Ka'Narlist was a bastard who controlled the city's populace with an iron fist (which the book does say), or he was a great guy who was into Freedom of Religion? You can't have it both ways, you know... :rolleyes: Read it again, and pay CLOSE ATTENTION this time. When the fair Elves leave, the head DIRECTLY north, NOT NE, and they were in hurry. The original landing spot of the Light Elves was the coast (old or new, I don't really care which). There is NO WAY Attornash was on the southern coast, given all the hints and directions in that chapter! The rest of the Dark Elves were still much further South and East, and those were the ones Eilistraee was referring to. I swear, sometimes I think we are reading two different books. ;) Also, you can't reference non-canon maps in a discussion - the original PDF version is null and void, because Brian just made up those maps before he was a designer. Therefore, I haven't checked them, but if memory serves me right, I would still say Attornash was on the far NW fringe of the Illythiiri Lands somewhere near the Lake of Steam. You keep acting like Ka'Narlist was someone important to the Dark Elves, but all he was was a petty dictator amongst a hundred other petty warlords. The Illythiir weren't even united at that point! At a later time, with Lolth's help, he might have gained more power and started uniting the tribes, but at the point in time in the book, he pretty much looks down at EVERYONE else, and even belittles the magic of his fellow Dark Elves. And if he was SO important, why was he simply killed off in a single sentence in another chapter, and why is there no mention of him in the GHotR? Because he simply was not nearly as important as you make him out to be. Another point - you claim that the entire Dark Elven Race was evil at that time because of one Elf... one who worshipped Ghaunadar. At that EXACT same moment in time, Durothil was also making deals with Ghaunadar, and HE WAS King of the Elves, unlike Ka'Narlist, who was basically just a nobody with delusions of grandeur.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 02:15 AM	My Main point was that Eilistraee told Sharlario that the majority of the Dark Elves worship Vhauraun, and Ka'Narlist did not! Attornash was HIS city. Would he allow the worship of other gods in HIS city? He mocked the Vhaeraun worshippers! -Yes. The Popes of Italty were Catholic. However, Rome had/has a sizable Jewish population. The Popes of ages past, as recent as the late 20th century, would openly condemn Jews as being Christ-Killers, and all that good stuff. Yet, they allowed them to exist in the city and practice their religion. -Don't like that example? Iran's politics are dominated by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who are both staunch and hardline Muslims- the same religion that, at times, says to 'kill the infidels', and all that good stuff. Zoroastrians, Jews, and Christians, all minority religions in the state, are officially recognized, protected, and have reserved seats in the Iranian Parliament. So which is it? Ka'Narlist was a bastard who controlled the city's populace with an iron fist (which the book does say), or he was a great guy who was into Freedom of Religion? You can't have it both ways, you know... :rolleyes: -See above. Read it again, and pay CLOSE ATTENTION this time. When the fair Elves leave, the head DIRECTLY north, NOT NE, and they were in hurry. The original landing spot of the Light Elves was the coast (old or new, I don't really care which). There is NO WAY Attornash was on the southern coast, given all the hints and directions in that chapter! The rest of the Dark Elves were still much further South and East, and those were the ones Eilistraee was referring to. -The only mention of the geography of the city is that it was not three-days south from where Sharlario and his son were camping, and on the Bay of Banshees, which was erased after Sundering reshaped Abeir-Toril. Also, you can't reference non-canon maps in a discussion - the original PDF version is null and void, because Brian just made up those maps before he was a designer. -And that somehow makes the lore used to create them less valid? You keep acting like Ka'Narlist was someone important to the Dark Elves, but all he was was a petty dictator amongst a hundred other petty warlords. -Utter conjecture, as there is no mention anywhere of the rulership of the Dark Elves, or any of their other enclaves, at this time period. The Illythiir weren't even united at that point! At a later time, with Lolth's help, he might have gained more power and started uniting the tribes... -Utter conjecture, as there is no mention anywhere of the rulership of the Dark Elves, or any of their other enclaves, at this time period. ...but at the point in time in the book, he pretty much looks down at EVERYONE else, and even belittles the magic of his fellow Dark Elves. -What's new? And if he was SO important, why was he simply killed off in a single sentence in another chapter, and why is there no mention of him in the GHotR? -Starleaf, the center in the Circle that cast the Sundering, and changed the face of Faerūn forever more, as well as served as the first protector of the Tree of Souls wasn't mentioned in AGHotR either. Nor was the coronation of King Zaor and Queen Amlauril. Nor was Vhoori Durothil ever once mentioned. Are you trying to tell me that none of these characters or events were important? Since when was the standard of importance being in AGHotR? Because he simply was not nearly as important as you make him out to be. -Based on the evidence availible, we cannot come to the conclusion that he was an unimportant character.
MarkusTay63 02-27-08, 02:22 AM	I think my points are valid, and all of yours are based on conjecture, so perhaps we should just agree to disagree... But you know... if the nasty Light Elves hadn't STOLEN the Nether scrolls, the Netherese could have come up with a solution to the Phaerimm... Ergo, the Elves killed Mystyl... indirectly... by stealing crucial knowledge. ;) Pure, unmitigated EVIL... just looking at them, with their smug, smiling faces, makes me want to puke. Everything they have ever done has lead to disaster... And when Evermeet goes bye-bye in 4e, I'll be laughing my ass off. :devil:
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 02:25 AM	I think my points are valid, and all of yours are based on conjecture, so perhaps we should just agree to disagree... -Ironically, I think similar of all of your points. I think I'm winning, too. ;)
GothicDan 02-27-08, 09:18 AM	-...It was Dan, wasn't it? Your beauty turned him ungay, and he stole you from me! Dan, how could you...? Our Elven Communion... Ironically enough, I was fervently declaring over AIM today how much I loved Rino. :p
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 11:11 AM	-She is? Elaine Cunningham is the Konsort of Karsus!? But, what about you!? Have you abandoned me!? -...It was Dan, wasn't it? Your beauty turned him ungay, and he stole you from me! Dan, how could you...? Our Elven Communion...:( No, I'm still your Konsort.:) -Truthfully, that can be said for any 'main character'. Elminster, Erevis Cale, Amlauril, Drizzt... Yes, it can be said...but not always by me. :) I don't think Elminster or Erevis Cale are "Mary Sues", for example. Drizzt is a bit "Mary Sueish", but overall even he doesn't rub me the wrong way the way Amlaruil did. And of course, some people loved Amlaruil in the book, but generally hate Elminster and think he's a Mary Sue. And that's OK. Everyone's different, and if you loved Amlaruil and/or Zaor with every fiber of your being (and I'm not saying you do...) I wouldn't set out to change your mind.:) Those characters "worked" for you even if they didn't for me. -Ah, say no more. I understand. Heh, I figured that analogy would be apt.:) -We're here to pleasure you...:shifty: -Right, I'll stop now. ;) No, don't...:D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 11:13 AM	Ironically enough, I was fervently declaring over AIM today how much I loved Rino. :p I'm so flattered.:embarrass I'd love it if you showed up at one of our meetings (in person) one of these days.:)
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 12:14 PM	No, I'm still your Konsort.:) -Oh, good. I don't think Elminster or Erevis Cale are "Mary Sues", for example. Drizzt is a bit "Mary Sueish", but overall even he doesn't rub me the wrong way the way Amlaruil did. -Really? I think Eliminster reeks of Mary-Suism. Drizzt, not so much. Just because he becomes preachy on topics that are obviously of relevance in the real life, that Salvatore applies into the novels, via Drizzt's musings...I'm sure you understand completely what I'm talking about. Heh, I figured that analogy would be apt.:) -Yep. No, don't...:D -If you wish... I'd love it if you showed up at one of our meetings (in person) one of these days.:) -Yeah, you friggin' lazy bum. Hitch hike, hot-wire a car, to what you gotta do.
GothicDan 02-27-08, 01:06 PM	It's not just the transport, it's also the SCHOOL WORK! I can't even be off campus for a whole weekend since I have a Fraternity meeting and tutoring job every Sunday.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 01:55 PM	-Really? I think Eliminster reeks of Mary-Suism. And I think that is a perfectly valid opinion.:) Drizzt, not so much. Just because he becomes preachy on topics that are obviously of relevance in the real life, that Salvatore applies into the novels, via Drizzt's musings...I'm sure you understand completely what I'm talking about. I very much understand what you're talking about. Many of the "journal entries" can get super-preachy, and that's something I tend to dislike in these novels.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 01:56 PM	It's not just the transport, it's also the SCHOOL WORK! I can't even be off campus for a whole weekend since I have a Fraternity meeting and tutoring job every Sunday. Understood. But, if you ever do get a chance to come, please come. I'd love to meet you.:)
GothicDan 02-27-08, 02:51 PM	Indeed, Rino, I'd love to meet you too! We could talk about cute boys together.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 03:05 PM	I very much understand what you're talking about. Many of the "journal entries" can get super-preachy, and that's something I tend to dislike in these novels. -Yup. Indeed, Rino, I'd love to meet you too! We could talk about cute boys together. :( -I'd feel so out of the loop...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 06:56 PM	Indeed, Rino, I'd love to meet you too! We could talk about cute boys together. Indeed! And LK, we can discuss other stuff so you don't feel left out. Like Star Wars, and that Darth Caedmus character you were talking about.:)
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 07:02 PM	And LK, we can discuss other stuff so you don't feel left out. Like Star Wars, and that Darth Caedmus character you were talking about.:) -Yay! (Caedus ;)) -We also need to figure out how/if our characters know each other, and John's character.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 07:16 PM	-Yay! (Caedus ;)) -We also need to figure out how/if our characters know each other, and John's character. Yes, I was actually thinking about that before.:) I'm trying to come up with a good, basic background for my character (which is, as you probably know, a female half-elven bard). Msatran suggested having her be from the Wealdath, and I think it's a good idea.
MarkusTay63 02-28-08, 01:44 AM	-I think I'm winning, too. ;)No, you are just refusing to see my point, which I feel is irrefutable. You turned Ka'Narlist into something he isn't in YOUR mind, and now your trying to back up your arguments by stating your opinion's canon... which it is not. And Brian's original maps were based on pure conjecture - the only 'lore' involved were Gray's old CK Compendium articles, which weren't canon (although some of it has become canon since). When someone travels from the north to the south, they will contact people on the NORTHERN FRINGE first, plain and simple. Eislistraae says that the Dark Elves worshipped Vhaeruan, which Ka'Narlist DID NOT, ergo he was NOT whom Eilistaee was talking about, clearly making him an irrelevant nobody, as far as a goddess was concerned. I can't believe we both read the same book, and didn't read the same thing. :nonono:
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 02:02 AM	No, you are just refusing to see my point, which I feel is irrefutable. -Most of your points are pure conjecture, as I have pointed out numerous times. You turned Ka'Narlist into something he isn't in YOUR mind, and now your trying to back up your arguments by stating your opinion's canon... which it is not. -I am basing all of my evidence directly from Evermeet: Island of the Elves, except for the part where I specifically said I was hypothesizing about the specifics of the arrival of the Ilythiiri. As I said, based on the evidence availible, we cannot come to the conclusion that he was an unimportant character. And Brian's original maps were based on pure conjecture - the only 'lore' involved were Gray's old CK Compendium articles, which weren't canon (although some of it has become canon since). -There are still no maps of the area for that period of time. As such the map Brian created is the only source we have for the boundaries of Ilythiir at the time- a map that was created using the same exact sources we are using. The exactly location of the city, however, is a nonissue. When someone travels from the north to the south, they will contact people on the NORTHERN FRINGE first, plain and simple. -That's fine. We don't know where Sharlario and his son were making camp. Cornaith specifically says that the duo are on a trip, making diplomatic ties with other Elves in the area. The two Elves could just have easily been in Ilythiiri lands, just as easily as they could have been a mile away from Sharlario, just as easily as they could have been anywhere else. The exactly location of the city, however, is a nonissue. Eislistraae says that the Dark Elves worshipped Vhaeruan, which Ka'Narlist DID NOT, ergo he was NOT whom Eilistaee was talking about, clearly making him an irrelevant nobody, as far as a goddess was concerned. -Eilistraee said specifically, "Many of the Elves there worship Vhaeraun." Nor was she referencing anybody specific. Eilistraee was telling Sharlario and his son about where and why she was 'exiled'. Note, that she specifically reference the city of Attornash. I can't believe we both read the same book, and didn't read the same thing. :nonono: -I know, geeze. -Other people here...Who is making a more compelling argument?
MarkusTay63 02-28-08, 02:30 AM	The map on pg. 13 of the canon GHotR shows the precise location of Illythiir, which covers most of Dambrath and the southern Shaar. Also, even if Brian's old PDF GHotR maps are valid, they show the world before the High Magic Sundering Ritual was cast! What that means is, that after the spell went off, the world DID NOT look like that at that period in time, because the proto-continent was sundered WAY BACK IN TIME. Attornbash was NEVER on the proto-continent, becuase the spell had gone back and changed the world in the DISTANT past (-31,000?) so that it looked EXACTLY as it does on the modern maps. The Orishaar Elves were directly to the north, not the coast! The nearest location that Attornash could possibly have been located on the coast, still been 'to the north', and still be in a region considered by the Illythiir to be theirs is the river delta (Bay of Banshees?) and the area just north of it, right where the giant letter 'H' in the word "fourth" is located. The maps of 25,000 you are looking at was the way the world might have been, not the way the world looked after the Sundering Ritual was performed, which set the events in motion for continental drift many millenia before. In fact, it was those drastic weather changes that killed off most of the creator races, in the past.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 02:41 AM	The map on pg. 13 of the canon GHotR shows the precise location of Illythiir, which covers most of Dambrath and the southern Shaar. -For the second time, now, that map depicts -11,700 DR to -10,300 DR. This map is of no use to our discussion, as the time period we are discussing is -25,100 DR, before the Sundering took place. Also, even if Brian's old PDF GHotR maps are valid, they show the world before the High Magic Sundering Ritual was cast! -Yes, that is the time period we are discussing. -25,100 DR. A couple of centuries before the Sundering was cast. What that means is, that after the spell went off, the world DID NOT look like that at that period in time, because the proto-continent was sundered WAY BACK IN TIME. Attornbash was NEVER on the proto-continent, becuase the spell had gone back and changed the world in the DISTANT past (-31, 000?) so that it looked EXACTLY as it does on the modern maps. The Orishaar Elves were directly to the north, not on the coast! -You know just as well as I do that the 'time travel' is ********, to cover up the fact that the date for the Sundering ritual was incorrect in Lost Empires of Faerūn. But, if you want to not disregard that, we're talking about the 'first' loop, before the Sundering was cast, for the 'first time', before it 'reached back into history', when Attornash, Occidian, Sharlarion, the Dragon Baronies, and so on existed on Faerūn, the One-Land. The nearest location that Attornash could possibly have been located on the coast, still been 'to the north', and still been in a region considered by the Illythiir to be theirs is the river delta (Bay of Banshees?) and the area just north of it, right where the giant letter 'H' in the word "fourth" is located. -Again, that map is not applicable to Attornash, as the world appeared differently. Again, however, the location of Attornash is a nonfactor in the discussion, a minor tangent. The maps of 25,000 you are looking at was the way the world might have been, not the way the world looked after the Sundering Ritual was performed, which set the events in motion for continental drift many millenia before. In fact, it wwas those drastic weather changes that killed off most of the creator races. -The maps were also the way the world was before the Sundering was cast the first time. By the way, the canon map of what the world looked like in -31,500 DR, on page 6 negate this concept, as if the planet never looked like this, it would not have been depicted as thus. -When analyzed, the 'time-loop' theory doesn't even work. How's that for good lore, eh?
MarkusTay63 02-28-08, 03:04 AM	Lets go back to basics then, seince you seem hell-ent on placing te city someplace that amuses you. ;) Tell me, aside from YOUR pure conjecture, why you think Ka'Narlist was important to the Dark Elven People? No other Dark Elves even appear in the scene he is in, and most of the city os described as bizzarre mutations and light Elven Slaves (along with slave of other racees). I see absolutely NO evidence that he had ANYTHING to do with other Dark Elves, aside from the fact that he wanted to experiment on them too (to create winged sark Elves - how cool is that?). He was a loner, and all about attaining power FOR HIMSELF. NOWHERE does it say he was representative of his people - in fact, Eilistraae's statements prove otherwise, since he DID NOT worship Vhauraun, he was not at all like the others. If anything, he was like a Netherese Arcanist, in charge of his own enclave... nothing more. And I know you don't want to discuss the maps anymore, but seriously, are you trying to tell me they moved? It doesn't really matter what map we reference; they always came from the same place. Elves don't move - they stay rooted to one particular forest for tens of thousands of years. The Illythiir did not simply decide to move to 'parts unknown' because you conjecture it so.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 03:31 AM	Lets go back to basics then, seince you seem hell-ent on placing te city someplace that amuses you. ;) -For, like, the fifth time now, the location of the city is a tangent that has no real meaning in the matter at hand, that you brought up. Tell me, aside from YOUR pure conjecture, why you think Ka'Narlist was important to the Dark Elven People? -He was the ruler of Attornash, the only Dark Elven city of the era that we know of. As I said earlier, based on the evidence availible, we cannot come to the conclusion that he was an inconsequential figure, as you are claiming. If the city was an inconsequential, 'rogue' settlement, why Eilistraee would Eilistraee have directed them there? Why would the city and it's surroundings be shaped and augmented by powerful Elven High Magic? No other Dark Elves even appear in the scene he is in, and most of the city os described as bizzarre mutations and light Elven Slaves (along with slave of other racees). -Page 112 mentions Attornash specifically as an 'Ilythiiri' city. Page 113 mentions specifically that the exchange of gifts in an ancient Elven custom. The same page specifically, again, says 'Ilythiiri Elf'. Furthermore, the same page mentions that many of the Elves of the city were 'dark skinned', like Eilistraee, who occupied 'more prestigious positions'. I see absolutely NO evidence that he had ANYTHING to do with other Dark Elves, aside from the fact that he wanted to experiment on them too (to create winged sark Elves - how cool is that?). He was a loner, and all about attaining power FOR HIMSELF. -He is the ruler of Attornash, an Illythiiri city of Dark Elves. He would not be in said position if he had nothing to do with Dark Elves, or the Ilythiiri in general. NOWHERE does it say he was representative of his people - in fact, Eilistraae's statements prove otherwise, since he DID NOT worship Vhauraun, he was not at all like the others. -Page 113 specifically mentions that when Sharlario and his son requested to speak with the leaders of the city (Attornash), runners were sent to Ka'Narlist Keep, and the Moon Elf duo were directed there. Thus, Ka'Narlist was the ruler of Attornash. -As I demonstrated before, a ruler needs not to believe what his subjects believe- the Pople and the Grand Ayatolah of Iran are two specific, real-world examples I brought up before. If you want specific Faerūnian examples...Queen Amlauril venerates the Seldarine, while her servant, Karsel'lyn Lylyl-Lytherraias venerates Eilistraee, a member of the Dark Seldarine. The Simbul venerates Mystra, while the Half-Elves of Relkath's Foot venerate a variety of nature deities. -Eilistraee's statement simply said that the Dark Elves of Ilythiir by in large worshipped Vhaeraun. Just like the Elves of Evermeet by in large worship the Seldarine. Just like the Drow of Menzoberranzan by in large worship Lolth. Just like the Lantanese by in large worship Gond. If anything, he was like a Netherese Arcanist, in charge of his own enclave... nothing more. -Which is fine, but I fail to see what this has to do with the topic at hand. By virtue of headed their enclaves, Netherese Arcanists had regular dealings and association with the people living with them, as well as other Arcanists and other Enclaves, And I know you don't want to discuss the maps anymore, but seriously, are you trying to tell me they moved? -Who moved? The Ilythiiri? Well, yes, pg. 165 does specifically mention that the Ilythiiri moved from where they were before the Sundering to "into the heart of the hills and mountains" after it. Not that the tangent really matters. It doesn't really matter what map we reference; they always came from the same place. -Of course, in one map, that place exists (Attornash, we are currently speaking of), and in another, that place (Attornash) does not exist. The city was swept away in the Sundering, and the entire geography of the planet was altered. Elves don't move - they stay rooted to one particular forest for tens of thousands of years. -I guess that negates all of the Elven expansion since the Sun and Moon Elf survivors of Tintageer arrived on Abeir-Toril. Or the entire existence of the Nomadic Elves of Maztica and Zakhara, eh? The Illythiir did not simply decide to move to 'parts unknown' because you conjecture it so. -See two points above. -I realize that I never responded directly to this: Another point - you claim that the entire Dark Elven Race was evil at that time because of one Elf... one who worshipped Ghaunadar. At that EXACT same moment in time, Durothil was also making deals with Ghaunadar, and HE WAS King of the Elves, unlike Ka'Narlist, who was basically just a nobody with delusions of grandeur. -Eilistraee says specifically that the Ilythiiri (Dark Elves) by in large, worship Vhaeraun. Who is an evil deity. He only accepts Chaotic Evil servants, Neutral Evil servants, and Chaotic Neutral servants. The Dark Maiden would not have been giving Sharlario and his son a warning if the majority of these Elves fell into the non-evil category.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 04:31 AM	-DOUBLE POST-
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 12:34 PM	-Other people here...Who is making a more compelling argument? What were you guys arguing about again?:P Seriously, I'm a bit lost. I will say, though, that it's hard for me to consider many of the events of the Evermeet novel (especially the super-ancient events, or events involving deities) as hard and true facts, as the novel was designed to be a biased history that hadn't even been vetted by the elves, yet. Elaine had another story regarding Ka'Narlist (having to do with how the Malenti came about, I think), but it was designed to be a legend.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 12:42 PM	I don't even need to read the argument to know that LK is. But that's only because I find Markus's style of argumentation to be invalid and illogical, mathematically speaking (and yes, that means a lot - since logicians are MATHEMATICIANS first and foremost), even if creative and sometimes fun. :) There's a reason why Mathematicians often do much better in Law nowadays than many others.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 03:36 PM	Seriously, I'm a bit lost. I will say, though, that it's hard for me to consider many of the events of the Evermeet novel (especially the super-ancient events, or events involving deities) as hard and true facts, as the novel was designed to be a biased history that hadn't even been vetted by the elves, yet. Elaine had another story regarding Ka'Narlist (having to do with how the Malenti came about, I think), but it was designed to be a legend. -They are, none the less, the only facts we have use on the subject. Thus, they are true by default.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 06:40 PM	-They are, none the less, the only facts we have use on the subject. Thus, they are true by default. So...what were you arguing about, again?:)
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 06:51 PM	So...what were you arguing about, again?:) -The overarching concept was if Ka'Narlist was an important figure or not.
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 12:49 AM	-Oh, and page 8 of AGHotR: "The great Ilythiiri capital of Atorrnash..."
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 01:35 PM	-The overarching concept was if Ka'Narlist was an important figure or not. I see.:) I guess that depends on how one defines "important". Since there is at least one legend about him that we know of (which may or may not be true), I would assume he's still remembered even after the passage of so much time. To me, that says something.
MarkusTay63 02-29-08, 02:59 PM	-Oh, and page 8 of AGHotR: "The great Ilythiiri capital of Atorrnash..."Who WROTE that crap? :uh-huh: Changed my mind again - don't buy ANY 4e products, D&D sucks, play something else, Hasbro products are toxic, etc, etc.... Doesn't really matter, because I figured out why NO modern Elves ever heard of the guy - he doesn't EXIST in the re-worked (canon) timeline. :P
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 04:21 PM	-Said quote was in the PDF and published versions of AGHotR, by the way. ...Hasbro products are toxic... -Hasbro makes Barbie, right? Doesn't really matter, because I figured out why NO modern Elves ever heard of the guy - he doesn't EXIST in the re-worked (canon) timeline. :P -The fact that Danillio was able to include him in his research means that records exist of him. -Just admit 'defeat'. :P
GothicDan 02-29-08, 04:49 PM	Point to LK.
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 04:56 PM	-Ugh, I've been spelling the city incorrectly all this time. :nonono: -It's 'Atorrnash', not 'Attornash'. Two 'R's, not two 'T's.
GothicDan 02-29-08, 05:07 PM	I tried to subtly correct that in one of my first posts, when I spelled it right, but you didn't pick up on it.
Krash 02-29-08, 09:13 PM	Who WROTE that crap? :uh-huh: Changed my mind again - don't buy ANY 4e products, D&D sucks, play something else, Hasbro products are toxic, etc, etc.... Doesn't really matter, because I figured out why NO modern Elves ever heard of the guy - he doesn't EXIST in the re-worked (canon) timeline. :P :) It's fixable Markus. No need to get upset. -- George Krashos
MarkusTay63 03-01-08, 01:02 AM	Sorry, I lost my cool for a second there. Thats a completely different take on him then how I envisioned him in E:IoE - he was just one lone Archmage with his own city and minions, and someone went and made him a king? :uh-huh: Well, in the original pre-Sundering Timeline he was who LK thought he was, and after the timeline was retconned (in canon) by the Sundering, he was like I pictured him. Not only did Ka'Narlist become something much more then he should have (High Magic backfiring once again), but the very location of the Illythiir kingdom shifted further south and East because of the temporal anomaly. Two timelines actually explains a lot of other inconsistencies, now that I think about it, like why the Dragons were originally listed as one of the Creator Races, but then in later sources they came much later and fought with the giants. The Aearee weren't even listed amongst the intial creator races in draconic legends, and somehow humans replaced Dragons after the Timeline was altered. Hmmm... we also have advanced, civilized humans LONG before there should have been in that short story... and that archer-god (please don't expect me to remember the names of every insignificant point-eared god) being mentioned too early as well - in the other timeline, humans became advanced sooner, and Saver-what-ever ascended earlier. That goes well with accepted theories about time paradoxes and also the D&D rules from Chronomancer - time has a way of eventually 'fixing' itself, so that the humans DID eventually become the dominant species, and archer-elf was eventually born and raised to godhood. It would be a fun project to document what events belong to which timeline. :D
Vulpes 03-01-08, 01:41 AM	-Oh, and page 8 of AGHotR: "The great Ilythiiri capital of Atorrnash..." Not to add more fuel to the great debating fire, but just because they said "great Ilythiiri capital" doesn't mean it was THE capital of a monolithic Ilythiiri state. Once can say, "the great American capital of Washington, D.C." without it meaning the capital of the whole Americas. There could have been other Ilythiiri capitals.
Lord Karsus 03-01-08, 01:52 AM	Thats a completely different take on him then how I envisioned him in E:IoE - he was just one lone Archmage with his own city and minions, and someone went and made him a king? :uh-huh: -Well, what's in the book is what he's always been. No one changed anything around. Well, in the original pre-Sundering Timeline he was who LK thought he was, and after the timeline was retconned (in canon) by the Sundering, he was like I pictured him. -Right, but the events and depictions in Evermeet, and in AGHotR are the canon. There are no 'two timelines'- you're taking that retcon to fix the wrong date of the Sundering a bit far. And, if you want to subscribe to the 'alternate timelines theory', the events that happen in Evermeet and AGHotR are 'Abeir-Toril 616', ie, this Abeir-Toril. Not to add more fuel to the great debating fire, but just because they said "great Ilythiiri capital" doesn't mean it was THE capital of a monolithic Ilythiiri state. -The 'monolithic' Ilythiiri state did not exist at this point. The Sundering washed away Atorrnash, and rearranged the face of the world. It was in the shadow of the Sundering that the 'modern' Ilythiir was created. Once can say, "the great American capital of Washington, D.C." without it meaning the capital of the whole Americas. There could have been other Ilythiiri capitals. -Right. However, Ilythiir was a nation-state, not a continent. A nation-state can only have a single capital city.
MarkusTay63 03-01-08, 02:39 AM	BTW, that little blurb doesn't mention Ka'Narlist AT ALL... just the city, which may have become his later on, or in a completely different timeline. And designers have stated time and time again that events in the Evermeet novel are NOT to be taken as 'true' history. The GHotR I would have to accept... and it doesn't mention Ka'narlist. Probably took over an old abandoned city after the Illythiiri moved south... :rolleyes:
GothicDan 03-01-08, 08:46 AM	The events in the novel aren't meant to be taken as true, but neither are they false. And without conflicting evidence, I tend to take them as "mostly true, if a bit skewed." I'm totally confused as to why MT flipped out so much. I always took Ka'Narlist much as LK presented him - not exactly, as you can see from my comments, but in a similar vein.
MarkusTay63 03-01-08, 10:25 AM	Because, going by the text in the chapter with Eilistrae, it doesn't appear that Ka'Narlist is whom she is talking about at all, and she is most definately talking about the Ilythiir people in general. Considering his attitudes, I find it outright bizarre that he would be a leader of a group of people that have a completely different belief system then he does.
GothicDan 03-01-08, 12:59 PM	He's a Dark Elf. POWER. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 10:03 PM	Thats a completely different take on him then how I envisioned him in E:IoE - he was just one lone Archmage with his own city and minions, and someone went and made him a king? :uh-huh: Maybe he made himself king.:P
Lord Karsus 03-01-08, 11:32 PM	BTW, that little blurb doesn't mention Ka'Narlist AT ALL... just the city, which may have become his later on, or in a completely different timeline -Which has absolutely no evidence to back it up, and it wild and rampant speculation, whereas the tome Danillo Thann wrote is based on actual texts from Candlekeep, Evermeet, and other places, and can be substantiated. Because, going by the text in the chapter with Eilistrae, it doesn't appear that Ka'Narlist is whom she is talking about at all, and she is most definately talking about the Ilythiir people in general. -She specifically mentions Atorrnash. Ka'Narlist is the leader of Atorrnash when she mentions it. And designers have stated time and time again that events in the Evermeet novel are NOT to be taken as 'true' history. -Which doesn't change the fact that the canon is based off of the novel. The GHotR I would have to accept... and it doesn't mention Ka'narlist. -Nor does it mention the coronation of King Zaor and Queen Amlauril, or the circumstances that surrounded it. Are we to not believe that the King and Queen of Evermeet were not coronated in such a manner? That Zaor had the Kingblade (which is substantiated), that Amlarul was chosen by the Seldarine (which is substantiated)... Probably took over an old abandoned city after the Illythiiri moved south... -Which has absolutely no evidence to back it up, and it wild and rampant speculation, whereas the tome Danillo Thann wrote is based on actual texts from Candlekeep, Evermeet, and other places, and can be substantiated. Considering his attitudes, I find it outright bizarre that he would be a leader of a group of people that have a completely different belief system then he does. -How many times do I need to cite the fact that a leader can have a completely different belief system than his/her subjects. In the Forgotten Realms and in the real world.
GothicDan 03-02-08, 01:04 AM	Which has absolutely no evidence to back it up, and it wild and rampant speculation. Honestly, I love MT and all, but this is usually what I end up seeing out of his debates about things that aren't portrayed in canon the way he wants them to be. Orcs, for example. There's playing Devil's Advocate, and then there's just being obtuse.
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 01:33 AM	Honestly, I love MT and all, but this is usually what I end up seeing out of his debates about things that aren't portrayed in canon the way he wants them to be. -I agree, on both points: MT is great, and a whole lot of his stuff is speculation, or are morphed to an extent that the canon does not accurately portray. In something like Elves of Faerūn, that's fine, as one of the goals it to 'fill in the gaps'. Not, however, in an intellectual debate like this.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 02:39 AM	So I'm automatically wrong, because you two see it differently? Sorry if I'm just not seeing it... and I'm reading the same books you are (without the Elven rose-colored glasses, of course). ;) And I'm right about the Orcs too... I keep pulling up canon facts about their history, yet you seem to ignore them over your personal opinions. In Greyhawk you two would be 100% correct - Drow were ALWAYS evil, and so were Orcs, but FR has enough history for me to see another side of them. I think I need a break from these boards for awhile... a LONG while... :(
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 03:35 AM	So I'm automatically wrong, because you two see it differently? -By ignoring the facts, yes. In Greyhawk you two would be 100% correct - Drow were ALWAYS evil, and so were Orcs, but FR has enough history for me to see another side of them. -No one is arguing that ALL Drow and ALL Orcs are evil. A single example negates that. The overwhelming majority of Drow are evil. The overwhelming majority of Orcs are evil. Both come from societies that were overwhelmingly evil. In this current conversation, though, that's not even what we are discussing.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 03:40 PM	It must be nice to choose which facts you adhere to, and which you ignore. 'Elitism' seems to not only run among the Elves, but their adherents as well. :(
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 04:31 PM	It must be nice to choose which facts you adhere to, and which you ignore. -Share with me, specifically, what facts I am ignoring. The fact that, of everyone following the conversation here, you are the only one who "doesn't get it", that should be very telling of something.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 05:10 PM	So you are saying that I don't comprehend what I am reading? :uh-huh: I'm sorry if your comprehension skills are so much better then mine, but I'm just not seeing the same things you are. And who is this 'everybody'? You and Dan? :confused: A DESIGNER has come on here and said Evermeet is NOT accurate, and the SAME designer has said that the facts concerning Attornash (NOT Ka'Narlist!) can be reconciled with my view, and in BOTH instances you choose to ignore that. Who's being obstinate here? I'm agreeing to disagree, and you keep insisting you are right (because your world view is the 'correct' one). Logic: A) Goddes says the Drow People worship Vharaun B) Elves meet a worshipper of Ghaundalar C) Ghaundaler =/= Vharuan D) Elves =/= meet the Drow People to which a GODDESS was referring. Sure he was powerful, and sure he became even MORE powerful later, after Lolth took an interest in him, but NOWHERE does it say that Ka'Narlist represents the majority of the Illythiiri People at that period of time - in fact, using my logic above, it says quite the opposite! I read the same thing as you, and I got a totally different interpretation of the events therein. Sorry if I don't agree with your opinion, but I have drawn my own. I have a way of reconciling both versions, but you are unwilling to budge on this. :(
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 05:37 PM	So you are saying that I don't comprehend what I am reading? :uh-huh: -If you continue not not see what everyone else is seeing, and are the only one seeing only what you alone see- and thus far, no one has come out to endorse what you are saying, yes. And who is this 'everybody'? You and Dan? :confused: -Me, Dan, Rino, Krash, who could have offered insight countering any of my points, but instead told you to calm down, as you don't have to follow the canon in your own games... A DESIGNER has come on here and said Evermeet is NOT accurate, and the SAME designer has said that the facts concerning Attornash (NOT Ka'Narlist!) can be reconced with my view, and in BOTH instances you choose to ignore that. Who's being obstinate here? -Regardless, the information in Evermeet: Island of Elves is based on factual found in the libraries of Evermeet and Candlekeep. The relevant passages in canon sources, such as Lost Empires of Faerūn, and A Grand History of the Realms, are based on the lore contained in Evermeet: Island of Elves. If the information contained therewithin was not supposed to be taken literally, it would not be canon, and the above canon sources would have information that diverges greatly from what is contained therewithin. But, neither is the case. It is a canon novel, and the events in the novel are substantiated in other canon sources. Logic: A) Goddes says the Drow People worship Vharaun B) Elves meet a worshipper of Ghaundalar C) Ghaundaler =/= Vharuan D) Elves =/= meet the Drow People to which a GODDESS was referring. -Do want quotes, again? "Many of the Elves worship Vhaeraun." (Page 109) "There is one thing more that you must know and fear. High Magic, which brought you to this place, can be a wonderous thing. It can also be used for great evil. You will find this to be true, if you visit Atorrnash (The great Ilythiiri capital- [I]AGHotR). You who have never had reason to fear magic must learn to be weary of it, and those who wield it...It is a great city, not quite three days' travel to the south." (Page 110) "Vhaeraun! A minor godling, an upstart. His followers are mostly thieves, raiders, rogues of all kinds. I myself have nothing to do with this [deity]." (Page 116) Sure he was powerful, and sure he became even MORE powerful later, after Lolth took an interest in him, but NOWHERE does it say that Ka'Narlist represents the majority of the Illythiiri People at that period of time - in fact, using my logic above, it says quite the opposite! "The keepers of the gates asked their business and listened with courtesy as as Sharlario requested the opportunity to speak with the leaders of Atorrnash on behalf of the Tintageer Elves of the northern mountains. Tne guardians sent runners at once to Ka'Narlist Keep..." (Page 113) -So, the ruler of Ilythiir's capital city does not rule? He does not represent the Ilythiir? Religion aside- as I have pointed out multiple times that a ruled need not suscribe to the same religion his people subscribe to, in the Realms and in the actual world- how does the leader of the Ilythiiri capital of Atorrnash not the leader of the Ilythiiri empire, and by proxy, representative of the people living within this empire? I find your logic flawed. I have a way of reconciling both versions, but you are unwilling to budge on this. :( -There is nothing that needs to be reconciled. It is what it is.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 06:11 PM	Most of those quotes appear to support MY view, especially the one regarding Ka'Narlist's attitudes (where he clearly disagrees with a GODESS who claims that Vhaeraun is THE god of the Illythiir people). Thats sort of what 'most' means. ;) Still reading what you are posting, and still not seeing you in the right here. Attornash, according to GhotR was the Illythiir capital in -27,000. In the map you so conveniently pointed out to me in the original version of GHotR, it shows the Illythiir region comprising mostly of Lapiliya and extends on up to the Border Kingdoms, ergo Attornash was in THAT vicinity, and quite probably central to the 'Kingdom'. Later, we see the map on page 13 of the CANON GHotR, we see that the Kingdom of Illythiir has moved! Oh no! Why ever would they do that, when their old capital was far away and to the north? Could it be because some decrepit, nasty, old Archmage took it over, and the 'noble savages' that comprised most of the Illythiir people wanted nothing to do with him? I guess it can't, because that scenario DOES NOT fit into YOUR world view. I guess they just moved their Kingdom far away from their capital because their king 'smelled bad'... or something... :rolleyes: ;) :P
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 06:24 PM	Most of those quotes appear to support MY view, especially the one regarding Ka'Narlist's attitudes (where he clearly disagrees with a GODESS who claims that Vhaeraun is THE god of the Illythiir people). -No they don't. I wouldn't have provided them willingly if they did not support what I am saying. Still reading what you are posting, and still not seeing you in the right here. -Your views are already opinionated, and are not going to reconcile with mine, or anyone elses, no matter how much debating we do. Just like I am not seeing anything that you are claiming to be so simple. Attornash, according to GhotR was the Illythiir capital in -27,000. In the map you so conveniently pointed out to me in the original version of GHotR, it shows the Illythiir region comprising mostly of Lapiliya and extends on up to the Border Kingdoms, ergo Attornash was in THAT vicinity, and quite probably central to the 'Kingdom'. -That's fine. As I said numerous times, the exact location of Atorrnash is a tangent, and is not central to the main conversation at hand. Later, we see the map on page 13 of the CANON GHotR, we see that the Kingdom of Illythiir has moved! Oh no! Why ever would they do that, when their old capital was far away and to the north? -For at least the third time, now, the map on page 13 of AGHotR is set from -11,700 DR to -10,300 DR. As I have pointed out more than once, the Sundering (no matter which date- the correct one, or the incorrect one) reshaped the face of the world, and washed Atorrnash away long before the snapshot that map represents. It left Ilythiir, as well as the rest of the world, in tatters. It eliminated Ka'Narlist- who may or may not still be alive, as I have uncovered some more evidence to support the idea that he did not perish, and brought new rulers to Ilythiir. As I already quoted, Evermeet: Island of Elves specifically that the Ilythiiri moved from where they were before the Sundering to "into the heart of the hills and mountains" after it. Could it be because some decrepit, nasty, old Archmage took it over, and the 'noble savages' that comprised most of the Illythiir people wanted nothing to do with him? -Your timeline is confused. I guess it can't, because that scenario DOES NOT fit into YOUR world view. -Or the canon. I guess they just moved their Kingdom far away from their capital because their king 'smelled bad'... or something... :rolleyes: -As a worshipper of Ghaunadaur, he may as well have.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 06:34 PM	The fact that you just used the 'incorrect' statement concerning the Sundering proves my whole point, which is no longer about Ka'Narlist, or Attornash, or even about the Illythiiri. Its that you are closed minded, and are unable to see other people's points of view when they clash with your own. You better check yourself... your 'grognards' are showing. :P For the umpteenth time, I am reading the exact same sentences you are reading, and I am getting a totally different meaning from them. I suppose this is one 'sore point' we will never be ablee to see eye-to-eye on. :(
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 06:40 PM	The fact that you just used the 'incorrect' statement concerning the Sundering proves my whole point, which is no longer about Ka'Narlist, or Attornash, or even about the Illythiiri. Its that you are closed minded, and are unable to see other people's points of view when they clash with your own. -And, yes, I am close minded in this situation, as I know I am correct. If my views were that 'radical', 'wrong', whatever you want to call it, people would be telling me about how I was wrong. We all know there is not a shortage of people who don't have any problem doing that. You better check yourself... your 'grognards' are showing. :P -I was told you don't need pants to go to 'Grognardise', so I figured...Lemme put those back on. :embarrass I suppose this is one 'sore point' we will never be ablee to see eye-to-eye on. :( -I suppose. No hard feelings, though, right?
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 06:46 PM	Of course not. :uh-huh: That would be ridiculous to be angry at someone I respect, just because we don't agree on a ficticous point of history. My reading is indeed 'tainted' by my views, as is yours, and everyone else's. I'm just glad you see that. ;) One of my favorite Marvel titles used to be What If?, which explains a lot about how I like to look at things. I try to take them apart, and see another side to them, not just the 'accepted' one. :)
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 06:54 PM	Of course not. :uh-huh: -Okay, good.
Khaelieth 03-03-08, 08:38 AM	Attornash, according to GhotR was the Illythiir capital in -27,000. In the map you so conveniently pointed out to me in the original version of GHotR, it shows the Illythiir region comprising mostly of Lapiliya and extends on up to the Border Kingdoms, ergo Attornash was in THAT vicinity, and quite probably central to the 'Kingdom' Attornash didn't need to be geographically central; London's in southern England, Edinburgh's not directly in the middle of Scotland at all, Oslo (capitol of Norway) lies really far south, it's closer to Berlin than the northern Norwegian cities. Moscow's nowhere near the middle of Russia either.