Werewolves, Shar or Selune? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Werewolves, Shar or Selune? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
morvegil
06-12-07, 03:49 PM IS there anything on Shar or Selune creating werewolves?
ShadezofDis
06-12-07, 03:58 PM Ummm. . . not that I know of, however Selune is the patron goddess of good and neutral lycanthropes and Malar is the patron god of evil lycanthropes.

I don't know of any "origins" for lycanthropes in the Realms but Shar doesn't have anything to do with lycanthropes right now.

So, as to your original question, AFAIK the answer is no. But I could very well be wrong.
MarkusTay63
06-12-07, 05:41 PM Although 2e Core, a good deal of Monster Mythology has worked its way into the Realms, and it lists Daragor as the God of Werewolves and evil Lycanthropes. There is no mention as to their creation, however, and most likely Malar destroyed and assumed Daragor's portfolio in the Realms many thousands of years ago.
GothicDan
06-12-07, 05:41 PM Isn't there a patron monstrous werewolf god out there?
XHereticX
06-12-07, 08:25 PM Isn't there a patron monstrous werewolf god out there?

Yes, one of them dark powers, like Melifleur for liches and Kanchelsis for vampires. Dunno if they exist in FR though.
Old Sage
06-12-07, 09:15 PM IS there anything on Shar or Selune creating werewolves?For Selūne... see the Mistress of the Night novel and the details on the New Moon Pact.

Tom Costa's entry for the New Moon Hunter PrC in Bestiary of the Realms Vol. 2 summarises most of the lore about the organisation contained in the novel.

The Bestiary can be found here:- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html
MerrikCale
06-12-07, 09:30 PM I suppose Malar creates them all the time by sending his People of the Black Blood out to "recruit"
MarkusTay63
06-12-07, 10:49 PM Did you guys even read my post? :confused:

Isn't there a patron monstrous werewolf god out there?

Yes, one of them dark powers, like Melifleur for liches and Kanchelsis for vampires. Dunno if they exist in FR though.For the second time, his name is Daragor. He isn't mentioned as far as Realms canon goes, so thats why I made the leap that Malar probably offed him... it's his style to take portfolios from other beast-related gods.

As a side note, Melifleur is in Realms canon, since it specifically points to Bane for his creation in Monster Mythology. Strange, because that would give us a second lich-god (although different portfolios). Kanchelsis, the vampire god, is connected to the Seldarine, but not neccessarily to FR's Seldarine.
XHereticX
06-12-07, 10:53 PM Hmm, I thought velsharoon took his place in the realms?
MarkusTay63
06-12-07, 11:59 PM It does say that the lich-god is multi-spheric, and is known by other names and has been elevated to his devine status by a different god on each world, so he is sort of an enigma. I would hazard to guess that Velsharoon IS Toril's Melifleur.

Hmmm... just noticed something...

Velsharoon... Tsharoon...

I love stumbling across linguistic connections. :D
souldnce9
06-13-07, 04:51 AM Why would Vampires, Liches, and Werewolves have a Deity dedicated to their status? That seems ridiculous. :( I can see them worshiping a deity already in place (such as Shar or Selune), but why would they suddenly start worshipping a deity of whatever they've become? What exactly is the point? Why don't they have deities for ghosts, or wraiths then? I don't know maybe it is just me, but I think having Deities for said undead and lycanthropes is redundant and rather excessive. However this wouldn't be the only thing that bugs me about religion on Toril (or on earth for that matter :P ).

Of course I could just be tired and gripey right now. zzzzz zzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz
captaincarot
06-13-07, 05:01 AM how would these deities come into being if there was already a deity which covered the concepts that they regard as sacred, such as the hunt for malar worshippers.

i can't see evil ones worshiping shar unless they hate the moon.
ShadezofDis
06-13-07, 09:49 AM Why would Vampires, Liches, and Werewolves have a Deity dedicated to their status?

Well, there are several reasons.

First and foremost, there are a bunch of "least" Gods and Goddesses in the Realms. Mostly regional deities who are worshiped by a small number of people/beings. They aren't cataloged in the FRCS because there's tons of them and they don't have much influence besides their regional influence.

However, since there is no real "official" stance on who, what or how on these deities they get mostly ignored.

Second, Vampires and Werewolves, at least, drastically change from their "mortal" being when they become vampires or werewolves. They wouldn't be the same being they were before the transformation so it's not out of line for them to change who they worship (or stop worshiping a god/goddess all together).
MerrikCale
06-13-07, 08:32 PM Second, Vampires and Werewolves, at least, drastically change from their "mortal" being when they become vampires or werewolves. They wouldn't be the same being they were before the transformation so it's not out of line for them to change who they worship (or stop worshiping a god/goddess all together).

Fair enough, but it seems odd that there would be a god devoted to vampires. How could that god possibly sustain enough devotees. It seems much more likely that vampires would tend to worship a god with a portfolio of the dead or necromancy, or perhaps even Orcus
MarkusTay63
06-13-07, 08:51 PM Both the Lich god and the Vampire god are regarded as cosmic accidents, and they don't seem to care if they have worshippers or not, which in a strange way is a good way of explaining the 'why' part.

I can see having a single god representing the inner beastial nature of man (or whatever), but not a seperate god for each which there is. Unless of course they are all just seperate aspects of a single god, in which case Malar IS the perfect candidate. He is probably known under more names then any other FR deity, and he has taken the aspects of dozens of lesser ones in FR, if not hundreds.

I love Malar, he's like a big unloveable teddy bear. :D

He really should get more attention IG; He gets plenty in novels.
XHereticX
06-13-07, 08:55 PM maybe the gothic creature gods(as I like to call them) were the first members of their kind to appear in the multiverse? well, except Melifleur.
The_Shaman
06-14-07, 09:57 AM Maybe. I do seem to remember something in CoRuin about Shar being willing give anti-selunite cults of any kind covert help, so she might give the malarites a hand.
ShadezofDis
06-14-07, 10:08 AM I can't see a lich for Malar, unless it was some kinda freaky druid lich. :)

And I'm really on the fence about Vampires. They aren't natural, they go against the natural cycle of predator and prey, I can see individual vampires being accepted by Malar but I can't really buy Malar taking vampires wholesale (Because, being a nature deity, Malar should be focused on the "civilization vs nature" fight rather than the "I want more power cause I'm a little cry baby" kick he's been on)

I can't really say I like the handling of Malar, I see a much more honorable, less stupid, deity than what's presented. :D

I could see Shar aiding evil lycanthropes (in a bid to get them to kill lycanthropes devoted to Selune) but not much more than that.
MarkusTay63
06-14-07, 11:05 AM I see the various Lycanthrope packs worshipping different deities, depending on their location, their original form, and their new form. So basically, they could worship just about ANY god, and I don't see them really having a deity of their own in the Realms.

Thats why I think it most likely that Malar got rid of the various Were-gods ages ago, but that doesn't mean Lycanthropes have to worship him.

If a vampire or Lich worshipped an evil god in their mortal form, I really don't see them switching just because their form has changed. A vampire is more likely do to the alignment thing, but a Lich doesn't undergo any sort of mental change so why would they switch?

Velsharoon is good enough for our Lich God, but I wouldn't mind the Vampire God just because of its 'coolness' factor. Perhaps the first primordial vampire on Faerūn has ascended? That wold be fun, but I wonder what form it would take? Would it be of one the other four Creator Races? A vampiric Le'Shay would be truly frightening.
Siridar
06-14-07, 05:51 PM I'm pretty sure in Waterdeep book it mentions Selune turning a girl into a werecat so maybe she can create werecreatures of at least good alignment
ShadezofDis
06-14-07, 06:19 PM I'm pretty sure in Waterdeep book it mentions Selune turning a girl into a werecat so maybe she can create werecreatures of at least good alignment

Well yeah.

Any god/goddess worth their portfolio can turn someone into a werecreature.

It takes quite a bit to turn someone into a true lycanthrope.

But I thought we were discussing who created the first ones. That might have been my bad. Too many threads are about "The First" this or that or "The Most Powerful" this or that so I just assumed. :D
XHereticX
06-14-07, 06:56 PM Strahd Von Zarvoich for Vampire God of Toril:D
souldnce9
06-14-07, 07:26 PM Well I guess it is possible for a lich, vamp, or werepup to ascend to god hood.
MerrikCale
06-14-07, 08:46 PM I see the various Lycanthrope packs worshipping different deities, depending on their location, their original form, and their new form. So basically, they could worship just about ANY god, and I don't see them really having a deity of their own in the Realms.

Thats why I think it most likely that Malar got rid of the various Were-gods ages ago, but that doesn't mean Lycanthropes have to worship him.

If a vampire or Lich worshipped an evil god in their mortal form, I really don't see them switching just because their form has changed. A vampire is more likely do to the alignment thing, but a Lich doesn't undergo any sort of mental change so why would they switch?

Velsharoon is good enough for our Lich God, but I wouldn't mind the Vampire God just because of its 'coolness' factor. Perhaps the first primordial vampire on Faerūn has ascended? That wold be fun, but I wonder what form it would take? Would it be of one the other four Creator Races? A vampiric Le'Shay would be truly frightening.

Thats basically how I feel too.
The_Shaman
06-18-07, 10:53 AM IS there anything on Shar or Selune creating werewolves?

Back to the OP, a deity has (nearly) unlimited power within its portfolios. Given Selune's link to lycanthropes, and especially the power of the moon domain to destroy them (and the shapechange magic that is affiliated with it), I think she is definitely able to create werecreatures.
MerrikCale
06-18-07, 09:31 PM Back to the OP, a deity has (nearly) unlimited power within its portfolios. Given Selune's link to lycanthropes, and especially the power of the moon domain to destroy them (and the shapechange magic that is affiliated with it), I think she is definitely able to create werecreatures.

I'm sure she could but I doubt she would. She seems to be a deity assisting the inflicted with the "curse". I doubt she would inflict anyone
The_Shaman
06-19-07, 06:27 AM Probably. Though, given one of the benefits of the Silverstar PrC in Faiths and Pantheons, I could see it as a rare and risky "gift" given to a champion in emergency.
MerrikCale
06-19-07, 09:29 PM Probably. Though, given one of the benefits of the Silverstar PrC in Faiths and Pantheons, I could see it as a rare and risky "gift" given to a champion in emergency.

a logical and interesting plot twist to a campaign for sure
MerrikCale
06-19-07, 09:32 PM Did you guys even read my post? :confused:

we try not to

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
morvegil 06-12-07, 03:49 PM	IS there anything on Shar or Selune creating werewolves?
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 03:58 PM	Ummm. . . not that I know of, however Selune is the patron goddess of good and neutral lycanthropes and Malar is the patron god of evil lycanthropes. I don't know of any "origins" for lycanthropes in the Realms but Shar doesn't have anything to do with lycanthropes right now. So, as to your original question, AFAIK the answer is no. But I could very well be wrong.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 05:41 PM	Although 2e Core, a good deal of Monster Mythology has worked its way into the Realms, and it lists Daragor as the God of Werewolves and evil Lycanthropes. There is no mention as to their creation, however, and most likely Malar destroyed and assumed Daragor's portfolio in the Realms many thousands of years ago.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 05:41 PM	Isn't there a patron monstrous werewolf god out there?
XHereticX 06-12-07, 08:25 PM	Isn't there a patron monstrous werewolf god out there? Yes, one of them dark powers, like Melifleur for liches and Kanchelsis for vampires. Dunno if they exist in FR though.
Old Sage 06-12-07, 09:15 PM	IS there anything on Shar or Selune creating werewolves?For Selūne... see the Mistress of the Night novel and the details on the New Moon Pact. Tom Costa's entry for the New Moon Hunter PrC in Bestiary of the Realms Vol. 2 summarises most of the lore about the organisation contained in the novel. The Bestiary can be found here:- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html
MerrikCale 06-12-07, 09:30 PM	I suppose Malar creates them all the time by sending his People of the Black Blood out to "recruit"
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 10:49 PM	Did you guys even read my post? :confused: Isn't there a patron monstrous werewolf god out there? Yes, one of them dark powers, like Melifleur for liches and Kanchelsis for vampires. Dunno if they exist in FR though.For the second time, his name is Daragor. He isn't mentioned as far as Realms canon goes, so thats why I made the leap that Malar probably offed him... it's his style to take portfolios from other beast-related gods. As a side note, Melifleur is in Realms canon, since it specifically points to Bane for his creation in Monster Mythology. Strange, because that would give us a second lich-god (although different portfolios). Kanchelsis, the vampire god, is connected to the Seldarine, but not neccessarily to FR's Seldarine.
XHereticX 06-12-07, 10:53 PM	Hmm, I thought velsharoon took his place in the realms?
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 11:59 PM	It does say that the lich-god is multi-spheric, and is known by other names and has been elevated to his devine status by a different god on each world, so he is sort of an enigma. I would hazard to guess that Velsharoon IS Toril's Melifleur. Hmmm... just noticed something... Velsharoon... Tsharoon... I love stumbling across linguistic connections. :D
souldnce9 06-13-07, 04:51 AM	Why would Vampires, Liches, and Werewolves have a Deity dedicated to their status? That seems ridiculous. :( I can see them worshiping a deity already in place (such as Shar or Selune), but why would they suddenly start worshipping a deity of whatever they've become? What exactly is the point? Why don't they have deities for ghosts, or wraiths then? I don't know maybe it is just me, but I think having Deities for said undead and lycanthropes is redundant and rather excessive. However this wouldn't be the only thing that bugs me about religion on Toril (or on earth for that matter :P ). Of course I could just be tired and gripey right now. zzzzz zzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz
captaincarot 06-13-07, 05:01 AM	how would these deities come into being if there was already a deity which covered the concepts that they regard as sacred, such as the hunt for malar worshippers. i can't see evil ones worshiping shar unless they hate the moon.
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 09:49 AM	Why would Vampires, Liches, and Werewolves have a Deity dedicated to their status? Well, there are several reasons. First and foremost, there are a bunch of "least" Gods and Goddesses in the Realms. Mostly regional deities who are worshiped by a small number of people/beings. They aren't cataloged in the FRCS because there's tons of them and they don't have much influence besides their regional influence. However, since there is no real "official" stance on who, what or how on these deities they get mostly ignored. Second, Vampires and Werewolves, at least, drastically change from their "mortal" being when they become vampires or werewolves. They wouldn't be the same being they were before the transformation so it's not out of line for them to change who they worship (or stop worshiping a god/goddess all together).
MerrikCale 06-13-07, 08:32 PM	Second, Vampires and Werewolves, at least, drastically change from their "mortal" being when they become vampires or werewolves. They wouldn't be the same being they were before the transformation so it's not out of line for them to change who they worship (or stop worshiping a god/goddess all together). Fair enough, but it seems odd that there would be a god devoted to vampires. How could that god possibly sustain enough devotees. It seems much more likely that vampires would tend to worship a god with a portfolio of the dead or necromancy, or perhaps even Orcus
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 08:51 PM	Both the Lich god and the Vampire god are regarded as cosmic accidents, and they don't seem to care if they have worshippers or not, which in a strange way is a good way of explaining the 'why' part. I can see having a single god representing the inner beastial nature of man (or whatever), but not a seperate god for each which there is. Unless of course they are all just seperate aspects of a single god, in which case Malar IS the perfect candidate. He is probably known under more names then any other FR deity, and he has taken the aspects of dozens of lesser ones in FR, if not hundreds. I love Malar, he's like a big unloveable teddy bear. :D He really should get more attention IG; He gets plenty in novels.
XHereticX 06-13-07, 08:55 PM	maybe the gothic creature gods(as I like to call them) were the first members of their kind to appear in the multiverse? well, except Melifleur.
The_Shaman 06-14-07, 09:57 AM	Maybe. I do seem to remember something in CoRuin about Shar being willing give anti-selunite cults of any kind covert help, so she might give the malarites a hand.
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 10:08 AM	I can't see a lich for Malar, unless it was some kinda freaky druid lich. :) And I'm really on the fence about Vampires. They aren't natural, they go against the natural cycle of predator and prey, I can see individual vampires being accepted by Malar but I can't really buy Malar taking vampires wholesale (Because, being a nature deity, Malar should be focused on the "civilization vs nature" fight rather than the "I want more power cause I'm a little cry baby" kick he's been on) I can't really say I like the handling of Malar, I see a much more honorable, less stupid, deity than what's presented. :D I could see Shar aiding evil lycanthropes (in a bid to get them to kill lycanthropes devoted to Selune) but not much more than that.
MarkusTay63 06-14-07, 11:05 AM	I see the various Lycanthrope packs worshipping different deities, depending on their location, their original form, and their new form. So basically, they could worship just about ANY god, and I don't see them really having a deity of their own in the Realms. Thats why I think it most likely that Malar got rid of the various Were-gods ages ago, but that doesn't mean Lycanthropes have to worship him. If a vampire or Lich worshipped an evil god in their mortal form, I really don't see them switching just because their form has changed. A vampire is more likely do to the alignment thing, but a Lich doesn't undergo any sort of mental change so why would they switch? Velsharoon is good enough for our Lich God, but I wouldn't mind the Vampire God just because of its 'coolness' factor. Perhaps the first primordial vampire on Faerūn has ascended? That wold be fun, but I wonder what form it would take? Would it be of one the other four Creator Races? A vampiric Le'Shay would be truly frightening.
Siridar 06-14-07, 05:51 PM	I'm pretty sure in Waterdeep book it mentions Selune turning a girl into a werecat so maybe she can create werecreatures of at least good alignment
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 06:19 PM	I'm pretty sure in Waterdeep book it mentions Selune turning a girl into a werecat so maybe she can create werecreatures of at least good alignment Well yeah. Any god/goddess worth their portfolio can turn someone into a werecreature. It takes quite a bit to turn someone into a true lycanthrope. But I thought we were discussing who created the first ones. That might have been my bad. Too many threads are about "The First" this or that or "The Most Powerful" this or that so I just assumed. :D
XHereticX 06-14-07, 06:56 PM	Strahd Von Zarvoich for Vampire God of Toril:D
souldnce9 06-14-07, 07:26 PM	Well I guess it is possible for a lich, vamp, or werepup to ascend to god hood.
MerrikCale 06-14-07, 08:46 PM	I see the various Lycanthrope packs worshipping different deities, depending on their location, their original form, and their new form. So basically, they could worship just about ANY god, and I don't see them really having a deity of their own in the Realms. Thats why I think it most likely that Malar got rid of the various Were-gods ages ago, but that doesn't mean Lycanthropes have to worship him. If a vampire or Lich worshipped an evil god in their mortal form, I really don't see them switching just because their form has changed. A vampire is more likely do to the alignment thing, but a Lich doesn't undergo any sort of mental change so why would they switch? Velsharoon is good enough for our Lich God, but I wouldn't mind the Vampire God just because of its 'coolness' factor. Perhaps the first primordial vampire on Faerūn has ascended? That wold be fun, but I wonder what form it would take? Would it be of one the other four Creator Races? A vampiric Le'Shay would be truly frightening. Thats basically how I feel too.
The_Shaman 06-18-07, 10:53 AM	IS there anything on Shar or Selune creating werewolves? Back to the OP, a deity has (nearly) unlimited power within its portfolios. Given Selune's link to lycanthropes, and especially the power of the moon domain to destroy them (and the shapechange magic that is affiliated with it), I think she is definitely able to create werecreatures.
MerrikCale 06-18-07, 09:31 PM	Back to the OP, a deity has (nearly) unlimited power within its portfolios. Given Selune's link to lycanthropes, and especially the power of the moon domain to destroy them (and the shapechange magic that is affiliated with it), I think she is definitely able to create werecreatures. I'm sure she could but I doubt she would. She seems to be a deity assisting the inflicted with the "curse". I doubt she would inflict anyone
The_Shaman 06-19-07, 06:27 AM	Probably. Though, given one of the benefits of the Silverstar PrC in Faiths and Pantheons, I could see it as a rare and risky "gift" given to a champion in emergency.
MerrikCale 06-19-07, 09:29 PM	Probably. Though, given one of the benefits of the Silverstar PrC in Faiths and Pantheons, I could see it as a rare and risky "gift" given to a champion in emergency. a logical and interesting plot twist to a campaign for sure
MerrikCale 06-19-07, 09:32 PM	Did you guys even read my post? :confused: we try not to